Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

[Admiral Yi]

Can Hong Kongolites travel freely in and out of China?

[Tonitrus]

Can Hong Kongolites travel freely in and out of China?

That too.  State to state?  No papers?

[Jacob]

From the CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hong-kong-protests-police-ease-tactics-on-umbrella-revolution-1.2780879

Not every civil servant agrees with Mono. I wonder if Mono knows her?

"The students are protecting the right to vote, for Hong Kong's future. We are not scared, we are not frightened, we just fight for it," said Carol Chan, a 55-year-old civil service worker who said she took two days off to join the protests after becoming angered over police use of tear gas Sunday.

But others reflect Mono's views:

While many Hong Kong residents support the calls for greater democracy — dubbed the "umbrella revolution" by some, although the crowds' demands fall far short of revolution — the unrest worries others.

"I strongly disagree with the protesters," said an older woman who gave only her surname, Chan. "Those of us who came to the city 60 or 70 years ago had nothing and we worked and suffered so much to make Hong Kong the rich city it is today. And now the protesters have made our society unstable. For me, being able to eat and sleep is already a luxury. I don't need democracy. What does it mean?"

Interestingly enough, when I read the article earlier there was a bit about a hedge fund manager - with his name no less - who was helping organize and fund supplies to the demonstrators, so that indicated to me that it's not just a haves-vs-have-nots; though it's not in the article now. I wonder if the article got edited.

[grumbler]

Their jobs have already been destroyed.  The median salary in HK is around $11,000 per month (US$1,400).  How much does a square foot of housing costs these days?  Around the same.  90%+ of the population have no hope whatsoever of buying his own place.  Young married couples either have to stay with their parents, or rent illegal flats of less than 100 square feet large that takes away half their income. 

Yeah, the fucks who set up that system did wreck your city, didn't they? 

[jimmy olsen]

This is a frenzy?

When Marty is calling someone non-Muslim evil and there is general agreement, I reckon it's fair to characterize it as a frenzy.

What characterizes a frenzy versus normal everyday agreement?

[Monoriu]

Can Hong Kongolites travel freely in and out of China?

Yes.  The reverse is not true.  Mainlanders need permits to visit HK and Macau.  I am not 100% sure on this, but I remember reading that HKers have the "privilege" to visit Tibet without the need to apply for a permit.  Mainlanders need permits to go to Tibet.

[Valmy]

Huh.  Is there any temptation to visit there?  I mean just because it is such a pain in the ass for anybody else.

[Monoriu]

Huh.  Is there any temptation to visit there?  I mean just because it is such a pain in the ass for anybody else.

Definitely.  It has been on our to do list for a long time.  The main problem is that we'll get altitude sickness.  We've been to other high altitude places, and both of us are susceptible.  Another problem is the wife has high standards for accommodation and food.  She is waiting for better hotels to be built in Lhasa before going 

[Monoriu]

My understanding is their formal request is the ability to directly nominate and elect the chief executive, without prior vetting by the (Beijing appointed) executive committee.

Yes.  They've added a new one, that the Chief Executive must resign.  Neither will happen.  If the stalemate continues, the likelihood of the PLA intervening will increase. 

[Monoriu]

Also there's precious few here who can get pious about someone cheering on the pepper-spraying, baton-charging wing of law enforcement. This place does it every time there's a demonstration. We are all aware they're blocking ROADS, right?

Plenty of people act as if they're unaware of the fact. 

I know. Get the fucking army in.

In fairness they are apparently leaving pavements open for people to get to and from work.

They aren't.  They just don't have the numbers to block all the roads, and the trains are still running.  Lots of people are unhappy, and passer-bys shout at them all the time.  This morning someone with a Mercedes (a "have") just drove through the crowd at high speed.  Nobody died. 

[Monoriu]

[Monoriu]

Maybe I'm mistaking Mono's point of view, but from previous posts going way back, he hasn't been much of an advocate for democracy. He once put things in the perspective that the civil service ran the show when the British were in place (the UK was far away and didn't really care about day to day stuff), and that established norms that have continued to today.

It would be easy to say that he supports the deference to the civil service as a civil servant, but it also seems to align with his politics and worldview. I'm guessing he wouldn't support "true democracy" in Singapore either. In Hong Kong's case, detached British rule backing up the system has been replaced by detached Chinese rule backing up the system, so I think I may understand where he is coming from.

I'd be interested if Mono agrees.

For me, democracy is a means toward an end.  Democracy is a good way to ensure good governance, freedom, rule of law, etc.  But HK is a special case because we already have all those things without democracy.  So I don't really see the point of insisting on 100% democratic elections (we already have some).  People need to face reality that HK is part of China and they won't let us have the elections.  You go too far and Beijing will just come and take everything we cherish away.  It is just a simple matter of declaring a state of emergency and ordering the PLA troops already here to take over. 

[Monoriu]

Their jobs have already been destroyed.  The median salary in HK is around $11,000 per month (US$1,400).  How much does a square foot of housing costs these days?  Around the same.  90%+ of the population have no hope whatsoever of buying his own place.  Young married couples either have to stay with their parents, or rent illegal flats of less than 100 square feet large that takes away half their income. 

Yeah, the fucks who set up that system did wreck your city, didn't they? 

It is really, really bad.  I don't think it was intentional to set up that "system".  What happened was, back in 97, 98 during the Asian financial crisis, real estate prices dropped by 70%, causing chaos.  To restore confidence in the market, the government stopped most of the development projects.  There was also a belief that HK's birthrate had dropped to Japan levels, so there was no need to build more housing.  But in 2007/08, the financial crisis kicked in, and interest rates became record low.  That, and China's rise means that many investors and speculators from the mainland are buying up our housing as a store of value.  We are HK and we are all about free trade, so we can't stop them.  So this now means that housing is unaffordable to most.  The government is now trying to create more land, but this takes like 10 years or more, too late to deal with the current situation. 

[Neil]

Why not just have Beijing execute the speculators/kulaks/counterrevolutionaries and redistribute the housing the people?

[Monoriu]

Why not just have Beijing execute the speculators/kulaks/counterrevolutionaries and redistribute the housing the people?

Because the guys who have bought our housing *are* the ruling class in Beijing