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Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

Started by Jacob, September 22, 2014, 10:05:27 AM

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garbon

Marti - always a bit late to the party. :D
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Martinus

#841
Quote from: garbon on October 08, 2014, 02:22:32 PM
Marti - always a bit late to the party. :D

Don't blame me. I take my news from the Daily Show which I watch with a 48 hours delay usually. :P

derspiess

Explains quite a bit, actually.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Maximus

Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 02:15:16 PM
What form of civil disobedience would be morally corrupt?
How would you define civil disobedience?

Admiral Yi

I think civil disobedience means not complying with a law or order you consider unjust.

Martinus

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 02:59:01 PM
I think civil disobedience means not complying with a law or order you consider unjust.

... while being prepared to accept consquences of such action.

Maximus

Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Martinus

Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Yeah. It can be misguided but not morally corrupt. I don't think mono understands morality, though.


DGuller

Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2014, 03:21:33 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Yeah. It can be misguided but not morally corrupt. I don't think mono understands morality, though.
He understands mortality.

Martinus

Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 03:24:06 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Exactly.

Well, playing Devil's Advocate here, what if the act of civil disobedience is based on an entirely corrupt "moral" stance? E.g. someone racist or homophobic breaking the law and accepting consequences of his actions out of a morally indefensible position?

Say, a doctor refusing to help a child born out of a racially mixed union because he believes such unions are wrong.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

I don't think the protesters' actions qualify as civil disobedience, since they are refusing to comply with laws which they presumably have no objection to otherwise.  If they were granted the right to nominate candidates freely, would they be in favor of allowing anyone to camp out on public streets.  Gandhi collected salt because he thought the Raj's salt monopoly unjust.  Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus because she thought the bus seating laws were unjust.

That being said, whatever they are doing is not corrupt.  Mono is not covering himself in glory with his application of value-laden terms. 

Previously I called it selfish.  I think arrogant works too.

Martinus

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 03:34:56 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

I don't think the protesters' actions qualify as civil disobedience, since they are refusing to comply with laws which they presumably have no objection to otherwise.  If they were granted the right to nominate candidates freely, would they be in favor of allowing anyone to camp out on public streets.  Gandhi collected salt because he thought the Raj's salt monopoly unjust.  Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus because she thought the bus seating laws were unjust.

That being said, whatever they are doing is not corrupt.  Mono is not covering himself in glory with his application of value-laden terms. 

Previously I called it selfish.  I think arrogant works too.

I think Yi convinced me. I think the condition sine qua non of civil disobedience is that you should be breaking the law you disagree with/consider unjust - not breaking one law because you disagree with some other law or injustice. Otherwise, rioting, looting and murder could be considered civil disobedience as well.

crazy canuck

Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2014, 03:32:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 08, 2014, 03:24:06 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

Exactly.

Well, playing Devil's Advocate here, what if the act of civil disobedience is based on an entirely corrupt "moral" stance? E.g. someone racist or homophobic breaking the law and accepting consequences of his actions out of a morally indefensible position?

Say, a doctor refusing to help a child born out of a racially mixed union because he believes such unions are wrong.

Often times civil disobedience is required because the majority doesnt agree with position of the protestors.  If the underlying cause of the protest is in fact just and comes to be seen as just then the protest will succeed in the long run.  I would like to think the doctor in your hypothetical would not garner any support but my condemnation of his position as being morally wrong doesnt make his position morally corrupt assuming he honestly holds that view.   


crazy canuck

Quote from: Martinus on October 08, 2014, 03:40:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 08, 2014, 03:34:56 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 08, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Yea, so by definition I think it can't be morally corrupt.

I don't think the protesters' actions qualify as civil disobedience, since they are refusing to comply with laws which they presumably have no objection to otherwise.  If they were granted the right to nominate candidates freely, would they be in favor of allowing anyone to camp out on public streets.  Gandhi collected salt because he thought the Raj's salt monopoly unjust.  Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus because she thought the bus seating laws were unjust.

That being said, whatever they are doing is not corrupt.  Mono is not covering himself in glory with his application of value-laden terms. 

Previously I called it selfish.  I think arrogant works too.

I think Yi convinced me. I think the condition sine qua non of civil disobedience is that you should be breaking the law you disagree with/consider unjust - not breaking one law because you disagree with some other law or injustice. Otherwise, rioting, looting and murder could be considered civil disobedience as well.

I think that is too narrow.  Civil disobedience is a fairly well recognized legal concept.  It certainly does not involve acts of violence.  It can involve violation of a law that is not directly related to the law being protested.  The acts of the HK protestors are a perfect example of civil disobedience.  They are peacefully violating many laws in order to protest the lack of democracy.

If Yi's definition held then no one in HK could actually engage in civil disobedience because one cannot break a law which does not allow free elections.