Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

[garbon]

Marti - always a bit late to the party.

[Martinus]

Marti - always a bit late to the party.

Don't blame me. I take my news from the Daily Show which I watch with a 48 hours delay usually.

[derspiess]

Explains quite a bit, actually.

[Maximus]

What form of civil disobedience would be morally corrupt?

How would you define civil disobedience?

[Admiral Yi]

I think civil disobedience means not complying with a law or order you consider unjust.

[Martinus]

I think civil disobedience means not complying with a law or order you consider unjust.

... while being prepared to accept consquences of such action.

[Maximus]

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

[Martinus]

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Yeah. It can be misguided but not morally corrupt. I don't think mono understands morality, though.

[crazy canuck]

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Exactly. 

[DGuller]

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Yeah. It can be misguided but not morally corrupt. I don't think mono understands morality, though.

He understands mortality.

[Martinus]

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Exactly.

Well, playing Devil's Advocate here, what if the act of civil disobedience is based on an entirely corrupt "moral" stance? E.g. someone racist or homophobic breaking the law and accepting consequences of his actions out of a morally indefensible position?

Say, a doctor refusing to help a child born out of a racially mixed union because he believes such unions are wrong.

[Admiral Yi]

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

I don't think the protesters' actions qualify as civil disobedience, since they are refusing to comply with laws which they presumably have no objection to otherwise.  If they were granted the right to nominate candidates freely, would they be in favor of allowing anyone to camp out on public streets.  Gandhi collected salt because he thought the Raj's salt monopoly unjust.  Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus because she thought the bus seating laws were unjust.

That being said, whatever they are doing is not corrupt.  Mono is not covering himself in glory with his application of value-laden terms. 

Previously I called it selfish.  I think arrogant works too.

[Martinus]

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

I don't think the protesters' actions qualify as civil disobedience, since they are refusing to comply with laws which they presumably have no objection to otherwise.  If they were granted the right to nominate candidates freely, would they be in favor of allowing anyone to camp out on public streets.  Gandhi collected salt because he thought the Raj's salt monopoly unjust.  Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus because she thought the bus seating laws were unjust.

That being said, whatever they are doing is not corrupt.  Mono is not covering himself in glory with his application of value-laden terms. 

Previously I called it selfish.  I think arrogant works too.

I think Yi convinced me. I think the condition sine qua non of civil disobedience is that you should be breaking the law you disagree with/consider unjust - not breaking one law because you disagree with some other law or injustice. Otherwise, rioting, looting and murder could be considered civil disobedience as well.

[crazy canuck]

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Exactly.

Well, playing Devil's Advocate here, what if the act of civil disobedience is based on an entirely corrupt "moral" stance? E.g. someone racist or homophobic breaking the law and accepting consequences of his actions out of a morally indefensible position?

Say, a doctor refusing to help a child born out of a racially mixed union because he believes such unions are wrong.

Often times civil disobedience is required because the majority doesnt agree with position of the protestors.  If the underlying cause of the protest is in fact just and comes to be seen as just then the protest will succeed in the long run.  I would like to think the doctor in your hypothetical would not garner any support but my condemnation of his position as being morally wrong doesnt make his position morally corrupt assuming he honestly holds that view.   

[crazy canuck]

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

I don't think the protesters' actions qualify as civil disobedience, since they are refusing to comply with laws which they presumably have no objection to otherwise.  If they were granted the right to nominate candidates freely, would they be in favor of allowing anyone to camp out on public streets.  Gandhi collected salt because he thought the Raj's salt monopoly unjust.  Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus because she thought the bus seating laws were unjust.

That being said, whatever they are doing is not corrupt.  Mono is not covering himself in glory with his application of value-laden terms. 

Previously I called it selfish.  I think arrogant works too.

I think Yi convinced me. I think the condition sine qua non of civil disobedience is that you should be breaking the law you disagree with/consider unjust - not breaking one law because you disagree with some other law or injustice. Otherwise, rioting, looting and murder could be considered civil disobedience as well.

I think that is too narrow.  Civil disobedience is a fairly well recognized legal concept.  It certainly does not involve acts of violence.  It can involve violation of a law that is not directly related to the law being protested.  The acts of the HK protestors are a perfect example of civil disobedience.  They are peacefully violating many laws in order to protest the lack of democracy.

If Yi's definition held then no one in HK could actually engage in civil disobedience because one cannot break a law which does not allow free elections.