Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

[The Minsky Moment]

I think civil disobedience means not complying with a law or order you consider unjust.

Thoreau's essay I think is the origin of the term.  And he was advocating tax evasion as a protest to slavery (or whatever, the essay isn't a model of clarity).  So as a matter of terminology I don't think it is right.  I don't think there is any question that the actions of the HK demonstrators are consistent with Thoreau's concept.

The point isn't just semantic either, because there are some laws or political arrangements that may be very significant and unjust but cannot be resisted directly, indeed that is part of what makes them unjust.  I imagine the HK protestors would say that in their view the very system of government that creates and enforces the law is inherently unjust, and thus the only avenue of CD available to them is to act in a way that demonstrates (as non-violently as possible) their rejection of the authority of that government.

[Eddie Teach]

Don't blame me. I take my news from the Daily Show which I watch with a 48 hours delay usually.

I was watching John Oliver's weekly show and he was talking about how polite and clean the HK rioters were.

[Admiral Yi]

Thoreau's essay I think is the origin of the term.  And he was advocating tax evasion as a protest to slavery (or whatever, the essay isn't a model of clarity).  So as a matter of terminology I don't think it is right.  I don't think there is any question that the actions of the HK demonstrators are consistent with Thoreau's concept.

The point isn't just semantic either, because there are some laws or political arrangements that may be very significant and unjust but cannot be resisted directly, indeed that is part of what makes them unjust.  I imagine the HK protestors would say that in their view the very system of government that creates and enforces the law is inherently unjust, and thus the only avenue of CD available to them is to act in a way that demonstrates (as non-violently as possible) their rejection of the authority of that government.

I think there is substantial doubt whether Thoreau's definition applies to the Hong Kong protesters.  They are not limiting their actions to creating difficulties just for the government they consider unjust; they are also imposing hardships on innocent bystanders.  Even the deeply, deeply retarded Occupy Wall Street protesters tried to specifically interfere with the actions of a group they considered engaged in a malicious activity.

[crazy canuck]

Thoreau's essay I think is the origin of the term.  And he was advocating tax evasion as a protest to slavery (or whatever, the essay isn't a model of clarity).  So as a matter of terminology I don't think it is right.  I don't think there is any question that the actions of the HK demonstrators are consistent with Thoreau's concept.

The point isn't just semantic either, because there are some laws or political arrangements that may be very significant and unjust but cannot be resisted directly, indeed that is part of what makes them unjust.  I imagine the HK protestors would say that in their view the very system of government that creates and enforces the law is inherently unjust, and thus the only avenue of CD available to them is to act in a way that demonstrates (as non-violently as possible) their rejection of the authority of that government.

I think there is substantial doubt whether Thoreau's definition applies to the Hong Kong protesters.  They are not limiting their actions to creating difficulties just for the government they consider unjust; they are also imposing hardships on innocent bystanders.  Even the deeply, deeply retarded Occupy Wall Street protesters tried to specifically interfere with the actions of a group they considered engaged in a malicious activity.

If the system itself is unjust the aim of civil disobedience is to put pressure on that system.  I would be interested in knowing if scholar or court decision accepts your more narrow approach.

[Admiral Yi]

If the system itself is unjust the aim of civil disobedience is to put pressure on that system.  I would be interested in knowing if scholar or court decision accepts your more narrow approach.

Civil wars and domestic terrorism put pressure on ostensibly unjust systems as well.  I don't see how that's enough.

And how in the world would the meaning of civil disobedience end up in a court?  By definition they're illegal acts.

[crazy canuck]

If the system itself is unjust the aim of civil disobedience is to put pressure on that system.  I would be interested in knowing if scholar or court decision accepts your more narrow approach.

Civil wars and domestic terrorism put pressure on ostensibly unjust systems as well.  I don't see how that's enough.

And how in the world would the meaning of civil disobedience end up in a court?  By definition they're illegal acts.

You are forgetting about the nonviolent part....

The meaning of civil disobedience ends up in a court's analysis because Charter rights are often engaged in political protests.

You are beginning to sound an awful lot like Mono 

[The Minsky Moment]

They are not limiting their actions to creating difficulties just for the government they consider unjust; they are also imposing hardships on innocent bystanders. 

Mass tax evasion would also impose hardships on others, not just the government.

[Admiral Yi]

You are beginning to sound an awful lot like Mono 

You're continuing to sound like Crazy Canuck.

[crazy canuck]

You are beginning to sound an awful lot like Mono 

You're continuing to sound like Crazy Canuck.

Thank you.  I take defending fundamental rights fairly seriously - despite what Berkut might assert.

If you want to engage in something other than your usual fare then you might want to educate yourself a bit on the topic.  Try reading the Hughes Report regarding the police arrest of students who were peacefully protesting at the UBC campus during the APEC conference held there.  Mr. Hughes provided one of the best summaries of the legal rights related to civil disobedience you will find.

[Admiral Yi]

Mass tax evasion would also impose hardships on others, not just the government.

As a byproduct.  The hardships imposed on Hong Kong residents are not a byproduct, they are the whole point.

[crazy canuck]

Mass tax evasion would also impose hardships on others, not just the government.

As a byproduct.  The hardships imposed on Hong Kong residents are not a byproduct, they are the whole point.

No, the "whole point" is democratic reform.  If the "whole point" was to bring traffic to a stop then you would have a valid argument.

[CountDeMoney]

Thoreau's essay I think is the origin of the term.  And he was advocating tax evasion as a protest to slavery (or whatever, the essay isn't a model of clarity).

It was actually taxes funding the Mexican War, a war which was not as popular at the time as people think.

Although Thoreau wasn't too big on slavery, either.

[Monoriu]

More infighting among the rioters.  Quick summary:

HK Government: we will focus on the legal and constitutional basis of political reforms in our talks on Friday.
HK Federation of Students: BS.  This is a political issue.  Stop messing our heads with your petty legal speak. 
HK Bar Association (normally the biggest supporter of free elections and the use of civil disobedience): We regret that certain parties see no need to observe the legal and constitutional principles underying political reform.

There is also a public argument between the Federation of Students and the Catholic Cardinal (again, normally one of the biggest proponents of free elections).  The Cardinal is saying that the Federation is hurting the movement by refusing to leave the roads, thus drawing increasing criticism from the public for disruption.  He flat out says that the Federation of Students has no right to represent the movement in talks with the government (the government will only talk to the Federation and nobody else). The Federation shot back at the Cardinal, of course. 

The 3 guys who organised the occupy central movement starting from a year ago have now largely disappeared from public view.  The media reports that they are now booed in the rioter camps. 

I say the government should not clear them, even though the rioter numbers have dwindled to a point where a clearance operation should not be too difficult.  Let them rot in Moscow, like Napoleon.  Let public opinion turn against them.  The longer they stay, the more the public feel that they are an irritation with no achievements to speak of.  Let them be consumed by infighting.  Meanwhile, Beijing has maintained its not a step back stance.  It is important to take back the roads, but even more important to kill the idea of civil disobedience so that nobody in the next two generations will try it again. 

[Monoriu]

It isn't just about taking back our roads.  It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.

You're the one who's morally corrupt

You'll get no argument from me on that point.  I've never said that I am a knight in shining armour, and I don't consider myself as such.  All I am saying is that no matter how long a list of legitimate grievances you have, it is morally wrong to occupy roads until your demands are met. 

[Monoriu]

It isn't just about taking back our roads.  It is about demonstrating how morally corrupt civil disobedience is, and how it will achieve nothing in the future.

Civil disobedience is morally corrupt?

Yes.  Always.