Dispatches from the State Ministry of Truth

[Jacob]

Article on the behaviour of the protestors: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29423147

They're doing things like: doing their homework, picking up the trash, respecting "stay off the grass" signs, putting up signs apologizing for the inconvenience of the barricades they put up.

[Zanza]

So? What the CCP wants more than anything else is stability. If they look back in the 2040s and see that they had 45 years of one country, two systems and it worked, they'll not start massive changes all of a sudden.

[Monoriu]

For me, democracy is a means toward an end.  Democracy is a good way to ensure good governance, freedom, rule of law, etc.  But HK is a special case because we already have all those things without democracy. 

You had them but the white paper represents an attack on those things.  In this respect, both the protestors (who are focusing on the high profile issue of chief executive elections) and their opponents are missing the point.   The White Paper is fundamentally inconsistent with the notion of a neutral and independent judiciary; it categorizes judges or judicial officers as "administrators" akin to members of executive council and states that "patriotism" is the "basic political requirement" for such officers.  The White Paper also trumpets Beijing's power to interpret the Basic Law without mentioning the HK judiciary's concurrent powers in that regard.   There are two possibilities here: either Beijing is deliberately setting out to undermine the principles of rule of law in the territory, or the PRC functionaries that drafted the paper simply don't understand at the most fundamental level what the rule of law is and this don't see the problem.  I suspect the latter which in some ways is more disturbing.

The latent flaw in One Country, Two Systems was always that one of those Systems has both de jure and de facto supremacy.  So the viability of System 2 is not only based on sufferance and restraint from System 1,  but also the capacity of System 1 to understand what is actually entailed in System 2.

The anti-protestor line that the protests are misguided and counter-productive may have merit, but if not that, then what should the response be?  Because as I see it, doing nothing is not an option if HK wants to keep its political acquis

The communists don't get the idea of an independent judiciary at all.  They think they have an independent judiciary too.  They consider it just a front to fool people, and they think we are the same.  In their minds, our judges are all agents of the British/US to subvert HK/China, and that's why they keep ruling against the HK government on various issues. 

So far they haven't done anything though.  I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper. 

[Monoriu]

So? What the CCP wants more than anything else is stability. If they look back in the 2040s and see that they had 45 years of one country, two systems and it worked, they'll not start massive changes all of a sudden.

The 2047 thing mainly applies to the "capitalist" system of HK, meaning that we can have private property, especially on land.  On the Mainland, all land belongs to "the people".

[frunk]

So far they haven't done anything though.  I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper.

Under what conditions would it be an appropriate response to be occupying the streets?  I'm assuming if they went after your pension you would be rioting in short order.

[Monoriu]

So far the government has defiantly refused to meet with the rioters.  There will be no negotiations and no backing downs.  The Chief Executive says that he expects this to be a drawn out affair.  I think the strategy is to Stalingrad them.  They want the roads, they can keep them.  But there will be no negotiations and no possibility of a political settlement either. 

The rioters pick this week for a reason.  Out of 9 days, there are only 3 working days.  So a lot of people take leave with or without the riots anyway.  But what will happen after that?  The rioters are getting desperate and keep giving the HK government deadlines to respond/negotiate, which have all been completely ignored.  After these 9 days, pressure on the rioters will mount as many people's livelihoods are on the line.  Taxi drivers, minibus drivers, small businesses, and workers relying on sales commissions will complain.  There are already an increasing no. of incidents - shouting matches, eggs were thrown at the rioters, etc.  The government keeps saying that if they keep this up, emergency services (fire, rescue, ambulances) will be affected too. 

The possibility of the worst case scenario is increasing - the central government may intervene at any moment.  At any rate, I think Beijing has already taken over in all decision making on what to do next, since this has esculated to become an international problem.  The worst case scenario is that they will declare a state of emergency and take over temporarily.  Send armed police to clear the streets with rubber bullets.  Disband Legco, and form a temporary one with loyalists (happened during the takeover).  Pass the new election rules, pass the national security legislation (withdrawn after huge protests in 2003), change the Legco rules and procedures to ensure no filibustering in the future, weaken Legco's powers.  Arrest the riot leaders and imprison them on the mainland.  After a month or two, hand the local administration back to the same HK government. 

[Monoriu]

So far they haven't done anything though.  I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper.

Under what conditions would it be an appropriate response to be occupying the streets?  I'm assuming if they went after your pension you would be rioting in short order.

It is not appropriate to take the streets under any circumstances. I think civil service pay and benefits are even more secure after these incidents

[mongers]

Monos don't get the idea of independent protest at all.  They think they have an independent judiciary too.  They consider it just a front to fool people, and they think we are the same.  In their minds, our judges are all agents of the British/US to subvert HK/China, and that's why they keep ruling against the HK government on various issues. 

So far they haven't done anything though.  I just don't think occupying streets is the appropriate response to the white paper.

And whilst you're at it can you explain the difference between rioters and protesters/demonstrators, because you appear to treat them as synonyms.

[Monoriu]

And whilst you're at it can you explain the difference between rioters and protesters/demonstrators, because you appear to treat them as synonyms.

Protesters obtain police approval, and don't occupy roads for more than a few hours when the marches/gatherings are over.  Rioters occupy roads, fight the police, try to cross police codron lines, attack government buildings, prevent other road users from using public infrastructure, blackmail the public and government and say that unless their impossible demands are met, they won't leave.  They are rioters and I won't change my mind. 

[mongers]

And whilst you're at it can you explain the difference between rioters and protesters/demonstrators, because you appear to treat them as synonyms.

Protesters obtain police approval, and don't occupy roads for more than a few hours when the marches/gatherings are over.  Rioters occupy roads, fight the police, try to cross police codron lines, attack government buildings, prevent other road users from using public infrastructure, blackmail the public and government and say that unless their impossible demands are met, they won't leave.  They are rioters and I won't change my mind.

You seem to be a blind to this distinction as the CCP apparatchiks you've criticised above.

Mono, if there is an near inevitable crackdown on these peaceful protesters, then please show some residual decency and don't come here crowing about it.

[Monoriu]

You seem to be a blind to this distinction as the CCP apparatchiks you've criticised above.

Mono, if there is an near inevitable crackdown on these peaceful protesters, then please show some residual decency and don't come here crowing about it.

I am afraid that you'll have to stop reading them instead

[Ed Anger]

I'll join mono in crowing about it. MY YELLOW BROTHER

[The Minsky Moment]

The communists don't get the idea of an independent judiciary at all.  They think they have an independent judiciary too.  They consider it just a front to fool people, and they think we are the same.  In their minds, our judges are all agents of the British/US to subvert HK/China, and that's why they keep ruling against the HK government on various issues. 

So far they haven't done anything though.

Of course not, if they did it now it would unite the pro-democracy crowd with pro-business types.  Instead they play divide and conquer, isolate and the  knock off democratic activists and leave the rest you to stand alone when the next move comes.

[Monoriu]

The communists don't get the idea of an independent judiciary at all.  They think they have an independent judiciary too.  They consider it just a front to fool people, and they think we are the same.  In their minds, our judges are all agents of the British/US to subvert HK/China, and that's why they keep ruling against the HK government on various issues. 

So far they haven't done anything though.

Of course not, if they did it now it would unite the pro-democracy crowd with pro-business types.  Instead they play divide and conquer, isolate and the  knock off democratic activists and leave the rest you to stand alone when the next move comes.

To be fair to Beijing, it is the democratic activists who want to pick fights.  They are the ones who are unhappy with the status quo and want to shake things up. 

[DontSayBanana]

I am afraid that you'll have to stop reading them instead

Ugh.  Can't one of the mods give this guy a "break" until the protesters break up or are broken up?

Mono, you do realize you've successfully pissed off a significant portion of the forum, right?  We joke a lot, but at some level, we at least respect that people can have problems with the government and have the right to "shake things up" to get those problems redressed.  Your inability to think past your own wallet is pretty disgusting.  Hell, you even talk about the protests ending in terms of wage shortfalls.

I know this is going to shock you, but there are people to whom having a working government means more than having a steady paycheck.  Crowing that eventually the army's going to crack down on these people for (mostly) peacefully insisting that their problems are addressed?  Stay classy, Mono.