Against the government in Beijing, for undermining democratic elections.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2014%2F9%2F22%2F1411374076642%2F188db970-a830-4259-b327-ed44f6a0cdf8-460x276.jpeg&hash=b57d45b7348359d6b25b5ffe4ab1c4cef5c4cb83)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2014%2F9%2F22%2F1411374315303%2F0d9548ec-6e6b-4fa3-ad0a-faa09913905a-460x276.jpeg&hash=8f1efd7ccf780b0fd1abb04a6d0949cb17072c77)
http://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-students-boycott-classes-democracy-battle-015926637.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/22/hong-kong-students-democracy-protest
They'll probably block roads in the central business district on 1 October too. And surround the central government complex. 3 metre high defensive works have been completed :yeah:
So, when are the tanks rolling in?
Quote from: Syt on September 22, 2014, 10:28:35 AM
So, when are the tanks rolling in?
If they just want to skip classes and demonstrate on campus, they can do it for as long as they want. If they don't fulfill the attendance requirements and can't graduate, it is their problem (HK doesn't have a real credit system where you can complete your degree in whatever amount of time you want. You generally must graduate within 4 years).
They have already tried blocking roads a few months ago. The police surrounded them, picked them up one-by-one and cleared the area within a few hours. The same thing will happen when they try the same tactic again, likely on 1 October (national day of China). If the scale is too large, the police will use tear gas to reduce the numbers. Correctional services has already prepared facilities to process thousands. In any case, it'll be over in a day or two.
It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace. No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc. This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking. Doesn't stop people from trying though.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 22, 2014, 10:28:35 AM
So, when are the tanks rolling in?
If they just want to skip classes and demonstrate on campus, they can do it for as long as they want. If they don't fulfill the attendance requirements and can't graduate, it is their problem (HK doesn't have a real credit system where you can complete your degree in whatever amount of time you want. You generally must graduate within 4 years).
They have already tried blocking roads a few months ago. The police surrounded them, picked them up one-by-one and cleared the area within a few hours. The same thing will happen when they try the same tactic again, likely on 1 October (national day of China). If the scale is too large, the police will use tear gas to reduce the numbers. Correctional services has already prepared facilities to process thousands. In any case, it'll be over in a day or two.
It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace. No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc. This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking. Doesn't stop people from trying though.
Sounds like an oppressive hellhole.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 22, 2014, 10:28:35 AM
So, when are the tanks rolling in?
It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace. No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc. This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking. Doesn't stop people from trying though.
If so many get arrested that the number of people in that generation without a criminal record is lower than the number of people need for those professions than the standards will be changed.
Mono knows how to deal with such troublemakers WERE LATE FOR DINNER
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fslvqq.gif&hash=ad676ab82fba3b585688e072c3c24d63db127b4a)
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace. No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc. This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking. Doesn't stop people from trying though.
Even to preserve Hong Kong's government itself? Wild.
Anyway what happened to the Mono who likes the Status Quo? You seem delighted to see it get torn down around you.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 10:21:48 AM
3 metre high defensive works have been completed :yeah:
Yeah! My country's way of life and government is arbitrarily being destroyed by an irresponsible and distant tyranny! This will end well.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 22, 2014, 09:03:03 PM
If so many get arrested that the number of people in that generation without a criminal record is lower than the number of people need for those professions than the standards will be changed.
Fat chance of that happening. Every year, the government hires at most a few hundred graduates, out of a student population of like 50-60 thousand. The majority of university graduates don't get jobs that require a university education. Even if half of them are arrested, there are still plenty to choose from. Hell, a few months ago when my team hired a temporary executive assistant, we got 700 qualified applications. Can't care less if we get "only" half.
Quote from: Valmy on September 22, 2014, 09:07:54 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace. No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc. This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking. Doesn't stop people from trying though.
Even to preserve Hong Kong's government itself? Wild.
Anyway what happened to the Mono who likes the Status Quo? You seem delighted to see it get torn down around you.
Huh? These students are trying to disrupt the status quo, hence I don't support them.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 22, 2014, 09:04:53 PM
Mono knows how to deal with such troublemakers WERE LATE FOR DINNER
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fslvqq.gif&hash=ad676ab82fba3b585688e072c3c24d63db127b4a)
UNLIMITED BREADSTICKS AT OLIVE GARDEN
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 09:11:44 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 22, 2014, 09:07:54 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace. No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc. This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking. Doesn't stop people from trying though.
Even to preserve Hong Kong's government itself? Wild.
Anyway what happened to the Mono who likes the Status Quo? You seem delighted to see it get torn down around you.
Huh? These students are trying to disrupt the status quo, hence I don't support them.
The PRC is changing the status quo, the students are protesting that.
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 22, 2014, 09:15:06 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 22, 2014, 09:04:53 PM
Mono knows how to deal with such troublemakers WERE LATE FOR DINNER
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fslvqq.gif&hash=ad676ab82fba3b585688e072c3c24d63db127b4a)
UNLIMITED BREADSTICKS AT OLIVE GARDEN
:w00t:
And I don't even need an additional reason to want to run over bicyclists.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 22, 2014, 09:15:33 PM
The PRC is changing the status quo, the students are protesting that.
No. HK doesn't have full democracy. The students want to change that. The PRC wants things to stay the way they are.
Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2014, 09:35:04 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 22, 2014, 09:15:06 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 22, 2014, 09:04:53 PM
Mono knows how to deal with such troublemakers WERE LATE FOR DINNER
UNLIMITED BREADSTICKS AT OLIVE GARDEN
:w00t:
And I don't even need an additional reason to want to run over bicyclists.
Stay classy Languish. Stay classy.
Yeah, lets cheer as innocent people are killed or maimed. :rolleyes:
Where the hell is that vid from?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 22, 2014, 09:58:41 PM
Where the hell is that vid from?
Brazil, of course.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361769/Sickening-moment-car-ploughs-cyclists-Brazils-Critical-Mass-event-protest-motorists.html
Ah, even better. Freaking Critical Mass. <_<
Quote from: Valmy on September 22, 2014, 09:07:54 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace. No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc. This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking. Doesn't stop people from trying though.
Even to preserve Hong Kong's government itself? Wild.
Anyway what happened to the Mono who likes the Status Quo? You seem delighted to see it get torn down around you.
Mono does not like the Status Quo, he is just a coward. He will support whoever holds the whip. That is why he will never achieve much of the wealth and status he craves - with that attitude he will always be a follower.
Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2014, 10:22:18 PM
Ah, even better. Freaking Critical Mass. <_<
You get that too? My favourite part is that it is on Friday evenings here, when everybody is trying to get out of the city.
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2014, 12:34:28 AM
Mono does not like the Status Quo, he is just a coward. He will support whoever holds the whip. That is why he will never achieve much of the wealth and status he craves - with that attitude he will always be a follower.
It is a bit more complicated than that. Not everybody in HK supports the movement for full democracy. It isn't like we are in economic trouble. We are still one of the wealthiest cities in the world, with a clean and effective government. The real argument is between the haves and the have-nots. The have-nots want a welfare state, which the government will not grant. Their solution is to fight for democracy, remove the government and install someone who will approve the welfare state.
As a civil servant, I already have a job-related pension. A welfare state will not benefit me.
As a civil servant, you're already benefiting from the welfare state.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 23, 2014, 01:18:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2014, 12:34:28 AM
Mono does not like the Status Quo, he is just a coward. He will support whoever holds the whip. That is why he will never achieve much of the wealth and status he craves - with that attitude he will always be a follower.
It is a bit more complicated than that. Not everybody in HK supports the movement for full democracy. It isn't like we are in economic trouble. We are still one of the wealthiest cities in the world, with a clean and effective government. The real argument is between the haves and the have-nots. The have-nots want a welfare state, which the government will not grant. Their solution is to fight for democracy, remove the government and install someone who will approve the welfare state.
As a civil servant, I already have a job-related pension. A welfare state will not benefit me.
Yes it would and it's obvious why. Think back on who first instituted a welfare system, the Kaiser Reich. Were the autocratic leaders of that society actually concerned with the well being of the have nots? Of course not, however they realized that without a welfare system society would become unstable and there would be considerable chance for a violent overthrow of the current system. By opposing a welfare state you make it all the more likely that violence will break out and you will end up out of a job or up against wall.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 23, 2014, 01:22:07 AM
As a civil servant, you're already benefiting from the welfare state.
HK is already a welfare state, with one exception. We already have free and compulsory education, free public health care, and public housing for half the population. The only thing lacking is retirement benefits. Traditionally, children provide for their parents in Chinese societies. But as the birthrate declines in recent decades, that is no longer practical. The government has steadfastly refused to provide a public pension. To do so means raising the income tax by a few percentage points.
I don't think I can have respect for someone who believes that the only reason to have a democracy is to have a welfare state.
I have seen the same ideas from American conservatives and libertarians.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 23, 2014, 01:23:08 AM
Yes it would and it's obvious why. Think back on who first instituted a welfare system, the Kaiser Reich. Were the autocratic leaders of that society actually concerned with the well being of the have nots? Of course not, however they realized that without a welfare system society would become unstable and there would be considerable chance for a violent overthrow of the current system. By opposing a welfare state you make it all the more likely that violence will break out and you will end up out of a job or up against wall.
I am a have-not on the side of the haves. So I win either way :contract:
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2014, 02:44:26 AM
I don't think I can have respect for someone who believes that the only reason to have a democracy is to have a welfare state.
So you are no longer on the left, then?
Quote from: Monoriu on September 23, 2014, 04:04:04 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 23, 2014, 01:23:08 AM
Yes it would and it's obvious why. Think back on who first instituted a welfare system, the Kaiser Reich. Were the autocratic leaders of that society actually concerned with the well being of the have nots? Of course not, however they realized that without a welfare system society would become unstable and there would be considerable chance for a violent overthrow of the current system. By opposing a welfare state you make it all the more likely that violence will break out and you will end up out of a job or up against wall.
I am a have-not on the side of the haves. So I win either way :contract:
Well played!
Quote from: Tamas on September 23, 2014, 04:59:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2014, 02:44:26 AM
I don't think I can have respect for someone who believes that the only reason to have a democracy is to have a welfare state.
So you are no longer on the left, then?
Elaborate.
Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2014, 12:35:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2014, 10:22:18 PM
Ah, even better. Freaking Critical Mass. <_<
You get that too? My favourite part is that it is on Friday evenings here, when everybody is trying to get out of the city.
Well I haven't seen in here in New York but we definitely had it in SF. I was always glad that it took place after I got home as I would not have been a happy car commuter if I couldn't get home as they were blocking my parking area (went right past my apt building).
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 23, 2014, 08:01:08 AM
Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.
Even assuming I want a welfare state, I don't see how this parses with his comment.
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 23, 2014, 08:01:08 AM
Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.
Is he wrong?
Quote from: derspiess on September 23, 2014, 09:54:40 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 23, 2014, 08:01:08 AM
Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.
Is he wrong?
Yeah, how can you be a leftie without wanting a welfare state? Unless you're going for the whole collectivization shebang, it's the centerpiece of redistribution politics.
Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?
Quote from: frunk on September 23, 2014, 10:08:48 AM
Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?
Singapore?
Quote from: alfred russel on September 23, 2014, 10:19:47 AM
Quote from: frunk on September 23, 2014, 10:08:48 AM
Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?
Singapore?
I think Singapore goes further than HK on public housing and possibly retirement benefits. It is an example of a successful state that isn't a real democracy though.
Quote from: alfred russel on September 23, 2014, 10:19:47 AM
Quote from: frunk on September 23, 2014, 10:08:48 AM
Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?
Singapore?
According to Wiki:
QuoteThe government has rejected the idea of a generous welfare system, stating that each generation must earn and save enough for its entire life cycle. There are, however, numerous means-tested assistance programs provided by the Ministry of Community Development, Youth and Sports. Some of the programs include providing between SGD 400 to SGD 1000 per month to needy households, free medical care at government hospitals, money for children's school fees, rental of studio apartments and training grants for courses.
Cheese?
Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2014, 08:57:49 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 22, 2014, 10:28:35 AM
So, when are the tanks rolling in?
If they just want to skip classes and demonstrate on campus, they can do it for as long as they want. If they don't fulfill the attendance requirements and can't graduate, it is their problem (HK doesn't have a real credit system where you can complete your degree in whatever amount of time you want. You generally must graduate within 4 years).
They have already tried blocking roads a few months ago. The police surrounded them, picked them up one-by-one and cleared the area within a few hours. The same thing will happen when they try the same tactic again, likely on 1 October (national day of China). If the scale is too large, the police will use tear gas to reduce the numbers. Correctional services has already prepared facilities to process thousands. In any case, it'll be over in a day or two.
It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace. No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc. This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking. Doesn't stop people from trying though.
Sounds like an oppressive hellhole.
Sounds like an opportunity for the USA - offer citizenship for any HK student with a good academic record who is subject to criminal sanction in HK for engaging in political protest.
Skim off the best and brightest.
Yeah, but only if they can float in on an Edsel from Cuba.
I thought the Edsel came out after the embargo started. :nerd:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 23, 2014, 01:02:21 PM
I thought the Edsel came out after the embargo started. :nerd:
Nope.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 23, 2014, 01:26:08 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 23, 2014, 01:22:07 AM
As a civil servant, you're already benefiting from the welfare state.
HK is already a welfare state, with one exception. We already have free and compulsory education, free public health care, and public housing for half the population. The only thing lacking is retirement benefits. Traditionally, children provide for their parents in Chinese societies. But as the birthrate declines in recent decades, that is no longer practical. The government has steadfastly refused to provide a public pension. To do so means raising the income tax by a few percentage points.
Is it a cultural thing? I mean is there a stigma that you have to care for your parents?
We used to have that but I think it's mostly gone now. Boomers shredded most of the old responsibilities.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 23, 2014, 05:37:39 PM
Is it a cultural thing? I mean is there a stigma that you have to care for your parents?
We used to have that but I think it's mostly gone now. Boomers shredded most of the old responsibilities.
Yeah, it is very strong. My wife still pays monthly support for her parents today, even though her parents don't really need such support.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2014, 12:54:51 PM
Sounds like an opportunity for the USA - offer citizenship for any HK student with a good academic record who is subject to criminal sanction in HK for engaging in political protest.
Skim off the best and brightest.
The best and brightest probably come from better off families, who likely already have foreign citizenship of some sort.
It is now all but certain that the demonstrators will take the plunge on 1 October (a public holiday in HK) and occupy Central. They will join a "feast for democracy" on that day, and participants are reminded to bring enough supplies. They speak in code words for fear of being arrested beforehand. The police have vowed to immediately arrest anybody and everybody who do so.
Since I work in the same complex as all cabinet ministers, I think I also need to consider bringing some bottled water and biscuits just in case the police lock down the place in street battles with thousands of demonstrators :ph34r:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 23, 2014, 01:02:21 PM
I thought the Edsel came out after the embargo started. :nerd:
Jesus Henry Christ, Yi.
Sheesh Monoriou, you're going to wind up in the midst of it all.
There is no denying that the people are angry. It is like a child asking his parents to take him to a vacation. The parents have stalled for 30 years and kept saying that they will do so if his grades are good, they'll do it later, etc. Now that the time to fulfill the promise has finally arrived, the parents now say that vacation means going camping in the park 2 blocks away. Essentially it is like putting the foot down and finally admitting that there will be no vacation after all these decades.
Quote from: KRonn on September 23, 2014, 09:19:56 PM
Sheesh Monoriou, you're going to wind up in the midst of it all.
Pretty cool. He should have a WKAP feed going.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 24, 2014, 07:11:37 AM
Quote from: KRonn on September 23, 2014, 09:19:56 PM
Sheesh Monoriou, you're going to wind up in the midst of it all.
Pretty cool. He should have a WKAP feed going.
And get labelled as a political dissident? :angry:
Quote from: celedhring on September 23, 2014, 09:58:08 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 23, 2014, 09:54:40 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 23, 2014, 08:01:08 AM
Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.
Is he wrong?
Yeah, how can you be a leftie without wanting a welfare state? Unless you're going for the whole collectivization shebang, it's the centerpiece of redistribution politics.
His comment was still illogical. The fact that I don't think the only reason to have democracy is to have a welfare state does not mean that I don't want a welfare state - I just find democracy much more useful and beneficial than just that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ3fs3p2R2g
And so it begins. Striking students attacked the main government building last night, and riot police were mobilised to defend the place. Over 70 intruders, mostly students, have been arrested. About a thousand people were still in the vicinity, including the Catholic Cardinal. Police have warned that this is an illegal gathering and they will take action soon.
Why are people surprised that they are pepper sprayed when they enter government premises illegally?
In other news I have refuelled the car and replenished our home's supplies, including 60 bottles of water.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 27, 2014, 07:18:59 AM
Why are people surprised that they are pepper sprayed when they enter government premises illegally?
Were they surprised? Did they say, "hey, we're surprised!"?
QuoteIn other news I have refuelled the car and replenished our home's supplies, including 60 bottles of water.
If you plan on not leaving Fortress Jiangxi, why refuel the car? Think of all the extra water you could've bought.
He needs the car fueled so he can get to the airport.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 27, 2014, 08:04:02 AM
He needs the car fueled so he can get to the airport.
And do what? He can't get work anywhere else.
The #1 student leader has already been arrested, handcuffed and dragged away in front of cameras, for inciting violence.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 27, 2014, 08:18:13 AM
The #1 student leader has already been arrested, handcuffed and dragged away in front of cameras, for inciting violence.
Yeah, that never causes a domino effect and *incites* more violence. Nope.
The government HQ has been cleared of intruders. A few thousand people are still camped outside. The riot police have blocked all the footbridges leading to the area, and evicted people there with pepper spray and advancing shield walls. But there are still other ways to get there. So instead of "occupy central on 1 Oct", it has become "occupy the road outside the government HQ on 28 Sep". I guess the police strategy is to wear them down, while preventing more people from joining. The police can change shifts; the suckers will need food, water and toilets soon.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411830766_0e91_zpsb26d59c1.jpg&hash=a34dec0d359bc69ef5faa26945bfe6d786b23290) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411830766_0e91_zpsb26d59c1.jpg.html)
When riot police earlier evicted people from government HQ.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411825441521SL4_9ABBD2F6CB26774E1ABC4BAF7D6F2C39_zps6f63a103.jpg&hash=bbfdda5746411d77a3186eabb218d0cb1b54b8d7) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411825441521SL4_9ABBD2F6CB26774E1ABC4BAF7D6F2C39_zps6f63a103.jpg.html)
Police have blocked the main footbridges that link the train station with the government HQs to prevent more people from joining the protests. I walk past these every day.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411824937_a291_zps2613bbda.jpg&hash=0627d1f91f053f3879e67f2cc91bf117c10b29c4) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411824937_a291_zps2613bbda.jpg.html)
The people camped outside the government HQs. It isn't raining; the umbrellas are there for the pepper spray and possibly tear gas later.
Oh and, you need to apply for a permit for a public gathering in HK. So technically, all of them have broken the law already and can be legally arrested.
For someone who is not a member of the Party, you certainly are a Party man.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2014, 11:48:21 AM
For someone who is not a member of the Party, you certainly are a Party man.
HK is divided. Half the population wants to fight Beijing for more democracy. The other half just wants to take whatever Beijing gives us.
And then there's you.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2014, 11:56:22 AM
And then there's you.
I am just a pleb. My opinion doesn't matter.
OK Maude.
Quote from: garbon on September 27, 2014, 08:11:41 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 27, 2014, 08:04:02 AM
He needs the car fueled so he can get to the airport.
And do what? He can't get work anywhere else.
Ride out the trouble sipping tea in Thailand. He can afford it.
I hop Mono put in a supply of Toilet Paper.
It is official now. The Occupy Central guys have announced that they have advanced the occupy movement to, well, yesterday.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F28la1p10_zpsac862b5a.jpg&hash=57d99f261ffeaef0f54363368a4a668f617a0f92) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/28la1p10_zpsac862b5a.jpg.html)
They look like ants.
Do it, Mono. Go out in the street. Get swept up in history. DO IT DO IT DO IT
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2014, 06:38:56 PM
Do it, Mono. Go out in the street. Get swept up in history. DO IT DO IT DO IT
I am their enemy :lol: I am one of the guys who are supposed to work inside the building they try to take over. I am one of the guys they want to screw over by building a welfare state. They want to tax me more.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 27, 2014, 06:43:55 PM
I am one of the guys who are supposed to work inside the building they try to take over.
Then go let them in the back way; be a sleeper agent. Or, in your language, a sreeper agent.
QuoteI am one of the guys they want to screw over by building a welfare state. They want to tax me more.
Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society, the price we pay for civilization. Oliver Wendell Holmes said that. Go bring civilization back to China. Or, in your language, civirization.
Really interesting situation.
Also Mono is basically Tamas, in a Tamas dream state :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 27, 2014, 06:58:34 PM
Really interesting situation.
Also Mono is basically Tamas, in a Tamas dream state :lol:
As I said, our welfare state isn't small. We already have free and universal healthcare. We are basically a London or New York which doesn't need to transfer payments to the rest of the country, and doesn't need to pay for defence. The sad truth is that our public coffers are overflowing. I am not even sure how many zeros there are in the government cash reserves any more.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2014, 06:49:51 PM
Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society, the price we pay for civilization. Oliver Wendell Holmes said that. Go bring civilization back to China. Or, in your language, civirization.
I think you have it backwards. Chinese have trouble pronouncing the "r" sound :P
Quote from: Monoriu on September 27, 2014, 10:52:17 PM
I think you have it backwards. Chinese have trouble pronouncing the "r" sound :P
Many Americans, CdM included, can only manage the concept of one generic bad Asian accent and it's derived from their 1940s and 1980s stereotypes of the Japanese.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 27, 2014, 06:58:34 PM
Really interesting situation.
Also Mono is basically Tamas, in a Tamas dream state :lol:
I've noticed it's not really that rare a trait on this board. I created a poll on the subject.
Quote from: Jacob on September 27, 2014, 11:18:11 PM
Many Americans, CdM included, can only manage the concept of one generic bad Asian accent and it's derived from their 1940s and 1980s stereotypes of the Japanese.
Bet he's got big teeth and round glasses too.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2014, 11:49:35 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 27, 2014, 11:18:11 PM
Many Americans, CdM included, can only manage the concept of one generic bad Asian accent and it's derived from their 1940s and 1980s stereotypes of the Japanese.
Bet he's got big teeth and round glasses too.
I love that Jacob's leftist principles compelled him to comment on your racist joke, but not on Mono essentially calling on a police state to crack down on a student protest. But that is why the pony-tail-wearing, latte-sipping left is such a joke. :P
The protesters tried to get audio equipment into the protest area. They thought getting 3 legislative council members to escort the caravan would do the trick. The police just arrested everybody, including the MPs, for obstructing public officers (and aiding an illegal activity). The police still control the footbridges, which are vital, because they overlook the protest area.
I just drove past the area. The police have set up a cordon area around government HQs. People can only get out, not in. Large numbers of people have gathered outside.
I am wondering how I am going to go to work tomorrow because my desk is in the middle of the police cordon. Somehow I don't think my staff ID will convince the police shield walls to let me pass. Even though I am on their side :(
Mono, the glee with which you describe what essentially are authoritarian, police state methods that would be illegal in any normal country, makes me want to punch you. Just so you know if I do that, when we meet.
Quote from: Martinus on September 28, 2014, 02:35:19 AM
Mono, the glee with which you describe what essentially are authoritarian, police state methods that would be illegal in any normal country, makes me want to punch you. Just so you know if I do that, when we meet.
And even so, if given a second chance, I will still vote yes if there is a poll on whether we should let Martinus back in :sleep:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411883421_f3a9_zps3fda5627.jpg&hash=9e5ff92e2b6fe6f1779029c21666b12d9b1b239d) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411883421_f3a9_zps3fda5627.jpg.html)
I'm not sure the methods being employed are out of line with what any first world country would employ to negate an unpermitted demonstration intended to block access to a public building.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 28, 2014, 02:57:36 AM
I'm not sure the methods being employed are out of line with what any first world country would employ to negate an unpermitted demonstration intended to block access to a public building.
Yeah, American cops wouldn't be holding hands. They'd be in full battle rattle.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thefirearmblog.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F08%2F77037115_ferguson.jpg&hash=3bd09dce803c0b45fc20e3157292d4124214d01c)
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 02:43:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 28, 2014, 02:35:19 AM
Mono, the glee with which you describe what essentially are authoritarian, police state methods that would be illegal in any normal country, makes me want to punch you. Just so you know if I do that, when we meet.
And even so, if given a second chance, I will still vote yes if there is a poll on whether we should let Martinus back in :sleep:
:hug:
The fucks have now blocked the largest highway on HK island.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411892322317SL4_508F35C00394DE7C8C81A6961FC6A7BC_zps94ca15fc.jpg&hash=87f6304865f14de078b56fa6113dcbcdd2a75774) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411892322317SL4_508F35C00394DE7C8C81A6961FC6A7BC_zps94ca15fc.jpg.html)
If I got home an hour later, I would have been caught in this as well.
This is major Mono to crowd control...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk)
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 02:31:35 AM
I am wondering how I am going to go to work tomorrow because my desk is in the middle of the police cordon. Somehow I don't think my staff ID will convince the police shield walls to let me pass. Even though I am on their side :(
"Police didn't allow me to go to work."
That's just about the best thing that can happen to the normal salaried employee, right? A free day off. :)
Quote from: Zanza on September 28, 2014, 03:44:01 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 02:31:35 AM
I am wondering how I am going to go to work tomorrow because my desk is in the middle of the police cordon. Somehow I don't think my staff ID will convince the police shield walls to let me pass. Even though I am on their side :(
"Police didn't allow me to go to work."
That's just about the best thing that can happen to the normal salaried employee, right? A free day off. :)
I really don't think my bosses will accept that excuse, seriously.
There are now like 3x as many people there as in the photo.
I think I need to pack lunch for tomorrow's work day. I don't think any canteen in the area will open for business.
How do they get to work?
Quote from: Zanza on September 28, 2014, 03:48:13 AM
How do they get to work?
My boss is in Beijing, actually, so technically I have no supervisor in this week. I think the police will close off the nearest train station too. So I will need to get off 2 stations away and walk there, then show my staff card to try to get in, with my packed lunch.
Mono to unwillingly become a symbol of the fight for freedom when he is brutally attacked by police while trying to sneak into an official building with a suspicious package he claims to be "lunch".
Mono with lunch bag:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fd%2Fd8%2FTianasquare.jpg&hash=bd96713378dc7cb63c6181dce78ff3e382e50a41)
Mono on his way to work on Monday.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchinadigitaltimes.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F06%2F89-63_tank_man_-_web.jpg&hash=41761f3d33ace79ca36d4c27b06f43ec8d522098)
Oops, Zanza'd!
Protesters charged toward the police cordon lines in an effort to join the main group outside government HQs. The problem is that they have googles and umbrellas, so riot police need to grab their umbrellas and googles before spraying them in the face. The police have now used heavy duty pepper spray with tanks on their backs. I've also seed officers use batons.
Goggles. The word is goggles.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 03:50:34 AM
My boss is in Beijing, actually,
You keep claiming you're not a big honcho, yet you're the top guy in the office. Harumph. :P
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 28, 2014, 04:21:15 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 03:50:34 AM
My boss is in Beijing, actually,
You keep claiming you're not a big honcho, yet you're the top guy in the office. Harumph. :P
Don't see how you can reach that conclusion :huh:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411894430520SL4_DFA215C57143DBDF8D917C35978AAFA8_zpsc18c248d.jpg&hash=30dda37af10ead842318b79e4e35712588fe3d1b) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411894430520SL4_DFA215C57143DBDF8D917C35978AAFA8_zpsc18c248d.jpg.html)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411895603003SL4_47E77CE32F60FDD40E2995AC691F6574_zps1029fd70.jpg&hash=5435baabef45e5af30585cce42c7cead4331635d) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411895603003SL4_47E77CE32F60FDD40E2995AC691F6574_zps1029fd70.jpg.html)
It's not a proper riot until molotov cocktails fly and water cannons are used. :P
Quote from: Syt on September 28, 2014, 04:15:25 AM
Goggles. The word is goggles.
This being China, I bet the government will take away their googles too.
I can't help but feel the police tactics are probably going to make this escalate.
The whole thing is pointless. Unhappy with Beijing's decision? Take it to Beijing then, if they have the guts. Let's see what'll happen if they do these things in Tian An Men.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 05:07:56 AM
The whole thing is pointless. Unhappy with Beijing's decision? Take it to Beijing then, if they have the guts. Let's see what'll happen if they do these things in Tian An Men.
That's why we kicked off our Revolution by picketing Parliament. :yes:
Tear gas used. Police have put up warning signs that they need to leave the highway immediately, or they may use live rounds.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 28, 2014, 05:00:56 AM
I can't help but feel the police tactics are probably going to make this escalate.
Do they want to face HK riot police? Or do they prefer PLA tanks? That is the question.
4 rounds of tear gas fired. Police numbers are increasing.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411899148312_71C9F583700F637C0378FCE21F199781_zps54742eb6.jpg&hash=16b16233fc223f3a9b9276e97d4a23343805e3d8) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411899148312_71C9F583700F637C0378FCE21F199781_zps54742eb6.jpg.html)
Disburse or We Fire
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 05:52:06 AM
Disburse or We Fire
Typically mono, thinking of money in a moment of crisis.
Mono's joke would work better if it were the protesters with the guns. :P
Police are advancing. Squads of police armed with chemical warfare suits and rifles advanced into the middle of the crowds, then fired tear gas in all directions. First highway half cleared.
KENT SENT ME
The rioters are back. Standoff with police now.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 05:20:40 AM
Tear gas used. Police have put up warning signs that they need to leave the highway immediately, or they may use live rounds.
Yeah, that happens, your mini-welfare state will be gone. It's hard to support a welfare state when every other country suddenly refuses to do business with you.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on September 28, 2014, 07:26:20 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 05:20:40 AM
Tear gas used. Police have put up warning signs that they need to leave the highway immediately, or they may use live rounds.
Yeah, that happens, your mini-welfare state will be gone. It's hard to support a welfare state when every other country suddenly refuses to do business with you.
They still do business with China after Tian An Men.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 07:31:50 AM
They still do business with China after Tian An Men.
Have you seen the US/China balance of trade lately? It's taking forever to dig ourselves out of that hole, but it's still happening. The main issue is that China owns so much of the US' massive debt balance.
The general sentiment in the US (and possibly several other countries as well) is that doing business with China is a necessary evil, and one to which new alternatives are being found every day.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on September 28, 2014, 07:36:09 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 07:31:50 AM
They still do business with China after Tian An Men.
Have you seen the US/China balance of trade lately? It's taking forever to dig ourselves out of that hole, but it's still happening. The main issue is that China owns so much of the US' massive debt balance.
The general sentiment in the US (and possibly several other countries as well) is that doing business with China is a necessary evil, and one to which new alternatives are being found every day.
I just don't see how the rest of the world can stop trading with China.
Turns out that the arrested university level student leader is a minor. His 18th birthday is next month. They used this as a reason to apply for his release, and the courts approved.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411902819_aa96_zps2529e39c.jpg&hash=3783cca0b6239639e79a557fb9d622ca740231a5) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411902819_aa96_zps2529e39c.jpg.html)
Still have no idea how to go to work tomorrow. I hope they arrange police buses for staff.
Where are the water cannons and armoured cars that I as taxpayer helped pay for?
Quote from: DontSayBanana on September 28, 2014, 07:36:09 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 07:31:50 AM
They still do business with China after Tian An Men.
Have you seen the US/China balance of trade lately? It's taking forever to dig ourselves out of that hole, but it's still happening. The main issue is that China owns so much of the US' massive debt balance.
The general sentiment in the US (and possibly several other countries as well) is that doing business with China is a necessary evil, and one to which new alternatives are being found every day.
US business with China only really took off in the decade after the Tiananmen Square Massacre.
Police reinforcements from all over HK, in full riot gear, are arriving by underground train. Thousands of them. HK has 30,000 policemen. They will likely clear the roads tonight.
I'm not sure this is a wholly edifying spectacle, not the demonstration, but mono's cheer-leading for the forces of oppression.
Almost like he's enjoying it?
Or is it more a case of I don't have nor want freedom, so I hope others in my society fail in their attempt to gain some?
Quote from: mongers on September 28, 2014, 08:27:34 AM
I'm not sure this is a wholly edifying spectacle, not the demonstration, but mono's cheer-leading for the forces of oppression.
Almost like he's enjoying it?
Or is it more a case of I don't have nor want freedom, so I hope others in my society fail in their attempt to gain some?
The police are the forces of good and order :bowler:
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 08:29:28 AM
Quote from: mongers on September 28, 2014, 08:27:34 AM
I'm not sure this is a wholly edifying spectacle, not the demonstration, but mono's cheer-leading for the forces of oppression.
Almost like he's enjoying it?
Or is it more a case of I don't have nor want freedom, so I hope others in my society fail in their attempt to gain some?
The police are the forces of good and order :bowler:
I think you should be banned from using that smiley as you clearly don't understand or appreciate much about what it represents. <_<
Quote from: mongers on September 28, 2014, 08:32:00 AM
I think you should be banned from using that smiley as you clearly don't understand or appreciate much about what it represents. <_<
:bowler: :bowler: :bowler:
It has spread to different parts of HK, as rioters tried to stop police reinforcements from going to government HQs. Street battles everywhere.
I think HK will never be the same. The have-nots will now walk the path of open disobedience.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:06:29 AM
I think HK will never be the same. The have-nots will now walk the path of open disobedience.
:o
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411904552660SL4_A83483D9A88CC87765B3E9F514DF5AF0_zps0816bd51.jpg&hash=0a14b8113560c40478ea06bfe313e806f5161f46) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411904552660SL4_A83483D9A88CC87765B3E9F514DF5AF0_zps0816bd51.jpg.html)
My workplace, now defended by riot police.
Quote from: Savonarola on September 28, 2014, 09:10:43 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:06:29 AM
I think HK will never be the same. The have-nots will now walk the path of open disobedience.
:o
HK's entire reason for existance is a closed China. If China opens up and trades with the rest of the world, why is there a need for a middleman? HK's best days are long gone. Our factories are gone; our ports are no longer needed. Really, the only thing left is finance. But finance tends to make a very small number of people very rich. The rest are left with low level retail, cleansing, and security jobs that can't be outsourced to China, or can't be automated. Young people no longer have hope for the future. They realise that their only hope is to build a welfare state for the losers, and they want more government participation in the economy so that corporations will create more jobs for them. Since they can't replace the government that has refused their request by votes, they now try to unseat the government through civil disobedience.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:11:32 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.archinect.net%2Fimages%2F514x%2Fkh%2Fkhv5xw4k3cqb8bn5.jpg&hash=f5ea0bee94e9c4f0b6e1ced61e4ef1d873eddb7c)
My workplace, now defended by riot police.
I don't get the reference.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411912200543SL4_B2B288FAA5E4266DF0E3648BFF73EFE1_zps4b0a3434.jpg&hash=1733b35748e6aaccd63c1dccefddc06e0afe44a5) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411912200543SL4_B2B288FAA5E4266DF0E3648BFF73EFE1_zps4b0a3434.jpg.html)
Police reinforcements arriving by train.
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:22:20 AM
I don't get the reference.
1984
It isn't like I live in North Korea. I can go to any website I want. The courts are truly independent. I have all the freedoms I want. I don't have democracy, true. But I don't really mind, because the people who want it only want to rob me.
The student unions have asked students to withdraw if police fire live rounds, or use sonic cannon (hint, hint) :contract:
Not sure if they really have sonic cannons though. The police plan to disperse the crowd through tear gas alone has failed. The crowd disperses for a while, then gathers again when the gas dissipates. Police intention to clear the roads as soon as possible is clear, so the only problem is to find a way. Since tear gas alone doesn't work, my guess is that they will wait for reinforcements. When the numbers look good, they'll fire an intense round of tear gas, then thousands of riot police will charge into the crowd with shields and batons to prevent them from gathering again. Tomorrow is a Monday, which is important because most people have full time jobs.
Rumour is that the police have fired rubber rounds.
I know what it means, but every time I read "live rounds", I just can't stop thinking on...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnew3.fjcdn.com%2Fcomments%2FReminds%2Bme%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bcowboy%2Bbullets%2Bfrom%2Bwho%2Bframed%2Broger%2Brabbit%2B_14dcfd4178f92c91c13eb5e6195aaa7b.jpg&hash=eaa2d808f738d62a6cbd42a22101e525ce4e395d)
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:22:20 AM
I don't get the reference.
:lol: Perhaps one day someone will sneak in a translation. Until then, maybe look into local samizdat networks?
In defence of Mono, I have read the book and I'd have not got that building is meant to be the Ministry of Truth.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:29:41 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:22:20 AM
I don't get the reference.
1984
It isn't like I live in North Korea. I can go to any website I want. The courts are truly independent. I have all the freedoms I want. I don't have democracy, true. But I don't really mind, because the people who want it only want to rob me.
If anything it's you whose helping to deprive or rob them of their freedom.
Quote from: Martinus on September 28, 2014, 02:13:26 AM
I love that Jacob's leftist principles compelled him to comment on your racist joke, but not on Mono essentially calling on a police state to crack down on a student protest. But that is why the pony-tail-wearing, latte-sipping left is such a joke. :P
Different people on this board have different subjects that are worth engaging them on, and other subjects that are tedious and best avoided.
Mono on politics = tedious.
You on pretty much anything = tedious.
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 10:04:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 28, 2014, 02:13:26 AM
I love that Jacob's leftist principles compelled him to comment on your racist joke, but not on Mono essentially calling on a police state to crack down on a student protest. But that is why the pony-tail-wearing, latte-sipping left is such a joke. :P
Different people on this board have different subjects that are worth engaging them on, and other subjects that are tedious and best avoided.
Mono on politics = tedious.
You on pretty much anything = tedious.
Am I : tedious? :cry:
Quote from: Zanza on September 28, 2014, 03:58:56 AM
Mono with lunch bag:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fd%2Fd8%2FTianasquare.jpg&hash=bd96713378dc7cb63c6181dce78ff3e382e50a41)
I don't think Mono is going to exhibit that kind of moral and physical courage.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 07:51:09 AM
Turns out that the arrested university level student leader is a minor. His 18th birthday is next month. They used this as a reason to apply for his release, and the courts approved.
:bowler:
The student union has given up. They call on students to leave for fear of their safety.
Riots have happened on the Kowloon side, and in Central as well. Tear gas everywhere, including inside train stations. Police reinforcements are advancing on the crowds outside government HQs from Central side.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:20:19 AM
HK's entire reason for existance is a closed China. If China opens up and trades with the rest of the world, why is there a need for a middleman? HK's best days are long gone. Our factories are gone; our ports are no longer needed. Really, the only thing left is finance. But finance tends to make a very small number of people very rich. The rest are left with low level retail, cleansing, and security jobs that can't be outsourced to China, or can't be automated. Young people no longer have hope for the future. They realise that their only hope is to build a welfare state for the losers, and they want more government participation in the economy so that corporations will create more jobs for them. Since they can't replace the government that has refused their request by votes, they now try to unseat the government through civil disobedience.
... and you are unsympathetic to this? You think they should just give up hope instead?
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 10:12:54 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:20:19 AM
HK's entire reason for existance is a closed China. If China opens up and trades with the rest of the world, why is there a need for a middleman? HK's best days are long gone. Our factories are gone; our ports are no longer needed. Really, the only thing left is finance. But finance tends to make a very small number of people very rich. The rest are left with low level retail, cleansing, and security jobs that can't be outsourced to China, or can't be automated. Young people no longer have hope for the future. They realise that their only hope is to build a welfare state for the losers, and they want more government participation in the economy so that corporations will create more jobs for them. Since they can't replace the government that has refused their request by votes, they now try to unseat the government through civil disobedience.
... and you are unsympathetic to this? You think they should just give up hope instead?
I think they should do better in their exams, and join the finance sector :contract:
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 10:06:58 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 28, 2014, 03:58:56 AM
Mono with lunch bag:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fd%2Fd8%2FTianasquare.jpg&hash=bd96713378dc7cb63c6181dce78ff3e382e50a41)
I don't think Mono is going to exhibit that kind of moral and physical courage.
Yeah, it's more likely that he drives the tank. And doesn't stop.
I was in my corporation's office in Hong Kong last year and they seemed to lack qualified IT personnel. Other than that I would agree with Mono's description of Hong Kong's best days having gone by. It was much more pronounced in Macau though.
Quote from: Zanza on September 28, 2014, 10:29:10 AM
I was in my corporation's office in Hong Kong last year and they seemed to lack qualified IT personnel. Other than that I would agree with Mono's description of Hong Kong's best days having gone by. It was much more pronounced in Macau though.
Yeah, we have huge problem recruiting programmers.
Central, HK:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1411914828726_45A8FAEE1747B51D1D55395FA11295D2_zps04fed378.jpg&hash=ba1f92821cdce5ea2f5452c9fb6c3b27312f3c0b) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1411914828726_45A8FAEE1747B51D1D55395FA11295D2_zps04fed378.jpg.html)
Tear gas exploding in Central.
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The Cardinal gives up. He asks people to leave the streets, not to give their lives.
Hospitals have asked the people to avoid hospitals for non-urgent treatment since they need to give priority for the wounded.
The fucks have now blocked roads in Causeway Bay, our shopping district. And they stand at a petroleum station right outside police HQs, daring the police to fire tear gas at them. They really want to take away our peaceful society, eh. I hate them, honestly.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:20:19 AM
HK's best days are long gone. Our factories are gone; our ports are no longer needed. Really, the only thing left is finance. But finance tends to make a very small number of people very rich. The rest are left with low level retail, cleansing, and security jobs that can't be outsourced to China, or can't be automated. Young people no longer have hope for the future.
Kinda makes you wonder why Yi hasn't emigrated already, it's his kind of party.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 07:51:09 AM
Turns out that the arrested university level student leader is a minor. His 18th birthday is next month.
A fucking freshman. You mean to tell me there isn't a single upperclassman that has at least got his Gen Eds out of the way first to lead this shit?
Then again, they're taking a playbook straight from drug dealers; let the minors sling and carry your shit--they get ROR'd to their parents, and are back doing it the next day. Velly sneaky. :ph34r:
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:31:53 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 28, 2014, 10:29:10 AM
I was in my corporation's office in Hong Kong last year and they seemed to lack qualified IT personnel. Other than that I would agree with Mono's description of Hong Kong's best days having gone by. It was much more pronounced in Macau though.
Yeah, we have huge problem recruiting programmers.
That's because they're all working for the PLA.
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 10:06:48 AM
Am I : tedious? :cry:
If by "tedious" you mean "cunt", then yeah.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:29:41 AM
It isn't like I live in North Korea. I can go to any website I want. The courts are truly independent. I have all the freedoms I want. I don't have democracy, true. But I don't really mind, because the people who want it only want to rob me.
For now. But keep doing nothing, Mono, and see where it leads.
And if you think a bunch of students are out to rob you, you keep doing nothing and see what the CCP and the PLA takes from you in the end.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 10:12:54 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:20:19 AM
HK's entire reason for existance is a closed China. If China opens up and trades with the rest of the world, why is there a need for a middleman? HK's best days are long gone. Our factories are gone; our ports are no longer needed. Really, the only thing left is finance. But finance tends to make a very small number of people very rich. The rest are left with low level retail, cleansing, and security jobs that can't be outsourced to China, or can't be automated. Young people no longer have hope for the future. They realise that their only hope is to build a welfare state for the losers, and they want more government participation in the economy so that corporations will create more jobs for them. Since they can't replace the government that has refused their request by votes, they now try to unseat the government through civil disobedience.
... and you are unsympathetic to this? You think they should just give up hope instead?
I think they should do better in their exams, and join the finance sector :contract:
I thought of all things, you would at least be good at maths, Mono. :hmm:
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
I think they should do better in their exams, and join the finance sector :contract:
You yourself said that only a tiny minority of people will be able to join the finance sector. So where does that leave the people who cannot?
They could consider a career as riot police.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 28, 2014, 11:17:06 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:29:41 AM
It isn't like I live in North Korea. I can go to any website I want. The courts are truly independent. I have all the freedoms I want. I don't have democracy, true. But I don't really mind, because the people who want it only want to rob me.
For now. But keep doing nothing, Mono, and see where it leads.
And if you think a bunch of students are out to rob you, you keep doing nothing and see what the CCP and the PLA takes from you in the end.
They can take whatever they want, but Mono's smalltime, so they won't be interested in him.
The real danger is ten years from now when huge cohorts of unemployable people kick in his door and proceed to rob and murder him.
On the day he retires too :weep:
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 01:30:11 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
I think they should do better in their exams, and join the finance sector :contract:
You yourself said that only a tiny minority of people will be able to join the finance sector. So where does that leave the people who cannot?
That's the point. There is a set number of people who can get the good jobs. The exams are graded on a curve. Only a certain percentage will win no matter what. If one person does better, another will automatically become worse by default. :contract:
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2014, 02:03:20 PM
The real danger is ten years from now when huge cohorts of unemployable people kick in his door and proceed to rob and murder him.
HK really doesn't have an unemployment problem. The unemployment rate is close to 3% and I don't think it is possible to go lower than that. The real problem is working poor. The people are working, but the pay is low, there is no hope for advancement and the wages aren't enough to sustain a family.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2014, 02:03:20 PM
The real danger is ten years from now when huge cohorts of unemployable people kick in his door and proceed to rob and murder him.
HK really doesn't have an unemployment problem. The unemployment rate is close to 3% and I don't think it is possible to go lower than that. The real problem is working poor. The people are working, but the pay is low, there is no hope for advancement and the wages aren't enough to sustain a family.
Well when you put it like that it's easy to see why you're annoyed at them.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 01:30:11 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
I think they should do better in their exams, and join the finance sector :contract:
You yourself said that only a tiny minority of people will be able to join the finance sector. So where does that leave the people who cannot?
That's the point. There is a set number of people who can get the good jobs. The exams are graded on a curve. Only a certain percentage will win no matter what. If one person does better, another will automatically become worse by default. :contract:
And so, in your way, you agree with me that the people out there protesting are following one of the few rational courses of action available to them. Because every one of them who succeeds in following your advice knocks someone else down into the position where it makes sense to them to take to the streets to agitate for democracy.
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 06:21:30 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 01:30:11 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
I think they should do better in their exams, and join the finance sector :contract:
You yourself said that only a tiny minority of people will be able to join the finance sector. So where does that leave the people who cannot?
That's the point. There is a set number of people who can get the good jobs. The exams are graded on a curve. Only a certain percentage will win no matter what. If one person does better, another will automatically become worse by default. :contract:
And so, in your way, you agree with me that the people out there protesting are following one of the few rational courses of action available to them. Because every one of them who succeeds in following your advice knocks someone else down into the position where it makes sense to them to take to the streets to agitate for democracy.
My own unscientific estimate is that the exam fails 95% of the students ;)
Off to work now. Wish me luck :)
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 07:04:43 PM
Off to work now. Wish me luck :)
Good luck my friend. Hong Kong is lucky to have a bureaucrat as devoted to duty as yourself.
I bet he gets raped.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2014, 02:03:20 PM
The real danger is ten years from now when huge cohorts of unemployable people kick in his door and proceed to rob and murder him.
HK really doesn't have an unemployment problem. The unemployment rate is close to 3% and I don't think it is possible to go lower than that. The real problem is working poor. The people are working, but the pay is low, there is no hope for advancement and the wages aren't enough to sustain a family.
Over time automation and the mainland will destroy their jobs. And then you will die.
Back at work. Everybody I know is back. The rioters have called for a general strike. Going back to work and doing my part to help run the HK government bureacracy is my way of expressing solidarity with the police and the government. The underground trains are packed, because buses aren't running. The office workers are still working, and the HK stock exchange is open for business as usual. Strangely, no one speaks in the train station or on the trains. It is eerily quiet. I guess everybody has a heavy heart that the fucks have wrecked our city.
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2014, 07:39:18 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2014, 02:03:20 PM
The real danger is ten years from now when huge cohorts of unemployable people kick in his door and proceed to rob and murder him.
HK really doesn't have an unemployment problem. The unemployment rate is close to 3% and I don't think it is possible to go lower than that. The real problem is working poor. The people are working, but the pay is low, there is no hope for advancement and the wages aren't enough to sustain a family.
Over time automation and the mainland will destroy their jobs. And then you will die.
Their jobs have already been destroyed. The median salary in HK is around $11,000 per month (US$1,400). How much does a square foot of housing costs these days? Around the same. 90%+ of the population have no hope whatsoever of buying his own place. Young married couples either have to stay with their parents, or rent illegal flats of less than 100 square feet large that takes away half their income.
Personally, I'd rather the rioters leave you alone, because I'd much prefer the United States Navy glass you with an SLBM when it all kicks off in 2025.
I can see the rioters from my window. Police have deployed SWAT teams, anti-terror units and airport special police to defend this place. The roads in front of the Chief Executive's office are like a maze with obstacles deployed by police. Hundreds of tear gas grenades were thrown last night. No one is dead, even though tens of thousands of rioters were present. This speaks tons of police restraint.
Oh yeah I always think wow such restraint has been shown when police don't slaughter their citizenry. :lol: :(
Quote from: celedhring on September 28, 2014, 09:57:01 AM
In defence of Mono, I have read the book and I'd have not got that building is meant to be the Ministry of Truth.
How? Given that the book describes it as a pyramid patrolled by armed guards with automatic weapons, that still pretty much matches the book's description exactly.
The police do have two armoured cars equipped with non-lethal sonic technology. I hope they use them as soon as possible and clear the fucks from our roads.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 11:06:02 AM
The fucks have now blocked roads in Causeway Bay, our shopping district. And they stand at a petroleum station right outside police HQs, daring the police to fire tear gas at them. They really want to take away our peaceful society, eh. I hate them, honestly.
How they different from the protestors who toppled Eastern European dictatorships in 1989? Did that end peaceful societies? :rolleyes:
Anyways, more China fail.
http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-taiwan-rebuffs-china-unification-20140927-story.html
QuoteTaiwan rebuffs Chinese leader's new pitch for unification
Taiwan has sharply rejected Chinese President Xi Jinping's suggestion that the two sides end more than six decades of hostile separation by adopting a "one country, two systems" model like the one employed to achieve the return of the former British territory Hong Kong to Chinese sovereignty.
Dashing hopes in Beijing for reunification in the immediate future, the Taiwan government's Mainland Affairs Council said in a statement that more than 70% of Taiwanese people consider the Chinese Communist Party leader's idea "unfit" for their democratic, self-ruled island. Mainland China and Taiwan split amid civil war in 1949.
"Regarding mainland China's comments related to 'one country, two systems,' our government has no way of accepting them," the council said late Friday.
The timing of Xi's suggestion on Friday that mainland China and Taiwan could reconcile under a "one country, two systems" arrangement came at a curious juncture. Hong Kong democracy activists are waging a furious battle against authorities in Beijing, accusing mainland leaders of reneging on promises to allow truly open elections for the territory's chief executive in 2017.
Many Taiwanese have been closely following the events in Hong Kong, and Taiwanese President Ma Ying-jeou's called this month for stronger democracy in the territory.
The former British colony returned to Chinese sovereignty in 1997, and the "one country, two systems" framework was supposed to ensure that the region of 7 million was granted a high degree of economic and political autonomy for 50 years.
Taiwan's rebuke to Xi and its expressions of support for democracy in Hong Kong look to pose setbacks for Beijing's long-held goal of reunification.
Xi made his comments on Friday in Beijing to a Taiwanese delegation led by the head of a minor pro-unification party. It appears to be the first time Xi has publicly pushed the "one country, two systems" framework vis-a-vis Taiwan since he became head of the Chinese Communist Party in 2012.
"Peaceful unification and 'one country, two systems' are our guiding principles in solving the Taiwan issue," Xi told the delegation, as quoted by Taiwan's official Central News Agency.
Mainland China and Taiwan have been separately ruled since the Chinese civil war of the 1940s, when Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists fled Mao Tse-tung's Communists to Taipei, where they set up a rival government. After decades of icy relations marked by occasional threats of war, Ma's government in 2008 brokered talks on nonpolitical issues such as trade and investment.
The two sides have signed more than 20 nonpolitical accords – bringing millions of Chinese tourists to the island and lowering trade barriers to push total imports and exports to a record $124 billion in 2013. But Xi has pushed a reluctant Taiwan to discuss politics; in October last year, he said political issues involving Taiwan should not be "passed on generation after generation." But Taiwan's president has said he has no timeline for such discussions.
Xi may have made his comments Friday to take Taiwan's temperature again, said Nathan Liu, international affairs professor at Ming Chuan University in Taiwan.
"Maybe it's a trial balloon to see if Ma Ying-jeou is really eager for a Ma-Xi meeting," Liu said, referring to what would be an unprecedented encounter between the two presidents. "The second guess is that [the comments] were reassurance of the effectiveness of 'one country, two systems.' Two systems isn't working well in Hong Kong, so they're worried this is setting a bad example in Taiwan."
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 08:34:59 PM
I can see the rioters from my window. Police have deployed SWAT teams, anti-terror units and airport special police to defend this place. The roads in front of the Chief Executive's office are like a maze with obstacles deployed by police. Hundreds of tear gas grenades were thrown last night. No one is dead, even though tens of thousands of rioters were present. This speaks tons of police restraint.
Mono, you do realize you're coming over as a bit of a drone.
Incidentally, having viewed the lastest footage, I can see know way in which these demonstrators could be described as rioters. Where's the damage caused by this riot exactly?
I wish an Armored Car would run over Tim.
Quote from: mongers on September 28, 2014, 08:46:57 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 08:34:59 PM
I can see the rioters from my window. Police have deployed SWAT teams, anti-terror units and airport special police to defend this place. The roads in front of the Chief Executive's office are like a maze with obstacles deployed by police. Hundreds of tear gas grenades were thrown last night. No one is dead, even though tens of thousands of rioters were present. This speaks tons of police restraint.
Mono, you do realize you're coming over as a bit of a drone.
Incidentally, having viewed the lastest footage, I can see know way in which these demonstrators could be described as rioters. Where's the damage caused by this riot exactly?
They are blocking roads. That's criminal.
Quote from: mongers on September 28, 2014, 08:46:57 PM
Mono, you do realize you're coming over as a bit of a drone.
Incidentally, having viewed the lastest footage, I can see know way in which these demonstrators could be described as rioters. Where's the damage caused by this riot exactly?
It's a city full of accounting drones. They're probably tallying up lost revenue due to tardiness as damages. :contract:
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I think I should take a charitable, non-critical approach towards Mono; he's probably being monitored or assumes so and so is 'having' to post that bollocks to convince the ministry of his blind unthinking loyalty. :cool:
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I am tempted to go, give some words of encouragement to the riot police guarding the gates and cheer them.
Quote from: mongers on September 28, 2014, 08:52:14 PM
I think I should take a charitable, non-critical approach towards Mono; he's probably being monitored or assumes so and so is 'having' to post that bollocks to convince the ministry of his blind unthinking loyalty. :cool:
The words are from the bottom of my heart.
Quote from: mongers on September 28, 2014, 08:46:57 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 08:34:59 PM
I can see the rioters from my window. Police have deployed SWAT teams, anti-terror units and airport special police to defend this place. The roads in front of the Chief Executive's office are like a maze with obstacles deployed by police. Hundreds of tear gas grenades were thrown last night. No one is dead, even though tens of thousands of rioters were present. This speaks tons of police restraint.
Mono, you do realize you're coming over as a bit of a drone.
:o
Stop. The. Presses.
Quote from: mongers on September 28, 2014, 09:00:12 PM
Proof positive.
Think whatever you want to think, I don't really care. But it is a valid position to hope for peace and stability. Like I said, we are not North Korea, or even Eastern Europe pre-1989. We are one of the richest cities in the world, and I can access whatever website I want. I don't have any major problems with the regime. I can see why others may think differently, but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
What other recourse do they have?
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 09:07:03 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
What other recourse do they have?
Pass the exam and become a winner when they were younger? :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:08:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 09:07:03 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
What other recourse do they have?
Pass the exam and become a winner when they were younger? :contract:
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
Think whatever you want to think, I don't really care. But it is a valid position to hope for peace and stability. Like I said, we are not North Korea, or even Eastern Europe pre-1989. We are one of the richest cities in the world, and I can access whatever website I want. I don't have any major problems with the regime. I can see why others may think differently, but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 28, 2014, 09:10:08 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
Think whatever you want to think, I don't really care. But it is a valid position to hope for peace and stability. Like I said, we are not North Korea, or even Eastern Europe pre-1989. We are one of the richest cities in the world, and I can access whatever website I want. I don't have any major problems with the regime. I can see why others may think differently, but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true.
I live and work here. So does my family. You don't. I don't see how you know more about this than me.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:14:08 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:08:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 09:07:03 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
What other recourse do they have?
Pass the exam and become a winner when they were younger? :contract:
:rolleyes:
There is no second chance in life.
Perhaps in bizarro dystopias.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:11:19 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 28, 2014, 09:10:08 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
Think whatever you want to think, I don't really care. But it is a valid position to hope for peace and stability. Like I said, we are not North Korea, or even Eastern Europe pre-1989. We are one of the richest cities in the world, and I can access whatever website I want. I don't have any major problems with the regime. I can see why others may think differently, but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true.
I live and work here. So does my family. You don't. I don't see how you know more about this than me.
Of course, you could always lack perspective.
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 09:15:13 PM
Of course, you could always lack perspective.
My perspective on HK is better than Tim's :contract:
Mono I'm not sure what you're trying to 'prove' here.
Maybe you should burn those Canadian and UK passports of yours, just to be on the safe side.
Plus you wouldn't then need anyone on the outside of the cage to lock the door for you.
Wife and I couldn't really sleep last night. We kept turning in the beds and looking at the computer screen for the latest news. We used to be a very safe place. This is the biggest riot in living memory. Someone claims that this is the first time ever that HK police have used tear gas on HK people (the last time was on Korean farmers during the WTO conference in 2005, but that doesn't really count because no HKer was involved).
Quote from: mongers on September 28, 2014, 09:22:01 PM
Mono I'm not sure what you're trying to 'prove' here.
Maybe you should burn those Canadian and UK passports of yours, just to be on the safe side.
Plus you wouldn't then need anyone on the outside of the cage to lock the door for you.
I am certainly not trying to convince you :contract: I like to talk about this, that's good enough reason for me. Why should I burn the passports? They are hard to get and convenient. A few weeks ago I used the UK one to get into Germany. It felt really good to line up at the short line labelled "EU citizens" :P
It's no secret that Hong Kong's distinctive culture is also under threat from the Mainland. What's at stake here is also an attempt to keep Hong Kong from becoming no different from the rest of China. I'm not sure if Mono really doesn't see that.
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 09:33:48 PM
It's no secret that Hong Kong's distinctive culture is also under threat from the Mainland. What's at stake here is also an attempt to keep Hong Kong from becoming no different from the rest of China. I'm not sure if Mono really doesn't see that.
Frankly, I don't see that. And I don't see how attacking police lines can accomplish anything. I also have no idea what this culture means.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:35:13 PM
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 09:33:48 PM
It's no secret that Hong Kong's distinctive culture is also under threat from the Mainland. What's at stake here is also an attempt to keep Hong Kong from becoming no different from the rest of China. I'm not sure if Mono really doesn't see that.
Frankly, I don't see that. And I don't see how attacking police lines can accomplish anything. I also have no idea what this culture means.
If you don't see how allowing Beijing more control to dictate your internal affairs could possibly influence Hong Kong's independence and freedom of information,independent judiciary etc. then frankly you're probably too stupid to understand what you have in the first place.
mono's hostility toward the protestors doesn't mean he's unreasonable. the protestors are causing mayhem and violence in his home. no civilized government would allow thousands of protestors to prevent an important sector of a city from functioning. whether they're protesting for a valid reason is kind of beside the point. police brutality does occur, and many times black people are targeted or receive the brunt of that brutality. but, i don't think many languish posters would like mayhem in their own neck of the woods caused by thousands of black protestors.
there's a lot of disrespect and shit-throwing in this thread over a situation that's a lot more nuanced than some seem to think.
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 09:42:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:35:13 PM
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 09:33:48 PM
It's no secret that Hong Kong's distinctive culture is also under threat from the Mainland. What's at stake here is also an attempt to keep Hong Kong from becoming no different from the rest of China. I'm not sure if Mono really doesn't see that.
Frankly, I don't see that. And I don't see how attacking police lines can accomplish anything. I also have no idea what this culture means.
If you don't see how allowing Beijing more control to dictate your internal affairs could possibly influence Hong Kong's independence and freedom of information,independent judiciary etc. then frankly you're probably too stupid to understand what you have in the first place.
If this is Beijing, PLA tanks would already have controlled the scenes.
Quote from: LaCroix on September 28, 2014, 09:43:51 PM
mono's hostility toward the protestors doesn't mean he's unreasonable. the protestors are causing mayhem and violence in his home. no civilized government would allow thousands of protestors to prevent an important sector of a city from functioning. whether they're protesting for a valid reason is kind of beside the point. police brutality does occur, and many times black people are targeted or receive the brunt of that brutality. but, i don't think many languish posters would like mayhem in their own neck of the woods caused by thousands of black protestors.
there's a lot of disrespect and shit-throwing in this thread over a situation that's a lot more nuanced than some seem to think.
Ah yes a nuanced situation. Thanks for being a voice of sanity.
Also, thanks for getting racial on us. Appreciate it. :)
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:46:30 PM
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 09:42:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:35:13 PM
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 09:33:48 PM
It's no secret that Hong Kong's distinctive culture is also under threat from the Mainland. What's at stake here is also an attempt to keep Hong Kong from becoming no different from the rest of China. I'm not sure if Mono really doesn't see that.
Frankly, I don't see that. And I don't see how attacking police lines can accomplish anything. I also have no idea what this culture means.
If you don't see how allowing Beijing more control to dictate your internal affairs could possibly influence Hong Kong's independence and freedom of information,independent judiciary etc. then frankly you're probably too stupid to understand what you have in the first place.
If this is Beijing, PLA tanks would already have controlled the scenes.
That's the point. It's not Beijing. Yet.
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 09:48:42 PM
That's the point. It's not Beijing. Yet.
PLA troops stayed in their barracks (there are 10,000 of them in HK). HK police alone handled the situation. Not sure what more do you want.
Quote from: LaCroix on September 28, 2014, 09:43:51 PM
mono's hostility toward the protestors doesn't mean he's unreasonable. the protestors are causing mayhem and violence in his home. no civilized government would allow thousands of protestors to prevent an important sector of a city from functioning. whether they're protesting for a valid reason is kind of beside the point. police brutality does occur, and many times black people are targeted or receive the brunt of that brutality. but, i don't think many languish posters would like mayhem in their own neck of the woods caused by thousands of black protestors.
there's a lot of disrespect and shit-throwing in this thread over a situation that's a lot more nuanced than some seem to think.
Context matters and by and large people will decide whether to support or crush the protestors based on whether they think they have a valid reason for protesting or not.
The rioters have called for all students to skip class. Seems so far only about 10 schools have participated out of 1,000, and out of those 10 schools, only part of the students have responded to the call. I think for us ordinary citizens, the best way to oppose the savages is to get on with our lives normally.
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 08:36:30 PM
Oh yeah I always think wow such restraint has been shown when police don't slaughter their citizenry. :lol: :(
I wonder to what degree the HK police is sympathetic to the protestors. After all, they recruited in HK and are not necessarily part of the elites that Mono has thrown his lot in with. It's not like the HK government can do what they do in the mainland and pull in police and military units from the countryside who are less likely to identify with the protestors.
I do love the pre prepared police signs. STOP CHARGING.
:lol:
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 09:47:26 PMAh yes a nuanced situation. Thanks for being a voice of sanity.
Also, thanks for getting racial on us. Appreciate it. :)
this protest is unlike the 2003 protest which actually accomplished something feasible. there, the
hong kong government wanted to pass a restriction on speech, and protests resulted in the government permanently shelving the idea. here, the protests are aimed at
the national government and are not in response to anything new. they wish to change what has existed for some time. it's not a simple black and white, and the references to 1984 or comparisons with north korea are just asinine.
the "getting racial" was a direct reference to a prior languish thread a few months back. if you'd like, replace black with a much, much larger occupy wall street.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:50:37 PM
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 09:48:42 PM
That's the point. It's not Beijing. Yet.
PLA troops stayed in their barracks (there are 10,000 of them in HK). HK police alone handled the situation. Not sure what more do you want.
:shrug: Hope you enjoy your increasing de facto status as just another part of Mainland China.
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 09:56:49 PMI wonder to what degree the HK police is sympathetic to the protestors. After all, they recruited in HK and are not necessarily part of the elites that Mono has thrown his lot in with. It's not like the HK government can do what they do in the mainland and pull in police and military units from the countryside who are less likely to identify with the protestors.
the hong kong government has shown that it's
sympathetic mild (edit: i can see languish freaking out over that word :D) toward its protestors, here and in the past. while mono says people are arrested by the boatloads in these protests, of the 100,000~ protestors last july, only 500 were arrested.
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 09:56:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 28, 2014, 08:36:30 PM
Oh yeah I always think wow such restraint has been shown when police don't slaughter their citizenry. :lol: :(
I wonder to what degree the HK police is sympathetic to the protestors. After all, they recruited in HK and are not necessarily part of the elites that Mono has thrown his lot in with. It's not like the HK government can do what they do in the mainland and pull in police and military units from the countryside who are less likely to identify with the protestors.
From what I have seen on camera, the police did everything they could. They didn't just pepper spray the rioters. They actively fought with the rioters, grabbed their umbrellas and goggles with their bare hands, THEN sprayed them. Something which you may not understand is that civil service jobs (including police ones) are hard to get in HK. The average joe can't become a policeman.
The mainland Chinese rumour mill has (amongst others) the following rumours going right now:
1) The HK democracy movement is being encouraged by factions within the Chinese Communist Party who are dissatisfied with Xi's attempt to take control and the various purges being enacted in the name of fighting corruption. They hope to leave him with a Tiananmen Square type embarrassment and blood on his hands to sully his image.
2) Xi has in fact, at a recent meeting with HK leaders, said that the goal for Hong Kong is more democracy and that the current restricted list of candidates is not necessary, but this has not filtered out through the party and press communication channels due to various factional struggles, and due to the number one principle of the CCP - "we present a united front, dissent is handled behind closed doors" - it may not.
I'm not sure how credible I find those rumours, but I find their existence interesting in and of themselves.
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 10:01:23 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:50:37 PM
Quote from: Camerus on September 28, 2014, 09:48:42 PM
That's the point. It's not Beijing. Yet.
PLA troops stayed in their barracks (there are 10,000 of them in HK). HK police alone handled the situation. Not sure what more do you want.
:shrug: Hope you enjoy your increasing de facto status as just another part of Mainland China.
Don't blame Mono for being short-sighted, his vision is blocked by the heads of everyone around him.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:05:01 PM
From what I have seen on camera, the police did everything they could. They didn't just pepper spray the rioters. They actively fought with the rioters, grabbed their umbrellas and goggles with their bare hands, THEN sprayed them. Something which you may not understand is that civil service jobs (including police ones) are hard to get in HK. The average joe can't become a policeman.
The average joe may not be able to become a policeman, no, but he may have a number of average joe friends and relatives which may make it less than a sure thing that they'll follow a "mow 'em down" order.
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 10:10:48 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:05:01 PM
From what I have seen on camera, the police did everything they could. They didn't just pepper spray the rioters. They actively fought with the rioters, grabbed their umbrellas and goggles with their bare hands, THEN sprayed them. Something which you may not understand is that civil service jobs (including police ones) are hard to get in HK. The average joe can't become a policeman.
The average joe may not be able to become a policeman, no, but he may have a number of average joe friends and relatives which may make it less than a sure thing that they'll follow a "mow 'em down" order.
HK is divided. It isn't "the dictatorship vs the people". It is "half the population against the other" and "haves vs have-nots". It is difficult for me to explain this, but it is really difficult to describe a policeman as being a "have-not". Their circles of friends will tend to be haves.
If only Her Majesty's Government had returned HK to the correct China. Blame the UK. :P
Quote from: LaCroix on September 28, 2014, 10:00:51 PM
here, the protests are aimed at the national government and are not in response to anything new. they wish to change what has existed for some time.
Were the Civil Rights protests a response to something new?
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
Think whatever you want to think, I don't really care. But it is a valid position to hope for peace and stability. Like I said, we are not North Korea, or even Eastern Europe pre-1989. We are one of the richest cities in the world, and I can access whatever website I want. I don't have any major problems with the regime. I can see why others may think differently, but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
You do realize that's going to be one of the first things to go if Beijing gets its way, right? Say bye-bye to Google and easy access to your precious pirate anime sites.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on September 28, 2014, 10:18:18 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
Think whatever you want to think, I don't really care. But it is a valid position to hope for peace and stability. Like I said, we are not North Korea, or even Eastern Europe pre-1989. We are one of the richest cities in the world, and I can access whatever website I want. I don't have any major problems with the regime. I can see why others may think differently, but there is no excuse to block roads and attack police.
You do realize that's going to be one of the first things to go if Beijing gets its way, right? Say bye-bye to Google and easy access to your precious pirate anime sites.
You do realise that the pirate anime sites CAN be accessed even from the mainland, right? :contract: Like Beijing cares about the copyrights of Japanese firms.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:14:22 PM
HK is divided. It isn't "the dictatorship vs the people". It is "half the population against the other" and "haves vs have-nots". It is difficult for me to explain this, but it is really difficult to describe a policeman as being a "have-not". Their circles of friends will tend to be haves.
Interesting.
And would you say that it's close to 50-50? That actually about half the people in Hong Kong are doing fine with the status quo?
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 10:29:24 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:14:22 PM
HK is divided. It isn't "the dictatorship vs the people". It is "half the population against the other" and "haves vs have-nots". It is difficult for me to explain this, but it is really difficult to describe a policeman as being a "have-not". Their circles of friends will tend to be haves.
Interesting.
And would you say that it's close to 50-50? That actually about half the people in Hong Kong are doing fine with the status quo?
It is complicated. The pan-democrats consistently get around 60% of the votes in legislative council elections. The pro-establishment camp gets around 40%. But among that 60%, not all of them support civil disobedience. There is a whole spectrum among the pan-democratic camp. Some are radicals, and some are conservative.
Traditionally, there are 3 main camps in HK. The left (pro-Beijing; communists are technically on the left), the pro-business camp, and the pro-democracy camp. On political matters, the left and the business camp join hands. On welfare policies, the left and the democrats join hands. The civil service tends toward the pro-business group and is hated by both the left and the democrats for trying to balance the budget. The problem is both the left and the democrats get votes; the pro-business camp doesn't. The pro-business camp still retains enormous powers because half the legislative council seats are "functional constituencies", i.e. all the accountants elect a representative, all the business chambers elect two, etc.
So, it is complicated, not "government vs the people".
:hmm: I'm surprised that the left-communist contingent is so large in a place like Hong Kong. Do you have a sense of what the political spectrum is like in Mainland China?
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on September 28, 2014, 11:13:55 PM
:hmm: I'm surprised that the left-communist contingent is so large in a place like Hong Kong. Do you have a sense of what the political spectrum is like in Mainland China?
They are large. They have their own eco-system, their own schools, their own newspapers, their own businesses, and their businesses offer jobs for their own people. But like I said, a lot of people in HK are happy with the way things are. The 40% who vote for the leftist candidates are not necessarily leftists themselves. They are just happy with the status quo. Life is good for a lot of people here.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 06:23:31 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 06:21:30 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 01:30:11 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
I think they should do better in their exams, and join the finance sector :contract:
You yourself said that only a tiny minority of people will be able to join the finance sector. So where does that leave the people who cannot?
That's the point. There is a set number of people who can get the good jobs. The exams are graded on a curve. Only a certain percentage will win no matter what. If one person does better, another will automatically become worse by default. :contract:
And so, in your way, you agree with me that the people out there protesting are following one of the few rational courses of action available to them. Because every one of them who succeeds in following your advice knocks someone else down into the position where it makes sense to them to take to the streets to agitate for democracy.
My own unscientific estimate is that the exam fails 95% of the students ;)
I wonder if Mono is trolling or a callous horrible little man.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 08:53:28 PM
I am tempted to go, give some words of encouragement to the riot police guarding the gates and cheer them.
Yes, by all means, please approach riot police in the middle of a crowd control exercise. They love that.
Quote from: LaCroix on September 28, 2014, 09:43:51 PM
mono's hostility toward the protestors doesn't mean he's unreasonable. the protestors are causing mayhem and violence in his home. no civilized government would allow thousands of protestors to prevent an important sector of a city from functioning.
There doesn't seem to be violence. Blocking a road is something that a lot of Western governments would allow in order for the people to demonstrate.
:nelson:mono is the kind of guy who would gladly rat out his neighbor for hiding Jews if it was to his personal benefit and feel good about his obedience to the authorities.
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 12:21:50 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 06:23:31 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 06:21:30 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 28, 2014, 01:30:11 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
I think they should do better in their exams, and join the finance sector :contract:
You yourself said that only a tiny minority of people will be able to join the finance sector. So where does that leave the people who cannot?
That's the point. There is a set number of people who can get the good jobs. The exams are graded on a curve. Only a certain percentage will win no matter what. If one person does better, another will automatically become worse by default. :contract:
And so, in your way, you agree with me that the people out there protesting are following one of the few rational courses of action available to them. Because every one of them who succeeds in following your advice knocks someone else down into the position where it makes sense to them to take to the streets to agitate for democracy.
My own unscientific estimate is that the exam fails 95% of the students ;)
I wonder if Mono is trolling or a callous horrible little man.
All depends on what you think "passing" means. If passing means getting a good office job, then I think 5% is about right. There are only so many professional trainee, management trainee, and investment banking positions available every year.
Quote from: Syt on September 29, 2014, 01:08:43 AM
:nelson:mono is the kind of guy who would gladly rat out his neighbor for hiding Jews if it was to his personal benefit and feel good about his obedience to the authorities.
You still don't know me :lol: I hate my neighbours, and I avoid them as much as possible. But that also means I know nothing about them ;)
Quote from: Zanza on September 29, 2014, 12:36:53 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on September 28, 2014, 09:43:51 PM
mono's hostility toward the protestors doesn't mean he's unreasonable. the protestors are causing mayhem and violence in his home. no civilized government would allow thousands of protestors to prevent an important sector of a city from functioning.
There doesn't seem to be violence. Blocking a road is something that a lot of Western governments would allow in order for the people to demonstrate.
We let protesters use roads all the time. That isn't new. Happens every week. What is new, is that they explicitly say their purpose is to occupy key roads indefinitely until their demands are met. This is not acceptable.
There is a difference between protesting and blocking infrastructure.
I would be a terrible Frenchman. :Embarrass:
I have a secret...
Protesters block buildings/infrastructure because, if they didn't, the protests would be ignored/ineffective. :secret:
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 29, 2014, 04:03:17 AM
I have a secret...
Protesters block buildings/infrastructure because, if they didn't, the protests would be ignored/ineffective. :secret:
I have a secret too. The standing committee members in Beijing won't change their minds even if you occupy some roads in HK. :secret:
And that is how you end up with bloody revolutions. :)
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 29, 2014, 04:28:53 AM
And that is how you end up with bloody revolutions. :)
There has been no bloody revolution after Tian An Men.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 04:40:52 AM
There has been no bloody revolution after Tian An Men.
Yet.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 04:40:52 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 29, 2014, 04:28:53 AM
And that is how you end up with bloody revolutions. :)
There has been no bloody revolution after Tian An Men.
Because the Chinese middle class wasn't big enough yet. At one point it will be.
Quote from: Zanza on September 29, 2014, 04:59:36 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 04:40:52 AM
There has been no bloody revolution after Tian An Men.
Yet.
It has been 25 years. That's long enough by any standard.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 29, 2014, 05:01:06 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 04:40:52 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 29, 2014, 04:28:53 AM
And that is how you end up with bloody revolutions. :)
There has been no bloody revolution after Tian An Men.
Because the Chinese middle class wasn't big enough yet. At one point it will be.
The Chinese middle class is already gigantic.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 05:03:35 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 29, 2014, 05:01:06 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 04:40:52 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 29, 2014, 04:28:53 AM
And that is how you end up with bloody revolutions. :)
There has been no bloody revolution after Tian An Men.
Because the Chinese middle class wasn't big enough yet. At one point it will be.
The Chinese middle class is already gigantic.
Then every significant massacre or economic down turn from here now runs the serious risk of spawning a revolution.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 29, 2014, 05:08:00 AM
Then every significant massacre or economic down turn from here now runs the serious risk of spawning a revolution.
That's true.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 05:03:07 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 29, 2014, 04:59:36 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 04:40:52 AM
There has been no bloody revolution after Tian An Men.
Yet.
It has been 25 years. That's long enough by any standard.
The last 25 years must be some of the best in Chinese history. Never before have so many people been freed from poverty. And young people had lots of chances to better their lot in life.
But if young mainland Chinese would face the same situation that young Hongkongnese (is that a word? ;)) face right now, it could quickly lead to considerable unrest.
If revolution comes, do we have Mono's real name to send to the Committee of Public Safety?
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
Can't say I disagree. With the likes of Hortlund and dorsey gone, I think he might be the person with the most despicable proffessed views on the board right now.
On the other hand if he is caught commenting pro-protest stuff with his IP, he can kiss his career good bye
Plus this is something I am already noticing on some of the Hungarians i know: having accepted the regime as inevitable and un-toppable, they start to grow annoyed at attacks against it (despite never liking it and still not liking it), and perceive them as steering up unnecessary trouble
Quote from: Tamas on September 29, 2014, 06:50:06 AM
On the other hand if he is caught commenting pro-protest stuff with his IP, he can kiss his career good bye
He could just shut up?
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 06:52:59 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 29, 2014, 06:50:06 AM
On the other hand if he is caught commenting pro-protest stuff with his IP, he can kiss his career good bye
He could just shut up?
True
Quote from: Tamas on September 29, 2014, 06:52:53 AM
Plus this is something I am already noticing on some of the Hungarians i know: having accepted the regime as inevitable and un-toppable, they start to grow annoyed at attacks against it (despite never liking it and still not liking it), and perceive them as steering up unnecessary trouble
Doesn't make it less despicable, only more pathetic.
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 06:52:59 AM
He could just shut up?
It's something that interests him and we seem to be the only people he talks to. (That's perfectly healthy, right? :Embarrass:)
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
An insight into Chinese "gente de orden" (I have never known how to say that in English).
All revolutions are impossible until they are inevitable.
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 06:46:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
Can't say I disagree. With the likes of Hortlund and dorsey gone, I think he might be the person with the most despicable proffessed views on the board right now.
Dorsey is not gone. :ph34r:
Oh yeah, was Martinus gone for that revelation?
I've got to agree. Mono has graduated from a sad and pathetic character to actively despicable here.
Quote from: Tamas on September 29, 2014, 06:50:06 AM
On the other hand if he is caught commenting pro-protest stuff with his IP, he can kiss his career good bye
As I said, these are my own views :bowler:
Quote from: Tamas on September 29, 2014, 06:50:06 AM
On the other hand if he is caught commenting pro-protest stuff with his IP, he can kiss his career good bye
There's no need for him to be pro-protest, he can discuss it without stoopiing down to gloat about it. But apparently he can't keep himself from insulting kids with tons more spine than him.
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 07:13:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 06:46:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
Can't say I disagree. With the likes of Hortlund and dorsey gone, I think he might be the person with the most despicable proffessed views on the board right now.
Dorsey is not gone. :ph34r:
Is he DGuller as we always thought?
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 07:22:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 29, 2014, 06:50:06 AM
On the other hand if he is caught commenting pro-protest stuff with his IP, he can kiss his career good bye
There's no need for him to be pro-protest, he can discuss it without stoopiing down to gloat about it. But apparently he can't keep himself from insulting kids with tons more spine than him.
Yeah. Unless the situation is so bad down there that he can't make a neutral comment without condemning the protests in every other sentence, or he will get scooped by the Chicom gestapo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Untertan
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 07:24:10 AM
Is he DGuller as we always thought?
Yes.
Quote from: DGuller when he reads this
:mad:
Quote from: Syt on September 29, 2014, 07:26:10 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Untertan
:thumbsup:
Quote from: celedhring on September 29, 2014, 07:07:01 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
An insight into Chinese "gente de orden" (I have never known how to say that in English).
Ordinary people, maybe? "Salt of the earth" more figuratively.
Or is it more akin to "Orderly people." I don't think we have a good equivalent for that in English; maybe "Rank and file"?
First they came for the students, and I did not speak out...
Quote from: Savonarola on September 29, 2014, 07:31:42 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 29, 2014, 07:07:01 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
An insight into Chinese "gente de orden" (I have never known how to say that in English).
Ordinary people, maybe? "Salt of the earth" more figuratively.
Or is it more akin to "Orderly people." I don't think we have a good equivalent for that in English; maybe "Rank and file"?
It's pretty much the kind of character described in the Mann book Syt linked.
Quote from: Savonarola on September 29, 2014, 07:31:42 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 29, 2014, 07:07:01 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
An insight into Chinese "gente de orden" (I have never known how to say that in English).
Ordinary people, maybe? "Salt of the earth" more figuratively.
Or is it more akin to "Orderly people." I don't think we have a good equivalent for that in English; maybe "Rank and file"?
It's more about people who would be big fans of a law & order and/or silent majority political appeal.
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 07:25:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 07:22:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 29, 2014, 06:50:06 AM
On the other hand if he is caught commenting pro-protest stuff with his IP, he can kiss his career good bye
There's no need for him to be pro-protest, he can discuss it without stoopiing down to gloat about it. But apparently he can't keep himself from insulting kids with tons more spine than him.
Yeah. Unless the situation is so bad down there that he can't make a neutral comment without condemning the protests in every other sentence, or he will get scooped by the Chicom gestapo.
As I have said many times before, I am not influenced by the possibility of censorship. There is none in HK.
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
and you are the one who cannot accept the possibility that many people in HK are against the rioters? Not everybody who tries to overturn a regime in the name of democracy is a good guy.
Quote from: celedhring on September 29, 2014, 07:38:36 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 29, 2014, 07:31:42 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 29, 2014, 07:07:01 AM
An insight into Chinese "gente de orden" (I have never known how to say that in English).
Ordinary people, maybe? "Salt of the earth" more figuratively.
Or is it more akin to "Orderly people." I don't think we have a good equivalent for that in English; maybe "Rank and file"?
It's pretty much the kind of character described in the Mann book Syt linked.
Ah, I don't think we have a good equivalent of that in English; which means we'll have to steal the German word. :shifty: :bowler:
Untertan just means "subject" (of a ruler). Spießbürger might be closer; Leo translator offers philistines, squares, or Babbitt(?).
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 07:39:49 AM
It's more about people who would be big fans of a law & order and/or silent majority political appeal.
Ah, okay, "Tory," then. The concept has no equivalent in American English. :P ;)
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 07:45:35 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
and you are the one who cannot accept the possibility that many people in HK are against the rioters? Not everybody who tries to overturn a regime in the name of democracy is a good guy.
Of course I can accept that possibility, I can read your posts and I could listen to arguments, and we already know about your sheepiness in these issues. What I don't find commendable is the gloating and insulting you do. You have never been actively mean against anything in these forums, except now a bunch of kids who are, in your own words, "wanting to rob you". It shows that your views and personality are incredibly and disgunstingly selfish and petty. We know that you have no ideals besides your Scrooge McDuck style love for money, but such a brazen display of cheerleading is IMO incredibly disgusting to read. It's the more emotion you've showed in years, and it's to celebrate the crushing of an idealistic movement. You deserve your chains, you seem to enjoy them so much.
QuoteDer Untertan is the best known novel of German author Heinrich Mann.
This was really confusing at first because I read it as Thomas.
Quote from: Syt on September 29, 2014, 07:50:31 AM
Untertan just means "subject" (of a ruler). Spießbürger might be closer; Leo translator offers philistines, squares, or Babbitt(?).
I've never heard "Babbitt" used outside the novel; but that might be the closest equivalent. "Booboisie" (H. L. Mencken's term) might also be a good substitute.
Edit: Though "Babbitt and "Booboisie" would both imply vulgar taste and rampant consumerism.
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwillvideoforfood.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F07%2FPicture-1.png&hash=9a29f73c67386d28325a07ec80f2a4682b1f0a22)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 29, 2014, 07:58:28 AM
QuoteDer Untertan is the best known novel of German author Heinrich Mann.
This was really confusing at first because I read it as Thomas.
They were brothers, actually.
Quote from: Tamas on September 29, 2014, 06:50:06 AM
On the other hand if he is caught commenting pro-protest stuff with his IP, he can kiss his career good bye
Yes, I think this fear in motivating Mono to post as he has in this thread. He must be one of only a few thousands civil servants in that government building/complex, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that as part of a crackdown/monitoring that they'll be threatened, explicitly or implicitly.
Granted his comments build upon his persona here, but the sudden ratcheting up of the 'judgementalism' calling these peaceful demonstrators, "rioters" "fucks" "savages" seems to much out of character, for it not to be influenced by fears/worries real or imagined or even actual external direction.
I think we should let things be and give Mono a pass on this, maybe just so long as he doesn't keep resurrecting the thread every few hours.
Honestly, his rhetoric isn't that far outside what some of the "law and order" type Westerners on the forum say about protesters.
Quote from: mongers on September 29, 2014, 08:21:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 29, 2014, 06:50:06 AM
On the other hand if he is caught commenting pro-protest stuff with his IP, he can kiss his career good bye
Yes, I think this fear in motivating Mono to post as he has in this thread. He must be one of only a few thousands civil servants in that government building/complex, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that as part of a crackdown/monitoring that they'll be threatened, explicitly or implicitly.
Granted his comments build upon his persona here, but the sudden ratcheting up of the 'judgementalism' calling these peaceful demonstrators, "rioters" "fucks" "savages" seems to much out of character, for it not to be influenced by fears/worries real or imagined or even actual external direction.
I think we should let things be and give Mono a pass on this, maybe just so long as he doesn't keep resurrecting the thread every few hours.
As was already noted, he doesn't have to post on this topic at all - and certainly not as extensively as he has.
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 07:24:10 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 07:13:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 06:46:15 AM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
Can't say I disagree. With the likes of Hortlund and dorsey gone, I think he might be the person with the most despicable proffessed views on the board right now.
Dorsey is not gone. :ph34r:
Is he DGuller as we always thought?
Jury is out as socks can talk to one another.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamiefullerton/you-cant-say-hong-kong-police-or-umbrella-in-china-today#3xrx7bz
QuoteAmazingly, one Chinese TV station claimed that the thousands of people gathered in Hong Kong were there to celebrate National Day.
:lmfao:
Perhaps Mono has been sent off to a re-education camp and now a Chinese secret service functionary posts in his stead?
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 06:46:15 AM
Can't say I disagree. With the likes of Hortlund and dorsey gone, I think he might be the person with the most despicable proffessed views on the board right now.
HEY WHAT ABOUT ME
Quote from: derspiess on September 29, 2014, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 06:46:15 AM
Can't say I disagree. With the likes of Hortlund and dorsey gone, I think he might be the person with the most despicable proffessed views on the board right now.
HEY WHAT ABOUT ME
Sorry you're just in the 'regular asshole' category along with me, Viking and 37.5% of posters here. :cool:
Mono, I think I'm a lot more sympathetic to your position than the frenzied mob, but I find the language you use to describe the protesters offsetting as well. It makes you sound spiteful.
Off putting, that's the ticket. A little sleep deprived.
This is a frenzy? :huh:
Quote from: garbon on September 29, 2014, 11:01:57 AM
This is a frenzy? :huh:
When Marty is calling someone non-Muslim evil and there is general agreement, I reckon it's fair to characterize it as a frenzy.
I take it my dreams of Mono becoming a modern Liu Bang are not going to come to pass.
The Red Dynasty is losing the Mandate of Heaven Mono. Get on the winning team!
Quote from: derspiess on September 29, 2014, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 06:46:15 AM
Can't say I disagree. With the likes of Hortlund and dorsey gone, I think he might be the person with the most despicable proffessed views on the board right now.
HEY WHAT ABOUT ME
Nah, going to have to go with Ide one the Despicable scale. Your despicable views only get a
B+.
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2014, 11:09:32 AM
I take it my dreams of Mono becoming a modern Liu Bang are not going to come to pass.
The Red Dynasty is losing the Mandate of Heaven Mono. Get on the winning team!
Mono was definitely born in the wrong century. His Legalist ass would be right at home with the Qin.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 29, 2014, 12:06:37 PM
Mono was definitely born in the wrong century. His Legalist ass would be right at home with the Qin.
Mono just wants things to stay quiet so he can pursue his life, and anything that messes with triggers animosity. It's not about legalism or not, it's about fear of change and I've-got-mine.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 29, 2014, 11:57:52 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 29, 2014, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 29, 2014, 06:46:15 AM
Can't say I disagree. With the likes of Hortlund and dorsey gone, I think he might be the person with the most despicable proffessed views on the board right now.
HEY WHAT ABOUT ME
Nah, going to have to go with Ide one the Despicable scale. Your despicable views only get a B+.
See, this is why the left always fails. Infighting is truly a curse upon the cause of the progressives.
Quote from: Savonarola on September 29, 2014, 07:47:33 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 29, 2014, 07:38:36 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 29, 2014, 07:31:42 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 29, 2014, 07:07:01 AM
An insight into Chinese "gente de orden" (I have never known how to say that in English).
Ordinary people, maybe? "Salt of the earth" more figuratively.
Or is it more akin to "Orderly people." I don't think we have a good equivalent for that in English; maybe "Rank and file"?
It's pretty much the kind of character described in the Mann book Syt linked.
Ah, I don't think we have a good equivalent of that in English; which means we'll have to steal the German word. :shifty: :bowler:
Bertolucci would say conformist :nerd:
Y'all are much too hard on Mono.
He has a lot more to lose than any of those protestors. All they have to worry about is being arrested and getting a criminal record (which may or may not affect their career prospects). Mono is a career civil servant - aiding the protestors in any way would almost surely result in his termination from the only job he's ever held.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 29, 2014, 12:34:23 PM
Bertolucci would say conformist :nerd:
Rhinoceros (from the Ionesco play) would be better; unfortunately he's largely unknown here.
Quote from: Barrister on September 29, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
Y'all are much too hard on Mono.
He has a lot more to lose than any of those protestors. All they have to worry about is being arrested and getting a criminal record (which may or may not affect their career prospects). Mono is a career civil servant - aiding the protestors in any way would almost surely result in his termination from the only job he's ever held.
Is anyone asking for Mono to be a cheerleader for the protesters? :unsure:
An anti-Mono:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvxlGUki7U
Quote from: Savonarola on September 29, 2014, 12:45:36 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 29, 2014, 12:34:23 PM
Bertolucci would say conformist :nerd:
Rhinoceros (from the Ionesco play) would be better; unfortunately he's largely unknown here.
Yep, that's a very good one too.
Do you mean Ionesco and/or this particular play? I believe most people here would say Rhinocéros is his most famous play along Le Roi se meurt (Exit the King).
It's not like Bertolucci is mostly known for Il Conformista, is it?
He's probably more famous for the Last Tango in Paris (early example of flat sharing in Paris due to high rents according to some critic), or the Last Emperor.
Wikipedia just told me that Rhinocéros was made into a film with the likes of Gene Wilder and Karen Black.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 29, 2014, 11:00:37 AM
Mono, I think I'm a lot more sympathetic to your position than the frenzied mob, but I find the language you use to describe the protesters offsetting as well. It makes you sound spiteful.
Off putting, that's the ticket. A little sleep deprived.
this is fair, yeah. mono just seems frustrated at the whole mess, and that frustration is mess creeping through.
while i prefer the pro-democracy camp for obvious reasons, these students don't appear to be rallying for anything game-changing. they don't seem to want to change their employment prospects (see larch's argument) or to end state-sponsored discrimination (see garbon's post). they want more democratic elections. though it's a noble goal, the current election system doesn't appear to be evil. this isn't syria, for heaven's sake. i don't disagree with the protests, because i think the protests in of themselves are a good way to remind beijing that hong kong is different from the other chinese cities. but, a civil servant venting frustration at having his life disrupted isn't some crazy, condemnable thing. it's pretty valid.
Quote from: LaCroix on September 29, 2014, 01:04:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 29, 2014, 11:00:37 AM
Mono, I think I'm a lot more sympathetic to your position than the frenzied mob, but I find the language you use to describe the protesters offsetting as well. It makes you sound spiteful.
Off putting, that's the ticket. A little sleep deprived.
this is fair, yeah. mono just seems frustrated at the whole mess, and that frustration is mess creeping through.
while i prefer the pro-democracy camp for obvious reasons, these students don't appear to be rallying for anything game-changing. they don't seem to want to change their employment prospects (see larch's argument) or to end state-sponsored discrimination (see garbon's post). they want more democratic elections. though it's a noble goal, the current election system doesn't appear to be evil. this isn't syria, for heaven's sake. i don't disagree with the protests, because i think the protests in of themselves are a good way to remind beijing that hong kong is different from the other chinese cities. but, a civil servant venting frustration at having his life disrupted isn't some crazy, condemnable thing. it's pretty valid.
:lol:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 29, 2014, 12:59:04 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 29, 2014, 12:45:36 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 29, 2014, 12:34:23 PM
Bertolucci would say conformist :nerd:
Rhinoceros (from the Ionesco play) would be better; unfortunately he's largely unknown here.
Yep, that's a very good one too.
Do you mean Ionesco and/or this particular play? I believe most people here would say Rhinocéros is his most famous play along Le Roi se meurt (Exit the King).
It's not like Bertolucci is mostly known for Il Conformista, is it?
He's probably more famous for the Last Tango in Paris (early example of flat sharing in Paris due to high rents according to some critic), or the Last Emperor.
Wikipedia just told me that Rhinocéros was made into a film with the likes of Gene Wilder and Karen Black.
I had meant Ionesco. I didn't know there was a film version of "Rhinoceros," but after reading some reviews I can see why I hadn't heard of it.
Tell me more of this movie.
Maybe I'm mistaking Mono's point of view, but from previous posts going way back, he hasn't been much of an advocate for democracy. He once put things in the perspective that the civil service ran the show when the British were in place (the UK was far away and didn't really care about day to day stuff), and that established norms that have continued to today.
It would be easy to say that he supports the deference to the civil service as a civil servant, but it also seems to align with his politics and worldview. I'm guessing he wouldn't support "true democracy" in Singapore either. In Hong Kong's case, detached British rule backing up the system has been replaced by detached Chinese rule backing up the system, so I think I may understand where he is coming from.
I'd be interested if Mono agrees.
Quote from: LaCroix on September 29, 2014, 01:24:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 29, 2014, 01:06:19 PM:lol:
:hmm:
I assumed it must be a joke with your mischaracterization of arguments and then your bizarre litmus test on whether or not a protest should be jeered.
Quote from: alfred russel on September 29, 2014, 01:27:49 PM
Maybe I'm mistaking Mono's point of view, but from previous posts going way back, he hasn't been much of an advocate for democracy. He once put things in the perspective that the civil service ran the show when the British were in place (the UK was far away and didn't really care about day to day stuff), and that established norms that have continued to today.
It would be easy to say that he supports the deference to the civil service as a civil servant, but it also seems to align with his politics and worldview. I'm guessing he wouldn't support "true democracy" in Singapore either. In Hong Kong's case, detached British rule backing up the system has been replaced by detached Chinese rule backing up the system, so I think I may understand where he is coming from.
I'd be interested if Mono agrees.
Let's see his answer, but what I can surmise from his previous posts is that, for him, Democracy = Welfare State for the "losers" = More taxes for him, and he won't have any of that.
Quote from: Savonarola on September 29, 2014, 01:08:47 PM
I didn't know there was a film version of "Rhinoceros," but after reading some reviews I can see why I hadn't heard of it.
That's what I feared. :( Thanks for checking. There are a couple of TV movie versions as well in French with known actors but I guess it's more liked filmed theatre.
Quote from: garbon on September 29, 2014, 01:35:41 PMI assumed it must be a joke with your mischaracterization of arguments and then your bizarre litmus test on whether or not a protest should be jeered.
i thought you were comparing the civil rights protestors with the students today in terms of what they're advocating. if you meant the comparison to involve merely peoples' reactions to the protestors, then the situation seems different. the march on DC didn't intend to disrupt an important function. the students here actually want to shut down an important part of the city. people are less annoyed at protestors in a park than they are with protestors shutting down time's square.
my "bizarre litmust test" isn't anything radical, though. i can see why someone would in NYC would be frustrated with a massive occupy wall street movement. but, a massive movement protesting, say, a government's war against a neighbor, or mass discrimination, etc. are simply more valid. not every protest has the same level of validity. if beijing actually killed the
one china, two systems and actively sought to subjugate hong kong (mere allegations from some posters aside, beijing hasn't done this), and hong kongans protested as a result, then i think it would be a bit more fair to criticize mono (if he had the same reaction as he's made here). do you think this is a radical stance? i think it's just... obvious.
What specifically do the protestors want?
What does the average hongkongalongadingdong think they want?
What does Mono think they want?
Do they want whatever it is from Beijing or from HK?
My understanding is their formal request is the ability to directly nominate and elect the chief executive, without prior vetting by the (Beijing appointed) executive committee.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 29, 2014, 02:30:12 PM
What specifically do the protestors want?
What does the average hongkongalongadingdong think they want?
What does Mono think they want?
Do they want whatever it is from Beijing or from HK?
Pretty lame chant. No offense.
Quote from: The Brain on September 29, 2014, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 29, 2014, 02:30:12 PM
What specifically do the protestors want?
What does the average hongkongalongadingdong think they want?
What does Mono think they want?
Do they want whatever it is from Beijing or from HK?
Pretty lame chant. No offense.
It has potential; just needs a little wordsmithing.
Or maybe it sounds great in Chinese?
Quote from: mongers on September 29, 2014, 08:21:46 AMYes, I think this fear in motivating Mono to post as he has in this thread. He must be one of only a few thousands civil servants in that government building/complex, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that as part of a crackdown/monitoring that they'll be threatened, explicitly or implicitly.
Granted his comments build upon his persona here, but the sudden ratcheting up of the 'judgementalism' calling these peaceful demonstrators, "rioters" "fucks" "savages" seems to much out of character, for it not to be influenced by fears/worries real or imagined or even actual external direction.
Also there's precious few here who can get pious about someone cheering on the pepper-spraying, baton-charging wing of law enforcement. This place does it every time there's a demonstration. We are all aware they're blocking ROADS, right?
Personally I'm glad we have Mono around for this. I read a poll from a few weeks ago that showed a majority opposed Occupy Central. I suspect that the heavy-handed police response in the first night maybe swung a lot of people, if not Mono who was probably disappointed by today's restraint, but it's equally possible his is the voice of the silent majority in Hong Kong. Though I suspect there's less a fear of the welfare state for many than a fear of where this kind of confrontation with Beijing will lead.
Though the crowds did apparently increase after people left work, so maybe not all the office drones agree :P
Speaking of which I saw clips today of the protesters cheering the SAR flag and the PRC flag, which had, somehow, been turned upside down. I suspect that sort of splittism will worry/aggravate Beijing as much as demands for democracy.
Also most British news sources have been shit on this (BBC, obviously, has been very good) but if people are looking for liveblogs - as I was at work - the South China Morning Post one seemed really good and some really good images/stories. I loved the story of the Chief Secretary of Administration who misspoke and defended the police using 'appropriate violence' :lol:
Also this sign:
(https://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/486w/public/2014/09/29/message_to_commuters.jpg?itok=VhHicoTD)
And these protesters following the cardboard sign and not sitting or standing on the grass near the war memorial:
(https://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/486w/public/2014/09/29/grass.jpg?itok=CqyQohXX)
QuoteMy understanding is their formal request is the ability to directly nominate and elect the chief executive, without prior vetting by the (Beijing appointed) executive committee.
Yeah. From what I can gather Beijing's long promised Hong Kong a vote in 2017 and have said they can have it. But the National People's Congress passed a law that basically said Beijing would vet the candidates Hong Kong could vote.
From what I've read that's the key difference. In previous protests, like the one the 17 year old student leader last led over the 'patriotic' curriculum, though the policy was something Beijing wanted it actually came from the Hong Kong government. So they could back down in the face of protests and Beijing could appear unmoved. In this it's Beijing who'd have to back down and I read one legal expert who said the Hong Kong government's best option was to try and act as a broker between the two sides to reach a compromise. Unfortunately they now probably can't do that after last night.
They also want the Chief Executive to stand down that looks a lot more likely. But then Beijing may see even that as weakness, from what I understand, Zhao wasn't allowed to resign during Tianamen despite repeated attempts.
I want some hot T-55 copy action.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 29, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
Also there's precious few here who can get pious about someone cheering on the pepper-spraying, baton-charging wing of law enforcement. This place does it every time there's a demonstration. We are all aware they're blocking ROADS, right?
Plenty of people act as if they're unaware of the fact. :glare:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 29, 2014, 04:38:03 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 29, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
Also there's precious few here who can get pious about someone cheering on the pepper-spraying, baton-charging wing of law enforcement. This place does it every time there's a demonstration. We are all aware they're blocking ROADS, right?
Plenty of people act as if they're unaware of the fact. :glare:
I know. Get the fucking army in.
In fairness they are apparently leaving pavements open for people to get to and from work.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 29, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
Also there's precious few here who can get pious about someone cheering on the pepper-spraying, baton-charging wing of law enforcement. This place does it every time there's a demonstration. We are all aware they're blocking ROADS, right?
Lies! I always support the revolutionaries.
Well it does sound like at least one of Mono's criticisms makes sense--that they are protesting the wrong government and should be in Beijing.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 29, 2014, 04:50:48 PM
Well it does sound like at least one of Mono's criticisms makes sense--that they are protesting the wrong government and should be in Beijing.
A Long March on Beijing?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 29, 2014, 04:50:48 PM
Well it does sound like at least one of Mono's criticisms makes sense--that they are protesting the wrong government and should be in Beijing.
Americans often find it appropriate to protest at their local federal building, when they have a grievance against the U.S. government, without the need to travel all the way to DC. :sleep:
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2014, 04:52:06 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on September 29, 2014, 04:50:48 PM
Well it does sound like at least one of Mono's criticisms makes sense--that they are protesting the wrong government and should be in Beijing.
A Long March on Beijing?
You have a nose for PR. Could work.
Can Hong Kongolites travel freely in and out of China?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 29, 2014, 04:56:46 PM
Can Hong Kongolites travel freely in and out of China?
That too. State to state? No papers?
From the CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hong-kong-protests-police-ease-tactics-on-umbrella-revolution-1.2780879
Not every civil servant agrees with Mono. I wonder if Mono knows her?
Quote"The students are protecting the right to vote, for Hong Kong's future. We are not scared, we are not frightened, we just fight for it," said Carol Chan, a 55-year-old civil service worker who said she took two days off to join the protests after becoming angered over police use of tear gas Sunday.
But others reflect Mono's views:
QuoteWhile many Hong Kong residents support the calls for greater democracy — dubbed the "umbrella revolution" by some, although the crowds' demands fall far short of revolution — the unrest worries others.
"I strongly disagree with the protesters," said an older woman who gave only her surname, Chan. "Those of us who came to the city 60 or 70 years ago had nothing and we worked and suffered so much to make Hong Kong the rich city it is today. And now the protesters have made our society unstable. For me, being able to eat and sleep is already a luxury. I don't need democracy. What does it mean?"
Interestingly enough, when I read the article earlier there was a bit about a hedge fund manager - with his name no less - who was helping organize and fund supplies to the demonstrators, so that indicated to me that it's not just a haves-vs-have-nots; though it's not in the article now. I wonder if the article got edited.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 08:26:31 PM
Their jobs have already been destroyed. The median salary in HK is around $11,000 per month (US$1,400). How much does a square foot of housing costs these days? Around the same. 90%+ of the population have no hope whatsoever of buying his own place. Young married couples either have to stay with their parents, or rent illegal flats of less than 100 square feet large that takes away half their income.
Yeah, the fucks who set up that system
did wreck your city, didn't they? :(
Quote from: Jacob on September 29, 2014, 11:03:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 29, 2014, 11:01:57 AM
This is a frenzy? :huh:
When Marty is calling someone non-Muslim evil and there is general agreement, I reckon it's fair to characterize it as a frenzy.
What characterizes a frenzy versus normal everyday agreement?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 29, 2014, 04:56:46 PM
Can Hong Kongolites travel freely in and out of China?
Yes. The reverse is not true. Mainlanders need permits to visit HK and Macau. I am not 100% sure on this, but I remember reading that HKers have the "privilege" to visit Tibet without the need to apply for a permit. Mainlanders need permits to go to Tibet.
Huh. Is there any temptation to visit there? I mean just because it is such a pain in the ass for anybody else.
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2014, 07:54:18 PM
Huh. Is there any temptation to visit there? I mean just because it is such a pain in the ass for anybody else.
Definitely. It has been on our to do list for a long time. The main problem is that we'll get altitude sickness. We've been to other high altitude places, and both of us are susceptible. Another problem is the wife has high standards for accommodation and food. She is waiting for better hotels to be built in Lhasa before going :ph34r:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 29, 2014, 02:34:40 PM
My understanding is their formal request is the ability to directly nominate and elect the chief executive, without prior vetting by the (Beijing appointed) executive committee.
Yes. They've added a new one, that the Chief Executive must resign. Neither will happen. If the stalemate continues, the likelihood of the PLA intervening will increase.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 29, 2014, 04:39:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 29, 2014, 04:38:03 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 29, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
Also there's precious few here who can get pious about someone cheering on the pepper-spraying, baton-charging wing of law enforcement. This place does it every time there's a demonstration. We are all aware they're blocking ROADS, right?
Plenty of people act as if they're unaware of the fact. :glare:
I know. Get the fucking army in.
In fairness they are apparently leaving pavements open for people to get to and from work.
They aren't. They just don't have the numbers to block all the roads, and the trains are still running. Lots of people are unhappy, and passer-bys shout at them all the time. This morning someone with a Mercedes (a "have") just drove through the crowd at high speed. Nobody died.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1412017749579_709384E12757022401696AB3346652DF_zps02f4cd20.jpg&hash=2ae2183198e482a6c20b0d1266fc83912bca64a2) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1412017749579_709384E12757022401696AB3346652DF_zps02f4cd20.jpg.html)
Quote from: alfred russel on September 29, 2014, 01:27:49 PM
Maybe I'm mistaking Mono's point of view, but from previous posts going way back, he hasn't been much of an advocate for democracy. He once put things in the perspective that the civil service ran the show when the British were in place (the UK was far away and didn't really care about day to day stuff), and that established norms that have continued to today.
It would be easy to say that he supports the deference to the civil service as a civil servant, but it also seems to align with his politics and worldview. I'm guessing he wouldn't support "true democracy" in Singapore either. In Hong Kong's case, detached British rule backing up the system has been replaced by detached Chinese rule backing up the system, so I think I may understand where he is coming from.
I'd be interested if Mono agrees.
For me, democracy is a means toward an end. Democracy is a good way to ensure good governance, freedom, rule of law, etc. But HK is a special case because we already have all those things without democracy. So I don't really see the point of insisting on 100% democratic elections (we already have some). People need to face reality that HK is part of China and they won't let us have the elections. You go too far and Beijing will just come and take everything we cherish away. It is just a simple matter of declaring a state of emergency and ordering the PLA troops already here to take over.
Quote from: grumbler on September 29, 2014, 06:35:56 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 28, 2014, 08:26:31 PM
Their jobs have already been destroyed. The median salary in HK is around $11,000 per month (US$1,400). How much does a square foot of housing costs these days? Around the same. 90%+ of the population have no hope whatsoever of buying his own place. Young married couples either have to stay with their parents, or rent illegal flats of less than 100 square feet large that takes away half their income.
Yeah, the fucks who set up that system did wreck your city, didn't they? :(
It is really, really bad. I don't think it was intentional to set up that "system". What happened was, back in 97, 98 during the Asian financial crisis, real estate prices dropped by 70%, causing chaos. To restore confidence in the market, the government stopped most of the development projects. There was also a belief that HK's birthrate had dropped to Japan levels, so there was no need to build more housing. But in 2007/08, the financial crisis kicked in, and interest rates became record low. That, and China's rise means that many investors and speculators from the mainland are buying up our housing as a store of value. We are HK and we are all about free trade, so we can't stop them. So this now means that housing is unaffordable to most. The government is now trying to create more land, but this takes like 10 years or more, too late to deal with the current situation.
Why not just have Beijing execute the speculators/kulaks/counterrevolutionaries and redistribute the housing the people?
Quote from: Neil on September 29, 2014, 09:16:58 PM
Why not just have Beijing execute the speculators/kulaks/counterrevolutionaries and redistribute the housing the people?
Because the guys who have bought our housing *are* the ruling class in Beijing :lol:
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 09:18:43 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 29, 2014, 09:16:58 PM
Why not just have Beijing execute the speculators/kulaks/counterrevolutionaries and redistribute the housing the people?
Because the guys who have bought our housing *are* the ruling class in Beijing :lol:
Even better.
Quote from: Neil on September 29, 2014, 09:19:50 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 09:18:43 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 29, 2014, 09:16:58 PM
Why not just have Beijing execute the speculators/kulaks/counterrevolutionaries and redistribute the housing the people?
Because the guys who have bought our housing *are* the ruling class in Beijing :lol:
Even better.
This is yet another grievance. In recent years, millions of Chinese tourist come to HK. They buy up everything. Baby milk powder, housing, drugs (not that kind), even toilet paper. Tourists swarm our supermarkets. They think our stuff is better and cheaper. This means more business for the commerce sector, but has turned the retail market upside down. Mothers complain that they can't get milk powder, and all the malls now run shops that cater to rich Chinese tourists and ignore local needs. Businesses want more tourists, but the have-nots don't benefit from more tourists. They just see the downside. Small businesses are driven out. Locals need to go to inconvenient places to shop. Housing is unaffordable. Baby milk powder is often unavailable, or too expensive. Shops don't want to serve poor locals. The government of course won't turn the tourists away, and that's why they want elections to elect a government they want.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 09:25:54 PM
This is yet another grievance. In recent years, millions of Chinese tourist come to HK. They buy up everything. Baby milk powder, housing, drugs (not that kind), even toilet paper. Tourists swarm our supermarkets. They think our stuff is better and cheaper. This means more business for the commerce sector, but has turned the retail market upside down. Mothers complain that they can't get milk powder, and all the malls now run shops that cater to rich Chinese tourists and ignore local needs.
Maybe if the mainland wasn't such a corrupt shithole of counterfeit baby powder bullshit full of lead, sawdust and melamine, you wouldn't have that problem. But don't worry, that's your future. Enjoy the sawdust in your hypertension meds.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 29, 2014, 10:04:14 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 09:25:54 PM
This is yet another grievance. In recent years, millions of Chinese tourist come to HK. They buy up everything. Baby milk powder, housing, drugs (not that kind), even toilet paper. Tourists swarm our supermarkets. They think our stuff is better and cheaper. This means more business for the commerce sector, but has turned the retail market upside down. Mothers complain that they can't get milk powder, and all the malls now run shops that cater to rich Chinese tourists and ignore local needs.
Maybe if the mainland wasn't such a corrupt shithole of counterfeit baby powder bullshit full of lead, sawdust and melamine, you wouldn't have that problem. But don't worry, that's your future. Enjoy the sawdust in your hypertension meds.
They simply don't trust their own products, with good reason. They don't even trust the imported products sold on the mainland; they insist in buying the stuff in HK or overseas. Another issue is that the value of the RMB has gone up. HK uses HK$, which is pegged to the US$, which in the past few years has devalued against the RMB. So our stuff is cheap for mainlanders.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 08:34:41 PM
Another problem is the wife has high standards for accommodation and food. She is waiting for better hotels to be built in Lhasa before going :ph34r:
If you were truly just an office drone, the Motel 6 or Econolodge equivalents would be good enough. Harumph.
Also, there are better quality hotels in Lhasa.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotels-g294223-zfc5-Lhasa_Tibet-Hotels.html (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotels-g294223-zfc5-Lhasa_Tibet-Hotels.html)
Pretty good summary of events so far: http://biglychee.com/?p=12676
QuoteHK govt achieves the apparently impossible
The Hong Kong authorities achieved something amazing over the weekend. They started off facing a smallish, peaceful week-long sit-in/teach-in at Tamar by students boycotting classes. That gathering was augmented by distinctly non-ferocious high-schoolers on Friday and a slow stream of sympathizers during Saturday. SCMP-TearGasThat could have been the end of the story, with scholars heading back to class as we speak. But no.
(The following might not be in exact order, but roughly recounts the 'gradual and not so orderly' progress from just-another-protest to worst-mayhem-since-1967/'Umbrella Revolution' in less than 48 hours.)
As weekend approached, bureaucrats and police decided to impose pointless and irritating conditions on the student sit-in. They started by denying permission to use the Tamar park area, giving a permit instead to a crudely contrived and barely attended patriotic event featuring dancing grannies in pink. Then the cops, having wedged protestors into the avenue next to the government/legislative complex, started restricting access. Convenient pedestrian routes from the nearby MTR station were closed except to people leaving, and with the road blocked at either end by metal barriers, people arriving had to line up to get through a narrow space. This gratuitous inconvenience (like all that followed) was streamed live to the rest of the city, and the numbers of people deciding to join in rose significantly as Saturday progressed.
The breaching of the wall and the taking of Civic Square was a provocation the police could have shrugged off. Similarly, they could have ignored rather than disrupted the shipments to protestors of bananas, water and goggles. But they didn't, and the mood got more defiant.
With the demonstrators bedding down on the street for the night, Benny Tai announced that this was now the official Occupy Central – previously slated for Wednesday in, well, Central. Student activists resented this hijacking of 'their' protest. If there was any opportunity for the government to exploit this division over branding, they didn't take it.
Instead, after isolating and penning in the original protest, the cops found themselves surrounded by a newer and bigger one of reinforcement demonstrators. So they spent Sunday establishing an even bigger cordon around them – blocking roads, obstructing overhead walkways and sealing off MTR exits.
If anything, this seemed to encourage yet more citizens to turn up. By yesterday afternoon, subsequent waves of arriving protestors spilled onto one (later two) of the main roads linking Central and Wanchai, bringing traffic there to a halt. Chief Executive CY Leung and apparently drugged top officials gave a wretchedly unimpressive press conference, reciting zombie-style, how Beijing's political reform package reflected public opinion. The police launched an attempt to start clearing demonstrators, squirting pepper spray around.
Within hours as evening fell, yet even more thousands of pissed-off people were turning up. Incapable of detecting a pattern here, the cops then started firing tear gas and strutting around in gas masks and helmets with CS guns and shotguns. The Remingtons were presumably loaded with non-lethal munitions, but rumours started spreading about threats to use live ammo, and about plans to cut off the Internet over whole districts, and about the PLA sending tanks in.
Then it's as if the whole city erupts. As Sunday night fell and progressed, crowds turned out and blocked off streets not only in Admiralty but in Causeway Bay and Mongkok. Not just any old streets, but the main ones, like Nathan Road.
Monday morning, this being Hong Kong, everyone goes to work. But several key intersections on both sides of the harbour remained occupied by determined – and exhilarated, defiant and radicalized – protestors who have just given the city's government the biggest slap in the face anyone could recall. As on the day after the 2003 July 1 march (when then-CE Tung Chee-hwa retreated into a bunker for a week), there's a good feeling. Not least because of the huge drop in traffic in many downtown areas; could get used to this.
So to recap: a police force with a long record of calmness and efficiency sets out to handle a gentle, law-abiding and basically normal student protest in a highly civilized city, and ends up losing control as citizens rise up and occupy districts in scenes that look like Tahrir Square. The reason, obviously, was the use of violence, which appalled and then attracted huge numbers of additional protestors. Why did the authorities depart so drastically from their usual tried-and-tested minimum-force tactics? Unless the senior operations cops have become stupid overnight, it can only be because of political pressure. And that can only come, ultimately, from Beijing. After a whole string of heavy handed, clumsy, cretinous miscalculations (white paper, cyber-attacks, fake referendum, etc, etc), it comes to this.
To Beijing, this is not about Hong Kong, but about the danger of the infection of rebellion spreading from that irritating pimple to the Mainland. The Chinese leadership will not give way on political reform, and after the experience with Tung will instinctively want to stick with CY on principle. The rational – and not especially challenging – option would be to ask why people in Hong Kong are angry, and fix it. But of course that goes for Xinjiang and much else. Clearly, China is being run by mouth-frothing paranoiacs smashing anything that moves with a sledgehammer. They, not the Occupy Central organizers or the Hong Kong Police, are the ones who are out of control. At this rate, they'll nuke the Diaoyu Islands before end-year.
What happens next? Best-case semi-realistic scenario is that – after the Occupy Central actions blow over – local officials convince their Mainland overseers that Hong Kong needs to address at least a few of its social problems, and in a high-profile way. A boost in welfare spending, cheaper student loans, an emergency housing programme, or whatever it takes to convince some pretty angry people that their leadership is not totally deaf or malevolent. It might buy time, at least. Worst-case scenarios don't even bear thinking about.
The comments are pretty interesting too.
Mono, have you considered the possibility that you're not as much a member of the majority as you believe you are? I mean, isn't it possible that there was a lot of unexpressed resentment toward the status quo that was just waiting for the right trigger (e.g. the police being idiots and escalating things)?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 29, 2014, 10:21:28 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 08:34:41 PM
Another problem is the wife has high standards for accommodation and food. She is waiting for better hotels to be built in Lhasa before going :ph34r:
If you were truly just an office drone, the Motel 6 or Econolodge equivalents would be good enough. Harumph.
Also, there are better quality hotels in Lhasa.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotels-g294223-zfc5-Lhasa_Tibet-Hotels.html (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotels-g294223-zfc5-Lhasa_Tibet-Hotels.html)
Sigh. :ph34r:
Quote from: DontSayBanana on September 29, 2014, 10:28:48 PM
Mono, have you considered the possibility that you're not as much a member of the majority as you believe you are? I mean, isn't it possible that there was a lot of unexpressed resentment toward the status quo that was just waiting for the right trigger (e.g. the police being idiots and escalating things)?
I have never said that I am a member of the majority, and I don't believe I am. Hell, they want democracy, because they believe they can win in an election.
What do they mean by "cheaper student loans"? This is my area so I can say something about this. The interest rate for financially needy students is 1%, to be repaid in 15 years. The interest rate for non-means-tested loans is 1.395%. Can't go lower than that.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 10:37:36 PM
What do they mean by "cheaper student loans"? This is my area so I can say something about this. The interest rate for financially needy students is 1%, to be repaid in 15 years. The interest rate for non-means-tested loans is 1.395%. Can't go lower than that.
"...whatever it takes to convince some pretty angry people that their leadership is not totally deaf or malevolent."
Quote from: Jacob on September 29, 2014, 10:43:29 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 10:37:36 PM
What do they mean by "cheaper student loans"? This is my area so I can say something about this. The interest rate for financially needy students is 1%, to be repaid in 15 years. The interest rate for non-means-tested loans is 1.395%. Can't go lower than that.
"...whatever it takes to convince some pretty angry people that their leadership is not totally deaf or malevolent."
They have only themselves to blame when the PLA mobilises.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 10:48:44 PMThey have only themselves to blame when the PLA mobilises.
The PLA mobilizing in HK would be a pretty desperate move for China.
Quote from: Jacob on September 29, 2014, 10:50:10 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 10:48:44 PMThey have only themselves to blame when the PLA mobilises.
The PLA mobilizing in HK would be a pretty desperate move for China.
Chinese policy is to kill all unrest before it spills to other areas.
I think the government's strategy is to wait. It is good that the rioters' demands are so high that nobody thinks they can be met. Sooner or later, the people will complain about the disruption caused. Many people's livelihoods are being affected. The rioters' support will wane after a few days or weeks when it becomes apparent that they are achieving nothing. Their numbers will eventually decrease, and calls for police to clear the area with rubber bullets if necessary will go up.
Yeah, waiting makes sense. That's what they should have done to begin with, it seems. From what I've read (and posted), if they'd just let the student protest do its thing and peter out on its own this thing would've been over already with no world attention.
Quote from: Jacob on September 29, 2014, 11:33:09 PM
Yeah, waiting makes sense. That's what they should have done to begin with, it seems. From what I've read (and posted), if they'd just let the student protest do its thing and peter out on its own this thing would've been over already with no world attention.
Nah, they have been planning this Occupy Central thing for over a year now. The student protest just advanced the date by a few days. Many people in HK are very angry over a huge range of issues. Their hope for the past few decades is that they can elect a government they want in 2017. Beijing's announcement that they will vet the candidates is the last straw because it destroys the last hope that many people have. Police tactics may not be perfect, but have nothing to do with these deep problems.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 11:37:02 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 29, 2014, 11:33:09 PM
Yeah, waiting makes sense. That's what they should have done to begin with, it seems. From what I've read (and posted), if they'd just let the student protest do its thing and peter out on its own this thing would've been over already with no world attention.
Nah, they have been planning this Occupy Central thing for over a year now. The student protest just advanced the date by a few days. Many people in HK are very angry over a huge range of issues. Their hope for the past few decades is that they can elect a government they want in 2017. Beijing's announcement that they will vet the candidates is the last straw because it destroys the last hope that many people have. Police tactics may not be perfect, but have nothing to do with these deep problems.
I've been getting the impression that the Occupy people only joined the students after the police started looking more repressive than normal?
Quote from: Jacob on September 29, 2014, 11:46:39 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 11:37:02 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 29, 2014, 11:33:09 PM
Yeah, waiting makes sense. That's what they should have done to begin with, it seems. From what I've read (and posted), if they'd just let the student protest do its thing and peter out on its own this thing would've been over already with no world attention.
Nah, they have been planning this Occupy Central thing for over a year now. The student protest just advanced the date by a few days. Many people in HK are very angry over a huge range of issues. Their hope for the past few decades is that they can elect a government they want in 2017. Beijing's announcement that they will vet the candidates is the last straw because it destroys the last hope that many people have. Police tactics may not be perfect, but have nothing to do with these deep problems.
I've been getting the impression that the Occupy people only joined the students after the police started looking more repressive than normal?
The Occupy people's plan is to launch on 1 Oct. They were forced to advance the date when the students started attacking the government building. It is going to happen sooner or later, just a question of when and where. It is too simplistic to blame police tactics for the occupy movement.
The HK people are pissed off. Our inequality has exceeded Mexico if measured by the gini coefficient. The toublle is the government is seen as uncaring because it is, well, too rich. There are recent years when government is only spending one dollar for every two dollars it gets in revenue. It can continue to run for years without borrowing even if it gets zero taxes.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 08:52:52 PM
For me, democracy is a means toward an end. Democracy is a good way to ensure good governance, freedom, rule of law, etc. But HK is a special case because we already have all those things without democracy. So I don't really see the point of insisting on 100% democratic elections (we already have some). People need to face reality that HK is part of China and they won't let us have the elections. You go too far and Beijing will just come and take everything we cherish away. It is just a simple matter of declaring a state of emergency and ordering the PLA troops already here to take over.
It should be obvious that without democracy those things exist at the sufferance of the authorities at can be revoked at any time.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 30, 2014, 01:16:18 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 08:52:52 PM
For me, democracy is a means toward an end. Democracy is a good way to ensure good governance, freedom, rule of law, etc. But HK is a special case because we already have all those things without democracy. So I don't really see the point of insisting on 100% democratic elections (we already have some). People need to face reality that HK is part of China and they won't let us have the elections. You go too far and Beijing will just come and take everything we cherish away. It is just a simple matter of declaring a state of emergency and ordering the PLA troops already here to take over.
It should be obvious that without democracy those things exist at the sufferance of the authorities at can be revoked at any time.
Even if there is democracy in HK, those things still exist at the sufferance of Beijing.
There is already a "suggestion" in an article published in an official newspaper in China that, if necessary, "armed police" from China are ready and willing to "assist" in HK. The "armed police" was set up in China when they reduced the size of the PLA and the unemployed soldiers needed somewhere to go. It is frequently used in security in China and is expected to help the regular army in armed conflicts.
More background information for those who don't know.
The election rules are set out in HK's Basic Law, our mini-constitution. To change the rules, several parties need to say yes, including HK's Chief Executive, Beijing's National Congress, and HK's legislative council (LegCo). Basic Law explicitly says that LegCo must approve by 2/3 super majority, and this is the most tricky part.
LegCo consists of a ton of different parties. Without boring you with their names and affiliations, let's just say that there are 2 main camps - pro-establishment and pro-democracy. The split is 43/27. Do the math, and you'll see that the government needs around 4 democrat lawmakers to vote yes to change the rules.
The existing rule is that a 1,200 member committee elect the Chief Executive. Let's just say that Beijing controls this committee, for simplicity's sake. Beijing now says that by 2017, everybody in HK can vote in the election, but only candidates approved by this 1,200 committee may appear on the ballots.
The democrats basically say, no, we won't agree. We'd rather vote it down than have a fake election. Beijing basically says, if you want to vote it down, vote it down. It is either our plan, or the existing rules. Take your pick. The democrats say screw this, we'll occupy central until a more palatable plan comes up. As long as Beijing doesn't put up an alternative plan, the democrats' demands cannot be met.
China needs a reformer like Assad.
Quote from: derspiess on September 30, 2014, 08:45:47 AM
China needs a reformer like Assad.
The Syrian Civil War has killed at least 1% of the population. That would be equivalent to 13 million in China.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 08:52:52 PM
For me, democracy is a means toward an end. Democracy is a good way to ensure good governance, freedom, rule of law, etc. But HK is a special case because we already have all those things without democracy.
You had them but the white paper represents an attack on those things. In this respect, both the protestors (who are focusing on the high profile issue of chief executive elections) and their opponents are missing the point. The White Paper is fundamentally inconsistent with the notion of a neutral and independent judiciary; it categorizes judges or judicial officers as "administrators" akin to members of executive council and states that "patriotism" is the "basic political requirement" for such officers. The White Paper also trumpets Beijing's power to interpret the Basic Law without mentioning the HK judiciary's concurrent powers in that regard. There are two possibilities here: either Beijing is deliberately setting out to undermine the principles of rule of law in the territory, or the PRC functionaries that drafted the paper simply don't understand at the most fundamental level what the rule of law is and this don't see the problem. I suspect the latter which in some ways is more disturbing.
The latent flaw in One Country, Two Systems was always that one of those Systems has both de jure and de facto supremacy. So the viability of System 2 is not only based on sufferance and restraint from System 1, but also the capacity of System 1 to understand what is actually entailed in System 2.
The anti-protestor line that the protests are misguided and counter-productive may have merit, but if not that, then what should the response be? Because as I see it, doing nothing is not an option if HK wants to keep its political
acquis
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 30, 2014, 09:51:23 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 30, 2014, 08:45:47 AM
China needs a reformer like Assad.
The Syrian Civil War has killed at least 1% of the population. That would be equivalent to 13 million in China.
And that's almost as egregious as Brady's QB Rating last night.
Uggspwn
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 30, 2014, 10:31:40 AMYou had them but the white paper represents an attack on those things. In this respect, both the protestors (who are focusing on the high profile issue of chief executive elections) and their opponents are missing the point. The White Paper is fundamentally inconsistent with the notion of a neutral and independent judiciary; it categorizes judges or judicial officers as "administrators" akin to members of executive council and states that "patriotism" is the "basic political requirement" for such officers. The White Paper also trumpets Beijing's power to interpret the Basic Law without mentioning the HK judiciary's concurrent powers in that regard. There are two possibilities here: either Beijing is deliberately setting out to undermine the principles of rule of law in the territory, or the PRC functionaries that drafted the paper simply don't understand at the most fundamental level what the rule of law is and this don't see the problem. I suspect the latter which in some ways is more disturbing.
Given that Hong Kong's, as Mono says, mainly a financial centre it'd be interesting to see how long that could last if there doubts emerged about the rule of law, especially noone needs to be there to access China anymore.
QuoteThe latent flaw in One Country, Two Systems was always that one of those Systems has both de jure and de facto supremacy. So the viability of System 2 is not only based on sufferance and restraint from System 1, but also the capacity of System 1 to understand what is actually entailed in System 2.
The anti-protestor line that the protests are misguided and counter-productive may have merit, but if not that, then what should the response be? Because as I see it, doing nothing is not an option if HK wants to keep its political acquis
Isn't it meant to expire 2047 anyway?
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 02:24:22 PM
Isn't it meant to expire 2047 anyway?
I was thinking that too. The illusion of rights and freedom was bound to end anyway, but perhaps by 2047 , China will have progressed. Or occupy all of East Asia spreading the glories of communism to the deprived people's of Japan and the Russian far east. :)
It doesn't say anywhere that it will end 2047, only that it won't end earlier.
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 02:41:32 PM
It doesn't say anywhere that it will end 2047, only that it won't end earlier.
It does. According to Wiki - 'the socialist system and policies shall not be practised in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, and the previous capitalist system and way of life shall remain unchanged for 50 years.'
It's in the Sino-British agreement on transfer too, not that that matters.
Of course if they were move to one country, one system I imagine that would make a lot of civil servants utterly redundant....
Well, you are the native speaker, but to me that sentence doesn't say that on 1st January 2047 Hong Kong will just be another Chinese city. It does say however, that until 2046 it won't.
I'm with you Zanza. It's an option, not a requirement.
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 02:49:55 PM
Well, you are the native speaker, but to me that sentence doesn't say that on 1st January 2047 Hong Kong will just be another Chinese city. It does say however, that until 2046 it won't.
Sorry I misread you, you're right.
Edit: My understanding is that the theory was that by then the two systems may have converged anyway. I wonder which direction people envisaged that happening?
Which begs the question, if the Chinese did attempt to move away from the One Country Two Systems in HK, would Britain as guarantor of the treaty do anything about it? IMO probably not, other than a strongly worded letter of protest to the Chinese embassy.
Would nuke Alaska as a symbol of protest. At least I hope so.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 02:53:29 PM
Edit: My understanding is that the theory was that by then the two systems may have converged anyway. I wonder which direction people envisaged that happening?
Deng was an authoritarian, so I am sure he envisaged an authoritarian regime like we have in China now. However, I doubt that he would have envisaged having lots of billionaires in positions of power and as part of the people's congress.
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 02:58:48 PM
Deng was an authoritarian, so I am sure he envisaged an authoritarian regime like we have in China now. However, I doubt that he would have envisaged having lots of billionaires in positions of power and as part of the people's congress.
I'm not sure. The corruption of the CCP and billionaires emerging were already things in the 80s and Deng didn't mind them. No doubt on the authoritarianism though.
I wonder what Thatcher expected.
QuoteWhich begs the question, if the Chinese did attempt to move away from the One Country Two Systems in HK, would Britain as guarantor of the treaty do anything about it? IMO probably not, other than a strongly worded letter of protest to the Chinese embassy.
Been mentioned by Nick Clegg's twitter:
I sympathise a great deal with the brave pro-democracy demonstrators taking to the streets of Hong Kong. 1/3
The UK remains committed to the Joint Declaration and the principle of 'One Country, Two Systems'. 2/3
Universal suffrage must mean real choice for the people of Hong Kong and a proper stake in the 2017 election. 3/3
But it's tough to see what we could do. Although apparently the Chinese press are blaming it on British and American machinations. I never know if it's a good or a bad thing that countries like China and Iran still think we've got a lot of influence in the world :mellow:
Quote from: The Brain on September 30, 2014, 02:56:19 PM
Would nuke Alaska as a symbol of protest. At least I hope so.
but what about katmai? :o :o :o
The UK could and would do nothing, aside from releasing a public statement of outrage.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 30, 2014, 03:05:13 PM
.....
Been mentioned by Nick Clegg's twitter:
I sympathise a great deal with the brave pro-democracy demonstrators taking to the streets of Hong Kong. 1/3
The UK remains committed to the Joint Declaration and the principle of 'One Country, Two Systems'. 2/3
Universal suffrage must mean real choice for the people of Hong Kong and a proper stake in the 2017 election. 3/3
But it's tough to see what we could do. Although apparently the Chinese press are blaming it on British and American machinations. I never know if it's a good or a bad thing that countries like China and Iran still think we've got a lot of influence in the world :mellow:
[A sizeable part of the HK population]
Thanks for jinxing that for us. :mad:
[/A sizeable part of the HK population]
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 02:49:55 PM
Well, you are the native speaker, but to me that sentence doesn't say that on 1st January 2047 Hong Kong will just be another Chinese city. It does say however, that until 2046 it won't.
All land deeds in HK only last until 2047, including the deed on my little flat.
Article on the behaviour of the protestors: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29423147
They're doing things like: doing their homework, picking up the trash, respecting "stay off the grass" signs, putting up signs apologizing for the inconvenience of the barricades they put up.
So? What the CCP wants more than anything else is stability. If they look back in the 2040s and see that they had 45 years of one country, two systems and it worked, they'll not start massive changes all of a sudden.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 30, 2014, 10:31:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 29, 2014, 08:52:52 PM
For me, democracy is a means toward an end. Democracy is a good way to ensure good governance, freedom, rule of law, etc. But HK is a special case because we already have all those things without democracy.
You had them but the white paper represents an attack on those things. In this respect, both the protestors (who are focusing on the high profile issue of chief executive elections) and their opponents are missing the point. The White Paper is fundamentally inconsistent with the notion of a neutral and independent judiciary; it categorizes judges or judicial officers as "administrators" akin to members of executive council and states that "patriotism" is the "basic political requirement" for such officers. The White Paper also trumpets Beijing's power to interpret the Basic Law without mentioning the HK judiciary's concurrent powers in that regard. There are two possibilities here: either Beijing is deliberately setting out to undermine the principles of rule of law in the territory, or the PRC functionaries that drafted the paper simply don't understand at the most fundamental level what the rule of law is and this don't see the problem. I suspect the latter which in some ways is more disturbing.
The latent flaw in One Country, Two Systems was always that one of those Systems has both de jure and de facto supremacy. So the viability of System 2 is not only based on sufferance and restraint from System 1, but also the capacity of System 1 to understand what is actually entailed in System 2.
The anti-protestor line that the protests are misguided and counter-productive may have merit, but if not that, then what should the response be? Because as I see it, doing nothing is not an option if HK wants to keep its political acquis
The communists don't get the idea of an independent judiciary at all. They think they have an independent judiciary too. They consider it just a front to fool people, and they think we are the same. In their minds, our judges are all agents of the British/US to subvert HK/China, and that's why they keep ruling against the HK government on various issues.
So far they haven't done anything though. I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper.
Quote from: Zanza on September 30, 2014, 04:25:18 PM
So? What the CCP wants more than anything else is stability. If they look back in the 2040s and see that they had 45 years of one country, two systems and it worked, they'll not start massive changes all of a sudden.
The 2047 thing mainly applies to the "capitalist" system of HK, meaning that we can have private property, especially on land. On the Mainland, all land belongs to "the people".
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
So far they haven't done anything though. I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper.
Under what conditions would it be an appropriate response to be occupying the streets? I'm assuming if they went after your pension you would be rioting in short order.
So far the government has defiantly refused to meet with the rioters. There will be no negotiations and no backing downs. The Chief Executive says that he expects this to be a drawn out affair. I think the strategy is to Stalingrad them. They want the roads, they can keep them. But there will be no negotiations and no possibility of a political settlement either.
The rioters pick this week for a reason. Out of 9 days, there are only 3 working days. So a lot of people take leave with or without the riots anyway. But what will happen after that? The rioters are getting desperate and keep giving the HK government deadlines to respond/negotiate, which have all been completely ignored. After these 9 days, pressure on the rioters will mount as many people's livelihoods are on the line. Taxi drivers, minibus drivers, small businesses, and workers relying on sales commissions will complain. There are already an increasing no. of incidents - shouting matches, eggs were thrown at the rioters, etc. The government keeps saying that if they keep this up, emergency services (fire, rescue, ambulances) will be affected too.
The possibility of the worst case scenario is increasing - the central government may intervene at any moment. At any rate, I think Beijing has already taken over in all decision making on what to do next, since this has esculated to become an international problem. The worst case scenario is that they will declare a state of emergency and take over temporarily. Send armed police to clear the streets with rubber bullets. Disband Legco, and form a temporary one with loyalists (happened during the takeover). Pass the new election rules, pass the national security legislation (withdrawn after huge protests in 2003), change the Legco rules and procedures to ensure no filibustering in the future, weaken Legco's powers. Arrest the riot leaders and imprison them on the mainland. After a month or two, hand the local administration back to the same HK government.
Quote from: frunk on September 30, 2014, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
So far they haven't done anything though. I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper.
Under what conditions would it be an appropriate response to be occupying the streets? I'm assuming if they went after your pension you would be rioting in short order.
It is not appropriate to take the streets under any circumstances. I think civil service pay and benefits are even more secure after these incidents :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
Monos don't get the idea of independent protest at all. They think they have an independent judiciary too. They consider it just a front to fool people, and they think we are the same. In their minds, our judges are all agents of the British/US to subvert HK/China, and that's why they keep ruling against the HK government on various issues.
So far they haven't done anything though. I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper.
And whilst you're at it can you explain the difference between rioters and protesters/demonstrators, because you appear to treat them as synonyms.
Quote from: mongers on September 30, 2014, 05:10:00 PM
And whilst you're at it can you explain the difference between rioters and protesters/demonstrators, because you appear to treat them as synonyms.
Protesters obtain police approval, and don't occupy roads for more than a few hours when the marches/gatherings are over. Rioters occupy roads, fight the police, try to cross police codron lines, attack government buildings, prevent other road users from using public infrastructure, blackmail the public and government and say that unless their impossible demands are met, they won't leave. They are rioters and I won't change my mind.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 30, 2014, 05:10:00 PM
And whilst you're at it can you explain the difference between rioters and protesters/demonstrators, because you appear to treat them as synonyms.
Protesters obtain police approval, and don't occupy roads for more than a few hours when the marches/gatherings are over. Rioters occupy roads, fight the police, try to cross police codron lines, attack government buildings, prevent other road users from using public infrastructure, blackmail the public and government and say that unless their impossible demands are met, they won't leave. They are rioters and I won't change my mind.
You seem to be a blind to this distinction as the CCP apparatchiks you've criticised above.
Mono, if there is an near inevitable crackdown on these peaceful protesters, then please show some residual decency and don't come here crowing about it.
Quote from: mongers on September 30, 2014, 05:22:56 PM
You seem to be a blind to this distinction as the CCP apparatchiks you've criticised above.
Mono, if there is an near inevitable crackdown on these peaceful protesters, then please show some residual decency and don't come here crowing about it.
I am afraid that you'll have to stop reading them instead :contract:
I'll join mono in crowing about it. MY YELLOW BROTHER
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
The communists don't get the idea of an independent judiciary at all. They think they have an independent judiciary too. They consider it just a front to fool people, and they think we are the same. In their minds, our judges are all agents of the British/US to subvert HK/China, and that's why they keep ruling against the HK government on various issues.
So far they haven't done anything though.
Of course not, if they did it now it would unite the pro-democracy crowd with pro-business types. Instead they play divide and conquer, isolate and the knock off democratic activists and leave the rest you to stand alone when the next move comes.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 01, 2014, 12:19:59 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
The communists don't get the idea of an independent judiciary at all. They think they have an independent judiciary too. They consider it just a front to fool people, and they think we are the same. In their minds, our judges are all agents of the British/US to subvert HK/China, and that's why they keep ruling against the HK government on various issues.
So far they haven't done anything though.
Of course not, if they did it now it would unite the pro-democracy crowd with pro-business types. Instead they play divide and conquer, isolate and the knock off democratic activists and leave the rest you to stand alone when the next move comes.
To be fair to Beijing, it is the democratic activists who want to pick fights. They are the ones who are unhappy with the status quo and want to shake things up.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 05:24:45 PM
I am afraid that you'll have to stop reading them instead :contract:
Ugh. Can't one of the mods give this guy a "break" until the protesters break up or are broken up?
Mono, you do realize you've successfully pissed off a significant portion of the forum, right? We joke a lot, but at some level, we at least respect that people can have problems with the government and have the right to "shake things up" to get those problems redressed. Your inability to think past your own wallet is pretty disgusting. Hell, you even talk about the protests ending in terms of wage shortfalls.
I know this is going to shock you, but there are people to whom having a working government means more than having a steady paycheck. Crowing that eventually the army's going to crack down on these people for (mostly) peacefully insisting that their problems are addressed? Stay classy, Mono.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 04:44:15 PM
Quote from: frunk on September 30, 2014, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
So far they haven't done anything though. I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper.
Under what conditions would it be an appropriate response to be occupying the streets? I'm assuming if they went after your pension you would be rioting in short order.
It is not appropriate to take the streets under any circumstances. I think civil service pay and benefits are even more secure after these incidents :contract:
HA! The Greeks thought that as well. Maybe after the crackdown and the replacement of the Hong Kong Bureaucracy by those deemed more loyal (I.E. not having a British passport), you can get a job driving a cab.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 05:09:32 AM
Maybe after the crackdown and the replacement of the Hong Kong Bureaucracy by those deemed more loyal (I.E. not having a British passport), you can get a job driving a cab.
In Canada. :yeah:
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 01, 2014, 04:15:52 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 05:24:45 PM
I am afraid that you'll have to stop reading them instead :contract:
Ugh. Can't one of the mods give this guy a "break" until the protesters break up or are broken up?
Mono, you do realize you've successfully pissed off a significant portion of the forum, right? We joke a lot, but at some level, we at least respect that people can have problems with the government and have the right to "shake things up" to get those problems redressed. Your inability to think past your own wallet is pretty disgusting. Hell, you even talk about the protests ending in terms of wage shortfalls.
I know this is going to shock you, but there are people to whom having a working government means more than having a steady paycheck. Crowing that eventually the army's going to crack down on these people for (mostly) peacefully insisting that their problems are addressed? Stay classy, Mono.
There are anti-government protests in HK all the time. Those who are unhappy can protest legally, and they have been doing so for years. I however have no sympathy for those who occupy roads and attack police.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 05:24:45 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 30, 2014, 05:22:56 PM
You seem to be a blind to this distinction as the CCP apparatchiks you've criticised above.
Mono, if there is an near inevitable crackdown on these peaceful protesters, then please show some residual decency and don't come here crowing about it.
I am afraid that you'll have to stop reading them instead :contract:
No, I'll continue to read the thread and wonder what happened to Mono, one of the posters I used to like the most on this forum, the guy had an eccentric and amusing take on life together with some interesting stories about life in the East.
However too much concentrate on one character aspect has seen that Mono faded away, to be replaced with someone I'd really rather not communicate with.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 05:09:32 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 04:44:15 PM
Quote from: frunk on September 30, 2014, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
So far they haven't done anything though. I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper.
Under what conditions would it be an appropriate response to be occupying the streets? I'm assuming if they went after your pension you would be rioting in short order.
It is not appropriate to take the streets under any circumstances. I think civil service pay and benefits are even more secure after these incidents :contract:
HA! The Greeks thought that as well. Maybe after the crackdown and the replacement of the Hong Kong Bureaucracy by those deemed more loyal (I.E. not having a British passport), you can get a job driving a cab.
You seem to underestimate the number of people in HK who hold foreign passports :contract:
Rioters gave ultimatum that the Chief Executive must resign. He immediately rejected.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 01, 2014, 07:09:29 AM
You seem to underestimate the number of people in HK who hold foreign passports :contract:
There are plenty of people in the mainland who fill out those positions.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 01, 2014, 06:09:06 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 05:09:32 AM
Maybe after the crackdown and the replacement of the Hong Kong Bureaucracy by those deemed more loyal (I.E. not having a British passport), you can get a job driving a cab.
In Canada. :yeah:
In Cargaly. I can see a sitcom concept brewing. :hmm:
Mono could be played by the crazy Spanish teacher/janitor guy from the Community.
Quote from: Martinus on October 01, 2014, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 01, 2014, 06:09:06 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 05:09:32 AM
Maybe after the crackdown and the replacement of the Hong Kong Bureaucracy by those deemed more loyal (I.E. not having a British passport), you can get a job driving a cab.
In Canada. :yeah:
In Cargaly. I can see a sitcom concept brewing. :hmm:
Mono could be played by the crazy Spanish teacher/janitor guy from the Community.
I like Ben Stiller.
While I find Mono's rhetoric to be reprehensible, I'm leery of the requests to crack down on him. His opinion is a rancorous one, but it is representative of the embattled elites of Hong Kong. He is being true to his class and section by being so despicable.
Were this the 1960s, I wonder if Languish would be calling for bans on me for despicable pro-segregationist rhetoric? It seems unreasonable to punish a white male Southerner of that era for voicing such opinions, however poorly they may play on a wider international stage; similarly it doesn't feel right to be moved to want to see Mono censured and censored for being a filthy Chinese bureaucrat; we've all known him to be such, it is only that just now international events push the more disgusting, avaricious, self-aggrandizing and cravenly myopic aspects of his nature to the forefront.
1960s? Hell, we do that now, you useless pile of confederate monkey spunk.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 01, 2014, 04:15:52 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 05:24:45 PM
I am afraid that you'll have to stop reading them instead :contract:
Ugh. Can't one of the mods give this guy a "break" until the protesters break up or are broken up?
Mono, you do realize you've successfully pissed off a significant portion of the forum, right? We joke a lot, but at some level, we at least respect that people can have problems with the government and have the right to "shake things up" to get those problems redressed. Your inability to think past your own wallet is pretty disgusting. Hell, you even talk about the protests ending in terms of wage shortfalls.
I know this is going to shock you, but there are people to whom having a working government means more than having a steady paycheck. Crowing that eventually the army's going to crack down on these people for (mostly) peacefully insisting that their problems are addressed? Stay classy, Mono.
I'll agree that this post is frenzied. -_-
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 01, 2014, 09:01:14 AM
1960s? Hell, we do that now, you useless pile of confederate monkey spunk.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 01, 2014, 08:57:27 AM
While I find Mono's rhetoric to be reprehensible, I'm leery of the requests to crack down on him. His opinion is a rancorous one, but it is representative of the embattled elites of Hong Kong. He is being true to his class and section by being so despicable.
Were this the 1960s, I wonder if Languish would be calling for bans on me for despicable pro-segregationist rhetoric? It seems unreasonable to punish a white male Southerner of that era for voicing such opinions, however poorly they may play on a wider international stage; similarly it doesn't feel right to be moved to want to see Mono censured and censored for being a filthy Chinese bureaucrat; we've all known him to be such, it is only that just now international events push the more disgusting, avaricious, self-aggrandizing and cravenly myopic aspects of his nature to the forefront.
A low tier civil service office drone is hardly an elite :P
And elites don't like anime.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 01, 2014, 04:15:52 AM
Ugh. Can't one of the mods give this guy a "break" until the protesters break up or are broken up?
That's kind of an overreaction. Mono has his POV, we have ours. Chill.
You've made a successful argument through the entire thread that most people can't obtain what you have, and the fact that the civil service is so exclusive and closed-off is a major source of this current resentment. It's a bit late to be backtracking from the stance that you are firmly in the elitist camp.
Although I will readily concede your anime taste is pretty plebian.
Monoriu strikes me as valuing stability and consistency more than almost anything else. I think that's at the root of his contempt for the protesters rather than any class/wealth divide. Anybody who rocks the boat is detested.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F444.hu%2Fassets%2Fhongkong_small.gif&hash=c07e7053a1c398f9a68a5928546591e383a7ba4a)
http://444.hu/assets/hongkong_small.gif
If people were protesting in front of your home and work you wouldn't like them any more than mono. It's not like the occupy walstreet or g8 protestors got much love
Our Hillary. :wub:
Quote from: HVC on October 01, 2014, 09:32:08 AM
If people were protesting in front of your home and work you wouldn't like them any more than mono. It's not like the occupy walstreet or g8 protestors got much love
I don't recall OWS having coherent aims.
Quote from: HVC on October 01, 2014, 09:32:08 AM
If people were protesting in front of your home and work you wouldn't like them any more than mono. It's not like the occupy walstreet or g8 protestors got much love
but they weren't protesting a communist gov then.
Personally I have no intention to censor Mono. I value his point of view, even as I find some of his ways of expressing it extremely distasteful. But honestly... what he's saying here isn't particularly off for many posts here on different subjects, even if there perhaps is some sort of ironic veneer of "humour".
But this...
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 01, 2014, 08:57:27 AM
Were this the 1960s, I wonder if Languish would be calling for bans on me for despicable pro-segregationist rhetoric? It seems unreasonable to punish a white male Southerner of that era for voicing such opinions, however poorly they may play on a wider international stage;
... just fuck off.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 01, 2014, 06:09:06 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 05:09:32 AM
Maybe after the crackdown and the replacement of the Hong Kong Bureaucracy by those deemed more loyal (I.E. not having a British passport), you can get a job driving a cab.
In Canada. :yeah:
Uber is now in Toronto and is coming to Vancouver so he will have to go to Calgary to drive a cab.
Quote from: Jacob on October 01, 2014, 09:57:08 AM
... just fuck off.
Did that seriously piss you off? Why do you let him get in your head like that?
Quote from: derspiess on October 01, 2014, 10:04:11 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 01, 2014, 09:57:08 AM
... just fuck off.
Did that seriously piss you off? Why do you let him get in your head like that?
Haha no, no pissing off. Just a "this is a complete waste of time and bankrupt in every way, but I can't be bothered coming up with a clever way to dismiss it so 'just fuck off' will have to do."
Thanks for the concern, though :hug:
Ignoring it also works :P
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 01, 2014, 09:36:12 AM
Our Hillary. :wub:
i blame my phone. That's my story and I'm sticking to it
A Japanese friend of mine has posted a photo of a demonstration in Tokyo in support of the Honk Kong protesters.
I get the feeling that's not gonna help...
Quote from: derspiess on October 01, 2014, 10:11:33 AM
Ignoring it also works :P
Very true, and usually my default approach.
I don't typically tire myself espousing pro-Southern rhetoric on languish, being rather more content to enjoy my idyllic lifestyle and limit any political activity to informing my wife what her political opinions are. I merely saw parallels in Mono's reactionary provincialism.
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 01, 2014, 10:57:31 AM
informing my wife what her political opinions are.
:lol: :thumbsup:
Short video segment (on FB, so you may need to be signed in): https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=896656430359490&fref=nf
Edit: here's a non FB (and stabilized) version: http://imgur.com/wBTmWii
Interesting article on the dynamics in HK: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/30/china-hong-kong-future-protesters-cry-democracy - it's fairly Mono aligned, without the spite.
Quote from: Jacob on October 01, 2014, 11:05:44 AM
Edit: here's a non FB (and stabilized) version: http://imgur.com/wBTmWii
The commentors can't agree on whether this is HK or Venezuela.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 01, 2014, 01:01:25 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 01, 2014, 11:05:44 AM
Edit: here's a non FB (and stabilized) version: http://imgur.com/wBTmWii
The commentors can't agree on whether this is HK or Venezuela.
Hahaha!
Meanwhile, news are filtering into China: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/world/asia/hong-kong-protest.html?_r=1
I think what's going on in HK is a pretty significant indicator - and test - for China's leadership.
We have it from Mono - and others - that the economic prospects for many if not most Hong Kong residents are less bright than they were in the past. This is being channelled into political protests, and while not universally supported, there's enough support that it's a big deal.
China itself, on the mainland, may well face similar forces if its economy slows down. If large parts of the Chinese population feels it doesn't have a future to work towards, how will they react? Calling for political reforms is not unlikely, and it will likely be less orderly than what's going on in HK right now.
EWH is an ETF that tracks the Hang Seng in the US market. In case anyone cares. :ph34r:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 01, 2014, 02:14:31 PM
EWH is an ETF that tracks the Hang Seng in the US market.
Bmo! :w00t:
I, for one, support welcoming into the U.S. any HK residents who are dissatisfied with their future prospects.
Especially if they are female and cute. :P
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2014, 10:28:10 AM
A Japanese friend of mine has posted a photo of a demonstration in Tokyo in support of the Honk Kong protesters.
I get the feeling that's not gonna help...
They do sympathy demonstrations in New York like every day. I guess it makes people feel like they're doing something.
Quote from: derspiess on October 01, 2014, 04:06:38 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2014, 10:28:10 AM
A Japanese friend of mine has posted a photo of a demonstration in Tokyo in support of the Honk Kong protesters.
I get the feeling that's not gonna help...
They do sympathy demonstrations in New York like every day. I guess it makes people feel like they're doing something.
It was more in the sense of enabling the HK protesters to be painted as Japanese/US puppets.
Ah.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 01, 2014, 04:15:52 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 30, 2014, 05:24:45 PM
I am afraid that you'll have to stop reading them instead :contract:
Ugh. Can't one of the mods give this guy a "break" until the protesters break up or are broken up?
Mono, you do realize you've successfully pissed off a significant portion of the forum, right? We joke a lot, but at some level, we at least respect that people can have problems with the government and have the right to "shake things up" to get those problems redressed. Your inability to think past your own wallet is pretty disgusting. Hell, you even talk about the protests ending in terms of wage shortfalls.
I know this is going to shock you, but there are people to whom having a working government means more than having a steady paycheck. Crowing that eventually the army's going to crack down on these people for (mostly) peacefully insisting that their problems are addressed? Stay classy, Mono.
Lighten up Francis.
Quote from: derspiess on October 01, 2014, 04:06:38 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 01, 2014, 10:28:10 AM
A Japanese friend of mine has posted a photo of a demonstration in Tokyo in support of the Honk Kong protesters.
I get the feeling that's not gonna help...
They do sympathy demonstrations in New York like every day.
:hmm:
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 01, 2014, 05:05:56 PM
Lighten up Francis.
Alright, I apologize for asking for a ban. Mono's still pissing me off, though, and I've been in no mood lately for anybody's crap.
You almost got Sgt. Hulka staring at you.
The daughter of CY Leung (the Chief Executive of Hong Kong) allegedly made public Facebook posts that "HK taxpayers are funding my pretty shoes and dresses".
http://hongkong.coconuts.co/2014/10/01/cy-leungs-daughter-hong-kong-taxpayers-fund-my-beautiful-shoes-and-dresses
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia2.coconuts.co%2Ffield%2Fimage%2Fscreenshots_2014-10-01_at_5.18.17_pm.jpg&hash=df5a0f011d2e623b290041f08a667d8b60199e62)
Impeccable timing.
Oddly, Mono's perspective of the protesters is not widely shared. :hmm:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/10/occupy_central_s_polite_protesters_the_hong_kong_demonstrators_are_disciplined.html
QuoteThe World's Politest Protesters
The Occupy Central demonstrators are courteous. That's actually what makes them so dangerous.
The protest movement that has sprung to life in Hong Kong now represents the most serious challenge to Beijing's authority since the Tiananmen protests of 1989. Beijing is obviously worried: Earlier this week it banned the photo-sharing site Instagram and ramped up censorship on the popular Chinese social media site Sina Weibo to unprecedented levels.
But while the threat to Beijing's power is real, the danger isn't evident on Hong Kong streets: Rather than presenting scenes of smashed shops or violent confrontations with the police—the sort of images we have grown accustomed to in Cairo, Ukraine, and other sites of popular protests against oppressive regimes—the photos from central Hong Kong show smiling students sitting around doing their homework, passing out donations of food, and meticulously picking up litter—even sorting out the recyclables. What, then, is different about these Hong Kong demonstrators? And how might their almost exaggerated politeness help them against the notoriously severe Chinese Communist Party?
The answers to these questions can be found in the appropriately titled "Manual of Disobedience." Published online several days before the Occupy Central campaign was set to begin, the document (written in Chinese and English) is part how-to guide and part philosophical mission statement. It details the movement's tactics, the rules for nonviolent protest, the legal codes that may be violated, and the exact procedure to follow should someone be arrested. It also implores protesters to "avoid physical confrontation, but also to avoid developing hatred in [their] heart," and explains that the protests must be a model of the values that they are striving to see in their society, namely "equality, tolerance, love, and care." The protesters understand that these values will not only help win over sympathizers, but lay bare the illegitimacy of the regime if it moves against them with excessive force. These aren't youthful idealists; these are savvy political operators who understand the secrets of successful nonviolent resistance.
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The proof of this fact is playing out in the streets of Hong Kong right now. After the protesters' first attempt to block the financial district was met with volleys of teargas from riot police, the people in the street did not fight back, leaving society shocked and emboldened by the authorities' outrageous use of force. The next day, thousands more people turned up with signs supporting the students, condemning police tactics, and calling for the resignation of Hong Kong leader C.Y. Leung. Although it may seem obvious that a protest movement must win popular support to combat oppression, it is no easy feat, and something we have seen movements in dozens of countries fail to accomplish. The staunch adherence to nonviolence Occupy Central has demonstrated takes preparation, training, and discipline—a combination that's very rare for many movements.
Most of the time, organizers aren't prepared to handle the crowds that surge into the streets, and with no way to maintain calm and cohesion, too many movements have been derailed by a few thrown rocks or smashed storefronts. Governments seize on the smallest acts of disorder or violence as excuses to crack down. However, Occupy Central's organizers seem to have come prepared. By issuing the manual and attempting to train their activists, they have maintained a united front and warded off the pitfalls that plague too many social movements.
Quote from: HVC on October 01, 2014, 09:32:08 AM
If people were protesting in front of your home and work you wouldn't like them any more than mono. It's not like the occupy walstreet or g8 protestors got much love
They did from me -_-
Well ok I generally am not a fan of the G8 guys.
Quote from: Jacob on October 01, 2014, 08:21:27 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia2.coconuts.co%2Ffield%2Fimage%2Fscreenshots_2014-10-01_at_5.18.17_pm.jpg&hash=df5a0f011d2e623b290041f08a667d8b60199e62)
Would not hit.
Her English is quite good though.
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 01, 2014, 04:00:58 PM
I, for one, support welcoming into the U.S. any HK residents who are dissatisfied with their future prospects.
The UK would if it had any decency at all. Never too late to do the right thing British Empire, even post-mortem.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 01, 2014, 08:49:48 PM
Her English is quite good though.
This is HK. Everybody's English is supposed to be good.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 01, 2014, 09:39:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 01, 2014, 08:49:48 PM
Her English is quite good though.
This is HK. Everybody's English is supposed to be good.
And since she's the daughter of a rich, well-connected businessman she probably went to university, and quite possibly high school too, in an English speaking country.
More gooder.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 01, 2014, 07:45:35 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 01, 2014, 05:05:56 PM
Lighten up Francis.
Alright, I apologize for asking for a ban. Mono's still pissing me off, though, and I've been in no mood lately for anybody's crap.
:hug:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 01, 2014, 02:14:31 PM
EWH is an ETF that tracks the Hang Seng in the US market. In case anyone cares. :ph34r:
The Hang Seng is closed right now due to two consecutive mid-week holidays. The markets will reopen tomorrow. I plan to buy :showoff:
Quote from: Jacob on October 01, 2014, 09:42:00 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 01, 2014, 09:39:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 01, 2014, 08:49:48 PM
Her English is quite good though.
This is HK. Everybody's English is supposed to be good.
And since she's the daughter of a rich, well-connected businessman she probably went to university, and quite possibly high school too, in an English speaking country.
Yes. But even those who don't attend school in an English speaking country have good English skills. It all depends on what school they attend. The elite schools are very good at providing English training.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 01, 2014, 09:42:04 PM
More gooder.
Tip: she loves her father but hates her mother.
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 01, 2014, 04:00:58 PM
I, for one, support welcoming into the U.S. any HK residents who are dissatisfied with their future prospects.
Especially if they are female and cute. :P
History has shown that this won't happen. We begged Thatcher to give us citizenship, but she refused.
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 01, 2014, 08:57:27 AM
While I find Mono's rhetoric to be reprehensible, I'm leery of the requests to crack down on him. His opinion is a rancorous one, but it is representative of the embattled elites of Hong Kong. He is being true to his class and section by being so despicable.
Were this the 1960s, I wonder if Languish would be calling for bans on me for despicable pro-segregationist rhetoric? It seems unreasonable to punish a white male Southerner of that era for voicing such opinions, however poorly they may play on a wider international stage; similarly it doesn't feel right to be moved to want to see Mono censured and censored for being a filthy Chinese bureaucrat; we've all known him to be such, it is only that just now international events push the more disgusting, avaricious, self-aggrandizing and cravenly myopic aspects of his nature to the forefront.
That's nothing compared to what we would have done to you in 1860's. :lol: Are you even a segregationist? You are going to marry a Japanese chick. That probably wouldn't fly well in 1960's South. Or 1860's.
The Japanese are honorary Aryans. Hitler said so. :)
I don't think the South was overly concerned with with bizarre race theories. You were white cause you looked white. Hell, the confederate Secretary of State and later War was Jewish.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 11:17:29 PM
I don't think the South was overly concerned with with bizarre race theories. You were white cause you looked white. Hell, the confederate Secretary of State and later War was Jewish.
Not until Jim Crow codified it with the one-drop-rule. That made alot of white people black.
The HK government's strategy is to wait the rioters out, and launch verbal attacks on them every day. The rioters on the other hand demand the Chief Executive's resignation before any dialogue. Beijing has launched its PR machine to support the Chief Executive politically, meaning a resignation will not come, and the National Congress will not change its decision on HK's election rules. As long as there is no dialogue or settlement, the rioters will be in an increasingly vulnerable position. Grumbles from the rest of the population are on the rise. Parents complain that their children can't go to school (many schools have been closed), businesses are complaining about lost revenue, many workers are saying their income has been reduced. The rioters attempt to spread the occupy movement to other districts, but in at least one instance was booed off.
Senior government officials are seen boosting morale among front line policemen.
In other words, the rioters have taken Moscow. They expect to dictate peace, but none is coming. Meanwhile, winter is coming.
I find the use of the term "rioters" questionable, as the protestors have so far gone out of their way to be peaceful and friendly. Hell, they're even picking up their trash and keeping the streets clean, which is more than can be said about the NY Occupy crowd. They're poster children for non-rioting protests.
First comment from senior Chinese officials stationed in HK on the riots: the Sun rises normally. The People's Daily, the #1 newspaper of the communists, praises the HK Chief Executive's work. The Central TV chanel gives air time to a speech made by the Chief Executive on National Day - a very rare arrangement because such air time is usually reserved for top 7 politburo standing committee officials. A senior communist official has likened HK's situation as the "battle for HK's sovereignty, and on matters of national sovereignty, there is no room to back down".
Quote from: Syt on October 02, 2014, 02:52:22 AM
I find the use of the term "rioters" questionable, as the protestors have so far gone out of their way to be peaceful and friendly. Hell, they're even picking up their trash and keeping the streets clean, which is more than can be said about the NY Occupy crowd. They're poster children for non-rioting protests.
As long as they continue to operate on key public roads without police permit, I will continue to regard them as such.
I find the progression of the democratic movement in HK interesting.
In the 90s, the Democratic Party was the most popular party. These are "old school" type people who do things by the book. Marches, sit-ins, protests, signature campaigns, slogans, more welfare for the people, participation in all elections, willing to make deals with Beijing when necessary.
In 2003, the Civic Party emerged. The core consists of well-known barristers. Idealistic, principled, human rights in every other sentence, upper-middle class. No deals with Beijing.
Starting from 2010 or so, the "people's power" types came. They throw things at government officials (without hitting them), engage in filibustering, interupts speeches, wears Che Guevara t-shirts to meetings.
And now we have this. The question is, what's next?
Quote from: Razgovory on October 01, 2014, 10:05:16 PM
That's nothing compared to what we would have done to you in 1860's. :lol: Are you even a segregationist? You are going to marry a Japanese chick. That probably wouldn't fly well in 1960's South. Or 1860's.
Going to? The woman has, for the better part of a year now, been an addition to my house and my diligent attendant.
In any event, I believe in an autonomist segregation that gives black law enforcement control over black districts, decriminalizes many 'crimes' that are a part of the african-american cultural continuity, without holding them to the exacting standards that might be expected of a white citizen. At the same time, black communities should receive substantial financial subsidy from their white neighbors. Black Southerners should of course have access to the wider commonality of the South, but should be punished publicly and severely when their cultural enrichment leaks out of generously specified areas and they threaten decent society.
Segregation, as it previously existed, was an oppressive tool wielded by a fearful people. Black Southerners are our countrymen; they need decriminalization, the dole, and good shepherding. Expecting the black man not to get in petty fights, use recreational drugs, indulge in public intoxication, or indeed expecting him to hold a regular job, is an unreasonable barrier to his entry in our society.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 02, 2014, 02:52:22 AM
I find the use of the term "rioters" questionable, as the protestors have so far gone out of their way to be peaceful and friendly. Hell, they're even picking up their trash and keeping the streets clean, which is more than can be said about the NY Occupy crowd. They're poster children for non-rioting protests.
As long as they continue to operate on key public roads without police permit, I will continue to regard them as such.
And you will continue to be objectively wrong.
You're exactly the kind of person who would have denounced the marches of Gandhi and Martin Luther King.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 02, 2014, 03:31:25 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 02, 2014, 02:52:22 AM
I find the use of the term "rioters" questionable, as the protestors have so far gone out of their way to be peaceful and friendly. Hell, they're even picking up their trash and keeping the streets clean, which is more than can be said about the NY Occupy crowd. They're poster children for non-rioting protests.
As long as they continue to operate on key public roads without police permit, I will continue to regard them as such.
And you will continue to be objectively wrong.
You're exactly the kind of person who would have denounced the marches of Gandhi and Martin Luther King.
Both destroyers of the Status Quo. :angry:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 02, 2014, 03:31:25 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 02, 2014, 02:52:22 AM
I find the use of the term "rioters" questionable, as the protestors have so far gone out of their way to be peaceful and friendly. Hell, they're even picking up their trash and keeping the streets clean, which is more than can be said about the NY Occupy crowd. They're poster children for non-rioting protests.
As long as they continue to operate on key public roads without police permit, I will continue to regard them as such.
And you will continue to be objectively wrong.
You're exactly the kind of person who would have denounced the marches of Gandhi and Martin Luther King.
Occupying key roads indefinitely hurts others in the population. It is akin to taking society hostage. I for one do not find this acceptable. There are other legal channels to protest.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 04:25:43 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 02, 2014, 03:31:25 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 02, 2014, 02:52:22 AM
I find the use of the term "rioters" questionable, as the protestors have so far gone out of their way to be peaceful and friendly. Hell, they're even picking up their trash and keeping the streets clean, which is more than can be said about the NY Occupy crowd. They're poster children for non-rioting protests.
As long as they continue to operate on key public roads without police permit, I will continue to regard them as such.
And you will continue to be objectively wrong.
You're exactly the kind of person who would have denounced the marches of Gandhi and Martin Luther King.
Occupying key roads indefinitely hurts others in the population. It is akin to taking society hostage. I for one do not find this acceptable. There are other legal channels to protest.
That's not rioting though.
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 05:30:37 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 04:25:43 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 02, 2014, 03:31:25 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 02, 2014, 02:52:22 AM
I find the use of the term "rioters" questionable, as the protestors have so far gone out of their way to be peaceful and friendly. Hell, they're even picking up their trash and keeping the streets clean, which is more than can be said about the NY Occupy crowd. They're poster children for non-rioting protests.
As long as they continue to operate on key public roads without police permit, I will continue to regard them as such.
And you will continue to be objectively wrong.
You're exactly the kind of person who would have denounced the marches of Gandhi and Martin Luther King.
Occupying key roads indefinitely hurts others in the population. It is akin to taking society hostage. I for one do not find this acceptable. There are other legal channels to protest.
That's not rioting though.
I saw them attack police lines last Sunday.
Rioters' deadline for the Chief Executive to resign is this midnight. Afterwards they will picket key government buildings. Police have transported dozens of boxes of ammunition to inside the Chief Executive's office. We have been ordered to report to work at government HQs tomorrow. I will comply.
I just hope the PRC dont crush Hong Kong and i totslly missed all my chances to visit
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 05:45:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 05:30:37 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 04:25:43 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 02, 2014, 03:31:25 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 02, 2014, 02:52:22 AM
I find the use of the term "rioters" questionable, as the protestors have so far gone out of their way to be peaceful and friendly. Hell, they're even picking up their trash and keeping the streets clean, which is more than can be said about the NY Occupy crowd. They're poster children for non-rioting protests.
As long as they continue to operate on key public roads without police permit, I will continue to regard them as such.
And you will continue to be objectively wrong.
You're exactly the kind of person who would have denounced the marches of Gandhi and Martin Luther King.
Occupying key roads indefinitely hurts others in the population. It is akin to taking society hostage. I for one do not find this acceptable. There are other legal channels to protest.
That's not rioting though.
I saw them attack police lines last Sunday.
Riots general involve a fair amount of violence and vandalism*. Is that an accurate way of describing what you have seen?
*and to clarify that is on the part of the rioters, not the police. :P
Quote from: Tyr on October 02, 2014, 05:58:59 AM
I just hope the PRC dont crush Hong Kong and i totslly missed all my chances to visit
Beijing recovered after 1989, despite the worst predictions then. We will rebound from this too. At least, I will return to work no matter what. Even if I see PLA tanks on the streets, I will go back to work. Unless they fire me first, of course (in both sense of the word) :lol:
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 06:02:04 AM
Riots general involve a fair amount of violence and vandalism*. Is that an accurate way of describing what you have seen?
*and to clarify that is on the part of the rioters, not the police. :P
Definitely. I saw them charge police with umbrellas. I see them create road blocks. I see them prevent others from using roads. That fits my criteria.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 06:05:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 06:02:04 AM
Riots general involve a fair amount of violence and vandalism*. Is that an accurate way of describing what you have seen?
*and to clarify that is on the part of the rioters, not the police. :P
Definitely. I saw them charge police with umbrellas. I see them create road blocks. I see them prevent others from using roads. That fits my criteria.
Only one of those things can be described as violent.
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 06:09:32 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 06:05:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 06:02:04 AM
Riots general involve a fair amount of violence and vandalism*. Is that an accurate way of describing what you have seen?
*and to clarify that is on the part of the rioters, not the police. :P
Definitely. I saw them charge police with umbrellas. I see them create road blocks. I see them prevent others from using roads. That fits my criteria.
Only one of those things can be described as violent.
Hey, you can call them whatever you want. They will always be rioters in my mind.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 06:11:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 06:09:32 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 06:05:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 06:02:04 AM
Riots general involve a fair amount of violence and vandalism*. Is that an accurate way of describing what you have seen?
*and to clarify that is on the part of the rioters, not the police. :P
Definitely. I saw them charge police with umbrellas. I see them create road blocks. I see them prevent others from using roads. That fits my criteria.
Only one of those things can be described as violent.
Hey, you can call them whatever you want. They will always be rioters in my mind.
As Tim said just be aware that you are using the wrong terminology.
People have analysed the labels of the boxes that police got into government HQs. Rubber bullets.
Also for your sake, I hope you never have to deal with actual rioting.
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 06:13:19 AM
Also for your sake, I hope you never have to deal with actual rioting.
Anything can happen in the next few weeks. I won't be surprised if I see PLA tanks on the streets, or the communists sending a few divisions of armed police to HK, or the rioters turning even more violent, or the HK police using rubber bullets.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 02, 2014, 03:31:25 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 02:58:33 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 02, 2014, 02:52:22 AM
I find the use of the term "rioters" questionable, as the protestors have so far gone out of their way to be peaceful and friendly. Hell, they're even picking up their trash and keeping the streets clean, which is more than can be said about the NY Occupy crowd. They're poster children for non-rioting protests.
As long as they continue to operate on key public roads without police permit, I will continue to regard them as such.
And you will continue to be objectively wrong.
You're exactly the kind of person who would have denounced the marches of Gandhi and Martin Luther King.
Well said.
I don't know why people are on Mono's case for using "rioters" incorrectly. Its clear that he is misusing the word because it has such a high emotive content, and it suits his sense of outrage to use emotionally charged words, even incorrectly.
He can no more be convinced to use language accurately than any other commie can. All commies lie through language choice. We all know it, so it doesn't fool anyone, and it makes him feel better. So, just roll with the whole "rioter" thing.
Quote from: grumbler on October 02, 2014, 07:05:28 AM
I don't know why people are on Mono's case for using "rioters" incorrectly. Its clear that he is misusing the word because it has such a high emotive content, and it suits his sense of outrage to use emotionally charged words, even incorrectly.
He can no more be convinced to use language accurately than any other commie can. All commies lie through language choice. We all know it, so it doesn't fool anyone, and it makes him feel better. So, just roll with the whole "rioter" thing.
I'm generally not a fan of bald faced lying.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 02:57:53 AM
First comment from senior Chinese officials stationed in HK on the riots: the Sun rises normally.
Time to get drunk and watch a bullfight. :beer:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 04:25:43 AM
Occupying key roads indefinitely hurts others in the population. It is akin to taking society hostage. I for one do not find this acceptable. There are other legal channels to protest.
"Rioters" specifically implies violence. You're wrong.
It seems to me there's a strong possibility they've already exhausted the "legal channels" and found them to be a placebo- might feel a bit better for having taken it, but it doesn't actually resolve anything. The more you talk about these "legal channels" without pointing to specific, significant examples of success in using those channels, the more convinced I am that's exactly what's going on, and the "legal channels" you keep referring to are really just a relief valve to keep your society complacent with the status quo.
Quote from: grumbler on October 02, 2014, 07:05:28 AM
I don't know why people are on Mono's case for using "rioters" incorrectly. Its clear that he is misusing the word because it has such a high emotive content, and it suits his sense of outrage to use emotionally charged words, even incorrectly.
He can no more be convinced to use language accurately than any other commie can. All commies lie through language choice. We all know it, so it doesn't fool anyone, and it makes him feel better. So, just roll with the whole "rioter" thing.
Seriously? Coming from the king of picking apart arguments based on an ambiguous parsing? :lol:
We're just following your example, Grumbles. Be proud.
Isn't blocking roads a form of violence? Using force does not always mean broken bones.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 12:34:06 PM
Isn't blocking roads a form of violence? Using force does not always mean broken bones.
How is it different than blocking entrances to a building or seating within a restaurant?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 12:34:06 PM
Isn't blocking roads a form of violence? Using force does not always mean broken bones.
Surely the means by which a road is blocked determines whether the act is violent or not. Shooting anyone who attempts to cross is violent. Sitting and singing songs is not.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 02, 2014, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 12:34:06 PM
Isn't blocking roads a form of violence? Using force does not always mean broken bones.
Surely the means by which a road is blocked determines whether the act is violent or not. Shooting anyone who attempts to cross is violent. Sitting and singing songs is not.
Right. What the hell, MIM?
Quote from: grumbler on October 02, 2014, 07:05:28 AM
I don't know why people are on Mono's case for using "rioters" incorrectly. Its clear that he is misusing the word because it has such a high emotive content, and it suits his sense of outrage to use emotionally charged words, even incorrectly.
He can no more be convinced to use language accurately than any other commie can. All commies lie through language choice. We all know it, so it doesn't fool anyone, and it makes him feel better. So, just roll with the whole "rioter" thing.
Mono isn't a communist. His philosophy is simply "Well I'm on board, haul up the lifeboats". You know, like a libertarian. Just replace "libertarian" with "commie" and the sentence makes sense.
IDK, I don't really get it. I mean, what would you guys consider it wrong to obstruct. What if a crowd blocked your house so you couldn't enter/exit? What if they blocked your kid from returning home from school? What if people thought you were too fat so they blocked your refrigerator? How about peacefully blocking the roads and rails so no food could enter a city, would that be acceptable?
I have a really sharp conscience when it comes to inconveniencing others, I will admit. So maybe I'm not really on the same page.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 12:34:06 PM
Isn't blocking roads a form of violence? Using force does not always mean broken bones.
Violence can be employed to blockade a road, but it's not a form of violence in and of itself. :wacko:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 01:03:02 PM
IDK, I don't really get it. I mean, what would you guys consider it wrong to obstruct. What if a crowd blocked your house so you couldn't enter/exit? What if they blocked your kid from returning home from school? What if people thought you were too fat so they blocked your refrigerator? How about peacefully blocking the roads and rails so no food could enter a city, would that be acceptable?
I have a really sharp conscience when it comes to inconveniencing others, I will admit. So maybe I'm not really on the same page.
All that's well and good but how is that violence? I hate Critical Mass but it isn't violence.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 02, 2014, 12:44:52 PM
Mono isn't a communist. His philosophy is simply "Well I'm on board, haul up the lifeboats". You know, like a libertarian. Just replace "libertarian" with "commie" and the sentence makes sense.
Yes, libertarians love authoritarian governments. IIRC from another discussion, they are closet fascists or something.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 01:03:02 PM
IDK, I don't really get it. I mean, what would you guys consider it wrong to obstruct. What if a crowd blocked your house so you couldn't enter/exit? What if they blocked your kid from returning home from school? What if people thought you were too fat so they blocked your refrigerator? How about peacefully blocking the roads and rails so no food could enter a city, would that be acceptable?
I have a really sharp conscience when it comes to inconveniencing others, I will admit. So maybe I'm not really on the same page.
Violence is not necessary for us to consider an act wrong.
I'm curious what the long term worst case scenario is.
Beijing taking control and Hong Kong becoming a Cantonese Shanghai?
Quote from: alfred russel on October 02, 2014, 01:41:52 PM
I'm curious what the long term worst case scenario is.
Beijing taking control and Hong Kong becoming a Cantonese Shanghai?
Worst case scenario for whom?
There already is a Cantonese Shanghai. It's Shanghai. :P
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2014, 03:22:47 PM
There already is a Cantonese Shanghai. It's Shanghai. :P
:huh:
There's nothing Cantonese about Shanghai.
They don't speak Cantonese in Shanghai? :huh:
How the heck did we get "Canton" from "Guangzhou" anyway? :hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2014, 03:28:01 PM
They don't speak Cantonese in Shanghai? :huh:
No. They speak Shanghainese - a totally different dialect - and there's an ongoing struggle between Mandarin newcomers (and the central government), trying to make Mandarin the standard language there. The Shanghainese are pretty attached to their dialect however. They also, without a doubt, think they're better than the Cantonese (and all other Chinese, for that matter).
There's like two or three dialect regions between the Cantonese speaking region and Shanghai:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dartmouth.edu%2F%7Echinese%2Fmaps%2Fmap4_b.gif&hash=8e34f49f2a7365a4dcd439b5d276097bafd03ca1)
Okey dokey.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 02, 2014, 03:33:45 PM
How the heck did we get "Canton" from "Guangzhou" anyway? :hmm:
Different transliteration systems via different languages, with some newcomer geographical confusion thrown in.
According to Wikipedia:
Quote from: wikipediaIt is believed that the romanisation "Canton" originated from the Portuguese: Cantão, which was transcribed from Guangdong. Nevertheless, because at the time of the Portuguese arrival, the capital city had no specific appellation other than the provincial capital (Chinese: 省城; pinyin: shěng chéng; Jyutping: Shaang2 Sheng4) by its people, the province name was adopted for the walled city by the Europeans. The etymology of Canton, as well as the similar pronunciation with the province name Guangdong might have partly contributed to the recent confusion of Canton and Guangdong by certain English speakers.
Yeah, trying to say "Guangdong" and coming up with Canton makes more sense, especially considering our inconsistency at transliterating t and d (have seen Daoism mentioned frequently).
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 01:26:13 PM
All that's well and good but how is that violence? I hate Critical Mass but it isn't violence.
Would a siege be considered violence if nobody hit anybody, merely starved them?
I'm having trouble with this. The MW dictionary says violence and force are synonyms, but the definitions are not exactly the same. Blocking a street is definitely force. Is there such a thing as non-violent force? If so, is it appropriate to use non-violent force to harm others when not in self-defense?
A siege would be considered violence because of the implicit threat to bash anyone trying to bring food in.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 02, 2014, 01:41:52 PM
I'm curious what the long term worst case scenario is.
Beijing taking control and Hong Kong becoming a Cantonese Shanghai?
Yeah, Beijing declaring that mainland laws taking effect in HK, and the PLA stepping in would be the worst case scenario. Death of One Country, Two Systems. Communist party officials from the mainland become my bosses. Internet censorship and the rest.
But even the best case scenario doesn't look good. Even if the rioters leave tomorrow voluntarily and nothing really bad happens, HK is approaching ungovernable. I don't see the pan-democrats cooperating with the government in any way. They'll go out of the way to obstruct every step of the way until Beijing grants true elections, which won't happen. These occupy movements may return any time something comes up.
No idea where you get the notion of a Cantonese Shanghai :lol:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 04:05:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 01:26:13 PM
All that's well and good but how is that violence? I hate Critical Mass but it isn't violence.
Would a siege be considered violence if nobody hit anybody, merely starved them?
I'm having trouble with this. The MW dictionary says violence and force are synonyms, but the definitions are not exactly the same. Blocking a street is definitely force. Is there such a thing as non-violent force? If so, is it appropriate to use non-violent force to harm others when not in self-defense?
So if police cordon off my street, they've been violent?
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 04:23:43 PM
So if police cordon off my street, they've been violent?
Yeah. It's the job of the police to use force on our behalf. Blocking your street would be an example of that.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 04:33:20 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 04:23:43 PM
So if police cordon off my street, they've been violent?
Yeah. It's the job of the police to use force on our behalf. Blocking your street would be an example of that.
Yeah no, that's not violence. Perhaps there is implied violence if I moved to walk down the street but at the moment that they are just cordoning, not at all.
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 04:34:56 PM
Yeah no, that's not violence. Perhaps there is implied violence if I moved to walk down the street but at the moment that they are just cordoning, not at all.
That's why I asked if there is such a thing as non-violent force. Your answer would be yes. I assume.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 04:35:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 04:34:56 PM
Yeah no, that's not violence. Perhaps there is implied violence if I moved to walk down the street but at the moment that they are just cordoning, not at all.
That's why I asked if there is such a thing as non-violent force. Your answer would be yes. I assume.
I would say it is a mistake to say violence = force. There's a reason they are different words.
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 04:38:36 PM
I would say it is a mistake to say violence = force. There's a reason they are different words.
I think so too. I was confused by the synonym link there. It's too tenuous.
I guess my main thing is that my worldview says to never harm another human being outside of self-defense. Some people seem to be advocating that it's ok to harm others as long as it's not physically hitting them.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 04:46:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2014, 04:38:36 PM
I would say it is a mistake to say violence = force. There's a reason they are different words.
I think so too. I was confused by the synonym link there. It's too tenuous.
I guess my main thing is that my worldview says to never harm another human being outside of self-defense. Some people seem to be advocating that it's ok to harm others as long as it's not physically hitting them.
Not being able to drive down a street seems like an inconvenience, not harm. Else parades and movie sets harm me on the regular. :D
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 04:46:13 PM
I guess my main thing is that my worldview says to never harm another human being outside of self-defense. Some people seem to be advocating that it's ok to harm others as long as it's not physically hitting them.
It is okay to harm some people if the motives are right (e.g. if a reasonable person would agree to be harmed if they were fully informed of the benefit). I am harmed by laws against jaywalking. And yet, i accept the harm because i am aware of the benefits such harms brings in general (it doesn't prevent me from being hit, but it might save others). I can be harmed by the exercise of eminent domain to expand the road outside my house, and yet a reasonable person would agree that the harm inflicted was justified by the overall benefits gained.
The Chief Executive said in front of camera directly that he will not resign. People's Daily says the central government will not move an inch on HK's electoral system. Basically, that's a direct rejection of the two key demands of the rioters.
The rioters have dropped their demand that the Chief Executive must resign before any dialogue. The #2 official in the HK government will therefore meet with student representatives.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 04:23:37 PM
No idea where you get the notion of a Cantonese Shanghai :lol:
Shanghai is a leading global city in the world under the control of the PRC.
Quote from: derspiess on October 02, 2014, 01:28:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 02, 2014, 12:44:52 PM
Mono isn't a communist. His philosophy is simply "Well I'm on board, haul up the lifeboats". You know, like a libertarian. Just replace "libertarian" with "commie" and the sentence makes sense.
Yes, libertarians love authoritarian governments. IIRC from another discussion, they are closet fascists or something.
If it means preserving free markets and preventing extensive welfare states. I remember Hans posting a National Review OP Ed on Hong Kong decrying the democracy movement since democracy would lead to the erosion of free market principles.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 02, 2014, 01:03:02 PM
IDK, I don't really get it. I mean, what would you guys consider it wrong to obstruct. What if a crowd blocked your house so you couldn't enter/exit? What if they blocked your kid from returning home from school? What if people thought you were too fat so they blocked your refrigerator? How about peacefully blocking the roads and rails so no food could enter a city, would that be acceptable?
I have a really sharp conscience when it comes to inconveniencing others, I will admit. So maybe I'm not really on the same page.
Whether it is "wrong" is a separate question from whether it is violent. If people were restricted to protesting in a manner that never inconvenienced anyone then there really couldnt be such a thing as non violent civil disobedience. And without that the chances of violence would likely be much greater.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 02, 2014, 05:51:57 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 04:23:37 PM
No idea where you get the notion of a Cantonese Shanghai :lol:
Shanghai is a leading global city in the world under the control of the PRC.
I am aware of that, just don't know where the "Cantonese" fits in all this :D
BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations. This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 09:09:47 PM
BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations. This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.
Don't worry, they won't roll in the tanks unless it embarrasses the CCP to a point they won't tolerate. Until then, it'll stay with the cops.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 09:09:47 PM
BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations. This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.
Mono's tired of all this bullshit
They keep selling him on T.V.
About the Chi-communist plan
But now the Hong Kong dollar rules everybody's lives
Gotta make a million doesn't matter who dies
Umbrella Revolution calling
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 02, 2014, 09:27:43 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 09:09:47 PM
BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations. This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.
Don't worry, they won't roll in the tanks unless it embarrasses the CCP to a point they won't tolerate. Until then, it'll stay with the cops.
I think the chance of Beijing intervening and sending troops is real, and is increasing. The possibility of them using tanks is almost non-existant though. The reason they had to use tanks in 1989 was because they had nothing else. They have learned the lesson and have trained and equipped armed police in the use of non-lethal force. Actually, this increases the chance of them coming, because the consequences are less dire. I imagine that tanks will only be used in a demonstration role.
Quote from: Savonarola on October 02, 2014, 09:33:02 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 09:09:47 PM
BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations. This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.
Mono's tired of all this bullshit
They keep selling him on T.V.
About the Chi-communist plan
But now the Hong Kong dollar rules everybody's lives
Gotta make a million doesn't matter who dies
Revolution calling
LOL, Operation: Hivecrime
While I support and sympathize with the protesters, Mono is kinda right. The two realistic outcomes of all this is either:
- No change
- The one nation/two systems idea goes to the wall, and China dumps ther special status.
There really is no down side for China to go with option 2 (outside some economic turmoil in HK and elsewhere), and no one in the international community will do anything about it except express some mild regret.
Hong Kong is in many ways China's conduit to the international financial community. Losing that would hurt them somewhat.
I kinda think that idea is kind of obsolete at this point. Loss of the special status wont affect finance. Plenty of places do finance just fine without freedom, :P
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2014, 09:55:05 PM
Hong Kong is in many ways China's conduit to the international financial community. Losing that would hurt them somewhat.
Our importance is declining. They are building up Shanghai to replace us anyway. We were useful to them in the 80s and 90s. Now? Who needs a middleman, especially if he is annoying.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 09:59:17 PM
Now? Who needs a middleman, especially if he is annoying.
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 02, 2014, 09:52:51 PM
While I support and sympathize with the protesters, Mono is kinda right. The two realistic outcomes of all this is either:
- No change
- The one nation/two systems idea goes to the wall, and China dumps ther special status.
There really is no down side for China to go with option 2 (outside some economic turmoil in HK and elsewhere), and no one in the international community will do anything about it except express some mild regret.
HK will never be the same after this. The showdown is kinda necessary for the population to realise that the idea of democracy is truly dead. The rioters will have to leave sooner or later, and there is no question that they won't get what they want. The real question is what next. The relationship between the government and the people will be changed forever. The pan-democrat legislators will block everything the government proposes. "Unless you give us part of the pie, we won't let you have yours either." There will be widespread disobedience. Refusal to pay taxes, etc. Lots of people will leave for other places.
Do they still drink a lot of cognac in HK?
Quote from: derspiess on October 02, 2014, 10:11:52 PM
Do they still drink a lot of cognac in HK?
No clue. What do you mean?
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 02, 2014, 09:57:27 PM
I kinda think that idea is kind of obsolete at this point. Loss of the special status wont affect finance. Plenty of places do finance just fine without freedom, :P
Not many do without rule of law.
Robert Chow, ex-talk show host who collected over a million signatures (out of a population of 7 million) that oppose the Occupy Central movement, has said that he will organise ordinary folk to remove the rioters from public roads. I don't have high hopes but let's see how this plays out. In any case, individual cases of shopowners and anti-riot citizens who try to remove the road blocks on their own are on the rise. They desperately need better organisation.
100 people have smashed into the rioters' camp in Mongkok and are tearing down the tents. The rioters' reaction? Call the police :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1412322808942SL4_033ADDBC8A7759F8428634F8D8A2783B_zps6d62a34c.jpg&hash=cf58a296554a831ccf0b3192bc1859f7d281a6c8) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1412322808942SL4_033ADDBC8A7759F8428634F8D8A2783B_zps6d62a34c.jpg.html)
Police separating the angry residents and the rioters in Mong Kok. If the police can't clear the rioters, I don't understand why they won't let us do it ourselves.
Rioters :lol: Some pics of real rioters, for comparison, Mono:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.thesun.co.uk%2Faidemitlum%2Farchive%2F01356%2FSNN0801NEW--682B_1356223a.jpg&hash=45941b86e63988b0de9a827640345f6f20e35fbb)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F02799%2Fkiev-middle_2799623k.jpg&hash=052e537d7de1bb9d09c4207203357be499eae8ec)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fknlive.ctvnews.ca%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.1652367%21%2FhttpImage%2Fimage.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Flandscape_620%2Fimage.jpg&hash=ae7b4f3551d7a467854464e5714e9f36b84cef72)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F68CKKV0.jpg&hash=ef7871fddd0e06f14cbb4d36f4cfb989021147d8)
Quote from: Tamas on October 03, 2014, 04:20:53 AM
Rioters :lol: Some pics of real rioters, for comparison, Mono:
Actually, the term that I use in my head is "scumbag". Would you prefer that instead? :lol:
The mainland PR machine has started calling them "criminals". I think this signals that Beijing is determined not to provide any political exit for them. You don't call the counterpart on the other side of the negotiation table criminals.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 04:33:23 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 03, 2014, 04:20:53 AM
Rioters :lol: Some pics of real rioters, for comparison, Mono:
Actually, the term that I use in my head is "scumbag". Would you prefer that instead? :lol:
The mainland PR machine has started calling them "criminals". I think this signals that Beijing is determined not to provide any political exit for them. You don't call the counterpart on the other side of the negotiation table criminals.
It's the likes of you Mono who have destroyed my homeland. I guess the difference is that Hong Kong never had a realistic chance of escaping being under Politburo boots, so I should be lenient on you.
Mong Kok liberated. Thousands of angry residents, shopowners, workers surrounded the rioters and booed them. The rioters had to be escorted out by police. The organisers announced that they have abandoned Mong Kok.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 05:38:15 AM
Mong Kok liberated. Thousands of angry residents, shopowners, workers surrounded the rioters and booed them. The rioters had to be escorted out by police. The organisers announced that they have abandoned Mong Kok.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20070222235616%2Fmemoryalpha%2Fen%2Fimages%2F8%2F8a%2FBorg-children.jpg&hash=1c0de66cbecfe9a30c42565dfe9b19d599fd88e1)
The angry mob is moving to Causeway Bay (it is only like 30 minutes by train) to repeat the same tactic against the rioters.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 05:49:30 AM
The angry mob is moving to Causeway Bay (it is only like 30 minutes by train) to repeat the same tactic against the rioters.
You can still join them if you hurry. Will help with your next promotion.
I love it how Mono assigns the label "rioters" to the peaceful protesters, and "angry residents" to the violent rioters attacking the protesters... and I don't think he is trying to be amusing.
Next, he'll be telling us that we have always been at war with Eastasia.
Quote from: Tamas on October 03, 2014, 05:51:50 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 05:49:30 AM
The angry mob is moving to Causeway Bay (it is only like 30 minutes by train) to repeat the same tactic against the rioters.
You can still join them if you hurry. Will help with your next promotion.
Seriously, according to polls, the majority are against the occupy movement. We need to make a living, and that shouldn't be hard to grasp. By indefinitely occupying key roads, the rioters are making tons of enemies. Parents need to stay home to look after their children. The retail market is dead. Tourists aren't coming. Those who rely on commission income have their incomes entirely cut off. Is it any surprise that the people are fighting back, since the police are next to useless?
Quote from: grumbler on October 03, 2014, 06:23:09 AM
Next, he'll be telling us that we have always been at war with Eastasia.
As an Eastasian government agent, shouldn't he be trying to pit us against Eurasia?
Now the students are saying that if the government doesn't stop the mob, they'll refuse to meet.
Why should the police help sustain an illegal activity?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1412334472895SL4_89AF47B589DA4F7F92F17D6B3529E1A8_zps2a4fff4b.jpg&hash=cf116e0b9a18c5c895ad7c1742895d964c6f181f) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1412334472895SL4_89AF47B589DA4F7F92F17D6B3529E1A8_zps2a4fff4b.jpg.html)
Causeway Bay rioters are packing and leaving.
Rumour is that riot police will clear the people who block the entrances to government HQs tonight.
Mono, when the revolution comes show them your Canadian passport. That might save you.
What revolution? By the sounds of it, the pro-government rioters are stronger than the anti-government rioters, even without getting the Chinese army involved. He'll get the "One Country, One System" plan he's been waiting for.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 03, 2014, 07:18:18 AM
What revolution? By the sounds of it, the pro-government rioters are stronger than the anti-government rioters, even without getting the Chinese army involved. He'll get the "One Country, One System" plan he's been waiting for.
I just want the status quo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw)
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 03, 2014, 07:13:12 AM
Mono, when the revolution comes show them your Canadian passport. That might save you.
I don't think the democrats are capable of starting a revolution. We are a city of office workers and middle class people. They'll probably choose to move to a western country if they are not happy with the regime.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 03, 2014, 07:24:47 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw)
Sigh I think you are right. I'll get anything but the status quo, I guess. But that's for another day. Right now, I "*just* want the roads to reopen.
The mobilization of the HK mob in support of the government reminds me of the mobilization of the mob in various Chinese cities after the bombing of the Belgrade Embassy. It seems that "one system" may already be the case in HK.
'Angry' anti-Occupy crowds confront Hong Kong pro-democracy protesters
By Ivan Watson, Tim Hume, Rebecca Wright and Wilfred Chan, CNN
October 3, 2014 -- Updated 1124 GMT (1924 HKT)
Hong Kong protesters block ambulance
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Anti-Occupy crowds confront pro-democracy protesters in Mong Kok
NEW: Pro-democracy protesters outnumbered, protected by police
The chief executive's second in command will meet with student protest leaders
A student group welcomes the talks, but says protesters won't leave the streets
Hong Kong (CNN) -- A key site held by Hong Kong pro-democracy demonstrators descended into scenes of chaos Friday as large crowds opposed to the movement gathered to clear the area, potentially jeopardizing talks to break the political standoff.
The confrontation unfolded Friday afternoon and evening in the densely-populated district of Mong Kok, Kowloon -- on the opposite side of Victoria Harbor to the main "Occupy" protest site surrounding government offices in Admiralty, Hong Kong Island.
According to CNN staff on the ground, scuffles ensued as crowds of people opposed to the protest -- numbering in their thousands, and mostly male and middle-aged -- confronted the camp of hundreds of demonstrators, many of whom are students.
Police formed a human chain around the protest site to try to prevent incursions from the anti-Occupy crowds, who were shoving and jostling the protesters, yelling "Clear the field!"
Whenever one of them broke through the line, they were led away by police or Occupy protesters.
The three main groups coordinating the pro-democracy protests responded to the unrest with an ultimatum to authorities.
"If the government does not immediately prevent the organized attacks on supporters of the Occupy movement, the students will call off dialogue on political reform with the government," it read.
The Hong Kong government's second in command, Chief Secretary Carrie Lam, had previously agreed to meet representatives of the Hong Kong Federation of Students to talk "constitutional development matters," in what many hoped could bring about an end to the political standoff.
Students protesters call on chief exec to go
Occupy Central, one of the main groups behind the protests, tweeted for supporters in Mong Kok to abandon the site and regroup at the main protest site in Admiralty.
"Must ensure safety is priority in the face of violent attacks," read the tweet.
'Very angry, noisy'
At the scene of the Mong Kok unrest, Joe Lee, a 58-year-old maintenance supervisor, said he was upset about the pro-democracy protesters' presence.
"They've been here for nearly a week. They need to clear out," he said. "It's ruining our economy, they just need to leave."
A middle-aged woman, who did not want to give her name, said she had come out to join the anti-Occupy crowds when she saw footage of protesters' tents being torn down on TV. She said she was furious at "what a mess Hong Kong has become."
Among the pro-democracy protesters, some of whom were crying, 24-year-old Wilson Wong said the crowds were intimidating.
"We just want a peaceful dialogue but we're scared because they're using violence," he said. "We're very nervous and our hands are shaking even as we hold on to each other."
Siu Hay, a 33-year-old musician, said the anti-Occupy crowds were "very angry and very noisy." "They (the Occupy Central protesters) just want peace and democracy."
Responding to the violence, Alex Chow, Secretary General of the Hong Kong Federation of Students, said the unrest was driven by people "with the intention to cause chaos to allow police to clear activists there."
"All supporters of Occupy will abide by the principles of nonviolence," he said. "The chaos is not caused by advocates of Occupy, but by the opposing groups."
The occupation was momentarily cleared enough for police to allow for buses to pass through, to cheers from the crowd.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/03/world/asia/china-hong-kong-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Quote from: grumbler on October 03, 2014, 07:36:53 AM
The mobilization of the HK mob in support of the government reminds me of the mobilization of the mob in various Chinese cities after the bombing of the Belgrade Embassy. It seems that "one system" may already be the case in HK.
Standard way of operations, it must be.
The current Hungarian regime was the weakest around the start of 2012 IIRC. Their crooked mafia nature already obvious, opposition people really started to gather momentum. When they officially enacted the new constitution they farced together (start of 2012 IIRC) there was a demonstration in front of the place they celebrated, and what the government intended to be the glorious pompous celebration of their new future was an embarrassment: they had to literally sneak in and out of the building.
Their answer was mobilising their core supporter group (which is pretty sizable, lets not kid ourselves) for a massive "Peace March". With putting state resources behind it, they could transport around 100k people to the capital and made a massive march dwarfing the previous opposition demonstrations.
Worked well in demoralising the opposition.
Tsim Sha Tsui liberated. Only Causeway Bay and the main camp outside government HQs in Admiralty are left. 2 done. 2 to go.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 07:22:54 AM
I just want the status quo.
I just want the chance to see us nuke your useless yellow ass in my lifetime.
Quote from: grumbler on October 03, 2014, 06:23:09 AM
I love it how Mono assigns the label "rioters" to the peaceful protesters, and "angry residents" to the violent rioters attacking the protesters... and I don't think he is trying to be amusing.
Next, he'll be telling us that we have always been at war with Eastasia.
Yeah. :D
Causeway Bay rioters have been asked to return to Admiralty.
With the recent turn of events in Hong Kong I was reminded of this quote from My Dinner with Andre:
New York, it's a very interesting place... do you know a lot of New Yorkers who keep talking about wanting to leave but never do?' and I said 'Yes', and he said 'Why do you think they don't leave?' I gave him a few banal theories, and he said 'I don't think it's that way at all... I think that New York is a new model for the new concentration camp, where the camp has been built by the inmates themselves, and the inmates ARE the guards, and they have this pride in this thing they built, they built their own internal prison, so they exist in a state of internal schizophrenia where they are the both guards and prisoners, and as a result they no longer have, having been lobotomized, the capacity to leave the prison they made or to even see it as a prison.'
Andre's friend was right, he just had the wrong city.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 07:22:54 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 03, 2014, 07:18:18 AM
What revolution? By the sounds of it, the pro-government rioters are stronger than the anti-government rioters, even without getting the Chinese army involved. He'll get the "One Country, One System" plan he's been waiting for.
I just want the status quo.
I wonder if BB is rethinking his love of conservatism?
I wonder how many of the anti Occupy protestors are Russian mainland Chinese special agents.
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 02, 2014, 09:57:27 PM
I kinda think that idea is kind of obsolete at this point.
It's not and won't/can't be until the mainland goes to full convertibility.
QuoteLoss of the special status wont affect finance. Plenty of places do finance just fine without freedom, :P
Singaporeis the only one I can think of but ut is still way ahead of mainland China.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 06:46:42 AM
Now the students are saying that if the government doesn't stop the mob, they'll refuse to meet.
Why should the police help sustain an illegal activity?
Why should the police stop vigilantes? Is that a serious question?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2014, 09:21:22 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 06:46:42 AM
Now the students are saying that if the government doesn't stop the mob, they'll refuse to meet.
Why should the police help sustain an illegal activity?
Why should the police stop vigilantes? Is that a serious question?
You don't find anything odd with criminals on the run expecting police protection?
So if a hit and run driver hits a jaywalker, they let him go in HK?
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:25:41 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2014, 09:21:22 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 06:46:42 AM
Now the students are saying that if the government doesn't stop the mob, they'll refuse to meet.
Why should the police help sustain an illegal activity?
Why should the police stop vigilantes? Is that a serious question?
You don't find anything odd with criminals on the run expecting police protection?
So are you ignoring his question then?
Rioters now refuse to meet with HK government offcials.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 04:23:37 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on October 02, 2014, 01:41:52 PM
I'm curious what the long term worst case scenario is.
Beijing taking control and Hong Kong becoming a Cantonese Shanghai?
Yeah, Beijing declaring that mainland laws taking effect in HK, and the PLA stepping in would be the worst case scenario. Death of One Country, Two Systems. Communist party officials from the mainland become my bosses. Internet censorship and the rest.
Torpedoing negotiations with Taiwan forever (or at least until the PRC is overthrown).
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2014, 09:28:46 AM
So if a hit and run driver hits a jaywalker, they let him go in HK?
More like a rapist complaining being punched by the victim's husband.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:43:11 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2014, 09:28:46 AM
So if a hit and run driver hits a jaywalker, they let him go in HK?
More like a rapist complaining being punched by the victim's husband.
:lmfao:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 03, 2014, 09:41:36 AM
Torpedoing negotiations with Taiwan forever (or at least until the PRC is overthrown).
I think the communists have pretty much given up on reuniting Taiwan. Taiwan is a fully functioning democracy. It will never agree to reunit with a non-democratic China no matter what. The most Beijing can hope for is maintaining the status quo. It is already a victory if Taiwan doesn't declare independence. That's all they aim for.
Am I missing something? All these "vigilantes" seem to be doing is booing the protesters and taking cell phone photos.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:25:41 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 03, 2014, 09:21:22 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 06:46:42 AM
Now the students are saying that if the government doesn't stop the mob, they'll refuse to meet.
Why should the police help sustain an illegal activity?
Why should the police stop vigilantes? Is that a serious question?
You don't find anything odd with criminals on the run expecting police protection?
Criminals?
It doesn't take you long to adapt to the part line does it?
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 03, 2014, 09:49:10 AM
Criminals?
It doesn't take you long to adapt to the part line does it?
I don't know about Canada, but occupying public roads is a criminal offence in HK.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 05:49:30 AM
The angry mob is moving to Causeway Bay (it is only like 30 minutes by train) to repeat the same tactic against the rioters.
I keep hearing reports that the spontaneous locals clearing out the Occupiers are communicating in Mandarin, often using bullhorns to keep themselves organized.
Curious, that.
Quote from: grumbler on October 03, 2014, 07:36:53 AM
The mobilization of the HK mob in support of the government reminds me of the mobilization of the mob in various Chinese cities after the bombing of the Belgrade Embassy. It seems that "one system" may already be the case in HK.
Yup.
Quote from: PJL on October 03, 2014, 09:04:52 AM
I wonder how many of the anti Occupy protestors are Russian mainland Chinese special agents.
I'm sure there are plenty of locals, but from what I've been hearing there are lots of Mandarin speakers as well which seem to imply they've been organized somewhere away from Hong Kong.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:50:33 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 03, 2014, 09:49:10 AM
Criminals?
It doesn't take you long to adapt to the part line does it?
I don't know about Canada, but occupying public roads is a criminal offence in HK.
Here it is called a protest and has certain civil law and constitutional law guarrantees.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 03, 2014, 09:46:24 AM
Am I missing something? All these "vigilantes" seem to be doing is booing the protesters and taking cell phone photos.
My random internet sources say they're tearing down barricades and beating protestors (sometimes with umbrellas, for maximum ironic effect).
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 03, 2014, 09:53:56 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:50:33 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 03, 2014, 09:49:10 AM
Criminals?
It doesn't take you long to adapt to the part line does it?
I don't know about Canada, but occupying public roads is a criminal offence in HK.
Here it is called a protest and has certain civil law and constitutional law guarrantees.
Here, you need to apply for a permit to conduct a protest in advance, and you need to agree with the police on the route and timing. Otherwise, it is illegal and the police are empowered to clear the area and make charges.
The rioters (real rioters, Mono) going after the protesters seem awfully well organized and consistent. I'd be very surprised if there weren't CCP provocateurs stirring things up there.
Why can't the rioters clear the protesters when the police can't? It's called rule of law, Mono. No government can exist where vigilantes are better at doing the government's job of protecting the populace. So the one thing the government needs to protect itself from more than dissidence? Vigilantism.
Guy "collects" 1 million out of 7 million signatures against the protesters. Bullshit. Most of the time, that many people don't even come out for government elections. No petition I've ever seen has a 14% response rate without having tons of coerced or forced signatures, or people signing multiple times under pseudonyms.
Odds are high that your precious "status quo" is being maintained by greater criminals than people sitting in the roads wondering why they can't even discuss the issue.
Quote from: Jacob on October 03, 2014, 09:53:11 AM
Quote from: PJL on October 03, 2014, 09:04:52 AM
I wonder how many of the anti Occupy protestors are Russian mainland Chinese special agents.
I'm sure there are plenty of locals, but from what I've been hearing there are lots of Mandarin speakers as well which seem to imply they've been organized somewhere away from Hong Kong.
I think it is time the democrats realise that not everybody in HK agree with their actions. I for one am outraged about their tactics.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:58:28 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 03, 2014, 09:53:11 AM
Quote from: PJL on October 03, 2014, 09:04:52 AM
I wonder how many of the anti Occupy protestors are Russian mainland Chinese special agents.
I'm sure there are plenty of locals, but from what I've been hearing there are lots of Mandarin speakers as well which seem to imply they've been organized somewhere away from Hong Kong.
I think it is time the democrats realise that not everybody in HK agree with their actions. I for one am outraged about their tactics.
There is no tactic they could try that would not have you outraged.
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2014, 10:00:38 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:58:28 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 03, 2014, 09:53:11 AM
Quote from: PJL on October 03, 2014, 09:04:52 AM
I wonder how many of the anti Occupy protestors are Russian mainland Chinese special agents.
I'm sure there are plenty of locals, but from what I've been hearing there are lots of Mandarin speakers as well which seem to imply they've been organized somewhere away from Hong Kong.
I think it is time the democrats realise that not everybody in HK agree with their actions. I for one am outraged about their tactics.
There is no tactic they could try that would not have you outraged.
They organise huge marches on 1 July every year, and I have no problem with that. Taking roads and preventing others from using them is an entirely different matter.
My stance is very clear. As far as demonstration tactics are concerned, anything that is legal is acceptable. Anything that is illegal is unacceptable. Not that hard to understand.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 10:14:54 AM
My stance is very clear. As far as demonstration tactics are concerned, anything that is legal is acceptable. Anything that is illegal is unacceptable. Not that hard to understand.
And what difference do you actually see between legal and illegal demonstration tactics? The legal ones sound about as useful as a strongly worded letters. Affecting change is hard. Also, the secret: the government's designed to protect itself. It usually takes something "illegal" to force a change of the system itself.
Mono: Lawful Evil.
katmai: Awful Stupid.
Quote from: The Larch on October 03, 2014, 10:52:00 AM
Mono: Lawful Evil.
I'd say more Lawful Neutral. I don't think he means any harm to the protesters-- he just wants to get back to normal life.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 10:15:11 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 02, 2014, 10:11:52 PM
Do they still drink a lot of cognac in HK?
No clue. What do you mean?
I read back in the 90s that HK had the highest per capita consumption of cognac. Was just wondering if it's still big there.
Cognac (and similar) was often used pre-Xi to gift officials. Portable, high-value commodities are useful in a country with a lot of transactional needs but a non-tradable currency.
Does that mean sales of $40 bottles of PBR have dropped as well? :(
Quote from: derspiess on October 03, 2014, 11:08:42 AM
I'd say more Lawful Neutral. I don't think he means any harm to the protesters-- he just wants to get back to normal life.
In every system I've played in, the good-evil axis is defined as altruism vs selfishness. I would say it's a pretty good definition in real life too.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:56:46 AM
Here, you need to apply for a permit to conduct a protest in advance, and you need to agree with the police on the route and timing. Otherwise, it is illegal and the police are empowered to clear the area and make charges.
There's little point to a protest that has to get permission to occur.
Quote from: Maximus on October 03, 2014, 12:49:09 PM
In every system I've played in, the good-evil axis is defined as altruism vs selfishness. I would say it's a pretty good definition in real life too.
Not a bad basis, but there are plenty of people who elevate selfishness to a virtue.
Quote from: Jacob on October 03, 2014, 12:52:02 PM
Not a bad basis, but there are plenty of people who elevate selfishness to a virtue.
Yes, there are.
Quote from: Maximus on October 03, 2014, 12:51:16 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:56:46 AM
Here, you need to apply for a permit to conduct a protest in advance, and you need to agree with the police on the route and timing. Otherwise, it is illegal and the police are empowered to clear the area and make charges.
There's little point to a protest that has to get permission to occur.
There's some rational basis for demonstrators needing to get permission - so as to organize security, direct vehicle traffic, that sort of thing.
Trouble is it is very easy for less-than-democratic governments to impose so many restrictions introduced ostensibly for those reason that you wind up taking away people's right to gather and protest.
I think a lot of people conflate selfishness with greed. Wanting things isn't inherently evil.
Quote from: Maximus on October 03, 2014, 12:51:16 PM
There's little point to a protest that has to get permission to occur.
That renders virtually every protest in a first world country pointless.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 03, 2014, 12:58:38 PM
I think a lot of people conflate selfishness with greed. Wanting things isn't inherently evil.
Well to a lot of ethical or religious beliefs, it is. "Thou shall not covet" is one of the Ten Commandments, after all. Buddhists has a lot to say about the negativity of want and desire.
Quote from: derspiess on October 03, 2014, 11:10:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 02, 2014, 10:15:11 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 02, 2014, 10:11:52 PM
Do they still drink a lot of cognac in HK?
No clue. What do you mean?
I read back in the 90s that HK had the highest per capita consumption of cognac. Was just wondering if it's still big there.
It's still pretty huge in Shenzhen and the surrounding area. My father in law has a huge collection of Hennessy, Martell, etc though most of which he received as gifts. In fact, the Mandarin word they use for cognac is literally just "foreign alcohol" ("yang jiu").
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2014, 01:04:38 PM
"Thou shall not covet" is one of the Ten Commandments, after all.
That's about wanting your neighbor's stuff, not a requirement to give away your own.
Apparently, the protestors are alleging the people attacking them are (at least in part) comprised of triad gang members.
Quote from: Camerus on October 03, 2014, 01:07:57 PM
Apparently, the protestors are alleging the people attacking them are (at least in part) comprised of triad gang members.
I would be completely unsurprised.
I actually think Mono's attitudes are perfectly in keeping with the prevailing mainland Chinese mindset: concern solely with personal/family wealth, the concomitant fetishizing of stability (understandable given its history), and the absolute indifference to the sufferings of those outside your family / those below you in the wealth ladder.
So I guess the inevitable mainlandization of Hong Kong - which the protestors could never seriously hope to stop - and the creeping influence of Beijing into more areas of life probably wouldn't seem as worrisome when one shares so much of the Mainland perspective.
Monos in action:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F77994000%2Fjpg%2F_77994020_77994014.jpg&hash=678ea67ae88e408a32fdd15ef11724b0d28b1d4f)
People shout at protesters in Mong Kok - 3 October
I wonder if there is going to be another wave of HK immigrants fleeing to Vancouver.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 03, 2014, 02:33:20 PM
I wonder if there is going to be another wave of HK immigrants fleeing to Vancouver.
Depends on what happens next, I think.
Quote from: mongers on October 03, 2014, 02:12:05 PM
Monos in action:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F77994000%2Fjpg%2F_77994020_77994014.jpg&hash=678ea67ae88e408a32fdd15ef11724b0d28b1d4f)
People shout at protesters in Mong Kok - 3 October
The guy pointing with his mouth open looks like he is straight out of casting from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Think of the last scene with Donald Sutherland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 03, 2014, 01:03:37 PM
That renders virtually every protest in a first world country pointless.
Quote from: Barrister on October 03, 2014, 12:56:32 PM
There's some rational basis for demonstrators needing to get permission - so as to organize security, direct vehicle traffic, that sort of thing.
Trouble is it is very easy for less-than-democratic governments to impose so many restrictions introduced ostensibly for those reason that you wind up taking away people's right to gather and protest.
I think there is some give and take. As long as the government recognizes that protests may occur, it is in protesters' interest to work within the system with regard to time and place. Once the legal system is used to marginalize or shut down protest, however, all bets are off.
I am not sure if people are aware that Mong Kok is a residential area as well. By protesting all week and through the nights, often using loudspeakers, the rioters are disturbing the sleep of many people for many days. Let's not kid themselves. Their behaviour is outrageous and a lot of people have many legitimate reasons to come out and boo them out.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 03, 2014, 02:33:20 PM
I wonder if there is going to be another wave of HK immigrants fleeing to Vancouver.
If people leave, it is because housing prices in HK are too high, not because of this.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 03, 2014, 10:19:04 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 10:14:54 AM
My stance is very clear. As far as demonstration tactics are concerned, anything that is legal is acceptable. Anything that is illegal is unacceptable. Not that hard to understand.
And what difference do you actually see between legal and illegal demonstration tactics? The legal ones sound about as useful as a strongly worded letters. Affecting change is hard. Also, the secret: the government's designed to protect itself. It usually takes something "illegal" to force a change of the system itself.
Illegal tactics take freedom away from other citizens. Illegal tactics affect the livelihood of others, take society hostage, and blackmail government.
Quote from: Camerus on October 03, 2014, 01:07:57 PM
Apparently, the protestors are alleging the people attacking them are (at least in part) comprised of triad gang members.
They live in a fantasy world where everybody is on their side just because they supposedly fight for democracy. So anybody who comes out and disagrees is a triad member. Does this mean they think I am a triad member too?
So there will be no dialogue between government and the rioters. I don't think there is anything lost there. The rioters want Beijing to withdraw its decision on the Chief Executive election rules. The HK government is constitutionally bound to obey the ruling. These are parallel lines that will never meet. Any dialogue is pointless. As I said, you want to change the rules? Go to Tian An Men :contract:
Everybody is mentioning Tian An Men. One of the key lessons learned is that you need to have an exit strategy and know when to fold. I think another lesson that wasn't learned is to make pie in the sky style demands that are easy to dismiss.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 06:02:14 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 03, 2014, 10:19:04 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 10:14:54 AM
My stance is very clear. As far as demonstration tactics are concerned, anything that is legal is acceptable. Anything that is illegal is unacceptable. Not that hard to understand.
And what difference do you actually see between legal and illegal demonstration tactics? The legal ones sound about as useful as a strongly worded letters. Affecting change is hard. Also, the secret: the government's designed to protect itself. It usually takes something "illegal" to force a change of the system itself.
Illegal tactics take freedom away from other citizens. Illegal tactics affect the livelihood of others, take society hostage, and blackmail government.
What do illegal tactics against those using illegal tactics do? Two wrongs make a right?
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 06:09:58 PM
Quote from: Camerus on October 03, 2014, 01:07:57 PM
Apparently, the protestors are alleging the people attacking them are (at least in part) comprised of triad gang members.
They live in a fantasy world where everybody is on their side just because they supposedly fight for democracy. So anybody who comes out and disagrees is a triad member. Does this mean they think I am a triad member too?
That allegation may or may not be true - though as Jacob said, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some truth to it.
However, if you were part of an organized band attacking others on the street, the accusation would be true that you are, at the very least, a cheap thug. And it's not difficult to make the leap from there to gangster.
I won't answer your question for what that makes someone who merely supports such behaviour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9_y9Q5DcQM
Shopowners and residents successfully booing off rioters who tried to occupy Sham Shui Po. A victory for Hong Kong :)
Quote from: garbon on October 03, 2014, 07:34:38 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 06:02:14 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 03, 2014, 10:19:04 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 10:14:54 AM
My stance is very clear. As far as demonstration tactics are concerned, anything that is legal is acceptable. Anything that is illegal is unacceptable. Not that hard to understand.
And what difference do you actually see between legal and illegal demonstration tactics? The legal ones sound about as useful as a strongly worded letters. Affecting change is hard. Also, the secret: the government's designed to protect itself. It usually takes something "illegal" to force a change of the system itself.
Illegal tactics take freedom away from other citizens. Illegal tactics affect the livelihood of others, take society hostage, and blackmail government.
What do illegal tactics against those using illegal tactics do? Two wrongs make a right?
They want to play civil disobedience? Others can play that game too.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 08:08:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 03, 2014, 07:34:38 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 06:02:14 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 03, 2014, 10:19:04 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 10:14:54 AM
My stance is very clear. As far as demonstration tactics are concerned, anything that is legal is acceptable. Anything that is illegal is unacceptable. Not that hard to understand.
And what difference do you actually see between legal and illegal demonstration tactics? The legal ones sound about as useful as a strongly worded letters. Affecting change is hard. Also, the secret: the government's designed to protect itself. It usually takes something "illegal" to force a change of the system itself.
Illegal tactics take freedom away from other citizens. Illegal tactics affect the livelihood of others, take society hostage, and blackmail government.
What do illegal tactics against those using illegal tactics do? Two wrongs make a right?
They want to play civil disobedience? Others can play that game too.
I don't see why you'd want more people to act in a lawless manner.
Quote from: garbon on October 03, 2014, 08:10:27 PM
I don't see why you'd want more people to act in a lawless manner.
The priority is to reopen the roads.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 08:11:12 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 03, 2014, 08:10:27 PM
I don't see why you'd want more people to act in a lawless manner.
The priority is to reopen the roads.
So if said second group of lawless individuals don't stop? Grow to like being allowed to attack others...that's just a worry for another day?
Quote from: garbon on October 03, 2014, 08:20:08 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 08:11:12 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 03, 2014, 08:10:27 PM
I don't see why you'd want more people to act in a lawless manner.
The priority is to reopen the roads.
So if said second group of lawless individuals don't stop? Grow to like being allowed to attack others...that's just a worry for another day?
Just how lawless are they? It is mostly booing, foul language, insults, and removing road blocks.
Do you want to get poorer Mono? That is what will happen when the HK system collapses because Beijing picked only crooked commies to run it.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 03, 2014, 08:33:13 PM
Do you want to get poorer Mono? That is what will happen when the HK system collapses because Beijing picked only crooked commies to run it.
I'll get poorer if the roads are blocked.
Meanwhile, the People's Daily in Beijing attacks the rioters for the third day in a row, repeating that it is utterly out of the question to change HK's election rules. It is rare for the People's Daily to comment on a single event for 3 days in a row, and this makes it extremely clear that Beijing will not negotiate in any shape or form.
Street fights have broken out in Admiralty underground train station between people who support the police and the rioters. Admiralty is the rioters' main camp.
Blue ribbon army is forming. Blue is the colour of the Hong Kong Police. Yellow is the colour of the rioters.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1412362661864_6D906734E03272BE8C5585A89FBE604F_zpsbfab4d48.jpg&hash=df6b71e3bd67f3bedd1450864c55c0081f9a7e5e) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1412362661864_6D906734E03272BE8C5585A89FBE604F_zpsbfab4d48.jpg.html)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1412362662675_DEBED2D6A8F21E41810825E46CDB5387_zps82bcf341.jpg&hash=b20d322ab03e9873cd84c5cac1fb2fed641b8d5c) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1412362662675_DEBED2D6A8F21E41810825E46CDB5387_zps82bcf341.jpg.html)
Support HKP. HKP = Hong Kong police. Don't tell me that these folks are mainland agents or triad members. They are HK citizens just like me who can have a view other than "I support people who fight for democracy no matter what tactics they use".
I doubt they are just like you. I don't think you are willing to get so engaged.
At least the blue bunch has less Moe Howard haircuts.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 03, 2014, 08:58:49 PM
I doubt they are just like you. I don't think you are willing to get so engaged.
True :blush: I have walked past the rioters outside my office many times, and I have been tempted to shout at them. I didn't. Well, if my fellow civil servants do it, I may follow.
I think it is important. They want to role play as democracy heroes? What can be more demoralising than the people they are supposed to help telling them to fuck off?
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 08:50:11 PM
Blue ribbon army is forming.
:ccr :ccr :ccr
:ccr :ccr :ccr
:ccr :ccr :ccr
You guys are apparently much more Chinese than you let it show.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 06:09:58 PM
They live in a fantasy world where everybody is on their side just because they supposedly fight for democracy. So anybody who comes out and disagrees is a triad member. Does this mean they think I am a triad member too?
Well, you live in a fantasy world where some of the world's most peaceful protesters are "rioters." Tit for tat?
A lot of people in HK have happy and stable lives. We are not North Korea or Iraq. There are democratic elections of more than half the seats in the legislative council that the democratic camp compete in (and regularly win). There are things that can be improved, but there is no excuse for taking the entire society hostage and making an enemy out of Beijing. People need to realise that our situation is a lot worse than Finland was during the cold war, and we need to work with Beijing. Beijing isn't being entirely unreasonable. They are paranoid about democracy, but other than that have largely kept their promises about our freedoms and One Country Two Systems.
The headlines of the Mainland PLA newspaper (yes there is an official one) are that the PLA garrison in HK are absolutely loyal to the Party leadership :ph34r: I think the rioters have more to worry about than the HK police's tear gas or the insults of residents.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1412353122525SL4_2EBF5A91D0D787038B2FE2F916A73E55_zpsf8e49100.jpg&hash=2217545a82dbc0c8fb219cb03d802ff0ab821d1e) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1412353122525SL4_2EBF5A91D0D787038B2FE2F916A73E55_zpsf8e49100.jpg.html)
The blues aren't afraid to show their faces or to let reporters take still photos. They went to challenge and insult the rioters in Causeway Bay.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F20141004_20141004-093108-20141004-022009-075_zpsb34ed2e1.jpg&hash=cb6498472428df451ea76cade73ba405be7b8c1d) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/20141004_20141004-093108-20141004-022009-075_zpsb34ed2e1.jpg.html)
Blues marching to support the police. Do they look like thugs?
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:54:19 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F20141004_20141004-093108-20141004-022009-075_zpsb34ed2e1.jpg&hash=cb6498472428df451ea76cade73ba405be7b8c1d) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/20141004_20141004-093108-20141004-022009-075_zpsb34ed2e1.jpg.html)
Blues marching to support the police. Do they look like thugs?
No. But then, nobody was labeling peaceful counter-marchers or ribbon makers as thugs.
Quote from: Camerus on October 03, 2014, 10:06:39 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:54:19 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F20141004_20141004-093108-20141004-022009-075_zpsb34ed2e1.jpg&hash=cb6498472428df451ea76cade73ba405be7b8c1d) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/20141004_20141004-093108-20141004-022009-075_zpsb34ed2e1.jpg.html)
Blues marching to support the police. Do they look like thugs?
No. But then, nobody was labeling peaceful counter-marchers or ribbon makers as thugs.
From his 4 posts in a row, it is clear Mono just needs time to play in his sandbox.
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
Well said. I have never been so utterly disgusted by any poster on Languish like this. Not even when Martinus told Raz to kill himself. Mono's incredibly Orwellian take on the "rioters" I can still sort of understand, but his attitude towards the plight of the "losers" is callous and sadistic.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 03, 2014, 09:54:19 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F20141004_20141004-093108-20141004-022009-075_zpsb34ed2e1.jpg&hash=cb6498472428df451ea76cade73ba405be7b8c1d) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/20141004_20141004-093108-20141004-022009-075_zpsb34ed2e1.jpg.html)
Get me the cop's name and phone number Mono.
Quote from: DGuller on October 03, 2014, 11:51:45 PM
Quote from: The Larch on September 29, 2014, 06:14:47 AM
I must say that after reading the whole thread and Mono's pettiness and apparent glee at having a bunch of kids with extremely bleak life prospects who are actually willing to stand up for what they believe manhandled by riot police, while spewing against them as he has never ever done before in this forums, coupled with his incredibly and mind bogingly myopic perspective of life has turned him into an extremely unsavoury character for me. I don't care if it's a schtick or not, it's fucking disgusting.
Well said. I have never been so utterly disgusted by any poster on Languish like this. Not even when Martinus told Raz to kill himself. Mono's incredibly Orwellian take on the "rioters" I can still sort of understand, but his attitude towards the plight of the "losers" is callous and sadistic.
Something for everyone eh? ;)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29488002
QuoteHong Kong protests: Police arrest 'triad gang' members
Police in Hong Kong have arrested 19 people, including suspected members of triad gangs accused of attacking pro-democracy protesters.
The scuffles on Friday led to the postponement of talks between the demonstrators and the government.
Police officers deny claims that they have colluded with those who used violence against the demonstrators.
Activists are protesting against plans by China to vet election candidates and have been occupying parts of the city.
Hong Kong's leader earlier this week offered talks to defuse the situation in China's special administrative region.
But the clashes broke out as people apparently angry with the disruption caused by the protests tried to dismantle tents and barricades.
On Saturday morning the atmosphere on the streets was calm.
'Broken promise'
On Friday, the Hong Kong Federation of Students, which was invited to negotiations with the government, said in a statement it had "shelved" the talks. A time and place for the negotiations had never been confirmed.
"The government allowed the mafia to attack peaceful Occupy participants. It has cut off the path to a dialogue, and should be responsible for the consequences," it said.
It was not clear whether the statement reflected the position of other groups involved in the protest.
Occupy Central leader Benny Tai told the BBC they were still only considering a boycott of the talks. However, he said police were not protecting the demonstrators against attacks by their opponents and this situation could not continue.
"It's very, very difficult to maintain any sense of dialogue if the government does not stop these things happening to peaceful protesters," he said.
There was no immediate response from the government to the postponement.
But at a news conference on Friday night, police gave their account of events.
They denied accusations by the protesters that they had acted in concert with forces trying to break up the protest.
They said that among the 19 people arrested eight had "triad backgrounds", referring to local criminal gangs.
Their very presence there is a reminder that not everyone in Hong Kong is on the side of the protesters, the BBC's Martin Patience in Hong Kong says.
At least some of the protesters' opponents appear to be local residents angered by the disruption.
"I don't support Occupy Central. We have to work and make money. Occupy is just a game," said a construction worker who gave his name as Mr Lee, quoted by AFP news agency.
"We Hong Kongers need to eat!" another said.
'Doomed to fail'
At the heart of the row is how Hong Kong elects its next leader. In August, Beijing imposed tight rules on nominations for candidates wanting to stand for election.
The protesters say this move means that the polls will fall short of the free elections they are seeking.
Several days into their week-long demonstrations, the protesters added the demand that Chief Executive CY Leung step down.
The central government in Beijing has thrown its full support behind Mr Leung, calling the protests illegal and "doomed to fail".
It is Mong Kok, Hong Kong's red light district. Full of bars, brothels, Mah Jong gambling places (i.e. mini-casinos), CD/DVD shops. The folks who operate those are triads. You block the roads, you cut off their business. Of course they are pissed.
A scene from Mong Kok of the anti-protestors...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgradingfightscenes.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F06%2Fpicture25.png&hash=f48bfe1b683f319b0d39d44ea8c4d1b9d86176d6)
:D Nice.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 02:38:34 AM
It is Mong Kok, Hong Kong's red light district. Full of bars, brothels, Mah Jong gambling places (i.e. mini-casinos), CD/DVD shops. The folks who operate those are triads. You block the roads, you cut off their business. Of course they are pissed.
Why don't the police clean out all of the Triads instead of the protestors? :P
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 04, 2014, 04:14:38 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 02:38:34 AM
It is Mong Kok, Hong Kong's red light district. Full of bars, brothels, Mah Jong gambling places (i.e. mini-casinos), CD/DVD shops. The folks who operate those are triads. You block the roads, you cut off their business. Of course they are pissed.
Why don't the police clean out all of the Triads instead of the protestors? :P
Those are largely victimless crimes. And CD/DVD stuff are outside police. Copyright infringement is Customs :ph34r:
Local business groups are planning to file civil suits aginst rioters for loss of business. They've been saying this for a year, but I am not sure how they can pursue. I don't even know who the defendent should be, as there are so many different groups involved, with no clear organisation or leader. Even if in the unlikely event that the courts grant them an injunction order or something, the rioters will pay zero attention because they are in it for the attention.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 04:50:32 AM
Local business groups are planning to file civil suits aginst rioters for loss of business. They've been saying this for a year, but I am not sure how they can pursue. I don't even know who the defendent should be, as there are so many different groups involved, with no clear organisation or leader. Even if in the unlikely event that the courts grant them an injunction order or something, the rioters will pay zero attention because they are in it for the attention.
I was going to respond but... Oh go fuck yourself already, you horrible little man.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 04:16:19 AM
Those are largely victimless crimes.
What do you consider to be victimless crimes?
Quote from: Syt on October 04, 2014, 04:57:12 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 04:16:19 AM
Those are largely victimless crimes.
What do you consider to be victimless crimes?
Gambling, prostitution, counterfeiting goods etc.
As long as you don't block a road, you are good in Mono's book.
Quote from: Zanza on October 04, 2014, 05:17:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 04, 2014, 04:57:12 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 04:16:19 AM
Those are largely victimless crimes.
What do you consider to be victimless crimes?
Gambling, prostitution, counterfeiting goods etc.
As long as you don't block a road, you are good in Mono's book.
The triads number in the 6 figures in HK. It is impossible to arrest everybody. The police's strategy to deal with triads is one of containment. No guns, no drugs, no violent crimes. Restrict yourselves to victimless crimes. It isn't ideal but there you are.
Blocking roads is hardly a victimless crime.
Everything I know from HK's criminal underworld I learnt it from 90s movies and playing Sleeping Dogs.
Anyway, I wouldn't call prostitution a victimless crime. Counterfeiting either, although people don't get too worked up about that.
Gambling is a blight for many people; that also applies to legalized gambling, but that one at least can be acted upon.
Quote from: celedhring on October 04, 2014, 06:05:29 AM
Anyway, I wouldn't call prostitution a victimless crime.
:wacko:
Quote from: celedhring on October 04, 2014, 06:05:29 AM
Everything I know from HK's criminal underworld I learnt it from 90s movies and playing Sleeping Dogs.
Anyway, I wouldn't call prostitution a victimless crime. Counterfeiting either, although people don't get too worked up about that.
Gambling is a blight for many people; that also applies to legalized gambling, but that one at least can be acted upon.
As I said, the ideal world would be one where the triads don't exist. But since that goal isn't really doable, we'll have to settle for something less.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 04:16:19 AM
Those are largely victimless crimes. And CD/DVD stuff are outside police. Copyright infringement is Customs :ph34r:
You think affecting businesses is more of a victimized crime than human trafficking (and we've been pretty liberal about sticking to allegations of prostitution, as opposed to other forms of human trafficking), so by your own definition, since counterfeiting hurts businesses, isn't counterfeiting not a victimless crime?
Also, it's hilarious that you went from "the protesters are seeing Triads where there are none" a page or two ago to "well, it's Mong Kok, so Triads are par for the course."
Here's a supposition for you: CCP considers Hong Kong kind of an experimental deal to see how well they can deal with emboldened masses. It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to guess that CCP's going to decide that the status quo has emboldened HK citizens too much and issue a crackdown on personal freedoms. Enjoy the bed you've made.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 09:02:19 AM
Here's a supposition for you: CCP considers Hong Kong kind of an experimental deal to see how well they can deal with emboldened masses. It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to guess that CCP's going to decide that the status quo has emboldened HK citizens too much and issue a crackdown on personal freedoms. Enjoy the bed you've made.
From that light, Mono's frustration with the protesters would make sense. It's not like they have a chance of winning.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2014, 09:30:09 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 09:02:19 AM
Here's a supposition for you: CCP considers Hong Kong kind of an experimental deal to see how well they can deal with emboldened masses. It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to guess that CCP's going to decide that the status quo has emboldened HK citizens too much and issue a crackdown on personal freedoms. Enjoy the bed you've made.
From that light, Mono's frustration with the protesters would make sense. It's not like they have a chance of winning.
Social unrest = invitation for Beijing to intervene.
Also, from what I've read in the newspapers, most prostitutes in HK are from the mainland to make quick money. Don't understand why it necessarily has anything to do with human trafficking.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 02:38:34 AM
It is Mong Kok, Hong Kong's red light district. Full of bars, brothels, Mah Jong gambling places (i.e. mini-casinos), CD/DVD shops. The folks who operate those are triads. You block the roads, you cut off their business. Of course they are pissed.
So we went from: 'Lies this is not about Triad!' to 'Well of course Triad is involved, their poor illegal activities being victimized by the riotous rioters'
Wait you have to go to Brothels and Casinos to buy CD/DVDs? Woah.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2014, 09:30:09 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 09:02:19 AM
Here's a supposition for you: CCP considers Hong Kong kind of an experimental deal to see how well they can deal with emboldened masses. It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to guess that CCP's going to decide that the status quo has emboldened HK citizens too much and issue a crackdown on personal freedoms. Enjoy the bed you've made.
From that light, Mono's frustration with the protesters would make sense. It's not like they have a chance of winning.
If that were all there is to it, maybe. But to me it seems like a much bigger component is his "let them eat cake" attitude towards the protesters. Somehow he managed to snag a civil service job, and now he's suddenly superior to all the rabble on the outside of the winner-takes-all system.
I don't think that is true I think Mono is concerned that the protestors are damaging the future of Hong Kong so he is reacting emotionally.
In any case a protest in China either has to topple the regime or be unsuccessful. The logic of how the CCP operates really has no middle ground it seems to me. Beijing was never going to compromise, or it would embolden other areas of the country with far more serious issues and complaints than Hong Kong's.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 04:16:19 AM
Those are largely victimless crimes. And CD/DVD stuff are outside police. Copyright infringement is Customs :ph34r:
Fuck you, you fucking hack.
Quote from: DGuller on October 04, 2014, 11:48:09 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2014, 09:30:09 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 09:02:19 AM
Here's a supposition for you: CCP considers Hong Kong kind of an experimental deal to see how well they can deal with emboldened masses. It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to guess that CCP's going to decide that the status quo has emboldened HK citizens too much and issue a crackdown on personal freedoms. Enjoy the bed you've made.
From that light, Mono's frustration with the protesters would make sense. It's not like they have a chance of winning.
If that were all there is to it, maybe. But to me it seems like a much bigger component is his "let them eat cake" attitude towards the protesters. Somehow he managed to snag a civil service job, and now he's suddenly superior to all the rabble on the outside of the winner-takes-all system.
The finance guys in the investment banks are the real winners. As I have been saying all these years, I am a loser.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 04, 2014, 12:34:56 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 04:16:19 AM
Those are largely victimless crimes. And CD/DVD stuff are outside police. Copyright infringement is Customs :ph34r:
Fuck you, you fucking hack.
Hey, the question was, why didn't the police do something about the triads? The answer is, copyright infringement is for another department. I am a civil servant. I love these answers. Why don't *you* do something about such and such? Oh, that's not really my problem, ask _______. *Everybody* in government loves giving these answers :blush:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 05:28:57 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 04, 2014, 05:17:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 04, 2014, 04:57:12 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 04:16:19 AM
Those are largely victimless crimes.
What do you consider to be victimless crimes?
Gambling, prostitution, counterfeiting goods etc.
As long as you don't block a road, you are good in Mono's book.
The triads number in the 6 figures in HK. It is impossible to arrest everybody. The police's strategy to deal with triads is one of containment. No guns, no drugs, no violent crimes. Restrict yourselves to victimless crimes. It isn't ideal but there you are.
Blocking roads is hardly a victimless crime.
The PRC is supposed to be in charge. No need to arrest...execute. :)
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 04, 2014, 03:52:22 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 05:28:57 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 04, 2014, 05:17:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 04, 2014, 04:57:12 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 04:16:19 AM
Those are largely victimless crimes.
What do you consider to be victimless crimes?
Gambling, prostitution, counterfeiting goods etc.
As long as you don't block a road, you are good in Mono's book.
The triads number in the 6 figures in HK. It is impossible to arrest everybody. The police's strategy to deal with triads is one of containment. No guns, no drugs, no violent crimes. Restrict yourselves to victimless crimes. It isn't ideal but there you are.
Blocking roads is hardly a victimless crime.
The PRC is supposed to be in charge. No need to arrest...execute. :)
Huh, the mainland has a much bigger organised crime problem than us. Our triads are largely peaceful. They do engage in violence, but largely toward rival gangs, and they seldom use guns. Mostly sticks and knives. Gangs on the mainland sometimes use machine guns, I've read :ph34r:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 03:45:27 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 04, 2014, 11:48:09 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2014, 09:30:09 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 09:02:19 AM
Here's a supposition for you: CCP considers Hong Kong kind of an experimental deal to see how well they can deal with emboldened masses. It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to guess that CCP's going to decide that the status quo has emboldened HK citizens too much and issue a crackdown on personal freedoms. Enjoy the bed you've made.
From that light, Mono's frustration with the protesters would make sense. It's not like they have a chance of winning.
If that were all there is to it, maybe. But to me it seems like a much bigger component is his "let them eat cake" attitude towards the protesters. Somehow he managed to snag a civil service job, and now he's suddenly superior to all the rabble on the outside of the winner-takes-all system.
The finance guys in the investment banks are the real winners. As I have been saying all these years, I am a loser.
And you have made that abundantly clear over the last 10 days or so.
Quote from: sbr on October 04, 2014, 04:00:39 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 03:45:27 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 04, 2014, 11:48:09 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2014, 09:30:09 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 09:02:19 AM
Here's a supposition for you: CCP considers Hong Kong kind of an experimental deal to see how well they can deal with emboldened masses. It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to guess that CCP's going to decide that the status quo has emboldened HK citizens too much and issue a crackdown on personal freedoms. Enjoy the bed you've made.
From that light, Mono's frustration with the protesters would make sense. It's not like they have a chance of winning.
If that were all there is to it, maybe. But to me it seems like a much bigger component is his "let them eat cake" attitude towards the protesters. Somehow he managed to snag a civil service job, and now he's suddenly superior to all the rabble on the outside of the winner-takes-all system.
The finance guys in the investment banks are the real winners. As I have been saying all these years, I am a loser.
And you have made that abundantly clear over the last 10 days or so.
Huh, at last I am successful in convincing someone of my viewpoint ;)
The rumours are everywhere. Today is Sunday here, the last day in the "special week" where there are only 3 working days. They have now blocked all entrances to government HQs. The only people inside the building this weekend are riot police. The Chief Executive has vowed on TV that we civil servants must get back to work on Monday. A lot of people predict the government will clear the roads at all costs tonight. There are all sorts of predictions from rubber bullets to PLA.
A feature of the riots is that there is very little command and control. Many times, the student unions and the 3 guys who organised the Occupy Central movement asked the crowd to leave, only to be ignored. There are regular disagreements and infighting among rioters on what to do, and tons of different groups and factions. Lots of rioters obey no one but themselves. The days of only needing to control the microphone and the stage in order to control the crowd are over. This makes it difficult for police to clear the roads by force, but also makes it hard to find a political exit.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 03:45:27 PM
The finance guys in the investment banks are the real winners. As I have been saying all these years, I am a loser.
In many ways you probably are, but you still have it much better than most people, judging from your earlier posts.
Quote from: DGuller on October 04, 2014, 04:26:55 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 03:45:27 PM
The finance guys in the investment banks are the real winners. As I have been saying all these years, I am a loser.
In many ways you probably are, but you still have it much better than most people, judging from your earlier posts.
I don't necessarily have to be better than most people to say that the status quo should be maintained. Just like my hated World Cup status quo system doesn't necessarily have to benefit the HK/China football team :P
And yet you are. Both in your current capacity and in your birth to and upbringing among an extremely privileged family.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 05:26:08 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 04, 2014, 04:26:55 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 03:45:27 PM
The finance guys in the investment banks are the real winners. As I have been saying all these years, I am a loser.
In many ways you probably are, but you still have it much better than most people, judging from your earlier posts.
I don't necessarily have to be better than most people to say that the status quo should be maintained. Just like my hated World Cup status quo system doesn't necessarily have to benefit the HK/China football team :P
This isn't a silly game. :rolleyes: I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but society evolves by critically evaluating status quo and changing it when warranted. You have described very well the problems that the protesters are facing, and yet that counts for nothing compared to status quo and clear roads. I have more sympathy for people in denial, at least denial is often caused by refusal to contemplate an injustice, but you actively embrace it. I don't understand this kind of mental malfunction.
I guess I take his issue as pragmatic. Beijing cannot be swayed by the protestors or they lose face....so all they are doing is making Beijing compelled to act against Hong Kong. I guess I take it as Mono recognizing a lose-lose situation and getting upset.
I mean I would rather he was running the revolutionary underground with plans to keep assassinating corrupt officials until Beijing gives into their demands....but you take what can get.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2014, 08:23:05 PM
I guess I take his issue as pragmatic. Beijing cannot be swayed by the protestors or they lose face....so all they are doing is making Beijing compelled to act against Hong Kong. I guess I take it as Mono recognizing a lose-lose situation and getting upset.
I mean I would rather he was running the revolutionary underground with plans to keep assassinating corrupt officials until Beijing gives into their demands....but you take what can get.
I understand pragmatism. What pushes Mono over the edge into despicable territory is all the disdain he heaps on the "losers", when in fact his own description of the problem makes it obvious that the way things are organized inevitably creates "losers". You can refuse to support people without describing them with disdainful epithets.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FB65mtE2TN1w%2Fhqdefault.jpg&hash=99625c26bb3a8cf360b33404a9502d240879422a)
Quote from: DGuller on October 04, 2014, 08:19:50 PM
This isn't a silly game. :rolleyes: I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but society evolves by critically evaluating status quo and changing it when warranted. You have described very well the problems that the protesters are facing, and yet that counts for nothing compared to status quo and clear roads. I have more sympathy for people in denial, at least denial is often caused by refusal to contemplate an injustice, but you actively embrace it. I don't understand this kind of mental malfunction.
I am a loser too. I failed to become a financial wizard. Do I go occupy roads, prevent others from going to work, pick an impossible fight with Beijing and risk PLA tanks rolling in, and demand more welfare? Life is tough for most, but we all can make the most out of it instead of dragging everybody down with your problems. You want to demonstrate? Do so in a park and nobody will complain.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 09:34:14 PM
You want to demonstrate? Do so in a park and nobody will complain.
And everybody will ignore you. Liu Bang could have just meekly protested before allowing himself to be executed by the Qin...is that what you would have encouraged him to do? Eh?
I can't wait for some hot tank on protester action
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 09:34:14 PM
I am a loser too. I failed to become a financial wizard. Do I go occupy roads, prevent others from going to work, pick an impossible fight with Beijing and risk PLA tanks rolling in, and demand more welfare? Life is tough for most, but we all can make the most out of it instead of dragging everybody down with your problems. You want to demonstrate? Do so in a park and nobody will complain.
Exactly. That's the whole point of a protest. To draw greater attention to the issue, force people to pick sides. Hell, the protest has even been partially successful in your case- it's taken you from apathy to extreme support of the government.
A protest that doesn't bother anyone is pointless.
The official mainland media is using increasingly combative language to describe events, and there is greater coverage. I think Beijing increasingly views this as Tian An Men 2.0. They publicly admit that 1989 almost ended the party. It is no longer a skin disease, but a life and death struggle.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 09:45:58 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 09:34:14 PM
I am a loser too. I failed to become a financial wizard. Do I go occupy roads, prevent others from going to work, pick an impossible fight with Beijing and risk PLA tanks rolling in, and demand more welfare? Life is tough for most, but we all can make the most out of it instead of dragging everybody down with your problems. You want to demonstrate? Do so in a park and nobody will complain.
Exactly. That's the whole point of a protest. To draw greater attention to the issue, force people to pick sides. Hell, the protest has even been partially successful in your case- it's taken you from apathy to extreme support of the government.
A protest that doesn't bother anyone is pointless.
A lot of things are better left ambiguous, or unsaid. I for one don't want Beijing to pick a side too, for I know which side they'll pick.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 09:48:15 PM
The official mainland media is using increasingly combative language to describe events, and there is greater coverage. I think Beijing increasingly views this as Tian An Men 2.0. They publicly admit that 1989 almost ended the party. It is no longer a skin disease, but a life and death struggle.
No doubt they gain a great deal of assurance from the unquestioning support from the HK civil service.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 09:48:15 PM
The official mainland media is using increasingly combative language to describe events, and there is greater coverage. I think Beijing increasingly views this as Tian An Men 2.0. They publicly admit that 1989 almost ended the party. It is no longer a skin disease, but a life and death struggle.
Overreact much Beijing?
Anyway I hope all the corpses and burning buildings do not block your way to work.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2014, 09:51:37 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 09:48:15 PM
The official mainland media is using increasingly combative language to describe events, and there is greater coverage. I think Beijing increasingly views this as Tian An Men 2.0. They publicly admit that 1989 almost ended the party. It is no longer a skin disease, but a life and death struggle.
Overreact much Beijing?
Anyway I hope all the corpses and burning buildings do not block your way to work.
Ever since this started, I have sworn to myself that, even if I have to walk past tanks and piles of bodies on the ground, I will go back to work.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 09:54:30 PM
Ever since this started, I have sworn to myself that, even if I have to walk past tanks and piles of bodies on the ground, I will go back to work.
Yeah that was what the Governor of the Bastille said.
I'd sit on my giant pile of TP and MRE's.
Mono, have you completely forgotten your Canadian passport? If you're that worried about stability, you could go somewhere less unstable.
Seriously, your stubbornness dips to idiotic levels sometimes.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2014, 09:59:31 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 09:54:30 PM
Ever since this started, I have sworn to myself that, even if I have to walk past tanks and piles of bodies on the ground, I will go back to work.
Yeah that was what the Governor of the Bastille said.
Pretty sure there were no tanks in the 18th century :P
Joking aside, I don't think comparisons with the French revolution are valid at all. As I have said many times, the closest parallel is Tian An Men, and we all know how it ended.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 10:03:05 PM
Mono, have you completely forgotten your Canadian passport? If you're that worried about stability, you could go somewhere less unstable.
Seriously, your stubbornness dips to idiotic levels sometimes.
I think we have known each other for over 10 years now. I am sure you have heard some variation of "I can't get a job in Canada", right?
Isn't he counting on his retirement fund or something? Does he get to keep that if he flees to Halifax, Nova Scotia?
I gotta say, Mono's got one hell of a good troll going. :lol:
Quote from: Camerus on October 04, 2014, 10:06:54 PM
I gotta say, Mono's got one hell of a good troll going. :lol:
Does this mean that I am a "genuinely bad person", according to a neighbouring thread? ;)
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 10:03:51 PM
Pretty sure there were no tanks in the 18th century :P
Joking aside, I don't think comparisons with the French revolution are valid at all. As I have said many times, the closest parallel is Tian An Men, and we all know how it ended.
Actually, I think it would get uglier. China's trade deficit should make them loathe to do what they did at Tian An Men, since it'd be a lot easier for other countries to find out even quicker this time around.
If they're going to go the suppression route, it would need to look like a struggle, which would involve propping up "revolutionaries" just enough for a weeks- or even months-long crackdown. If you've got problems with a bunch of students sitting around in the street, I don't think you'd last long in a situation of serious political upheaval.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 10:08:30 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 10:03:51 PM
Pretty sure there were no tanks in the 18th century :P
Joking aside, I don't think comparisons with the French revolution are valid at all. As I have said many times, the closest parallel is Tian An Men, and we all know how it ended.
Actually, I think it would get uglier. China's trade deficit should make them loathe to do what they did at Tian An Men, since it'd be a lot easier for other countries to find out even quicker this time around.
If they're going to go the suppression route, it would need to look like a struggle, which would involve propping up "revolutionaries" just enough for a weeks- or even months-long crackdown. If you've got problems with a bunch of students sitting around in the street, I don't think you'd last long in a situation of serious political upheaval.
Like I said earlier, all major Chinese cities are now equipped with armed police forces trained in the art of non-lethal force. They now have the option of removing large crowds without causing too many deaths. The international reaction will be mild if nobody dies.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 10:03:51 PM
Joking aside, I don't think comparisons with the French revolution are valid at all. As I have said many times, the closest parallel is Tian An Men, and we all know how it ended.
With the martyrs of Tian An Men being heroic inspirations to the rest of the world? Revolutionary heroes who will never be forgotten? Damn straight.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2014, 10:11:24 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 10:03:51 PM
Joking aside, I don't think comparisons with the French revolution are valid at all. As I have said many times, the closest parallel is Tian An Men, and we all know how it ended.
With the martyrs of Tian An Men being heroic inspirations to the rest of the world? Revolutionary heroes who will never be forgotten? Damn straight.
A determined HK/Chinese government can remove tens of thousands of rioters without resorting to killing anyone. Such an episode will be forgotten in the rest of the world soon.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 10:13:43 PM
A determined HK/Chinese government can remove tens of thousands of rioters without resorting to killing anyone. Such an episode will be forgotten in the rest of the world soon.
These days even if they did murder them all it would be forgotten, the 24 hour new cycle is awfully fickle.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 09:45:58 PM
Exactly. That's the whole point of a protest. To draw greater attention to the issue, force people to pick sides. Hell, the protest has even been partially successful in your case- it's taken you from apathy to extreme support of the government.
A protest that doesn't bother anyone is pointless.
You don't seem very happy with the people side people are picking.
The purpose of a protest is to demonstrate to the authorities and the public at large that people very strongly about an issue. This can be done just as easily in a park as it can in the middle of a highway.
What these protesters are trying to do is impose their minority position on the majority. Either we get our way, or everybody goes down in flames.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2014, 10:16:30 PM
The purpose of a protest is to demonstrate to the authorities and the public at large that people very strongly about an issue. This can be done just as easily in a park as it can in the middle of a highway.
Well I guess that is true. The Tian An Men people didn't block any roads....and look how that turned out Mono.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2014, 10:18:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2014, 10:16:30 PM
The purpose of a protest is to demonstrate to the authorities and the public at large that people very strongly about an issue. This can be done just as easily in a park as it can in the middle of a highway.
Well I guess that is true. The Tian An Men people didn't block any roads....and look how that turned out Mono.
I've been to Tian An Men. That place really can contain hundreds of thousands of people.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 10:20:03 PM
I've been to Tian An Men. That place really can contain hundreds of thousands of people.
I guess there is no place like that in tightly packed Hong Kong? Like a HK Central Park?
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2014, 10:21:06 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 04, 2014, 10:20:03 PM
I've been to Tian An Men. That place really can contain hundreds of thousands of people.
I guess there is no place like that in tightly packed Hong Kong? Like a HK Central Park?
We have that, actually. The rioters have been advised to go there, but of course they refuse. See Don'tSayBanana above for the reason :yucky:
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 04, 2014, 10:08:30 PM
Actually, I think it would get uglier. China's trade deficit should make them loathe to do what they did at Tian An Men, since it'd be a lot easier for other countries to find out even quicker this time around.
Pretty sure China is running a substantial trade surplus.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2014, 10:16:30 PM
What these protesters are trying to do is impose their minority position on the majority. Either we get our way, or everybody goes down in flames.
Awh man, if only there was some sort of system of governance where the majority had a way to voice their opinion.
Quote from: Jacob on October 04, 2014, 11:30:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 04, 2014, 10:16:30 PM
What these protesters are trying to do is impose their minority position on the majority. Either we get our way, or everybody goes down in flames.
Awh man, if only there was some sort of system of governance where the majority had a way to voice their opinion.
Hong Kong switch to that to head off future disturbances.
Quote from: Jacob on October 04, 2014, 11:30:08 PM
Awh man, if only there was some sort of system of governance where the majority had a way to voice their opinion.
There are.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 12:02:14 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 04, 2014, 11:30:08 PM
Awh man, if only there was some sort of system of governance where the majority had a way to voice their opinion.
There are.
:frusty:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 12:02:14 AM
There are.
Hmmm... maybe they should consider adapting that in Hong Kong then. That might alleviate some of these difficulties.
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 12:10:53 AM
Hmmm... maybe they should consider adapting that in Hong Kong then. That might alleviate some of these difficulties.
Unless I'm mistaken, Hong Kong has a free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 12:14:41 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 12:10:53 AM
Hmmm... maybe they should consider adapting that in Hong Kong then. That might alleviate some of these difficulties.
Unless I'm mistaken, Hong Kong has a free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly.
That is correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Hong_Kong
It seems freedom of press is questionable.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 12:14:41 AM
Unless I'm mistaken, Hong Kong has a free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly.
Are any of those a system of governance?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 12:14:41 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 12:10:53 AM
Hmmm... maybe they should consider adapting that in Hong Kong then. That might alleviate some of these difficulties.
Unless I'm mistaken, Hong Kong has a free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly.
So does Russia.
Quote from: Martinus on October 05, 2014, 03:34:25 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Hong_Kong
It seems freedom of press is questionable.
According to the link to the press freedom index compiled by Reporters Without Borders, our ranking is about the same as Japan, and ahead of Israel and EU countries like Greece and Hungary. What more do you want? Of course some people will be unhappy with individual incidents. AppleDaily, a major newspaper in HK, is blatently anti-government in all its news reports.
2014:
the US: 46th
Italy: 49th
Japan: 59th
HK: 61st
Hungary: 64th
Israel: 96th
Greece: 99th
Russia: 148th
Singapore: 150th
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index
Quote from: Martinus on October 05, 2014, 03:35:43 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 12:14:41 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 12:10:53 AM
Hmmm... maybe they should consider adapting that in Hong Kong then. That might alleviate some of these difficulties.
Unless I'm mistaken, Hong Kong has a free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly.
So does Russia.
Search "1 July protests" then. Every year, hundreds of thousands legally march against the government on that day. Don't trust me, google it yourself.
Infighting has broken out among the rioters. Faced with an impending government deadline to ensure that government HQs is open for Monday tomorrow, some want to retreat and regroup, while others want to take a hard line. Tons of conflicting news on whether they will withdraw or not. Different factions blame each other for betrayal.
I have no idea what will happen tonight. The only thing I am certain, is that I will go to work tomorrow. Or at least, try to. I am beginning to worry about the personal safety of my wife and I. Did anybody die when the Reichstag was burnt down in the thirties? We work inside the largest and most prominent symbol of HK government's power. I will check the fire evacuation route tomorrow. I used to never bother with these things.
What would the Chinese government have to gain from burning down your building? :huh:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 05, 2014, 07:43:45 AM
What would the Chinese government have to gain from burning down your building? :huh:
The rioters. Some of them are getting increasingly radical.
Do you believe the communists were responsible for the Reichstag fire? :hmm:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 05, 2014, 08:26:28 AM
Do you believe the communists were responsible for the Reichstag fire? :hmm:
No, of course not. That's not very reassuring though.
Quote from: frunk on October 05, 2014, 03:34:36 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 12:14:41 AM
Unless I'm mistaken, Hong Kong has a free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly.
Are any of those a system of governance?
Don't confuse him.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 12:14:41 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 12:10:53 AM
Hmmm... maybe they should consider adapting that in Hong Kong then. That might alleviate some of these difficulties.
Unless I'm mistaken, Hong Kong has a free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly.
:frusty:
Anyway it sounds like your freedom to peaceful assembly requires some sort of police permission.
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: frunk on October 05, 2014, 03:34:36 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 12:14:41 AM
Unless I'm mistaken, Hong Kong has a free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly.
Are any of those a system of governance?
Don't confuse him.
When people here encounter a text, do they actually read it or do they just look at the pretty symbols? Yi wrote "There are.", which obviously refers to ways the majority has to voice their opinion.
Quote from: The Brain on October 05, 2014, 10:41:03 AM
When people here encounter a text, do they actually read it or do they just look at the pretty symbols? Yi wrote "There are.", which obviously refers to ways the majority has to voice their opinion.
Voicing an opinion doesn't matter much if no one is listening.
Quote from: The Brain on October 05, 2014, 10:41:03 AM
When people here encounter a text, do they actually read it or do they just look at the pretty symbols? Yi wrote "There are.", which obviously refers to ways the majority has to voice their opinion.
Yet we were speaking of governance.
I thought we were talking about systems of governance in which the majority have a way to express their opinion.
At least I was. And Jacob was at one point too.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 01:16:14 PM
I thought we were talking about systems of governance in which the majority have a way to express their opinion.
At least I was. And Jacob was at one point too.
Free speech would be an example of the people expressing their opinion within the system of governance if it was somehow made binding in how the government operated. There's a difference between how the government works and what the government allows.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 01:16:14 PM
I thought we were talking about systems of governance in which the majority have a way to express their opinion.
At least I was. And Jacob was at one point too.
I am. "Free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly" do not constitute a system of governance; they are rights that you may, or may not, be able to exercise under any given system.
You were decrying how a (presumed) minority is imposing their desires on a (presumed) majority through protests. I was suggesting, perhaps too obliquely, that under a democratic system the (presumed) minority would have alternate means of influencing the direction of their polity without resorting to protests.
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 02:54:08 PM
I am. "Free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly" do not constitute a system of governance; they are rights that you may, or may not, be able to exercise under any given system.
You were decrying how a (presumed) minority is imposing their desires on a (presumed) majority through protests. I was suggesting, perhaps too obliquely, that under a democratic system the (presumed) minority would have alternate means of influencing the direction of their polity without resorting to protests.
I would be willing to right this whole thing off as a tiresome semantic misunderstanding except you don't seem to understand how "a system of government in which people can express their opinions" can be reasonably interpreted as a system of governance which allows people to express their opinions.
It's debateable how much a minority can influence policy in truly democratic systems. Most democratic systems observe majority rule. The US system is different in that the division of powers allows organized minorities to block action if they control one or more levers of power. The times when that happens tend not to be celebrated here on Languish.
No one disputes that the Hong Kong political system is constructed in such a way as to severely limit the ability of the people to decide their own fate. If I were a resident of Hong Kong I would resent that very much. Then the question is what to do about it. I think we all agree that under the present arrangement they are free to bitch about it.
However the present demonstrators are bitching about it in a way that (a) imposes hardships on a large number of people, and (b) at least in some people's minds raises the possibility of Beijing sending in the tanks and limiting even further civic freedoms in Hong Kong. A lot of folks in this thread are treating it as a good vs. evil situation, whereas i think it's much more gray. The demonstrators are: well-intentioned, naive, and selfish.
There is also a third possible result: the protests are doomed to fail, but at the same time their existence will give Beijing pause next time they try to whittle away HK's autonomy. Protests don't always have to succeed to succeed.
Quote from: DGuller on October 05, 2014, 03:32:20 PM
There is also a third possible result: the protests are doomed to fail, but at the same time their existence will give Beijing pause next time they try to whittle away HK's autonomy. Protests don't always have to succeed to succeed.
Next time? Has Beijing recently whittled away their autonomy? I thought they were operating under the system that obtained when the British left.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 07:34:51 AM
Infighting has broken out among the rioters. Faced with an impending government deadline to ensure that government HQs is open for Monday tomorrow, some want to retreat and regroup, while others want to take a hard line. Tons of conflicting news on whether they will withdraw or not. Different factions blame each other for betrayal.
I have no idea what will happen tonight. The only thing I am certain, is that I will go to work tomorrow. Or at least, try to. I am beginning to worry about the personal safety of my wife and I. Did anybody die when the Reichstag was burnt down in the thirties? We work inside the largest and most prominent symbol of HK government's power. I will check the fire evacuation route tomorrow. I used to never bother with these things.
Interesting you should mention the Reichstag fire, because what if the HK government building catches fire tomorrow, with you and other civil servants in it?
Whoever might start it, one things for sure, Beijing would use the opportunity to crush all opposition, possibly invoke direct rule, suspend HK democratic and legal institutions, reasserting authority at a difficult time.
Then it wouldn't matter who started it, 'rioters', accident, military or a false-flag affair, the outcome would be the opportunity given to the forces of oppression.
Maybe China would dub it, 'its 9/11'. Perhaps in their calculus the lives of a few hundred middle ranking official wouldn't figure very highly?
Mono, maybe it's a not a very good idea to go to work tomorrow?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 03:25:02 PMA lot of folks in this thread are treating it as a good vs. evil situation, whereas i think it's much more gray.
Semantic quibbling and languish posturing aside, I agree that it is not black vs white. I know plenty of good people in HK who have misgivings about the demonstrators.
QuoteThe demonstrators are: well-intentioned, naive, and selfish.
The first two, yes; but that in no way undermines their cause in my view; cynical pragmatism is not always the best attitude if you're looking to alter fundamental political realities.
As for the third, no more selfish than MLK civil right marchers or Gandhi marchers or suffragettes or any other mass movement looking to alter the status quo in the face of inadequate democratic mechanisms.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 03:35:31 PMNext time? Has Beijing recently whittled away their autonomy? I thought they were operating under the system that obtained when the British left.
Many of the people who took to the street recently did so to protest a "patriotic curriculum" being imposed from Beijing, successfully in fact.
Whether Beijing is determinedly whittling away autonomy or staying as hands off as possible, and to what degree rousing popular intransigence in Hong Kong matters is probably a matter of perspective.
The Bureaucracy as the last moneymaking sector? Those same bureaucrats doing whatever it takes to remain in power? Blue turbans vs Yellow turbans?
Looks like someone lost the Mandate of Heaven.
There hasn't been much reported on how this is going over with the mainland Chinese. Obviously the government won't be reporting it to them I expect, but I would be very surprised if the news wasn't getting through anyway
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2014, 03:37:54 PM
Mono, maybe it's a not a very good idea to go to work tomorrow?
I am leaving for work *now* and your effort to help destabilise the regime has failed :P
Quote from: Tyr on October 05, 2014, 05:53:52 PM
There hasn't been much reported on how this is going over with the mainland Chinese. Obviously the government won't be reporting it to them I expect, but I would be very surprised if the news wasn't getting through anyway
From what I've heard - and this is anecdotal - there's a fair bit of "WTF are they complaining about?" Some of it is "I have no idea about the issues at all", some of it is "after all we've done for them, they're bitching? Assholes". There's also a not insignificant amount of "good luck to them."
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 05:25:41 PM
The first two, yes; but that in no way undermines their cause in my view; cynical pragmatism is not always the best attitude if you're looking to alter fundamental political realities.
Pragmatism is not by definition cynical.
QuoteAs for the third, no more selfish than MLK civil right marchers or Gandhi marchers or suffragettes or any other mass movement looking to alter the status quo in the face of inadequate democratic mechanisms.
What is the equivalent in those movements of the Hong Kong resident deprived of his livelihood?
Quote from: chipwich on October 05, 2014, 05:34:46 PM
The Bureaucracy as the last moneymaking sector? Those same bureaucrats doing whatever it takes to remain in power? Blue turbans vs Yellow turbans?
Looks like someone lost the Mandate of Heaven.
The Mandate of Heaven was called into question in Tian An Men, 1989. It was confirmed not just by the tanks that rolled into the plaza, but by the vast majority of Chinese who chose to carry on their lives normally. 25 years later, history will hopefully repeat itself, this time with tear gas rather than bullets.
Quote from: DGuller on October 05, 2014, 03:32:20 PM
There is also a third possible result: the protests are doomed to fail, but at the same time their existence will give Beijing pause next time they try to whittle away HK's autonomy. Protests don't always have to succeed to succeed.
I think the exact opposite will happen. History has shown that Beijing takes a hard line against dissent.
So I am back at work. On the footbridge that linked the train station and government HQs, there were hundreds of reporters and cameras from all over the world, and they all wanted to film and interview us civil servants as we walked back to work. I'll not be surprised if my wife and I somehow end up in a BBC or CNN photograph.
And everybody I know is back. I am not aware of anybody who called in sick or took leave. A colleague who suffered from a severe baterial infection last week that resulted in a partial loss of vision (100% blind in one eye) is also back.
Quote from: Tyr on October 05, 2014, 05:53:52 PM
There hasn't been much reported on how this is going over with the mainland Chinese. Obviously the government won't be reporting it to them I expect, but I would be very surprised if the news wasn't getting through anyway
They are reporting it to them, in their own way of course. There is no way the communists can block this, because millions of mainlanders come to HK as tourists, and they continue to do so. In this case, may as well tell them the official version.
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 06:02:15 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 05, 2014, 05:53:52 PM
There hasn't been much reported on how this is going over with the mainland Chinese. Obviously the government won't be reporting it to them I expect, but I would be very surprised if the news wasn't getting through anyway
From what I've heard - and this is anecdotal - there's a fair bit of "WTF are they complaining about?" Some of it is "I have no idea about the issues at all", some of it is "after all we've done for them, they're bitching? Assholes". There's also a not insignificant amount of "good luck to them."
There is some truth in those allegations. Beijing has tried to appease us by giving us favourable economic treatment. The most important reason they flood us with tourists is to revive our economy that was wrecked in the 2003 SARS epidemic. They also give our banks and professionals preferential treatment when they operate on the mainland.
Jeez, the rioters still insist in their "citizen nomination" demand, i.e. any HK citizen can nominate a candidate in the Chief Executive election. It is explicitly stated in the Basic Law that all such candidates must be nominated by a committee. If you want to negotiate, at least obey the letter of the law. There are a ton of ways to get around the committee, like having some of them to be directly elected (already the case, actually), and only needing a low number of committee members to nominate a candidate. What do they do? MUST BE CITIZEN NOMINATION. I really doubt if they are serious about the negotiations. They just want to play martyr.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 08:42:48 PM
Jeez, the rioters still insist in their "citizen nomination" demand, i.e. any HK citizen can nominate a candidate in the Chief Executive election. It is explicitly stated in the Basic Law that all such candidates must be nominated by a committee. If you want to negotiate, at least obey the letter of the law. There are a ton of ways to get around the committee, like having some of them to be directly elected (already the case, actually), and only needing a low number of committee members to nominate a candidate. What do they do? MUST BE CITIZEN NOMINATION. I really doubt if they are serious about the negotiations. They just want to play martyr.
Good on them. :punk:
Quote from: garbon on October 05, 2014, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 08:42:48 PM
Jeez, the rioters still insist in their "citizen nomination" demand, i.e. any HK citizen can nominate a candidate in the Chief Executive election. It is explicitly stated in the Basic Law that all such candidates must be nominated by a committee. If you want to negotiate, at least obey the letter of the law. There are a ton of ways to get around the committee, like having some of them to be directly elected (already the case, actually), and only needing a low number of committee members to nominate a candidate. What do they do? MUST BE CITIZEN NOMINATION. I really doubt if they are serious about the negotiations. They just want to play martyr.
Good on them. :punk:
Too late. The National People's Congress has already decided and formally announced that all candidates must be approved by half the committee. It is as formal and official as possible.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 08:51:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 05, 2014, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 08:42:48 PM
Jeez, the rioters still insist in their "citizen nomination" demand, i.e. any HK citizen can nominate a candidate in the Chief Executive election. It is explicitly stated in the Basic Law that all such candidates must be nominated by a committee. If you want to negotiate, at least obey the letter of the law. There are a ton of ways to get around the committee, like having some of them to be directly elected (already the case, actually), and only needing a low number of committee members to nominate a candidate. What do they do? MUST BE CITIZEN NOMINATION. I really doubt if they are serious about the negotiations. They just want to play martyr.
Good on them. :punk:
Too late. The National People's Congress has already decided and formally announced that all candidates must be approved by half the committee. It is as formal and official as possible.
The national 'people's congress has decided that the people cannot decide this. :hmm:
Quote from: mongers on October 05, 2014, 08:56:16 PM
The national 'people's congress has decided that the people cannot decide this. :hmm:
Unhappy? Go to Tian An Men to protest then. That's where the Congress is located. Not block the roads of HK people who have nothing to do with this.
There are media reports of workers who have applied for leave from their bosses to take part in the riots.
The response: leave granted, and it is forever.
Lolz
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 07:05:06 PM
Pragmatism is not by definition cynical.
Agreed, which is why I applied the modifier.
QuoteWhat is the equivalent in those movements of the Hong Kong resident deprived of his livelihood?
Whoever was economically inconvenienced by the mass actions taken. Are you proposing that there were none?
Garry Kasparov on China and Russia: http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/03/unfortunately-for-hong-kong-protesters-its-almost-impossible-to-beat-a-savvy-modern-autocracy/
QuoteWhy are the pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong enduring where their counterparts in my country failed? A simplistic answer is that even the student Hong Kongers who barely recall the 1997 handover from the United Kingdom to China are accustomed to their special status and rights relative to the rest of China. The flame of Russian democracy, by contrast, flickered only briefly before President Vladimir Putin squelched it, and the memories of the chaos and corruption of the 1990s are not fond ones for most Russians. Thanks to a decade of anti-democracy propaganda and the annihilation of civil society, Russians worry, not unreasonably, that toppling Putin could lead to something even worse.
But there is something deeper at work. In truth, the Communist dictatorship in China needs its people—especially its young, educated, and global-minded ones—in a way Putin doesn't. Hong Kong is still a large and strategically critical piece of a Chinese economy that depends on consumers in the free world, consumers who have far more information about the protests than nearly anyone in heavily censored China. A Tiananmen massacre in Hong Kong, transmitted around the world on millions of Chinese-made iPhones, could turn "Made in China" into a bloody mark.
Putin, on the other hand, has no use for the people of Russia, especially its young and educated. He and his junta are turning the country into a petro-state, and exporting natural resources to an insatiable global market doesn't require entrepreneurs or programmers, let alone writers and professors. It's also harder for disgusted consumer-countries to boycott oil and gas. That would require coordinated political will, a substance Putin knows is far rarer in the free world than the platinum and diamonds in the Ural Mountains.
Decades of economic and political engagement with the West and improved standards of living were supposed to liberalize dictatorships and provide leverage against them. But leverage is only useful if applied, and it is not clear Western countries are willing to do this. Seven months after Putin annexed Crimea and two and a half months after Russian-allied forces shot down a commercial airliner over Ukraine, Europe is still "considering" looking at ways to substitute Russian gas. The European Union gets a third of its oil and gas from Russia while buying over 80 percent of Russia's petro-exports. Instead of using this overwhelming economic influence to deter Putin's aggression, the Europeans feign helplessness.
The citizens of China and Russia have similar social compacts with their authoritarian governments: economic stability in exchange for their human rights. They both have heavily censored state propaganda instead of news and minimal freedom of speech and assembly. The key difference is that the Chinese regime is built on a broad collective and ideological base that is unlikely to experience drastic shifts. Putin's Russia, on the other hand, is the most dangerous and unpredictable form of government: the dictatorship of just one man. The skyrocketing price of oil through the 2000s allowed Putin to fulfill, if marginally, his promises of pensions and payrolls. China started from a much lower point and managed to raise a billion people out of poverty by turning an entire nation into the world's factory. Globalization and integration with rich free economies made both the Russian and Chinese scenarios possible.
The reason the developed world won't fight back is that most consumers there would rather not know where their phones and gas come from as long as the prices are low. The occasional scandal over inhuman working conditions in Chinese factories is quickly and conveniently forgotten when the next shoe or gadget comes out.
Disputes between Washington and Moscow or Beijing are quickly criticized (often by the policymakers themselves) as a "return to the Cold War." This use of this cliché today is ironic, since it requires forgetting, rather than emulating, how the Cold War was fought and won. Instead of standing on principles of good and evil, of right and wrong, and on the universal values of human rights and human life, we have "engagement," "resets," and moral equivalence. The Cold War was won not just by military or economic superiority, but on values that I, a former Soviet citizen, un-ironically call traditional American values. Chief among them is the belief that individual freedom matters and is worth sacrificing for, fighting for, even dying for. For now, the Hong Kong protesters appear admirably willing to test that proposition.
We cannot resolve the problems of globalization with the tools that created it. We need new frameworks to confront the globalized dictatorships in Russia and China. These frameworks must be based on moral principles, the only weapon the enemies of democracy cannot match. This is even more obvious when those enemies possess nuclear weapons, making a military confrontation unimaginable.
The protests in Hong Kong also rebut what I mock as "the genetic concept of democracy." For years I have been told that Russians (or Arabs, or Chinese) simply aren't disposed to democracy. They require a "strong hand" or they "love a tough leader." This is just one of many theories people born in the free world use to mask their privilege, their inaction, and their shame. It's condescending and ridiculous when you look at the two Germanys, the two Koreas, or Taiwan.
What is true is that no one is simply entitled to democracy, or even to basic human rights. No, these things must always be fought for, and if the brave students in Hong Kong can remind the world of this then their protest is already a success.
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 10:36:55 PM
What is true is that no one is simply entitled to democracy, or even to basic human rights. No, these things must always be fought for, and if the brave students in Hong Kong can remind the world of this then their protest is already a success.
No one says we should just throw away our human rights. There are smart ways to fight for human rights, and there are stupid ways. Telling China that we need freedom of speech to sustain our position as a financial centre is a good way to fight for our rights. Occupying roads, drawing international attention, and telling Chinese leaders to withdraw a decision that was publicly announced several weeks ago to undermine their authority and make them lose face is a stupid way to do it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 05, 2014, 03:25:02 PM
A lot of folks in this thread are treating it as a good vs. evil situation, whereas i think it's much more gray. The demonstrators are: well-intentioned, naive, and selfish.
I think this has been said many times in this thread. I myself has stated that the demonstrations might be a dangerous miscalculation. I don't get the selfish angle but hey whatever.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 10:47:29 PM
Occupying roads, drawing international attention, and telling Chinese leaders to withdraw a decision that was publicly announced several weeks ago to undermine their authority and make them lose face is a stupid way to do it.
I think you are right about this. If the protestors want to take down the central government they need to rally the mainlanders. Hard to do that in Hong Kong.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2014, 11:45:17 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 10:47:29 PM
Occupying roads, drawing international attention, and telling Chinese leaders to withdraw a decision that was publicly announced several weeks ago to undermine their authority and make them lose face is a stupid way to do it.
I think you are right about this. If the protestors want to take down the central government they need to rally the mainlanders. Hard to do that in Hong Kong.
One of the key underpinnings of One Country Two Systems is: we mind our business; they mind theirs. If we don't want interference from Beijing, we also have implicit responsibility not to mess with them. If we harbour groups that actively try to overthrow the communist regime, we only have ourselves to blame when the PLA comes to root them out. It isn't unfair for Beijing to demand that we keep these people off our city.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2014, 01:50:01 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2014, 11:45:17 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 10:47:29 PM
Occupying roads, drawing international attention, and telling Chinese leaders to withdraw a decision that was publicly announced several weeks ago to undermine their authority and make them lose face is a stupid way to do it.
I think you are right about this. If the protestors want to take down the central government they need to rally the mainlanders. Hard to do that in Hong Kong.
One of the key underpinnings of One Country Two Systems is: we mind our business; they mind theirs. If we don't want interference from Beijing, we also have implicit responsibility not to mess with them. If we harbour groups that actively try to overthrow the communist regime, we only have ourselves to blame when the PLA comes to root them out. It isn't unfair for Beijing to demand that we keep these people off our city.
But this arrangement was broken by Bejing going back on its promise regarding the elections of the Chief Executive, no?
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2014, 11:45:17 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 10:47:29 PM
Occupying roads, drawing international attention, and telling Chinese leaders to withdraw a decision that was publicly announced several weeks ago to undermine their authority and make them lose face is a stupid way to do it.
I think you are right about this. If the protestors want to take down the central government they need to rally the mainlanders. Hard to do that in Hong Kong.
I think the protestors have no chance of succeeding, sadly. Essentially, Bejing has gone back on its promise it made under the Two System arrangement, and it just shows that the arrangement was unworkable in the first place - you just can't have a vastly more powerful side in a deal (and one that does not answer to any higher authority, even the authority of the public opinion) keep its word if it wants to break the arrangement - and the Hong Kong people are now painfully finding that out (much like the Ukrainians thought they had a territorial integrity deal with Russia).
I blame the Brits.
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2014, 03:04:35 AM
But this arrangement was broken by Bejing going back on its promise regarding the elections of the Chief Executive, no?
So a father promised "vacation" for his child, and it then turned out that such "vacation" consisted of camping in the city park. The child's reaction is to sit at the house door 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and prevents anybody from getting in or out.
Not defending Beijing's decision here, but I want to point out two things:
1. Beijing has never been specific about its promise to HK. They promised that we may elect the Chief Executive by "universal suffrage" in 2017. That's all they have said. We are still allowed to do that, just that we can only vote on nominees approved by Beijing. That's certainly not ideal, but from a certain perspective, one may argue that we just have different definitions of "universal suffrage". It is hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they have broken their promise, because it isn't clear what the promise is in the first place. The Basic Law has always specifically said that the nominees must be approved by a committee.
2. Even if Beijing has really gone back on its promise, is blocking roads the appropriate reaction? I am sure there are other ways to express frustration, e.g. organising legal marches and sit-ins.
From a more realistic perspective, politics is all about give and take. Democracy is Beijing's biggest sore point. I say we should give some ground here, in exchange for other stuff that are more important to us, like freedom of speech, judicial independence, right to local governance etc.
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
I blame the Brits.
And what do you think the Brits should have done? We are not Falkland islands, and they are not dealing with Argentina. There is no military solution available. I cannot think of any additional concession they could have extracted from China, given the huge advantages that China enjoy at the negotiating table (namely, that nothing short of nuclear war can stop the PLA from marching over, and that HK depends on China for everything from food, water, to trade).
Quote from: Monoriu on October 05, 2014, 08:34:15 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 05, 2014, 06:02:15 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 05, 2014, 05:53:52 PM
There hasn't been much reported on how this is going over with the mainland Chinese. Obviously the government won't be reporting it to them I expect, but I would be very surprised if the news wasn't getting through anyway
From what I've heard - and this is anecdotal - there's a fair bit of "WTF are they complaining about?" Some of it is "I have no idea about the issues at all", some of it is "after all we've done for them, they're bitching? Assholes". There's also a not insignificant amount of "good luck to them."
There is some truth in those allegations. Beijing has tried to appease us by giving us favourable economic treatment. The most important reason they flood us with tourists is to revive our economy that was wrecked in the 2003 SARS epidemic. They also give our banks and professionals preferential treatment when they operate on the mainland.
I thought beijing were trying to replace hong kong as a financial centre with shanghai?
Quote from: Tyr on October 06, 2014, 03:52:43 AM
I thought beijing were trying to replace hong kong as a financial centre with shanghai?
In the long-run. Takes time though. Meanwhile, their policy is to give us preferential treatment in exchange for political stability. Same thing they have done to Taiwan. On economic policy, Beijing can be generous. It is on the political stuff that they are strict. In particular, there is absolutely no way they'll give gound on democracy.
I am not sure if you guys are aware of this, but Beijing is actually quite frustrated with the HK government on welfare policy. Beijing's no. 1 concern is political stability. It wants more bread and circus in HK to appease the masses. The Chinese premier has told the HK Chief Executive many times, in front of cameras even, that he needs to do more to resolve "deep rooted issues", euphemism for the wealth gap. Beijing doesn't care if the HK government needs to raise taxes to create a better safety net; in fact it encourages the government to do so. This is reflected in local politics where all the leftist (read loyalist) parties are pro-welfare. The irony is that, Beijing actually shares the pan-democratic platform for a retirement safety net, even though they are sworn enemies on other issues.
The problem is that the local business sector and the civil servants do not agree. The former are concerned with profits, and the latter are concerned with balancing the books.
I guess the best solution, then, would be for Bejing to send a popular tribune to take over the local administration in Hong Kong and decimate civil servants and local business sector for bringing people into the streets with their selfish policies. :swiss:
I don't think the Romans would have given a shit about people being in the streets.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 06, 2014, 06:18:56 AM
I don't think the Romans would have given a shit about people being in the streets.
What does that have to do with Romans?
The words "tribune" and "decimate" evoke the Romans.
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2014, 06:05:26 AM
I guess the best solution, then, would be for Bejing to send a popular tribune to take over the local administration in Hong Kong and decimate civil servants and local business sector for bringing people into the streets with their selfish policies. :swiss:
I think the best solution is for Beijing to let HK conduct free and fair elections. If Beijing doesn't like a particular candidate, it may explain the reasons to the HK electorate, and threaten that if so-and-so is elected, it will exercise its lawful and constitutional powers to refuse to appoint him. I think this arrangement is a better alternative than using a vetting committee that prescreens the candidates. This will be seen as Beijing backtracking on its promises to allow universal suffrage in HK.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 06, 2014, 06:29:40 AM
The words "tribune" and "decimate" evoke the Romans.
I want merely to decimate Mono.
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2014, 06:35:05 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 06, 2014, 06:29:40 AM
The words "tribune" and "decimate" evoke the Romans.
I want merely to decimate Mono.
I don't think 90% Mono is going to be that different from 100% Mono.
He might have less trouble lifting his legs.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2014, 03:28:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
I blame the Brits.
And what do you think the Brits should have done?
I told you. They should have turned Hong Kong over to the rightful Chinese government in Taipei. :P
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 06, 2014, 05:01:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2014, 03:28:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
I blame the Brits.
And what do you think the Brits should have done?
I told you. They should have turned Hong Kong over to the rightful Chinese government in Taipei. :P
It's too bad that the UK recognized the PRC as the rightful government of China at the time. -_-
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2014, 03:28:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
I blame the Brits.
And what do you think the Brits should have done?
Brought real democracy to HK long, long before '97
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 06, 2014, 05:45:02 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2014, 03:28:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
I blame the Brits.
And what do you think the Brits should have done?
Brought real democracy to HK long, long before '97
I don't know. If they had brought it by 1897 that would have been sufficient.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 06, 2014, 05:45:02 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2014, 03:28:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
I blame the Brits.
And what do you think the Brits should have done?
Brought real democracy to HK long, long before '97
From the 40s-60s, HK was a safe haven for mainland refugees. People lived a hand to mouth existance, and were more concerned with whether they would have a next meal than democracy. Activists fought for stuff like the right to use Chinese in official communication, and welfare for the handicapped etc.
In 1967 (i.e. the beginning of the cultural revolution), the communists tried to wrestle control of the colony from the Brits by force. The Brits won but with great difficulty (the Portugese in Macau basically surrendered). So the Brits were careful to maintain control at all costs after the episode.
Starting from the 80s, any change in the political system basically required agreement with the Chinese.
Walked past the riot main camp today on my way to work. There are a lot fewer people there :yeah:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2014, 08:37:50 PM
Walked past the riot main camp today on my way to work. There are a lot fewer people there :yeah:
Excellent. So the people molesting the peaceful protestors have gone back to the mainland?
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 06, 2014, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2014, 08:37:50 PM
Walked past the riot main camp today on my way to work. There are a lot fewer people there :yeah:
Excellent. So the people molesting the peaceful protestors have gone back to the mainland?
It is Admiralty, the largest rioter base that is largely undisturbed compared with the others. Like I said, this is a normal working week compared with the previous week when there were only 3 working days. People need to go back to work and school. I guess many have accepted reality after venting steam for a bit more than a week. The Chief Executive is here to stay and Beijing has said on an almost daily basis that they will not give an inch of ground on matters of "national sovereignty" (i.e. democracy).
Quote6 October 2014 Last updated at 23:17
Representatives from Hong Kong's Occupy Central movement have agreed to hold formal talks with the government.
No date has been set but the students made it clear the talks would be called off if the remaining demonstrators were cleared from the streets by force.
As the protests entered their second week, crowds began to die down as civil servants returned to work on Monday.
Pro-democracy activists are protesting at China's plans to vet candidates when Hong Kong holds elections in 2017.
They are demanding that the central government in Beijing allow a fully free vote for the territory's leader.
The BBC's John Sudworth in Hong Kong says that although the number of protesters has fallen since the weekend, a hard-core group still remain and had bedded down on the barricades on Monday night.
Only a few hundred protesters remained on the streets on Monday night as the crowds' momentum slowed down
The first round of preparatory talks with student representatives and some government officials ended on Sunday night, and on Monday it was agreed that both sides would begin a formal dialogue.
The BBC's Juliana Liu in Hong Kong says protesters appear to have decided to beat a strategic, possibly temporary, retreat - partly out of sheer exhaustion.
She says activists have been encouraged by the news of the informal meetings to lay the groundwork for talks on political reform.
The protesters are angry at China's plans to vet candidates when Hong Kong holds elections in 2017.
Losing momentum?
Alex Chow, secretary-general of one of the main protest movements, the Hong Kong Federation of Students, told reporters he was not worried about the crowd dwindling.
"People need rest, but they will come out again. It doesn't mean the movement is diminishing. Many people still support it," he said.
Over the weekend Hong Kong Chief Executive CY Leung had called on the protesters to end the demonstrations, warning that police had a responsibility to take all actions necessary to resume order.
He said civil servants had to return to work and children needed to go to school.
Last week some protesters vowed to remain on the streets until Chief Executive Leung stood down
Alex Chow, one of the "Occupy Central" organisers, was recently elected as head of the Hong Kong Federation of Students
The protests have been largely peaceful despite disturbances after tear gas was deployed by police last week
In the past week parts of central Hong Kong were brought to a complete standstill as huge crowds in the tens of thousands gathered on the streets.
However the numbers of protesters had trickled down to the hundreds on Monday night, with around 500 protesters remaining camped outside in the main protest zone on Harcourt Road according to the South China Morning Post.
Several hundred remain in Mong Kok, north of the harbour, despite earlier calls by organisers for protesters to withdraw from that site, following clashes at the weekend with people opposed to the demonstrations. A smaller number of protesters are still camped out at Causeway Bay.
Police said on Monday that at least 37 people had been arrested so far in Mong Kok. They said five others had been arrested for allegedly hacking government websites.
The mass demonstrations have split opinion in Hong Kong, with many residents frustrated at the disruption caused by the protests.
On Monday the South China Morning Post reported that 59 prominent businessmen signed an open letter on the Occupy protests, saying: "Disrupting the social order of Hong Kong is not helpful to the development and discussion of the political reforms. Nor would it solve any problem."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29516487
Normalcy and the status quo are within sight.
Nobody expects much from the talks. There is no middle ground between the positions of the rioters and the HK government. In any case, the HK government has no authority to go beyond what Beijing has decided. So the talks (which are almost certain to be held in public in front of cameras) is just a PR stunt for both sides to say what they want to say to the public.
Quote5 October 2014 Last updated at 14:32
Hong Kong protests 'won't change things' - Lord Powell
Demonstrators are unhappy at China's vetting of candidates for Hong Kong's elections in 2017
A former adviser to Margaret Thatcher has said pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong are "unrealistic" and should enjoy the freedoms they already have.
Lord Powell, private secretary when Britain agreed to return the territory to China, said political rights in Hong Kong were always going to be limited.
Demonstrators took to the streets two weeks ago angry at China's plans to vet election candidates in 2017.
Hong Kong's leader has urged them to end their action before Monday.
CY Leung has warned that police would ensure government offices and schools could reopen after the weekend.
'That's life'
The protesters are demanding that the central government in Beijing allow Hong Kong to hold fully free elections in the next vote for the region's leader.
But speaking to BBC Radio 4's The World This Weekend, Lord Powell said: "People have the right to peaceful protest and by and large the protests have been peaceful. But they're also unrealistic.
"The position about elections has been clear since the law was published in 1991 and I don't believe for one moment the Chinese are going to change that basic position.
Asked about the protests he said: "It's a pity there is perhaps this small black cloud there but that's life. It has been there a long time and I don't believe it's going to change."
Lord Powell was a British diplomat before going on to advise prime ministers Mrs Thatcher and John Major
The cross-bench peer advised Mrs Thatcher between 1983 and 1991.
He is now a director of property developers Hong Kong Land Holdings, and chairman of the UK government's Asia Task Force.
China and the UK signed a joint declaration to return Hong Kong under the so-called "one country, two systems" formula in 1997.
It was agreed the territory would retain its capitalist economy but would become part of communist China.
'Moral responsibility'
"Hong Kong has always been part of China," Lord Powell added.
"We rented it for a while and we didn't introduce democracy... and one reason we didn't is because we knew it was eventually going back to China and it would have been far worse to introduce full democracy and then taken it away from them."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29498378
Lord Powell sounds like a bit of a cock.
I want to start using that again. "Oh you have a problem? Too bad, 'that's life.'"
- there was a report about some internet posters wanting to let the mainland people know "the truth". The way they proposed to get around mainland censors was to insert photographs of the riots in...pirated Japanese XXX movies, which are tolerated on the mainland. It may be nothing more than a few random guys joking around, until you notice this is exactly what Beijing fears most, that we are trying to undermine their rule on the mainland.
- some middle-aged dude screamed in front of the camera that the reason he slept on the streets for 9 days in a row was to have things get "back to the way they were in the past." He looked like a construction worker or a truck driver to me. In the past, these guys earned decent, lower middle class incomes. Now, even construction work has been outsourced. The developers built modules on the mainland with cheap labour, then assembled all the modules in HK, significantly cutting the number of workers needed in HK. Just like how they assemble aircraft. Right now, we need young, beautiful, presentable people with fluent Mandarin to sell US$10,000 handbags to mainland tourists in Louis Vuitton shops, not construction workers.
- walked past a wall with tons of posters on them. They are not about democracy, but housing. Housing is the source of all social unrest, the posters said. There is a lot of truth there. Our housing situation is a total disaster. I've seen a large scale official survey that says at least 200,000 (yes, 6 figures) are living in illegal flats not that much larger than a cage. People divide up a 300 square feet flat into 5 or 6 units, then rent them out at like US$800 each month. Nothing more than a bunker bed with four walls surrounding it. This is a place where the median income is US$16,000. Entire families have been burnt to death in those places due to accidents.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 07, 2014, 10:55:52 PM
- walked past a wall with tons of posters on them. They are not about democracy, but housing. Housing is the source of all social unrest, the posters said. There is a lot of truth there. Our housing situation is a total disaster. I've seen a large scale official survey that says at least 200,000 (yes, 6 figures) are living in illegal flats not that much larger than a cage. People divide up a 300 square feet flat into 5 or 6 units, then rent them out at like US$800 each month. Nothing more than a bunker bed with four walls surrounding it. This is a place where the median income is US$16,000. Entire families have been burnt to death in those places due to accidents.
But that's not your problem, you tell us.
Why should it be? How far do fires spread anyway?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 07, 2014, 11:03:12 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 07, 2014, 10:55:52 PM
- walked past a wall with tons of posters on them. They are not about democracy, but housing. Housing is the source of all social unrest, the posters said. There is a lot of truth there. Our housing situation is a total disaster. I've seen a large scale official survey that says at least 200,000 (yes, 6 figures) are living in illegal flats not that much larger than a cage. People divide up a 300 square feet flat into 5 or 6 units, then rent them out at like US$800 each month. Nothing more than a bunker bed with four walls surrounding it. This is a place where the median income is US$16,000. Entire families have been burnt to death in those places due to accidents.
But that's not your problem, you tell us.
Well, it affects me as well. I want to buy a bigger flat but can't because the prices are insane, even by HK standards. 90% of the population have no hope of getting a mortgage with their incomes. That's how crazy it is.
I sympathise a lot on the housing issue, but it does take years to build the flats. There is no available land in HK anymore. Any new land must be reclaimed from the seas, or obtained from removing some mountains. You don't just build a building in the middle of nowhere. You also need roads, water supply, drainage, trains, buses, schools, and a lot of other supporting services. This is not something that can be solved overnight.
On top of that, the democrats block every attempt by the government to build more housing. They worry about the "environmental impact", the dolphins in the seas, the historic value of this and that, etc. And they are unhappy with the entire system in the first place. In HK, people don't live in small houses. They live in housing estates of several thousand flats each, with malls and shops and carparks inside them. It takes hundreds of millions in US$ to build one of those. Guess what? Only several huge real estate conglomerates have the capital to build them, and they are all owned by 3 or 4 of the richest families in HK. That means, like half the income of all HK workers all ultimately go to these families. These families are the people who pack the 1,200 member committee who picks our Chief Executive. Not only that, but these families are also behind tons of businesses in HK. Electricity companies, heating gas companies, malls, supermarkets, offices, they basically own everything.
The people hate this system.
QuoteHong Kong protests: Talks scheduled as crowds shrink and frustration rises
By Jethro Mullen and Andrew Stevens, CNN
October 8, 2014 -- Updated 0248 GMT (1048 HKT)
HK protests hurting small businesses
Student protest leaders and Hong Kong's chief secretary will meet Friday, official says
Anti-Occupy protesters and student demonstrators face off in the Admiralty area
Numbers have dwindled at pro-democracy protest sites around Hong Kong
"At first, I supported them, but then I started to think they are being selfish," one woman says
Hong Kong (CNN) -- After more than a week of stalemate, student leaders and the government have agreed to a framework for formal talks after protesters around the government headquarters gave civil servants better access to the building.
Talks are scheduled between the government and protest leaders at 4 p.m. local time Friday (4 a.m. Friday ET), and media coverage will be allowed. The government's number two official, Chief Secretary Carrie Lam, will be the principal negotiator from the government side.
Embattled Chief Executive C.Y. Leung released a video statement saying students should consider the inconveniences to the general public and insisted the students clear the vehicle entrances to the government complex. He also advised students to leave the protest site in Mong Kok.
The news of official talks comes as a dwindling number of pro-democracy demonstrators continue to cling on to their protest sites in key areas of the tightly packed city. As their numbers wane, so does patience of some of their fellow citizens.
"At first, I supported them, but then I started to think they are being selfish because they block the roads -- and that's wrong," said Virginia Lai, who has sold newspapers from a stall in the busy district of Mong Kok for 45 years.
Lai says her business is down 30% and getting worse. The student-led demonstrators are camped out at a major intersection in the neighborhood, which witnessed violent clashes between protesters and their opponents over the weekend.
A CNN team at the main protest point in the Admiralty area also witnessed friction Tuesday night as a handful of protesters wearing blue ribbons -- indicating an anti-Occupy stance -- were mobbed by hundreds of Occupy student protesters.
'We are fighting for our future'
The protesters have blocked several main highways in the city for more than a week as they seek to change a decision by China's ruling Communist Party on how the next election for Hong Kong's top leader will work.
At their peak, the demonstrations brought tens of thousands of Hong Kong residents together in spectacular fashion, covering large areas of the semiautonomous territory's central business district in a sea of people.
'Disrupting my life'
But that was last week, when two back-to-back public holidays put work and classes on hold for a lot of people.
As activity has cranked back up in the financial and commercial hub in recent days, crowds at the protest sites have thinned significantly and signs of discontent among other residents have spread.
"I am very angry because this movement is disrupting my life," said Polly Lau, an elderly woman who has lived in Mong Kok all her life. "I think there will be a rebellion actually, a rebellion of the other 7 million people in Hong Kong against them."
The protests have blocked bus and tram routes, worsening traffic and putting more strain on the city's rail network. Some businesses, offices and schools have closed temporarily.
In Tuesday's altercation in Admiralty, a known pro-Beijing activist, Lee See Yin, attempted to address crowds from street level through a megaphone and was surrounded by an angry crowd of hundreds of student protesters who began screaming to drown her out.
She insisted that she was also from Hong Kong and had a right to be heard, asking the crowds, "Is this real democracy?"
The altercation, which involved verbal assault but no apparent physical abuse, lasted 10 to 15 minutes.
Eventually, half a dozen police came over and formed a ring around the handful of anti-Occupy protesters, who then left the area escorted by the officers.
On Sunday, a group of about 30 taxi drivers carried out their own protest to express their frustration with the pro-democracy sit-ins, which they said were affecting their livelihoods, according to local broadcaster RTHK.
Who's powering the Hong Kong protests?
Hong Kong protestors hacked through app
But the protest movement also commands a lot of sympathy among residents of the city, especially after police used tear gas and pepper spray in a failed effort to disperse demonstrators on September 28 -- tactics seen by many as overly harsh.
Is it safe to travel to Hong Kong?
Is it 'deal time'?
Some commentators are arguing that now is a good moment for demonstrators to cash in their chips before they lose too much support.
"The longer this drags on, the more student activists risk looking to average Hongkongers like irritants," wrote William Pesek, an Asia-Pacific columnist for Bloomberg View, suggesting it's now "deal time for Hong Kong's students."
"Why not parlay what's been achieved so far into meaningful concessions from the government?" Pesek said.
His suggestion follows calls from some prominent figures, including the heads of local universities, for students to leave the protest sites for their own safety. Other observers have noted that the demonstrators have succeeded in putting the democracy issue back on the agenda.
But it remains uncertain what kind of deal the protesters might be able to reach with the government. One of the movement's demands has been the resignation of Hong Kong's top leader, Chief Executive C.Y. Leung.
Increasing fatigue
Some demonstrators have said they are running out of steam after enduring long days and nights camped out on the asphalt amid stifling heat and torrential downpours.
"I'm tired, but I think we have to stay a while longer," said Kristine Wu, a student who has been at the main protest site on Hong Kong Island for a week.
Are you there? Share images, if you can safely
'We really have to stand strong'
Other protesters among the depleted crowd still holding firm at the site Tuesday expressed similar determination to stay put until some kind of result was achieved.
"We really have to stand strong," said Luk Kam Yan, a student who had been protesting for eight days. "There's been a lot of rumors about clearing out, but I feel if we stay here, we still have a bit of bargaining power."
Student leaders have said they will continue the protest until they have productive talks with the government and expressed optimism that their supporters will stick with them.
"Many protesters need rest after nine days of occupation," Lester Shum, the deputy secretary general of the Hong Kong Federation of Students, said Monday. "I don't believe they are already giving up. When they have recovered, they will return."
But the government appears content to watch the demonstrators' numbers dwindle as negotiations drag on.
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 03:11:14 AM
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
You're the one who's morally corrupt :(
Seems like CY Leung has been taking some big payoffs:
QuoteBREAKING NEWS: Hong Kong leader CY Leung received secret payments of four million pounds (HK$50 million) from Australian business people with expansion plans in East Asia, it was revealed today.
He received the money in two batches, in 2012 and 2013, after he became Chief Executive. He did not declare the income in the register of interests in Hong Kong.
Wealthy businessman Richard Leupen, boss of Australian company UGL, asked Leung to sign a contract with details of the payments. But investigative journalists working for Fairfax Media, publisher of The Age newspaper, got hold of the contract.
In response, Mr Leung's office has just released a statement claiming that he was not legally required to reveal such payments in Hong Kong, and alleging that the payments were for matters dealing with the period before he became Chief Executive.
However, Australian journalists released the actual document—which clearly says that Leung agrees to "provide such assistance in the promotion of the UGL group and DTZ Group as UGL may reasonably require".
It describes the help as "including but not limited to acting as a referee and advisor from time to time". Leung added the words "providing that such assistance does not create any conflict of interest" and signed the document.
Also of concern is the nature of the deal that brought Leung and the Australian company together. The Aussies bought DTZ Holdings, a troubled property company: Leung was chairman of the property company's Asia-Pacific arm. Reporters said the secret deal left Mr Leung with a huge pay-off, "but left DTZ's other shareholders and unsecured creditors with nothing, wiping out investments and debts worth tens of millions of dollars", the Age reports.
The revelation is going to put pressure on Leung at a difficult time. He has just been accused by hundreds of thousands of his own citizens of giving a misleading report to Beijing over the desire of Hong Kong people to have democracy.
In my view, this is going to cause huge damage to Leung's prospects of surviving in his role. Even if his lawyers can argue that he did not have to reveal the payments, the issues of lack of transparency are going to taint him.
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/10630690_10152809531291214_7039068571002127129_o.jpg)
Another take on it here: http://www.smh.com.au/world/hong-kong-leader-leung-chunyings-hidden-dealings-will-not-endear-him-to-protesters-20141008-113a3q.html
... maybe he'll resign after all?
Aussiegate!
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 03:11:14 AM
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
Civil disobedience is morally corrupt?
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 01:54:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 03:11:14 AM
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
Civil disobedience is morally corrupt?
Depends on what it entails, I would think. Refusing to go into the tanks when Chairman Yang tells you to would not be. A black dude drinking from the white only water fountain would not be.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 08, 2014, 02:05:30 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 01:54:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 03:11:14 AM
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
Civil disobedience is morally corrupt?
Depends on what it entails, I would think. Refusing to go into the tanks when Chairman Yang tells you to would not be. A black dude drinking from the white only water fountain would not be.
What form of civil disobedience would be morally corrupt?
QuoteThe Hong Kong Leader's Daughter Bragged About Her Fabulous Taxpayer-Funded Life On Social Media
A Facebook account linked to Chai Yan Leung, the daughter of Hong Kong's leader, CY Leung, disappeared during the past 24 hours after a post about her "beautiful shoes and dresses and clutches" angered protesters who are calling for her father's ouster.
However, the Facebook page wasn't the only social media account linked to Leung that documented her high-fashion shopping sprees. An Instagram account in Leung's name remains online and features pictures of her custom-made bags, designer shoes, and trips around the world.
On Tuesday, Leung's Facebook page made news again after she wrote a note that was apparently a response to negative comments about a necklace that appeared in her profile photo.
"This is actually a beautiful necklace bought at Lane Crawford (yes- funded by all you HK taxpayers!! So are all my beautiful shoes and dresses and clutches!! Thank you so much!!!!) Actually maybe I shouldn't say 'all you'- since most of you here are probably unemployed hence have all this time obsessed with bombarding me with messages," the note said.
The note also included shots at Leung's critics for their intelligence and ability to speak English. View the full post below:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic5.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F542daf05ecad0432399a74ff-600-714%2Fscreenshots_2014-10-01_at_5.18.17_pm.jpg&hash=3b293a2b2ff68ada67847045e0f2d66cd7e514f3)
After the Facebook post made headlines, the page was removed. However, an Instagram account that linked to Leung's Facebook and contains many pictures that appear to show her remains active. It also includes photos that seem to show her bags, shoes, and other purchases.
Check out photos from the Instagram account below.
Leung, who was 22 as of earlier this year, apparently enjoys monogrammed purses.
Here's more of the tweets and posts:
http://www.businessinsider.com/daughter-of-hong-kong-leader-facebook-posts-2014-10
I really hope she and her family follow the footsteps of another stupid bitch who once told "protesters" to eat cake.
Marti - always a bit late to the party. :D
Quote from: garbon on October 08, 2014, 02:22:32 PM
Marti - always a bit late to the party. :D
Don't blame me. I take my news from the Daily Show which I watch with a 48 hours delay usually. :P
Explains quite a bit, actually.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 02:15:16 PM
What form of civil disobedience would be morally corrupt?
How would you define civil disobedience?
I think civil disobedience means not complying with a law or order you consider unjust.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 02:59:01 PM
I think civil disobedience means not complying with a law or order you consider unjust.
... while being prepared to accept consquences of such action.
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.
Yeah. It can be misguided but not morally corrupt. I don't think mono understands morality, though.
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.
Exactly.
Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2014, 03:21:33 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.
Yeah. It can be misguided but not morally corrupt. I don't think mono understands morality, though.
He understands mortality.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 03:24:06 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.
Exactly.
Well, playing Devil's Advocate here, what if the act of civil disobedience is based on an entirely corrupt "moral" stance? E.g. someone racist or homophobic breaking the law and accepting consequences of his actions out of a morally indefensible position?
Say, a doctor refusing to help a child born out of a racially mixed union because he believes such unions are wrong.
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.
I don't think the protesters' actions qualify as civil disobedience, since they are refusing to comply with laws which they presumably have no objection to otherwise. If they were granted the right to nominate candidates freely, would they be in favor of allowing anyone to camp out on public streets. Gandhi collected salt because he thought the Raj's salt monopoly unjust. Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus because she thought the bus seating laws were unjust.
That being said, whatever they are doing is not corrupt. Mono is not covering himself in glory with his application of value-laden terms.
Previously I called it selfish. I think arrogant works too.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 03:34:56 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.
I don't think the protesters' actions qualify as civil disobedience, since they are refusing to comply with laws which they presumably have no objection to otherwise. If they were granted the right to nominate candidates freely, would they be in favor of allowing anyone to camp out on public streets. Gandhi collected salt because he thought the Raj's salt monopoly unjust. Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus because she thought the bus seating laws were unjust.
That being said, whatever they are doing is not corrupt. Mono is not covering himself in glory with his application of value-laden terms.
Previously I called it selfish. I think arrogant works too.
I think Yi convinced me. I think the condition sine qua non of civil disobedience is that you should be breaking the law you disagree with/consider unjust - not breaking one law because you disagree with some other law or injustice. Otherwise, rioting, looting and murder could be considered civil disobedience as well.
Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2014, 03:32:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 03:24:06 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.
Exactly.
Well, playing Devil's Advocate here, what if the act of civil disobedience is based on an entirely corrupt "moral" stance? E.g. someone racist or homophobic breaking the law and accepting consequences of his actions out of a morally indefensible position?
Say, a doctor refusing to help a child born out of a racially mixed union because he believes such unions are wrong.
Often times civil disobedience is required because the majority doesnt agree with position of the protestors. If the underlying cause of the protest is in fact just and comes to be seen as just then the protest will succeed in the long run. I would like to think the doctor in your hypothetical would not garner any support but my condemnation of his position as being morally wrong doesnt make his position morally corrupt assuming he honestly holds that view.
Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2014, 03:40:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 03:34:56 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.
I don't think the protesters' actions qualify as civil disobedience, since they are refusing to comply with laws which they presumably have no objection to otherwise. If they were granted the right to nominate candidates freely, would they be in favor of allowing anyone to camp out on public streets. Gandhi collected salt because he thought the Raj's salt monopoly unjust. Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus because she thought the bus seating laws were unjust.
That being said, whatever they are doing is not corrupt. Mono is not covering himself in glory with his application of value-laden terms.
Previously I called it selfish. I think arrogant works too.
I think Yi convinced me. I think the condition sine qua non of civil disobedience is that you should be breaking the law you disagree with/consider unjust - not breaking one law because you disagree with some other law or injustice. Otherwise, rioting, looting and murder could be considered civil disobedience as well.
I think that is too narrow. Civil disobedience is a fairly well recognized legal concept. It certainly does not involve acts of violence. It can involve violation of a law that is not directly related to the law being protested. The acts of the HK protestors are a perfect example of civil disobedience. They are peacefully violating many laws in order to protest the lack of democracy.
If Yi's definition held then no one in HK could actually engage in civil disobedience because one cannot break a law which does not allow free elections.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 02:59:01 PM
I think civil disobedience means not complying with a law or order you consider unjust.
Thoreau's essay I think is the origin of the term. And he was advocating tax evasion as a protest to slavery (or whatever, the essay isn't a model of clarity). So as a matter of terminology I don't think it is right. I don't think there is any question that the actions of the HK demonstrators are consistent with Thoreau's concept.
The point isn't just semantic either, because there are some laws or political arrangements that may be very significant and unjust but cannot be resisted directly, indeed that is part of what makes them unjust. I imagine the HK protestors would say that in their view the very system of government that creates and enforces the law is inherently unjust, and thus the only avenue of CD available to them is to act in a way that demonstrates (as non-violently as possible) their rejection of the authority of that government.
Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2014, 02:24:03 PM
Don't blame me. I take my news from the Daily Show which I watch with a 48 hours delay usually. :P
I was watching John Oliver's weekly show and he was talking about how polite and clean the HK rioters were.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 08, 2014, 03:53:51 PM
Thoreau's essay I think is the origin of the term. And he was advocating tax evasion as a protest to slavery (or whatever, the essay isn't a model of clarity). So as a matter of terminology I don't think it is right. I don't think there is any question that the actions of the HK demonstrators are consistent with Thoreau's concept.
The point isn't just semantic either, because there are some laws or political arrangements that may be very significant and unjust but cannot be resisted directly, indeed that is part of what makes them unjust. I imagine the HK protestors would say that in their view the very system of government that creates and enforces the law is inherently unjust, and thus the only avenue of CD available to them is to act in a way that demonstrates (as non-violently as possible) their rejection of the authority of that government.
I think there is substantial doubt whether Thoreau's definition applies to the Hong Kong protesters. They are not limiting their actions to creating difficulties just for the government they consider unjust; they are also imposing hardships on innocent bystanders. Even the deeply, deeply retarded Occupy Wall Street protesters tried to specifically interfere with the actions of a group they considered engaged in a malicious activity.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 08, 2014, 03:53:51 PM
Thoreau's essay I think is the origin of the term. And he was advocating tax evasion as a protest to slavery (or whatever, the essay isn't a model of clarity). So as a matter of terminology I don't think it is right. I don't think there is any question that the actions of the HK demonstrators are consistent with Thoreau's concept.
The point isn't just semantic either, because there are some laws or political arrangements that may be very significant and unjust but cannot be resisted directly, indeed that is part of what makes them unjust. I imagine the HK protestors would say that in their view the very system of government that creates and enforces the law is inherently unjust, and thus the only avenue of CD available to them is to act in a way that demonstrates (as non-violently as possible) their rejection of the authority of that government.
I think there is substantial doubt whether Thoreau's definition applies to the Hong Kong protesters. They are not limiting their actions to creating difficulties just for the government they consider unjust; they are also imposing hardships on innocent bystanders. Even the deeply, deeply retarded Occupy Wall Street protesters tried to specifically interfere with the actions of a group they considered engaged in a malicious activity.
If the system itself is unjust the aim of civil disobedience is to put pressure on that system. I would be interested in knowing if scholar or court decision accepts your more narrow approach.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 04:26:18 PM
If the system itself is unjust the aim of civil disobedience is to put pressure on that system. I would be interested in knowing if scholar or court decision accepts your more narrow approach.
Civil wars and domestic terrorism put pressure on ostensibly unjust systems as well. I don't see how that's enough.
And how in the world would the meaning of civil disobedience end up in a court? By definition they're illegal acts.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 04:29:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 04:26:18 PM
If the system itself is unjust the aim of civil disobedience is to put pressure on that system. I would be interested in knowing if scholar or court decision accepts your more narrow approach.
Civil wars and domestic terrorism put pressure on ostensibly unjust systems as well. I don't see how that's enough.
And how in the world would the meaning of civil disobedience end up in a court? By definition they're illegal acts.
You are forgetting about the nonviolent part....
The meaning of civil disobedience ends up in a court's analysis because Charter rights are often engaged in political protests.
You are beginning to sound an awful lot like Mono ;)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 04:16:51 PM
They are not limiting their actions to creating difficulties just for the government they consider unjust; they are also imposing hardships on innocent bystanders.
Mass tax evasion would also impose hardships on others, not just the government.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 04:49:26 PM
You are beginning to sound an awful lot like Mono ;)
You're continuing to sound like Crazy Canuck.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 04:53:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 04:49:26 PM
You are beginning to sound an awful lot like Mono ;)
You're continuing to sound like Crazy Canuck.
Thank you. I take defending fundamental rights fairly seriously - despite what Berkut might assert.
If you want to engage in something other than your usual fare then you might want to educate yourself a bit on the topic. Try reading the Hughes Report regarding the police arrest of students who were peacefully protesting at the UBC campus during the APEC conference held there. Mr. Hughes provided one of the best summaries of the legal rights related to civil disobedience you will find.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 08, 2014, 04:50:51 PM
Mass tax evasion would also impose hardships on others, not just the government.
As a byproduct. The hardships imposed on Hong Kong residents are not a byproduct, they are the whole point.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 05:05:39 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 08, 2014, 04:50:51 PM
Mass tax evasion would also impose hardships on others, not just the government.
As a byproduct. The hardships imposed on Hong Kong residents are not a byproduct, they are the whole point.
No, the "whole point" is democratic reform. If the "whole point" was to bring traffic to a stop then you would have a valid argument.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 08, 2014, 03:53:51 PM
Thoreau's essay I think is the origin of the term. And he was advocating tax evasion as a protest to slavery (or whatever, the essay isn't a model of clarity).
It was actually taxes funding the Mexican War, a war which was not as popular at the time as people think.
Although Thoreau wasn't too big on slavery, either.
More infighting among the rioters. Quick summary:
HK Government: we will focus on the legal and constitutional basis of political reforms in our talks on Friday.
HK Federation of Students: BS. This is a political issue. Stop messing our heads with your petty legal speak.
HK Bar Association (normally the biggest supporter of free elections and the use of civil disobedience): We regret that certain parties see no need to observe the legal and constitutional principles underying political reform.
There is also a public argument between the Federation of Students and the Catholic Cardinal (again, normally one of the biggest proponents of free elections). The Cardinal is saying that the Federation is hurting the movement by refusing to leave the roads, thus drawing increasing criticism from the public for disruption. He flat out says that the Federation of Students has no right to represent the movement in talks with the government (the government will only talk to the Federation and nobody else). The Federation shot back at the Cardinal, of course.
The 3 guys who organised the occupy central movement starting from a year ago have now largely disappeared from public view. The media reports that they are now booed in the rioter camps.
I say the government should not clear them, even though the rioter numbers have dwindled to a point where a clearance operation should not be too difficult. Let them rot in Moscow, like Napoleon. Let public opinion turn against them. The longer they stay, the more the public feel that they are an irritation with no achievements to speak of. Let them be consumed by infighting. Meanwhile, Beijing has maintained its not a step back stance. It is important to take back the roads, but even more important to kill the idea of civil disobedience so that nobody in the next two generations will try it again.
Quote from: Jacob on October 08, 2014, 09:51:22 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 03:11:14 AM
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
You're the one who's morally corrupt :(
:lol: You'll get no argument from me on that point. I've never said that I am a knight in shining armour, and I don't consider myself as such. All I am saying is that no matter how long a list of legitimate grievances you have, it is morally wrong to occupy roads until your demands are met.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 01:54:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 03:11:14 AM
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
Civil disobedience is morally corrupt?
Yes. Always.
Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2014, 02:21:33 PM
QuoteThe Hong Kong Leader's Daughter Bragged About Her Fabulous Taxpayer-Funded Life On Social Media
A Facebook account linked to Chai Yan Leung, the daughter of Hong Kong's leader, CY Leung, disappeared during the past 24 hours after a post about her "beautiful shoes and dresses and clutches" angered protesters who are calling for her father's ouster.
However, the Facebook page wasn't the only social media account linked to Leung that documented her high-fashion shopping sprees. An Instagram account in Leung's name remains online and features pictures of her custom-made bags, designer shoes, and trips around the world.
On Tuesday, Leung's Facebook page made news again after she wrote a note that was apparently a response to negative comments about a necklace that appeared in her profile photo.
"This is actually a beautiful necklace bought at Lane Crawford (yes- funded by all you HK taxpayers!! So are all my beautiful shoes and dresses and clutches!! Thank you so much!!!!) Actually maybe I shouldn't say 'all you'- since most of you here are probably unemployed hence have all this time obsessed with bombarding me with messages," the note said.
The note also included shots at Leung's critics for their intelligence and ability to speak English. View the full post below:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic5.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F542daf05ecad0432399a74ff-600-714%2Fscreenshots_2014-10-01_at_5.18.17_pm.jpg&hash=3b293a2b2ff68ada67847045e0f2d66cd7e514f3)
After the Facebook post made headlines, the page was removed. However, an Instagram account that linked to Leung's Facebook and contains many pictures that appear to show her remains active. It also includes photos that seem to show her bags, shoes, and other purchases.
Check out photos from the Instagram account below.
Leung, who was 22 as of earlier this year, apparently enjoys monogrammed purses.
Here's more of the tweets and posts:
http://www.businessinsider.com/daughter-of-hong-kong-leader-facebook-posts-2014-10
I really hope she and her family follow the footsteps of another stupid bitch who once told "protesters" to eat cake.
I don't get why you guys make such a big deal out of this. It is reported in HK as well, but nobody takes it seriously. She is entitled to her opinion, and she is just a 22 year old citizen like many others. Her father has no control what his young daughter says on Facebook.
And Mono is precisely the reason why cultural relativism still gets so much traction in political science.
QuoteSupporters urge Occupy protesters to unite amid mixed messages over talks
09 Oct 2014
Pro-democracy groups were urged yesterday to form an alliance to better press their claims as a dispute threatened to derail talks with top officials scheduled for tomorrow.
Protesters also came under pressure from the Bar Association. The regulatory body for barristers, which last week said the police decision to used tear gas to clear the streets of Admiralty on September 28 was "excessive", warned protesters that civil disobedience did not constitute a defence to a criminal charge.
"Even on a sympathetic view of civil disobedience, it is essential for participants to respect the rights and freedoms of other people who do not necessarily agree with their views and not to cause excessive damage or inconvenience," it said in a statement.
Preparations for the dialogue between Chief Secretary Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor and student representatives appeared to take a step backwards as the two sides squabbled over the agenda.
Cardinal Joseph Zen Ze-kiun said the civil disobedience movement belonged to all Hong Kong people. Photo: Sam Tsang
The government said the Federation of Students' representatives agreed on Tuesday that constitutional development under the Basic Law would be on the agenda for the first round of talks.
But the federation's deputy secretary-general, Lester Shum, said the demand for the government to respond to Hongkongers' aspirations for democracy should be the "sole agenda".
A government source said there was only a slim chance of the meeting taking place tomorrow as "agenda and logistics ... had not been sorted out".
The source also said officials were worried that a call by student activist group Scholarism for an occupation of Admiralty tomorrow to support student representatives at the meeting would "effectively spur occupation activities".
The dispute came amid signs of the city returning to normal. Kindergartens in Wan Chai and Central and Western districts will resume classes today.
The protests have been marred by lack of leadership.
Apple Daily boss Jimmy Lai Chee-ying said key leaders of the protests were considering forming a single body to handle the rest of the campaign, which he said could "end the movement much faster and in a better way".
Writing on his blog yesterday, Cardinal Joseph Zen Ze-kiun said the civil disobedience movement belonged to all Hong Kong people and he disputed the idea that students should take the lead.
The religious leader wrote: "Whether protesters should withdraw should be decided by an authoritative and representative alliance. [This] alliance should be responsible for negotiating with the government."
The Federation of Students, an umbrella group of tertiary student unions, has been playing a leading role in the protests, while co-founders of the Occupy Central movement have taken a back seat since declaring the launch of the campaign on September 28.
It was reported earlier that Occupy Central leaders had suggested retreating from protest sites, but the idea was opposed by the federation.
In an effort to put up a united front, the two groups said in a joint statement yesterday that they had maintained close co-operation. "Without any practical results coming from the Occupy movement, we hope students and citizens will choose to stay. We understand the cardinal's kind reminder and thank him for his concern for the students' personal safety."
Hunger striker Benny Mok Siu-man urged the organisers to form a committee to set priorities. "[The organisers] are afraid of being criticised for dominating the campaign. But I think they have overreacted."
He said that a committee of representatives from different groups would help move the campaign forward.
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1612399/unite-break-impasse-protesters-urged
(may require registration. Not sure)
Quote
Hong Kong in crisis: Does former colonial ruler have any responsibility?
By Tim Summers, Special for CNN
October 8, 2014 -- Updated 0300 GMT (1100 HKT)
Editor's note: Tim Summers is a senior consulting fellow on the Asia program at Chatham House. He lives in Hong Kong and teaches at the Centre for China Studies at The Chinese University of Hong Kong (CUHK). He is the author of a recent Chatham House paper, China's Global Personality. The views expressed here are solely those of the author.
London (CNN) -- The world has been watching events unfold in Hong Kong in recent weeks, after tens of thousands of pro-democracy protesters took to the streets to occupy key locations in the heart of this financial hub.
Much of the international reaction has been supportive of the protesters' aims. Foreign governments, meanwhile, have been working out what to say publicly.
They should comment. Hong Kong is a global city, whose political development has wider implications, not least for international economic and commercial interests in Asia and beyond.
But comments by some politicians and media commentators in recent weeks demonstrated a worrying lack of understanding of the relevant historical agreements and Hong Kong's status as a Chinese territory -- albeit with significant autonomy. This is unhelpful to the rebuilding of trust that is needed if any progress is to be made in Hong Kong.
For the UK, as the former colonial power until it handed control to China in 1997, the diplomatic challenges presented by the protests are that much sharper. The shadow of the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration hangs over policy makers -- this is the agreement under which Hong Kong maintains its own system as part of China, a "one country, two systems" concept fleshed out in the Chinese Basic Law of 1990, Hong Kong's mini constitution.
The protests were fueled by dissatisfaction with the Hong Kong government, but the catalyst was the August 31 decision of China's national legislature -- the National People's Congress Standing Committee -- on Hong Kong's constitutional development.
'We are fighting for our future'
The key issue of contention is not whether Hong Kong people should have a say in the choice of their next chief executive (head of government) in 2017 -- Beijing has already agreed to allow a popular vote. The controversy is over how candidates should be nominated.
READ: Protests shrinking, frustration rising
The central authorities see a role for themselves as being in line with the Basic Law, one of the few manifestations of "one country" when it comes to a political structure which is otherwise formed locally in Hong Kong. As a result, the August 31 decision provides for a 1,200-strong nominating committee, half of whose members must approve candidates to appear on the subsequent popular ballot. The committee's constitution means that it is a broadly pro-establishment body, and this is where Beijing (and Hong Kong's elites) can effectively screen out candidates.
Divided city
Views in Hong Kong are divided. But a sizable proportion of people want more, effectively demanding greater autonomy by rejecting any way for Beijing to influence nominations, or by seeking to dilute the nominating committee's role. These aspirations are understandable given the nature of Hong Kong society and a desire for better governance.
READ: Who's who in the Hong Kong protests?
The problem is that they are not easily attainable within the framework of the Basic Law. Without compromise, Hong Kong could be facing something of a constitutional crisis.
How does this debate match up to those historical agreements?
Contrary to what some are saying, the proposals on the table do not contravene what was agreed between China and the UK. All the Joint Declaration said is that the chief executive will be "appointed by the central people's government on the basis of the results of elections or consultations to be held locally [in Hong Kong]." Britain's role as co-signatory of that agreement gives it no legal basis for complaint on this particular point, and the lack of democracy for the executive branch before 1997 leaves it little moral high ground either.
It is the Basic Law that introduces "the ultimate aim [of] the selection of the chief executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures." This is the basis for what is on offer from Beijing today. China didn't promise anything different.
READ: Hong Kong's 'unloved' leader
Comment by politicians and the media should not distort these historical agreements, which are the foundation for Hong Kong's status as a sub-national region with a high degree of autonomy, not a country or sovereign territory.
Post-colonial guilt
Perhaps part of the issue for some in the UK is an underlying feeling of post-colonial guilt, the idea that the British government didn't put proper protection in place for the people of Hong Kong.
But as the demonstrations have once again showed, Hong Kong people are quite capable of standing up for themselves. The idea -- which some in Hong Kong encourage -- that the UK is somehow still responsible for their wellbeing sounds outdated.
Furthermore, we should not forget the substantial achievements in the UK's negotiations with China over the future of Hong Kong. To engineer a smooth transition of sovereignty in 1997, followed by the maintenance of Hong Kong's legal, judicial, financial, social and economic systems, was no small achievement. It has provided the basis for a vibrant and passionate society in Hong Kong. Implementation was never going to be easy, but "one country two systems" remains the best option by far.
Those outside Hong Kong have a legitimate right to comment. But they also have a responsibility to base those comments on accurate and historically-informed analysis of the complex and emotive issues currently disputed in Hong Kong.
Small businesses have filed civil suits against the rioters for damages. I don't think they'll succeed in getting much, if any, in damages. But the point is, if enough small businesses file claims, they'll be flooded with a sea of legal documents and it is tiring to just respond to them all. If each and every member in the Chambers of Commerce file suits, just the legal costs of defending themselves can be great. The businesses can afford to hire lawyers; the rioters and students can't.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 08:58:45 PM
Small businesses have filed civil suits against the rioters for damages. I don't think they'll succeed in getting much, if any, in damages. But the point is, if enough small businesses file claims, they'll be flooded with a sea of legal documents and it is tiring to just respond to them all. If each and every member in the Chambers of Commerce file suits, just the legal costs of defending themselves can be great. The businesses can afford to hire lawyers; the rioters and students can't.
I'm suddenly fill with hope for Hong Kong. Abusing the frictional costs of the legal system to kick the little guy is the American way. :punk:
The land of the free and home of the brave :cry:
Quote from: DGuller on October 08, 2014, 09:21:56 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 08:58:45 PM
Small businesses have filed civil suits against the rioters for damages. I don't think they'll succeed in getting much, if any, in damages. But the point is, if enough small businesses file claims, they'll be flooded with a sea of legal documents and it is tiring to just respond to them all. If each and every member in the Chambers of Commerce file suits, just the legal costs of defending themselves can be great. The businesses can afford to hire lawyers; the rioters and students can't.
I'm suddenly fill with hope for Hong Kong. Abusing the frictional costs of the legal system to kick the little guy is the American way. :punk:
Who is the little guy here, and who is the bully? The people who block roads are the bullies, and the little guys are the helpless businesses who face hardship :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 10:49:09 PM
Who is the little guy here, and who is the bully? The people who block roads are the bullies, and the little guys are the helpless businesses who face hardship :contract:
Question: if the protestors had a chance of success would you feel differently about their efforts? I guess for some reason I thought you were making the very reasonable point that they were causing all these problems and achieving counter-productive results even if they basically had good aims.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 10:49:09 PM
Who is the little guy here, and who is the bully? The people who block roads are the bullies, and the little guys are the helpless businesses who face hardship :contract:
:jaron: Mono, your schtick doesn't carry over well in serious threads.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 10:49:09 PM
Who is the little guy here, and who is the bully? The people who block roads are the bullies, and the little guys are the helpless businesses who face hardship :contract:
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Valmy on October 08, 2014, 10:53:18 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 10:49:09 PM
Who is the little guy here, and who is the bully? The people who block roads are the bullies, and the little guys are the helpless businesses who face hardship :contract:
Question: if the protestors had a chance of success would you feel differently about their efforts? I guess for some reason I thought you were making the very reasonable point that they were causing all these problems and achieving counter-productive results even if they basically had good aims.
I am adamently against blocking roads as a matter of principle.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 10:49:09 PM
Who is the little guy here, and who is the bully? The people who block roads are the bullies, and the little guys are the helpless businesses who face hardship :contract:
He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 10:58:37 PM
I am adamently against blocking roads as a matter of principle.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fadamfcornford.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F09%2Fbarricades-1848.jpg%3Fw%3D300&hash=47efa87aafc2bb28e8f74ca6ad561b5b80268382)
Man you are really attacking my most sacred beliefs and heroes here Mono :(
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 04:59:55 PM
Thank you. I take defending fundamental rights fairly seriously - despite what Berkut might assert.
Berkut never accused you of being opposed to rights - only liberties. These are similar but different concepts.
There are calls among Mainlanders to "Occupy Tian An Men" this weekend. They also forecast rainfall, so organisers have advised people to bring umbrellas :ph34r:
I think we are running out of time.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 01:10:52 AM
There are calls among Mainlanders to "Occupy Tian An Men" this weekend. They also forecast rainfall, so organisers have advised people to bring umbrellas :ph34r:
I think we are running out of time.
Who is "we"?
Quote from: Martinus on October 09, 2014, 01:12:42 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 01:10:52 AM
There are calls among Mainlanders to "Occupy Tian An Men" this weekend. They also forecast rainfall, so organisers have advised people to bring umbrellas :ph34r:
I think we are running out of time.
Who is "we"?
Hong Kong. We are running out of time to wait and whittle this down. We maybe forced to take action to clear the camps to avoid spreading the movement to the mainland.
The Government and the Federation of Students are supposed to meet tomorrow for the first time. The government has now called off the talks, and has basically said that as long as they occupy the roads, there'll be no talks.
I think the writing is on the wall. The last political exit is now firmly shut. It is politically difficult to clear the camps as long as the talks are going on (the Federation specifically said that the talks must be multi-round). Now that the talks are called off, the only ways to break the stalemate are (a) police/military action or (b) the rioters go home voluntarily.
This is the biggest challenge for the communists since Tian An Men. They will not hold back.
Quote from: Martinus on October 09, 2014, 12:53:41 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 04:59:55 PM
Thank you. I take defending fundamental rights fairly seriously - despite what Berkut might assert.
Berkut never accused you of being opposed to rights - only liberties. These are similar but different concepts.
That is an interesting quibble.
In Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms many "rights" are expressed as fundamental freedoms. For example:
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
I am not sure what meaningful distinction there is between freedom and liberty in this context.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 08:38:20 AM
The Government and the Federation of Students are supposed to meet tomorrow for the first time. The government has now called off the talks, and has basically said that as long as they occupy the roads, there'll be no talks.
I think the writing is on the wall. The last political exit is now firmly shut. It is politically difficult to clear the camps as long as the talks are going on (the Federation specifically said that the talks must be multi-round). Now that the talks are called off, the only ways to break the stalemate are (a) police/military action or (b) the rioters go home voluntarily.
This is the biggest challenge for the communists since Tian An Men. They will not hold back.
I'm always shocked by how fragile authoritarian regimes are. Do a few protesters in a single city really threaten the whole communist government?
Quote from: frunk on October 09, 2014, 10:14:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 08:38:20 AM
The Government and the Federation of Students are supposed to meet tomorrow for the first time. The government has now called off the talks, and has basically said that as long as they occupy the roads, there'll be no talks.
I think the writing is on the wall. The last political exit is now firmly shut. It is politically difficult to clear the camps as long as the talks are going on (the Federation specifically said that the talks must be multi-round). Now that the talks are called off, the only ways to break the stalemate are (a) police/military action or (b) the rioters go home voluntarily.
This is the biggest challenge for the communists since Tian An Men. They will not hold back.
I'm always shocked by how fragile authoritarian regimes are. Do a few protesters in a single city really threaten the whole communist government?
Yes, they do. A few hundred protesters may inspire a few thousand, and they in turn will inspire more, and so on. 1989 almost ended the Party.
Guess you really dodged a bullet there.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 09, 2014, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 09, 2014, 12:53:41 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 04:59:55 PM
Thank you. I take defending fundamental rights fairly seriously - despite what Berkut might assert.
Berkut never accused you of being opposed to rights - only liberties. These are similar but different concepts.
That is an interesting quibble.
In Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms many "rights" are expressed as fundamental freedoms. For example:
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
I am not sure what meaningful distinction there is between freedom and liberty in this context.
I did not say there is a distinction between freedom and liberty but between a right and liberty.
To me rights are positive and liberties are negative. I would further define a right as something that is almost always exercised in the public sphere and something that correlates with a positive obligation of the state or another person to do something.
Conversely, a liberty is usually (but not always - e.g. freedom of speech, religion or assembly) exercised in a private sphere and is not correlated with any obligation of another person (except, perhaps an obligation to "tolerate") - essentially a liberty means noone has a right to stop you from doing something.
In the context of gay "rights", gay marriage would be a right - as it is exercised in a public sphere and creates an obligation of the state to recognise the married couple as legal spouses, with all legal consequences etc.; similarly anti-discrimination at work place legislation would create a right of an employee as it creates a positive obligation of your employer not to discriminate against you.
On the other hand, an ability to have sex with a partner of the same gender would be a liberty - i.e. it is exercised in the private sphere and simply means neither the state nor another person can stop you and your partner from doing so - but there is no correlating obligation of another person or the state to do something about it.
It is also frequently posited that while the ideological left is more concerned with rights, the ideological (libertarian) right is more concerned with liberties. There was even an interesting article in the Economist on that recently.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 10:32:14 AM
Yes, they do. A few hundred protesters may inspire a few thousand, and they in turn will inspire more, and so on. 1989 almost ended the Party.
Devil's advocate: if the environment's that toxic, why is the health of the CCP so important to you, knowing that pretty much every government has a need for functionaries to file the paperwork?
Quote from: Martinus on October 09, 2014, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 09, 2014, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 09, 2014, 12:53:41 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 04:59:55 PM
Thank you. I take defending fundamental rights fairly seriously - despite what Berkut might assert.
Berkut never accused you of being opposed to rights - only liberties. These are similar but different concepts.
That is an interesting quibble.
In Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms many "rights" are expressed as fundamental freedoms. For example:
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
I am not sure what meaningful distinction there is between freedom and liberty in this context.
I did not say there is a distinction between freedom and liberty but between a right and liberty.
re-read my post. Rights can be and are expressed as freedoms. If you agree there is no distinction between freedom and liberty then your quibble disappears.
QuoteTo me rights are positive and liberties are negative.
I am not sure there is a lot of support for that restricted view of rights and liberties.
For example, what is the meaningful difference between saying a person has a "right" to free speech and the freedom of expression?
QuoteIn the context of gay "rights", gay marriage would be a right - as it is exercised in a public sphere and creates an obligation of the state to recognise the married couple as legal spouses, with all legal consequences etc.; similarly a right to not be discriminated at a work place would be a right as it creates a positive obligation of your employer not to discriminate.
There is also a freedom (liberty) from discrimination.
QuoteOn the other hand, an ability to have sex with a partner of the same gender would be a liberty - i.e. it is exercised in the private sphere and simply means neither the state nor another person can stop you and your partner from doing so - but there is no correlating obligation of another person or the state to do something about it.
partners are also exercising their right to freedom of association etc etc etc. There is certainly a correlated obligation for people not to discriminate against gay people. ie the reason they can have sex without sanction is because they have the right to do so.
QuoteIt is also frequently posited that while the ideological left is more concerned with rights, the ideological (libertarian) right is more concerned with liberties. There was even an interesting article in the Economist on that recently.
But liberty isnt the absence of rights. A good argument can be made to the contrary and, as noted above, our Charter expressly provides that freedoms are rights.
I find it funny that despite authoritarian regimes supposedly being good at keeping order, they are constantly being threatened by small groups of peaceful protesters.
Quote from: frunk on October 09, 2014, 12:02:21 PM
I find it funny that despite authoritarian regimes supposedly being good at keeping order, they are constantly being threatened by small groups of peaceful protesters.
/mono/ you mean violent rioters /mono/
Quote from: frunk on October 09, 2014, 10:14:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 08:38:20 AM
The Government and the Federation of Students are supposed to meet tomorrow for the first time. The government has now called off the talks, and has basically said that as long as they occupy the roads, there'll be no talks.
I think the writing is on the wall. The last political exit is now firmly shut. It is politically difficult to clear the camps as long as the talks are going on (the Federation specifically said that the talks must be multi-round). Now that the talks are called off, the only ways to break the stalemate are (a) police/military action or (b) the rioters go home voluntarily.
This is the biggest challenge for the communists since Tian An Men. They will not hold back.
I'm always shocked by how fragile authoritarian regimes are. Do a few protesters in a single city really threaten the whole communist government?
Authoritarian regimes lives by the laws of the jungle. When it comes to weakness, perception is reality. When that perception of weakness is coupled with general dissatisfaction, fearsome tyrants can fall overnight.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 09, 2014, 11:19:38 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 10:32:14 AM
Yes, they do. A few hundred protesters may inspire a few thousand, and they in turn will inspire more, and so on. 1989 almost ended the Party.
Devil's advocate: if the environment's that toxic, why is the health of the CCP so important to you, knowing that pretty much every government has a need for functionaries to file the paperwork?
I don't really understand the question :unsure:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 03:54:07 PM
I don't really understand the question :unsure:
Why should you care who is in charge, you'll have a job either way.
Quote from: frunk on October 09, 2014, 07:46:14 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 03:54:07 PM
I don't really understand the question :unsure:
Why should you care who is in charge, you'll have a job either way.
Huh? :blink:
I still don't understand. This isn't about "who is in charge". This is about the one of the most basic social orders, that roads should be open to the public.
Quote from: frunk on October 09, 2014, 07:46:14 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 03:54:07 PM
I don't really understand the question :unsure:
Why should you care who is in charge, you'll have a job either way.
Mono can only interface with world at large through strict hierarchical systems in support of the status quo and his ideas of "efficiency". It's how he approaches everything from politics, to the World Cup, to how he organizes he sock drawer; and everything in between.
A change in government systems would be a serious knock to Mono's world view, and disastrous for is ability to make sense of the world around him.
It's not that any particular qualities of the current government system are inherently valuable (other than stability), it's that Mono has a handle on how to deal with it, but not with anything that may follow; and that is profoundly frightening to someone who has such difficulties relating to other human beings and basic social behaviour.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 07:50:49 PM
Huh? :blink:
I still don't understand. This isn't about "who is in charge". This is about the one of the most basic social orders, that roads should be open to the public.
So the protesters took to the streets because they really didn't like those particular roads?
Y'all are being purposely obtuse. When Mono says "it's all about X" he's explaining his position. He is not enamored of the folks currently in charge and is not rooting for them to stay in office. His objection is to the protesters closing the road. He wants it reopened.
Makes sense. Any time anyone uses disruptive tactics, they will inevitably make enemies among those they disrupt. Mono is one of those.
Quote from: frunk on October 09, 2014, 07:59:46 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 07:50:49 PM
Huh? :blink:
I still don't understand. This isn't about "who is in charge". This is about the one of the most basic social orders, that roads should be open to the public.
So the protesters took to the streets because they really didn't like those particular roads?
I am the one who knows about their greivances here and I have posted extensively about what those are. So I at least know what their main problems are. As I have said many times before, I will have a lot fewer problems with them if they do it in a park. I think that should be clear by now :)
I think unless the rioters are willing to make concessions (e.g. leave some roads), it is unlikely that talks will reopen. That in itself is unlikely, as they are very defiant (and in any case don't have much control over the crowd in the first place).
Then it is a question of when and how to clear the camps. Today is a Friday here, and morale among the rioters is high given the government's announcement to cancel the talks yesterday. Weekend is also unlikely as the number of rioters will likely rebound. I think the government is waiting for an opportunity some time next week, most likely in the early hours when there are the least no. of people, and the nearby districts are empty (thus few people will come to support the riots when the operation begins). If the numbers remain high next week, then they will wait a week more for the numbers to further dwindle.
The how. I think there are two mains strategies here. One is to surround them, pick them up one-by-one, and arrest everybody. They used this tactic once in July when there were 500 occupiers. The problem is there are a lot more people now, and it takes a long time - long enough for others to come and join. The second is to disperse them with tear gas. They tried this 2 weeks ago, and it was a failure. The crowd only dispersed for a while, and they came back soon, with more people joining them. I think the police mistake was in only firing tear gas at the crowd, and not following up with a charge with batons in hand.
I think first and foremost, they need to prevent reinforcements from arriving. They need to close all the nearby train stations first, perhaps the entire HK Island line. Do it in the early hours instead of an afternoon. First make an announcement for people to leave, with an ultimatum of say 5 minutes. Then fire an intensive round of tear gas, and follow that up with hundreds of policemen charging in waving batons. Arrest the most defiant rioters, the leaders and those who come back.
Food and Environmental Hygiene contractors should be on site and they should enter immediately to clear all the roadblocks, posters and supplies. Then the road should be reopened to traffic ASAP to prevent people from coming back. Heavy police presence to detain anybody who tries to retake the roads. Rioters will probably block the roads again with cars. It is important to tow them away immediately.
Quote9 October 2014 Last updated at 14:35
Hong Kong government calls off student talks
Mass demonstrations have largely subsided in recent days in Hong Kong
Hong Kong's government has called off a meeting on Friday with student leaders of the pro-democracy movement.
Chief Secretary Carrie Lam said it would be "impossible to have a constructive dialogue" after protest leaders called for an increase in efforts to occupy main protest areas.
The protesters want a fully free vote in elections due to be held in 2017 for the post of chief executive.
Last week thousands of demonstrators paralysed parts of the city.
But mass demonstrations have largely subsided in recent days, although the barricades remain in place.
What happens next will largely depend on whether people do indeed rally once again to the cause, prolonging the political crisis, or whether the movement continues to dwindle of its own accord, the BBC's John Sudworth in Hong Kong reports.
'Cleaning up mess'
Hours before Ms Lam's announcement student leaders had asked for an escalation of those activities if concessions were not made by the government.
"The dialogue cannot be deployed as an excuse to incite more people to join the protest," she said. "The illegal occupation activists must stop."
Pro-democracy leaders later urged the authorities to return to the negotiating table.
"The chaos was caused by the government. They are responsible for cleaning up the mess," Alex Chow, the president of the Hong Kong Federation of Students (HKFS), was quoted as saying by the AFP news agency.
Meanwhile, pro-democracy MPs in the former British colony threw their weight behind the protests by pledging to block key legislation.
Protesters occupied key parts of the Asian financial hub last week, after riot police used tear gas in a failed attempt to disperse the crowds.
Under Hong Kong's current system, the chief executive is elected by a 1,200-person committee that consists primarily of pro-Beijing groups.
In August, Beijing said it would allow a public vote in the 2017 elections. However, China wants all candidates to be approved by a similar committee - effectively giving it the ability to screen out candidates.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29554755
I like the no talks with blackmailers stance.
There is also the matter of what to do about the election proposal already on the table. As it requires a 2/3 supermajority to pass in LegCo, the chance of it passing is zero. I cannot imagine any pro-democrat legislator changing sides and voting for it (happened once), even though only 4 are needed.
But I think the government will still go through the motion and ask for a vote, knowing it will fail. The main reason is historical responsibility. If the democrats vote it down, Beijing/HK government can say "oh we offered you universal suffrage. You voted it down. That means you don't want it. So there is no point for us to talk about it any more, right? Don't complain in the future anymore. kthxbye :smoke:" If the government withdraws the proposal, then Beijing still "owes them" universal suffrage. Just like a parent who wants to take a child to a vacation in a city park. If the child goes along, the parent no longer owes him anything. If the child refuses to go, the parent no longer owes the child a vacation.
Quote from: frunk on October 09, 2014, 10:14:51 AM
I'm always shocked by how fragile authoritarian regimes are. Do a few protesters in a single city really threaten the whole communist government?
Why are you surprised? It's always the most centralized thing that's the most fragile. That's risk management 101 these days. Efficiency is the enemy of stability and all that.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 09:30:14 PM
Just like a parent who wants to take a child to a vacation in a city park. If the child goes along, the parent no longer owes him anything. If the child refuses to go, the parent no longer owes the child a vacation.
Why does a parent who wants to take a child to a park in a circumstance of owing something?
Quote from: Valmy on October 09, 2014, 11:38:36 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 09, 2014, 09:30:14 PM
Just like a parent who wants to take a child to a vacation in a city park. If the child goes along, the parent no longer owes him anything. If the child refuses to go, the parent no longer owes the child a vacation.
Why does a parent who wants to take a child to a park in a circumstance of owing something?
It is a metaphor that I used several pages back.
A father has promised a child that he will get his vacation if he behaves. Of course, the father doesn't really want to pay for the vacation. To get around the problem, he fulfills the letter of his promise - instead of taking the child to another country or somewhere nice, he defines "vacation" liberally, and takes the child to the city park instead. It is crappy, and isn't something that the child really wants. The child accuses the father of breaking the promise, but since "vacation" isn't clearly defined in the first place, it is impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the father really broke his promise.
Anyway, the child is now faced with two choices. Accept the "vacation" offer and go to the city park. In this case the child at least gets something. But the fear is that, once the father has fulfilled the "vacation" promise, a real vacation will never come. So the child wants to refuse. But in that case, he'll stay home and he won't even get the chance to go to the city park. In this case however, since the father has not fulfilled the vacation promise, the father still owes the child one. The child hates both choices, so he now wants to create a third option for himself - barricade the front door of the house, and prevents anybody from getting in or out until he gets a real vacation.
That's essentially the situation we have right now.
From the rioters:
- they will expand the occupation zones unless government agrees to talks;
- they encourage rioters to live in tents as a long-term plan; and
- they will consider blockading the government HQs again if the talks don't materialise.
I think this is essentially saying, either talk to us or come clear us and make us martyrs. It is a sign that they are getting desperate, as their numbers are not sustainable and public opinion is turning.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F10347535_710052105742600_7310667957236404451_n_zps63bca5aa.jpg&hash=df83501300dee9d1e79c7a586a118186bb77dd1e) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/10347535_710052105742600_7310667957236404451_n_zps63bca5aa.jpg.html)
Cartoon on why people fight. Translation:
1. The server of my online game is Hong Kong and I have no choice [Screen says Fate Online]
2. The main quest is insanely difficult and you can't go to mission 2 if you haven't completed mission 1 [Mission 1: Find a home. Mission 2: Get married. Mission 3: Raise kids]
3. Previous generation players are all rich as hell. They buy up the best equipment; new players can't gain any levels. The wealth gap here is the worst among all servers
4. Lots of new players from outside [Mainland], creating lag for our server, and they buy up everything. The admins don't care.
5. Worst of all, the NPC boss is invincible [Screen says real estate tycoon hegemony]
6. There is a DLC that can fix all these bugs [box cover says universal suffrage]. Not sure if this is real?
Still better than Dinosaur comics
Or Boondocks.
Quote from: Martinus on October 09, 2014, 11:15:08 AM
To me rights are positive and liberties are negative. I would further define a right as something that is almost always exercised in the public sphere and something that correlates with a positive obligation of the state or another person to do something.
Rights and liberties are correlative. I think this is one of these common law/civil law worldview things.
A "right" to gay marriage just means that the state is not given the power to block such a marriage and that if the state elects to recognize marriages through its positive law it is deprived of the ability to exercise that power in a discriminatory way. The "right" consists of a negative constraint on state action, the corollary of which is that the citizen can engage in positive action without fear of restraint or reprisal.
Any right can be described as a liberty or any liberty as a right by just flipping it around on its head.
I had to suffer that thought so I thought I should share. :hug:
-More and more groups are giving government deadlines to clear the camps, or they will do it themselves. This includes the logistics associations and drivers' guilds.
-the latest internet sensation here is, surprisingly, a police chief superintendent. He holds daily press briefings on how the riots have negatively affected traffic and business, but has captured the hearts of tens of thousands of fans with his funny face, verbal tics, tendency to repeat himself and Chinglish (all government press briefings are in both Chinese and English). He also holds his briefings at 4:00pm, a timeslot that is usually reserved for children's TV programmes. Fans are saying his briefings are much more interesting than the boring old school children's programmes.
http://news.sina.com.hk/news/20141009/-2-3401859/1.html
(pic of the police officer, with the background changed to that of a children's programme)
https://www.facebook.com/HUIsir4pm
(fans have opened a facebook page for him, and he already has over 30,000 likes).
He missed yesterday's press briefing, and I already see the rioter camps putting up signs that they miss him.
- the media has reported waves of unfriendings in HK as people are divided over the riots.
- the Chinese premier is now visiting Germany, and he is the most senior figure to have spoken on events. He basically recited the usual official-speak, so there is nothing new there. What makes matter worse is that the German president (never heard that they have one) compares the riots to the events in 89 that toppled the East German government. That ought to give the wrong impression to the Chinese premier that we really have rebels in our city that aim to topple the communist party. :ph34r:
QuoteHong Kong protest: Thousands on streets for fresh rally
The BBC's Juliana Liu: Activists hope new show of strength will... sustain the movement
Thousands of people are demonstrating in Hong Kong's financial district after protest leaders called for a show of strength.
It comes after the territory's deputy leader called off talks with student leaders scheduled for Friday.
Carrie Lam said the students' refusal to end their protest had made "constructive dialogue" impossible.
The protesters, demanding full democratic elections in 2017, paralysed parts of Hong Kong in recent weeks.
Throughout the week only a few hundred protesters, mostly students, remained on the streets around the financial and government district of Admiralty and in Mong Kok north of the harbour.
But after the talks were cancelled, leaders of the student movement called on supporters to return to the streets.
"Come to occupy the road outside the public headquarters, come bring your tents to show our persistence on long term occupy action," said Joshua Wong, the 17-year-old founder of the Scholarism movement.
Hong Kong Chief Secretary Carrie Lam said that the basis for constructive dialogue had been "undermined"
The BBC's Juliana Liu in Hong Kong says the activists are hoping a new show of strength will be enough to sustain the movement.
"We are now planning on further action for escalating [the campaign] if the government keeps denying the meeting," said Alex Chow, secretary general of the Hong Kong Federation of Students (HKFS).
Analysis: John Sudworth in Hong Kong
Once again the protest was entirely peaceful and good-natured, with speeches, applause and a bit of singing. But this was a rally on a Friday night in response to a call for a show of strength - oughtn't it to be ginormous, rather than just big?
Some estimates put the number at 10,000 or more but that's still a long way short of the scale of the protests at their peak. Hardly resounding proof of city-wide support for the pro-democracy fight and disruption it's causing.
But, if nothing else, neither is it small enough in scale to give the Hong Kong government what it so badly wants. This is not yet a movement that has run out of steam. The stalemate continues.
Students check their laptops and smartphones during a rally of pro-democracy demonstrators in Hong Kong - 10 October 2014 The student protesters remain resolute in their calls for the right to free and fair elections in Hong Kong
People are seen on an escalator as pro-democracy demonstrators gather for a rally in Hong Kong - 10 October 2014 The streets around the financial and government district of Admiralty have been a focus of the protests
Woman passes barricades in Admiralty, Hong Kong (10 Oct 2014) The protests have caused major disruption but most people are able to get to work despite the shutdown
The protesters want to be able to directly elect Hong Kong's leader, the chief executive, in the 2017 election.
China has said that, under Hong Kong law, voters will be able to vote freely but from a list approved by a nominating committee.
Ms Lam has accused the students of "undermining trust" in the proposed talks by repeatedly calling people out to protest.
"The dialogue cannot be deployed as an excuse to incite more people to join the protest," she said. "The illegal occupation activists must stop."
Democracy 'a right'
In a separate development on Friday, Taiwan's President Ma Ying-jeou used his National Day speech to urge Beijing to move towards democracy, voicing support for Hong Kong's protesters.
Mr Ma said that as China became more prosperous, its people would want more democracy and the rule of law.
"Such a desire has never been a monopoly of the West, but it is the right of all humankind," he said.
Taiwan - which Beijing views as a breakaway province but which has been governed separately since 1949 - has been watching developments in Hong Kong closely.
- some businesses are beginning to withdraw scholarships for university students as a protest against the riots
- for the first time, the People's Daily has begun to describe the occupation as "unrest", an upgrade from the previous description of "illegal activity". The choice of wording is important, because the exact same Chinese word was used to describe the students in Tian An Men before military action took place.
- HK government officials repeated in front of camera that the rioters must accept the National People's Congress decision regarding HK's election rules before any talks will take place (that's another way of saying that they must surrender before any talks will take place).
- Beijing once again repeated, this time in more colourful language, that the National People's Congress decision will not be amended in any shape or form. Anybody who thinks there is any chance of that happening "must come from the moon". I think it is blatently obvious that they will send in the PLA before they'll back down on political reform.
- latest count is that there are several hundred tents and about two thousand people in the rioter main camp in Admiralty. The count took place during a weekend.
- anti-rioter groups have called for mass action to clear the camps tomorrow.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "rioter", Mono?
Quote from: Martinus on October 11, 2014, 04:33:03 PM
Do you understand the meaning of the word "rioter", Mono?
I thought we are well past that point in the discussion :P
Quote from: Martinus on October 11, 2014, 04:33:03 PM
Do you understand the meaning of the word "rioter", Mono?
The more appropriate question is "Do you have the desire to understand the meaning of the word 'rioter', Mono?"
I wouldn't listen to you people either.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 11, 2014, 06:53:10 PM
I wouldn't listen to you people either.
Did someone just speak? :unsure:
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 11, 2014, 06:53:10 PM
I wouldn't listen to you people either.
Kids rarely listen
Quote from: Martinus on October 11, 2014, 04:33:03 PM
Do you understand the meaning of the word "rioter", Mono?
He's demonstrated understanding of the term, it's his definition of "violence" that seems to be all his own. He's so "corporations are people" that he thinks economic harm in reduced business equates to bodily harm or destruction of property.
My tax dollars are finally at work. Hundreds of police in riot gear are working in Central now to remove some of the unattended road barricades, right under the nose of the rioters and in front of dozens of cameras. Finally they've grown some spine. They took out a barricade in Mong Kok yesterday.
Needs more tanks.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 12, 2014, 06:55:18 PM
Needs more tanks.
It is very simple. They should hope that the HK police successfully clears them. Because if the police fail for the second time, the third time will be done by an outside contractor :ph34r:
To nobody's surprise, the mainland media are beginning to call this the Chinese version of the "Colour revolutions", and that western intelligence agencies are behind.
Cause mainland Chinese will believe anything, amirite?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 12, 2014, 07:13:40 PM
Cause mainland Chinese will believe anything, amirite?
They don't. Communist propaganda is recognised as such. Fool me once, and so on.
The point is, that is what Beijing thinks. Beijing considers what is happening in HK a colour revolution supported by western governments. They think it is a threat to the Party's existance.
They think everything is a threat to the Party's existence.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 12, 2014, 07:29:42 PM
They think everything is a threat to the Party's existence.
Exactly. And they are probably right. If they give in to the rioters' demands, what stops hundreds of thousands of people from going to Tian An Men again? I mean, if several hundred people gather there, they can arrest them all easily. What if one tenth the population of Beijing suddenly engages in civil disobedience? That's already well over a million people. It isn't like the communists are widely-loved, and they know it. There is a reason why the communists have survived for so long after the fall of the communist regimes in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Because they are careful and they take all threats seriously.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 12, 2014, 07:21:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 12, 2014, 07:13:40 PM
Cause mainland Chinese will believe anything, amirite?
They don't. Communist propaganda is recognised as such. Fool me once, and so on.
The point is, that is what Beijing thinks. Beijing considers what is happening in HK a colour revolution supported by western governments. They think it is a threat to the Party's existance.
I doubt even the CCP leadership really believes that. More likely they see that that sort of propaganda works in Russia, and there really isn't anything better to say, so trot out the ol' "evil foreigners" line. People who don't believe wouldn't believe anything anyway, and its makes a convenient line for the gullible people who will believe it, and the paranoid rank-and-file inside the Party.
You know, we Americans might have our problems, but at least we don't try to blame every significant incident of civil unrest on foreign provocateurs.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 12, 2014, 07:40:50 PM
There is a reason why the communists have survived for so long after the fall of the communist regimes in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Because they are careful and they take all threats seriously.
I thought the reason was because they gave up communism and started making money hand over fist.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 12, 2014, 08:16:32 PM
You know, we Americans might have our problems, but at least we don't try to blame every significant incident of civil unrest on foreign provocateurs.
It's always worked before when it comes to authoritarianism; and especially, as Tonitrus stated, the Chinese have a special funny bone when it comes to foreigners.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 12, 2014, 08:20:13 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 12, 2014, 07:40:50 PM
There is a reason why the communists have survived for so long after the fall of the communist regimes in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Because they are careful and they take all threats seriously.
I thought the reason was because they gave up communism and started making money hand over fist.
That too :yes:
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 12, 2014, 08:16:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 12, 2014, 07:21:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 12, 2014, 07:13:40 PM
Cause mainland Chinese will believe anything, amirite?
They don't. Communist propaganda is recognised as such. Fool me once, and so on.
The point is, that is what Beijing thinks. Beijing considers what is happening in HK a colour revolution supported by western governments. They think it is a threat to the Party's existance.
I doubt even the CCP leadership really believes that. More likely they see that that sort of propaganda works in Russia, and there really isn't anything better to say, so trot out the ol' "evil foreigners" line. People who don't believe wouldn't believe anything anyway, and its makes a convenient line for the gullible people who will believe it, and the paranoid rank-and-file inside the Party.
Oh they believe it. It isn't just the CCP leadership. You have never listened to what the loyalist parties in HK say on a daily basis. They are still stuck in the 19th century mindset that foreigners want to colonise and divide up China.
I walk past the main riot camp on my way to work every day. There are lots of posters calling for the civil service to strike, or least, work-to-rule. I am extremely proud that the civil service and the police have remained completely loyal despite all these.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2FthCA7WZFJS_zpsc2d3b498.jpg&hash=3c415bb3d74ebc20a822623b027a939082b4b541) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/thCA7WZFJS_zpsc2d3b498.jpg.html)
(police oath in HK)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1413161270602SL4_6F2F713BB5E0BBA1C5CEC234B91B7592_zpsd10740b2.jpg&hash=94944a37590887c0137332d51b80ec9ccc7e1efd) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1413161270602SL4_6F2F713BB5E0BBA1C5CEC234B91B7592_zpsd10740b2.jpg.html)
Brinksmanship between police and rioters in Central right now.
The yellow man drone deserves neither liberty nor something something."
--Benjamin Franklin
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 12, 2014, 09:08:39 PM
The yellow man drone deserves neither liberty nor something something."
--Benjamin Franklin
What about "don't bite the hand that feeds you"? HK's continued stability, prosperity, and liberties depend on China. We have to stay in the good graces of the communists. We have responsibility to make sure that we don't harbour elements that may subvert them. They have largely upheld their end of the bargain. We need to do our part as well. It is too bad they think democracy in HK is a threat to them. Live with it, guys.
Just came back from lunch. Chaos everywhere. I saw that the police were clearing the barricades and tents in Queensroad with heavy equipment. At the same time, thousands of anti-rioters approached from the other side, escorted by police. The rioters were sandwiched in between and could only watch helplessly. Rioters tried to tie the obstacles together with rope, but police contractors just used heavy gear to lift the entire barricade up in the air. The main camp in Harcourt road kept asking people to defend Queensway.
This shows that the government finally has some guts. The headlines today is actually the rioters' offer to remove the barricades in Queensway in exchange for access to what they call the "Civic square" in government HQs (actually a small parking lot with flag poles under my window). Government's response? Send in police to retake Queensroad, and officially denies them access to "Civic square" at the same time. That's the biggest "fuck you" I can imagine.
China organizes thugs way better than Russia, take notes Putin!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29592379
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F10625143_710073659074447_3596325641113624760_n_zpsd7b18420.jpg&hash=268873ad22ea8ebfd8240ad0e8c2138b015aa5a3) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/10625143_710073659074447_3596325641113624760_n_zpsd7b18420.jpg.html)
I was standing on one of these footbridges half an hour ago. Lots of yelling, shouting, and I believe more than a few people were punched.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F10710521_10152362988810785_4207926691780299752_n_zps29094a8a.jpg&hash=355f123cb5575bee7685a0adf4b5211db29eb3b0) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/10710521_10152362988810785_4207926691780299752_n_zps29094a8a.jpg.html)
Police contractors at work in Queensway.
Whether the protesters succeed or are crushed, I hope somehow Mono gets caught in the cogs of history.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 01:34:52 AM
I was standing on one of these footbridges half an hour ago. Lots of yelling, shouting, and I believe more than a few people were punched.
So the Status Quoers of HK was standing on a footbridge looking down on "rioters" being attacked by "anti-rioters" and thinking, finally the government steps in.
I can imagine further conflict in your Great Nation.
Quote from: Martinus on October 13, 2014, 01:39:55 AM
Whether the protesters succeed or are crushed, I hope somehow Mono gets caught in the cogs of history.
Succeed? I really don't see how they will get what they want. Their main demands are that Beijing allow free elections in HK, and that HK's Chief Executive resign. Beijing has said a million times that they won't move. The communists publicly back the Chief Executive, who has said many times that he is here to stay. The government is functioning. The police and the civil service are loyal. The public is split but there is growing discontent about the disruption. More and more people are speaking out and calling for the roads to reopen. The government has cut off all talks with the rioters and refuses to recognise them as a negotiation partner at all. The rioter numbers have dwindled and I sometimes see only several hundred people there in the early hours (there is 24 hour news and camera coverage of the site).
It may last for some weeks or even months, but I don't see how the rioters will succeed in getting what they want.
Quote from: Liep on October 13, 2014, 01:46:10 AM
So the Status Quoers of HK was standing on a footbridge looking down on "rioters" being attacked by "anti-rioters" and thinking, finally the government steps in.
That's a pretty neat description. I like that, and yes, it was a fairly accurate one :hug:
At least 20 taxis and several heavy trucks have entered Queensway to try to help clear the barricades. Taxi drivers have been hit hard by the loss of business due to road closures.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29592379
QuoteHong Kong protests: Scuffles break out at Admiralty camp The protest opponents pulled down barricades at the site
Scuffles have broken out in Hong Kong after opponents of the pro-democracy movement moved in on the main protest site in the financial district.
Hundreds of men, some wearing surgical masks, rushed the barricades set up by protesters in recent weeks.
Police were reportedly trying to keep the two groups apart.
Earlier on Monday police dismantled some barricades at the camp, outside government offices, in an operation to reduce traffic congestion.
The demonstrators - a mixture of student groups and the Occupy Central pro-democracy movement - are demanding that the people of Hong Kong be given full voting rights in the next leadership election in 2017.
China says that under Hong Kong law it is allowed to vet the list of candidates who can stand.
Some of the crowd were seen dragging away tents belonging to the protesters
The police operation earlier on Monday went ahead largely peacefully
The protesters have occupied key areas, including in Central and Mong Kok across the harbour, for more than two weeks.
At the start of the movement the rallies drew tens of thousands of people, and hundreds were sleeping on the streets overnight. However, numbers have reduced in recent days to just a few hundred, mostly students.
On Monday, police moved in to remove some barricades to reduce traffic, but said they did not plan to clear the camp entirely.
But hours later, several groups of people opposed to the protests converged on the demonstrators.
Among them were taxi drivers, many of them angry about more than two weeks of disruption. They arrived at the Admiralty protest site in their cars shouting and beeping horns.
A few had signs on the front of their cars saying: "We can't take it any more."
A crane was seen removing some of the barricades at Admiralty
Other groups opposed to the demonstrators joined in shouting "Occupy is illegal" and demanding that roads be opened. Some people started dismantling the tents put up by protestors.
At least one lorry with a crane was seen removing barricades and television footage appeared to show a masked man being forced to drop a small knife.
Earlier this month, peaceful demonstrators at the Mong Kok rally site were attacked by residents. Police have said they believe some of the attackers were members of the Triad criminal gang.
I think this is important in several ways. This is the first time anti-rioters have taken action against the main rioter camp in Admiralty. Previously, they tried to rush the camps in Mongkok and the small one in Causeway Bay. So the prevailing opinion is that the camps in Mongkok and Causeway Bay are more dangerous, but the main one in Admiralty is safe. This latest clash destroyed the illusion of the Admiralty camp as being peaceful. A lot of rioters want to occupy roads but are fearful of Mongkok-style clashes have chosen to stay in Admiralty. This will hopefully convince some to stay home.
Today also marked the first time since late September that police have taken direct action against the rioters. The developments in the first 10 days or so in October focused on the talks between the rioters and government. Now that the government has made it clear that the time for talks is over, the focus is now on police action. I think this is a good sign that police are testing waters, probing rioter reaction and level of support, and removing some of the peripheral barricades, hopefully all to prepare for the final showdown. There also seems good rapport and cooperation between police and anti-rioter groups all day.
Another very important sign is the stance of the by-standers. There were tons of people at the scenes, but the majority stayed on the air-conditioned footbridges that overlooked the clashes, content with taking pictures (me included). The police dared to take action against the barricades during busy lunch hour, and the level of by-stander support for the rioters is non-existant. 28 September largely failed because too many people went to the streets to support the riots when tear gas was fired. I think the status quoers now outnumber the rioters by a large margin.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 03:11:14 AM
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
You realize you sound like a fascist lunatic when you say things like this?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 13, 2014, 05:11:56 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 03:11:14 AM
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
You realize you sound like a fascist lunatic when you say things like this?
with an attitude like his you can enact Cultural Revolutions and kill millions, unopposed
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 13, 2014, 05:11:56 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 08, 2014, 03:11:14 AM
It isn't just about taking back our roads. It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.
You realize you sound like a fascist lunatic when you say things like this?
It does seem we have fundamentally different attitudes toward civil disobedience, and I don't think we can change each other's minds :)
I guess road to serfdom applies here quite well.
For Mono and apparently most of the rest of HK it is an inconceivable concept to assure their livelihood without the state handing it to them.
Sad, really.
Quote from: Tamas on October 13, 2014, 05:41:57 AM
I guess road to serfdom applies here quite well.
For Mono and apparently most of the rest of HK it is an inconceivable concept to assure their livelihood without the state handing it to them.
Sad, really.
Sometimes we need to look at the bright side. Even for a large scale riot, it isn't as bad as it could be. Just imagine for a moment. What if the majority of HK joined? What if the police or the civil service joined? What if there is a general strike? In a city of 7 million, I don't think the rioters number more than 100,000 in any given time, though the number of sympathisers far exceed this number.
If any one of the above scenario happened , our roads are already patrolled by PLA tanks. So I look at the bright side of things, and realise that cooler heads still prevail.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 01:47:39 AM
Succeed? I really don't see how they will get what they want. Their main demands are that Beijing allow free elections in HK, and that HK's Chief Executive resign. Beijing has said a million times that they won't move. The communists publicly back the Chief Executive, who has said many times that he is here to stay. The government is functioning. The police and the civil service are loyal. The public is split but there is growing discontent about the disruption. More and more people are speaking out and calling for the roads to reopen. The government has cut off all talks with the rioters and refuses to recognise them as a negotiation partner at all. The rioter numbers have dwindled and I sometimes see only several hundred people there in the early hours (there is 24 hour news and camera coverage of the site).
Government overthrow in dictatorships is always inconceivable until one day it happens. It'll happen to China one day too, probably not over this protest, but over one that starts just as innocuously. It will come with sudden speed, just like it did in Eastern Europe and numerous other states throughout history, shocking everyone, both the opposition and the loyalists.
Its not a riot FFS. Its a protest. The only people rioting are the pro-government thugs.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 13, 2014, 06:34:22 AM
Government overthrow in dictatorships is always inconceivable until one day it happens. It'll happen to China one day too, probably not over this protest, but over one that starts just as innocuously. It will come with sudden speed, just like it did in Eastern Europe and numerous other states throughout history, shocking everyone, both the opposition and the loyalists.
I have been hearing this for the last 25 years, ever since Tian An Men. The past 25 years have been some of the most peaceful and prosperous times in recent Chinese history.
Quote from: Liep on October 13, 2014, 01:46:10 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 01:34:52 AM
I was standing on one of these footbridges half an hour ago. Lots of yelling, shouting, and I believe more than a few people were punched.
So the Status Quoers of HK was standing on a footbridge looking down on "rioters" being attacked by "anti-rioters" and thinking, finally the government steps in.
I can imagine further conflict in your Great Nation.
HK has always been at war with Eastasia.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 06:46:50 AM
I have been hearing this for the last 25 years, ever since Tian An Men. The past 25 years have been some of the most peaceful and prosperous times in recent Chinese history.
So even the people of HK, with access to the internet, think that China has been peaceful for the last 25 years? I mean, i suppose you could argue that it has been more peaceful than it was during the civil wars, the war with Japan, the Great Leap Forward into the Grave, and the Anticultural Revolution, but that's not much of a bar. Rural China over the last 25 years has been more like rural Congo than rural Canada.
The Monos don't care about chaos and insurrection in the countryside b/c it doesn't penetrate the bubbles of the first tier city residents clambering up the property ladders. Unless a gang of machete wielding Uighur fanatics gets to a train station . . .
Quote from: grumbler on October 13, 2014, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 06:46:50 AM
I have been hearing this for the last 25 years, ever since Tian An Men. The past 25 years have been some of the most peaceful and prosperous times in recent Chinese history.
So even the people of HK, with access to the internet, think that China has been peaceful for the last 25 years? I mean, i suppose you could argue that it has been more peaceful than it was during the civil wars, the war with Japan, the Great Leap Forward into the Grave, and the Anticultural Revolution, but that's not much of a bar. Rural China over the last 25 years has been more like rural Congo than rural Canada.
The point I was trying to make was that I keep hearing people say that the communist in regime in China can go at any moment, but I am not holding my breath. The communists are clever and I think they have learnt the right lessons from the fall of other communist regimes.
First of all, they have developed a succession mechanism. It is now expected that the #1 in the party and the majority of the politburo standing committee will serve for 10 years only, and no more. The next #1 will serve as an apprentice of sorts halfway into the 10 year period. So there is steady, relatively transparent succession. There is also an age limit for membership in the politburo standing committee to ensure that the old guard leave their posts before they die. I may be wrong on the specifics, but it is something like "no one above the age of 67 may be appointed onto the committee, and no one above that age may be reappointed".
Second, they have concluded that Gorbachev destroyed communism in Russia, and they are determined not to make the same mistake. The most significant long-term impact of Tian An Men 1989 was that the political reform wing of the Chinese communist party was entirely wiped out. And it isn't making a return.
I have met many "new immigrants" to HK who have just arrived from the mainland. Guess what, they don't hate the communists. They know it isn't perfect, and they know about the corruption. But life is reasonably good, and even the government isn't too bad. At least it does well in maintaining stability, creating jobs, dealing with natural disasters, keeping the economy afloat etc. It can be a lot better, of course, but we aren't talking about North Korea or Burma level of total disregard of the population.
More and more senior communist officials have called the events in HK a Colour revolution sponsored by western governments. Previously, these views were expressed in the form of articles in the People's Daily. Today, at least two officials, one of them a vice premier, have repeated the same view in front of cameras. What's more, the People's Daily says that a clearance operation is "imminent". I think it is quite clear that the politburo has discussed the matter and has already come to a view.
The 4th Communist Central Committee meeting (of the current five year term) will take place later this month. There are rumours that HK has been ordered to clean up before the meeting takes place. It is customary for the mainland to take extra precautionary measures to ensure stability before and during these meetings.
Back in HK, police and rioters are continuing the tug of war of removing and rebuilding road barricades. Police action this morning successfully resulted in the reopening of a road in Causeway Bay. So far, law enforcement action is limited to dealing with objects but not people. I think this is a way to strengthen the eventual "we've done everything we possibly can before we remove the rioters" line.
Riot police are confronting rioters in Queensway right now. The rioters rebuilt the road barricades in Queensway with concrete and bamboo after yesterday's clearance operation. Police are saying this is totally unacceptable because concrete will block the way for ambulances. They will take immediate removal action.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 08:54:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 13, 2014, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 06:46:50 AM
I have been hearing this for the last 25 years, ever since Tian An Men. The past 25 years have been some of the most peaceful and prosperous times in recent Chinese history.
So even the people of HK, with access to the internet, think that China has been peaceful for the last 25 years? I mean, i suppose you could argue that it has been more peaceful than it was during the civil wars, the war with Japan, the Great Leap Forward into the Grave, and the Anticultural Revolution, but that's not much of a bar. Rural China over the last 25 years has been more like rural Congo than rural Canada.
The point I was trying to make was that I keep hearing people say that the communist in regime in China can go at any moment, but I am not holding my breath. The communists are clever and I think they have learnt the right lessons from the fall of other communist regimes.
No one is saying it'll fall tomorrow, it might not happen for another 25 years, but when it does fall, it will be sudden, swift and unexpected.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 13, 2014, 09:36:57 PM
No one is saying it'll fall tomorrow, it might not happen for another 25 years, but when it does fall, it will be sudden, swift and unexpected.
Are you saying we should operate on the assumption that the communist regime will fall any moment? If not, I think we should make the reasonable assumption that the communists are here to stay, and act accordingly.
Mono, I know you've got a massive hard-on for the way the police have been clearing out the demonstrators, but you've got to realize it's a coin-flip: on one hand, the group could see reason and disband, maybe with more grumbling than before about the perceived puppet government not representing their interests at all.
On the other hand, if these students are as desperate as you say they are, the violence shown toward their nonviolence might just spark real riots. You know, actual vandalism and assault (not just a few thrown punches).
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 08:54:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 13, 2014, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 06:46:50 AM
I have been hearing this for the last 25 years, ever since Tian An Men. The past 25 years have been some of the most peaceful and prosperous times in recent Chinese history.
So even the people of HK, with access to the internet, think that China has been peaceful for the last 25 years? I mean, i suppose you could argue that it has been more peaceful than it was during the civil wars, the war with Japan, the Great Leap Forward into the Grave, and the Anticultural Revolution, but that's not much of a bar. Rural China over the last 25 years has been more like rural Congo than rural Canada.
The point I was trying to make was that I keep hearing people say that the communist in regime in China can go at any moment, but I am not holding my breath. The communists are clever and I think they have learnt the right lessons from the fall of other communist regimes.
First of all, they have developed a succession mechanism. It is now expected that the #1 in the party and the majority of the politburo standing committee will serve for 10 years only, and no more. The next #1 will serve as an apprentice of sorts halfway into the 10 year period. So there is steady, relatively transparent succession. There is also an age limit for membership in the politburo standing committee to ensure that the old guard leave their posts before they die. I may be wrong on the specifics, but it is something like "no one above the age of 67 may be appointed onto the committee, and no one above that age may be reappointed".
Second, they have concluded that Gorbachev destroyed communism in Russia, and they are determined not to make the same mistake. The most significant long-term impact of Tian An Men 1989 was that the political reform wing of the Chinese communist party was entirely wiped out. And it isn't making a return.
I have met many "new immigrants" to HK who have just arrived from the mainland. Guess what, they don't hate the communists. They know it isn't perfect, and they know about the corruption. But life is reasonably good, and even the government isn't too bad. At least it does well in maintaining stability, creating jobs, dealing with natural disasters, keeping the economy afloat etc. It can be a lot better, of course, but we aren't talking about North Korea or Burma level of total disregard of the population.
Good, informative post. It's a shame that such posts are an exception, and trolling about "rioters" blocking the sacred roads is the norm. :(
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 13, 2014, 10:08:17 PM
Mono, I know you've got a massive hard-on for the way the police have been clearing out the demonstrators, but you've got to realize it's a coin-flip: on one hand, the group could see reason and disband, maybe with more grumbling than before about the perceived puppet government not representing their interests at all.
On the other hand, if these students are as desperate as you say they are, the violence shown toward their nonviolence might just spark real riots. You know, actual vandalism and assault (not just a few thrown punches).
I read a lot of western media reports on this, and one thing that shocked me is that they do not understand the underlying politics in HK at all. They keep saying the government should talk to them and reach a compromise etc.
There is no room for compromise. None.
What they demand is democracy. Beijing give us a lot of things. Favourable economic policy, opportunity for our workers to work up there (but not the other way round), millions of tourists, and they are willing to let us retain our freedom and right to run our own affairs. Everything, except democracy. It is like demanding from a tiger its own skin. They will not give in.
If the the rioters resort to physical violence, then so be it. It is their choice, and we can't help it. The police will fire live shots if necessary. If that fails, the PLA tanks are already stationed here.
Quote from: Tamas on October 13, 2014, 05:41:57 AM
I guess road to serfdom applies here quite well.
For Mono and apparently most of the rest of HK it is an inconceivable concept to assure their livelihood without the state handing it to them.
Sad, really.
I would have thought you would be more supportive since his reasons neatly mirror your own. Mono has stated he opposes them because they want to create an extensive welfare state so they can rob the more productive members of society. The protests are an example of the "vile populism" that you were talking about earlier.
Perhaps you guys aren't familiar with some of HK's history, and this is important to understand why the rioters will not back down and there is no room for compromise.
In short, they've been duped for 30 years.
Back in the early 80s, there was general panic when the communists made it clear that they intend to take back HK. The memory of the Cultural revolution was still fresh. The British and Chinese governments largely convinced people to stay with a lot of major promises, One Country Two Systems, we run our own affairs, etc.
One of the pillars for confidence was democracy. The demcorats believed that the handover would be ok if HKers could elect our own government. The Chinese response was, ok, you can have your democracy, but it will take time. The Basic Law was published, and it contained very specific provisions on how to elect the Chief Executive and legislature, up to 2007/08. The Basic Law is silent on what happens in 2007 and 2008, and beyond.
The democrats took it to mean that they can have their universal suffrage then.
In 2004 or 05 or so, the communists again announced very specific, less than universal suffrage rules on how to elect the Chief Executive and legislature between 2007 and 2017. They said there would be universal suffrage in 2017. And the democrats bought it once again.
6 weeks ago, Beijing said universal suffrage means that the candidates would be vetted. To the democrats, they feel that the end game that they have fought for for 30 years is a farce. They've been duped for 30 years.
They. Will. Not. Back. Down. Not this time. In a way, I think this is a mental journey that they need to go through. That they have done everything humanly possible to fight for it. There is no room for compromise. This is the result of 30 years of dialogue and fights, not a spur of the moment thing.
It could be said that buying the idea that HK would have democratic institutions in the long run, at the benevolent blessing of the PRC, is a sucker's bet...and that they should have left 20 years ago to Canada (as many have).
Like others, I support the sentiment of the democracy supporters, but there is no illusion they would ever successful. When push comes to shove, the PRC shoves with Type-59s (tho probably Type-99s these days).
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 13, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
It could be said that buying the idea that HK would have democratic institutions in the long run, at the benevolent blessing of the PRC, is a sucker's bet...and that they should have left 20 years ago to Canada (as many have).
Like others, I support the sentiment of the democracy supporters, but there is no illusion they would ever successful. When push comes to shove, the PRC shoves with Type-59s (tho probably Type-99s these days).
We can survive without democracy :P I myself never believed for a moment that there would be democracy in HK. That's fine by me, and a lot of others. It is a nice-to-have, not a must. There is even an upside, that we avoid a welfare state. Even without democracy, we will have good governance. In the end, what decides the matter of whether we stay in HK or Canada isn't democracy, but jobs. The fact is, a lot of those who have left for Canada have come back.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:16:03 PM
If the the rioters resort to physical violence, then so be it. It is their choice, and we can't help it. The police will fire live shots if necessary. If that fails, the PLA tanks are already stationed here.
A government that thinks its legitimate use of force extends to violently putting down civil unrest? Where have we heard that before? Oh right, ask Bashar al-Assad how well that's worked in Syria. Or Gaddafi in Libya.
Just saying, Mono, historically, regimes that use physical violence on their citizens tend to be taken down in a rather bloody manner, and usually it's at the hand of the same citizens they've tried to quell. Consider that for a moment before skipping down the street and singing about how the PLA tanks are coming.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 13, 2014, 10:49:42 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:16:03 PM
If the the rioters resort to physical violence, then so be it. It is their choice, and we can't help it. The police will fire live shots if necessary. If that fails, the PLA tanks are already stationed here.
A government that thinks its legitimate use of force extends to violently putting down civil unrest? Where have we heard that before? Oh right, ask Bashar al-Assad how well that's worked in Syria. Gaddafi.
Just saying, Mono, historically, regimes that use physical violence on their citizens tend to be taken down in a rather bloody manner, and usually it's at the hand of the same citizens they've tried to quell. Consider that for a moment before skipping down the street and singing about how the PLA tanks are coming.
As I have said many times before, the closest historical parallel is Tian An Men. 25 years of peace and prosperity after that, remember.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 13, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
It could be said that buying the idea that HK would have democratic institutions in the long run, at the benevolent blessing of the PRC, is a sucker's bet...and that they should have left 20 years ago to Canada (as many have).
Like others, I support the sentiment of the democracy supporters, but there is no illusion they would ever successful. When push comes to shove, the PRC shoves with Type-59s (tho probably Type-99s these days).
We can survive without democracy :P I myself never believed for a moment that there would be democracy in HK. That's fine by me, and a lot of others. It is a nice-to-have, not a must. There is even an upside, that we avoid a welfare state. Even without democracy, we will have good governance. In the end, what decides the matter of whether we stay in HK or Canada isn't democracy, but jobs. The fact is, a lot of those who have left for Canada have come back.
It's rather sad that in 21st century, not even being ruled by Communists will get you a welfare state. :(
Capitalism has truly won.
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 13, 2014, 10:53:55 PM
It's rather sad that in 21st century, not even being ruled by Communists will get you a welfare state. :(
Capitalism has truly won.
Do you know that, on the mainland, they charge fees for entry into public parks? :lol:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 09:45:13 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 13, 2014, 09:36:57 PM
No one is saying it'll fall tomorrow, it might not happen for another 25 years, but when it does fall, it will be sudden, swift and unexpected.
Are you saying we should operate on the assumption that the communist regime will fall any moment? If not, I think we should make the reasonable assumption that the communists are here to stay, and act accordingly.
Nope. I am not saying that at all. I'm saying it will inevitably fall one day and be a surprise when it does. By definition it is something that can not be planned for. It could fall next week or in 2047. One should act as one's concience dictates regardless.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:51:03 PM
As I have said many times before, the closest historical parallel is Tian An Men. 25 years of peace and prosperity after that, remember.
Notwithstanding that Tian An Men was an aberration in terms of a successful quell, you do realize that at that point, you're talking about stuff that most of the international community would consider crimes against humanity and possibly even war crimes if the ROTW decided a civil war was happening, right?
Assad did exactly what you're saying would likely happen. Not only was it a complete failure in terms of pacification, it ignited violent unrest into a full-blown civil war; now, whenever the flames die down, he's probably going to be the most wanted war criminal since Slobodan Milosevic.
Hell, Tian An Men is kind of a touchy subject with the international community already. China's already resting on a gentleman's assumption that that's not going to happen again.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:55:30 PM
Do you know that, on the mainland, they charge fees for entry into public parks? :lol:
We have some like that too.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 13, 2014, 11:09:41 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:51:03 PM
As I have said many times before, the closest historical parallel is Tian An Men. 25 years of peace and prosperity after that, remember.
Notwithstanding that Tian An Men was an aberration in terms of a successful quell, you do realize that at that point, you're talking about stuff that most of the international community would consider crimes against humanity and possibly even war crimes if the ROTW decided a civil war was happening, right?
Assad did exactly what you're saying would likely happen. Not only was it a complete failure in terms of pacification, it ignited violent unrest into a full-blown civil war; now, whenever the flames die down, he's probably going to be the most wanted war criminal since Slobodan Milosevic.
Hell, Tian An Men is kind of a touchy subject with the international community already. China's already resting on a gentleman's assumption that that's not going to happen again.
I think the HK police plan to remove the rioters by tear gas, pepper spray, shields, human chains, water cannon, and batons. I believe those non-lethal force should be acceptable. It isn't like western governments don't use them. If a rioter attacks a police and is shot, he only has himself to blame.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:55:30 PM
Do you know that, on the mainland, they charge fees for entry into public parks? :lol:
Happens from time to time here, too. A lot of museums and "public" sites can only be accessed after making a "minimum donation" toward the organizers of the site. On a school trip to New York City, we all had to bring a dollar to "donate" so we could get into the Cathedral of St John the Divine, for example.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:55:30 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 13, 2014, 10:53:55 PM
It's rather sad that in 21st century, not even being ruled by Communists will get you a welfare state. :(
Capitalism has truly won.
Do you know that, on the mainland, they charge fees for entry into public parks? :lol:
National Parks (and most federal public lands) require payment, and probably most State parks. Enforcement to many of those is more spotty...usually just requiring you to buy a tag you hang in your car.
If city parks required it (the kind that most people stumble into on a daily basis), that would get silly real fast.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 13, 2014, 11:14:23 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 10:55:30 PM
Do you know that, on the mainland, they charge fees for entry into public parks? :lol:
Happens from time to time here, too. A lot of museums and "public" sites can only be accessed after making a "minimum donation" toward the organizers of the site. On a school trip to New York City, we all had to bring a dollar to "donate" so we could get into the Cathedral of St John the Divine, for example.
Yeah I was once asked to donate A$10 in Australia when I tried to get into a museum.
I said we won't donate. They let us in, with a big frown :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 11:16:04 PM
Yeah I was once asked to donate A$10 in Australia when I tried to get into a museum.
I said we won't donate. They let us in, with a big frown :contract:
Yes, well, over here in The Land of the Free(TM), they're pretty clear about that "donation" being mandatory.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 13, 2014, 11:32:26 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 13, 2014, 11:16:04 PM
Yeah I was once asked to donate A$10 in Australia when I tried to get into a museum.
I said we won't donate. They let us in, with a big frown :contract:
Yes, well, over here in The Land of the Free(TM), they're pretty clear about that "donation" being mandatory.
Mono goes out of his way to ruin the reputation of Chinese tourists. :)
Queensway, westbound is now open for traffic. It is only half a road, but bit by bit, we take back our roads. We defeat civil disobedience as a tool. We get our normalcy and status quo back :cool:
Queensway, east bound is open as well :yeah: That's one of the major east west arteries of HK Island. Police have announced that they will not permit the rioters from blocking that road again. I hope you guys keep your promise this time :glare:
Just came back from lunch, and one of the restaurants that I frequent only has about 20% business left :weep:
I saw the riot leaders and presidents of student unions on my way back to the office. I gave them death glares :mad:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29609461
Quote14 October 2014 Last updated at 03:48
Hong Kong protests: Police remove more barricades Hong Kong police said the operations were aimed at easing road congestion, not removing protesters
Hundreds of police have used chainsaws and bolt-cutters to dismantle barricades put up by pro-democracy activists near the government offices in Hong Kong.
They also re-opened a main thoroughfare in Causeway Bay, a shopping district.
It is the second day of operations which police say are to ease traffic disruption, not clear the protesters.
Demonstrators have occupied parts of Hong Kong for more than two weeks.
The activists, a mix of students and a pro-democracy group called Occupy Central, are demanding a fully democratic election in 2017.
China, which has control over Hong Kong, says residents can vote - but it will vet which candidates are eligible to stand.
Protesters reinforced their barricades after the first removal operation on Monday
On Monday, scuffles broke out between those opposed to the Occupy movement and demonstrators after police removed some barricades in Central district.
Men wearing surgical masks charged at the barricades and tried to remove them.
In a similar clash at the protest site in Mong Kok 10 days ago police said some of those involved had triad backgrounds.
Democratic Party lawmaker Albert Ho told AFP news agency on Monday that this was "one of the tactics used by the communists in mainland China from time to time. They use triads or pro-government mobs to try to attack you so the government will not have to assume responsibility".
Later on Monday protesters reinforced their barricades, building bamboo barriers and cement foundations.
Stores in the busy shopping area of Causeway Bay have been hit by the protests
On Tuesday, police arrived with bolt cutters, chainsaws and sledgehammers. Local media said they were using the chainsaw to cut through the bamboo barriers.
"To ensure public safety and maintain public order, police have to take necessary action to remove the barriers at the occupied spots so that traffic can be partially resumed," police said in a statement.
Some protesters were visibly distressed. "We are only residents and students," one protestor shouted according to AFP. "We will leave as we are unable to fight you but we will not give up."
At the start of the protests last month thousands of people were on the streets, with hundreds sleeping there overnight. However, numbers have dwindled in recent days.
Over the weekend, Hong Kong's embattled leader CY Leung said the protestors had zero chance of changing Beijing's mind on constitutional reform.
He added that the protest movement had spun out of control.
Overall I think this is a pretty good day for the government. The strategic initiative has definitely shifted to the government's side. Every day, the police make an announcement about what streets they intend to clear on the next day. And today, the police accomplished their objectives fully. Tomorrow's objective is Mong Kok. Their "remove objects, not people" strategy has worked so far, and there is very little resistance. The police threats are becoming credible, and they have tangible results to show for their efforts. The scene of police motorcycles in formation leading columns of traffic into the liberated roads looks like a victory parade.
Meanwhile, the rioters struggle to come up with a counter. Ever since the government cut off planned talks with them, they are just sitting ducks watching the occupation areas shrink day after day. Their only response when something happens is to ask people to show up in the camps. The problem is this will soon become "cry wolf" if used too many times. They are now reduced to parrying police moves, with no new ideas, no results, no roadmap to success, and no hope for the future. Every day, the central government esculates its war of words, and the HK government repeats its stonewall stance of no negotiations and no backdowns. The rioters can't be more angry and they completely denounce this government as totally hopeless. But as their bargaining chips are taken away from them one by one, any slim hope of reaching the negotiation table before public support falls apart now looks like an illusion.
Rioters occupied Lun Wo road, a secondary east-west road near midnight, to "compensate" for the loss of Queesway. Police pepper sprayed them, dismantled the roadblocks and made mass arrests. Lun Wo road now completely liberated. First time since tear gas was fired in late September that police used pepper spray on this scale. Confrontation between rioters and riot police in a nearby park now.
Police have made it clear that they will not tolerate any new occupation zones.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1413296673458SL4_24890E987D4AB254DDACCB3BE422C620_zps4d3b3845.jpg&hash=40aa4cb1d97e3e9fd4705af4b769124a9258b4a5) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1413296673458SL4_24890E987D4AB254DDACCB3BE422C620_zps4d3b3845.jpg.html)
Party Secretary General Xi, the highest authority in China, has finally spoken. As expected, he has been quoted as saying there is absolutely no room whatsoever to change his stance on Hong Kong's elections. The riots in HK are an attempt to overthrow the communist regime. If the central government gives any ground in HK, Xinjiang and Tibet will fall.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 05:28:43 PM
If the central government gives any ground in HK, Xinjiang and Tibet will fall.
:lol:
Reading Mono these days is like watching Russian news on TV.
Quote from: DGuller on October 14, 2014, 05:42:41 PM
Reading Mono these days is like watching Russian news on TV.
Yet you still read it :hug:
45 people have been arrested in Lun Wo road. All eyes are on Mongkok as police gave advanced notice yesterday that they would do the area. Angry residents have dropped bags of shit (real shit) onto the rioters from their high rise flats.
Quote from: DGuller on October 14, 2014, 05:42:41 PM
Reading Mono these days is like watching Russian news on TV.
Save they have some quite attractive female newscasters on occasion. :cool:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1413310166452_9340A484813095F340BF08AEBE6780F1_zps166a6530.jpg&hash=140f09bdc9d4c053eb504c8a1e3b7f002dc6c7c7) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1413310166452_9340A484813095F340BF08AEBE6780F1_zps166a6530.jpg.html)
This morning inside Lun Wo road tunnel.
Actually, that's a fantastic photo. :D
Love their little wok shields. After a long day of crowd control, it doubles for stir fry!
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 06:02:02 PM
Angry residents have dropped bags of shit (real shit) onto the rioters from their high rise flats.
Wow. Calling you all barbaric wouldn't be far from the truth. :(
Who says police morale is low? I saw on TV that the police advanced with ferocity. The shield wall just kept on advancing without pausing. Anybody who refused to move are by-passed by the shield wall. Rear area police in small groups of 4-6 will then press the individual rioters against the ground and arrest them one-by-one on charges of assault against police.
I think their morale is sky-high after staying on the defensive for two weeks. Most importantly, they are obeying orders :bowler:
Quote from: garbon on October 14, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 06:02:02 PM
Angry residents have dropped bags of shit (real shit) onto the rioters from their high rise flats.
Wow. Calling you all barbaric wouldn't be far from the truth. :(
Huh? I am just telling you what happened.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 14, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 06:02:02 PM
Angry residents have dropped bags of shit (real shit) onto the rioters from their high rise flats.
Wow. Calling you all barbaric wouldn't be far from the truth. :(
Huh? I am just telling you what happened.
People who drop bags of shit on people are barbaric.
I hope we drop a Trident II on them in 2025.
Quote from: garbon on October 14, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 06:02:02 PM
Angry residents have dropped bags of shit (real shit) onto the rioters from their high rise flats.
Wow. Calling you all barbaric wouldn't be far from the truth. :(
That's China for you. They're fine with shit on the roads, but protesters on the roads are a big NO-NO.
Quote from: garbon on October 14, 2014, 06:31:23 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 14, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 06:02:02 PM
Angry residents have dropped bags of shit (real shit) onto the rioters from their high rise flats.
Wow. Calling you all barbaric wouldn't be far from the truth. :(
Huh? I am just telling you what happened.
People who drop bags of shit on people are barbaric.
At least it wasn't delivered fresh from the oven, so to speak.
Be careful if any of you go to China. Make sure you don't have yellow ribbons on you, your bags or your luggages. Try to avoid yellow clothing, and especially yellow umbrellas. People have been detained and questioned for hours for having a yellow ribbon (a symbol of the riots) on their bags.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 07:00:37 PM
Be careful if any of you go to China. Make sure you don't have yellow ribbons on you, your bags or your luggages. Try to avoid yellow clothing, and especially yellow umbrellas. People have been detained and questioned for hours for having a yellow ribbon (a symbol of the riots) on their bags.
:hmm: Better not be an Asian as well.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 07:00:37 PM
Be careful if any of you go to China. Make sure you don't have yellow ribbons on you, your bags or your luggages. Try to avoid yellow clothing, and especially yellow umbrellas. People have been detained and questioned for hours for having a yellow ribbon (a symbol of the riots) on their bags.
Man I avoid saying the word "yellow" around Chinese people as it is.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 14, 2014, 07:10:45 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 07:00:37 PM
Be careful if any of you go to China. Make sure you don't have yellow ribbons on you, your bags or your luggages. Try to avoid yellow clothing, and especially yellow umbrellas. People have been detained and questioned for hours for having a yellow ribbon (a symbol of the riots) on their bags.
Man I avoid saying the word "yellow" around Chinese people as it is.
I don't think being called yellow is considered offensive, even in China. We call ourselves "yellow people" all the time. It is quite neutral.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 07:00:37 PM
Be careful if any of you go to China. Make sure you don't have yellow ribbons on you, your bags or your luggages. Try to avoid yellow clothing, and especially yellow umbrellas. People have been detained and questioned for hours for having a yellow ribbon (a symbol of the riots) on their bags.
I think I'd be more concerned about how the hell I ended up in China.
Quote from: garbon on October 14, 2014, 07:16:48 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 07:00:37 PM
Be careful if any of you go to China. Make sure you don't have yellow ribbons on you, your bags or your luggages. Try to avoid yellow clothing, and especially yellow umbrellas. People have been detained and questioned for hours for having a yellow ribbon (a symbol of the riots) on their bags.
I think I'd be more concerned about how the hell I ended up in China.
:lol:
Mono hasn't exactly covered himself with glory in this thread has he?
Maybe he's been mistakenly standing on the sidewalk outside those tower blocks?
Would explain the smell, wouldn't it.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 06:20:59 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1413310166452_9340A484813095F340BF08AEBE6780F1_zps166a6530.jpg&hash=140f09bdc9d4c053eb504c8a1e3b7f002dc6c7c7) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1413310166452_9340A484813095F340BF08AEBE6780F1_zps166a6530.jpg.html)
This morning inside Lun Wo road tunnel.
No barging? Am I reading that right?
Quote from: mongers on October 14, 2014, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 14, 2014, 05:42:41 PM
Reading Mono these days is like watching Russian news on TV.
Save they have some quite attractive female newscasters on occasion. :cool:
Time for Mono to get an avatar?
These rioters have some pretty amazing stamina. A 20+ day long riot? It is amazing there are any buildings still standing or any shops not yet looted in HK. I presume the death toll is reaching about 70,000 by now?
Battle of Lun Wo Road
Police assembling before the advance
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1413313530785SL4_FB8B09E5372C5FF29C09A0F617E243AF_zps83dce837.jpg&hash=3e0a1a6b9032b0e68341cc411027291bd6cf3997) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1413313530785SL4_FB8B09E5372C5FF29C09A0F617E243AF_zps83dce837.jpg.html)
Police dismantling the roadblocks right in front of the rioters.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F1413313452005SL4_6FFED3839109D974AED75FC3FD316F8C_zps60aab280.jpg&hash=5d6681e94f6e29efe5673b4af000b572e05bce94) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/1413313452005SL4_6FFED3839109D974AED75FC3FD316F8C_zps60aab280.jpg.html)
Police shield wall advancing
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F10703598_710867618995051_904847435044244472_n_zps6a067133.png&hash=50cc09614aaeebf5a4924b89409a3e9ca04dc8f0) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/10703598_710867618995051_904847435044244472_n_zps6a067133.png.html)
Why would rioters place blocks to their rampaging through the streets burning and pillaging? :huh:
Worst rioters ever?
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 09:05:22 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F10703598_710867618995051_904847435044244472_n_zps6a067133.png&hash=50cc09614aaeebf5a4924b89409a3e9ca04dc8f0) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/10703598_710867618995051_904847435044244472_n_zps6a067133.png.html)
Where are the bodies and Molotov Cocktails and shit? What kind of riot is this?
But they are not even rioting! From now on just call them Pole Vaulters, it will be just as relevant to their activities.
Quote from: Valmy on October 14, 2014, 09:20:04 PM
But they are not even rioting! From now on just call them Pole Vaulters, it will be just as relevant to their activities.
I need to remind you where I stand on this constantly :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 09:27:19 PM
I need to remind you where I stand on this constantly :contract:
You could let it slide every now and then...
Nothing on Mong Kok so far. The police probably used up its men and equipment in the unexpected battle of Lun Wo Road.
The next hot spot is legislative council. Today is the first meeting of the new 14/15 legislative year, and the pan-democrats will certainly raise questions on the police. The real spot light will be tomorrow's Chief Executive QA session. He will certainly insist that he arrive at LegCo by official car, even though all the roads are blocked. So it is quite likely that he will cancel the QA session. On the other hand, he may also insist in going, in that case police will be responsible to clear a path for his car. It will be very interesting how the pan democrat legislators will welcome him in LegCo. They have done stuff like throwing objects at him (without hitting him), a mass walk-out as soon as he enters, shouting slogans mid-speech, etc. It will be ironical if the legco security staff use yellow umbrellas to protect him.
You may or may not like the guy, but he has style. In the face of tremendous pressure and almost everybody calling for talks, he acted like a stonewall. No meetings, no talks, no compromise. A really tough guy.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 14, 2014, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 09:27:19 PM
I need to remind you where I stand on this constantly :contract:
You could let it slide every now and then...
When they leave the roads, yes.
HK government has officially rejected any possibility of submitting a supplementary report to the National People's Congress. The riots are caused by the Congress saying that Beijing must vet the candidates of the 2017 Chief Executive election. This ruling is made in response to a report by the HK government. A lot of people hope that a compromise could be reached by HK government submitting a supplemetary report, essentially asking the HK government to ask Beijing to revise its ruling.
The HK government today made a resounding, clear "no" answer to this plan.
Mono, what say you retitle this thread:
Bulletins from the State Ministry of Truth and Well-being.
You guys are really coming down hard on Mono here. Half of you would be doing the same.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 09:27:19 PM
I need to remind you where I stand on this constantly :contract:
Yeah. Firmly in the wrong.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 06:35:25 AM
You guys are really coming down hard on Mono here. Half of you would be doing the same.
Thankfully, I can say from experience dealing with the Occupy Philadelphia crowd that I would not be part of that half. Inconvenient, yes. Unhygienic and making Philly smell worse than usual, yes. But I never tried to call it rioting or cackled with glee as they were assaulted by counterprotesters or police officers.
Quote from: Valmy on October 14, 2014, 09:11:31 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 14, 2014, 09:05:22 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F10703598_710867618995051_904847435044244472_n_zps6a067133.png&hash=50cc09614aaeebf5a4924b89409a3e9ca04dc8f0) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/10703598_710867618995051_904847435044244472_n_zps6a067133.png.html)
Where are the bodies and Molotov Cocktails and shit? What kind of riot is this?
That's some small bucklers on the riot police.
Quote from: celedhring on October 15, 2014, 07:48:24 AM
That's some small bucklers on the riot police.
They have much bigger, rectangular ones. Those are better for defence though, as they are heavy and bulky, but offer better protection. In this case, the police are on the offense, so they use smaller ones for quick advance.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 15, 2014, 07:43:18 AM
making Philly smell worse than usual, yes.
That isn't possible.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 08:57:46 AM
They have much bigger, rectangular ones. Those are better for defence though, as they are heavy and bulky, but offer better protection. In this case, the police are on the offense, so they use smaller ones for quick advance.
Its nice to see police states give their police some fashion options.
The cheesecake smell. Like rotten steak 'ums.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 15, 2014, 06:59:20 PM
The cheesecake smell. Like rotten steak 'ums.
:lol:
Next time I go to The Cheesecake Factory I'll ask for my cake WIZ WIT.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 06:35:25 AM
You guys are really coming down hard on Mono here. Half of you would be doing the same.
Spending every day rage venting to a crowd that sympathizes more with the object of your ire? Doesn't sound very enticing to me.
Quote from: mongers on October 15, 2014, 05:49:15 AM
Mono, what say you retitle this thread:
Bulletins from the State Ministry of Truth and Well-being.
:lol:
Great new title.
Quote from: grumbler on October 15, 2014, 06:55:24 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 08:57:46 AM
They have much bigger, rectangular ones. Those are better for defence though, as they are heavy and bulky, but offer better protection. In this case, the police are on the offense, so they use smaller ones for quick advance.
Its nice to see police states give their police some fashion options.
We're hardly in a position to criticize. :P
Rioters tried to retake Lun Wo road last night.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F10425440_711555752259571_110128437240391037_n_zps2ed4d118.jpg&hash=706a2efd0f73152da6392dc8922e4e1d5da327b1) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/10425440_711555752259571_110128437240391037_n_zps2ed4d118.jpg.html)
Police reinforcements arrived to pepper spray them.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2F10374451_711551325593347_8040709692537865568_n_zps713da496.jpg&hash=7fcad23e7a5def3d2af61dc1ec7b2bb9d6bfadba) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/10374451_711551325593347_8040709692537865568_n_zps713da496.jpg.html)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 15, 2014, 07:16:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 06:35:25 AM
You guys are really coming down hard on Mono here. Half of you would be doing the same.
Spending every day rage venting to a crowd that sympathizes more with the object of your ire? Doesn't sound very enticing to me.
I've thought about this. Actually, I think it will be boring if most people here agree with me.
Check out the haole copper.
From The Economist: a recent poll showed c. 60% support for the terrorists. So perhaps not a minority position.
- I walked through the main rioter camp on my way to work this morning. Granted, Harcourt road is a 12-lane highway, whereas Lun Wo road is only 2 lanes. So the police shield wall that clears Harcourt road needs to be 6 times as wide as the one shown in the pictures above, at least. It is also more complicated because there are overpasses, concrete central dividers, subsidiary roads, exits and entries etc. But still, my observation is that there are at most 500 people there in the mornings. There are 30,000 full time police officers in HK. Operationally, the police can clear them out easily and without significant casualties, even considering that the rioters inevitably get reinforcements once the battle starts (they have sentries that observe police truck movements). So it is a question of whether Beijing and HK government can deal with the political consequences of clearing the camp. It seems quite clear to me that whatever happens, the rift between a significant chunk of the population and the government cannot be healed, at least not in this government term.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 15, 2014, 08:01:27 PM
Check out the haole copper.
From The Economist: a recent poll showed c. 60% support for the terrorists. So perhaps not a minority position.
As I have said before in this thread, the pan-democrats consistently get around 60% of the vote in every election since the 90s, so I am not surprised about that figure. I also need to point out that a lot depends on how the question is phrased. "Do you support democracy?" "Do you support the pan-democrats and students?" "Do you think Beijing should relax the election rules?" etc will get majority support. "Do you support the occupation of roads indefinitely to get concessions out of Beijing?" will probably get less.
I rechecked the article. 60% reject the current 2017 election plan.
Beijing has stepped up the attack on the rioters, now calling them idiots and separatists. There is also a threat that if this continues, HK's status as Asia's financial centre will decline. I don't think that is merely a prediction. That's an actual threat, because our status as a financial centre depends on Beijing's monetary and financial policies. If they deliberately punish us, we are done.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 15, 2014, 08:16:18 PM
I rechecked the article. 60% reject the current 2017 election plan.
Then reject it. The pan-demcorats can vote it down in LegCo, as passage requires 2/3 super-majority. Under the current circumstances, any democrat who switches sides can expect to be lynched. I don't think Beijing cares whether the election plan goes ahead or not any more. If the pan-democrats vote it down, Beijing will then be able to say, "hey I gave you universal suffrage, you don't want it, so that's it. We'll never speak of it again in the next 50 years, and you can stick with your 1,200 committee that elects your Chief Executive that you obviously LOVE. kthxbye."
Quote from: Caliga on October 15, 2014, 06:58:20 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 15, 2014, 09:13:17 AM
That isn't possible.
:hmm: I don't remember Philly smelling bad.
It didn't, but then they halved the trash pickups to cover a budget shortfall a few years ago. On top of that, they installed compactors in center city to require even less pickups. It's a beautiful city, but not a particularly good-smelling one.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 06:35:25 AM
You guys are really coming down hard on Mono here. Half of you would be doing the same.
Nah I would be protesting, which is why I really hope we never get something like this here. I am too young to die. You would probably be doing the same based on your posts though.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 08:19:37 PM
Beijing has stepped up the attack on the rioters, now calling them idiots and separatists. There is also a threat that if this continues, HK's status as Asia's financial centre will decline. I don't think that is merely a prediction. That's an actual threat, because our status as a financial centre depends on Beijing's monetary and financial policies. If they deliberately punish us, we are done.
Collective punishment? How delightfully tyrannical and arbitrary.
I would hope that is all bluster to try to encourage the Hong Kong government to end this.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 15, 2014, 08:01:27 PM
Check out the haole copper.
From The Economist: a recent poll showed c. 60% support for the terrorists. So perhaps not a minority position.
My friend was in HK when it went down, and was staying in the area where it happened. She said there was broad support from the locals she talked to, to the point of professionals getting time off from work to go there, people bringing home cooked food, etc.
Quote from: Valmy on October 15, 2014, 09:45:08 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 08:19:37 PM
Beijing has stepped up the attack on the rioters, now calling them idiots and separatists. There is also a threat that if this continues, HK's status as Asia's financial centre will decline. I don't think that is merely a prediction. That's an actual threat, because our status as a financial centre depends on Beijing's monetary and financial policies. If they deliberately punish us, we are done.
Collective punishment? How delightfully tyrannical and arbitrary.
I would hope that is all bluster to try to encourage the Hong Kong government to end this.
Not a bad move if they pull it off, trying to put the blame on any eventual decline on HK democrats rather than on Beijing's economic policies (or things outside of Beijing's control altogether).
Quote from: Valmy on October 15, 2014, 09:45:08 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 08:19:37 PM
Beijing has stepped up the attack on the rioters, now calling them idiots and separatists. There is also a threat that if this continues, HK's status as Asia's financial centre will decline. I don't think that is merely a prediction. That's an actual threat, because our status as a financial centre depends on Beijing's monetary and financial policies. If they deliberately punish us, we are done.
Collective punishment? How delightfully tyrannical and arbitrary.
I would hope that is all bluster to try to encourage the Hong Kong government to end this.
We only have ourselves to blame if it happens. Hong Kong's position is very much like the guy in the Life of Pi. We are unarmed and stuck with a tiger on a boat in the middle of an ocean. We gotta learn how to co-exist with the tiger. The tiger has been reasonable so far, and there is a mutually beneficial relationship. But if the tiger says some lines must not be crossed, you don't cross them, especially if it isn't a life and death matter. We have sailed without democracy for decades. We aren't going to die without it.
I am pretty sure that Beijing now calls the shots on how to deal with the riots, so they don't need to encourage the HK government to do anything.
Quote from: Jacob on October 15, 2014, 09:48:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 15, 2014, 08:01:27 PM
Check out the haole copper.
From The Economist: a recent poll showed c. 60% support for the terrorists. So perhaps not a minority position.
My friend was in HK when it went down, and was staying in the area where it happened. She said there was broad support from the locals she talked to, to the point of professionals getting time off from work to go there, people bringing home cooked food, etc.
I've talked to a lot of civil servants. Their reaction: we should photograph all the participants, build a database, and use a computer system to check each and every future applicant for the civil service against the database. We'd know what to do with them if we found that any of them participated :menace:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 10:11:23 PM
I've talked to a lot of civil servants. Their reaction: we should photograph all the participants, build a database, and use a computer system to check each and every future applicant for the civil service against the database. We'd know what to do with them if we found that any of them participated :menace:
(https://www.zambianwatchdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/chinese-firing-squad.jpg)
Man you Civil Servants are ruthless.
Quote from: Valmy on October 15, 2014, 10:17:47 PM
Man you Civil Servants are ruthless.
I thought it is normal to conduct security and background checks on prospective employees? We can't have someone who thinks it is morally wrong to pepper spray people employed as a police officer, whose job includes pepper spraying those who occupy roads.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 10:26:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 15, 2014, 10:17:47 PM
Man you Civil Servants are ruthless.
I thought it is normal to conduct security and background checks on prospective employees? We can't have someone who thinks it is morally wrong to pepper spray people employed as a police officer, whose job includes pepper spraying those who occupy roads.
I guess I thought :menace: meant something more than you just weren't going to hire them :P
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 10:11:23 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 15, 2014, 09:48:18 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 15, 2014, 08:01:27 PM
Check out the haole copper.
From The Economist: a recent poll showed c. 60% support for the terrorists. So perhaps not a minority position.
My friend was in HK when it went down, and was staying in the area where it happened. She said there was broad support from the locals she talked to, to the point of professionals getting time off from work to go there, people bringing home cooked food, etc.
I've talked to a lot of civil servants. Their reaction: we should photograph all the participants, build a database, and use a computer system to check each and every future applicant for the civil service against the database. We'd know what to do with them if we found that any of them participated :menace:
We will be sure to send links to this website to whatever government happens to be in power in the future. After all, they can't have civil service employees who may have made statements that could be termed "unpatriotic". Or someone who has been talking to people in US army psyops and Navy intelligence.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 10:34:43 PM
We will be sure to send links to this website to whatever government happens to be in power in the future. After all, they can't have civil service employees who may have made statements that could be termed "unpatriotic". Or someone who has been talking to people in US army psyops and Navy intelligence.
What the hell Raz?
If he's going to be evil, so can I.
mono didn't say he planned to do it, he just said that's what some people suggested. plus, i don't think a single person has ever used :menace: when he seriously planned to do something menacing or evil.
you're threatening people's lives over internet comments again, raz. :hmm:
Quote from: LaCroix on October 15, 2014, 11:21:57 PM
plus, i don't think a single person has ever used :menace: when he seriously planned to do something menacing or evil.
You're so naive. :menace:
Quote from: LaCroix on October 15, 2014, 11:21:57 PM
mono didn't say he planned to do it, he just said that's what some people suggested. plus, i don't think a single person has ever used :menace: when he seriously planned to do something menacing or evil.
you're threatening people's lives over internet comments again, raz. :hmm:
I did no such thing. Besides Mono feels safe in his position, and I take him at his word.
I really hope Mono's life is ruined, one way or another, by this. Perhaps he will try to congratulate the riot police on their another brutal purge, get mistaken for a terrorist and shot? :wub:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 10:09:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 15, 2014, 09:45:08 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 15, 2014, 08:19:37 PM
Beijing has stepped up the attack on the rioters, now calling them idiots and separatists. There is also a threat that if this continues, HK's status as Asia's financial centre will decline. I don't think that is merely a prediction. That's an actual threat, because our status as a financial centre depends on Beijing's monetary and financial policies. If they deliberately punish us, we are done.
Collective punishment? How delightfully tyrannical and arbitrary.
I would hope that is all bluster to try to encourage the Hong Kong government to end this.
We only have ourselves to blame if it happens. Hong Kong's position is very much like the guy in the Life of Pi. We are unarmed and stuck with a tiger on a boat in the middle of an ocean. We gotta learn how to co-exist with the tiger. The tiger has been reasonable so far, and there is a mutually beneficial relationship. But if the tiger says some lines must not be crossed, you don't cross them, especially if it isn't a life and death matter. We have sailed without democracy for decades. We aren't going to die without it.
I am pretty sure that Beijing now calls the shots on how to deal with the riots, so they don't need to encourage the HK government to do anything.
Is there a chance the Hong Kong civil service will be made redundant with no right to pension? :whistle:
I think Mono is right, in a way, but I think that his predictions about the future of Honk Kong are completely independent of the actions of either the rioters or the protesters. The Chinese occupation Government needed HK at one point, as they lacked people with the financial skills and credibility to negotiate production contracts with the outside world. Thus, they accepted something as foreign to them as Hong Kong because they needed it. They don't need it any more. The COG is going to drain HK of money for as long as it can, but is also going to promote Shanghai as the "real" financial center of China and allow HK to dwindle in significance and prosperity. Shanghai is more "Chinese" from the viewpoint of the COG, even though they (like the people of HK) speak funny.
The fact that HK has a huge cash reserve fits the needs of the COG perfectly; hence, the COG will make sure that the government of HK won't spend it. After the 50 year transition period is over, we can all probably guess where that money is going.
So, while I agree with Mono that the protesters are not going to accomplish anything, I think the protesters are smart to get this out of their system, and make at least a token effort to save their city. The rioters will eventually win, and the city suppressed back into its status as a cash cow for the COG (and, especially, the elites that make up the COG and can afford HK property), but at least they won't have to sit back, thirty years from now, by their fireside with their grandson on their knee and, when he asks, 'What did you do in the great struggle for HK's future?' they won't have to cough and say, 'Well, your granddaddy shoveled shit in his government office.'
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 10:34:43 PM
We will be sure to send links to this website to whatever government happens to be in power in the future. After all, they can't have civil service employees who may have made statements that could be termed "unpatriotic". Or someone who has been talking to people in US army psyops and Navy intelligence.
That's enough of that shit.
Quote from: Martinus on October 16, 2014, 01:21:23 AM
I really hope Mono's life is ruined, one way or another, by this. Perhaps he will try to congratulate the riot police on their another brutal purge, get mistaken for a terrorist and shot? :wub:
That's enough of that shit, too.
Crap, I was about to post an alternative scenario to that of Mart's. :( It would've been more amusing too. :(
Okay. Sorry.
Yeah, it's not fair on Mono, it's not as if those pro-democracy rioters have to put up with that or any sort of 'abuse'.
Quote from: mongers on October 16, 2014, 10:54:13 AM
Yeah, it's not fair on Mono, it's not as if those pro-democracy rioters have to put up with that or any sort of 'abuse'.
While it is chilling to hear someone who was educated here taking up the party line in that way, I wonder how many Languishites would do the same if put in Mono's position.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 11:01:36 PM
If he's going to be evil, so can I.
You don't know who he is.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 16, 2014, 10:59:17 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 16, 2014, 10:54:13 AM
Yeah, it's not fair on Mono, it's not as if those pro-democracy rioters have to put up with that or any sort of 'abuse'.
While it is chilling to hear someone who was educated here taking up the party line in that way, I wonder how many Languishites would do the same if put in Mono's position.
A fair number I expect, which is probably uncontroversial. Who and for what reason is probably more contentious :)
Quote from: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 11:08:57 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 16, 2014, 10:59:17 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 16, 2014, 10:54:13 AM
Yeah, it's not fair on Mono, it's not as if those pro-democracy rioters have to put up with that or any sort of 'abuse'.
While it is chilling to hear someone who was educated here taking up the party line in that way, I wonder how many Languishites would do the same if put in Mono's position.
A fair number I expect, which is probably uncontroversial. Who and for what reason is probably more contentious :)
I think you are correct. Heck people think Fox news is news.
It's hard to be sympathetic to somebody breaking your windows, so to speak. I find Mono's reaction completely unremarkable.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 16, 2014, 02:19:07 PM
It's hard to be sympathetic to somebody breaking your windows, so to speak. I find Mono's reaction completely unremarkable.
Yes, I agree that it is hard to be sympathetic when facing down actual riots...;)
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 02:33:48 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 16, 2014, 02:19:07 PM
It's hard to be sympathetic to somebody breaking your windows, so to speak. I find Mono's reaction completely unremarkable.
Yes, I agree that it is hard to be sympathetic when facing down actual riots...;)
Come now, those rioters recklessly opening and closing umbrellas is a pretty terrifying prospect.
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 02:33:48 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 16, 2014, 02:19:07 PM
It's hard to be sympathetic to somebody breaking your windows, so to speak. I find Mono's reaction completely unremarkable.
Yes, I agree that it is hard to be sympathetic when facing down actual riots...;)
If someone were blocking the street and inconveniencing me in other ways, I'd probably be less sympathetic even if I initially agreed with them.
Quote from: derspiess on October 16, 2014, 03:01:14 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 02:33:48 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 16, 2014, 02:19:07 PM
It's hard to be sympathetic to somebody breaking your windows, so to speak. I find Mono's reaction completely unremarkable.
Yes, I agree that it is hard to be sympathetic when facing down actual riots...;)
If someone were blocking the street and inconveniencing me in other ways, I'd probably be less sympathetic even if I initially agreed with them.
Yeah, I think inconvenience is the worst evil. Much worse than losing your freedoms.
Quote from: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 11:01:36 PM
If he's going to be evil, so can I.
You don't know who he is.
I don't think the biggest racist could come up with a better caricature of an Asian than Mono's Languish persona.
Quote from: Martinus on October 16, 2014, 03:13:26 PM
Yeah, I think inconvenience is the worst evil. Much worse than losing your freedoms.
Depends on the situation, I guess.
Quote from: Martinus on October 16, 2014, 03:13:26 PM
Yeah, I think inconvenience is the worst evil. Much worse than losing your freedoms.
The people who travel on that highway aren't taking away anyone's freedoms.
I went back and looked at how we treated OWS: http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,6092.0.html
While I made a few negative comments (both about their desire to make a sustainable park community and them marching illegally on the Brooklyn Bridge), it looks like at least for the first 50 pages, the thread was best summarized as:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 11, 2011, 05:09:43 PM
EUOT occupy thread degenerates into flamewar about the best way to re-distribute rich peoples' money. Languish occupy thread degenerates into flamewar about commercial use of the word "champagne" and the relative merits of high-quality sparkling wines.
:D
Also, I wonder how Mono would deal with it if his rioters had done the following:
Quote from: garbon on October 09, 2011, 11:51:17 PM
Lovely, one of the protesters created an art...piece that features a rotting pig head. She 'sprayed some stuff on it to keep the flies away but its definitely rotting'.
Quote from: garbon on May 09, 2012, 03:45:55 PM
Different note, I heard that some OWS types rioted on my home street in SF last Tuesday. Took out some glass windows of small business fronts. :(
Or this! :angry:
Quote from: garbon on December 09, 2011, 11:46:32 AM
Now they're messing with my shows! :angry:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/occupy-wall-street-protesters-shut-law-order-svu-set-depicting-ows-article-1.989070
QuoteMore than 100 Occupy Wall Street demonstrators stormed the set for "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit" across from the Manhattan State Supreme Courthouse, shutting down production of an OWS-themed episode.
"We made it so that they could not exploit us and that's awesome," said Tammy Schapiro, 29, of Brooklyn.
The protesters arrived around midnight at Foley Square and roamed around the park inspecting tents and signs built by the production company.
"This is not us," said Drew Hornbein, 24, of Brooklyn Heights. "We are not part of corporate TV America."
Some of the set signs read "End War on Workers" "Greed No" and "War Profiteers."
About 100 police officers lined the perimeter of the production, preventing protesters from getting too close.
"It's hysterical," Hornbein said. "Two weeks ago they kicked us out of Zuccotti Park. Now they have this set trying to pretend it's us. It's odd."
After midnight, a police officer on a bullhorn announced that the film permit had been rescinded by the city, which drew cheers from the crowd.
Cops then threatened to arrest them if they did not leave the park. After a momentary standoff, police moved in and dispersed the crowd.
"This is bastardization going on. This is not the case of imitation is a form of flattery," said a man identified as Scooby 49. "This is insulting."
The production crew moved in and started dismantling the set.
Any moment now the fact that OWS wasn't brutally suppressed will mean that the US government will completely collapse.
The use of the word Champagne is important damn it! :mad:
As an aside, Jacob, I think we now have a pretty good idea of who would be reacting the same as Mono if they were in his position.
Quote from: frunk on October 16, 2014, 03:43:15 PM
Any moment now the fact that OWS wasn't brutally suppressed will mean that the US government will completely collapse.
You did notice that Occupy Wall Street occupied a privately owned park, didn't you?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 16, 2014, 03:55:09 PM
You did notice that Occupy Wall Street occupied a privately owned park, didn't you?
And?
Quote from: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 11:01:36 PM
If he's going to be evil, so can I.
You don't know who he is.
I have conferred with my lawyer and he has advised me not to comment further. It would probably be better if he stopped commenting as well, he was fucking warned too!
Quote from: frunk on October 16, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
And?
And if they had occupied 5th Avenue or Interstate 95 they probably would have been "brutally suppressed."
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 16, 2014, 04:12:43 PM
Quote from: frunk on October 16, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
And?
And if they had occupied 5th Avenue or Interstate 95 they probably would have been "brutally suppressed."
Yeah, they were fairly quickly dispersed when the occupied a public park.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 16, 2014, 04:12:43 PM
Quote from: frunk on October 16, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
And?
And if they had occupied 5th Avenue or Interstate 95 they probably would have been "brutally suppressed."
Probably true, but if it was a major thoroughfare they would of been cleared or moved to a different area within the day.
It seems that there is genuine division in Hong Kong over the protests, even if most support them to some degree. The point of view that China is unlikely to cave to their demands and the protests may produce a backlash isn't crazy.
At the same time, Mono is a rather unique person who sees the world in a quirky way and probably isn't representative of anyone else. We've known that for a while.
I don't think too much venom should be sent Mono's way. I don't think he is out to harm anyone else.
I remember back in the early days of the overthrow of Mubarak everyone in the west being supportive of the protestors and Arab Spring. At the time I was working with a couple from Egypt. They were very diplomatic in how they spoke, maybe because they didn't want to get a similar reaction to what Mono is getting, but they seemed to see the events in Cairo with alarm (while in no way being fans of Mubarak). As time goes by, their point of view seems much more reasonable.
Quote from: mongers on October 16, 2014, 10:54:13 AM
Yeah, it's not fair on Mono, it's not as if those pro-democracy rioters have to put up with that or any sort of 'abuse'.
a few weeks ago when you were advocating leaving ebola infected british citizens to die in africa, there wasn't really any shit thrown your way.
Quote from: LaCroix on October 16, 2014, 05:48:20 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 16, 2014, 10:54:13 AM
Yeah, it's not fair on Mono, it's not as if those pro-democracy rioters have to put up with that or any sort of 'abuse'.
a few weeks ago when you were advocating leaving ebola infected british citizens to die in africa, there wasn't really any shit thrown your way.
Does anyone take Mongers seriously? I mean he is our resident ditch shitter.
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 05:59:58 PM
Does anyone take Mongers seriously? I mean he is our resident ditch shitter.
Does anyone here take anyone else here seriously? I find that hard to believe given how much everyone seems to believe almost everyone else is a bunch of obnoxious cretins.
Quote from: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 06:01:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 05:59:58 PM
Does anyone take Mongers seriously? I mean he is our resident ditch shitter.
Does anyone here take anyone else here seriously? I find that hard to believe given how much everyone seems to believe almost everyone else is a bunch of obnoxious cretins.
I am dead serious. :angry:
Quote from: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 06:01:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 05:59:58 PM
Does anyone take Mongers seriously? I mean he is our resident ditch shitter.
Does anyone here take anyone else here seriously? I find that hard to believe given how much everyone seems to believe almost everyone else is a bunch of obnoxious cretins.
:huh: I personally don't believe it. I know it.
Quote from: DGuller on October 16, 2014, 06:03:30 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 06:01:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 05:59:58 PM
Does anyone take Mongers seriously? I mean he is our resident ditch shitter.
Does anyone here take anyone else here seriously? I find that hard to believe given how much everyone seems to believe almost everyone else is a bunch of obnoxious cretins.
:huh: I personally don't believe it. I know it.
I know you are a Russian agent.
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 06:02:30 PM
I am dead serious. :angry:
For sure, but I don't think anyone takes you seriously.
Quote from: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 06:12:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 06:02:30 PM
I am dead serious. :angry:
For sure, but I don't think anyone takes you seriously.
What am I clown to you? A puppet? :(
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 06:13:59 PM
What am I clown to you? A puppet? :(
What type of answer would you like? Earnest? Languish banter style?
Quote from: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 06:16:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 06:13:59 PM
What am I clown to you? A puppet? :(
What type of answer would you like? Earnest? Languish banter style?
<_<
Quote from: garbon on October 16, 2014, 05:59:58 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on October 16, 2014, 05:48:20 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 16, 2014, 10:54:13 AM
Yeah, it's not fair on Mono, it's not as if those pro-democracy rioters have to put up with that or any sort of 'abuse'.
a few weeks ago when you were advocating leaving ebola infected british citizens to die in africa, there wasn't really any shit thrown your way.
Does anyone take Mongers seriously? I mean he is our resident ditch shitter.
I do. :bowler: (seriously)
Quote from: Razgovory on October 16, 2014, 04:07:47 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 16, 2014, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2014, 11:01:36 PM
If he's going to be evil, so can I.
You don't know who he is.
I have conferred with my lawyer and he has advised me not to comment further. It would probably be better if he stopped commenting as well, he was fucking warned too!
For the record, I'm not the lawyer Raz is talking about. :contract:
My advice would have been to go out, guns blazing.
Quote from: Martinus on October 17, 2014, 03:11:37 AM
My advice would have been to go out, guns blazing.
Circumstances change, the advice changes, but the one constant of Marty's counsel to Raz is that the end result is Raz's demise. :hmm:
:P
Quote from: alfred russel on October 17, 2014, 08:49:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 17, 2014, 03:11:37 AM
My advice would have been to go out, guns blazing.
Circumstances change, the advice changes, but the one constant of Marty's counsel to Raz is that the end result is Raz's demise. :hmm:
:P
:lol:
Quote from: derspiess on October 16, 2014, 03:27:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 16, 2014, 03:13:26 PM
Yeah, I think inconvenience is the worst evil. Much worse than losing your freedoms.
Depends on the situation, I guess.
I guess this is the other 25%
It has been quiet. Too quiet. :ph34r:
While I'll agree that Mono's point of view isn't the most endearing, we had a local perspective that was a bit different than most of ours. Then a few threatened him personally, and now the thread dies. Congrats. <_<
Quote from: alfred russel on October 22, 2014, 12:10:48 AM
While I'll agree that Mono's point of view isn't the most endearing, we had a local perspective that was a bit different than most of ours. Then a few threatened him personally, and now the thread dies. Congrats. <_<
I think only Raz threatened him.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomnamako/kenny-g-visits-hong-kong-protests-striking-sour-note-with-au
QuoteKenny G Visits Hong Kong Protests, Striking Sour Note With Authorities
The saxophone player is wildly popular in China. Government officials took the opportunity to remind everyone that they think the protests are illegal.
Kenny G, one of the largest-selling instrumental musicians ever and an icon in China, visited pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong on Wednesday. The smooth jazz saxophonist just finished a concert tour through the mainland.
Reuters reported that China's foreign ministry – wary of foregin involvement in what it sees as a domestic issue — cool on the visit:
QuoteChina's foreign ministry, which has expressed repeated dissatisfaction about what it sees as foreign interference in an internal issue, said it did not know any details about Gorelick's visit.
"Kenny G's musical works are widely popular in China, but China's position on the illegal Occupy Central activities in Hong Kong is very clear," ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying told a daily news briefing.
"We hope that foreign governments and individuals speak and act cautiously and not support the Occupy Central and other illegal activities in any form," she added.
Kenny G's melody "Going Home" is a mainstay in China, the AP reported. It "can be heard at train stations, department stores, airports, hotel lobbies and over loudspeakers in public parks, and is often used as a signal for people to clear out."