Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

[The Brain]

Unless I'm mistaken, Hong Kong has a free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly.

Are any of those a system of governance?

Don't confuse him.

When people here encounter a text, do they actually read it or do they just look at the pretty symbols? Yi wrote "There are.", which obviously refers to ways the majority has to voice their opinion.

[frunk]

When people here encounter a text, do they actually read it or do they just look at the pretty symbols? Yi wrote "There are.", which obviously refers to ways the majority has to voice their opinion.

Voicing an opinion doesn't matter much if no one is listening.

[Jacob]

When people here encounter a text, do they actually read it or do they just look at the pretty symbols? Yi wrote "There are.", which obviously refers to ways the majority has to voice their opinion.

Yet we were speaking of governance.

[Admiral Yi]

I thought we were talking about systems of governance in which the majority have a way to express their opinion.

At least I was.  And Jacob was at one point too.

[frunk]

I thought we were talking about systems of governance in which the majority have a way to express their opinion.

At least I was.  And Jacob was at one point too.

Free speech would be an example of the people expressing their opinion within the system of governance if it was somehow made binding in how the government operated.  There's a difference between how the government works and what the government allows.

[Jacob]

I thought we were talking about systems of governance in which the majority have a way to express their opinion.

At least I was.  And Jacob was at one point too.

I am. "Free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly" do not constitute a system of governance; they are rights that you may, or may not, be able to exercise under any given system.

You were decrying how a (presumed) minority is imposing their desires on a (presumed) majority through protests. I was suggesting, perhaps too obliquely, that under a democratic system the (presumed) minority would have alternate means of influencing the direction of their polity without resorting to protests.

[Admiral Yi]

I am. "Free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of peaceful assembly" do not constitute a system of governance; they are rights that you may, or may not, be able to exercise under any given system.

You were decrying how a (presumed) minority is imposing their desires on a (presumed) majority through protests. I was suggesting, perhaps too obliquely, that under a democratic system the (presumed) minority would have alternate means of influencing the direction of their polity without resorting to protests.

I would be willing to right this whole thing off as a tiresome semantic misunderstanding except you don't seem to understand how "a system of government in which people can express their opinions" can be reasonably interpreted as a system of governance which allows people to express their opinions.

It's debateable how much a minority can influence policy in truly democratic systems.  Most democratic systems observe majority rule.  The US system is different in that the division of powers allows organized minorities to block action if they control one or more levers of power.  The times when that happens tend not to be celebrated here on Languish.

No one disputes that the Hong Kong political system is constructed in such a way as to severely limit the ability of the people to decide their own fate.  If I were a resident of Hong Kong I would resent that very much.  Then the question is what to do about it.  I think we all agree that under the present arrangement they are free to bitch about it. 

However the present demonstrators are bitching about it in a way that (a) imposes hardships on a large number of people, and (b) at least in some people's minds raises the possibility of Beijing sending in the tanks and limiting even further civic freedoms in Hong Kong.  A lot of folks in this thread are treating it as a good vs. evil situation, whereas i think it's much more gray.  The demonstrators are: well-intentioned, naive, and selfish.

[DGuller]

There is also a third possible result:  the protests are doomed to fail, but at the same time their existence will give Beijing pause next time they try to whittle away HK's autonomy.  Protests don't always have to succeed to succeed.

[Admiral Yi]

There is also a third possible result:  the protests are doomed to fail, but at the same time their existence will give Beijing pause next time they try to whittle away HK's autonomy.  Protests don't always have to succeed to succeed.

Next time?  Has Beijing recently whittled away their autonomy?  I thought they were operating under the system that obtained when the British left.

[mongers]

Infighting has broken out among the rioters.  Faced with an impending government deadline to ensure that government HQs is open for Monday tomorrow, some want to retreat and regroup, while others want to take a hard line.  Tons of conflicting news on whether they will withdraw or not.  Different factions blame each other for betrayal. 

I have no idea what will happen tonight.  The only thing I am certain, is that I will go to work tomorrow.  Or at least, try to.  I am beginning to worry about the personal safety of my wife and I.  Did anybody die when the Reichstag was burnt down in the thirties?  We work inside the largest and most prominent symbol of HK government's power.  I will check the fire evacuation route tomorrow.  I used to never bother with these things.

Interesting you should mention the Reichstag fire, because what if the HK government building catches fire tomorrow, with you and other civil servants in it?

Whoever might start it, one things for sure, Beijing would use the opportunity to crush all opposition, possibly invoke direct rule, suspend HK democratic and legal institutions, reasserting authority at a difficult time.

Then it wouldn't matter who started it, 'rioters', accident, military or a false-flag affair, the outcome would be the opportunity given to the forces of oppression.
Maybe China would dub it, 'its 9/11'. Perhaps in their calculus the lives of a few hundred middle ranking official wouldn't figure very highly?

Mono, maybe it's a not a very good idea to go to work tomorrow?

[Jacob]

A lot of folks in this thread are treating it as a good vs. evil situation, whereas i think it's much more gray.

Semantic quibbling and languish posturing aside, I agree that it is not black vs white. I know plenty of good people in HK who have misgivings about the demonstrators.

The demonstrators are: well-intentioned, naive, and selfish.

The first two, yes; but that in no way undermines their cause in my view; cynical pragmatism is not always the best attitude if you're looking to alter fundamental political realities.

As for the third, no more selfish than MLK civil right marchers or Gandhi marchers or suffragettes or any other mass movement looking to alter the status quo in the face of inadequate democratic mechanisms.

[Jacob]

Next time?  Has Beijing recently whittled away their autonomy?  I thought they were operating under the system that obtained when the British left.

Many of the people who took to the street recently did so to protest a "patriotic curriculum" being imposed from Beijing, successfully in fact.

Whether Beijing is determinedly whittling away autonomy or staying as hands off as possible, and to what degree rousing popular intransigence in Hong Kong matters is probably a matter of perspective.

[chipwich]

The Bureaucracy as the last moneymaking sector? Those same bureaucrats doing whatever it takes to remain in power? Blue turbans vs Yellow turbans?

Looks like someone lost the Mandate of Heaven.

[Josquius]

There hasn't been much reported on how this is going over with the mainland Chinese. Obviously the government won't be reporting it to them I expect, but I would be very surprised if the news wasn't getting through anyway

[Monoriu]

Mono, maybe it's a not a very good idea to go to work tomorrow?

I am leaving for work *now* and your effort to help destabilise the regime has failed