Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

[Admiral Yi]

There already is a Cantonese Shanghai.  It's Shanghai.

[Jacob]

There already is a Cantonese Shanghai.  It's Shanghai.

There's nothing Cantonese about Shanghai.

[Admiral Yi]

They don't speak Cantonese in Shanghai? 

[Eddie Teach]

How the heck did we get "Canton" from "Guangzhou" anyway? 

[Jacob]

They don't speak Cantonese in Shanghai? 

No. They speak Shanghainese - a totally different dialect - and there's an ongoing struggle between Mandarin newcomers (and the central government), trying to make Mandarin the standard language there. The Shanghainese are pretty attached to their dialect however. They also, without a doubt, think they're better than the Cantonese (and all other Chinese, for that matter).

There's like two or three dialect regions between the Cantonese speaking region and Shanghai:

[Admiral Yi]

Okey dokey.

[Jacob]

How the heck did we get "Canton" from "Guangzhou" anyway? 

Different transliteration systems via different languages, with some newcomer geographical confusion thrown in.

According to Wikipedia:

It is believed that the romanisation "Canton" originated from the Portuguese: Cantão, which was transcribed from Guangdong. Nevertheless, because at the time of the Portuguese arrival, the capital city had no specific appellation other than the provincial capital (Chinese: 省城; pinyin: shěng chéng; Jyutping: Shaang2 Sheng4) by its people, the province name was adopted for the walled city by the Europeans. The etymology of Canton, as well as the similar pronunciation with the province name Guangdong might have partly contributed to the recent confusion of Canton and Guangdong by certain English speakers.

[Eddie Teach]

Yeah, trying to say "Guangdong" and coming up with Canton makes more sense, especially considering our inconsistency at transliterating t and d (have seen Daoism mentioned frequently).

[MadImmortalMan]

All that's well and good but how is that violence? I hate Critical Mass but it isn't violence.

Would a siege be considered violence if nobody hit anybody, merely starved them?

I'm having trouble with this. The MW dictionary says violence and force are synonyms, but the definitions are not exactly the same. Blocking a street is definitely force. Is there such a thing as non-violent force? If so, is it appropriate to use non-violent force to harm others when not in self-defense?

[Admiral Yi]

A siege would be considered violence because of the implicit threat to bash anyone trying to bring food in.

[Monoriu]

I'm curious what the long term worst case scenario is.

Beijing taking control and Hong Kong becoming a Cantonese Shanghai?

Yeah, Beijing declaring that mainland laws taking effect in HK, and the PLA stepping in would be the worst case scenario.  Death of One Country, Two Systems.  Communist party officials from the mainland become my bosses.  Internet censorship and the rest. 

But even the best case scenario doesn't look good.  Even if the rioters leave tomorrow voluntarily and nothing really bad happens, HK is approaching ungovernable.  I don't see the pan-democrats cooperating with the government in any way.  They'll go out of the way to obstruct every step of the way until Beijing grants true elections, which won't happen.  These occupy movements may return any time something comes up. 

No idea where you get the notion of a Cantonese Shanghai 

[garbon]

All that's well and good but how is that violence? I hate Critical Mass but it isn't violence.

Would a siege be considered violence if nobody hit anybody, merely starved them?

I'm having trouble with this. The MW dictionary says violence and force are synonyms, but the definitions are not exactly the same. Blocking a street is definitely force. Is there such a thing as non-violent force? If so, is it appropriate to use non-violent force to harm others when not in self-defense?

So if police cordon off my street, they've been violent?

[MadImmortalMan]

So if police cordon off my street, they've been violent?

Yeah. It's the job of the police to use force on our behalf. Blocking your street would be an example of that.

[garbon]

So if police cordon off my street, they've been violent?

Yeah. It's the job of the police to use force on our behalf. Blocking your street would be an example of that.

Yeah no, that's not violence. Perhaps there is implied violence if I moved to walk down the street but at the moment that they are just cordoning, not at all.

[MadImmortalMan]

Yeah no, that's not violence. Perhaps there is implied violence if I moved to walk down the street but at the moment that they are just cordoning, not at all.

That's why I asked if there is such a thing as non-violent force. Your answer would be yes. I assume.