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Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

Started by Jacob, September 22, 2014, 10:05:27 AM

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Martinus

Quote from: Tamas on September 23, 2014, 04:59:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2014, 02:44:26 AM
I don't think I can have respect for someone who believes that the only reason to have a democracy is to have a welfare state.

So you are no longer on the left, then?

Elaborate.

Grey Fox

Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

garbon

Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2014, 12:35:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2014, 10:22:18 PM
Ah, even better. Freaking Critical Mass. <_<

You get that too? My favourite part is that it is on Friday evenings here, when everybody is trying to get out of the city.

Well I haven't seen in here in New York but we definitely had it in SF. I was always glad that it took place after I got home as I would not have been a happy car commuter if I couldn't get home as they were blocking my parking area (went right past my apt building).
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Martinus

Quote from: Grey Fox on September 23, 2014, 08:01:08 AM
Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.

Even assuming I want a welfare state, I don't see how this parses with his comment.

derspiess

"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

celedhring

Quote from: derspiess on September 23, 2014, 09:54:40 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 23, 2014, 08:01:08 AM
Tamas thinks everyone on the left wants a welfare state.

Is he wrong?

Yeah, how can you be a leftie without wanting a welfare state? Unless you're going for the whole collectivization shebang, it's the centerpiece of redistribution politics.

frunk

Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?

alfred russel

Quote from: frunk on September 23, 2014, 10:08:48 AM
Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?

Singapore?
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

Monoriu

Quote from: alfred russel on September 23, 2014, 10:19:47 AM
Quote from: frunk on September 23, 2014, 10:08:48 AM
Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?

Singapore?

I think Singapore goes further than HK on public housing and possibly retirement benefits.  It is an example of a successful state that isn't a real democracy though. 

frunk

Quote from: alfred russel on September 23, 2014, 10:19:47 AM
Quote from: frunk on September 23, 2014, 10:08:48 AM
Is there a successful modern state that isn't a welfare state more or less?

Singapore?

According to Wiki:

QuoteThe government has rejected the idea of a generous welfare system, stating that each generation must earn and save enough for its entire life cycle. There are, however, numerous means-tested assistance programs provided by the Ministry of Community Development, Youth and Sports. Some of the programs include providing between SGD 400 to SGD 1000 per month to needy households, free medical care at government hospitals, money for children's school fees, rental of studio apartments and training grants for courses.

The Brain

Women want me. Men want to be with me.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: garbon on September 22, 2014, 08:57:49 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 22, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 22, 2014, 10:28:35 AM
So, when are the tanks rolling in?

If they just want to skip classes and demonstrate on campus, they can do it for as long as they want.  If they don't fulfill the attendance requirements and can't graduate, it is their problem (HK doesn't have a real credit system where you can complete your degree in whatever amount of time you want.  You generally must graduate within 4 years). 

They have already tried blocking roads a few months ago.  The police surrounded them, picked them up one-by-one and cleared the area within a few hours.  The same thing will happen when they try the same tactic again, likely on 1 October (national day of China).  If the scale is too large, the police will use tear gas to reduce the numbers.  Correctional services has already prepared facilities to process thousands.  In any case, it'll be over in a day or two. 

It is important to note that a criminal record is a huge deal in HK, even for something as minor as disruption of the peace.  No professional licences, no financial jobs, no government jobs, no security jobs, etc.  This is the reason why the organisers of the protests don't want anyone below 40 to participate in road-blocking.  Doesn't stop people from trying though. 

Sounds like an oppressive hellhole.

Sounds like an opportunity for the USA - offer citizenship for any HK student with a good academic record who is subject to criminal sanction in HK for engaging in political protest.
Skim off the best and brightest.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

CountDeMoney

Yeah, but only if they can float in on an Edsel from Cuba.

Admiral Yi

I thought the Edsel came out after the embargo started. :nerd:

Razgovory

I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017