Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

[garbon]

Yeah no, that's not violence. Perhaps there is implied violence if I moved to walk down the street but at the moment that they are just cordoning, not at all.

That's why I asked if there is such a thing as non-violent force. Your answer would be yes. I assume.

I would say it is a mistake to say violence = force. There's a reason they are different words.

[MadImmortalMan]

I would say it is a mistake to say violence = force. There's a reason they are different words.

I think so too. I was confused by the synonym link there. It's too tenuous.

I guess my main thing is that my worldview says to never harm another human being outside of self-defense. Some people seem to be advocating that it's ok to harm others as long as it's not physically hitting them.

[garbon]

I would say it is a mistake to say violence = force. There's a reason they are different words.

I think so too. I was confused by the synonym link there. It's too tenuous.

I guess my main thing is that my worldview says to never harm another human being outside of self-defense. Some people seem to be advocating that it's ok to harm others as long as it's not physically hitting them.

Not being able to drive down a street seems like an inconvenience, not harm. Else parades and movie sets harm me on the regular.

[grumbler]

I guess my main thing is that my worldview says to never harm another human being outside of self-defense. Some people seem to be advocating that it's ok to harm others as long as it's not physically hitting them.

It is okay to harm some people if the motives are right (e.g. if a reasonable person would agree to be harmed if they were fully informed of the benefit).  I am harmed by laws against jaywalking.  And yet, i accept the harm because i am aware of the benefits such harms brings in general (it doesn't prevent me from being hit, but it might save others).  I can be harmed by the exercise of eminent domain to expand the road outside my house, and yet a reasonable person would agree that the harm inflicted was justified by the overall benefits gained.

[Monoriu]

The Chief Executive said in front of camera directly that he will not resign.  People's Daily says the central government will not move an inch on HK's electoral system.  Basically, that's a direct rejection of the two key demands of the rioters.

The rioters have dropped their demand that the Chief Executive must resign before any dialogue.  The #2 official in the HK government will therefore meet with student representatives. 

[alfred russel]

No idea where you get the notion of a Cantonese Shanghai 

Shanghai is a leading global city in the world under the control of the PRC.

[Razgovory]

Mono isn't a communist.  His philosophy is simply "Well I'm on board, haul up the lifeboats".  You know, like a libertarian.  Just replace "libertarian" with "commie" and the sentence makes sense.

Yes, libertarians love authoritarian governments.  IIRC from another discussion, they are closet fascists or something.

If it means preserving free markets and preventing extensive welfare states.  I remember Hans posting a National Review OP Ed on Hong Kong decrying the democracy movement since democracy would lead to the erosion of free market principles.

[crazy canuck]

IDK, I don't really get it. I mean, what would you guys consider it wrong to obstruct. What if a crowd blocked your house so you couldn't enter/exit? What if they blocked your kid from returning home from school? What if people thought you were too fat so they blocked your refrigerator? How about peacefully blocking the roads and rails so no food could enter a city, would that be acceptable?

I have a really sharp conscience when it comes to inconveniencing others, I will admit. So maybe I'm not really on the same page.

Whether it is "wrong" is a separate question from whether it is violent.  If people were restricted to protesting in a manner that never inconvenienced anyone then there really couldnt be such a thing as non violent civil disobedience.  And without that the chances of violence would likely be much greater.

[Monoriu]

No idea where you get the notion of a Cantonese Shanghai 

Shanghai is a leading global city in the world under the control of the PRC.

I am aware of that, just don't know where the "Cantonese" fits in all this 

[Monoriu]

BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations.  This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.

[CountDeMoney]

BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations.  This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.

Don't worry, they won't roll in the tanks unless it embarrasses the CCP to a point they won't tolerate.  Until then, it'll stay with the cops.

[Savonarola]

BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations.  This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.

Mono's tired of all this bullshit
They keep selling him on T.V.
About the Chi-communist plan
But now the Hong Kong dollar rules everybody's lives
Gotta make a million doesn't matter who dies
Umbrella Revolution calling

[Monoriu]

BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations.  This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.

Don't worry, they won't roll in the tanks unless it embarrasses the CCP to a point they won't tolerate.  Until then, it'll stay with the cops.

I think the chance of Beijing intervening and sending troops is real, and is increasing.  The possibility of them using tanks is almost non-existant though.  The reason they had to use tanks in 1989 was because they had nothing else.  They have learned the lesson and have trained and equipped armed police in the use of non-lethal force.  Actually, this increases the chance of them coming, because the consequences are less dire.  I imagine that tanks will only be used in a demonstration role.

[CountDeMoney]

BTW, thank you very much for labelling this as the umbrella "revolution", and all the sympathy demonstrations.  This just strengthens Beijing's idea that this is a colour revolution intended to make HK independent, and that foreign elements are behind.

Mono's tired of all this bullshit
They keep selling him on T.V.
About the Chi-communist plan
But now the Hong Kong dollar rules everybody's lives
Gotta make a million doesn't matter who dies
Revolution calling

LOL, Operation: Hivecrime

[Tonitrus]

While I support and sympathize with the protesters, Mono is kinda right.  The two realistic outcomes of all this is either:

- No change
- The one nation/two systems idea goes to the wall, and China dumps ther special status.


There really is no down side for China to go with option 2 (outside some economic turmoil in HK and elsewhere), and no one in the international community will do anything about it except express some mild regret.