Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

[Martinus]

I don't think I can have respect for someone who believes that the only reason to have a democracy is to have a welfare state.

So you are no longer on the left, then?

Elaborate.

[Grey Fox]

Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.

[garbon]

Ah, even better. Freaking Critical Mass.

You get that too? My favourite part is that it is on Friday evenings here, when everybody is trying to get out of the city.

Well I haven't seen in here in New York but we definitely had it in SF. I was always glad that it took place after I got home as I would not have been a happy car commuter if I couldn't get home as they were blocking my parking area (went right past my apt building).

[Martinus]

Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.

Even assuming I want a welfare state, I don't see how this parses with his comment.

[derspiess]

Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.

Is he wrong?

[celedhring]

Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.

Is he wrong?

Yeah, how can you be a leftie without wanting a welfare state? Unless you're going for the whole collectivization shebang, it's the centerpiece of redistribution politics.

[frunk]

Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?

[alfred russel]

Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?

Singapore?

[Monoriu]

Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?

Singapore?

I think Singapore goes further than HK on public housing and possibly retirement benefits.  It is an example of a successful state that isn't a real democracy though. 

[frunk]

Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?

Singapore?

According to Wiki:

The government has rejected the idea of a generous welfare system, stating that each generation must earn and save enough for its entire life cycle. There are, however, numerous means-tested assistance programs provided by the Ministry of Community Development, Youth and Sports. Some of the programs include providing between SGD 400 to SGD 1000 per month to needy households, free medical care at government hospitals, money for children's school fees, rental of studio apartments and training grants for courses.

[The Brain]

Cheese?

[The Minsky Moment]

So, when are the tanks rolling in?

If they just want to skip classes and demonstrate on campus, they can do it for as long as they want.  If they don't fulfill the attendance requirements and can't graduate, it is their problem (HK doesn't have a real credit system where you can complete your degree in whatever amount of time you want.  You generally must graduate within 4 years). 

They have already tried blocking roads a few months ago.  The police surrounded them, picked them up one-by-one and cleared the area within a few hours.  The same thing will happen when they try the same tactic again, likely on 1 October (national day of China).  If the scale is too large, the police will use tear gas to reduce the numbers.  Correctional services has already prepared facilities to process thousands.  In any case, it'll be over in a day or two. 

It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace.  No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc.  This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking.  Doesn't stop people from trying though. 

Sounds like an oppressive hellhole.

Sounds like an opportunity for the USA - offer citizenship for any HK student with a good academic record who is subject to criminal sanction in HK for engaging in political protest.
Skim off the best and brightest.

[CountDeMoney]

Yeah, but only if they can float in on an Edsel from Cuba.

[Admiral Yi]

I thought the Edsel came out after the embargo started.

[Razgovory]

I thought the Edsel came out after the embargo started.

Nope.