As much as I hate Orban in Hungary for appealing to the lowest of instincts by doing his despicable anti-immigrant propaganda drive, you have to admit that the move was genius: the writing is on the wall: refugees are flocking and will continue to flow toward the EU for the foreseeable future.
This way, he is positioning his party in a timely fashion over the side of xenophobia and isolationism, that is surely to be preferred by a vast majority of Hungarians, all the while forcing his opposition to take side against these.
Anyways, the problem is not Hungarian only, however. In fact, it is NOT a problem in Hungary yet, period. But take Italy, which is getting insane number of refugees and the EU answers by tightening French border controls. No wonder they are pissed:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/15/we-will-hurt-eu-if-migrant-crisis-is-not-fixed-says-italian-pm-matteo-renzi (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/15/we-will-hurt-eu-if-migrant-crisis-is-not-fixed-says-italian-pm-matteo-renzi)
The Dublin Agreement which forces entrance countries to deal with the migrants/refugees is highly unfair and a totally selfish take by the western countries of the EU.
I think this is going to be a huge issue in the years to come, and it will be an extreme strain on the EU as a whole, because it will be showing all too obviously how the EU is not a real community of nations.
Why are people streaming to the EU? It is not like there are tons of jobs there.
Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 11:29:54 AM
Why are people streaming to the EU? It is not like there are tons of jobs there.
They are coming from Libya (and from countries which used to migrate TO Libya), Syria, and Afghanistan mostly. More questions? :P
I mean, France is showing Italy the finger, Austria is turning to the far right again on the danger of seeing a brown person, and Northern Italy wants nothing to do with handling the 200k+ refugees in Southern Italy.
It is sickening.
Also, check things like this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syyl0gfNDRE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syyl0gfNDRE) A Hungarian truck driver was arrested in the UK for having 51 migrants on board. with that large of a number, he is probably guilty, but what if they climb in to a poor guys truck like that?
Also apparently around Calais they sometimes build roadblocks for force-stop the trucks:
//indavideo.hu/video/Igy_tamadjak_a_kamionokat_a_menekultek_Calais-ban (http://languish.org//indavideo.hu/video/Igy_tamadjak_a_kamionokat_a_menekultek_Calais-ban)
I kind of get their desperation, but this needs to be handled on a EU level to disperse the pressure otherwise in due course it will endanger the EU itself (as far as the actual common union goes).
Is it only directed against brown people? Europeans usually reserve their greatest horror for white people who live slightly further east and/or south than they do.
In a rather surprising development - especially when you consider the stance of Germany about two decades ago - Germany is officially welcoming the refugees and now wants to change laws so that Asylum seekers are allowed to work almost immediately. We also currently give close to 100% of Syrians that come here asylum. For once, Germany is not xenophobic. :)
It is a humanitarian disaster. I think we have a moral duty to help. We continental Europeans barely got out of our last batch of bad karma for turning a blind eye to an entire ethnic group being wiped out under our very noses - we should not do it again.
Quote from: Zanza on June 15, 2015, 12:04:34 PM
In a rather surprising development - especially when you consider the stance of Germany about two decades ago - Germany is officially welcoming the refugees and now wants to change laws so that Asylum seekers are allowed to work almost immediately. We also currently give close to 100% of Syrians that come here asylum. For once, Germany is not xenophobic. :)
:cheers:
I actually have to qualify that statement. Our asshole interior minister has kept the G7 border controls in Southern Germany in place to block asylum seekers from Italy for the time being. That said, we expect about 400.000-500.000 asylum seekers in Germany this year. That's a rather substantial number and strains the municipalities that have to provide shelter for all of them.
Speaking of which, I was recently travelling to Warsaw from Athens through the Frankfurt airport and was surprised when we were asked to show our IDs to the police/airport guard when leaving the plane. It wasn't formal - I just flashed my ID to a guard and was not even stopped but it was a bit strange. Is Germany ignoring Schengen?
Just out of curiosity when do immigration controls become xenophobic? Is there a line you shouldn't cross?
Austria's minster of the interior has basically put all asylum proceedings on hold to "clear out backlog". Lots of push back against taking on more people coming from the rural areas of Austria (i.e. everywhere except Vienna). Vienna is taking on more asylum seekers than they should per the national quote system, but in a city where 50% of the people have an immigration background, it's easier to push through.
I was thinking about this just yesterday and I am increasingly behind the proposal to institute quotas and share migrants around the EU.
It could really solve several problems at once- stops a few countries taking all of the burden, helps the east get over their manpower troubles, and helps the migrants.
Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 11:29:54 AM
Why are people streaming to the EU? It is not like there are tons of jobs there.
IMO this type of fundamental world view update takes a long time to sink in.
See- people still thinking Japan is some kind of high tech 1980s wonder land, it is still the 1990s in Russia/Eastern Europe, Africa is perpetually '85 Ethiopia.
Consider these are guys coming from remote villages where all they see of Europe is big budget movies and premier league football. And all those stories of that one guy who made it big and built a mansion in his home village (those who didn't? Meh, they must be so happy in Europe they didn't even bother to come home).
There is a pretty good BBC or channel 4 documentary (can't remember at all, anyone?) about Asian migrants in the UK that gives a good insight into why they came and the misconceptions they had.
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 12:12:46 PM
Speaking of which, I was recently travelling to Warsaw from Athens through the Frankfurt airport and was surprised when we were asked to show our IDs to the police/airport guard when leaving the plane. It wasn't formal - I just flashed my ID to a guard and was not even stopped but it was a bit strange. Is Germany ignoring Schengen?
No idea. I can't remember ever being checked when I arrived from another Schengen country. Was your trip during the G7 summit? They had lots of silly extra security measures in place for that.
Also, it's the closest liberal non-shithole available.
Still, there's plenty movements going on that don't even reach Europe. E.g. there's substantial amounts of Syrian refugees in countries bordering Syria.
Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 12:13:29 PM
Just out of curiosity when do immigration controls become xenophobic? Is there a line you shouldn't cross?
Immigration controls are not xenophobic per se. Not taking in refugees - which is not the same as immigrants - is xenophobic as you ignore the plight of humans in need to help because they are foreigners.
Deciding you will only take 200,000 refugees instead of 400,000 does not strike me as xenophobic. I mean it is not like your country is the only place in the world they can get asylum in. But clearly at some point, like taking zero, it would be. Just wondering what line that would be.
Quote from: Syt on June 15, 2015, 12:19:08 PM
Also, it's the closest liberal non-shithole available.
Still, there's plenty movements going on that don't even reach Europe. E.g. there's substantial amounts of Syrian refugees in countries bordering Syria.
Syrians in other Arab countries or Turkey are typically stateless, rightless and powerless whereas they are recognized as refugees in Europe and can eventually get out of refugee camps and get on with their lives. If you look at the sorry state of Palestinian refugees that have in some cases stayed in camps as second-class citizens for generations already, it's not hard to see why Syrians don't want to go to other Arab countries.
Yeah I get the strategic reason for leaving Palestinians like that but why Syrians?
Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 12:24:56 PM
Deciding you will only take 200,000 refugees instead of 400,000 does not strike me as xenophobic. I mean it is not like your country is the only place in the world they can get asylum in. But clearly at some point, like taking zero, it would be. Just wondering what line that would be.
If you set a limit it's racism.
Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 12:26:03 PM
Yeah I get the strategic reason for leaving Palestinians like that but why Syrians?
Because the general stance of the population and the country's economic capabilities are even worse than in Europe?
I am glad to hear Germany is leading the way on this.
I think it is absolutely crucial to be pragmatic about this, on an EU level, and that means both sheltering these people, and doing it with the load balanced across the EU, because when it will go bigger (and bound to once the Saudis and Iranians go head to head, for example), the current border states (Greece, Italy, and yes, Hungary, as the eastern gateway to the "proper west") will NOT be able to cope with it. Not economically (although thats fairly easy to help), but especially culturally.
Because Hungary is "the EU state most affected by illegal immigration" (I shit you not they had the nerves to say that) the government just announced they will be building a 4 meters tall fence on the Serbian border.
:lol:
Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2015, 06:05:59 AM
Because Hungary is "the EU state most affected by illegal immigration" (I shit you not they had the nerves to say that) the government just announced they will be building a 4 meters tall fence on the Serbian border.
Serbs are going to invade Hungary with their Gypsies or what?
:lol:
What's the Hungarian Calais ? Hungarian Vintimille/Ventimiglia ? Hungarian Mediterranean and so on...
Well it is true that Syrians and Kosovoians (?) are coming from that direction.
So after 700 square kilometers of fence, they will have to take a minor detour to the Croatian or the Romanian borders. Or cut through the unguarded fence somewhere. Money well spent.
I wonder how much time until a serious incident:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5FIsmquQqA
Angry frustrated truck drivers vs. desperate knives-armed immigrants.
Serious incidents already happened. Even between "refugees". The latest serious incident recorded was in the Med though.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32337725 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32337725)
QuoteItalian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.
In a separate incident, more than 40 people drowned after another migrant boat sank between Libya and Italy.
Almost 10,000 migrants trying to cross the Mediterranean have been rescued in recent days. Italy has called for more help from the EU to handle the crisis.
More than 500 people from Africa and the Middle East have died making the perilous crossing since the start of the year. Earlier this week, 400 people were believed to have drowned when their boat capsized.
'In tears'
null
Many migrants picked up by the Italian navy in recent days have been brought ashore to Sicily
The 15 Muslim migrants involved in the row with Christians were arrested in the Sicilian city of Palermo and charged with "multiple aggravated murder motivated by religious hate".
The suspects, who are from the Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali and Guinea, were among 105 migrants travelling in an inflatable boat that left Libya on Tuesday.
Eyewitnesses told police how the altercation resulted in Christians being thrown overboard, and that some of the survivors had formed human chains to avoid a similar fate.
Lovely people to receive...
Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 12:13:29 PM
Just out of curiosity when do immigration controls become xenophobic? Is there a line you shouldn't cross?
Was it addressed to anyone specifically? :P
Quote from: Zanza on June 15, 2015, 12:18:55 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 12:12:46 PM
Speaking of which, I was recently travelling to Warsaw from Athens through the Frankfurt airport and was surprised when we were asked to show our IDs to the police/airport guard when leaving the plane. It wasn't formal - I just flashed my ID to a guard and was not even stopped but it was a bit strange. Is Germany ignoring Schengen?
No idea. I can't remember ever being checked when I arrived from another Schengen country. Was your trip during the G7 summit? They had lots of silly extra security measures in place for that.
Was that on 4 June?
Quote from: Martinus on June 17, 2015, 09:28:32 AM
Was it addressed to anyone specifically? :P
Um if it was wouldn't I have addressed somebody directly? :unsure:
I guess I missed the joke here.
Athens to Warsaw and they made you go through Frankfurt? Seems rather out of the way.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 17, 2015, 09:36:25 AM
Athens to Warsaw and they made you go through Frankfurt? Seems rather out of the way.
Very few direct flights (I think one per day at some inconvenient hour) and Frankfurt is a regional hub.
Yeah it is like how I used to have to stop in Dallas to fly to Mexico. You know how those Airline hubs are.
Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2015, 06:19:05 AM
Money well spent.
Depends on perspective. Government spends 2 billion euro on the fence. Contractors are mysteriously friends and relatives of the government, and build the fence with actual costs of 50 million euro.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 17, 2015, 09:52:28 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2015, 06:19:05 AM
Money well spent.
Depends on perspective. Government spends 2 billion euro on the fence. Contractors are mysteriously friends and relatives of the government, and build the fence with actual costs of 50 million euro.
Well, that's a given. In most countries I assume, but especially in Hungary.
A beet wall. Should be soft and squishy to run through.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 17, 2015, 01:03:16 PM
A beet wall. Should be soft and squishy to run through.
In front of it will be a moat filled with goulash.
Quote from: Valmy on June 17, 2015, 01:04:30 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 17, 2015, 01:03:16 PM
A beet wall. Should be soft and squishy to run through.
In front of it will be a moat filled with goulash.
A delicious addition.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 17, 2015, 07:46:39 AM
Serious incidents already happened. Even between "refugees". The latest serious incident recorded was in the Med though.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32337725 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32337725)
QuoteItalian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.
In a separate incident, more than 40 people drowned after another migrant boat sank between Libya and Italy.
Almost 10,000 migrants trying to cross the Mediterranean have been rescued in recent days. Italy has called for more help from the EU to handle the crisis.
More than 500 people from Africa and the Middle East have died making the perilous crossing since the start of the year. Earlier this week, 400 people were believed to have drowned when their boat capsized.
'In tears'
null
Many migrants picked up by the Italian navy in recent days have been brought ashore to Sicily
The 15 Muslim migrants involved in the row with Christians were arrested in the Sicilian city of Palermo and charged with "multiple aggravated murder motivated by religious hate".
The suspects, who are from the Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali and Guinea, were among 105 migrants travelling in an inflatable boat that left Libya on Tuesday.
Eyewitnesses told police how the altercation resulted in Christians being thrown overboard, and that some of the survivors had formed human chains to avoid a similar fate.
Lovely people to receive...
which is why don't need more. There's sufficient other groups that are less problematic
The great Wall of HUNGARY. No scribes allowed. ;)
Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2015, 06:05:59 AM
Because Hungary is "the EU state most affected by illegal immigration" (I shit you not they had the nerves to say that) the government just announced they will be building a 4 meters tall fence on the Serbian border.
In that case the Hungarian government should be totally willing to support the plan to share the refugees around right? :)
I read a BBC article about the Hungarian border town where Kosovar inmigrants cross the border with Serbia, and apparently there are no border guards there, just three nature rangers or something. One would think that putting a few border guards would be much cheaper than building a huge fence all over the border.
That would involve finding a few Hungarians willing to work though :contract:
A German news article says that Hungary does, in fact, have the second highest rate of new asylum seekers per pop. coming into EU.
However, more than 80% of them then travel on westwards to less shitty countries.
Quote from: Valmy on June 17, 2015, 01:04:30 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 17, 2015, 01:03:16 PM
A beet wall. Should be soft and squishy to run through.
In front of it will be a moat filled with goulash.
Anyone brave enough to cross the goulash moat and the beet wall would then be accosted by a herd of tickling goats.
Quote from: Tyr on June 18, 2015, 05:08:47 PM
That would involve finding a few Hungarians willing to work though :contract:
I know some of them, but they live in England now :P
Quote from: Martinus on June 19, 2015, 02:22:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 17, 2015, 01:04:30 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 17, 2015, 01:03:16 PM
A beet wall. Should be soft and squishy to run through.
In front of it will be a moat filled with goulash.
Anyone brave enough to cross the goulash moat and the beet wall would then be accosted by a herd of tickling goats.
Don't try to entice The Brain to become an immigrant.
Really hope there's some progress on the assylum seeker pooling thing. It would be best for all concerned.
Everyone gets a quota of assylum seekers based on some calculation of population, GDP, GDP per capita, etc... and a quota of funding/subsidies based on a similar calculation.
If a nation wants to take less then it has to put up some decent money and find a willing nation to take them on instead, if they want to take more then that can be arranged.
The process is humanised a little for the asylum seekers, assigning them points towards each nation based on language knowledge, whether they have relatives elsewhere already, etc... as best as possible they'll try to place the French speakers in latin language countries and that sort of thing.
If they get placed in Bulgaria but bitch and moan about wanting to be in Sweden and leave the country to try and get there then they're illegals, and they won't have any support as they would in the country they're placed in.
I saw a movie about assylum once. Or it may have been more than once.
Why must they take them at all? There's already too many foreigners that can't or won't be assimilated in Europe. The net result of this 'generosity' will most likely bring Europe one step closer to the shit holes these asylum seekers have fled. Bah! :yucky:
G.
Quote from: Grallon on June 20, 2015, 11:00:47 AM
Why must they take them at all? There's already too many foreigners that can't or won't be assimilated in Europe. The net result of this 'generosity' will most likely bring Europe one step closer to the shit holes these asylum seekers have fled. Bah! :yucky:
G.
While this is something of a concern to many, Syrians aren't Somalis.
I notice the right wing is banging on about us getting 8000 ISIS soldiers. Because, naturally, fleeing from ISIS makes you one of them.
What really is unfair is the burden placed on already hard-pressed countries like Italy, Spain and Greece. I have a feeling Orban's fence won't be the first one we see in Festung Europa.
I have to agree with Grallon, send them back. The reason why so many take the risks to come to Europe is because they know if they actually get there, they'll be able to stay in and be provided for indefinitely.
You want to send Syrians back to Syria?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2015, 09:58:26 PM
You want to send Syrians back to Syria?
Obviously.
Preferably after the war is over.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 20, 2015, 09:58:26 PM
You want to send Syrians back to Syria?
Well, it wouldn't make much sense to send Serbians to Syria. And you couldn't refer to it as sending them "back", either.
:)
It is kind of back... Just... Really half arsed.
I don't think they would mind being sent to Serbia actually.
The Serbs probably wouldn't be best pleased.
New poll in Austria: "Which party has the correct views and solutions regarding asylum seekers?"
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.profil.at%2F_storage%2Fasset%2F5711902%2Fstorage%2Fvgnat%3Atwocolumn_930%3Ax%2Ffile%2F81487693%2F45779854.jpg&hash=30640e6b7b6dc92e88d728051604476193e88289)
:yes: The FPÖ is politically correct.
When are you going to help them kick those dirty foreigners out of Mother Austria Syt?
Hungary has stopped taking back refugees it's responsible for after the so called "Dublin III" rules which basically state that the country where an asylum seeker first arrives is responsible for handling those refugees and process their requests for asylum.
The stoppage is effective immediately "due to technical reasons" and without time limit. Hungarian press secretary has said "the boat is full," and that the government had to protect Hungarian interests.
The EU Commission has asked for immediate explanation.
Austrian DiePresse ran a quick calculation to compare how many refugees each country would have to take if distribution was based on population, and how many they actually host and expressed that "fulfillment" in a map:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiepresse.com%2Fimages%2Fuploads_580%2Fa%2F7%2F4%2F4713076%2F20-s02-EU-Asylquote-nach-Einwohnerzahl-GK_1429548146179368.jpg&hash=c31bbc740f9793e590b815dbd1640671326efd97)
How odd. Why so many in Hungary? :blink:
and surprising so few for the south
Quote from: Tyr on June 23, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
How odd. Why so many in Hungary? :blink:
Maybe ethnic Hungarians from former Yugoslavia? Only possible explanation I can think of.
I am sure Orban wouldn't mind ethnic Hungarians arriving.
Ìt's probably because the Hungary/Serbia border is easily accessible and not well guarded. And if you made it to Hungary, you are much closer to your actual target in Western Europe than you are in Bulgaria, Greece or Romania.
Sweden. :bleeding:
Quote from: Tyr on June 23, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
How odd. Why so many in Hungary? :blink:
and surprising so few for the south
If you're going to smuggle yourself, might as well go to a successful country.
Quote from: Syt on June 23, 2015, 03:54:47 PM
Austrian DiePresse ran a quick calculation to compare how many refugees each country would have to take if distribution was based on population, and how many they actually host and expressed that "fulfillment" in a map:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiepresse.com%2Fimages%2Fuploads_580%2Fa%2F7%2F4%2F4713076%2F20-s02-EU-Asylquote-nach-Einwohnerzahl-GK_1429548146179368.jpg&hash=c31bbc740f9793e590b815dbd1640671326efd97)
I don't really understand that map. As I read it Denmark would need to take twice as many as we do, but right now we're 4th on most refugees per capita in the EU.
EDIT: Or is it we're taking 203% of our share? And Portugal needs to take 33 times what they're doing now? Must be it.
Read again.
Other way around Liep. Right now you're already at 213% of quota.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2015, 05:36:02 PM
Other way around Liep. Right now you're already at 213% of quota.
Yep.
So you'll have to kick out half of them.
Quote from: The Brain on June 23, 2015, 05:43:12 PM
So you'll have to kick out half of them.
I believe that's exactly what our future government is planning.
How does Croatia become HR?
Hrvatska
Funky
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2015, 04:15:39 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 23, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
How odd. Why so many in Hungary? :blink:
Maybe ethnic Hungarians from former Yugoslavia? Only possible explanation I can think of.
That's really more of a lateral move.
The map basically just shows who takes the most refugees relative to population. If there was a proper quota system in place it should obviously also take into account the logistic situation in each country. E.g. Germany And Austria are better equipped to deal with boat loads of refugees than Romania and Croatia.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2015, 04:15:39 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 23, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
How odd. Why so many in Hungary? :blink:
Maybe ethnic Hungarians from former Yugoslavia? Only possible explanation I can think of.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fserbianna.com%2Fanalysis%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F06%2F75206627_europe_illegal_immigration_624map.gif&hash=3911d74a8e1c3b546b5f5b545f8526ead2011a87)
All that is missing are the D-Day landings.
Hold the Festung!
And the Hungarians have reversed their decision.
Quote from: Syt on June 24, 2015, 12:35:49 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2015, 04:15:39 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 23, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
How odd. Why so many in Hungary? :blink:
Maybe ethnic Hungarians from former Yugoslavia? Only possible explanation I can think of.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fserbianna.com%2Fanalysis%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F06%2F75_europe_illegal_immigration_624map.gif&hash=f537bc565677e24812e8f0683dde094fad1a13e2)
Serb fail.
But still seems odd.
Croatia is there too. And that the Yugoslav borders would be so easy... Greeks are letting them go?
Quote from: Tyr on June 24, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
Greeks are letting them go?
I think we can pretty safely assume that is the case.
Quote from: Liep on June 24, 2015, 09:30:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 24, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
Greeks are letting them go?
I think we can pretty safely assume that is the case.
This is the Greeks. They could be trying but falling foul of corruption or just plain failing
Quote from: Tyr on June 24, 2015, 09:33:54 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 24, 2015, 09:30:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on June 24, 2015, 09:27:11 AM
Greeks are letting them go?
I think we can pretty safely assume that is the case.
This is the Greeks. They could be trying but falling foul of corruption or just plain failing
True.
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 23, 2015, 04:44:22 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 23, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
How odd. Why so many in Hungary? :blink:
and surprising so few for the south
If you're going to smuggle yourself, might as well go to a successful country.
Again, why so many in Hungary? :lol:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 24, 2015, 01:54:13 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 23, 2015, 04:44:22 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 23, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
How odd. Why so many in Hungary? :blink:
and surprising so few for the south
If you're going to smuggle yourself, might as well go to a successful country.
Again, why so many in Hungary? :lol:
Still better than Kosovo, Iraq or Syria, I guess.
A lot of Kosovar (?) refugees ended up in Argentina-- during one of their financial crises. I remember looking at them and thinking man, you really fucked up coming here. Still a little better, I suppose.
Quote from: The Larch on June 24, 2015, 01:55:48 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 24, 2015, 01:54:13 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 23, 2015, 04:44:22 PM
Quote from: Tyr on June 23, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
How odd. Why so many in Hungary? :blink:
and surprising so few for the south
If you're going to smuggle yourself, might as well go to a successful country.
Again, why so many in Hungary? :lol:
Still better than Kosovo, Iraq or Syria, I guess.
Isn't Hungary a part of Schengen? Once you're in you're not going to meet a border until you're in Denmark or Sweden.
But if you're detected you have to stay in Hungary, a big risk. :P
Following the G7, Bavaria is intensifying its opst border controls. 1400 plainclothes cops will check travellers along the main entry roads from Czech Rep. and Austria. Their mandate is to verify the ID of anyone, with or without suspicion. Other border states are doing similar (and Bavaria has done this for years on smaller scale).
French police tries to keep immigrants from the highway in Calais. UK is apparently a more desirable destination.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIaZFAqUYAAtlWS.jpg)
Renzi: "If this is your idea of Europe you can keep it" after breakdowns in talks about asylum quotas.
Apparently 11k refugees/migrants arrived to Serbia just last month.
This is going to be an issue of huge proportions in a year or less, and it is too clearly showing how not a real community the EU is. It can tear the EU apart, you mark my words.
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 04:20:58 AM
Apparently 11k refugees/migrants arrived to Serbia just last month.
This is going to be an issue of huge proportions in a year or less, and it is too clearly showing how not a real community the EU is. It can tear the EU apart, you mark my words.
It's very obvious that many countries view EU as only a gain. Once it comes to taking their share of a burden it's.. uhm, no, no thanks.
Quote from: Liep on June 26, 2015, 03:48:33 AM
French police tries to keep immigrants from the highway in Calais. UK is apparently a more desirable destination.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIaZFAqUYAAtlWS.jpg)
Renzi: "If this is your idea of Europe you can keep it" after breakdowns in talks about asylum quotas.
Ed contemplating a move to Calais to see more French police manhandling of illegal immigrants?
I'm really ashamed by Poland's stance in this.
Quote from: Liep on June 26, 2015, 03:48:33 AM
French police tries to keep immigrants from the highway in Calais. UK is apparently a more desirable destination.
(https://pbs.twimg.coa/CUYAAtlWS.jpg)
Renzi: "If this is your idea of Europe you can keep it" after breakdowns in talks about asylum quotas.
I guess we suffer from being end of the line.
They can always try Spain then try France and upon finding them both to be shit for migrants next is the UK- oh look its shit too....Nowhere really to go then. No reason to believe anywhere else is any better.
Also a tonne of crappy propeganda floating about around Britain being such a soft touch and easy on immigrants.
I suspect the right's moans about this (not actually true) sort of thing may be leading to the problem they so hate.
You suffer from the legacy of owning a quarter of the world. :P
Those guys only speak English beside their native tongue. They haven't got the slightest chance for anything remotely decent except in the UK.
Still they shouldn't be handled as victims, but rather law-breakers, but still.
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 05:32:30 AM
You suffer from the legacy of owning a quarter of the world. :P
Those guys only speak English beside their native tongue. They haven't got the slightest chance for anything remotely decent except in the UK.
Also a big part of the problem.
Quote
Still they shouldn't be handled as victims, but rather law-breakers, but still.
...???
Tyopoed "n't"? as that is the current situation.
The left in Europe -seemingly- is shooting itself in the foot again by not differentiating between the masses of desperate people pouring in from warzones, and the fucktards who do stuff like camping at Calais.
Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants. How they can setup camp somewhere and then cause mayhem is beyond me.
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 05:49:40 AM
The left in Europe -seemingly- is shooting itself in the foot again by not differentiating between the masses of desperate people pouring in from warzones, and the fucktards who do stuff like camping at Calais.
Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants. How they can setup camp somewhere and then cause mayhem is beyond me.
The european left -suffering from a severe case of cultural marxism- still believes that this horde will expedite their "workers-revolution" and usher in the "workers-paradise" while everyone with half a brain has long ago seen that unfettered access will only lead to unlimited misery. For everyone. It'll take the collapse of social security in a few countries before they'll understand... maybe.
And in the mean time real refugees lose out because the general populace has more or less had it with "more foreigners".
Quote from: Martinus on June 26, 2015, 04:33:21 AM
I'm really ashamed by Poland's stance in this.
Well remember when they allowed the Germans to immigrate to Silesia? Poland remembers.
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2015, 08:12:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 26, 2015, 04:33:21 AM
I'm really ashamed by Poland's stance in this.
Well remember when they allowed the Germans to immigrate to Silesia? Poland remembers.
And Pepperidge Farm.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 26, 2015, 08:16:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2015, 08:12:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 26, 2015, 04:33:21 AM
I'm really ashamed by Poland's stance in this.
Well remember when they allowed the Germans to immigrate to Silesia? Poland remembers.
And Pepperidge Farm.
:lol: I got it.
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 05:49:40 AM
The left in Europe -seemingly- is shooting itself in the foot again by not differentiating between the masses of desperate people pouring in from warzones, and the fucktards who do stuff like camping at Calais.
Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants. How they can setup camp somewhere and then cause mayhem is beyond me.
:huh:
Its the right who don't differentiate and have a general policy of "Keep 'em all out" in some cases with a slight addition of " unless they're doctors. Then we can use them. Who cares where they come from."
The left are far more about analysing things in detail and trying to help the most in need.
It's really silly. The total number of refugees that come to Europe per year must be less than a million. That's 0.2% of the population. How hard can it be to distribute and integrate that number?
Quote from: Zanza on June 26, 2015, 09:28:54 AM
It's really silly. The total number of refugees that come to Europe per year must be less than a million. That's 0.2% of the population. How hard can it be to distribute and integrate that number?
For that you would have to basically lift immigration controls. Because yes there are people who just want to lay low behind peaceful borders while the shitstorm back home passes.
But then you have, often literally mixed with them, the guys around Calais. They are doing that shit not because they are refugees, but because they are (rightfully or not) not welcome in the place they want to go to, and can only enter illegally.
Quote from: Tyr on June 26, 2015, 09:23:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 05:49:40 AM
The left in Europe -seemingly- is shooting itself in the foot again by not differentiating between the masses of desperate people pouring in from warzones, and the fucktards who do stuff like camping at Calais.
Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants. How they can setup camp somewhere and then cause mayhem is beyond me.
:huh:
Its the right who don't differentiate and have a general policy of "Keep 'em all out" in some cases with a slight addition of " unless they're doctors. Then we can use them. Who cares where they come from."
The left are far more about analysing things in detail and trying to help the most in need.
Maybe your Left should inform our Left about that. The left here -and not only here- is more about letting everyone in and giving them money.
As a weekly reader of The Economist, I have never heard anything from the British left about analyzing things in detail and trying to help the most in need, or any other permutation of immigration restriction.
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 09:39:29 AM
For that you would have to basically lift immigration controls. Because yes there are people who just want to lay low behind peaceful borders while the shitstorm back home passes.
But then you have, often literally mixed with them, the guys around Calais. They are doing that shit not because they are refugees, but because they are (rightfully or not) not welcome in the place they want to go to, and can only enter illegally.
Yes, but the quota would only apply to those considered refugees that are granted asylum.
It would not apply to other immigrants, legal or not. So I don't see the contradiction here.
We should be able to redistribute the refugees - which are legal immigrants by the way as per the UN refugee charters etc. - and still have immigration controls in place for every other category of immigrants.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 26, 2015, 06:15:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 05:49:40 AM
The left in Europe -seemingly- is shooting itself in the foot again by not differentiating between the masses of desperate people pouring in from warzones, and the fucktards who do stuff like camping at Calais.
Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants. How they can setup camp somewhere and then cause mayhem is beyond me.
The european left -suffering from a severe case of cultural marxism- still believes that this horde will expedite their "workers-revolution" and usher in the "workers-paradise" while everyone with half a brain has long ago seen that unfettered access will only lead to unlimited misery. For everyone. It'll take the collapse of social security in a few countries before they'll understand... maybe.
And in the mean time real refugees lose out because the general populace has more or less had it with "more foreigners".
No, I think the European left - suffering from a severe case of humanism - still believe these are human beings.
You are welcome to keep your conspiracy-addled 1930s mindset, though.
Quote from: Norgy on June 26, 2015, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 26, 2015, 06:15:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 05:49:40 AM
The left in Europe -seemingly- is shooting itself in the foot again by not differentiating between the masses of desperate people pouring in from warzones, and the fucktards who do stuff like camping at Calais.
Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants. How they can setup camp somewhere and then cause mayhem is beyond me.
The european left -suffering from a severe case of cultural marxism- still believes that this horde will expedite their "workers-revolution" and usher in the "workers-paradise" while everyone with half a brain has long ago seen that unfettered access will only lead to unlimited misery. For everyone. It'll take the collapse of social security in a few countries before they'll understand... maybe.
And in the mean time real refugees lose out because the general populace has more or less had it with "more foreigners".
No, I think the European left - suffering from a severe case of humanism - still believe these are human beings.
don't be naive. it's about money, power and votes. And if the left has to sell out the locals to get them they will, without batting an eyelid
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 26, 2015, 02:16:39 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 26, 2015, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 26, 2015, 06:15:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 05:49:40 AM
The left in Europe -seemingly- is shooting itself in the foot again by not differentiating between the masses of desperate people pouring in from warzones, and the fucktards who do stuff like camping at Calais.
Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants. How they can setup camp somewhere and then cause mayhem is beyond me.
The european left -suffering from a severe case of cultural marxism- still believes that this horde will expedite their "workers-revolution" and usher in the "workers-paradise" while everyone with half a brain has long ago seen that unfettered access will only lead to unlimited misery. For everyone. It'll take the collapse of social security in a few countries before they'll understand... maybe.
And in the mean time real refugees lose out because the general populace has more or less had it with "more foreigners".
No, I think the European left - suffering from a severe case of humanism - still believe these are human beings.
don't be naive. it's about money, power and votes. And if the left has to sell out the locals to get them they will, without batting an eyelid
Okay, Breivik.
Quote from: Norgy on June 26, 2015, 04:09:46 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 26, 2015, 02:16:39 PM
Quote from: Norgy on June 26, 2015, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 26, 2015, 06:15:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 26, 2015, 05:49:40 AM
The left in Europe -seemingly- is shooting itself in the foot again by not differentiating between the masses of desperate people pouring in from warzones, and the fucktards who do stuff like camping at Calais.
Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants. How they can setup camp somewhere and then cause mayhem is beyond me.
The european left -suffering from a severe case of cultural marxism- still believes that this horde will expedite their "workers-revolution" and usher in the "workers-paradise" while everyone with half a brain has long ago seen that unfettered access will only lead to unlimited misery. For everyone. It'll take the collapse of social security in a few countries before they'll understand... maybe.
And in the mean time real refugees lose out because the general populace has more or less had it with "more foreigners".
No, I think the European left - suffering from a severe case of humanism - still believe these are human beings.
don't be naive. it's about money, power and votes. And if the left has to sell out the locals to get them they will, without batting an eyelid
Okay, Breivik.
leftist mud doesn't stick anymore
In one of the biggest (probably the biggest) refugee camps in Hungary, there was a kind of small riot, supposedly over a religious "debate" between camp dwellers.
They were protesting or doing something similar outside in the city (Debrecen) as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=35&v=aVbPpOJhX0I
Riot police has been deployed, and refugees are forbidden to leave the premises.
It's a camp with facilities for 800 people. It currently houses 1600.
One cannot avoid thinking how conveniently timed this is for the government. This is the very first incident of even remotely this scale. I wonder if they had somebody incite a religious face-off inside.
http://www.thelocal.at/20150701/austria-to-help-hungary-secure-borders-and-cope-with-migrant-wave
QuoteAustria to help Hungary cope with migrant wave
The interior ministers of Austria, Hungary and Serbia have signed an agreement to send more personnel and technical equipment to joint police patrols on Serbia's borders with Hungary and Macedonia.
"The EU must not just be focused on the Mediterranean sea routes but also the Balkan route," Austrian Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner told a press conference.
Mikl-Leitner said she wants to improve cooperation with Budapest to help secure its borders.
Hungary has refused to take back asylum seekers from other EU states and is threatening to build a fence along its border with Serbia to stem the flow of irregular migrants.
The European Commission has pledged to send financial aid and experts to Hungary to help it cope with a surge in illegal immigration this year, a senior Brussels official said in Budapest on Tuesday.
"Hungary will receive nearly €8 million ($9 million) of support to help it cope with the migration issue," said Dimitris Avramopoulos, the commission's senior official for migration issues, told journalists after a meeting with Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto.
Calling European Union member Hungary a "frontline" state like Italy and Greece, Avramopoulos said "Europe will always support frontline member states".
"Hungary is under pressure. We were talking so far about Italy and Greece, now we added Hungary," he noted.
Brussels also offered to send asylum experts and help set up temporary "hot-spot" tents to speed up identification and registration of migrants and processing of asylum requests, Avramopoulos said.
In the last two years, Hungary, also a member of Europe's passport-free Schengen zone, has become a major transit country for refugees and migrants attempting to reach wealthy Western countries like Austria and Germany by land rather than sea.
Prime Minister Viktor Orban complained last week in Brussels that Hungary was receiving little help from Brussels compared to Italy and Greece. "Now more attention is being paid to Hungary," Avramopoulos said on Tuesday.
In 2014, Hungary received more asylum requests per capita than any other EU country apart from Sweden, up to nearly 43,000 from just 2,000 in 2012.
Most come from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, but also from Kosovo.
This year, more than 50,000 migrants tried to cross into Hungary via Serbia between January 1 and May 31 -- representing an 880 percent increase compared to the same period in 2014, according to the EU's Frontex border agency.
The surge has coincided with a series of controversial anti-immigration measures launched by Orban.
Earlier in June, his government unveiled plans to build a four-metre (13-foot) high fence on its border with Serbia to keep out migrants.
"We try to adopt a common European agenda, a common European policy on migration but member states are not deprived of the right to adopt their own policy on matters of defending borders," Avramopoulos said.
Fences have already been built by Greece and Bulgaria, also EU member states, he added.
Quote from: Tamas on June 29, 2015, 11:56:27 AM
In one of the biggest (probably the biggest) refugee camps in Hungary, there was a kind of small riot, supposedly over a religious "debate" between camp dwellers.
They were protesting or doing something similar outside in the city (Debrecen) as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=35&v=aVbPpOJhX0I
Riot police has been deployed, and refugees are forbidden to leave the premises.
It's a camp with facilities for 800 people. It currently houses 1600.
One cannot avoid thinking how conveniently timed this is for the government. This is the very first incident of even remotely this scale. I wonder if they had somebody incite a religious face-off inside.
Did they use the tumult to kill somebody formely associated to the regime in the country they left while shouting slogans equivalent to ¡Libertad! ?
Quote from: Syt on July 01, 2015, 04:42:27 AM
http://www.thelocal.at/20150701/austria-to-help-hungary-secure-borders-and-cope-with-migrant-wave
Austria and Hungary, still teaming up to keep minorities under control after all these years :wub:
:wub:
Just yesterday the Hungarian police and border patrols caught more than 1200 illegal migrants.
IIRC that's more than 10% of the usual yearly traffic, on a single day I wonder if migration is indeed brutally increasing or the police stopped letting them through, to help drive the government's point home.
Quote from: Tamas on July 17, 2015, 02:25:18 AM
Just yesterday the Hungarian police and border patrols caught more than 1200 illegal migrants.
IIRC that's more than 10% of the usual yearly traffic, on a single day I wonder if migration is indeed brutally increasing or the police stopped letting them through, to help drive the government's point home.
It could easily be both.
True
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/world/europe/route-of-migrants-into-europe-shifts-toward-balkans.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
QuoteRoute of Migrants Into Europe Shifts Toward Balkans
BUDAPEST — The surge of migrants into Europe from war-ravaged and impoverished parts of the Middle East, Afghanistan and Africa has shifted in recent months. Migrants are now pushing by land across the western Balkans, in numbers roughly equal to those entering the Continent through Italy.
Much of Europe is reeling from the flow of people seeking safety, jobs and a better life — but who have strained resources, heightened ethnic and religious tensions, and rewired politics in individual nations and throughout the Continent.
The new pathway is also causing a sharp rise in anti-immigrant sentiment in the Balkans and neighboring central Europes, bolstering nationalist parties and inspiring protests in many countries.
The economic crisis in Greece, the main landing point in Europe for migrants heading into the Balkans, could further impede efforts to control the flow by reducing political focus and money dedicated to securing the nation's borders.
The shift in the migrant path became evident from January through June, when about 79,000 migrants crossed illegally into Greece from Turkey, according to Frontex, the European Union's border watchdog agency. Some remained in Greece, but most continued north across Macedonia and Serbia into Hungary, which saw 67,000 illegal arrivals.
During the same half-year, the sea route from Libya to Italy, long the most popular path, also had about 67,000 illegal crossings.
Last year, the 170,000 migrants who tried to take the Mediterranean route to Italy outnumbered those entering through the western Balkans by nearly four to one. More sea crossings occur in warmer months, border officials said, making it likely that the traffic figures on the two routes will diverge by winter.
Hungarian officials said that as of Thursday, more than 81,000 migrants had crossed into their country in 2015. "If it continues at this pace, we are on track to reach the 150,000 mark this year," said Peter Szijjarto, minister of foreign affairs and trade.
Migration officials said they were not sure exactly why the flow had shifted toward the Balkans. They speculate that reports of frequent drownings and harrowing boat crossings may have played a part. At the same time, European nations have made interdiction a more central policy, and Libya has become increasingly volatile and dangerous.
Syrians may also be gravitating to the land route through Greece because changes in visa laws in the Middle East have made it more difficult to pass through the region on the way to Libya and then Italy, said Ewa Moncure, a spokeswoman for Frontex. Iran, a country that had attracted many Afghan refugees, has also altered its visa rules, making it more difficult for refugees to remain there. And Bulgaria, the other European nation that migrants might cross by land into Europe, has also tightened its border controls.
"We hear the situation has changed in Bulgaria and Iran, making it more difficult to migrate there, and everyone knows Italy is full," said Timea Kovacs, who represents the Helsinki Committee for Human Rights in the Hungarian border city of Szeged. "But we don't know for sure."
Migrants interviewed in recent days on both sides of the Hungarian border said they had chosen the Balkans route because it was less expensive and had been recommended by smugglers they paid to get them to Europe. The prices they had paid to reach the Hungarian border varied, depending on what level of service they purchased and how much the smugglers thought they could squeeze out of them, from $1,000 to more than $4,000 per person.
Most traveled from Turkey into Greece, either across its short land border or by boat. And the bulk of those continued through Macedonia and Serbia before encountering the Hungarian border, the main obstacle on their path to Western Europe.
About 19,000 migrants from a mix of countries crossed into Hungary in 2013, but the figure jumped to more than 43,000 in 2014 because of a mass evacuation from Kosovo, Mr. Szijjarto, the foreign minister, said. A multinational agreement allowed Hungary to turn Kosovars back to Serbia, and by mid-February that human stream had evaporated. But it was more than replaced by a fresh wave of migrants from Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Eritrea, Somalia, and other Middle Eastern and African zones of war or turmoil.
Resistance to the migrants, many of whom are Muslim, has been growing in even the most liberal European nations, spawning advances by right-wing parties in Denmark, France and Britain.
But nowhere has it been exploited the way it has been in Hungary, where the conservative government of Viktor Orban, whose popularity is sagging, has seized on concerns about immigration.
"The government campaign has been really powerful in taking what had been a nonissue in Hungary and turning it into a very big issue," said Csaba Toth, director of strategy for the Republikon Institute, a political research group that has been critical of the government.
Government officials deny that anti-immigrant sentiment is rising in Hungary, or that they are attempting to stoke it.
"We have no bad experience with Muslims," Mr. Szijjarto said. "There is no xenophobia in this country either. But we are not in a position to host tens of thousands of migrants."
Right-wing groups have already staged protests in Budapest and elsewhere, and are promising to stage more outside government-run refugee camps and along the Serbian border.
For their part, the migrants say they want to pass through Hungary as quickly as possible on their way to Germany and other Western European countries that they have been told are more welcoming.
"Nobody wants to go to Hungary," said a man who identified himself only as Mirivan, 27, an English literature student from Damascus, Syria, who hopes to earn a master's degree somewhere in Western Europe. "No, sorry."
In May, the Hungarian government mailed what it called a "national consultation" to millions of Hungarian voters, asking them, among other things, whether they are concerned about a link between the migrants and terrorism, and whether government money now going to migrants should instead be spent on Hungarian families.
Zoltan Kovacs, Mr. Orban's international spokesman, said the early results showed a worried public.
"Over 80 percent favor tougher measures against the immigrants," Mr. Kovacs said. "Of course, it is not a scientific survey. It is a political questionnaire, to consult with the voters. But still, 60 percent say they feel there is a link between migrants and terrorism. Obviously, there is a serious risk. It is just logical."
The government also organized a nationwide billboard campaign of messages directed at the migrants — but written in Hungarian — warning them to abide by local laws, to respect Hungarian culture and not to try to take Hungarians' jobs.
Mr. Orban also said his government would follow the example of Bulgaria, which is building a fence along its border with Turkey, and construct a temporary 13-foot fence along the 108-mile Serbian border — an announcement that disappointed the Serbs, who are trying to join the European Union.
Construction was to begin last week on a test section, with hopes of completing the entire project by Nov. 30, the defense minister, Csaba Hende, said at a news conference in the border town of Morahalom.
Mr. Orban also said recently that the government intends to close its current refugee facilities in populated areas around the country — already criticized by migrant advocates as overcrowded and squalid — and transfer residents to new tented encampments in more remote areas.
In a move many advocates find ominous, Hungary has also passed legislation allowing it to turn away or deport migrants by declaring neighboring countries, such as Serbia, to be "safe."
"The government attitude is that they came through safe countries, so they should have stayed there," said Gabor Gyulai, refugee program coordinator for the Helsinki Committee for Human Rights in Budapest.
Hungary has always had a bit of a xenophobic streak, Mr. Gyulai said, though usually it is below the surface.
In an experiment in 2006, a Hungarian polling company asked what respondents thought about various ethnic groups, including an invented group, the "Pirez people." Two-thirds said they did not like the Pirez people one bit. :lol:
"Oh yes, everybody hates the Pirez," Gergely Kovacs, founder of a satirical political group in Budapest known as the Dog With Two Tails Party, said with a laugh.
Mr. Kovacs, a graphic designer, had been so upset with the billboard campaign that he appealed on the Internet for money to mount one of his own.
He raised $117,000, enough for 900 billboards, almost as many as the 1,000 erected by the government.
His billboards look very much like the blue and white official ones, but they have slogans like "We Apologize for Our Prime Minister."
The anti-immigrant sentiment in Central Europe may be frightening to the new arrivals, but it has yet to deter the flow of migrants.
Still, it worries Zoltan Bolek, president of the Hungarian Islamic Community, one of two associations that represent the 10,000 Muslim residents in a country of 10 million.
"Until now, there has been little Islamophobia in Hungary," he said. "So we are surprised at what is happening."
I was way too optimistic when it came to the changed attitude in Germany that I described in this thread earlier. I guess it just took the Nazis some time to show up. :weep:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33700624
QuoteImmigration fuels rising tension in Germany
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fichef.bbci.co.uk%2Fnews%2F660%2Fcpsprodpb%2F11869%2Fproduction%2F_84558717_027907950-1.jpg&hash=48679a9953086198dfcad56b4295015761be944f)
[...] Germany receives more refugees than any other European county.
In the first half of this year, 180,000 people claimed asylum in Germany, and that number is expected to more than double by the end of 2015.
Towns and cities are converting gyms and warehouses into accommodation or putting refugees up in tent cities. Volunteers are rushing to donate clothes, money, time.
This year's influx is expected to cost up to 5bn euros (£3.5bn). And the strain is beginning to show.
Attacks rising
Attacks on accommodation for asylum seekers have increased significantly. According to the interior ministry, this year there have already been 173 attacks (175 were registered in the whole of last year ).
On Monday night, more than 2,000 people marched through Dresden in support of Pegida, a movement against what it calls the "Islamisation of the West", which attracts the far right as well as people who simply oppose immigration or fear its effects.
And, nearby, in the town of Freital, several hundred people held anti-refugee protests outside accommodation for asylum seekers.
The attacks and protests horrify most Germans. Many believe it is the duty of a rich country to help refugees.
Others view immigration as a potential solution to the country's ageing demographic and a shortage of skilled labour.
Above all, in a country where the past still stains the present, any manifestation of racist sentiment evokes profound concern.
Justice Minister Heiko Maas spoke for many when he condemned the protests, saying there was "no place for xenophobia in Germany".
The news magazine Spiegel pictured refugees on this week's front cover, accompanied by a headline: "Hatred of asylum seekers poisons Germany".
So, there is a febrile atmosphere as politicians squabble over how to deal with the issue.
The debate - which has been simmering for months - tends to revolve around two questions:
- Who should pay for the refugees flooding into Germany?
Is there a way to reduce the numbers?
The federal government recently agreed to release 1m euros to help German states cope with the growing bill.
It was not enough, said the Bavarian prime minister this week.
Horst Seehofer, who leads the CSU (the sister party to Angela Merkel's conservatives), is also behind controversial plans to reduce the number of asylum seekers from Albania, Kosovo and Montenegro.
His party's proposal would extend a strategy the federal government executed last year.
In December, Berlin declared Serbia, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Macedonia "safe countries of origin", making it much easier (and faster) for the state to refuse asylum claimants from those countries.
In Bavaria, they are already planning separate - and controversial - camps for them.
The idea "worked" in that the number of asylum seekers from those countries has risen by 12%, while the numbers from Albania, Kosovo and Montenegro rose by 500%.
In fact, while this year 34,000 refugees have arrived from Syria, 31,000 came from Kosovo.
No wonder, perhaps, many politicians favour declaring it and the two other Balkan states "safe".
But gaining consensus on that proposal may be tricky.
There is plenty of opposition from those who believe it is morally wrong and impractical, and who worry such a plan is simply borne out of - and exacerbates - a right-wing anti-immigrant rhetoric.
Refugee politics
"Fluchtlingspolitik" (refugee politics) makes for uncomfortable debate in Germany.
And, arguably, the real solution does not lie within the power of a single country - however wealthy or attractive it is to refugees.
Last year, the German interior minister demanded other European countries took more responsibility for refugees.
The EU commission came up with an idea for a "quota" system under which countries would take in specific numbers of refugees according to their population size and gross domestic product (GDP).
Those countries still cannot agree on a plan. [...]
Zanza, if you're on facebook, check out "Hooligans gegen Satzbau." It's both funny and depressing.
Quote from: Zanza on July 30, 2015, 02:18:00 PM
I was way too optimistic when it came to the changed attitude in Germany that I described in this thread earlier. I guess it just took the Nazis some time to show up. :weep:
What exactly did you base this optimism on? Have we not seen ethnic conflict in Europe going on for centuries? Heck look at some of the countries in the EU, like Cyprus and the Baltic States.
There's not many mass migrations that happened peacefully. Did anyone thing this time would be different? There's worse to come.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
There's not many mass migrations that happened peacefully. Did anyone thing this time would be different? There's worse to come.
Especially ones like this. These people are not going there because they see their futures in Europe, they would rather have stayed home. But they cannot, so they have to go to whomever will take them. Just bad news.
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
There's not many mass migrations that happened peacefully. Did anyone thing this time would be different? There's worse to come.
Especially ones like this. These people are not going there because they see their futures in Europe, they would rather have stayed home.
Indeed. Many of them even go back to the old countries on holiday.
Quote from: The Brain on July 30, 2015, 02:57:50 PM
Indeed. Many of them even go back to the old countries on holiday.
Wait these are refugees we are talking about. They are taking little pleasure trips to Syria?
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2015, 03:02:18 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 30, 2015, 02:57:50 PM
Indeed. Many of them even go back to the old countries on holiday.
Wait these are refugees we are talking about. They are taking little pleasure trips to Syria?
I don't know about Syria, but refugees in Sweden often make trips to the old country. Why wouldn't they? Remember that Sweden's definition of refugee is much broader than the term would suggest.
Meanwhile in Calais. The folks who run the Eurotunnel say they have caught 10s of thousands of attempts to get across the channel this year. Mostly refugees try to hide on trucks and trains. If refugees are caught on the UK side, the truck driver has to pay a fine unless he can prove he did whatever he could to keep stowaways off.
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Where's the wooden wall?
I can kinda understand the desire to be in the UK vs. France.
Quote from: garbon on July 30, 2015, 03:08:44 PM
I can kinda understand the desire to be in the UK vs. France.
Well, it's not like the UK couldn't do more to share the burden, when you look at asylum seekers per capita.
(https://swedishsurveyor.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/immigrationeurope.jpg)
Quote from: garbon on July 30, 2015, 03:08:44 PM
I can kinda understand the desire to be in the UK vs. France.
And the French would rather have these illegal migrants in the UK as well. Meanwhile, the French interior minister blames Eurotunnel for not doing enough to contain them. :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2015, 02:43:08 PM
Quote from: Zanza on July 30, 2015, 02:18:00 PM
I was way too optimistic when it came to the changed attitude in Germany that I described in this thread earlier. I guess it just took the Nazis some time to show up. :weep:
What exactly did you base this optimism on? Have we not seen ethnic conflict in Europe going on for centuries? Heck look at some of the countries in the EU, like Cyprus and the Baltic States.
The opinion of official Germany and I think the majority is fairly welcoming. That made me optimistic. Still does.
But there are enough Nazis left I guess. And as Der Spiegel wrote, we should start calling them terrorists not just extreme right hooligans when they commit arson. Because that's their goal - spreading terror.
Horror and moral terror are your friends. :huh:
Quote from: Zanza on July 30, 2015, 03:42:06 PM
But there are enough Nazis left I guess. And as Der Spiegel wrote, we should start calling them terrorists not just extreme right hooligans when they commit arson. Because that's their goal - spreading terror.
I would be surprised if it is just Nazis who will be a problem going forward. Anyway the 'extreme right wing arsonist hooligan terrorists' I am sure will be very upset at being called another nasty name. Once you agree to be a Nazi nothing else is probably going to phase you.
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
There's not many mass migrations that happened peacefully. Did anyone thing this time would be different? There's worse to come.
Especially ones like this. These people are not going there because they see their futures in Europe, they would rather have stayed home. But they cannot, so they have to go to whomever will take them. Just bad news.
This is the thing though, which complicates it greatly: yes, almost all of these migrants are coming from the worst shitholes of the planet. Yes, great many of them have fled their home country because of being in a warzone, or being part of a prosecuted minority, etc.
But almost a 100% of them are within EU borders because they seek not "only" safety from death but an actual restart of their lives with a chance of decent living.
And the EU has more decent living than 95% of the world population gets. Having a desire to share that simply cannot be reason enough to be let in.
When my grandparents fled the coming frontline in WW2 they fled as far as they had to, to keep away from harms way. The front caught up with them numerous times, they had their share of horror and what you could classify as adventures if you ignore the very real and major danger of death. They slep in camps, they slept at goodwilled strangers, just like they offered shelter to other refugges when their homes were further from the frontline.
They never got more than 40-60 kilometers from their home.
These "refugees" have no intention to be refugees seeking temporary shelter before returning home. They seek a new home. They are migrants. And I 100% understand them, if I was in their place I would be doing the exact same thing.
However, the number of people in the conflict zones they are coming from probably outnumber the EU as a whole. And this will increase especially in the Middle East where their version of the 30 years war is sure to escalate. I think the EU has to do two things quickly and decisively:
1. Try to help these people. There are only two final solutions to the migrants issue: helping them or killing them and the second option has been tried countless times, with a very low success rate
2. Do step one outside of EU borders somehow, and heavily penalise thus discourage actual illegal migration into the EU.
Quote from: Tamas on July 30, 2015, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
There's not many mass migrations that happened peacefully. Did anyone thing this time would be different? There's worse to come.
Especially ones like this. These people are not going there because they see their futures in Europe, they would rather have stayed home. But they cannot, so they have to go to whomever will take them. Just bad news.
This is the thing though, which complicates it greatly: yes, almost all of these migrants are coming from the worst shitholes of the planet. Yes, great many of them have fled their home country because of being in a warzone, or being part of a prosecuted minority, etc.
But almost a 100% of them are within EU borders because they seek not "only" safety from death but an actual restart of their lives with a chance of decent living.
And the EU has more decent living than 95% of the world population gets. Having a desire to share that simply cannot be reason enough to be let in.
Why not?
Quote from: Barrister on July 30, 2015, 04:58:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 30, 2015, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
There's not many mass migrations that happened peacefully. Did anyone thing this time would be different? There's worse to come.
Especially ones like this. These people are not going there because they see their futures in Europe, they would rather have stayed home. But they cannot, so they have to go to whomever will take them. Just bad news.
This is the thing though, which complicates it greatly: yes, almost all of these migrants are coming from the worst shitholes of the planet. Yes, great many of them have fled their home country because of being in a warzone, or being part of a prosecuted minority, etc.
But almost a 100% of them are within EU borders because they seek not "only" safety from death but an actual restart of their lives with a chance of decent living.
And the EU has more decent living than 95% of the world population gets. Having a desire to share that simply cannot be reason enough to be let in.
Why not?
Why isn't it in Canada? You don't let everyone in. No country I know of has an open border.
Quote from: Tamas on July 30, 2015, 05:02:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 30, 2015, 04:58:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 30, 2015, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
There's not many mass migrations that happened peacefully. Did anyone thing this time would be different? There's worse to come.
Especially ones like this. These people are not going there because they see their futures in Europe, they would rather have stayed home. But they cannot, so they have to go to whomever will take them. Just bad news.
This is the thing though, which complicates it greatly: yes, almost all of these migrants are coming from the worst shitholes of the planet. Yes, great many of them have fled their home country because of being in a warzone, or being part of a prosecuted minority, etc.
But almost a 100% of them are within EU borders because they seek not "only" safety from death but an actual restart of their lives with a chance of decent living.
And the EU has more decent living than 95% of the world population gets. Having a desire to share that simply cannot be reason enough to be let in.
Why not?
Why isn't it in Canada? You don't let everyone in. No country I know of has an open border.
We have a hell of a more open border than, say, Hungary does.
Quote from: Barrister on July 30, 2015, 05:12:46 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 30, 2015, 05:02:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 30, 2015, 04:58:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 30, 2015, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
There's not many mass migrations that happened peacefully. Did anyone thing this time would be different? There's worse to come.
Especially ones like this. These people are not going there because they see their futures in Europe, they would rather have stayed home. But they cannot, so they have to go to whomever will take them. Just bad news.
This is the thing though, which complicates it greatly: yes, almost all of these migrants are coming from the worst shitholes of the planet. Yes, great many of them have fled their home country because of being in a warzone, or being part of a prosecuted minority, etc.
But almost a 100% of them are within EU borders because they seek not "only" safety from death but an actual restart of their lives with a chance of decent living.
And the EU has more decent living than 95% of the world population gets. Having a desire to share that simply cannot be reason enough to be let in.
Why not?
Why isn't it in Canada? You don't let everyone in. No country I know of has an open border.
We have a hell of a more open border than, say, Hungary does.
But you don't let everyone in. If a mass migration was pouring over your borders, you wouldn't just settle them all.
When it happens, they won't have a choice. :menace:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33729024
QuoteDogs and fencing for Calais to help with migrant crisis
Extra sniffer dogs and fencing will be sent to Calais to help deal with the migrant crisis, the prime minister has announced.
Speaking after chairing a meeting of the Cobra emergency committee, David Cameron said the situation was "not acceptable".
It follows a fourth night of disruption at the Calais Eurotunnel terminal.
"This is going to be a difficult issue right across the summer," Mr Cameron warned.
"We are absolutely on it. We know it needs more work," he said.
"We rule nothing out in dealing with this very serious problem."
'Wrong way around'
The prime minister spoke after migrants made fresh attempts to enter the tunnel on a fourth night of incidents in Calais.
He said he would be speaking to French president Francois Hollande later on Friday and thanked the French for providing extra police at the Eurotunnel site which had already had "some effect".
"We are keen to work hand in glove with them to reduce pressure on that side of the border," added Mr Cameron.
He also said Ministry of Defence land would be made available to help relieve traffic problems in Kent as thousands of lorries are still queuing on the M20 due to Channel disruptions.
UKIP leader Nigel Farage told BBC Radio Leeds freight could start moving again quickly if lorries were diverted to other ports, like Ramsgate.
He said: "There's a big harbour there which can take medium-sized vessels. We can go across to Dunkirk, or even up to Ostend or Zeebrugge.
"We could actually start moving some lorries. I think we are getting this completely the wrong way around."
Travel latest
- M20 closed coast-bound from J8 to J11 for the Operation Stack freight queue
- The wait for lorries in the stack is up to five hours to Dover ferry port and three hours to Eurotunnel
- Eurotunnel says its passenger services are running with a delay of an hour on the UK side and a normal service on the French side
- Freight services face a 90-minute delay before check-in on the UK side, with a normal service on the French side
- DFDS Seaways says services on its Dover-Calais route are operating within 30 minutes of schedule
- P&O ferries said its services are operating within 30 minutes of schedule between Dover and Calais.
-Eurostar trains are currently running on time
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33750336
QuoteCalais migrant crisis: UK and France urge EU action
The UK and France have urged other EU nations to help address the root causes of the Calais migrant crisis.
In the Sunday Telegraph, Home Secretary Theresa May and her French counterpart Bernard Cazeneuve said it was part of a "global migration crisis".
Migrants in Calais are making nightly bids to cross the Channel, leading to delays on cross-Channel services.
Meanwhile, the Home Office said support could end for failed asylum-seekers, to discourage illegal migration.
Bolstered security measures planned for around the French end of the Channel Tunnel, which include more CCTV surveillance, French police reinforcements and extra fencing, were agreed between Prime Minister David Cameron and President Francois Hollande on Friday.
There have been thousands of attempts by migrants to access the Eurotunnel terminal in the last week.
A man believed to be Sudanese was killed on Tuesday night while attempting to make the journey, the ninth person to die while trying to access the tunnel since the start of June.
Eurotunnel passenger services from the UK to France are currently delayed by about 30 minutes due to what Eurotunnel described as an "earlier incident" in the terminal. There is no delay to passenger services from the French side.
Freight journeys from France were earlier delayed but are now operating to schedule.
In their Telegraph piece, Mrs May and Mr Cazeneuve wrote: "This situation cannot be seen as an issue just for our two countries.
"It is a priority at both a European and international level."
They said many migrants in Calais had travelled through Italy, Greece and other countries, which was why they were pushing for other EU countries to "address this problem at root".
The "link between crossing the Mediterranean and achieving settlement in Europe for economic reasons" must be broken, they wrote.
They suggested that the long-term solution would be to persuade would-be migrants hoping for a better life in Europe that "our streets are not paved with gold".
A Downing Street spokesman said the prime minister wanted to see "more security and tougher action at the border".
Details of the security measures agreed between the two countries include:
- Extra private security guards, funded by the UK, to boost an existing 200-strong team
- An increased presence of French police on the borders throughout the summer
- Additional fencing, funded by the UK, to be installed around the Eurotunnel perimeter as required, with higher boundaries and extra layers where necessary and a large metal barrier to protect Eurotunnel platforms
- Extra CCTV, infra-red detectors and floodlighting to secure key segments of the perimeter fence
The No 10 spokesman added: "On top of that, we want to help those being affected by the disruption, including securing additional parking zones in Kent to reduce the impact on local residents and businesses."
Operation Stack - the police scheme of closing part of the M20 in Kent to park lorries - was in place for part of Saturday but has now been lifted.
Immigration minister James Brokenshire said rules could be changed to remove taxpayer support for more than 10,000 failed asylum-seekers living in the UK with their families.
In the UK, migrants can obtain accommodation and a support allowance worth £36 a week from the moment they claim asylum.
This is withdrawn from individuals whose application fails - but failed asylum-seekers with families continue to receive support.
Mr Brokenshire said: "I want to introduce new rules to support those who genuinely need it, but send out a very clear message to those who seek to exploit the system that Britain is not a soft touch on asylum."
Shadow immigration minister David Hanson said the government needed to put diplomatic pressure on the French government to assess migrants in Calais to determine if they had proper asylum seeker or refugee status or were in the country illegally.
He said: "If those people were in Dover do you think the UK authorities would allow illegal immigrants, or people not yet claiming asylum or refugee status, to be in Dover? They wouldn't."
The Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, urged the government to treat asylum seekers "humanely", adding that the situation in Calais was "the tip of a humanitarian crisis".
The Daily Mail meanwhile continues a proud tradition:
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Some dude in Saxony does the nazi salute upon seeing a demonstration in favour of refugee hosting in Germany without realizing there's a cop behind him, immediately regrets it.
(https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11836672_859933854073776_8080325177796211807_n.jpg?oh=ea3c837702b33c93c19f5bbf23baf919&oe=563B068A)
"I was just stretching my arm. :sleep:"
The embarassing thing is there's more than 3 million refugees living in Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan alone. And some people in Europe consider it the end of civilization if a dozen of them are given quarter in their home town. In Austria, according to the UNHCR, refugees are less than half a percent of the population.
Quote from: Syt on August 03, 2015, 09:16:19 AM
The embarassing thing is there's more than 3 million refugees living in Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan alone. And some people in Europe consider it the end of civilization if a dozen of them are given quarter in their home town. In Austria, according to the UNHCR, refugees are less than half a percent of the population.
Are say Syrian refugees in Turkey immigrants on track towards Turkish citizenship?
These details do no matter in Erdogan's New Ottoman Empire.
Quote from: Barrister on July 30, 2015, 05:12:46 PM
We have a hell of a more open border than, say, Hungary does.
Canada is also not a long walk away from 100s of millions of people living in desperate shitholes.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 30, 2015, 05:12:46 PM
We have a hell of a more open border than, say, Hungary does.
Canada is also not a long walk away from 100s of millions of people living in desperate shitholes.
Some might consider this being charitable to Latin America. :hmm:
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion. A totally open door policy would be a disaster for any country.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion.
I always like when despicable people reveal themselves. Awfully kind of them and all that.
Canada has a considerably higher percentage of their population foreign born than we do. 20 vs 13.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion. A totally open door policy would be a disaster for any country.
Isn't Canada practically empty? :huh:
Quote from: Tamas on August 03, 2015, 04:26:36 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion. A totally open door policy would be a disaster for any country.
Isn't Canada practically empty? :huh:
Most of it. The Canadian population huddles near the US border, perhaps trying to get in, perhaps trying to just glimpse our awesomeness, or perhaps attracted to the warmth generated by our massive carbon emissions.
Quote from: Tamas on August 03, 2015, 04:26:36 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion. A totally open door policy would be a disaster for any country.
Isn't Canada practically empty? :huh:
That line of reasoning worked great for the Indians.
What I don't get about this Calais thing..
If I was caught trying to break into a truck i would be in big trouble. Trespassing, breaking and entering... A few laws there.
But these guys are just told "no! Bad! No England for you today!" And set free?
Quote from: Tyr on August 03, 2015, 05:54:56 PM
What I don't get about this Calais thing..
If I was caught trying to break into a truck i would be in big trouble. Trespassing, breaking and entering... A few laws there.
But these guys are just told "no! Bad! No England for you today!" And set free?
I'd suggest actually reading about what is happening rather than just imagining what is occurring. :mellow:
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2015, 03:49:44 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion.
I always like when despicable people reveal themselves. Awfully kind of them and all that.
Go fuck yourself. :)
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2015, 06:07:25 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 03, 2015, 05:54:56 PM
What I don't get about this Calais thing..
If I was caught trying to break into a truck i would be in big trouble. Trespassing, breaking and entering... A few laws there.
But these guys are just told "no! Bad! No England for you today!" And set free?
I'd suggest actually reading about what is happening rather than just imagining what is occurring. :mellow:
:rolleyes:
Stop doing that. It grew tiresome long ago.
It is what happens. I have read about this and seen documentaries about it. You get the same guys trying and trying again. Sometimes they're arrested for a little while but they're then driven half an hour away and dumped (supposidely) or just set free.
Quote from: Tamas on August 03, 2015, 04:26:36 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion. A totally open door policy would be a disaster for any country.
Isn't Canada practically empty? :huh:
Most of it is uninhabitable, and immigrants/refugees are all moving to the most populated areas. What, did you think they move into the wilderness and found new cities? What difference would it make anyway, Hungary is mostly empty too. In fact almost all countries are mostly empty.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 06:17:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2015, 03:49:44 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion.
I always like when despicable people reveal themselves. Awfully kind of them and all that.
Go fuck yourself. :)
Nah, I'm good. I'm not the one with backwards views. :(
Quote from: Tyr on August 03, 2015, 06:19:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2015, 06:07:25 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 03, 2015, 05:54:56 PM
What I don't get about this Calais thing..
If I was caught trying to break into a truck i would be in big trouble. Trespassing, breaking and entering... A few laws there.
But these guys are just told "no! Bad! No England for you today!" And set free?
I'd suggest actually reading about what is happening rather than just imagining what is occurring. :mellow:
:rolleyes:
Stop doing that. It grew tiresome long ago.
It is what happens. I have read about this and seen documentaries about it. You get the same guys trying and trying again. Sometimes they're arrested for a little while but they're then driven half an hour away and dumped (supposidely) or just set free.
That's true, it does get tiring responding to your idiocy. Same plays year after year. -_-
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 06:17:18 PM
Go fuck yourself. :)
Haven't you learned not to bother with garbon yet? His opinions on whatever topic is being discussed are solely based on what's trending in the social medias at the moment.
And yes, there are far too many migrants being allowed to enter into the West as it is.
G.
Quote from: Grallon on August 03, 2015, 07:39:52 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 06:17:18 PM
Go fuck yourself. :)
Haven't you learned not to bother with garbon yet? His opinions on whatever topic is being discussed are solely based on what's trending in the social medias at the moment.
I think you're mistaking him with Mart.
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2015, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 06:17:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2015, 03:49:44 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion.
I always like when despicable people reveal themselves. Awfully kind of them and all that.
Go fuck yourself. :)
Nah, I'm good. I'm not the one with backwards views. :(
I have yet to see reports of arrests in big numbers. Couple of days ago the police clashed with a bunch of migrants using tear gas and such and the report was that the attack was "repelled". If French citizens formed a mob and blockaded roads and forced trucks open and/or assaulted high security areas, they would be fugitives until caught and jailed.
Why French authorities are not dismantling the nearby illegal camps is puzzling for me.
Quote from: Tamas on August 04, 2015, 01:18:09 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2015, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 06:17:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2015, 03:49:44 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 03, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
Canada already get way too many immigrants/refugees in my opinion.
I always like when despicable people reveal themselves. Awfully kind of them and all that.
Go fuck yourself. :)
Nah, I'm good. I'm not the one with backwards views. :(
I have yet to see reports of arrests in big numbers. Couple of days ago the police clashed with a bunch of migrants using tear gas and such and the report was that the attack was "repelled". If French citizens formed a mob and blockaded roads and forced trucks open and/or assaulted high security areas, they would be fugitives until caught and jailed.
Why French authorities are not dismantling the nearby illegal camps is puzzling for me.
Dismantling one means a new one a bit farther cf. Sangatte.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangatte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangatte)
Actually France has arrested many migrants but then what's the plan? Keep arresting them and holding them indefinitely and just add to the cost to care for them? This has been an ongoing issue with more migrants showing up (rather just one easily static pool that can be dispersed).
Sure you can pay to deport some of them if you manage to track down where they are from but is that doable in general? And then there is always the moral element of whether it is 'right' to deport people back to countries that they left because they feared for their lives*.
BTW, as far as I know, France did do some evictions last year and then this year opened up the new 'official' camp.
*though yes presumably some were not fleeing horrors/devastation.
I also think they silently want them to go to he UK.:frog:
Quote from: garbon on August 04, 2015, 04:19:29 AM
Actually France has arrested many migrants but then what's the plan? Keep arresting them and holding them indefinitely and just add to the cost to care for them? This has been an ongoing issue with more migrants showing up (rather just one easily static pool that can be dispersed).
Sure you can pay to deport some of them if you manage to track down where they are from but is that doable in general? And then there is always the moral element of whether it is 'right' to deport people back to countries that they left because they feared for their lives*.
BTW, as far as I know, France did do some evictions last year and then this year opened up the new 'official' camp.
*though yes presumably some were not fleeing horrors/devastation.
Forcing them to stay in government run shelters/camps > having them cause material damage to citizens, and endanger them. Not to mention the inevitable killing of a migrant by a truck driver or te other way around
Internment camps? How European.
Quote from: garbon on August 04, 2015, 07:19:36 AM
Internment camps? How European.
Well this is related to annoy her puzzling thing for me about illegal immigration in general: I thought it means the immigrant is not allowed to enter and stay in said country. But if this is so, why they are allowed to roam freely? What is the point of barring entry then? Just make it legal for everyone and it's much simpler.
Quote from: Tamas on August 04, 2015, 08:59:42 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 04, 2015, 07:19:36 AM
Internment camps? How European.
Well this is related to annoy her puzzling thing for me about illegal immigration in general: I thought it means the immigrant is not allowed to enter and stay in said country. But if this is so, why they are allowed to roam freely? What is the point of barring entry then? Just make it legal for everyone and it's much simpler.
Aren't many of these individuals asylum seekers? Given the wait times that could be seen for asylum approvals, it probably isn't practical or humane to keep immigrants detained until their asylum request has been accepted or rejected. Found one blurb from 2013 that said wait time in France was on average - 12 months.
Quote from: garbon on August 04, 2015, 09:26:55 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 04, 2015, 08:59:42 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 04, 2015, 07:19:36 AM
Internment camps? How European.
Well this is related to annoy her puzzling thing for me about illegal immigration in general: I thought it means the immigrant is not allowed to enter and stay in said country. But if this is so, why they are allowed to roam freely? What is the point of barring entry then? Just make it legal for everyone and it's much simpler.
Aren't many of these individuals asylum seekers? Given the wait times that could be seen for asylum approvals, it probably isn't practical or humane to keep immigrants detained until their asylum request has been accepted or rejected. Found one blurb from 2013 that said wait time in France was on average - 12 months.
Fair enough.
Still, disrupting traffic and damage to private property must be crimes even if the perpetrators are asylum seekers
A village in the Kleinwalser Valley in Vorarlberg, Austria is ready to take in 20 or more asylum seekers. The problem is, that place can only be reached by car from Germany (there's two districts in Austria where that is true, and it has a few implications; e.g. in those districts the German instead of the Austrian VAT rules apply).
Non-recognized asylum seekers, however, must not leave the country where their application is handled. Meaning that there's no legal way to get them to this place, because it would mean having to cross the border into Germany (and it gets worse if any of them needs a hospital visit).
For ten months the bureaucrazies (deliberate misspelling) in Germany and Austria try to figure out a way of getting refugees into this village. At the moment it looks like they may try to get people who had they applications for asylum accepted to move there, because they can move freely about the EU. But then again, this place is so remote, it's not exactly attractive to refugees.
Airlift?
Skis climbing gear and Alp guide? Like the olden days?
Quote from: Syt on August 05, 2015, 09:49:59 AM
A village in the Kleinwalser Valley in Vorarlberg, Austria is ready to take in 20 or more asylum seekers. The problem is, that place can only be reached by car from Germany (there's two districts in Austria where that is true, and it has a few implications; e.g. in those districts the German instead of the Austrian VAT rules apply).
Non-recognized asylum seekers, however, must not leave the country where their application is handled. Meaning that there's no legal way to get them to this place, because it would mean having to cross the border into Germany (and it gets worse if any of them needs a hospital visit).
For ten months the bureaucrazies (deliberate misspelling) in Germany and Austria try to figure out a way of getting refugees into this village. At the moment it looks like they may try to get people who had they applications for asylum accepted to move there, because they can move freely about the EU. But then again, this place is so remote, it's not exactly attractive to refugees.
Rather than wasting 10 months of man hours couldn't they just pay a thousand euros to hire a helicopter for the afternoon?
Can't be more expensive than a bunch of bureaucrats salaries.
I doubt they've spent much time during that 10 months actually thinking about the problem.
Meanwhile, the central asylum seeker application place for Austria, Traiskirchen has been closed because it's overcrowded with more than twice its capacity. Refugees are sleeping in tents or outside, and there's hundreds of unaccompanied minors (Vienna has now volunteered to take them in). Sanitary conditions are abysmal, there's limited medical services available, and nothing to do for the refugees (e.g. no activities to keep them busy in some way).
A second place was under construction in a town in Carinthia, in a former home for disabled war veterans. The local FPÖ mayor, with the backing of the population, thinks there's numerous building code violations, so he's put construction on immediate hold until this gets sorted out. <_<
For the time being, police stations will convert some of their holding cells into refugee quarters (that's gonna feel great if you've been prosecuted in your home country) while the search for more Lebensraum for Refugees continues.
http://www.thelocal.at/20150805/hurried-efforts-to-improve-inhumane-refugee-camp
QuoteEfforts to improve 'inhumane' camp
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelocal.at%2Fuserdata%2Fimages%2Farticle%2Fw468%2Fa0ed2e2f2706d1fec777435f97a08d5d5487577d5e0af6078ef7f9f6df776420.jpg&hash=717d6e1f3f516f5df1a09ede578d5207d66d9e52)
Austria's main refugee processing centre has stopped taking in any new asylum seekers from Wednesday as conditions at the severely overcrowded camp currently pose a health risk and the government is worried about an epidemic breaking out.
A health check and initial administrative steps for new asylum seekers will still be carried out at the Traiskirchen centre in Lower Austria, but they will then be sent on to accommodation in Austria's other provinces.
Human rights group Amnesty International is due to inspect the camp on Thursday, and hurried efforts have been made to clear rubbish and improve hygiene facilities.
Last week the UN described conditions at the camp as "dangerous and inhumane". The camp is designed to hold a maximum of 1,800 people but currently houses more than twice as many, around 4,000 refugees.
Nearly half of them do not have a bed and are sleeping in corridors, and under tarpaulins and tents outdoors. Many of the refugees sleeping outside are women and young children.
Austria, a country of 8.5 million people, received more than 28,000 asylum requests in 2014, three times the European average relative to population size.
It expects at least 75,000 asylum seekers to arrive by the end of this year, with a majority coming via Serbia and Hungary - the so-called 'Balkan route'.
Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner said that currently around 1,600 beds are needed per week for new asylum seekers, and that the situation at Traiskirchen has become "unsustainable".
She added that the provinces have made "a great effort in recent weeks to create new quarters for refugees fleeing from war, but that more refugees are arriving than we can accommodate in the short term".
She said the government will be supporting the provinces as best as it can by opening up police quarters and cells and setting up new tent camps and containers. The Red Cross has said it can provide an additional 500 beds.
The entire European Union is struggling to cope with a huge influx of refugees, many risking their lives to flee violence in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.
Almost 185,000 applied for asylum in the first quarter alone - a rise of 86 percent according to EU statistics agency Eurostat.
Keep in mind that the current refugee numbers are a fraction of what Austria took in from Hungary (1956), CSSR (1968) or ex-Yugoslavia in the mid-90s (115,000 people fled from Ex-Yugo to Austria, ca. 90,000 Bosnians stayed here).
I would find it important to label them migrants, not refugees. Not a big difference in how they should be treated, but an important one.
One of the things the forests on the Serbian-Hungarian border are full of, are teared Greek identity papers of refugees. They destroy it so there is no evidence they have already entered EU borders in Greece.
Someone who traverses a thousand miles on one of the most treacherous routes in the modern world must be pretty motivated. To gather the huge sum of money (by the standards of their home country) to pay to do this must mean they're also pretty entrepreneurial.
Maybe we should be absorbing these hardy, industrious folk into the economy to give lazy, indolent native Europeans a kick up the backside.
Quote from: Warspite on August 06, 2015, 04:50:16 AM
Someone who traverses a thousand miles on one of the most treacherous routes in the modern world must be pretty motivated. To gather the huge sum of money (by the standards of their home country) to pay to do this must mean they're also pretty entrepreneurial.
Maybe we should be absorbing these hardy, industrious folk into the economy to give lazy, indolent native Europeans a kick up the backside.
Yes, although ideally we would try to filter out the ones who would be incapable of integrating into the economy/job market.
Quote from: Warspite on August 06, 2015, 04:50:16 AM
Someone who traverses a thousand miles on one of the most treacherous routes in the modern world must be pretty motivated. To gather the huge sum of money (by the standards of their home country) to pay to do this must mean they're also pretty entrepreneurial.
Maybe we should be absorbing these hardy, industrious folk into the economy to give lazy, indolent native Europeans a kick up the backside.
There are legal channels to immigrate. Giving preferential treatment to people who decline their use seems a bit weird.
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2015, 12:24:58 AM
Keep in mind that the current refugee numbers are a fraction of what Austria took in from Hungary (1956), CSSR (1968) or ex-Yugoslavia in the mid-90s (115,000 people fled from Ex-Yugo to Austria, ca. 90,000 Bosnians stayed here).
"Current" refugee numbers are meaningless. This is an ever growing flow with no end in sight.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2015, 09:54:13 AM
There are legal channels to immigrate. Giving preferential treatment to people who decline their use seems a bit weird.
Yes, but to some people here, breaking all the rules to get what you want demonstrates that you've got a good work ethic and should be welcomed. Europe needs more criminals apparently.
:rolleyes:
Hey I'm just glad he is doubling down on the despicable bit so that my assessment holds true. ^_^
He's right about one thing, though. More people will come, and in bigger groups as conditions get worse. Of course the troglodyte kneejerk reaction is to throw them all back into the sea (literally), because the refugees are criminal Islamists who steal our women, take our jobs and leech off our welfare. They possibly even talk in the theatre.
Instead there should be serious efforts to
- help change the situation at the point of origin, so that people don't find traveling through deserts, minefields, and war torn regions, or giving their last possessions to trafickers preferable to staying home
- create an EU system geared towards dealing with the numbers of applicants in a humane fashion, so they don't have to sleep under buses to stay out of the rain or in converted jail cells, and that unaccompanied minors don't spend their days watching paint dry
- look at what the new arrivals can contribute to society
Are there bad apples among the asylum seekers? Of course, like in any group of people. But to hold them all guilty till proven innocent is the same as calling all Americans racist for the acts if a few lunatics.
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2015, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 06, 2015, 04:50:16 AM
Someone who traverses a thousand miles on one of the most treacherous routes in the modern world must be pretty motivated. To gather the huge sum of money (by the standards of their home country) to pay to do this must mean they're also pretty entrepreneurial.
Maybe we should be absorbing these hardy, industrious folk into the economy to give lazy, indolent native Europeans a kick up the backside.
There are legal channels to immigrate. Giving preferential treatment to people who decline their use seems a bit weird.
The legal channels are increasingly narrow, hence the increasing recourse to illegal means by desperate people trying to find a better life for themselves.
They're going to keep coming, and building a big wall around Europe isn't working. Some solution has to be found.
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2015, 11:30:42 PM
He's right about one thing, though. More people will come, and in bigger groups as conditions get worse. Of course the troglodyte kneejerk reaction is to throw them all back into the sea (literally), because the refugees are criminal Islamists who steal our women, take our jobs and leech off our welfare. They possibly even talk in the theatre.
Instead there should be serious efforts to
- help change the situation at the point of origin, so that people don't find traveling through deserts, minefields, and war torn regions, or giving their last possessions to trafickers preferable to staying home
- create an EU system geared towards dealing with the numbers of applicants in a humane fashion, so they don't have to sleep under buses to stay out of the rain or in converted jail cells, and that unaccompanied minors don't spend their days watching paint dry
- look at what the new arrivals can contribute to society
Are there bad apples among the asylum seekers? Of course, like in any group of people. But to hold them all guilty till proven innocent is the same as calling all Americans racist for the acts if a few lunatics.
Yes. Then again, none of this will happen.
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2015, 11:30:42 PM
- help change the situation at the point of origin, so that people don't find traveling through deserts, minefields, and war torn regions, or giving their last possessions to trafickers preferable to staying home
This sounds great, but will it stop people from trying to immigrate to wealthier countries? Even if we somehow stop those countries from being corrupt wastelands Europe will always be more functional and richer.
Sure, they might not take the most desperate routes but people will always want to live where life is better.
Quote from: Liep on August 07, 2015, 03:42:25 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2015, 11:30:42 PM
- help change the situation at the point of origin, so that people don't find traveling through deserts, minefields, and war torn regions, or giving their last possessions to trafickers preferable to staying home
This sounds great, but will it stop people from trying to immigrate to wealthier countries? Even if we somehow stop those countries from being corrupt wastelands Europe will always be more functional and richer.
Sure, they might not take the most desperate routes but people will always want to live where life is better.
Yes, but I suspect the amount of migrants would subside considerably if you don't have to worry whether your family will starve because of yet another drought, or if you will see your kids again who ahve been pressed into armed service by the local warlord.
Quote from: Syt on August 07, 2015, 03:52:18 AM
Quote from: Liep on August 07, 2015, 03:42:25 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2015, 11:30:42 PM
- help change the situation at the point of origin, so that people don't find traveling through deserts, minefields, and war torn regions, or giving their last possessions to trafickers preferable to staying home
This sounds great, but will it stop people from trying to immigrate to wealthier countries? Even if we somehow stop those countries from being corrupt wastelands Europe will always be more functional and richer.
Sure, they might not take the most desperate routes but people will always want to live where life is better.
Yes, but I suspect the amount of migrants would subside considerably if you don't have to worry whether your family will starve because of yet another drought, or if you will see your kids again who ahve been pressed into armed service by the local warlord.
Sure, helping with irrigation and flood prevention etc. is very well and something we already do. Removing warlords has been pretty fucking difficult though. What I'm saying is, it's a big fucking world and people are asshats.
I don't know. What I do think though is you're right in saying we need to see the potential in immigration instead of writing it off as a burden, but looking at the political landscape in Europe right now I say that boat has sailed.
Quote from: Liep on August 07, 2015, 04:04:14 AM
I don't know. What I do think though is you're right in saying we need to see the potential in immigration instead of writing it off as a burden, but looking at the political landscape in Europe right now I say that boat has sailed.
negative effects are also part of that potential. And it's time for certain parts of the political spectrum to accept that, just like other parts of that spectrum need to accept that there are positive effects as well.
Just like it would be a nice thing if the distinction between asylum-seekers and economical migrants needs to made much more clearly. For the sake of the asylumseekers.
Mass-immigration however, is something different, by virtue of scale and duration. With a lot more potential for negative effects. And what we're seeing is mass-migration. One that is likely to grow bigger, with more potential negative effects, as populations in the shitty parts of world continue to grow, effects of climate change get worse (assuming they of course do get worse) and assuming the shitty parts of the world don't get their houses in order.
Mass-migrations usually aren't happy affairs. Including those on the receiving end.
And finally, there is always that one question: "At what point is enough enough?"
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 07, 2015, 05:19:50 AM
...
And finally, there is always that one question: "At what point is enough enough?"
When the 'native' population has been largely minoritized? Which seems to be the goal in certain circles...
G.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2015, 11:30:42 PM
He's right about one thing everything, though.
Fixed. ;)
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 07, 2015, 05:19:50 AM
negative effects are also part of that potential. And it's time for certain parts of the political spectrum to accept that, just like other parts of that spectrum need to accept that there are positive effects as well.
Just like it would be a nice thing if the distinction between asylum-seekers and economical migrants needs to made much more clearly. For the sake of the asylumseekers.
Mass-immigration however, is something different, by virtue of scale and duration. With a lot more potential for negative effects. And what we're seeing is mass-migration. One that is likely to grow bigger, with more potential negative effects, as populations in the shitty parts of world continue to grow, effects of climate change get worse (assuming they of course do get worse) and assuming the shitty parts of the world don't get their houses in order.
Mass-migrations usually aren't happy affairs. Including those on the receiving end.
And finally, there is always that one question: "At what point is enough enough?"
Amen.
The Great Solution We Don't Need to Do Anything Else Apart from Hate Campaigns on Posters fence on (well, close to) Hungary's border with Serbia has a few weak spots.
Like railroads:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.444.hu%2FD_MTZ20150805007.jpg&hash=022911e38fb7d3d7edb73b49141c373a7fc96208)
Don't worry, there's solutions for that.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbilder.augsburger-allgemeine.de%2Fimg%2Fneuburg%2Fcrop19287041%2F0297218182-ctopTeaser%2FLindau-251a.jpg&hash=12dc15ed1d981f642dc262637487f2077f204940)
Quote from: Warspite on August 07, 2015, 03:04:42 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 06, 2015, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 06, 2015, 04:50:16 AM
Someone who traverses a thousand miles on one of the most treacherous routes in the modern world must be pretty motivated. To gather the huge sum of money (by the standards of their home country) to pay to do this must mean they're also pretty entrepreneurial.
Maybe we should be absorbing these hardy, industrious folk into the economy to give lazy, indolent native Europeans a kick up the backside.
There are legal channels to immigrate. Giving preferential treatment to people who decline their use seems a bit weird.
The legal channels are increasingly narrow, hence the increasing recourse to illegal means by desperate people trying to find a better life for themselves.
They're going to keep coming, and building a big wall around Europe isn't working. Some solution has to be found.
The rule of law shouldn't be discarded without careful consideration of the consequences IMHO.
So a Syrian immigrant just cancelled his asylum application to Germany saying: "I came here because I was scared in my home country, but here I'm even more scared".
Turns out daily attacks and humiliations from German country dwellers are worse than civil war. Ouch.
Some of the posters here need to be sent to Syria.
Quote from: Liep on August 08, 2015, 09:22:04 AM
So a Syrian immigrant just cancelled his asylum application to Germany saying: "I came here because I was scared in my home country, but here I'm even more scared".
Turns out daily attacks and humiliations from German country dwellers are worse than civil war. Ouch.
There's some good example and some bad, but yeah, quite a few people are scared shitless by change and foreigners and it drives them to lash out.
One town in Sachsen-Anhalt had the mayor step down, because he had received threats, and he felt left alone by authorities. Shortly after that, a house that was earmarked for housing fugitives was set on fire.
A few months have passed, and 20 or so refugees have arrived. The refugees aren't targeted by attacks or remarks - instead it's the volunteers helping them who are blanked by their former friends, and who are told that they shouldn't forget that they're Germans.
Quote from: Liep on August 08, 2015, 09:22:04 AM
So a Syrian immigrant just cancelled his asylum application to Germany saying: "I came here because I was scared in my home country, but here I'm even more scared".
Merkel worse than Assad AND Daesh? :hmm:
I recently saw a pretty horrible BBC documentary- asylum seeker kids get their application turned down but since they're kids are allowed to stay, given to foster families, grow into pretty normal British teenagers.....then when they reach 18 they're shipped back to Afghanistan. :bleeding:
Also saw something about this Hungarian fence- it is all a cunning ploy to redirect the migrants to Romania.
This 'first point of entry' law really needs throwing out. Ideally we should be pooling assylum seekers not just Europe wide but amongst all free and democratic countries.
Problem with that plan is, being free, democratic countries our voters get to say "no, thanks".
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 08, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Problem with that plan is, being free, democratic countries our voters get to say "no, thanks".
That makes you a cunt country.
Though the US is usually rather good for such immigrants right?
I suppose.
How many Middle Easterners did you meet in Japan, btw?
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2015, 01:30:50 PM
That makes you a cunt country.
Though the US is usually rather good for such immigrants right?
Asylum tends to be granted in the US only to people who come from countries we consider bad guys.
On the other hand the green card lottery lets in buttloads of people from just about anywhere.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 08, 2015, 01:34:59 PM
I suppose.
How many Middle Easterners did you meet in Japan, btw?
Quite a few actually. Lots of Iranians moved to Japan due to some weird deal between the countries a decade ago where it was very easy for Iranians to make the move.
When Japan takes assylum seekers they tend to be Burmese. Though they aren't very good at it.
Quote from: Liep on August 08, 2015, 09:22:04 AM
So a Syrian immigrant just cancelled his asylum application to Germany saying: "I came here because I was scared in my home country, but here I'm even more scared".
Turns out daily attacks and humiliations from German country dwellers are worse than civil war. Ouch.
That's disappointing. There are many legitimate refugees among the Syrians. :(
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2015, 01:30:50 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 08, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Problem with that plan is, being free, democratic countries our voters get to say "no, thanks".
That makes you a cunt country.
Though the US is usually rather good for such immigrants right?
You guys have sort of an asylum seeker debt with us. We had millions of people flee your countries to ours.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 08, 2015, 02:50:48 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 08, 2015, 01:30:50 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 08, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Problem with that plan is, being free, democratic countries our voters get to say "no, thanks".
That makes you a cunt country.
Though the US is usually rather good for such immigrants right?
You guys have sort of an asylum seeker debt with us. We had millions of people flee your countries to ours.
I think our experience with your backpackers more than has made up for that.
"I'M ON MY GAP YEAR".
An anti-nazi blogger in Germany has issued a statement that he's giving up his work. He says he's become used to be called names and generally threatened with violence. However, it appears one of his "fans" called the police, claiming to be him, and saying he just murdered his wife. When the blogger got the call, the police were already in his house looking for the body. This together with death threats to him and a student (and the student's relatives, private addresses of all "targets" were part of the threat) who opened an online petition against anti-immigrant protests in front of homes for asylum seekers have moved him to capitulate.
His final point: the majority is silent and watches from behind the curtains - just like Mrs Merkel who has remained very silent about anti-immigration protests and violence in recent weeks and months.
The ability of a small group to destroy people while maintaining the appearance of an anonymous mob is a horrifying fact of our age.
Germans cannot do anything in moderation.
News! Film at 11.
http://www.thelocal.at/20150814/no-respect-for-human-rights-at-traiskirchen-refugee-camp
Quote'No respect' for human rights at Traiskirchen camp
Amnesty International has complained of inhumane conditions at Austria's reception centre for asylum seekers in Traiskirchen, in a new report released on Friday.
Amnesty Austria General Secretary Heinz Patzelt said inspectors who visited the centre last week were particularly concerned about under age refugees who appeared to have no-one to care for them.
He also criticised the fact that parents were not always housed in the same quarters as their children and that women had to shower in the same facilities as the men, with no curtains or privacy.
Patzelt said that he was "extremely angry" and appealed to political leaders to accept responsibility for asylum seekers, saying Austria had the resources to be able to care for refugees adequately but lacked the political will.
"Traiskirchen is a symptom of a far-reaching structural failure within Austria to dealing with asylum seekers," the Amnesty report said. It went on to criticise the severe overcrowding at the camp, inadequate medical and social care, and administrative hurdles which it said are easily avoidable.
The Amnesty team visited the camp for several hours and spoke to 30 asylum seekers. Last week 4,500 people were housed there, with hundreds sleeping in tents and some even forced to sleep in the open air outside the grounds of the centre - including pregnant women and women with newborn children. Traiskirchen can only accommodate a maximum of 2,000 people.
Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner (ÖVP) has called for solidarity among the various European countries dealing with an influx of refugees from war torn countries, and said that it was "clear to everyone" that the situation "is not sustainable".
The number of asylum requests in Austria rose above 28,300 between January and June alone - as many as the whole of 2014 - and officials expect the total to reach 80,000 this year.
Most arrive from neighbouring Hungary, which, like Austria, is a member of the EU and the passport-free Schengen zone.
Also, the farm of a married couple, who've won awards for their anti-Nazi activism, was set ablaze this week. Luckily only a barn burned down. Apparently their small village in North-East Germany had until a few years ago a signpost pointing to Braunau.
Several NGOs, including Doctors Without Borders, offered to help with the medical situation in the Austrian main camp - they've been rejected repeatedly by the interior ministry, because the running of the camps have been contracted to a private third party.
After the AI report, the interior ministry agreed to allow DWB into the camp, but only if they're accompanied by public health officers. DWB reject that, insisting on their independence and that having a member of state authority accompanying them would undermine their efforts to build rapport with the refugees.
That is very, well, European.
It's harmless compared to what's happening on the Greek island of Kos.
Quote from: Syt on August 17, 2015, 09:47:14 AM
It's harmless compared to what's happening on the Greek island of Kos.
They've chatered a ship as living quarters. Wonder what their plan is :ph34r: :pirate
Quote from: Syt on August 17, 2015, 09:47:14 AM
It's harmless compared to what's happening on the Greek island of Kos.
Yeah but as I keep saying, this whole thing is just showing what a joke of a union the EU is. Only reason Greece is crumbling under the migrants is that they want to go further west. Each and every migrant in Greece is one less migrant in Germany, or France, or the UK.
Now of course those countries fully know this, so their answer seem to be: OMG INCREASE BORDER CONTROLS. OMG KEEP TO DUBLIN TREATY.
Instead of sending money, materials and bordercontrol/police officers to help out.
Its all well to try and stop the migrant wave on the frontiers, but then act like its actually your common frontier, not some alien country. Jeesh.
Absolutely agreed.
Also, a proper distribution system within the EU, based on population and economic capabilities must be established.
I concur. but it's easier scoring points by putting the problem with the south european countries :mad:
Quote from: Syt on August 17, 2015, 10:23:24 AM
Absolutely agreed.
Also, a proper distribution system within the EU, based on population and economic capabilities must be established.
useless as these people will still go to the west.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 17, 2015, 11:19:12 AM
useless as these people will still go to the west.
If so, we shouldn't make it the problem of Greece or Hungary. If people want to come to e.g. Germany, Germany should handle it.
Quote from: Liep on August 08, 2015, 09:22:04 AM
So a Syrian immigrant just cancelled his asylum application to Germany saying: "I came here because I was scared in my home country, but here I'm even more scared".
Emogrant :rolleyes:
Quote from: Zanza on August 17, 2015, 11:32:29 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 17, 2015, 11:19:12 AM
useless as these people will still go to the west.
If so, we shouldn't make it the problem of Greece or Hungary. If people want to come to e.g. Germany, Germany should handle it.
and what if handling it means making sure those people are stuck in Greece?...
Burdening someone else with your issues is not how I understand "handling" something. But your mileage may differ.
People are fleeing from Germany?
Quote from: Zanza on August 17, 2015, 02:02:50 PM
Burdening someone else with your issues is not how I understand "handling" something. But your mileage may differ.
You must not work in public service.
But joking aside I think this is a pretty weak and non-functional argument. If the EU exists there should be an EU policy. The idea that Germany should be able to dictate specific treatment for immigrants headed for Germany is practically impossible. I mean think how ridiculous it would be if Illinois was supposed to handle immigrants crossing Texas (and Oklahoma and so forth) territory headed for Illinois? Ridiculous. We have a Federal Government for that. This is what the EU is supposed to handle, and it doesn't because confederations never work.
You are right, but at the moment, the EU is just used as a vehicle to do exactly what crazy ivan describes, namely to make sure the refugees are stuck in their first port of call. Which is not what these people want nor what would be fair among the partner countries in the EU. So the existing EU policy here is a complete and utter failure. Germany should work towards changing that, not cementing it.
To work with your analogy, the current EU policy is akin to making all immigration from Latin America the sole problem of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas with negligible support from Washington DC.
Quote from: Zanza on August 17, 2015, 02:51:51 PM
To work with your analogy, the current EU policy is akin to making all immigration from Latin America the sole problem of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas with negligible support from Washington DC.
That actually has some reality in it. And is a reason California is going bankrupt. Texas doesn't have that problem because it doesn't really offer much in the way of government services.
Germany now expects 650,000-750,000 asylum seekers in 2015. That will really stress our system that is not built for that kind of numbers.
Quote from: Zanza on August 18, 2015, 03:22:10 AM
Germany now expects 650,000-750,000 asylum seekers in 2015. That will really stress our system that is not built for that kind of numbers.
are all of the asylum seekers or are a great many actually economic immigrants.
The fact that these two categories are almost used interchangebly (and also the fact that many non-asylumseeking-migrants abuse the system by pretending to need asylum) is drastically decreasing the support for the asylum-system -given the numbers- I feel. And that can only be to the detriment of those who genuinly need asylum.
but I've said it before: there's worse to come and there will be a backlash. Politicians have too long ignored what the populace said about immigration, instead pretending it to be all positive, all the time. That is now over, or will be soon.
Better hang on to your hat.
There could easily be many times that number of legit asylum seekers. Much of the Middle East is pretty fucked up right now.
In Norway, complaints are made about how "mass immigration" is changing society. Well, here are the actual facts:
- Norway only accept refugees and asylum seekers
- Norway is a member of the Schengen treaty and part of the economic union, so most "immigrants" are Poles, Swedes and from the god-forsaken Baltics
Another irony in this picture is that those males who complain the most about immigrants usually have Filipina or Thai wives.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fu9oqSWm.jpg&hash=488e8e3e7a9fad55756f2c3939670e91e851d134)
Quote from: Norgy on August 18, 2015, 07:19:16 AM
In Norway, complaints are made about how "mass immigration" is changing society. Well, here are the actual facts:
- Norway only accept refugees and asylum seekers
- Norway is a member of the Schengen treaty and part of the economic union, so most "immigrants" are Poles, Swedes and from the god-forsaken Baltics
Another irony in this picture is that those males who complain the most about immigrants usually have Filipina or Thai wives.
Immigration scares usually have little to do with facts. Believe me I should know.
Mass immigration is a good thing, it tends to create highly competitive dynamic societies. But that is probably why people find it so threatening. I shudder to think how moribund and backwards Texas would be without all those immigrants coming in. Without mass immigration there would be no Ted Cruz for Spicey to cruise with.
And yes it is normal that demagogues do not actually believe the things they say, it is about catering to the whims of the mob.
In my opinion anybody who wants to come to the US should be allowed to come provided they are not some criminal nutcase. But those people are better at sneaking in anyway, anti-immigration laws only punish the law abiding.
If Europe wanted to be this dynamic world leading society again that is what they would do.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 18, 2015, 03:58:09 AM
There could easily be many times that number of legit asylum seekers. Much of the Middle East is pretty fucked up right now.
:yes:
Quote from: Syt on August 18, 2015, 07:24:48 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fu9oqSWm.jpg&hash=488e8e3e7a9fad55756f2c3939670e91e851d134)
Well that is kind of the point isn't it? Shit people still need to eat. They don't want a bunch of hard working people coming in and changing the economy and society.
Funny. And largely valid. But ignores the potential for exploitation and wage deflation.
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2015, 08:06:46 AM
Well that is kind of the point isn't it? Shit people still need to eat. They don't want a bunch of hard working people coming in and changing the economy and society.
Well, in the mid term I think we will have more people who are useless to the job market either way, because low qualification jobs are ever on the decline, and if computer algorithms continue to improve, low to mid level white collar jobs might see the next extinction wave.
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2015, 07:45:33 AM
If Europe wanted to be this dynamic world leading society again that is what they would do.
Well, I agree. Most of my countrymen don't.
We're standing in the middle of a humanitarian crisis on the shores of Southern Europe. Yet we wash our hands. Shameful and unacceptable.
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2015, 07:45:33 AM
In my opinion anybody who wants to come to the US should be allowed to come provided they are not some criminal nutcase.
You sure about that? If this is official US policy, tens of millions of mainland Chinese will arrive at your shores in no time.
http://www.thelocal.at/20150818/angry-backlash-to-austrias-new-asylum-law
QuoteAngry backlash to new asylum law
The leader of Austria's right-wing Freedom Party (FPÖ), Heinz-Christian Strache, has reacted angrily to the news that the coalition government has reached agreement with the Greens on new legislation that would make communities across the country obliged to take in asylum seekers.
The SPÖ and the ÖVP have been struggling to respond to the number of asylum requests, which rose above 28,300 between January and June alone - as many as for the whole of 2014. Officials expect the total to reach 80,000 this year.
The federal government has struggled to provide accommodation for people as many local authorities have refused to accept any refugees.
The draft law means communities who haven't yet taken in any asylum seekers will now be obliged to - with the quota set to up to 1.5 percent of the local population.
The coalition had needed the support of the Greens as the legislation requires a change to the constitution, and therefore needs a two thirds majority in parliament.
Heinz Christian-Strache voiced his anger at the quotas on Tuesday, saying that they have been imposed on the Austrian people in an undemocratic manner. "It's monstrous to try and simply push this law which is hostile to the population through parliament," he said. He is now calling for a petition (Volksbegehren) to be held on the matter.
The draft law still needs to be passed by parliament but is expected to come into force in October.
Human rights lawyer Georg Bürstmayr told the ORF that the legislation is necessary as the federal government is made responsible for human rights issues by European law and "it is not up to the provinces to make decisions about human rights in a democracy".
Amnesty International recently called conditions at Austria's main refugee camp a "disgraceful" violation of human rights. The Traiskirchen camp, 20 kilometres south of Vienna, has had to stop accepting new arrivals because of disastrous sanitary conditions and hopeless overcrowding.
Built to house 1,800 people, the camp and an adjacent government building are currently home to 4,000 men, women and children.
Up till now the federal government was reliant on goodwill from the states, districts and towns to voluntarily accept refugees. As might be expected, the number of volunteers was low, and if an area would take in refugees it would often be a token gesture.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 18, 2015, 05:51:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2015, 07:45:33 AM
In my opinion anybody who wants to come to the US should be allowed to come provided they are not some criminal nutcase.
You sure about that? If this is official US policy, tens of millions of mainland Chinese will arrive at your shores in no time.
At first sure. It would even out over time. The Mexicans are not really coming anymore for example.
Quote from: Norgy on August 18, 2015, 03:08:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2015, 07:45:33 AM
If Europe wanted to be this dynamic world leading society again that is what they would do.
Well, I agree. Most of my countrymen don't.
We're standing in the middle of a humanitarian crisis on the shores of Southern Europe. Yet we wash our hands. Shameful and unacceptable.
Taking refugees and immigrants are different. Refugees would have preferred to stay home but couldn't as opposed to immigrants who really want to be in Norway or wherever. Refugees are more problematic and that is why the EU should step in here and ration them to each member so the burden is spread equally. Or rather it would be nice if it could, I do not really know the EU Constitution that well. Damn thing is like 700 pages.
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 08:53:47 AM
Taking refugees and immigrants are different. Refugees would have preferred to stay home but couldn't as opposed to immigrants who really want to be in Norway or wherever. Refugees are more problematic and that is why the EU should step in here and ration them to each member so the burden is spread equally. Or rather it would be nice if it could, I do not really know the EU Constitution that well. Damn thing is like 700 pages.
It took Austria months to get to a point where the federal state can distribute the refugees equally across the country, and the new law will only come into effect in October.
Imagine how much harder it would be within Europe.
It's very much a situation of everyone for themselves, because no one really wants to take them in for fear of public opinion (Foreigners! Muslims! Leeches!), and it disproportionately affects the border states who are left alone with their problem.
Quote from: Syt on August 19, 2015, 09:00:06 AM
It's very much a situation of everyone for themselves, because no one really wants to take them in for fear of public opinion (Foreigners! Muslims! Leeches!), and it disproportionately affects the border states who are left alone with their problem.
And in that situation nobody wants to be the sucker left with all the refugees. Hence the problem and why the EU, or somebody, needs to step forward.
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 09:08:02 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 19, 2015, 09:00:06 AM
It's very much a situation of everyone for themselves, because no one really wants to take them in for fear of public opinion (Foreigners! Muslims! Leeches!), and it disproportionately affects the border states who are left alone with their problem.
And in that situation nobody wants to be the sucker left with all the refugees. Hence the problem and why the EU, or somebody, needs to step forward.
Unless some miracle happens this will be the end of the EU as we know it.
Quote from: Tamas on August 19, 2015, 09:08:43 AM
Unless some miracle happens this will be the end of the EU as we know it.
No offense but the EU as we know it is not all that.
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 08:53:47 AM
Quote from: Norgy on August 18, 2015, 03:08:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2015, 07:45:33 AM
If Europe wanted to be this dynamic world leading society again that is what they would do.
Well, I agree. Most of my countrymen don't.
We're standing in the middle of a humanitarian crisis on the shores of Southern Europe. Yet we wash our hands. Shameful and unacceptable.
Taking refugees and immigrants are different. Refugees would have preferred to stay home but couldn't as opposed to immigrants who really want to be in Norway or wherever. Refugees are more problematic and that is why the EU should step in here and ration them to each member so the burden is spread equally. Or rather it would be nice if it could, I do not really know the EU Constitution that well. Damn thing is like 700 pages.
This is not going to happen. As much as some of us want it to.
There is no political will to take in more refugees. The Labour Party promised to take in 10 000 Syrians this year if elected. Well, it wasn't an election year, and they soon went back on that, promising just 8 000. I'd happily see another well-educated, talented pool of Syrians in my hometown. Say, 1000. Refugees may have the same statur internationally, but there is a huge difference between taking in a number of Bosnjaks (who have been nothing but a boon for Norway), Somaliis (who cost a lot generally, and seem unwilling to be anything but Somalis) and Arabs. The Arabs and the Kurds are great immigrants. They create their own jobs, learn the language (well, at least some of it) and are pleasant people. One guy gave me a hug in his store when I had bought my weekly ration of spices and veg there. "Good man", he said.
Norway's been pretty much sheltered from the bad influences from the 2008 crisis. There are jobs, there's spending, but we are starting to feel it. The Conservative/Progress Party cabinet has cut taxes on property and on wealth to nothing, hoping it will spur more activity. You know what helps? Slashing the corporate tax like in Ireland. Like the Labour Party did.
Quote from: Tamas
Unless some miracle happens this will be the end of the EU as we know it.
Why? It does not negate any of the advantages the member states get from EU membership...
Quote from: Zanza on August 19, 2015, 09:36:42 AM
Quote from: Tamas
Unless some miracle happens this will be the end of the EU as we know it.
Why? It does not negate any of the advantages the member states get from EU membership...
One of the advantages that will eventually go because of this is free border crossings, for example
An Arab never hugged me :angry:
Recently a Hungarian journalist pretended to be a Russian-ethnicity refugee/migrant from Kyrgyzistan entering from Serbia, to experience the process the migrants went through.
His report would be way too long to translate, but was quite interesting. To summarise, apart from once incident of totally unwarranted screaming abuse, the policemen assigned to the job of handling the migrants are mostly staying professional, although they do vent pressure by shit-talking the migrants in Hungarian.
But they provide cold food, pork-free when asked, and try to pay attention to keeping nationalities grouped together and families as well.
Then again, almost none of the officers he encountered spoke anything better than most basic English, so its not exactly smooth.
However, my conclusion from his report is that the system created for processing these asylum-seekers is already cracking under the pressure as it was never meant to handle this size. Worst part was probably how they closed the migrants in what are basically prison cells for 48 hours so they stay put until properly processed.
And of course the few stories he heard from other migrants just show how impossible it is to differentiate between an "economic migrant" and a refugee (BTW it seemed to him that most people were cagey about where they came from).
For example, this 19 years old kid from Mali who dreams of being a footballer in Finland: he is Christian, and he left his hometown literally in a hurry, when a bunch of Tuareg attacked them and his uncled yelled at him to run, and to go toward Ghana where he would meet him. He has never seen him again.
He spent some time in Turkey but was constantly asked if he was a Muslim, so decided to go for a Christian country.
So, for example, he is technically not a refugee. But I can't blame him for doing what he is doing. And he can't be sent back to Mali.
So yeah, this situation is fucked up.
One other thing the journalist was surpised about is the recent development of more and more Africans entering from Serbia. It seems like quite a detour, but it would appear they go via ship from Libya to Turkey, and then walk from there.
Quote from: Zanza on August 18, 2015, 03:22:10 AM
Germany now expects 650,000-750,000 asylum seekers in 2015. That will really stress our system that is not built for that kind of numbers.
The government has corrected its estimate from yesterday and now expects up to 800,000 asylum seekers. :huh:
Development of the last ten years shows why 800,000 is really a lot. In brackets acceptance rate.
2005 42908 [ 6,5 ]
2006 30100 [ 6,3 ]
2007 30303 [ 27,5 ]
2008 28018 [ 37,7 ]
2009 33033 [ 33,8 ]
2010 48589 [ 21,6 ]
2011 53347 [ 22,3 ]
2012 77651 [ 27,7 ]
2013 127023 [ 24,9 ]
2014 202834 [ 31,5 ]
Country of origin of asylum seekers in percent and the percentage of accepted asylum requests in the brackets:
Syria - 22,3 [ 85,4 ]
Albania - 17,8 [ 0,4 ]
Afghanistan - 6,3 [ 41,0 ]
Iraq - 6,0 [ 89,3 ]
Serbia - 4,3 [ 0,1 ]
Kosovo - 4,2 [ 0,3 ]
Eritrea - 3,3 [ 73,0 ]
Macedonia - 3,0 [ 0,3 ]
Pakistan - 2,5
Montenegro - 2,3
other - 28,0
I guess someone should tell the Western Balkans economic migrants that they generally won't get asylum in Germany... :wacko:
You mean like the ad campaign the German government is running there, telling them that 99.8% of applications from there get rejected? :P
QuoteFor example, this 19 years old kid from Mali who dreams of being a footballer in Finland: he is Christian, and he left his hometown literally in a hurry, when a bunch of Tuareg attacked them and his uncled yelled at him to run, and to go toward Ghana where he would meet him. He has never seen him again.
He spent some time in Turkey but was constantly asked if he was a Muslim, so decided to go for a Christian country.
So, for example, he is technically not a refugee. But I can't blame him for doing what he is doing. And he can't be sent back to Mali.
How isn't he a refugee? It sounds like it to me.
I can understand why people flee Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq or Eritrea. But what's so terrible in the Western Balkans that has triggered this mass emigration? :huh:
@ Tyr
Maybe not in the official sense? Like in America, we have Cuban refugees who were like officially booted out of Cuba and have (though maybe this has changed due to recent diplomatic thawing?) special refugee status in the United States.
Quote from: Zanza on August 19, 2015, 01:09:17 PM
I can understand why people flee Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq or Eritrea. But what's so terrible in the Western Balkans that has triggered this mass emigration? :huh:
Crippling shortage of track suits.
Quote from: Zanza on August 19, 2015, 01:09:17 PM
I can understand why people flee Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq or Eritrea. But what's so terrible in the Western Balkans that has triggered this mass emigration? :huh:
Corruption, crime, crappy political and economic outlook with no hope of improvement. I've talked to some Serbs here and they say that Serbia still hasn't fully recovered economically from last year's floods.
Looks like Slowakia will deny non christian refugees (i.e. muslims) asylum.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33986738 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33986738)
D'afuq?
Quote"We could take 800 Muslims but we don't have any mosques in Slovakia so how can Muslims be integrated if they are not going to like it here?"
Wow. :lol:
Quote from: Malicious Intent on August 19, 2015, 01:18:10 PM
Looks like Slowakia will deny non christian refugees (i.e. muslims) asylum.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33986738 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33986738)
If they agree to take all the Christians that would be nice. Poor bastards are having a rough time of it back home.
Not that Slovakia is a great place to be or anything.
But who is going to take all the Alawites, Druze, and Yazidis? :(
Quote from: Syt on August 19, 2015, 01:20:10 PM
D'afuq?
Quote"We could take 800 Muslims but we don't have any mosques in Slovakia so how can Muslims be integrated if they are not going to like it here?"
Wow. :lol:
Slovakia is a special place full of special people.
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 01:22:04 PM
But who is going to take all the Alawites, Druze, and Yazidis? :(
The Yazidis should feel right at home in Germany. According to Wikipedia, there already are nearly as many of them here as in Iraq (550k to 650k). :huh:
Edit: The 550k number seems to be bollocks. While Germany is in any case the country with the biggest Yazidi Diaspora, other sources put their number at 100-200k.
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 01:22:55 PM
Slovakia is a special place full of special people.
It's a statement I would expect from an uneducated, unemployed, xenophobic bumpkin in the boondocks, but not from a ministry spokesman in a Central European country. It's really embarrassing.
A religious minority persecuted by the genocidal Daesh is pretty much the dictionary definition of an asylum seeker. So let the Yazidis come here and find peace.
Quote from: Syt on August 17, 2015, 10:23:24 AM
Absolutely agreed.
Also, a proper distribution system within the EU, based on population and economic capabilities must be established.
There's no need for a distribution system. The market can easily do it.
Not so long ago Spain received a crapload of people. Then the crisis hit and the tide was reversed. Why? Because there were no jobs to be had.
Just let the refugees go wherever they please. They will go wherever they can make a living. Problem solved.
What if they don't necessarily want a job?
That's when you revoke refugee status and send them back to their country of origin.
What does wanting a job have to do with being a refugee?
Quote from: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 10:06:16 AM
An Arab never hugged me :angry:
Try it. It's like kittens, but better.
Quote from: derspiess on August 19, 2015, 02:01:36 PM
What if they don't necessarily want a job?
they they come to Belgium Enough lefties here who'll make sure they get a stipend and a home from the state. :glare: (ours has to be the most fucked up immigration system of western europe)
Quote from: Iormlund on August 19, 2015, 01:55:00 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 17, 2015, 10:23:24 AM
Absolutely agreed.
Also, a proper distribution system within the EU, based on population and economic capabilities must be established.
There's no need for a distribution system. The market can easily do it.
Not so long ago Spain received a crapload of people. Then the crisis hit and the tide was reversed. Why? Because there were no jobs to be had.
Just let the refugees go wherever they please. They will go wherever they can make a living. Problem solved.
Spain also has the advantage of being the first port of call.
Britain isn't so hot either but still people take crazy risks trying to get in...only to be bitterly disappointed.
Refugees need support when they first arrive. You can't expect some random guy who is possibly mentally shaken having been through some horrible shit to jump straight into work.
As said earlier in the thread several times we do need to share out the refugees.
In Europe of course there is free movement. Even if a guy is assigned to Romania he can still try and get a job in Denmark.... but make it so there won't be any help for him there. In Romania meanwhile he has the kind of support governments should be offering to refugees.
Quote from: Tyr on August 19, 2015, 02:23:47 PM
Refugees need support when they first arrive. You can't expect some random guy who is possibly mentally shaken having been through some horrible shit to jump straight into work.
And Greece/Spain/Hungary should give them support ... and a ride to wherever they want to go next.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 19, 2015, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 19, 2015, 02:23:47 PM
Refugees need support when they first arrive. You can't expect some random guy who is possibly mentally shaken having been through some horrible shit to jump straight into work.
And Greece/Spain/Hungary should give them support ... and a ride to wherever they want to go next.
Then you've got thousands of unemployable 3rd world beggars on the streets of London.
No thanks.
They should be forced to at least try and give the country they're assigned to a go for a few months unless they can find a job elsewhere.
And what exactly are you offering said country in return?
The BPL?
Quote from: Iormlund on August 19, 2015, 02:37:47 PM
And what exactly are you offering said country in return?
Immigrants to offset their population decline and a bit of economic stimulus.
You must be kidding. What kind of stimulus you think an uneducated Somali will provide in a country with 15-25% unemployment?
Quote from: Iormlund on August 19, 2015, 03:04:18 PM
You must be kidding. What kind of stimulus you think an uneducated Somali will provide in a country with 15-25% unemployment?
The money he is given to live off.
And the funding that will be put into the various support programmes.
(also unemployment actually tends to be less of a problem in several eastern european countries than in many western european countries. Some areas actually have problems due to the amount of young workers that have gone to seek work in the west.)
That doesn't quite make sense.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 03:18:26 PM
That doesn't quite make sense.
It's true though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11454795/Campaign-to-lure-Poles-back-home-amid-fears-of-brain-drain-to-Britain.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/poland-launches-campaign-to-lure-back-migrant-workers-814747.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/11/poland-and-eu
There's a reason why those youngsters have left for the West.
There's absolutely no sane reason to make people spend a year in -- say -- rural Latvia, against their will. It is extremely unlikely that they'll know the local language, and will have no compelling reason to learn it. They will just pick up and resume their journey as soon as possible.
Quote from: Tyr on August 19, 2015, 03:21:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 03:18:26 PM
That doesn't quite make sense.
It's true though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11454795/Campaign-to-lure-Poles-back-home-amid-fears-of-brain-drain-to-Britain.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11454795/Campaign-to-lure-Poles-back-home-amid-fears-of-brain-drain-to-Britain.html)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/poland-launches-campaign-to-lure-back-migrant-workers-814747.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/poland-launches-campaign-to-lure-back-migrant-workers-814747.html)
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/11/poland-and-eu (http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/11/poland-and-eu)
Okay, maybe I should have been more clear. How does giving money to someone pay for the funding of the giving money to someone?
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 03:28:26 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 19, 2015, 03:21:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 19, 2015, 03:18:26 PM
That doesn't quite make sense.
It's true though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11454795/Campaign-to-lure-Poles-back-home-amid-fears-of-brain-drain-to-Britain.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11454795/Campaign-to-lure-Poles-back-home-amid-fears-of-brain-drain-to-Britain.html)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/poland-launches-campaign-to-lure-back-migrant-workers-814747.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/poland-launches-campaign-to-lure-back-migrant-workers-814747.html)
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/11/poland-and-eu (http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/11/poland-and-eu)
Okay, maybe I should have been more clear. How does giving money to someone pay for the funding of the giving money to someone?
:huh:
It doesn't.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 19, 2015, 03:25:31 PM
There's a reason why those youngsters have left for the West.
There's absolutely no sane reason to make people spend a year in -- say -- rural Latvia, against their will. It is extremely unlikely that they'll know the local language, and will have no compelling reason to learn it. They will just pick up and resume their journey as soon as possible.
Well don't send them to rural Latvia then. Send them to somewhere they stand a chance of actually getting a job and integrating.
As I said in my first post it shouldn't just be some random "Oh, you're a French speaking guy with family in Belgium? Lets send you to Bulgaria." or "Oh, you're an electrician? There's a commune in Poland keen on getting some of those....nah, Hungary it is", as far as possible the situation of migrants and hosts should be taken into account.
If they decide "Screw it, I'm going to Germany" right away despite being treat well and given a chance in Latvia. Then that does sort of give a bit of a clue that they may not be a genuine refugee. There's plenty more who would be willing to work with the programme.
Quote from: Tyr on August 19, 2015, 03:06:23 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 19, 2015, 03:04:18 PM
You must be kidding. What kind of stimulus you think an uneducated Somali will provide in a country with 15-25% unemployment?
The money he is given to live off.
And the funding that will be put into the various support programmes.
(also unemployment actually tends to be less of a problem in several eastern european countries than in many western european countries. Some areas actually have problems due to the amount of young workers that have gone to seek work in the west.)
Cry me a river. Last I checked hungary has around 10% unemployment and that does NOT include the masses "employed" on "communal work" by councils for half the minimum wage.
UK has 3% unemployment IIRC. That's basically "if you want to be employed, you are" territory
Quote from: Tamas on August 19, 2015, 03:35:27 PM
Cry me a river. Last I checked hungary has around 10% unemployment and that does NOT include the masses "employed" on "communal work" by councils for half the minimum wage.
UK has 3% unemployment IIRC. That's basically "if you want to be employed, you are" territory
Well that's just bollocks. Official figures in the UK are 5.5 and that includes a lot of number fudging to bring it down.
And this doesn't really work on a national scale. Its far more regional. In Poland the problem is big enough for the national government to get involved but the main impacts tend to be seen on a local scale.
Quote from: Tyr on August 19, 2015, 03:06:23 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 19, 2015, 03:04:18 PM
You must be kidding. What kind of stimulus you think an uneducated Somali will provide in a country with 15-25% unemployment?
The money he is given to live off.
And the funding that will be put into the various support programmes.
(also unemployment actually tends to be less of a problem in several eastern european countries than in many western european countries. Some areas actually have problems due to the amount of young workers that have gone to seek work in the west.)
Okay, you need to work with me here. We have money given to uneducated Somalis (presumably by the government though I suppose private charity is a also a possibility), and this somehow funds various support programs.
The Cameron government is behaving rather shabbily over this refugee crisis.
Quote from: mongers on August 19, 2015, 09:33:18 PM
The Cameron government is behaving rather shabbily over this refugee crisis.
mongers! :hug:
But yeah, all governments look bad at the moment when it comes to refugees.
Migrants: Germany could take up to 800,000 this year
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33988013 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33988013)
Either way - more will be coming. Even if we build Iron Curtain 2.0 and mine the Mediterranean to the point you could walk from mine to mine from one end to the other, people will find a way in. EU needs to figure out how to deal with it, beyond the knee jerk reaction of "not in my back yard!"
Indeed we need a Final Solution forthis :mad: ;)
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 12:08:29 AM
Either way - more will be coming. Even if we build Iron Curtain 2.0 and mine the Mediterranean to the point you could walk from mine to mine from one end to the other, people will find a way in. EU needs to figure out how to deal with it, beyond the knee jerk reaction of "not in my back yard!"
Do any of these people represent any sort of plus value for whichever country is saddled with them? Other than social security burdens, petty crimes and terrorism of course? Let them in and kill them here; word will spread quickly and I predict the flow of migrants will stop very quickly. Oh but I forget, nobody has the cojones to really solve any problems anymore.
G.
"G", feel free to go ahead and kill immigrants in your country if you have the cojones to "solve the problem."
Quote from: Grallon on August 20, 2015, 06:30:28 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 12:08:29 AM
Either way - more will be coming. Even if we build Iron Curtain 2.0 and mine the Mediterranean to the point you could walk from mine to mine from one end to the other, people will find a way in. EU needs to figure out how to deal with it, beyond the knee jerk reaction of "not in my back yard!"
Do any of these people represent any sort of plus value for whichever country is saddled with them? Other than social security burdens, petty crimes and terrorism of course? Let them in and kill them here; word will spread quickly and I predict the flow of migrants will stop very quickly. Oh but I forget, nobody has the cojones to really solve any problems anymore.
G.
I think we've seen enough "final solutions to question <a> or <b>" the last hundred years.
And to be honest, that kind of hyperbole and hatred sounds a lot like the terrorist who murdered children for fun at a Labour youth camp in Norway.
Migration is as deeply ingrained in humanity as the need to eat. The two usually follow each other.
Also I wonder if the situation politics-wise in Europe is the same as in Hungary:
namely, that the vast majority of the population is worried about this never before seen amount of migrants. Yes, the loud ones hate on them etc. But even those who don't are worried to different degrees. Maybe just about wether the government's resources are enough to handle the issue in a civilised matter, or indeed worried about the effect a huge number of decidedly different cultured people can have on their daily lives.
And while you CAN blame the ruthless xenophobes, you can't blame the general concern as a whole, I believe. Most coins have two sides, let alone this one, which is showing all signs of turning into a historic migrational wave.
Now, what happens in Hungary is that only the two extreme possible opinions are given voice. The government and the far right are violently and viciously anti-immigrant, nowadays to a degree that starts to put 1930s anti-Jew sentiments to shame.
How the opposition reacts, however, is refusing to discuss the thing and to acknowledge potential issues: in their correspondence, its a wave of helpless victims and no resource should be spared in making sure all their needs are catered for in the quickest manner.
So I am wondering if refusing to acknowledge and address (as in, dismiss in a logical manner, or offer solutions) common concerns by the left and liberals, they are TOTALLY conceding the ground to the radicals, because they are the only ones who are even willing to acknowledge there is a cause for concern for whatever reason.
I see why you guys would latch on to the "killing" part of his post as it's pretty outrageous, but I'm interested to hear what you have to say about his initial point-- "Do any of these people represent any sort of plus value for whichever country is saddled with them?"
Macedonia has declared a state of emergency because of the tens of thousands of refugees pouring over the border from Greece and will use the army to close themselves off.
Albanians and Macedonian Slavs unite at last! :)
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 09:07:07 AM
Macedonia has declared a state of emergency because of the tens of thousands of refugees pouring over the border from Greece and will use the army to close themselves off.
I read they had 38 thousand migrants entering last month. That's like 2% of the country's entire population. In one month!
Well, passing through. But yeah.
I feel somewhat reminded of the lat Roman Empire. The migrant barbarians for the most part didn't want to destroy the Empire, but wanted to live within the safety and prosperity of its borders. When the Romans rejected them they took it by force.
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 09:25:57 AM
Well, passing through. But yeah.
I feel somewhat reminded of the lat Roman Empire. The migrant barbarians for the most part didn't want to destroy the Empire, but wanted to live within the safety and prosperity of its borders. When the Romans rejected them they took it by force.
Yeah. We are not there yet though. But can eventually get there, in a decade or two.
Quote from: Tamas on August 20, 2015, 08:53:20 AM
...
So I am wondering if refusing to acknowledge and address (as in, dismiss in a logical manner, or offer solutions) common concerns by the left and liberals, they are TOTALLY conceding the ground to the radicals, because they are the only ones who are even willing to acknowledge there is a cause for concern for whatever reason.
Of course it does but they're so wrapped up in self righteousness they can't help themselves. If one side has knee-jerk anti-immigrant reactions - than the other has knee-jerk dismissal reactions. There's no problem according to them and merely voicing a concern is immediately branded as racist/xenophobic. The more they deny there's problem, the stronger the other side becomes and the faster the whole thing will blow in their faces.
*shrug* people are people
G.
Quote from: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 09:05:41 AM
I see why you guys would latch on to the "killing" part of his post as it's pretty outrageous, but I'm interested to hear what you have to say about his initial point-- "Do any of these people represent any sort of plus value for whichever country is saddled with them?"
That's a legitimate question when it comes to "normal" immigrants as they don't have any right to come and taking them is a privilege. We do have a blue card in the EU and various other mechanisms to regulate this kind of immigration.
It's not a legitimate question when it comes to asylum seekers and refugees. These people need our help because they could not stay at home due to war or persecution. They have a human right to shelter and aid.
The problem is that these two categories are often conflated and that many that apply under the second category belong top the first and are not admitted.
Quote from: Tamas on August 20, 2015, 09:28:30 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 09:25:57 AM
Well, passing through. But yeah.
I feel somewhat reminded of the lat Roman Empire. The migrant barbarians for the most part didn't want to destroy the Empire, but wanted to live within the safety and prosperity of its borders. When the Romans rejected them they took it by force.
Yeah. We are not there yet though. But can eventually get there, in a decade or two.
I am shocked, shocked to see a German describing the Barbarian invasions as "mostly" migrations. :P
I am thinking more and more of the situation described by this 1973 book, The Camp of the Saints
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints)
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Camp_des_saints (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Camp_des_saints)
Useful idiots on the left welcoming immigration since they do not have to mix with the newly arrived ones, out of self-hatred sometimes ; lack of will by governments to deal with the issue, poverty in the thirld world etc. It's more of an allegory though, even if the book is really over the top at times.
The book is certainly un-PC, reader's discretion is advised.
Agreed, Zanza.
Generally, the law only gives refuge to people who are politically prosecuted.
IMHO, it might have to be amended that in future to include people fleeing from climatic change - previously inhabitable areas turning to desert, land disappearing due to rising water levels etc.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 20, 2015, 09:45:32 AMUseful idiots on the left welcoming immigration since they do not have to mix with the newly arrived ones, out of self-hatred sometimes ; lack of will by governments to deal with the issue, poverty in the thirld world etc. It's more of an allegory though, even if the book is really over the top at times.
The book is certainly un-PC, reader's discretion is advised.
... says the son of immigrants who works abroad. :P
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 09:47:45 AM
Agreed, Zanza.
Generally, the law only gives refuge to people who are politically prosecuted.
IMHO, it might have to be amended that in future to include people fleeing from climatic change - previously inhabitable areas turning to desert, land disappearing due to rising water levels etc.
Then again, while immigration is beneficial even on the short term, common sense say there is such a thing as too much immigrants over a too short period of time for the economy and the local culture to cope with them.
If this wave continues to grow at this rate, sooner or later Europe will reach that tipover point. Probably not in several years, but whatever plans are made they should be made with that in mind.
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 09:47:45 AM
Agreed, Zanza.
Generally, the law only gives refuge to people who are politically prosecuted.
IMHO, it might have to be amended that in future to include people fleeing from climatic change - previously inhabitable areas turning to desert, land disappearing due to rising water levels etc.
Wow, so expand it then? Seems to me you might want to cut back a little. I feel bad for people suffering in all parts of the world, but we (or you, or whoever) can't take them all in.
Quote from: Tamas on August 20, 2015, 09:55:09 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 09:47:45 AM
Agreed, Zanza.
Generally, the law only gives refuge to people who are politically prosecuted.
IMHO, it might have to be amended that in future to include people fleeing from climatic change - previously inhabitable areas turning to desert, land disappearing due to rising water levels etc.
Then again, while immigration is beneficial even on the short term, common sense say there is such a thing as too much immigrants over a too short period of time for the economy and the local culture to cope with them.
If this wave continues to grow at this rate, sooner or later Europe will reach that tipover point. Probably not in several years, but whatever plans are made they should be made with that in mind.
That's why I think that the EU needs to work out how to manage this.
- Quickly determine if there's serious humanitarian reasons for a refugee to stay or not
- Among those not making the cut, determine if there are qualified persons who can contribute to the society and offer them integration programs
- Return the others to their country of origin
So is it generally accepted now that someone deemed worthy of refugee status will be allowed to stay forever? Honest question, as my original understanding of how the refugee thing worked was that it was supposed to be a temporary arrangement until things improved.
That's how it works, derspiess. It's meant to be temporary. Although there are integration programs for long term refugees.
Meant to be temporary, but how often is that actually the case?
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 09:49:22 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on August 20, 2015, 09:45:32 AMUseful idiots on the left welcoming immigration since they do not have to mix with the newly arrived ones, out of self-hatred sometimes ; lack of will by governments to deal with the issue, poverty in the thirld world etc. It's more of an allegory though, even if the book is really over the top at times.
The book is certainly un-PC, reader's discretion is advised.
... says the son of immigrants who works abroad. :P
i.e the sort who brings a "plus-value" unlike these so-called refugees. :blurgh: and hostile to facilitating business to human smugglers, unlike some "pro-migrant people" at Calais who even wanted to give money to be given to human smugglers since it was a
question d'honneur ( matter of honour) for the refugees (?!). Ils n'ont qu'à le faire pour l'honneur... If they had any honour, they would do it for free.
The Glorious Thirty were another time, countries like France actually wanted labor (even more so Germany), to deflate wages yes, but there was a labour shortage for a while. December 1963 saw Portugal signing an labour agreement with France for instance, Portugal still being somewhat opposed to letting its citizens go, even after the agreement. This boosted illegal immigration, along with compulsory and long military service, but France regularised them almost automatically back then. My father had a passport (did his tour in Angola) so he did not have to be an illegal migrant.
Now France gets most immigration through family regrouping which does not help at all.
Btw, I don't work anymore abroad, and the work I did could not be done by a German ;)
Quote- Quickly determine if there's serious humanitarian reasons for a refugee to stay or not
- Among those not making the cut, determine if there are qualified persons who can contribute to the society and offer them integration programs
- Return the others to their country of origin
This is acceptable but b) is easier said than done and c) will be opposed by the usual useful idiots and most refugees will disappear before being sent back, if it happens.
Quote from: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 10:16:29 AM
Meant to be temporary, but how often is that actually the case?
Not sure, but the numbers suggest that Germany must deport quite a few or else we would have a larger number of foreigners under the status below.
As of 31 Dec 2014, there were in Germany:
240,955 persons with "Aufenthaltserlaubnis völkerrechtlich, humanitär, politisch" - these are accepted asylum claims, i.e. these people have a temporary legal right to remain in Germany
112,767 persons under "Duldung" - these are persons that should be deported but the deportation is currently suspended
177,900 persons under "Aufenthaltsgestattung" - these are persons that have their asylum claim processed at the moment
229,611 persons with neither of these, possibly illegal immigrants or victims of human trafficking etc.
Another 7.4 million foreigners with various legal status in Germany.
Quote from: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 09:05:41 AM
I see why you guys would latch on to the "killing" part of his post as it's pretty outrageous, but I'm interested to hear what you have to say about his initial point-- "Do any of these people represent any sort of plus value for whichever country is saddled with them?"
There are lies and and damn lies and statistics, but most studies seem to agree immigrants usually become a net benefit over time. That excludes certain groups, such as Somalis.
According to Die Zeit, the German album charts on Amazon and the Austrian iTunes charts are currently led by "Schweigeminute", a minute of silence from Raoul Haspel who recorded it as protest against the situation in the Austrian refugee camp Traiskirchen (pre-orders, it'll be released next Friday). The proceeds all go towards improving the situation in the camp.
:thumbsup:
Pretty sure that's a cover.
Quote from: Norgy on August 20, 2015, 12:32:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 20, 2015, 09:05:41 AM
I see why you guys would latch on to the "killing" part of his post as it's pretty outrageous, but I'm interested to hear what you have to say about his initial point-- "Do any of these people represent any sort of plus value for whichever country is saddled with them?"
There are lies and and damn lies and statistics, but most studies seem to agree immigrants usually become a net benefit over time. That excludes certain groups, such as Somalis.
They've proven quite handy in the US.
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 02:09:59 PM
According to Die Zeit, the German album charts on Amazon and the Austrian iTunes charts are currently led by "Schweigeminute", a minute of silence from Raoul Haspel who recorded it as protest against the situation in the Austrian refugee camp Traiskirchen (pre-orders, it'll be released next Friday). The proceeds all go towards improving the situation in the camp.
I hope someone records and sells a minute of silence for other worthy causes. One could then have like 20 different minutes of silence, each for a different worthy cause that you could play on shuffle.
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 12:08:29 AM
Either way - more will be coming. Even if we build Iron Curtain 2.0 and mine the Mediterranean to the point you could walk from mine to mine from one end to the other, people will find a way in. EU needs to figure out how to deal with it, beyond the knee jerk reaction of "not in my back yard!"
Just don't let them stay once they get in. The reason why they're going to such lengths to get in is because if they do, they'll get to stay. The problem is a lack of political will, it's very easy to simply round up and deport people.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 20, 2015, 06:24:06 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 12:08:29 AM
Either way - more will be coming. Even if we build Iron Curtain 2.0 and mine the Mediterranean to the point you could walk from mine to mine from one end to the other, people will find a way in. EU needs to figure out how to deal with it, beyond the knee jerk reaction of "not in my back yard!"
Just don't let them stay once they get in. The reason why they're going to such lengths to get in is because if they do, they'll get to stay. The problem is a lack of political will, it's very easy to simply round up and deport people.
Yep, why that method has yielded great dividends in the US.
Quote from: garbon on August 20, 2015, 06:27:50 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 20, 2015, 06:24:06 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 20, 2015, 12:08:29 AM
Either way - more will be coming. Even if we build Iron Curtain 2.0 and mine the Mediterranean to the point you could walk from mine to mine from one end to the other, people will find a way in. EU needs to figure out how to deal with it, beyond the knee jerk reaction of "not in my back yard!"
Just don't let them stay once they get in. The reason why they're going to such lengths to get in is because if they do, they'll get to stay. The problem is a lack of political will, it's very easy to simply round up and deport people.
Yep, why that method has yielded great dividends in the US.
That method hasn't really been tried in the US. Enforcement is very lax and you know it.
Sorry, but I'm not buying that if we spent more efforts on deportation that we'd really end up with a better outcome.
Raz no buy that argument either.
Quote from: garbon on August 20, 2015, 06:46:44 PM
Sorry, but I'm not buying that if we spent more efforts on deportation that we'd really end up with a better outcome.
Obviously someone who considers limiting immigration to be despicable wouldn't think more deportation would lead to a "better outcome". It would be successful at reducing the numbers of illegal immigrants though.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on August 20, 2015, 10:19:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 20, 2015, 06:46:44 PM
Sorry, but I'm not buying that if we spent more efforts on deportation that we'd really end up with a better outcome.
Obviously someone who considers limiting immigration to be despicable wouldn't think more deportation would lead to a "better outcome". It would be successful at reducing the numbers of illegal immigrants though.
It's not that it's despicable, it's just that it doesn't work. Immigration is an effect of a success of an empire - the greater the success (and, consequently, the greater the disparity between the standard of living in the empire and outside of it) the greater the immigration drive. You can't resist it, long term, any more than you can make a river run upstream (sure you can short term, but this usually requires a great expenditure of resources, and at the end your measure will fail).
The effect of immigration will be a relative reduction of the standard of living for those inside, yes, but as I said, you cannot prevent it.
Morality issues aside, I am sure sending a few plane-loads of illegal immigrants back to Palmyra will do wonders to stop people from wanting to go to Europe.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 21, 2015, 02:01:55 AM
Morality issues aside, I am sure sending a few plane-loads of illegal immigrants back to Palmyra will do wonders to stop people from wanting to go to Europe.
Well Europe isn't China. ;)
Several hundred right wing protesters clashed with police yesterday when they wanted to prevent a bus of refugees from getting to a new home. Police were pelted with fire crackers, bottles and stones. And, unsurprisingly, this was again in Saxony.
Right-wing protesters? The local CDU is more radical in Saxony à la CSU in Bavaria? Or is it just Saxons being Saxons, without Angles?
Saxony is the stronghold of the NPD.
Whenever the media is doing interviews with migrants they always seem to run into a few who have already spent time in Europe but were deported.
It could of course just be selection bias since they're the ones most likely to speak good English.
But it sure seems that deporting isn't much of a help for dissuading people.
Protests in Heidenau, Germany:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-887150-galleryV9-tgwq.jpg&hash=b0edbf5bb46067c725521f4cdfd59a748e111ba3)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-887155-galleryV9-rgvq.jpg&hash=fea874fcd36e3dadb970a874a9abc634ceca3198)
Greek-Macedonian border:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-887176-galleryV9-pwal.jpg&hash=a09bc17ef190534a24d3d57ef67250d7043cd9bf)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-887189-galleryV9-psyx.jpg&hash=f90f614f70b8646674e7c6f4a24737c80612383d)
It's really sad that it comes to this. We should be able to handle all of this in a more humane matter. :(
We should, but it appears the majority don't want to. :(
Quote from: Syt on August 23, 2015, 01:52:35 AM
We should, but it appears the majority don't want to. :(
Is it really the majority or a vocal minority, though?
Meanwhile, Merkel is remaining quiet about the whole refugee/xenophobia situation.
Quote from: Syt on August 23, 2015, 09:33:49 AM
Meanwhile, Merkel is remaining quiet about the whole refugee/xenophobia situation.
Of course she does. There are no votes to win going there.
Quote from: Martinus on August 23, 2015, 02:52:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 23, 2015, 01:52:35 AM
We should, but it appears the majority don't want to. :(
Is it really the majority or a vocal minority, though?
Some are quite vocal. But in the end, nobody wants a couple hundred refugees in their backyard. Someone else's backyard, though ...
Read this morning that one of the main obstacles to having a quota system for refugees within the EU is the reluctance of the Eastern members to accept more than they do. Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia have signaled that they would accept up to 2000 refugees each - but preferably no Muslims, because of security/integration concerns.
So if we expect 800,000 asylum applicants this year, it would almost be 1% of our number between the three of them. Thanks for your solidarity, partners! :swiss:
Merkel has finally spoken out against the recent spike in xenophobia. :)
By having her press speaker give a few stock lines on her behalf. <_<
You don't last as long as she has by sticking your neck out.
In the last couple of days two more houses that were planned to house refugees have mysteriously burned down in Germany.
Meanwhile, on a train in Berlin, two very drunk neonazis (both in their 30s, and well known to police) picked on a South East European looking woman with her two kids aged 5 and 15. They insulted her, then one of them opened his fly and started to piss on the kids. Both thugs got arrested after other passengers called the police. They were released from custody in the meantime but will face charges.
It's really disappointing and shameful that we have assholes like that in our society. :(
Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2015, 03:26:43 AM
It's really disappointing and shameful that we have assholes like that in our society. :(
It's not like Austria is much better, at least when it comes to the maturity of the public debate: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/medien/boulevardmedien-in-oesterreich-pakt-mit-den-rechtspopulisten-1.2619283
(Fortunately not as many attacks against refugees - though you could argue it's not necessary, because that's covered by local mayors who block attempts to move refugees in their towns and cities.)
Meanwhile Hungary is starting to get around 2000 migrants a day. Needless to say the temporary barbed wire thingie slows them down for about a minute on average, and channels them into the railroads where there is no fence.
The permanent 3 meters fence is only partially ready but already it has been cut at least one place :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.444.hu%2Fsites%2F25%2FD__US20150825005.jpg&hash=fde3f8cb08340cab688eb2408a210b3bc5cfdd57)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.444.hu%2Fsites%2F25%2FD__US20150825008.jpg&hash=628395d072d74652a6237fa21983daea7367eedf)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.444.hu%2Fsites%2F25%2FD__US20150825010.jpg&hash=c4bb735c3187b268f052fc1d1ee181b04d4539d2)
Making a bed inside the rails seems like a profoundly stupid idea. Are there no trains running across the border any more?
Looking at the rust on the tracks I'd say it's an unused or rarely used line.
Quote from: Syt on August 25, 2015, 03:49:50 AM
Looking at the rust on the tracks I'd say it's an unused or rarely used line.
Sure, but that's not really a safe enough way to judge level of use, especially if you plan to sleep there. :P
You can see a train on one of the pictures.
But as you can see there are police cars on all of the pics, these were taken when a group was being administered by the police.
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 03:58:03 AM
You can see a train on one of the pictures.
:blush: I have languish open in a small window and I didn't notice the scroll bar.
Quote from: Liep on August 25, 2015, 03:53:25 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 25, 2015, 03:49:50 AM
Looking at the rust on the tracks I'd say it's an unused or rarely used line.
Sure, but that's not really a safe enough way to judge level of use, especially if you plan to sleep there. :P
The train is respecting the Member's Only jacket.
In Hungary there has bee no real violence yet, I am convinced its only a matter of time. State TV and radio news shows are constantly working up fear about the migrants. Fidesz politicians are talking about "ever more agressive and demanding" migrants where as in fact in a span of 3-4 months there has been only two cases of violence: once two migrants started fighting, the other was a mini-riot in one of the camps during Ramadan.
And this is infuriating because this IS a complex and huge issue, that is bound to get bigger in scale and harder to manage, and indeed there is a middle ground between killing them all and letting them all in without any expectations from them.
But this will be absolutely impossible to handle when at the mere beginning they are working the entire country into a hysteria. And it is working very well. Which is understandable, I don't think Hungary was ever very welcoming to alien cultures, I mean, we have had our minority language spread and rule the country over the centuries, we have assimilated countless Slavs and Germans and an entire nation of Cumans. You don't do that by letting them do their own thing ;)
So anyways, you heard it here first: things will get very nasty in Hungary. Its just a matter of time.
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 04:44:09 AM
So anyways, you heard it here first: things will get very nasty in Hungary. Its just a matter of time.
it will get nasty all over. The politicians do not have a mandate to take in endless streams of refugees and migrants.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 25, 2015, 07:03:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 04:44:09 AM
So anyways, you heard it here first: things will get very nasty in Hungary. Its just a matter of time.
it will get nasty all over. The politicians do not have a mandate to take in endless streams of refugees and migrants.
If you don't like your politicians you should vote differently.
Two Danish radio journalists went undercover as members from Sverigedemokraterne and handed out flyers in Malmö. After a while a group gathered around them shouting that they were racists and nazis and after 45 minutes they had to leave after being threatened.
Quote from: Liep on August 25, 2015, 07:13:08 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 25, 2015, 07:03:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 04:44:09 AM
So anyways, you heard it here first: things will get very nasty in Hungary. Its just a matter of time.
it will get nasty all over. The politicians do not have a mandate to take in endless streams of refugees and migrants.
If you don't like your politicians you should vote differently.
and how does that contradict the fact that currently elected politicians don't have a mandate to let in endless amounts of people?
Would it kill those immigrants to not litter? If you're expecting hospitality from me you had better at a minimum give a hoot and not pollute :angry:
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 25, 2015, 07:58:26 AM
Quote from: Liep on August 25, 2015, 07:13:08 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 25, 2015, 07:03:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 04:44:09 AM
So anyways, you heard it here first: things will get very nasty in Hungary. Its just a matter of time.
it will get nasty all over. The politicians do not have a mandate to take in endless streams of refugees and migrants.
If you don't like your politicians you should vote differently.
and how does that contradict the fact that currently elected politicians don't have a mandate to let in endless amounts of people?
I don't see how they don't have a mandate to rule the country if they were democratically elected.
Quote from: derspiess on August 25, 2015, 08:15:56 AM
Would it kill those immigrants to not litter? If you're expecting hospitality from me you had better at a minimum give a hoot and not pollute :angry:
It doesn't help the argument of them not being invaders careless of our cullture, that's for sure
Our voters don't like giving anyone a mandate so we always give the minority party enough votes to gum up the works.
Germany will no longer apply the Dublin Agreement rules to Syrians seeking asylum, meaning all Syrians arriving from other EU states in Germany will not be deported to those other EU states and will typically (>95%) be given asylum in Germany.
Quote from: Liep on August 25, 2015, 08:20:51 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 25, 2015, 07:58:26 AM
Quote from: Liep on August 25, 2015, 07:13:08 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 25, 2015, 07:03:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 04:44:09 AM
So anyways, you heard it here first: things will get very nasty in Hungary. Its just a matter of time.
it will get nasty all over. The politicians do not have a mandate to take in endless streams of refugees and migrants.
If you don't like your politicians you should vote differently.
and how does that contradict the fact that currently elected politicians don't have a mandate to let in endless amounts of people?
I don't see how they don't have a mandate to rule the country if they were democratically elected.
and part of ruling isn't letting in endless amounts of people.
Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2015, 08:30:27 AM
Germany will no longer apply the Dublin Agreement rules to Syrians seeking asylum, meaning all Syrians arriving from other EU states in Germany will not be deported to those other EU states and will typically (>95%) be given asylum in Germany.
So problem solved, they all go to Germany? :hmm:
Take all the Syrian Kurds. It will help balance out all those Turks.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 25, 2015, 10:09:57 AM
So problem solved, they all go to Germany? :hmm:
The least place I would go considering the way things are going now - and history - and that's a prime example of what Crazy Ivan said. For some reason the German government decided to lift the Dublin agreement, compromising the social stability of the society they're custodian of, without consulting the people that will be affected. After all one can only imagine what the answer to 'Do you want to be invaded by hordes of 3rd world vagrants - Yes or No?" would be... So better not ask and cram the decision down everyone's throat.
An election is not a blank check to do anything you please under the guise of 'governing'. But then again the french referendum of 2005 was a clear no against the European constitution and Sarkosy went ahead anyway, approving most of the intended provisions by treaty instead. Our governments might be elected but they answer to other masters than the citizens - and those have their own priorities...
G.
Quote from: Grallon on August 25, 2015, 10:42:26 AM
Our governments might be elected but they answer to other masters than the citizens - and those have their own priorities...
Ok, out of curiosity - who are those other masters?
Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2015, 11:02:49 AM
Quote from: Grallon on August 25, 2015, 10:42:26 AM
Our governments might be elected but they answer to other masters than the citizens - and those have their own priorities...
Ok, out of curiosity - who are those other masters?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phlmetropolis.com%2FIlluminati.jpg&hash=1e43e5b56dc3abfd736b251dc2dd9d1f91d30281)
Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2015, 11:02:49 AM
Ok, out of curiosity - who are those other masters?
One only needs to follow the money trail...
G.
Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2015, 10:28:49 AM
Take all the Syrian Kurds. It will help balance out all those Turks.
A large chunk of the Turks in Germany are actually Kurds I'm told by Turkish friends. No idea how true that is
Quote from: Grallon on August 25, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2015, 11:02:49 AM
Ok, out of curiosity - who are those other masters?
One only needs to follow the money trail...
G.
Oh god, it's what I feared. The Golden slugs, who live a a trail of viscous precious metals everywhere they go.
It's Jews all the way down.
Quote from: Grallon on August 25, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2015, 11:02:49 AM
Ok, out of curiosity - who are those other masters?
One only needs to follow the money trail...
Who is making money from admitting refugees? :huh:
Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2015, 01:25:14 PM
Quote from: Grallon on August 25, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2015, 11:02:49 AM
Ok, out of curiosity - who are those other masters?
One only needs to follow the money trail...
Who is making money from admitting refugees? :huh:
(advocate of the devil)
a certain kind of lawyers (who deal with asylum-procedures),
people in certain NGO's and other organisations that deal with asylumseekers (deserving or not) and need subsidies to keep running.
certain government-organisations that do the same and also need subsidies.
people who rent bad housing to way too many people at once (slum landlords),
people putting persons without a workpermit to work
Can't ask these people to destroy their source of income.
All in all there's more than enough people who make a buck on the influx of newcomers (refugees or not)
(/advocate of the devil)
So you think that a couple of lawyers, civil servants, NGOs, slum landlords and illegal employers somehow have a strong lobby in our government to actually influence immigration and asylum policy? Now, admittedly I cannot prove you wrong, but such a hodgepodge group is not what you usually hear about when people complain about lobbyism in Germany.
Euro-Koch brothers maybe?
Quote from: derspiess on August 25, 2015, 01:49:45 PM
Euro-Koch brothers maybe?
Nobody who speaks German could be that evil Spicey.
This is a rather silly conspiracy theory.
Quote from: derspiess on August 25, 2015, 01:49:45 PM
Euro-Koch brothers maybe?
While individuals here can give as much as they like to a political party, transparency rules mean that parties have to publish every donation above 50,000 Euro and there aren't that many big donations. Four in 2015, thirteen in 2014.
Not sure why imaginary German Koch brothers might be interested in admitting more refugees though. What's the long-term gain for them? :huh:
:lol: guys, it is a view, nay, accepted truth by a significant portion of the Hungarian right, that it is the USA financing the journey of all the migrants to break the neck of the EU, it's economic and rival
Quote from: Grallon on August 25, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2015, 11:02:49 AM
Ok, out of curiosity - who are those other masters?
One only needs to follow the money trail...
G.
You do realise that 99% of people who use this rhetoric also consider gays the plague serving the same purpose, right?
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 02:42:08 PM
:lol: guys, it is a view, nay, accepted truth by a significant portion of the Hungarian right, that it is the USA financing the journey of all the migrants to break the neck of the EU, it's economic and rival
Ah well that is not surprising. We cause everything in the entire world.
Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2015, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 02:42:08 PM
:lol: guys, it is a view, nay, accepted truth by a significant portion of the Hungarian right, that it is the USA financing the journey of all the migrants to break the neck of the EU, it's economic and rival
Ah well that is not surprising. We cause everything in the entire world.
Tamas failed to mention that the USA is controlled by the Jews, though.
Damn. Even when I try to take a little pride about ruling the world with our evil shadow organizations the Jews steal our thunder.
Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2015, 01:39:48 PM
So you think that a couple of lawyers, civil servants, NGOs, slum landlords and illegal employers somehow have a strong lobby in our government to actually influence immigration and asylum policy? Now, admittedly I cannot prove you wrong, but such a hodgepodge group is not what you usually hear about when people complain about lobbyism in Germany.
your question was: "who's making money from letting in refugees". These are potential groups that make money on the back of the immigration/refugee-issue.
That these disparate groups would [edit]not[/edit] be lobbying together I doubt it, especially as the last groups are often enough tackled by the first (and rightfully so).
But these first groups have -at least in Belgium, which isn't Germany of course- a significant influence (waxing and waning depending many factors, but there) on policy via administration, public opinion (through the po-co-press) and political parties (usually, but not exclusively, left wing).
And while I'm for helping refugees I'm quite surprised that with the way migration has been mishandled since decades (including the ongoing lack of differentiation between refugees and economic migrants) the blowback isn't already much larger than what it is. But nothing a few more terrorists can't wreck too :glare:. I maintain the stance that there's worse to come.
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 02:42:08 PM
:lol: guys, it is a view, nay, accepted truth by a significant portion of the Hungarian right, that it is the USA financing the journey of all the migrants to break the neck of the EU, it's economic and rival
I've seen that nonsense pop up here too, on occassion. Often by the Putin-brigade.
Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2015, 02:49:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2015, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 02:42:08 PM
:lol: guys, it is a view, nay, accepted truth by a significant portion of the Hungarian right, that it is the USA financing the journey of all the migrants to break the neck of the EU, it's economic and rival
Ah well that is not surprising. We cause everything in the entire world.
Tamas failed to mention that the USA is controlled by the Jews, though.
but not all the way down, or things would be better run.
The US only appears to not be well run. It only seems like most of our foreign adventures end in disastrous failure. That is part of the conspiracy.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 25, 2015, 02:55:21 PM
Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2015, 01:39:48 PM
So you think that a couple of lawyers, civil servants, NGOs, slum landlords and illegal employers somehow have a strong lobby in our government to actually influence immigration and asylum policy? Now, admittedly I cannot prove you wrong, but such a hodgepodge group is not what you usually hear about when people complain about lobbyism in Germany.
your question was: "who's making money from letting in refugees". These are potential groups that make money on the back of the immigration/refugee-issue.
That these disparate groups would [edit]not[/edit] be lobbying together I doubt it, especially as the last groups are often enough tackled by the first (and rightfully so).
But these first groups have -at least in Belgium, which isn't Germany of course- a significant influence (waxing and waning depending many factors, but there) on policy via administration, public opinion (through the po-co-press) and political parties (usually, but not exclusively, left wing).
And while I'm for helping refugees I'm quite surprised that with the way migration has been mishandled since decades (including the ongoing lack of differentiation between refugees and economic migrants) the blowback isn't already much larger than what it is. But nothing a few more terrorists can't wreck too :glare:. I maintain the stance that there's worse to come.
My question referred to grallon's claim that the German policy on this follows monetary interests. I find that inconclusive and doubt that the aforementioned groups have enough lobbying power. Your post could not convince me.
Quote from: Zanza on August 25, 2015, 03:21:18 PM
My question referred to grallon's claim that the German policy on this follows monetary interests. I find that inconclusive and doubt that the aforementioned groups have enough lobbying power. Your post could not convince me.
Doesn't matter, as Belgium isn't Germany. Things are different here.
The UK need to accept it's international responsibility and take around 100,00 of these Syrian refugees; our government's policy is to overthrow Syria's government, so it's partially responsible for creating a part of this refugee crisis in the first place.
Quote from: mongers on August 25, 2015, 04:15:28 PM
our government's policy is to overthrow Syria's government
Have several sternly worded letters been sent?
Quote from: Tamas on August 25, 2015, 02:42:08 PM
:lol: guys, it is a view, nay, accepted truth by a significant portion of the Hungarian right, that it is the USA financing the journey of all the migrants to break the neck of the EU, it's economic and rival
Shouldn't that make the US the hero of the Hungarian right, given how the EU's main objective is to undermine the Hungarian people?
So Merkel will finally visit the refugee camp in Heidenau, Saxony, that has seen the worst nazi protests over the weekend. It's good that she's showing herself there. Some minor figures in her party were already trying to make points with populist policies, such as not allowing refugee children in schools until their asylum claim has been granted.
Germany will also double the funding for social housing for the next five years.
Tear gas was used in one of the reception camps in Hungary to disperse about 200 migrants.
One version is that they wanted to get under shelter from the rain. Police said they refused to give fingerprints and wanted to leave the camp.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34061532
An also popular anti-migrant line in Hungary is, sort of trying to underline the "payed agents of America" thing: "WTF they are not refugees, look at their expensive clothing and smart phones!"
And I don't know which reasoning for that is more pathetic:
These Hungarians are either so poor they consider what is trashy poor clothing in the West to be "expensive clothing", and so backward that for them a mobile with an LCD screen is expensive top of the line technology
OR
They have a distorted view of everything outside of Europe, expecting migrants to be, IDK, dressed in tribal clothing or something?
Quote from: Valmy on August 25, 2015, 03:04:02 PM
The US only appears to not be well run. It only seems like most of our foreign adventures end in disastrous failure. That is part of the conspiracy.
This is because Jews want to keep plausible deniability.
Even if I am, to put it mildly, sceptical about Muslim cultures, I support accepting the refugees (including the Muslims ones), simply because one look at the anti-immigration crowd convinces me they cannot be right on anything.
Quote from: Martinus on August 26, 2015, 06:39:23 AM
Even if I am, to put it mildly, sceptical about Muslim cultures, I support accepting the refugees (including the Muslims ones), simply because one look at the anti-immigration crowd convinces me they cannot be right on anything.
And this is how most political opinions in this country are formed.
'Well that seems like a good idea...but Obama did it so surely it must be bad.'
But yeah Poland should take in refugees and other immigrants. preferably more of the later than the former. It will really help with that perception of insularity as well as actual insularity.
Quote from: Zanza on August 26, 2015, 02:14:56 AM
So Merkel will finally visit the refugee camp in Heidenau, Saxony, that has seen the worst nazi protests over the weekend. It's good that she's showing herself there. Some minor figures in her party were already trying to make points with populist policies, such as not allowing refugee children in schools until their asylum claim has been granted.
Germany will also double the funding for social housing for the next five years.
Hundreds of right wingers welcomed Merkel with protests. Vice chancellor Gabriel called the protesters previously "Pack," (a derogatory term for a mob; dict.leo.org offers "vermin" which I find a tad too strong), so many of them were chanting "Wir sind das Pack!", a callback to the 1989 chants of "Wir sind das Volk" which were also used by Pegida and other "asylum critics." Other chanted "Volksverräter" (traitor).
A guy who called on Facebook for real Germans to stand up and arrest Merkel for treason during her visit in Heidenau was visited by the police, informing him that while he's free to report her to the police for treason, he is not permitted to arrest her.
Quote from: Syt on August 26, 2015, 08:18:53 AM
Hundreds of right wingers welcomed Merkel with protests. Vice chancellor Gabriel called the protesters previously "Pack," (a derogatory term for a mob
"Pack" has pretty much the same meaning in English, too, at least in certain contexts. Don't think we really needed the translation here.
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Did the world think these people would just stay put as their countries are torn apart by war and terrorism?
"The World" probably hoped they'd just stay there and fight and die for their freedom (from war and terrorism). A rather unrealistic expectation though.
People complain Amerikkka tries too much to be the world's policeman, and maybe that's true...but how about the world's Superman (though we suck at that too)? :(
Danes can be idiots too! Cars burned and buildings vandalised in housings for asylum seekers in Jutland:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fekstrabladet.dk%2Fincoming%2Farticle5703411.ece%2FIMAGE_ALTERNATES%2Fp900%2FUbehandlet%2520webpix&hash=bb6532734bc5413c345473a11a64ae4451057b39)
This is shameful.
Czesław Miłosz, a Polish poet and 1980's literature Nobel Prize winner wrote a poem "A Poor Christian Looks at the Ghetto" which is about Warsaw inhabitants looking on, emotionlessly, at the Warsaw ghetto, while it is being "liquidated" by the nazis. I cannot help but think of similarities to this situation "poor Europeans" are inconvenienced by having to deal with the genuine, unimaginable tragedy of the asylum seekers - and somehow they think themselves, not the asylum seekers, to be the "victims".
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 03:22:46 AM
This is shameful.
Czesław Miłosz, a Polish poet and 1980's literature Nobel Prize winner wrote a poem "A Poor Christian Looks at the Ghetto" which is about Warsaw inhabitants looking on, emotionlessly, at the Warsaw ghetto, while it is being "liquidated" by the nazis. I cannot help but think of similarities to this situation "poor Europeans" are inconvenienced by having to deal with the genuine, unimaginable tragedy of the asylum seekers - and somehow they think themselves, not the asylum seekers, to be the "victims".
I 95% agree.
But we also should not forget that this is appearing to be a huge influx of people from a very different culture. CONCERNS of the native population over its effects and way it is handled presently are quite understandable. The ACTIONS of these people are deplorable indeed.
Meanwhile record keep braking: yesterday Hungarian authorities registered 3000 new illegal immigrants.
I have seen the pic of a displayed discussion topic on Hungarian state TV:
"Will there be more hyperactive children due to the migrants?"
Allegedly they quoted a German study about there being more hyperactive kids. And since Germany has a lot of immgirants, it is clear that the reason are:
(https://i.imgflip.com/q4xb6.jpg)
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 03:55:33 AM
Meanwhile record keep braking: yesterday Hungarian authorities registered 3000 new illegal immigrants.
Are they illegal immigrants or asylum seekers? :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 04:15:14 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 03:55:33 AM
Meanwhile record keep braking: yesterday Hungarian authorities registered 3000 new illegal immigrants.
Are they illegal immigrants or asylum seekers? :huh:
Well they all apply for asylum and then almost all of them try to get going towrad Austria at the earliest opportunity.
For example just two days ago, a couple of hundred asylum seekers were waiting to be administered outside the premises of the reception center due to the center itself being choke full.
After a while they just vanished, no doubt walked on toward the West.
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 03:53:22 AM
But we also should not forget that this is appearing to be a huge influx of people from a very different culture. CONCERNS of the native population over its effects and way it is handled presently are quite understandable. The ACTIONS of these people are deplorable indeed.
Keep in mind, the attacks and vandalism that get reported are occurring among a population of hundreds of millions of people with such concerns.
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 03:53:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 03:22:46 AM
This is shameful.
Czesław Miłosz, a Polish poet and 1980's literature Nobel Prize winner wrote a poem "A Poor Christian Looks at the Ghetto" which is about Warsaw inhabitants looking on, emotionlessly, at the Warsaw ghetto, while it is being "liquidated" by the nazis. I cannot help but think of similarities to this situation "poor Europeans" are inconvenienced by having to deal with the genuine, unimaginable tragedy of the asylum seekers - and somehow they think themselves, not the asylum seekers, to be the "victims".
I 95% agree.
But we also should not forget that this is appearing to be a huge influx of people from a very different culture. CONCERNS of the native population over its effects and way it is handled presently are quite understandable. The ACTIONS of these people are deplorable indeed.
That may be true, but given that Europe did not manage to come up with a succesful immigrant assimilation policy for the last 50 years or so, it is a bit optimistic to think it will come up with one on a short notice now. Especially as right now we are dealing with a humanitarian crisis and people are dying.
So perhaps we should get back to this discussion when we satisfy these people's basic biological needs. Otherwise, it's a bit like stopping to lecture a patient, who has just been admitted to the trauma center, about the benefits of a properly balanced diet.
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 04:18:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 04:15:14 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 03:55:33 AM
Meanwhile record keep braking: yesterday Hungarian authorities registered 3000 new illegal immigrants.
Are they illegal immigrants or asylum seekers? :huh:
Well they all apply for asylum and then almost all of them try to get going towrad Austria at the earliest opportunity.
For example just two days ago, a couple of hundred asylum seekers were waiting to be administered outside the premises of the reception center due to the center itself being choke full.
After a while they just vanished, no doubt walked on toward the West.
Well, so already the language you are using is abusive, given that you refer to them as "illegal immigrants".
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 04:25:36 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 04:18:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 04:15:14 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 03:55:33 AM
Meanwhile record keep braking: yesterday Hungarian authorities registered 3000 new illegal immigrants.
Are they illegal immigrants or asylum seekers? :huh:
Well they all apply for asylum and then almost all of them try to get going towrad Austria at the earliest opportunity.
For example just two days ago, a couple of hundred asylum seekers were waiting to be administered outside the premises of the reception center due to the center itself being choke full.
After a while they just vanished, no doubt walked on toward the West.
Well, so already the language you are using is abusive, given that you refer to them as "illegal immigrants".
well, even if we say that they need to flee within EU borders to be safe (which is a stretch), they really have no reason to flee into Germany, Sweden, etc. If they are seeking to settle within the EU by crossing the borders without any paperwork, they are not refugees, they are immigrants, and due to current laws, illegal ones, at that.
As I kept saying here (and I really don't wish to re-state this, especially for you), I 100% understand why they are doing this and if I was born in any of the horrible shitholes they are coming from, I would be among them doing the same.
So they have all my sympathy.
However, a desire to live in the EU is not enough legal grounds to come in and leave in the EU. It simply cannot be, because the EU is the only semi-realistic chance for a decent life to around a billion people and we can't take that much.
Bona fide asylum seekers are not illegal immigrants, as bona fide asylum seekers have a right to an asylum which is based in international treaties and domestic law. The decision of a state to grant an asylum status to a refugee is not a discretionary decision, as the state only ascertains whether objective criteria have been met - in that, it becomes a declaratory decision, in that if it is positive, it retroactively legalises the migration of the asylum seeker. Until the decision is given, the asylum seeker's status is uncertain but it does not mean it is illegal (similarly, as with a criminal court judgement, until the acquiting judgement is given, the defendant is not considered a criminal).
So yes, calling them illegal immigrants is both wrong and distorts the ethical aspect of the discussion.
Ok, migrants then. They want to settle in the EU, so they are not refugees. They are migrants. And calling them refugees when they are not really, also distorts the ethical discussion, and not in a productive way.
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 04:43:09 AM
Ok, migrants then. They want to settle in the EU, so they are not refugees. They are migrants. And calling them refugees when they are not really, also distorts the ethical discussion, and not in a productive way.
The Syrian ones are clearly refugees. Same with people fleeing from ISIS-controlled areas. :huh:
OR they are people who fled the war and decided to start a new life in Europe. They should be given a chance for that, too. Not universal, perhaps, but they should be given a chance to get that new, decent life in Europe.
They are, however, not refugees, strictly speaking.
Syrian refugees are the ones in Turkey, waiting for the war to end to go home.
If I was worried about Islamic extremism then I wouldn't feel too secure in Turkey.
Quote from: Tyr on August 27, 2015, 05:44:05 AM
If I was worried about Islamic extremism then I wouldn't feel too secure in Turkey.
True. Point is, we shouldn't pretend that those who struggle through Turkey and the Balkans (not to mention people from further away) come here just to hurry back home once its safe.
I understand why THEY pretend that, because otherwise they couldn't get in. But we do a disservice to them and ourselves if we don't identify them as what they are -migrants seeking a safe home- and come up with solutions to THAT problem, and not the problem of temporary refugees.
Few points from a new bill in Hungary aimed at managing the whole situation:
-if a migrant rats on a human trafficker, gets "humanitarian visa" (meaning he can stay in the country on humanitarian grounds)
-accepted asylum seekers, as well as refugees in "protected" status (TBH I don't remember what that entails) will be eligible for family support payments (ain't that much money though)
-both accepted asylum seekers and "protected" people will be of local resident status in terms of the law
-accepted people will not be able to refuse the communal work they are assigned to
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 06:43:36 AM
Few points from a new bill in Hungary aimed at managing the whole situation:
-if a migrant rats on a human trafficker, gets "humanitarian visa" (meaning he can stay in the country on humanitarian grounds)
-accepted asylum seekers, as well as refugees in "protected" status (TBH I don't remember what that entails) will be eligible for family support payments (ain't that much money though)
-both accepted asylum seekers and "protected" people will be of local resident status in terms of the law
-accepted people will not be able to refuse the communal work they are assigned to
Of these points, the last one seems a bit dodgy. What does it mean? Will the work be properly paid? It sounds to me like a (shitty) mandatory zero hours contract - aka indentured servitude.
"communal work" is what they have been alreaedy using for years to make unemployment disappear from the books.
It is paying roughly half of the minimum wage, and it is given to unemployed people. Unemployment benefits are temporary and even lower, so everyone has to use this.
Basically they are council landscapers, and also loaned out to friendly businesses.
It IS indentured servitude.
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 06:54:54 AM
"communal work" is what they have been alreaedy using for years to make unemployment disappear from the books.
It is paying roughly half of the minimum wage, and it is given to unemployed people. Unemployment benefits are temporary and even lower, so everyone has to use this.
Basically they are council landscapers, and also loaned out to friendly businesses.
It IS indentured servitude.
How can it pay below minimum wage? :huh:
Fuck. Just ... fuck.
http://www.thelocal.at/20150827/horrible-migrant-tragedy-50-dead-in-austria
QuoteMigrant tragedy leaves dozens dead in Austria
Dozens of migrants have been found dead inside a truck on a highway in Austria, police said on Thursday.
The vehicle, which contained between 20 and 50 bodies, was found on a parking strip off the highway in Burgenland state, police spokesman Hans Peter Doskozil said at a press conference with Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner.
"This tragedy affects us all deeply," Mikl-Leitner said.
"Human traffickers are criminals. Anyone still thinking that they're kind helpers cannot be helped."
It was not immediately clear how the migrants had died or how long they had been there.
The gruesome find comes as German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Balkan leaders are meeting in Vienna to seek how to tackle together the biggest migration crisis to hit Europe since World War II.
This year has seen record numbers of people trying to reach the European Union by sea and land as they flee conflict in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.
Ahead of the conference, Austria's Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz warned that his country would consider introducing tougher anti-migration measures including "much tighter border controls", if the EU failed to come up with a unified response.
"Austria has more migrants than Italy and Greece combined... so we shouldn't pretend that only Italy and Greece are affected," he said in an interview with public broadcaster ORF.
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 07:11:43 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 27, 2015, 06:54:54 AM
"communal work" is what they have been alreaedy using for years to make unemployment disappear from the books.
It is paying roughly half of the minimum wage, and it is given to unemployed people. Unemployment benefits are temporary and even lower, so everyone has to use this.
Basically they are council landscapers, and also loaned out to friendly businesses.
It IS indentured servitude.
How can it pay below minimum wage? :huh:
Because that's what the law says.
That's fucked up. It's more like slavery then.
Quote from: Syt on August 27, 2015, 07:15:09 AM
Fuck. Just ... fuck.
http://www.thelocal.at/20150827/horrible-migrant-tragedy-50-dead-in-austria
QuoteMigrant tragedy leaves dozens dead in Austria
Dozens of migrants have been found dead inside a truck on a highway in Austria, police said on Thursday.
The vehicle, which contained between 20 and 50 bodies, was found on a parking strip off the highway in Burgenland state, police spokesman Hans Peter Doskozil said at a press conference with Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner.
"This tragedy affects us all deeply," Mikl-Leitner said.
"Human traffickers are criminals. Anyone still thinking that they're kind helpers cannot be helped."
It was not immediately clear how the migrants had died or how long they had been there.
The gruesome find comes as German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Balkan leaders are meeting in Vienna to seek how to tackle together the biggest migration crisis to hit Europe since World War II.
This year has seen record numbers of people trying to reach the European Union by sea and land as they flee conflict in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.
Ahead of the conference, Austria's Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz warned that his country would consider introducing tougher anti-migration measures including "much tighter border controls", if the EU failed to come up with a unified response.
"Austria has more migrants than Italy and Greece combined... so we shouldn't pretend that only Italy and Greece are affected," he said in an interview with public broadcaster ORF.
reminds me of this: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2000/06/immi-j21.html
it's not going to matter one bit.
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2015, 07:31:57 AM
That's fucked up. It's more like slavery then.
I'm sure they're free to leave if they want.
It seems the truck had been left on the side of the autobahn since at least Wednesday. The refugees have been dead for a while - a road maintenance worker noticed that liquid was dripping from the van and alarmed the police. It turned out that the liquid comes from the decomposing bodies. Police are taking care to properly secure for evidence and leads, but time is pressing with over 30 degrees. So far there's been no clear number of deceased, but it's estimated to be between 20 and 50.
I don't envy the coroners and the police who have to secure the site.
Quote from: Syt on August 27, 2015, 09:40:47 AM
It seems the truck had been left on the side of the autobahn since at least Wednesday. The refugees have been dead for a while - a road maintenance worker noticed that liquid was dripping from the van and alarmed the police. It turned out that the liquid comes from the decomposing bodies. Police are taking care to properly secure for evidence and leads, but time is pressing with over 30 degrees. So far there's been no clear number of deceased, but it's estimated to be between 20 and 50.
I don't envy the coroners and the police who have to secure the site.
yuk. I had one run-in with a decomposing body as archaeologist and it was sufficient.
Hopefully they find those responsible
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 27, 2015, 09:46:56 AM
I had one run-in with a decomposing body as archaeologist and it was sufficient.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.standbyformindcontrol.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F02%2FRaidersForrestal1.jpg&hash=427c3ef4553fb19fac6efb5e35d99915bdded908)
?
So, yeah, the coroners have retrieved more than 70 bodies from the truck. It's estimated that they've been dead for at least two days, so they probably died before reaching Austria (the truck was seen early Wednesday morning near the border in Hungary). The refrigerated truck was branded for a Slovakian chicken farm, but they say the sold their trucks to Hungarians.
It seems that the refugees tried to escape from the truck (doors dented and cut at from the inside), so there's a good chance they suffocated in the truck.
And just to illustrate how "big" the truck is:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.derstandard.at%2F2015%2F08%2F27%2Fburgenland_1.jpg&hash=eaadc0f472f1372e12c5f550ffecaa69d0a70d68)
Over 70 people crammed inside it (men and women, reportedly no children).
:(
In related news a boat sunk near the Libyan coast with 200 feared dead.
What a nightmare. :(
It was 59 men, 8 women and 4 children, most likely from Syria as a Syrian passport was found. The doors show signs of them fighting to get out. :cry:
Three Bulgarians have been arrested in Hungary for alleged human trafficking.
Couple more grand plans from the bills prepared to manage the situation in Hungary:
-There would be a transit zone created on the Serbian border. As I understand, this would be a kind of legal "no mans land" for migrants/refugees: All processing of their asylum requests and such would be done in the transit zone, so until that is done they would have no right to enter Hungary proper.
-There would be a "Mass Migration Caused Crisis Situation" that the government could declare country-wide. What extra powers that would grant them, I haven't read.
Also there will be 3 new/changed crimes added to criminal law:
-illegal border crossing
-damaging of border block (sorry, can't figure out proper translation of it off top of my head, but they mean the fence, in practice)
-interfering with construction of border block
The first one, illegal border crossing, was already a crime during the Cold War. It has been just a felony since.
Migrants/refugees caught doing it will be expelled (is that the right word?) from the country, not imprisoned.
While there's protests/resistance to asylum seekers in most of Germany to some extent (but also a willingness to help them), Saxony is the state with the highest activity in that regard. Even though they have the lowest refugees per capita count.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.zeit.de%2Fteilchen%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F08%2FBildschirmfoto-2015-08-27-um-11.44.24.png&hash=ae6b38494d868f6d838b1a4e8b2aeaabd2ab5953)
(The colors are not related to the numbers.)
So many in Berlin, so few in Bavaria...
Syrians: Building a Better Bremen.
Those ratios coincide pretty closely with my opinion on which areas of Germany are the most tolerant.
My ancestors were North German, but I'd probably fit in better in Bavaria. They seem to have all the fun anyway.
Quote from: Syt on August 28, 2015, 09:30:15 AMEven though they have the lowest refugees per capita count.
Same story here, the hatred is biggest where there are fewest immigrants.
Quote from: Liep on August 28, 2015, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 28, 2015, 09:30:15 AMEven though they have the lowest refugees per capita count.
Same story here, the hatred is biggest where there are fewest immigrants.
The same for countries as a whole ? ; iirc we've sofar taken 216 Syrian refugees vs Germany's plan for 800,000. :hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 28, 2015, 08:01:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on August 28, 2015, 07:58:51 AM
expelled (is that the right word?)
Deported.
It depends. When being deported, one is sent back to the country of origin, after at least an administrative hearing. To be expelled is just to be tossed back across the border you just crossed, or else told to leave. Expelling is not a judicial issue.
Diplomats and pesky tourists or journalists get expelled. Illegal immigrants get deported.
I think Tamas means deported, as you say, since it is a legal action.
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2015, 10:53:26 AM
My ancestors were North German, but I'd probably fit in better in Bavaria. They seem to have all the fun anyway.
Indeed. Bavaria is the West Virginia of Germany.
More interesting details on the "immigrant handling" bills.
It is hard to judge at this stage if this is incompetent rushing on the government's part, or a more sinister plot, but:
-While the aformentioned "crisis situation due to mass migration" is in effect, in the special "entry zone" on the border where they plan to stop the migrants, the army will be used if needed. They will not be acting on their own but in support of the police, but they WILL get police-like powers in the zone, like searching vehicles and putting people under arrest. And while the bill points out they can only use them to defend lives, they WILL be carrying firearms with live ammunition.
-Every asylum seeker entering this the "entry zone" will have his/her request evaluated within 8 days by a judge sent there to handle these requests. If accepted he/she will be permitted inside the country on terms already available for refugees, if not he/she will be deported
-The most controversial/confusing part is that this "crisis situation" will enable the police to search private properties without any court order. All they will need is "reasonable suspicion of illegal immigrants on the premises"
Most sources claim this will be valid within the whole country, others that it only applies to the "entry zone". I haven't read the original text
They basically seem to be immediately switching to measures valid for a zombie apocalypse
Speaking of which, the Interior Minister of Bavaria said on TV yesterday that comparing the current refugees to the displaced Germans at the end of WW2 is an insult to those displaced Germans. Note that he didn't word it that such a comparison is difficult, or is comparing apples to oranges (which would be fair enough). He considers it flat out an insult.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 28, 2015, 10:00:59 AM
Those ratios coincide pretty closely with my opinion on which areas of Germany are the most tolerant.
I imagine that's where the jobs are. If you are a refugee or migrant, you want to find a place where you can get a job. Berlin probably outproduces the entirety of former East Germany.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2015, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 28, 2015, 10:00:59 AM
Those ratios coincide pretty closely with my opinion on which areas of Germany are the most tolerant.
I imagine that's where the jobs are. If you are a refugee or migrant, you want to find a place where you can get a job. Berlin probably outproduces the entirety of former East Germany.
The economically strongest regions are the two southern states.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2015, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 28, 2015, 10:00:59 AM
Those ratios coincide pretty closely with my opinion on which areas of Germany are the most tolerant.
I imagine that's where the jobs are. If you are a refugee or migrant, you want to find a place where you can get a job. Berlin probably outproduces the entirety of former East Germany.
Berlin isn't known for its vibrant economy...
Berlin's GDP was about 109 bn Euro, the five Eastern states have about 300 bn Euro. Germany 2.74 trn Euro.
Quote from: Syt on August 29, 2015, 12:56:59 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 28, 2015, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 28, 2015, 10:00:59 AM
Those ratios coincide pretty closely with my opinion on which areas of Germany are the most tolerant.
I imagine that's where the jobs are. If you are a refugee or migrant, you want to find a place where you can get a job. Berlin probably outproduces the entirety of former East Germany.
The economically strongest regions are the two southern states.
Hesse is actually richer among the non city states
But that's in large part due to Frankfurt, isn't it?
Quote from: Syt on August 29, 2015, 05:06:33 AM
But that's in large part due to Frankfurt, isn't it?
Per capita Wiesbaden (state capital full of retirees) is wealthier), not to mention Bad Homburg. :P
But yeah, Frankfurt, the Stock Exchange, the banks, the airport, even some industry (Höchst) drive things up.
Quote from: Syt on August 29, 2015, 05:06:33 AM
But that's in large part due to Frankfurt, isn't it?
Yes, but what is your point? Bavaria without Munich or BW without Stuttgart isn't as rich either...
True.
Quote"Three young children were found in critical condition due to dehydration on Friday after police in Austria stopped a truck with 26 refugees, Austrian news agency APA reported on Saturday.
The truck with refugees from Syria, Afghanistan and Bangladesh crammed in the back was stopped in the small town of St. Peter am Hart, close to the German border, APA said, quoting local police.
"It was a very close call," David Furtner from the Austrian police was quoted as saying, adding the children had been dizzy due to dehydration in the hot and sticky truck.
"Medical staff told us they would not have made it much longer."
The 29-year-old Romanian driver was arrested, while the children and their parents were taken to the hospital in the nearby town of Braunau."
This is insane.
Quote from: Zanza on August 29, 2015, 08:13:59 AM
Quote from: Syt on August 29, 2015, 05:06:33 AM
But that's in large part due to Frankfurt, isn't it?
Yes, but what is your point? Bavaria without Munich or BW without Stuttgart isn't as rich either...
Actually, Mannheim used to be the industrial capital of BW. Benz, as opposed to Daimler in Stuttgart, started in Mannheim.
Quote from: Syt on August 28, 2015, 04:02:05 PM
Speaking of which, the Interior Minister of Bavaria said on TV yesterday that comparing the current refugees to the displaced Germans at the end of WW2 is an insult to those displaced Germans. Note that he didn't word it that such a comparison is difficult, or is comparing apples to oranges (which would be fair enough). He considers it flat out an insult.
I would say it is an insult to Syrian refugees. Last time I checked Syrians did not aid and abet genocide and war crimes.
Who do you think Assad has working for him?
Quote from: derspiess on August 28, 2015, 10:53:26 AM
My ancestors were North German, but I'd probably fit in better in Bavaria. They seem to have all the fun anyway.
My limited experience is somewhat to the contrary.
Quote from: Martinus on August 29, 2015, 12:27:27 PM
I would say it is an insult to Syrian refugees. Last time I checked Syrians did not aid and abet genocide and war crimes.
This is nuts. The only guys in Syria who are totally clean are The Syrian Free Army, all 60 of them.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 29, 2015, 05:56:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 29, 2015, 12:27:27 PM
I would say it is an insult to Syrian refugees. Last time I checked Syrians did not aid and abet genocide and war crimes.
This is nuts. The only guys in Syria who are totally clean are The Syrian Free Army, all 60 of them.
genocide-clean, not clean-clean.
Quote from: Martinus on August 29, 2015, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 28, 2015, 04:02:05 PM
Speaking of which, the Interior Minister of Bavaria said on TV yesterday that comparing the current refugees to the displaced Germans at the end of WW2 is an insult to those displaced Germans. Note that he didn't word it that such a comparison is difficult, or is comparing apples to oranges (which would be fair enough). He considers it flat out an insult.
I would say it is an insult to Syrian refugees. Last time I checked Syrians did not aid and abet genocide and war crimes.
The Germans will find a solution.
Banksy's art for the occasion:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs.tvp.pl%2Fimages2%2F9%2F5%2F1%2Fuid_951f835ecbfa42616ae10a36ccc56ea61440828785231_width_633_play_0_pos_0_gs_0_height_355.jpg&hash=79eebb6a01340e19caea907713562420fd276b78)
Police in Austria picked up a van yesterday - three kids had to be sent to hospital because they were severely dehydrated.
In the Aegean Sea a patrol boat exchanged fire with a trafficker's boat. A 17 year old refugee died.
Quote from: Syt on August 30, 2015, 06:34:05 AM
Police in Austria picked up a van yesterday - three kids had to be sent to hospital because they were severely dehydrated.
In the Aegean Sea a patrol boat exchanged fire with a trafficker's boat. A 17 year old refugee died.
The three kids and their families have now secretly disappeared from the hospital.
Right wing protestors in Heidenau this past weekend.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.zeit.de%2Fpolitik%2Fdeutschland%2F2015-08%2Fheidenau-aufmarsch%2Fheidenau-aufmarsch-540x304.jpg&hash=1cbae574168cbdba50d93e14e73a56c9384bb572)
Seriously? Are they even German or are they trolls sent by Putin?
Merkel held a press conference today and positioned herself clearly for the first time. They government will set up a several billion Euro program for the refugees. She also said that freedom of movement in the EU necessitates solidarity when it comes to housing refugees. Germany will also likely start deporting West Balkan economic migrants faster.
Any projected fantasy maps of Europe post-Barbarian Invasion 21st Century Edition?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcominganarchy.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F07%2FEuropeMap_2020.jpg&hash=96baa98b23c9f8dc627bf6c60e79dd4a2deee47e)
Apparently the response is lettowism?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kWzMXjlWDO0/hqdefault.jpg)
This one might be more relevant. :hmm:
Catholic State? :x
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kritikon.ilcannocchiale.it%2Fmediamanager%2Fsys.user%2F38880%2Feurope%25202015.jpg&hash=d7653e728c7f16ff1b77bd85550ef9dd2be7ef3a)
Quote from: citizen k on August 31, 2015, 04:14:25 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kritikon.ilcannocchiale.it%2Fmediamanager%2Fsys.user%2F38880%2Feurope%25202015.jpg&hash=d7653e728c7f16ff1b77bd85550ef9dd2be7ef3a)
Meowtf?
I think these predictions of the demise of Russia are overly optimistic.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 31, 2015, 04:09:45 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kWzMXjlWDO0/hqdefault.jpg)
This one might be more relevant. :hmm:
It is good to see the Irish came around.
Quote from: Syt on August 31, 2015, 07:20:40 AM
Right wing protestors in Heidenau this past weekend.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.zeit.de%2Fpolitik%2Fdeutschland%2F2015-08%2Fheidenau-aufmarsch%2Fheidenau-aufmarsch-540x304.jpg&hash=1cbae574168cbdba50d93e14e73a56c9384bb572)
Really needs a whiff of grapeshot.
Quote from: citizen k on August 31, 2015, 04:14:25 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kritikon.ilcannocchiale.it%2Fmediamanager%2Fsys.user%2F38880%2Feurope%25202015.jpg&hash=d7653e728c7f16ff1b77bd85550ef9dd2be7ef3a)
So, who's in line to be Prince of Poland? Marti?
Considering how the other Pakistan is going they might as well just call it 'Only Pakistan'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/iceland/11835537/10000-Icelanders-offer-to-house-Syrian-refugees-after-authors-call.html
Quote10,000 Icelanders offer to house Syrian refugees after author's call
Government says it is looking at offers and will consider accepting more refugees after initially saying it would only take 50.
Ten thousand Icelanders have offered to welcome Syrian refugees into their homes, as part of a Facebook campaign launched by a prominent author after the government said it would take in only a handful.
After the Icelandic government announced last month that it would only accept 50 humanitarian refugees from Syria, Bryndis Bjorgvinsdottir encouraged fellow citizens to speak out in favour of those in need of asylum. In the space of 24 hours, 10,000 Icelanders – the country's population is 300,000 – took to Facebook to offer up their homes and urge their government to do more.
"I'm a single mother with a 6-year-old son... We can take a child in need. I'm a teacher and would teach the child to speak, read and write Icelandic and adjust to Icelandic society. We have clothes, a bed, toys and everything a child needs. I would of course pay for the airplane ticket," wrote Hekla Stefansdottir in a post.
"I think people have had enough of seeing news stories from the Mediterranean and refugee camps of dying people and they want something done now", Bjorgvinsdottir told Icelandic public television RUV.
Welfare Minister Eyglo Hardardottir told RUV that authorities were examining offers made on Facebook, and would consider upping the number of refugees accepted under a humanitarian quota.
"I have made it clear that I don't want to name a maximum figure", she said. "But we (will) explore every avenue available in welcoming more refugees".
The Icelandic government is now looking at increasing its refugee quota.
It is not like Iceland has a space shortage. Good for them.
What if the refugees sent to Iceland want to refuge into Germany? Will Iceland stop them?
Quote from: Tamas on September 01, 2015, 10:12:58 AM
What if the refugees sent to Iceland want to refuge into Germany? Will Iceland stop them?
How are they going to get to Germany? Longship?
Quote from: Valmy on September 01, 2015, 10:45:17 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 01, 2015, 10:12:58 AM
What if the refugees sent to Iceland want to refuge into Germany? Will Iceland stop them?
How are they going to get to Germany? Longship?
So they are going to be detained on Iceland then?
Is Iceland part of the freedom of movement aspect that EU member states have?
Quote from: garbon on September 01, 2015, 11:03:09 AM
Is Iceland part of the freedom of movement aspect that EU member states have?
Yes, Iceland is part of Schengen.
I didn't think any detention was needed. They would have to pay a significant amount of money to get to Germany from Iceland. Presumably that young refugee kid living with that Icelandic family would have a hard time scrapping his or her pennies together.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 01, 2015, 11:07:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 01, 2015, 11:03:09 AM
Is Iceland part of the freedom of movement aspect that EU member states have?
Yes, Iceland is part of Schengen.
Then I suppose Tamas already has his answer. <_<
At any rate, yes, it seems odd, but understandable, to support freedom of movement only when it benefits you.
Yeah this is nice of the Icelandic guys but I think it is highly naive:
From Hungarian happenings it seems quite clear that 99% of Syrians are desperate to get to Germany. Maybe they think thats the only good country in the EU and/or they already have family there.
I am pretty sure none of them is imagining Iceland to be the land they settle on, however. If they will be moved there, there is a very good chance it will be against their will.
It would be interesting to know why they think that Germany is the land of milk and honey. I mean, it's not too bad here, but it's not noticeably better than other EU countries...
They cannot even partake in Germany's finest cultural achievement :weep:
What is Germany's finest cultural achievement?
Quote from: Zanza on September 01, 2015, 12:06:09 PM
What is Germany's finest cultural achievement?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fde.web.img1.acsta.net%2Fmedias%2Fnmedia%2F18%2F68%2F46%2F23%2F18852909.jpg&hash=c5fbf20c539c173db7ed9db8421151295e4f97e1)
Quote from: Syt on September 01, 2015, 12:07:19 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 01, 2015, 12:06:09 PM
What is Germany's finest cultural achievement?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fde.web.img1.acsta.net%2Fmedias%2Fnmedia%2F18%2F68%2F46%2F23%2F18852909.jpg&hash=c5fbf20c539c173db7ed9db8421151295e4f97e1)
:wub:
Quote from: Zanza on September 01, 2015, 12:06:09 PM
What is Germany's finest cultural achievement?
The thing their former colonial subjects actually decided to keep.
Hitler avoided this thing.
By the way I think what is materialising in things, especially in his Hungary has been playing with migrant travel accesses in recent days, is a very double-faced acting from Germany: they openly declare to accept all Syrian refugees, but then demand tighter control from border states. Hungary and Austria must be doing their machinations (sometimes letting migrants board trains sometimes not) in reply to that: in Hungary, wether it's a poker game with Merkel or just panic as Merkel phones down and slaps Orban around, I am not sure, but I am certain it is related.
Not as bad as the French foreign minister though: they restart border controls at the Italian border, they let the chaos in Calais continue then yell at Hungary for their fence
Germany said it would not use the mechanism from the Dublin Agreement to send back refugees that made it to Germany. It did not say that Hungary or Austria should just stop enforcing that agreement and let everybody come. They should have communicated that more clearly.
Or Germany should just accept the desire of these people to come here and do tell Hungary and Austria to let them pass. That does not fit the redistribution agenda Germany follows in the EU.
Quote from: Zanza on September 01, 2015, 12:59:07 PM
Germany said it would not use the mechanism from the Dublin Agreement to send back refugees that made it to Germany. It did not say that Hungary or Austria should just stop enforcing that agreement and let everybody come. They should have communicated that more clearly.
Or Germany should just accept the desire of these people to come here and do tell Hungary and Austria to let them pass. That does not fit the redistribution agenda Germany follows in the EU.
Well yeah I guess this might be part of Merkel trying to balance all public opinion, couldn't it? She makes grand welcoming statements, but then behind the scenes tries to keep as much of the migrants out as possible via pressuring Hungary, so to minimise the chance of some far-right incident happening that would force her to speak her mind about the whole setting shelters on fire thing.
Quote from: Barrister on August 31, 2015, 04:15:53 PM
Meowtf?
Indeed. There's no way Sweden would emerge intact.
We should be the ones taking in all these Syrians. We took all those Lebanese and they were cool.
Following a couple of days of confusion and not telling the migrants a single thing at the major international train station in Budapest, right now some riot police is facing off with a few hundred migrant young men who are clearly having enough of not knowing shit just being shut off from the station.
I mean, Hungary is just doing what its supposed to do, keeping its registered refugees from getting deeper into the EU, but it would be nice to actually tell that to the refugees themselves.
Then again, the government could use an escalation to keep up their popularity-rise on this whole ordeal.
Minister of Interior for Bavaria said that Hungary should be helped so that refugees can't get through to Germany, and the Syrian refugees should not have considered the German decision on taking them all in as a "free ticket".
But that's what I was talking about: this was very dishonest from Germany and contributed to escalate the situation one step further: there is NO WAY for Syrians to get to Germany without illegally avoiding processing and other rules in Hungary or Italy.
Minister of Interior of Bavaria seems like a right bastard. It seems the hopes for denazification of Germany were premature.
A few days ago he called a famous singer on a TV show a "wunderbarer Neger," pointing him out as positive example of integration. Unfortunately, "Neger" is consider very politically incorrect to denote a black person these days.
Quote from: Syt on September 02, 2015, 06:18:57 AM
A few days ago he called a famous singer on a TV show a "wunderbarer Neger," pointing him out as positive example of integration. Unfortunately, "Neger" is consider very politically incorrect to denote a black person these days.
Who would have thunk. :D
Quote from: Tamas on September 02, 2015, 05:31:38 AM
I mean, Hungary is just doing what its supposed to do, keeping its registered refugees from getting deeper into the EU, but it would be nice to actually tell that to the refugees themselves.
And possible before the refugees have spend half their life savings on train tickets.
Two tweets by Munich's police yesterday.
QuotePolizei München @PolizeiMuenchen 1. Sep.
We are thrilled by the myriad of relief supplies the citizens of #Munich provided for the refugees at the Central Station.
QuotePolizei München @PolizeiMuenchen 1. Sep.
Please do not bring any more goods for the Moment.The donations at hand will be sufficient for the refugees present and arriving today.
I am happy about this reaction by many of my fellow citizens. :)
Quote from: Zanza on September 02, 2015, 01:28:02 PM
Two tweets by Munich's police yesterday.
QuotePolizei München @PolizeiMuenchen 1. Sep.
We are thrilled by the myriad of relief supplies the citizens of #Munich provided for the refugees at the Central Station.
QuotePolizei München @PolizeiMuenchen 1. Sep.
Please do not bring any more goods for the Moment.The donations at hand will be sufficient for the refugees present and arriving today.
I am happy about this reaction by many of my fellow citizens. :)
Very good. Seems like this is happening elsewhere too.
Quote from: Zanza on September 02, 2015, 01:28:02 PM
Two tweets by Munich's police yesterday.
QuotePolizei München @PolizeiMuenchen 1. Sep.
We are thrilled by the myriad of relief supplies the citizens of #Munich provided for the refugees at the Central Station.
QuotePolizei München @PolizeiMuenchen 1. Sep.
Please do not bring any more goods for the Moment.The donations at hand will be sufficient for the refugees present and arriving today.
I am happy about this reaction by many of my fellow citizens. :)
Germany putting us Brits to shame, Prime Minster downwward.
But if the British did do that they might start feeling proud to be British...and that's never good.
To be fair, Germany has also seen much more violent attacks on refugees or immigrants than Britain. So it's not all rosy here.
I just donated some jeans I never use anymore, couple of warm sweaters and some random assortment of clothes and books in English at the local intake of such things.
Yes, they were all cleaned and in good condition.
Quote from: Zanza on September 02, 2015, 01:28:02 PM
Two tweets by Munich's police yesterday.
QuotePolizei München @PolizeiMuenchen 1. Sep.
We are thrilled by the myriad of relief supplies the citizens of #Munich provided for the refugees at the Central Station.
QuotePolizei München @PolizeiMuenchen 1. Sep.
Please do not bring any more goods for the Moment.The donations at hand will be sufficient for the refugees present and arriving today.
I am happy about this reaction by many of my fellow citizens. :)
Well, now you know the answer to this question.
QuoteIt would be interesting to know why they think that Germany is the land of milk and honey. I mean, it's not too bad here, but it's not noticeably better than other EU countries...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2015/sep/01/mama-merkel-the-compassionate-mother-of-syrian-refugees (http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2015/sep/01/mama-merkel-the-compassionate-mother-of-syrian-refugees)
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/9/1/1441118333600/c54e366e-4c44-4c12-af01-212d41beaa08-620x522.jpeg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=1ad8d45a7adddffedf696c88d840428b)
Quote
Angela Merkel is seven months old and currently lives in a refugee camp in Hanover, with about 700 other migrants from 33 countries. Her mother, 26-year-old Ghanaian Ophelya Adé, arrived in Germany this year, after crossing the Mediterranean while heavily pregnant. In an interview with Der Spiegel, she said she named her daughter after the German chancellor because: "I was so grateful, so relieved that Angela Merkel is accepting us, so impressed with what this woman is achieving here."
Quote
On Facebook, there are pages with titles such as "Mama Merkel, Mother of the Outcasts", and Syrians are sharing images of the chancellor with slogans such as "Wir lieben dich" ("We love you") or "Compassionate mother".
Some posts carry the hashtag #Merkel_TheEthiopian, a reference to the story of Ashama ibn Abjar, a benign Christian ruler who gave shelter to Muslim refugees in the kingdom of Axum (now northern Ethiopia and Eritrea) at the time of Muhammad. Other images are photoshopped to contrast the German politician's compassion with the perceived heartlessness of Arab leaders.
Just think Brits. That could have been David Cameron.
But seriously it does appear the Syrians have gotten the idea that Germany is their savior. That is quite a burden for Germany to shoulder.
Of course the Daily Mail was reporting last month that Germans were so racist the Syrians all wanted to go back to Syria :hmm:
I expect Merkel to breed three dragons any time now. :nerd:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.faz.net%2Fppmedia%2Faktuell%2F2873310493%2F1.3782845%2Farticle_multimedia_overview%2Fder-koerper-des-toten-jungen.jpg&hash=687992cd5aacb8380920fa6d2277e9c8094ce6c4)
A three year old Syrian boy drowned when trying to cross from Turkey to Greece. :cry:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34133210
:(
Ok this confusion is getting ridicoulous.
After a couple of days of a wall of police keeping the migrants out of the international train station of Budapest, this morning the police disappeared. Nobody got notified about anything, not the press, nor the public, let alone the migrants. Just poof the police was gone, apart from like 8 officers vs. hundreds of desperate people, who of course flooded the station as soon as they realised the way was open. They stormed the first train they could find, only leaving it when they were told it was going toward southern Hungary.
Now, if we assume this was mere incompetence, then the reason for the police leaving was that the station has stopped sending out trains to the West. So I guess police thought crisis is solved.
Then came the part from a cheap tragic comedy.
As the migrants flooded the station, a nostalgia train remembering the Pan-European picnic (when we let those East Germans through to Austria) pulled in to the station. With wagons full of German text, and a big German flag proudly waving on the train....
Needless to say the migrants pretty much assaulted it. I am hoping this has been solved now, but initially the passengers already on the train were not able to leave it because it became so full in a matter of minutes. Last time I read, it was still choke full of people. It is not going anywhere, but the migrants don't believe this, so they fry in a shut off train with the A/C off (as the whole train is just standing. Heck, last time I heard, the Hungarian passengers were stuck being unable to leave the train.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPDLtBVBkvU
And now Vienna is saying that they will just let migrants through without registering or stopping them. This is about two days after they stopped EVERYONE at the Austrian-Hungarian border.
WTF is going on?!
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/0005706c5532477c93991b6251336af8/canada-woman-had-tried-sponsor-boy-who-drowned-turkey
QuoteCanada woman had tried to sponsor boy who drowned off Turkey
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — A lawmaker says a woman in Canada had tried to sponsor Syrian relatives who drowned off the coast of Turkey, including a 3-year-old boy whose lifeless body was shown in photographs that are galvanizing debate around the world.
Canadian legislator Fin Donnelly told The Canadian Press that the Vancouver-area woman had sought to sponsor the mother and two children but that her request was turned down by Canadian immigration officials.
Donnelly said the woman tried to sponsor her nephews Aylan and Galip Kurdi and their mother, all three of whom drowned.
Images of the body of Aylan, 3, washing up on a Turkish shore shocked the world and prompted emotional appeals Thursday to governments to do more to help migrants.
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 04:09:56 AM
WTF is going on?!
I have been asking myself the same question several times over the past few weeks.
My answer so far is that everyone is busy washing their hands.
Meanwhile Orban says that the refugee crisis is a German issue, not an EU issue, since all refugees want to go to Germany, anyways.
There was one train they let go with migrants, it was supposed to go to Sopron, close to the Austrian border.
It was stopped around 30% of the way, at the station close to one of the refugee camps, by around 100 police officers. Legit passengers (ie. Hungarian citizens, non-refugees) were sent to another train which was waiting for them, refugees are put on buses, no doubt heading to the camp, which of course they do not like.
Quote from: Syt on September 03, 2015, 04:47:11 AM
Meanwhile Orban says that the refugee crisis is a German issue, not an EU issue, since all refugees want to go to Germany, anyways.
Sweden is jealous.
Yesterday a Dutch girl was endlessly ranting about how all the foreigners want to go to Holland.
I guess it's a unifying characteristic of right wingers the world over.
QuoteThey stormed the first train they could find, only leaving it when they were told it was going toward southern Hungary.
:lol:
Comedy gold.
Don't you have signs on your trains and platforms?
QuoteAs the migrants flooded the station, a nostalgia train remembering the Pan-European picnic (when we let those East Germans through to Austria) pulled in to the station. With wagons full of German text, and a big German flag proudly waving on the train....
Needless to say the migrants pretty much assaulted it. I am hoping this has been solved now, but initially the passengers already on the train were not able to leave it because it became so full in a matter of minutes. Last time I read, it was still choke full of people. It is not going anywhere, but the migrants don't believe this, so they fry in a shut off train with the A/C off (as the whole train is just standing. Heck, last time I heard, the Hungarian passengers were stuck being unable to leave the train.
Funny, but also pretty horrible. I would imagine most of the true passengers on that train were pretty old people :(
What's with the train crisis anyway? It has never been such an issue before. Merely announcing a free for all could perhaps contribute but given the timescales in movement I doubt it's the bulk of the story
Quote from: Tyr on September 03, 2015, 06:03:14 AM
Yesterday a Dutch girl was endlessly ranting about how all the foreigners want to go to Holland.
I guess it's a unifying characteristic of right wingers scumbags the world over.
FYP.
Quote from: Tyr on September 03, 2015, 06:03:14 AM
Yesterday a Dutch girl was endlessly ranting about how all the foreigners want to go to Holland.
I guess it's a unifying characteristic of right wingers the world over.
QuoteThey stormed the first train they could find, only leaving it when they were told it was going toward southern Hungary.
:lol:
Comedy gold.
Don't you have signs on your trains and platforms?
Yes. Don't think they are more versed in Hungarian geography than you are, though.
So is this the future?
I get the concerns of the conservatives and how destabilizing having lots of immigrants is on a continent which bases everything on nationalism and ethnic states. Heck far from that receding it seems they just keep wanting more of those.
But the world is changing, not just for Westerners but for everybody. The more I look at the absurdities happening at all these borders the more I continue to think we need to basically just have open borders like the Euros do internally. I mean sure we can stamp everybody's passport to make sure they aren't wanted criminals or whatever but immigration controls seem so 20th century and out of touch with the nature of the globalized economy and society. It will all break down eventually, let's just get it over with and let nature take its course.
Quote from: Syt on September 03, 2015, 04:10:40 AM
QuoteCanada woman had tried to sponsor boy who drowned off Turkey
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — A lawmaker says a woman in Canada had tried to sponsor Syrian relatives who drowned off the coast of Turkey, including a 3-year-old boy whose lifeless body was shown in photographs that are galvanizing debate around the world.
Canadian legislator Fin Donnelly told The Canadian Press that the Vancouver-area woman had sought to sponsor the mother and two children but that her request was turned down by Canadian immigration officials.
Donnelly said the woman tried to sponsor her nephews Aylan and Galip Kurdi and their mother, all three of whom drowned.
Images of the body of Aylan, 3, washing up on a Turkish shore shocked the world and prompted emotional appeals Thursday to governments to do more to help migrants.
She's the sister of the boy's father, who survived.
QuoteTeema Kurdi, Abdullah's sister who lives in Vancouver, told Canada's National Post newspaper that she had been trying to help them leave the Middle East.
Abdullah is reported to have been kidnapped and tortured during the siege of Kobane by Islamic State or another jihadist group.
"I was trying to sponsor them [...] but we couldn't get them out, and that is why they went in the boat," she said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34133210 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34133210)
Quote from: Queequeg on September 03, 2015, 07:41:05 AM
So is this the future?
No. This is here and now.
The future is unwritten.
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2015, 07:47:00 AM
...
but immigration controls seem so 20th century and out of touch with the nature of the globalized economy and society. It will all break down eventually, let's just get it over with and let nature take its course.
Really Valmy, I didn't know you for such naive angelism... Allowing hordes of 3rd worlders to roam wherever they will is the surest way to destabilize and impoverish what's left of the West.
G.
Quote from: Grallon on September 03, 2015, 08:29:28 AM
Really Valmy, I didn't know you for such naive angelism... Allowing hordes of 3rd worlders to roam wherever they will is the surest way to destabilize and impoverish what's left of the West.
Well the problem is they flooded Texas and everything is fine. Better than fine, it is why this place is going to be a prosperous and important place for decades to come (well presuming climate change doesn't completely fuck us) So it is hard for me to get too freaked out about it. At the end of the day I cannot help but feel we could have spared ourselves a lot of time and money just by letting them all in to begin with, they pretty much all got in anyway.
Granted the vast majority of our people are Catholics from the country just over that way who share a lot of cultural characteristics. But still our nativists were constantly worried we would all be speaking Spanish and crap. The Mexican and Latino tide is ebbing and nothing of the sort ever happened.
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2015, 08:33:27 AM
Quote from: Grallon on September 03, 2015, 08:29:28 AM
Really Valmy, I didn't know you for such naive angelism... Allowing hordes of 3rd worlders to roam wherever they will is the surest way to destabilize and impoverish what's left of the West.
Well the problem is they flooded Texas and everything is fine. Better than fine, it is why this place is going to be a prosperous and important place for decades to come (well presuming climate change doesn't completely fuck us) So it is hard for me to get too freaked out about it. At the end of the day I cannot help but feel we could have spared ourselves a lot of time and money just by letting them all in to begin with, they pretty much all got in anyway.
Granted the vast majority of our people are Catholics from the country just over that way who share a lot of cultural characteristics. But still our nativists were constantly worried we would all be speaking Spanish and crap. The Mexican and Latino tide is ebbing and nothing of the sort ever happened.
I would be subscribing to your idea if we didn' have all these modern welfare state things going on. Because of those, you need to be quite sure that your extra incoming population starts being productive and self-reliant on a very short time frame otherwise they might become a burden that makes you unelectable.
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 09:05:05 AM
I would be subscribing to your idea if we didn' have all these modern welfare state things going on. Because of those, you need to be quite sure that your extra incoming population starts being productive and self-reliant on a very short time frame otherwise they might become a burden that makes you unelectable.
True Euro-style welfare states probably could not survive mass immigration. Which is why it is kind of funny the left is so in favor of it. Grallon seems to get that part.
I figured you would see this as a feature and not a bug :P
After this train that lured migrants onto it with the promise of the western border and in fact stopping them at a refugee camp, another train did more or less the same with a smaller group, but stopping further west close to another camp.
The first group has been, AFAIK, put on buses after much issues and drama. The second, much smaller group departed the train in peace but has been refusing to leave the tiny train station they are at. Police is paralyzed right now as they -I guess- don't want to start manhandling a bunch of families.
My wife saw the press conference hosted by the Hungarian president, whom she had not seen before. She quickly concluded that he is a moron :unsure:
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2015, 09:07:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 09:05:05 AM
I would be subscribing to your idea if we didn' have all these modern welfare state things going on. Because of those, you need to be quite sure that your extra incoming population starts being productive and self-reliant on a very short time frame otherwise they might become a burden that makes you unelectable.
True Euro-style welfare states probably could not survive mass immigration. Which is why it is kind of funny the left is so in favor of it. Grallon seems to get that part.
I figured you would see this as a feature and not a bug :P
Europe will implode and collapse before truly liberal states return.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 03, 2015, 09:08:53 AM
My wife saw the press conference hosted by the Hungarian president, whom she had not seen before. She quickly concluded that he is a moron :unsure:
You are wrong. He is the Prime Minister
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 09:09:32 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 03, 2015, 09:08:53 AM
My wife saw the press conference hosted by the Hungarian president, whom she had not seen before. She quickly concluded that he is a moron :unsure:
You are wrong. He is the Prime Minister
Oh well. She told me he was the "president".
Quote from: Monoriu on September 03, 2015, 09:11:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 09:09:32 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 03, 2015, 09:08:53 AM
My wife saw the press conference hosted by the Hungarian president, whom she had not seen before. She quickly concluded that he is a moron :unsure:
You are wrong. He is the Prime Minister
Oh well. She told me he was the "president".
I wanted to make a joke that I did not correct you on the moron part :P
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 09:14:05 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 03, 2015, 09:11:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 09:09:32 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 03, 2015, 09:08:53 AM
My wife saw the press conference hosted by the Hungarian president, whom she had not seen before. She quickly concluded that he is a moron :unsure:
You are wrong. He is the Prime Minister
Oh well. She told me he was the "president".
I wanted to make a joke that I did not correct you on the moron part :P
I got that part :lol:
Actually I was wrong. First Fooled Trainload people are still there and in some kind of stalled situation with the police.
BTW, Janos Lazar, Orban's right-hand man told the press today that the "let them in, close them out, let them in, close them out" game in the previous few days at the big train station was because Germany "phoned them" (the government) and asked them to let through a few hundred unregistered Syrians without any publicity, but then changed their minds.
I am not sure which is worse: if he is lying, or if he is telling the truth. On general principle though, he generally lies.
Quote from: Zanza on September 03, 2015, 01:36:33 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.faz.net%2Fppmedia%2Faktuell%2F2873310493%2F1.3782845%2Farticle_multimedia_overview%2Fder-koerper-des-toten-jungen.jpg&hash=687992cd5aacb8380920fa6d2277e9c8094ce6c4)
A three year old Syrian boy drowned when trying to cross from Turkey to Greece. :cry:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34133210
He's going to become the "Cecil the Lion" of the syrian refugee crisis.
Yes, you can use my analogy freely.
I noticed in 'Merkel is the new King of Ethiopia' article it mentioned the 'heartlessness of Arab leaders'.
Any particular reason they treat other Arab refugees and migrants so bad? I know the Palestinians get treated like shit as well when they try to leave Israel/Palestine.
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2015, 09:07:02 AM
True Euro-style welfare states probably could not survive mass immigration. Which is why it is kind of funny the left is so in favor of it. Grallon seems to get that part.
I figured you would see this as a feature and not a bug :P
I think the welfare states can survive with adaptation, and in fact if done properly it could deal with the open borders problem. Assign each state a "refugee pool" which would be money for refugees exclusively. Set the amount based on GDP, population or whatever other desired metric. Split the pool for a state evenly between all refugees to that state. It'll encourage refugees to spread out amongst the member states rather than concentrating in just a few.
Valmy's idea to just open the gates would not work. We need to limit and regulate migration. Our societal order with its huge achievement the social state does not allow limitless migration.
Neither do our reasonable real estate prices.
Quote from: Zanza on September 03, 2015, 09:50:01 AM
Valmy's idea to just open the gates would not work. We need to limit and regulate migration. Our societal order with its huge achievement the social state does not allow limitless migration.
The migration would not be limitless. Having open borders in the EU has not meant an infinite number of Bulgarians have poured across your borders. It would be the same. Most people want to stay home.
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2015, 10:12:04 AM
The migration would not be limitless. Having open borders in the EU has not meant an infinite number of Bulgarians have poured across your borders.
There was (and is) a lot of fear mongering about "migration of poors" from Bulgaria and Romania into other, richer countries.
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2015, 10:12:04 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 03, 2015, 09:50:01 AM
Valmy's idea to just open the gates would not work. We need to limit and regulate migration. Our societal order with its huge achievement the social state does not allow limitless migration.
The migration would not be limitless. Having open borders in the EU has not meant an infinite number of Bulgarians have poured across your borders. It would be the same. Most people want to stay home.
In case of Bulgarians and other east euros you are right. However on a worldwide scale there are multiples of the entire EU population who have an absolutely shitty fate even compared to the poorest of the poor within the EU.
Funnily enough Orban is just talking about this in a press conference: he is calling it a "migration wave with limitless supply" and that's why he says we need to make it clear to those who would come: they cannot enter
Quote from: frunk on September 03, 2015, 09:40:49 AM
I think the welfare states can survive with adaptation, and in fact if done properly it could deal with the open borders problem. Assign each state a "refugee pool" which would be money for refugees exclusively. Set the amount based on GDP, population or whatever other desired metric. Split the pool for a state evenly between all refugees to that state. It'll encourage refugees to spread out amongst the member states rather than concentrating in just a few.
And if more come here, we let them starve? :huh:
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
That depends on how it is done, doesn't it. Most European big cities shouldn't bear the brunt of more immigrants. Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better. However, people tend to seek to their own kin and nationality, and we end up with ghettos. My hometown needs more people, small places around Norway need more people and have proven adept at integrating people from such diverse places as Myanmar and Somalia. Oslo definitely doesn't need more people.
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better.
I don't think that is accurate. Cities are where jobs and educational opportunities are more plentiful.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better.
I don't think that is accurate. Cities are where jobs and educational opportunities are more plentiful.
Cities have jobs and education if you speak the language of the city.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better.
I don't think that is accurate. Cities are where jobs and educational opportunities are more plentiful.
Cities are also where even a decent wage can have you living in a shithole.
Quote from: Liep on September 03, 2015, 12:58:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better.
I don't think that is accurate. Cities are where jobs and educational opportunities are more plentiful.
Cities have jobs and education if you speak the language of the city.
And in order to learn to speak the language education is required.
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2015, 01:01:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better.
I don't think that is accurate. Cities are where jobs and educational opportunities are more plentiful.
Cities are also where even a decent wage can have you living in a shithole.
Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch, what you think of as a shithole is likely very welcome for these desperate people.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better.
I don't think that is accurate. Cities are where jobs and educational opportunities are more plentiful.
Yes and no.
If you're already educated, you might find a job.
Or you end up on welfare handouts and live with your own people, and resent society. Sort of like an immigrant Seedy.
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 01:19:15 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better.
I don't think that is accurate. Cities are where jobs and educational opportunities are more plentiful.
Yes and no.
If you're already educated, you might find a job.
Or you end up on welfare handouts and live with your own people, and resent society. Sort of like an immigrant Seedy.
And if someone is young and not yet educated sending them off to a rural setting where there are no educational opportunities will help ensure they remain uneducated.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 01:16:58 PM
Quote from: Liep on September 03, 2015, 12:58:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better.
I don't think that is accurate. Cities are where jobs and educational opportunities are more plentiful.
Cities have jobs and education if you speak the language of the city.
And in order to learn to speak the language education is required.
Yes, and you can learn the language better with fewer people around. Classes are everywhere.
For Norway's part, we are talking about just 8 000 Syrian refugees. Most of whom probably already have an education.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 01:18:18 PM
Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch, what you think of as a shithole is likely very welcome for these desperate people.
And a few decades later their kids will be rioting at their hopeless existence in urban ghettos. Meanwhile in the European countryside entire villages are being sold.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 01:21:05 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 01:19:15 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 12:10:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 12:04:13 PM
BTW, while I think the quota system within the EU is the only sensible solution on the table at the moment, I have the suspicion that it will indirectly recreate the Palestinian refugee camps around Israel in many ways: de facto ghettos of poverty and seclusion.
Immigrants function better in smaller communities and get integrated better.
I don't think that is accurate. Cities are where jobs and educational opportunities are more plentiful.
Yes and no.
If you're already educated, you might find a job.
Or you end up on welfare handouts and live with your own people, and resent society. Sort of like an immigrant Seedy.
And if someone is young and not yet educated sending them off to a rural setting where there are no educational opportunities will help ensure they remain uneducated.
There is no such thing as a lack of oppurtunity to go to school even in rural Norway. We are: A socialist paradise.
Sweden only has schools in the major cities. Why waste education on a peasant?
Quote from: Valmy on September 03, 2015, 01:21:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 01:18:18 PM
Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch, what you think of as a shithole is likely very welcome for these desperate people.
And a few decades later their kids will be rioting at their hopeless existence in urban ghettos. Meanwhile in the European countryside entire villages are being sold.
This is true.
If you continue to stuff cities full of people with no prospects, and continue the policies of ghettoisation around the large metropolitan areas, you will reap what you sow.
Quote from: The Brain on September 03, 2015, 01:23:14 PM
Sweden only has schools in the major cities. Why waste education on a peasant?
Was it during the 70s that Sweden abandoned all support for keeping people in the countryside? When I drive through Värmland or Jämtland, it's like driving through wilderness except for the roads.
In Norway, we still spend a lot of tax payers' money on keeping the rural areas in the north alive.
When Afghan refugees first turned up here in the early 80s, I asked my father why we didn't send them to the Dovre mountains and let them milk the sheep. I'd seen photos and newsreels from Afghanistan and figured these people liked mountains and sheep.
I think it is time for the west, since half of syria is apprently trying to get in, to let Iran deal mop the floor with the Rebels & reinstate Assad control over Syria properly.
Remember when Iran was a friendly country? Thanks, Reagan.
Quote from: Tamas on September 03, 2015, 06:08:12 AM
Quote from: Tyr on September 03, 2015, 06:03:14 AM
Yesterday a Dutch girl was endlessly ranting about how all the foreigners want to go to Holland.
I guess it's a unifying characteristic of right wingers the world over.
QuoteThey stormed the first train they could find, only leaving it when they were told it was going toward southern Hungary.
:lol:
Comedy gold.
Don't you have signs on your trains and platforms?
Yes. Don't think they are more versed in Hungarian geography than you are, though.
I thought they were just after international trains?
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 01:30:31 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 03, 2015, 01:23:14 PM
Sweden only has schools in the major cities. Why waste education on a peasant?
Was it during the 70s that Sweden abandoned all support for keeping people in the countryside? When I drive through Värmland or Jämtland, it's like driving through wilderness except for the roads.
In Norway, we still spend a lot of tax payers' money on keeping the rural areas in the north alive.
When Afghan refugees first turned up here in the early 80s, I asked my father why we didn't send them to the Dovre mountains and let them milk the sheep. I'd seen photos and newsreels from Afghanistan and figured these people liked mountains and sheep.
People can live where they want as far as I'm concerned. I don't tell them how to live their lives.
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 02:44:57 PM
Remember when Iran was a friendly country? Thanks, Reagan.
Oh yeah, super-friendly, holding Americans hostages for over a year.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 03, 2015, 03:29:01 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 02:44:57 PM
Remember when Iran was a friendly country? Thanks, Reagan.
Oh yeah, super-friendly, holding Americans hostages for over a year.
Yeah, he is definitely blaming the wrong President.
"President Reagan" was actually an actor.
Quote from: The Brain on September 03, 2015, 03:32:08 PM
"President Reagan" was actually an actor.
An extremely good one at that too. He led millions to believe he could actually be president too, and be good at it.
Some people (no pun intended) in Poland are reposting this poem by Wislawa Szymborska (Polish literature Nobel Prize winner) from 1990s. Here is a relatively good translation - I found it very poignant.
QuoteSome people
Some people fleeing some other people.
In some country under the sun
and some clouds.
They leave behind some of their everything,
sown fields, some chickens, dogs,
mirrors in which fire now sees itself reflected.
On their backs are pitchers and bundles,
the emptier, the heavier from one day to the next.
Taking place stealthily is somebody's stopping,
and in the commotion, somebody's bread somebody's snatching
and a dead child somebody's shaking.
In front of them some still not the right way,
nor the bridge that should be
over a river strangely rosy.
Around them, some gunfire, at times closer, at times farther off,
and, above, a plane circling somewhat.
Some invisibility would come in handy,
some grayish stoniness,
or even better, non-being
for a little or a long while.
Something else is yet to happen, only where and what?
Someone will head toward them, only when and who,
in how many shapes and with what intentions?
Given a choice,
maybe he will choose not to be the enemy and
leave them with some kind of life.
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 02:44:57 PM
Remember when Iran was a friendly country? Thanks, Reagan.
Thanks Obeisenhower!
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 02:44:57 PM
Remember when Iran was a friendly country? Thanks, Reagan.
:console:
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 03, 2015, 03:30:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 03, 2015, 03:29:01 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 03, 2015, 02:44:57 PM
Remember when Iran was a friendly country? Thanks, Reagan.
Oh yeah, super-friendly, holding Americans hostages for over a year.
Yeah, he is definitely blaming the wrong President.
Yeah, I forgot he was the one with the Contras deal.
Anyway, he was a danger to the world and I am happy he is deader than Carter.
Quote from: Zanza on September 03, 2015, 01:36:33 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.faz.net%2Fppmedia%2Faktuell%2F2873310493%2F1.3782845%2Farticle_multimedia_overview%2Fder-koerper-des-toten-jungen.jpg&hash=687992cd5aacb8380920fa6d2277e9c8094ce6c4)
A three year old Syrian boy drowned when trying to cross from Turkey to Greece. :cry:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34133210
So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
Blame Canadian bureaucracy. :(
It is America's fault.
The Twittersphere is really getting activated by this immigrant thing all of the sudden. People are raising money to do things about the immigrant crisis. What I am not sure. Seems rather KONY2012ish. We will see.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
[So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
There's an industry of self flagellation going strong in the West. So no doubt there are some idiots already mouthing that this tragedy is just another proof the West is guilty of (insert any favorite crime here) and should atone for them by disfiguring itself and accept any number of those 'refugees'...
G.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
I am sure everybody blames the traffickers. I can't blame the parents as I can see myself acting the same in their situation. Fleeing from Kobane when it is reduced to rubble, trying the legal ways to migrate and when that's a failured to ultimately try the one chance I see all seems reasonable.
It's a fair question to ask whether there should be a legal way for Syrian Kurds to register as refugees even without proper travel documents which may be impossible to get for them.
Quote from: Zanza on September 03, 2015, 10:58:39 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
I am sure everybody blames the traffickers. I can't blame the parents as I can see myself acting the same in their situation. Fleeing from Kobane when it is reduced to rubble, trying the legal ways to migrate and when that's a failured to ultimately try the one chance I see all seems reasonable.
It's a fair question to ask whether there should be a legal way for Syrian Kurds to register as refugees even without proper travel documents which may be impossible to get for them.
You'd risk your child's life to get to a richer country after having already reached safety? I sure hope you don't have any children.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 11:25:56 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 03, 2015, 10:58:39 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
I am sure everybody blames the traffickers. I can't blame the parents as I can see myself acting the same in their situation. Fleeing from Kobane when it is reduced to rubble, trying the legal ways to migrate and when that's a failured to ultimately try the one chance I see all seems reasonable.
It's a fair question to ask whether there should be a legal way for Syrian Kurds to register as refugees even without proper travel documents which may be impossible to get for them.
You'd risk your child's life to get to a richer country after having already reached safety? I sure hope you don't have any children.
You would, after two or three years, stay in an overcrowded refugee camp with no education for your children, limited sanitary and medical accommodation and no indication when you can go back to your old home instead of trying to get somewhere where your kids can grow up and be educated like normal people? I sure hope you don't have any children.
Germany had 1.46 million immigrants and 914.000 emigrants last year, i.e. a net migration of 550.000 persons. I guess we can cope with twice that number this year...
Quote from: Grallon on September 03, 2015, 10:53:54 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
[So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
There's an industry of self flagellation going strong in the West. So no doubt there are some idiots already mouthing that this tragedy is just another proof the West is guilty of (insert any favorite crime here) and should atone for them by disfiguring itself and accept any number of those 'refugees'...
G.
You are a despicable human being. I am glad you will not have children and will die alone.
The EUOT thread about the boy's family is titled, "Irresponsible Syrian father sees own family die"
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/irresponsible-syrian-father-sees-own-family-die.880200/
Quote from: Martinus on September 04, 2015, 02:17:34 AM
Quote from: Grallon on September 03, 2015, 10:53:54 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
[So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
There's an industry of self flagellation going strong in the West. So no doubt there are some idiots already mouthing that this tragedy is just another proof the West is guilty of (insert any favorite crime here) and should atone for them by disfiguring itself and accept any number of those 'refugees'...
G.
You are a despicable human being. I am glad you will not have children and will die alone.
For all our disagreements Marty, I'm glad we agree on this.
Quote from: Syt on September 04, 2015, 02:23:17 AM
The EUOT thread about the boy's family is titled, "Irresponsible Syrian father sees own family die"
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/irresponsible-syrian-father-sees-own-family-die.880200/
We need a smiley like this :headshakingindisbelief:
Had a blast from the past when my old local paper's webpage talked about the old army base in Albersdorf where I did my service now becoming a facility for refugees.
And they added this picture of my old block:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ndr.de%2Fnachrichten%2Fschleswig-holstein%2Falbersdorf138_v-contentgross.jpg&hash=9ea9ba380023a0f9bc5f47701ea68d2eb890045b)
Our room was the one on the right, above the entrance. :) And many a morning roll call in front of it. :bleeding:
Looks like our government will bow to domestic pressure and accept the refugee distribution, after being initially against it. Most major Spanish cities - ruled by the left nowadays - were already outlining plans to accommodate refugees independently of the government.
We're likely to still get allocated a pretty small amount of them though, given our economic woes.
Finally an impartial voice!
http://www.rt.com/news/314318-putin-vladivostok-eu-migrants/
QuoteEU refugee crisis 'absolutely expected' – Putin
Russia has frequently warned of major problems which Europe would face as a result of Western policies in the Middle East and North Africa and jihadist groups terrorizing people, so the current refugee crisis in the EU doesn't come as a surprise, said the President of Russia.
"I think the crisis was absolutely expected," President Vladimir Putin told journalists at the Eastern Economic Forum in Vladivostok.
"We in Russia, and me personally a few years ago, said it straight that pervasive problems would emerge, if our so-called Western partners continue maintaining their flawed ... foreign policy, especially in the regions of the Muslim world, Middle East, North Africa, which they pursue to date," said Putin.
LIVE UPDATES: Worst refugee crisis since WWII
According to the Russian president, the main flaw of Western foreign policy is the imposition of their own standards worldwide without taking into account the historical, religious, national and cultural characteristics of particular regions.
The only way to reverse the refugee flow streaming into Europe is to help people resolve problems at home. And the first step should be by creating a common and united front against jihadist groups such as Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) and fighting them at their core.
"We really want to form some kind of an international coalition, therefore we conduct consultations with our US partners," Putin said, noting that he spoke about it with President Obama.
However it is premature to discuss "direct" Russian involvement in military actions against ISIS, needless to say joining the US-led coalition, as Moscow is currently considering "other options," said Putin.
The issue of rebuilding local economies and social spheres to convince terrified people to move back would only arise after terrorism is rooted out, Russian President said. But international support for rebuilding the statehood of the countries which have suffered at the hand of ISIS should only occur with full respect for history, culture and local traditions.
"But if we act unilaterally and argue about the quasi-democratic principles and procedures for certain areas, that will lead us to an even greater impasse," Putin concluded.
The Russian leader emphasized that he was being critical to figure out "what is happening, and what to do next," rather than to tease or to point out that Western policies were "shortsighted."
Putin noted that the US is not facing a refugee crisis of the same magnitude as the EU, which has been "blindly following American orders."
Prior to Putin's speech, the Russian Foreign Ministry said that the EU could actually learn something from Russia in terms of offering proper living conditions to those fleeing conflict zones.
Reminding Brussels of Russia's experience in dealing with the influx of civilians fleeing Kiev's so-called "anti-terrorist operation" in neighboring Ukraine, the ministry's spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova said that hundreds of thousands of refugees who fled to Russia were provided with "shelter, food and aid."
:lol:
Chaos in Hungary is slowly growing. The German declaration about not kicking any Syrians out is causing a LOT of grief.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.444.hu%2Ff6e90834aeaad1f99cd950e453c58cd3.jpeg&hash=135e5e37af8be74e90197f7c28e4aaeffdbad172)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.444.hu%2F74d55a932065652eb6227b4e79de817b.jpeg&hash=6abe63a95c8e52aeea65944fc3fe8a600541be8d)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.444.hu%2F9af37ce59b995a288a0044b79ed500bd.jpeg&hash=880205ed897eea8dac5cd52e23bd1acd2d5ab909)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.444.hu%2Fbc36b6f5e7f77036d2edb06263558dcf.jpeg&hash=9fe0dea383f369c803a746fc164217f0292a909a)
https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv/status/639751349433958400/photo/1
Quote from: Martinus on September 04, 2015, 02:17:34 AM
You are a despicable human being. I am glad you will not have children and will die alone.
:lol:
Whatever you say.
G.
At one of the camps around 300 people climbed out this morning, were chased by police, most of them escaped.
Rest of camp-dwellers are now hurling stones at the police, who have received reinforcement from the riot police. The camp has app. 2000 refugees.
I know things hadn't been exactly rosy before Germany started being a dick, but I am quite ready to blame this on them. Those poor sobs think they have a free ticket to Germany, and are only blocked by unjust Hungarian tyranny, where as in fact Hungary is only trying to uphold EU law.
While I agree that Hungary (and Italy, Bulgaria, Greece ....) are in a shitty position when it comes to refugees and left to fend for themselves for many years now, it's also disgusting to hear Orban milking the situation for what it's worth and proselytizing about defending Christendom from the Muslim hordes and how Europeans will soon be a minority on the continent.
Tamas, any indication what average Joe Goulash thinks about his rhetoric?
Oh yes he is milking the whole thing to indrouce new police-statish laws, it is very disgusting.
Average Joe opinion: I think everyone is worried. It is a growing influx of alien people (in terms of culture and language) coupled with an apparent impotency of the government in handling them, I cannot really fault the population for being concerned.
And then these concerns are further detailed by political leanings and general empathy: from considering the migrants terrorists in disguise and general human scum to the other end of painting them people who cannot possibly under any circumstance be bad on an individual level. And the middle seeing them as poor desperate people who are going to cause serious issues for us as well in their understandable desperation.
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 09:01:37 AM
Oh yes he is milking the whole thing to indrouce new police-statish laws, it is very disgusting.
Average Joe opinion: I think everyone is worried. It is a growing influx of alien people (in terms of culture and language) coupled with an apparent impotency of the government in handling them, I cannot really fault the population for being concerned.
And then these concerns are further detailed by political leanings and general empathy: from considering the migrants terrorists in disguise and general human scum to the other end of painting them people who cannot possibly under any circumstance be bad on an individual level. And the middle seeing them as poor desperate people who are going to cause serious issues for us as well in their understandable desperation.
I know this is rarely practiced in Eastern Europe, when it comes to international relations, but shouldn't you then be blaming your own country and government and not Germany? :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on September 04, 2015, 09:07:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 09:01:37 AM
Oh yes he is milking the whole thing to indrouce new police-statish laws, it is very disgusting.
Average Joe opinion: I think everyone is worried. It is a growing influx of alien people (in terms of culture and language) coupled with an apparent impotency of the government in handling them, I cannot really fault the population for being concerned.
And then these concerns are further detailed by political leanings and general empathy: from considering the migrants terrorists in disguise and general human scum to the other end of painting them people who cannot possibly under any circumstance be bad on an individual level. And the middle seeing them as poor desperate people who are going to cause serious issues for us as well in their understandable desperation.
I know this is rarely practiced in Eastern Europe, when it comes to international relations, but shouldn't you then be blaming your own country and government and not Germany? :hmm:
I am blaming Germany for the particular situation that has developed in the last couple of days: I am sure you are not aware, but the migrants were remarkably peaceful for months, but after they learned they have a free ticket to stay in Germany, they have become much harder to handle and things are escalating by the hour.
YES in big part because managing cca. 500 uppity migrants is too much for the Hungarian state administration to handle effectively, but you cannot dismiss the correlation between assinine German declarations and the events unfolding.
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 09:10:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 04, 2015, 09:07:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 09:01:37 AM
Oh yes he is milking the whole thing to indrouce new police-statish laws, it is very disgusting.
Average Joe opinion: I think everyone is worried. It is a growing influx of alien people (in terms of culture and language) coupled with an apparent impotency of the government in handling them, I cannot really fault the population for being concerned.
And then these concerns are further detailed by political leanings and general empathy: from considering the migrants terrorists in disguise and general human scum to the other end of painting them people who cannot possibly under any circumstance be bad on an individual level. And the middle seeing them as poor desperate people who are going to cause serious issues for us as well in their understandable desperation.
I know this is rarely practiced in Eastern Europe, when it comes to international relations, but shouldn't you then be blaming your own country and government and not Germany? :hmm:
I am blaming Germany for the particular situation that has developed in the last couple of days: I am sure you are not aware, but the migrants were remarkably peaceful for months, but after they learned they have a free ticket to stay in Germany, they have become much harder to handle and things are escalating by the hour.
YES in big part because managing cca. 500 uppity migrants is too much for the Hungarian state administration to handle effectively, but you cannot dismiss the correlation between assinine German declarations and the events unfolding.
If they have been staying in the camp (rather than processed and allowed to live, take jobs and earn money) *for months* as you say, then it again only points to Hungarian government's incompetence or bad will in handling the situation. I am not surprised the refugees are pissed off. You can't keep people for months in a refugee camp with no firm deadline for when they will be able to go back to normal lives.
speaking of which, to recap a bit of what is happening RIGHT NOW:
Train station at small town of Bicske, close to a refugee camp:
A trainload of migrants have started a hunger strike on a stalled train because they refuse to leave it and go to the camp - they want the train to take them to Germany. The train never meant to leave the borders of Hungary, but whatevs
Latest here is that the genius which is the Hungarian police sent two freight trains on both sides of the strikers' train probably to shut it off from onlookers. As a result a group of migrants are making a run for it from the train, with police giving chase
Bunch of migrants from Budapest's Keleti station marching to Vienna on foot
They are now basically blocking the main motorway between Budapest and the western border
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.444.hu%2F81203915250664f2ab674c1979865aa2.jpeg&hash=0fdc0b131ab10a7e0b996e3d1e4086b01ef17d2e)
Various upheveal at the refugee camp in Roszke
Here the morning started with 300 migrants trying to escape, and others stoning the police.
Since then, there have been more stone throwing, two migrant groups brawling with each other, and tear gassing. Fun times.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.444.hu%2Fd8040985991013b844e23b7601bd4c98.jpeg&hash=3c21dcc176975a752fd0785dc7d152f6b02cb97c)
Quote from: Martinus on September 04, 2015, 09:13:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 09:10:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 04, 2015, 09:07:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 09:01:37 AM
Oh yes he is milking the whole thing to indrouce new police-statish laws, it is very disgusting.
Average Joe opinion: I think everyone is worried. It is a growing influx of alien people (in terms of culture and language) coupled with an apparent impotency of the government in handling them, I cannot really fault the population for being concerned.
And then these concerns are further detailed by political leanings and general empathy: from considering the migrants terrorists in disguise and general human scum to the other end of painting them people who cannot possibly under any circumstance be bad on an individual level. And the middle seeing them as poor desperate people who are going to cause serious issues for us as well in their understandable desperation.
I know this is rarely practiced in Eastern Europe, when it comes to international relations, but shouldn't you then be blaming your own country and government and not Germany? :hmm:
I am blaming Germany for the particular situation that has developed in the last couple of days: I am sure you are not aware, but the migrants were remarkably peaceful for months, but after they learned they have a free ticket to stay in Germany, they have become much harder to handle and things are escalating by the hour.
YES in big part because managing cca. 500 uppity migrants is too much for the Hungarian state administration to handle effectively, but you cannot dismiss the correlation between assinine German declarations and the events unfolding.
If they have been staying in the camp (rather than processed and allowed to live, take jobs and earn money) *for months* as you say, then it again only points to Hungarian government's incompetence or bad will in handling the situation. I am not surprised the refugees are pissed off. You can't keep people for months in a refugee camp with no firm deadline for when they will be able to go back to normal lives.
FFS yes lets nitpick my words: by months I mean the THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE who have been constantly entering Hungary. Yes they have been going through processing and then let to roam free (up until recently they were going wherever they wanted BEFORE processing), but the record of number of people entering the country is being broken almost daily, you ivory towered clueless dimwit.
Bicske train station: most of the striking people (about 300) have started their own march toward Austria on the train tracks (thats going to be a long walk).
Only a handful remained on the train barricading themselves while the police is getting into riot gear
So our former PM, Helle Thorning-Smidth, who competed in a game of "Who can let fewest immigrants into Denmark" and lost (not for lack of trying but winning PM was on home turf being right wing) is now nominated to be high commissioner of the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR).
That'll be fun. :bleeding:
Quote from: Syt on September 04, 2015, 12:45:43 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 11:25:56 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 03, 2015, 10:58:39 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
I am sure everybody blames the traffickers. I can't blame the parents as I can see myself acting the same in their situation. Fleeing from Kobane when it is reduced to rubble, trying the legal ways to migrate and when that's a failured to ultimately try the one chance I see all seems reasonable.
It's a fair question to ask whether there should be a legal way for Syrian Kurds to register as refugees even without proper travel documents which may be impossible to get for them.
You'd risk your child's life to get to a richer country after having already reached safety? I sure hope you don't have any children.
You would, after two or three years, stay in an overcrowded refugee camp with no education for your children, limited sanitary and medical accommodation and no indication when you can go back to your old home instead of trying to get somewhere where your kids can grow up and be educated like normal people? I sure hope you don't have any children.
Agreed. That family was put in an impossible position. Only an idiot would condemn the choice to risk a better life when all other options were exhausted.
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 07:56:07 AM
where as in fact Hungary is only trying to uphold EU law.
but I was just following orders....
Merkel has decided to suspend that "law" why cant the Hungarians allow them to pass through to Germany?
One would think the Hungarians would be eager to get rid of them. This whole shit show is not doing great things for their international image.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 10:28:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 07:56:07 AM
where as in fact Hungary is only trying to uphold EU law.
but I was just following orders....
Merkel has decided to suspend that "law" why cant the Hungarians allow them to pass through to Germany?
No she did not. They do not want Hungary to let them through unregistered.
you can see the mixed feelings of the locals on the march happening on the motorway:
Some cars are stopping to hand the migrants food and water. Some other cars yell at them to get out of the country.
Some cars giving them food and maps to Germany.
To add to the chaos, there is a Hungary-Romania football game tonight in Budapest. Even on a quiet day thats the perfect excuse for far-rights hooligans to trash some of the city. I hope they won't have the idea to assault the migrants at Keleti station.
And the Minister of Interior have gone to his summer holiday. ^_^
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 11:02:46 AM
you can see the mixed feelings of the locals on the march happening on the motorway:
Some cars are stopping to hand the migrants food and water. Some other cars yell at them to get out of the country.
And I am sure the immigrants respond by saying that is exactly what they are trying to do ;)
Quote from: Liep on September 04, 2015, 09:51:44 AM
So our former PM, Helle Thorning-Smidth, who competed in a game of "Who can let fewest immigrants into Denmark" and lost (not for lack of trying but winning PM was on home turf being right wing) is now nominated to be high commissioner of the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR).
That'll be fun. :bleeding:
Oh, the irony. :(
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 04, 2015, 12:45:43 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 11:25:56 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 03, 2015, 10:58:39 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 03, 2015, 07:36:36 PM
So this is Europe's (or Canada's) fault rather than the boy's parents or the smugglers they trusted? :huh:
I am sure everybody blames the traffickers. I can't blame the parents as I can see myself acting the same in their situation. Fleeing from Kobane when it is reduced to rubble, trying the legal ways to migrate and when that's a failured to ultimately try the one chance I see all seems reasonable.
It's a fair question to ask whether there should be a legal way for Syrian Kurds to register as refugees even without proper travel documents which may be impossible to get for them.
You'd risk your child's life to get to a richer country after having already reached safety? I sure hope you don't have any children.
You would, after two or three years, stay in an overcrowded refugee camp with no education for your children, limited sanitary and medical accommodation and no indication when you can go back to your old home instead of trying to get somewhere where your kids can grow up and be educated like normal people? I sure hope you don't have any children.
Agreed. That family was put in an impossible position. Only an idiot would condemn the choice to risk a better life when all other options were exhausted.
Yeah, I don't think this is about moving to a richer country so much as moving to a country that isn't in a civil war.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 04, 2015, 11:54:28 AM
Yeah, I don't think this is about moving to a richer country so much as moving to a country that isn't in a civil war.
So what was the deal with the refugees in Turkey? Did they just keep them locked up in camps or something?
I heard some Egyptian expert saying Turkey was driving all the refugees into Greece and the EU with the intention of trying to destabilize them but that seemed a bit too mustache twirlingly evil.
That they could have just stayed in an earlier country is a fair point.
But.... Put yourself in their shoes- you're already displaced from your country and on the move. You might as well try and make the best you can of a bad situation.
Consider too that they think life in Europe for them will be much better than it actually will be
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2015, 12:01:56 PM
I heard some Egyptian expert saying Turkey was driving all the refugees into Greece and the EU with the intention of trying to destabilize them but that seemed a bit too mustache twirlingly evil.
Well, it's working.
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2015, 12:01:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 04, 2015, 11:54:28 AM
Yeah, I don't think this is about moving to a richer country so much as moving to a country that isn't in a civil war.
So what was the deal with the refugees in Turkey? Did they just keep them locked up in camps or something?
I heard some Egyptian expert saying Turkey was driving all the refugees into Greece and the EU with the intention of trying to destabilize them but that seemed a bit too mustache twirlingly evil.
Some are. None are allowed to really stay. Most are not even there legally and could be sent back to Syria at anytime.
I'd just like to add to the discussion that these Syrians are actual human beings. And that it's pretty much on us that ISIL and Assad's regime can do what they want to.
Quote from: Norgy on September 04, 2015, 03:39:19 PM
I'd just like to add to the discussion that these Syrians are actual human beings. And that it's pretty much on us that ISIL and Assad's regime can do what they want to.
Hey I want them all brought to North America. Taking care of refugees and doing humanitarian intervention should be the main way we interact with these crises IMO. I was just curious what was going on in Turkey.
I am not sure why it is on us what happens in Syria.
Hungarian government has announced: they will be picking up the refugees at the Budapest train station and the ones marching on the motorway, and will transfer them to the austrian border.
Quote from: Tamas on September 04, 2015, 03:45:31 PM
Hungarian government has announced: they will be picking up the refugees at the Budapest train station and the ones marching on the motorway, and will transfer them to the austrian border.
I hope the Austrians are ready to receive them.
Quote from: Norgy on September 04, 2015, 03:39:19 PM
I'd just like to add to the discussion that these Syrians are actual human beings.
True.
QuoteAnd that it's pretty much on us that ISIL and Assad's regime can do what they want to.
No, we agreed, they're human beings, not kittens.
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2015, 12:01:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 04, 2015, 11:54:28 AM
Yeah, I don't think this is about moving to a richer country so much as moving to a country that isn't in a civil war.
So what was the deal with the refugees in Turkey? Did they just keep them locked up in camps or something?
I heard some Egyptian expert saying Turkey was driving all the refugees into Greece and the EU with the intention of trying to destabilize them but that seemed a bit too mustache twirlingly evil.
they are treated as guests with limited rights. Those who make it inside the camps receive food, healthcare and some money. Those outside, the majority, have to fend for themselves.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 04, 2015, 04:04:25 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 04, 2015, 03:39:19 PM
I'd just like to add to the discussion that these Syrians are actual human beings.
True.
QuoteAnd that it's pretty much on us that ISIL and Assad's regime can do what they want to.
No, we agreed, they're human beings, not kittens.
Kittens decided that George Bush should destabilize the region. I hadn't heard that particular conspiracy theory before.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:06:40 PM
Kittens decided that George Bush should destabilize the region. I hadn't heard that particular conspiracy theory before.
While I get that I think Assad did a few things to make his people unhappy on his own.
But in any case Americans there trying to stabilize the region is what destabilized it in the first place, well to the extent it was previously not destabilized.
George Bush had nothing to do with putting or keeping Assad in power, and Saddam was just as bad.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 04, 2015, 04:11:29 PM
George Bush had nothing to do with putting or keeping Assad in power, and Saddam was just as bad.
I think you are missing the whole Gulf War 2 thing when one thinks about the region being destabilized.
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2015, 04:08:03 PM
But in any case Americans there trying to stabilize the region is what destabilized it in the first place, well to the extent it was previously not destabilized.
Wow. Amnesia about just how bad the US messed things up in the region is strong with this board.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:17:38 PM
I think you are missing the whole Gulf War 2 thing when one thinks about the region being destabilized.
I think you are missing the whole history of the region since the fall of the Ottoman Empire thing when one thinks about the region being destabilized.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 04, 2015, 04:20:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:17:38 PM
I think you are missing the whole Gulf War 2 thing when one thinks about the region being destabilized.
I think you are missing the whole history of the region since the fall of the Ottoman Empire thing when one thinks about the region being destabilized.
:lol:
If you want to go that far back then you are forgetting how badly Wilson screwed up the Paris peace talks.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:22:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 04, 2015, 04:20:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:17:38 PM
I think you are missing the whole Gulf War 2 thing when one thinks about the region being destabilized.
I think you are missing the whole history of the region since the fall of the Ottoman Empire thing when one thinks about the region being destabilized.
:lol:
If you want to go that far back then you are forgetting how badly Wilson screwed up the Paris peace talks.
Richard the Lionheart and his EU intervention would have solved everything, but for Saladin. :mad:
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 04, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:22:17 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 04, 2015, 04:20:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:17:38 PM
I think you are missing the whole Gulf War 2 thing when one thinks about the region being destabilized.
I think you are missing the whole history of the region since the fall of the Ottoman Empire thing when one thinks about the region being destabilized.
:lol:
If you want to go that far back then you are forgetting how badly Wilson screwed up the Paris peace talks.
Richard the Lionheart and his EU intervention would have solved everything, but for Saladin. :mad:
Why oh why couldn't the Byzantines just hold things together? Grexit indeed :mad:
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:18:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2015, 04:08:03 PM
But in any case Americans there trying to stabilize the region is what destabilized it in the first place, well to the extent it was previously not destabilized.
Wow. Amnesia about just how bad the US messed things up in the region is strong with this board.
The Iraq war was what brought the majority of us here, what 12 years ago, 13 years ago.
It's also, incidentally, what created this mess.
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to blame Languish.
I have a difficult time seeing how a war that strengthened Iran's power over Iraq resulted in weakening Iran's power over Iraq.
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2015, 12:01:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 04, 2015, 11:54:28 AM
Yeah, I don't think this is about moving to a richer country so much as moving to a country that isn't in a civil war.
So what was the deal with the refugees in Turkey? Did they just keep them locked up in camps or something?
I heard some Egyptian expert saying Turkey was driving all the refugees into Greece and the EU with the intention of trying to destabilize them but that seemed a bit too mustache twirlingly evil.
There is also the point of Turkey not being the safest place for Kurdish refugees. And we know that Middle East does not exactly have a stellar record when it comes to maintaining the safety of refugees in camps, even those managed by supposed democracies.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:18:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 04, 2015, 04:08:03 PM
But in any case Americans there trying to stabilize the region is what destabilized it in the first place, well to the extent it was previously not destabilized.
Wow. Amnesia about just how bad the US messed things up in the region is strong with this board.
Well color me confused. I thought I was just saying we messed things up in the region. Want to parse this for me?
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 04:22:17 PM
:lol:
If you want to go that far back then you are forgetting how badly Wilson screwed up the Paris peace talks.
Well I think I could discuss the sectarian baiting of the decades long tyrannical rule of Abdul-Hamid that resulted in violence between religious groups that had lived side by side for centuries. I could mention the corrupt nationalism of the Young Turks that exasperated nationalist feelings. I could mention the obvious destabilizing impacts of WWI, WWII, European Colonialism, and the creation of Israel (though that process already started under Abdul-Hamid as well).
I am not sure the Middle East would be this great bastion of stability if the US had never gotten involved, it was already pretty fucked. I mean the Soviets were going to go in regardless.
As for Wilson I mean sure he waived the red flag of 'national self-determination' justifying violence by every nationalist douche out there instead of focusing on individual rights, but the US had no power in the Middle East at the time. We had no troops or soft power of any sort, nor the will to deploy them.
But in any case our influence has mostly been disastrous.
Quote from: Norgy on September 04, 2015, 04:50:32 PM
The Iraq war was what brought the majority of us here, what 12 years ago, 13 years ago.
It's also, incidentally, what created this mess.
I think it created ISIL but the powers propping up the Assad regime, as well as its policies, had a pretty key role.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 05:12:39 PM
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to blame Languish.
At least it isn't the jews this time. Progress!
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 05, 2015, 02:50:20 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 04, 2015, 05:12:39 PM
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to blame Languish.
At least it isn't the jews this time. Progress!
Aren't the two almost synonymous? Just look at Malthus and Joan.
Yesterday crisis was resolved by gathering up the marching-protesting people at the different points of the country, about 4500 of them and dumping them at the Austrian border, where Austria, after some deliberation, decided to let them in.
Here is how determined the Hungarian government was regarding the migrants:
Saturday: you can't go. Monday: you can go. Tuesday:no you can't go. And then yesterday.
And they also declared that this dumping of people on Austria was a one time thing due to the critical situation, but it won't happen again.
So I guess the message to the migrants are clear: cooperate with the hungarian authorities, remain calm, and you will rot in a camp for months until your asylum request is denied. Protest, fight, create chaos, and the state itself will help you to Austria.
This will not end well.
And of course today again hundreds are marching on foot on motorways, leaving camps.
And Austria just closed the main border crossing, with 20-30 migrant-filled buses stuck on the Hungarian side :D
Cue Benny Hill soundtrack
When did migrants turn all walking deady and start moving in hordes?
Quote from: Tyr on September 05, 2015, 06:17:33 AM
When did migrants turn all walking deady and start moving in hordes?
Maybe they are indeed zombies and figured out that there are no brains to be had in Hungary..? :hmm:
Quote from: Tyr on September 05, 2015, 06:17:33 AM
When did migrants turn all walking deady and start moving in hordes?
Possibly when they started migrating.
Quote from: Tyr on September 05, 2015, 06:17:33 AM
When did migrants turn all walking deady and start moving in hordes?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRRAxtV4.gif&hash=c7738bb2a93d97b73a5d5cebae3883de1f2b135a) :lol:
The crisis has started to affect me personnaly: had to remove some people on facebook, thei rcomments about the refugees are too ignorant/cruel.
"Remove"? :o
Quote from: barkdreg on September 05, 2015, 04:55:09 PM
The crisis has started to affect me personnaly: had to remove some people on facebook, thei rcomments about the refugees are too ignorant/cruel.
Think of it as a blessing in disguise, a litmus test to show just how caustic their personalities are.
175 refugees arrived in Rødby by ferry from Germany and the right wing is going nuts and shouting about closing the borders. Most likely they'll eventually evade the police and go to Sweden.
Quote from: Liep on September 06, 2015, 01:10:20 PM
Most likely they'll eventually evade the police and go to Sweden.
Mission accomplished. :)
What's in Sweden?
Austria is now, after a weekend of accepting Hungary dumping migrants on their side of the border, talking about how they just helped solve an emergency and things must go back to legal ways.
they pretend they don't know the genie is out of the bottle and non-cooperation has been clearly shown for the migrants as the way to go.
BTW, wanted to link a not so sympathetic video of the protester migrants on the Bicske station train on Friday, while the police wanted to help them out with water. But Facebook has removed it since. And I don't see why: you were seeing a bunch of obviously desperate, aggressive young men picking up the mineral water bottle packages the police officers just put down for them, and throwing at the police etc. while the officers themselves made sure to keep out of their way and make no threatening movement or to respond.
And I don't get this: maybe the rules of having to register refugees in their entrance-country to the EU is wrong. But still, presently that is the law. They are asking for the protection of the EU, and start by totally ignoring its laws? The same laws they know will protect them? I cannot sympathize with that.
Speaking of which, there is this jpg I have seen, in response of the German criticisms for how Hungary is handling migrants:
(https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/t31.0-8/11952734_10153737779297223_9181297636491178005_o.jpg)
"Number of refugee shelters set ablaze. Progressive, civilised Germany - racist fascist Hungary"
It misses the point of course, since in Germany the state at least tries, while in Hungary there is nothing but chaos, but it does have a point: EU countries can hardly point fingers at each other in this thing.
Quote from: Tamas on September 06, 2015, 02:19:37 PM
And I don't get this: maybe the rules of having to register refugees in their entrance-country to the EU is wrong. But still, presently that is the law. They are asking for the protection of the EU, and start by totally ignoring its laws? The same laws they know will protect them? I cannot sympathize with that.
Personally I think that discarding the Rule of Law is a bad idea, especially if you want to protect the weaker members of society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3eSbpETf8
Quote from: barkdreg on September 05, 2015, 04:55:09 PM
The crisis has started to affect me personnaly: had to remove some people on facebook, thei rcomments about the refugees are too ignorant/cruel.
Fortunately, I am not friends with anyone like that.
Read an interesting theory today that blamed the Syria situation on global warming.
This is: the first of the 21st century climate change massed people movements?
Quote from: Tyr on September 06, 2015, 03:09:42 PM
Read an interesting theory today that blamed the Syria situation on global warming.
This is: the first of the 21st century climate change massed people movements?
(https://imgflip.com/readImage?iid=24266667)
Quote from: Tyr on September 06, 2015, 03:09:42 PM
Read an interesting theory today that blamed the Syria situation on global warming.
This is: the first of the 21st century climate change massed people movements?
There was a multi year drought that drove country folk into the cities where they lived in poverty because the state didn't care for them, creating major dissatisfaction.
Quote from: Syt on September 06, 2015, 03:25:08 PM
Quote from: Tyr on September 06, 2015, 03:09:42 PM
Read an interesting theory today that blamed the Syria situation on global warming.
This is: the first of the 21st century climate change massed people movements?
There was a multi year drought that drove country folk into the cities where they lived in poverty because the state didn't care for them, creating major dissatisfaction.
Many major dissent can be traced back to droughts indeed. (case in point, starts of 1848 in eastern europe), but that has been happening way before global warming was a thing
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 06, 2015, 01:29:16 PM
Quote from: Liep on September 06, 2015, 01:10:20 PM
Most likely they'll eventually evade the police and go to Sweden.
Mission accomplished. :)
It seems we have an effective police force (much to the frustration of the right wing) so almost every refugee arriving on boats last night was rounded up not that far north, promptly checked in at a nearby hotel, fed and taken care of by the Red Cross and is now under police supervision until they will be driven to the nearest asylum centre.
One refugee told a reporter: "We paid €3000 to a guy in Turkey to take us through Europe and until Denmark it had been a breeze."
An ad placed in Libyan newspapers detailing the new governments harsh cut to welfare for asylum seekers. They now only get a little less than our students but are still not allowed to work.
I know I couldn't survive on student pay alone, so I pity the refugees that don't make it across to Sweden. :(
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COSDBK6WEAYM3m8.jpg)
There's been a bit of a row between Austria and Hungary regarding the refugees. Hungary rejects claims that they're exacerbating the problem but rather that they're receiving mixed signals between "let them go" and "keep them there," and whether or not they should close their non-EU borders.
15,000 refugees passed through Vienna this weekend. 90 stayed in Austria to apply for asylum, the rest continued on to Germany. There were plenty volunteers at Westbahnhof providing the refugees with food, drink, and medical service.
Meanwhile in Iraq ...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVLrvlNF.png&hash=c2133c9eb38741129a2767e794b2be631e6fd50b)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fje4FJIu.png&hash=00ff971d78e52f302a3adad725157c2c81f4fa12)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FkqvriE1.png&hash=a61aaa97cc4c85330d22454e8bfef093a5b1c24f)
:lol:
So what, all of Iraq will get on the road now?
There have never been so many journalists in Rødby. It's fascinating television in a weird way with Police trying to explain to the refugees in bad English that they cannot go back on the train to Sweden because we have to keep them here according to EU rules.
What's worse though is that the police is blatantly ignoring the no smoking on platforms rule. :angry:
Quote from: Tamas on September 07, 2015, 03:34:59 AM
:lol:
So what, all of Iraq will get on the road now?
It's like watching Camp of the Saints play out IRL. :wacko:
Quote from: Liep on September 07, 2015, 03:59:13 AM
There have never been so many journalists in Rødby. It's fascinating television in a weird way with Police trying to explain to the refugees in bad English that they cannot go back on the train to Sweden because we have to keep them here according to EU rules.
What's worse though is that the police is blatantly ignoring the no smoking on platforms rule. :angry:
As much as despise what has been happening in Hungary, I wonder if Denmark is going to get the same bad international press for trying to hold up EU law, or that is reserved for east euro countries.
Ok so moralise this:
Just recently few hundred migrants, waiting to be transported by buses for registration, wanted to break through the police officers guarding them.
What should be done here? Not letting them move around freely until they are registered and their asylum request being evaluated is what Hungary is supposed to be doing under EU law.
I am thinking maybe Germany should send German police/border officers to administrate registration processes into Germany on the Hungarian-Serbian border, because otherwise there will be just bigger chaos and violence in Hungary.
The migrants do not want to stop and they were shown that resistance and violence are the key to getting into Germany.
Funnel them away as quickly as possible to Mutti. It will be interesting to see if Schengen survives the year.
Danish police is not as persistent as Hungary's and now they've just let the migrants go. Currently they're walking in the shoulder on E47 towards Copenhagen and finally Malmö.
Quote from: Liep on September 07, 2015, 06:29:19 AM
Danish police is not as persistent as Hungary's and now they've just let the migrants go. Currently they're walking in the shoulder on E47 towards Copenhagen and finally Malmö.
Yeah. So Denmark is breaking EU law.
For once I agree with Legbiter. This could be the end of Schengen.
Quote from: Tamas on September 07, 2015, 06:30:50 AM
Quote from: Liep on September 07, 2015, 06:29:19 AM
Danish police is not as persistent as Hungary's and now they've just let the migrants go. Currently they're walking in the shoulder on E47 towards Copenhagen and finally Malmö.
Yeah. So Denmark is breaking EU law.
For once I agree with Legbiter. This could be the end of Schengen.
Okay, so they haven't given up. They decided they couldn't detain the migrants at the hotel and so let them walk towards Copenhagen. But they're closely guarded by police forces and even if they are shouting "Malmö! Malmö!" the plan is to register all of them and send them to asylum camps in Denmark.
Interestingly all the migrants say that the worst part of the journey was crossing the water from Turkey to Greece and then the Danish police. There have been no problems in Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary, Austria or Germany.
:huh:
Quote from: Liep on September 07, 2015, 06:39:56 AM
Interestingly all the migrants say that the worst part of the journey was crossing the water from Turkey to Greece and then the Danish police. There have been no problems in Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary, Austria or Germany.
:huh:
In Hungary they say the worst was Hungary so I guess the worst is wherever people try to have them keep local laws?
Well that's official then. Send them to Mutti.
QuoteChancellor Angela Merkel has said the "breathtaking" flow of migrants into Germany will "occupy and change" the country in the coming years.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34173720 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34173720)
Danish PM has talked to Merkel and agreed to also open the borders for Syrian refugees.
And Finland's PM has offered his summer cottage to Syrian refugees.
The European elite has lost it's mind.
Quote from: Legbiter on September 07, 2015, 08:51:51 AM
And Finland's PM has offered his summer cottage to Syrian refugees.
The European elite has lost it's mind.
In parts yes, but still Merkel's approach IF EARNEST and not a farce like last couple of weeks, is the only viable solution.
I mean, with a migration wave this desperate and big, you have two options: make a proper effort of integrating them so they don't wreck you, or you try to kill them all. I don't mind going with option one.
Quote from: Liep on September 07, 2015, 02:05:56 AM
An ad placed in Libyan newspapers detailing the new governments harsh cut to welfare for asylum seekers.
It was Lebanon.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34173542
Germany has been running similar ads in Kosovo.
Quote from: Tamas on September 07, 2015, 09:24:52 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on September 07, 2015, 08:51:51 AM
And Finland's PM has offered his summer cottage to Syrian refugees.
The European elite has lost it's mind.
In parts yes, but still Merkel's approach IF EARNEST and not a farce like last couple of weeks, is the only viable solution.
I mean, with a migration wave this desperate and big, you have two options: make a proper effort of integrating them so they don't wreck you, or you try to kill them all. I don't mind going with option one.
You could also do the "tough love" approach the Aussies have with regards to stopping the boat people, that is process all asylum claims offshore and automatically deny everyone who tries to bypass the process.
It would be better than Merkel going all Denethor on Europe. :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpPAz0tz98 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpPAz0tz98)
There was a large gathering of people at the central station waiting for the refugee train. They had welcome signs and had made lunch for several hundred people.
Only problem was that the Danish police had held the train back because they wanted to register all the refugees on board. It was 4 hours delayed and the group dispersed. :P
I am going to a "Welcome, Refugees" gathering on Saturday. :bowler:
:lol:
Quote from: Martinus on September 07, 2015, 10:46:44 AM
I am going to a "Welcome, Refugees" gathering on Saturday. :bowler:
All those millions of refugees trying to get to Poland appreciate it Marty.
Quote from: Valmy on September 07, 2015, 10:51:52 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 07, 2015, 10:46:44 AM
I am going to a "Welcome, Refugees" gathering on Saturday. :bowler:
All those millions of refugees trying to get to Poland appreciate it Marty.
:lol:
srsly is there a more out of the way country for the Middle East - Germany road than Poland?
Quote from: Valmy on September 07, 2015, 10:51:52 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 07, 2015, 10:46:44 AM
I am going to a "Welcome, Refugees" gathering on Saturday. :bowler:
All those millions of refugees trying to get to Poland appreciate it Marty.
:P
This is mainly to counter a lot of blatant racism in public discourse lately. Poles are a nasty nation.
Quote from: Tamas on September 07, 2015, 10:57:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 07, 2015, 10:51:52 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 07, 2015, 10:46:44 AM
I am going to a "Welcome, Refugees" gathering on Saturday. :bowler:
All those millions of refugees trying to get to Poland appreciate it Marty.
:lol:
srsly is there a more out of the way country for the Middle East - Germany road than Poland?
New Zealand!
Quote from: Legbiter on September 07, 2015, 10:26:24 AM
You could also do the "tough love" approach the Aussies have with regards to stopping the boat people, that is process all asylum claims offshore and automatically deny everyone who tries to bypass the process.
It would be better than Merkel going all Denethor on Europe. :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpPAz0tz98 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpPAz0tz98)
Australia intercepts border jumpers at sea, so there aren't hordes of media on hand. Also, Indonesians aren't fleeing genocidal wars.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 07, 2015, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 07, 2015, 10:57:47 AM
srsly is there a more out of the way country for the Middle East - Germany road than Poland?
New Zealand!
But they've got Dunharrow, which is set up to handle refugees.
The Alternative für Deutschland, AfD, a party that started as Euro-sceptics and favoring neo-liberal economics and then kept drifting further and further right until their founder left in disgust, has called for an immediate solution of the refugee crisis by:
- re-introducing controls on all German borders
- re-introduce a strict visa regime for the Balkan countries
- deciding all applications within 48 hours with immediate deportation
- all applications without valid personal ID will automatically be rejected
- the right to apply for asylum in Germany is to be canceled effective immediately - you should only be able to apply from abroad; if that's not possible due to war in your home country, you should do so in a neighboring country
- all expenses for asylum seekers should be covered by the EU states that gave them transit
The party most recently polled at 3.5% on federal level (you need 5% to get into parliament).
The personal id one... In theory seems sound but... Kind of cuts things off for people from
3rd world hell holes or who fell afoul of their government.
This refugee and migration crisis is certainly bringing out some unpleasant attitudes to the fore, especially on social media like facebook.
What surprising me is some of the most strident, anti-migration posting seem to come from Brits living in other countries, who you'd think almost by definition are economic migrants themselves. :hmm:
The history nerd in me is waiting for the German decision to take in the migrants to be compared to the decision to take in the huguenots.
Quote from: Liep on September 07, 2015, 10:37:53 AM
There was a large gathering of people at the central station waiting for the refugee train. They had welcome signs and had made lunch for several hundred people.
Only problem was that the Danish police had held the train back because they wanted to register all the refugees on board. It was 4 hours delayed and the group dispersed. :P
This is why trains were all cancelled this morning?
Quote from: alfred russel on September 07, 2015, 01:11:41 PM
The history nerd in me is waiting for the German decision to take in the migrants to be compared to the decision to take in the huguenots.
Oh, a commentator in one paper already did that (German interior minister is named de Maiziere, after all). He also pointed out that there's a lot of Polish names among right wingers in North Rhine Westphalia (a lot of Poles moved to the Ruhr during industrialization looking for work), that the most popular German schlager singer was born in the Soviet Union, and that a former war refugee from Yugoslavia is among the most recognized German authors (not to mention folks like Klose and Podolski).
Quote from: alfred russel on September 07, 2015, 01:11:41 PM
The history nerd in me is waiting for the German decision to take in the migrants to be compared to the decision to take in the huguenots.
maybe in a few generations it will be compared to the taking in of Mohammed by the then-not-yet-Medina-people.
European leaders are a bunch of clowns.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 07, 2015, 02:13:17 PM
European leaders are a bunch of clowns.
not the fun sort however.
anyways: I've heard some people claim that during WW2 refugee-men of fighting age and from allied nations were 'encouraged' to join the army and aid with the liberation of their nations. (Not sure if it's true though). (if true:)Maybe that's something all those young men migrating from safe country to safe country to Germany (after initially, and rightfully, fleeing Syria) could do? That way they help solve this mess meaning all these refugees, that surely want to go home -as proper refugees desire, can return to their homes that much faster. And maybe bring those who have ruined their country to justice. Before the Russians do it (heard someone claim they have a couple thousand people on the ground. All on vacation of course)
Quote from: Syt on September 07, 2015, 12:28:22 PM
The Alternative für Deutschland, AfD, a party that started as Euro-sceptics and favoring neo-liberal economics and then kept drifting further and further right until their founder left in disgust, has called for an immediate solution of the refugee crisis by:
- re-introducing controls on all German borders
- re-introduce a strict visa regime for the Balkan countries
- deciding all applications within 48 hours with immediate deportation
- all applications without valid personal ID will automatically be rejected
- the right to apply for asylum in Germany is to be canceled effective immediately - you should only be able to apply from abroad; if that's not possible due to war in your home country, you should do so in a neighboring country
- all expenses for asylum seekers should be covered by the EU states that gave them transit
The party most recently polled at 3.5% on federal level (you need 5% to get into parliament).
The last bullet point seems to come close to PDH's old idea of taxing foreigners living abroad.
Quote from: mongers on September 07, 2015, 01:10:34 PM
This refugee and migration crisis is certainly bringing out some unpleasant attitudes to the fore, especially on social media like facebook.
What surprising me is some of the most strident, anti-migration posting seem to come from Brits living in other countries, who you'd think almost by definition are economic migrants themselves. :hmm:
No kidding. Poles seem all of sudden to be against the very idea of economy-related migrations...
We get to a point where being reasonable and decent seems almost heroic.
Quote from: Syt on September 07, 2015, 01:22:12 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 07, 2015, 01:11:41 PM
The history nerd in me is waiting for the German decision to take in the migrants to be compared to the decision to take in the huguenots.
Oh, a commentator in one paper already did that (German interior minister is named de Maiziere, after all). He also pointed out that there's a lot of Polish names among right wingers in North Rhine Westphalia (a lot of Poles moved to the Ruhr during industrialization looking for work), that the most popular German schlager singer was born in the Soviet Union, and that a former war refugee from Yugoslavia is among the most recognized German authors (not to mention folks like Klose and Podolski).
Funny you mention that. A lot of anti-immigrant nationalists that seem to crop up on my Facebook (not my friends, but people who post on pages I frequent) seem to have distinctly Ukrainian names.
Quote from: Martinus on September 07, 2015, 03:13:53 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 07, 2015, 01:10:34 PM
This refugee and migration crisis is certainly bringing out some unpleasant attitudes to the fore, especially on social media like facebook.
What surprising me is some of the most strident, anti-migration posting seem to come from Brits living in other countries, who you'd think almost by definition are economic migrants themselves. :hmm:
No kidding. Poles seem all of sudden to be against the very idea of economy-related migrations...
We get to a point where being reasonable and decent seems almost heroic.
Don't worry, eventually such people will get their own camps. :)
The thing is, I'm not a Christian and while I believe in some higher power I don't necessarily believe in the "final judgement" - but even then I wouldn't want to look back at my life at the end of it and say that I turned away people who were dying and needed my help, because I had a whole lot of "rational" excuses and justifications. Even if there is nothing after we die - and I am not sure of that - I don't want to be "that guy". I have been "skeptical" about muslims and their immigration, to say the least, but there are times when just being human trumps any creed or worldview.
People have been dying in droves, but you only care when they show up at your door? A heart as hard as gold.
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2015, 03:51:08 PM
People have been dying in droves, but you only care when they show up at your door? A heart as hard as gold.
When I can help, I want to help. The premise that if you do not (miraculously) cure all the world's ails, you have no right to care about those at your doorstep, is morally bankrupt.
Quote from: Martinus on September 07, 2015, 03:55:08 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 07, 2015, 03:51:08 PM
People have been dying in droves, but you only care when they show up at your door? A heart as hard as gold.
When I can help, I want to help. The premise that if you do not (miraculously) cure all the world's ails, you have no right to care about those at your doorstep, is morally bankrupt.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Danish police can't be all bad. They shut down the highway the refugees were walking on all night and when they stopped to sleep in the cold autumn night they were also helpful.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COXHA0RWIAAnYDf.jpg)
In America, they would have shot this kid in the back and then claimed he was wielding a shotgun.
Focus point of Hungarian happenings the last couple of days has been Roszke at the southern border, which is a processing point.
It has been so overcrowded that people have been told to camp on the fields around it.
Latest report is that the police is just giving up on registration. "Have something to drink, eat, and go on your way" is what apparently they are telling to people.
There are way too few officers to handle this many migrants, while Orban is still obsessing over the fence and wants more manpower on it. the "independent civil organisation" (stuffed with insane tax payer money) of his fans is now recruiting volunteers... to build the fence.
Meanwhile, the system of processing and handling the asylum seekers is nearing collapse. Priorities people, priorities.
Wow, German police is actually holding back a refugee train heading for Denmark instead of just ignoring EU-law like they have the past week.
Meanwhile, the latest thing to go viral here is people hating on an idiot who spat on the refugees from a highway bridge and people sailing refugees to Sweden on private boats. Is Denmark rallying in an effort to appear less racist than we normally do?
I mean.. besides this well placed ad (bottom right) that basically tells refugees to fuck off... :bleeding: :Embarrass: :weep:
(https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11822524_10152990497831205_3342641419429019874_n.jpg?oh=4cd4a87a4eca658fd756ad2aeca172ee&oe=565FBEF1)
Bit of a sample of the life close to the Roszke camp. Crying children, Allahu Akbar, yelling Hungarian police, crowd brawling for space on the bus, you name it, all is here.
http://index.indavideo.hu/video/Roszke_menekultek_menekultvalsag?utm_source=flash&utm_medium=watchoninda&utm_campaign=videoplayer
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2015, 07:24:40 AM
Bit of a sample of the life close to the Roszke camp. Crying children, Allahu Akbar, yelling Hungarian police, crowd brawling for space on the bus, you name it, all is here.
http://index.indavideo.hu/video/Roszke_menekultek_menekultvalsag?utm_source=flash&utm_medium=watchoninda&utm_campaign=videoplayer
Desperate people act desperately. Film at 11.
I am not exactly sure what the purpose of posting such link is.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/this-guy-wrote-the-perfect-anti-emigration-facebook-rant
QuoteEmigration is completely out of control in this country, and I'm sick of it. I'm not staying quiet any more. You can't walk down a street in Jamaica or Hong Kong or India without hearing someone speaking English, and in Canada and Australia we have even introduced our own legal system, decimated local communities and installed our own head of state! DISGUSTING! English has now been imposed as the official language of 57 sovereign countries! FIFTY SEVEN!!! What the hell? Who do we think we are?! And the government is doing nothing: any British person can just pack their bags and go and live anywhere in the world at ANY TIME and nobody in the British government will do anything to stop them. If I wanted to, I could just get on a plane to Germany tomorrow, get a job in their booming economy and live there for the rest of my life! My parents could up and retire to Spain or Portugal at a moment's notice! Why should we have that right? It's political correctness gone mad! (And it's also probably, somehow, part of the war on Christmas, and health and safety and women thinking it's ok to wear comfortable, unsexy clothing.)
The figures speak for themselves:
1,300,000 Britons live in Australia; 761,000 in Spain; 678,000 in the USA; 603,000 in Canada; 291,000 in Ireland (11,200 of whom are drawing unemployment benefit from the Irish state), and even 8,500 in Mexico and 7,100 in Kuwait! We're literally EVERYWHERE! I bet there's at least one branch of Greggs in the Falklands.
We need to close our borders immediately before the situation gets even worse for everyone else. We are sleepwalking into a nightmare where a third of the world will be overrun by the British! AGAIN!
EDIT: To all of you really hench army guys sending me hate mail for writing this: I am gay, and I will furiously pleasure myself to your profile picture. Just so you know.
No kidding. You Brits got to stay at home. The world is tired of your constant need to go abroad and colonize.
Quote from: Martinus on September 08, 2015, 07:31:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2015, 07:24:40 AM
Bit of a sample of the life close to the Roszke camp. Crying children, Allahu Akbar, yelling Hungarian police, crowd brawling for space on the bus, you name it, all is here.
http://index.indavideo.hu/video/Roszke_menekultek_menekultvalsag?utm_source=flash&utm_medium=watchoninda&utm_campaign=videoplayer
Desperate people act desperately. Film at 11.
I am not exactly sure what the purpose of posting such link is.
:huh:
Quote from: Jaron on September 08, 2015, 02:58:12 AM
In America, they would have shot this kid in the back and then claimed he was wielding a shotgun.
:lol: :pinch:
The situation in Rødby is getting out of control. Several hundred refugees are coming in every time a ferry arrives and the police can't handle the amount of stuff happening down there. They have to register all migrants and not let them escape, and they have to keep well-meaning people from smuggling the refugees to Sweden (a tough job as people are starting to throw stones at the police because left-wing).
All the while a ferry from Puttgarden has been circling for hours. Reports say it has 200 refugees on board and the police won't let it dock.
To be honest we should just pull a Merkel and let them through, they all want to go to Sweden any way.
CBS caught the Greeks sabotaging refugee boats on film. Tsk tsk.
Our government provided nigh shelter in Brussels for 500 refugees to stop them for camping in the park next to the asylum seekers registration office. Only 14 took up the offer. The rest stayed camping.
Also govt will only process 250 asylum seekers per day. Now there are daily updates in the newspapers how many there have been processed
No. :weep:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/09/when-it-comes-to-refugees-scandinavia-isnt-quite-the-promised-land/
Refugees keep arriving but luckily an ex-princess has had her 2nd divorce and has left her banker husband so now the tabloids have other things to write about.
I don't see how this proposed quota for refugees is compatible with Schengen :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34193568
Say a refugee is assigned to Poland but wants to move to Germany, what will stop him? Or will the refugees be held in camps encircled by barbed wire and watchtowers?
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 09, 2015, 03:51:56 AM
I don't see how this proposed quota for refugees is compatible with Schengen :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34193568
Say a refugee is assigned to Poland but wants to move to Germany, what will stop him? Or will the refugees be held in camps encircled by barbed wire and watchtowers?
Nothing will stop him, but he wouldn't be able to work, buy/rent housing or receive welfare benefits in Germany if he's not a national citizen of EU, which he presumably won't be for a while. Makes being in Germany not so fun.
Yup, as Liep said Schengen is about lack of border controls only - it does not automatically convey free movement of workers and services on any beneficiary - EU citizens continue to be the only beneficiaries of the system.
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 08, 2015, 07:00:44 PM
CBS caught the Greeks sabotaging refugee boats on film. Tsk tsk.
Beware Greeks bearing gifts. They probably had to take out loans to buy the gifts, so you will probably end up paying for them somehow anyway.
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 03:56:06 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 09, 2015, 03:51:56 AM
I don't see how this proposed quota for refugees is compatible with Schengen :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34193568
Say a refugee is assigned to Poland but wants to move to Germany, what will stop him? Or will the refugees be held in camps encircled by barbed wire and watchtowers?
Nothing will stop him, but he wouldn't be able to work, buy/rent housing or receive welfare benefits in Germany if he's not a national citizen of EU, which he presumably won't be for a while. Makes being in Germany not so fun.
Unless of course he travels to Germany, tears up his papers and claims he just arrived from his country of origin as an asylum seeker.
Maybe we could get an EU-wide fingerprint database of asylum seekers but logistics aside they already do not want to give their fingerprints until they arrive to Germany, so will we force them to give them? What if refuses? Send them back on that account?
That's what we do right now, if they refuse to be registered and give fingerprints to the police we send them back across the border (there already is an EU-wide fingerprint database for asylum seekers).
So they will never be granted asylum anywhere if they continue to refuse this, obviously this will require countries like Germany and Austria to actually make an effort to uphold EU-law.
Of course, when there's 200 people arriving at one time the police is struggling a bit to keep up. But I'm not sure number tagging the refugees with a permanent marker is the way to go. :hmm:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COc3NkkUsAAlffO.png)
it's not like it's a tattoo... now that's permanent (until removed)
What is starting to piss me off is the regularity of hundreds of migrants blocking motorways (in Hungary at least).
I get it: its the shortest route. But marching your family on motorways which are in use? Really?
I sympathise with them not wanting to get stuck in Hungary, but they request the EU to accept them in, and in exchange all they are showing is blatant disregard of EU and local laws, plus lack of concern for what distruption they are causing to the locals.
Then again, the latter is a recent phenomenom. In previous months, all reports by farmers and such living in the southern areas were that the small groups of refugees were very polite and apart from asking for water they made sure to avoid bothering the locals.
I guess any human group big enough for a mob actually becomes one.
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2015, 04:13:42 AM
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 03:56:06 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 09, 2015, 03:51:56 AM
I don't see how this proposed quota for refugees is compatible with Schengen :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34193568
Say a refugee is assigned to Poland but wants to move to Germany, what will stop him? Or will the refugees be held in camps encircled by barbed wire and watchtowers?
Nothing will stop him, but he wouldn't be able to work, buy/rent housing or receive welfare benefits in Germany if he's not a national citizen of EU, which he presumably won't be for a while. Makes being in Germany not so fun.
Unless of course he travels to Germany, tears up his papers and claims he just arrived from his country of origin as an asylum seeker.
Maybe we could get an EU-wide fingerprint database of asylum seekers but logistics aside they already do not want to give their fingerprints until they arrive to Germany, so will we force them to give them? What if refuses? Send them back on that account?
There will be many tearings up of papers till they get what they want.
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2015, 04:52:19 AM
I guess any human group big enough for a mob actually becomes one.
This. It doesn't help either, that a large part of said mob consist of very angry young men who in the last few years were shaped by an atmosphere of violence in their home country.
If the police is ever forced to truly stand up to them in force, things could get ugly very quickly.
Quote from: Malicious Intent on September 09, 2015, 05:40:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2015, 04:52:19 AM
I guess any human group big enough for a mob actually becomes one.
This. It doesn't help either, that a large part of said mob consist of very angry young men who in the last few years were shaped by an atmosphere of violence in their home country.
If the police is ever forced to truly stand up to them in force, things could get ugly very quickly.
which is why these young men should be liberating Syria instead
Well, we can try and see the next couple of weeks.
The special border zone on the Serbian border in Hungary will be set up.
There are various legal trickery but the short (and not really denied) point of it is this:
-in legal terms that zone will be like an airport: not part of the country, so migrants there will not be on EU soil, legally speaking.
-their registration and asylum request evaluation will be done in these zones in 2-3 days per case tops
-refusal of a request is pretty much guaranteed as I am reading it
-if they enter "Hungary proper" from these zones, its automatic deportation
-the government acknowledges that this will almost certainly trigger attemps by masses of migrants to break out and make a run for it toward Austria.
Thats why the army will be sent there. They will accompany police officers. Firearms will be equipped but not used. But the government does expect a number of viloent incidents to subdue breakout attempts.
The zones will be established on the 15th. The Parliament will vote on the constitution/law change letting the soldiers work there on the 21st. After that, all bets are off.
All this just tells me Europe is not ready for the coming zombie apocalypse. :(
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COZ1VkuWcAE4OgY.jpg)
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 09, 2015, 05:56:46 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on September 09, 2015, 05:40:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2015, 04:52:19 AM
I guess any human group big enough for a mob actually becomes one.
This. It doesn't help either, that a large part of said mob consist of very angry young men who in the last few years were shaped by an atmosphere of violence in their home country.
If the police is ever forced to truly stand up to them in force, things could get ugly very quickly.
which is why these young men should be liberating Syria instead
I'm all for that, but with whom and with what?
And also, what about their families? Would you go to war knowing your family, wife, children, parents, brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces would be tortured, executed, sold into slavery, bombed because there's no one to protect them? You would probably first make sure they are safe, then maybe try to join another army, if you have the capacity to fight (right age, right shape, physical fitness, etc, etc).
While I recognize the short term challenges posed by massive immigration, it is unfair to say they should just stay fight in their country. Would you fight with Al-Nusra against Bashar Al Assad? Or would you fight with Assad against ISIS while committing atrocities against civilians? It's not like there's a coherent, organized force of pro-democracy rebels just waiting for you. Even if you could join with the Kurds (do they even accept non Kurds in their fighting force?), you'd have to cross ennemy lines. With no training and no weapon, how would that go? I don't think I'm a coward, but in the position of most of these people, I would react just as they do: seek refuge elsewhere.
Quote from: Syt on September 09, 2015, 09:23:05 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COZ1VkuWcAE4OgY.jpg)
very true :lol:
The immigrants are certainly winning the battle on the cute kids front.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 09, 2015, 05:56:46 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on September 09, 2015, 05:40:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2015, 04:52:19 AM
I guess any human group big enough for a mob actually becomes one.
This. It doesn't help either, that a large part of said mob consist of very angry young men who in the last few years were shaped by an atmosphere of violence in their home country.
If the police is ever forced to truly stand up to them in force, things could get ugly very quickly.
which is why these young men should be liberating Syria instead
Expecting heroic behaviour as a standard from ordinary people is never a good premise for a strategy that is either efficient or ethical. Usually it just masks prejudice against the given group.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 09, 2015, 09:47:08 AM
The immigrants are certainly winning the battle on the cute kids front.
I agree. Some of the guys in their early 20s were dreamy. :blush:
Police has shut down all train and ferry traffic coming from Germany. Maybe the refugees will finally realise there's a ferry going directly to Sweden from Rostock.
Why are they going to Sweden anyway?
Surely Germany is a better option these days? :huh:
Quote from: viper37 on September 09, 2015, 09:37:05 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 09, 2015, 05:56:46 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on September 09, 2015, 05:40:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2015, 04:52:19 AM
I guess any human group big enough for a mob actually becomes one.
This. It doesn't help either, that a large part of said mob consist of very angry young men who in the last few years were shaped by an atmosphere of violence in their home country.
If the police is ever forced to truly stand up to them in force, things could get ugly very quickly.
which is why these young men should be liberating Syria instead
I'm all for that, but with whom and with what?
And also, what about their families? Would you go to war knowing your family, wife, children, parents, brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces would be tortured, executed, sold into slavery, bombed because there's no one to protect them? You would probably first make sure they are safe, then maybe try to join another army, if you have the capacity to fight (right age, right shape, physical fitness, etc, etc).
While I recognize the short term challenges posed by massive immigration, it is unfair to say they should just stay fight in their country. Would you fight with Al-Nusra against Bashar Al Assad? Or would you fight with Assad against ISIS while committing atrocities against civilians? It's not like there's a coherent, organized force of pro-democracy rebels just waiting for you. Even if you could join with the Kurds (do they even accept non Kurds in their fighting force?), you'd have to cross ennemy lines. With no training and no weapon, how would that go? I don't think I'm a coward, but in the position of most of these people, I would react just as they do: seek refuge elsewhere.
you're assuming that the family isn't already in Turkey or Lebanon.
And you're also assuming we'd send them back untrained. Might as well shoot them ourselves (though if migrants keep coming and coming and coming it might very well devolve into that). No, we collect them and train them, then send them back. With sufficient air and sea-cover (and whatever else needed) to end this farce so they can go home. But the situation as is going on now is going to lead to tears. And while they're at it they can clean out the Eurocracy too.
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 09, 2015, 05:56:46 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on September 09, 2015, 05:40:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2015, 04:52:19 AM
I guess any human group big enough for a mob actually becomes one.
This. It doesn't help either, that a large part of said mob consist of very angry young men who in the last few years were shaped by an atmosphere of violence in their home country.
If the police is ever forced to truly stand up to them in force, things could get ugly very quickly.
which is why these young men should be liberating Syria instead
Expecting heroic behaviour as a standard from ordinary people is never a good premise for a strategy that is either efficient or ethical. Usually it just masks prejudice against the given group.
I expect refugees -for that is what they claim to be- to go back when the situation is rectified. Getting these hordes of seemingly single young men trained, armed and shipped of to (help) liberate their own country (with help from the west) can only expedite that. Their women and children can in the mean-time stay safe. Europe does not have the duty -moral, ethical or otherwise- to accomodate a mass immigration from wherever.
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 11:07:46 AM
Police has shut down all train and ferry traffic coming from Germany. Maybe the refugees will finally realise there's a ferry going directly to Sweden from Rostock.
Besides closing the border without knowledge of the Danish government the police will now also send a train with refugees from Rødby to Malmø, this also without knowledge of the government and moments after the migration minister said that Sweden refused to accept refugees travelling from Denmark.
Next step: a coup?
they're more effective than in 1940 :P
Quote from: Archy on September 09, 2015, 03:31:32 PM
they're more effective than in 1940 :P
The Sweden-train is effective in clearing Danish problems, but it's giving up on the situation as told by this photo of refugees boarding the "Train of Hope":
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fekstrabladet.dk%2Fincoming%2Farticle5724992.ece%2FIMAGE_ALTERNATES%2Fp600%2FR%25C3%25B8dby%2520politi.jpg&hash=f33e7b9a536402fe27394d400a866bde1e021dd7)
Latest development is that the police overestimated its powers and the Train of Hope is cancelled.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34203366
The police have moved away and they're letting private citizens drive refugees to Sweden. Complete and utter breakdown of the authorities here.
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 02:44:42 PM
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 11:07:46 AM
Police has shut down all train and ferry traffic coming from Germany. Maybe the refugees will finally realise there's a ferry going directly to Sweden from Rostock.
Besides closing the border without knowledge of the Danish government the police will now also send a train with refugees from Rødby to Malmø, this also without knowledge of the government and moments after the migration minister said that Sweden refused to accept refugees travelling from Denmark.
They informed you, but not the government?
Quote from: dps on September 09, 2015, 04:17:06 PM
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 02:44:42 PM
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 11:07:46 AM
Police has shut down all train and ferry traffic coming from Germany. Maybe the refugees will finally realise there's a ferry going directly to Sweden from Rostock.
Besides closing the border without knowledge of the Danish government the police will now also send a train with refugees from Rødby to Malmø, this also without knowledge of the government and moments after the migration minister said that Sweden refused to accept refugees travelling from Denmark.
They informed you, but not the government?
They informed the public before the government is what I clearly meant.
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 02:44:42 PM
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 11:07:46 AM
Police has shut down all train and ferry traffic coming from Germany. Maybe the refugees will finally realise there's a ferry going directly to Sweden from Rostock.
Besides closing the border without knowledge of the Danish government the police will now also send a train with refugees from Rødby to Malmø, this also without knowledge of the government and moments after the migration minister said that Sweden refused to accept refugees travelling from Denmark.
Next step: a coup?
Sounds pretty much like a repeat of what happened in Hungary last week, and after which, might I add, the country was blamed as inhumane and uncivilised.
What is scary though, that a few hundred migrants disabling Hungary is not THAT surprising. Achieving the same with Denmark, that's cause for more concern.
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 03:55:50 PM
Latest development is that the police overestimated its powers and the Train of Hope is cancelled.
Well thats what happens when authority meets desperate resisting civilians: you either violently crush them with all the implications of beating up entire families, or you fold. Not much difference from when a civil unrest happens in a country. Except that in this case the authorities fold to a band of illegal immigrants (refugees legally not permitted to roam freely in the country, for Marty)
I'm confident that anarchy is the proper way forward. :)
I'm amused the Tamas libertarian tendencies go right out the window when it comes to thousands of Muslims coming into his country. :lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2015, 04:55:44 PM
I'm amused the Tamas libertarian tendencies go right out the window when it comes to thousands of Muslims coming into his country. :lol:
I am amused how socialists comfort themselves by thinking liberalism equals anarchism.
That's great, but I don't see how that's relevant. I'm not a socialist and I've never confused liberalism with anarchism. I've always maintained that libertarians are okay with state violence and even tyranny if it benefits them or if it falls one someone that they don't care about. I am merely amused that the paeans to liberty are merely camouflage for the for the simple ideology of "I got mine, fuck the rest of you".
Quote from: The Brain on September 09, 2015, 04:43:22 PM
I'm confident that anarchy is the proper way forward. :)
As long as it's in Europe.
Quote from: Liep on September 09, 2015, 04:28:50 AM
Of course, when there's 200 people arriving at one time the police is struggling a bit to keep up. But I'm not sure number tagging the refugees with a permanent marker is the way to go. :hmm:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COc3NkkUsAAlffO.png)
Eh, it's merely for cataloging purposes. :huh:
Brain is an Anti-Christ.
QuoteEurope does not have the duty -moral, ethical or otherwise- to accomodate a mass immigration from wherever.
Of course you all don't. Why would anyone think that of Europe.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/09/09/hungarian-photographer-trips-refugees.cnn
Europe needs to get its act together.
What ever happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" ? How ideals have lowered.
Quote from: Jaron on September 09, 2015, 06:56:35 PM
What ever happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" ? How ideals have lowered.
We ran out of land to take from the Indians.
They need to update the Statue of Liberty with a new inscription: "I will trip and kick a bitch."
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2015, 06:59:29 PM
Quote from: Jaron on September 09, 2015, 06:56:35 PM
What ever happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" ? How ideals have lowered.
We ran out of land to take from the Indians.
Russia has a lot of wild county in Siberia. Park them there and set up "communities".
We can start with 'Black Lives Matter' !
Quote from: Jaron on September 09, 2015, 07:13:18 PM
We can start with 'Black Lives Matter' !
Hate speech.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 09, 2015, 01:41:08 PM
you're assuming that the family isn't already in Turkey or Lebanon.
And you're also assuming we'd send them back untrained. Might as well shoot them ourselves (though if migrants keep coming and coming and coming it might very well devolve into that). No, we collect them and train them, then send them back. With sufficient air and sea-cover (and whatever else needed) to end this farce so they can go home. But the situation as is going on now is going to lead to tears. And while they're at it they can clean out the Eurocracy too.
Europe has done its best to avoid any fighting over there. France has surprised me by saying they would send fighting soldiers there.
But even if you say you train them, it takes resources to lodge people and train them to be an army. And you need to accomodate the non fighters too. Or let them be slaughtered in your Syria/Iraq.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 09, 2015, 01:47:12 PM
I expect refugees -for that is what they claim to be- to go back when the situation is rectified. Getting these hordes of seemingly single young men trained, armed and shipped of to (help) liberate their own country (with help from the west) can only expedite that. Their women and children can in the mean-time stay safe. Europe does not have the duty -moral, ethical or otherwise- to accomodate a mass immigration from wherever.
Training and arming people can be quite expensive. The bigger problem however is how do you ensure they behave the way you expect them to be. Say you unleash several brigades of these trained, armed young people back in Syria. What stops them from immediately switching sides to join ISIS? The human instinct is to survive, and if joining ISIS offers the best chance at survival, this is what will happen. How do you stop thousands of trained and armed people from doing whatever they want to do?
Quote from: Monoriu on September 09, 2015, 07:54:49 PM
How do you stop thousands of trained and armed people from doing whatever they want to do?
You keep their families as hostage and you expel them back to Syria the moment you learn about them switching sides.
I am reading this book now.
http://smile.amazon.com/Invasion-Europe-Barbarians-J-Bury/dp/0393003884/
"The classic study of the Roman Empire's gradual collapse in the face of barbarian migrations. The barbarians were a scattered assortment of peoples, from the migratory Huns of Central Asia to the Franks of Gaul to the Goths and Vandals of the Germanic forest. Rather than regarding Rome as a foe, many barbarians viewed the Empire as a great institution, one in which their people had a natural place."
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F51biSJdVjuL._SY344_BO1%2C204%2C203%2C200_.jpg&hash=b6ca2264f9b80f18c221db26b9daf550c5e58327)
Quote from: viper37 on September 09, 2015, 08:00:15 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on September 09, 2015, 07:54:49 PM
How do you stop thousands of trained and armed people from doing whatever they want to do?
You keep their families as hostage and you expel them back to Syria the moment you learn about them switching sides.
I have a hard time seeing EU governments actually harming the "hostages", especially women and children. That's a bluff that everybody can see through. There'll be immense political consequences for those governments that actually carry out these threats.
And not everybody has family.
Refugees have cleared the highways and things are back to normal.
I like this picture from yesterday:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COir3C5UAAA00Nr.jpg)
Man, there must be zero Syrian kids who are not cute.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 10, 2015, 01:09:40 PM
Man, there must be zero Syrian kids who are not cute.
Who wouldn't want such adorable children in your European country?
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2015, 01:11:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 10, 2015, 01:09:40 PM
Man, there must be zero Syrian kids who are not cute.
Who wouldn't want such adorable children in your European country?
Statements along these lines in a puppy store are how guys get stuck with a bunch of old dogs tying them down. :P
I saw a headline that we are going to accept 10,000 refugees or something like that. We should offer to accept 200,000 or some other giant number, just because we are a big country and can absorb them easily and we can feel superior to the europeans.
Quote from: alfred russel on September 10, 2015, 04:57:11 PM
I saw a headline that we are going to accept 10,000 refugees or something like that. We should offer to accept 200,000 or some other giant number, just because we are a big country and can absorb them easily and we can feel superior to the europeans.
It's bad politics. Would turn the immigration debate away from Mexicans to Muslims.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 09, 2015, 08:02:31 PM
I am reading this book now.
http://smile.amazon.com/Invasion-Europe-Barbarians-J-Bury/dp/0393003884/
"The classic study of the Roman Empire's gradual collapse in the face of barbarian migrations. The barbarians were a scattered assortment of peoples, from the migratory Huns of Central Asia to the Franks of Gaul to the Goths and Vandals of the Germanic forest. Rather than regarding Rome as a foe, many barbarians viewed the Empire as a great institution, one in which their people had a natural place."
Peter Heather's book on the same subject is definitely worth reading.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 10, 2015, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 10, 2015, 04:57:11 PM
I saw a headline that we are going to accept 10,000 refugees or something like that. We should offer to accept 200,000 or some other giant number, just because we are a big country and can absorb them easily and we can feel superior to the europeans.
It's bad politics. Would turn the immigration debate away from Mexicans to Muslims.
I doubt it, even trump was not against it. Especially if put in terms of the christian genocide.
Quote from: Habbaku on September 10, 2015, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 09, 2015, 08:02:31 PM
I am reading this book now.
http://smile.amazon.com/Invasion-Europe-Barbarians-J-Bury/dp/0393003884/
"The classic study of the Roman Empire's gradual collapse in the face of barbarian migrations. The barbarians were a scattered assortment of peoples, from the migratory Huns of Central Asia to the Franks of Gaul to the Goths and Vandals of the Germanic forest. Rather than regarding Rome as a foe, many barbarians viewed the Empire as a great institution, one in which their people had a natural place."
Peter Heather's book on the same subject is definitely worth reading.
Which one? I seem to recall he's written several on the same subject. :D
Quote from: Phillip V on September 09, 2015, 08:02:31 PM
I am reading this book now.
http://smile.amazon.com/Invasion-Europe-Barbarians-J-Bury/dp/0393003884/
"The classic study of the Roman Empire's gradual collapse in the face of barbarian migrations. The barbarians were a scattered assortment of peoples, from the migratory Huns of Central Asia to the Franks of Gaul to the Goths and Vandals of the Germanic forest. Rather than regarding Rome as a foe, many barbarians viewed the Empire as a great institution, one in which their people had a natural place."
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F51biSJdVjuL._SY344_BO1%2C204%2C203%2C200_.jpg&hash=b6ca2264f9b80f18c221db26b9daf550c5e58327)
Also, the Barbarians too came to the Empire as war refugees, and were let in under the gaze of the legions due to humanitarian considerations and with arguments of assimilation.
Sounds familiar?
http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=morris&book=roman&story=goths In the year 375 A.D. there existed a great Gothic kingdom in the north, extending from the Baltic to [326] the Black Sea, under the rule of an able monarch named Hermanric, who had conquered and combined numerous tribes into a single nation. On this nation, just as assassination removed the Gothic conqueror, descended a vast and frightful horde from northern Asia, the mighty invasion of the Huns, which was to shake to its heart the empire of Rome.
The Ostrogoths (Eastern Goths) were conquered by this savage horde. The Visigoths (Western Goths), stricken with mortal fear, hurried to the Danube and implored the Romans to save them from annihilation. For many miles along the banks of the river extended the panic-stricken multitude, with outstretched arms and pathetic lamentations, praying for permission to cross. If settled on the waste lands of Thrace they would pledge themselves to be faithful subjects of Rome, to obey its laws and guard its limits.
Sympathy and pity counseled the emperor to grant the request. Political considerations bade him refuse. To admit such a host of warlike barbarians to the empire was full of danger. Finally they were permitted to cross, under two stringent conditions: they must deliver up their arms, and they must yield their children, who were to be taken to Asia, educated, and held as hostages. Such was the first fatal step in the overthrow of Rome.
The task of crossing was a difficult one. The Danube there was more than a mile wide, and had been swollen with rains. A large fleet of boats and vessels was provided, but it took many days and nights to transport the mighty host, and numbers [327] of them were swept away and drowned by the rapid current. Probably the whole multitude numbered nearly a million, of whom two hundred thousand were warriors. Guess that the main difference is that, while most barbarians were indeed women and children, the majority of migrants now coming to Europe are actually young adult men - the media just focuses on the very few children to arise pity, as showing the real influx - a huge mass of able-bodied men who left their families behind - would probably not spark the same feelings of pity amongs the populations of Europe (and what kind of men just abandons his family if he is indeed a refugee?)
This is the data from the UNHCR:
http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.171704992.1447245490.1441933645 (http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.171704992.1447245490.1441933645)
72% are adult men, 13% women and only 15% are children. You'd never tell by seeing the photos the press feeds you.
Quote from: alfred Russel
I saw a headline that we are going to accept 10,000 refugees or something like that. We should offer to accept 200,000 or some other giant number, just because we are a big country and can absorb them easily and we can feel superior to the europeans.
Wow, Mr. Generous.
200,000? Really?
Germany is 28 times smaller than the US and has one quarter of the population of America, yet is expecting four times that 'giant number' of yours. This year.
To be on the same level, you should be offering shelter to 3.2 million in 2015, and expecting far greater numbers in the coming years.
That said, there seems to be an idea that there will be this number of migrants arriving and that's it. Wonder where people get that idea? Merkel and Holland have already warned this is a long-term problem. The numbers advanced are for this year alone. There will be many, many, many more arriving in the following years, and in growing numbers.
Over here, there is some disgust at the fact that the government indends to give the 'refugees' top housing for free - the likes of which the average citizen cannot even dream of. And the fact that the Church is doing its best to lodge the intended newly arrivals is not exactly nice, given that it did not show the same solidarity when many thousands of local families lost their homes, in the wake of the economic crisis.
That said, that will be quite a minor issue - regardless of what people want, these migrants want to go to lands where the welfare is great, so most will move to Germany, Sweden or other northern european place within a month, like it happened with the Kosovars during the 1999 crisis (we welcomed 2,000 refugees, just to find out that 30 days later only 5 of them remained here: the police tried to track the the rest, finding some 700, who had moved to Germany or Scandinavia; Seems they weren't interested at all in a 'safe place to live', just live from handouts in rich countries, something we are not wealthy enough to do).
Which is why the idea of 'European sharing of the burden' is a fallacy - no mater how they are split amongst the EU member-states, basically ALL of them will go to Germany and Northern Europe regardless.
And the media will brand any attempt to keep them in the other EU countries as oppressive racism.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 10, 2015, 08:20:32 PM
Wow, Mr. Generous.
200,000? Really?
Germany is 28 times smaller than the US and has one quarter of the population of America, yet is expecting four times that 'giant number' of yours. This year.
To be on the same level, you should be offering shelter to 3.2 million in 2015, and expecting far greater numbers in the coming years.
Perhaps you are under the mistaken impression that these Syrians are the only migrants in the world.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 10, 2015, 08:29:40 PM
Perhaps you are under the mistaken impression that these Syrians are the only migrants in the world.
Mr. Yi, I am afraid you have your facts very twisted.
Firstly, Syrians are hardly the only population on the move - as you can see in the UNHCR site, official statistics say they are just half of the migrants arriving in Europe (and this does not say how many of these 'Syrians' are truly Syrian; our tv crews caught many people destroying their papers in the Serb forests (the names of other countries were clearly seen in the papers) and then say they are 'Syrians', so they can claim asylum.
Second, you seem to be under the impression the US is somehow anywhere near Germany when it comes to taking in refugees. That is very far from being the case.
Let's see the UN data before the crisis, with numbers from the end of 2012:
http://www.unhcr.org/51c071816.html (http://www.unhcr.org/51c071816.html)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unhcr.org%2Fthumb1%2F51c013e16.jpg&hash=c682c3ac37fcf6274e5381bbab2bb2cad2462861)
The US doesn't even show up on the graph.
(to be on the same level as Germany in 2012, the US would have to have an additional 2.3 million refugees enter its borders)
The Syria crisis turned Turkey into the major refugee-hosting nation (with an extra 1.59 million refugees), but the very large America just said it will take some 10,000.
Awesome.
10k is too many
Quote from: Habbaku on September 10, 2015, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 09, 2015, 08:02:31 PM
I am reading this book now.
http://smile.amazon.com/Invasion-Europe-Barbarians-J-Bury/dp/0393003884/
"The classic study of the Roman Empire's gradual collapse in the face of barbarian migrations. The barbarians were a scattered assortment of peoples, from the migratory Huns of Central Asia to the Franks of Gaul to the Goths and Vandals of the Germanic forest. Rather than regarding Rome as a foe, many barbarians viewed the Empire as a great institution, one in which their people had a natural place."
Peter Heather's book on the same subject is definitely worth reading.
I've just finished reading Peter Heather's book on the fall of the Roman Empire. It has a lurid cover so I nearly didn't buy it, an excellent read though with some interesting ideas, recommended.
Quote from: alfred russel on September 10, 2015, 05:45:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 10, 2015, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 10, 2015, 04:57:11 PM
I saw a headline that we are going to accept 10,000 refugees or something like that. We should offer to accept 200,000 or some other giant number, just because we are a big country and can absorb them easily and we can feel superior to the europeans.
It's bad politics. Would turn the immigration debate away from Mexicans to Muslims.
I doubt it, even trump was not against it. Especially if put in terms of the christian genocide.
If only Mexicans were Christian...
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 12:10:49 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 10, 2015, 05:45:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 10, 2015, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 10, 2015, 04:57:11 PM
I saw a headline that we are going to accept 10,000 refugees or something like that. We should offer to accept 200,000 or some other giant number, just because we are a big country and can absorb them easily and we can feel superior to the europeans.
It's bad politics. Would turn the immigration debate away from Mexicans to Muslims.
I doubt it, even trump was not against it. Especially if put in terms of the christian genocide.
If only Mexicans were Christian...
They've been led astray by Santa Muerte.
I don't think the barbarian migrations during the final period of Roman empire offer any useful insights into the current crisis, if that's what is implied. The socio-political situation of classical Rome was completely different from that of modern West, so any analogies are bound to be grossly inaccurate.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 10, 2015, 11:35:17 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 10, 2015, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 09, 2015, 08:02:31 PM
I am reading this book now.
http://smile.amazon.com/Invasion-Europe-Barbarians-J-Bury/dp/0393003884/
"The classic study of the Roman Empire's gradual collapse in the face of barbarian migrations. The barbarians were a scattered assortment of peoples, from the migratory Huns of Central Asia to the Franks of Gaul to the Goths and Vandals of the Germanic forest. Rather than regarding Rome as a foe, many barbarians viewed the Empire as a great institution, one in which their people had a natural place."
Peter Heather's book on the same subject is definitely worth reading.
I've just finished reading Peter Heather's book on the fall of the Roman Empire. It has a lurid cover so I nearly didn't buy it, an excellent read though with some interesting ideas, recommended.
His "Empires and Barbarians" is also well worth reading.
@Agelastus - its on my list, I may also look at some of his other work when time permits.
Just read an interview with a Hungarian aid worker - she said that volunteers helping the refugees are being regularly attacked verbally and, sometimes, physically by members of the Hungarian public, while the police does nothing. It reminds me a lot of the attacks on Poles who were helping Jews during WW2 (the difference being that Hungarians are not under a foreign occupation, of course). This is quite shameful that Eastern European nations do not seem to have risen out of their virulent antisemitism and xenophobia - only now the refugees are the targets.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 11, 2015, 01:34:57 AM
@Agelastus - its on my list, I may also look at some of his other work when time permits.
Be prepared for a touch of redundancy.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 11, 2015, 02:21:20 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 11, 2015, 01:34:57 AM
@Agelastus - its on my list, I may also look at some of his other work when time permits.
Be prepared for a touch of redundancy.
It's more obvious/grating in his "Restoration of Rome" than in "Empires", but then that book feels weaker in other ways as well. There are interesting sections but in general I wouldn't recommend it.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 10, 2015, 08:20:32 PM
This is the data from the UNHCR:
http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.171704992.1447245490.1441933645 (http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.171704992.1447245490.1441933645)
72% are adult men, 13% women and only 15% are children. You'd never tell by seeing the photos the press feeds you.
Quote from: alfred Russel
I saw a headline that we are going to accept 10,000 refugees or something like that. We should offer to accept 200,000 or some other giant number, just because we are a big country and can absorb them easily and we can feel superior to the europeans.
Wow, Mr. Generous.
200,000? Really?
Germany is 28 times smaller than the US and has one quarter of the population of America, yet is expecting four times that 'giant number' of yours. This year.
To be on the same level, you should be offering shelter to 3.2 million in 2015, and expecting far greater numbers in the coming years.
That said, there seems to be an idea that there will be this number of migrants arriving and that's it. Wonder where people get that idea? Merkel and Holland have already warned this is a long-term problem. The numbers advanced are for this year alone. There will be many, many, many more arriving in the following years, and in growing numbers.
Over here, there is some disgust at the fact that the government intends to give the 'refugees' top housing for free - the likes of which the average citizen cannot even dream of. And the fact that the Church is doing its best to lodge the intended newly arrivals is not exactly nice, given that it did not show the same solidarity when many thousands of local families lost their homes, in the wake of the economic crisis.
That said, that will be quite a minor issue - regardless of what people want, these migrants want to go to lands where the welfare is great, so most will move to Germany, Sweden or other northern european place within a month, like it happened with the Kosovars during the 1999 crisis (we welcomed 2,000 refugees, just to find out that 30 days later only 5 of them remained here: the police tried to track the the rest, finding some 700, who had moved to Germany or Scandinavia; Seems they weren't interested at all in a 'safe place to live', just live from handouts in rich countries, something we are not wealthy enough to do).
Which is why the idea of 'European sharing of the burden' is a fallacy - no mater how they are split amongst the EU member-states, basically ALL of them will go to Germany and Northern Europe regardless.
And the media will brand any attempt to keep them in the other EU countries as oppressive racism.
I am afraid I'll have to agree with Martim on this one.
That's what many people in Portugal and abroad do not understand, the centre-right and right in Portugal are not very conservative or right-wing. As for the alternative, the centre-left, likely to win the elections in October, and other assorted lefty parties, they even want more, while only the worst of the crisis is over, the crisis itself being far from over.
Quote from: Agelastus on September 11, 2015, 02:33:17 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 11, 2015, 02:21:20 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 11, 2015, 01:34:57 AM
@Agelastus - its on my list, I may also look at some of his other work when time permits.
Be prepared for a touch of redundancy.
It's more obvious/grating in his "Restoration of Rome" than in "Empires", but then that book feels weaker in other ways as well. There are interesting sections but in general I wouldn't recommend it.
I found him easy to skim when he got a bit verbose, don't think I missed anything of major import, his principal ideas are in open view.
Looks like part of an Austrian motorway has had to be closed due to a few hundred migrants getting bored of waiting for buses and starting to march.
Also conditions at Austrian refugee centers are starting to deteriorate as more people are coming in.
Well, well, well.
Two things: however disgusting the Hungarian government is, maybe the outrcy last week by Europe was a bit overdone, considering how the other EU members who faced a number of migrants walking around (Denmark and Austria) seem to be having the exact same issues.
And I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. :P It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2015, 04:54:47 AMAnd I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. :P It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.
You are despicable.
Meanwhile Macedonia registered 7600 migrants arriving in the last 24 hours.
In Hungary they are nearing 1000 "caught" by the police just today so far.
It would appear that the last couple of months have just been the slow start of the real deal that still hasn't started yet.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 04:56:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2015, 04:54:47 AMAnd I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. :P It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.
You are despicable.
Me? Did Hungary not fail to handle the migrants? Did Denmark not conceded control of some of its roads to the migrants? Have Austria not stopped all train traffic between Budapest and Vienna, and also closed off part of the A1 motorway?
This is your Rage of the Week so I know you can't read properly, but I was attacking the ineptitude of EU governments, not the migrants.
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2015, 04:59:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 04:56:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2015, 04:54:47 AMAnd I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. :P It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.
You are despicable.
Me? Did Hungary not fail to handle the migrants? Did Denmark not conceded control of some of its roads to the migrants? Have Austria not stopped all train traffic between Budapest and Vienna, and also closed off part of the A1 motorway?
This is your Rage of the Week so I know you can't read properly, but I was attacking the ineptitude of EU governments, not the migrants.
I meant the first sentence I quoted.
What gall Martinus has. Tamas barely qualifies as white.
I'm certainly glad that we have the English Channel and are not members of Schengen. Immigration is over 600k a year here but it is conducted according to the law.
To prove Yi's thesis right:
A Syrian girl tries to bribe her way into Hungary with a biscuit
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COhnhdPW8AAmAsJ.jpg)
Another one after finally arriving in Sweden
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fasset.dr.dk%2Fimagescaler%2F%3Ffile%3D%252Fimages%252Fcrop%252F2015%252F09%252F10%252F1441899087_foto_4_1.jpg%26amp%3Bw%3D700%26amp%3Bh%3D394%26amp%3BscaleAfter%3Dcrop%26amp%3Bquality%3D80%26amp%3Bserver%3Dwww.dr.dk&hash=f685f40eeba7bd34a8b43f1da18e0c851c7b7d4e)
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2015, 04:54:47 AM
And I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. :P It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.
Will you claim refugee status from Orban's dictatorship then? May be not enough for the "out of EU" crowd in the UK. :P
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 11, 2015, 06:06:37 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2015, 04:54:47 AM
And I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. :P It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.
Will you claim refugee status from Orban's dictatorship then? May be not enough for the "out of EU" crowd in the UK. :P
I was just joking :p but I am quite disillusioned to see all this chaos, finger-pointing, and general cluelessness already happening, when we are still at the tutorial level of this whole thing. In other words, the EU is failing it's stress test
Quote from: Liep on September 11, 2015, 05:47:36 AM
To prove Yi's thesis right:
A Syrian girl tries to bribe her way into Hungary with a biscuit
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COhnhdPW8AAmAsJ.jpg[/img
Another one after finally arriving in Sweden
[img]http://asset.dr.dk/imagescaler/?file=%2Fimages%2Fcrop%2F2015%2F09%2F10%2F1441899087_foto_4_1.jpg&w=700&h=394&scaleAfter=crop&quality=80&server=www.dr.dk[/img
Please post pictures of the ugliest migrants.
Quote from: Liep on September 11, 2015, 05:47:36 AM
To prove Yi's thesis right:
A Syrian girl tries to bribe her way into Hungary with a biscuit
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COhnhdPW8AAmAsJ.jpg)
Another one after finally arriving in Sweden
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fasset.dr.dk%2Fimagescaler%2F%3Ffile%3D%252Fimages%252Fcrop%252F2015%252F09%252F10%252F1441899087_foto_4_1.jpg%26amp%3Bw%3D700%26amp%3Bh%3D394%26amp%3BscaleAfter%3Dcrop%26amp%3Bquality%3D80%26amp%3Bserver%3Dwww.dr.dk&hash=f685f40eeba7bd34a8b43f1da18e0c851c7b7d4e)
Man, all these Syrian young able men that he refugees are allegedly solely composed of sure look like little girls.
Yes Yi has been joking about that, do try to keep up.
Europe is being conquered by a bunch of cute toddlers.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 10, 2015, 08:38:28 PM
The Syria crisis turned Turkey into the major refugee-hosting nation (with an extra 1.59 million refugees), but the very large America just said it will take some 10,000.
Awesome.
Personally I think we should take all that want to come. But I believe in open borders so nobody should listen to me.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 11, 2015, 05:06:35 AM
I'm certainly glad that we have the English Channel and are not members of Schengen. Immigration is over 600k a year here but it is conducted according to the law.
:bowler:
Clearly a channel works better than a river.
All of this is the USA's fault, could have nuked the whole middle east years ago, this would not be happening.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 10, 2015, 08:20:32 PM
Wow, Mr. Generous.
200,000? Really?
Germany is 28 times smaller than the US and has one quarter of the population of America, yet is expecting four times that 'giant number' of yours. This year.
To be on the same level, you should be offering shelter to 3.2 million in 2015, and expecting far greater numbers in the coming years.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24583286
According to that link, there were 350,000 migrants detected at the EU borders in Jan - Aug 2015. Even if that is underreported, Germany is only expecting 800,000. There aren't 3.2 million migrants to accept.
We also have over 10 million people in the US that have migrated here illegally and if you pay attention to the republican debates even most of them are not in favor of pushing them out.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 12:10:49 AM
If only Mexicans were Christian...
Which goes a long way to why they are accepted (political grandstanding notwithstanding).
if we really wanted to troll europe, which i know we dont :(, we should announce that we will accept all the christians from the region without exception, as they are a persecuted minority. And leave unsaid that we are leaving you guys with the muslims. :P
Canada should volunteered to accept 200k refugees. By the wars end only about ~50k will stay in Canada.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 10, 2015, 08:20:32 PM
Wow, Mr. Generous.
200,000? Really?
Germany is 28 times smaller than the US and has one quarter of the population of America, yet is expecting four times that 'giant number' of yours. This year.
To be on the same level, you should be offering shelter to 3.2 million in 2015, and expecting far greater numbers in the coming years.
.
Europe has an enormous immigrant debt to the US. Tens of millions of immigrants left Europe to the go to the US. There are currently 40 million immigrants in the US.
Quote from: Liep on September 10, 2015, 08:27:42 AM
Refugees have cleared the highways and things are back to normal.
I like this picture from yesterday:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COir3C5UAAA00Nr.jpg)
Kids are cute generally. Not particularly surprising but it does help to remind people of that every now and then.
Immigrants are not necessarily refugees.
Granted back in those days we had no immigration controls, for the most part, so there was no distinction if you were some ambitious guy seeking free land in the US West or if you were a Ukrainian Jew fleeing pogroms.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 11, 2015, 11:00:55 AM
Kids are cute generally. Not particularly surprising but it does help to remind people of that every now and then.
My kids are the cutest though.
My kids would kick your kid's ass.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 11:01:19 AM
Immigrants are not necessarily refugees.
Granted back in those days we had no immigration controls, for the most part, so there was no distinction if you were some ambitious guy seeking free land in the US West or if you were a Ukrainian Jew fleeing pogroms.
Probably helped to have huge tracts of lands with no documented previous owners.
Quote from: Syt on September 11, 2015, 11:31:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 11:01:19 AM
Immigrants are not necessarily refugees.
Granted back in those days we had no immigration controls, for the most part, so there was no distinction if you were some ambitious guy seeking free land in the US West or if you were a Ukrainian Jew fleeing pogroms.
Probably helped to have huge tracts of lands with no documented previous owners.
Oh there were documented previous owners. The French, the Spanish, Mexico, The Kingdom of Hawai'i, the Russian Empire. Not sure who else you are referring to :P
:P
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 11, 2015, 11:00:55 AM
Kids are cute generally. Not particularly surprising but it does help to remind people of that every now and then.
On the other hand, children are generally a nuisance. Not particularly surprising but it does help to remind people of that every now and then.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 07:10:46 AM
Personally I think we should take all that want to come. But I believe in open borders so nobody should listen to me.
Done.
Maybe we can take a lesson from the Fallout games and build vaults. I don't think anyone would mind if the news headline was "10,000 Syrian refugees will be placed in a vault in the Appalachian mountains. The vault will reopen in 2175."
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 11, 2015, 10:17:47 AM
Canada should volunteered to accept 200k refugees. By the wars end only about ~50k will stay in Canada.
Until the next war happens, when those 150k of now "Canadian citizens" will demand to be airlifted back to safety in Canada.
Quote from: derspiess on September 11, 2015, 12:51:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 07:10:46 AM
Personally I think we should take all that want to come. But I believe in open borders so nobody should listen to me.
Done.
Yet you responded to my post *mindblown*
Quote from: Barrister on September 11, 2015, 12:54:28 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 11, 2015, 10:17:47 AM
Canada should volunteered to accept 200k refugees. By the wars end only about ~50k will stay in Canada.
Until the next war happens, when those 150k of now "Canadian citizens" will demand to be airlifted back to safety in Canada.
They can ask but we don't even have the capacity to airlift 10k person.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 07:06:50 AM
Man, all these Syrian young able men that he refugees are allegedly solely composed of sure look like little girls.
It's not "alleged", they are the official UN numbers, in case you cannot read, this is the infographic:
http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.171704992.1447245490.1441933645 (http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.171704992.1447245490.1441933645)
What happens is that that media gives an enormous attention and displays a disproportionate amount of attention to the kids. If there are a few among the crowd, they are the ones that will be photographed.
These are more accurate photos of those that arrive from Africa:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.niemanlab.org%2Fimages%2Fitaly-migrants-africa-ap-700x473.jpg&hash=5f36d8cdf1eb00119d11af8bb8b165aa46b71389)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgreece.greekreporter.com%2Ffiles%2FImmigrants1-e1433352873813.jpg&hash=6ded5d483357c122a35cb364d9cb46a0c522e5fb)
And this one, from those arriving via Turkey (photo taken in Macedonia):
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.images.express.co.uk%2Fimg%2Fdynamic%2F78%2F590x%2Fsecondary%2Fmigrant-crowd-border-335228.jpg&hash=dfd4c07c10bc0181a1682042c09586ad72ba1bc2)
Of course, there is an agenda: if they show the real faces of 72% of the migrants, instead of focusing on the 15% cute children, people in Europe may actually figure out what they are actually letting in and welcoming as kings in their countries.
Quote from: Alfred Russell
According to that link, there were 350,000 migrants detected at the EU borders in Jan - Aug 2015. Even if that is underreported, Germany is only expecting 800,000. There aren't 3.2 million migrants to accept.
We also have over 10 million people in the US that have migrated here illegally and if you pay attention to the republican debates even most of them are not in favor of pushing them out.
I was putting things into context to show that your 'giant' figure of 200,000 is a drop in the Ocean.
The numbers will rise nonstop. The UN warned today of millions more to come from Syria http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3230971/Europe-expect-millions-millions-refugees-Syria-war-turned-country-living-hell-warns-UN.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3230971/Europe-expect-millions-millions-refugees-Syria-war-turned-country-living-hell-warns-UN.html).
But that does not tell the whole story. There are people on the move from Senegal to Pakistan, and as word of the ease of arrival and get house free and free dole money spreads, many, many more millions will start to move to Europe. When the idea becomes more popular in India and China, we will be seeing a migration wave the likes of which has never been seen before in History.
Note that I am only referring to the current migrant crisis.
If you do want to make a link to your illegal migrants from Mexico, Europe has been recieving millions from North Africa, Eastern Europe and other parts of the world during the last decades, too. We are not that different when it comes to taking in illegal immigrants, though the EU does not collect data on undocumented people in the same way the US do.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 11, 2015, 02:03:35 PM
But that does not tell the whole story. There are people on the move from Senegal to Pakistan, and as word of the ease of arrival and get house free and free dole money spreads, many, many more millions will start to move to Europe. When the idea becomes more popular in India and China, we will be seeing a migration wave the likes of which has never been seen before in History.
Wait why? What has changed that would make millions of people from Senegal to China move to Europe? There are barely enough jobs now. As for all this free money, the European governments are struggling with debts as it is.
QuoteBut that does not tell the whole story. There are people on the move from Senegal to Pakistan, and as word of the ease of arrival and get house free and free dole money spreads, many, many more millions will start to move to Europe. When the idea becomes more popular in India and China, we will be seeing a migration wave the likes of which has never been seen before in History.
Interviews with illegal immigrants to the UK suggest that they already thought this would be the case.
Its still not the entire country swarming over.
Just look at Eastern Europe, the new EU countries. They have full rights to move to the west and get everything natives do.... a lot of them have but the majority of the country has remained at home.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 11, 2015, 02:03:35 PM
These are more accurate photos of those that arrive from Africa:
http://www.niemanlab.org/images/italy-migrants-africa-ap-700x473.jpg (http://www.niemanlab.org/images/italy-migrants-africa-ap-700x473.jpg)
http://greece.greekreporter.com/files/Immigrants1-e1433352873813.jpg (http://greece.greekreporter.com/files/Immigrants1-e1433352873813.jpg)
Ooh, Scary black people! Europe could use bit more chocolate, pale-ass honkies.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 02:10:16 PM
Wait why? What has changed that would make millions of people from Senegal to China move to Europe? There are barely enough jobs now. As for all this free money, the European governments are struggling with debts as it is.
Changed?
In the last decades, people from those areas have always been trying to reach Europe. What we had was a policy of bribing the North African states to stop most of them from crossing the Mediterranean.
These are the routes from Africa:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdf4nxvxrtv1g1.cloudfront.net%2Fcontent%2Feurpub%2F24%2Fsuppl_1%2F11%2FF1.medium.gif&hash=b281f5073f674aed175d9a6dfffb471b0cc21392)
And these the general ones:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics.thomsonreuters.com%2F15%2Fmigrants%2Fimg%2F88966af7.map-lg.png&hash=7cf96faab96d913502e115f6bc4c803df63a351d)
But things changed now. For some reasons.
First, the regime of Khadafi fell. That means the Lybian coast is no longer patrolled, so the ships can now sail from there easily to Europe.
Second, Turkey is pissed at the EU. You may notice that the Turks no longer stop people crossing the Aegean Sea, much less the Afghanis that have been moving through Iran and Turkey to Europe.
The Chinese have always been trying to get in. Usually around 200,000 were at the EU borders at any given time, trying to enter. This is a rather small number (for China), but if word gets out that entries are now easy, this number will skyrocket.
As for jobs: Europe is percieved as the land of Gold. The excellent welfare given in most countries (especially Germany and Sweden) means that they can earn far more than they could by just living off subsidies in these countries, than they could ever expect to make in their own countries by working hard.
So there is really no reason for them not to come here, really.
Quote from: Tyr
Just look at Eastern Europe, the new EU countries. They have full rights to move to the west and get everything natives do.... a lot of them have but the majority of the country has remained at home.
Eastern Europe and the Third World are not comparable. The first has declining birth rates, the second doubles its population every 10 years.
If the same percentage of people that left East Europe for Western Europe comes to Europe from the Third World, we're talking about tens of millions of people.
Except, of course, that living standards in Africa and East Asia are far worse than those in Eastern Europe (and wages much smaller), so numbers should be rather higher.
Huh. So what was up with all those articles about the angry immigrant communities marginalized without any hope or opportunities in the bleak ghettos of racist Euro-land?
Quote from: Tyr on September 11, 2015, 02:12:58 PM
QuoteBut that does not tell the whole story. There are people on the move from Senegal to Pakistan, and as word of the ease of arrival and get house free and free dole money spreads, many, many more millions will start to move to Europe. When the idea becomes more popular in India and China, we will be seeing a migration wave the likes of which has never been seen before in History.
Interviews with illegal immigrants to the UK suggest that they already thought this would be the case.
Its still not the entire country swarming over.
Just look at Eastern Europe, the new EU countries. They have full rights to move to the west and get everything natives do.... a lot of them have but the majority of the country has remained at home.
The disparity between EU states is tiny compared to the disparity between the EU and third world countries. Half of India doesn't even have access to a toilet for example.
QuoteThe disparity between EU states is tiny compared to the disparity between the EU and third world countries. Half of India doesn't even have access to a toilet for example.
Human comprehension tends not to be entirely accurate though. The actual mental gap as people see it isn't so great as the actual gap. Especially when you consider the difficulty in comprehending something you've never experienced.
QuoteEastern Europe and the Third World are not comparable. The first has declining birth rates, the second doubles its population every 10 years.
If the same percentage of people that left East Europe for Western Europe comes to Europe from the Third World, we're talking about tens of millions of people.
Except, of course, that living standards in Africa and East Asia are far worse than those in Eastern Europe (and wages much smaller), so numbers should be rather higher.
For Eastern Europe the journey is an entirely legal £50 flight (or a rather uncomfortable £5 or something equally crazy bus ride).
For the 3rd world it is rather more arduous and uncertain.
Don't underestimate the propensity of the majority to stick with what they've got.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 02:27:40 PM
Huh. So what was up with all those articles about the angry immigrant communities marginalized without any hope or opportunities in the bleak ghettos of racist Euro-land?
People in Third World countries don't read those, nor do they care about it. All they hear is that they will be given housing and money for free when they arrive in Europe, and that's all they need to hear.
That's why it's mostly young men doing the crossing - the voyage is often paid by their families, and if they manage to get in, they invoke the right to unite with relatives to bring the rest over.
Also, they recieve good subsidies for any kids they have, so having kids is their best source of income (Jacques Chirac once gave the example of an unenployed Lebanese migrant that made more money from the child allowance he recieved from his many kids than a comparable french couple that worked hard to sustain their single child)
raciss
Well if Honest Jacques said, you can bank on it.
I don't know. The Latinos sneak over here to take pre-existing jobs and send the money back to their families. Our immigration laws fail because of that darn free market. But as the birth rates in Latin America decline and our job situation gets worse they stop coming. It works out.
If what Martin saying is true this migration is completely unsustainable and will fry the Euro welfare states in no time. Not to mention they are immigrating into already very densely populated countries. It wouldn't take long for things to go badly very quickly and the migration to stop. I have a hard time believing it will be the largest migration wave in history.
Here is one exercise you all can do to put the situation in perspective.
1. Go to Google
2. Type '[country] population' (for example, Nigeria Population) in the search bar.
3. A graph with the evolution of the population of that country over the years will appear.
4. Hover over the graph to the year you were born to see how many people that country had back then.
5. Then move in periods of 10 years to see how it evolved.
6. Do this to any nation you want. Recommended are the African, Middle Eastern and East Asian nations.
7. Do the same for European nations.
8. Think about it.
I love it how arch-leftist Martim Silva turns into a ethnic nationalist, and starts citing Jaques Chirac to boot.
If the refugee crisis leads to Sweden abandoning the welfare state at least some good will have come out of it.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 11, 2015, 02:46:37 PM
Here is one exercise you all can do to put the situation in perspective.
1. Go to Google
2. Type '[country] population' (for example, Nigeria Population) in the search bar.
3. A graph with the evolution of the population of that country over the years will appear.
4. Hover over the graph to the year you were born to see how many people that country had back then.
5. Then move in periods of 10 years to see how it evolved.
6. Do this to any nation you want. Recommended are the African, Middle Eastern and East Asian nations.
7. Do the same for European nations.
8. Think about it.
I have to say Nigeria's population is growing crazy fast. It makes every other African nation look like a flat line (though the Democratic Republic of the Congo (WTF?) and Ethiopia are also making people at a crazy rate). Iran is growing but I don't see anything about a massive outflow of Iranians.
I mean yeah South Africa doubled their population in 40 years. So what? That is only slightly faster than the world population.
Quote from: garbon on September 10, 2015, 07:33:05 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on September 10, 2015, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 09, 2015, 08:02:31 PM
I am reading this book now.
http://smile.amazon.com/Invasion-Europe-Barbarians-J-Bury/dp/0393003884/
"The classic study of the Roman Empire's gradual collapse in the face of barbarian migrations. The barbarians were a scattered assortment of peoples, from the migratory Huns of Central Asia to the Franks of Gaul to the Goths and Vandals of the Germanic forest. Rather than regarding Rome as a foe, many barbarians viewed the Empire as a great institution, one in which their people had a natural place."
Peter Heather's book on the same subject is definitely worth reading.
Which one? I seem to recall he's written several on the same subject. :D
Sorry, this one: (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51F1B%2BsOmIL._UY250_.jpg)
Quote from: Barrister on September 11, 2015, 02:50:57 PM
I love it how arch-leftist Martim Silva turns into a ethnic nationalist, and starts citing Jaques Chirac to boot.
He's always been a fascist. Population of the US keeps increasing at a pretty good pace.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 10, 2015, 11:35:17 PM
I've just finished reading Peter Heather's book on the fall of the Roman Empire. It has a lurid cover so I nearly didn't buy it, an excellent read though with some interesting ideas, recommended.
Lurid cover? Which one? :unsure:
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 12:00:25 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 11, 2015, 11:00:55 AM
Kids are cute generally. Not particularly surprising but it does help to remind people of that every now and then.
On the other hand, children are generally a nuisance. Not particularly surprising but it does help to remind people of that every now and then.
One needs to have a particular point of view or lifestyle to accept that as a general principle. :P
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2015, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 11, 2015, 02:50:57 PM
I love it how arch-leftist Martim Silva turns into a ethnic nationalist, and starts citing Jaques Chirac to boot.
He's always been a fascist. Population of the US keeps increasing at a pretty good pace.
US population is increasing because it is too taking in large amounts of immigrants, especially from South America.
In fact, if you see the US population line, you can see America too will eventually reach a breaking point, though at a later stage. In 1995 you had 266 million people, 20 years later you have 316 million. This is not sustainable.
It was mentioned that Latin America has declining birth rates, but if so they are not visible. Honduras went from 5 million people in 1991 to 8 million in 2013 (+40%). In the same time period, Guatemala rose from 9 to 15 million (+66%), Brazil from 152 to 200 million (+31%), Colombia from 34 to 48 million (+41%), Mexico from 88 to 122 million (+38%). And the pattern is the same throughout the region, which in addition has trouble creating jobs.
Doubt that all those excess young people will just languish in the streets of their countries.
Also, there is a difference between being from the Left and being from the 'Caviar Left'. Someone that cares about workers KNOWS that this movement means misery for the poorer classes, which will either be smothered in taxes to pay for the newcomers' welfare, have their wages drastically cut to compete, or see housing prices skyrocket, as the construction industry cannot cope with all the new demand (this is particularly true in the overpopulated UK).
The 'Caviar Left' - which is the one you allude to - actually works with big businesses and just plays the 'feel-good' card, always refusing to face the problems, using 'smoke and mirror' tactics, never taking any tough decisions or giving a rats' ass about the future of the poor in their country.
(There is a reason why the Greek KKE always refused any coalition with the fools of Syriza, and why all parties like the KKE refuse alliances with parties like the Syriza. Because that Left that advogates irrestricted immigration is the false Left of pampered rich city brats, who does not care about the workers).
That said, the situation in Europe is not good at all. Even if all migrants were blue-eyed blondes, such a massive influx of people means a severe strain on the finances of the EU member states. Even because the 'better educated' are educated in writing in Arabic (useless), speak Arabic (useless) and have courses that were marked by Islamic teachings (if you get to speak with a Syrian about this, he will kindly explain to you that in his country the courses and degrees you can take are determined by how many of the Sacred Texts you know by heart, not by technical knowledge).
Btw, I think it has ocurred to you all that these regions are not known for their stellar engineers, doctors or large factories, right? These people never had the professional skills Europe needs.
That makes it an economic crisis.
However, almost all come from a different civilization, the Islamic one, bound by their ways. And they are not nice.
From throwing to the sea any Christians they find on their boats bound for Europe:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/16/europe/italy-migrants-christians-thrown-overboard/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/16/europe/italy-migrants-christians-thrown-overboard/)
to executing Christans on the beaches of Libya to ensure only Muslims board the ships:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4416389.ece (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4416389.ece)
To refusing aid packages because they are not Halal and have a cross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeMIX90-594 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeMIX90-594)
Means that these people will come into direct clash with the cultures of the nations they are entering, far beyond anything the christian mexicans can ever do in the US.
Taken together (and add the fact that ISIS said it managed to make 4,000 if its fighters enter the EU posing as migrants, which means a lot of terrorist attacks to come), we have a situation that will lead societies to the brink.
Since the UN and European governments are warning that many more millions will come in the very near future, the strain is enough for us to envision a breaking point scenario.
We really don't even need to reach the race issue, the red lines that indicate a civilizational collapse start to flash wildly far before that.
Quote from: Habbaku on September 11, 2015, 03:37:15 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 10, 2015, 11:35:17 PM
I've just finished reading Peter Heather's book on the fall of the Roman Empire. It has a lurid cover so I nearly didn't buy it, an excellent read though with some interesting ideas, recommended.
Lurid cover? Which one? :unsure:
Presumably the British one with the statue, the red background and the suggestion of flames.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fall-Roman-Empire-New-History/dp/0330491369/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1442006887&sr=8-2&keywords=peter+heather
Quote from: Barrister on September 11, 2015, 02:50:57 PM
I love it how arch-leftist Martim Silva turns into a ethnic nationalist, and starts citing Jaques Chirac to boot.
Since when Chirac is a reference in either area? This anecdote referred by Martim is an exception, Chirac was drunk "le bruit et l'odeur". Chirac is actually the one to blame for most of immigration in France with his stupid family regrouping. Chirac came from the Left. Apart from that, he was never really known for being coherent: pro-Turkey in the EU, but against Portugal and Spain in the EEC.
I didn't call you a leftist. I said fascist. The people of Syria come from a country with a similar ideology as your own so really you should be happy to have so many allies.
Poor bastards, I wonder if it's a kind of mass hysteria for them: they are already in Austria, what is all this rush to get to Germany?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2unh-_VbKuQ&feature=player_embedded
BTW, is the news true, that some migrants on a ship in Swedish waters threatened to jump into the water because they wanted to register in Finland and/or Norway instead of Sweden? :lol:
And for a while I thought the quota system would actually work :lol:
My offer to take in Assad's wife stil stands
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 11, 2015, 06:04:08 PM
My offer to take in Assad's wife stil stands
+1.
You could install her in your Normandy chateau and I'll occasionally pay her a visit via Cherbourg or Caen. :fullmonty:
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2015, 06:03:10 PM
BTW, is the news true, that some migrants on a ship in Swedish waters threatened to jump into the water because they wanted to register in Finland and/or Norway instead of Sweden? :lol:
And for a while I thought the quota system would actually work :lol:
In Denmark they went on a hunger strike because they didn't want to stay in Denmark but go to Sweden/Finland.
Orban says in German BILD that the refugees were perfectly safe in Turkey and Lebanon and only come to Europe looking for a better life. While he sympathizes with them, he says, there's no human right to a better life. He suggests that the EU should divert 1% of their budget to refugee projects in the countries neighboring Syria, and to keep increasing the funds until the refugees stop coming.
Austrian chancellor Faymann has again condemned how Hungary treats asylum seekers and added that putting people on trains, telling them that they'll go to A when in fact they're sent to B is reminiscent of the darkest chapter of history.
Quote from: Syt on September 12, 2015, 07:05:17 AM
Austrian chancellor Faymann has again condemned how Hungary treats asylum seekers and added that putting people on trains, telling them that they'll go to A when in fact they're sent to B is reminiscent of the darkest chapter of history.
:lmfao:
Yay for Godwin. Somebody has to tell Faymann what happened to the people put on trains during the darkest chapter of Austrian and German history.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 12, 2015, 07:12:52 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 12, 2015, 07:05:17 AM
Austrian chancellor Faymann has again condemned how Hungary treats asylum seekers and added that putting people on trains, telling them that they'll go to A when in fact they're sent to B is reminiscent of the darkest chapter of history.
:lmfao:
Yay for Godwin. Somebody has to tell Faymann what happened to the people put on trains during the darkest chapter of Austrian and German history.
Well, yes they haven't killed them...but then Hungary did send the asylum seekers by train to a camp without their knowledge, no?
By the by, I don't think the comparison is particularly useful but then we've seen much worse analogies come out of Europe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/world/europe/eastern-europe-migrant-refugee-crisis.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
QuoteEastern Bloc's Resistance to Refugees Highlights Europe's Cultural and Political Divisions
WARSAW — Even though the former Communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe have been asked to accept just a fraction of the refugees that Germany and other nations are taking, their fierce resistance now stands as the main impediment to a unified European response to the crisis.
Poland's new president, Andrzej Duda, has complained about "dictates" from the European Union to accept migrants flowing onto the Continent from the Middle East and Africa.
Slovakia's prime minister, Robert Fico, says his country will accept only Christian refugees as it would be "false solidarity" to force Muslims to settle in a country without a single mosque. Viktor Orban, Hungary's hard-line prime minister, calls the influx a "rebellion by illegal migrants" and pledges a new crackdown this week.
The discord has further unsettled a union already shaky from struggles over the euro and the Greek financial crisis and now facing a historic influx of people attracted by Europe's relative peace and prosperity.
When representatives of the European Union nations meet on Monday to take up a proposal for allocating refugees among them, Central and Eastern Europen nations are likely to be the most vocal opponents. Their stance — reflecting a mix of powerful far-right movements, nationalism, racial and religious prejudices as well as economic arguments that they are less able to afford to take in outsiders than their wealthier neighbors — is the latest evidence of the stubborn cultural and political divides that persist between East and West.
When joining the European Union — as the former Communist countries have done since 2004 — nations are asked to pledge support to a raft of so-called European values, including open markets, transparent government, respect for an independent media, open borders, cultural diversity, protection of minorities and a rejection of xenophobia.
But the reality is that the former Communist states have proved sluggish in actually absorbing many of these values and practicing them. Oligarchs, cronyism and endemic corruption remain a part of daily life in many of the countries, freedom of the press is in decline while rising nationalism and populist political movements have stirred anti-immigrant tensions.
"People must remember that Poland has been transitioning from communism for only 25 years," Lech Walesa, who led that country's independence movement, said in an interview. "Our salaries and houses are still smaller than those in the West. Many people here don't believe that they have anything to share with migrants. Especially that they see that migrants are often well-dressed, sometimes better than many Poles."
Few migrants, in fact, are particularly interested in settling in Eastern Europe, preferring to head to Germany or Scandinavia, where social welfare benefits are higher, employment opportunities greater and immigrant communities better established. In that sense, migrants are aligned with leaders in Eastern and Central European capitals, who frequently argue that the 28-member bloc should focus first on securing its borders and figuring out a way to end the war in Syria before talking about mandatory quotas for accepting refugees.
But as often as not, the political discourse in these countries has quickly moved toward a wariness of accepting racial and religious diversity.
"This refugee flow has outraged the right wing," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "If you scratch the surface, why are they so upset? It's not about jobs or the ability to manage them or social welfare. What it is really about is that they are Muslim."
Unlike countries in Western Europe, which have long histories of accepting immigrants from diverse cultures, the former Communist states tend to be highly homogeneous. Poland, for instance, is 98 percent white and 94 percent Catholic.
"And the countries that have very little diversity are some of the most virulently against refugees," said Andrew Stroehlein, European media director for Human Rights Watch.
Even mainstream political leaders eager for closer ties to Brussels, the European Union's headquarters, feel pressure to appeal to this growing nationalist wave.
By toughening up their rhetoric and showing a strong hand toward the Roma minority, facing down the E.U. and refusing a common solution to the refugee crisis, they are trying to outbid the far right and keep the traditional political parties in power," said Zuzana Kusá, a senior research fellow at the Institute for Sociology of the Slovak Academy of Sciences.
There is also widespread disappointment with the pace of economic change since communism's fall, and a sense that the countries are too poor to offer substantial support to immigrants.
"There is a long history of victimization in our region," said Csaba Szaló, a professor of sociology at Masaryk University in Brno. "We are the ones who have always been victims of injustice, the ones who have suffered. And now there is somebody trying to grab that status. People find it very difficult to accept that somebody might suffer more than us."
While rising xenophobia is playing a role, there are other factors behind the East-West divide, said Marcin Zaborowski, executive vice president at the Center for European Policy Analysis and head of its Warsaw office.
"The primary reason for this difference in attitude is that we come from a region where the tradition of accepting culturally different refugees is very weak," he said. "And now there is this wave of refugees from another continent that has no precedent, so people don't know what to think."
Most of the countries, like Poland, have "no proper infrastructure in place to deal with such cultural assimilation" and little appetite to spend precious resources building one, Mr. Zaborowski said.
As for the region's seeming indifference to the migrants' plight, that is partly because unlike France, Britain and Germany, the former Communist states have no history of colonialism, he said.
"The attitude is: We didn't meddle in these countries that are now sending the refugees, like other nations did, and so we have no sense of guilt about our obligation to deal with them," Mr. Zaborowski said.
And all of these attitudes blend together into a common aversion to being told what to do by Brussels.
In Hungary, Mr. Orban has taken a particularly uncompromising approach, demanding more help from Brussels in dealing with the tens of thousands who continue to enter his country while insisting that Hungary is under no obligation to endanger its traditional Christian values by accepting large numbers of Muslims.
Problems in Germany?
Quote@PolizeiMuenchen
13.09.2015 / 12:46 Uhr: Wer zu Hause noch Kekse hat und helfen möchte...bitte für die #Flüchtlinge zum Hbf #München bringen.
Munich is the main entry point for refugees. The city is overwhelmed by the numbers because the distribution to other cities and regions is simply not fast enough at the moment.
So does anyone here think this will seem like a smart move in 5 years?
October fest will be interesting this year
Quote from: Tyr on September 13, 2015, 06:58:56 AM
October fest will be interesting this year
Because of the traffic chaos in Munich central station? I doubt you'll notice any other difference to other years.
Looks like we will introduce border controls again, though for now limited to the border with Austria.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34239674 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34239674)
Quote from: Syt on September 12, 2015, 03:52:48 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/world/europe/eastern-europe-migrant-refugee-crisis.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
QuoteEastern Bloc's Resistance to Refugees Highlights Europe's Cultural and Political Divisions
WARSAW — Even though the former Communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe have been asked to accept just a fraction of the refugees that Germany and other nations are taking, their fierce resistance now stands as the main impediment to a unified European response to the crisis.
Poland's new president, Andrzej Duda, has complained about "dictates" from the European Union to accept migrants flowing onto the Continent from the Middle East and Africa.
Slovakia's prime minister, Robert Fico, says his country will accept only Christian refugees as it would be "false solidarity" to force Muslims to settle in a country without a single mosque. Viktor Orban, Hungary's hard-line prime minister, calls the influx a "rebellion by illegal migrants" and pledges a new crackdown this week.
The discord has further unsettled a union already shaky from struggles over the euro and the Greek financial crisis and now facing a historic influx of people attracted by Europe's relative peace and prosperity.
When representatives of the European Union nations meet on Monday to take up a proposal for allocating refugees among them, Central and Eastern Europen nations are likely to be the most vocal opponents. Their stance — reflecting a mix of powerful far-right movements, nationalism, racial and religious prejudices as well as economic arguments that they are less able to afford to take in outsiders than their wealthier neighbors — is the latest evidence of the stubborn cultural and political divides that persist between East and West.
When joining the European Union — as the former Communist countries have done since 2004 — nations are asked to pledge support to a raft of so-called European values, including open markets, transparent government, respect for an independent media, open borders, cultural diversity, protection of minorities and a rejection of xenophobia.
But the reality is that the former Communist states have proved sluggish in actually absorbing many of these values and practicing them. Oligarchs, cronyism and endemic corruption remain a part of daily life in many of the countries, freedom of the press is in decline while rising nationalism and populist political movements have stirred anti-immigrant tensions.
"People must remember that Poland has been transitioning from communism for only 25 years," Lech Walesa, who led that country's independence movement, said in an interview. "Our salaries and houses are still smaller than those in the West. Many people here don't believe that they have anything to share with migrants. Especially that they see that migrants are often well-dressed, sometimes better than many Poles."
Few migrants, in fact, are particularly interested in settling in Eastern Europe, preferring to head to Germany or Scandinavia, where social welfare benefits are higher, employment opportunities greater and immigrant communities better established. In that sense, migrants are aligned with leaders in Eastern and Central European capitals, who frequently argue that the 28-member bloc should focus first on securing its borders and figuring out a way to end the war in Syria before talking about mandatory quotas for accepting refugees.
But as often as not, the political discourse in these countries has quickly moved toward a wariness of accepting racial and religious diversity.
"This refugee flow has outraged the right wing," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "If you scratch the surface, why are they so upset? It's not about jobs or the ability to manage them or social welfare. What it is really about is that they are Muslim."
Unlike countries in Western Europe, which have long histories of accepting immigrants from diverse cultures, the former Communist states tend to be highly homogeneous. Poland, for instance, is 98 percent white and 94 percent Catholic.
"And the countries that have very little diversity are some of the most virulently against refugees," said Andrew Stroehlein, European media director for Human Rights Watch.
Even mainstream political leaders eager for closer ties to Brussels, the European Union's headquarters, feel pressure to appeal to this growing nationalist wave.
By toughening up their rhetoric and showing a strong hand toward the Roma minority, facing down the E.U. and refusing a common solution to the refugee crisis, they are trying to outbid the far right and keep the traditional political parties in power," said Zuzana Kusá, a senior research fellow at the Institute for Sociology of the Slovak Academy of Sciences.
There is also widespread disappointment with the pace of economic change since communism's fall, and a sense that the countries are too poor to offer substantial support to immigrants.
"There is a long history of victimization in our region," said Csaba Szaló, a professor of sociology at Masaryk University in Brno. "We are the ones who have always been victims of injustice, the ones who have suffered. And now there is somebody trying to grab that status. People find it very difficult to accept that somebody might suffer more than us."
While rising xenophobia is playing a role, there are other factors behind the East-West divide, said Marcin Zaborowski, executive vice president at the Center for European Policy Analysis and head of its Warsaw office.
"The primary reason for this difference in attitude is that we come from a region where the tradition of accepting culturally different refugees is very weak," he said. "And now there is this wave of refugees from another continent that has no precedent, so people don't know what to think."
Most of the countries, like Poland, have "no proper infrastructure in place to deal with such cultural assimilation" and little appetite to spend precious resources building one, Mr. Zaborowski said.
As for the region's seeming indifference to the migrants' plight, that is partly because unlike France, Britain and Germany, the former Communist states have no history of colonialism, he said.
"The attitude is: We didn't meddle in these countries that are now sending the refugees, like other nations did, and so we have no sense of guilt about our obligation to deal with them," Mr. Zaborowski said.
And all of these attitudes blend together into a common aversion to being told what to do by Brussels.
In Hungary, Mr. Orban has taken a particularly uncompromising approach, demanding more help from Brussels in dealing with the tens of thousands who continue to enter his country while insisting that Hungary is under no obligation to endanger its traditional Christian values by accepting large numbers of Muslims.
I was talking to a friend today (who is also for helping/accepting the refugees) that this is probably the first time I remember in a very long time when I am encountering a complete cognitive dissonance from people I know. What I mean by that is most of my friends / colleagues / close family have, broadly speaking, similar outlook on life as I do - sure there may be differences but I kinda know where everybody stands and so on. Now, this is the first instance in so many years when people I considered open minded, tolerant and generally "modern" suddenly express views that are extremely racist and backwards (and I mean, really really racist - think grallon +10). It is mindboggling, especially given Poles are a nation that has had a lot of migration and refugee-dom in its history, and should be able to show at least a bit of fucking empathy.
A German left wing paper posited that Poland after WW2 was much less diverse, much more homogeneous than before, and that this, together with being a repressive foreign-dominated regime has left the populace distrustful of everything that's different.
Quote from: Queequeg on September 13, 2015, 06:54:23 AM
So does anyone here think this will seem like a smart move in 5 years?
I don't know if you are religious, Psellus, but just on the offhand that there is G-d and I stand to Final Judgement in some years, I would not want to go to it, arguing why I did not help thousands of dying people in need, because it was not "smart".
From that perspective, a 5 years perspective sounds awfully shortsighted.
Quote from: Syt on September 13, 2015, 11:15:07 AM
A German left wing paper posited that Poland after WW2 was much less diverse, much more homogeneous than before, and that this, together with being a repressive foreign-dominated regime has left the populace distrustful of everything that's different.
That's a given - not really a hypothesis as much as a fact.
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2015, 11:08:56 AM
.....
I was talking to a friend today (who is also for helping/accepting the refugees) that this is probably the first time I remember in a very long time when I am encountering a complete cognitive dissonance from people I know. What I mean by that is most of my friends / colleagues / close family have, broadly speaking, similar outlook on life as I do - sure there may be differences but I kinda know where everybody stands and so on. Now, this is the first issue in so many years when people I considered open minded, tolerant and generally "modern" suddenly express views that are extremely racist and backwards (and I mean, really really racist - think grallon +10). It is mindboggling, especially given Poles are a national that has had a lot of migration and refugee-dom in its history, and should be able to show at least a bit of fucking empathy.
Yes it's almost as if some European states, peoples or individuals are involved in a competition to see who can be the most callous, whilst simultaneously forgetting their own history.
Speaking of cultural differences, I have read that Getmany has stopped railroad traffic from Austria and is planning to reinstate border controls on the Austrian border
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2015, 12:03:06 PM
Speaking of cultural differences, I have read that Getmany has stopped railroad traffic from Austria and is planning to reinstate border controls on the Austrian border
Like was already reported up the thread? :P
@Zanza, you made the mistake of trying to talk to Andrelvis - he's an arrogant douchebag. He's a Brazilian who came to Austria to study and who stayed for work/marriage, but he's more Austrian than most Austrians now (anti-EU, xenophobe etc.).
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2015, 12:03:06 PM
Speaking of cultural differences, I have read that Getmany has stopped railroad traffic from Austria and is planning to reinstate border controls on the Austrian border
What is the "cultural differences" aspect of that? :huh:
Quote from: Syt on September 13, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
@Zanza, you made the mistake of trying to talk to Andrelvis - he's an arrogant douchebag. He's a Brazilian who came to Austria to study and who stayed for work/marriage, but he's more Austrian than most Austrians now (anti-EU, xenophobe etc.).
Yes, I know. Not sure why I even took his bait. Fuck him.
Quote from: Zanza on September 13, 2015, 12:26:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2015, 12:03:06 PM
Speaking of cultural differences, I have read that Getmany has stopped railroad traffic from Austria and is planning to reinstate border controls on the Austrian border
What is the "cultural differences" aspect of that? :huh:
I was being sarcastic.
Quote from: Zanza on September 13, 2015, 12:26:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2015, 12:03:06 PM
Speaking of cultural differences, I have read that Getmany has stopped railroad traffic from Austria and is planning to reinstate border controls on the Austrian border
What is the "cultural differences" aspect of that? :huh:
I assume Tamas meant that Germany was worthy of ridicule because it did not manage to deal with absolute perfection with an aftermath of egoistical racist Hungarians making the mess.
I'm perturbed by the concept of the Grallon +10 racists :hmm:
I meant that maybe countries and people should refrain from judging something before they have the chance to manage to try it themselves.
Hungary has done many things wrong regarding this crisis, but even if they did everything right it is something very hard to manage if you want to avoid bashing heads in (and you definitely should).
This is evidenced by what is Germany is being forced to do.
Germans are a Kulturvolk.
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2015, 02:58:31 PM
I meant that maybe countries and people should refrain from judging something before they have the chance to manage to try it themselves.
Hungary has done many things wrong regarding this crisis, but even if they did everything right it is something very hard to manage if you want to avoid bashing heads in (and you definitely should).
This is evidenced by what is Germany is being forced to do.
Okay, we Americans will continue to judge.
Quote from: mongers on September 13, 2015, 11:18:55 AM
Yes it's almost as if some European states, peoples or individuals are involved in a competition to see who can be the most callous, whilst simultaneously forgetting their own history.
Forgetting their history? Quite the opposite. The people in France remember the media manipulation around illegals immigrants squatting churches (why not mosques btw?), by playing the old repentance, self-hatred card, while enriching the charity-business and giving PR opportunities for celebrities in need of advertising.
They also know what happens with unrestricted immigration: ethnic enclaves.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_Saint-Bernard_de_la_Chapelle (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_Saint-Bernard_de_la_Chapelle)
QuoteL'occupation de l'église en 1996[modifier | modifier le code]
Le 28 juin 1996, trois cents étrangers en situation irrégulière - en majorité des Maliens et des Sénégalais - commencent l'occupation de l'église pour demander leur régularisation. Ils avaient occupé l'église Saint-Ambroise à Paris le 18 mars 1996, mais s'en étaient fait expulser dans l'indifférence après une visite du cardinal Lustiger, qui avait autorisé le curé à donner les clefs à la police5.
Ils avaient ensuite occupé d'autres lieux de la capitale (le gymnase Japy le 22 mars, les locaux de différentes associations, la Cartoucherie de Vincennes le 29 mars, des entrepôts désaffectés de la SNCF le 10 avril5) dont ils se sont faits à chaque fois expulser. Autour de leur action se crée une forte médiatisation. L'expression « sans-papiers » connaît une large diffusion auprès du grand public à la suite de ces occupations6.
Le 23 août 1996 à l'aube, suite à un arrêté d'expulsion (visant l'occupation de l'église) pris d'urgence, sans que l'expulsion soit confirmée par un juge7, près de 1 500 CRS sont déployés8, pour ouvrir à coups de hache la porte de l'église et évacuer les occupants. Au total, l'évacuation de l'église se solde par 220 interpellations, dont 210 sans-papiers (98 hommes, 54 femmes et 68 enfants) qui sont placés dans le centre de rétention de Vincennes. Bien que tous soient en principe menacés d'arrêté de reconduite à la frontière, seules huit personnes le seront effectivement9. Certaines personnes disent que les modalités de cette expulsion sont incompatibles avec une déclaration de Jean-Louis Debré, ministre de l'Intérieur ayant ordonné l'expulsion, selon laquelle ce dernier agirait « avec humanité et cœur »5. Ce jour est devenu une date importante dans le mouvement des étrangers en situation irrégulière en France5.
L'épisode eut un écho international10.
En France, des manifestations rassemblent des dizaines de milliers de personnes contre la politique du gouvernement d'Alain Juppé5. Quelques étrangers en situation irrégulière sont expulsés, mais beaucoup restent, ayant des enfants nés en France, étant mariés, ou travaillant depuis longtemps en France5. En novembre 1997, la Cour de cassation rend un arrêt concernant l'évacuation de Saint-Bernard, jugeant que l'interpellation des personnes sur les lieux et par la suite expulsées était régulière, le fait de manifester publiquement son statut d'étranger autorisant celle-ci au visa de l'art. 8 de l'ordonnance du 2 novembre 194511,7.
Austria is sending the army to the Hungarian border to support the police in dealing with the influx.
Are we being a bit too harsh on the Europeans? I think they are extremely generous and nice. They are under no obligation to help but they are helping. They have done a lot but they don't seem to get much gratitude. All the media is saying is they are callous and not going enough.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 14, 2015, 04:40:41 AM
Are we being a bit too harsh on the Europeans? I think they are extremely generous and nice. They are under no obligation to help but they are helping. They have done a lot but they don't seem to get much gratitude. All the media is saying is they are callous and not going enough.
Mostly they're being too harsh on themselves. Well, I don't know about Chinese media.
Quote from: Syt on September 13, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
@Zanza, you made the mistake of trying to talk to Andrelvis - he's an arrogant douchebag. He's a Brazilian who came to Austria to study and who stayed for work/marriage, but he's more Austrian than most Austrians now (anti-EU, xenophobe etc.).
Don't get me started on that guy. He's the living embodiment of the "More popist than the pope" argument.
His patronizing tone is what really gets me :D
I find it quite funny that the most antimmigrant people in this thread are Tamas - a Hungarian who lives in the UK and duque - a Portuguese guy who lives in Paris (and from what I remember from our Languish meet in Paris, he is the one who took us out on a wild goose chase to some area populated by culturally distinct Portuguese Parisians - who felt much more alien than the Lebanese restaurant owners Saladin took us to in London).
Quote from: Syt on September 14, 2015, 05:03:00 AM
His patronizing tone is what really gets me :D
Is this some person on Paradox?
Too bad we don't have any Swedes living in Norway.
Marty's Rightous Rage of Rightousness is getting tiresome.
Am I really anti-immigrant? I am not noticing. There are always two sides to every coin and in this case the other side is that help and settlement of these people in Europe must go in an orderly and thought out fashion otherwise it will lead to tragedy and a lot issues for both migrants and EU citizens a few years or decades down the road.
Is it anti-immigrant to point that out?
More news from Hungary after the intense flip-flopping by Angela about illegal migrants
QuoteChaos in Hungary as Budapest rail station closed to migrants
inShare
4 print
© AFP / Attila Kisbenedek | Migrants protest at the Eastern (Keleti) railway station of Budapest on September 1, 2015, during the evacuation of the railway station by local police
Text by FRANCE 24
Latest update : 2015-09-02
There were scenes of chaos in Budapest Tuesday as police evacuated hundreds of migrants attempting to board trains to western Europe from the Hungarian capital's main international rail station, sparking angry protests.
The closure of Keleti station came as new figures showed more than 350,000 have risked their lives so far this year crossing the Mediterranean, revealing the gravity of the crisis facing the continent with the biggest movement of people there since World War II.
Over 234,770 migrants have landed in Greece alone this year, statistics from the Organization for Migration (IOM) revealed, more than the whole Europe-wide figure of 219,000 for all of 2014.
At least 2,600 died on the hazardous journey, drowned or suffocated in dangerous or unseaworthy boats, it added.
'MIGRANTS ALSO ARRIVING IN BAVARIA VIA CZECH REPUBLIC'
Another 114,276 made it to Italy, with most of the other arrivals split between Spain and the island of Malta.
Although there were no clashes between migrants and police in Budapest, several hundred refugees staged an angry demonstration outside the station, an AFP correspondent said.
"Germany! Germany! We want to leave!" chanted the crowd, with some holding their babies up in the air.
The station later re-opened but only for non-migrants.
The move came just 24 hours after the EU's border control procedures were thrown into chaos when police allowed people stuck for days in makeshift refugee camps to leave the Hungarian capital on trains bound for Germany and Austria, despite many not having EU visas.
The decision led the highest number of migrants entering Austria in a single day this year, police confirmed, with 3,650 arriving in Vienna by train on Monday.
Many of the migrants slept at Vienna's Westbahnhof station, hoping to continue on their journey to Germany, which last week eased asylum restrictions for Syrian refugees.
German police said 2,200 asylum-seekers had turned up in Bavaria by Tuesday morning, many having managed to switch trains in Vienna. The southern German state's Interior Minister Joachim Herrmman said they would not be returned to Hungary.
The wave of people fleeing war, persecution and poverty in the Middle East and Africa "is the greatest challenge for Europe in the coming years", Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said Tuesday on a visit to Berlin.
The migrants' plight was brought sharply into focus last week after 71 people, including four children, were found dead in an abandoned truck on an Austrian motorway near the Hungarian border.
So far, police in Hungary and Bulgaria have arrested seven people in connection with the truck tragedy, among them four Bulgarians and one Afghan. The nationalities of the other two were not known.
The grim discovery led to a security crackdown in Austria with huge tailbacks forming along the border on Monday and Tuesday, as officers inspected vehicles in search of people-smugglers and migrants.
'Don't want Muslims'
The escalating situation has divided the 28-member bloc ahead of emergency talks on September 14.
Western European leaders have repeatedly called for greater efforts to help the new arrivals, as countries on its eastern and southern borders warned they were struggling to cope.
Italy on Tuesday said it had rescued 221 migrants crammed into two inflatable boats off the Libyan coast.
But the crisis is rapidly spreading across the continent, with an unprecedented influx of migrants also arriving in Belgium. A makeshift camp has sprung up near the main refugee processing centre in Brussels, where as many as 1,000 queued outside on Monday to apply for asylum.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel earlier warned that the refugee crisis was testing the core ideals of universal rights at the heart of the EU, urging all states to take their fair share of asylum seekers.
She also made veiled criticism of countries like Slovakia which said it would reject migrants from majority Muslim countries.
"If we start saying 'I do not want Muslims'... that cannot be good," Merkel stressed on Monday.
At heart of the crisis lies the question over how to distribute the migrants across the EU and help relieve pressure on so-called "frontline" nations where migrants arrive by sea or land.
Much-flouted EU rules stipulate that refugees should be processed in the first country they reach.
But bloc member Hungary -- like Austria, a country of transit for migrants heading to northern Europe -- says it cannot host record numbers of newcomers, as 50,000 migrants arrived in August.
False Syrian passports
Budapest's right-wing government has criticised Berlin's easing of asylum rules as "(building) up the hopes of illegal immigrants".
Hungary's own response has been to build a razor-wire fence along its border with Serbia to try to keep migrants out.
As vast numbers surge towards Europe with the hope of claiming asylum, a brisk trade in false Syrian passports has emerged, predominantly in Turkey, the EU's Frontex border agency said on Tuesday.
"There are people who are in Turkey now who buy fake Syrian passports because they know Syrians get the right to asylum in the European Union," Fabrice Leggeri told French radio station Europe 1.
"People who use fake Syrian passports often speak Arabic. They may come from North Africa or the Middle East but they have the profile of economic migrants," he said.
Meanwhile, 20,000 people took to the streets of Vienna late Monday in a show of support for migrants, while government officials attended a church service for the 71 refugees found dead last week.
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2015, 05:17:32 AM
Marty's Rightous Rage of Rightousness is getting tiresome.
Am I really anti-immigrant? I am not noticing. There are always two sides to every coin and in this case the other side is that help and settlement of these people in Europe must go in an orderly and thought out fashion otherwise it will lead to tragedy and a lot issues for both migrants and EU citizens a few years or decades down the road.
Is it anti-immigrant to point that out?
Ok, you were co-opted for illustration purposes - I was mainly getting at duque. :P
Quote from: Syt on September 14, 2015, 05:03:00 AM
His patronizing tone is what really gets me :D
I find his faux XIXth century academic style the most grating thing. :P
That and using examples from the Austro-Hungarian empire to explain current events all the time.
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2015, 05:18:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2015, 05:17:32 AM
Marty's Rightous Rage of Rightousness is getting tiresome.
Am I really anti-immigrant? I am not noticing. There are always two sides to every coin and in this case the other side is that help and settlement of these people in Europe must go in an orderly and thought out fashion otherwise it will lead to tragedy and a lot issues for both migrants and EU citizens a few years or decades down the road.
Is it anti-immigrant to point that out?
Ok, you were co-opted for illustration purposes - I was mainly getting at duque. :P
We all remember your very harsh tone about Muslims when you lived in Brussels for a while. But then you can't tell a mosque from a church judging by your visit in Paris so maybe you're just completely clueless, rather than patronising, holier than thou bobo-style and sanctimonious.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 14, 2015, 05:29:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2015, 05:18:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2015, 05:17:32 AM
Marty's Rightous Rage of Rightousness is getting tiresome.
Am I really anti-immigrant? I am not noticing. There are always two sides to every coin and in this case the other side is that help and settlement of these people in Europe must go in an orderly and thought out fashion otherwise it will lead to tragedy and a lot issues for both migrants and EU citizens a few years or decades down the road.
Is it anti-immigrant to point that out?
Ok, you were co-opted for illustration purposes - I was mainly getting at duque. :P
We all remember your very harsh tone about Muslims when you lived in Brussels for a while. But then you can't tell a mosque from a church judging by your visit in Paris so maybe you're just completely clueless, rather than patronising, holier than thou bobo-style and sanctimonious.
Well, duh.
Meanwhile, pan-European spirit is triumphing everywhere: since Austria is moving the army to the Hungarian border, the Hungarian authorities have dumped thousands of migrants on the border with Austria by buses, not caring about registration, just letting them go where they please.
And just to see that the amount of migrants keep growing: between start of the day and mid-day, 5353 new refugees have been registered by the Hungarian authorities. And of course these are the guys who either seek out the police on the border, or get caught by them. Those who slip by without wanting to register are not counted.
Quote from: Zanza on September 13, 2015, 12:26:57 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 13, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
@Zanza, you made the mistake of trying to talk to Andrelvis - he's an arrogant douchebag. He's a Brazilian who came to Austria to study and who stayed for work/marriage, but he's more Austrian than most Austrians now (anti-EU, xenophobe etc.).
Yes, I know. Not sure why I even took his bait. Fuck him.
Out of curiosity/masochism, which thread was that?
Zizek on the crisis. I have to say, while I may not agree with everything he says, he is as always thought provoking and thinking outside the box:
Quote
The Non-Existence of Norway
Slavoj Žižek on the refugee crisis
The flow of refugees from Africa and the Middle East into Western Europe has provoked a set of reactions strikingly similar to those we display on learning we have a terminal illness, according to the schema described by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross in her classic study On Death and Dying. First there is denial: 'It's not so serious, let's just ignore it' (we don't hear much of this any longer). Then there is anger – how can this happen to me? – which explodes when denial is no longer plausible: 'Refugees are a threat to our way of life; Muslim fundamentalists are hiding among them; they have to be stopped!' There is bargaining: 'OK, let's decide on quotas; let them have refugee camps in their own countries.' There is depression: 'We are lost, Europe is turning into Europastan!' What we haven't yet seen is Kübler-Ross's fifth stage, acceptance, which in this case would involve the drawing up of an all-European plan to deal with the refugees.
What should be done? Public opinion is sharply divided. Left liberals express their outrage that Europe is allowing thousands to drown in the Mediterranean: Europe, they say, should show solidarity and throw open its doors. Anti-immigrant populists say we need to protect our way of life: foreigners should solve their own problems. Both solutions sound bad, but which is worse? To paraphrase Stalin, they are both worse. The greatest hypocrites are those who call for open borders. They know very well this will never happen: it would instantly trigger a populist revolt in Europe. They play the beautiful soul, superior to the corrupted world while continuing to get along in it. The anti-immigrant populist also knows very well that, left to themselves, people in Africa and the Middle East will not succeed in solving their own problems and changing their societies. Why not? Because we in Western Europe are preventing them from doing so. It was Western intervention in Libya that threw the country into chaos. It was the US attack on Iraq that created the conditions for the rise of Islamic State. The ongoing civil war in the Central African Republic between the Christian south and the Muslim north is not just an explosion of ethnic hatred, it was triggered by the discovery of oil in the north: France and China are fighting for the control of resources through their proxies. It was a global hunger for minerals, including coltan, cobalt, diamonds and copper, that abetted the 'warlordism' in the Democratic Republic of the Congo in the 1990s and early 2000s.
If we really want to stem the flow of refugees, then, it is crucial to recognise that most of them come from 'failed states', where public authority is more or less inoperative: Syria, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, DRC and so on. This disintegration of state power is not a local phenomenon but a result of international politics and the global economic system, in some cases – like Libya and Iraq – a direct outcome of Western intervention. (One should also note that the 'failed states' of the Middle East were condemned to failure by the boundaries drawn up during the First World War by Britain and France.)
It has not escaped notice that the wealthiest countries in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the Emirates, Qatar) have been much less open to refugees than the not so rich (Turkey, Egypt, Iran etc). Saudi Arabia has even returned 'Muslim' refugees to Somalia. Is this because Saudi Arabia is a fundamentalist theocracy which cannot tolerate foreign intruders? Yes, but Saudi Arabia's dependence on oil revenues makes it a fully integrated economic partner of the West. There should be serious international pressure on Saudi Arabia (and Kuwait and Qatar and the Emirates) to accept a large contingent of the refugees, especially since, by supporting the anti-Assad rebels, the Saudis bear a measure of responsibility for the current situation in Syria.
New forms of slavery are the hallmark of these wealthy countries: millions of immigrant workers on the Arabian peninsula are deprived of elementary civil rights and freedoms; in Asia, millions of workers live in sweatshops organised like concentration camps. But there are examples closer to home. On 1 December 2013 a Chinese-owned clothing factory in Prato, near Florence, burned down, killing seven workers trapped in an improvised cardboard dormitory. 'No one can say they are surprised at this,' Roberto Pistonina, a local trade unionist, remarked, 'because everyone has known for years that, in the area between Florence and Prato, hundreds if not thousands of people are living and working in conditions of near slavery.' There are more than four thousand Chinese-owned businesses in Prato, and thousands of Chinese immigrants are believed to be living in the city illegally, working as many as 16 hours a day for a network of workshops and wholesalers.
The new slavery is not confined to the suburbs of Shanghai, or Dubai, or Qatar. It is in our midst; we just don't see it, or pretend not to see it. Sweated labour is a structural necessity of today's global capitalism. Many of the refugees entering Europe will become part of its growing precarious workforce, in many cases at the expense of local workers, who react to the threat by joining the latest wave of anti-immigrant populism.
In escaping their war-torn homelands, the refugees are possessed by a dream. Refugees arriving in southern Italy do not want to stay there: many of them are trying to get to Scandinavia. The thousands of migrants in Calais are not satisfied with France: they are ready to risk their lives to enter the UK. Tens of thousands of refugees in Balkan countries are desperate to get to Germany. They assert their dreams as their unconditional right, and demand from the European authorities not only proper food and medical care but also transportation to the destination of their choice. There is something enigmatically utopian in this demand: as if it were the duty of Europe to realise their dreams – dreams which, incidentally, are out of reach of most Europeans (surely a good number of Southern and Eastern Europeans would prefer to live in Norway too?). It is precisely when people find themselves in poverty, distress and danger – when we'd expect them to settle for a minimum of safety and wellbeing – that their utopianism becomes most intransigent. But the hard truth to be faced by the refugees is that 'there is no Norway,' even in Norway.
We must abandon the notion that it is inherently racist or proto-fascist for host populations to talk of protecting their 'way of life'. If we don't, the way will be clear for the forward march of anti-immigration sentiment in Europe whose latest manifestation is in Sweden, where according to the latest polling the anti-immigrant Sweden Democrats have overtaken the Social Democrats as the country's most popular party. The standard left-liberal line on this is an arrogant moralism: the moment we give any credence to the idea of 'protecting our way of life', we compromise our position, since we're merely proposing a more modest version of what anti-immigrant populists openly advocate. And this is indeed the cautious approach that centrist parties have adopted in recent years. They reject the open racism of anti-immigrant populists, but at the same time profess that they 'understand the concerns' of ordinary people, and so enact a more 'rational' anti-immigration policy.
We should nevertheless reject the left-liberal attitude. The complaints that moralise the situation – 'Europe is indifferent to the suffering of others' etc – are merely the obverse of anti-immigrant brutality. They share the presupposition, which is in no way self-evident, that the defence of one's own way of life is incompatible with ethical universalism. We should avoid getting trapped in the liberal self-interrogation, 'How much tolerance can we afford?' Should we tolerate migrants who prevent their children going to state schools; who force their women to dress and behave in a certain way; who arrange their children's marriages; who discriminate against homosexuals? We can never be tolerant enough, or we are always already too tolerant. The only way to break this deadlock is to move beyond mere tolerance: we should offer others not just our respect, but the prospect of joining them in a common struggle, since our problems today are problems we share.
Refugees are the price we pay for a globalised economy in which commodities – but not people – are permitted to circulate freely. The idea of porous borders, of being inundated by foreigners, is immanent to global capitalism. The migrations in Europe are not unique. In South Africa, more than a million refugees from neighbouring states came under attack in April from the local poor for stealing their jobs. There will be more of these stories, caused not only by armed conflict but also by economic crises, natural disasters, climate change and so on. There was a moment, in the wake of the Fukushima nuclear disaster, when the Japanese authorities were preparing to evacuate the entire Tokyo area – more than twenty million people. If that had happened, where would they have gone? Should they have been given a piece of land to develop in Japan, or been dispersed around the world? What if climate change makes northern Siberia more habitable and appropriate for agriculture, while large parts of sub-Saharan Africa become too dry to support a large population? How will the redistribution of people be organised? When events of this kind happened in the past, the social transformations were wild and spontaneous, accompanied by violence and destruction.
Humankind should get ready to live in a more 'plastic' and nomadic way. One thing is clear: national sovereignty will have to be radically redefined and new methods of global co-operation and decision-making devised. First, in the present moment, Europe must reassert its commitment to provide for the dignified treatment of the refugees. There should be no compromise here: large migrations are our future, and the only alternative to such a commitment is renewed barbarism (what some call a 'clash of civilisations').
Second, as a necessary consequence of this commitment, Europe should impose clear rules and regulations. Control of the stream of refugees should be enforced through an administrative network encompassing all of the members of the European Union (to prevent local barbarisms like those of the authorities in Hungary or Slovakia). Refugees should be assured of their safety, but it should also be made clear to them that they must accept the destination allocated to them by European authorities, and that they will have to respect the laws and social norms of European states: no tolerance of religious, sexist or ethnic violence; no right to impose on others one's own religion or way of life; respect for every individual's freedom to abandon his or her communal customs, etc. If a woman chooses to cover her face, her choice must be respected; if she chooses not to cover her face, her freedom not to do so must be guaranteed. Such rules privilege the Western European way of life, but that is the price to be paid for European hospitality. These rules should be clearly stated and enforced, by repressive measures – against foreign fundamentalists as well as against our own racists – where necessary.
Third, a new kind of international military and economic intervention will have to be invented – a kind of intervention that avoids the neocolonial traps of the recent past. The cases of Iraq, Syria and Libya demonstrate how the wrong sort of intervention (in Iraq and Libya) as well as non-intervention (in Syria, where, beneath the appearance of non-intervention, external powers such as Russia and Saudi Arabia are deeply involved) end up in the same deadlock.
Fourth, most important and most difficult of all, there is a need for radical economic change which would abolish the conditions that create refugees. Without a transformation in the workings of global capitalism, non-European refugees will soon be joined by migrants from Greece and other countries within the Union. When I was young, such an organised attempt at regulation was called communism. Maybe we should reinvent it. Maybe this is, in the long term, the only solution.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 14, 2015, 05:29:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2015, 05:18:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2015, 05:17:32 AM
Marty's Rightous Rage of Rightousness is getting tiresome.
Am I really anti-immigrant? I am not noticing. There are always two sides to every coin and in this case the other side is that help and settlement of these people in Europe must go in an orderly and thought out fashion otherwise it will lead to tragedy and a lot issues for both migrants and EU citizens a few years or decades down the road.
Is it anti-immigrant to point that out?
Ok, you were co-opted for illustration purposes - I was mainly getting at duque. :P
We all remember your very harsh tone about Muslims when you lived in Brussels for a while. But then you can't tell a mosque from a church judging by your visit in Paris so maybe you're just completely clueless, rather than patronising, holier than thou bobo-style and sanctimonious.
I have always been (and still am) very critical of religious fundamentalism, and Muslim tendency towards it (which is greater than among European Christians, on average) but I also think that we cannot ignore the refugees and we have to treat them with dignity. I think arguing that those two views are incompatible is the trap that Zizek is talking about - I fully subscribe to his first and second points, when he is talking about solutions (the two other points are possibly more complex and require more thought - but these two are pretty straightforward and can be implemented very quickly).
P.S. not sure what's the part about not being able to "tell a mosque from a church" was about, though. Is this something figurative or are you referring to something specific?
If there was a swap where the virtue-signalling Gutmenschen were airdropped into Raqqa and the Islamic horde taken in their stead we could work something out. :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2015, 07:05:27 AM
P.S. not sure what's the part about not being able to "tell a mosque from a church" was about, though. Is this something figurative or are you referring to something specific?
Both.
How Hungary feeds its refugees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=43&v=bRbmFYYbcyw
UNHCR says Hungary is now clearing out its camps and sends all refugees coming from Serbia straight to the Austrian border without registration.
Quote from: Syt on September 14, 2015, 08:04:19 AM
UNHCR says Hungary is now clearing out its camps and sends all refugees coming from Serbia straight to the Austrian border without registration.
Yes, which is what the refugees want so surely Marty must approve.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 14, 2015, 04:40:41 AM
Are we being a bit too harsh on the Europeans? I think they are extremely generous and nice. They are under no obligation to help but they are helping. They have done a lot but they don't seem to get much gratitude. All the media is saying is they are callous and not going enough.
They have little choice in the matter. Their security services are over whelmed, and they still live in by laws.
State of emergency due to mass migration will probably be declared in Hungary tomorrow as new law comes into effect.
Also, you can tell its a party of lawyers running the country. Here is how it will go for the poor sods trying to enter:
-Crossing the border outside of a border crossing will be a crime (it was a felony earlier IIRC)
-You must apply for asylum at the border crossings
-They will ask the applicant if he/she has applied for asylum in Serbia already
-If the answer is no, their request is automatically rejected and they are deported back to Serbia
-If the answer is yes, well, the government has declared Serbia to be a safe country, so a yes to this means automatic rejection of the asylum request and being deported back to Serbia.
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2015, 11:51:06 AM
State of emergency due to mass migration will probably be declared in Hungary tomorrow as new law comes into effect.
Also, you can tell its a party of lawyers running the country. Here is how it will go for the poor sods trying to enter:
-Crossing the border outside of a border crossing will be a crime (it was a felony earlier IIRC)
-You must apply for asylum at the border crossings
-They will ask the applicant if he/she has applied for asylum in Serbia already
-If the answer is no, their request is automatically rejected and they are deported back to Serbia
-If the answer is yes, well, the government has declared Serbia to be a safe country, so a yes to this means automatic rejection of the asylum request and being deported back to Serbia.
So is the point that any asylum application will be automatically rejected on formal grounds? That sounds like something violating the spirit of UN treaties, at the very least.
They should rename those border crossings as deportation centers, then. Nobody is going to be able to get through with those requiriments. What is the point of asking a question if the end result is the same wether you answer yes or no?
Quote from: The Larch on September 14, 2015, 12:06:31 PM
They should rename those border crossings as deportation centers, then. Nobody is going to be able to get through with those requiriments. What is the point of asking a question if the end result is the same wether you answer yes or no?
What will happen is simple: the migrants will avoid the border crossings and pass elsewhere that isn't guarded. Like the Mexicans do in the US.
And this is also why any European quotas or Schengen suspension will fail: the migrants will move where they want regardless, and the media will scream bloody murder at any attempt to deport them.
As an update, Sigmar Gabriel (SPD leader, Germany's vice-chancellor) just revised upwards the number of asylum seekers expected by the country from 800,000 to 1,000,000. In 2015 alone.
http://www.spd.de/aktuelles/130386/20150914_sg_mitgliederbrief.html (http://www.spd.de/aktuelles/130386/20150914_sg_mitgliederbrief.html)
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 14, 2015, 12:11:45 PM
What will happen is simple: the migrants will avoid the border crossings and pass elsewhere that isn't guarded. Like the Mexicans do in the US.
No, they won't, because that would be a crime. :P
What is the difference between a crime and a felony in Hungary?
Quote from: Maximus on September 14, 2015, 01:03:41 PM
What is the difference between a crime and a felony in Hungary?
I think Tamas may be confusing felony with a misdemeanour.
If Hungarian law is anything like Polish law (they should be as probably all are based on French, German and Austrian laws) then, Tamas, there are misdemeanours (aka petty offenses) and crimes, with the most serious crimes being considered felonies (so, jaywalking is a misdemeanour, bribery and murder are probably crimes, whilst murder is a felony as well).
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2015, 01:34:19 PM
Quote from: Maximus on September 14, 2015, 01:03:41 PM
What is the difference between a crime and a felony in Hungary?
I think Tamas may be confusing felony with a misdemeanour.
Yes :blush:
By they way my theory for the hysteric reaction of the Hungarian and polish public to the migrants is that if you think about it: these countries have had a lot of turmoil in their last couple of generations. Still they are quite uncertain places to live in, in many ways.
There have been one, and just one single stable point: a boring, but simple and comfortable single-culture environment in their countries.
now people fear that this one thing they felt was under control is being removed, or made uncertain and unpredictable.
Incidentally, I love the fact that the German chancellor is named Angela and her deputy is named Sigmar Gabriel.
Does Germany have: the Mandate of Heaven?
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2015, 01:41:26 PM
By they way my theory for the hysteric reaction of the Hungarian and polish public to the migrants is that if you think about it: these countries have had a lot of turmoil in their last couple of generations. Still they are quite uncertain places to live in, in many ways.
There have been one, and just one single stable point: a boring, but simple and comfortable single-culture environment in their countries.
now people fear that this one thing they felt was under control is being removed, or made uncertain and unpredictable.
I think they are culturally nouveau riche - such people are the worst when it comes to helping others. People who have little or nothing are willing to help because they have nothing to lose; people who are rich are willing to help because they are secure in what they have. It's the nouveau riche who live under a false impression that they are the only ones to credit for what they gained (while it is quite untrue) are most stingy and mean.
No
Serbia has announced that it will not accept any refugees deported back from Hungary and that it will protect its border with troops if necessary.
Quote from: Syt on September 14, 2015, 11:36:47 PM
Serbia has announced that it will not accept any refugees deported back from Hungary and that it will protect its border with troops if necessary.
Is this how tragedies unfold? One misstep at a time.
Well, Hungary has closed its border with Serbia for any refugees, and reportedly it's quiet there, so this may not be relevant, anyways.
While I think an honest discussion can be had about whether Hungary did the right thing in closing its borders and kicking out all refugees, Orban's rhetoric remains ... well, he told the border police that with guarding the border they were protecting the Western Values of Europe and the Cultural Integrity of Hungary.
It will in the end fall on the US.
Hungary reports that it's arrested 16 people last night who crossed the border illegally.
Oh no...
This is the beginning of the end...
of this post.
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 12:33:26 AM
Well, Hungary has closed its border with Serbia for any refugees, and reportedly it's quiet there, so this may not be relevant, anyways.
Many of the refugees have smartphones and will have known this. There are also trains to Vienna from Zagreb iirc.
Quote from: Liep on September 15, 2015, 03:36:41 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 12:33:26 AM
Well, Hungary has closed its border with Serbia for any refugees, and reportedly it's quiet there, so this may not be relevant, anyways.
Many of the refugees have smartphones and will have known this. There are also trains to Vienna from Zagreb iirc.
Yeah I think if this border closing at Serbia will be effective (and the alternative is a series of tragedies as whole families will be arrested and there would be masses of people trying to break through soldiers armed with AKs), it will be effective in channeling the migrant wave toward Croatia. Then they just might turn to the completely unguarded Croatian-Hungarian border and Hungary will be back to square one except having to control a larger border.
In some ways I would not mind Orban's hardline solution working, but as Syt said, it would be horrible to have him succeed while doing this absolutely toxic and hateful rhetoric
Well the relative quiet at the main border crossing with Serbia is quickly ending.
First this morning there has been 200-300 people starting a hunger strike demanding to be let in, but in a matter of hours there is now a crowd of app. 1500, reporters saying the police did not expect that much and now hurriedly trying to reinforce the barbed wire fence.
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2015, 02:00:48 PM
No
No what? Do you disagree with what I said? The somewhat succesful faux "self-made-men" (who fail to recognise how the fact that they live outside of a conflict zone in a stable society has contributed immensely to them having a relatively good job and middle class life success) are usually the worst when it comes to helping others - because they see any attempt to get taxed as the government "stealing their money". It's the most morally degenerate group.
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 05:16:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2015, 02:00:48 PM
No
No what? Do you disagree with what I said? The somewhat succesful faux "self-made-men" (who fail to recognise how the fact that they live outside of a conflict zone in a stable society has contributed immensely to them having a relatively good job and middle class life success) are usually the worst when it comes to helping others - because they see any attempt to get taxed as the government "stealing their money". It's the most morally degenerate group.
I think this experience comes directly from the people you associate with. Feeling "self-made" is pretty far off from average East European sentiment.
I could be wrong but IIRC Serbia is not letting people back from the Hungarian border crossing. Already there are thousands stuck in no man's land, going restless.
Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, migrants apparently emergency-stopped a train to Berlin several times, because they felt like leaving at different spots than the capital itself.
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 12:33:26 AM
Well, Hungary has closed its border with Serbia for any refugees, and reportedly it's quiet there, so this may not be relevant, anyways.
While I think an honest discussion can be had about whether Hungary did the right thing in closing its borders and kicking out all refugees, Orban's rhetoric remains ... well, he told the border police that with guarding the border they were protecting the Western Values of Europe and the Cultural Integrity of Hungary.
Well that should be taken with a grain of salt, not so long ago Orban said [some very un-christian countries such as] China and Turkey were role models for his régime. :D
Orban's self-contradicting rhetoric is but a local nuisance whereas Merkel's irresponsible and self-contradicting too rhetoric has exacerbated a major crisis, flip-flopping not withstanding. Most of the time, she waits outs doing nothing or very little, very late such as in the Euro crisis, but when she acts all of a sudden it's completely irrational cf. the German exit of nuclear energy.
Now, the countries against illegal migrants quotas are even threatened of withdrawal of EU funds.
QuoteGermany said Tuesday it approves of using EU aid funds to pressure member states into accepting binding quotas to relocate 120,000 refugees, after several eastern countries refused the migrant distribution proposal.
"The negotiations situation is such that nothing happens to countries which refuse. We need to talk about ways of exerting pressure. These are often countries that receive a lot of structural funds from the European Union," German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere told television network ZDF.
European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker "has suggested that we should look at whether these countries should get less structural funds, which I agree with," he added.
Hopes of a unanimous deal on distributing refugees across the bloc collapsed in the face of opposition from Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Romania at the crisis meeting of interior ministers in Brussels on Monday.
Germany, which is expecting to receive a million asylum-seekers this year, has been pushing for other European countries to take their fair share of refugees.
In the face of the surge in migrant numbers, Berlin took the drastic measure of reinstating border controls on Sunday to slow the influx.
http://www.expatica.com/de/news/country-news/Berlin-backs-cutting-EU-funds-to-states-that-refuse-refugee-quotas_507398.html (http://www.expatica.com/de/news/country-news/Berlin-backs-cutting-EU-funds-to-states-that-refuse-refugee-quotas_507398.html)
Five years ago, Merkel said the multicultural approach had failed. Did she inspire Orban then?
QuoteAttempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.
She said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work, and immigrants needed to do more to integrate - including learning German.
The comments come amid rising anti-immigration feeling in Germany.
A recent survey suggested more than 30% of people believed the country was "overrun by foreigners".
The study - by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think-tank - also showed that roughly the same number thought that some 16 million of Germany's immigrants or people with foreign origins had come to the country for its social benefits.
Foreign workers
Mrs Merkel told a gathering of younger members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party on Saturday that at "the beginning of the 60s our country called the foreign workers to come to Germany and now they live in our country."
She added: "We kidded ourselves a while, we said: 'They won't stay, sometime they will be gone', but this isn't reality."
Analysis
By Stephen EvansBBC News, Berlin
Angela Merkel took pains to say immigrants are welcome.
The words "utterly failed" are very strong, but there are also nuanced messages about the usefulness of immigrants in a country that needs skilled labour.
She is pitching it very carefully, with important elections coming up in the spring.
The tone is very important.
The chancellor is basically saying that Germany needs immigrants but immigrants need to do something to get into the society.
Germany's charged immigration debate
"And of course, the approach [to build] a multicultural [society] and to live side-by-side and to enjoy each other... has failed, utterly failed."
In her speech in Potsdam, however, the chancellor made clear that immigrants were welcome in Germany.
She specifically referred to recent comments by German President Christian Wulff who said that Islam was "part of Germany", like Christianity and Judaism.
Mrs Merkel said: "We should not be a country either which gives the impression to the outside world that those who don't speak German immediately or who were not raised speaking German are not welcome here."
Mounting debate
There has been intense debate about multiculturalism in Germany in recent months.
Correspondents say Mrs Merkel faces pressure from within her CDU and its allies to take a tougher stance and require immigrants to do more to adapt to German society.
Earlier this week, Horst Seehofer, the leader of the CDU's Bavarian sister party, the CSU, said it was "obvious that immigrants from different cultures like Turkey and Arab countries, all in all, find it harder" to integrate.
Germany's president says Muslims belong in Germany
Your Say: Does multiculturalism work?
"'Multikulti' is dead," Mr Seehofer said.
Earlier this month the chancellor held talks with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in which the two leaders pledged to do more to improve the often poor integration record of Germany's estimated 2.5 million-strong Turkish community.
The debate first heated up in August when Thilo Sarrazin, a senior official at Germany's central bank, said that "no immigrant group other than Muslims is so strongly connected with claims on the welfare state and crime". Mr Sarrazin has since resigned.
Such recent strong anti-immigration feelings from mainstream politicians come amid an anger in Germany about high unemployment, even if the economy is growing faster than those of its rivals, our correspondent says.
He adds that there also seems to be a new strident tone in the country, perhaps leading to less reticence about no-go-areas of the past.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451)
Back then the Guardian said
QuoteThe German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has courted growing anti-immigrant opinion in Germany by claiming the country's attempts to create a multicultural society have "utterly failed".
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed)
The hashtag #Oktoberfestung (October Fortress) keeps popping up - cynics say that the Bavarian state has pressured the federal government to close the borders so that the October Fest can happen undisturbed.
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 06:52:29 AM
The hashtag #Oktoberfestung (October Fortress) keeps popping up - cynics say that the Bavarian state has pressured the federal government to close the borders so that the October Fest can happen undisturbed.
Tasteful.
Quote from: Tamas on September 15, 2015, 05:19:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 05:16:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2015, 02:00:48 PM
No
No what? Do you disagree with what I said? The somewhat succesful faux "self-made-men" (who fail to recognise how the fact that they live outside of a conflict zone in a stable society has contributed immensely to them having a relatively good job and middle class life success) are usually the worst when it comes to helping others - because they see any attempt to get taxed as the government "stealing their money". It's the most morally degenerate group.
I think this experience comes directly from the people you associate with. Feeling "self-made" is pretty far off from average East European sentiment.
Don't know about Hungary, or other CEE countries I guess (I assumed they are similar to Poland), but in Poland it is a very popular sentiment.
@Norgy
The head of CSU and ruler in Bavaria, Horst Seehofer said a few days ago, "I have requested today that we take precautions for the 14 days of the October Fest, so that Munich doesn't remain the main hub that it currently is."
His interior minister added that bypassing Munich was necessary, because, "especially refugees from Muslim countries aren't used to encounter severely drunk people in public."
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 07:01:07 AM
@Norgy
The head of CSU and ruler in Bavaria, Horst Seehofer said a few days ago, "I have requested today that we take precautions for the 14 days of the October Fest, so that Munich doesn't remain the main hub that it currently is."
His interior minister added that bypassing Munich was necessary, because, "especially refugees from Muslim countries aren't used to encounter severely drunk people in public."
"Please stop dying for two weeks so we may stuff our faces with pig offal".
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 07:03:46 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 07:01:07 AM
@Norgy
The head of CSU and ruler in Bavaria, Horst Seehofer said a few days ago, "I have requested today that we take precautions for the 14 days of the October Fest, so that Munich doesn't remain the main hub that it currently is."
His interior minister added that bypassing Munich was necessary, because, "especially refugees from Muslim countries aren't used to encounter severely drunk people in public."
"Please stop dying for two weeks so we may stuff our faces with pig offal".
Sad but true.
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 07:03:46 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 07:01:07 AM
@Norgy
The head of CSU and ruler in Bavaria, Horst Seehofer said a few days ago, "I have requested today that we take precautions for the 14 days of the October Fest, so that Munich doesn't remain the main hub that it currently is."
His interior minister added that bypassing Munich was necessary, because, "especially refugees from Muslim countries aren't used to encounter severely drunk people in public."
"Please stop dying for two weeks so we may stuff our faces with pig offal".
It's not the only custom they're not used to, but don't worry local authorities in Bavaria have been taking the right steps well in advance: :)
QuoteA school in Bavaria has sent a letter home to parents warning them not to let their daughters wear revealing blouses or short skirts, because emergency accommodation for refugees has been set up next to the gym.
A week ago emergency accommodation for 200 Syrian refugees was erected right next to the gym of Wilhelm-Diess-Gymnasium in Pocking, Bavaria, Die Welt reports.
The gym has been closed as a result, and PE lessons have been relocated to a nearby primary school, but the school is still worried about the refugees interacting with students.
So worried in fact that the headteacher recently sent out a letter to parents to give reassurance about extra security measures.
"For the refugees, access to the school gardens and buildings is strictly forbidden. The same goes for the school grounds during the day. The number of teachers on duty during breaks has been increased," read the letter from headteacher Martin Thalhammer.
The letter goes on to give students instructions on how to deal with the situation:
"The Syrian citizens are mainly Muslims and speak Arabic. The refugees are marked by their own culture. Because our school is directly next to where they are staying, modest clothing should be adhered to, in order to avoid discrepancies. Revealing tops or blouses, short shorts or miniskirts could lead to misunderstandings."
The letter has not been met favourably by some parents, but a local politician, who did not want to be named, told Die Welt the move was "absolutely necessary".
"When Muslim teenage boys go to open air swimming pools, they are overwhelmed when they see girls in bikinis," he said.
"These boys, who come from a culture where for women it is frowned upon to show naked skin, follow girls and bother them without realizing. Obviously this is concerning for us," he continued.
The move by the school has caused a lot of discussion, and Thalhammer has received queries from all over the media, reports the Passauer Neue Presse.
"There have never been uniform rules at this school and there never will be." He said.
"It is my duty to look after the children. Therefore I wanted to inform everyone about what is going on at school and what the gym is being used for."
"It was my responsibility to remind everyone that two cultures are coming together here," he continued.
http://www.thelocal.de/20150626/refugee-school-calls-for-uniform-modesty (http://www.thelocal.de/20150626/refugee-school-calls-for-uniform-modesty)
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article143128131/Miniroecke-koennten-zu-Missverstaendnissen-fuehren.html (http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article143128131/Miniroecke-koennten-zu-Missverstaendnissen-fuehren.html)
What is your point in this story, Duque? That in Bavaria even leftists are retarded? :)
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 07:35:43 AM
What is your point in this story, Duque? That in Bavaria even leftists are retarded? :)
1. it is an idiotic letter, yes
2. You have a teenage daughter who is going to spend a whole day in an area choke full of men straight out of Syria, Afghanistan, and other muslim countries. She wants to head out in a miniskirt.
A) You let her go B) you think "it is ugly prejudice but why take the 1% risk of some bad experience happening to her?" and tell her to dress more modest for the time being
?
This handling of this crisis has helped change my view of the Hungarian state; now not sure it was sensible to allowed them into the EU and NATO.
Quote from: Tamas on September 15, 2015, 07:40:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 07:35:43 AM
What is your point in this story, Duque? That in Bavaria even leftists are retarded? :)
1. it is an idiotic letter, yes
2. You have a teenage daughter who is going to spend a whole day in an area choke full of men straight out of Syria, Afghanistan, and other muslim countries. She wants to head out in a miniskirt.
A) You let her go B) you think "it is ugly prejudice but why take the 1% risk of some bad experience happening to her?" and tell her to dress more modest for the time being
?
Again, I am not sure what the point of this story is - it does not provide any independent reporting that attempts to assess the situation - it simply quotes some idiotic letter from the school principal and follows up on it with an anonymous opinion of a "local politician". There is absolutely no credibility to whatever is being reported, beyond the fact that a letter like this was sent.
So I repeat my question - what's the story and what (if anything) should we be discussing after reading this?
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 07:35:43 AM
What is your point in this story, Duque? That in Bavaria even leftists are retarded? :)
Leftists in Bavaria? No such a thing! CSU Land! Or so the leftists in the rest of Germany say. One-party state, somewhat democratic, etc..
My point? The double standard between people complaining with some merit about "selfish" steps taken to ensure the Oktober fest goes as planned, and the coward blind eye turned to PC compromises of principles.
I see both moves as idiotic - but it seems to me that both come from the same source, i.e. stupid Bavarian authorities (which, according to you, are not even leftist). So, once again, not sure what the point is. :huh:
Maybe it's language barrier, but your posts seem increasingly incoherent.
You're the one claiming the principal who wrote the letter is a leftist, not me. As for coherence, your famous analogies speak in your behalf.
Meanwhile, Orbán wants to build another border fence along the Romanian border - Romania being part of the EU but not of Schengen.
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 08:27:21 AM
Meanwhile, Orbán wants to build another border fence along the Romanian border - Romania being part of the EU but not of Schengen.
Maybe if we don't say anything they're continue to build fences all around Hungary. And then only the bright ones will find a way to get out of their own country? :unsure:
Quote from: mongers on September 15, 2015, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 08:27:21 AM
Meanwhile, Orbán wants to build another border fence along the Romanian border - Romania being part of the EU but not of Schengen.
Maybe if we don't say anything they're continue to build fences all around Hungary. And then only the bright ones will find a way to get out of their own country? :unsure:
I do not like your general anti-Magyar attitude :mad: You would welcome everyone from a country that managed to tear itself apart in civil war, but would prefer Hungarians to be fenced in?!
Quote from: Tamas on September 15, 2015, 08:40:51 AM
Quote from: mongers on September 15, 2015, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 08:27:21 AM
Meanwhile, Orbán wants to build another border fence along the Romanian border - Romania being part of the EU but not of Schengen.
Maybe if we don't say anything they're continue to build fences all around Hungary. And then only the bright ones will find a way to get out of their own country? :unsure:
I do not like your general anti-Magyar attitude :mad: You would welcome everyone from a country that managed to tear itself apart in civil war, but would prefer Hungarians to be fenced in?!
As my post alluded to, only the stupid ones, presumably those more likely to support their increasingly loathsome government.
Quote from: Tamas on September 15, 2015, 07:40:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 07:35:43 AM
What is your point in this story, Duque? That in Bavaria even leftists are retarded? :)
1. it is an idiotic letter, yes
2. You have a teenage daughter who is going to spend a whole day in an area choke full of men straight out of Syria, Afghanistan, and other muslim countries. She wants to head out in a miniskirt.
A) You let her go B) you think "it is ugly prejudice but why take the 1% risk of some bad experience happening to her?" and tell her to dress more modest for the time being
?
3. Accept only those among these so-called refugees who are willing to follow the legal procedure and put aside their prejudices, and expel those who claim to accept them and then renege later on. This may mean a disproportionate amount of Christians among them, so the left might not so much interested. I hope Yezidis get in too since they are even more vulnerable.
Dress more modestly for the time being has been de facto norm in the areas with lots of muslim immigrants in Europe, cf. that video of the harassed Belgian student shot in Brussels, and it does not help. Any skirt is seen as a provocation, and only trousers or tracksuits (!) are tolerated, at best.
Colour me highly skeptical on this one.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 15, 2015, 07:48:26 AM
Leftists in Bavaria? No such a thing! CSU Land! Or so the leftists in the rest of Germany say. One-party state, somewhat democratic, etc..
Educators tend to be disproportionately leftist compared to the general population.
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 08:27:21 AM
Meanwhile, Orbán wants to build another border fence along the Romanian border - Romania being part of the EU but not of Schengen.
This could be in the long-established tradition of internal balkanic/EE bickering, still going on, despite Slovakia and Hungary agreeing on something for once. Kind of a cheap shot, but then it's the region.
Quote from: mongers on September 15, 2015, 07:41:24 AM
This handling of this crisis has helped change my view of the Hungarian state; now not sure it was sensible to allowed them into the EU and NATO.
Orban was not in charge in 2004.
Quote from: Tamas on September 15, 2015, 08:40:51 AM
Quote from: mongers on September 15, 2015, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 08:27:21 AM
Meanwhile, Orbán wants to build another border fence along the Romanian border - Romania being part of the EU but not of Schengen.
Maybe if we don't say anything they're continue to build fences all around Hungary. And then only the bright ones will find a way to get out of their own country? :unsure:
I do not like your general anti-Magyar attitude :mad: You would welcome everyone from a country that managed to tear itself apart in civil war, but would prefer Hungarians to be fenced in?!
Well, if we wanted to stop barbaric culturally foreign non-European peoples migrating to our areas and settling in, we should have thought about it when Magyars invaded Pannonia - now the genie is out of the bottle.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 15, 2015, 08:45:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 15, 2015, 07:40:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 07:35:43 AM
What is your point in this story, Duque? That in Bavaria even leftists are retarded? :)
1. it is an idiotic letter, yes
2. You have a teenage daughter who is going to spend a whole day in an area choke full of men straight out of Syria, Afghanistan, and other muslim countries. She wants to head out in a miniskirt.
A) You let her go B) you think "it is ugly prejudice but why take the 1% risk of some bad experience happening to her?" and tell her to dress more modest for the time being
?
3. Accept only those among these so-called refugees who are willing to follow the legal procedure and put aside their prejudices, and expel those who claim to accept them and then renege later on. This may mean a disproportionate amount of Christians among them, so the left might not so much interested. I hope Yezidis get in too since they are even more vulnerable.
Dress more modestly for the time being has been de facto norm in the areas with lots of muslim immigrants in Europe, cf. that video of the harassed Belgian student shot in Brussels, and it does not help. Any skirt is seen as a provocation, and only trousers or tracksuits (!) are tolerated, at best.
Colour me highly skeptical on this one.
You are still missing the point. We do not know whether the letter was just an overreaction or if there really is a problem of students being harassed and assaulted by the refugees. The article fails to establish anything other than the fact that some school principal somewhere wrote a racist letter.
Edit: And the fact that so far a large number of stories claiming that "refugees are barbarians!!!1" have been debunked as exaggerations at best and bold faced lies at worst makes me skeptical about any reports like this.
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 09:45:52 AM
Well, if we wanted to stop barbaric culturally foreign non-European peoples migrating to our areas and settling in, we should have thought about it when Magyars invaded Pannonia - now the genie is out of the bottle.
The whole continent should have been walled off in the year 500. What you mean 'our areas' Slavic heathen :mad:
Incidentally, I read today that the Syrian refugees we are getting are actually more likely to be upper middle class/elite - since they are the ones that actually could afford paying the human traffickers and the like. Coupled with the fact that Syria has been quite secular compared to other Middle Eastern countries, I will wait for some hard evidence before accepting by faith a claim that the refugees are, by large, some uncouth fundamentalist savages.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2015, 09:51:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 09:45:52 AM
Well, if we wanted to stop barbaric culturally foreign non-European peoples migrating to our areas and settling in, we should have thought about it when Magyars invaded Pannonia - now the genie is out of the bottle.
The whole continent should have been walled off in the year 500. What you mean 'our areas' Slavic heathen :mad:
"Slav" comes from "slave" and slaves built the Roman Empire. I want Italians to pay us reparations.
This is not true. I think it comes from "slava", which means "glory".
By the way, another idiocy - and a question is this something genuinely limited to Polish idiots, or shared by other European idiots - the outrage that "OMG REFUGEES CLAIM TO NEED OUR HELP BUT THEY HAVE SMARTPHONES!!!111"
This is so retarded, I don't even...
Quote from: Razgovory on September 15, 2015, 09:56:15 AM
This is not true. I think it comes from "slava", which means "glory".
Sorry, I meant it the other way around - "slave" comes from "Slav"
Zeit.de cites a Polish poll: 68% of the Poles fear that refugees bring religious conflicts to their country, and 58% are afraid of terrorist attacks.
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 09:54:44 AM
Incidentally, I read today that the Syrian refugees we are getting are actually more likely to be upper middle class/elite - since they are the ones that actually could afford paying the human traffickers and the like. Coupled with the fact that Syria has been quite secular compared to other Middle Eastern countries, I will wait for some hard evidence before accepting by faith a claim that the refugees are, by large, some uncouth fundamentalist savages.
We have had nothing but good experiences with their Lebanese counter-parts.
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 09:55:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2015, 09:51:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 09:45:52 AM
Well, if we wanted to stop barbaric culturally foreign non-European peoples migrating to our areas and settling in, we should have thought about it when Magyars invaded Pannonia - now the genie is out of the bottle.
The whole continent should have been walled off in the year 500. What you mean 'our areas' Slavic heathen :mad:
"Slav" comes from "slave" and slaves built the Roman Empire. I want Italians to pay us reparations.
Pretty sure that came from all the Slavs captured by the Tartars and sold to the Turks. You should be asking Turkey and Mongolia for those reparations :P
Wait did the Venetians also use Slavs to row their galleys? Don't know. You may be able to go after the Italians after all.
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 10:06:15 AM
Zeit.de cites a Polish poll: 68% of the Poles fear that refugees bring religious conflicts to their country, and 58% are afraid of terrorist attacks.
Well, it does not help when pretty much all major political parties tout that view.
The fears of the Bavarian school mearly represent what is bound to happen: local ways will have to give ground to the ways of the newly arrived.
That said, with 72% of the migrants being men, it goes without saying that all those migrant women and girls are in the front lines to getting raped, once they are put in the refugee centers.
The Women's Council of Hessen made a non-public letter to the local goverment regarding the situation of women in the local center, where women and girls now live in terror and get raped regularly. They appeal to the authorities to separate the genders.
(it is really just a matter of time until all those men turn their attentions to German girls).
The Council put initially the letter here: http://lfr-hessen.de/galerie/2015/76-buendnis-zur-situation-von-gefluechteten-frauen-und-maedchen-in-den-hessischen-erstaufnahmeeinrichtung-und-deren-aussenstellen.html (http://lfr-hessen.de/galerie/2015/76-buendnis-zur-situation-von-gefluechteten-frauen-und-maedchen-in-den-hessischen-erstaufnahmeeinrichtung-und-deren-aussenstellen.html)
but has currently removed it due to "abusive use" (codeword for: "our telling of the truth is being used by non-liberals to show what is really happening, and the authorities don't like it").
Still, there was still time to scan it:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpamelagellercom.c.presscdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2FScan-244-464x600.jpeg&hash=21f0979425534cbd11b2d135fc3de26a8c808071)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpamelagellercom.c.presscdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2FScan-243-464x600.jpeg&hash=ae68a86d1acf21f18f907c26fe326e0b5a18bd59)
Oh dear, what a sorry post.
A single Afghan woman who applied for asylum in Hungary but traveled on to Austria last October was to be sent back to Hungary. She sued against it and the Austrian Administrative Court sided with her, saying in its verdict that Hungary is no longer safe for refugees due to possible violations of the European Charter of Human Rights in the country. The court quickly added that this was but a single case and that each individual case would have to be judged on its own merit.
http://www.rt.com/news/315431-assad-interview-refugee-terrorists/
Quote'If you are worried about refugees, stop supporting terrorists' - Assad interview
Europe is "not dealing with the cause" of the current refugee crisis, Syrian President Bashar Assad said in an interview with Russian media, RT among them, adding that all Syrian people want is "security and safety."
"It's not about that Europe didn't accept them or embrace them as refugees, it's about not dealing with the cause. If you are worried about them, stop supporting terrorists. That's what we think regarding the crisis. This is the core of the whole issue of refugees.
"If we ask any Syrian today about what they want, the first thing they would say - 'We want security and safety for every person and every family'," the Syrian president said, adding that political forces, whether inside or outside the government "should unite around what the Syrian people want."
The "Syrian fabric," as Assad has called it, includes people of many ethnicities and sects, including the Kurds. "They are not foreigners," the Syrian president said, adding that without such groups of people who have been living in the region for centuries "there wouldn't have been a homogeneous Syria."
Assad said that the dialogue in Syria should be continued "in order to reach the consensus," which cannot be implemented "unless we defeat the terrorism in Syria."
"If you want to implement anything real, it's impossible to do anything while you have people being killed, bloodletting hasn't stopped, people feel insecure," the Syrian president said.
"I'd like to use our meeting today to address all parties in a call to unite in the struggle against terrorism. Only through dialogue and the political process can we reach political goals, that the Syrians should set for themselves," Bashar Assad said.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2015, 10:07:01 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 09:54:44 AM
Incidentally, I read today that the Syrian refugees we are getting are actually more likely to be upper middle class/elite - since they are the ones that actually could afford paying the human traffickers and the like. Coupled with the fact that Syria has been quite secular compared to other Middle Eastern countries, I will wait for some hard evidence before accepting by faith a claim that the refugees are, by large, some uncouth fundamentalist savages.
We have had nothing but good experiences with their Lebanese counter-parts.
The one country in the Near East with the most Christians. Guess what, France has not had problems with Lebanese too. Most Lebanese in France are Maronites.
Quote from: mongers on September 15, 2015, 07:41:24 AM
This handling of this crisis has helped change my view of the Hungarian state; now not sure it was sensible to allowed them into the EU and NATO.
It's reminded me how former foreign minister Thorvald Stoltenberg from Norway risked his life helping Hungarian refugees escape in 1956 and how Europe took them in en masse. We shouldn't have bothered. What a bunch of cunts.
Quote from: citizen k on September 15, 2015, 12:05:19 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 14, 2015, 11:36:47 PM
Serbia has announced that it will not accept any refugees deported back from Hungary and that it will protect its border with troops if necessary.
Is this how tragedies unfold? One misstep at a time.
Some damned silly thing in the Balkans...
Quote from: Norgy on September 15, 2015, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 15, 2015, 07:41:24 AM
This handling of this crisis has helped change my view of the Hungarian state; now not sure it was sensible to allowed them into the EU and NATO.
It's reminded me how former foreign minister Thorvald Stoltenberg from Norway risked his life helping Hungarian refugees escape in 1956 and how Europe took them in en masse. We shouldn't have bothered. What a bunch of cunts.
Or you just got all the good ones.
Isn't it funny, by the way, how the chief opponents of immigrants - even on this forum - come from shitty countries, like Belgium, Portugal, Quebec (or, in a more general sense, not confined to this forum, Hungary or Poland)?
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2015, 05:08:00 AM
I find it quite funny that the most antimmigrant people in this thread are Tamas - a Hungarian who lives in the UK and duque - a Portuguese guy who lives in Paris (and from what I remember from our Languish meet in Paris, he is the one who took us out on a wild goose chase to some area populated by culturally distinct Portuguese Parisians - who felt much more alien than the Lebanese restaurant owners Saladin took us to in London).
Missed this one, but this is even better than when Martinus took a church for a mosque in Paris! :lol:
Actually the area populated by those "culturally distinct Portuguese Parisians" as in playing pétanque or cards on WE and having a beer or a glass of wine, without icicles in it (very culturally different from French no doubt), is at the edge of the Bois de Boulogne, by the XVI district of Paris, near Porte Dauphine, a very bourgeois area. Near the Université Paris Dauphine, former NATO HQ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_arrondissement_of_Paris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_arrondissement_of_Paris)
Picture of the area "populated by culturally distinct Portuguese Parisians". Yes, it's a small recreational forest. http://streetviewing.fr/Porte+Dauphine%2C+Paris%2C+France (http://streetviewing.fr/Porte+Dauphine%2C+Paris%2C+France)
I wonder what will happen when Martinus notices that his mostly beloved so-called "Syrian middle class-Elite" is mostly tracksuit crowd and are way more culturally distinct.
That's rich (pun intended) even from a nouveau riche, well known for his classism and (real) champagne left leanings. I suspected our resident Polish bobo would be impressed, since well integrated European working class do not interest bobos at best, and they do not like them at worst, but did not imagine it would be that much. As for the so-called wild goose chase, I remember finding what I looked for so he's talking again out of ignorance.
PS: edit for Garbon :)
A Euro-off? Vom.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 15, 2015, 02:29:49 PM
Missed this one, but his is even better than when Martinus took a church for a mosque in Paris! :lol:
Was it Sacré Cœur?
Quote from: Savonarola on September 15, 2015, 02:41:16 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 15, 2015, 02:29:49 PM
Missed this one, but his is even better than when Martinus took a church for a mosque in Paris! :lol:
Was it Sacré Cœur?
:lol:
Now you are too harsh on Martinus. Now if you said Notre Dame, you would have had a point. ;)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Paris_-_%C3%A9glise_Sainte-Odile_%2810%29.JPG/800px-Paris_-_%C3%A9glise_Sainte-Odile_%2810%29.JPG)
You can see the
minaret steeple pretty well in this picture.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_Sainte-Odile_de_Paris (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_Sainte-Odile_de_Paris)
It's again in West Paris, bourgeois area as well but less so than the "area populated by culturally distinct Portuguese Parisians".
Anyways, at this point I'm ready to consider the EU a failure. The majority of countries is only in it for the common market and subsidies. For defense there's NATO. And ceding anything else to the EU is "unacceptable loss of sovereignty." Even free movement of citizens pisses of several countries (e.g. UK, but also Germans who worried about TEH POOR coming from Bulgaria or Romania to nab welfare checks), leave alone refugees. I would expect that some countries (e.g. France, Germany, possibly Austria) would carry on the idea of increasing integration of the national states into something bigger, but a lot of countries seem like they would be happier if they didn't have to align with the rest of Europe and just be left to do their own thing.
Duque is lying - I never even saw this building in Paris. In any case I am not sure what's his point is. It's all very incoherent.
Not to mention I was hardly the only Languishite perplexed by that little detour in Paris...
Go on, you are hilarious. Perplexed? Not used to walking would be more accurate, for these "death marches" (not Turkish style).
I made pictures of the church and I recall we likened it to a wizard's tower, but not sure if anyone called it a mosque.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs24.postimg.org%2Fyxujw2pk5%2Fimage.jpg&hash=ffec2b6ca4fca1dab484a22b983c50cf748f5508)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs24.postimg.org%2Fjex3yyh9h%2Fimage.jpg&hash=abafefddc167f6bfe92d0a67cd7a536ca218d56b)
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 03:11:06 PM
Anyways, at this point I'm ready to consider the EU a failure. The majority of countries is only in it for the common market and subsidies. For defense there's NATO. And ceding anything else to the EU is "unacceptable loss of sovereignty." Even free movement of citizens pisses of several countries (e.g. UK, but also Germans who worried about TEH POOR coming from Bulgaria or Romania to nab welfare checks), leave alone refugees. I would expect that some countries (e.g. France, Germany, possibly Austria) would carry on the idea of increasing integration of the national states into something bigger, but a lot of countries seem like they would be happier if they didn't have to align with the rest of Europe and just be left to do their own thing.
There's so much more that EU is and could be doing, but I'm ready to admit that it may have expanded too fast (at least without reforms).
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 03:17:57 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 15, 2015, 03:17:10 PM
Go on, you are hilarious.
Well, you are a racist.
Ooh, what a fierce retort from a notorious classist bobo, very sectarian against muslims when he lived in Brussels. Talk about not throwing stones from a glass house. :)
How is calling out his concerns about religious fundamentalism, or his healthy lifestyle a valid retort to a charge of racism? :huh:
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 03:11:06 PM
Anyways, at this point I'm ready to consider the EU a failure. The majority of countries is only in it for the common market and subsidies. For defense there's NATO. And ceding anything else to the EU is "unacceptable loss of sovereignty." Even free movement of citizens pisses of several countries (e.g. UK, but also Germans who worried about TEH POOR coming from Bulgaria or Romania to nab welfare checks), leave alone refugees. I would expect that some countries (e.g. France, Germany, possibly Austria) would carry on the idea of increasing integration of the national states into something bigger, but a lot of countries seem like they would be happier if they didn't have to align with the rest of Europe and just be left to do their own thing.
With this EU failure, I would not count too much on it for France. The European constitution referendum was rejected in 2005 after all, and the 1992 Maastricht treaty referendum was only a very limited yes.
Quote from: Liep on September 15, 2015, 03:30:55 PM
There's so much more that EU is and could be doing, but I'm ready to admit that it may have expanded too fast (at least without reforms).
It is rather sad considering the BBC told all you guys the plan way back in the 80s.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last 500 years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
James Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
James Hacker: Surely we're all committed to the European ideal.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Really, Minister.
James Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact. The more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up. The more futile and impotent it becomes.
James Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes. We call it diplomacy, Minister.
The "elitist creative class" controlling the two major broadcasters is putting on a charity show for the Syrian refugees this Sunday, but the "common" Danes are having none of it and are currently spamming Facebook with even for Denmark quite overt racism.
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2015, 03:38:43 PM
Quote from: Liep on September 15, 2015, 03:30:55 PM
There's so much more that EU is and could be doing, but I'm ready to admit that it may have expanded too fast (at least without reforms).
It is rather sad considering the BBC told all you guys the plan way back in the 80s.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last 500 years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
James Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
James Hacker: Surely we're all committed to the European ideal.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Really, Minister.
James Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact. The more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up. The more futile and impotent it becomes.
James Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes. We call it diplomacy, Minister.
:lol:
Danes joined the EEC at the same time as the Brits. :hmm:
De Gaulle was right indeed about the UK. :frog:
Quote from: Liep on September 15, 2015, 03:42:20 PM
The "elitist creative class" controlling the two major broadcasters is putting on a charity show for the Syrian refugees this Sunday, but the "common" Danes are having none of it and are currently spamming Facebook with even for Denmark quite overt racism.
The 2nd half of that is certainly true in the UK; some of the stuff on social media and in the tabloid comments is really hate filled, just nasty.
Germany sees the same, especially on Facebook.
Don't feel too bad. Practically every country in the world has that kind of reaction to immigration.
In the Czech Republic 3/4 of the people answered in a poll that they don't really need the freedom of the Schengen agreements. And the hysteria has led to a number of false alarms about illegal immigrants. In one case a young woman called the police because of a "refugee dressed in black, carrying a machine gun," who turned out to be a chimney sweep carrying his work equipment. In another incident, three new (black) players of a football club were nearly arrested because police thought they had escaped from a nearby deportation facility. The minster of the interior explained that these cases, while bizarre to Western citizens, are to be expected in a country that was behind the iron curtain for 40 years and has had limited experience with migrants.
I may be a tiny chimney sweep, but I carry an enormous brush.
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 01:44:06 PM
Isn't it funny, by the way, how the chief opponents of immigrants - even on this forum - come from shitty countries, like Belgium, Portugal, Quebec (or, in a more general sense, not confined to this forum, Hungary or Poland)?
Portuguese people, along with the Chinese and Lithuanians, are among the least pleasant people I have met. The Poles are just all smiles. I suspect they'll drive a hammer through my brain at the first opportunity, though.
Quote from: Norgy on September 15, 2015, 05:12:46 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 01:44:06 PM
Isn't it funny, by the way, how the chief opponents of immigrants - even on this forum - come from shitty countries, like Belgium, Portugal, Quebec (or, in a more general sense, not confined to this forum, Hungary or Poland)?
Portuguese people, along with the Chinese and Lithuanians, are among the least pleasant people I have met. The Poles are just all smiles. I suspect they'll drive a hammer through my brain at the first opportunity, though.
They will steal your potatoes and hack off your feet.
Belgium and Quebec are shitty countries?
Quebec is a country?
Belgium is a country?
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 04:11:16 PM
In the Czech Republic 3/4 of the people answered in a poll that they don't really need the freedom of the Schengen agreements. And the hysteria has led to a number of false alarms about illegal immigrants. In one case a young woman called the police because of a "refugee dressed in black, carrying a machine gun," who turned out to be a chimney sweep carrying his work equipment. In another incident, three new (black) players of a football club were nearly arrested because police thought they had escaped from a nearby deportation facility. The minster of the interior explained that these cases, while bizarre to Western citizens, are to be expected in a country that was behind the iron curtain for 40 years and has had limited experience with migrants.
Just reprehensible conduct from the populace.
Quote from: Maximus on September 15, 2015, 07:28:51 PM
Belgium is a country?
No, it's more like a highway for German armed forces to use when invading France. Like Denmark, when they invade Scandinavia, but with less bacon.
Quote from: Norgy on September 15, 2015, 05:12:46 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 01:44:06 PM
Isn't it funny, by the way, how the chief opponents of immigrants - even on this forum - come from shitty countries, like Belgium, Portugal, Quebec (or, in a more general sense, not confined to this forum, Hungary or Poland)?
Portuguese people, along with the Chinese and Lithuanians, are among the least pleasant people I have met. The Poles are just all smiles. I suspect they'll drive a hammer through my brain at the first opportunity, though.
I think the Chinese MO isn't that they'll drive a hammer through your head. It is when someone drives a hammer through your head, they'll laugh (at you), take pictures with a V sign, then help themselves with your belongings ;)
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 01:44:06 PM
Isn't it funny, by the way, how the chief opponents of immigrants - even on this forum - come from shitty countries, like Belgium, Portugal, Quebec (or, in a more general sense, not confined to this forum, Hungary or Poland)?
Well, Quebec is not a country, not yet, at least, and it's been only your old pal Grallon. Also, one could say the Languish population is not a fair representation of our respective countries.
Quote from: Syt on September 15, 2015, 03:50:33 PM
Germany sees the same, especially on Facebook.
same here on Facebook. I see a rise in islamophobia. Public discourse is more welcoming, including shock jocks and other media commenters.
Quote from: Norgy on September 15, 2015, 05:12:46 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2015, 01:44:06 PM
Isn't it funny, by the way, how the chief opponents of immigrants - even on this forum - come from shitty countries, like Belgium, Portugal, Quebec (or, in a more general sense, not confined to this forum, Hungary or Poland)?
Portuguese people, along with the Chinese and Lithuanians, are among the least pleasant people I have met. The Poles are just all smiles. I suspect they'll drive a hammer through my brain at the first opportunity, though.
Real life porkchops I've ever met have been very engaging and pleasant. Now true they're porkchops who have emigrated to Canada, but still.
I find it ironic that there is so much intra-European racism in this thread. The selfishness and parochialism of certain sections of the European population, plus the incompetence and shilly-shallying of their governments, is fairly small beer compared to the dreadful events and behaviour in the Middle East itself :huh:
Quote from: Norgy on September 15, 2015, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Maximus on September 15, 2015, 07:28:51 PM
Belgium is a country?
Excuse me sir. We like to be thought of as a speed bumba instead. You know "Brave Little Belgium" and all that.
No, it's more like a highway for German armed forces to use when invading France. Like Denmark, when they invade Scandinavia, but with less bacon.
I donated to Polish Humanitarian Action helping the refugees. :blush:
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 01:17:15 AM
I donated to Polish Humanitarian Action helping the refugees. :blush:
How much?
Classy, bragging about donations. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 12:32:34 AM
I find it ironic that there is so much intra-European racism in this thread. The selfishness and parochialism of certain sections of the European population, plus the incompetence and shilly-shallying of their governments, is fairly small beer compared to the dreadful events and behaviour in the Middle East itself :huh:
Oh, absolutely agreed. While some of the bickering is the expected part of finding a common consensus, it's become pretty clear in recent years that the EU is only popular if they do stuff for its members, but never if it requires something of them. Not to mention that pretty much all nations flaunt the rules all the time - not adhering to budgetary rules, not registering refugees for years (which only became a problem recently because of the increased number of refugees), introducing or trying to introduce legislation running counter to EU rules, flip flopping on the Dublin agreements, trying to abolish the pluralist society in a certain country etc. etc. etc. - with little to no consequence, because at the end of the day the EU has no real teeth to enforce its rules except for slaps on the wrist in the form of laughable fines.
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2015, 02:03:41 AM
Classy, bragging about donations. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
Well, I guess it's preferable to forcing the refugees to cross the Danube and then wander into minefields.
Croatia to allow refugees free passage:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/16/first-refugees-head-for-croatia-after-hungarys-border-crackdown-live-updates
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/business/international/europe-must-plan-for-immigration-juggernaut.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
QuoteA Migration Juggernaut Is Headed for Europe
European leaders probably don't want to hear this now, as they frantically try to close their borders to stop hundreds of thousands of desperate migrants and asylum seekers escaping hunger and violence in Africa and the Middle East. But they are dealing with the unstoppable force of demography.
Fortified borders may slow it, somewhat. But the sooner Europe acknowledges it faces several decades of heavy immigration from its neighboring regions, the sooner it will develop the needed policies to help integrate large migrant populations into its economies and societies.
That will be no easy task. It has long been a challenge for all rich countries, of course, but in crucial respects Europe does a particularly poor job.
Perhaps it's not surprising, as a recent report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development found, that it is harder for immigrants to get a job in European Union nations than in most other rich countries. But that doesn't explain why it is also harder for their European-born children, who report even more discrimination than their parents and suffer much higher rates of unemployment than the children of the native-born.
Rather than fortifying borders, European countries would do better to improve on this record. The benefits would be substantial, for European citizens and the rest of the world.
Over the summer, as Hungary hurried to lay razor wire along its southern border and E.U. leaders hashed out plans to destroy smugglers' boats off the coast of North Africa, the United Nations Population Division quietly released its latest reassessment of future population growth.
Gone is the expectation that the world's population will peak at nine billion in 2050. Now the U.N. predicts it will hit almost 10 billion at midcentury and surpass 11 billion by 2100. And most of the growth will come from the poor, strife-ridden regions of the world that have been sending migrants scrambling to Europe in search of safety and a better life.
The population of Africa, which has already grown 50 percent since the turn of the century, is expected to double by 2050, to 2.5 billion people. South Asia's population may grow by more than half a billion. And Palestine's population density is expected to double to 1,626 people per square kilometer (4,211 per square mile), three times that of densely populated India.
Over the next several decades, millions of people are likely to leave these regions, forced out by war, lack of opportunity and conflicts over resources set in motion by climate change. Rich Europe is inevitably going to be a prime destination of choice.
"With Africa's population likely to increase by more than three billion over the next 85 years, the European Union could be facing a wave of migration that makes current debates about accepting hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers seem irrelevant," wrote Adair Turner, the former chairman of Britain's Financial Services Authority and now chairman of the Institute for New Economic Thinking.
Europe's initial reaction to the flow has been mixed, at best. Germany, notably, has committed real resources to help cover the basic needs of hundreds of thousands of refugees it expects to welcome this year. But that is hardly the spirit across the board. And Europe is still mostly focused on steeling its borders, even to the point of closing many of its once free-flowing internal boundaries.
Better options exist. The rich history of immigration around the world suggests that new migrant populations could be integrated into the European social fabric to the benefit of Europeans, the new immigrants and even the regions of the world they left behind.
Take Britain, where the government of Prime Minister David Cameron came into office promising to cut net annual immigration from "the hundreds of thousands to the tens of thousands."
Researchers at Britain's National Institute for Economic and Social Research and the University of Ottawa estimated that carrying out the policy would cut Britain's income per head, increase public spending and raise income taxes to pay for it. All things considered, by 2060 Britons' wages would be 3.3 percentage points lower than had the government left the immigration rate alone.
These dynamics apply across the developed world. Frédéric Docquier of the Université Catholique de Louvain in Belgium, Caglar Ozden from the World Bank and Giovanni Peri of the University of California, Davis, found that immigration from 1990 through 2000 had a positive effect on the wages of native workers — including low-wage workers — in virtually all the 34 countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
Rich countries with lower fertility rates and older populations benefit from young migrants of working age, who help rev up their slowing labor supply. From 2000 to 2010, migrants accounted for nearly two-thirds of European labor force growth. Immigrants bring diversity to complement the attributes of domestic workers: different levels of education and productivity and different consumption patterns.
They spur business investment to take advantage of the additional labor supply. They prompt domestic workers to switch into occupations that leverage their language skills and other comparative advantages.
Despite popular perceptions to the contrary, migrants are often highly educated, and they generally do not burden the public purse. Stefano Scarpetta, director of the department of employment, labor and social affairs at the O.E.C.D., said immigrants often contribute more in taxes than they draw in public benefits.
What's more, the countries sending migrants abroad often benefit, too.
"Remittances transfer some of the gains from the increased productivity of migrants back to the natives that remained in the home country," wrote Julian di Giovanni of the Universitat Pompeu Fabra in Barcelona, Andrei Levchenko of the University of Michigan and Francesc Ortega of the City University of New York.
Of course, the most sensible response to large-scale immigration must include helping unstable, impoverished countries in Africa and beyond overcome the demographic pressure that stunts their development, as Mr. Turner advocates. Investment in human and physical capital simply can't keep up with population growth. Neither can job creation.
Achieving the demographic transition to lower mortality and fertility rates will require not only investing in women's education and encouraging contraceptive use but also freeing women to make their own reproductive choices.
In the meantime, Europe's challenge is real. Receiving millions of migrants of different races, religions and cultures from far-flung lands will pose political, economic and social challenges to European countries that remain to this day fairly homogeneous.
Social scientists have acknowledged the importance of Europe's racial and cultural homogeneity in building political support for expensive welfare states with robust safety nets. It was easier for white, Christian Europeans to tolerate high taxes if they went to pay for benefits for white, Christian Europeans like themselves.
Access to jobs is a critical precondition for success. But the overall task is greater, to eventually close the socio-economic gaps between immigrants and their descendants and native Europeans. "What matters is the integration of the migrants in receiving countries," Mr. Scarpetta said. "This will not occur by itself."
In the end, the choice is clear. Europe's best shot at prosperity is to build upon the diversity that immigration will bring.
http://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/hoe-de-eu-de-controle-over-de-migratiebewegingen-verloor/article-opinion-603749.html
some horrible google-translate english:
Quote'How the EU lost control of migration flows'
"Even for those who do not apply for asylum are EU ports since September 1, 2015 in fact wide open," writes Marc Bossuyt, the Honorary Commissioner General for Refugees and Stateless Persons. He outlined the extent of the problem if countries fail in their duty to guard the external borders.
Thanks to payment of 12,000 US dollars to a people smuggler, succeeded a former Afghan interpreter of the Belgian NATO troops in Afghanistan, managed in Greece on December 7, 2008 to arrive. Because he is our soldiers "very friendly" thought, he chose to go two months later to Belgium. However, since he had entered the EU through Greece, he was on June 15, 2009, transferred under the Dublin Regulation, accompanied to Greece. There he was held in poor conditions for four days. Because in addition to the asylum procedure was flawed and inadequate living conditions of asylum seekers, Greece was supported by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg on January 21, 2011 sentenced to 1,000 euros in damages. Belgium, which was held indirectly responsible, had to pay the man 24 900 euro. Since then, no more applicant to be sent back to Greece.
Dublin, the key element of the Common European Asylum System
The Dublin Regulation, a key piece of the Common European Asylum System (CEAS), is the oldest European asylum instrument dating back to 1990. This regulation, which assumes that each EU Member State shall respect the non-refoulement principle, based on sincere cooperation, reciprocity and mutual confidence between the EU Member States on asylum. It provides a simple procedure to determine who the Member State responsible for examining an asylum application without any prior examination of the human rights situation in the EU Member State. The entire CEAS will be jeopardized if a participating Member State fails to comply with the obligations arising from the inadequacy of its monitoring of its external borders.
After all, when in a building with many gates open one port, the entire building is open! The clauses which allow Member States, if they wish, to examine an asylum application, even where another Member State is responsible, in order to create an obligation to do so, even if he does not want, the Strasbourg Court has to those clauses given a radically different meaning than was intended when drafting.
Strasbourg
Rapidly successive judgments of the Strasbourg Court, the Dublin Regulation also systematically dismantled. On October 21, 2014 Italy was condemned for the asylum seekers (Sharifi et al) with a ferry boat had returned to Greece without examining the individual situation of each of them. The Court requires that the determination of the State responsible for examining an asylum application, the same (weighty) procedure is followed as for the treatment of an application on the merits. Italy had the Court nevertheless pointed out that denial of access to consider the territory as "collective expulsions" to undergo the states would oblige mass invasions of irregular migrants. How effective has dismantled the Court the Dublin Regulation, is demonstrated by the fact that, at the time of the proceedings of that case before the Court, several of the 35 plaintiffs in Germany, France, Italy, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland stayed.
Inhuman treatment
On November 4, 2014 the Strasbourg Court held that Switzerland an Afghan couple (Tarakhel) with six children could not even return to Italy - even though it acknowledged that its situation is not comparable to those in Greece - before having received individual ensure that the Italian government would take charge of them in a manner appropriate to their age. Only three judges felt that nothing showed that, from a material, physical or psychological perspective, she ran a sufficiently real and imminent risk of inhuman or degrading treatment.
On July 7, 2015 the Strasbourg Court held that Belgium should not assume that France would honor its treaty obligations towards a Serbian Roma family (VM et al). The Danish court, a former vice president of the Danish Council for Refugees, pointed out in his dissenting opinion that this judgment could have a significant negative impact on the functioning of the cooperation among EU Member States regarding the treatment of asylum applications. The Swiss court pointed out that the Court did not appear to know that France is party to the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) and the Hungarian that Serbia, a member state of the Council of Europe.
Luxembourg
Without against the Strasbourg MSS judgment to go into the Court of Justice of the EU in Luxembourg on December 21, 2011 to nevertheless attempt to weaken somewhat by stating that asylum seekers may not be transferred, if Member States know about them have it there is - on the asylum procedure and reception conditions of asylum seekers in the Member State responsible - "fundamental flaws" occur (and not a mere violation of a fundamental right). It is strange that the Luxembourg Court has approved, without committing to affect the movement from the State relative to whom the Dublin regulation can not be applied.
After Strasbourg judgments undermining the principle of mutual trust between EU Member States, the Court of Luxembourg on December 18, 2014, to the surprise of many, the rejected draft agreement for EU accession to the ECHR. The Court of Luxembourg points out that it is precisely this principle allows for maintaining an area without internal borders. Except in exceptional circumstances, Member States should not consider whether a Member State other EU fundamental rights is respected in a specific case. If the Court of Strasbourg, this would require, even if EU law imposes an obligation of mutual trust, would, according to the Court of Luxembourg, the EU accession to the ECHR bring the EU of the underlying equilibrium out of balance and the autonomy of EU law undermine.
Fulfill obligations
One way this could consist, in case there is complained that the situation would be contrary to a contracting party to the ECHR with that Convention to investigate complaints compared to those countries (such as Greece and Italy) and not compared to another country (such as Belgium and Switzerland). Common faith does not require a priori be excluded that an EU Member State may violate the ECHR, but - at least when it concerns an EU member state or Schengen State - to direct this violation responsible State, which in accountability must be established, and not a State which previously could be held indirectly responsible.
If the few States which fully comply with their international obligations on human rights and refugees, everyone should welcome that choose to live in those countries rather than in its country of origin or entry into the EU, it is particularly difficult for those States to fulfill their obligations after coming.
External borders wide open
This is all the more true because since February 23, 2012 the Strasbourg Court all external maritime borders of the Member States of the Council of Europe has declared wide open for anyone but applies for asylum. When from Libya, in the absence of effective state authority, numerous migrants trying to reach Lampedusa, they were initially by the Italian coastguard pushed back to Libya. In a case concerning 11 Eritreans and 13 Somalis (Hirsi Jamaa and Others), the Court of Strasbourg, however, that Italy had to pay them 15,000 euros each. Since then, the Italian coast guard goes, assisted by the European border control agency (Frontex), the migrant retrieve from the sea to take them to Italy.
Consequently, an increasing number of migrants risking the crossing with ever gammeler boats and with an increasing number of drowning deaths and unscrupulous smugglers multimillionaire. It's revenge calling that illusion by many Africans that if they entrust their hard together geraapte possessions to these smugglers, their prosperous fate awaits within the EU. And although there is an effective state authority in Turkey, also depart from there tons of migrants, mostly from the Middle East (Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria), to Greece.
Just from Syria there are millions of war refugees - caught in camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey - who dream to come to the EU. In Greece, no more fingerprints taken and via Macedonia and Serbia they travel to Hungary and Austria and from there to the promised lands (Germany and Sweden) where accommodating a multitude cost of this by UNHCR in neighboring countries of Syria.
Even for those who do not apply for asylum are EU ports since September 1, 2015 in fact wide open. The Strasbourg Court has then Italy condemned it in September 2011 has proceeded to "collective expulsion" of three illegally on Lampedusa arrived Tunisians (Khlaifia ea) "without a genuine and differentiated way their individual state to have observed."
Reprove the Hungarian courts and the Montenegrin courts in their joint dissenting opinion, however, that - as the Tunisians were not eligible to enter Italy - no other studies than for their identity, nationality and the existence of a safe country of return was required, which also happened individually and in a language they understood. Together with the Belgian court that judges also found that the grant of 10,000 euros to each of these three Tunisians were on the high side.
Schengen
Although the revised Dublin III - Regulation of June 26, 2013, which has attempted to take into account the case law of Strasbourg and Luxembourg on the MSS problem only came into force since January 1st 2014, should now be established that they are neither legal, functions or in fact. The principle of the responsibility of each Member State to monitor its borders, if necessary assisted by FRONTEX is therefore abandoned.
Every asylum seeker who manages to enter the Schengen area, can now freely travel to the country of his choice (Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, ...), without running the risk remains to be returned to his country of that zone has arrived. The two most important of these countries (Greece and Italy) do not even fulfill their obligations to the taking of fingerprints under the revised Eurodac regulation of June 26, 2013.
Mandatory coverage
The only alternative which is thought, appears to be the compulsory dispersion of a number of seekers. The numbers on July 20th, 2015 agreed by the European Council (32 256 people in Italy and Greece and 22 504 individuals from third countries) represent only a fraction of those who are on the move, let alone those who wish to come to the EU. The mandatory distribution seems not only very difficult to get things done (especially in the former East European EU member states), but also has weaknesses:
1.De incentive to protect one's borders will be lost.
2.The only to a distribution of applicants who are in the countries of entry (such as Greece and Italy) or even in a third country outside the EU but not the applicants who are already in the countries of destination of their choice ( Germany, Sweden, etc.) have arrived.
3.Wegens free movement within the Schengen area can not be prevented these applicants, once arrived in a Schengen country, from there will travel to the Schengen country of their preference.
Lost control
Which hypothesis is taken to face, it is difficult to be adhered to the principle of free movement within the Schengen area to persons authorized to reside there, have not obtained. The Schengen system and the Dublin Regulation are closely linked. With regard to asylum seekers, the Dublin regulation is the counterweight of free movement within the Schengen zone. When the Dublin regulation is not functioning, it may Member States that wish, no longer be allowed to ascertain whether the persons entering their country, have obtained admission. Obviously no prejudice to the freedom of movement within the Schengen zone of EU citizens and of aliens exempt from visa requirement or hold a valid visa. Those Member States which wish to (the others have only the consequences of undergoing) must be able to verify this, wherever and whenever, and in particular at the internal borders of the countries that do not comply with their EU obligations.
Since neither the asylum procedure, nor care, nor the European social services are organized, is to hold the difficult to the free movement of persons who are not unconditionally authorized to stay within the Schengen zone. Despite the ineffective are the Dublin procedure, the EU continues to frantically deny the ban on checking the internal borders of the Schengen area to be suspended. Thus, it can not assess or who exceeds the internal borders, it has obtained permission to enter this area or stay inside. It is thus that the EU lost control of migration movements.
More "racism" in the illegal migrant crisis, from Charlie Hebdo
QuoteCharlie Hebdo may face legal action over cartoons
Controversial magazine may face legal action for inciting hate crimes after publishing cartoons about Alan Kurdi.
15 Sep 2015 11:11 GMT | Human Rights, Mediterranean, Refugees, France
The controversial French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo may face legal action for inciting hate crimes after publishing cartoons about drowned Syrian toddler Alan Kurdi in its latest issue.
The first cartoon shows a clown and what appears to be the toddler with a sign: "Welcome immigrants, so close to his goal. Promotion: Two children for the price of one."
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.storypick.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2Fcharlie-hebdo-2.jpg&hash=fcea630fb8a045e038c6bdf1fbc429153f812342)
The second cartoon, "Proof that Christians walk on water" shows a man supposedly resembling Jesus walking on water as a partially submerged child says "Muslim children drown."
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CO3WT4KXAAACM0B.jpg:large)
Heart-rending photos of the toddler's lifeless body washed ashore on a Turkish beach last week sparked global horror and debate on refugees.
The magazine's cartoons sparked outrage on social media.
Peter Herbert, chair of the Society of Black Lawyers, tweeted that the group would consider reporting Charlie Hebdo's actions as "an incitement to hate crime & persecution before the International Criminal Court".
He continued:
D Peter Herbert OBE @herbert_donald
Charlie Hebdo is a purely racist, xenophobic and ideologically bankrupt publication that represents the moral decay of France.
2:22 AM - 14 Sep 2015
492 492 Retweets 237 237 favorites
In January, armed men who identified as being members of al-Qaeda stormed the magazine's Paris offices, killing 11 people in the building and injuring another 11.
The magazine had published images mocking Prophet Muhammad.
A manhunt ensued and several related attacks followed in the Île-de-France region, where a further five people were killed and 11 wounded.
International Criminal Court? Before Assad, Daesh and the like? Wow, just wow. Outrage industry at its finest.
Somebody should tell the PC crusaders that leftist Charlie Hebdo is in favour of unrestricted immigration in France and vitriolic, ironic satire is their speciality. Cartoons mock the inaction. See the first cartoon on the left, front page of Charlie Hebdo last week (Welcome! This is your home!).
Conveniently forgotten by Al Jazeera.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.f1g.fr%2Fmedia%2Ffigaro%2F805x453_crop%2F2015%2F09%2F16%2FXVM874eb140-5c4f-11e5-8740-f97ea4b12628.jpg&hash=935874edf44116422f2d88a9625e096bdf228da9)
:lol: Hate crime? Who's the victim? French society or the EU?
Quote from: Liep on September 16, 2015, 04:56:06 AMCroatia to allow refugees free passage:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/16/first-refugees-head-for-croatia-after-hungarys-border-crackdown-live-updates
Croatia has no gimedats for them so the horde will move on.
First indication seems to be that they are registering them and sending them to camps instead. I am guessing Frau Merkel called them about their earlier idea.
According to this map in a Vienna station Femern is Danish! Wooo!
EDIT: And Sild as well! :w00t:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPBPFkpUEAAQGB_.jpg)
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2015, 05:13:35 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/business/international/europe-must-plan-for-immigration-juggernaut.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
What happens after these hordes have invaded Europe and transformed it into a copy of the shitholes they escaped from? It bears repeating that the Dark Ages was the direct consequence of a similar wave of migrants from the 5th century on...
G.
Quote from: Grallon on September 16, 2015, 07:45:29 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2015, 05:13:35 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/business/international/europe-must-plan-for-immigration-juggernaut.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
What happens after these hordes have invaded Europe and transformed it into a copy of the shitholes they escaped from? It bears repeating that the Dark Ages was the direct consequence of a similar wave of migrants from the 5th century on...
G.
:lol:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 12:32:34 AM
I find it ironic that there is so much intra-European racism in this thread. The selfishness and parochialism of certain sections of the European population, plus the incompetence and shilly-shallying of their governments, is fairly small beer compared to the dreadful events and behaviour in the Middle East itself :huh:
This. It is pretty shameful stuff all around.
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2015, 07:59:01 AM
Quote from: Grallon on September 16, 2015, 07:45:29 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2015, 05:13:35 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/business/international/europe-must-plan-for-immigration-juggernaut.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
What happens after these hordes have invaded Europe and transformed it into a copy of the shitholes they escaped from? It bears repeating that the Dark Ages was the direct consequence of a similar wave of migrants from the 5th century on...
G.
:lol:
:D
Quote from: Grallon on September 16, 2015, 07:45:29 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2015, 05:13:35 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/business/international/europe-must-plan-for-immigration-juggernaut.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
What happens after these hordes have invaded Europe and transformed it into a copy of the shitholes they escaped from? It bears repeating that the Dark Ages was the direct consequence of a similar wave of migrants from the 5th century on...
G.
A broken clock is right twice a day, but would you really want to hand around for 23 hours 59 minutes and 58 seconds of tedium, in the hope that it might be very briefly correct?
The nation states of the Dark Ages couldn't agree on refugee relocation either.
A right wing protest was scheduled for last Saturday in Hamburg, but the courts banned it due to the high chance of violence from the invited hooligans.
Anyways, it appears one hool who had traveled with others from somewhere else in Germany by train nevertheless, took to Facebook and complained - it was the worst thing he had ever experienced: pulled out of a train against his will, put on a bus wher ethey had to wait for hours, told they'd be sent to A but were in fact sent to B, treated very unfriendly by police, and he was generally pissed off that he wasn't allowed to go where he wanted to and people didn't want him at his destination.
I hope this is not a fake, because the irony would be wonderful. :D
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2015, 08:04:16 AM
A right wing protest was scheduled for last Saturday in Hamburg, but the courts banned it due to the high chance of violence from the invited hooligans.
Anyways, it appears one hool who had traveled with others from somewhere else in Germany by train nevertheless, took to Facebook and complained - it was the worst thing he had ever experienced: pulled out of a train against his will, put on a bus wher ethey had to wait for hours, told they'd be sent to A but were in fact sent to B, treated very unfriendly by police, and he was generally pissed off that he wasn't allowed to go where he wanted to and people didn't want him at his destination.
I hope this is not a fake, because the irony would be wonderful. :D
:lol: It has to be a troll though.
Quote from: mongers on September 16, 2015, 08:02:55 AM
Quote from: Grallon on September 16, 2015, 07:45:29 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2015, 05:13:35 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/business/international/europe-must-plan-for-immigration-juggernaut.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
What happens after these hordes have invaded Europe and transformed it into a copy of the shitholes they escaped from? It bears repeating that the Dark Ages was the direct consequence of a similar wave of migrants from the 5th century on...
G.
A broken clock is right twice a day, but would you really want to hand around for 23 hours 59 minutes and 58 seconds of tedium, in the hope that it might be very briefly correct?
Mongers
You've got to choose between the continental 24-hour clock system, or the 12-hour clock system, can't have both. :P
*fog in the Channel/Manche"
Aaand around a hundred migrants have destroyed the gate at the main Serbian border crossing, Roszke. (which has been closed for less than 48 hours IIRC). Right now riot police is blocking the gate in a triple line. There is tear gas and all.
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 08:45:52 AM
Aaand around a hundred migrants have destroyed the gate at the main Serbian border crossing, Roszke. (which has been closed for less than 48 hours IIRC). Right now riot police is blocking the gate in a triple line. There is tear gas and all.
I haven't seen people this desperate to leave Serbia since the Battle of Kolubara.
So what is the end game here? Send all these people back to Turkey?
Orban has been saying that the EU should concentrate border-protection resources in Greece.
And he is actually right about that. Look at Hungary trying to be the tough guy alone.
And Austria re-instituting border controls at Hungary and Slovenia (will be a major annoyance as tons of people live on one side and work the other).
Etc.
IF we want to control the inflow of the refugees, we should do that together, where they really enter EU territory.
Video of how it started, I wonder if the migrants are aware of the number of policemen on the other side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfrpwAEMe0c
But it is escalating right now, after tear gassing, the water cannon they had their is being used and armored riot police is lining up, while the migrants are throwing stones and other general rioting weapons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkmUdUYgH0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkmUdUYgH0)
Good luck.
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 09:01:22 AM
Video of how it started, I wonder if the migrants are aware of the number of policemen on the other side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfrpwAEMe0c
But it is escalating right now, after tear gassing, the water cannon they had their is being used and armored riot police is lining up, while the migrants are throwing stones and other general rioting weapons.
This video speaks right to the Grallons of the world, but then who wouldn't do the same if you were trapped in no man's land without food, water or shelter?
I see a handful out of hundreds attacking the barricades.
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2015, 09:24:03 AM
I see a handful out of hundreds attacking the barricades.
And you don't think that is enough for Grallon to justify calling them all barbarians?
That is the case, around 100-150 (right now probably less) being agressive out of about a thousand camped nearby.
Meanwhile it degenerated into a lull with Desperate Youth taunting the water cannon so their pals can throw stones at the police, while the Police is happy to play.
Might be getting ready for round two, though.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F991%2F9912%2F99124%2F9912479_e66437e6f5b96d3df1a4376f37408aa4_x.jpg&hash=d24afe6d65400cb7891eefd17784bcd1778d8c67)
Some migrants are now throwing pieces of concrete gathered from signposts and the like.
The Serbian riot police have gathered on the other side of things, but haven't done anything yet.
This could get interesting, in a bad way.
Merkel should never have raised their expectations with her "we welcome you all" bs. The whole business needs proper regulation and adherence to the rule of law, otherwise a tragedy will be inevitable.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Merkel should never have raised their expectations with her "we welcome you all" bs. The whole business needs proper regulation and adherence to the rule of law, otherwise a tragedy will be inevitable.
It looks to me that the tragedy is in progress.
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2015, 09:45:58 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Merkel should never have raised their expectations with her "we welcome you all" bs. The whole business needs proper regulation and adherence to the rule of law, otherwise a tragedy will be inevitable.
It looks to me that the tragedy is in progress.
At last, something we can all agree on since it has been said from the very beginning.
RT has a life feed, seems fairly calm presently: something is burning, Arab teenagers are hurling stuff at Hungarian police from a nearby rooftop, etc:
https://www.rt.com/on-air/hungarian-border-police-refugees/
The thing is of course that this a proper border crossing. So the rioters, while being outnumbered by the Hungarian police, can't be stopped: they are in Serbia, the Hungarian riot police is in Hungary.
And the Serbian police is content with watching.
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 09:51:11 AM
RT has a life feed, seems fairly calm presently: something is burning, Arab teenagers are hurling stuff at Hungarian police from a nearby rooftop, etc:
https://www.rt.com/on-air/hungarian-border-police-refugees/
Looks like there are more reporters than there are refugees.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Merkel should never have raised their expectations with her "we welcome you all" bs. The whole business needs proper regulation and adherence to the rule of law, otherwise a tragedy will be inevitable.
Merkel has gotten quite some flak for that from people within her own party in the last few days, especially from within the bavarian CSU (which is quite xenophobic even at the best of times).
Quote from: Liep on September 16, 2015, 09:57:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 09:51:11 AM
RT has a life feed, seems fairly calm presently: something is burning, Arab teenagers are hurling stuff at Hungarian police from a nearby rooftop, etc:
https://www.rt.com/on-air/hungarian-border-police-refugees/
Looks like there are more reporters than there are refugees.
That hardly looks like a riot... also, gg Tamas using RT as a news source. I see Hungary has gone full Putin. :D
Slovenia is instituting controls on it's border with Hungary, effective immiediately.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-09-16/slovenia-to-establish-controls-on-border-with-hungary/ (http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-09-16/slovenia-to-establish-controls-on-border-with-hungary/)
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 09:55:13 AMAnd the Serbian police is content with watching.
Serbiaball going Serb on the kebabs would not be pretty.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKeUFCvp.png&hash=2cfd377adbd616987b933119314425b46f3b9efe)
:huh:
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:11:33 AM
:huh:
Its purpose is clear, but I still very much agree with you on this.
Quote from: Malicious Intent on September 16, 2015, 09:57:57 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Merkel should never have raised their expectations with her "we welcome you all" bs. The whole business needs proper regulation and adherence to the rule of law, otherwise a tragedy will be inevitable.
Merkel has gotten quite some flak for that from people within her own party in the last few days, especially from within the bavarian CSU (which is quite xenophobic even at the best of times).
I'd say that her flip-flopping on that point is a straightforward fail, regardless of ones position on the xenophobe/-phile spectrum.
Some people are handing out masks for the men among the migrants and urge them to go back in front of the border crossing so that more people faces the police.
Meanwhile a few (not riot gear) Serbian police officers went into the mob and are trying to explain to them what's going on.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 10:16:30 AM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on September 16, 2015, 09:57:57 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Merkel should never have raised their expectations with her "we welcome you all" bs. The whole business needs proper regulation and adherence to the rule of law, otherwise a tragedy will be inevitable.
Merkel has gotten quite some flak for that from people within her own party in the last few days, especially from within the bavarian CSU (which is quite xenophobic even at the best of times).
I'd say that her flip-flopping on that point is a straightforward fail, regardless of ones position on the xenophobe/-phile spectrum.
Absolutely. It was a game-changing blunder.
There have been 3 separate fires lit by the rioters.
And a pregnant woman in the crowd started giving birth :bleeding:
What a mess
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 10:28:28 AM
And a pregnant woman in the crowd started giving birth :bleeding:
How barbaric! Surely they do not know our customs - you do not give birth, unless you are in a maternity ward - anything else is uncouth.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:31:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 10:28:28 AM
And a pregnant woman in the crowd started giving birth :bleeding:
How barbaric! Surely they do not know our customs - you do not give birth, unless you are in a maternity ward - anything else is uncouth.
Yes, that's what I mean with :bleeding: that the woman should have waited out of courtesy.
You really are annoying.
Serbia intervenes?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FspsSWoK.png&hash=815cd87753424787475fcd0a7b68ac22ae5c30f4)
The most pathetic thing about this whole incident of course is that it may very well prove totally futile.
More and more migrants are being put on buses in Serbia and disembarked at the Croatian border. Assuming they can get through the minefields, I suspect tens of thousands will be pouring through the unguared Croatian-Hungarian border in a matter of a week.
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 10:17:41 AM
Some people are handing out masks for the men among the migrants and urge them to go back in front of the border crossing so that more people faces the police.
Great, more useful idiots fanning the flames, à la "no border activist" in the Calais jungle.
Quote
Meanwhile a few (not riot gear) Serbian police officers went into the mob and are trying to explain to them what's going on.
Well, maybe they should have been that understanding with "their" Muslims in Yugo times.
Some of the rioters probably spread the lie of the crossing being open, because a big crowd, women, children, old people joined the rioters in pushing toward the gate. Dispersed quickly once the tear gas grenades landed, of course.
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 10:33:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:31:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 10:28:28 AM
And a pregnant woman in the crowd started giving birth :bleeding:
How barbaric! Surely they do not know our customs - you do not give birth, unless you are in a maternity ward - anything else is uncouth.
Yes, that's what I mean with :bleeding: that the woman should have waited out of courtesy.
You really are annoying.
I just don't understand the point of a lot of your (or duque's) posts, to be honest. Or rather, I understand what you want to convey between lines quite well ("the immigrants are horrible people") but to me what you describe often falls short of that and usually just showcases incompetence and racism of the European authorities, especially in the Central and Eastern Europe. If actually showcasing that is your goal then I apologise for attributing an ulterior motive to you.
I guess at this point my question would be what is the competent non-racist way of handling this situation.
And you choose my post about the horrible situation of a poor woman having to give birth in the middle of a riot to point that out?
Besides you might be suffering from the usual leftist problem: you blame me for your own thoughts.
I am getting tired of writing this ever second page on this thread, but I do sympathise with the migrants because in their situation back in their home, I would be doing the exact same thing probably the exact same way.
And I also haven't made a secret of the fact that I think the EU and its nation states are primaly responsible for the interests of their own citizens. As such, an organised, disciplined acceptance and integration of these people is necessary.
And it is also necessary to make the migrants adhere to local laws because they can't begin their new life by learning that the way to achieve their goals is to throw tantrums and resist authorities.
It's a bit hard to make people "adhere to local laws" when you confine them, lie to them about where they are going and then throw loafs of bread to them for sport.
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2015, 10:43:53 AM
I guess at this point my question would be what is the competent non-racist way of handling this situation.
We could start by kicking Hungary and Portugal out of the EU.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:45:46 AM
It's a bit hard to make people "adhere to local laws" when you confine them, lie to them about where they are going and then throw loafs of bread to them for sport.
Yes.
HOWEVER, the first incident you mentioned happened after the police was unable to peacefully get control of the biggest Hungarian train station back from the migrants who, when let in, flooded the trains and disabled all traffic.
The food throwing was despicable, but started after a failure to set up a proper queue where families with children were to get preferntial treatment.
The systems of these small and poor (ish) European countries are overwhelmed. And they have been given an impossible task. Of course horrible things are going to happen.
Hungarian government's press guy was talking about the recent happenings.
The rhetoric is sickeningly populist anti-immigrant of course. Basically "we told you these are all agressive dangerous people" Despicable.
But it appears that 20 police officers have been injured in the clashes, and two migrant children were thrown over the fence to the Hungarian side. They have been taken to a hospital.
:(
Tamas, I'd have more sympathy for you position if you didn't keep posting updates all the time, it comes over has if you're trying to drum-up the crisis into something bigger.
So in a superficial way it appears similar to the out and out racists who're clogging up mainstream media with their bile, the difference being you have said some things about understanding some aspects of the migrants/refugees plights, whereas the neo-nazis elsewhere having nothing positive to say.
Quote from: mongers on September 16, 2015, 10:58:23 AM
Tamas, I'd have more sympathy for you position if you didn't keep posting updates all the time, it comes over has if you're trying to drum-up the crisis into something bigger.
So in a superficial way it appears similar to the out and out racists who're clogging up mainstream media with their bile, the difference being you have said some things about understanding some aspects of the migrants/refugees plights, whereas the neo-nazis elsewhere having nothing positive to say.
Hmmm, I see your point.
I just wanted to keep you guys updated as the Hungarian media is posting stuff.
I am not trying to drum up anything. I have a big interest in the minute details of course since that is my old country there, where all my family lives, which is in the process of getting stuck between an incompetent but vicious government and an antagonized ever-growing mass of people.
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2015, 10:50:01 AM
The systems of these small and poor (ish) European countries are overwhelmed. And they have been given an impossible task. Of course horrible things are going to happen.
I don't think anyone is disputing that. It just seems like Hungary is making an effort to look as bad as possible and escalate things.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:31:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 10:28:28 AM
And a pregnant woman in the crowd started giving birth :bleeding:
How barbaric! Surely they do not know our customs - you do not give birth, unless you are in a maternity ward - anything else is uncouth.
Well, for one who claims that most Syrian refugees we are getting are actually more likely to be upper middle class/elite they sure are very culturally distinct, and know to riot like (lumpen i.e desperate) proletariat which they are much more likely to be. Most well-off Syrians are either with the régime or fled long time ago.
But yeah, go on playing the self-pontificating useful champagne leftist idiot, both xenophile and xenophobic, this will help all Orbans in Central and Eastern Europe.
Quote
I just don't understand the point of a lot of your (or duque's) posts, to be honest. Or rather, I understand what you want to convey between lines quite well ("the immigrants are horrible people") but to me what you describe often falls short of that and usually just showcases incompetence and racism of the European authorities, especially in the Central and Eastern Europe. If actually showcasing that is your goal then I apologise for attributing an ulterior motive to you.
Tu n'es plus Charlie? Did you miss it as well? Or is your outrage at PC crusaders and fundie muslims only available in select occasions?
Quote from: mongers on September 16, 2015, 10:58:23 AM
Tamas, I'd have more sympathy for you position if you didn't keep posting updates all the time, it comes over has if you're trying to drum-up the crisis into something bigger.
So in a superficial way it appears similar to the out and out racists who're clogging up mainstream media with their bile, the difference being you have said some things about understanding some aspects of the migrants/refugees plights, whereas the neo-nazis elsewhere having nothing positive to say.
:huh:
Quote from: 11B4V on September 16, 2015, 11:10:50 AM
Quote from: mongers on September 16, 2015, 10:58:23 AM
Tamas, I'd have more sympathy for you position if you didn't keep posting updates all the time, it comes over has if you're trying to drum-up the crisis into something bigger.
So in a superficial way it appears similar to the out and out racists who're clogging up mainstream media with their bile, the difference being you have said some things about understanding some aspects of the migrants/refugees plights, whereas the neo-nazis elsewhere having nothing positive to say.
:huh:
He has a point: ultimately this is around 100 rioters vs. hundreds of armed police. I just thought its interesting due to what it can escalate into, and how it very well may be the precursor of uglier things to come.
But honestly: I am just reporting what I am reading, in totally anti-government Hungarian news sources by the way.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:46:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2015, 10:43:53 AM
I guess at this point my question would be what is the competent non-racist way of handling this situation.
We could start by kicking Hungary and Portugal out of the EU.
lol
The muslims on the Hungarian front would abhor you if they knew of your homofag existence and would sooner toss you off of a tall building than reciprocate your misplaced kindness.
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2015, 10:43:53 AM
I guess at this point my question would be what is the competent non-racist way of handling this situation.
The situation is so bad you don't even need to think of race about it.
Let's think of it this way:
Imagine that, instead of the current migrants, the ones asking for asylum are the peoples of Europe of the Middle Ages (though in much larger numbers than they were at the time).
People that, even though are like us, also are full with their violent, religious, backwards and intolerant ways, typical of their era and upbringing.
And that behind these 1-2 million are other tens of millions - if not over 100 million - of them ready to come if we welcome them and give them all house and welfare in 'Christian Solidarity'.
Just need to think of what would the only logical answer that could be given.
And mine is separation of migrants into those that really need help and those who don't, creation of processing centers at the borders of the Union, deportation of the majority of them that are just economic migrants, and try hard to make sure those that stay with us are able to accept our modern ways, kicking them if they cannot.
This simple reasoning becomes much simpler when your eyes are not muddled by the "they are not white, thus we must cave in to their every demand" mindset that the Western nations have been indoctrinated to have.
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 16, 2015, 11:10:50 AM
Quote from: mongers on September 16, 2015, 10:58:23 AM
Tamas, I'd have more sympathy for you position if you didn't keep posting updates all the time, it comes over has if you're trying to drum-up the crisis into something bigger.
So in a superficial way it appears similar to the out and out racists who're clogging up mainstream media with their bile, the difference being you have said some things about understanding some aspects of the migrants/refugees plights, whereas the neo-nazis elsewhere having nothing positive to say.
:huh:
He has a point: ultimately this is around 100 rioters vs. hundreds of armed police. I just thought its interesting due to what it can escalate into, and how it very well may be the precursor of uglier things to come.
But honestly: I am just reporting what I am reading, in totally anti-government Hungarian news sources by the way.
Well report what your reading. Don't let someone guilt you into otherwise. It's your country.
Orban has just announced there shall be a fence along the Croatian border as well :lol:
I mean, it only takes around 300 riot police, a water cannon, a couple of armored vehicles, and two helicopters to hold one gate on the fence, why wouldn't hundreds upon hundreds of kilometers of more fence solve the issue?!
I need a fence. :ph34r:
Good for Hungary.
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2015, 11:36:09 AM
Orban has just announced there shall be a fence along the Croatian border as well :lol:
I mean, it only takes around 300 riot police, a water cannon, a couple of armored vehicles, and two helicopters to hold one gate on the fence, why wouldn't hundreds upon hundreds of kilometers of more fence solve the issue?!
complete employment will be in reach soon.
Quote from: Legbiter on September 16, 2015, 11:15:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:46:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2015, 10:43:53 AM
I guess at this point my question would be what is the competent non-racist way of handling this situation.
We could start by kicking Hungary and Portugal out of the EU.
lol
The muslims on the Hungarian front would abhor you if they knew of your homofag existence and would sooner toss you off of a tall building than reciprocate your misplaced kindness.
:rolleyes:
As I said, all the racists come from the shitty pseudo-countries. Latest addition: Iceland.
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2015, 10:43:53 AM
I guess at this point my question would be what is the competent non-racist way of handling this situation.
1. Take people coming now. Turning them away is inhumane.
2. Make clear to them that if they want to stay they have to obey the rules of an open pluralistic society (this should not just be implied - put them through education and exams - they can leave the refugee camp and live within the society when they pass the exam and swear allegiance to secular constitution). Enforce the rules ruthlessly (yes, it will cost money) both against fundamentalists and local racists/fascists. No tolerance for intolerance.
3. Put diplomatic and commercial pressure on Arabic countries to accept their share of refugees.
4. Rethink our policy of toppling secular (or somewhat secular) dictators in Middle East.
5. Put diplomatic and commercial pressure on Arabic countries (in particular, the Saudis) to stop funding fundamentalist clerics in the West. If they refuse, make them our enemy (yeah, costly).
I am not saying anything of this is easy, but you wanted a solution - and it will cost us. But then we tolerated "friends" like Saudis for way too long.
For the record, I really hate it when people use my homosexuality as a way to somehow discredit my willingness to help the refugees. It's either the type of racism-cum-homophobia that Legbiter just exhibited, or "Oh you are gay, so you want to be tolerant" (the latter coming from some supposedly sympathetic people).
No, I just think you are ignorant. Being gay has nothing to do with it.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 02:07:41 PMAs I said, all the racists come from the shitty pseudo-countries. Latest addition: Iceland.
Clutch your pearls ever more tightly, darling.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 16, 2015, 10:33:31 AM
Serbia intervenes?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FspsSWoK.png&hash=815cd87753424787475fcd0a7b68ac22ae5c30f4)
What the hell was that suppose to be?
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on September 16, 2015, 11:15:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 10:46:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 16, 2015, 10:43:53 AM
I guess at this point my question would be what is the competent non-racist way of handling this situation.
We could start by kicking Hungary and Portugal out of the EU.
lol
The muslims on the Hungarian front would abhor you if they knew of your homofag existence and would sooner toss you off of a tall building than reciprocate your misplaced kindness.
:rolleyes:
As I said, all the racists come from the shitty pseudo-countries. Latest addition: Iceland.
Unfortunately, this last one cannot be even theoretically expelled/deported from the EU (like an illegal migrant?), even by Martinus. :lol:
Serbia have protested the use of tear gas and water cannon on their territory. They will send more police to keep the groups apart. A Serbian news crew say they've been attacked by Hungarian police even though they repeatedly identified themselves as press. When the refugees threatened to break through the border, the police retreated, and three Hungarian jeeps with machine guns took positions about 100 meters away.
Romania criticized Hungary's building a fence on their border, saying that there was no migrant pressure, contrary to what Hungary claims, and that it's massively counter to the European spirit. Their prime minister Ponta said that this harks back to the countries' relations in the 1930s, and that Romania, unlike Hungary, does not welcome refugees with wooden clubs and serial numbers.
Hungarian foreign minister Szijjarto replied that Ponta was caught in a circle of lies and that he obviously had lost not only his political position but also his self control. His Romanian counterpart replied that Hungary's tone was unacceptable and that it was an attempt to artificially create conflict.
Ban Ki-Moon says he was shocked by the images from the Hungarian border and that it was unacceptable to treat refugees this way. Szijjarto rejected the criticism as bizarre and outrageous, as it was made based on incomplete information. For example, 14 Hungarian police men had been injured by the attackers.
In an interview with Austrian daily Die Presse, Orban said that if any states say they didn't weren't informed about the refugees coming from Hungary, then they're lying.
He says he doesn't take the public criticism from Austrian chancellor Faymann seriously. In their regular phone calls the tone is more amicable. Orban says he understands that Faymann plays a role in the tactics of the European Left - one day the Austrian complains, then the Swede, then the Romanian. He added that at least the French are subtle in their insults. Romanians and Austrians are more blunt which is why he doesn't expect an apology from Austria, because that's not their way.
In the same interview he declared multiculturalism dead. He says he's studied the Western European societies in the last years and come to no other conclusion that weren't integrated into society, despite the countries' best efforts, creating parallel societies. He says it was a matter of demographics and mathematics. It's not about religion, but about culture, lifestyle, gender equality and freedom of speech, and a question of the unlimited supply of Muslims in the Middle East.
Szijjarto being the Foreign Minister, or to be more precise, Szijjarto being anything more than a janitor in this country is probably the lowest the country has ever sunk since 1945.
But he proved himself over the years as an uncompromising lapdog of Orban, having spent many a press conferences as his press secretary making an utter fool out of himself with a straight face.
Meanwhile in France, Meanwhile, in France, the media barrage produces a great pointless, symbolic feel good gesture, based on Hungarian bashing:
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2015/09/16/97001-20150916FILWWW00225-la-seyne-le-drapeau-hongrois-mis-en-berne.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2015/09/16/97001-20150916FILWWW00225-la-seyne-le-drapeau-hongrois-mis-en-berne.php)
Executive summary:
Hungarian flag half-masted as a protest to the Hungarian policy against migrants
Marc Vuillemot PS mayor of la Seyne sur Mer, near Toulon in southern France, has decided to lower to half-mast the Hungarian flag to protest against the so-called harsh Hungarian policy in dealing with refugees. The flag will be replaced at a later date by the UN flag. The hungarian flag was among the 27 flags of EU countries standing over a pier near the city hall. His coalition goes from PS to the trotskyite NPA (New Anticapitalist Party). :)
Yet The mayor has no plan to receive refugees since it's up to the state to indicate to the lower echelons of administrations how to help in the process.
No reaction from the conservative and extreme right wing opposition groups yet (LR and FN).
The local FN secretary asked on whose authority the mayor had turned into a lesson giver, and stated that his duty was to care about la Seyne sur Mer (implying he made a poor job) and that Hungary was right in not receiving all refugees.
QuoteMarc Vuillemot, maire (PS) de La Seyne-sur-Mer (Var), une commune proche de Toulon, a décidé de mettre en berne, dans sa ville, le drapeau hongrois, en protestation contre la politique de ce pays à l'égard des migrants, a indiqué aujourd'hui son entourage. «La décision a été prise lundi soir lors d'une réunion de la majorité municipale, qui va du PS au NPA», indique-t-on dans l'entourage du maire. Ce dernier, en déplacement, était injoignable ce mercredi. «Le maire a décidé également de retirer à terme le drapeau hongrois pour le remplacer par celui de l'ONU», précise-t-on de même source.
L'élu marque ainsi son désaccord avec la politique de la Hongrie à l'égard des réfugiés et, notamment, la fermeture de la frontière magyare avec la Serbie. Ce drapeau flotte, au milieu des 27 autres drapeaux des pays de l'Union européenne, sur un quai situé en face de l'Hôtel de Ville de cette commune de plus de 60.000 habitants. Le 8 septembre, sur son blog, Marc Vuillemot avait indiqué que sa ville était prête à «assumer ses devoirs» en matière de solidarité avec les réfugiés. «La Seyne qui, des réfugiés italiens du XIXe siècle aux fugitifs des dictatures et aux enfants de Sabra et Chatila du XXe, a toujours été terre d'accueil, fera évidemment son devoir», écrit-il.
Marc Vuillemot n'a cependant pris aucune décision concrète d'accueil des réfugiés, expliquant que c'est à l'Etat «d'indiquer qui doit faire quoi, en intégrant les possibilités propres à chacun des maillons de l'organisation territoriale de la République». Samedi 12 septembre, un représentant de la majorité municipale de La Seyne-sur-Mer s'est rendu à la réunion organisée par le ministre de l'Intérieur Bernard Cazeneuve pour évoquer cette question. L'opposition municipale de La Seyne-sur-Mer (LR et FN) n'a pas réagi à la mise en berne du drapeau hongrois mais Frédéric Boccaletti, secrétaire départemental FN du Var se demande «de quel droit ce maire donne des leçons à un autre pays ?». «Qu'il s'occupe d'abord de gérer sa ville», indique-t-il. Selon lui, «les Hongrois ont raison de ne pas accepter tous ces migrants».
I bet the Hungarian embassy in France could have a field day in France with this. Don't know how aligned to Orban are the diplomats though.
PS: as a bonus, Orban gave an interview to Le Figaro, leading centre-right newspaper and declared that while respecting the Pope's position that each parish should receive a refugee family, as a protestant, he did not him as infallible. :D
Languish style, ignoring infallibility only applies to theological matters, in a council, as a last resort, to make a decision.
In Dortmund, the city council decided to build an additional facility for refugees. SPD, CDU, Greens, Pirates, Linke and FDP mostly voted for it. The AfD, NPD and Die Rechte voted against it as expected. One council member from Die Rechte held a three minute speech against migration which he concluded with "Deutschland den Deutschen - Ausländer Raus!" (Germany for Germans - Foreigners Out), a popular slogan of the neo nazis since the 80s at least. Many citizens in attendance applauded him for it which is not permitted according to the council's rules, so the council chair ordered the audience out of the council. The Rechte speaker then used a megaphone to protest this which led to him being kicked out as well.
The Hungarian police spokesman claims the trigger to yesterday hostilites were not a misunderstanding (rumor was that the police let a couple of families through which made the migrants to believe the border was open again), but rather, they have evidence that the police at the site received an ultimatum from (I am pretty sure) parts of the migrants that if the gate was still closed at 1PM they would attack.
Couple of telling pictures of both sides I guess:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F991%2F9918%2F99186%2F9918633_a3fe31d5f0cfcc0fc9f4b96ff54049b1_wm.jpg&hash=f9c6fdb617a5a34810d9ce820ef4411529697920)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F991%2F9918%2F99187%2F9918743_7ac35931a4392e28146581c4cdac87a1_wm.jpg&hash=cfe02c9515154e241bc208938fb57a348ec177da)
http://www.tijd.be/politiek_economie/internationaal_midden_oosten/Twee_dagen_en_750_euro_voor_vals_Syrisch_paspoort.9676690-3143.art?ckc=1&ts=1442488144
exec summary: Two days and 750 euro's for a fake Syrian passport. On official paper and printed with the official printers.
Quote from: Syt on September 17, 2015, 04:57:42 AM
In Dortmund, the city council decided to build an additional facility for refugees. SPD, CDU, Greens, Pirates, Linke and FDP mostly voted for it. The AfD, NPD and Die Rechte voted against it as expected. One council member from Die Rechte held a three minute speech against migration which he concluded with "Deutschland den Deutschen - Ausländer Raus!" (Germany for Germans - Foreigners Out), a popular slogan of the neo nazis since the 80s at least. Many citizens in attendance applauded him for it which is not permitted according to the council's rules, so the council chair ordered the audience out of the council. The Rechte speaker then used a megaphone to protest this which led to him being kicked out as well.
Wow, lovely. Good thing Germany banned the use of swastika - this has surely eliminated nazism from public life.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 17, 2015, 06:12:43 AM
http://www.tijd.be/politiek_economie/internationaal_midden_oosten/Twee_dagen_en_750_euro_voor_vals_Syrisch_paspoort.9676690-3143.art?ckc=1&ts=1442488144
exec summary: Two days and 750 euro's for a fake Syrian passport. On official paper and printed with the official printers.
That's quite steep. Not sure many immigrants will be able to afford it.
The main railroad "hub" for migrants in Croatia before they board trains to Zagreb is already overloaded.
Look here:
https://twitter.com/Thomaspraekelt
Those people have a single toilet and a single source of water available.
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 06:32:56 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 17, 2015, 06:12:43 AM
http://www.tijd.be/politiek_economie/internationaal_midden_oosten/Twee_dagen_en_750_euro_voor_vals_Syrisch_paspoort.9676690-3143.art?ckc=1&ts=1442488144
exec summary: Two days and 750 euro's for a fake Syrian passport. On official paper and printed with the official printers.
That's quite steep. Not sure many immigrants will be able to afford it.
Remember when you told us they were mostly upper class/elite? Fake passport business is booming.
QuoteGerman customs officers have seized packages containing Syrian passports and police suspect they are being sold illegally to asylum seekers.
A finance ministry official said both genuine and forged passports were in the packets intercepted in the post.
Germany is letting Syrians register for asylum regardless of where they entered the EU. As refugees from the Syrian civil war, most have a right to asylum.
The passports can help fraudulent claimants to get asylum, the EU says.
The ministry official declined to say how many Syrian passports had been found in the customs checks. The German police are now investigating.
The EU border agency Frontex says trafficking in fake Syrian passports has increased, notably in Turkey.
A Frontex official, Fabrice Leggeri, told French radio station Europe 1 that "people who use these fake passports mostly speak Arabic.
"They may come from North Africa, the Middle East, but they have the profile of economic migrants," he said.
Germany has by far the highest number of asylum applicants in the EU, many of them Syrians and Afghans, but many also from the western Balkan countries.
Turkey is a major transit country for refugees and other migrants heading for the EU, and is also housing more than two million Syrian refugees in camps.
Later Leggeri added those fake passports have not been used yet by terrorists.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34150408 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34150408)
http://news.yahoo.com/migrants-using-fake-syrian-passports-enter-eu-border-094700556.html (http://news.yahoo.com/migrants-using-fake-syrian-passports-enter-eu-border-094700556.html)
So it's no surprise that according to Lorenz Caffier, CDU interior minister of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania (bordering Poland :P) that 25 % of the so-called Syrians are not Syrians.
A police source even tell of Black Africans trying to pass as Syrians. :D
QuoteLorenz Caffier: Innenminister zweifelt an Herkunft angeblicher Syrien-Flüchtlinge
Der Innenminister warnt: Ein Viertel der angeblich aus Syrien stammenden Flüchtlinge sind keine Syrer. Die Syrische Gemeinde fürchtet Nachteile
Nicht alle Menschen, die über Ungarn und Österreich als Asylsuchende nach Deutschland kommen und sich als Syrer ausgeben, sind tatsächlich Bürgerkriegsflüchtlinge aus Syrien. Nachdem Helfer in den vergangenen Tagen wiederholt Zweifel geäußert und erklärt hatten, dass eine große Anzahl der Einreisenden falsche Angaben zu ihrer Herkunft mache, hat jetzt erstmals Mecklenburg-Vorpommerns Innenminister Lorenz Caffier (CDU) diese Beobachtungen bestätigt: ,,Mindestens ein Viertel der angeblich aus Syrien kommenden Flüchtlinge stammt nicht aus Syrien, sondern aus anderen arabischen oder afrikanischen Ländern", sagte Caffier, der auch dem Verteidigungsausschuss des Bundesrates vorsitzt, dem RedaktionsNetzwerk Deutschland (RND), dem auch die OSTSEE-ZEITUNG angehört.
Caffiers Aussage deckt sich mit Angaben von Rainer Wendt, Bundesvorsitzender der Deutschen Polizeigewerkschaft (DPolG): ,,Fast ausnahmslos jeder Flüchtling gibt vor, Syrer zu sein. Tatsächlich kommen viele aus allen möglichen Ländern, selbst aus Schwarzafrika", sagte Wendt dem RedaktionsNetzwerk Deutschland. Falsche Identitätsangaben seien ,,an der Tagesordnung". Wer Geld habe, lege gefälschte Pässe vor. Andere gäben an, keine Ausweispapiere mehr zu besitzen.
http://www.ostsee-zeitung.de/Nachrichten/MV-aktuell/Politik/Lorenz-Caffier-Innenminister-zweifelt-an-Herkunft-angeblicher-Syrien-Fluechtlinge (http://www.ostsee-zeitung.de/Nachrichten/MV-aktuell/Politik/Lorenz-Caffier-Innenminister-zweifelt-an-Herkunft-angeblicher-Syrien-Fluechtlinge)
The tabloids have a field day with this and don't need to distort much (just put pretending in upper case) but they did note quote their sources.
QuoteThe country controversially opened its doors to all Syrians fleeing the country's civil war last month, sparking the biggest migrant influx since the Second World War.
But yesterday a top politician claimed at least 25 per cent of the supposedly Syrian refugees are in fact from elsewhere.
Interior minister Lorenz Caffier said: "At least a quarter of those refugees allegedly coming from Syria are not from Syria, but from other Arab or African countries."
Rainer Wendt, head of Germany's police union, recently made the same claim.
He said: "Almost without exception, every refugee pretends to be a Syrian when in fact, many come from other countries, even from sub-Saharan Africa."
And a police officer, who wished to remain anonymous, argued: "All [refugees] present themselves as Syrians, even if they are obviously black Africans."
Angela Merkel recently opened Germany's doors to Syrian refugees
This week politicians made a dramatic U-turn on its open-door policy after admitting it was straining the country's ability to provide accommodation.
Temporary border checks were introduced to stem the flow of thousands of refugees, many of them travelling by train from Austria to Munich.
Germany's national railway, Deutsche Bahn, halted services from Austria for around 12 hours as the situation spiralled out of control.
The country is expecting at least 800,000 refugees this year – by far the most of any the European Union member state.
Officials have become increasingly frustrated with the reluctance of many other EU countries – especially those in the former Eastern bloc – to share the burden of hosting the newcomers.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/605485/migrants-asylum-Syrian-African-Arabic-Germany-Lorenz-Caffier-refugee-crisis (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/605485/migrants-asylum-Syrian-African-Arabic-Germany-Lorenz-Caffier-refugee-crisis)
Ok, I tried asking this question directly but every time I do, I am told I confused a church spire with a minaret instead, so maybe some other poster can enlighten me - what exactly is duque's point?
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 07:16:13 AM
Ok, I tried asking this question directly but every time I do, I am told I confused a church spire with a minaret instead, so maybe some other poster can enlighten me - what exactly is duque's point?
That even while they're escaping the gaping pit that is the Middle East in all its dictatorial and religious glory they are just going to turn Europe into something similar.
At any rate we're all going to die.
Chaos growing at that Croatian train stations, Tovarnik.
In short order 6000 people arrived to it. There has been one train taking away 800 of them, the others are growing restless and demanding to know what is going to happen to them.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F992%2F9922%2F99220%2F9922031_0852c2a5a34baf8143535de29e376436_wm.jpg&hash=e5f4d008995b74343a10c3e983ad024ef6ee461d)
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2015, 06:32:56 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 17, 2015, 06:12:43 AM
http://www.tijd.be/politiek_economie/internationaal_midden_oosten/Twee_dagen_en_750_euro_voor_vals_Syrisch_paspoort.9676690-3143.art?ckc=1&ts=1442488144
exec summary: Two days and 750 euro's for a fake Syrian passport. On official paper and printed with the official printers.
That's quite steep. Not sure many immigrants will be able to afford it.
the price for the boatride is steep. this isn't that expensive, especially if they're all "upper class".
This is quite a good source of information about the refugee and migration crisis in Europe:
http://www.unhcr.org.uk/ (http://www.unhcr.org.uk/)
I answered, Martinus, your self-loathing Polish bobo xenophile angelism blinds you, as long as Muslims are not close to you cf. your stay in Brussels. Mix it up with good old xenophobia towards Portuguese, Québécois, Belgians and Icelanders, et voilà. Not al these illegal migrants are refugees, far from it, as shown by these examples of massive fraud.
I can't help if you're clueless, to give another example, that you can't see a difference between a Parisian park in a very bourgeois area with a "culturally distinct" enclave. The kind that most of these so-called migrants are very good at creating. You should see what look like the places squatted by illegals migrants or refugees.
My point : de facto open door policy is a disaster for Europe. Only the most vulnerable refugees should be welcomed, i.e and/or willing to behave, this means mostly Yezidis and Christians, very few secular muslims, since most others even when told to leave the others don't comply and cannot be deported due to "humanitarian" reasons, but that's something that does not interest the post-christian left.
Besides, what are you accomplishing? You are only one useful idiot more helping indirectly human smugglers and mafias, to make himself feel better by bragging about his humanitarian donations.
Last thing, most European countries are in no condition to receive an endless stream of refugees due to economical and society reasons. I know it's sad but we can't help it, much less economic migrants, specially given the poor record of muslim immigrants at assimilation or even integration.
So the continuous barrage of refugee/migrant emotional, not rational, news, to make everybody feel guilty does not help. I don't get the "refugee hatred" on my friend and family circle, be it live or on social networks, only some self-rightneousness from well-meaning but ultimately naive and dangerous angelist persons.
PS: it's either unrestricted immigration or social states. Can't have both.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2015, 08:28:49 AM
I answered, Martinus, your self-loathing Polish bobo xenophile angelism blinds you, as long as Muslims are not close to you cf. your stay in Brussels. Mix it up with good old xenophobia towards Portuguese, Québécois, Belgians and Icelanders, et voilà. Not al these illegal migrants are refugees, far from it, as shown by these examples of massive fraud.
I can't help if you're clueless, to give another example, that you can't see a difference between a Parisian park in a very bourgeois area with a "culturally distinct" enclave. The kind that most of these so-called migrants are very good at creating. You should see what look like the places squatted by illegals migrants or refugees.
My point : de facto open door policy is a disaster for Europe. Only the most vulnerable refugees should be welcomed, i.e and/or willing to behave, this means mostly Yezidis and Christians, very few secular muslims, since most others even when told to leave the others don't comply and cannot be deported due to "humanitarian" reasons, but that's something that does not interest the post-christian left.
Besides, what are you accomplishing? You are only one useful idiot more helping indirectly human smugglers and mafias, to make himself feel better by bragging about his humanitarian donations.
Last thing, most European countries are in no condition to receive an endless stream of refugees due to economical and society reasons. I know it's sad but we can't help it, much less economic migrants, specially given the poor record of muslim immigrants at assimilation or even integration.
So the continuous barrage of refugee/migrant emotional, not rational, news, to make everybody feel guilty does not help. I don't get the "refugee hatred" on my friend and family circle, be it live or on social networks, only some self-rightneousness from well-meaning but ultimately naive and dangerous angelist persons.
PS: it's either unrestricted immigration or social states. Can't have both.
Passions running a bit high?
http://www.unhcr.org/55f9a70a6.html
QuoteUNHCR urges Europe to change course on refugee crisis
UNHCR reiterates its deep conviction that only a united European emergency response can address the present refugee and migration crisis. Individual measures by individual countries will not solve the problem but will make an already chaotic situation worse, further the suffering of people and increase tension amongst states at a time when Europe needs more solidarity and trust.
UNHCR is particularly concerned about a series of restrictive measures recently introduced by Hungary and the way they are being implemented, resulting in extremely limited access for refugees at the border. New legislation includes deterrence measures, some contrary to international law and European jurisprudence when applied to asylum-seekers and refugees.
"UNHCR reiterates its call on the the Hungarian authorities to ensure unimpeded access for people in need of protection in line with its legal and moral obligations,"the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, António Guterres, said today. "States should manage their borders in a way that is consistent with International and EU Law, including guaranteeing the right to seek asylum," Guterres added.
Reports indicate that only a few asylum-seekers have been allowed to enter Hungary through the official border crossing point. UNHCR was especially shocked and saddened to witness Syrian refugees, including families with children who have already suffered so much, being prevented from entering the EU with water cannons and tear gas.
Hungary has also begun to return asylum-seekers to Serbia, against standing UNHCR advice to governments. The argument that refugees can be denied entry because it is possible to be returned to Serbia does not take into account the asylum system Serbia is currently building is not able to cope with the magnitude of the current inflow of people who require effective protection.
In relation to refugees being detained for irregularly crossing the border barrier and will be charged, UNHCR reminds States of their obligations under the UN Refugee Convention and, in particular, article 31 (non- penalization for unauthorized entry or presence for asylum seekers and refugees).
"It is not a crime to cross a border to seek asylum," Mr. Guterres said.
To address the crisis, and given the outcome of the meeting of the Justice and Home Affairs Ministers and the new situation at the Hungarian border, UNHCR proposed an emergency plan of action yesterday in Brussels for:
1. The immediate creation of facilities in Greece to receive, assist, register and screen people arriving.
2. The immediate start of a process, from Greece and from existing centers in Italy, for the relocation of 40,000 refugees agreed to by the Council to participating EU countries. This should be expanded by additional voluntary pledges by EU states against the new proposals of the European Commission.
3. An emergency package from the EU to Serbia to establish a similar capacity to properly assist, register and relocate people to other European countries.
In parallel, UNHCR insists on the need to substantially increase the opportunities for Syrian refugees hosted in neighboring countries to Syria to access legal channels to the EU including enhanced resettlement and humanitarian admission, family reunification and humanitarian and student visas.
Meanwhile, a growing number of refugees are now moving to Croatia. UNHCR has offered immediate support to the Croatian authorities and is mobilizing additional teams, relief items and equipment to Greece and Serbia as more than 4000 refugees and migrants continue to arrive on a daily basis to Greece.
And now the walking on motorways have started in Croatia as well.
Plus there have been an incident when they wanted to move out some inhabitants from a refugee center who had been living there for years (I think they wanted to put them on Slovenia-headed trains as well).
Two migrants in Berlin threatened to jump out of the 10th floor window of the registration office because they have been waiting for 21 days for their papers to start receiving aid.
Supposedly the office is so overwhelmed that there are quite bad conditions. Migrants have seen to be fighting over a single banana, for example, they are so underfed.
Less than 24 hours in the "front lines" and Croatia which was quite loud about being happy to deal with the migrant movement has already requested Serbia Macedonia and Greece to stop letting through migrants. :lol:
EU: teh fail
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/644502647450521600?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
Ok...does anybody outside of these poor bastards in Eastern Europe and the Balkans have a plan on how to handle this? Are we just going to sit around and watch this disaster unfold?
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2015, 02:14:33 PM
1. Take people coming now. Turning them away is inhumane.
Yes...but who is in charge of that? Hungary cannot do that. Serbia cannot do that. Well I guess they could...but I don't think that is what you mean.
Quote2. Make clear to them that if they want to stay they have to obey the rules of an open pluralistic society (this should not just be implied - put them through education and exams - they can leave the refugee camp and live within the society when they pass the exam and swear allegiance to secular constitution). Enforce the rules ruthlessly (yes, it will cost money) both against fundamentalists and local racists/fascists. No tolerance for intolerance.
Thought control is a non-starter. They are going to bring whatever they bring.
Quote3. Put diplomatic and commercial pressure on Arabic countries to accept their share of refugees.
Pretty sure those countries have been under tremendous pressure for a long while now.
Quote4. Rethink our policy of toppling secular (or somewhat secular) dictators in Middle East.
Toppling regimes has never been a policy. It is a case-by-case basis :P But yes we should not do this. I don't even want us to topple the North Korean regime.
Quote5. Put diplomatic and commercial pressure on Arabic countries (in particular, the Saudis) to stop funding fundamentalist clerics in the West. If they refuse, make them our enemy (yeah, costly).
We are already putting devastating pressure on them. It is called 'fracking'.
QuoteI am not saying anything of this is easy, but you wanted a solution - and it will cost us. But then we tolerated "friends" like Saudis for way too long.
Nations do not have friends, they have interests.
The only thing that makes sense is #1 and I think everybody has called for that theoretically, but the EU is too weak to do it. Confederations never work. This is the Hanseatic League all over again.
Sorry I am not going to parse that shit.
On 1, yes there has to be a pan-European response. I like Zizek's idea of allocating refugees to countries and telling them, sorry, you cannot move with the EU for the time being. This will probably require some sort of ID cards for refugees, but unlike the US, people in Europe generally are required to have/carry IDs on them, so it is not a cultural shock the way it would be in the US.
On 2, I am not advocating thought control - I am advocating verbal commitment (which, surprisingly, is a problem to many fanatics) coupled with ruthless enforcement of the rules on those who violate them. But this must be matched with a ruthless enforcement against our fanatics and haters.
On 3, the pressure should be greater. Simple as that.
On 4, we seem to agree.
On 5, that is not enough. Unlike no. 3, the pressure here should not be just commercial and diplomatic - if the Saudis continue to sponsor fanatical clerics on our soil, they should be held responsible through sanctions and the like. We should also, generally, cool it off with the Saudis and stop sucking their cocks all the time.
Ok fine I was just wanting to fit in with Berkut and company.
Oh I agree. I have no idea what the deal is with the Saudis and why we always have to be their best buds, especially since the US does not even need them anymore. Though it probably has something to do with oil being fungible. The fungibility factor always gets them off the hook.
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2015, 10:05:52 AM
Ok fine I was just wanting to fit in with Berkut and company.
Oh I agree. I have no idea what the deal is with the Saudis and why we always have to be their best buds, especially since the US does not even need them anymore. Though it probably has something to do with oil being fungible. The fungibility factor always gets them off the hook.
It may be fungible but is it fungible from Yuggoth?
Leave the Saudis alone, they're busy bombing Yemen back into the 1200s.
Quote from: Syt on September 17, 2015, 10:14:30 AM
Leave the Saudis alone, they're busy bombing Yemen back into the 1200s.
Only the Saudis could make bombing with smart bombs, look so dumb.
It's almost like they don't care about civilians? :unsure:
I'm guessing their pilots are picked like the regimental commanders of most 18th century European armies. :P
Quote from: Syt on September 17, 2015, 10:22:00 AM
I'm guessing their pilots are picked like the regimental commanders of most 18th century European armies. :P
By how fabulous their wigs are?
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2015, 10:22:46 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 17, 2015, 10:22:00 AM
I'm guessing their pilots are picked like the regimental commanders of most 18th century European armies. :P
By how fabulous their wigs are?
And whether their families can buy them a commission.
Quote from: Syt on September 17, 2015, 10:23:05 AM
And whether their families can buy them a commission.
Oh ok that seems more likely.
I believe Saudi pilots get their training in the US, so my suspicion is the civilian casualties are not a function of pilot ineptitude.
Quote from: mongers on September 17, 2015, 10:19:11 AM
Quote from: Syt on September 17, 2015, 10:14:30 AM
Leave the Saudis alone, they're busy bombing Yemen back into the 1200s.
Only the Saudis could make bombing with smart bombs, look so dumb.
It's almost like they don't care about civilians? :unsure:
that's because they don't. different cultures and all that
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Merkel should never have raised their expectations with her "we welcome you all" bs. The whole business needs proper regulation and adherence to the rule of law, otherwise a tragedy will be inevitable.
Wasn't her "we welcome you" in reaction to an ongoing tragedy in Hungary and along the way from the Middle East?
Would we have any less refugees arriving right now if she hadn't said that? I suspect all of them were already on the way. The stories you hear make it sound like the trip usually takes several weeks.
Quote from: Zanza on September 17, 2015, 02:05:18 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Merkel should never have raised their expectations with her "we welcome you all" bs. The whole business needs proper regulation and adherence to the rule of law, otherwise a tragedy will be inevitable.
Wasn't her "we welcome you" in reaction to an ongoing tragedy in Hungary and along the way from the Middle East?
No. It was what triggered the impatience of the migrants. They were quite content to suffer through Hungarian ineptitude until that.
So Croatia is already mentioning a possible close of her borders.
They have received 9200 migrants in 24 hours and they can't handle them.
Quote from: Tamas on September 17, 2015, 02:12:05 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 17, 2015, 02:05:18 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 16, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Merkel should never have raised their expectations with her "we welcome you all" bs. The whole business needs proper regulation and adherence to the rule of law, otherwise a tragedy will be inevitable.
Wasn't her "we welcome you" in reaction to an ongoing tragedy in Hungary and along the way from the Middle East?
No. It was what triggered the impatience of the migrants. They were quite content to suffer through Hungarian ineptitude until that.
Fair enough. I can see that.
Quote from: Tamas on September 17, 2015, 02:12:41 PM
So Croatia is already mentioning a possible close of her borders.
They have received 9200 migrants in 24 hours and they can't handle them.
I can understand that considering Denmark almost broke into a civil war after 1500 refugees came here in one week.
Munich also had 20000 refugees in one weekend and didn't break down.
Quote from: Zanza on September 17, 2015, 02:24:12 PM
Munich also had 20000 refugees in one weekend and didn't break down.
Did close its doors though didnt it
Only temporarily to allow the creation of a more orderly process.
Just read a funny anecdote. The Bundesbank wanted to give some of its unused real estate to house refugees. That's not allowed though as it would directly financing the government, which is against Buba regulations. The federal government now has to pay rent for these buildings. Silly Germans.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/17/croatia-overwhelmed-by-volume-of-refugees-crossing-from-serbia
QuoteCroatia overwhelmed by volume of refugees crossing from Serbia
On Wednesday, there were just a few tyre prints marking the the dusty farm track that leads between Šid, the last town in Serbia, and Tovarnik, the first little village in Croatia. But by Thursday afternoon, every inch of it was scored with footprints. From little childrens' feet to big size 12s – what had been a placid surface just 24 hours earlier was now being ploughed in plumes of dust by an exodus of refugees.
Few better symbolised their desperation and determination than Mokhtar Allouf, a 23-year-old Syrian who could barely walk as he crossed over the bit of farmland that marks the Croatian border, and into the European Union. Shortly afterwards, he tugged up his shirt to reveal the cause of his limp. Between his shoulder-blades was the scar from when a Syrian soldier stabbed him with a bayonet in the spine during protests in Homs in 2011. Allouf was left paralysed for six months and four years on, he can only stagger.
"We Syrians are very strong and we will keep coming, we will keeping looking for safety," Allouf said, leaning on the shoulder of his friend Ahmed. "Even if we have to walk there like this."
This farm track is the latest frontier of the biggest refugee crisis Europe has seen in seven decades. After the slow-motion car crash of the summer, which saw the crucible of the crisis gradually move from the Greek islands through the Balkans to Germany, events are now on fast-forward, with flashpoints changing on a daily basis.
On Wednesday, the bottleneck was at Horgoš on Serbia's border with Hungary, where Hungarian police fired teargas at crowds of refugees who tried to rush a border gate when they suddenly found their northward procession blocked. But by Thursday, after Serbian officials bussed thousands of people from its Hungarian border to its Croatian one, the flashpoint had moved 120 miles south west.
At first things seemed to go smoothly. People were dropped off easily enough in Šid. Then they walked through the cauldron of the late Balkans summer, and through a series of pancake-flat corn fields to find waiting trains and coaches, amid an initially warm series of media statements from Croatia's prime minister.
But in Tovarnik, as the news spread that Croatia was open and more than 5,000 people piled over the border, matters quickly unravelled. The government had not prepared enough transport for such a huge volume of people, nor enough water, and there were too few officials to provide information and direction to newcomers who had little idea of where they were.
Tempers soon frayed and, in the uncertainty and heat, hundreds of refugees rushed past police lines in a desperate effort to grab the few available places onboard trains heading north to Zagreb and Slovenia. A day after chaos unfolded at the gates of Hungary, refugees were experiencing new traumas within the gates of Croatia.
It was a scene that once again underscored the inability of European governments to comprehend and prepare for the continent's biggest wave of mass migration since the second world war. On Wednesday, Croatia's prime minister, Zoran Milanović, had optimistically declared the country was "ready to accept and direct those people". But by Thursday, his government had discovered that this crisis is beyond what any single country can deal with on an unplanned, unilateral basis – even with the best of intentions.
Less than 24 hours after Milanović's charitable declaration, interior minister Ranko Ostrojić backtracked. "Croatia will not be able to receive more people," Ostrojić said, claiming that an earlier promise to create a human corridor to Slovenia was in fact only a pledge to provide a much shorter passage to Zagreb, the Croatian capital.
There was another reason for refugees to be worried: landmines. Croatia has about 500 sq km (193 sq miles) of unexploded landmines spread across its territory, a leftover from the Balkan wars in the 90s. Around 2 sq km (0.7 sq miles) line the Serbia-Croatia border, said Miljenko Vahtarić, assistant director at the Croatia Mine Action Centre. They are clearly marked, and they lie some way from Šid but as thousands now scramble for the Croatian border, said Vahtarić, "there is always the possibility that somebody could enter these suspected hazardous areas and get wounded or even killed".
In the face of such uncertainty, a smattering of refugees remained camped on the Hungarian border. Kawa, a 30-year-old agricultural engineer from north-eastern Syria, reckoned it was better to wait it out at the gates of Hungary until he got word that the Croatian route worked. "After Croatia is Slovenia," Kawa said. "And we don't know what Slovenia will do."
But most simply shrugged: whatever happens, the road ahead is less dangerous than the places they have come from. Nowar Daoud, a 23-year-old archaeology student from Hasaka, north-east Syria, was one of the last to catch a bus from the Serbian border to Croatia. "We just have to have faith," Daoud said shortly before he set off. "We'll go and find out what's happening. Maybe we can cross, maybe we can't. We live in hope."
As in every conversation on this refugee route, Daoud and his friends said that ultimately nothing will stop people fleeing the horrors of war. Halaz Shekhmous, an 18-year-old high school student travelling with Daoud and her brothers, summed things up: "We're not afraid of anything because after Daesh" – the Arab slang term for Islamic State – "nothing scares us."
Far away to the south, just after he crossed the dusty path that leads into Croatia, 40-year-old Amjad el-Omairi lifted up his shirt to make the same point. There on both his flanks were two foot-long scars, the result he said of a car bomb in Iraq. "I just want peace," said Omairi, the owner of a lingerie shop. "And I'll keep going even if I have to cross another sea to find it."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/18/world/europe/hungarian-mayor-threatens-migrants-in-homemade-action-movie.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
QuoteHungarian Mayor Threatens Migrants in Homemade Action Movie
While images of Hungarian riot police officers firing tear gas and water cannons at migrants along the Serbian border on Wednesday appalled human rights activists, the mayor of one small town in the south of Hungary remains concerned that his nation might still seem too welcoming to those fleeing war or poverty.
To remedy this, Laszlo Toroczkai, an ultranationalist with a flair for the dramatic, released a personal "Message to illegal immigrants from Hungary" on Facebook and YouTube late Wednesday, threatening them with arrest and displaying his town's security hardware in a video edited in the style of a big-budget action movie.
After a simulated chase sequence filmed from the air — featuring a helicopter, a motorcycle and two burly men on horses — Mr. Toroczkai, mayor of Asotthalom, uses Google Maps to illustrate that the land route from Serbia to Germany is longer through Hungary than it is through Croatia and Slovenia. He does not mention that it is also far more mountainous.
"Hungary is a bad choice," he intones at the end of the video. "Asotthalom is the worst."
The video, which was promoted by Mr. Toroczkai's allies in the far-right Jobbik party, quickly racked up hundreds of thousands of views and admiring comments.
As Szabolcs Panyi of Hungary's Index.hu news site reported, the video was quickly remixed and mocked by Hungarian bloggers from the opposite end of the political spectrum.
Before he was elected the mayor of Asotthalom, a village of about 4,000 people near the border with Serbia, Mr. Toroczkai was well known for his extremist views as the leader of the 64 Counties Youth Movement, which calls for Hungary to reclaim the lands outside its current borders ceded after World War I.
In its online propaganda, the movement betrays a fondness for rallies in rural settings and fascist banners.
Despite his aversion to illegal border crossing, Mr. Toroczkai was beaten up by Serbian nationalists in 2008 after sneaking across the frontier to attend a rally in the Serbian province of Vojvodina, which is home to a large population of ethnic Hungarians.
It is not clear who produced his video message, but earlier this week, Mr. Toroczkai — who was once expelled from a far-right party as too radical — posted a link on Facebook to another video, "made by a friend," showing what he called "apocalyptic" scenes at the border. That video was set to music that seemed to have been borrowed from a video game or action film.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgJRjy2Xc0c
And bonus for those who can access it (I can't in Austria): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_8H1U7r-P4
"A promotional film made by Hungary's far-right 64 Counties Youth Movement."
Nice horses.
QuoteDespite his aversion to illegal border crossing, Mr. Toroczkai was beaten up by Serbian nationalists in 2008 after sneaking across the frontier to attend a rally in the Serbian province of Vojvodina, which is home to a large population of ethnic Hungarians.
It would be funny if not for the fact that the most pathetic losers usually end up running or supporting the most murderous regimes. There must be a link somewhere.
Toroczkai is a criminal, and a nazi thug.
At Pelmonostor (Hungarian name, anyway) which is a village close to the Croatian-Hungarian border, Croatian side, about 2000 migrants have been put into an old army barracks.
Apparently there has been a bit of a situation developing from being unable/unwilling/too hungry to queue properly at the local grocery store. Some people wanted to cut lines by climbing through the windows and such, and this has escalated into an Afghans vs. Syrians argument that is re-flaring as soon as the police leaves the scene.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F992%2F9929%2F99291%2F9929179_45ae1f59fa1a03f1b03f0693d939f1bc_wm.jpg&hash=133ec9efd2ad09eb491441711608df21d911e7ed)
The Croatian opposition is demanding sending the army on the borders. Minister of Interior says that would not be necessary at this time, but the complete stop of train traffic in the country will probably happen.
:huh:
10000 are a fuck tonnes of people to handle logistically if they move together, especially so in small towns. It doesn't sound like much, but if you're not prepared it's basically a recipe for chaos no matter the nationality.
The town I grew up in (Pop. 7,800 these days) is preparing the old army barracks to accept 550 asylum seekers.
Interestingly, the place was bought after much dilly-dallying last year or so by a Syrian-born textile trader from a nearby town (he's been in German for 30+ years), who wanted to turn it into a specialist clinic for patients from the rich Gulf states. He's now rented it to the state till 2016.
Croatia 'will move migrants on'.
QuoteMigrants flooding into Croatia will be "moved on", PM Zoran Milanovic has warned, adding that his country cannot become a "migrant hotspot". He said the country's borders would not be shut completely, but it had reached its limit. His remarks came as Croatia closed seven of eight road crossings after a huge influx of migrants seeking onward passage towards northern Europe.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34291648 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34291648)
That's all well and stuff, but Slovenia is upping their border control and why would they let in asylum seekers from another EU country? I guess they still have time to dump them on a none-fenced part of the Hungary border and just walk away whistling inconspicuously .
Quote from: Liep on September 18, 2015, 06:23:53 AM
That's all well and stuff, but Slovenia is upping their border control and why would they let in asylum seekers from another EU country? I guess they still have time to dump them on a none-fenced part of the Hungary border and just walk away whistling inconspicuously .
This really is horrible. It is one thing to deny entrance from the migrants - after all, what is the point of sovereign states if you can't deny entrance through your border - but it is an entirely different thing to use vulnerable desperate people as bargaining chips and worse, some litter you want to dump in your neighbour's backyard.
The "ever closer union" :lmfao: will have to be put on hold.
Well Merkel had to go and insinuate that Germany was ready with free housing and gimedats.
Gutmensch kill.
Syt solves the refugee crisis
It's clear that a country by country solution doesn't work. One country says they'll pass on the refugees, they're overwhelmed, close their borders, then the next country steps in. Rince and repeat. What we need is more Ordnung.
1. This is an area where the EU has to work together and as an entity. It has proven that every country trying to do what they find is right only exacerbates the problem.
2. Along the border of the EU, from Spain to Greece, from Italy to Hungary, facilities need to be created that can house large numbers of refugees, where asylum seekers have a bed, something to eat and basic medical and sanitary facilities. Refugees are registered and prepared for further distribution within the EU. The stay at these facilities shouldn't last longer than a week. The facilities are EU funded and staffed.
3. The seekers are redistributed between the EU countries based on economic and demographic factors. The refugees can give a preference, and if possible this is followed (and can be used to determine quotas). Quotas can be traded. If a recognized refugee moves from the country that he was allotted to, that country will pay a fee to the target country.
4. The right to asylum must be the same throughout the EU. I.e. the same rules must be applied to a refugee whether he's processed in the UK, Romania, Estonia, Germany or Hungary. It must follow the same process everywhere - asylum seekers must know that their procedure will be the same. Arbitration in case of rejected asylum seekers needs to be before an EU court of independent judges.
5. The process for granting/rejecting asylum must be as short as possible. Of course there will be outliers where a personal situation is difficult to clarify. But in general the procedure needs to be sped up. Same goes for arbitration cases. This will require a significant amount of resources, but hey - we need jobs, right?
6. If rejected, asylum seekers can apply for "economic immigration." Proven skills, personal situation etc. feed into a points system that determines whether or not someone is granted a permit to stay and work. The points awarded and required necessary can be adjusted based on current situation and needs. They will be given 9 months to complete an integration course and find employment before they are required to leave.
7. Accepted asylum seekers and permitted economic immigrants are distributed by the above mentioned quota system.
8. During the time a refugee waits for the decision for asylum, there need to be means of keeping them occupied, with sports, language courses, work activities etc.
9. Everyone rejected needs to be deported to country of origin within a month.
you forgot step 10:
when the war is over the refugees are sent back to their country where they can help the rebuilding efforts.
Good plan Syt.
Unfortunately it requires forward planning and a feeling of long term responsibility for the individual countries as well as the EU, all of which our political class is cleary devoid of.
Yes Syt, an excellent plan except a few years too late.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 18, 2015, 07:00:40 AM
you forgot step 10:
when the war is over the refugees are sent back to their country where they can help the rebuilding efforts.
lol
Repatriating people en masse back to Arab countries? Can't be done on humanitarian grounds.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 18, 2015, 06:35:04 AM
The "ever closer union" :lmfao: will have to be put on hold.
Does it mean the Calais jungle stays where it is or it moves to Dover-Folkestone? :P
Also, the Western world has no money for anything.
Quote from: Tamas on September 18, 2015, 07:03:48 AM
Good plan Syt.
Unfortunately it requires forward planning and a feeling of long term responsibility for the individual countries as well as the EU, all of which our political class is cleary devoid of.
Yes, the EU should've made plans for how the border countries should handle asylum seekers years ago. I fear it's too late now to come up with any lasting common solutions.
Maybe in time for the next civil war close to Europe.
Quote from: Legbiter on September 18, 2015, 06:37:58 AM
Well Merkel had to go and insinuate that Germany was ready with free housing and gimedats.
Gutmensch kill.
A gimedat? :huh:
Quote from: Legbiter on September 18, 2015, 07:11:35 AM
Yes Syt, an excellent plan except a few years too late.
Sorry. :(
Quote from: garbon on September 18, 2015, 08:03:04 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on September 18, 2015, 06:37:58 AM
Well Merkel had to go and insinuate that Germany was ready with free housing and gimedats.
Gutmensch kill.
A gimedat? :huh:
Didn't you know? Immigrants both take all the jobs AND the welfare checks by refusing to work.
So it seems Croatia is loading the migrants on buses and dumping the on the Hungarian border, while a few hundred Hungarian soldiers are hurriedly laying barbed wire on the (pretty long) common border.
Also good to see that all political forces are able to overcome petty differences in this case... NOT:
Croatia: government wants to give free passage, opposition demands closing of borders
Slovenia: government wants closure of borders, opposition demands free passage
EDIT and our Foreign Minister continues to wreak havoc, calling Croatian PM "pathetic"
Quote from: Tamas on September 18, 2015, 08:04:17 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 18, 2015, 08:03:04 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on September 18, 2015, 06:37:58 AM
Well Merkel had to go and insinuate that Germany was ready with free housing and gimedats.
Gutmensch kill.
A gimedat? :huh:
Didn't you know? Immigrants both take all the jobs AND the welfare checks by refusing to work.
Well I'm wondering why 'gim
me dat' or 'gim
mie dat' which from the wording seems like some sort of attack using the 'speech' of black welfare queens would be used in this context.
Quote from: Tamas on September 18, 2015, 08:05:44 AM
So it seems Croatia is loading the migrants on buses and dumping the on the Hungarian border, while a few hundred Hungarian soldiers are hurriedly laying barbed wire on the (pretty long) common border.
Also good to see that all political forces are able to overcome petty differences in this case... NOT:
Croatia: government wants to give free passage, opposition demands closing of borders
Slovenia: government wants closure of borders, opposition demands free passage
EDIT and our Foreign Minister continues to wreak havoc, calling Croatian PM "pathetic"
Yep, the countries are acting in their own self-interest. Once Germany imposes controls to the entire eastern part of it's borders, Schengen will be dead.
Quote from: Legbiter on September 18, 2015, 08:16:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 18, 2015, 08:05:44 AM
So it seems Croatia is loading the migrants on buses and dumping the on the Hungarian border, while a few hundred Hungarian soldiers are hurriedly laying barbed wire on the (pretty long) common border.
Also good to see that all political forces are able to overcome petty differences in this case... NOT:
Croatia: government wants to give free passage, opposition demands closing of borders
Slovenia: government wants closure of borders, opposition demands free passage
EDIT and our Foreign Minister continues to wreak havoc, calling Croatian PM "pathetic"
Yep, the countries are acting in their own self-interest. Once Germany imposes controls to the entire eastern part of it's borders, Schengen will be dead.
Border controls are allowed by Schengen. The only people having the right of free movement are EU-citizens, people with a valid visum and people who have their visum-obligations waived. These migrants belong to none of these categories and can be stopped at every border, the other groups just have to show the valid papers and can travel on.
Quote from: Legbiter on September 18, 2015, 08:16:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 18, 2015, 08:05:44 AM
So it seems Croatia is loading the migrants on buses and dumping the on the Hungarian border, while a few hundred Hungarian soldiers are hurriedly laying barbed wire on the (pretty long) common border.
Also good to see that all political forces are able to overcome petty differences in this case... NOT:
Croatia: government wants to give free passage, opposition demands closing of borders
Slovenia: government wants closure of borders, opposition demands free passage
EDIT and our Foreign Minister continues to wreak havoc, calling Croatian PM "pathetic"
Yep, the countries are acting in their own self-interest. Once Germany imposes controls to the entire eastern part of it's borders, Schengen will be dead.
So much self-interest, that to appear to be doing something, Germany has started controls on the Franco-German border. Wacht am Rhein, 2015. :D
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 18, 2015, 07:22:43 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 18, 2015, 06:35:04 AM
The "ever closer union" :lmfao: will have to be put on hold.
Does it mean the Calais jungle stays where it is or it moves to Dover-Folkestone? :P
Those poor souls having to endure the horrors of living in France :hmm:
We should fund a cinema for the jungle, playing nothing but the movies of Ken Loache and other such films that highlight Britain's general crappiness.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 18, 2015, 09:25:45 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 18, 2015, 07:22:43 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 18, 2015, 06:35:04 AM
The "ever closer union" :lmfao: will have to be put on hold.
Does it mean the Calais jungle stays where it is or it moves to Dover-Folkestone? :P
Those poor souls having to endure the horrors of living in France :hmm:
If only the far too numerous Brits, who drive up prices in the hinterland (except Calais for some reason), could realise it. :(
The CSU, ruling party in Bavaria, have a conference next week. Horst Seehofer, their leader and minister president of Bavaria, has caused widespread consternation by inviting Victor Orbán to attend.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 18, 2015, 06:35:04 AM
The "ever closer union" :lmfao: will have to be put on hold.
How does this affect the five hundred million citizens and not the five hundred thousand foreigners this is about? :huh:
Quote from: Zanza on September 18, 2015, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 18, 2015, 06:35:04 AM
The "ever closer union" :lmfao: will have to be put on hold.
How does this affect the five hundred million citizens and not the five hundred thousand foreigners this is about? :huh:
Truckers hauling between Serbia and Hungary already demand reparations for lost business due to the closed border.
Austria having border controls (which admittedly they don't fully have at this moment) can be a major strain
Not to mention Germany.
Its not like it will DESTROY Europe's life. It will just proper it back straight to the 60s.
The 1960s? Border controls were only abolished in the 1990s and the border between Hungary and Serbia was supposed to always be closely guarded as Serbia is not part of Schengen.
Temporary limited controls of internal borders is one of the measures allowed and foreseen in the Schengen Agreement.
And I can't think of a single crises where the power of the EU hasn't grown as a result. I predict that this will be the same.
There's a personal use one could use this crisis for; perhaps consider your reactions to it as a 'mirror' within which to view some aspects of your character?
Quote from: Zanza on September 18, 2015, 11:58:10 AM
And I can't think of a single crises where the power of the EU hasn't grown as a result. I predict that this will be the same.
sadly.
Quote from: Zanza on September 18, 2015, 11:58:10 AM
The 1960s? Border controls were only abolished in the 1990s and the border between Hungary and Serbia was supposed to always be closely guarded as Serbia is not part of Schengen.
Temporary limited controls of internal borders is one of the measures allowed and foreseen in the Schengen Agreement.
And I can't think of a single crises where the power of the EU hasn't grown as a result. I predict that this will be the same.
They're not in schengen but they do have bilateral visa free travel (for tourist reasons) with the schengen zone I believe.
And? They still have that...
Quote from: Zanza on September 18, 2015, 02:48:53 PM
And? They still have that...
Just saying its the reason the border is very relaxed. People are allowed in pretty much at will
Wow this shitstorm just keeps growing:
The Croatians, deciding on their own, sent a trainload (about a thousand) migrants over the border into Hungary. I mean, the train just went through.
With 40 armed Croatian police officers on board.
The Hungarian authorities have taken over the train, disarmed their Croatian colleagues and arrested the train driver.
Hungary is calling it an "unprecedented border violation"
Wow.
Reading further, some correspondents are saying the Hungarian authorities were already waiting for the train with buses and there was no incident with the Croatian policemen until they were done loading the migrants to the buses
Poor driver. If Sweden was more like Hungary several of my colleagues would be in jail.
Quote from: Zanza on September 18, 2015, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 18, 2015, 06:35:04 AM
The "ever closer union" :lmfao: will have to be put on hold.
How does this affect the five hundred million citizens and not the five hundred thousand foreigners this is about? :huh:
I'm not really talking about the legal effects, more how people are feeling. In the long run European Union will take place if the people want and support it, union will not take place simply due to laws being passed. The bad feeling generated by this fiasco is a further setback and comes very shortly after all the bad feelings generated by the financial crises.
"Worried citizens" in Saxony protesting a new facility for refugees.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fgesellschaft%2Fzeitgeschehen%2F2015-09%2Fbischofswerda-rechtsextreme-gegen-fluechtlinge%2Fbitblt-820x461-a3e51d71c8dda868e84c15b7e77b675bec3f935b%2Fwide&hash=aa6e01c7f2a3ebaf12d30d47cc89e98f882607a0)
http://www.unhcr.org/55fc0e386.html
QuoteTime running out to resolve refugee emergency in Europe
GENEVA, Sept 18 (UNHCR) – Following yesterday's mayhem on the Serbian border with Croatia, which has closed some entry points, the UN refugee agency today issued a stark warning that time was running out for Europe to resolve the current refugee crisis.
UNHCR blamed the continuing absence of a coherent and united response to Europe's refugee situation as the main reason for the chaos and confusion on the Serbian border with Croatia yesterday and today and the dramatic scenes on Wednesday on the Hungarian border.
"With more than 442,440 refugees and migrants having arrived via the Mediterranean so far this year, some 2,921 deaths, and 4,000 people arriving on the Greek islands daily, the crisis is growing and being pushed from one country to another without solution," UNHCR spokesperson Adrian Edwards told a press briefing in Geneva.
He added that the suffering and risks for thousands of refugees and migrants were meanwhile increasing as uncertainty and a lack of information fuels desperation, raises the likelihood of further incidents, and stokes hostility towards people who have fled persecution and conflict and are in need of help.
"This environment is fertile ground for people-smugglers and others seeking to prey on this vulnerable population," he declared.
Edwards stressed that against the context of these events UNHCR believed Thursday's decision of the European Parliament to back plans for the relocation of an additional 120,000 people to all countries of the European Union deserved applause.
He said an Extraordinary Justice and Home Affairs Council meeting called for September 22, and the European Council meeting that has been slated for the following day (September 23) would now be crucially important for coming to agreement. "These occasions may be the last opportunity for a positive, united and coherent European response to this crisis. Time is running out," Edwards noted.
UNHCR recognizes that Europe is struggling to deal with this situation, and commends the countries and their citizens that have shown willingness to resettle refugees and respond positively to a situation which although challenging is manageable, provided that Europe is united in contributing to an effective response.
UNHCR itself this week proposed a number of measures towards the wider goal of helping Europe to collectively resolve this situation, namely:
- immediate creation of facilities in Greece to receive, assist, register and screen people arriving
- immediate start of a process, from Greece and from existing centres in Italy, for the relocation of 40,000 refugees agreed to by the Council to participating EU countries. This should be expanded by additional voluntary pledges by EU states against the new proposals of the European Commission
- an emergency package from the EU to Serbia to establish a similar capacity to properly assist, register and relocate people to other European countries
- in parallel, UNHCR urges that there be a substantial increase in opportunities for Syrian refugees hosted in neighbouring countries to Syria to access legal channels to the EU including enhanced resettlement and humanitarian admission, family reunification and humanitarian and student visas.
Both Croatia and the Hungarian police deny actual disarming of Croaian police took place. So it's just the hungarian government saying that. For some reason they still want more chaos and escalation. I am starting to think they might be building up their exit from EU.
Croatian PM did welcome the policemen and train drivers as heroes though.
And Hungary is mobilising (volunteer) army reservists
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2015, 03:41:37 AM
Both Croatia and the Hungarian police deny actual disarming of Croaian police took place. So it's just the hungarian government saying that. For some reason they still want more chaos and escalation. I am starting to think they might be building up their exit from EU.
Croatian PM did welcome the policemen and train drivers as heroes though.
And Hungary is mobilising (volunteer) army reservists
Every cloud has a silver lining.
Tamas why don't you apply for UK citizenship, start hiding your Hungarian nationality, until they elect some sensible politicians?
I will never deny my heritage, especially not because of a retard government.
Besides I don't like you shit-talking my old country mongers :p
Quote from: Syt on September 19, 2015, 12:33:52 AM
"Worried citizens" in Saxony protesting a new facility for refugees.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fgesellschaft%2Fzeitgeschehen%2F2015-09%2Fbischofswerda-rechtsextreme-gegen-fluechtlinge%2Fbitblt-820x461-a3e51d71c8dda868e84c15b7e77b675bec3f935b%2Fwide&hash=aa6e01c7f2a3ebaf12d30d47cc89e98f882607a0)
Yes, they look like the socioeconomic group who'll bear the brunt of the "cultural enrichment" a million uneducated Sunni Muslim males will bring to Germany. Merkel has no skin in the game, she'll never have to share a zip code with them.
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2015, 08:04:39 AM
I will never deny my heritage, especially not because of a retard government.
And if refugees and migrants say that?
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2015, 08:04:39 AM
I will never deny my heritage, especially not because of a retard government.
Magyar pride! :cool:
Quote from: mongers on September 19, 2015, 08:30:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2015, 08:04:39 AM
I will never deny my heritage, especially not because of a retard government.
And if refugees and migrants say that?
I don't understand.
Quote from: Legbiter on September 19, 2015, 08:27:47 AM
Yes, they look like the socioeconomic group who'll bear the brunt of the "cultural enrichment" a million uneducated Sunni Muslim males will bring to Germany. Merkel has no skin in the game, she'll never have to share a zip code with them.
I find that rather unlikely. Merkel lives in Berlin Mitte, which has 18.3% foreigners and 28.5% with "migratory background" (i.e. parents or grandparents that migrated to Germany after 1950). I can't find any numbers for Bischofswerda, but unless it is the extreme exception from Saxony (2.8% foreigners) in general, it will have much lower numbers. So based on zip code, Merkel almost certainly has more skin in the game than those people. As it happens, this is a general trend: The resistance against immigration is the highest in those areas of Germany where there is least foreigners.
Quote from: mongers on September 19, 2015, 08:30:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2015, 08:04:39 AM
I will never deny my heritage, especially not because of a retard government.
And if refugees and migrants say that?
It will be just like it was when the migrant tamas said that on languish? :hmm:
Quote from: Zanza on September 19, 2015, 10:28:23 AMI find that rather unlikely. Merkel lives in Berlin Mitte, which has 18.3% foreigners and 28.5% with "migratory background" (i.e. parents or grandparents that migrated to Germany after 1950).
I stand corrected. She has skin in the game.
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2015, 08:04:39 AM
I will never deny my heritage, especially not because of a retard government.
That's silly. Patriotism must be one of the most pointless irrationalisms left in the world. At least with religion you are hoping for eternal bliss...
I wouldn't call it patriotism, at least that's not what I meant.
I am a Magyar, for better or worse. It defines my cultural heritage but not the kind of person I am. eg. mongers and the other Brits here are really nice people but there are plenty of asswipes in Britain. They are nice Brits, not nice because they are British.
And even if you want to deny your heritage/ancestry you can't, its a part of you.
Even if you despise your Polishness, all you can be is a Pole who doesn't like to be one.
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2015, 12:58:57 PM
And even if you want to deny your heritage/ancestry you can't, its a part of you.
Even if you despise your Polishness, all you can be is a Pole who doesn't like to be one.
Hey now, there are plenty throughout history who have found a solution to this dilemma...they are called "Americans". :)
Quote from: Tonitrus on September 19, 2015, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2015, 12:58:57 PM
And even if you want to deny your heritage/ancestry you can't, its a part of you.
Even if you despise your Polishness, all you can be is a Pole who doesn't like to be one.
Hey now, there are plenty throughout history who have found a solution to this dilemma...they are called "Americans". :)
Not all Americans are Hitler.
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2015, 12:58:57 PM
I wouldn't call it patriotism, at least that's not what I meant.
I am a Magyar, for better or worse. It defines my cultural heritage but not the kind of person I am. eg. mongers and the other Brits here are really nice people but there are plenty of asswipes in Britain. They are nice Brits, not nice because they are British.
And even if you want to deny your heritage/ancestry you can't, its a part of you.
Even if you despise your Polishness, all you can be is a Pole who doesn't like to be one.
Ok I understand your point.
Ok, I gotta say I am really getting tired of my friends and work colleagues posting really really REALLY racist shit on Facebook. Also in "real life" I started to refuse to engage in any talk about refugees and immigration in my social circle. It turns out only my (British) boss and another colleague at work has a roughly same views on the crisis as I do - everybody else seems to fall somewhere between Martim Silva and UKIP. :yucky:
I can kinda see now how this nation could have aided and abetted Holocaust.
The EU governments have finally agreed on the migrant quota plan, with negative votes from a few of the usual suspects:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/22/eu-governments-divisive-quotas-deal-share-120000-refugees (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/22/eu-governments-divisive-quotas-deal-share-120000-refugees)
QuoteEU governments push through divisive deal to share 120,000 refugees
Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania vote against decision to impose quotas, as lack of consensus threatens to feed resentment
European governments have pushed through by majority vote a deal to share 120,000 refugees between most of the countries of the EU, in a divisive compromise that sparked fury within parts of central Europe and disappointment among refugee agencies over what they say is a token response to the continent's biggest migration crisis in seven decades.
After a months-long battle that the UN warned was a threat to European unity, the EU's interior ministers finally agreed on Tuesday to the principle of sharing refugees between member states.
But it was a decision fiercely opposed by several countries in central and eastern Europe. In a highly unusual move that betrayed the deep lack of consensus on the issue, the decision was put to a majority ballot in which the Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia all voted against creating a mandatory quota.
The decision fed central European governments' resentment of what they perceive as western – and especially German – bullying. In the minutes after the decision, Slovakian and Czech politicians reacted with anger to a decision that they claimed would alter the fabric of European society.
Britain has refused to take part in the scheme, having separately promised to resettle just 4,000 refugees this year, and 20,000 over five years – the first few of whom arrived on Tuesday, the UK government announced without giving further details.
Theresa May, the UK home secretary, declared that "we need, as Europe, to get on with the job", while simultaneously disengaging from any common endeavour. "The UK will not be participating in the [refugee-sharing] scheme."
Uniquely in the EU, Britain has refused to take part in the resettlement of the 120,000 people and has a legal exemption from having to take part. The other two countries with similar optouts, Ireland and Denmark, are offering to participate.
Of the 120,000 to be divided between the remaining EU states, the nine countries of central and eastern Europe are being asked to take only around 10,000, while Germany and France between them will take double that number. But the Slovak prime minister, Robert Fico, nevertheless said the vote was unprecedented in EU history and vowed to defy it. "As long as I am prime minister, mandatory quotas will not be implemented on Slovak territory," Fico told the parliament's EU affairs committee.
The Czech government had earlier warned that any attempt to impose such a scheme would be unworkable and could end in "big ridicule" for governments and EU authorities. The country's interior minister continued this theme after the vote, tweeting: "We will soon realise that the emperor has no clothes. Common sense lost today."
The victors of the vote applauded the move, with the French interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, calling it a "testament to the capacity of Europe to take responsibility and progress".
But, speaking to Reuters, a diplomat from one of the countries opposed to the plan described the atmosphere around the council table as terrible, adding: "This is a bad day for Europe."
Hungary said it accepted the decision, but questioned how workable it would be in practice. Zoltán Kovács, the Hungarian government spokesman, said: "We believe it will be impossible to keep people assigned to, say, Slovakia if they want to go to Germany. How do you keep people in one country if they want to go join their relatives who live in another EU country or want the more favourable social welfare benefits in that country?"
Refugee advocates have also questioned the ability of new quotas to meaningfully deal with a wave of migration that already quadruples the numbers covered by the deal. UN officials praised Europe's politicians for finally having the political courage to agree to the principle of sharing the refugee burden. Peter Sutherland, the UN's special representative for international migration, said: "The principle is so important and reflects such a change of thinking that in itself this is a very significant development."
But Sutherland and his colleagues also warned that the number of refugees the EU has agreed to share among its members is far too small given the scale of the crisis. Carlotta Sami, a spokeswoman for the UN refugee agency, UNHCR, said: "The relocation plan in itself will not be sufficient to solve the crisis. It's just 120,000 over two years. Considering that as of today almost 480,000 people have arrived [in Europe this year by boat], and 84% are coming from refugee-producing countries, this is clearly something that is not enough. The EU states will have to revise these figures and increase the numbers."
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development forecast on Tuesday that the numbers entering the EU this year would exceed 1 million, with more than 400,000 staying long-term in the end.
But the issue of the 120,000 became a signature contest because, along with a previous agreement to share another 40,000, it was the first time that an attempt had been made to agree refugee quotas across the EU.
National ambassadors from the 28 EU states spent the last three days drafting a 39-page deal for the governments, but key issues remained open amid deep divisions between Berlin and Brussels on the one hand and the newer EU member states of central Europe which are reluctant to take in refugees.
A summit of EU leaders on migration is being held on Wednesday in Brussels at the behest of Angela Merkel, the German chancellor. The leaders did not want their summit to be hijacked by an unseemly squabble over quotas and ordered the interior ministers to strike a deal.
A little more than half are to be moved to the rest of the EU from Greece and Italy. The remaining 54,000, initially planned to relieve Hungary, whose government takes the hardest anti-immigration line in the EU and refuses to accept the help, will be reserved for other needy countries on the Balkan migratory route, such as Croatia and Slovenia. If the 54,000 are not resettled within 18 months, more refugees can be moved from Greece and Italy.
EU governments have been battling over the policy since May as the numbers arriving have risen drastically, resulting in Hungary building razorwire fences on its southern borders and passing laws this week authorising the army to use teargas and rubber bullets against refugees. It is engaged in a war of words with Germany, Croatia, Romania, Austria, and the European commission.
Germany unilaterally opened its doors to Syrians last month, before backtracking and reasserting national border controls in the middle of Europe's free-travel Schengen area. On Tuesday the German rail operator, Deutsche Bahn, announced it was halting traffic to Austria and Hungary until 4 October.
Apart from the fight over quotas, much of Tuesday's negotiations focused on how to keep refugees and migrants out through quicker deportation procedures, the faster screening and fingerprinting of people arriving on the EU's southern borders, and helping neighbouring countries in the Balkans and the Middle East, notably Turkey, to stop people heading for the EU.
The latter prevention and pre-emption strategies will also preoccupy Wednesday's summit. The policies presuppose substantial increases in staffing and resources for EU police and border agencies and the ceding of national authority over borders to the same EU agencies, none of which is proceeding very quickly.
The UNHCR said the EU policies being fought over were already past their sell-by date, with the figure of 120,000, for example, equalling the sum of those currently arriving in the EU in less than three weeks.
While the vote to have obligatory European sharing of refugees will be applauded by NGOs and EU integrationists as a badly needed tonic for common policy-making, it remains to be seen how the decision to force a vote on one of the most toxic issues in European politics will play out.
On Monday evening, the Croatian president, Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović, accused Merkel of causing the chaos in central Europe through her policy flip-flops, first declaring that Germany's doors were open to Syrians and waiving rules about seeking asylum in the first EU country they enter and then, when the stampede for Germany got under way, reversing that and instituting national border controls with Austria.
Grabar-Kitarović said Merkel had taken her foot off the brake, sending many speeding to Germany, then stepped back on the brake, causing a massive traffic jam in nearby countries.
The Polish government, which dropped its opposition to quotas in the vote, is also likely to be kicked out of office next month, replaced by rightwing nationalists who are much tougher on immigration and have been delivering alarmist statements about sharia law in parts of the EU.
The vote in Brussels was met with derision by Ukip. "There is now no escaping the fact that immigration will be decided by Brussels," Ukip MEP Jane Collins said. "What we have witnessed today is four countries who wish to control who settles in their country being outvoted by foreign governments. Brussels have taken another giant step into territory which should be the sole right of national governments to decide upon."
The migration crisis is the biggest issue to divide eastern and western Europe since the splits over the Iraq war in 2003. But that was before the former Soviet bloc countries were in the EU.
Elsewhere in Europe, while there is admiration for Merkel's generous asylum policies, there is little appetite to emulate them and, following Berlin's role in July in dictating the terms of Greece's new eurozone bailout, a wariness that in every big European crisis the rest are having to dance to Germany's tune.
Polish morons are saying our government "betrayed Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia". Wtf. I hate being from Eastern Europe. This is why we can never have nice things.
How do you share them out? Refugees don't want to go to any old country.
Quote from: The Brain on September 22, 2015, 04:14:31 PM
How do you share them out? Refugees don't want to go to any old country.
It's the refugees that are stuck in Greece, Italy, and have run out of money or something. It has nothing to do with refugees coming to Sweden, they'll stay there don't worry.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/23/refugee-crisis-eu-summit-amid-resentment-over-quota-deal-live-updates#block-56027019e4b0da121189da0a
QuoteHungary's anti immigration prime minister Viktor Orbán is not in Brussels for the summit. He's visiting Bavaria instead.
He is holding talks with the prime minister of Bavaria Horst Seehofer, who praised Hungary's tough stance on immigration over the weekend. Germany could not have gained control over the refugee situation if Orbán had not decided to close his country's borders, Seehofer told the German all-news channel N24. "We will be thankful for what Orbán does", he said.
Hungary has indicated it will reluctantly accept Europe's decision on quota, but questioned the feasibility of the plan. Zoltán Kovács, a government spokesman, said: "We believe it will be impossible to keep people assigned to, say, Slovakia if they want to go to Germany. How do you keep people in one country if they want to go join their relatives who live in another EU country or want the more favourable social welfare benefits in that country?"
Orbán was greeted with protesters.
Bavaria :rolleyes:
Well, the CSU are contrarian on principle, but under Seehofer they seem to have become more insane than before (it doesn't help that Seehofer often contradicts himself and his views/demands on a regular basis).
Its funny that Orban is the hero of the anti-migrant crowd in Europe: Just last weekend Hungary sent 12 000 migrants to Austria in cooperation with Croatia.
Croatia, BTW, holds around 44 000 of them still, this is the amount they have received since Hungary closed the Serbian border. So, what, 5 days?
Speaking of the border-closing, when there was that incident at the border crossing with the rioting and police brutality and all, later in western Hungary the anti-terror police (they are more like SWAT, really) arrested a Syrian guy who was accused of instigating the riot then using it to sneak in to Hungary.
First the authorities were laughed at because they pointed out his "islamist leanings" due to his membership in some kind of huge international Islamic organisation.
But it seems they have found 7 different passports with the guy, ALL of them having valid Schengen visas. So I guess something had to be fishy wit him, if he had to convince families to assault a line of riot police just so he can sneak in.
Quote from: Syt on September 23, 2015, 05:09:41 AM
Well, the CSU are contrarian on principle, but under Seehofer they seem to have become more insane than before (it doesn't help that Seehofer often contradicts himself and his views/demands on a regular basis).
Do you mean Seehofer often flips flops à la Merkel?
KC4?
Not surprising those nation states, which have worked so long to purify themselves, are not enthusiastic about becoming multi-national societies. But what can you do?
http://www.thelocal.de/20150923/orban-visit-sparks-outrage-in-bavaria
QuoteOrban blasts Merkel over 'moral imperialism'
Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban on Wednesday rejected what he called German Chancellor Angela Merkel's "moral imperialism" as he outlined his own rival plan to tackle Europe's migrant crisis.
When asked what he expected from Merkel while Europe grapples with an influx of asylum-seekers, the hardline leader grinned: "I have a long list."
Orban accused Merkel of trying to impose her vision of an open EU on the rest of the bloc.
"The most important thing is that there should be no moral imperialism," he said during a visit to the southern German state of Bavaria.
Orban, speaking ahead of an EU summit in Brussels later Wednesday, said his country had a "democratic right" to a different approach.
The summit takes place amid a growing east-west split within the bloc after ministers forced through a controversial deal Tuesday to share out 120,000 refugees.
"I don't doubt Germany's right to define its moral obligations for itself. They can decide if they accept every refugee or not... (but) that should only be compulsory for them," Orban said.
"We are Hungarians however, we cannot think with German minds. Hungary should have the right to control the impact of a mass migration," he said.
"The Hungarian people don't want this, we ask that the wishes of Hungarians be respected."
Orban revived recent proposals in what he called a six-point plan toresolve the crisis.
They included persuading Greece, one of the EU countries on the front lines of the migrant influx, to hand over control of its borders to EU countries willing to help police them, as well as separating asylum-seekers from "economic migrants" before they reach the passport-free Schengen zone.
Global contingents
Orban said he would also press fellow EU leaders to agree on a common list of safe countries of origin to which migrants can be returned, and to pitch in one percent of their EU income and their EU contributions to an emergency fund.
He urged the bloc to work closely with key non-EU countries playing a key role in the crisis such as Russia and Turkey, and the creation of a global system of migrant "contingents" for countries to take in.
Overriding opposition from eastern European states, including Hungary, interior ministers approved plans Tuesday that require countries to take their share of the hundreds of thousands of migrants who have overwhelmed states such as Greece and Italy.
The deal was widely seen as a victory for Berlin in the German media, just as Germany expects up to one million asylum-seekers this year and has been clamouring for a "fair" distribution of migrants throughout the bloc.
In response to the influx, Hungary has closed its border with Serbia and introduced draconian laws to punish those crossing into the country illegally.
Orban said Wednesday that he would only consider voluntary measures to accept asylum-seekers.
"Quotas and contingents are two different things. We reject the former, but are ready to discuss the latter," he said.
Orban was invited to Germany by one of the most vocal critics of Merkel's migrant policies within her conservative bloc, Bavarian premier Horst Seehofer.
Auschwitz survivors' anger
Orban's appearance at Bavaria's governing Christian Social Union (CSU) conference has provoked outrage over his harsh policies towards refugees and his whitewashing of his country's fascist past.
Christoph Heubner, vice-President of the International Auschwitz Committee, made up of survivors of the Nazi death camp in occupied Poland, said on Wednesday that it was "an absurd and scandalous signal that the red carpet is now being rolled out for [Orban] in Bavaria."
Orban had tried to revise history by rehabilitating anti-Semitic politicians from Hungary's past who shared responsibility for the deportations of Hungarian Jews, Heubner said.
Hungarian Jews were the largest single group among the 1.1 million people killed in the extermination camp at Auschwitz.
"Viktor Orban has led Hungarian society far to the right. Around him march strongly anti-semitic groups," Heubner added.
"What does the CSU want to learn from Orban? How one holds off refugees in need of protection and fleeing civil war with tear gas, truncheons and water cannon?" asked Markus Rinderspacher, leader of the Social Democratic Party (SPD) group in the Bavarian state parliament.
Orban has come in for criticism from EU partners for building a fence on his country's border with Serbia - a move aimed to keep refugees out - and for saying that Muslim migrants threaten Europe's Christian identity.
"We should be strongly confronting Orban, we can't fawn over him," said Green party leader in the Bundestag (German parliament) Anton Hofreiter, himself a native of Bavaria.
Politicians weren't the only ones criticizing the CSU – Angela Merkel's strongly conservative allies from the southern powerhouse state – for its decision to invite the Hungarian leader.
I forgot when Germany invaded and forced Hungary to join the EU after a bloody conquest.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2F-kcK0ZFgCHw%2F0.jpg&hash=4225094ab4f9f73fd1c0b614bb5a4bf46aee27cf)
Quote from: Syt on September 23, 2015, 09:18:45 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2F-kcK0ZFgCHw%2F0.jpg&hash=4225094ab4f9f73fd1c0b614bb5a4bf46aee27cf)
That is Austria. He is accusing Merkel not...whomever is in charge in Austria.
Uhm, no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor
Quote from: Syt on September 23, 2015, 09:18:45 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2F-kcK0ZFgCHw%2F0.jpg&hash=4225094ab4f9f73fd1c0b614bb5a4bf46aee27cf)
:D
Quote from: Syt on September 23, 2015, 09:23:16 AM
Uhm, no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor
Ah I thought that was the war over Hungary after the death of Albert. It looked too fancy for the 10th century :P
Probably just means I learned all my history from EU2.
Anyway I note that Otto I failed to get Hungary into the Holy Roman Empire.
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 09:56:28 AM
Anyway I note that Otto I failed to get Hungary into the Holy Roman Empire.
Far more important: he kicked them out. :P Till 955 Magyars were rampaging all over Europe. Otto beat them at Lechfeld and forced a peace treaty after which there was a major fortification program in the HRE.
Quote from: Syt on September 23, 2015, 10:06:15 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 09:56:28 AM
Anyway I note that Otto I failed to get Hungary into the Holy Roman Empire.
Far more important: he kicked them out. :P Till 955 Magyars were rampaging all over Europe. Otto beat them at Lechfeld and forced a peace treaty after which there was a major fortification program in the HRE.
Well, looks like he had the right idea about immigrants then - then his successors grew lax and let Magyars into Europe - and now we have to deal with the likes of Orban.
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/09/23/439260519/a-german-town-in-decline-sees-refugees-as-the-path-to-revival
QuoteTucked away in the northeastern corner of Germany, not far from the Baltic coast, Friedland is a peaceful, rural town of about 5,000 people.
It wasn't always so quiet here. When it was part of communist East Germany, Friedland was an industrial hub, where massive processing plants turned beets into sugar and potatoes into powdered starch.
Like many others in the town, Wilfried Block, 58, used to work at the local potato starch factory. But when East and West Germany became one country again in 1990, things changed.
"The factories were shut down after reunification, and it hit us hard," Block says. "We lost 2,000 jobs in Friedland alone."
Block was lucky and found another job: He's been the mayor here since 1992. He says the town has invested heavily in regenerating itself.
"Our once gray, industrial town is now green and pleasant. But we've failed to keep people from leaving," he says.
Since reunification, more than 3,000 people, most of them young, have left Friedland in pursuit of job prospects in the West. They've left behind a diminished and aging population.
Block hopes to reverse the trend and sees a golden opportunity in the many migrants currently arriving in Germany.
This demographic shift is also typical in western Germany, but for different reasons. There are plenty of jobs and the economy is buoyant, but with one of the lowest birth rates in the world, Germany is short of workers — particularly in the skilled sectors.
Most all of Europe faces similar demographic challenges, but some analysts say that if properly handled, the current migrant crisis could be turned into the basis for future economic growth in Europe.
Just saying. If Europe wants to be a world leading society again they need these people -_-
One of the things I don't get about this and about the Eurozone crisis is how Germany got into the situation that everything the EU does is perceived as basically just what Germany wants. In this case, 24 countries voted in favor, four against. Yet the four rail apparently exclusively against Germany. I guess it makes me more understanding about how Americans feel when they get all the blame alone for e.g. invading Iraq.
Yes though that is a bad example. The Iraq invasion was pretty much our own initiative.
Quote from: Zanza on September 23, 2015, 12:30:25 PM
One of the things I don't get about this and about the Eurozone crisis is how Germany got into the situation that everything the EU does is perceived as basically just what Germany wants. In this case, 24 countries voted in favor, four against. Yet the four rail apparently exclusively against Germany. I guess it makes me more understanding about how Americans feel when they get all the blame alone for e.g. invading Iraq.
Germany is the most influential nation in the EU. If Germany had been against it then the vote would likely have been different. Same with the American's influence in some international endeavors. As an example the Canadian military would never have participated in Afghanistan if the Americans had not led the way. I suspect many other nations are in the same situation.
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 12:23:52 PM
Just saying. If Europe wants to be a world leading society again they need these people -_-
not really
That's not an argument. If the other 23 nations had thought it's a bad idea, they could have voted against this and isolated Germany. Germany's power in the EU is soft power. We usually find enough like-minded countries to have a majority.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 23, 2015, 01:00:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 12:23:52 PM
Just saying. If Europe wants to be a world leading society again they need these people -_-
not really
I don't follow the logic. Small town loses people because it has no jobs for them. So migrants coming is an opportunity... to have more unemployed people in town?
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 08:07:46 AM
Not surprising those nation states, which have worked so long to purify themselves, are not enthusiastic about becoming multi-national societies. But what can you do?
multinational states don't have a good trackrecord, one wonders why a certain section of the populace wants to turn the whole world into a Balkansoup
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 23, 2015, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 08:07:46 AM
Not surprising those nation states, which have worked so long to purify themselves, are not enthusiastic about becoming multi-national societies. But what can you do?
multinational states don't have a good trackrecord, one wonders why a certain section of the populace wants to turn the whole world into a Balkansoup
Well the richest country in the world is a multi-ethnic state, so I wouldn't exactly say there's a bad track record.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 23, 2015, 01:14:26 PM
multinational states don't have a good trackrecord, one wonders why a certain section of the populace wants to turn the whole world into a Balkansoup
I am just giving my opinion here. Euro-land can handle this crisis however they want. My world already is Balkansoup.
Edit: Oh wait you were responding to the other post. I get why they do not want all these people, it would bring pretty significant changes to their societies.
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 12:23:52 PM
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/09/23/439260519/a-german-town-in-decline-sees-refugees-as-the-path-to-revival
QuoteTucked away in the northeastern corner of Germany, not far from the Baltic coast, Friedland is a peaceful, rural town of about 5,000 people.
It wasn't always so quiet here. When it was part of communist East Germany, Friedland was an industrial hub, where massive processing plants turned beets into sugar and potatoes into powdered starch.
Like many others in the town, Wilfried Block, 58, used to work at the local potato starch factory. But when East and West Germany became one country again in 1990, things changed.
"The factories were shut down after reunification, and it hit us hard," Block says. "We lost 2,000 jobs in Friedland alone."
Block was lucky and found another job: He's been the mayor here since 1992. He says the town has invested heavily in regenerating itself.
"Our once gray, industrial town is now green and pleasant. But we've failed to keep people from leaving," he says.
Since reunification, more than 3,000 people, most of them young, have left Friedland in pursuit of job prospects in the West. They've left behind a diminished and aging population.
Block hopes to reverse the trend and sees a golden opportunity in the many migrants currently arriving in Germany.
This demographic shift is also typical in western Germany, but for different reasons. There are plenty of jobs and the economy is buoyant, but with one of the lowest birth rates in the world, Germany is short of workers — particularly in the skilled sectors.
Most all of Europe faces similar demographic challenges, but some analysts say that if properly handled, the current migrant crisis could be turned into the basis for future economic growth in Europe.
Just saying. If Europe wants to be a world leading society again they need these people -_-
I doubt any immigrant will move anywhere near Friedland. It's really in the middle of nowhere. A bit closer to Poland and it might be interesting for affluent Polish commuters from Stettin that look for a cheap place to build a house. I heard some of the villages near Stettin try to attract Poles these days.
In general, I doubt that the refugees will be an economic benefit for Germany and if so, it will be minor. The motivation to allow them in should be what asylum is about, giving them peace from persecution and war. For economic migrants is fair to make a cost-benefit analysis and only accept those that will have a positive effect on the economy, i.e. well-qualified ones.
But none of them will move to Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. There are no jobs and just nothing there. Realistically, the area there will depopulate and there is not much we can do about it.
Quote from: Zanza on September 23, 2015, 01:03:15 PM
That's not an argument. If the other 23 nations had thought it's a bad idea, they could have voted against this and isolated Germany. Germany's power in the EU is soft power. We usually find enough like-minded countries to have a majority.
Yeah, but that is what we are talking about. Germany leads the way.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 23, 2015, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 08:07:46 AM
Not surprising those nation states, which have worked so long to purify themselves, are not enthusiastic about becoming multi-national societies. But what can you do?
multinational states don't have a good trackrecord, one wonders why a certain section of the populace wants to turn the whole world into a Balkansoup
I don't understand what you mean here. :huh:
Quote from: Barrister on September 23, 2015, 01:18:34 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 23, 2015, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 08:07:46 AM
Not surprising those nation states, which have worked so long to purify themselves, are not enthusiastic about becoming multi-national societies. But what can you do?
multinational states don't have a good trackrecord, one wonders why a certain section of the populace wants to turn the whole world into a Balkansoup
Well the richest country in the world is a multi-ethnic state, so I wouldn't exactly say there's a bad track record.
I am not sure what he meant by "multinational". Perhaps he meant multi-ethnic. If he did he is clearly wrong. But perhaps he meant something else?
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 23, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
I am not sure what he meant by "multinational". Perhaps he meant multi-ethnic. If he did he is clearly wrong. But perhaps he meant something else?
I used the word and I meant it in a multi-ethnic sense. I guess I am used to the idea that a 'nation' is the political expression of an 'ethnic group'.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 23, 2015, 01:00:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 12:23:52 PM
Just saying. If Europe wants to be a world leading society again they need these people -_-
not really
Hard to be dynamic while clinging to 19th and 20th century ideas. Not to mention an aging population, which breeds conservatism. And actually just does not breed period.
I am not unsympathetic to why Euro-land is not taking them all in with open arms. I disagree but I understand. But they need to have some kind of plan, their little nation states are incapable of handling this crisis (or any crisis really) on their own.
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2015, 01:44:21 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 23, 2015, 01:00:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 12:23:52 PM
Just saying. If Europe wants to be a world leading society again they need these people -_-
not really
Why not?
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics
I suppose Crazy Ivan meant a state like Austria-Hungary, Belgium or Yugoslavia, which were/are multi-national in that they were nation states of more than one nation understood in an ethnic sense. That's a completely different beast from the likes of the US or Canada, which have one dominant national culture but one that is not based around the concept of ethnicity.
Valmy quoted an article which said that the refugees could be the basis for economic growth in Europe and Valmy concurred on this. Crazy Ivan said that he disagrees.
I find the theory that they'll be a significant econimic benefit questionable and would rather expect them to be an economic negative - at least in the midterm.
I also find the general idea that Europe needs more young people understandable from a demographics perspective, but right now there are 23 million unemployeds and many of them young people in the EU, so I am not sure if the main obstacle to economic growth in Europe right now is lack of workforce. Adding to that workforce right now will likely not have a net positive effect.
So the I find the whole economic argument why we should take in refugees implausible. I do think that there are other good reasons to take them in though.
Well they need food, housing, healthcare etc etc etc, lots of lefties think that any and all spending is good for the economy.
Quote from: Zanza on September 23, 2015, 01:58:43 PM
Valmy quoted an article which said that the refugees could be the basis for economic growth in Europe and Valmy concurred on this. Crazy Ivan said that he disagrees.
I find the theory that they'll be a significant econimic benefit questionable and would rather expect them to be an economic negative - at least in the midterm.
I also find the general idea that Europe needs more young people understandable from a demographics perspective, but right now there are 23 million unemployeds and many of them young people in the EU, so I am not sure if the main obstacle to economic growth in Europe right now is lack of workforce. Adding to that workforce right now will likely not have a net positive effect.
So the I find the whole economic argument why we should take in refugees implausible. I do think that there are other good reasons to take them in though.
I agree. By selling a moral issue as a self-interest issue we risk losing both. This is about helping people in need - this may be in a long term "enlightened self interest" but in a short term it's about using our resources to help people who need our help (and are in a much worse situation than we are) - I suppose this is time to show that Europe is really a part of Christian culture (even if it evolved into the Enlightenment).
I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 23, 2015, 02:15:55 PM
I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.
I don't think this is the argument as much as saying that this is irrelevant. You act in a humane way not because it is profitable but because you are a human being.
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2015, 02:15:30 PM
I agree. By selling a moral issue as a self-interest issue we risk losing both.
What is the moral principle at stake here?
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 23, 2015, 02:15:55 PM
I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.
OK.
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 02:20:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2015, 02:15:30 PM
I agree. By selling a moral issue as a self-interest issue we risk losing both.
What is the moral principle at stake here?
Acting morally is not done out of self-interest? :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2015, 02:19:36 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 23, 2015, 02:15:55 PM
I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.
I don't think this is the argument as much as saying that this is irrelevant. You act in a humane way not because it is profitable but because you are a human being.
So...one should never discuss the benefits of immigration because it cheapens all the penance of sins that has to be carried out? I don't follow.
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2015, 02:25:00 PM
Acting morally is not done out of self-interest? :huh:
Ok. Acting moral with regards to what principle is not done out of self-interest?
To me it makes sense to keep these two issues separate.
1. How can we enrich ourselves?
2. How can we help others who are in desperate need?
It seems unlikely to me that treating them as the same issue is good for any of them.
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2015, 02:15:30 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 23, 2015, 01:58:43 PM
Valmy quoted an article which said that the refugees could be the basis for economic growth in Europe and Valmy concurred on this. Crazy Ivan said that he disagrees.
I find the theory that they'll be a significant econimic benefit questionable and would rather expect them to be an economic negative - at least in the midterm.
I also find the general idea that Europe needs more young people understandable from a demographics perspective, but right now there are 23 million unemployeds and many of them young people in the EU, so I am not sure if the main obstacle to economic growth in Europe right now is lack of workforce. Adding to that workforce right now will likely not have a net positive effect.
So the I find the whole economic argument why we should take in refugees implausible. I do think that there are other good reasons to take them in though.
I agree. By selling a moral issue as a self-interest issue we risk losing both. This is about helping people in need - this may be in a long term "enlightened self interest" but in a short term it's about using our resources to help people who need our help (and are in a much worse situation than we are) - I suppose this is time to show that Europe is really a part of Christian culture (even if it evolved into the Enlightenment).
I'm not opposed to taking in refugees, I am however, opposed to all of them staying forever. That's not going to work. These people need to go back to rebuild their own societies. One of the reasons, if not the main reason, why experts in the field of refugee-handling more often than not are in favour of harbouring refugees as close to their countries of origin as possible.
And then there's the matter of integration in the host-societies for those people who are allowed to stay. The belgian "Dienst Vreemdelingenzaken" (the part of the state that deals with the influx of migrants, asylumseekers, familyreunion, etc..) calculates that every request/acceptence needs to be multiplied by 6 (through followup-migration) on average. Depending on how long this goes on that's a lot op people. I'm not quite sure Belgium can keep handling that given the sorry state of public finances, height of taxes and overburdened social services, coupled with the reality that the integration of the past few migrantwaves (the one between 2002-2008 resulted in a population rise of about 800K, on a population that was then a bit in the 10 million) is quite dismal.
edit: and the way all of this is handled now, alongside with a few decades of political correct finger-wagging and abuse of the concepts of asylum-seekers vs. economical migrants, is pissing away popular goodwill towards the people in need, the concept of asylum and the EU. All at once.
Quote from: The Brain on September 23, 2015, 02:34:29 PM
To me it makes sense to keep these two issues separate.
1. How can we enrich ourselves?
2. How can we help others who are in desperate need?
It seems unlikely to me that treating them as the same issue is good for any of them.
This.
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2015, 01:47:49 PM
I suppose Crazy Ivan meant a state like Austria-Hungary, Belgium or Yugoslavia, which were/are multi-national in that they were nation states of more than one nation understood in an ethnic sense. That's a completely different beast from the likes of the US or Canada, which have one dominant national culture but one that is not based around the concept of ethnicity.
yeah, that fits the bill. But the multinational was of course quoted. Valmy has, since then, cleared up the use of the term in the post I quoted.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 23, 2015, 01:23:07 PM
I am not sure what he meant by "multinational". Perhaps he meant multi-ethnic. If he did he is clearly wrong. But perhaps he meant something else?
more than enough multi-ethic countries that are basically shitty places to live and that have one or more ongoing conflicts of an ethnic nature.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 23, 2015, 02:15:55 PM
I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.
Europe has high unemployment as it is, so lack of workforce is not an issue except for some specialists, which are unlikely to be found among the refugees. The negative birth rate is not the cause of Europe's current economic malaise. At most you could say it stifles long term investment. As it happens underinvestment is an issue, but higher state consumption to feed refugees won't change that and will not spur relevant private investment and the minor value-add is negligible. So asylum is not bad for the economy, it does not add anything either so and will distribute the available wealth among more people.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 23, 2015, 02:37:38 PM
I'm not opposed to taking in refugees, I am however, opposed to all of them staying forever. That's not going to work. These people need to go back to rebuild their own societies. One of the reasons, if not the main reason, why experts in the field of refugee-handling more often than not are in favour of harbouring refugees as close to their countries of origin as possible.
This only makes sense if the cause of them leaving is a temporary one. I'd love to believe that ISIS is a temporary problem - but with exactly zero appetite in the West for taking them on directly (at least, so far) as long as they keep their massacres, slavery, etc. in their own territory ... that seems a trifle optimistic.
After all, the whole UN "Palestinian Refugee" infrastructure (including oodles of 'experts') are in favour of keeping the Palestinians in "temporary" camps around their country of origin ... and look how well that's worked out for
them.
In contrast, one might add, the Israelis have taken in an approximately equal number of Mizraim (Middle Eastern Jews) from the rest of the ME, and instead of putting them in camps awaiting a highly unlikely return - they have attempted to integrate them. Now, they are Jewish, which adds an element of commonality, but culturally ME Jews and Ashkenazim (Jews from Europe originally) are nothing alike. There have of course been plenty of problems with this approach, but I dare say it is nothing as compared with the problems ME countries have had because Palestinians have been kept in "camps" for decades.
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2015, 01:47:49 PM
I suppose Crazy Ivan meant a state like Austria-Hungary, Belgium or Yugoslavia, which were/are multi-national in that they were nation states of more than one nation understood in an ethnic sense. That's a completely different beast from the likes of the US or Canada, which have one dominant national culture but one that is not based around the concept of ethnicity.
A slight correction: Canada is expressly a nation founded on
two dominant cultures/ethnicities: British and French. This is both a historical fact and literally hard-wired into Canada's Constitution. A great deal of Canada's internal political issues are caused by the fact that, while "English Canada" has in effect given up on maintaining as dominant its British heritage and embraced a "multi-ethnic" immigrant culture, "French Canada" has not.
This change in English Canada is relative recent, though.
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2015, 02:44:41 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 23, 2015, 02:34:29 PM
To me it makes sense to keep these two issues separate.
1. How can we enrich ourselves?
2. How can we help others who are in desperate need?
It seems unlikely to me that treating them as the same issue is good for any of them.
This.
I guess I fail to see how speaking on the value of immigration does that.
QuoteEurope has high unemployment as it is, so lack of workforce is not an issue except for some specialists, which are unlikely to be found among the refugees. The negative birth rate is not the cause of Europe's current economic malaise. At most you could say it stifles long term investment. As it happens underinvestment is an issue, but higher state consumption to feed refugees won't change that and will not spur relevant private investment and the minor value-add is negligible. So asylum is not bad for the economy, it does not add anything either so and will distribute the available wealth among more people.
Hey weren't you the guy justifying austerity and other conservative economic policies by the fact Germany was a shrinking country whose economy was doomed to contract?
I wonder how Liberland is fairing amidst the border scuffles. Haven't heard anything from them in a while. :hmm:
Quote from: Tyr on September 23, 2015, 04:15:26 PM
I wonder how Liberland is fairing amidst the border scuffles. Haven't heard anything from them in a while. :hmm:
AFAIK Croatian police has been blocking access there since the summer, so don't count on them doing much. And the founder seems to be more involved in travelling the world giving conferences and participating in events rather than in doing anything on the ground.
Wow first I have heard of Liberland. European Libertarians take it to the next level.
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 04:00:57 PM
Hey weren't you the guy justifying austerity and other conservative economic policies by the fact Germany was a shrinking country whose economy was doomed to contract?
I do advocate reducing our state debt due to the forecasted demographic decline and I also think aging society explains why German consumers have such a high savings rate. Not sure I support conservative economics as I am not sure what that is. And I have no idea how any of this is relevant.
If we wanted to counter the economic effects of demographic decline with immigration, we should hand out passports at university graduation ceremonies in foreign countries.
Taking in traumatised victims of civil wars without qualifications seems at best to be a very long term way to counter it and certainly not the one with the most obvious positive economic impact.
I find using a pseudo economic argument to justify a good deed disingenuous and unnecessary.
Quote from: Zanza on September 24, 2015, 12:10:02 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 04:00:57 PM
Hey weren't you the guy justifying austerity and other conservative economic policies by the fact Germany was a shrinking country whose economy was doomed to contract?
I do advocate reducing our state debt due to the forecasted demographic decline and I also think aging society explains why German consumers have such a high savings rate. Not sure I support conservative economics as I am not sure what that is. And I have no idea how any of this is relevant.
If we wanted to counter the economic effects of demographic decline with immigration, we should hand out passports at university graduation ceremonies in foreign countries.
Taking in traumatised victims of civil wars without qualifications seems at best to be a very long term way to counter it and certainly not the one with the most obvious positive economic impact.
I find using a pseudo economic argument to justify a good deed disingenuous and unnecessary.
Yup, it never helps to justify your policies (however well-meaning) with lies - because when the lie is disproven, the entire policy is tainted.
More proof Poles are stupid: this article making rounds in the internet as evidence that Sweden is a sharia hellhole:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
Yes, I am sure there are more rapes reported in Sweden than in the Emirates or Serbia because Sweden is a rape country. Jesus Christ. How did these people graduate from college.
QuoteForty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country
....wha...? :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on September 24, 2015, 12:19:20 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 24, 2015, 12:10:02 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2015, 04:00:57 PM
Hey weren't you the guy justifying austerity and other conservative economic policies by the fact Germany was a shrinking country whose economy was doomed to contract?
I do advocate reducing our state debt due to the forecasted demographic decline and I also think aging society explains why German consumers have such a high savings rate. Not sure I support conservative economics as I am not sure what that is. And I have no idea how any of this is relevant.
If we wanted to counter the economic effects of demographic decline with immigration, we should hand out passports at university graduation ceremonies in foreign countries.
Taking in traumatised victims of civil wars without qualifications seems at best to be a very long term way to counter it and certainly not the one with the most obvious positive economic impact.
I find using a pseudo economic argument to justify a good deed disingenuous and unnecessary.
Yup, it never helps to justify your policies (however well-meaning) with lies - because when the lie is disproven, the entire policy is tainted.
What is the lie? I am not justifying any good deeds. Is the fact I might actually believe that immigration is good too mind blowing that you all assume I have some secret agenda hidden behind lies?
I think the motivations of the people involved are sometimes more important than the fact they are all college grads. Besides college grads need more than just a passport to move, they need lucrative employment waiting for them, that is more difficult.
Quote from: The Brain on September 23, 2015, 02:34:29 PM
To me it makes sense to keep these two issues separate.
1. How can we enrich ourselves?
2. How can we help others who are in desperate need?
It seems unlikely to me that treating them as the same issue is good for any of them.
To elaborate: my impression is that taking in large numbers of refugee immigrants from the ME carries huge opportunity costs from the perspective of both points 1 and 2.
Quote from: Zanza on September 23, 2015, 02:57:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 23, 2015, 02:15:55 PM
I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.
Europe has high unemployment as it is, so lack of workforce is not an issue except for some specialists, which are unlikely to be found among the refugees. The negative birth rate is not the cause of Europe's current economic malaise. At most you could say it stifles long term investment. As it happens underinvestment is an issue, but higher state consumption to feed refugees won't change that and will not spur relevant private investment and the minor value-add is negligible. So asylum is not bad for the economy, it does not add anything either so and will distribute the available wealth among more people.
It is very likely skilled workers are coming in this wave. That is certainly the experience Canada had when we brought in large numbers of Asian refugees when Uganda threw them out. These are not economic migrants, they are people who probably would have wished to stay in Syria but for the terror they now face.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 24, 2015, 03:23:07 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 23, 2015, 02:57:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 23, 2015, 02:15:55 PM
I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.
Europe has high unemployment as it is, so lack of workforce is not an issue except for some specialists, which are unlikely to be found among the refugees. The negative birth rate is not the cause of Europe's current economic malaise. At most you could say it stifles long term investment. As it happens underinvestment is an issue, but higher state consumption to feed refugees won't change that and will not spur relevant private investment and the minor value-add is negligible. So asylum is not bad for the economy, it does not add anything either so and will distribute the available wealth among more people.
It is very likely skilled workers are coming in this wave. That is certainly the experience Canada had when we brought in large numbers of Asian refugees when Uganda threw them out. These are not economic migrants, they are people who probably would have wished to stay in Syria but for the terror they now face.
And that is the time when other European countries have to start telling the Germans to stop the shit they are doing.
Germany has wrecked the economies of Southern Europe with its demands of austerity; we went along, for the sake of the greater European ideal.
As a result, we have massive unemployment. Especially youth unemployment. In Portugal it's 35%, Greece over 50%, Spain 51%; far higher that the rates in African countries.
We were told that, in the wake of European integration, the young can find work in the better economies, like Germany. And so they did: many of our young (and even not so young) skilled workers took German classes and went (or are going) to search for a better future in Germany.
In large numbers, too. Since 2010, 485.000 Portuguese (about 5% of the population), mostly young and talented people, left the country due to lack of job opportunities, caused in large part by the severe Austerity demanded.
And NOW the Germans say, "screw YOU, young Europeans, we are taking Arabs instead. AND we are giving them free housing, so they can work for smaller wages than YOU, since you have to pay for your lodgings".
Is THAT what Germany is saying? For millions of young europeans that they have no future in Europe? That we reduced our economies to a size where they cannot take in all our workers for nothing? That the young people of southern (and eastern) Europe can't find a future inside Europe, because the almighty Germans decided they are going to take in ungodly numbers of Muslims instead? (1,000,000 this year and 500,000+ every year, according to the vice-chancellor Sigmar Gabriel)
AND we have to take in thousands of Mulsims into our unemployed-filled economy to boot? AND pay for them, when we cannot even pay the medicine to give to our old?
ARE YOU MOCKING US?
Because if you are, it's in VERY BAD TASTE.
If Germany continues this stupidity, it will have to face a LOT more than some Greeks against austerity. The German government is proving itself to be extremely unstable and unreasonable in its constant demands. It is hell bent to follow a sure path to make Germans the most hated people in Europe, and it risks alienating most European countries from the european ideal. Britain is already ever more closer to a Brexit, and this way you can expect a lot more countries to follow.
So I advise you to stop with your Gutmensch loony ideals and start thinking HARD about the choices you are making for the whole of Europe, because you CANNOT joke with the lives of tens of millions of europeans just because you think that turning yourselves into New Arabia will somehow "redeem" Germany from whatever happened in the first half of the past century. Because it won't. It will make you MORE hated instead.
Well that was weird. Even for MSil.
Quote from: garbon on September 24, 2015, 04:17:21 PM
Well that was weird. Even for MSil.
Pretty good rant in my opinion.
I like it when people write random words in all caps in their rants. Very manifest-esque.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 24, 2015, 04:10:23 PM
Germany has wrecked the economies of Southern Europe with its demands of austerity; we went along, for the sake of the greater European ideal.
This whole time I thought it was for the sake of the cheap loans.
QuoteIf Germany continues this stupidity, it will have to face a LOT more than some Greeks against austerity. The German government is proving itself to be extremely unstable and unreasonable in its constant demands.
:huh: :lol:
Quote from: lustindarkness on September 24, 2015, 04:26:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 24, 2015, 04:17:21 PM
Well that was weird. Even for MSil.
Pretty good rant in my opinion.
I agree. We should have a rant of the month award. That one was brilliant.
So apparently we had another terrorist attack. I guess this is the thread for it since it was an asylum seeker that stabbed a police officer while shouting allahu akbar.
Quote from: Liep on September 29, 2015, 12:25:56 PM
So apparently we had another terrorist attack. I guess this is the thread for it since it was an asylum seeker that stabbed a police officer while shouting allahu akbar.
Huh. I bet the other asylum seekers are thrilled.
http://news.sciencemag.org/europe/2015/09/scientist-revokes-software-license-protest-immigration-friendly-policies?&utm_source=scienceInsider&utm_medium=facebook-text&utm_campaign=racist_scientist-109_2015-09-30
QuoteScientist says researchers in immigrant-friendly nations can't use his software
A German scientist is revoking the license to his bioinformatics software for researchers working in eight European countries because those countries allow too many immigrants to cross their borders. From 1 October, scientists in Germany, Austria, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, the United Kingdom, Sweden, and Denmark—"the countries that together host most of the non-European immigrants"—won't be allowed to use a program called Treefinder, informatician Gangolf Jobb wrote in a statement he posted on his website.
Treefinder has been used in hundreds of scientific papers to build phylogenetic trees, diagrams showing the most likely evolutionary relationship of various species, from sequence data. Although the change in the license may be a nuisance for some researchers, the program is far from irreplaceable, several scientists tell ScienceInsider. Treefinder had not been updated for several years and it was mostly used by researchers who had grown used to it, they say. Some pointed to a list of possible alternatives online.
"Immigration to my country harms me, it harms my family, it harms my people. Whoever invites or welcomes immigrants to Europe and Germany is my enemy," Jobb's statement reads. "Immigration unnecessarily defers the collapse of capitalism, its final crisis," the statement also reads.
Jobb had already excluded researchers in the United States from using the software in February. "I want to stress that this license change is not against my colleagues in the USA," he wrote at the time, "but against a small rich elite there that misuses the country's power to rule the world. The USA is our worst enemy." In another part of the website, Jobb writes that "the scientific system is being misused to promote" the goals of a "small elite" and that "evil old men rule the world."
The 2004 paper describing Treefinder was written by Jobb and Korbinian Strimmer, a bioinformatician at Imperial College London who says he hasn't seen Jobb in 10 years. Jobb sent "grotesque emails with racist slogans" to professors in Germany in the past, Strimmer says. "His new diatribe against refugees is unbelievable."
Strimmer says Jobb started a Ph.D. at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, under Arndt von Haeseler, now at the Center for Integrative Bioinformatics Vienna, who is also a co-author on the 2004 paper. Jobb later broke off his Ph.D., however, and joined Strimmer's group for a year. "During that time I managed to persuade him to write the publication on Treefinder," Strimmer says. It is not clear whether Jobb still has a job. (His website says that he "cannot work as a scientist, because my traditional views and values conflict with that elite's doctrine.") Jobb declined to answer questions via email, referring to his website.
"I'd say not being able to use Treefinder would be no great loss to anyone," says Sandra Baldauf, a biologist at Uppsala University in Sweden. A paper co-authored by Baldauf last year in Current Biology used Treefinder primarily because a colleague had long worked with it, she says; now that that researcher has left, Baldauf uses "the underlying software (Consel), which is the real analytical power behind Treefinder anyway," she wrote in an email. And after reading Jobb's statement, "I would stop using [Treefinder] just on general principle, even if we had to resort to using pencil and paper."
Another researcher, biologist Maria Nilsson-Janke at the LOEWE Biodiversity and Climate Research Centre in Frankfurt, Germany, says her team has been using the software and only became aware of the change in the license—and Jobb's worldview—after an email from ScienceInsider. She and her team "started to look for replacements, and have already found suitable programs,"Nilsson-Janke says. "We will also reanalyze data sets that are in the pipeline to be published."
The affair shows that it is important for scientists to be knowledgeable about licensing issues when using software, says Antoine Branca, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Paris-Sud in Orsay, France, who co-authored a Nature Communications paper last year that also relied on Treefinder. Because Jobb owns the licence, he can restrict it as he sees fit; licenses like the GNU General Public License, on the other hand, grant users rights to use, study, share, and even modify the software freely. "Maybe people will be more aware of this now," Branca says.
That's okay. The NSA has provided us the Source Code and we have no problem letting other countries use it.
QuoteGangolf Jobb
:lol:
Quote"Immigration unnecessarily defers the collapse of capitalism, its final crisis,"
We should invite him to Languish. :lol:
How many final collapses has Capitalism had? 20? 30?
Worth a view if it'll run in your country, John Sweeney from the BBC follows the refugee trail into Europe, some interesting insights and personal stories:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06g01kf/panorama-europes-border-crisis-the-long-road (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06g01kf/panorama-europes-border-crisis-the-long-road)
Quote from: mongers on September 30, 2015, 09:16:04 PM
Worth a view if it'll run in your country, John Sweeney from the BBC follows the refugee trail into Europe, some interesting insights and personal stories:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06g01kf/panorama-europes-border-crisis-the-long-road (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06g01kf/panorama-europes-border-crisis-the-long-road)
iPlayer is only available in the UK. Luckily a Dane has done the same, and it's free for all (in Danish though :P).
http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/udland/i-en-flygtnings-spor-rejsen-er-slut
John Oliver on the subject, and Days of Our Lives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqvYhb3wf4
Quote from: Syt on October 01, 2015, 03:10:00 AM
John Oliver on the subject, and Days of Our Lives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqvYhb3wf4
Painful to hear Denmark mentioned in this. Usually when Denmark got airtime on the Daily Show it was because we were so happy, so green or had a silly royal family. :weep:
The latest figure in the German press is that there might be up to 1.5 million migrants coming to Germany this year as we still get about 10,000 per day. If there is a harsh winter, there is no way we can adequately house that many people. Will be interesting to see how this turns out. There is also forming quite a bit of resistance against Merkel even in the two mainstream parties that make up our governing coalition. This will turn ugly with a couple of weeks.
I hope Merkel prevails. Even though I do not always agree with her, she - and the Pope - are probably the only two high profile politicians in Europe right now who are trying to run politics based on ethics. Unlike, say, the British pig fucker.
Yes Poland always profits from major European leaders being idealists.
Quote from: Martinus on October 05, 2015, 02:25:40 PM
I hope Merkel prevails. Even though I do not always agree with her, she - and the Pope - are probably the only two high profile politicians in Europe right now who are trying to run politics based on ethics. Unlike, say, the British pig fucker.
You do realise that Germany and the EU are in talks with Erdogan about sponsoring the Turkish refugee camps in exchange of Erdogan preventing people from leaving Turkey, right?
Quote from: The Brain on October 05, 2015, 02:28:48 PM
Yes Poland always profits from major European leaders being idealists.
:lol:
Quote from: Tamas on October 05, 2015, 02:33:41 PM
You do realise that Germany and the EU are in talks with Erdogan about sponsoring the Turkish refugee camps in exchange of Erdogan preventing people from leaving Turkey, right?
The narrative is of course not to prevent them from leaving Turkey, but to make life in those camps more bearable and support Turkey in its care for the millions of refugees. I guess it is both which makes it ethically ambigous. I can understand why people prefer to come to Europe and I think that we should try to keep our basic right to asylum alive somehow. But there is no right to come here if you have found asylum elsewhere. And while I can understand and empathize with every single individual that seeks a better life, I also see that the capability of Europe (and right now that's mainly Germany and Sweden) is limited, so we cannot take everyone on economic grounds. I have less of a problem with closing down our borders if those camps in Turkey are well-funded.
Quote from: Martinus on October 05, 2015, 02:25:40 PM
I hope Merkel prevails. Even though I do not always agree with her, she - and the Pope - are probably the only two high profile politicians in Europe right now who are trying to run politics based on ethics. Unlike, say, the British pig fucker.
Apparently she's now considered for the Nobel Peace Prize. :lol:
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 02:56:05 PM
Apparently she's now considered for the Nobel Peace Prize. :lol:
Obama should get another one.
Quote from: Tamas on October 05, 2015, 02:33:41 PM
You do realise that Germany and the EU are in talks with Erdogan about sponsoring the Turkish refugee camps in exchange of Erdogan preventing people from leaving Turkey, right?
What is wrong with that plan? :hmm:
Giving money to help Turkey with their refugee crisis is just a fair thing to do if the EU is not going to provide shelter for everybody.
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2015, 02:59:12 PM
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 02:56:05 PM
Apparently she's now considered for the Nobel Peace Prize. :lol:
Obama should get another one.
:yes: He's still not Bush!
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2015, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 05, 2015, 02:33:41 PM
You do realise that Germany and the EU are in talks with Erdogan about sponsoring the Turkish refugee camps in exchange of Erdogan preventing people from leaving Turkey, right?
What is wrong with that plan? :hmm:
Giving money to help Turkey with their refugee crisis is just a fair thing to do if the EU is not going to provide shelter for everybody,
It is quite telling that we only became this altruistic when the migrants showed up on our doorstep. It was convenient to ignore it for years beforehand.
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 02:15:56 PM
The latest figure in the German press is that there might be up to 1.5 million migrants coming to Germany this year as we still get about 10,000 per day. If there is a harsh winter, there is no way we can adequately house that many people. Will be interesting to see how this turns out. There is also forming quite a bit of resistance against Merkel even in the two mainstream parties that make up our governing coalition. This will turn ugly with a couple of weeks.
at least we'll know who to curse in a decade or so when the integration problem totally spires out of control.
The multitude of Middle Eastern and African potentates that created the terrible situation that triggered this massive migration?
Bush?
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2015, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 05, 2015, 02:33:41 PM
You do realise that Germany and the EU are in talks with Erdogan about sponsoring the Turkish refugee camps in exchange of Erdogan preventing people from leaving Turkey, right?
What is wrong with that plan? :hmm:
Giving money to help Turkey with their refugee crisis is just a fair thing to do if the EU is not going to provide shelter for everybody.
I think it is a great plan. Didn't seem to fit with Marty's zealous stance, is all
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 04:20:13 PM
The multitude of Middle Eastern and African potentates that created the terrible situation that triggered this massive migration?
how about the multitude of politically correct european politicians with their defacto open borders policies.
There will be plenty of blame to go around.
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 02:54:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 05, 2015, 02:33:41 PM
You do realise that Germany and the EU are in talks with Erdogan about sponsoring the Turkish refugee camps in exchange of Erdogan preventing people from leaving Turkey, right?
The narrative is of course not to prevent them from leaving Turkey, but to make life in those camps more bearable and support Turkey in its care for the millions of refugees. I guess it is both which makes it ethically ambigous. I can understand why people prefer to come to Europe and I think that we should try to keep our basic right to asylum alive somehow. But there is no right to come here if you have found asylum elsewhere. And while I can understand and empathize with every single individual that seeks a better life, I also see that the capability of Europe (and right now that's mainly Germany and Sweden) is limited, so we cannot take everyone on economic grounds. I have less of a problem with closing down our borders if those camps in Turkey are well-funded.
Well, it would be great if they could stay in Turkey, but the pre-condition for that must be Turkey improving both the conditions at the camps and their administrative processes radically - for the time being we have to take these people.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 06, 2015, 02:49:24 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 04:20:13 PM
The multitude of Middle Eastern and African potentates that created the terrible situation that triggered this massive migration?
how about the multitude of politically correct european politicians with their defacto open borders policies.
I will repeat - why do all the racists always come from the shittiest countries, like Belgium or Portugal?
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2015, 03:03:22 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 06, 2015, 02:49:24 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 04:20:13 PM
The multitude of Middle Eastern and African potentates that created the terrible situation that triggered this massive migration?
how about the multitude of politically correct european politicians with their defacto open borders policies.
I will repeat - why do all the racists always come from the shittiest countries, like Belgium or Portugal?
We're apparently not that shitty seen all fugitives coming here instead of Poland :P
To be honest I think EU should help these fugitives and I'm pro dividing them all over but it should be handled much better (current situation is especially shitty for Italy and Greece, I'm even pro economic immigration under certain conditions. But on the other hand I'm sure we can't take everyone who comes over here so their should be measures to reduce the fugitive and immigrant streams.
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2015, 03:03:22 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 06, 2015, 02:49:24 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 04:20:13 PM
The multitude of Middle Eastern and African potentates that created the terrible situation that triggered this massive migration?
how about the multitude of politically correct european politicians with their defacto open borders policies.
I will repeat - why do all the racists always come from the shittiest countries, like Belgium or Portugal?
Belgium and Portugal are hardly the poorest countries in the EU.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 05:04:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2015, 03:03:22 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 06, 2015, 02:49:24 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 04:20:13 PM
The multitude of Middle Eastern and African potentates that created the terrible situation that triggered this massive migration?
how about the multitude of politically correct european politicians with their defacto open borders policies.
I will repeat - why do all the racists always come from the shittiest countries, like Belgium or Portugal?
Belgium and Portugal are hardly the poorest countries in the EU.
How similar would lists of the poorest EU countries and the shittiest EU countries be?
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2015, 03:03:22 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 06, 2015, 02:49:24 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 04:20:13 PM
The multitude of Middle Eastern and African potentates that created the terrible situation that triggered this massive migration?
how about the multitude of politically correct european politicians with their defacto open borders policies.
I will repeat - why do all the racists always come from the shittiest countries, like Belgium or Portugal?
clearly you left Brussels far too soon.
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2015, 02:15:56 PM
The latest figure in the German press is that there might be up to 1.5 million migrants coming to Germany this year as we still get about 10,000 per day. If there is a harsh winter, there is no way we can adequately house that many people. Will be interesting to see how this turns out. There is also forming quite a bit of resistance against Merkel even in the two mainstream parties that make up our governing coalition. This will turn ugly with a couple of weeks.
Let us just make the math:
10,000 entering Germany a day. The report says 920,000 are expected from October-December alone.
(A gigantic increase over the flow of the previous months, which in itself was already 750% higher than in 2014).
In practice, this means Germany will be taking 3,650,000 people a year.
But the report also notices that many of the new arrivals (69% male now, according to the latest numbers from the UNHCR) will ask for their families to join them, under the right of family reunion. The report published says that, given the family structures of the region, that means each male can bring between 6 to 8 people to the country.
Even assuming all females and children are tied to a male migrant (plenty are not, but let's assume they are), that means 54% of the new male arrivals can ask bring in their families.
Which means Germany is facing - using the lower figure of 6 people per male migrant - an added intake of 11,8 million people a year, in addition to the 3,6 million that enter by foot. And that is if the situation stabililizes, something it is not happening: the floodgates are opening and they are pouring in - do bear in mind most refugees are not syrians, but from other areas.
The EU is indeed trying to get Turkey to keep them, and improve the refugee camps' standards. But Erdogan yesterday mocked Europe's intentions and today he (and Donald Tusk) said to expect another 3 million to come soon (you can read about it on the BBC, or Bloomberg, or wherever).
This would suggest Turkey is so far not cooperating.
That said, even with current numbers of 3,6 million a year in Germany [plus a good number to Sweden] the welfare state cannot be sustained.
Requests for more flexibility to government deficits are already being done, both by the presidente of the European Parliament and the Finance ministers of Austria and Luxembourg, and is clear that to take care of all these millions new taxes are needed, and it will just be a matter of very few years before money runs out.
No matter how much the Gutmensch say, the math does not add up: the situation cannot be sustained, and if Germany continues to take people as it is now, it faces an economic collapse by the end of the decade.
(Not to mention Germans becoming a miniority in their own country by 2020, should family reunion rules apply. 2039, if they do not. And if so, why would migrants assimilate to a culture that is clearly dying very, very, fast?)
Quote from: Martim Silva on October 06, 2015, 08:29:22 AM
--Snip --
Huzzah for assuming that sudden changes will continue to be perpetuated indefinitely in the future!
See also every other panic about immigration, increased drug use or rising crime
Quote from: frunk on October 06, 2015, 09:07:08 AM
Quote from: Martim Silva on October 06, 2015, 08:29:22 AM
--Snip --
Huzzah for assuming that sudden changes will continue to be perpetuated indefinitely in the future!
See also every other panic about immigration, increased drug use or rising crime
"Assuming"?
FYI, what has been happing these last years is a gigantic increase in the numbers of asylum-seekers. By the hundres of percent every year, hitting dramatic levels this year and showing no sign of slowing down.
If anything, I am being conservative by saying the migratory flux may stay the same. This is not supported by the actual numbers, who indicate a dramatic increase in arrivals on a monthly basis.
Also, the European Council and Turkey are warning for many more millions to arrive.
What are YOUR basis to claim this will all die down in the future?
That all the billions of poor people in the third world will suddenly say, "oh going to the EU is SO yesterday" and give up on getting a better future?
Even today, the UK Home Secretary warned that the constant arrival of hundreds of thousands of people make it "impossible to build a choesive society".
http://news.yahoo.com/mass-immigration-damaging-britain-says-uk-interior-minister-074236631--business.html (http://news.yahoo.com/mass-immigration-damaging-britain-says-uk-interior-minister-074236631--business.html)
And she is referring to the UK, that is taking in just 330,000 migrants a year, a mere 1/11th of what Germany is taking.
It's people like you, frunk, who always minimize very serious problems, and who were also the ones that, just some years ago, said that the possibility of flotillas of refugees crossing the seas to reach Europe from the Third World were just a "fantasy", that are part of the problem.
Well, the inflow should slow down a bit with the bad season, but there's still time for a rush à la "last call".
QuoteMigrants rush to Europe before weather deteriorates
02/10 22:14 CET
As the weather starts to worsen, it seems an increasing number of migrants are heading for Greece.
People continued to arrive on the island of Lesbos on Friday, where the office of a former Greek justice minister was set on fire. Police think the attack could be linked to the influx.
Weather conditions are set to deteriorate in the coming weeks, with a drop in temperatures.
This will further increase the dangers of crossing the Aegean sea between Turkey and Greece by boat, the most perilous leg on the journey to safety for the vast majority of people escaping conflicts in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.
"When we got in the dinghy and I saw the huge waves, I wanted to turn back. But where could I go back to?" asked one Syrian man, who reached the shores of Lesbos.
"We were forced to flee. I was afraid for my children, if anything happened to them I would be responsible."
Thousands of other migrants are using the so-called Balkan route to reach Europe.
On Friday, in Croatia, more than a thousand people travelled by train to a village near the Hungarian border. From there, they headed towards Hungary on foot.
Croatia says it has been overwhelmed with migrants after Hungary closed off its border with Serbia.
http://www.euronews.com/2015/10/02/migrants-rush-to-europe-before-weather-deteriorates/ (http://www.euronews.com/2015/10/02/migrants-rush-to-europe-before-weather-deteriorates/)
Quote from: Martim Silva on October 06, 2015, 10:13:50 AM
What are YOUR basis to claim this will all die down in the future?
I can guarantee you that it will die down in the future. It's a question of when, not if. You are dealing with a highly variable situation and trying to assume that there's a steady state to be reached now or in the near term. Flows like this that increase rapidly also drop rapidly, and you were projecting numbers out 5 years based on the amount of traffic (which itself has changed greatly) over a few months. There's no way it's a meaningful estimate.
Total European population in 2013 was 742 million. To reach the proportional amount of illegal immigration as the US had at its peak would require ~30 million. It's quite possible that there will be many more immigrants to come, but unless there's incredible idiocy in the handling of it Europe should be able to deal.
German paper Tagesspiegel apologized for their recent front page:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiepresse.com%2Fimages%2Fuploads%2F0%2Ff%2Fb%2F4837627%2Ftagesspiegel_htiler_1444205724638908.jpg&hash=8a6617476cc1cbd67abb39e49f0378ebc33cca18)
Bottom headline: "Refugee crisis becomes Chefsache." ("Chefsache" is a German term for something that becomes so important/urgent that the boss is taking it over from the subordinates.) The picture is from a satirical movie about Hitler waking up in modern day Germany.
@Martim: Many of your assumptions are wrong. Most importantly the figure already includes the expected family reunions and that asylum applications don't mean that people actually are admitted or stay indefinitely.
Quote from: Zanza on October 07, 2015, 09:48:00 AM
@Martim: Many of your assumptions are wrong. Most importantly the figure already includes the expected family reunions and that asylum applications don't mean that people actually are admitted or stay indefinitely.
Dumping 400 thousand people back to Syria will be such a PR event.
Quote from: Zanza on October 07, 2015, 09:48:00 AM
@Martim: Many of your assumptions are wrong. Most importantly the figure already includes the expected family reunions and that asylum applications don't mean that people actually are admitted or stay indefinitely.
Did you watch the Panorama special about Jamel? I thought it was interesting, but also very light on any real new insights. The scary thing is I know from back home quite a few people like the head guy. Generally nice and friendly when you meet them/talk to them, but with a dark (or rather brown) and violent side when they're in groups or around population groups they don't approve of.
Quote from: Tamas on October 07, 2015, 09:50:20 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 07, 2015, 09:48:00 AM
@Martim: Many of your assumptions are wrong. Most importantly the figure already includes the expected family reunions and that asylum applications don't mean that people actually are admitted or stay indefinitely.
Dumping 400 thousand people back to Syria will be such a PR event.
Martim's argumentation is that most aren't even from Syria. And that is supported by the figures of our authorities. Like half of the people that arrived at least until August (haven't seen figures for the September distribution) were from the Western Balkans. We can and will deport them if they don't leave on their own after not being admitted.
Quote from: Syt on October 07, 2015, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 07, 2015, 09:48:00 AM
@Martim: Many of your assumptions are wrong. Most importantly the figure already includes the expected family reunions and that asylum applications don't mean that people actually are admitted or stay indefinitely.
Did you watch the Panorama special about Jamel? I thought it was interesting, but also very light on any real new insights. The scary thing is I know from back home quite a few people like the head guy. Generally nice and friendly when you meet them/talk to them, but with a dark (or rather brown) and violent side when they're in groups or around population groups they don't approve of.
Is that the Nazi village in MeckPom? If so, no, I didn't see it. I know a couple of rather reactionary people at home as well. Generally intelligent, well-spoken, but really hardcore reactionaries. They aren't Nazis though, more fans of the Kaiserreich I guess. :huh:
Yeah. You can watch it here, if you have half an hour to spare: http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/panorama_die_reporter/Im-Nazidorf,panorama5828.html
Whats with all the Serbs thinking they can still get assylum anyway
QuoteBottom headline: "Refugee crisis becomes Chefsache." ("Chefsache" is a German term for something that becomes so important/urgent that the boss is taking it over from the subordinates.) The picture is from a satirical movie about Hitler waking up in modern day Germany.
Based on the book "Look who's back"??
Didn't know there was a film of it.
Quote from: Tyr on October 07, 2015, 11:24:39 AMWhats with all the Serbs thinking they can still get assylum anyway
It's not just Serbs, AFAIK there are also lots of Bosnians, Albanians and Kosovars trying to get refugee status in Germany. The overwhelming majority of them get rejected.
Well, I guess we'll see if the Donald's plan is feasible.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4578486.ece
Quote
Bruno Waterfield Brussels
Last updated at 12:01AM, October 7 2015
Hundreds of thousands of failed asylum seekers will be deported from Europe within weeks under secret plans leaked to The Times.
Brussels will threaten to withdraw aid, trade deals and visa arrangements if countries such as Niger and Eritrea refuse to take back their economic migrants. The proposals also envisage EU states detaining thousands of migrants to prevent them from absconding to avoid deportation.
More than 400,000 people who entered the EU in the first half of this year are expected to have their asylum claims rejected, posing a humanitarian and political challenge for EU leaders.
A draft diplomatic text to be discussed tomorrow by EU home office ministers, including Theresa May, warns that countries must send more migrants home. "Increased return rates should act as a deterrent to irregular migration," it says.
Those fleeing Syria, Afghanistan or Libya could be among the deportees if their asylum applications failed. Britain, as a non-Schengen country, would not be bound by the deportation plan but Mrs May is expected to back it, especially if it raises the prospect of migrant camps in Calais being cleared.
The home secretary called yesterday for a new deportation system, including the use of alternative identity documents, known as "laissez passer", to eject failed asylum seekers who do not have their own passports.
The deportation plan marks a tipping point for European leaders who have been divided over how to handle the biggest exodus of migrants since the Second World War, many trying to escape war in the Middle East and poverty in Africa.
Under the "action plan on return", a special unit of the EU border guard agency, Frontex, will be created to help with deportations. Countries that do not enforce international refugee rules by deporting "irregular migrants" would face legal action and fines from the European Commission.
"Member states must systematically issue return decisions, take all necessary steps to enforce them and provide adequate resources, necessary for identifying and returning illegally staying third-country nationals," the document says.
The leaked Brussels document says: "While member states are primarily responsible for carrying out returns, the immediate creation of a dedicated return office within Frontex should enable it to scale-up its support to facilitate, organise and fund return operations."
The plan also calls on EU member states to detain people, to prevent the high rate — up to 60 per cent — of failed asylum seekers absconding before they are deported. "All measures must be taken to ensure irregular migrants' effective return, including use of detention," the document says.
It proposes that the EU uses development aid and visa talks with non-EU countries as a threat to make sure that deported migrants will be accepted back.
Legally binding clauses in EU trade treaties, such as the Cotonou agreement with African countries, including Burkina Faso, Congo, Eritrea, Niger and Zimbabwe, will be enforced to require them to take back their own nationals who have been assessed as economic migrants. "All tools shall be mobilised to increase co-operation on return and readmission," the plan says.
Tony Bunyan, the director of Statewatch, an EU civil liberties watchdog, said that the plan would not work and attacked the use of "EU laissez-passer to return refugees to third countries as reminiscent of the apartheid pass laws".
"Refugees, who have fled from war, persecution and poverty, do not want to return to the country they have come from. The returns policy proposed is not going to work," he said. "It cannot be seriously expected that Turkey would accept the return of hundreds of thousands of refugees."
I find it likely that this will actually be implemented. Lots to gain for politicians by appearing tough on certain groups of immigrants and virtually nothing to lose as these groups don't have a relevant lobby and basically zero influence on elections. The only possible opposition to this might come from courts.
Quote from: The Larch on October 07, 2015, 11:40:31 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 07, 2015, 11:24:39 AMWhats with all the Serbs thinking they can still get assylum anyway
It's not just Serbs, AFAIK there are also lots of Bosnians, Albanians and Kosovars trying to get refugee status in Germany. The overwhelming majority of them get rejected.
Why do they think its possible though?
Serbia and Bosnia are apparently pretty fine mid-level countries these days.
Kosovo...it has its problems, particularly with organised crime, but again isn't so bad.
Quote from: Tyr on October 08, 2015, 01:41:20 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 07, 2015, 11:40:31 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 07, 2015, 11:24:39 AMWhats with all the Serbs thinking they can still get assylum anyway
It's not just Serbs, AFAIK there are also lots of Bosnians, Albanians and Kosovars trying to get refugee status in Germany. The overwhelming majority of them get rejected.
Why do they think its possible though?
Because in the past some asylum systems has been so often abused by people who were actually just economic immigrants that people assume that they can continue to use the same ruse.
Austria has a peculiar problem. 20% of people in investigative custody are human traffickers, and the police is running out of cells.
Quote from: Tyr on October 08, 2015, 01:41:20 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 07, 2015, 11:40:31 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 07, 2015, 11:24:39 AMWhats with all the Serbs thinking they can still get assylum anyway
It's not just Serbs, AFAIK there are also lots of Bosnians, Albanians and Kosovars trying to get refugee status in Germany. The overwhelming majority of them get rejected.
Why do they think its possible though?
Serbia and Bosnia are apparently pretty fine mid-level countries these days.
Kosovo...it has its problems, particularly with organised crime, but again isn't so bad.
The "it doesn't hurt to try" argument, I guess. When you really want to leave, you try every possible avenue. That or maybe the fact that it's a known mechanism employed by others from the region during the wars of the past. Anyway, they have rejection rates in the 90% ballpark.
An Asian perspective.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-34460325
QuoteIs this manga cartoon of a six-year-old Syrian girl racist?
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"I want to live a safe and clean life, eat gourmet food, go out, wear pretty things, and live a luxurious life... all at the expense of someone else," reads the text on the illustration above. "I have an idea. I'll become a refugee."
The image and caption were posted by a right-wing Japanese artist last month. Now, more than 10,000 people have signed a Change.org petition in Japanese urging Facebook to take it down. The petition, posted by an account calling itself the "Don't Allow Racism Group", claims that several people have reported the illustration and demands that "Facebook must recognize an illustration insulting Syrian refugees as racism."
Although the Japan Times reported that Facebook did not take the picture down, saying it did not go against community guidelines, the artist herself removed the picture. But she remains defiant about her motivations for posting it in the first place. Toshiko Hasumi told BBC Trending that she believed the people signing the petition were left-wing activists. "I draw many political mangas [Japanese comics] which are not favourable to them," she said. "This is why they targeted me."
Japan has pledged to contribute $810m to help Syrian and Iraqi refugees, but Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has refused to take in any of those displaced by the conflict in those countries. Japan accepted only 11 of 5,000 potential asylum seekers last year. Japan is one of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world, and immigration is hugely controversial despite the country's declining and ageing population.
One group of immigrants that is sizeable in Japan is Koreans, and Toshiko, who identifies herself as a conservative, posts her cartoons on a Facebook page that includes anti-Korean messages, including material that casts doubt on the stories of "comfort women" - Koreans and women of other nationalities who were forced to become sex slaves for Japanese forces during World War Two. She claimed that her drawing and the associated captions "did not mention any specific race or nationals" - however she admits taking inspiration from a picture of a 6-year-old-girl in a refugee camp in Lebanon, taken by Jonathan Hyams, a photographer working for the charity Save the Children:
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Toshiko took the drawing down from her Facebook page on Wednesday, citing a request made by Hyams, who earlier tweeted: "Shocked+deeply saddened anyone would choose to use an image of an innocent child to express such perverse prejudice".
Save the Children said it was "saddened" by the cartoon. "To use this image out of context and in a way that is hugely disrespectful to [the girl], her family and all refugees is not acceptable, and we are satisfied that the image has now been removed," the charity said in a statement.
But despite removing the photo, Toshiko was unapologetic creating it: "I don't want European nations to be victimised and hard working people should not suffer by those fake immigrants," she told Trending. She admitted trying to be provocative by using an image of a young girl.
"The simple reason I used a girl is, if I drew an old man it wouldn't have gained attention," Toshiko said. "I am not denying that there are real miserable refugees. I am just denying those 'fake refugees' pretending like victims who are acting for their own benefit by exploiting the media attention on the real poor refugees."
It's just wierd that they would use a little girl's pic for that message. :huh: Yeah, "provocative" as in "making you look like a total ass".
What's next, a pic of a starving African child with the message 'when I grow up, I want to deal drugs and rape white women'?
Quote from: Malthus on October 08, 2015, 08:32:35 AM
"making you look like a total ass".
I think you meant to type, "edgy." ;) (But yeah, I agree)
http://news.yahoo.com/bavaria-wants-send-refugees-back-austria-merkel-says-165617068.html
QuoteBavaria wants to send refugees back to Austria, Merkel says no
BERLIN (Reuters) - The German state of Bavaria plans "emergency measures" of its own - including sending refugees back to Austria - to stem the flow of migrants, state premier Horst Seehofer told Bild daily, raising pressure on Chancellor Angela Merkel over the crisis.
With about 10,000 refugees arriving in Germany every day, Bavaria is the main entry point for those fleeing war or poverty in the Middle East and beyond.
Seehofer says more than 225,000 refugees have arrived in his southern state in less than five weeks and that authorities are stretched beyond the limit to house and care for them all.
Although in the same conservative parliamentary bloc, he is at loggerheads with Merkel on handling the refugee crisis as he insists that limits on numbers allowed into Germany are needed. So far she has refused.
His Bavarian cabinet will meet on Friday to agree on emergency measures, although legally the state is not in a position to send back refugees as this would be a matter for the federal government in Berlin.
"It is about integration, education and education," Seehofer told Bild about Friday's meeting.
"On top of that will come specific self-defensive measures to limit migration, such as sending back people to the border with Austria and the immediate transfer of newly-arrived asylum seekers within Germany."
Austria has warned that it would have to respond if Bavaria resorted to measures along the border that led to a build up of refugees.
Merkel has made clear she will not introduce a refugee cap. "There will not be an entry stop," she told ARD television late on Wednesday.
Her Social Democrat (SPD) coalition partners have also dismissed the idea of limits. Vice Chancellor and SPD chief Sigmar Gabriel said it was unrealistic to close the borders.
"We do not have a drawbridge we can lift," he said, adding refugees are fleeing Syria due to the dramatic situation there.
"Closing the borders - someone would have to tell us how that's supposed to work. Are we going to have the army there, with bayonets at the ready? Nobody would do that," he said, adding the causes of flight, hunger and misery had to be fought.
The refugee crisis is taking its toll on the popularity of Merkel's conservative Christian Democrats (CDU) and also their Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union (CSU), which Seehofer leads.
If ever there was an opportunity to get rid of Bavaria, it's now. :shifty:
Maybe we can do a Abschluss?
Quote from: Zanza on October 08, 2015, 01:47:31 PM
Maybe we can do a Abschluss?
http://www.der-postillon.com/2015/06/urkunde-aus-dem-16-jahrhundert.html ;)
Austro-Bavaria certainly sound better than Austro-Hungary.
Glad to see that Bavaria is moving closer to East Germany. Reunification works! :D
As a person of a certain age whose country was... "not all that modern" even 40 years ago, I can tell you that western men have little to no idea of what males from certain civilizations are told to think.
In Portugal's case, when I was young, we were expected to try get all the women we could, willingly or not, and never to take 'no' for an answer. This including chasing them in the streets in broad daylight. On the reverse side of the coin, we were to defend our female relatives/love interests from the other males, and to use violence whenever required, which could be quite often.
(Even at all levels at school, as you might guess, the inter-class breaks were pretty much 95% violence, but this was seen - and was - as rather normal by the teachers; boys were supposed to spend their time punching and hitting each other)
With people of the same mindset coming at a rate of 10,000 a day to Germany, things are going badly fast.
Is Germany really going to let its women (and asylum-seeking women, for that matter) get brutally raped by the sea of Asylum seekers? All for the sake of 'Political Correctness'? Relive the dark days of Soviet mass rapes? Shouldn't these mass rapes NEVER AGAIN happen on German soil?
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany (http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany)
The individual links for the cases mentioned are inside the piece I link to.
Dozens of cases of rape and attempted rape — cases in which police are specifically looking for foreign perpetrators (German police often refer to them as Südländer, or "southerners") — remain unresolved. Following is a partial list just for August 2015:
On August 3, a "North African" raped a seven-year-old girl in broad daylight in a park in Chemnitz, a city in eastern Germany. On August 1, a male "southerner" attempted to rape a 27-year-old woman in downtown Stuttgart.
On August 6, police revealed that a 13-year-old Muslim girl was raped by another asylum seeker at a refugee facility in Detmold, a city in west-central Germany. The girl and her mother reportedly fled their homeland to escape a culture of sexual violence; as it turns out, the man who raped the girl is from their country.
On August 10, five men of "Turkish origin" attempted to rape a girl in Mönchengladbach. Also on August 10, a male "southerner" raped a 15-year-old girl in Rinteln. On August 8, a male "southerner" attempted to rape a 20-year-old woman in Siegen.
On August 12, a male "southerner" attempted to rape a 17-year-old woman in Hannover. Also on August 12, a male "southerner" exposed himself to a 31-year-old woman in Kassel. Police say a similar incident occurred in the same area on August 11.
On August 13, police arrested two Iraqi asylum seekers, aged 23 and 19, for raping an 18-year-old German woman behind a schoolyard in Hamm, a city in North Rhine-Westphalia.
On August 23, a "dark skinned" man attempted to rape a 35-year-old woman in Dortmund. On August 17, three male "southerners" attempted to rape a 42-year-old woman in Ansbach. On August 16, a male "southerner" raped a woman in Hanau.
On August 26, a 34-year-old asylum seeker attempted to rape a 34-year-old woman in the laundry room of a refugee facility in Stralsund, a city near the Baltic Sea.
On August 28, a 22-year-old Eritrean asylum seeker was sentenced to one year and eight months in prison for attempting to rape a 30-year-old Iraqi-Kurdish woman at a refugee shelter in the Bavarian town of Höchstädt. The reduced sentence was thanks to the efforts of the defense attorney, who persuaded the judge that the defendant's situation at the shelter was hopeless: "For a year now he sits around and thinks about — about nothingness."
But before:
Over the weekend of June 12-14, a 15-year-old girl housed at a refugee shelter in Habenhausen, a district in the northern city of Bremen, was repeatedly raped by two other asylum seekers. The facility has been has been described as a "house of horrors" due to the spiraling violence perpetrated by rival gangs of youth from Africa and Kosovo. A total of 247 asylum seekers are staying at the shelter, which has a capacity for 180 and a cafeteria with seating for 53.
Meanwhile, the raping of German women by asylum seekers is becoming commonplace. Following are a few select cases just from 2015:
On September 11, a 16-year-old girl was raped by an unidentified "dark-skinned man speaking broken German" close to a refugee shelter in the Bavarian town of Mering. The attack occurred while the girl was walking home from the train station.
On July 26, a 14-year-old boy was sexually assaulted inside the bathroom of a regional train in Heilbronn, a city in southwestern Germany. Police are looking for a "dark skinned" man between the ages of 30 and 40 who has an "Arab appearance." Also on July 26, a 21-year-old Tunisian asylum seeker raped a 20-year-old woman in the Dornwaldsiedlung district of Karlsruhe. Police kept the crime secret until August 14, when a local paper went public with the story.
On June 9, two Somali asylum seekers, aged 20 and 18, were sentenced to seven-and-a-half years in prison for raping a 21-year-old German woman in Bad Kreuznach, a town in Rhineland-Palatinate, on December 13, 2014.
On June 5, a 30-year-old Somali asylum seeker called "Ali S" was sentenced to four years and nine months in prison for attempting to rape a 20-year-old woman in Munich. Ali had previously served a seven-year sentence for rape, and had been out of prison for only five months before he attacked again. In an effort to protect the identity of Ali S, a Munich newspaper referred to him by the more politically correct "Joseph T."
On May 22, a 30-year-old Moroccan man was sentenced to four years and nine months in prison for attempting to rape a 55-year-old woman in Dresden. On May 20, a 25-year-old Senegalese asylum seeker was arrested after he attempted to rape a 21-year-old German woman at the Stachus, a large square in central Munich.
On April 16, a 21-year-old asylum seeker from Iraq was sentenced to three years and ten months in prison for raping a 17-year-old girl at festival in the Bavarian town of Straubing in August 2014. On April 7, a 29-year-old asylum seeker was arrested for the attempted rape of a 14-year-old girl in the town of Alzenau.
On March 17, two Afghan asylum seekers aged 19 and 20 were sentenced to five years in prison for the "particularly abhorrent" rape of a 21-year-old German woman in Kirchheim, a town near Stuttgart, on August 17, 2014.
On February 11, a 28-year-old asylum seeker from Eritrea was sentenced to four years in prison for raping a 25-year-old German woman in Stralsund, along the Baltic Sea, in October 2014.
On February 1, a 27-year-old asylum seeker from Somalia was arrested after attempting to rape women in the Bavarian town of Reisbach.
On January 16, a 24-year-old Moroccan immigrant raped a 29-year-old woman in Dresden.
Quote from: Martim Silva on October 08, 2015, 11:27:29 PM
I can say that at the time I took great pride in my ability to take on and beat up to five other dudes at the same time)
Hey, Bruce Lee, you should realize boasts like this made on the internet are much more likely to make people question your credibility than respect your fighting prowess.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 08, 2015, 11:35:24 PM
Quote from: Martim Silva on October 08, 2015, 11:27:29 PM
I can say that at the time I took great pride in my ability to take on and beat up to five other dudes at the same time)
Hey, Bruce Lee, you should realize boasts like this made on the internet are much more likely to make people question your credibility than respect your fighting prowess.
Don't give a rat's ass about what you think. And if that is what you focused while reading, you have a mental disorder - never mind me, focus of the bigger issue on hand. I even removed that bit, if that makes you feel less threatened.
Quote from: Martim Silva on October 09, 2015, 12:05:41 AM
Don't give a rat's ass about what you think. And if that is what you focused while reading, you have a mental disorder - never mind me, focus of the bigger issue on hand. I even removed that bit, if that makes you feel less threatened.
I have nothing to say about your police blotter reports of immigrants committing rape. Considering the numbers involved, it didn't seem all that remarkable. If you had something showing how the statistics have changed, that might be worth perusing.
And honestly, what's the fucking point of bragging if you don't care if people believe you? :hmm:
QuoteStuttgart Struggles to House the Migrants It Embraces
By MICHAEL KIMMELMANOCT. 6, 2015
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STUTTGART, Germany — With arson attacks on refugee camps and resistance from Chancellor Angela Merkel's own political partners, it's not hard to find doomsayers predicting trouble for German cities absorbing asylum seekers. But in this peaceful and pragmatic city, synonymous with German know-how and corporate giants like Bosch, Porsche and Mercedes, it is possible to glimpse something else: a rosier future.
Here, migration has long been an engine of growth, and integration the bedrock of civic pride. The problems Stuttgart faces are ones that prosperous cities around the globe now share, American ones included: a dearth of affordable housing and the kind of apartments that suit the evolving demographics of the people who occupy them.
The message from Stuttgart is that migrants are needed, even welcome. The challenge is building a city they can live in.
"Boomtowns are integration cities," said Gari Pavkovic, the son of a Croatian guest worker who arrived here decades ago. Mr. Pavkovic now manages immigration for the city government.
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A temporary structure where migrants live in Stuttgart. Immigrants account for one of every three start-ups in the city.
He ticked off numbers. Forty percent of Stuttgart's 600,000 residents (or 60 percent of people under the age of 18) come from abroad, twice the national average. After World War II, foreign laborers rebuilt local industry: first Italians, then Greeks, Spaniards, Yugoslavians, Turks. And they're still coming. Some 20,000 newcomers arrive annually, not counting the current wave of Syrians and others. Immigrants account for one of every three start-ups.
The other day, Levent Gunes, who works for the city planning office, provided a tour of a disused tank engine factory, an industrial relic being converted into an arts complex. The man who bought it was born in Turkey and owns a bakery across the street, Mr. Gunes said, next to a big Turkish supermarket and mosque.
"The percentage of entrepreneurs in Stuttgart with migrant backgrounds is the highest in Germany," Mr. Gunes, who teaches at Stuttgart University and is the son of Turkish migrants himself, elaborated over börek and yogurt at the bakery.
"We're talking I.T. people, engineers, architects, artists," he said. "You only see the greengrocer and the butcher at street level, not all the doctors and lawyers upstairs."
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A family outside a bakery in Feuerbach, an industrial area of Stuttgart that has many Turkish businesses.
Stuttgart's big move was to avoid pushing migrants into poor, isolated suburbs as in Rome or Paris, he emphasized.
"The layout of the city has reinforced integration," he said.
One can see what he means by what's not here. Stuttgart doesn't have ethnic enclaves. After World War II, Mercedes and Bosch erected hostels for guest workers. But by the 1970s, when Manfred Rommel [son of the field marshal by the way] became mayor, political and business leaders adopted a different tack, integrating migrants into existing communities in the city center. Stuttgart embraced a melting pot urbanism.
Wilfried Porth, a member of the Daimler board and director of the company's labor relations, recalls Stuttgart as a dour place years ago.
"Then Italians and Spaniards and Turks brought cafe life to the streets," he said. "Physically, tangibly, this became a much friendlier, more open city."
According to Mr. Porth, Daimler is now underwriting language training, job apprenticeships, and access to sports and other clubs so critical to the social fabric in Germany — helping a wider effort to speed up the process of integration for new migrants. The hope is to avoid the mistake that West German and other European cities have made, enabling a kind of parallel culture of alienated guest workers to occupy isolated pockets of cities.
"We need, as quickly as possible, to integrate refugees into neighborhoods and provide them with skills and the capability to afford housing here," Mr. Porth said.
That said, Daimler is not in the housing business, and Stuttgart, like Berlin, New York, London and Paris, faces a housing shortage.
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Suthan Shanmugarajah, 25, center, works as a line manager at the gearbox assembly of Mercedes-Benz in Stuttgart. His parents came to the country from Sri Lanka in 1979 and 1981.
City leaders want to fight sprawl, but sky-high construction costs, Europe-wide environmental regulations that discourage tall buildings, an inviolable green belt around the city center and little land in public hands all make building new apartments here a struggle.
Maybe the biggest long-term hurdle, though, is that Stuttgart needs new thinking about the shape and mix of its apartments.
A disproportionate amount of new housing across the country is built for nuclear families, but according to the German Federal Institute of Demography, more than half of German city dwellers live alone. In "Living Complex," Niklas Maak, an author and architecture critic for The Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, points out that nuclear families today account for only 14 percent to 20 percent of households in big German cities like Berlin and Munich — "almost a marginal group," he notes, and yet "this social development is hardly reflected in housing policies."
"The forms of housing offered to the residents of a city have less and less to do with the life that takes place in them," Mr. Maak concludes. The influx of Muslim migrants who will want housing for extended families tips the scales even further out of whack.
Christine Tritschler is a young urban planner in Stuttgart. "It's a crisis the refugees don't create but make more acute," she said. "There hasn't been nearly enough thinking about new housing types. More and more people want to live in the city center — workers, students, families, older people — in ways that current housing strategies don't address."
The issue isn't unique to Stuttgart. After reunification, Berlin's housing glut made that city a magnet for young people. A bounty of big, cheap apartments propelled Berlin's culture scene, but this accelerated gentrification. City officials failed to notice when the housing surplus became a deficit. Now Berlin's leaders are scrambling to provide 6,000 or more new affordable units a year. But what kind?
A couple of recent housing projects by young architects there rethink the economics and configurations of apartment buildings. The designers — Ifau and Jesko Fezer, Heide & Von Beckerath — recently completed a six-story block called R50, with timber facade and wraparound balconies: a low-cost communal development that stressed shared spaces and flexible units. At the moment, Syrian refugees are occupying some of those shared spaces.
The other project, called Spreefeld, is the work of a team of firms, Carpaneto, Fatkoehl and BAR. It mixes communal living with commercial and nonprofit offices, public green space and ground-floor common rooms. Refugees have found a haven in Spreefeld, too. The goal of the developer, Christian Schöning, is an affordable, adaptable, collaborative housing model, built in consultation with the neighborhood. It costs less per square foot to construct than what Berlin officials say is the city's least expensive new public housing. Just as important, the flexible, communal housing provides a potential model for a growing population of Muslim migrants with extended families who don't fit the nuclear model.
"We have to start thinking ahead 10 to 20 years," Mr. Schöning said. "We can't only focus on the immediate crisis, because the population is changing the way we live, and this is a long-term issue."
In Stuttgart, Isabel Fezer, a deputy mayor, echoed the thought: "Social and urban challenges go together," she said. "In this city, we have lots of practice integrating people and have had few migrant-specific troubles as a result, but if we can't house everybody, then we will have social problems. Housing is the No. 1 issue."
"The migrants are a challenge and an opportunity," she added. "At this point, they're both. But they are here to stay.
"So we must make sure this becomes an opportunity, because it is our future."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/world/europe/stuttgart-embraces-migrants-and-the-challenge-of-housing-them.html?_r=0
The NYT had a piece on the city I live in. I work together with people from Argentina, Turkey, Russia, France, Italy, Korea, India, Poland, Bosnia, Serbia, Khazakstan, etc. My doctor is Italian, the guy who cuts my hair Macedonian, the cashiers at the grocery store come from many places, the ladies at the dry cleaners are Polish, the tailor is from Africa. The building I live in has people from various nations and of course a Kebab place in the ground floor.
Quote from: Malthus on October 08, 2015, 08:32:35 AM
It's just wierd that they would use a little girl's pic for that message. :huh: Yeah, "provocative" as in "making you look like a total ass".
What's next, a pic of a starving African child with the message 'when I grow up, I want to deal drugs and rape white women'?
A little girl is probably seen as the most "pure and good" of all demographics. If a little girl wants to take advantage of the others, imagine what the boys and adults think.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 12:16:19 AM
so any analogies are bound to be grossly inaccurate.
I'm catching up on this thread, and it is tremendously sad and troubling for many reasons, but there is at least the occasionally moment of levity.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 09, 2015, 12:21:16 AM
I have nothing to say about your police blotter reports of immigrants committing rape. Considering the numbers involved, it didn't seem all that remarkable. If you had something showing how the statistics have changed, that might be worth perusing.
Yeah, without any context, those anecdotal reports are pretty meaningless.
Just out of curiosity, why do the Europeans refer to these people as "Migrants"? (In the US press, as far as I can tell, they're called "Refugees.") When I hear "Migrant" I think of the Joad family; does the term have a different connotation in British English? :bowler:
Quote from: Savonarola on October 09, 2015, 08:02:18 AM
Just out of curiosity, why do the Europeans refer to these people as "Migrants"? (In the US press, as far as I can tell, they're called "Refugees.") When I hear "Migrant" I think of the Joad family; does the term have a different connotation in British English? :bowler:
Simple, to try to taint them as people seeking "a fortune" rather than as people who try to get to safety in a civilized society.
The AfD party has filed criminal charges against Merkel for suspicion of human trafficking.
The Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) started as party critical of the Euro currency and in favor of a more libertarian approach to economics but has successively drifted ever further to the right.
Quote from: Savonarola on October 09, 2015, 08:02:18 AM
Just out of curiosity, why do the Europeans refer to these people as "Migrants"? (In the US press, as far as I can tell, they're called "Refugees.") When I hear "Migrant" I think of the Joad family; does the term have a different connotation in British English? :bowler:
I would imagine that the overwhelming majority of the Syrians would be correctly described as refugees. Most of the people from the Balkans however I would describe as migrants. It is the motivation that is key.
Quote from: Syt on October 09, 2015, 11:19:08 AM
The AfD party has filed criminal charges against Merkel for suspicion of human trafficking.
The Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) started as party critical of the Euro currency and in favor of a more libertarian approach to economics but has successively drifted ever further to the right.
That is how those Libertarian Parties tend to go.
Quote from: Syt on October 09, 2015, 11:19:08 AM
The AfD party has filed criminal charges against Merkel for suspicion of human trafficking.
The Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) started as party critical of the Euro currency and in favor of a more libertarian approach to economics but has successively drifted ever further to the right.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dw.com%2Fimage%2F0%2C%2C17515394_303%2C00.jpg&hash=baa79c84cdc8b47bb52b1844e7b32620b7e4a806)
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 09, 2015, 11:26:54 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on October 09, 2015, 08:02:18 AM
Just out of curiosity, why do the Europeans refer to these people as "Migrants"? (In the US press, as far as I can tell, they're called "Refugees.") When I hear "Migrant" I think of the Joad family; does the term have a different connotation in British English? :bowler:
I would imagine that the overwhelming majority of the Syrians would be correctly described as refugees. Most of the people from the Balkans however I would describe as migrants. It is the motivation that is key.
I had meant the people fleeing Syria, specifically; sorry for not being clearer. I think we would describe the people from the Balkans as "Immigrants" which has a more neutral connotation for us (positively "America is a land of immigrants," negatively "Illegal immigrant.") "Migrant," I think, is a little more negative ("Migrant worker.")
Quote from: Savonarola on October 09, 2015, 08:02:18 AM
Just out of curiosity, why do the Europeans refer to these people as "Migrants"? (In the US press, as far as I can tell, they're called "Refugees.") When I hear "Migrant" I think of the Joad family; does the term have a different connotation in British English? :bowler:
Some of them are refugees, some are not. Many don't seek asylum in the country they happen to be in so then they're just people who travel around.
Quote from: Savonarola on October 09, 2015, 12:31:51 PM
I had meant the people fleeing Syria, specifically; sorry for not being clearer. I think we would describe the people from the Balkans as "Immigrants" which has a more neutral connotation for us (positively "America is a land of immigrants," negatively "Illegal immigrant.") "Migrant," I think, is a little more negative ("Migrant worker.")
To me immigrant connotes someone who moves to another country in accordance with the law.
Quote from: Zanza on October 09, 2015, 12:47:10 AM
Stuttgart Struggles to House the Migrants It Embraces
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/world/europe/stuttgart-embraces-migrants-and-the-challenge-of-housing-them.html?_r=0
The NYT had a piece on the city I live in. I work together with people from Argentina, Turkey, Russia, France, Italy, Korea, India, Poland, Bosnia, Serbia, Khazakstan, etc. My doctor is Italian, the guy who cuts my hair Macedonian, the cashiers at the grocery store come from many places, the ladies at the dry cleaners are Polish, the tailor is from Africa. The building I live in has people from various nations and of course a Kebab place in the ground floor.
Maybe the NYT should take a look at the Rot Stadt in Stuttgart, say around Schozacher Straße. Proportion of Germans there sure looks like the proportion of French and Italians in the
banlieues of Paris and Rome. Still not as bad as say Marseille Nord but given time...
But then comparing smaller Stuttgart to Paris and Rome, the latter where immigration is much more recent, does not make much sense. After all, the banlieues were once desirable in France. Thing is, the European proles in the banlieue nowadays vote with their feet, since they are pushed out by the so-called alienated guest workers (not working much nowadays), they are refugees as well, they just go farther than suburbs, to the peri-urban, some kind of grey zone between country side and suburbs.
Quote from: Martim Silva on October 08, 2015, 11:27:29 PM
As a person of a certain age whose country was... "not all that modern" even 40 years ago, I can tell you that western men have little to no idea of what males from certain civilizations are told to think.
In Portugal's case, when I was young, we were expected to try get all the women we could, willingly or not, and never to take 'no' for an answer. This including chasing them in the streets in broad daylight. On the reverse side of the coin, we were to defend our female relatives/love interests from the other males, and to use violence whenever required, which could be quite often.
Um thanks for sharing that. I'll remember that next time I see a Portuguese guy. Why did you share this exactly?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 09, 2015, 02:10:02 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on October 09, 2015, 12:31:51 PM
I had meant the people fleeing Syria, specifically; sorry for not being clearer. I think we would describe the people from the Balkans as "Immigrants" which has a more neutral connotation for us (positively "America is a land of immigrants," negatively "Illegal immigrant.") "Migrant," I think, is a little more negative ("Migrant worker.")
To me immigrant connotes someone who moves to another country in accordance with the law.
Same here. For me the difference between a migrant, refugee and expatriate is a matter of description rather than of moral judgement.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 09, 2015, 02:10:02 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on October 09, 2015, 12:31:51 PM
I had meant the people fleeing Syria, specifically; sorry for not being clearer. I think we would describe the people from the Balkans as "Immigrants" which has a more neutral connotation for us (positively "America is a land of immigrants," negatively "Illegal immigrant.") "Migrant," I think, is a little more negative ("Migrant worker.")
To me immigrant connotes someone who moves to another country in accordance with the law.
I dunno, what about the widespread use of the term "illegal immigrant"?
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2015, 03:54:27 PM
I dunno, what about the widespread use of the term "illegal immigrant"?
The adjective "illegal" changes the meaning.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 09, 2015, 03:56:48 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2015, 03:54:27 PM
I dunno, what about the widespread use of the term "illegal immigrant"?
The adjective "illegal" changes the meaning.
Yup. What I'm thinking is that if one qualifies the term "immigrant" with "illegal", that means the term "immigrant" is more general than "someone who moves in accordance with the law". It is someone who moves, maybe in accordance with the law, and maybe not - hence qualifiers "legal" or "illegal".
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2015, 04:00:42 PM
Yup. What I'm thinking is that if one qualifies the term "immigrant" with "illegal", that means the term "immigrant" is more general than "someone who moves in accordance with the law". It is someone who moves, maybe in accordance with the law, and maybe not - hence qualifiers "legal" or "illegal".
In your experience do you find that people feel the need to qualify immigrate with legal when that's what they are referring to? I do not.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 09, 2015, 04:12:13 PM
In your experience do you find that people feel the need to qualify immigrate with legal when that's what they are referring to? I do not.
If they're excluding illegal immigrants from their statement, then yes.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 09, 2015, 04:15:36 PM
If they're excluding illegal immigrants from their statement, then yes.
Right, it's only used (in my experience) when the speaker is purposefully trying to contrast legal and illegal immigration. Again in my experience, when someone says "my parents immigrated to this country 20 years ago," or "I'm thinking about emigrating to Australia," the strong suggestion is that it was done legally.
To me, "refugee" would describe someone displaced by some sort of crisis (be it political, environmental, or what-have-you) for an indefinite but temporary period, whereas "immigrant" (and its opposite, "emigrant") would describe someone moving to a different country on what is intended to be a permanent basis. "Migrant" would describe someone who is moving around on a constant or near constant basis, as in a migrant farm worker who moves around the country on a seasonal basis.
In case you are thinking the migration wave is over, think again.
This weekend, 23 001 migrants/refugees crossed into Hungary.
It's just less hussle these days because there is now a well-oiled mechanism in place, which starts around Greece/Macedonia and ends in Austria, or I'd imagine, Germany, where each country picks up the incomings and promplty dumps them in their relevant neighbour's doorstep.
The irony of all this is that, if the EU (or at least the Eurozone) were a properly functioning federal country much like the US, the migrants would just stay in Greece or Italy, much like the Mexicans staying in the border states of the US.
Quote from: PJL on October 12, 2015, 08:52:47 AM
like the Mexicans staying in the border states of the US.
But they don't.
Quote from: PJL on October 12, 2015, 08:52:47 AM
The irony of all this is that, if the EU (or at least the Eurozone) were a properly functioning federal country much like the US, the migrants would just stay in Greece or Italy, much like the Mexicans staying in the border states of the US.
Well to be fair the best states in the US just happen to be the border states -_-
Well ok Arizona sucks. That is the exception.
Quote from: PJL on October 12, 2015, 08:52:47 AM
The irony of all this is that, if the EU (or at least the Eurozone) were a properly functioning federal country much like the US, the migrants would just stay in Greece or Italy, much like the Mexicans staying in the border states of the US.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/05/14/15-states-with-the-highest-share-of-immigrants-in-their-population/
California, New York, New Jersey, Florida ...
That seems to be all over the place...
Those are not just Mexicans -_-
But the Mexicans don't all stick to the border states either. Illinois, North Carolina, New York, Georgia, Florida, Washington, Colorado and Nevada all have over 200,000(which is more than New Mexico).
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/us-immigrant-population-state-and-county?width=1000&height=850&iframe=true (http://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/us-immigrant-population-state-and-county?width=1000&height=850&iframe=true)
Quote from: Valmy on October 12, 2015, 09:27:34 AM
Those are not just Mexicans -_-
The migrants that come to Greece or Italy are typically not from directly neighbouring countries so the comparison to Mexicans does not fit. Do other Latin American immigrants concentrate in the Southern states of the US?
Quote from: Zanza on October 12, 2015, 09:45:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 12, 2015, 09:27:34 AM
Those are not just Mexicans -_-
The migrants that come to Greece or Italy are typically not from directly neighbouring countries so the comparison to Mexicans does not fit.
No it is a nonsense analogy for dozens of reasons.
QuoteDo other Latin American immigrants concentrate in the Southern states of the US?
Well Lusti does live in Alabama so...but he does not count since he is not an immigrant.
But no. Latin Americans have gathered in four states: Texas, California, New York, and Florida. Their points of entry I presume.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 12, 2015, 09:36:14 AM
But the Mexicans don't all stick to the border states either. Illinois, North Carolina, New York, Georgia, Florida, Washington, Colorado and Nevada all have over 200,000(which is more than New Mexico).
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/us-immigrant-population-state-and-county?width=1000&height=850&iframe=true (http://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/us-immigrant-population-state-and-county?width=1000&height=850&iframe=true)
I love how there are 100,000 Polish Immigrants in Chicago. They just cannot get enough of immigrating to Chicago.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34561531
QuoteGerman mayoral candidate Reker stabbed over refugee support
A leading candidate in Cologne's mayoral race has been stabbed in the neck by a man claiming to be angry over the country's refugee policies.
Henriette Reker - an independent candidate supported by Chancellor Angela Merkel's CDU party - was seriously injured along with an aide. Three others suffered minor injuries.
Local police said Ms Reker, 58, was "stable, but not out of the woods".
Police have arrested a 44-year-old German national and Cologne resident.
The attacker told police he stabbed Ms Reker "because of anti-foreigner motives," senior police investigator Norbert Wagner said.
The suspect appeared to have acted alone and had no police record, Mr Wagner added.
Ralf Jager, a regional interior minister, said: "The first signs speak for a politically motivated act."
The attacker will undergo a psychiatric examination to establish whether that was his primary motive or whether he had a health problem.
A spokesman for Ms Merkel said the chancellor "expressed her shock and condemned this act".
Germany's interior minister, Thomas de Maiziere, called the attack "appalling and cowardly".
City officials said the election would go ahead as planned. Ms Reker has been the head of Cologne's social affairs and integration department since 2010.
Ms Merkel has come under fire from some in Germany over the large numbers of refugees and migrants being allowed into the country.
Germany has said it expects 800,000 people to seek asylum this year, but a leaked report suggested the number could be as high as 1.5 million.
Politically-motivated attacks are relatively rare in Germany. In 1990, then-Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble was shot while out campaigning, an attack that left him using a wheelchair.
A few months earlier, Oskar Lafontaine, then a prominent member of Germany's main opposition party, was stabbed in the neck by a mentally disturbed woman.
Quote from: dps on October 10, 2015, 04:02:28 AM
To me, "refugee" would describe someone displaced by some sort of crisis (be it political, environmental, or what-have-you) for an indefinite but temporary period, whereas "immigrant" (and its opposite, "emigrant") would describe someone moving to a different country on what is intended to be a permanent basis. "Migrant" would describe someone who is moving around on a constant or near constant basis, as in a migrant farm worker who moves around the country on a seasonal basis.
Perhaps instead of trying to understand what the term means "to you", you should read what it means in law, such as, I don't know, the Geneva Convention relating to the Status of Refugees? :)
For example the temporary element is not an inherent part of the refugee definition.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 09, 2015, 02:10:02 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on October 09, 2015, 12:31:51 PM
I had meant the people fleeing Syria, specifically; sorry for not being clearer. I think we would describe the people from the Balkans as "Immigrants" which has a more neutral connotation for us (positively "America is a land of immigrants," negatively "Illegal immigrant.") "Migrant," I think, is a little more negative ("Migrant worker.")
To me immigrant connotes someone who moves to another country in accordance with the law.
That would make all bona fide refugees immigrants, which I don't believe is the case when this expression is used.
This is because, under the aforementioned convention, an entry of a bona fide refugee (i.e. someone who fulfils the criteria for being a refugee) into a country which is a party to the convention is automatically legalised, provided he or she presents himself or herself to the authorities, irrespective of whether it may have been done not in accordance with local immigration rules. I think people ignore this part when talking about "illegal immigrants".
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 09, 2015, 03:56:48 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 09, 2015, 03:54:27 PM
I dunno, what about the widespread use of the term "illegal immigrant"?
The adjective "illegal" changes the meaning.
That doesn't make sense. It's like using the expression "man without a penis" to denote a woman. At least logically speaking, if you add an adjective to a noun, it usually connotes a sub-set of the group represented by the noun, not something opposite to the adjective-less noun.
Quote from: PJL on October 12, 2015, 08:52:47 AM
The irony of all this is that, if the EU (or at least the Eurozone) were a properly functioning federal country much like the US, the migrants would just stay in Greece or Italy, much like the Mexicans staying in the border states of the US.
Not sure if serious. :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on October 12, 2015, 10:11:15 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 12, 2015, 09:36:14 AM
But the Mexicans don't all stick to the border states either. Illinois, North Carolina, New York, Georgia, Florida, Washington, Colorado and Nevada all have over 200,000(which is more than New Mexico).
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/us-immigrant-population-state-and-county?width=1000&height=850&iframe=true (http://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/us-immigrant-population-state-and-county?width=1000&height=850&iframe=true)
I love how there are 100,000 Polish Immigrants in Chicago. They just cannot get enough of immigrating to Chicago.
Well, right now, in Warsaw it is raining, cloudy and the temperature is just above freezing. I suppose Chicago has similar weather. :P
Polish style pizza sucks.
Quote from: Martinus on October 18, 2015, 02:05:59 AM
That doesn't make sense. It's like using the expression "man without a penis" to denote a woman. At least logically speaking, if you add an adjective to a noun, it usually connotes a sub-set of the group represented by the noun, not something opposite to the adjective-less noun.
Do you understand what connote means?
Yes, one can immigrate legally and illegally. My contention is when used with out the modifier it is generally understood to refer to the legal kind. Just as it is generally understood to refer to a human instead of an Martian or a bacteria.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 18, 2015, 02:16:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 18, 2015, 02:05:59 AM
That doesn't make sense. It's like using the expression "man without a penis" to denote a woman. At least logically speaking, if you add an adjective to a noun, it usually connotes a sub-set of the group represented by the noun, not something opposite to the adjective-less noun.
Do you understand what connote means?
Yes, one can immigrate legally and illegally. My contention is when used with out the modifier it is generally understood to refer to the legal kind. Just as it is generally understood to refer to a human instead of an Martian or a bacteria.
And I disagree - when I hear someone talking about "immigration" to a given country, I understand that to mean both legal and illegal immigration, unless the context specifically implies otherwise (e.g. the data being used is clearly stated to be the official numbers).
Incidentally, Polish immigrants in Chicago are the worst bunch. They are usually the dumbest yokels who need to keep together with others of their kind because they are too stupid to meld in. Unfortunately, thanks to Poland's very generous foreign voting laws (I guess a legacy of our emigration history), all these fucks can vote in all elections in Poland (and their votes just add up to the Warsaw district, of all places) and almost always vote for right wing nationalists.
The successful Poles do not end up in Chicago but rather in NYC or LA and they rarely stick together with the "Polish community".
Quote from: Martinus on October 18, 2015, 02:20:27 AM
And I disagree
Then next time why don't you just say that and spare us the nonsense about the Geneva Convention and men without penises.
The Syrians are now complaining about all the Albanians and Kosovians(sp?) that are in majority in the giant tent camps in Germany. "They are aggressive and start fights, why are they even here? They're not fleeing from war."
They have a point there.
They're fleeing to welfare. Surely we must help any and all refugees.
Quote from: Martinus on October 18, 2015, 01:57:50 AM
Quote from: dps on October 10, 2015, 04:02:28 AM
To me, "refugee" would describe someone displaced by some sort of crisis (be it political, environmental, or what-have-you) for an indefinite but temporary period, whereas "immigrant" (and its opposite, "emigrant") would describe someone moving to a different country on what is intended to be a permanent basis. "Migrant" would describe someone who is moving around on a constant or near constant basis, as in a migrant farm worker who moves around the country on a seasonal basis.
Perhaps instead of trying to understand what the term means "to you", you should read what it means in law, such as, I don't know, the Geneva Convention relating to the Status of Refugees? :)
Well, that would be relevant if the discussion were limited to what the Geneva Convention has to say about refugees. I wasn't aware that we had agreed to that limitation here.
The Hungarian camera woman who tripped a refugee and his child is now sueing the refugee. And also Facebook. She told a Russian newspaper why, but it doesn't make any sense, which fits fine with her wanting to migrate to Russia.
If you want to know why: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/hungarian-camerawoman-petra-laszlo-plans-014537801.html#1LfeoIG
:misha: (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fyoursmiles.org%2Fmsmile%2Fflag%2FRussia.gif&hash=9140fc9697fe4f4763f9b4ab208c5f5d75d86ab4)
Can't we get a Russia smiley? Maybe somehow a mix of :XD: and :rolleyes:
Quote from: Liep on October 21, 2015, 05:22:36 AM
Maybe somehow a mix of :XD: and :rolleyes:
Sounds like :nelson:
With the Hungarians fencing closing their border with Croatia, Slovenia is already ordering its army to its border with Croatia to be able to handle the influx. There was even use of teargas on the border yesterday, as Croatia and Slovenia are trying to keep the passage of refugees in a controlled and limited manner and said refugees get wary of waiting.
I guess it is worth noting that Hungary was putting up with this pressure longer than either Slovenia or Croatia without resorting to violence and army-sending, yet the two Balkan countries aren't receiving any bad press for it. I guess it comes down to the arrogant style of the Orban govenrment.
Quote from: Tamas on October 21, 2015, 05:48:04 AM
I guess it comes down to the arrogant style of the Orban govenrment.
Style counts for a lot yes. That and the vagaries of timing and the public mood.
The major parties in Sweden are now discussing the volume of immigrants. Even thinking about this was racism and fascism just a few months ago. I don't understand anymore!
Quote from: The Brain on October 21, 2015, 12:35:44 PM
The major parties in Sweden are now discussing the volume of immigrants. Even thinking about this was racism and fascism just a few months ago. I don't understand anymore!
Will Sweden start selling ball bearings to themselves now?
Quote from: Valmy on October 21, 2015, 12:36:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 21, 2015, 12:35:44 PM
The major parties in Sweden are now discussing the volume of immigrants. Even thinking about this was racism and fascism just a few months ago. I don't understand anymore!
Will Sweden start selling ball bearings to themselves now?
I can only hope.
Quote from: The Brain on October 21, 2015, 12:35:44 PM
The major parties in Sweden are now discussing the volume of immigrants. Even thinking about this was racism and fascism just a few months ago. I don't understand anymore!
We are living in the post-rational era :(
Quote from: The Brain on October 21, 2015, 12:39:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 21, 2015, 12:36:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 21, 2015, 12:35:44 PM
The major parties in Sweden are now discussing the volume of immigrants. Even thinking about this was racism and fascism just a few months ago. I don't understand anymore!
Will Sweden start selling ball bearings to themselves now?
I can only hope.
Wait, I thought Sweden just sold the iron ore?
Quote from: Tamas on October 21, 2015, 05:48:04 AM
With the Hungarians fencing closing their border with Croatia, Slovenia is already ordering its army to its border with Croatia to be able to handle the influx. There was even use of teargas on the border yesterday, as Croatia and Slovenia are trying to keep the passage of refugees in a controlled and limited manner and said refugees get wary of waiting.
I guess it is worth noting that Hungary was putting up with this pressure longer than either Slovenia or Croatia without resorting to violence and army-sending, yet the two Balkan countries aren't receiving any bad press for it. I guess it comes down to the arrogant style of the Orban govenrment.
People are getting bored with the refugee crisis on Facebook and Twitter.
So much for my long delayed Balkans trip I guess
Quote from: Tyr on October 22, 2015, 01:47:53 AM
So much for my long delayed Balkans trip I guess
I'm still planning on going for my Balkan cycling tour this spring. My current Ljubljana - Zagreb - Beograd route may be somewhat altered though.
Quote from: Liep on October 22, 2015, 02:45:14 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 22, 2015, 01:47:53 AM
So much for my long delayed Balkans trip I guess
I'm still planning on going for my Balkan cycling tour this spring. My current Ljubljana - Zagreb - Beograd route may be somewhat altered though.
:cool:
Austria's Interior Minister has said that we must build Fortress Europe (Festung Europa). Didn't work out well when last we tried. :hmm:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5d/57/19/5d5719819b17baa46b22ec4669186364.jpg)
Quote from: Syt on October 23, 2015, 04:48:33 AM
Austria's Interior Minister has said that we must build Fortress Europe (Festung Europa). Didn't work out well when last we tried. :hmm:
So the US armed forces and the Red Army, inter alii, were just peaceful refugees looking for asylum into the Third Reich (Fourth Reich now?!)? :hmm:
Meanwhile
QuoteWomen Refugees Fleeing Through Europe Are Told Rape Is Not A Real Issue
Refugees are facing sexual assault as they traverse central and western Europe — but aid agencies claim this "is definitely not the problem." Jina Moore reports from Germany, Serbia, and Croatia.
Jina Moore
BuzzFeed News World Correspondent
posted on Oct. 21, 2015, at 9:58 p.m.
TweetTumblr
HEIDELBERG, Germany; BELGRADE, Serbia; and TOVARNIK, Croatia — Layan's thick, black hair is a waterfall. It zigzags down her back in frizzy waves. In normal life, in the better days back in Damascus, it was all smoothed out, closer to curls, but things haven't been normal for a while, and right now, in a Heidelberg refugee camp, her hair is the least of her problems.
It's her glasses that are driving her crazy. They snapped on both sides somewhere between Macedonia and Germany. She's wrapped them with white tape so thick it looks like gauze, but inevitably, they fall apart on her face while she's talking. Layan can't see much without them — people and places become shapes and shadows — but she just presses them back together and hopes for the best. It's the only way.
Layan is practical, focused, and no-nonsense. She's a fighter, which is not a thing you should have to be at 15.
These are traits that came in handy when a man tried to snatch Layan at a public restroom in Macedonia.
It was evening, around 8 p.m., and dark. Layan was waiting for the bathroom, in a mixed line, men and women all waiting for their turn. There was a bar nearby, and some of the men around were drunk. She felt someone grab her, just above her wrist, and then try to wrap a hand around her mouth. She was already screaming — shrieking her brother's name, pushing out any sound she could. Her screaming caught the man off guard, and her brother came running. The assailant — a man she thinks was a Macedonian — ran away.
She felt someone grab her ... and then try to wrap a hand around her mouth.
Layan and her mother think the man wanted to rape her, and it turned the brave teenager timid. "After that, I was always with my brother," she said.
Layan was lucky, but there are probably hundreds of moments like this on the dangerous journey that nearly half a million people have already made this year from Turkey to western Europe. It's a journey that seems safer than the alternative: Most are escaping Syria's nearly five-year civil war, which has killed an estimated 250,000 people and forced another 4 million to flee. Others are fleeing fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There's no official count of how many women are making this journey, and there's hardly any official acknowledgment of stories like Layan's, or those of other women who described to BuzzFeed News a danger that's so far been invisible on this journey — those moments where a man senses opportunity, or feels his circumstantial power, and tries to coerce or force sex, or otherwise uses violence on women.
In fact, the major authorities responding to the crisis will say that stories like these do not exist.
Over two weeks, BuzzFeed News interviewed more than a dozen officials in the major organizations responding to the refugee crisis, including the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) and national offices of the Red Cross, in capitals and at border points spanning the common route from Greece to Germany. These officials said they had never heard of a case of sexual or gender-based violence along that route.
"I don't see how there's a gender issue here, honestly," said Melita Šunjić, the senior public information office for the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) Serbia office. "I'm fully aware of what you're talking about, but these issues happen when you register women in refugee camps, when certain people get privileges and aid and others don't, things like that. There's not even time for that ... At the moment, this [sexual assault or exploitation] is definitely not the problem."
Except for when it is.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jinamoore/women-refugees-fleeing-through-europe-are-told-rape-is-not-a#.rj0BDJNer (http://www.buzzfeed.com/jinamoore/women-refugees-fleeing-through-europe-are-told-rape-is-not-a#.rj0BDJNer)
Well what did you expect? If they acknowledge its existence they have to act on it, which is impossible, so to avoid failing at their job, they deny the problem even exists.
Quote from: Syt on October 23, 2015, 04:48:33 AM
Austria's Interior Minister has said that we must build Fortress Europe (Festung Europa). Didn't work out well when last we tried. :hmm:
Fortress Europe is a term that has been used a lot in the last few years regarding all the measures that the EU has taken to prevent illegal inmigrants from getting there.
Quote from: The Larch on October 23, 2015, 06:11:13 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 23, 2015, 04:48:33 AM
Austria's Interior Minister has said that we must build Fortress Europe (Festung Europa). Didn't work out well when last we tried. :hmm:
Fortress Europe is a term that has been used a lot in the last few years regarding all the measures that the EU has taken to prevent illegal inmigrants from getting there.
I still have to see that fortress in action though. Currently, and for years, it is/has been "Sieve Europa"
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2015, 07:02:47 AM
Quote from: The Larch on October 23, 2015, 06:11:13 AM
Quote from: Syt on October 23, 2015, 04:48:33 AM
Austria's Interior Minister has said that we must build Fortress Europe (Festung Europa). Didn't work out well when last we tried. :hmm:
Fortress Europe is a term that has been used a lot in the last few years regarding all the measures that the EU has taken to prevent illegal inmigrants from getting there.
I still have to see that fortress in action though. Currently, and for years, it is/has been "Sieve Europa"
As always, it is a matter of who is more desperate and determined.
Some refugees broke out of camps recently both in Slovenia and Austria, supposedly, and now marching on railroad tracks and roads. The article said "authorities are incapable to handle it"
No, they are not incapable, they are
unwilling to handle it. Which may be the moral choice, but still that's all this is down to: the refugees/migrants are desperate enough that they are not accepting no for an answer. Only violently locking them up and deporting them will stop that.
Which isn't an easy decision - brutal police violence against civilians, whole families.
But Europe will either have to do that, or take them all in, because right now it seems that cooperation with local and EU laws will put the refugees into impossible situations and prevent them from reaching their goal, while disobeying those laws and refusing to cooperate with authorities gets them what they want/need. So they would be pretty stupid to play by our rules.
It is useless to prevent people from coming. Either accept them or send them back on arrival.
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2015, 07:13:26 AM
No, they are not incapable, they are unwilling to handle it.
basically the authorities abdicating the power of the state. Authorities who do that don't remain authorities for long. And states that don't maintain control over their borders get wiped of the map.
QuoteAnd states that don't maintain control over their borders get wiped of the map.
Example? The only state I can think of that fits the description is East Germany. But they had to control their border to keep people in, not to keep them out.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4cdn.hu%2Fkraken%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--Nd9lT76A--%2Fw_340%2F6mLVFtE62BdWKeDls.jpeg&hash=7a4a0e3b803a7560ddd64a5cbd14029c0d505537)
Rather dramatic but fitting, I guess
Walking Dead?
What will wider Europe going to do when migrants start freezing to death this Winter?
Quote from: mongers on October 23, 2015, 10:13:38 AM
What is wider Europe going to do when migrants start freezing to death this Winter?
React with outrage and then forget about it when newspapers move to another thing the next week.
Quote from: Liep on October 23, 2015, 10:16:48 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 23, 2015, 10:13:38 AM
What is wider Europe going to do when migrants start freezing to death this Winter?
React with outrage and then forget about it when newspapers move to another thing the next week.
Oh I don't doubt, despite the crisis continuing and getting worse in some aspects; Lesbos is set to get 210,000 refugees/migrants this month, running at 7,000 arrivals a day, this on an island of just 80,000. The UN, aid agencies, greek government and local volunteers there are at breaking point.
Quote from: Liep on October 23, 2015, 10:16:48 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 23, 2015, 10:13:38 AM
What is wider Europe going to do when migrants start freezing to death this Winter?
React with outrage and then forget about it when newspapers move to another thing the next week.
The refugee crisis? Is that still a thing?
Never mind the idiotic text at the end but this is what pisses me off about the "refugees". Namely they are not refugees.
They encounter the authorities in Austria, which, excuse me, is safe and civilised by any kind of standards, and this is what happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk
As I have said many times I am unconvinced that abandoning the rule of law is a great move.
Also, deportations from Germany will start next week.
Expect either no deportations, or lots of scenes of angst and drama and violence.
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2015, 11:41:09 AM
They encounter the authorities in Austria, which, excuse me, is safe and civilised by any kind of standards, and this is what happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk
Exactly. And that is what will happen everywhere. The migrants have overwhelming numbers, so they have no reason to obey any kind of law - unless true and potentially harmful physical force can be applied, they cannot be stopped.
Quote from: Tamas
Also, deportations from Germany will start next week.
Expect either no deportations, or lots of scenes of angst and drama and violence.
Apart from the fact that Germany always deported few of those that where refused aslym (they just kept in a state of limbo in Germany, getting less welfare), the child-like notion that some Germans have that many migrants will be deported is nothing but willful thought. Which is rather sad.
Think about it. Authorities come to deport migrants. What you think will happen?
a) They comply like civilized europeans, and follow the authorities to be sent back, ruining all their efforts to arrive;
or
b) They look around, realize that there are 100 of them for every security agent, so they proceed to beat the living daylights out of the officers, then move to randomly riot and loot their surroundings until their demands are met.
Quote from: mongers
What will wider Europe going to do when migrants start freezing to death this Winter?
Freezing? Why?
All they need to do is go to the nearest buildings, kick everyone out by force and take the lodgings to themselves. End of freezing.
If power is cut or food comes short, go to next place (unless it's already taken by another group).
Really, if authories are not ready to use deadly force (and if they are not and just use water and batons, they are outnumbered 50 or 100 to 1 by the migrants, 65% of which are fighting age young men, many with military training, so the outcome of any clash of that nature is obvious) then there is no stopping this wave.
This also means that all the quota system is in shambles - EU leaders argued a lot about dividing migrants bewteen themselves, but nobody asked the migrants. Who then just refuse to go to where they are alloted. Or will get out of there if they happen to be actually be sent for some reason, as they have no intention or motive to obey any rules. So the whole solution is a farce - much talk, no results.
The only thing the migrants need is critical mass. For that they require numbers, and according to the German authorities and Der Spiegel, they are getting reinforcements at a rate of 10,000 a day - so they will get the numbers they need.
By next year, they will be millions.
Either we do something, or we have to admit that the days of the Rule of Law are over in Europe.
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 09:19:16 AM
QuoteAnd states that don't maintain control over their borders get wiped of the map.
Example? The only state I can think of that fits the description is East Germany. But they had to control their border to keep people in, not to keep them out.
about every state that no longer exists.
QuoteApart from the fact that Germany always deported few of those that where refused aslym (they just kept in a state of limbo in Germany, getting less welfare), the child-like notion that some Germans have that many migrants will be deported is nothing but willful thought. Which is rather sad.
Think about it. Authorities come to deport migrants. What you think will happen?
a) They comply like civilized europeans, and follow the authorities to be sent back, ruining all their efforts to arrive;
...sitting on a bus for 20 hours isn't much effort.
QuoteThis also means that all the quota system is in shambles - EU leaders argued a lot about dividing migrants bewteen themselves, but nobody asked the migrants. Who then just refuse to go to where they are alloted. Or will get out of there if they happen to be actually be sent for some reason, as they have no intention or motive to obey any rules. So the whole solution is a farce - much talk, no results.
Getting aid sounds like a pretty good reason to stay where they're sent.
But its null, looks like it isn't going to happen anytime soon. People are idiots.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2015, 12:47:33 PM
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 09:19:16 AM
QuoteAnd states that don't maintain control over their borders get wiped of the map.
Example? The only state I can think of that fits the description is East Germany. But they had to control their border to keep people in, not to keep them out.
about every state that no longer exists.
Name just one.
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2015, 11:59:52 AM
Also, deportations from Germany will start next week.
Expect either no deportations, or lots of scenes of angst and drama and violence.
If the early 1990s when we had the last big wave of asylum seekers (from the disintegration of Yugoslavia mainly) are an indication, deportations will be ramped up a lot. Back then we deported tens of thousands per year. Deportation is only the ultima ratio by the way. The first thing our authorities do is telling rejected asylum claimants that they need to leave. There are no good statistics on how many actually leave voluntarily, but the last time we actually counted inhabitants in Germany in 2011 we found that there was a million foreigners less than expected.
Deportations are a popular measure and rejected asylum seekers have barely any lobby. It makes sense for a politician to be tough on this.
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 02:39:54 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2015, 12:47:33 PM
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 09:19:16 AM
QuoteAnd states that don't maintain control over their borders get wiped of the map.
Example? The only state I can think of that fits the description is East Germany. But they had to control their border to keep people in, not to keep them out.
about every state that no longer exists.
Name just one.
Rome!!!1111
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 02:46:05 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2015, 11:59:52 AM
Also, deportations from Germany will start next week.
Expect either no deportations, or lots of scenes of angst and drama and violence.
If the early 1990s when we had the last big wave of asylum seekers (from the disintegration of Yugoslavia mainly) are an indication, deportations will be ramped up a lot. Back then we deported tens of thousands per year. Deportation is only the ultima ratio by the way. The first thing our authorities do is telling rejected asylum claimants that they need to leave. There are no good statistics on how many actually leave voluntarily, but the last time we actually counted inhabitants in Germany in 2011 we found that there was a million foreigners less than expected.
Deportations are a popular measure and rejected asylum seekers have barely any lobby. It makes sense for a politician to be tough on this.
Well, 1 million is a lot better than 6 million I suppose.
Quote from: Tyr on October 23, 2015, 02:47:23 PM
Rome!!!1111
Very questionable if the migrations were caused by the collapse of the empire or vice versa. And that was a military invasion that took 200 years and actual open battles. I don't think it can serve as any kind of meaningful reference.
Has there been a state that ceased to exist because of migration (not war!) in the last millenium somewhere? Serious question. Because I am not aware of such a state.
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 02:39:54 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2015, 12:47:33 PM
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 09:19:16 AM
QuoteAnd states that don't maintain control over their borders get wiped of the map.
Example? The only state I can think of that fits the description is East Germany. But they had to control their border to keep people in, not to keep them out.
about every state that no longer exists.
Name just one.
Poland, a couple of times. In case you were thinking that losing control over a states borders only happens with mass migrations, which obviously it doesn't. Maintaining the borders is what a state has to do at all times, in all circumstances. No borders, no state.
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 02:57:07 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 23, 2015, 02:47:23 PM
Rome!!!1111
Very questionable if the migrations were caused by the collapse of the empire or vice versa. And that was a military invasion that took 200 years and actual open battles. I don't think it can serve as any kind of meaningful reference.
Maybe in a century and after some wars the reference will be quite a bit more meaningful.
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 02:57:07 PM
Has there been a state that ceased to exist because of migration (not war!) in the last millenium somewhere? Serious question. Because I am not aware of such a state.
mass migration and conflict are two sides of the same coin. If at the end of this phase there won't have been conflicts it would be a first. And given that the current phase may go one for years, if not decades (and why not centuries) it's a bit early to make a verdict.
You already came to your conclusion as stated above, namely that the current events will somehow destroy our states. So why is it not too early for you to make a verdict?
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2015, 03:32:22 PM
Poland, a couple of times. In case you were thinking that losing control over a states borders only happens with mass migrations, which obviously it doesn't. Maintaining the borders is what a state has to do at all times, in all circumstances. No borders, no state.
No one questions e.g. Germany's territorial sovereignity though. You can't compare that with the divisions of Poland in the late 18th century where sovereignity went from the Polish state to other states. Even with a million migrants this year there is no question that Germany is ultimately sovereign over its territory.
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2015, 11:41:09 AM
Never mind the idiotic text at the end but this is what pisses me off about the "refugees". Namely they are not refugees.
They encounter the authorities in Austria, which, excuse me, is safe and civilised by any kind of standards, and this is what happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk
How is that video evidence that they are not refugees?
According to Croatia they have received around 250 000 refugees since the closing of the Hungarian-Serbian border in the middle of September.
Has Germany adjusted their estimates of receiving about a million "refugees" this year yet? I mean if it has been a quarter million in one month surely that is an underestimate.
Quote from: Berkut on October 23, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2015, 11:41:09 AM
Never mind the idiotic text at the end but this is what pisses me off about the "refugees". Namely they are not refugees.
They encounter the authorities in Austria, which, excuse me, is safe and civilised by any kind of standards, and this is what happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk)
How is that video evidence that they are not refugees?
Seems to me that letting in the refugees is consistent with the classical liberal stance. Using the power of the state to limit movement and settlement is contrary to it.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 25, 2015, 06:34:46 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 23, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2015, 11:41:09 AM
Never mind the idiotic text at the end but this is what pisses me off about the "refugees". Namely they are not refugees.
They encounter the authorities in Austria, which, excuse me, is safe and civilised by any kind of standards, and this is what happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk)
How is that video evidence that they are not refugees?
Seems to me that letting in the refugees is consistent with the classical liberal stance. Using the power of the state to limit movement and settlement is contrary to it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C52TlPCVDio
Yep. Back in victorian times britain had pretty much no immigration rules.
Quote from: Tamas on October 25, 2015, 07:49:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 25, 2015, 06:34:46 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 23, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2015, 11:41:09 AM
Never mind the idiotic text at the end but this is what pisses me off about the "refugees". Namely they are not refugees.
They encounter the authorities in Austria, which, excuse me, is safe and civilised by any kind of standards, and this is what happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk)
How is that video evidence that they are not refugees?
Seems to me that letting in the refugees is consistent with the classical liberal stance. Using the power of the state to limit movement and settlement is contrary to it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C52TlPCVDio
An appeal to authority is a weak argument, who what does that make an appeal to youtube?
Tamas, I have no idea what these clips are or say, but on a practical level a lot of people won't click on unidentified youtube links as they might be at work.
As a matter of style the people I see most often linking to youtube video during a debate, tend to be those really into conspiracy theories, who without irony, tell you to go and 'research' it, by which they mean go watch hour long david icke videos. :hmm:
While I would generally agree with you, Tamas' video answers Raz' question perfectly. With an appeal to authority to be fair, but then Raz asked for the "classical liberal stance", so why not let one of its best known advocates speak.
Quote from: Zanza on October 25, 2015, 08:08:28 AM
While I would generally agree with you, Tamas' video answers Raz' question perfectly. With an appeal to authority to be fair, but then Raz asked for the "classical liberal stance", so why not let one of its best known advocates speak.
Oh that's a pity as I can't use them on this computer anyway, not that I watch youtube videos anyway. Maybe I need to employ an video description service or just ask you who's it of and what do they say? :blush:
Quote from: Tamas on October 25, 2015, 07:49:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 25, 2015, 06:34:46 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 23, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 23, 2015, 11:41:09 AM
Never mind the idiotic text at the end but this is what pisses me off about the "refugees". Namely they are not refugees.
They encounter the authorities in Austria, which, excuse me, is safe and civilised by any kind of standards, and this is what happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRO094TGGk)
How is that video evidence that they are not refugees?
Seems to me that letting in the refugees is consistent with the classical liberal stance. Using the power of the state to limit movement and settlement is contrary to it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C52TlPCVDio
Like I've said before the one good thing that this mass immigration might bring is the end of the welfare state.
It's Milton Friedman. His argument is that free immigration and a social state are mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Zanza on October 25, 2015, 08:16:03 AM
It's Milton Friedman. His argument is that free immigration and a social state are mutually exclusive.
Thanks for that. :)
Yes, immigration was more or less unrestricted into Victorian Britain. The immigrant was then free to starve or freeze and deal with discrimination and contempt for his religion, skin colour and language.
Not a situation one would like to return to, hence the restrictions on immigration.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 25, 2015, 09:03:04 AM
Yes, immigration was more or less unrestricted into Victorian Britain. The immigrant was then free to starve or freeze and deal with discrimination and contempt for his religion, skin colour and language.
Not a situation one would like to return to, hence the restrictions on immigration.
The choice being presented however is one of let some immigrants in and look after them as fellow humans or keep them all out.
Neither are parituclarly classical liberal.
@Tyr The UK is currently allowing 650,000 immigrants a year into the country and sends about 320,000 emigrants out, outside of UKIP and points right this is an accepted level. Of course we don't look after the likes of immigrants like Tamas, we make him work for a living and charge him £700 a month to live in a cupboard ;). It is a system that works, one reason I'm against accepting large numbers of "refugees" is that it subverts that system and......imo..............will lead to a backlash from the host community.
While I may be a classic liberal I do not evaluate current issues based on how they should work in the ideal society I envision.
And in this real world, letting unrestricted numbers of migrants in, from markedly different cultures, without any regard of keeping it within the confines of law, or without any kind of visible long term planning is a horrible idea.
And in a big part because it can end up very badly for the migrants themselves.
Issues with the welfare state crumbling under them aside, we just have to face it: a HUGE portion of Europe is simply not ready to coexist with such different cultures. You may hate that. I hate that. But it is the truth.
Hungary is touted as the black sheep in this manner but the fact is, it has been the state there which acted hostile. While in Germany you have the CIViLIAN POPULATION, or at least noticable parts of it, acting hostile.
As i said, these societies are simply not ready to handle this, and there are huge risks coming from this. If nothing else, then giving over leadership to far right parties, and thus opening the door for the real nastiness.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 25, 2015, 09:03:04 AM
Yes, immigration was more or less unrestricted into Victorian Britain. The immigrant was then free to starve or freeze and deal with discrimination and contempt for his religion, skin colour and language.
Same in the US...yet they kept coming anyway. I guess having all that land stolen from the Native Americans gave them someplace to go.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 25, 2015, 11:13:50 AM
@Tyr The UK is currently allowing 650,000 immigrants a year into the country and sends about 320,000 emigrants out, outside of UKIP and points right this is an accepted level. Of course we don't look after the likes of immigrants like Tamas, we make him work for a living and charge him £700 a month to live in a cupboard ;). It is a system that works, one reason I'm against accepting large numbers of "refugees" is that it subverts that system and......imo..............will lead to a backlash from the host community.
Is there any reason "refugees" in general can't work for a living?
Quote from: Tamas on October 25, 2015, 11:30:00 AM
Issues with the welfare state crumbling under them aside, we just have to face it: a HUGE portion of Europe is simply not ready to coexist with such different cultures.
and lets be honest: certain of these cultures are just as unwilling to coexist with european cultures themselves
Quote from: Zanza on October 23, 2015, 03:45:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2015, 03:32:22 PM
Poland, a couple of times. In case you were thinking that losing control over a states borders only happens with mass migrations, which obviously it doesn't. Maintaining the borders is what a state has to do at all times, in all circumstances. No borders, no state.
No one questions e.g. Germany's territorial sovereignity though. You can't compare that with the divisions of Poland in the late 18th century where sovereignity went from the Polish state to other states.
which is fancy words for saying that Poland couldn't guard its borders (and thus the rest of the country) against being removed of the map as a state.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 25, 2015, 11:13:50 AM
@Tyr The UK is currently allowing 650,000 immigrants a year into the country and sends about 320,000 emigrants out, outside of UKIP and points right this is an accepted level. Of course we don't look after the likes of immigrants like Tamas, we make him work for a living and charge him £700 a month to live in a cupboard ;). It is a system that works, one reason I'm against accepting large numbers of "refugees" is that it subverts that system and......imo..............will lead to a backlash from the host community.
That's why nobody is suggesting accepting "refugees". We should however be doing a lot more to help real refugees.
Quote from: Tyr on October 25, 2015, 04:17:49 PM
That's why nobody is suggesting accepting "refugees". We should however be doing a lot more to help real refugees.
I feel like I'm missing something here... what do you guys mean when you say "refugees"?
Do you mean "they're not really fleeing wars, they just want to go to a place where they have a chance at a better life and are just using war and persecution as an excuse"?
Do you mean "they may or may not be fleeing actual wars, but once they get here all they want to do is enjoy our services and welfare without contributing anything"?
Or do you mean, "they may or may not be fleeing actual wars, and they may or may not contribute to society in some way, but once they're here they are going to engage in weird cultural practices and refuse to assimilate with an appropriate speed and fashion"?
Who are these "refugees" and what is it they do that means you shouldn't let them in?
Quote from: Jacob on October 25, 2015, 06:17:48 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 25, 2015, 04:17:49 PM
That's why nobody is suggesting accepting "refugees". We should however be doing a lot more to help real refugees.
I feel like I'm missing something here... what do you guys mean when you say "refugees"?
Do you mean "they're not really fleeing wars, they just want to go to a place where they have a chance at a better life and are just using war and persecution as an excuse"?
Do you mean "they may or may not be fleeing actual wars, but once they get here all they want to do is enjoy our services and welfare without contributing anything"?
Or do you mean, "they may or may not be fleeing actual wars, and they may or may not contribute to society in some way, but once they're here they are going to engage in weird cultural practices and refuse to assimilate with an appropriate speed and fashion"?
Who are these "refugees" and what is it they do that means you shouldn't let them in?
If it were the US they were coming to in large numbers, my concern would be that some of them, at least, are not legitimate refugees but just people who want to immigrate for the standard economic reasons. I guess that would be your first suggested meaning. Of course, in theory, you screen them to only allow in the actual refugees, but in practice the large numbers might mean screening is not something that can be done properly in a reasonable time frame.
What Europeans who object to letting them in actually mean, of course, is "We don't want no stinking Moslems here".
Quote from: dps on October 25, 2015, 06:31:25 PM
If it were the US they were coming to in large numbers, my concern would be that some of them, at least, are not legitimate refugees but just people who want to immigrate for the standard economic reasons. I guess that would be your first suggested meaning. Of course, in theory, you screen them to only allow in the actual refugees, but in practice the large numbers might mean screening is not something that can be done properly in a reasonable time frame.
What Europeans who object to letting them in actually mean, of course, is "We don't want no stinking Moslems here".
I don't think that's what Tyr or RH mean when they say that, which is why I'm confused.
I reckon there are a number of potentially legitimate concerns that can be argued about when it comes to absorbing a relatively large influx of newcomers, but I'm not how they are relevant to the newcomers being "refugees" rather than any other sort of immigrant.
Quote from: Jacob on October 25, 2015, 06:40:28 PM
Quote from: dps on October 25, 2015, 06:31:25 PM
If it were the US they were coming to in large numbers, my concern would be that some of them, at least, are not legitimate refugees but just people who want to immigrate for the standard economic reasons. I guess that would be your first suggested meaning. Of course, in theory, you screen them to only allow in the actual refugees, but in practice the large numbers might mean screening is not something that can be done properly in a reasonable time frame.
What Europeans who object to letting them in actually mean, of course, is "We don't want no stinking Moslems here".
I don't think that's what Tyr or RH mean when they say that, which is why I'm confused.
I reckon there are a number of potentially legitimate concerns that can be argued about when it comes to absorbing a relatively large influx of newcomers, but I'm not how they are relevant to the newcomers being "refugees" rather than any other sort of immigrant.
Oh, well I think the idea there is that there is some sort of obligation to accept refugees that doesn't exist for allowing ordinary, run-of-the-mill immigrants.
EDIT: when I said "Europeans" in my previous post, I was referring to European opponents of accepting them in general, not necessarily European posters here. There are some posters here who are religious bigots, but Tyr and Richard aren't among them. And Marty, who does exhibit some religious bigotry IMO (though not as bad as some people here) has to his credit argued for helping the refugees, regardless of their religious beliefs.
Quote from: dps on October 25, 2015, 06:31:25 PM
What Europeans who object to letting them in actually mean, of course, is "We don't want no stinking Moslems here".
I don't think that's entirely fair. Can I just buy a ticket to New York, land there and expect to be allowed to live there? Of course not and religion has nothing to do with it. We live in a world of nation states, and part of the idea of nation states is that you have to seek permission before you are let in, and that permission is entirely at the discretion of the state. How come there is suddenly an obligation on Europe's part to take in millions of illegal immigrants, when said people have already been given refuge in Turkey and other states bordering Syria?
Europe has a blood debt to pay and the Syrians have come to cash in.
Quote from: Jaron on October 25, 2015, 07:54:03 PM
Europe has a blood debt to pay and the Syrians have come to cash in.
Yeah, well, speaking of blood debt, Japan also has a blood debt to pay to Hong Kong and China, so I demand my right to live in Tokyo and receive whatever welfare they have over there :contract:
Quote from: Jaron on October 25, 2015, 07:54:03 PM
Europe has a blood debt to pay and the Syrians have come to cash in.
That can fly for the big Imperial countries but I don't think Hungary or Croatia feel a particularly big debt.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 25, 2015, 07:56:36 PM
Quote from: Jaron on October 25, 2015, 07:54:03 PM
Europe has a blood debt to pay and the Syrians have come to cash in.
Yeah, well, speaking of blood debt, Japan also has a blood debt to pay to Hong Kong and China, so I demand my right to live in Tokyo and receive whatever welfare they have over there :contract:
Couldn't you be collecting welfare in the UK?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 25, 2015, 08:20:32 PM
Couldn't you be collecting welfare in the UK?
Canada too. I have never checked what welfare citizens are entitled to in the UK/Canada, or the eligibility criteria. I just assumed that it is "a lot". I don't really have any intention of ever collecting the welfare though. That's not the reason why we got the passports.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 25, 2015, 07:51:14 PM
How come there is suddenly an obligation on Europe's part to take in millions of illegal immigrants, when said people have already been given refuge in Turkey and other states bordering Syria?
They've signed treaties, the refugees' situation in Turkey, Jordan, and Lebanon was crap, and they consider being kind to strangers in need an important part of being human.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 25, 2015, 09:04:07 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 25, 2015, 07:51:14 PM
How come there is suddenly an obligation on Europe's part to take in millions of illegal immigrants, when said people have already been given refuge in Turkey and other states bordering Syria?
They've signed treaties, the refugees' situation in Turkey, Jordan, and Lebanon was crap, and they consider being kind to strangers in need an important part of being human.
Good to see someone understands the situation/crisis.
Quote from: Jacob on October 25, 2015, 06:40:28 PM
Quote from: dps on October 25, 2015, 06:31:25 PM
If it were the US they were coming to in large numbers, my concern would be that some of them, at least, are not legitimate refugees but just people who want to immigrate for the standard economic reasons. I guess that would be your first suggested meaning. Of course, in theory, you screen them to only allow in the actual refugees, but in practice the large numbers might mean screening is not something that can be done properly in a reasonable time frame.
What Europeans who object to letting them in actually mean, of course, is "We don't want no stinking Moslems here".
I don't think that's what Tyr or RH mean when they say that, which is why I'm confused.
I reckon there are a number of potentially legitimate concerns that can be argued about when it comes to absorbing a relatively large influx of newcomers, but I'm not how they are relevant to the newcomers being "refugees" rather than any other sort of immigrant.
Some refugees (as opposed to "refugees") have turned up on British soil, at one of our sovereign bases in Cyprus. They have travelled direct from Syria and, imo, should be welcomed as such.
The people travelling to Germany are passing through safe countries and, imo, are therefore not refugees but economic migrants.
It is totally understandable that people from poor countries would want to move to the rich countries of Western Europe and they do have my sympathies. But I think that if we permit immigration of this type then the demand is effectively unlimited.
So I agree with Cameron, we should shell out a lot more cash to help make the camps more acceptable.
I have also seen arguments in the media that the refugees are the elite of Syria's population (partly because they can afford to pay the traffickers) this is promoted as a reason to accept them as we need their labour. If that is true, which is dubious, I think it is even more essential that they return to Syria at some point rather than settle in the West; otherwise that country will just become an irredeemable hellhole.
I don't buy the "choose to move somewhere else once you're safe->economic immigrant unworthy of care" Thing.
What about those refugees who have family in other countries for example?
And it's really unfair on Greece to force them all to stay there.
As to the brain drain risk- that's not something the UK usually worries about when it imports foreign medical staff en masse.
Easily solved though- don't give them per.an entry residence. Give them say 2 years. To be renewed down the line. We will see based on their personal situation and the Syrian situation whether we should send them back or not- just so long as we are smarter about it than we are with those afghan kids we warehouse. ...
Quote from: Monoriu on October 25, 2015, 07:51:14 PM
Quote from: dps on October 25, 2015, 06:31:25 PM
What Europeans who object to letting them in actually mean, of course, is "We don't want no stinking Moslems here".
I don't think that's entirely fair. Can I just buy a ticket to New York, land there and expect to be allowed to live there? Of course not and religion has nothing to do with it. We live in a world of nation states, and part of the idea of nation states is that you have to seek permission before you are let in, and that permission is entirely at the discretion of the state. How come there is suddenly an obligation on Europe's part to take in millions of illegal immigrants, when said people have already been given refuge in Turkey and other states bordering Syria?
Nation states are an archaic idea that is really moving beyond its sell by date. International scale issues like this shouldn't be left enirely to petty local governments only looking out for themselves. A lot of the handling of these kind of issues should be left to international organisations that can be more objective and do a much better job at keeping human suffering to a minimum.
Quote from: Tyr on October 26, 2015, 03:02:05 AM
I don't buy the "choose to move somewhere else once you're safe->economic immigrant unworthy of care" Thing.
What about those refugees who have family in other countries for example?
I don't know about the laws on it in Europe, but in the US, potential (legal) immigrants who already have family here get preferred treatment.
QuoteAnd it's really unfair on Greece to force them all to stay there.
The obvious solution would be that countries that don't want to take in the refugees pay the Greeks to keep them.
QuoteAs to the brain drain risk- that's not something the UK usually worries about when it imports foreign medical staff en masse.
Easily solved though- don't give them per.an entry residence. Give them say 2 years. To be renewed down the line. We will see based on their personal situation and the Syrian situation whether we should send them back or not- just so long as we are smarter about it than we are with those afghan kids we warehouse. ...
Quote from: Monoriu on October 25, 2015, 07:51:14 PM
Quote from: dps on October 25, 2015, 06:31:25 PM
What Europeans who object to letting them in actually mean, of course, is "We don't want no stinking Moslems here".
I don't think that's entirely fair. Can I just buy a ticket to New York, land there and expect to be allowed to live there? Of course not and religion has nothing to do with it. We live in a world of nation states, and part of the idea of nation states is that you have to seek permission before you are let in, and that permission is entirely at the discretion of the state. How come there is suddenly an obligation on Europe's part to take in millions of illegal immigrants, when said people have already been given refuge in Turkey and other states bordering Syria?
Nation states are an archaic idea that is really moving beyond its sell by date. International scale issues like this shouldn't be left enirely to petty local governments only looking out for themselves. A lot of the handling of these kind of issues should be left to international organisations that can be more objective and do a much better job at keeping human suffering to a minimum.
While international organizations might be more objective, I don't know there's any evidence that they'd actually do a better job.
Interntional organizations also don't have any authority to force countries to accept refugees.
I have no faith in the international organisations at all. If a solution is ever achieved it will come from nation-states and will involve taking a hard road.
Meanwhile, Slovenia received 15000 migrants on Sunday alone.
IIRC the record in Hungary, little more than a month ago, was around 8-9 thousand.
It is what RH mentioned: if the EU allows unlimited and unchecked migration, the supply of migrants is practically endless, and the EU's ability to provide the EU level living conditions to them is far from it, let alone the EU population's willingness to provide it.
I think Merkel has a good point in wanting to put the newcomers through a "crash course" of integration, in teaching them German etc. I hope she manages it. Not because OMG MUSSELMEN, but because they need to integrate FAST otherwise such massive numbers will just form their own secluded societies which is horrible for everyone involved.
Quote from: Tamas on October 26, 2015, 04:25:36 AM
Meanwhile, Slovenia received 15000 migrants on Sunday alone.
IIRC the record in Hungary, little more than a month ago, was around 8-9 thousand.
I read that Lesbos alone is receiving 7.000+ each day now and almost setting a new record every day.
And it's getting colder and wetter. :(
Quote from: Liep on October 26, 2015, 04:35:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 26, 2015, 04:25:36 AM
Meanwhile, Slovenia received 15000 migrants on Sunday alone.
IIRC the record in Hungary, little more than a month ago, was around 8-9 thousand.
I read that Lesbos alone is receiving 7.000+ each day now and almost setting a new record every day.
And it's getting colder and wetter. :(
What you would expect of Lesbos, I guess.
Quote from: Martinus on October 26, 2015, 05:01:23 AM
Quote from: Liep on October 26, 2015, 04:35:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 26, 2015, 04:25:36 AM
Meanwhile, Slovenia received 15000 migrants on Sunday alone.
IIRC the record in Hungary, little more than a month ago, was around 8-9 thousand.
I read that Lesbos alone is receiving 7.000+ each day now and almost setting a new record every day.
And it's getting colder and wetter. :(
What you would expect of Lesbos, I guess.
I have been amazed how few innuendos on this journalists have made during the crisis. Maybe the rest of the world has grown up.
Quote from: Zanza on October 25, 2015, 08:08:28 AM
While I would generally agree with you, Tamas' video answers Raz' question perfectly. With an appeal to authority to be fair, but then Raz asked for the "classical liberal stance", so why not let one of its best known advocates speak.
It does in a way, but not necessarily the way Tamas thinks. Friedman builds his argument on an incorrect fact, that we had "free immigration" in 1914. This is simply not true. The US excluded East Asians because of the "markedly different culture", the same reason Tamas says having these immigrants come into this country. Distaste for the type of immigrants coming into the country. It had nothing to do with a "welfare state" and the assumption that inferior peoples are not going to work and take money from the public, it's simply we don't want inferior people here period. Friedman's argument does sort of touch on this with it being desirable if Mexicans came to the US illegally where they be second class citizens and couldn't execute their rights.
We should have never let in the Germans.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2015, 08:41:26 AM
It does in a way, but not necessarily the way Tamas thinks. Friedman builds his argument on an incorrect fact, that we had "free immigration" in 1914. This is simply not true. The US excluded East Asians because of the "markedly different culture", the same reason Tamas says having these immigrants come into this country. Distaste for the type of immigrants coming into the country. It had nothing to do with a "welfare state" and the assumption that inferior peoples are not going to work and take money from the public, it's simply we don't want inferior people here period.
Well the situation is a little different isn't it? The US is not a nation state. The entire reason for those other country's existance is the preservation and representation of their culture. They have no other reason to exist. There is no ideology behind Hungary. If they get flooded by non-Hungarian immigrants the country will cease to exist in any meaningful way. I do not think necessarily Hungary regards non-Hungarians as inferior but rather threatening to their national existence.
Anyway Friedman was not completely accurate but he is right in the sense that immigration restrictions world wide were absurdly lax in 1914 compared to today.
QuoteFriedman's argument does sort of touch on this with it being desirable if Mexicans came to the US illegally where they be second class citizens and couldn't execute their rights.
I don't agree that Mexicans are inferior. But even if they were then how would them coming here illegally be desirable if the goal is to keep inferior people out?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 26, 2015, 08:50:00 AM
We should have never let in the Germans.
Hyphenated Americans are disloyal. :yes:
Quote from: Valmy on October 26, 2015, 09:00:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2015, 08:41:26 AM
It does in a way, but not necessarily the way Tamas thinks. Friedman builds his argument on an incorrect fact, that we had "free immigration" in 1914. This is simply not true. The US excluded East Asians because of the "markedly different culture", the same reason Tamas says having these immigrants come into this country. Distaste for the type of immigrants coming into the country. It had nothing to do with a "welfare state" and the assumption that inferior peoples are not going to work and take money from the public, it's simply we don't want inferior people here period.
Well the situation is a little different isn't it? The US is not a nation state. The entire reason for those other country's existance is the preservation and representation of their culture. They have no other reason to exist. There is no ideology behind Hungary. If they get flooded by non-Hungarian immigrants the country will cease to exist in any meaningful way. I do not think necessarily Hungary regards non-Hungarians as inferior but rather threatening to their national existence.
Anyway Friedman was not completely accurate but he is right in the sense that immigration restrictions world wide were absurdly lax in 1914 compared to today.
QuoteFriedman's argument does sort of touch on this with it being desirable if Mexicans came to the US illegally where they be second class citizens and couldn't execute their rights.
I don't agree that Mexicans are inferior. But even if they were then how would them coming here illegally be desirable if the goal is to keep inferior people out?
Friedman gets it wrong, the purpose of the immigration laws which is to keep people of unwanted races out. I don't see these laws as "absurdly relaxed". Keeping Mexican immigrants illegal allows personal tyranny over them. An employer can make them do whatever he wants and if they resist the employer's wishes they will risk being punished by law.
I have no idea what the purpose of Hungary is. That's not really something I give a lot of thought to.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2015, 09:23:00 AM
Friedman gets it wrong, the purpose of the immigration laws which is to keep people of unwanted races out. I don't see these laws as "absurdly relaxed".
What laws as absurdly relaxed? I am talking about immigration laws in 1914.
Both ideas, that having a welfare state community of the nation and wanting to keep the subhuman scum out are not necessarily exclusive ideas. In fact they strike me as complimentary ideas. Getting everybody to distribute money to the nation is an easier sell than doing it to people they consider foreign.
QuoteKeeping Mexican immigrants illegal allows personal tyranny over them. An employer can make them do whatever he wants and if they resist the employer's wishes they will risk being punished by law.
Yes? So? The Mexicans keep coming and this ends after maybe one or two generations. It is desireable for somebody but certainly not for the people who want to keep the inferior peoples out.
The actual xenophobes who do not want Mexicans here are not known for thinking illegal immigration is desireable.
QuoteI have no idea what the purpose of Hungary is. That's not really something I give a lot of thought to.
Well if you are going to discuss immigration in Europe maybe thinking a bit on the essential and fundamental issues might serve you well.
You were the one to talk about the laws being absurdly relaxed! I disagreed. The Chinese exclusion act predates welfare so it can't be because of that. I postulate that current concerns have little to do with welfare and come back from the same xenophobic animosity that inspired the Chinese exclusion act.
I disagree that xenophobes are automatically opposed to having a subservient populace under their control. History in and out of the US is full of bigoted people happy to have a subservient population. Again I don't know why Hungary exists. My guess is that is about as far the political leadership of the country could push the boundaries of their power, the same reason most other countries exist and have their current borders.
Quote from: Valmy on October 26, 2015, 09:00:42 AM
Well the situation is a little different isn't it? The US is not a nation state. The entire reason for those other country's existance is the preservation and representation of their culture. They have no other reason to exist. There is no ideology behind Hungary. If they get flooded by non-Hungarian immigrants the country will cease to exist in any meaningful way. I do not think necessarily Hungary regards non-Hungarians as inferior but rather threatening to their national existence.
Not sure. After National Socialism in Germany ended, we were obviously not particular keen about nationalism anymore. That's why something called "constitutional patriotism" came up in philosophical circles. It means that you have similar constitutional values instead of similar language or ehtnicity. A lot of Germans would say that this is what makes a German these days, me included.
That obviously doesn't say anything about Hungary, but it shows that nation states can move beyond ethnicity as their defining criterion.
It is less than a century since Hungary was part of a large multi-ethnic empire, an empire that was dismantled after WW1. Every piece of land with Hungarians on it that could possibly be given to someone else, the result being a rump that was free of any minorities apart from Jews and Gypsies. I don't think it requires a massive effort of imagination to see why they might not favour massive immigration.
Not that it matters much re the current problem. The refugees/migrants prefer Germany and Sweden.
Quote from: Zanza on October 26, 2015, 10:52:31 AM
Not sure. After National Socialism in Germany ended, we were obviously not particular keen about nationalism anymore. That's why something called "constitutional patriotism" came up in philosophical circles. It means that you have similar constitutional values instead of similar language or ehtnicity. A lot of Germans would say that this is what makes a German these days, me included.
Interesting. Tell me more.
QuoteThat obviously doesn't say anything about Hungary, but it shows that nation states can move beyond ethnicity as their defining criterion.
That is the challenge isn't it? The justification for having dozens of sovereign states in such a small area is lost without it.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 26, 2015, 02:16:56 AM
Some refugees (as opposed to "refugees") have turned up on British soil, at one of our sovereign bases in Cyprus. They have travelled direct from Syria and, imo, should be welcomed as such.
The people travelling to Germany are passing through safe countries and, imo, are therefore not refugees but economic migrants.
Personally, I don't think the Dublin convention is a good measure of whether an asylum seeker is a refugee or a "refugee", so I disagree with you there; but thanks for clarifying.
QuoteIt is totally understandable that people from poor countries would want to move to the rich countries of Western Europe and they do have my sympathies. But I think that if we permit immigration of this type then the demand is effectively unlimited.
Yeah, there's something to this - there are some practical implications of mass migration - but I don't think people fleeing their home state descending into anarchy and, once having fled, having and exercising preferences to where they end up are quite the same thing as "people from poor countries wanting to move to rich countries."
QuoteSo I agree with Cameron, we should shell out a lot more cash to help make the camps more acceptable.
Personally I think leaving people to languish in camps - even if money is being spent on making them less uncomfortable - is far inferior to having them proceed to people where they can live lives - you know, contribute to the local economy, pursue education, work, and so on. Some may end up staying, some will move back if/ when the situation back home improves.
QuoteI have also seen arguments in the media that the refugees are the elite of Syria's population (partly because they can afford to pay the traffickers) this is promoted as a reason to accept them as we need their labour. If that is true, which is dubious, I think it is even more essential that they return to Syria at some point rather than settle in the West; otherwise that country will just become an irredeemable hellhole.
I don't think this is a particularly convincing counter argument, to be honest. They are people who have fled - I think the decision needs to be made on how to help them in relation to capacity for doing so. Concerns about a brain drain effects on a country in the midst of a multiple party civil war is pretty far down on the list of priorities - it's not like these people are going to go back to Syria right now. If/ when things settle down enough that a return is reasonable, the refugees will IMO be likely to contribute more if they've been active members of a society (the aforementioned working, education, participation in civil society, not to mention connections in the place of refuge) rather than if they've been stuck in a refugee camp for years.
Heh, I don't know how you do it Jacob but you have me at least partly convinced :hmm:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 26, 2015, 12:52:15 PM
Heh, I don't know how you do it Jacob but you have me at least partly convinced :hmm:
:cheers:
Even if I can agree with Jacob's sentiment, I maintain that handling this as a refugee crisis is a grave mistake both for the EU and the migrants.
More than ten thousand migrants are arriving to the EU DAILY. This means a steady increase in numbers for over a year now with no stop to the trend in sight, unless we count with a humanitarian disaster during the winter but let's hope that won't happen.
These people will be able to have more hope in the most meager German, or EU temporary shelter than in their home countries for the foreseeable future. Afghanistan, Syria, Sudan etc. will not be liveable to any kind of civilised standards for at least ten years. And by that time we may very well see more catastrophes worldwide due to climate change etc.
These ten thousand people a day are coming to stay.
There is an obligation to help but there is an obligation to maintain a maintainable course for one's country on the long run. And accepting everyone and hoping for the best is not such.
These people should be handled, as migrants. They should be evaluated for being able to stay on same grounds countries like Canada already evaluate. Eligible people should be accepted and helped in integrating into their host country's society and workforce in a determined and timely manner.
The rest should be sent away and helped in cross-border refugee camps.
Quote from: dps on October 26, 2015, 03:25:14 AM
I don't know about the laws on it in Europe, but in the US, potential (legal) immigrants who already have family here get preferred treatment.
Yeah but you can't really expect them to sit around in Syria whilst the bullets fly, waiting until Sweden finally agrees to let them move in with uncle Abdul.,
They are fleeting Syria, they don't really have any choice in their leaving, and this cuts off regular immigration avenues.
Quote
The obvious solution would be that countries that don't want to take in the refugees pay the Greeks to keep them.
Better. But still unfair on Greece.
A better system would be everyone has a quota of bodies and funding and this can be 'bought and sold' so to speak (quota for the future that is, not actually buying and selling people).
Quote
While international organizations might be more objective, I don't know there's any evidence that they'd actually do a better job.
The EU, for all its faults, its a major bit of evidence for what can be accomplished when things are done on an international scale
Quote from: Tyr on October 26, 2015, 01:14:41 PM
The EU, for all its faults, its a major bit of evidence for what can be accomplished when things are done on an international scale
As is NATO. The difference between them and the UN organizations is that they can be selective about membership.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 26, 2015, 12:52:15 PM
Heh, I don't know how you do it Jacob but you have me at least partly convinced :hmm:
It is because he speaks truth...in this matter anyway.
The problem is too many of these countries are stuck in the past.
Like in so many other matters (the environment etc), to a large part of the population the issue at its core isn't about helping people but about self-flagellation. I don't think this is a wise choice.
Quote from: The Brain on October 26, 2015, 01:43:09 PM
Like in so many other matters (the environment etc), to a large part of the population the issue at its core isn't about helping people but about self-flagellation. I don't think this is a wise choice.
:yes:
Quote from: The Brain on October 26, 2015, 01:43:09 PM
Like in so many other matters (the environment etc), to a large part of the population the issue at its core isn't about helping people but about self-flagellation. I don't think this is a wise choice.
Indeed. These sorts of matters should be based on a vision for the future and not hand wringing over the past -_-
Quote from: The Brain on October 26, 2015, 01:43:09 PM
Like in so many other matters (the environment etc), to a large part of the population the issue at its core isn't about helping people but about self-flagellation. I don't think this is a wise choice.
Yes, this is about guilt and penance, not reason or fairness.
Quote from: Valmy on October 26, 2015, 01:30:52 PM
The problem is too many of these countries are stuck in the past.
A country is nothing more than it's people. This migration will push these countries further into the past.
@Valmy: The Wiki article gives a first overview of the concept and relates it to the US as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_patriotism
By the way, the concept was mentioned by our Social Democrat vice chancellor in the current situation. He said he expects people moving to Germany to adopt this constitutional patriotism.
Another busload of "refugees" refused to get off the bus because they weren't happy with the accomodations (it was basically in the countryside, they wanted a big city). I don't think they get paid by the Sweden Democrats to do this but you'd be forgiven for thinking so. Anyway I think it's safe to say that these aren't refugees. A person who is actually running for his life isn't gonna bitch about the accomodation.
That makes no sense.
If there was a genuine risk of them being sent back if they don't accept less than ideal conditions- then there would be reason to be suspicious.
As things are though they're not going to lose anything immediately evident (good will etc being rather abstract) by wanting something once they're safe.
It's like you've got a big basket of beers and you offer me a heineken - I know youre a nice guy and I see you've also got a bunch of hoegaardens in your basket too. I ask for the better beer knowing whether you give me it or not you're not going to kick me out of the party.
Also I have to wonder how often this kind of event happens vs the likely more usual event of refugees going where they're placed.
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 06:26:32 AM
That makes no sense.
If there was a genuine risk of them being sent back if they don't accept less than ideal conditions- then there would be reason to be suspicious.
As things are though they're not going to lose anything immediately evident (good will etc being rather abstract) by wanting something once they're safe.
Also I have to wonder how often this kind of event happens vs the likely more usual event of refugees going where they're placed.
I can't advocate spending taxpayer money on people who go out of their way to show that they're not refugees. I don't feel like I can tell taxpayers to help people who spit in their faces while they're helping them.
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 06:26:32 AM
That makes no sense.
If there was a genuine risk of them being sent back if they don't accept less than ideal conditions- then there would be reason to be suspicious.
As things are though they're not going to lose anything immediately evident (good will etc being rather abstract) by wanting something once they're safe.
It's like you've got a big basket of beers and you offer me a heineken - I know youre a nice guy and I see you've also got a bunch of hoegaardens in your basket too. I ask for the better beer knowing whether you give me it or not you're not going to kick me out of the party.
Also I have to wonder how often this kind of event happens vs the likely more usual event of refugees going where they're placed.
These are decisions about life or death. Not beer. Every person we help who isn't a refugee is an actual refugee that we cannot help. Because we are about to set volume limits.
Also, if you come to my home and DEMAND stuff other than I serve you you ARE getting thrown out.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 06:02:18 AM
Another busload of "refugees" refused to get off the bus because they weren't happy with the accomodations (it was basically in the countryside, they wanted a big city)...
Are they refugees or tourists? And yet we find apologists everywhere. I don't know what's worse, these hordes of migrants or the brainless imbeciles who welcome them with open arms... <_<
G.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 06:41:52 AM
Also, if you come to my home and DEMAND stuff other than I serve you you ARE getting thrown out.
Yep
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 06:41:52 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 06:26:32 AM
That makes no sense.
If there was a genuine risk of them being sent back if they don't accept less than ideal conditions- then there would be reason to be suspicious.
As things are though they're not going to lose anything immediately evident (good will etc being rather abstract) by wanting something once they're safe.
It's like you've got a big basket of beers and you offer me a heineken - I know youre a nice guy and I see you've also got a bunch of hoegaardens in your basket too. I ask for the better beer knowing whether you give me it or not you're not going to kick me out of the party.
Also I have to wonder how often this kind of event happens vs the likely more usual event of refugees going where they're placed.
These are decisions about life or death. Not beer. Every person we help who isn't a refugee is an actual refugee that we cannot help. Because we are about to set volume limits.
Also, if you come to my home and DEMAND stuff other than I serve you you ARE getting thrown out.
You've missed the point.
You're assuming they're not refugees purely because once they've attained safety they want more than the minimum. There is no logical connection to make this the case.
Ive no issue with getting tough on them, telling them to be more grateful and accept what they're given.
Branding them as fakers just because they reach for more though?
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 10:27:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 06:41:52 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 06:26:32 AM
That makes no sense.
If there was a genuine risk of them being sent back if they don't accept less than ideal conditions- then there would be reason to be suspicious.
As things are though they're not going to lose anything immediately evident (good will etc being rather abstract) by wanting something once they're safe.
It's like you've got a big basket of beers and you offer me a heineken - I know youre a nice guy and I see you've also got a bunch of hoegaardens in your basket too. I ask for the better beer knowing whether you give me it or not you're not going to kick me out of the party.
Also I have to wonder how often this kind of event happens vs the likely more usual event of refugees going where they're placed.
These are decisions about life or death. Not beer. Every person we help who isn't a refugee is an actual refugee that we cannot help. Because we are about to set volume limits.
Also, if you come to my home and DEMAND stuff other than I serve you you ARE getting thrown out.
You've missed the point.
You're assuming they're not refugees purely because once they've attained safety they want more than the minimum. There is no logical connection to make this the case.
Ive no issue with getting tough on them, telling them to be more grateful and accept what they're given.
Branding them as fakers just because they reach for more though?
This is also an important disctinction in terms of the reaction of the EU public. By invoking the "they are all refugees" card, some imply that the EU is REQUIRED to take care of them out of guilt/whatever.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 06:34:34 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 06:26:32 AM
That makes no sense.
If there was a genuine risk of them being sent back if they don't accept less than ideal conditions- then there would be reason to be suspicious.
As things are though they're not going to lose anything immediately evident (good will etc being rather abstract) by wanting something once they're safe.
Also I have to wonder how often this kind of event happens vs the likely more usual event of refugees going where they're placed.
I can't advocate spending taxpayer money on people who go out of their way to show that they're not refugees. I don't feel like I can tell taxpayers to help people who spit in their faces while they're helping them.
Shouldn't this be more of a case-by-case assessment though? I can easily imagine an example like the one you quote - where the refugees have excessive expectations - or one when the host country is deliberately offering sub-standard accomodations to discourage refugees from coming to it (thus flouting its international obligations concerning refugees). It's more of a factual question of whether the accomodations meet proper standards than one of absolutes.
There is no such card.
Of course they're not all refugees.
There are lots of economic migrants mixed in amongst them (I read about 30% are Serbs, Kosovans and Albanians).
These people should be deported swiftly and I don't think many would argue with that.
But even if you come from the worst, most oppressive, war torn mess on the planet and your life is in imminent danger back home.... it doesnt mean that once you've reached safety you'll just go along with everything and settle for terrible conditions.
Some people will, scared they'll be deported.
Others... they're confident that won't happen. They want to make the best of their bad situation. They know/believe the mimimum safety net of not being sent home is established.
It's those cocky ones you want to get rid of.
It's not terrible conditions, it's just out in the countryside. It's good enough for millions of Swedes but not good enough for Mr. Fleeing-for-my-life? Hardly.
Identifying fake refugees is a GOOD thing FFS. Means we don't waste resources on them.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:20:43 AM
It's not terrible conditions, it's just out in the countryside. It's good enough for millions of Swedes but not good enough for Mr. Fleeing-for-my-life? Hardly.
Identifying fake refugees is a GOOD thing FFS.
And so the refugees who have been through hell and have heard stories of others being mistreated by authorities in Europe are just supposed to trust that being dropped off in the middle of nowhere is going to be ok? I suppose you are right. Why wouldn't they have instinctive trust. I am sure they would be completely unreasonable to assume there might be some Swedes who think they should get the bare minimum and be happy for it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:23:39 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:20:43 AM
It's not terrible conditions, it's just out in the countryside. It's good enough for millions of Swedes but not good enough for Mr. Fleeing-for-my-life? Hardly.
Identifying fake refugees is a GOOD thing FFS.
And so the refugees who have been through hell and have heard stories of others being mistreated by authorities in Europe are just supposed to trust that being dropped off in the middle of nowhere is going to be ok? I suppose you are right. Why wouldn't they have instinctive trust. I am sure they would be completely unreasonable to assume there might be some Swedes who think they should get the bare minimum and be happy for it.
They are not ENTITLED to receive help.
Us Europeans SHOULD help them because that is the right thing to do. But as they say about Internet posting, it is a privilege, not a right.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:23:39 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:20:43 AM
It's not terrible conditions, it's just out in the countryside. It's good enough for millions of Swedes but not good enough for Mr. Fleeing-for-my-life? Hardly.
Identifying fake refugees is a GOOD thing FFS.
And so the refugees who have been through hell and have heard stories of others being mistreated by authorities in Europe are just supposed to trust that being dropped off in the middle of nowhere is going to be ok? I suppose you are right. Why wouldn't they have instinctive trust. I am sure they would be completely unreasonable to assume there might be some Swedes who think they should get the bare minimum and be happy for it.
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
I don't get why people rush to the defense of the bus-sitters. They're a TINY minority among the people who come to Sweden, and ALL SIGNS point to them being in it for the money.
Quote from: Tamas on October 27, 2015, 11:26:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:23:39 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:20:43 AM
It's not terrible conditions, it's just out in the countryside. It's good enough for millions of Swedes but not good enough for Mr. Fleeing-for-my-life? Hardly.
Identifying fake refugees is a GOOD thing FFS.
And so the refugees who have been through hell and have heard stories of others being mistreated by authorities in Europe are just supposed to trust that being dropped off in the middle of nowhere is going to be ok? I suppose you are right. Why wouldn't they have instinctive trust. I am sure they would be completely unreasonable to assume there might be some Swedes who think they should get the bare minimum and be happy for it.
They are not ENTITLED to receive help.
Us Europeans SHOULD help them because that is the right thing to do. But as they say about Internet posting, it is a privilege, not a right.
:huh:
Europeans should help because it is right, but by God if those foreigners complain about being dropped off in the middle of nowhwere to hell with them.
I see.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
No they can't. A refugee is somebody who wants to not die and get shelter while the war back home stops. That is 100% covered by Swedish countryside. If somebody PROTESTS for a city residence be granted for him, he is not a refugee.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:28:44 AM
I don't get why people rush to the defense of the bus-sitters. They're a TINY minority among the people who come to Sweden, and ALL SIGNS point to them being in it for the money.
Seems to me all signs point to refugees who reasonably conclude that if they stay in the countryside they will be a lot less likely to build a new life in Sweden. I would have thought the anti refugee crowd would applaud that kind of initiative. ;)
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
Why do you ask? I'm sure many thousands of the refugees who come prefer cities to the countryside.
Quote from: Tamas on October 27, 2015, 11:30:57 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
No they can't. A refugee is somebody who wants to not die and get shelter while the war back home stops. That is 100% covered by Swedish countryside. If somebody PROTESTS for a city residence be granted for him, he is not a refugee.
Why are they mutually exclusive in your view?
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
Why do you ask? I'm sure many thousands of the refugees who come prefer cities to the countryside.
And for good reason. So why would you complain if they express such a preference. It leads to the kind of nonsensical reasoning that people who do voice such a preference cannot be a refugee.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
Why do you ask? I'm sure many thousands of the refugees who come prefer cities to the countryside.
It seems that it's being argued that people who prefer cities to the countryside are not genuine refugees.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:31:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:28:44 AM
I don't get why people rush to the defense of the bus-sitters. They're a TINY minority among the people who come to Sweden, and ALL SIGNS point to them being in it for the money.
Seems to me all signs point to refugees who reasonably conclude that if they stay in the countryside they will be a lot less likely to build a new life in Sweden. I would have thought the anti refugee crowd would applaud that kind of initiative. ;)
Good for you.
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:33:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
Why do you ask? I'm sure many thousands of the refugees who come prefer cities to the countryside.
It seems that it's being argued that people who prefer cities to the countryside are not genuine refugees.
Where? Post reference?
Nah, it's being argued that people who don't accept a place in the countryside are not genuine refugees. They can prefer cities all they want.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:33:01 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
Why do you ask? I'm sure many thousands of the refugees who come prefer cities to the countryside.
And for good reason. So why would you complain if they express such a preference. It leads to the kind of nonsensical reasoning that people who do voice such a preference cannot be a refugee.
Where did I do that? Post reference?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 27, 2015, 11:35:48 AM
Nah, it's being argued that people who don't accept a place in the countryside are not genuine refugees. They can prefer cities all they want.
Really?
QuoteIf somebody PROTESTS for a city residence be granted for him, he is not a refugee.
So I will ask you since you seem to understand the position. What makes someone who expresses a preference to be in a city rather than being located in the middle of nowhere less of a refugee?
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:35:11 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:33:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
Why do you ask? I'm sure many thousands of the refugees who come prefer cities to the countryside.
It seems that it's being argued that people who prefer cities to the countryside are not genuine refugees.
Where? Post reference?
There are a few but here is one where you put your position forcefully.
QuoteAlso, if you come to my home and DEMAND stuff other than I serve you you ARE getting thrown out
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:28:44 AM
I don't get why people rush to the defense of the bus-sitters. They're a TINY minority among the people who come to Sweden, and ALL SIGNS point to them being in it for the money.
Your post here is all I've heard of this particular case and so the only sign I've seen is that they're upset about being placed in the countryside and want to be in the city.
Whatever other evidence there may be for them being fake refugees that particular fact isn't evidence for or against
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:39:43 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:35:11 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:33:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
Why do you ask? I'm sure many thousands of the refugees who come prefer cities to the countryside.
It seems that it's being argued that people who prefer cities to the countryside are not genuine refugees.
Where? Post reference?
There are a few but here is one where you put your position forcefully.
QuoteAlso, if you come to my home and DEMAND stuff other than I serve you you ARE getting thrown out
Can you read? Honest question.
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 11:40:29 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:28:44 AM
I don't get why people rush to the defense of the bus-sitters. They're a TINY minority among the people who come to Sweden, and ALL SIGNS point to them being in it for the money.
Your post here is all I've heard of this particular case and so the only sign I've seen is that they're upset about being placed in the countryside and want to be in the city.
Whatever other evidence there may be for them being fake refugees that particular fact isn't evidence for or against
Then you're not reading clearly.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:44:13 AM
Can you read? Honest question.
Can you get over your refugee phobia? Honest question.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:37:53 AM
QuoteIf somebody PROTESTS for a city residence be granted for him, he is not a refugee.
So I will ask you since you seem to understand the position. What makes someone who expresses a preference to be in a city rather than being located in the middle of nowhere less of a refugee?
There's expressing a preference, and there's staging a sit-in on buses/trains. Anyway, I'm not claiming they are "fake refugees" or anything, just pointing out that they're doing a lot more than simply "preferring cities to the countryside".
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:46:00 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:44:13 AM
Can you read? Honest question.
Can you get over your refugee phobia? Honest question.
CC, I know that you're a famously thick poster. I get that. No need to drive the point home.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 27, 2015, 11:46:34 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:37:53 AM
QuoteIf somebody PROTESTS for a city residence be granted for him, he is not a refugee.
So I will ask you since you seem to understand the position. What makes someone who expresses a preference to be in a city rather than being located in the middle of nowhere less of a refugee?
There's expressing a preference, and there's staging a sit-in on buses/trains. Anyway, I'm not claiming they are "fake refugees" or anything, just pointing out that they're doing a lot more than simply "preferring cities to the countryside".
Ok, but the notion that forcefully making the point that they prefer to be in the city (remember our only source for this news is Brain's characterization of events) should allow Sweden to kick them out of the country seems odd. At the very least they should not lose the status of being a refugee because they do not agree with all the choices being made for them.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:48:44 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:46:00 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:44:13 AM
Can you read? Honest question.
Can you get over your refugee phobia? Honest question.
CC, I know that you're a famously thick poster. I get that. No need to drive the point home.
Ok then explain to this thick poster on what basis a refugee should be kicked out of your country because they do not agree with being dropped off in the middle of nowhere. Doesn't that at the very least imply that they should lose their status as a refugee. I realize that you are famously anti-immigrant/refugee. No need to drive the point home. But can you at least explain your extremist view?
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:51:56 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:48:44 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 11:46:00 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:44:13 AM
Can you read? Honest question.
Can you get over your refugee phobia? Honest question.
CC, I know that you're a famously thick poster. I get that. No need to drive the point home.
Ok then explain to this thick poster on what basis a refugee should be kicked out of your country because they do not agree with being dropped off in the middle of nowhere. Doesn't that at the very least imply that they should lose their status as a refugee. I realize that you are famously anti-immigrant/refugee. No need to drive the point home. But can you at least explain your extremist view?
Ignoring the very misleading wording of the question, no I don't think I can explain it to you. My impression is that you're not intelligent enough to understand. :)
DG, heeelp!!!
There is a middle ground here, and it is, as usual, the reasonable middle ground.
The people on the bus have every right to say "Hey, thanks for saving us and all, but we would prefer to get dropped somewhere other than the middle of nowhere".
And the people escorting said bus have the right to say "Hey, we appreciate your input, but the choices are right here, or we can drop you back at the border if you think you can do better somewhere else" and do so.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
There is a middle ground here, and it is, as usual, the reasonable middle ground.
The people on the bus have every right to say "Hey, thanks for saving us and all, but we would prefer to get dropped somewhere other than the middle of nowhere".
And the people escorting said bus have the right to say "Hey, we appreciate your input, but the choices are right here, or we can drop you back at the border if you think you can do better somewhere else" and do so.
Yes. And what happens when the refugees on the bus refuse to cooperate unless they are given what they want?
Quote from: Tamas on October 27, 2015, 12:07:45 PM
Yes. And what happens when the refugees on the bus refuse to cooperate unless they are given what they want?
A whole lot of hand-wringing on the internet, it seems.
Also, apparently, heavy media coverage and turning the incident into an argument for not helping refugees at all since they apparently don't deserve to be helped.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
There is a middle ground here, and it is, as usual, the reasonable middle ground.
The people on the bus have every right to say "Hey, thanks for saving us and all, but we would prefer to get dropped somewhere other than the middle of nowhere".
And the people escorting said bus have the right to say "Hey, we appreciate your input, but the choices are right here, or we can drop you back at the border if you think you can do better somewhere else" and do so.
I think I found the story Brain has been talking about. It seems the Swedish authorities did find a much more reasonable alternative than simply kicking them out. They sent someone to give the refugees more information. Like telling them this was just temporary because other more appropriate accommodation was in short supply. It appears that no one other than Brain took the position they should accept being in cabins in the middle of nowhere or get out.
http://breaking911.com/refugees-refuse-beds-at-swedish-holiday-park-because-it-was-too-rural/
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:26:29 PM
I think I found the story Brain has been talking about. It seems the Swedish authorities did find a much more reasonable alternative than simply kicking them out. They sent someone to give the refugees more information. Like telling them this was just temporary because other more appropriate accommodation was in short supply. It appears that no one other than Brain took the position they should accept being in cabins in the middle of nowhere or get out.
http://breaking911.com/refugees-refuse-beds-at-swedish-holiday-park-because-it-was-too-rural/
I'm pretty sure that plenty of other people took that position, not just the Brain. I came across it in a few different places.
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 12:41:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:26:29 PM
I think I found the story Brain has been talking about. It seems the Swedish authorities did find a much more reasonable alternative than simply kicking them out. They sent someone to give the refugees more information. Like telling them this was just temporary because other more appropriate accommodation was in short supply. It appears that no one other than Brain took the position they should accept being in cabins in the middle of nowhere or get out.
http://breaking911.com/refugees-refuse-beds-at-swedish-holiday-park-because-it-was-too-rural/
I'm pretty sure that plenty of other people took that position, not just the Brain. I came across it in a few different places.
Fair point. I should clarify that no one in any official position took that view. It is only being taken by internet extremists like Brain.
My shocking position is that we should give asylum to real refugees, not fake refugees. And I'm very comfortable making the call that people who commandeer other people's property because they don't get the address they hoped for are not actually running for their lives.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:26:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
There is a middle ground here, and it is, as usual, the reasonable middle ground.
The people on the bus have every right to say "Hey, thanks for saving us and all, but we would prefer to get dropped somewhere other than the middle of nowhere".
And the people escorting said bus have the right to say "Hey, we appreciate your input, but the choices are right here, or we can drop you back at the border if you think you can do better somewhere else" and do so.
I think I found the story Brain has been talking about. It seems the Swedish authorities did find a much more reasonable alternative than simply kicking them out. They sent someone to give the refugees more information. Like telling them this was just temporary because other more appropriate accommodation was in short supply. It appears that no one other than Brain took the position they should accept being in cabins in the middle of nowhere or get out.
http://breaking911.com/refugees-refuse-beds-at-swedish-holiday-park-because-it-was-too-rural/
Is it really that hard to understand why it is generating negative feelings, when your guest who requests entrance to your home on account of fleeing mortal danger, upon arrival starts giving you lists of demands so that he can strongarm out a good spot in your home to settle for good?
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:46:59 PM
My shocking position is that we should give asylum to real refugees, not fake refugees.
There you go again. Somehow a real refugee who voices a concern about being dropped off in the middle of nowhere becomes a non real refugee. A miraculous transformation indeed.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:46:59 PM
My shocking position is that we should give asylum to real refugees, not fake refugees.
There you go again. Somehow a real refugee who voices a concern about being dropped off in the middle of nowhere becomes a non real refugee. A miraculous transformation indeed.
My God you're stupid.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:56:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:46:59 PM
My shocking position is that we should give asylum to real refugees, not fake refugees.
There you go again. Somehow a real refugee who voices a concern about being dropped off in the middle of nowhere becomes a non real refugee. A miraculous transformation indeed.
My God you're stupid.
I am sorry that I don't understand your theory of transformation of refugees based on not wanting to be dropped off to stay in cabins in the middle of nowhere. I have asked you to explain this view but you have refused so I will have to suffer in ignorance.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:58:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:56:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:46:59 PM
My shocking position is that we should give asylum to real refugees, not fake refugees.
There you go again. Somehow a real refugee who voices a concern about being dropped off in the middle of nowhere becomes a non real refugee. A miraculous transformation indeed.
My God you're stupid.
I am sorry that I don't understand your theory of transformation of refugees based on not wanting to be dropped off to stay in cabins in the middle of nowhere. I have asked you to explain this view but you have refused so I will have to suffer in ignorance.
This isn't an act, right? You really are retarded, aren't you?
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:26:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
There is a middle ground here, and it is, as usual, the reasonable middle ground.
The people on the bus have every right to say "Hey, thanks for saving us and all, but we would prefer to get dropped somewhere other than the middle of nowhere".
And the people escorting said bus have the right to say "Hey, we appreciate your input, but the choices are right here, or we can drop you back at the border if you think you can do better somewhere else" and do so.
I think I found the story Brain has been talking about. It seems the Swedish authorities did find a much more reasonable alternative than simply kicking them out. They sent someone to give the refugees more information. Like telling them this was just temporary because other more appropriate accommodation was in short supply. It appears that no one other than Brain took the position they should accept being in cabins in the middle of nowhere or get out.
http://breaking911.com/refugees-refuse-beds-at-swedish-holiday-park-because-it-was-too-rural/
Well, that is not nearly as interesting.
I wonder how many "problems" in the world can be traced back to sensationalist journalism. Which is apparently the norm now - nobody cares about a story that is just informative anymore.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 01:00:13 PM
I wonder how many "problems" in the world can be traced back to sensationalist journalism. Which is apparently the norm now - nobody cares about a story that is just informative anymore.
Yeah, and then added to that the inflammatory characterizations that then get bandied about on the internet.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
There is a middle ground here, and it is, as usual, the reasonable middle ground.
The people on the bus have every right to say "Hey, thanks for saving us and all, but we would prefer to get dropped somewhere other than the middle of nowhere".
And the people escorting said bus have the right to say "Hey, we appreciate your input, but the choices are right here, or we can drop you back at the border if you think you can do better somewhere else" and do so.
That's not the middle ground.
The discussion is not about what should be done about these people, its whether a refugee moaning about where he is placed can possibly be a real refugee or not.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:59:38 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:58:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:56:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:46:59 PM
My shocking position is that we should give asylum to real refugees, not fake refugees.
There you go again. Somehow a real refugee who voices a concern about being dropped off in the middle of nowhere becomes a non real refugee. A miraculous transformation indeed.
My God you're stupid.
I am sorry that I don't understand your theory of transformation of refugees based on not wanting to be dropped off to stay in cabins in the middle of nowhere. I have asked you to explain this view but you have refused so I will have to suffer in ignorance.
This isn't an act, right? You really are retarded, aren't you?
retarded = not being an intolerant jackass?
To just look at the most visible group of people at the moment: Syrians. It's pretty clear that everybody who flees from a camp in Lebanon or Turkey instead of from Syria directly cannot be a refugee in the meaning of fearing for their lifes due to war or persecution. Instead they flee from the despair and desolation of these camps where they have no future. Should we still call those people refugees? I think that this is warranted as fleeing from utter hopelessness may not fulfill the treaty definition of a refugee, but I think the situation in those camps is bad enough to "flee" from it as it may not destroy your physical life, but certainly destroys your spirit and the future of your children. That said, it's just as fair to call them economic migrants - although economy is just one of their motivations - as they certainly seek a better life.
Now, let's look at other groups, say Eritreans, Iraqis and Afghanis. Is there a real hope that their countries will get better in the next years? Hardly. Do they have to fear for their lifes in their countries? Most likely less so than Syrians. Is it still fair to call them refugees? Probably as their countries are really shitty and it is pretty dangerous to life in them (at least in parts). Is the economic aspect more important as a motivation for them than for Syrians? Probably. So my take is that they are likely often still what we consider refugees, but it's certainly also fair to consider many of them economic migrants in addition.
Another group are those from the Western Balkans or Western Africa. Western Balkans are fairly peaceful, Western Africa is mostly okay. Although there is some discrimination against Roma in the Balkans and likely other ethnic groups in both regions. Do these people have to fear for their lifes? Most likely not. Are they still desperate because their countries are corrupt and fairly hopeless? Yes, of course. But does that make them refugees? I have a problem calling them that in the absence of violence or extreme oppression in their home countries. So they are from my perspective more on the economic migrants side of things.
But in the end the real motivation for all three groups is not that they fear for their lifes, but that their living conditions wherever they are right now are hopeless and they seek a chance for a better life. Why do we treat them differently and accept Syrians, but reject Albanians? It's the threat of violence in their home countries, not their personal fear for their life or their economic situation. That's despite the fact that they all come for the same reasons, namely hopelessness in their home countries and the hope for a better life in Europe. Is that fair on an individual level? I have my doubts. Why should a desperate Syrian be more of a "refugee" than a desperate Albanian? Are the economic chances in some mountain village in Albania or subsistence farming in West Africa really that different than those of a Syrian in a mountain village in Turkey?
In the end it is fairly arbitrary who we take in and who we don't take in and the criterion is not really that they directly flee persecution or war. Once we realize that, we can reduce the level of emotions when discussing who is a "refugee" and who isn't a lot. On an individual level all of these people come here because they seek a better future.
If you accept that this is their motivation, it's understandable why they express a preference for cities as that's most likely where they'll find a future. That said, they come here as a privilege as Tamas said and as guests they have to accept the rules of the host country. Free movement - at least here - is a citizens right, not a human right. If you seek a better future in another country, you have to accept their rules to a certain degree. Do they have to accept everything? Certainly not. But being assigned to accommodation in the countryside is perfectly acceptable and I do not understand a protest against that.
EDIT: Having read the English article on it that was linked above, it sounds more like fear of the unknown than protest by the people staying in the bus. That's totally understandable. I guess a few huts in Swedish forest can looking daunting when you come from some completely different place.
I think there is a clear distinction between people fleeing their homes because their own government is barrel bombing its citizens and economic migrants.
Personally, I don't think leaving a refugee camp turns you into an economic migrant and not a refugee.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 01:28:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:59:38 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:58:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:56:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:46:59 PM
My shocking position is that we should give asylum to real refugees, not fake refugees.
There you go again. Somehow a real refugee who voices a concern about being dropped off in the middle of nowhere becomes a non real refugee. A miraculous transformation indeed.
My God you're stupid.
I am sorry that I don't understand your theory of transformation of refugees based on not wanting to be dropped off to stay in cabins in the middle of nowhere. I have asked you to explain this view but you have refused so I will have to suffer in ignorance.
This isn't an act, right? You really are retarded, aren't you?
retarded = not being an intolerant jackass?
Retarded = not understanding simple things.
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 03:34:05 PM
Retarded = not understanding simple things.
I think it is easy to understand your simplistic position. :)
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 03:58:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 03:34:05 PM
Retarded = not understanding simple things.
I think it is easy to understand your simplistic position. :)
Good for you. :)
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
Er, it's more a case of they heard that Sweden gives good care, not bad care. They haven't said anything about being afraid of neglect, they have said that they don't like the countryside and prefer cities.
And people who prefer cities to the countryside cannot be refugees?
This sounds to me like the next iteration of the idiotic argument that "these people are not broke - they have iPhones!"
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
There is a middle ground here, and it is, as usual, the reasonable middle ground.
The people on the bus have every right to say "Hey, thanks for saving us and all, but we would prefer to get dropped somewhere other than the middle of nowhere".
And the people escorting said bus have the right to say "Hey, we appreciate your input, but the choices are right here, or we can drop you back at the border if you think you can do better somewhere else" and do so.
Yes, but as I said, surely there is a certain level of poor conditions, beyond which "not preferred neighbourhood" becomes "unacceptable living conditions" which give the refugees a right to actively protest, right?
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:46:59 PM
My shocking position is that we should give asylum to real refugees, not fake refugees.
There you go again. Somehow a real refugee who voices a concern about being dropped off in the middle of nowhere becomes a non real refugee. A miraculous transformation indeed.
Yes. A refugee is only a "real refugee" in Sweden if he is grateful to his Swedish masters for whatever scraps he is given. Essentially, if you have any dignity left, you are not a "real refugee" and should be kicked out of Sweden.
In life there are 50 shades of gray; in Languish only 2.
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 02:21:21 PM
Personally, I don't think leaving a refugee camp turns you into an economic migrant and not a refugee.
I agree. Many of the refugees are people from middle class backgrounds - they were doctors, lawyers, professionals back home. Being a refugee does not give them a right to a luxury but neither it obliges them to accept any kind of living conditions, no matter how undignified and horrid, only because bombs are no longer falling on their heads. It should give them the right to the accommodation that meets their basic needs, as per the Western civilised standard.
And yes, they have every right to be mistrustful or fidgety or whiny instead of being all grateful or happy, because they have fucking being through hell and we act like that when we get the wrong kind of latte at Starbucks and not when we see our entire life reduced to rubble.
I think it boils down to empathy. Some people don't have it.
QuoteTo just look at the most visible group of people at the moment: Syrians. It's pretty clear that everybody who flees from a camp in Lebanon or Turkey instead of from Syria directly cannot be a refugee in the meaning of fearing for their lifes due to war or persecution. Instead they flee from the despair and desolation of these camps where they have no future. Should we still call those people refugees?
Lebanon isn't quite Iraq but the war has definitely spilled over to there, it isn't a safe place to be.
Turkey isn't quite so bad...but you can't really blame them if they think it is heading that way.
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 02:21:21 PM
Personally, I don't think leaving a refugee camp turns you into an economic migrant and not a refugee.
I am not sure I would disagree, but I can at least understand the logic behind the argument.
The moral logic goes something like this:
1. There is no moral demand that Country A take in immigrants in general. The fact that Country B might have a less desirable economic/social/political system does not, in and of itself, create a moral imperative. If you are sailing in a luxury liner, you have no obligation to pick up people sailing in a tramp steamer just because your ship is a lot nicer than theirs.
2. There is a moral demand, however, to take in refugees. These are not people simply looking for a better life, these are people fleeing gross injustice and usually immediate danger to their lives. You can no more morally tell them no then you can morally refuse to pickup someone in in the water after their ship sank - even if that ship was a shitty ship they wanted to get off anyway.
3. However, if the immediate threat to their life or person has been removed, then there is no longer any moral imperative to act as if that threat still exists, and we are back to them just wanting things to be better. In this case, if you are sailing along in the luxury liner, and the tramp steamer sank, but the survivors were picked up by a kind of crappy cruise ship, you have no moral imperative to allow them to move to your ship - the threat that creates the moral demand for action is now gone.
They haven't been picked up by a crappy cruise ship though. They're floating around in dinghies. Not going to die right away... but their longer term odds aren't great.
Quote from: Martinus on October 27, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 02:21:21 PM
Personally, I don't think leaving a refugee camp turns you into an economic migrant and not a refugee.
I agree. Many of the refugees are people from middle class backgrounds - they were doctors, lawyers, professionals back home. Being a refugee does not give them a right to a luxury but neither it obliges them to accept any kind of living conditions, no matter how undignified and horrid, only because bombs are no longer falling on their heads. It should give them the right to the accommodation that meets their basic needs, as per the Western civilised standard.
I don't think I agree - I don't think any particular people have a *greater* "right" to accommodation that meets basic western civilixed standards than other people. I don't think it is fair, ethical, or moral to give preference based on proximity, or misfortune of some particular kind rather than another.
The logic should be consistently applied - if some refuge has a right to a Western Middle class life, then some non-refuge has that same right. And that is simply not possible.
I am in fact sympathetic to the idea that "refuge" is a very particular state, and not a description of a person. Once the danger that causes them to be a refuge is removed, then they are just another person who would love to live in Germany rather than somewhere not Germany, and I don't agree that in theory some other person should not be given an equal chance at that life.
Quote
And yes, they have every right to be mistrustful or fidgety or whiny instead of being all grateful or happy, because they have fucking being through hell and we act like that when we get the wrong kind of latte at Starbucks and not when we see our entire life reduced to rubble.
I think it boils down to empathy. Some people don't have it.
I think this is an *excellent* example of where empathy has no place in public policy.
Let's say that the kind of crappy cruise ship has taken on way more survivors from the tramp steamer than it can reasonably contain for an extended period of time, and that it is questionable if it will make it to shore without some sort of help.
Quote from: Martinus on October 27, 2015, 04:20:27 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 27, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 12:46:59 PM
My shocking position is that we should give asylum to real refugees, not fake refugees.
There you go again. Somehow a real refugee who voices a concern about being dropped off in the middle of nowhere becomes a non real refugee. A miraculous transformation indeed.
Yes. A refugee is only a "real refugee" in Sweden if he is grateful to his Swedish masters for whatever scraps he is given. Essentially, if you have any dignity left, you are not a "real refugee" and should be kicked out of Sweden.
A real refugee is a person who is fleeing for his life/similar. That status doesn't change based on how he acts. If I actually thought you guys were lawyers I'd be slightly alarmed.
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 04:43:39 PM
They haven't been picked up by a crappy cruise ship though. They're floating around in dinghies. Not going to die right away... but their longer term odds aren't great.
But the immediate threat is gone - if that immediate threat is NOT gone, then fine, they are still refuges. But even so, at SOME point that immediate threat ends, and then the obligation, the no two ways about it, clear moral imperative to save that person who is about to drown otherwise, is gone.
You might want to help them anyway, and bully for you if you do, but that becomes a different argument.
Quote from: frunk on October 27, 2015, 04:46:13 PM
Let's say that the kind of crappy cruise ship has taken on way more survivors from the tramp steamer than it can reasonably contain for an extended period of time, and that it is questionable if it will make it to shore without some sort of help.
Then if the cruise ships knows that and just drives right on by anyway, they are assholes.
But it isn't quite the same as the people being in actual, imminent danger. The cruise ship has some options on how to reasonably provide assistance.
I don't really like my definition though - surely a refugee doesn't stop being a refugee once the immediate danger is gone - it was still them feeing danger that was the proximate cause of their status to begin with...
But lets say some person is a refugee, and flees Syria to Germany. They settle in Germany, and live their for a year. After a while, they decide they don't like Germans, and they are going to head to the UK, where they speak a comprehensible language.
Well, clearly they are no longer a refugee, right? They cannot claim that them fleeing Syria a year ago means that the UK must take them in NOW, as if they were a refugee. So their status does change at some point.
The creation of a positive moral imperative is a serious thing, not to be taken lightly. It creates considerable responsibility, and what is more, it is a involuntary responsibility. Going back to our sailing example, the demand on ships to render aid to another ship in distress is a heavy burden - at some point we have to say that there is a difference between providing life saving aid, and just helping someone - and it is very much the case that those who want the help will absolutely claim that their status is such that said help is mandated.
I don't think this is nearly as open and shut from a moral standpoint as it is being painted.
QuoteBut lets say some person is a refugee, and flees Syria to Germany. They settle in Germany, and live their for a year. After a while, they decide they don't like Germans, and they are going to head to the UK, where they speak a comprehensible language.
Well, clearly they are no longer a refugee, right? They cannot claim that them fleeing Syria a year ago means that the UK must take them in NOW, as if they were a refugee. So their status does change at some point.
They're still a refugee to an extent. They should still be in Syria but circumstances beyond their control forced them to leave- they then failed to establish themselves in the first place they tried.
Fair play to such a person for at least giving Germany a shot.
Perhaps a status in between a refugee and a normal migrant should be in order here? "Displaced person" or somesuch.
QuoteBut the immediate threat is gone - if that immediate threat is NOT gone, then fine, they are still refuges. But even so, at SOME point that immediate threat ends, and then the obligation, the no two ways about it, clear moral imperative to save that person who is about to drown otherwise, is gone.
You might want to help them anyway, and bully for you if you do, but that becomes a different argument.
The immediate threat of drowning is gone but the threat of hypothermia, starving to death, etc... hasn't.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 04:45:35 PMI am in fact sympathetic to the idea that "refuge" is a very particular state, and not a description of a person. Once the danger that causes them to be a refuge is removed, then they are just another person who would love to live in Germany rather than somewhere not Germany, and I don't agree that in theory some other person should not be given an equal chance at that life.
It might be interesting to try to figure out where the transition point is, between being a "refugee" on one hand and "just another person who would love to live in Germany."
Personally, I don't think there's much of a difference with most of the Syrians fleeing currently, whatever their individual intended destinations are; but I do agree that there's a point where a person stops being a refugee. If, say, you stop over in Vancouver for a few years to finish your masters degree before continuing on to your ideal destination of Germany then yeah - you're not fleeing as a refugee, no doubt. But if you make landfall on Lesbos, I don't think you stop being a refugee even if you try to continue your journey to Germany or some other destination.
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 05:04:43 PM
Quote
You might want to help them anyway, and bully for you if you do, but that becomes a different argument.
The immediate threat of drowning is gone but the threat of hypothermia, starving to death, etc... hasn't.
I think you've lost me.
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 05:04:43 PM
Quote
You might want to help them anyway, and bully for you if you do, but that becomes a different argument.
The immediate threat of drowning is gone but the threat of hypothermia, starving to death, etc... hasn't.
I think you've lost me.
I think he's confusing the difference between a non-refugee and a refugee with the somewhat separate issue of conditions present in the refugee camps.
How big are the dinghies? A rough guesstimate will do.
If we're gonna keep driving this nautical shit into the ground, one of my worries is that we might pick up so many people from the crappy cruise ship because they'd rather be on our nice cruise ship, that when we sight more drowning people (which we will) we won't have room to take them (since we cannot be expected to toss the people we accepted earlier into the sea). So, because we wanted to be "nice" to the people on the crappy cruise ship we have to let people drown that we otherwise could have helped. I realize of course that this makes me a monster without empathy.
I have personally turned down requests for approaching harbor during a storm. "-I understand that the weather is awful and you want to approach the harbor. Do you want to declare an emergency? - No, it's not an emergency. -Then I have to turn down your request. Good luck and good evening!" When you're actually responsible (or feel some responsibility) for the use of resources and other considerations you have to focus and make the right decisions. Saying yes to everyone isn't being nice to everyone.
Quote from: dps on October 27, 2015, 05:42:53 PM
I think he's confusing the difference between a non-refugee and a refugee with the somewhat separate issue of conditions present in the refugee camps.
And there's the question of whether someone who's in a refugee camps are refugees if they move on from there, or just "economic migrants."
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 06:35:31 PM
If we're gonna keep driving this nautical shit into the ground, one of my worries is that we might pick up so many people from the crappy cruise ship because they'd rather be on our nice cruise ship, that when we sight more drowning people (which we will) we won't have room to take them (since we cannot be expected to toss the people we accepted earlier into the sea). So, because we wanted to be "nice" to the people on the crappy cruise ship we have to let people drown that we otherwise could have helped. I realize of course that this makes me a monster without empathy.
I have personally turned down requests for approaching harbor during a storm. "-I understand that the weather is awful and you want to approach the harbor. Do you want to declare an emergency? - No, it's not an emergency. -Then I have to turn down your request. Good luck and good evening!" When you're actually responsible (or feel some responsibility) for the use of resources and other considerations you have to focus and make the right decisions. Saying yes to everyone isn't being nice to everyone.
If that's the concern, then you should definitely close out all legal migration and work visas. After all, anyone going through those processes toof are taking up spots that could be used to help someone in need.
Quote from: dps on October 27, 2015, 05:42:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 27, 2015, 05:04:43 PM
Quote
You might want to help them anyway, and bully for you if you do, but that becomes a different argument.
The immediate threat of drowning is gone but the threat of hypothermia, starving to death, etc... hasn't.
I think you've lost me.
I think he's confusing the difference between a non-refugee and a refugee with the somewhat separate issue of conditions present in the refugee camps.
No, non refugees aren't part of this at all
Quote from: garbon on October 27, 2015, 08:13:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 06:35:31 PM
If we're gonna keep driving this nautical shit into the ground, one of my worries is that we might pick up so many people from the crappy cruise ship because they'd rather be on our nice cruise ship, that when we sight more drowning people (which we will) we won't have room to take them (since we cannot be expected to toss the people we accepted earlier into the sea). So, because we wanted to be "nice" to the people on the crappy cruise ship we have to let people drown that we otherwise could have helped. I realize of course that this makes me a monster without empathy.
I have personally turned down requests for approaching harbor during a storm. "-I understand that the weather is awful and you want to approach the harbor. Do you want to declare an emergency? - No, it's not an emergency. -Then I have to turn down your request. Good luck and good evening!" When you're actually responsible (or feel some responsibility) for the use of resources and other considerations you have to focus and make the right decisions. Saying yes to everyone isn't being nice to everyone.
If that's the concern, then you should definitely close out all legal migration and work visas. After all, anyone going through those processes toof are taking up spots that could be used to help someone in need.
:huh: Those help make the ship bigger, and also volume limits are not gonna be set for total immigration but for refugees.
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2015, 02:29:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 27, 2015, 08:13:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 06:35:31 PM
If we're gonna keep driving this nautical shit into the ground, one of my worries is that we might pick up so many people from the crappy cruise ship because they'd rather be on our nice cruise ship, that when we sight more drowning people (which we will) we won't have room to take them (since we cannot be expected to toss the people we accepted earlier into the sea). So, because we wanted to be "nice" to the people on the crappy cruise ship we have to let people drown that we otherwise could have helped. I realize of course that this makes me a monster without empathy.
I have personally turned down requests for approaching harbor during a storm. "-I understand that the weather is awful and you want to approach the harbor. Do you want to declare an emergency? - No, it's not an emergency. -Then I have to turn down your request. Good luck and good evening!" When you're actually responsible (or feel some responsibility) for the use of resources and other considerations you have to focus and make the right decisions. Saying yes to everyone isn't being nice to everyone.
If that's the concern, then you should definitely close out all legal migration and work visas. After all, anyone going through those processes toof are taking up spots that could be used to help someone in need.
:huh: Those help make the ship bigger, and also volume limits are not gonna be set for total immigration but for refugees.
How so? Only in the cases of creating new jobs (or are simply a very wealthy individual/high-income individual) could I see that they were adding. Otherwise, they are taking up a spot (both physically and in the sense of 'taking' a job) as well as using social services (at the very least state healthcare) that could otherwise go to a refugee.
Additionally, it seems like you are suggesting that refugees will never want to become part of the economy but will rather just suck on social services, indefinitely?
Quote from: garbon on October 28, 2015, 03:06:38 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2015, 02:29:04 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 27, 2015, 08:13:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 27, 2015, 06:35:31 PM
If we're gonna keep driving this nautical shit into the ground, one of my worries is that we might pick up so many people from the crappy cruise ship because they'd rather be on our nice cruise ship, that when we sight more drowning people (which we will) we won't have room to take them (since we cannot be expected to toss the people we accepted earlier into the sea). So, because we wanted to be "nice" to the people on the crappy cruise ship we have to let people drown that we otherwise could have helped. I realize of course that this makes me a monster without empathy.
I have personally turned down requests for approaching harbor during a storm. "-I understand that the weather is awful and you want to approach the harbor. Do you want to declare an emergency? - No, it's not an emergency. -Then I have to turn down your request. Good luck and good evening!" When you're actually responsible (or feel some responsibility) for the use of resources and other considerations you have to focus and make the right decisions. Saying yes to everyone isn't being nice to everyone.
If that's the concern, then you should definitely close out all legal migration and work visas. After all, anyone going through those processes toof are taking up spots that could be used to help someone in need.
:huh: Those help make the ship bigger, and also volume limits are not gonna be set for total immigration but for refugees.
How so? Only in the cases of creating new jobs (or are simply a very wealthy individual/high-income individual) could I see that they were adding. Otherwise, they are taking up a spot (both physically and in the sense of 'taking' a job) as well as using social services (at the very least state healthcare) that could otherwise go to a refugee.
I don't think people who come here to work are bad for the economy.
Quote
Additionally, it seems like you are suggesting that refugees will never want to become part of the economy but will rather just suck on social services, indefinitely?
:huh: Why wouldn't they want to become part of the economy?
What matters a bit more is that in Sweden it takes years and years for a typical refugee to get a job (50% of those of working age have a job 7 years after arrival). One of the many reasons why this is so is that in Sweden we have decided that low-paying jobs are somehow shameful and that people are better off without those jobs.
Meanwhile there is a pretty good chance Slovenia will decide on building their own border fence later today.
And Austria has already started building a limited one to "channel" the refugees/migrants/holy cows so they can deal with them.
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 05:06:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 04:45:35 PMI am in fact sympathetic to the idea that "refuge" is a very particular state, and not a description of a person. Once the danger that causes them to be a refuge is removed, then they are just another person who would love to live in Germany rather than somewhere not Germany, and I don't agree that in theory some other person should not be given an equal chance at that life.
It might be interesting to try to figure out where the transition point is, between being a "refugee" on one hand and "just another person who would love to live in Germany."
Personally, I don't think there's much of a difference with most of the Syrians fleeing currently, whatever their individual intended destinations are; but I do agree that there's a point where a person stops being a refugee. If, say, you stop over in Vancouver for a few years to finish your masters degree before continuing on to your ideal destination of Germany then yeah - you're not fleeing as a refugee, no doubt. But if you make landfall on Lesbos, I don't think you stop being a refugee even if you try to continue your journey to Germany or some other destination.
Before you make landfall in Lesbos, you have crossed the entirity of Turkey (for Syrians) or even further countries, e.g. for Afghans, Iraqis, Eritreans. There is most likely no immediate danger to life for these people in Turkey, so them travelling onwards is not motivated by fear for their life. They come to Europe because they hope for a better life. Is it really fair that we treat them differently than others hoping for a better life? The living conditions in those camps in Turkey are terrible of course, but are they worse than those of the poorest people in Africa? Probably not. So it is fairly arbitrary who we consider a "refugee" and who we consider an "economic migrant".
Quote from: Zanza on October 28, 2015, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 05:06:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 04:45:35 PMI am in fact sympathetic to the idea that "refuge" is a very particular state, and not a description of a person. Once the danger that causes them to be a refuge is removed, then they are just another person who would love to live in Germany rather than somewhere not Germany, and I don't agree that in theory some other person should not be given an equal chance at that life.
It might be interesting to try to figure out where the transition point is, between being a "refugee" on one hand and "just another person who would love to live in Germany."
Personally, I don't think there's much of a difference with most of the Syrians fleeing currently, whatever their individual intended destinations are; but I do agree that there's a point where a person stops being a refugee. If, say, you stop over in Vancouver for a few years to finish your masters degree before continuing on to your ideal destination of Germany then yeah - you're not fleeing as a refugee, no doubt. But if you make landfall on Lesbos, I don't think you stop being a refugee even if you try to continue your journey to Germany or some other destination.
Before you make landfall in Lesbos, you have crossed the entirity of Turkey (for Syrians) or even further countries, e.g. for Afghans, Iraqis, Eritreans. There is most likely no immediate danger to life for these people in Turkey, so them travelling onwards is not motivated by fear for their life. They come to Europe because they hope for a better life. Is it really fair that we treat them differently than others hoping for a better life? The living conditions in those camps in Turkey are terrible of course, but are they worse than those of the poorest people in Africa? Probably not. So it is fairly arbitrary who we consider a "refugee" and who we consider an "economic migrant".
Indeed - and this is where I think we as humans use empathy where it is not desirable.
Empathy sucks, quite honestly, when it comes to making policy decisions. Empathy is driven by emotion, and largely by our ability to put ourselves in the position of those we are empathizing with - and studies have shown that that is largely driven by emotional, rather than rational, criteria. And sometimes, that criteria is downright malicious - we empathize with people who are most like us, close to us, and visible to us.
People who are not like us, are far away from us, or not visible to us we do not emphasize with. So the poor kids on TV get our empathy, but the poor kids in the Sudan are ignored, while in reality it may very well be the case that the kids in Sudan need our help MUCH more.
An example of where empathy is a terrible thing in public policy:
In many states of the US, the victims of a crime (or their families) are allowed to speak in court before sentencing - to talk about the impact on the crime on their lives, the damage it has done, etc., etc.
This seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do.
But here is where empathy is terrible: Studies have shown that if the victim speaking is the same race of the judge, female, attractive, similar social class, etc., etc. it results in the judge passing down harsher sentences. If the victim speaking is black (presuming a white judge), not attractive, doesn't come across well, then judges tend to be less harsh.
This is empathy in action - it is likely that the judges in question are not even aware of what they are doing. But empathy, the ability to connect with and feel the emotions of others, is a distraction from good policy decisions, and has no place in rational decision making. Compassion is useful, empathy is not.
I'm not sure I understand the difference you are drawing between compassion and empathy, though that might be because you never developed that line of argument - but just tacked it on at the end. :P
Quote from: Zanza on October 28, 2015, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: Jacob on October 27, 2015, 05:06:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 27, 2015, 04:45:35 PMI am in fact sympathetic to the idea that "refuge" is a very particular state, and not a description of a person. Once the danger that causes them to be a refuge is removed, then they are just another person who would love to live in Germany rather than somewhere not Germany, and I don't agree that in theory some other person should not be given an equal chance at that life.
It might be interesting to try to figure out where the transition point is, between being a "refugee" on one hand and "just another person who would love to live in Germany."
Personally, I don't think there's much of a difference with most of the Syrians fleeing currently, whatever their individual intended destinations are; but I do agree that there's a point where a person stops being a refugee. If, say, you stop over in Vancouver for a few years to finish your masters degree before continuing on to your ideal destination of Germany then yeah - you're not fleeing as a refugee, no doubt. But if you make landfall on Lesbos, I don't think you stop being a refugee even if you try to continue your journey to Germany or some other destination.
Before you make landfall in Lesbos, you have crossed the entirity of Turkey (for Syrians) or even further countries, e.g. for Afghans, Iraqis, Eritreans. There is most likely no immediate danger to life for these people in Turkey, so them travelling onwards is not motivated by fear for their life. They come to Europe because they hope for a better life. Is it really fair that we treat them differently than others hoping for a better life? The living conditions in those camps in Turkey are terrible of course, but are they worse than those of the poorest people in Africa? Probably not. So it is fairly arbitrary who we consider a "refugee" and who we consider an "economic migrant".
I think you are missing the fundamental distinction of the reason the people first left their homes. Just because they cross into Turkey doesn't mean they didn't flee their home because they feared for their lives. And just because they first stepped into Turkey doesn't mean that isn't the end of their flight. Just as it makes no sense to burden the first EU country into which a refugee may land (and hence the suspension of the Dublin Accord) it makes no sense to assert that as soon as a refugee steps across their countries border they are no longer fleeing for their lives. That sort of policy would have the effect of putting the burden on only adjoining countries and frankly entirely removes the burden from two of the most wealthy countries in the world - the US and Canada.
You are completely right that the motivation why they left their homes is different. And that's also why we treat them different. My argument is that this is farily arbitrary because at the time they arrive on our shores, the motivation and the situation of a Syrian and an African is not that different anymore. Both look for a better life in a place they expect to have good economic opportunities.
QuoteThat sort of policy would have the effect of putting the burden on only adjoining countries and frankly entirely removes the burden from two of the most wealthy countries in the world - the US and Canada.
Doesn't that describe the reality though? The US and Canada also arbitrarily pick which refugees and how many may come to their shores. They may have different criteria, but they still decide not based on the motivation why people left their home but based on their current situation.
Somebody who originally left because they had to leave is more likely to go home someday than somebody who originally left because they wanted to come here.
The original factor that started their journey is important no matter what changes in the course of it
Quote from: garbon on October 28, 2015, 09:48:40 AM
I'm not sure I understand the difference you are drawing between compassion and empathy, though that might be because you never developed that line of argument - but just tacked it on at the end. :P
Compassion is, IMO, understanding, appreciating, and caring about the situation of others.
Empathy is actually sharing their emotional feelings - it is the human ability to actually feel others pain.
There is an important difference between the two. But empathy is fundamentally an emotional state, not a rational one.
It is like being an ER doctor or nurse - you need a lot of compassion, but empathy is actually bad. You cannot let your emotions get out of control, and you need to be able to turn off your empathy, because at times you will have to do things that are going to cause severe physical or emotional distress to others. You don't want to feel that pain, even if it seems kind of heartless.
Quote from: Zanza on October 28, 2015, 10:28:19 AM
You are completely right that the motivation why they left their homes is different. And that's also why we treat them different. My argument is that this is farily arbitrary because at the time they arrive on our shores, the motivation and the situation of a Syrian and an African is not that different anymore. Both look for a better life in a place they expect to have good economic opportunities.
QuoteThat sort of policy would have the effect of putting the burden on only adjoining countries and frankly entirely removes the burden from two of the most wealthy countries in the world - the US and Canada.
Doesn't that describe the reality though? The US and Canada also arbitrarily pick which refugees and how many may come to their shores. They may have different criteria, but they still decide not based on the motivation why people left their home but based on their current situation.
In relation to your first point, I think difference in how they are treated cannot be considered arbitrary since there is a very good non arbitrary reason for differentiating which always exists - ie the reason they left their homes in the first place. That difference in motivation will always be a non arbitrary factor for separating economic migrants from the rest.
In relation to your last point, not so, at least in the case of Canada, with the Syrian or Iraqi refugees. Canada only requires that the UN has certified them as bona fide refugees. The only controversy has been the number we will take which imo has been too low.
Is there any sound economic study on whether it is actually profitable in the long run to take in more illegal immigrants? My suspicion is that overall, the answer is yes.
The Austrian PM was always quick to yell all kinds of nasty stuff due to the Hungarian fence, but now they are building their own... But he said its not a fence its a "gate with wings" or something to that effect :D
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 10:54:42 AM
Is there any sound economic study on whether it is actually profitable in the long run to take in more illegal immigrants? My suspicion is that overall, the answer is yes.
Not sure about illegal immigrants. But there are all kinds of studies that suggest Canada's economy depends on a robust intake of legal immigrants and refugees. The kind that will stay and make their lives here. Not the people that fly in for passports. :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 10:50:46 AM
In relation to your last point, not so, at least in the case of Canada, with the Syrian or Iraqi refugees. Canada only requires that the UN has certified them as bona fide refugees. The only controversy has been the number we will take which imo has been too low.
I am frankly ashamed of my countries response.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 10:56:58 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 10:54:42 AM
Is there any sound economic study on whether it is actually profitable in the long run to take in more illegal immigrants? My suspicion is that overall, the answer is yes.
Not sure about illegal immigrants. But there are all kinds of studies that suggest Canada's economy depends on a robust intake of legal immigrants and refugees. The kind that will stay and make their lives here. Not the people that fly in for passports. :P
Well, we went through all the legal hurdles, passed every test and fulfilled all the requirements that the Canadian state imposed on us to get our passports. That means, the Canadian state must thought it was a good idea to take us in. So why blame us? Blame the guys who decided it was a good idea to give us the passports :P
In any case, it is too late to regret it now :menace:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 11:00:30 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 10:56:58 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 10:54:42 AM
Is there any sound economic study on whether it is actually profitable in the long run to take in more illegal immigrants? My suspicion is that overall, the answer is yes.
Not sure about illegal immigrants. But there are all kinds of studies that suggest Canada's economy depends on a robust intake of legal immigrants and refugees. The kind that will stay and make their lives here. Not the people that fly in for passports. :P
Well, we went through all the legal hurdles, passed every test and fulfilled all the requirements that the Canadian state imposed on us to get our passports. That means, the Canadian state must thought it was a good idea to take us in. So why blame us? Blame the guys who decided it was a good idea to give us the passports :P
In any case, it is too late to regret it now :menace:
Don't worry. I do blame the folks who thought that was a good idea. You just happen to be the poster child for why that policy was poorly thought out. You took advantage of a subsidized university education, benefits such has health care and then you left without contributing anything to repay what had been given to you. The system was terribly flawed and thankfully that type of immigration was stopped.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 11:00:30 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 10:56:58 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 10:54:42 AM
Is there any sound economic study on whether it is actually profitable in the long run to take in more illegal immigrants? My suspicion is that overall, the answer is yes.
Not sure about illegal immigrants. But there are all kinds of studies that suggest Canada's economy depends on a robust intake of legal immigrants and refugees. The kind that will stay and make their lives here. Not the people that fly in for passports. :P
Well, we went through all the legal hurdles, passed every test and fulfilled all the requirements that the Canadian state imposed on us to get our passports. That means, the Canadian state must thought it was a good idea to take us in. So why blame us? Blame the guys who decided it was a good idea to give us the passports :P
In any case, it is too late to regret it now :menace:
Don't worry. I do blame the folks who thought that was a good idea. You just happen to be the poster child for why that policy was poorly thought out. You took advantage of a subsidized university education, benefits such has health care and then you left without contributing anything to repay what had been given to you. The system was terribly flawed and thankfully that type of immigration was stopped.
:huh: But you encourage the EU to take in millions of migrants and make sure they get accomodation and care they are fully satisfied with?
Quote from: Tamas on October 28, 2015, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 11:00:30 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 10:56:58 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 10:54:42 AM
Is there any sound economic study on whether it is actually profitable in the long run to take in more illegal immigrants? My suspicion is that overall, the answer is yes.
Not sure about illegal immigrants. But there are all kinds of studies that suggest Canada's economy depends on a robust intake of legal immigrants and refugees. The kind that will stay and make their lives here. Not the people that fly in for passports. :P
Well, we went through all the legal hurdles, passed every test and fulfilled all the requirements that the Canadian state imposed on us to get our passports. That means, the Canadian state must thought it was a good idea to take us in. So why blame us? Blame the guys who decided it was a good idea to give us the passports :P
In any case, it is too late to regret it now :menace:
Don't worry. I do blame the folks who thought that was a good idea. You just happen to be the poster child for why that policy was poorly thought out. You took advantage of a subsidized university education, benefits such has health care and then you left without contributing anything to repay what had been given to you. The system was terribly flawed and thankfully that type of immigration was stopped.
:huh: But you encourage the EU to take in millions of migrants and make sure they get accomodation and care they are fully satisfied with?
First, there is a difference to objecting to being dropped off at a cabin in the middle of nowhere with no explanation and being "fully satisfied".
Second, Mono and his family were not refugees. The government of the day had a policy that actually gave them preference over other immigrant classes. It was a silly policy for the reasons I have explained.
I am not sure how you can possibly equate Mono's situation with that of a Syrian family in 2015.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
I am not sure how you can possibly equate Mono's situation with that of a Syrian family in 2015.
Well, maybe I am not racist? :P
You demand the EU gives the same thing to refugees that you believe was a waste to give to the Mono-era immigrants.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
Don't worry. I do blame the folks who thought that was a good idea. You just happen to be the poster child for why that policy was poorly thought out. You took advantage of a subsidized university education, benefits such has health care and then you left without contributing anything to repay what had been given to you. The system was terribly flawed and thankfully that type of immigration was stopped.
Without contributing anything? Every dollar we spent in Canada helped boost your GDP, including a house purchase. Our temporary presence no doubt helped the employment situation. I was keenly aware that I paid sales taxes on most stuff that I bought. My father paid Canadian taxes on his HK pension :P
I am not familiar with the changes to Canadian immigration laws after my departure, but my sense is that the HKers stopped going to Canada largely because everybody who wanted to go had already done it. Most people are also aware that Canada is an economic dead end for us.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
Second, Mono and his family were not refugees. The government of the day had a policy that actually gave them preference over other immigrant classes. It was a silly policy for the reasons I have explained.
Mono and his family were Commonwealth citizens being abandoned to the PRC. That policy makes perfect sense.
Quote from: Tamas on October 28, 2015, 11:14:45 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
I am not sure how you can possibly equate Mono's situation with that of a Syrian family in 2015.
Well, maybe I am not racist? :P
You demand the EU gives the same thing to refugees that you believe was a waste to give to the Mono-era immigrants.
If you don't see a distinction between an investor class migrant and a refugee I think we can narrow down the source of our disagreement on these issues ;)
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 11:16:25 AM
I am not familiar with the changes to Canadian immigration laws after my departure, but my sense is that the HKers stopped going to Canada largely because everybody who wanted to go had already done it. Most people are also aware that Canada is an economic dead end for us.
The investor class immigrant has been abolished for a few years now.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 12:08:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 28, 2015, 11:14:45 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
I am not sure how you can possibly equate Mono's situation with that of a Syrian family in 2015.
Well, maybe I am not racist? :P
You demand the EU gives the same thing to refugees that you believe was a waste to give to the Mono-era immigrants.
If you don't see a distinction between an investor class migrant and a refugee I think we can narrow down the source of our disagreement on these issues ;)
You declared that any kind of money spent on Commonwealth citizens was wasted because they could leave/have left. Yet you think cost should not be a consideration when looking after illegal immigrants coming from foreign countries. As long as we are talking about the EU, and not Canada, that is.
Quote from: Tamas on October 28, 2015, 12:10:31 PM
You declared that any kind of money spent on Commonwealth citizens was wasted because they could leave/have left. Yet you think cost should not be a consideration when looking after illegal immigrants coming from foreign countries. As long as we are talking about the EU, and not Canada, that is.
Really? Where did I say Commonwealth citizens? My point is that what has been spent on the investor class immigrants we gave priority to up until a few years ago has been entirely counterproductive because they largely did not stay in the country.
That has nothing to do with refugees for a large number of reasons, not the least of which is those refugees will probably stay in Canada. That fact that you continue to lump in refugees with investor class immigrants (the ultimate in economic migrants) is, at the very least, telling.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 12:27:12 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 28, 2015, 12:10:31 PM
You declared that any kind of money spent on Commonwealth citizens was wasted because they could leave/have left. Yet you think cost should not be a consideration when looking after illegal immigrants coming from foreign countries. As long as we are talking about the EU, and not Canada, that is.
Really? Where did I say Commonwealth citizens? My point is that what has been spent on the investor class immigrants we gave priority to up until a few years ago has been entirely counterproductive because they largely did not stay in the country.
That has nothing to do with refugees for a large number of reasons, not the least of which is those refugees will probably stay in Canada. That fact that you continue to lump in refugees with investor class immigrants (the ultimate in economic migrants) is, at the very least, telling.
So only rich people got help then? I did not kno wthat. I can understand your feelings then.
More to the point only rich people in the investor class category received priority treatment. I think we would have received a lot more benefit if we had focused on things like family reunification during those years. People that are actually going to stay here and create more stable family structure.
Quote from: Berkut on October 28, 2015, 10:57:31 AM
I am frankly ashamed of my countries response.
Yep <_<
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 10:50:46 AM
The only controversy has been the number we will take which imo has been too low.
I suspect any number less than all would be too low for you.
Another controversy has been what types of "refugees" to take, with people like you claiming that it's racist to make any distinction between persecuted minorities and Islamists (even though the UN defines a refugee as being from a persecuted group).
Quote from: Ancient Demon on October 28, 2015, 06:38:44 PM
Another controversy has been what types of "refugees" to take, with people like you claiming that it's racist to make any distinction between persecuted minorities and Islamists (even though the UN defines a refugee as being from a persecuted group).
Maybe in your mind. But the reality is that the Conservatives had temporarily halted the processing of the refugees in order to do an audit to ensure the UN was in fact identifying bona fide refugees. The audit results confirmed that the UN process was valid and so the Conservative government restarted accepting the refugees.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 12:09:21 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 11:16:25 AM
I am not familiar with the changes to Canadian immigration laws after my departure, but my sense is that the HKers stopped going to Canada largely because everybody who wanted to go had already done it. Most people are also aware that Canada is an economic dead end for us.
The investor class immigrant has been abolished for a few years now.
We didn't apply under the investment class. Lots of people I knew went to Canada under family reunion as well. Just because somebody went to Canada for family reunion purpose doesn't mean he will stay. Bottom line is it is much more financially beneficial to work in HK/China, so people won't stay in Canada.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 02:13:36 PM
More to the point only rich people in the investor class category received priority treatment. I think we would have received a lot more benefit if we had focused on things like family reunification during those years. People that are actually going to stay here and create more stable family structure.
Chinese generally go to Canada as an insurance. The purpose is almost always political. Doesn't matter if you call it investment or family reunion. They'll find a way if they are desperate, and they are. And then whether they stay or not will depend on if they value their career in this side of the pond more, or if they want to have an easy life in Canada.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 07:40:57 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 02:13:36 PM
More to the point only rich people in the investor class category received priority treatment. I think we would have received a lot more benefit if we had focused on things like family reunification during those years. People that are actually going to stay here and create more stable family structure.
Chinese generally go to Canada as an insurance. The purpose is almost always political. Doesn't matter if you call it investment or family reunion. They'll find a way if they are desperate, and they are. And then whether they stay or not will depend on if they value their career in this side of the pond more, or if they want to have an easy life in Canada.
I doesnt matter what I call it. It matters what policies the government has and what kind of immigrants those policies attract. The investor class immigrants were always going to be the passport of convenience types.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 07:43:00 PM
I doesnt matter what I call it. It matters what policies the government has and what kind of immigrants those policies attract. The investor class immigrants were always going to be the passport of convenience types.
But I imagine the passport types don't really take much from you guys either. They don't need welfare, that's not why they go to Canada. Maybe a university education or two for their kids. Maybe some healthcare.
A lot of the investment immigrants stay. The typical practice is that the father and grown sons go back to China/HK to work, while the wives, daughters, and grandparents stay.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 28, 2015, 07:50:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 07:43:00 PM
I doesnt matter what I call it. It matters what policies the government has and what kind of immigrants those policies attract. The investor class immigrants were always going to be the passport of convenience types.
But I imagine the passport types don't really take much from you guys either. They don't need welfare, that's not why they go to Canada. Maybe a university education or two for their kids. Maybe some healthcare.
A lot of the investment immigrants stay. The typical practice is that the father and grown sons go back to China/HK to work, while the wives, daughters, and grandparents stay.
Yeah, and then the wives and children dont pay any property tax because they apply for indigent status based on their Canadian earnings which are basically zero. So the kids are here getting a free education in every sense of the word since the property taxes that are supposed to be paying for the schools are not being paid. Not to mention the free health car and other benefits that are not being supported because no income is being declared in Canada. It has become a real problem in the Vancouver area. The Province is about to introduce legislative changes to address that issue so that families drawing income from abroad can no longer claim the property tax reduction. That was meant for retired folks so that they were not forced to move. Not people scamming the system. The Feds will also be introducing tax reform so that resident families are also taxes on their income abroad...
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 28, 2015, 07:56:22 PM
Yeah, and then the wives and children dont pay any property tax because they apply for indigent status based on their Canadian earnings which are basically zero. So the kids are here getting a free education in every sense of the word since the property taxes that are supposed to be paying for the schools are not being paid. Not to mention the free health car and other benefits that are not being supported because no income is being declared in Canada. It has become a real problem in the Vancouver area. The Province is about to introduce legislative changes to address that issue so that families drawing income from abroad can no longer claim the property tax reduction. That was meant for retired folks so that they were not forced to move. Not people scamming the system. The Feds will also be introducing tax reform so that resident families are also taxes on their income abroad...
Well, that's a separate issue. Tax them all you want, it is not going to affect me as I don't have family in Canada. But even if they don't pay property taxes, they are still paying sales taxes, spending money, engaging in economic activity of some sort.
I think it will be difficult for you guys to tax the wealthy mainland Chinese. Their millions are often literally in cash. They bring suitcases of cash to buy multi-million dollar properties. Good luck on taxing that sort of income.
Quote from: Tamas on October 28, 2015, 10:54:55 AM
The Austrian PM was always quick to yell all kinds of nasty stuff due to the Hungarian fence, but now they are building their own... But he said its not a fence its a "gate with wings" or something to that effect :D
Can't say I blame them after Merkel launched the Camp of the Saints against her own continent.
You can browse pictures taken on the Slovenian-Austrian border here:
http://index.hu/galeria/index/kulfold/2015/10/29/menekultek_az_osztrak_szloven_hataron/
An interesting problem BTW that Austria cannot just build a fence on its Slovenian border: its an internal Schengen border and can only reinstate border controls temporarily, proportionally, and after notyfing EU
Also, you can see the populist value of refugees: transit via Hungary has basically stopped, so Slovakia is in no "danger" of receiving any migrant wave. But they did send the police and the army to hold a coordinated training excersise on their border with Hungary :D
Austria which was very loud in attacking Hungary over this topic, is now puttng up barbed wire at different border crossings to control the flow of migrants :D
Controlling != stopping - Austrian government have been very clear that this is about managing the influx and properly processing the new arrivals and not about closing the borders and keeping refugees out. If Hungary had done that, I doubt people would have complained as loudly. Also, the Austrian government isn't loudly banging the drum about how they protect the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes which may also explain the lack of outrage. :P
Orban is the class fleabag though, so anything he does is bad :lol:
Quote from: Syt on November 04, 2015, 04:25:14 AM
Also, the Austrian government isn't loudly banging the drum about how they protect the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes which may also explain the lack of outrage. :P
Unlikely that banging on the drum about that would lead to outrage, expect with islamophiles and the hordes themselves ofcourse.
Quote from: Syt on November 04, 2015, 04:25:14 AM
Also, the Austrian government isn't loudly banging the drum about how they protect the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes which may also explain the lack of outrage. :P
Then why is the Austrian government trying to restrict and limit asylum with the Asyl auf Zeit? ;) There's a new bill right from the christian-democrats, even supported by the social-democrats (Grand Coalition), to be discussed in December. Can't play the FPÖ/Orban/Evil "right wing" diabolisation card now Syt. :D
Basically, asylum right restricted to three years and reexamined at the end of these three years.
Even the second level of asylum rights (subsidiary protection) will also be restricted with the prohibition of family regrouping during three years. If enforced, this will take a lot of business from smugglers. :P This applies to Afghans mostly.
Even Die Zeit noticed it
http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2015-11/fluechtlinge-oesterreich-asylrecht-unhcr-caritas (http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2015-11/fluechtlinge-oesterreich-asylrecht-unhcr-caritas)
Also the French Press thanks to AFP
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2015/11/03/97001-20151103FILWWW00230-vienne-veut-limiter-le-droit-d-asile.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2015/11/03/97001-20151103FILWWW00230-vienne-veut-limiter-le-droit-d-asile.php)
I think the new law is stupid and doesn't really change much from current law - its aim is mostly to assuage the ignorant public (and as a side effect screws over mostly the Afghans).
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 04, 2015, 06:30:24 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 04, 2015, 04:25:14 AM
Also, the Austrian government isn't loudly banging the drum about how they protect the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes which may also explain the lack of outrage. :P
Unlikely that banging on the drum about that would lead to outrage, expect with islamophiles and the hordes themselves ofcourse.
So if you don't think "protecting the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes" is good policy, you're an Islamophile?
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2015, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 04, 2015, 06:30:24 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 04, 2015, 04:25:14 AM
Also, the Austrian government isn't loudly banging the drum about how they protect the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes which may also explain the lack of outrage. :P
Unlikely that banging on the drum about that would lead to outrage, expect with islamophiles and the hordes themselves ofcourse.
So if you don't think "protecting the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes" is good policy, you're an Islamophile?
try again.
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2015, 03:57:44 PM
So if you don't think "protecting the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes" is good policy, you're an Islamophile?
It is Europe's fault for letting the Byzantine Empire fall.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 05, 2015, 03:11:31 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2015, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 04, 2015, 06:30:24 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 04, 2015, 04:25:14 AM
Also, the Austrian government isn't loudly banging the drum about how they protect the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes which may also explain the lack of outrage. :P
Unlikely that banging on the drum about that would lead to outrage, expect with islamophiles and the hordes themselves ofcourse.
So if you don't think "protecting the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes" is good policy, you're an Islamophile?
try again.
Well... it sounded like you were saying the only people who'd be outraged about banging the drum about "protecting the Christian lands... etc" were Islamophiles and the hordes of refugees. Did I misunderstand that?
If I didn't, then it would follow that only people who'd be outraged about such drum banging would be... well, Islamophiles or members of the horde of refugees.
If I misinterpreted you I'm happy to try again, but a hint on what I got wrong would be appreciated.
Quote from: Jacob on November 05, 2015, 12:25:36 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 05, 2015, 03:11:31 AM
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2015, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 04, 2015, 06:30:24 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 04, 2015, 04:25:14 AM
Also, the Austrian government isn't loudly banging the drum about how they protect the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes which may also explain the lack of outrage. :P
Unlikely that banging on the drum about that would lead to outrage, expect with islamophiles and the hordes themselves ofcourse.
So if you don't think "protecting the Christian lands of Europe from invading Muslim hordes" is good policy, you're an Islamophile?
try again.
Well... it sounded like you were saying the only people who'd be outraged about banging the drum about "protecting the Christian lands... etc" were Islamophiles and the hordes of refugees. Did I misunderstand that?
the second try is better. The outrage is key, not wether one finds it a good policy or not.
Does Europe needs more islam? of course not, no place in the universe needs more islam.
Neither, however, does Europe need a return to christian influence of a few decades ago.
European societies didn't break the power of the christian churches just to make allowances to a religion that's even worse.
So being outraged about what is clearly an over the top Orban-thingy (even though he's basically correct in saying we don't need more islam) -assuming one can be outraged about it- does put one in a certain camp.
Why did European societies break the power of the churches? To become more irrelevant? To better be occupied by the Soviets?
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2015, 02:02:36 PM
Why did European societies break the power of the churches? To become more irrelevant? To better be occupied by the Soviets?
Well because they were in bed with their autocratic, corrupt, and undemocratic governments and chose to support reactionary politics. Hence why it is very bad for churches to get involved in the state.
Quote from: Valmy on November 05, 2015, 02:15:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2015, 02:02:36 PM
Why did European societies break the power of the churches? To become more irrelevant? To better be occupied by the Soviets?
Well because they were in bed with their autocratic, corrupt, and undemocratic governments and chose to support reactionary politics. Hence why it is very bad for churches to get involved in the state.
In the 1970's?
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2015, 03:32:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 05, 2015, 02:15:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2015, 02:02:36 PM
Why did European societies break the power of the churches? To become more irrelevant? To better be occupied by the Soviets?
Well because they were in bed with their autocratic, corrupt, and undemocratic governments and chose to support reactionary politics. Hence why it is very bad for churches to get involved in the state.
In the 1970's?
What power did the churches have in the 1970s? But you have to admit when your institution relies on moral force that is a hard legacy to overcome.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 05, 2015, 01:14:00 PMSo being outraged about what is clearly an over the top Orban-thingy (even though he's basically correct in saying we don't need more islam) -assuming one can be outraged about it- does put one in a certain camp.
Yeah we disagree on that, then.
Quote from: Valmy on November 05, 2015, 03:37:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2015, 03:32:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 05, 2015, 02:15:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2015, 02:02:36 PM
Why did European societies break the power of the churches? To become more irrelevant? To better be occupied by the Soviets?
Well because they were in bed with their autocratic, corrupt, and undemocratic governments and chose to support reactionary politics. Hence why it is very bad for churches to get involved in the state.
In the 1970's?
What power did the churches have in the 1970s? But you have to admit when your institution relies on moral force that is a hard legacy to overcome.
No clue, but Ivan was talking about the last few decades. So I'm thinking within our lifetimes.
The only big example of a European nation breaking the power of the churches in our life times that I can think of is Ireland, which was done because of all the kiddy fiddling.
I guess what is more to the original point is that for a LONG time now European leaders don't have to reference scriptures to be able to govern the populace.
the values of the European societies are rooted in Christianity, but actual religiousness isn't an integral part anymore, in sharp contrast to the Muslim world, where for the untrained eyes it seems the only higher source of identity than religious is the local tribal ones.
Quote from: Tyr on November 06, 2015, 02:50:25 AM
The only big example of a European nation breaking the power of the churches in our life times that I can think of is Ireland, which was done because of all the kiddy fiddling.
Spain too. Exactly for the reasons Valmy mentioned.
QuoteGermany and Europe
The indispensable European
Angela Merkel faces her most serious political challenge yet. But Europe needs her more than ever
Nov 7th 2015
LOOK around Europe, and one leader stands above all the rest: Angela Merkel. In France François Hollande has given up the pretence that his country leads the continent (see Charlemagne). David Cameron, triumphantly re-elected, is turning Britain into little England. Matteo Renzi is preoccupied with Italy's comatose economy.
By contrast, in her ten years in office, Mrs Merkel has grown taller with every upheaval. In the debt crisis, she began as a ditherer but in the end held the euro zone together; over Ukraine, she corralled Europeans into imposing sanctions on Russia (its president, Vladimir Putin, thinks she is the only European leader worth talking to); and over migration she has boldly upheld European values, almost alone in her commitment to welcoming refugees.
It has become fashionable to see this as a progression from prudence and predominance to rashness and calamity. Critics assert that, with her welcoming attitude to asylum-seekers, Mrs Merkel has caused a flood that will both wreck Europe and, long before, also bring about her own political demise. Both arguments are wrong, as well as profoundly unfair. Mrs Merkel is more formidable than many assume (see article). And that is just as well: given the European Union's many challenges, she is more than ever the indispensable European.
Why Mutti matters
Mrs Merkel's predominance in part reflects the importance of Germany—the EU's largest economy and its mightiest exporter, with sound public finances and historically low unemployment. She is also the longest-serving leader in the EU.
Her personal qualities count for much, too. She has defended Germany's interests without losing sight of Europe's; she has risked German money to save the euro, while keeping sceptical Germans onside; and she has earned the respect of her fellow leaders even after bruising fights with them. Most impressively (and alone among centre-right leaders in Europe), she has done this without pandering to anti-EU and anti-immigrant populists. For all the EU's flaws, she does not treat it as a punchbag, but rather as a pillar of peace and prosperity.
Mrs Merkel is far from perfect. She is not given to great oratory or grand visions. She can be both a political chameleon who adopts left-wing policies to occupy the centre-ground, and a scorpion who quietly eliminates potential rivals. Her natural caution has given rise to a German neologism, merkeln ("to merkel", or put off big decisions). Her timidity in handling the euro's woes deepened the crisis unnecessarily; she has spurned the risk-sharing that the euro area needs to thrive.
Ironically it is boldness, not timidity, that has brought Mrs Merkel the greatest challenge of her time in office. Her staunch refusal to place an upper limit on the number of refugees that Germany can absorb has caused growing consternation at home and criticism abroad. As German municipalities protest, her political allies are denouncing her and eastern European countries are accusing her of "moral imperialism". With Willkommenskultur fading, there is even talk of her losing power.
The doubts are overblown. Critics are wrong to assume that Mrs Merkel is about to be toppled. Grumbling aside, she remains the dominant figure of her Christian Democratic Union (CDU). A recent poll found that 82% of CDU members approve of her leadership and 81% want her to run for a fourth term as chancellor at the election due in 2017. The electoral maths favours another CDU-led government. Mrs Merkel is unlikely to go unless she chooses to.
And the naysayers are wrong to suggest she has lost her way on migration. Quite the opposite. During the crisis the Lutheran pastor's daughter has found a forceful political and moral calling. Mrs Merkel did not cause the onrush of migrants, as her critics maintain. The migrants were coming anyway: she acted to avert a humanitarian disaster. Fences will not hold back the flow. Mrs Merkel can neither stop the wars that drive people out of their homes nor set the policies of the countries they pass through. Her critics offer no plausible alternative. Short of overturning international and European law, and watching refugees drown or die of exposure, EU countries must process the claims of asylum-seekers. The question is: will the process be orderly or chaotic?
Under Mrs Merkel, a four-part policy is taking shape: unapologetically absorb refugees at home; share the burden across Europe and beyond; strengthen controls and the processing of asylum-seekers at Europe's external borders; and negotiate with transit countries.
This approach is principled and, in the long run, it is the only one that can work. Of course it comes with drawbacks and risks. There are likely to be less-than-principled deals, particularly with Turkey: turning a blind eye to the erosion of civil liberties and the disturbing election victory of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's ruling Justice and Development (AK) party (see article), and other concessions, in the hope that he will agree to act as Europe's gatekeeper.
And there is no denying that the mass influx of refugees is aggravating many of Europe's other looming problems: it is fraying relations between Germany and eastern European countries just when solidarity is vital to contain Russia's aggression; it is adding to the burdens of Greece, already crushed by years of austerity and never far from leaving the euro; it is bringing Brexit from the EU closer, too, by giving voters more reasons to leave in Mr Cameron's promised in/out referendum; and it is stoking populism everywhere.
Stormy weather
This is Europe's biggest crisis in a generation. If integration once seemed inexorable, the pressing question now is how to stop the EU from fraying. Mrs Merkel did not cause this grim reality, but she is the continent's best hope for dealing with it. It is in Europe's best interests to help the chancellor rather than leave her to confront the crisis alone. After a decade in power, politicians usually retire, lose touch or are overthrown. But, without Mrs Merkel, it is hard to see Europe mastering its destructive forces.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2015, 02:02:36 PM
Why did European societies break the power of the churches? To become more irrelevant? To better be occupied by the Soviets?
It wasn't an active policy or decision to break their power. It's just as societies became freer, the power of the church waned. People basically voted with their feet and just didn't go to church anymore or listened to the opinions of church bigwigs.
Quote from: Zanza on November 07, 2015, 12:40:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2015, 02:02:36 PM
Why did European societies break the power of the churches? To become more irrelevant? To better be occupied by the Soviets?
It wasn't an active policy or decision to break their power. It's just as societies became freer, the power of the church waned. People basically voted with their feet and just didn't go to church anymore or listened to the opinions of church bigwigs.
So America never became freer?
Not sure what your question is. America has never had churches with a similar clout and similar level of government influence as Europe as you started out as a secular and free state in 1776. So no, you never became freer as you started out much freer.
Quote from: Zanza on November 07, 2015, 01:12:07 PM
Not sure what your question is. America has never had churches with a similar clout and similar level of government influence as Europe as you started out as a secular and free state in 1776. So no, you never became freer as you started out much freer.
Maybe the Puritans.
QuoteThe Latest: Another suspected arson fire in Sweden destroys building to house refugees
Published November 07, 2015Associated Press
COPENHAGEN, Denmark – The latest news as migrants fleeing war or seeking a better life make their way across Europe by the tens of thousands. All times local.
___
12:25 p.m.
Swedish authorities say an empty building intended to house refugees has been burned to the ground in southwestern Sweden, the latest suspected arson fire to hit asylum centers or buildings being renovated for refugees.
Police in Vastra Gotaland say they suspect Saturday's blaze that raged through a cluster of buildings and destroyed one completely to be arson.
Earlier, a center housing unaccompanied children in southern Sweden had its windows smashed and anti-foreigner slogans sprayed on it. One person was detained in connection with the vandalism.
In recent weeks, the Scandinavian country has seen over 20 arson attacks as an influx of refugees has surged. Sweden says migration authorities are overstretched and up to 190,000 asylum-seekers are expected to arrive this year.
So the best way to keep the potential terrorists out of your country is to become a terrorist yourself?
Norway and Sweden upped their game so the Danish government sees it necessary to tighten asylum rules again so as not to be outdone.
Amongst other things are "adapt capacity in asylum lodgings to lessen strain on municipal finances". I think this is another wording for allowing municipal governments to raise tent camps or similar instead of being forced to rent expensive private homes for immigrants.
Quote from: Liep on November 11, 2015, 07:24:25 AM
Norway and Sweden upped their game so the Danish government sees it necessary to tighten asylum rules again so as not to be outdone.
Amongst other things are "adapt capacity in asylum lodgings to lessen strain on municipal finances". I think this is another wording for allowing municipal governments to raise tent camps or similar instead of being forced to rent expensive private homes for immigrants.
cheaper facilities will obviously allow one to help more refugees/migrants. It's not like everyone has €20billion to burn like Germany.
Border control in effect in Sweden and it leaves Danish politicians in a rush to also put up a control. :sigh:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTjhR2rUsAAIDyP.jpg)
I don't know why it was out of question to have an EU-wide effort in manpower and money to facilitate the refugees in the countries they first entered.
I mean, I know: everyone else was happy it was not their problem on that given day, and couldn't care less what would happen the day after.
Welcome to the end of the Schengen treaty. Was nice while it lasted. Too bad it couldn't handle people exploiting it.
Assuming there was a general EU agreement not to help any refugees: What then can be done?
It would take a Berlin wall quality highly manned fence to guarantee nobody gets in. So some will get in...then what? You can hardly fly them back to Syria; not even talking morally here, the logistics, cost and politics are no laughing matter.
Throw them back into the country they crossed from? Doubt Serbia/whoever would like that. And then what happens? They just keep passing them back until they get to Syria? Sounds expensive and someone on the line is sure to say "no".
Quote from: Liep on November 11, 2015, 07:24:25 AM
Norway and Sweden upped their game so the Danish government sees it necessary to tighten asylum rules again so as not to be outdone.
Amongst other things are "adapt capacity in asylum lodgings to lessen strain on municipal finances". I think this is another wording for allowing municipal governments to raise tent camps or similar instead of being forced to rent expensive private homes for immigrants.
Aaaand I was right. They're building a tent camp for asylum seekers in Northern Jutland.
Quote from: Liep on November 13, 2015, 08:27:52 AM
Quote from: Liep on November 11, 2015, 07:24:25 AM
Norway and Sweden upped their game so the Danish government sees it necessary to tighten asylum rules again so as not to be outdone.
Amongst other things are "adapt capacity in asylum lodgings to lessen strain on municipal finances". I think this is another wording for allowing municipal governments to raise tent camps or similar instead of being forced to rent expensive private homes for immigrants.
Aaaand I was right. They're building a tent camp for asylum seekers in Northern Jutland.
Oh, that's got to be a bit draughty*. :(
* Intentional British understatement, wintering in a tent in northern Denmark with the wind off-the North Sea or Baltic has to be brutal.
Police on the Serb-Croat border:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.derstandard.at%2F2015%2F11%2F20%2Ffernrohr.jpg&hash=8d1f25a2ef7329831515c30df56a0a8a8d4f1674)
Seeing the picture I first thought this might be somewhere in (Northern) Germany. Name of the place: "Nijemci" :lol:
BTW I noticed there is some kind of political debate going on in Canada regarding accepting 25 000 Syrian refugees.
It is noble, but also kind of cute: that's like 5 days worth of intake for Europe, and it is a big deal over there.
Syria is your problem!
Quote from: Tamas on November 20, 2015, 04:45:39 AM
BTW I noticed there is some kind of political debate going on in Canada regarding accepting 25 000 Syrian refugees.
It is noble, but also kind of cute: that's like 5 days worth of intake for Europe, and it is a big deal over there.
Look at the reaction of some governors in the US over a mere 10,000. Not to mention they're whipping the easily distracted into a frenzy. "You know who else were refugees? The Boston bombers! You know who else was thoroughly vetted? The Ft. Hood shooter!"
Meanwhile in the Balkans
QuoteBalkan countries will only open their borders to migrants fleeing the Middle East and Afghanistan, the UN says.
Macedonia and Serbia made the move after Slovenia informed them it would not accept "economic migrants", country officials said.
Hundreds of people are now stranded on borders.
Right-wing European politicians called for border closures following indications that one of the Paris attackers posed as a migrant.
Serbia implemented the move late on Wednesday, according to a spokeswoman for the UN refugee agency UNHCR, Melita Sunjic.
"As of 6pm yesterday evening, Serbia started turning back (to Macedonia) all but Syrians, Iraqis and Afghans," she said.
A police spokesman in Slovenia confirmed the country would return "economic migrants" entering through Croatia, only allowing entry to those "from countries where there are armed battles".
Thousands of migrants are thought to be gathered at the Greek-Macedonia border
The restrictions come after a Syrian passport - yet to be verified - was found next to the body of one of the perpetrators involved in Friday's attacks in Paris.
The passport was reportedly registered in the Greek island of Leros, and later in Serbia and Croatia.
Around 2,000 are now waiting to cross the border from Greece north into Macedonia, according to AFP.
The restrictions are likely to affect migrants from Eritrea which, after Syria, has the second largest number of people looking to move to Europe. The UN estimates that around 4,000 people leave Eritrea every month.
The Eritrean government says those who leave are economic migrants - but many claim to be fleeing military service.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34867239 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34867239)
Leros, last victorious German offensive of WWII in late 1943 :nerd:
An FPÖ member of parliament said in a speech that the refugees coming to Europe "are in the vast majority not engineers, but the Lumpenproletariat." When criticized she said that "Lumpenproletariat" is not disparaging but a normal technical term.
Since the FPÖ is using a marxist term, the Left should be happy. :)
I've certainly read about doctors and engineers being amongst those coming.
In fact the migrants tend to be from the richer segments of society- they can afford to pay the traffickers.
Quote from: Tamas on November 20, 2015, 04:45:39 AM
BTW I noticed there is some kind of political debate going on in Canada regarding accepting 25 000 Syrian refugees.
It is noble, but also kind of cute: that's like 5 days worth of intake for Europe, and it is a big deal over there.
True, but remember we're volunteering to take them. They didn't just show up here one day.
Quote from: Barrister on November 20, 2015, 12:14:36 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 20, 2015, 04:45:39 AM
BTW I noticed there is some kind of political debate going on in Canada regarding accepting 25 000 Syrian refugees.
It is noble, but also kind of cute: that's like 5 days worth of intake for Europe, and it is a big deal over there.
True, but remember we're volunteering to take them. They didn't just show up here one day.
So if they had ocean-worthy boats or would somehow get on a plane without a visa, you would take more? I guess we can arrange that. :P
Quote from: Tyr on November 20, 2015, 11:39:17 AM
I've certainly read about doctors and engineers being amongst those coming.
In fact the migrants tend to be from the richer segments of society- they can afford to pay the traffickers.
If you still believe that, don't worry for the proles, traffickers also have low cost pricing.
QuoteMigrants' risk grows with Greece bad weather discounts
By Gavin Lee
"Go now and it's 850 dollars, and your kids can go for free, wait until tomorrow and it's double."
A Syrian nurse, Nancy Ahmed, recounts the conversation she had with Turkish smugglers in Izmir, as she chose to risk setting off on a rubber boat to Greece.
"They offered a discount because the seas were rough and it was raining. It's riskier, but we were told we'd be okay," she says.
As winter draws in conditions for those attempting the crossing get more treacherous
Nancy, her 11-year-old twin boys and her 70-year-old mother travelled along with 40 others in one of seven boats that set out early in the morning last Friday.
She says the dinghy nearly overturned three times, and survived "out of luck and the skill of the Iraqi driver".
The driver was another migrant, designated to steer by the smuggling gang. He had spent an hour being taught basic seacraft.
The boat was picked up by the Greek coastguard and taken to the island of Samos.
Another boat that set off an hour after Nancy's faced even worse conditions. Thunderstorms and rain in the Aegean Sea caused the boat to capsize - 13 people drowned.
In Samos last week, I met a grief-stricken Syrian man. He had been rescued by another migrant boat, but his wife and sons were missing, presumed drowned.
He told aid workers he had taken advantage of a "discount" being offered by smugglers.
The United Nations refugee agency, UNHCR, says it has received many migrant reports of smugglers offering to charge less for people willing to travel in turbulent conditions.
These people made it safely to Lesbos on Friday - despite a heavily listing boat
For those who arrive safely on Greek soil the relief can be overwhelming
The UNHCR spokesman in Greece, Ron Redmond, believes the discount has contributed to the sharp rise in drownings in recent days.
"In Lesbos at the moment we're hearing from migrants that they're being offered up to 50% discounts to travel when it's windy or raining."
He says a false sense of security is being given by smugglers, who are offering wooden boats to transport people across the Aegean, rather than rubber dinghies.
"This is the other thing - people may think the wooden boat is safer. But I've seen these boats, they look very old and unseaworthy, mechanically not in good condition.
"And they're packed with 300 to 400 people. If it sinks, the coastguard can't get to everybody. That's what we're now seeing."
Weather conditions are worsening for those on the Greek islands too
On Wednesday night, close to the Lesbos coast, an old tourist boat with three decks full of 400 migrants capsized. Greek patrols rescued 274 people, 16 died. The others remain unfound.
A sense of the conditions migrants are travelling in was confirmed when it later emerged that one of the boat's decks had collapsed.
The figures speak for themselves.
So far this year, around 202 people have died in Greek waters, with many more missing, presumed drowned. Half of those deaths happened this October.
As the weather worsens, aid agencies are calling on EU leaders to once again provide more search and rescue boats, to help support the Greek coastguard, now clearly overwhelmed.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34682034 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34682034)
I just read an article about a guy from Denmark who travelled to Lesbos to bury his family who drowned crossing from Turkey. He meets a different kind of pain than sorrow when he goes up against Greek bureaucracy trying to get them to expand the graveyard because it's already full to the brim with other dead refugees.
Quote from: Liep on November 22, 2015, 05:07:07 AM
I just read an article about a guy from Denmark who travelled to Lesbos to bury his family who drowned crossing from Turkey. He meets a different kind of pain than sorrow when he goes up against Greek bureaucracy trying to get them to expand the graveyard because it's already full to the brim with other dead refugees.
:(
I saw a tv interview with a grave digger on the island, not sure if it the same man, but his graveyard was also filled because of the refugee deaths; seemed a compassionate man as he knew where everyone was buried and remembered as much of their 'stories' as likely available.
Quote from: Tamas on November 20, 2015, 04:45:39 AM
BTW I noticed there is some kind of political debate going on in Canada regarding accepting 25 000 Syrian refugees.
It is noble, but also kind of cute: that's like 5 days worth of intake for Europe, and it is a big deal over there.
Europe: 740 000 000 souls
Canada: 30 000 000 souls.
That makes a huge difference on how many we can integrate. But first, we have to get them over here. In one month. Then house them in badly built refugee camps.
Quote from: Tyr on November 20, 2015, 11:39:17 AM
I've certainly read about doctors and engineers being amongst those coming.
In fact the migrants tend to be from the richer segments of society- they can afford to pay the traffickers.
Yeah, those are the ones the US and Canada plan to take. :D
There's an arms race in Scandinavia with regards to tightening asylum rules. Prediction, all countries will have border controls before next week and Germany will be left with all the angry refugees/migrants.
Quote from: Liep on November 24, 2015, 03:21:38 PM
There's an arms race in Scandinavia with regards to tightening asylum rules. Prediction, all countries will have border controls before next week and Germany will be left with all the angry refugees/migrants.
serves them right for shafting europe with the Swarm.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 24, 2015, 03:34:12 PM
Quote from: Liep on November 24, 2015, 03:21:38 PM
There's an arms race in Scandinavia with regards to tightening asylum rules. Prediction, all countries will have border controls before next week and Germany will be left with all the angry refugees/migrants.
serves them right for shafting europe with the Swarm.
The swarm? Charming and telling.
Does horde work better?
Quote from: Zanza on November 24, 2015, 10:52:23 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 24, 2015, 03:34:12 PM
Quote from: Liep on November 24, 2015, 03:21:38 PM
There's an arms race in Scandinavia with regards to tightening asylum rules. Prediction, all countries will have border controls before next week and Germany will be left with all the angry refugees/migrants.
serves them right for shafting europe with the Swarm.
The swarm? Charming and telling.
As if the previous decade wasn't an indicator. Separatists seem to share certain traits across the world.
http://news.yahoo.com/french-pm-says-europe-cant-more-refugees-sueddeutsche-080749431.html
QuoteFrench PM says Europe can't take in more refugees: Sueddeutsche Zeitung
BERLIN (Reuters) - European countries are stretched to their limits in the refugee crisis and cannot take in any more new arrivals, French Prime Minister Manuel Valls was quoted as saying in a German newspaper on Wednesday.
Europe is grappling with its worst refugee crisis since World War Two. Germany so far has taken in the bulk of some 1 million people expected to arrive this year.
"We cannot accommodate any more refugees in Europe, that's not possible," Valls told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung, adding that tighter control of Europe's external borders would determine the fate of the European Union.
"If we don't do that, the people will say: Enough of Europe," Valls warned.
The comments were published only hours before German Chancellor Angela Merkel was scheduled to meet French President Francois Hollande in Paris.
Merkel was initially celebrated at home and abroad for her welcoming approach to the refugees, many of whom are fleeing conflict in the Middle East. But as the flow has continued the chancellor has come under increasing criticism.
Some conservatives say Merkel's decision to open up Germany's borders to Syrian refugees in September has spurred more migrants to come.
The refugee debate has become more politically charged after the deadly attacks in Paris that stoked fears Islamic State militants could exploit the migrant crisis to send extremists to Europe.
Valls avoided criticizing Merkel directly for having suspended European asylum rules to allow in Syrian refugees stranded in Hungary. "Germany has made an honorable choice there," he said.
But he signaled that Paris was taken by surprise by Merkel's decision: "It was not France that said: Come!"
French Economy Minister Emmanuel Macron and his German counterpart, Sigmar Gabriel, have proposed setting up a 10 billion euro ($10.7 billion) fund to pay for tighter security, external border controls and caring for refugees.
The United Nations on Tuesday condemned new restrictions on refugees that have left around 1,000 migrants stuck at the main border crossing into Macedonia from Greece.
The most annoying thing, as they start to realise that free for all entrance extravaganza was a bad idea, that now they make the far right everywhere look like the most competent, since they were saying this quite obvious thing from the start
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2015, 04:27:38 AM
The most annoying thing, as they start to realise that free for all entrance extravaganza was a bad idea, that now they make the far right everywhere look like the most competent, since they were saying this quite obvious thing from the start
This is the thing that annoys me, the left in all its humanism forgot to actually think about this 2-3 decades ago. Now we're left with a debate that is entirely owned by the far right and the left is completely sidelined because of a fear of appearing far right by saying something even slightly critical of immigration.
The population then has no alternative than to turn right.
Icing on the cake is when the right goes left on immigration matters, like Merkel did.
Even in France, before November 13 speaking of borders checks would get reductio ad hitlerem, despite this being a position defended not only by the far right.
the left has been given ample opportunities to mend their faulty ways over the past half of a century. Time to undo some of the stupidity of '68. Preferably before the 'progressive intellectuals' act out "Soumission"
There was a clip with German news reports from 20 years ago, when Germany first tightened its rules for asylum seekers (critics at the time said it completely hollows out the right to asylum; one of the rules introduced was the "safe countries of origin").
It's funny how the news sound so much alike - "unprecedented situation and amount of refugees", Horst Seehofer (then federal minister for health, now King of Bavaria) calling for payment cuts for refugees and reducing the influx, population reacting with resentment and support. Only that the sources for refugees at the time were mostly Ex-Yugoslavia and Rwanda.
Quote from: Syt on November 25, 2015, 06:17:45 AM
Horst Seehofer (then federal minister for health, now King of Bavaria)
Wow he has had quite a career.
Does the king get to live in Neushwanstein?
So another one of the new restrictions on asylum is apparently confiscation of valuables from the refugees. The minister of justice says: "It's only fair to take it away if they come here with suitcases full of diamonds."
So again, one might ask, what is the limit on the valuables the refugees are allowed to keep? None, say the right wingers. Undefined, says minister of justice.
:hmm:
Quote from: Liep on November 30, 2015, 08:32:33 AM
So another one of the new restrictions on asylum is apparently confiscation of valuables from the refugees. The minister of justice says: "It's only fair to take it away if they come here with suitcases full of diamonds."
So again, one might ask, what is the limit on the valuables the refugees are allowed to keep? None, say the right wingers. Undefined, says minister of justice.
:hmm:
It's what the Czechs did before the UN complained loudly. Czech authorities would confiscate all cash to pay for the stay (they charged refugees 10 EUR per day) and also take away all phones. Then they housed the refugees in prisons, behind barbed wire and armed guards.
Sounds great then as the current government parties have a long tradition of ignoring the UN.
No comments on the biggest scandal of the EU immigration summit yet? This is what Angela Merkel and Beata Szydlo (the new Polish prime minister) wore:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbi.gazeta.pl%2Fim%2Fa4%2F60%2F12%2Fz19268260Q%2CBeata-Szydlo-z-Angela-Merkel-na-szczycie-UE-Turcja.jpg&hash=bd3c4b0f039ec255078762a57e32519b1ea0d6b4)
Or as one of the memes describes it "Black Friday at Lidl*"
*For Americans, Lidl is a low budget discount chain popular in Germany and Poland.
Tabloid refugee story du jour:
"Refugees in Hammer* complains about the weather". Integration complete! :w00t:
*Small town in the middle of nowhere consisting of about 150 people.
The town council in Kellinghusen (where I grew up) have decided that the town needs way more WiFi hotspots. They've realized it's cheap, will probably be financed by local businesses and will be a boon for tourists.
In a town of ca. 8,000 there's over 1,000 refugees in the old army base, and the only free WiFi hotspot is in the center at the town hall. :lol:
Quote from: Syt on November 30, 2015, 11:03:43 AM
The town council in Kellinghusen (where I grew up) have decided that the town needs way more WiFi hotspots. They've realized it's cheap, will probably be financed by local businesses and will be a boon for tourists.
In a town of ca. 8,000 there's over 1,000 refugees in the old army base, and the only free WiFi hotspot is in the center at the town hall. :lol:
Coincidence! :angry:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/30/turkey-arrests-1300-asylum-seekers-after-2bn-eu-border-control-deal
QuoteTurkey arrests 1,300 asylum seekers after £2bn EU border control deal
Three people smugglers held along with hundreds of Syrians, Afghans, Iranians and Iraqis after country vows to curb flow of refugees in return for aid
Turkey has stepped up a crackdown on people smuggling, arresting 1,300 asylum seekers in a single operation just hours after the country promised to curb the flow of refugees to Greece in exchange for financial aid from the EU.
Hundreds of Syrians, Afghans, Iranians and Iraqis and three people smugglers were seized on Monday in the countryside near Ayvacık, a Turkish town north of the Greek island of Lesbos, Reuters and the Associated Press reported. According to the UN, about 425,000 people have arrived in Lesbos in smuggling boats this year, while a further 300,000 have reached other Greek islands from Turkey – leading the EU to criticise its eastern neighbour for not doing enough to police its own border.
The Ayvacık sweep is thought to be the largest single mass arrest of refugees in recent months, and follows an agreement on Sunday that saw the EU pledge to give Turkey €3bn (£2bn) in exchange for increased border patrols.
Turkey says it has detained nearly 80,000 would-be migrants since 2014 as well as over 200 major smugglers. But rarely is an operation as big and organised as Monday's sting. Recent Guardian reporting highlighted how police turn a blind eye to the smuggling economy in Izmir, where smugglers do business a few metres from two police facilities. On the beaches near the town of Çeşme, where many leave for the Greek island of Chios, the departure points are unpoliced and accessible to all.
But the arrest of more than a thousand people in one day suggests Turkey is increasing efforts to secure its borders in response to the EU deal. Rights groups warn this development will endanger refugee lives, since those who still want to reach Europe will be forced to try riskier methods.
Melanie Ward, associate director of policy and advocacy for International Rescue Committee UK, said the agreement "is deeply concerning because it is primarily designed to obstruct the movement of those seeking refuge in the EU, which runs contrary to the EU's basic founding principles. This deal will only make it more expensive and dangerous for those determined to continue their journey to Europe".
Smugglers have also warned that it is impossible to completely curb such a large flow of refugees. Speaking to the Guardian before the crackdown, one smuggler in Izmir said: "It's the Syrians who determine whether they'll go or not. The people risking the journey from Damascus, they're the ones who are making this happen. Anyone who wants to go will go."
Turkey is home to more Syrian refugees than any other country, with estimates suggesting it houses between 1.8 million and 2.2 million. Most of them do not have the right to work legally – a factor cited by many refugees as a reason for leaving for Europe. One Syrian who plans to leave Turkey in the coming days said that the status quo means many Syrians work illegally to support their families – and end up being exploited by their employers.
"I worked for three months and never got paid once," said the Syrian, who asked not to be named. "Because of this I want to leave – so that I can live in dignity."
Quote from: Syt on November 30, 2015, 03:15:01 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/30/turkey-arrests-1300-asylum-seekers-after-2bn-eu-border-control-deal
Quote
“I worked for three months and never got paid once,” said the Syrian, who asked not to be named. “”
Hmm. This guy don't catch on quick, does he?
So, the deal is that we will give lots of cash to a corrupt anti-democratic regime on a brink of a war with Russia so they can crack down harder on refugees and we won't have to look at them?
Wow, good going Europe.
Of course from around 10% of that money they could organise the whole crisis at EU borders, but that would involve helping the refugees while doing to them things they don't want you to do (namely preventing them from reaching whatever promised land they are aiming for). That would be nasty and controversial, so they just pay tribute to the Ottoman Empire to do it for them :D
And I am pretty sure the EU public will be fine with that. Lovely :D
Quote from: Martinus on December 01, 2015, 01:29:50 AM
So, the deal is that we will give lots of cash to a corrupt anti-democratic regime on a brink of a war with Russia so they can crack down harder on refugees and we won't have to look at them?
Wow, good going Europe.
Well, I must admit that the "on a brink of war with Russia" is new but the rest helped a lot Kadhafi, at least for a while. :hmm:
Good news! We've got 2 fewer ghettos in Denmark in 2015, immigration crisis is over.
A ghetto is defined thusly:
more than 40% without job/ongoing education in the 18-64 age group
more than 50% immigrants or descended thereof (non-western)
more than 2.70% convicted of violence/drug crime
more than 50% without more than a basic education in the 30-59 age group
average income is less than 55% of the average income of the city
You need at least 3 to be a ghetto.
Numerically worst is Gellerupparken with the stats 51.9 - 80.6 - 4.43 - 58.4 - 62.4
Quote from: Liep on December 01, 2015, 02:26:11 PM
Good news! We've got 2 fewer ghettos in Denmark in 2015, immigration crisis is over.
A ghetto is defined thusly:
more than 40% without job/ongoing education in the 18-64 age group
more than 50% immigrants or descended thereof (non-western)
more than 2.70% convicted of violence/drug crime
more than 50% without more than a basic education in the 30-59 age group
average income is less than 55% of the average income of the city
You need at least 3 to be a ghetto.
Numerically worst is Gellerupparken with the stats 51.9 - 80.6 - 4.43 - 58.4 - 62.4
they changed the definitions didn't they?
Quote from: dps on November 30, 2015, 09:34:07 PM
Hmm. This guy don't catch on quick, does he?
Perhaps he was desperate, and thus relied more on hope than was prudent?
http://www.thelocal.at/20151203/halal-storm-triggers-meat-sale-backtrack
QuoteHalal storm triggers meat sale backtrack
A test sale of Halal meat in the Spar supermarket chain caused a storm of Islamophobia, leading to cancelation of the pilot after only two weeks.
Sharia law 'exists in Austria and Germany' (26 Nov 15)
'Muslims feel oppressed' after Paris attacks (20 Nov 15)
With the recent significant increase in Muslim refugees arriving in the central European country, the Austrian operation of the Dutch Spar supermarket chain decided to offer meat prepared according to Islamic guidelines, following the Halal certification.
Unfortunately, Spar's customers in Vienna showed they were not ready for such a cultural change, and resorted to verbally harassing Spar staff in stores, as well as posting anti-Muslim comments in online forums.
According to Spar spokeswoman Nicole Berkman, protection of its employees' safety was of great importance, citing security concerns for ending the trial.
Additionally, animal rights activists argued that the Halal method of ritual animal slaughter -- which shares many aspects of Kosher meat production -- was unnecessarily cruel, with animals suffering more when butchers follow the Islamic tradition.
"We will not put up with Muslim rubbish in our country. This is our culture and it must not become subordinated to a barbaric ideological minority," one user wrote on Spar's Facebook page.
"As a local retailer for all population groups in Austria, we are saddened and shocked about the tone of the discussions, but we are drawing the consequences," Spar said in an online message.
The term Halal translates as "lawful" or "permitted" in Arabic. It is usually only applied to meat that is slaughtered in methods that comply with Islamic law.
The animal must be healthy before it is killed and all blood must be drained from the body - to this end the jugular vein of the animal is cut with a sharp knife. A prayer must be said as the animal is killed.
Within Islam there is some debate about how strictly these rules have to be adhered to. One of these is whether the animal is stunned prior to slaughter. Animal welfare groups such as the RSPCA believe that not doing so causes unnecessary suffering.
Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway and Iceland all ban slaughter without stunning but the UK has refused pressure to follow suit. Austrian meat is generally stunned before being slaughtered.
New Zealand is one of the largest exporters of Halal meat, with an estimated 70 percent of lamb from that country receiving Halal certification.
Spar has confirmed that all animals were stunned before being killed. They had verified with the Muslim community that this would be ok with the rules for halal meat.
What's confusing me a lot more, though, is that a number of major supermarket chains here have had halal products in their shelves for many years now, and nobody has complained so far.
Spar is now in the middle of the next shitstorm for being intimidated by online racists.
Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2015, 03:57:31 PM
http://www.thelocal.at/20151203/halal-storm-triggers-meat-sale-backtrack
QuoteAdditionally, animal rights activists argued that the Halal method of ritual animal slaughter -- which shares many aspects of Kosher meat production -- was unnecessarily cruel, with animals suffering more when butchers follow the Islamic tradition.
Just out of curiosity, does Spar sell Kosher meats?
Isn't that haram?
Quote from: Savonarola on December 03, 2015, 04:17:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2015, 03:57:31 PM
http://www.thelocal.at/20151203/halal-storm-triggers-meat-sale-backtrack
QuoteAdditionally, animal rights activists argued that the Halal method of ritual animal slaughter -- which shares many aspects of Kosher meat production -- was unnecessarily cruel, with animals suffering more when butchers follow the Islamic tradition.
Just out of curiosity, does Spar sell Kosher meats?
I couldn't say, but I don't think so. There's no big demand for kosher products. There are ca. 7000 Jews in town, vs. 125,000 Muslims (out of 1.5 Million).
Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2015, 04:34:05 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on December 03, 2015, 04:17:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2015, 03:57:31 PM
http://www.thelocal.at/20151203/halal-storm-triggers-meat-sale-backtrack
QuoteAdditionally, animal rights activists argued that the Halal method of ritual animal slaughter -- which shares many aspects of Kosher meat production -- was unnecessarily cruel, with animals suffering more when butchers follow the Islamic tradition.
Just out of curiosity, does Spar sell Kosher meats?
I couldn't say, but I don't think so. There's no big demand for kosher products. There are ca. 7000 Jews in town, vs. 125,000 Muslims (out of 1.5 Million).
Fair enough; it would be hard to form much of a comparison given that demographic difference.
Used to be the share of Jews was as high as (or higher than) that of Muslims now.
Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2015, 04:47:47 PM
Used to be the share of Jews was as high as (or higher than) that of Muslims now.
Did they all decide to resettle in the east?
Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2015, 04:47:47 PM
Used to be the share of Jews was as high as (or higher than) that of Muslims now.
Heh, I guess Austrians in the past found a way to avoid the horrors of facing Kosher products on their shelves where they could see them ... :D
There have been complaints in the UK too; apparently a very large proportion of meat is halal here but the driver is commercial in nature with Islam providing a convenient figleaf.
My only objection to eating halal is needless animal suffering involved.
I thought I post it here.
The caption reads: "Nativity scene without Jews, Arabs and refugees."
But sheep! The Welsh approve.
The Swedish government realised that its proposed law that could close down Øresundsbroen was illegal so the the bridge will stay open, however they still want public transport to check the identity of all passengers before they can enter Sweden.
R.I.P. Øresundsprojektet aka. The Scandinavian Metropolis aka. Greater Copenhagen aka. Danish Reconquest of Skåne. :weep:
It's ridicoulous how the biggest cultural breakthrough of EU (free borders for the different people usually hating each other being able to mix and mingle) collapses on the first sight of a challenge to it.
And it's not collapsing because of intolerance: it is collapsing because the leaders are afraid to project an image of intolerance by defending the outside borders of the EU.
Quote from: Tamas on December 08, 2015, 08:18:49 AM
It's ridicoulous how the biggest cultural breakthrough of EU (free borders for the different people usually hating each other being able to mix and mingle) collapses on the first sight of a challenge to it.
And it's not collapsing because of intolerance: it is collapsing because the leaders are afraid to project an image of intolerance by defending the outside borders of the EU.
I agree, it's the blatant disregard for the Dublin treaty that is now forcing Sweden to close its borders because of an overwhelming amount of asylum seekers. Attacking Orban for trying to uphold it was weak, even if Hungary's methods looked brutal, but after all the refugees was intending to (and did) break EU-law.
I don't know, but I feel bad for Sweden. With all its good intention they must now look helplessly by as tens of thousands of refugees have to sleep outside in the winter because there's simply nowhere for them to stay.
Well the Dublin treaty was part of the problem: it has been totally unrealistic to expect even Italy let alone Greece to manage an issue of this magnitude on their own, especially when none of the migrants has any inclination to stay in those countries.
What should have happened, and could still happen in time, is something Orban has started repeating to make sure it never happens I guess: EU-wide cooperation to control te migrant wave at the outside borders ie Greek border.
Is this really surprising for Greece? Tsipras and Syriza were always in favour of unlimited immigration. Even Golden Dawn realised they could profit from the useful idiot posture of Syriza.
PS: RIP for Liep's dreams of Danish Reconquista. :P
BTW a correspondent of the biggest Hungarian news site was at the Macedonian-Greek border where they have stopped accepting refugees who are not actually from war-torn countries.
So thousands of Marocconians, Somalians, and a big mix of other nationalities have "piled up" under horrible conditions, as there doesn't seem to be anyone in charge of the camp that developed there.
Charities try to feed them but it is a big source of frustration and conflict as there isn't enough for everyone, and you have things like the Somalian women afraid of queuing due to the constant groping by Marocconians in the crowd, and the aid workers (understandably) refusing to hand out two meals to the husbands.
Fights are constant.
Recently the crowd snapped when a bunch of Syrians tried to get through to the border crossing. Instead of letting them through like they had done before, they blocked their way and attacked them. Some of the Syrians climbed through the barbed wire to escape.
At the end of it, the crowd dismantled the fences that served as a corridor for the border crossing and used them to block the whole crossing - declaring that if they can't cross, then nobody can. They followed to party through the night int heir jubilation over this victory.
Moroccans should claim they are Saharawis (Western Sahara occupied by Morocco) so eligible to refugee status. :smarty:
PS: assuming they can't pass as Syrians, which they should be able to do.
Why are Moroccans travelling all the way to Greece?
More importantly I'm ashamed I haven't heard of this, I did hear something about non-warring states not allowed, but that it was actually upheld and that camp conditions are so horrible is scary as hell. :(
Quote from: Martinus on December 04, 2015, 11:29:08 AM
My only objection to eating halal is needless animal suffering involved.
It is not like non-halal animals don't suffer.
Quote from: Liep on December 08, 2015, 09:32:25 AM
Why are Moroccans travelling all the way to Greece?
More importantly I'm ashamed I haven't heard of this, I did hear something about non-warring states not allowed, but that it was actually upheld and that camp conditions are so horrible is scary as hell. :(
There's a gallery of pics the guy made:
http://index.hu/galeria/index/kulfold/2015/12/07/elet_az_idomeni_menekulttaborban_panik_agresszio_es_melankolia/
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 08, 2015, 09:43:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 04, 2015, 11:29:08 AM
My only objection to eating halal is needless animal suffering involved.
It is not like non-halal animals don't suffer.
A slit throat or a bolt to the brain.....not a great choice.
I saw sheep killed the halal way when I was in the Atlas mountains. FWIW the animal was unaware of anything untoward until the chap pulled its head back and slit its throat, it collapsed within seconds. In my opinion it suffered less than most animals in the west which are trucked to industrial scale abbatoirs; not that killing animals in your own backyard is possible for most Westerners.
I love the nonchalant attitude of the immigration minister here after she said it was the public transportation companies' responsibility to check travellers for correct passports and visas.
"If they can do it for planes why can't they for trains? It's just checking for valid passports and visas."
"But doesn't that require training?"
"I don't think so."
"Will the government reimburse the companies for extra costs?"
"I can't imagine that, look, we all have to do our part in this crisis."
I saw my Grandma kill chickens a few times - they used to raise their own chickens, ducks, even pigs for a while (they even had cows and horses before I was born, but communism took care of making that unsustainable).
Seemed like very quick for the poor chicken: she would grab the animal, sit down with the chicken in her lap, grab the head and slice the neck with a swift (and impressively professional-looking) motion. The chicken didn't even struggle, it was just... gone.
But as RH said, the population levels we have necessitate industrial level butchering of animals. I am not particularly happy about it but I would be even less happy with seeing people starve, so there is that.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 08, 2015, 09:49:16 AM
not that killing animals in your own backyard is possible for most Westerners.
I have done it. Hard to believe that was once something almost everybody did on a regular basis.
Anyway I still think 3-D printed meat is on the way and the days of industrial slaughter are numbered.
In most slaughterhouse animals are supposed to have some kind of anesthesia before. To get some hallal-style slaughtering you need to go to the countryside witness the pig slaughter with the quick (hopefully) slit throat. Otherwise, the sow death yell is awful.
I took pictures of such a slaughtering matança once to document it. No, it was not in Paris.
Spar said they checked with the Austrian Muslim community and confirmed that using anesthetic before the killing was ok and the meat would still be halal. I guess it depends on how orthodox your views on this is whether or not it's ok.
I remember that when I did my military service in 95/96 that the few Muslim conscripts who served at the time had problems come meal time, because a lot of our food would have pork in it, and obviously there'd be no food designated halal.
Loving that the Canadians are feeling superior for accepting a plane full of refugees.
Meanwhile back in anti-refugee land the richest part of Denmark is hit with a knock out punch, au pairs from non-EU countries no longer counts as immigrants in the quota system and so that municipal actually has to take in refugees now.
This crisis truly affects us all. You know, unless you're not a refugee.
I read yesterday that the Finns have arrested two twin "refugees" who are accused of killing 11 people on an ISIS propaganda video.
They both had an evil twin? Lazy writing.
Quote from: Tamas on December 12, 2015, 06:44:50 AM
I read yesterday that the Finns have arrested two twin "refugees" who are accused of killing 11 people on an ISIS propaganda video.
Yep, It showed up on French press with the regional elections it did not get attention.
http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/monde/europe/finlande-arrestation-de-deux-freres-jumeaux-irakiens-proches-de-daech_1744883.html (http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/monde/europe/finlande-arrestation-de-deux-freres-jumeaux-irakiens-proches-de-daech_1744883.html)
French link
Earlier link but still interesting about these so-called refugees, shia in this case.
http://observers.france24.com/en/20150930-online-hunt-iraqi-syrian-militiamen-europe-refugees (http://observers.france24.com/en/20150930-online-hunt-iraqi-syrian-militiamen-europe-refugees)
QuoteThe online hunt for Iraqi and Syrian militiamen in Europe
Contribute
OBSERVERS
Mohamed Al-Cheikhili
Europe's unprecedented migrant crisis appears to have presented an opportunity for some Shiite militiamen fighting in the Middle East. Internet users believe they have spotted a handful of notorious fighters in photos of refugees in Europe. There is now a campaign to name and shame these alleged militiamen, as our Observer explains.
In Iraq, Shiite militiamen are fighting against the Islamic State group's jihadists. In neighbouring Syria, they're fighting alongside Bashar Al Assad's army as the country sinks into an ever-deadlier conflict. Yet according to new photographic evidence, dozens may have also reached Europe by hiding among the tide of refugees pouring out of Syria.
Sajjad Al-Atibi is probably the most notorious of these militiamen to have been spotted. He's known to be close to Abu Azrael, a provocative figure who recently appeared in a video in which he mutilated and burned alive a man suspected of belonging to the Islamic State group.
In one photo published on social media networks, Al-Atibi appears alongside Azrael, clutching a rifle. Both men fought together in the Imam Ali brigade, a militia battling Islamic State group jihadists under the banner of the Hachid al-Chaabi paramilitary coalition.
Internet users spotted a second photo showing Al-Atibi taking a selfie with an Austrian policeman. When questioned about the photo, the Imam Ali brigade insisted - in a hardly convincing manner - that their fighter was not fleeing to Europe, but was simply there on holiday.
In the photo on the left, Al-Atibi poses with an Austrian policeman. In the photo on the right, he can be seen alongside a militiaman called Abu Azrael, known for committing acts of torture. Photo published on Twitter and blurred by France 24.
Outraged, Azrael filmed a video in which he called on any militia fighters who have fled the country to immediately come back. He notably warns against a so-called "American-Israeli conspiracy aimed at emptying Iraq of its combatants."
Another set of widely-shared images are those that show this militiaman, who clearly fights for the Iraqi Hezbollah. He turns up in several photos wearing the uniform of the unit, which is suspected of carrying out a series of kidnappings and murders throughout 2014 in the cities of Samarra and Kirkuk. In another group of photos, the same man is shown dressed in rags, crying, and holding a baby in his arms behind a barbed wire fence. According to the Al-Arabiya TV network, the photos were reportedly taken on the Hungarian border. France 24 has not been able to independently verify that information as yet.
We tried to contact Iraq's Hezbollah brigade for more information, but did not receive a response.
Another militiaman shows up in several pictures wearing an Iraqi army fatigues (as is common for Shiite militia fighters) and carrying weapons. But that doesn't appear to have stopped him from regularly giving updates on his journey to Europe via Facebook. In a series of posts, he chronicles a journey that seems to have taken him to Greece, then Germany, and finally Finland, where he appears to have settled.
In the photos on the left, the young fighter wears military fatigues in Iraq. On the right he's shown in Finland, having recently arrived. These photos were uploaded to his Facebook page. Photo blurred by France 24.
According to the Iraqi NGO Al-Salam, more than 300 Iraqi militiamen may have sneaked out of the country by hiding among civilians fleeing cities like Ramadi, Fallujah, and Mosul, where fighting between Iraqi army troops and Shiite militias on one side and Islamic State group jihadists on the other has been raging since last August. They head first to Turkey, before reaching Europe onboard rickety boats used by refugees.
Mohamed Al-Cheikhili works for the National Centre for Justice, an Iraqi human rights NGO based in London. He's launched a campaign to gather more information about these fighters in order to prosecute them.
"These militiamen are so happy to reach Europe that they can't refrain from posting photos on social media networks
We've even received help from inside the Iraqi government, particularly from a well-placed official in the Ministry of Human Rights who provided us with photos. However, this person doesn't want to reveal his or her identity because the powerful Shiite militias could then put pressure on him.
Quite often, these same militiamen often name and shame themselves. But they forget that the photos showing their time fighting within the ranks of militias still exist online! However, many of them deactivate both their Facebook and Twitter accounts as soon as they realise that they have been uncovered.
To be granted asylum in Europe, these militia fighters often pretend to be Sunnis fleeing regions in western Iraq, like al-Anbar, a province ravaged by Islamic State group jihadists. Some buy fake Syrian passports in order to speed up the asylum process.
But we don't only focus on investigating Iraqi militias. We've also spotted pro-government Syrian fighters among the refugees and have pointed out their presence to the relevant authorities.
On social media networks, this man is accused of being part of the notorious 'Shabiha', a militia with very close ties to the Syrian regime. Photo uploaded to Twitter and blurred by France 24.
The United Nations Convention relating to the Status of Refugees, as well as the 1990 Dublin Regulation on the right to asylum, states that asylum will be refused to anyone implicated in war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide. We use that as a foundation on which to base our calls for European countries to refuse giving refugee status to these militiamen. So we're continuing to gather evidence against militia fighters that have carried out abuses against civilians in Iraq.
Shiite militia fighters are not the only militiamen to have been spotted in Europe. Several fighters for Iraqi Kurd militias have also been spotted in recent weeks, again through photos posted on social media. Human Rights Watch has accused Iraqi Kurdish forces of stopping Arab residents from returning to their homes after they were displaced by fighting with jihadists this summer, in the Ninawa and Irbil provinces. They are also accused of detaining 70 local Arab men for long periods without charge.
WAR CRIMES / EUROPE / IRAQ
One thing is certain: since france started controlling its border with Belgium again the cross-border (that is from France into Belgium, and more specifically South-West-Flanders) crime-wave (usually by people from maghrebien-stock) has dropped of to almost nothing. Needless to say that a lot of people in the region aren't in a hurry to see Shengen re-enacted in full there, given that the crime-wave has been going on for nearly two decades.
We're famous! DENMARK! DENMARK!
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/16/denmark-wants-to-take-jewelry-from-syrian-refugees.html?
http://www.vox.com/2015/12/17/10326178/denmark-refugee-jewelry-valuables
The Vikings are pillaging again.
Bring out your dentalwear!
Quote
To be granted asylum in Europe, these militia fighters often pretend to be Sunnis fleeing regions in western Iraq, like al-Anbar, a province ravaged by Islamic State group jihadists. Some buy fake Syrian passports in order to speed up the asylum process
Is there any way to tell the difference between Sunnis and shiites?
Some kind of test like the old feudal japanese step on the Christian idol thing?
Quote from: Tyr on December 17, 2015, 10:25:07 PM
Quote
To be granted asylum in Europe, these militia fighters often pretend to be Sunnis fleeing regions in western Iraq, like al-Anbar, a province ravaged by Islamic State group jihadists. Some buy fake Syrian passports in order to speed up the asylum process
Is there any way to tell the difference between Sunnis and shiites?
Some kind of test like the old feudal japanese step on the Christian idol thing?
yes there are: the same tests -ironically- IS uses to differentiate and which have been mentioned in the ISIS thread (iirc). It's in the way they pray and such
The bigger issue is of course how to recognise fake syrian passports. Nigh on impossible since the rebels can make their own using stolen -official- equipment.
The solution is of course to send them all to Russia or keep them in the region.
http://www.thelocal.at/20151218/xenophobes-mistake-baroque-church-for-mosque
QuoteXenophobes mistake church for mosque
Far-right extremists who mistook one of Europe's most famous churches for a mosque have demanded it be pulled down.
The world-famous St Charles Church - or Karlskirche - in the Austrian capital Vienna is regarded as the city's most famous baroque church.
But a campaign to have the building which was completed in 1737 pulled down was launched after a story appeared in satirical Austrian newspaper Die Tagespresse claiming that anti-immigration Freedom Party of Austria (FPÖ) chairman Heinz-Christian Strache wanted the Karlsplatz "Mosque" pulled down.
From there it became a campaign on social media, with numerous groups starting to back the campaign to have the mosque pulled down, even though it is not a mosque at all - but a Catholic Church.
The similarity to a mosque was apparently because the architect of the time, Johann Bernhard Fischer von Erlach, had modelled his design on the Hagia Sophia, a former Christian church that later became a mosque in the Turkish city of Istanbul.
Ironically the original satirical posting was made five months ago, but it has only now gone viral on social media.
One user wrote: "This building should simply be eradicated and it just doesn't belong in our culture. Who's building such crap in our society?
Others demanded to know whose money had been used to build the mosque.
And yet another demanded that it be pulled down so that a decent church can be built in its place.
Original article (in German): "FPÖ leader Strache wants to tear down mosque at Karlsplatz": http://dietagespresse.com/strache-will-moschee-am-wiener-karlsplatz-abreissen/
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftagespresse.dietagespresse.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F07%2Fmoscheekarlsplatz-700x350.jpg&hash=9fee2c50911eeefeee4dae1645364b2e51d98979)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.giantbomb.com%2Fuploads%2Fscale_super%2F0%2F4355%2F1145798-941670_937204_facepalm_implied_super_super.jpg&hash=6b7f052ed0866c16b8b7b883857dfeb6731dfdc1)
Quote from: Syt on December 18, 2015, 05:16:35 AM
Ironically the original satirical posting was made five months ago, but it has only now gone viral on social media.
Ironically, person paid to put words together uses one that he doesn't really know.
The Local usually translates news stories from other media, so I won't hold them to very high standards. They save me the trouble of having to translate stories myself. :P
Islamoid asylum seekers brutally murder an elderly gay man in Gothenburg.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3364353/North-African-teenager-stabs-Swedish-transvestite-death-hangs-SNAKE-neck-going-home-discovering-not-woman-wig-slipped.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3364353/North-African-teenager-stabs-Swedish-transvestite-death-hangs-SNAKE-neck-going-home-discovering-not-woman-wig-slipped.html)
Quote from: Legbiter on December 18, 2015, 10:54:03 AM
Islamoid asylum seekers brutally murder an elderly gay man in Gothenburg.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3364353/North-African-teenager-stabs-Swedish-transvestite-death-hangs-SNAKE-neck-going-home-discovering-not-woman-wig-slipped.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3364353/North-African-teenager-stabs-Swedish-transvestite-death-hangs-SNAKE-neck-going-home-discovering-not-woman-wig-slipped.html)
Not even the Daily Mail manages to blame this on Islam, so are you just calling all Africans for Islamoids now for reasons? Or do you know more than is in the article?
North African to be fair. He has about a 90% chance of being correct.
Horrible but I do kind of have to laugh at the headline
QuoteNorth African teenager stabs Swedish transvestite to death and hangs a SNAKE around his neck after going to his home and discovering he was not a woman when his wig slipped
Standards: This kid doesn't have them. Just as long as it has a vagina anyway.
Though no, it was the poor old guy trying to be nice :(
They're building fences at the last station before Sweden so as to better control the masses when the ID checks begin January 4th. I wonder how many people are going to try and cross the Sund illegally by boat.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmultimedia.pol.dk%2Farchive%2F00992%2F2015-09-05_dagens_t_992292a.jpg&hash=a325b6b67087f97a2a0154365a4f53e0b132e28b)
ID checks will be on every oresund train?
So much for greater Copenhagen :(
Quote from: Tyr on December 27, 2015, 05:43:53 AM
ID checks will be on every oresund train?
So much for greater Copenhagen :(
:weep:
The West is now under siege. I do believe we'll see it collapse before we die, thanks to 'la gauche bo-bo-gna-gnan'; all those multiculturalist imbeciles who care more about their moral superiority than the civilization that bred them.
G.
How long do you plan to live?
Quote from: Grallon on December 27, 2015, 08:02:04 PM
The West is now under siege. I do believe we'll see it collapse before we die, thanks to 'la gauche bo-bo-gna-gnan'; all those multiculturalist imbeciles who care more about their moral superiority than the civilization that bred them.
G.
And I'd say completely the opposite. It's all those anti multiculturalist imbeciles who are the bigger threat to our way of life.
Quote from: Tyr on December 27, 2015, 08:09:11 PM
And I'd say completely the opposite. It's all those anti multiculturalist imbeciles who are the bigger threat to our way of life.
So you'd rather get on your four, ass in the air, and pray towards Mecca than admit you're delusional about the whole issue? I'm not surprised; Houellebecq was right about you lot.
G.
You should remember, Tyr has been a foreigner since high school.
Quote from: Grallon on December 27, 2015, 08:17:50 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 27, 2015, 08:09:11 PM
And I'd say completely the opposite. It's all those anti multiculturalist imbeciles who are the bigger threat to our way of life.
So you'd rather get on your four, ass in the air, and pray towards Mecca than admit you're delusional about the whole issue? I'm not surprised; Houellebecq was right about you lot.
G.
That isn't the multicultural option. The multicultural option is living your own life and doing your own thing whilst those who want to do that are free to do so.
Far more preferable to goose stepping around on neighbourhood darkie hunts, beating people who play music with foreign lyrics and eating nought but turnips and porridge and other such 100% native muck.
Quote from: Tyr on December 28, 2015, 11:39:23 AM
Quote from: Grallon on December 27, 2015, 08:17:50 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 27, 2015, 08:09:11 PM
And I'd say completely the opposite. It's all those anti multiculturalist imbeciles who are the bigger threat to our way of life.
So you'd rather get on your four, ass in the air, and pray towards Mecca than admit you're delusional about the whole issue? I'm not surprised; Houellebecq was right about you lot.
G.
That isn't the multicultural option. The multicultural option is living your own life and doing your own thing whilst those who want to do that are free to do so.
Far more preferable to goose stepping around on neighbourhood darkie hunts, beating people who play music with foreign lyrics and eating nought but turnips and porridge and other such 100% native muck.
so basically a total fragmentation of society where every individual fragment does it's "native muck". How does it feel to be an oikophobe?
Maybe only 90% of your native muck and 10% kebab at 5am on the way home from the party.
Seems to me that we could just print off some recipe books if we fancy more varied food :cool:
What I find interesting is that xenophobia is dismissed by so many commentators as a reason why we should discourage immigration. Xenophobia may not be nice or enlightened, but it is also very prevalent in many groups and is not going to go away any time soon. I'm a xenophile myself so see many immigrant groups as non-problematic; the reason I'm so often on the fence when discussing Muslim immigration is that many Muslim groups seem xenophobic to me, they are not going to mix with our native xenophobes very well.
It seems to me the most xenophobic Muslims are the ones born here raised in the ghettos. The refugees kinda like us.
I'm not sure what that says about us though. :unsure:
I think that is understandable. I'd expect a foreigner to be more tolerant of his adopted country's failings. But if you are native-born and still in a ghetto (both physical and cultural) then we can expect trouble.
Actually in an ideal world, the model proposed by Tyr would be perfect - a strong but "small" government apparatus enforcing everybody's right to absolute freedom of lifestyle (assuming it does not attempt to limit the same rights of every other individual). This is the ideal government.
In totally unrelated news: A Danish teenager of middle eastern heritage got fired from his part time job because he had posted a note in a thread in the Facebook group "Yes to freedom, no to Islam". The post "Denmark is my country too. :)" was too much for some members who called his employer and said that he had harassed them.
FREEDOM!
It's not like national cultures are so incredibly solid and unified anyway. We've had subcultures and local cultures for centuries.
But, even Norway, with its comparatively small percentage of immigrants has failed massively when it comes to integrating people into "normal society". That's the one with work and taking part in public life. Some groups have fared better than others, but that's mostly their own doing.
Xenophobia and anti-immigration stances seem to be more prevalent among people who feel their own position threatened by cheap labour or "unfair" perceived government handouts. Although social class and education might play a role, I won't mention it as not to call anyone an uneducated buffoon.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 link=topic=12981.msg938999#msg938999
so basically a total fragmentation of society where every individual fragment does it's "native muck". How does it feel to be an oikophobe?
Not really.
One of the advantages of our modern multi cultural society is that we are open to the world and not many people under 60 particularly care that they're eating a Chinese dish or that their football team's striker has rather a lot of melanin in his skin
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 29, 2015, 03:08:23 AM
so basically a total fragmentation of society where every individual fragment does it's "native muck". How does it feel to be an oikophobe?
This is hilarious coming from a guy who lives in a country inhabited by only 11 million people, who after nearly 200 years together can't even agree they form a single nation. Compared to you, Muslims integrate at a neckbreak pace.
Quote from: Tyr on December 29, 2015, 04:33:06 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 link=topic=12981.msg938999#msg938999
so basically a total fragmentation of society where every individual fragment does it's "native muck". How does it feel to be an oikophobe?
Not really.
One of the advantages of our modern multi cultural society is that we are open to the world and not many people under 60 particularly care that they're eating a Chinese dish or that their football team's striker has rather a lot of melanin in his skin
I think, ultimately, it all boils down to ensuring you are giving people freedom of choice. I think there are people who are genuinely happy when they are given a subordinate social position - whether it is women in a Muslim culture, or cult followers in a cult of personality or people living under a paternalistic dictator. The trouble comes in separating the people who want this from people on whom it is forced - and protecting the latter from retaliation by the former if they choose to break away. And then, of course, as always you have children, who come and fuck up every ideal social concept - unless of course, you do away with the "biological parents raise their children" silliness I have always opposed. :P
Edit: For Valmy's sake, the last part is said half-jokingly - but I do think that whenever you have a relatively self-contained and working well in theory social model where freedom of choice is respected - it kinda stumbles when you get to kids. Because on one hand you don't want them to be brainwashed but on the other you have to recognize they do not get to exercise unrestricted freedom of choice until they hit at least puberty. It's quite a conundrum.
At a Mosque in Stockholm someone had put a sign at the women's entrance (the small side entrance that they are allowed to use). It read "Women's entrance". It was gone within a day. ^_^
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2015, 04:34:04 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 29, 2015, 03:08:23 AM
so basically a total fragmentation of society where every individual fragment does it's "native muck". How does it feel to be an oikophobe?
This is hilarious coming from a guy who lives in a country inhabited by only 11 million people, who after nearly 200 years together can't even agree they form a single nation. Compared to you, Muslims integrate at a neckbreak pace.
that's hilarious from a guy coming from a country where the people couldn't even agree to become Germans, Austrians or Russians. It's also hilarious given that this guy becomes more gauche-caviar depending on his distance to large amounts of immigrants.
Quote from: Tyr on December 29, 2015, 04:33:06 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 link=topic=12981.msg938999#msg938999
so basically a total fragmentation of society where every individual fragment does it's "native muck". How does it feel to be an oikophobe?
Not really.
One of the advantages of our modern multi cultural society is that we are open to the world and not many people under 60 particularly care that they're eating a Chinese dish or that their football team's striker has rather a lot of melanin in his skin
So a footballteam and a cookbook... You know very well it's a load of bull.
:lol:
Not really. I'm surprised you don't realise this anti multI cultural malarkey is a load of shite.
Those were just 2 examples. The point being that multi culturalism permeates every little part of our lives. Life without it, if it could be at all possible, would be rather drab.
Quote from: Tyr on December 29, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
... The point being that multi culturalism permeates every little part of our lives. Life without it, if it could be at all possible, would be rather drab.
It's quite fascinating, in a grotesque way, to witness such complete indoctrination. Clearly you don't understand what multiculturalism is and its real purpose. If diversity and the acceptance of all foreign differences is the new religion then you must be one of its zealots and like everyone knows - it's pointless to debate with a religious nutjob.
G.
Is that a fairly recent thing? I see it here as well, people dismissing arguments by saying you can't discuss with the opponent because he/she is a fanatic.
I don't discuss with the opponent because he/she is a moran.
Quote from: Liep on December 29, 2015, 08:21:16 AM
Is that a fairly recent thing? I see it here as well, people dismissing arguments by saying you can't discuss with the opponent because he/she is a fanatic.
A common occurrence on the Net yes. People usually share very little with whoever they engage in debates with so there's no common ground to reach a compromise and change their way of thinking. Then there are the preconceptions that accrete over time in any given forum and tend to short-circuit whatever argument being offered for the simple reason of who offers them.
-----
Personally I believe deeds speak louder than words and in this particular case, it has been demonstrated numerous times that multiculturalism does not work. It doesn't foster amity, brotherhood and universal peace like some would like have us believe but rather the opposite: a gradually fragmenting society made of a patchwork of little factions and subgroups that grow entrenched in their differences and compete for (diminishing) resources and privileges rather than unite to move in one direction or another.
G.
Quote from: Grallon on December 29, 2015, 07:55:33 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 29, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
... The point being that multi culturalism permeates every little part of our lives. Life without it, if it could be at all possible, would be rather drab.
It's quite fascinating, in a grotesque way, to witness such complete indoctrination. Clearly you don't understand what multiculturalism is and its real purpose. If diversity and the acceptance of all foreign differences is the new religion then you must be one of its zealots and like everyone knows - it's pointless to debate with a religious nutjob.
G.
You're the indoctrinated one mate :hug:
It seriously is kind of scary how people lap up the media bombardment of multiculturalism bad, schrodigers immigrant, etc....
Quote from: Tyr on December 29, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
:lol:
Not really. I'm surprised you don't realise this anti multI cultural malarkey is a load of shite.
Those were just 2 examples. The point being that multi culturalism permeates every little part of our lives. Life without it, if it could be at all possible, would be rather drab.
Nice recital of the oikophobe creed.
You're pretty far gone aren't you? Enjoy your balkanisation, cause that is the real name of your multiculti.
You all realize that neither one of you is making any sense, right?
What the hell is an Oikophobe? Is that like the opposite of an agoraphobe?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 29, 2015, 05:29:24 PM
You all realize that neither one of you is making any sense, right?
Sadly, based on their posting history, no, they don't realize it.
Something to do with the Oikoumene I expect, the Oikoumene being the known, inhabited or civilised world. An ancient Greek term dontcha know. So an oikophobe would be someone who hates the West.
Thank God we went with Latin and German instead of Greek.
Greek has its merits.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 29, 2015, 05:29:24 PM
You all realize that neither one of you is making any sense, right?
My thoughts as well :lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 30, 2015, 02:27:35 AM
Thank God we went with Latin and German instead of Greek.
Actually we went with Latin and (Ancient) Greek, classic humanities, not German.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 30, 2015, 02:07:41 AM
Something to do with the Oikoumene I expect, the Oikoumene being the known, inhabited or civilised world. An ancient Greek term dontcha know. So an oikophobe would be someone who hates the West.
:hmm:
Interesting, never heard that word before.
So again it is pots calling kettles black
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 29, 2015, 07:00:06 AM
that's hilarious from a guy coming from a country where the people couldn't even agree to become Germans, Austrians or Russians.
Totally comparable to modern Belgium :lol:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 30, 2015, 02:07:41 AM
Something to do with the Oikoumene I expect, the Oikoumene being the known, inhabited or civilised world. An ancient Greek term dontcha know. So an oikophobe would be someone who hates the West.
I figured it had to do with being afraid of your own house (Oikos) and refusing to go in. Making it the opposite of Agoraphoba fear of the market place (agora) and by extension fear being outside the house. Of course both Oikos and Oikoumene are related. We get latinized words coming from both "ecumenical" comes from "oikoumene" and "economy" comes from "oikos".
Question for the barricade erectors, would you allow some refugees in if they had a better grasp of Latin and Greek than the locals?
Quote from: mongers on December 30, 2015, 09:16:17 AM
Question for the barricade erectors, would you allow some refugees in if they had a better grasp of Latin and Greek than the locals?
No fucking way! See what happened the last time the Latin speakers ran things. Bunch of immigrants came. Beards and all, foreign food and smelled like dung, they did.
Quote from: Norgy on December 30, 2015, 09:18:18 AM
Quote from: mongers on December 30, 2015, 09:16:17 AM
Question for the barricade erectors, would you allow some refugees in if they had a better grasp of Latin and Greek than the locals?
No fucking way! See what happened the last time the Latin speakers ran things. Bunch of immigrants came. Beards and all, foreign food and smelled like dung, they did.
But after only like a 1000 years we got the renaissance!
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on December 30, 2015, 03:10:44 AM
Actually we went with Latin and (Ancient) Greek, classic humanities, not German.
This post is a fusion of Latin and German.
German is as relevant in classic humanities as are Celtic languages.
Now he's Celt-bashing.
The pro-German Sturmbrigade is again bashing the Celts. :(
Damn xenophobes!
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on December 30, 2015, 06:51:24 PM
German is as relevant in classic humanities as are Celtic languages.
You seem to be missing my point. English is Germanic language with strong Romance influences.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 30, 2015, 07:25:05 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on December 30, 2015, 06:51:24 PM
German is as relevant in classic humanities as are Celtic languages.
You seem to be missing my point. English is Germanic language with strong Romance influences.
Then don't speak of a very vague "we". Besides, lots of Greek loans were made through Classical Latin, vulgar Latin, Romance languages (post-vulgar Latin if you will). Not to mention the high prevalence of Greek words in technical and scientific lexica.
He didn't speak vaguely at all. :huh:
Quote from: mongers on December 30, 2015, 09:16:17 AM
Question for the barricade erectors, would you allow some refugees in if they had a better grasp of Latin and Greek than the locals?
Yes, but then it won't happen, so it's a pretty easy call to make. :smarty:
border control is in full effect and we're already getting stories about refugees "stranding" in copenhagen. "no denmark, no denmark" they shout because apparently we're the hungary of northern europe.
Quote from: Liep on January 04, 2016, 02:46:49 PM
border control is in full effect and we're already getting stories about refugees "stranding" in copenhagen. "no denmark, no denmark" they shout because apparently we're the hungary of northern europe.
Sounds about right.
OMG Grallon and Crazy Ivan was right
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/01/blind-mystic-baba-vanga-predicts-isis-invasion-of-europe_n_8903050.html
QuoteAround 60 complaints have been made to the police in Cologne after a group of around 1,000 men attacked revellers in the city centre in a brutal and "completely unheard of" way, Wolfgang Albers, Chief of Police in the Rhineland city said at a press conference on Monday afternoon.
Around a third of the complaints were of sexual assault, regional paper Express reported.
"There was a very large number of sexual assaults there - and in a massive way. Women were grabbed and attacked," said Albers, adding that in one case the alleged crime fitted the legal definition of rape.
"The crimes were committed by a group of people who from appearance were largely from the north African or Arab world," the police chief added.
A group of around 500 men between the ages of 15 and 35 assembled at the central train station and in the area of the cathedral before throwing firecrackers into the masses of people celebrating the arrival of the new year.
This appears to have been a means of causing distraction, as during the disturbance groups of young men entered the crowd where they sexually assaulted women and pick-pocketed revellers.
http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne (http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne)
Quote from: Legbiter on January 04, 2016, 09:05:00 PM
QuoteAround 60 complaints have been made to the police in Cologne after a group of around 1,000 men attacked revellers in the city centre in a brutal and "completely unheard of" way, Wolfgang Albers, Chief of Police in the Rhineland city said at a press conference on Monday afternoon.
Around a third of the complaints were of sexual assault, regional paper Express reported.
"There was a very large number of sexual assaults there - and in a massive way. Women were grabbed and attacked," said Albers, adding that in one case the alleged crime fitted the legal definition of rape.
"The crimes were committed by a group of people who from appearance were largely from the north African or Arab world," the police chief added.
A group of around 500 men between the ages of 15 and 35 assembled at the central train station and in the area of the cathedral before throwing firecrackers into the masses of people celebrating the arrival of the new year.
This appears to have been a means of causing distraction, as during the disturbance groups of young men entered the crowd where they sexually assaulted women and pick-pocketed revellers.
http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne (http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne)
At least HuffPo US won't mention that they're Arabs.
In Cologne, gayest city of Germany, no less. :(
According to police there are ca. 80 suspects, the large majority of them police-known repeat offenders, i.e. not refugees fresh off the boat.
Looks like some gangs used the crowd to "blend in" and then stage their attacks.
This story has just made it onto the BBC :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2016, 05:10:57 AM
According to police there are ca. 80 suspects, the large majority of them police-known repeat offenders, i.e. not refugees fresh off the boat.
Looks like some gangs used the crowd to "blend in" and then stage their attacks.
IDK. 80 out of 1000 isn't that much, and obviously police would most easily identify and go after repeat offenders.
Quote from: The Brain on January 05, 2016, 03:57:36 AMAt least HuffPo US won't mention that they're Arabs.
The story was reported on the website of the national broadcaster here, having been carefully sanitized, so no mention of any hatefacts such as the ethnic nature of the attackers. Other media outlets here are studiously ignoring it as it would clash with their Gutmensch narrative.
It's not unusual for youth groups to want to disrupt other people's parties but in those numbers? That's pretty insane. How did they even organize it?
Yesterday Denmark started doing random controls at maybe 25% of our borders with Germany and still the newspapers are surprised that we're getting asylum seekers today. :huh:
In retalilation, German border shops should stop selling alcohol to bearers of Danish passports. :P
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2016, 07:59:22 AM
In retalilation, German border shops should stop selling alcohol to bearers of Danish passports. :P
Then they might as well just close. :P
Quote from: Legbiter on January 05, 2016, 07:30:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on January 05, 2016, 03:57:36 AMAt least HuffPo US won't mention that they're Arabs.
The story was reported on the website of the national broadcaster here, having been carefully sanitized, so no mention of any hatefacts such as the ethnic nature of the attackers. Other media outlets here are studiously ignoring it as it would clash with their Gutmensch narrative.
German media clearly states that the perpetrators are of North African or Middle Eastern origin. No Gutmensch narrative there.
That said, even 1000 would be just 1/10 percent of the migrants that came to Germany this year and as Syt pointed out police thinks that it was a known gang of drug dealers at Cologne's main station.
And as guilt is individual, not collective in Germany we need to find the perpetrators and not the ethnic group they belong to. I guess we might need more police resources in the years to come...
The Guardian has more details :
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/germany-crisis-cologne-new-years-eve-sex-attacks
Pretty big gang of drug dealers.
Can't read the Guardian article as McDonalds in Argentina blocks it. :huh:
German media and police say it was groups of 3 to 20 that actually committed the acts. The bigger figure of thousand people is the entire number of people celebrating in the square, i.e. victims, perpetrators and bystanders.
The Telegraph also has more http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12082366/German-women-report-string-of-sexual-assaults-by-Arab-and-North-African-men.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12082366/German-women-report-string-of-sexual-assaults-by-Arab-and-North-African-men.html)
Like the other sources, it notes that it wasn't just Cologne, but also Hamburg. And reports are coming in from Stuttgart, too.
Funny that the major German news media took several days to report this :hmm:
From the article:
"Shortly after midnight, the first women came to us," an unnamed police officer told the local Express newspaper.
"Crying and in shock they described how they had been severely sexually harrassed. We went to look for women in the crowd. I picked one up from the ground. She was screaming and crying. Her underwear had been torn from her body."
also,
In Hamburg, witnesses described groups of young men who followed women calling out "Bitch! Ficky ficky!"
"Some girls were chased like cattle," a 17-year-old woman told Bild newspaper. "I'm stunned that such a thing is possible in Hamburg. It makes you scared to celebrate in the neighbourhood."
Feeling enriched, Zanza?
Don't worry, as their numbers swell they will get to you, too. Remember to thank Merkel.
Anyway, even though the cowardly gutmensch will do their best to prevent the true culprits from being named (and yes, they ARE COWARDS, since it was 100% obvious that this and far worse would and will happen, but are too afraid to speak out to defend their own countryfolk, especially their women, and even go out of their way to attack as 'intolerant' those that do), the authorities have no doubts as to whom they should target.
"We will not take gangs of North African men humiliating defenceless women with brazen sexual attacks," Ralf Jäger, the interior minister of the state of North Rhine-Westphalia, said.
In b4 the usual "these are just isolated incidents" or the "we need to see each case in context" morons post here too.
QuoteIn b4 the usual "these are just isolated incidents" or the "we need to see each case in context" morons post here too.
Well sorry for believing that when a crime is committed we should punish the criminals rather than their entire community :rolleyes:
Quote from: Tyr on January 05, 2016, 10:48:57 AM
QuoteIn b4 the usual "these are just isolated incidents" or the "we need to see each case in context" morons post here too.
Well sorry for believing that when a crime is committed we should punish the criminals rather than their entire community :rolleyes:
I don't think the criminal community should be protected.
QuoteFeeling enriched, Zanza?
No idea where this question is coming from. If you read the thread I was always cautious and remain so. The reasons why I think we should accept refugees have nothing to do with feeling enriched. Maybe you confuse me with another poster?
That said, I don't think sensationalist media villfying groups of people helps us to integrate foreigners or reduce crime. I will go with the actual statements by German police which I trust much more than British media.
The Guardian article includes the following :
"Arnold Plickert, head of the police trade union in NRW, told the Deutsche Presse Agentur that the incidents were "of a new quality ... What we've been able to establish is that this is an organised method."
He said questions needed to be asked as to "how it was possible that this thousand-strong group was able to come to Cologne and meet up there"."
Well, as I said, I would go with what the police says, not what the police union or whoever says. You are of course free to believe other sources more.
Are the deutsche presse agentur reliable? They seem to be the chief source for these accounts.
http://www.dpa-international.com/news/top_stories/germany-warns-against-scapegoating-refugees-after-mass-sexual-assault-a-47829553.html
I'm shocked that a Languishian mistrusts MSM.
Hmm, the police said there were 90 reported crimes, although most were robbery/pickpocketing not sexual assaults and that there was one case of rape. But at least this article is clearer about how small groups, not "1000" actually committed the criminal acts.
Just to make it clear: I don't want to trivialise what happened, but I don't think that it increases security if we exaggerate the facts either.
It's clear that police failed to uphold order and respond appropriately. It's clear that a group of drunk ethnic North Africans, likely not recent migrants, committed the crimes. Beyond that, I don't think we can say very much.
I don't think this is the Untergang des Abendlandes yet...
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 11:43:56 AM
Just to make it clear: I don't want to trivialise what happened, but I don't think that it increases security if we exaggerate the facts either.
It's clear that police failed to uphold order and respond appropriately. It's clear that a group of drunk ethnic North Africans, likely not recent migrants, committed the crimes. Beyond that, I don't think we can say very much.
I don't think this is the Untergang des Abendlandes yet...
You accuse them of violating their religion? Classy.
On a regular weekend night in a major city, which percentage of unwanted groping gets reported to the police?
Quote from: The Brain on January 05, 2016, 11:55:18 AM
On a regular weekend night in a major city, which percentage of unwanted groping gets reported to the police?
Close to zero I would guess. Reportings from violent groping and being chased around by a group of thugs I would imagine to be a lot higher.
the method reminds of the actions towards female protestors at Tahrir square.
But then again: we know that arabs -drunk or otherwise- generally don't have much respect for women, especially western women.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 05, 2016, 01:58:32 PM
the method reminds of the actions towards female protestors at Tahrir square.
But then again: we know that arabs -drunk or otherwise- generally don't have much respect for women, especially western women.
As I consider our culture of female emancipation and equality supreme, the question has to be how we can teach/convince/compel all members of our society (and that includes recent migrants) to adhere to these principles. The very fact that our culture is supreme should make an eventual adoption by a majority of migrants inevitable in my opinion. I am convinced that our culture is so powerful that it is irresistible for most. For the rest we need the police to show them their limits.
I never thought a German boasting about the supremacy of his Kultur would seem so positive and hopeful to me. :hmm:
Not many people in Sweden are prepared to come out and say that our culture is superior to Muslim culture. Many feminists (and certainly the biggest purely feminist party) think it is much more important not to offend the bearded guardians of Muslim order than to stand up for women.
Quote from: Valmy on January 05, 2016, 03:42:49 PM
I never thought a German boasting about the supremacy of his Kultur would seem so positive and hopeful to me. :hmm:
:lol:
Quote from: The Brain on January 05, 2016, 03:49:03 PM
Not many people in Sweden are prepared to come out and say that our culture is superior to Muslim culture. Many feminists (and certainly the biggest purely feminist party) think it is much more important not to offend the bearded guardians of Muslim order than to stand up for women.
So Sweden is a sad state, if what you say is true. Why should we care?
In lighter news, UNHCR posted an article on Germans "adopting" refugees into their homes and although the article itself is a cloying twaddle of unctious flattery of the gutmensch kind one photo is accidently rather amusing.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd2nj4n4ep9vg2s.cloudfront.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F12%2FIbrahim_IP.jpeg&hash=c87b52f83e4d092f9ab6d591f2eb65d45dec722b)
http://tracks.unhcr.org/2015/12/the-germans-welcoming-refugees-into-their-homes/ (http://tracks.unhcr.org/2015/12/the-germans-welcoming-refugees-into-their-homes/)
Languishbrahs with social skills who understand a bit of body language can enjoy the above on several levels. :lol:
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 05, 2016, 01:58:32 PM
the method reminds of the actions towards female protestors at Tahrir square.
But then again: we know that arabs -drunk or otherwise- generally don't have much respect for women, especially western women.
As I consider our culture of female emancipation and equality supreme, the question has to be how we can teach/convince/compel all members of our society (and that includes recent migrants) to adhere to these principles. The very fact that our culture is supreme should make an eventual adoption by a majority of migrants inevitable in my opinion. I am convinced that our culture is so powerful that it is irresistible for most. For the rest we need the police to show them their limits.
funny thing is: the arabs/muslims (in sofar the overlap isn't total) think the same of their "culture", and believe it's only a matter of time before we succumb. And given the weakwilledness of many of the European elites, they may actually win this time. Or at best we'll have to do the emancipatory fights of the 20th century all over again. It's not as if this particular subset of migrants is coming for our superior culture after all...
Quote from: Valmy on January 05, 2016, 03:42:49 PM
I never thought a German boasting about the supremacy of his Kultur would seem so positive and hopeful to me. :hmm:
Female emancipation and equality is not specifically German Kultur but part of a broader Western culture.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 05, 2016, 04:20:40 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 05, 2016, 01:58:32 PM
the method reminds of the actions towards female protestors at Tahrir square.
But then again: we know that arabs -drunk or otherwise- generally don't have much respect for women, especially western women.
As I consider our culture of female emancipation and equality supreme, the question has to be how we can teach/convince/compel all members of our society (and that includes recent migrants) to adhere to these principles. The very fact that our culture is supreme should make an eventual adoption by a majority of migrants inevitable in my opinion. I am convinced that our culture is so powerful that it is irresistible for most. For the rest we need the police to show them their limits.
funny thing is: the arabs/muslims (in sofar the overlap isn't total) think the same of their "culture", and believe it's only a matter of time before we succumb. And given the weakwilledness of many of the European elites, they may actually win this time. Or at best we'll have to do the emancipatory fights of the 20th century all over again. It's not as if this particular subset of migrants is coming for our superior culture after all...
Our perception differs then as I think most come for our superior culture (and economy and peace of course). A minority does not accept it though and we need compel them one way or another.
Quote from: garbon on January 05, 2016, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 05, 2016, 03:49:03 PM
Not many people in Sweden are prepared to come out and say that our culture is superior to Muslim culture. Many feminists (and certainly the biggest purely feminist party) think it is much more important not to offend the bearded guardians of Muslim order than to stand up for women.
So Sweden is a sad state, if what you say is true. Why should we care?
I'm just presenting a piece of information that may be relevant to the discussion.
Quote from: The Brain on January 05, 2016, 04:29:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 05, 2016, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 05, 2016, 03:49:03 PM
Not many people in Sweden are prepared to come out and say that our culture is superior to Muslim culture. Many feminists (and certainly the biggest purely feminist party) think it is much more important not to offend the bearded guardians of Muslim order than to stand up for women.
So Sweden is a sad state, if what you say is true. Why should we care?
I'm just presenting a piece of information that may be relevant to the discussion.
It appeared to me that you were just bringing up your irrelevant nation because you felt left out. :(
I suspect many Germans are not as culture-confident as Zanza.
Quote from: Legbiter on January 05, 2016, 04:18:31 PM
Languishbrahs with social skills who understand a bit of body language can enjoy the above on several levels. :lol:
I wouldn't say I have social skills, but it makes me think of this:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-mE01yLUDzTQ%2FVSx0D0uYQ-I%2FAAAAAAAAJv4%2FEK_eVZJyCFA%2Fs1600%2Fcabaret.jpg&hash=bd795ac06db7a034d05a39b7fb2a830122d3b8fb)
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 05, 2016, 04:20:40 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 05, 2016, 01:58:32 PM
the method reminds of the actions towards female protestors at Tahrir square.
But then again: we know that arabs -drunk or otherwise- generally don't have much respect for women, especially western women.
As I consider our culture of female emancipation and equality supreme, the question has to be how we can teach/convince/compel all members of our society (and that includes recent migrants) to adhere to these principles. The very fact that our culture is supreme should make an eventual adoption by a majority of migrants inevitable in my opinion. I am convinced that our culture is so powerful that it is irresistible for most. For the rest we need the police to show them their limits.
funny thing is: the arabs/muslims (in sofar the overlap isn't total) think the same of their "culture", and believe it's only a matter of time before we succumb. And given the weakwilledness of many of the European elites, they may actually win this time. Or at best we'll have to do the emancipatory fights of the 20th century all over again. It's not as if this particular subset of migrants is coming for our superior culture after all...
They are wrong.
A lot more Muslims gone secular and super integrated than there are Europeans who have gone Muslim.
Just remembered: pay attention to the actions of 'feminist' groups.
After all, and just to recall, many dozens of women were victims of violent sexual assault in Köln, Hamburg and Stuttgart.
Now, please tell me: WHERE is the feminist outrage at this event? The public condemnation by feminist groups? Their call-out against these attacks on women?
All I hear is a deafening silence.
Now, if it were WHITE men who did the same thing... oh boy. The 'feminists' would have exploded with indignation by now. The net would be all active about it.
Now, the reason why 'feminists' are silent should be obvious: these groups DO NOT CARE about women, nor about their well-being, their empowerment, advancement or anything of the sort.
Feminist groups exist for a reason: to break the mold of the traditional western society.
If they can act against (straight) white men, traditional families, societal norms or anything that has kept us going for centuries, they will go for it.
But if it does not undermine western society... well, they're out. And if many women are hurt in the process, they just don't care - because that was never their intent in the first place.
So never treat a 'Feminist' as someone that stands for Women's Rights. Because that is the last thing they stand for.
I'm a feminist and I disprove of that act.
There.
Quote from: Liep on January 05, 2016, 06:38:07 PM
I'm a feminist and I disprove of that act.
There.
Assuming it's even remotely like what's reported, of course.
Quote from: Martim Silva on January 05, 2016, 06:35:39 PM
Just remembered: pay attention to the actions of 'feminist' groups.
After all, and just to recall, many dozens of women were victims of violent sexual assault in Köln, Hamburg and Stuttgart.
Now, please tell me: WHERE is the feminist outrage at this event? The public condemnation by feminist groups? Their call-out against these attacks on women?
All I hear is a deafening silence.
How good is your German? Because I saw a lot of comments by feminists etc. in newspapers and on Facebook.
Quote from: Martim Silva on January 05, 2016, 06:35:39 PM
All I hear is a deafening silence.
You might want to see a doctor about that. Or a writer.
He probably should use some kind of text-to-speech device if he wants to hear what people are typing.
The authorities need to come down like a hammer on these scum.
Secondly, I predict that this story will gain traction in the conservative media in the US, and like the Paris terror attack, strengthen Trump.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
QuoteGermany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
The mayor of Cologne has summoned police for crisis talks after about 80 women reported sexual assaults and muggings by men on New Year's Eve.
The scale of the attacks on women at the city's central railway station has shocked Germany. About 1,000 drunk and aggressive young men were involved.
City police chief Wolfgang Albers called it "a completely new dimension of crime". The men were of Arab or North African appearance, he said.
Women were also targeted in Hamburg.
But the Cologne assaults - near the city's iconic cathedral - were the most serious, German media report. At least one woman was raped, and many were groped.
Most of the crimes reported to police were robberies. A volunteer policewoman was among those sexually molested.
The pretty Christmas market and medieval setting may look idyllic, but at Christmas and New Year the area around Cologne Cathedral is a notorious danger zone when it comes to pickpockets and theft.
Now the sexual harassment, and in one case rape, of dozens of women has shocked Germany.
What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.
Police in Hamburg are now reporting similar incidents on New Year's Eve in the party area of St Pauli. One politician says this is just the tip of the iceberg.
And there are real concerns about what will happen in February when the drunken street-parties of carnival season kick off.
Cologne will stage carnival events in February, with hundreds of thousands of revellers expected in the streets, as on New Year's Eve.
The police chief said "the assailants' behaviour is a real concern for me, also because of the carnival".
Police were deployed outside the central station because of the crowds on New Year's Eve, but failed to spot the many attacks, according to reports. There are also fears that a number of women did not report assaults.
'Monstrous' assaults
Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker said the attacks were "monstrous". "We cannot allow this to become a lawless area," she said, insisting that visitors could not come to the city fearing attack.
German Justice Minister Heiko Maas tweeted that "we won't tolerate these abhorrent assaults on women - all those responsible must be brought to justice".
One man described how his partner and 15-year-old daughter were surrounded by an enormous crowd outside the station and he was unable to help. "The attackers grabbed her and my partner's breasts and groped them between their legs."
A British woman visiting Cologne said fireworks had been thrown at her group by men who spoke neither German nor English. "They were trying to hug us, kiss us. One man stole my friend's bag," she told the BBC. "Another tried to get us into his 'private taxi'. I've been in scary and even life-threatening situations and I've never experienced anything like that."
The justice minister warned against linking the crimes to the issue of migrants and refugees.
Germany saw a record influx of migrants in 2015, which provoked an intense debate on immigration and marches by the anti-Islam Pegida movement.
Mr Maas said "the law does not discriminate regarding a person's origin or passport. All are equal before the law".
Cologne news website Koelner Stadt-Anzeiger says the suspects were already known to police because of frequent pickpocketing in and around Cologne central station.
Wider problem
In Hamburg several women told police that gangs of men had molested and robbed them on New Year's Eve on the Reeperbahn - a street known for its boisterous night life.
Some similar attacks were reported in Stuttgart.
A policeman who was outside Cologne station during the New Year's Eve trouble told the city's Express news website that he had detained eight suspects. "They were all asylum seekers, carrying copies of their residence certificates," he said.
However, there was no official confirmation that asylum seekers had been involved in the violence. Commentators in Germany were quick to urge people not to jump to conclusions.
German n-tv news says Cologne police are considering calling in reinforcements from other parts of Germany and installing extra surveillance cameras, with telescopic lenses.
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 05, 2016, 01:58:32 PM
the method reminds of the actions towards female protestors at Tahrir square.
But then again: we know that arabs -drunk or otherwise- generally don't have much respect for women, especially western women.
As I consider our culture of female emancipation and equality supreme, the question has to be how we can teach/convince/compel all members of our society (and that includes recent migrants) to adhere to these principles. The very fact that our culture is supreme should make an eventual adoption by a majority of migrants inevitable in my opinion. I am convinced that our culture is so powerful that it is irresistible for most. For the rest we need the police to show them their limits.
Well said and I think you are right; there may be some painful speed-bumps on the road of course.
I'm torn. On the one hand feminist do suck. On the other Martim silva in a rant about foreigners thread.
I wouldn't define feminism by the rantings of a tiny group of man-hating loons; in general feminism has been hugely beneficial.
Leftist feminists sure look like the description Martim gives though; they're not a tiny group, unfortunately. On the other hand, sometimes they wake up when confronted by other "ethnic" leftist feminists who do not want their white bourgeois woman feminism in their meetings to fight the white colonial patriarchy.
Apparently, Cologne's mayoress advised women to "keep strangers at arms length" and stay in close groups together.
I haven't decided if I should laugh or cry
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 05, 2016, 01:58:32 PM
the method reminds of the actions towards female protestors at Tahrir square.
But then again: we know that arabs -drunk or otherwise- generally don't have much respect for women, especially western women.
As I consider our culture of female emancipation and equality supreme, the question has to be how we can teach/convince/compel all members of our society (and that includes recent migrants) to adhere to these principles. The very fact that our culture is supreme should make an eventual adoption by a majority of migrants inevitable in my opinion. I am convinced that our culture is so powerful that it is irresistible for most. For the rest we need the police to show them their limits.
I agree, but Germans are not always Musterkinder, either, and we still have a ways to go. You only need to look at Facebook comments where "concerned citizens" repeatedly wish for females who don't share their views on how to deal with refugees to get raped by a Muslim, or that it's a shame they weren't in Cologne etc.
Currently there's ca. 90 reports of theft to the police about New Year's in Cologne, about a quarter of which also include sexual harrassment. Some commentators think it's a new, more aggressive variant of "Antanzen," where thieves, e.g. during carnival, New Year's or other places of drink/music "drunkenly" embrace/dance with a girl to distract her and nearly tip her over while another one (or the dancer himself) pickpockets her.
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2016, 04:06:20 AM
I agree, but Germans are not always Musterkinder, either, and we still have a ways to go. You only need to look at Facebook comments where "concerned citizens" repeatedly wish for females who don't share their views on how to deal with refugees to get raped by a Muslim, or that it's a shame they weren't in Cologne etc.
There's a radio show here who started calling up all the men who write stuff like that to female politicians or debaters and interview them about why they say that. It's fun and so so sad.
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2016, 04:06:20 AM
I agree, but Germans are not always Musterkinder, either, and we still have a ways to go. You only need to look at Facebook comments where "concerned citizens" repeatedly wish for females who don't share their views on how to deal with refugees to get raped by a Muslim, or that it's a shame they weren't in Cologne etc.
Oh, for sure. We got our fair share of idiots too. Otherwise Pegida or so couldn't exist. But I think the majority of people in our society embraces or at least accepts female equality.
Oh, absolutely.
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2016, 03:45:08 AM
Apparently, Cologne's mayoress advised women to "keep strangers at arms length" and stay in close groups together.
If these women were properly covered and had a male escort, these things wouldn't be happening. Silly infidels.
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2016, 03:45:08 AM
Apparently, Cologne's mayoress advised women to "keep strangers at arms length" and stay in close groups together.
I haven't decided if I should laugh or cry
Well that's probably a good idea while a situation is ongoing, assailants at large.
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2016, 03:45:08 AM
Apparently, Cologne's mayoress advised women to "keep strangers at arms length" and stay in close groups together.
I haven't decided if I should laugh or cry
I guess they really are coming for our women.
How remarkably unhelpful.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/06/after-wave-of-attacks-german-mayor-warns-women-to-keep-strangers-at-arms-length/
Quote
The mayor of Cologne on Wednesday offered some poorly received advice to female residents of her city after a wave of New Year's Eve attacks that shocked Germany.
"There's always the possibility of keeping a certain distance of more than an arm's length — that is to say to make sure yourself you don't look to be too close to people who are not known to you, and to whom you don't have a trusting relationship,
We've already discussed this in the immigration thread, conclusion was from the right wing: it's the feminists' fault, and from the left wing: it's the patriarchy's fault.
The rest of us have already discussed this topic in the other thread. :P
Quote from: Jacob on January 06, 2016, 02:48:42 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2016, 03:45:08 AM
Apparently, Cologne's mayoress advised women to "keep strangers at arms length" and stay in close groups together.
I haven't decided if I should laugh or cry
I guess they really are coming for our women.
Odd that Moslems would be trying to turn Europe into India.
Quote from: Liep on January 06, 2016, 06:20:01 PM
We've already discussed this in the immigration thread, conclusion was from the right wing: it's the feminists' fault, and from the left wing: it's the patriarchy's fault.
And now Tim's wayward thread has been assimilated into the mainstream.
Reading about the Köln attacks is very depressing. The report of an assailant screaming "I'm a Syrian, you have to treat me nice, Merkel invited me." was a nice touch. The police was completely overworked, unable to help victims because new ones constantly came forth unable to detain attackers because of shouts of crying and people screaming for help from inside the mob made stopping attacks a priority.
Basically the mob did whatever they wanted to because of power of numbers. How a city as big as Köln failed to get this hour long attack under control is beyond comprehension.
:(
Some vicious non-migrant drug dealers they were!
Quote from: Liep on January 06, 2016, 06:20:01 PM
We've already discussed this in the immigration thread, conclusion was from the right wing: it's the leftists' and/or feminists' fault, and from the left wing: it's the Colonialist White Capitalist patriarchy's fault.
Fixed! :P
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 09:25:50 AM
That said, even 1000 would be just 1/10 percent of the migrants that came to Germany this year
Sorry but this kind of apologetic narrative is getting really ridiculous. There are what, 1000 times, 10,000 times, 100,000 times more native Germans in Germany than there are immigrants? But this kind of mass rape events do not happen involving native Germans, do they? If I had a friend, who stole from me only 1 out of 10 times I invite him into my home, I would not invite him - no matter the remaining 9 times out of 10. It seems bonkers to me that there is this implied conclusion that as long as it is a minority of immigrants who engage in unacceptable (yet clearly culturally influenced) behaviour, there is no problem to talk of.
Quote from: Legbiter on January 05, 2016, 04:18:31 PM
In lighter news, UNHCR posted an article on Germans "adopting" refugees into their homes and although the article itself is a cloying twaddle of unctious flattery of the gutmensch kind one photo is accidently rather amusing.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd2nj4n4ep9vg2s.cloudfront.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F12%2FIbrahim_IP.jpeg&hash=c87b52f83e4d092f9ab6d591f2eb65d45dec722b)
http://tracks.unhcr.org/2015/12/the-germans-welcoming-refugees-into-their-homes/ (http://tracks.unhcr.org/2015/12/the-germans-welcoming-refugees-into-their-homes/)
Languishbrahs with social skills who understand a bit of body language can enjoy the above on several levels. :lol:
Hey, cuckolding fetish is as healthy expression of one's sexuality as any other. :P
Following the events in Cologne, Slovakia has said that it will not accept any Muslim refugees as they can't be integrated into European society. Also, that they will give money for protection of the EU borders, but not for funds that would go into humanitarian aid for refugees.
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 04:24:23 PM
Following the events in Cologne, Slovakia has said that it will not accept any Muslim refugees as they can't be integrated into European society.
It's amazing how they are so sure of the religion of the attackers, and that the attacks prove something essential about the people of that religion - given that, as I understand, not a one of 'em has been arrested yet, let alone convicted. ;)
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 12:51:14 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 09:25:50 AM
That said, even 1000 would be just 1/10 percent of the migrants that came to Germany this year
Sorry but this kind of apologetic narrative is getting really ridiculous. There are what, 1000 times, 10,000 times, 100,000 times more native Germans in Germany than there are immigrants? But this kind of mass rape events do not happen involving native Germans, do they? If I had a friend, who stole from me only 1 out of 10 times I invite him into my home, I would not invite him - no matter the remaining 9 times out of 10. It seems bonkers to me that there is this implied conclusion that as long as it is a minority of immigrants who engage in unacceptable (yet clearly culturally influenced) behaviour, there is no problem to talk of.
That wasn't my intention. Guilt is individual, not collective in Germany. We must identify and punish (by deportation) those that commit crimes. But we should not hold a heterogeneous group of a million individuals responsible for the actions of some. That's not going to solve the problem and is not compatible with our values. Rule of law must be protected at all costs and that includes assignment of individual guilt. Which makes the failure of the police operations even worse as it will be hard to assign individual guilt in a court in this case.
Quote from: Malthus on January 07, 2016, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 04:24:23 PM
Following the events in Cologne, Slovakia has said that it will not accept any Muslim refugees as they can't be integrated into European society.
It's amazing how they are so sure of the religion of the attackers, and that the attacks prove something essential about the people of that religion - given that, as I understand, not a one of 'em has been arrested yet, let alone convicted. ;)
Apparently this also happened in Helsinki with the police noting that they were tipped off about asylum seekers planning to sexually harass women. In the two filed complaints, the suspects were asylum seekers and have been arrested.
Are these people on some sort of forum?
http://news.yahoo.com/unprecedented-sex-harassment-helsinki-police-194548532.html
Quote
Unprecedented sex harassment in Helsinki at New Year: police
Finnish police reported Thursday an unusually high level of sexual harassment in Helsinki on New Year's Eve and said they had been tipped off about plans by groups of asylum seekers to sexually harass women.
Helsinki deputy police chief Ilkka Koskimaki told AFP: "There hasn't been this kind of harassment on previous New Year's Eves or other occasions for that matter... This is a completely new phenomenon in Helsinki."
Security guards hired to patrol the city on New Year's Eve told police there had been "widespread sexual harassment" at a central square where around 20,000 people had gathered for celebrations.
Three sexual assaults allegedly took place at Helsinki's central railway station on New Year's Eve, where around 1,000 mostly Iraqi asylum seekers had converged.
"Police have... received information about three cases of sexual assault, of which two have been filed as complaints," Helsinki police said in a statement.
"The suspects were asylum seekers. The three were caught and taken into custody on the spot," Koskimaki told AFP.
Police said they had increased their preparedness "to an exceptional level" in Helsinki for New Year's Eve after being tipped off about possible problems.
"Ahead of New Year's Eve, the police caught wind of information that asylum seekers in the capital region possibly had similar plans to what the men gathered in Cologne's railway station have been reported to have had," police said in a statement.
Dozens of apparently coordinated sexual assaults against women took place on New Year's Eve in the western German city of Cologne.
Cologne police said they had received 120 criminal complaints by Thursday and quoted witnesses as saying that groups of 20-30 young men "who appeared to be of Arab origin" had surrounded victims, assaulted them and in several cases robbed them.
Koskimaki said police did not see a link between the Cologne and Helsinki incidents.
Shortly before New Year's Eve, Finnish police also arrested six Iraqis at an asylum residency centre in Kirkkonummi, around 30 kilometres (19 miles) west of Helsinki, suspected of "publicly inciting criminal behaviour". They were released on January 2.
According to Koskimaki, the arrests were linked to the information police received in the run-up to New Year's Eve.
In November, Finnish authorities said around 10 asylum seekers were suspected of rapes, among the more than 1,000 rapes reported to police in 2015.
Quote from: Liep on January 07, 2016, 05:10:41 PM
Are these people on some sort of forum?
I tried seeking asylum from Languish, but no other forum would have me. :(
Quote from: mongers on January 07, 2016, 05:16:25 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 07, 2016, 05:10:41 PM
Are these people on some sort of forum?
I tried seeking asylum from Languish, but no other forum would have me. :(
And we still want to deport you. :mad:
Quote from: Zanza on January 07, 2016, 04:34:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 12:51:14 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 09:25:50 AM
That said, even 1000 would be just 1/10 percent of the migrants that came to Germany this year
Sorry but this kind of apologetic narrative is getting really ridiculous. There are what, 1000 times, 10,000 times, 100,000 times more native Germans in Germany than there are immigrants? But this kind of mass rape events do not happen involving native Germans, do they? If I had a friend, who stole from me only 1 out of 10 times I invite him into my home, I would not invite him - no matter the remaining 9 times out of 10. It seems bonkers to me that there is this implied conclusion that as long as it is a minority of immigrants who engage in unacceptable (yet clearly culturally influenced) behaviour, there is no problem to talk of.
That wasn't my intention. Guilt is individual, not collective in Germany. We must identify and punish (by deportation) those that commit crimes. But we should not hold a heterogeneous group of a million individuals responsible for the actions of some. That's not going to solve the problem and is not compatible with our values. Rule of law must be protected at all costs and that includes assignment of individual guilt. Which makes the failure of the police operations even worse as it will be hard to assign individual guilt in a court in this case.
Rule of law and presumption of innocence are all concepts of internal legal systems - they do not extend to immigration policy. There is no inherent right of a foreigner to settle in your country.
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 04:25:58 PM
Our perception differs then as I think most come for our superior culture (and economy and peace of course). A minority does not accept it though and we need compel them one way or another.
They don't care about culture, or they would be willing to settle in any other place in Europe. They go to Germany because they want money/jobs.
Because European cultures are all the same?
Quote from: Iormlund on January 07, 2016, 05:49:08 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2016, 04:25:58 PM
Our perception differs then as I think most come for our superior culture (and economy and peace of course). A minority does not accept it though and we need compel them one way or another.
They don't care about culture, or they would be willing to settle in any other place in Europe. They go to Germany because they want money/jobs.
They want to be free.
Quote from: garbon on January 07, 2016, 05:51:59 PM
Because European cultures are all the same?
When compared to the Middle East? Yes. Obviously there are minor differences. For example Germans would say Spaniards are noisy and we'd say they are boring. Both are true.
But we're talking about basic human rights here. Equality or freedom of the press are hardly a German exclusive.
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 05:28:57 PM
Rule of law and presumption of innocence are all concepts of internal legal systems - they do not extend to immigration policy. There is no inherent right of a foreigner to settle in your country.
Your point being what? German criminal law applies to all humans in Germany's jurisdiction, no matter what their residential status is and what Germany's current immigration policy is. It's completely irrelevant whether you are a German, a legal migrant, a visitor or an asylum seeker.
Quote from: Iormlund on January 07, 2016, 06:00:55 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 07, 2016, 05:51:59 PM
Because European cultures are all the same?
When compared to the Middle East? Yes. Obviously there are minor differences. For example Germans would say Spaniards are noisy and we'd say they are boring. Both are true.
But we're talking about basic human rights here. Equality or freedom of the press are hardly a German exclusive.
That's fine enough but again that doesn't mean that they would want to go anywhere. Now clearly I wasn't escaping persecution but when I wanted to move to Europe, Spain wasn't on my list of places I wanted to move to.
At any rate, I'm also not sure that wanting to go where jobs is a sign of something nefarious.
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 05:28:57 PM
Rule of law and presumption of innocence are all concepts of internal legal systems - they do not extend to immigration policy. There is no inherent right of a foreigner to settle in your country.
Oooh, you crossed a line there mister!
Quote from: garbon on January 07, 2016, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on January 07, 2016, 06:00:55 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 07, 2016, 05:51:59 PM
Because European cultures are all the same?
When compared to the Middle East? Yes. Obviously there are minor differences. For example Germans would say Spaniards are noisy and we'd say they are boring. Both are true.
But we're talking about basic human rights here. Equality or freedom of the press are hardly a German exclusive.
That's fine enough but again that doesn't mean that they would want to go anywhere. Now clearly I wasn't escaping persecution but when I wanted to move to Europe, Spain wasn't on my list of places I wanted to move to.
At any rate, I'm also not sure that wanting to go where jobs is a sign of something nefarious.
I didn't say it was nefarious. I moved to Germany for the very same reasons not long ago.
In any case you are making my point. They are not going there to enjoy Western human rights. They are going to Germany in particular for very good reasons: they'll be able to make a better living there.
Quote from: Martinus link=topic=12981.msg941166#msg941166
Rule of law and presumption of innocence are all concepts of internal legal systems - they do not extend to immigration policy. There is no inherent right of a foreigner to settle in your country.
Two more thoughts about this:
1) Rule of law extends to everything the German state does, including immigration policy.
2) Our constitution does not give foreigners (except EU citizens) an inherent right to settle in Germany. It does give an inherent right to asylum though if you fulfill certain conditions and the process to check the conditions obviously follows rule of law as well.
Quote from: Iormlund on January 07, 2016, 06:22:27 PM
I didn't say it was nefarious. I moved to Germany for the very same reasons not long ago.
In any case you are making my point. They are not going there to enjoy Western human rights. They are going to Germany in particular for very good reasons: they'll be able to make a better living there.
One follows from.the other: a well working economy could be found closer to home in the UAE. But they wouldn't get the same human rights th here as in Europe so they rather come here.
Quote from: Zanza on January 07, 2016, 06:04:05 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 05:28:57 PM
Rule of law and presumption of innocence are all concepts of internal legal systems - they do not extend to immigration policy. There is no inherent right of a foreigner to settle in your country.
Your point being what? German criminal law applies to all humans in Germany's jurisdiction, no matter what their residential status is and what Germany's current immigration policy is. It's completely irrelevant whether you are a German, a legal migrant, a visitor or an asylum seeker.
But this is not about German criminal law but about German immigration policy. I am not saying that it would be the right solution, but deciding to deport or not to accept immigrants (coming from a certain country, culture or religion, for example) is not a criminal law measure and thus does not have to meet the same standard as you refer to.
Quote from: Zanza on January 07, 2016, 06:24:07 PM
It does give an inherent right to asylum
This seems... unwise.
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 01:45:56 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 07, 2016, 06:24:07 PM
It does give an inherent right to asylum
This seems... unwise.
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
QuoteArticle 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 01:55:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 01:45:56 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 07, 2016, 06:24:07 PM
It does give an inherent right to asylum
This seems... unwise.
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
QuoteArticle 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Sane countries don't make that document law.
Quote from: Malthus on January 07, 2016, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 04:24:23 PM
Following the events in Cologne, Slovakia has said that it will not accept any Muslim refugees as they can't be integrated into European society.
It's amazing how they are so sure of the religion of the attackers, and that the attacks prove something essential about the people of that religion - given that, as I understand, not a one of 'em has been arrested yet, let alone convicted. ;)
This is the exact counterproductive head-in-the-sand BS from the left that's going to give the reigns of power to the far right. Maybe not in Canada but in Europe most certainly.
It gives the impression that liberalism is by necessity clueless and weak, which it does not have to be at all.
I think it stems from the absolutely wrong view that desire for modern human rights and advanced social constructs are somehow born with every human and are the default state of things. THEY ARE NOT.
I mean look at the struggle nowadays in the First World for equal treatment of homosexuals, and in many places still, even women. The very same fights were fought just a generation or two ago to consider women the same level of human beings as men.
The societies we live in the developed world are extremely fragile and fairly new constructs.
The assumption that everyone who is a newcomer to these societies will instantly recognise their superiority in creating a more liveable environment for the individuals is seriously wrong.
Modern society expects more level of compromise and voluntary reduction of privileges from privileged groups than what is considered the heatlhy norm in pretty much the rest of the world, and even by a sizeable minority in our own countries.
Lets realise: this is where all the "privilege talk" applies most: these men from third world cultures had HUGE privileges over their female brethren.
How can we realistically expect to have ALL of them immediately de-announce their physical and legal superiority over women, when for their entire previous life they were told, taught, and shown of, the exact opposite being the good and rightous (not to mention personally highly beneficial) way for them?
Of course some of them will be totally unable to adopt.
But the answer isn't for us to adopt defensive mechanisms and worsen our standards of living while in a 100 years their old ways slowly give way to European standards. The way is to establish our ways as very strict values upon which everyone who wishes to stay must base their lives on.
Those who showcase things that are clearly against our basic values, from mass-raping to covering their women from head to toe as precious livestock, should be made to conform to the values and laws (eg. men considering females their equals) they want to reap the benefits of.
Those migrants who are able to understand this, and in fact are looking to adopt such a way of life should not only be accepted but actively helped to settle and integrate. Those who show a desire to continue their old ways while enjoying the economic benefit of the more modern societies should be rejected and sent back.
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 01:55:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 01:45:56 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 07, 2016, 06:24:07 PM
It does give an inherent right to asylum
This seems... unwise.
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
QuoteArticle 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
counter with this:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermann_und_die_Brandstifter
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Raisers_(play))
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 01:43:20 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 07, 2016, 06:04:05 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 05:28:57 PM
Rule of law and presumption of innocence are all concepts of internal legal systems - they do not extend to immigration policy. There is no inherent right of a foreigner to settle in your country.
Your point being what? German criminal law applies to all humans in Germany's jurisdiction, no matter what their residential status is and what Germany's current immigration policy is. It's completely irrelevant whether you are a German, a legal migrant, a visitor or an asylum seeker.
But this is not about German criminal law but about German immigration policy. I am not saying that it would be the right solution, but deciding to deport or not to accept immigrants (coming from a certain country, culture or religion, for example) is not a criminal law measure and thus does not have to meet the same standard as you refer to.
I thought we were talking about the recent cases of sexual assaults and robbery in Cologne. That's criminal law.
But if you are talking about immigration policy in general, rule of law principles forbid broad group exclusion there as well. The right to asylum in Germany is an individual human right.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 08, 2016, 05:25:49 AM
counter with this:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermann_und_die_Brandstifter
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Raisers_(play))
You're right - the far right have suddenly discovered their feminist side to justify their xenophobia, and we must be careful about not letting them get too strong. :P
I agree with Zanza that the perpetrators of these events need to be found and punished according to German law and to make sure that such incidents of large groups of men targeting women won't repeat. Putting a whole group of people, defined by ethnicity, religion or political affiliation, under suspicion and/or surveillance is not the solution. Having a different world view, even one that runs counter to German societal norms and values is not a crime in and of itself - otherwise the "concerned citizens" protesting every Monday in Dresden would long have been put behind bars.
Quote from: garbon on January 07, 2016, 05:08:37 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 07, 2016, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 04:24:23 PM
Following the events in Cologne, Slovakia has said that it will not accept any Muslim refugees as they can't be integrated into European society.
It's amazing how they are so sure of the religion of the attackers, and that the attacks prove something essential about the people of that religion - given that, as I understand, not a one of 'em has been arrested yet, let alone convicted. ;)
Apparently this also happened in Helsinki with the police noting that they were tipped off about asylum seekers planning to sexually harass women. In the two filed complaints, the suspects were asylum seekers and have been arrested.
This was proven false. The main news agency Yle misquoted our Minister of the Interior and claimed that there was some kind of larger plan in the works. However, nothing of the sort has been proven, there were no large crowd of immigrants gathered at the Central Railway Station (as was claimed), and the two confirmed harassment cases were from different areas of the city and unrelated to each other.
This graphic sums it up rather nicely.
Green: "Leave alone because innocent"
Red: "Identify, investigate, prosecute, punish/deport because criminal assholes"
Circles: "Refugees" / "New Years Eve Perpetrators" - "Men" / "New Years Eve Perpetrators"
Top right: "Possible Cross-section (currently undetermined)"
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12507214_1285645588128298_4429963040237456315_n.jpg?oh=1fb2c7cb501ccdfdc7acc25363c89b30&oe=56FFDA07&__gda__=1459344706_794faef41203f5966138162e2e257e6d)
Still surprising that police were caught so off guard; Cologne, being one of the carnival capitals in Germany, should have experience with handling large crowds of drunks.
Quote from: Solmyr on January 08, 2016, 06:00:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on January 07, 2016, 05:08:37 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 07, 2016, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 04:24:23 PM
Following the events in Cologne, Slovakia has said that it will not accept any Muslim refugees as they can't be integrated into European society.
It's amazing how they are so sure of the religion of the attackers, and that the attacks prove something essential about the people of that religion - given that, as I understand, not a one of 'em has been arrested yet, let alone convicted. ;)
Apparently this also happened in Helsinki with the police noting that they were tipped off about asylum seekers planning to sexually harass women. In the two filed complaints, the suspects were asylum seekers and have been arrested.
This was proven false. The main news agency Yle misquoted our Minister of the Interior and claimed that there was some kind of larger plan in the works. However, nothing of the sort has been proven, there were no large crowd of immigrants gathered at the Central Railway Station (as was claimed), and the two confirmed harassment cases were from different areas of the city and unrelated to each other.
Ah good to know.
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 05:54:41 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 08, 2016, 05:25:49 AM
counter with this:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermann_und_die_Brandstifter
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Raisers_(play))
You're right - the far right have suddenly discovered their feminist side to justify their xenophobia, and we must be careful about not letting them get too strong. :P
this stopped being an extreme-right thing quite a while ago, despite the best efforts of the leftist gutmensch.
At the moment yes. But if the pushing continues for too long, it will be a far-right issue again, except on far bigger proportions.
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 12:54:06 PMHey, cuckolding fetish is as healthy expression of one's sexuality as any other. :P
The kraut kind and sensitive person is not entirely happy though, crossed legs looking into the middle distance, trying to beat back the bad thoughts creeping up on him with happy thoughts about all the praise his progressive social circle will shower him with. :lmfao:
Reuters has this on the police investigation.
QuoteAsylum seekers were among those involved in the violence on New Year's Eve in Cologne, the German interior ministry said on Friday.
Ministry spokesman Tobias Plate told a news conference that federal police had identified 31 people by name who played a role in the violence, 18 of whom were in the process of seeking asylum in Germany.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-assaults-idUSKBN0UM0U420160108 (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-assaults-idUSKBN0UM0U420160108)
Quote from: Legbiter on January 08, 2016, 07:12:01 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 12:54:06 PMHey, cuckolding fetish is as healthy expression of one's sexuality as any other. :P
The kraut kind and sensitive person is not entirely happy though, crossed legs looking into the middle distance, trying to beat back the bad thoughts creeping up on him with happy thoughts about all the praise his progressive social circle will shower him with. :lmfao:
This interpretation ignores the fact there's lots of space between the woman and the Arab, while the two men's legs and feet are brushed up against each other.
He looks more a low-testosterone kraut instead of gay IMO.
For a badass, check out this vid of a doorman who witnessed the rape & pillage in Cologne and tried his best to help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9TOdMzOH1U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9TOdMzOH1U)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12088341/Two-teenage-girls-gang-raped-by-four-Syrian-nationals-in-southern-Germany.html
Quote from: Legbiter on January 08, 2016, 07:16:50 AM
Reuters has this on the police investigation.
QuoteAsylum seekers were among those involved in the violence on New Year's Eve in Cologne, the German interior ministry said on Friday.
Ministry spokesman Tobias Plate told a news conference that federal police had identified 31 people by name who played a role in the violence, 18 of whom were in the process of seeking asylum in Germany.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-assaults-idUSKBN0UM0U420160108 (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-assaults-idUSKBN0UM0U420160108)
Well, if they're found guilty of the crime then they should be sent to jail or deported (not sure what current deportation rules are, but German law generally allows to deport foreigners convicted of crimes).
Quote from: Legbiter on January 08, 2016, 07:36:52 AM
He looks more a low-testosterone kraut instead of gay IMO.
For a badass, check out this vid of a doorman who witnessed the rape & pillage in Cologne and tried his best to help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9TOdMzOH1U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9TOdMzOH1U)
He looks like a typical closet case to me.
Quote from: Tamas on January 08, 2016, 08:00:23 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12088341/Two-teenage-girls-gang-raped-by-four-Syrian-nationals-in-southern-Germany.html
Horrible, and again - the German criminal system will take care of it. The suspects are Syrians, but have been living in Germany/Switzerland/Netherlands for a long time:
QuoteThe suspects are not asylum-seekers. The 21-year-old man and his brother are long-term German residents, while the two 14-year-olds live in Switzerland and the Netherlands.
Prosecutors say they do not believe the incident is connected to the outbreak of sexual assaults against women in Cologne and other German cities over the New Year.
What penalties are the rapists/attackers in both cases likely to get from the German criminal justice system?
Depending on case, 2 (or 5 in severe cases) - 15 years.
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 08:08:43 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 08, 2016, 08:00:23 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12088341/Two-teenage-girls-gang-raped-by-four-Syrian-nationals-in-southern-Germany.html
Horrible, and again - the German criminal system will take care of it. The suspects are Syrians, but have been living in Germany/Switzerland/Netherlands for a long time:
QuoteThe suspects are not asylum-seekers. The 21-year-old man and his brother are long-term German residents, while the two 14-year-olds live in Switzerland and the Netherlands.
Prosecutors say they do not believe the incident is connected to the outbreak of sexual assaults against women in Cologne and other German cities over the New Year.
If they are that well integrated that changes everything. :)
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 08:13:44 AM
Depending on case, 2 (or 5 in severe cases) - 15 years.
This is the actual sentence or sentence after taking into account a routine early release for "good behavior"?
Also, I am sorry if this has been already mentioned - how many of the Cologne attackers are already in the police custody?
It makes sense to mention, IMHO, so that people reading the article don't think they recently arrived with the refugee treks.
Can't say anything about the circumstances of the case, but let's not pretend that rape or sexual crimes are only committed by badly integrated foreigners of (maybe) Muslim persuasion.
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 08:17:50 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 08:13:44 AM
Depending on case, 2 (or 5 in severe cases) - 15 years.
This is the actual sentence or sentence after taking into account a routine early release for "good behavior"?
Please ask a German defense lawyer or criminal judge.
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 08:17:50 AM
Also, I am sorry if this has been already mentioned - how many of the Cologne attackers are already in the police custody?
Currently there are 31 known suspects for the federal police, 18 of which are asylum seekers, though there are no charges of sexual harrassment/rape against the asylum seekers. Among them are 9 Algerians, 5 Moroccans, 5 Iranians, 4 Syrians, 1 Iraqi, 1 American, 2 Germans.
The state police has 19 suspects.
Several suspects were found out by tracking the stolen cell phones.
On an unrelated note - can the church of scientology operate freely in Germany?
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 08:26:53 AM
On an unrelated note
:rolleyes:
Quotecan the church of scientology operate freely in Germany?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/hubbard-s-church-unconstitutional-germany-prepares-to-ban-scientology-a-522052.html
They're under monitoring by Domestic Intelligence services, similar to Islamist organizations.
Ah, so the claim that under German constitution it is not possible to discriminate on the grounds of religion wasn't quite true, was it?
For all my dislike of Scientology, Islam seems much more harmful...
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 08:18:56 AM
It makes sense to mention, IMHO, so that people reading the article don't think they recently arrived with the refugee treks.
I agree. I actually failed to read that. Would not have posted the article if I have, as it has no connection to this topic. Blame sensationalist article titles.
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 08:31:04 AM
Ah, so the claim that under German constitution it is not possible to discriminate on the grounds of religion wasn't quite true, was it?
It's not recogninzed as religion in Germany. You can find one of the main reasons here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Scientology_as_a_commercial_or_criminal_enterprise
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 08:34:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 08:31:04 AM
Ah, so the claim that under German constitution it is not possible to discriminate on the grounds of religion wasn't quite true, was it?
It's not recogninzed as religion in Germany. You can find one of the main reasons here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Scientology_as_a_commercial_or_criminal_enterprise
I am not sure if you can say you don't discriminate on religious grounds if a state official can actually determine if you are a religion in the first place. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 08:37:06 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 08:34:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 08:31:04 AM
Ah, so the claim that under German constitution it is not possible to discriminate on the grounds of religion wasn't quite true, was it?
It's not recogninzed as religion in Germany. You can find one of the main reasons here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Scientology_as_a_commercial_or_criminal_enterprise
I am not sure if you can say you don't discriminate on religious grounds if a state official can actually determine if you are a religion in the first place. :lol:
It works for Saudi Arabia :P
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 08:37:06 AM
I am not sure if you can say you don't discriminate on religious grounds if a state official can actually determine if you are a religion in the first place. :lol:
IMHO it makes sense to have legal safeguards so that Mart's Church of Goatse can't claim discrimination if their ritual of public blow jobs is banned from public. Freedom of religion is a constitutional basic right, and taking steps like against Scientology is a huge legal process with many hurdles.
And it is mainly about their tax status, not about their actual religious practice. And it aims at the organisation, i.e. the legal persona, not the individual members. There is no comparable legal entity for Muslims in Germany.
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 08:18:56 AM
It makes sense to mention, IMHO, so that people reading the article don't think they recently arrived with the refugee treks.
What you are admitting - although not realizing - is that the integration process of Mulisms hasn't worked for years.
And yet, we are to believe that these millions of new arrived young men from the harshest lands in the Middle East will actually end up integrating nicely, even when those that came years earlier - and with less pressure - did not?
The sheer stupidity of the gutmenschen is appaling :face:
Quote from: Martim Silva on January 08, 2016, 12:35:00 PM
What you are admitting - although not realizing - is that the integration process of Mulisms hasn't worked for years.
I think extrapolating that from the Telegraph story is a bit far fetched. Are there badly integrated migrants and/or Muslims? Yes.
But I disagree with pointing to every case where a (possible) Muslim does something bad and screaming "THE MUSLIMS" without knowing the background of the story. Victims and accused knew each other; apparently there was first consensual exchange of caresses that then turned into rape (a scenario that, sad as it is, is not exclusive to Muslims or people from the Middle East). Police have said that the nationality of the accused has little relevance in this case. They have not commented on the nationality of the girls. It hasn't even been confirmed in the dozen or so news stories on this that the accused are indeed Muslims or if they're part of the Christian Syrian diaspora.
Quote from: Martim Silva on January 08, 2016, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 08:18:56 AM
It makes sense to mention, IMHO, so that people reading the article don't think they recently arrived with the refugee treks.
What you are admitting - although not realizing - is that the integration process of Mulisms hasn't worked for years.
And yet, we are to believe that these millions of new arrived young men from the harshest lands in the Middle East will actually end up integrating nicely, even when those that came years earlier - and with less pressure - did not?
The sheer stupidity of the gutmenschen is appaling :face:
err....my first girlfriend was Iranian.
I spent the new year getting drunk with a bunch of nationalities, including an Azerbaijani, a Turk and a Pakistani.
Through the years I've known many muslims who were pretty damn integrated.
It's funny how ignorant right wingers can be about muslims in Europe.
The reason many majority muslim areas are considered dodgy is not because of any shariah law nonsense, its because they're former industrial cities gone to hell- and as anybody with half a brain knows you don't go walking around a dodgy part of Liverpool in a Man Utd shirt (i.e. white guy in majority brown guy area- obvious outsider, ripe for alcohol fuelled, ultra violence medium, entertainment).
It's pretty offensive that you say "Muslims aren't that bad, they're actually chavs!".
It always comes back to closing the coal mines with Tyr.
QuoteIt always comes back to closing the coal mines with Tyr.
It was a very big deal. Up there with the wars in the changes it brought.
Quote from: The Brain on January 08, 2016, 01:21:20 PM
It's pretty offensive that you say "Muslims aren't that bad, they're actually chavs!".
But its true. The problem with the rough muslim towns is that they're TOO integrated.
Give me a religious guy in full traditional dress over a track suit bottomed, stupid haircutted, gobshite any day.
This isn't all muslims of course. There are lots of them who grew up in decent areas too of course. But the way migration worked to the UK did lead to the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis tending to be from the more uneducated segments of society than the Indians.
Quote from: Tyr on January 08, 2016, 01:39:26 PM
QuoteIt always comes back to closing the coal mines with Tyr.
It was a very big deal. Up there with the wars in the changes it brought.
Quote from: The Brain on January 08, 2016, 01:21:20 PM
It's pretty offensive that you say "Muslims aren't that bad, they're actually chavs!".
But its true. The problem with the rough muslim towns is that they're TOO integrated.
Give me a religious guy in full traditional dress over a track suit bottomed, stupid haircutted, gobshite any day.
Too integrated into the lumpenproletariat codes that is. ;)
So for instance Salafists are to be preferred to chavs according to you? :lmfao:
Not to mention some mix both, religious dress and ugly sneakers: worst of both worlds!
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 08, 2016, 01:53:31 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 08, 2016, 01:39:26 PM
QuoteIt always comes back to closing the coal mines with Tyr.
It was a very big deal. Up there with the wars in the changes it brought.
Quote from: The Brain on January 08, 2016, 01:21:20 PM
It's pretty offensive that you say "Muslims aren't that bad, they're actually chavs!".
But its true. The problem with the rough muslim towns is that they're TOO integrated.
Give me a religious guy in full traditional dress over a track suit bottomed, stupid haircutted, gobshite any day.
Too integrated into the lumpenproletariat codes that is. ;)
So for instance Salafists are to be preferred to chavs according to you? :lmfao:
Not to mention some mix both, religious dress and ugly sneakers: worst of both worlds!
Assuming a regular religious muslim of course. Not an extremist. If I see a suicide belt I'm running ;)
Quote from: Syt on January 08, 2016, 08:43:13 AM
IMHO it makes sense to have legal safeguards so that Mart's Church of Goatse can't claim discrimination if their ritual of public blow jobs is banned from public.
That's illegal in Germany? Prudes.
Quote from: Tyr on January 08, 2016, 01:57:02 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 08, 2016, 01:53:31 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 08, 2016, 01:39:26 PM
QuoteIt always comes back to closing the coal mines with Tyr.
It was a very big deal. Up there with the wars in the changes it brought.
Quote from: The Brain on January 08, 2016, 01:21:20 PM
It's pretty offensive that you say "Muslims aren't that bad, they're actually chavs!".
But its true. The problem with the rough muslim towns is that they're TOO integrated.
Give me a religious guy in full traditional dress over a track suit bottomed, stupid haircutted, gobshite any day.
Too integrated into the lumpenproletariat codes that is. ;)
So for instance Salafists are to be preferred to chavs according to you? :lmfao:
Not to mention some mix both, religious dress and ugly sneakers: worst of both worlds!
Assuming a regular religious muslim of course. Not an extremist. If I see a suicide belt I'm running ;)
What about the quietist Salafist types (Purist and/or Activists not Jihadis)? ;)
"In the long run, Islam will be purified and all the West will be islamic insh'Allah. Violence is not needed. Allahu Akbar!".
The leftist press -at least over here- must hate the fact that this has gained the attention that it did and that the perps are of the descent they are, going by the size of the can of islam-cuddlers they opened all over their opinion pages. Doesn't fit in the worldview where westerners are the fount of all the world's evil.
I'm not sure that Martim Silva should be allowed into Europe. I mean if are worried about sexual assaults...
Quote from: Razgovory on January 08, 2016, 02:12:45 PM
I'm not sure that Martim Silva should be allowed into Europe. I mean if are worried about sexual assaults...
Sorry, but you don't get to decide who is or isn't allowed into Europe.
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 02:45:48 PM
Sorry, but you don't get to decide who is or isn't allowed into Europe.
Oh he most certainly can. Granted his decisions may not carry much weight.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 08, 2016, 02:01:43 PMWhat about the quietist Salafist types (Purist and/or Activists not Jihadis)? ;)
"In the long run, Islam will be purified and all the West will be islamic insh'Allah. Violence is not needed. Allahu Akbar!".
well yeah, who wouldn't prefer some quiet religious people over hostile youth? isn't the main argument against muslims that they blow people up? if they're non-violent, what's the problem?
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2016, 02:56:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 02:45:48 PM
Sorry, but you don't get to decide who is or isn't allowed into Europe.
Oh he most certainly can. Granted his decisions may not carry much weight.
As an American they probably carry more weight then A euro :lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on January 08, 2016, 06:23:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2016, 02:56:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2016, 02:45:48 PM
Sorry, but you don't get to decide who is or isn't allowed into Europe.
Oh he most certainly can. Granted his decisions may not carry much weight.
As an American they probably carry more weight then A euro :lol:
Obesity is a disease.
QuoteArticle 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Looks like Europe is stuck with Martim for the time being.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 08, 2016, 05:36:09 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 08, 2016, 02:01:43 PMWhat about the quietist Salafist types (Purist and/or Activists not Jihadis)? ;)
"In the long run, Islam will be purified and all the West will be islamic insh'Allah. Violence is not needed. Allahu Akbar!".
well yeah, who wouldn't prefer some quiet religious people over hostile youth? isn't the main argument against muslims that they blow people up? if they're non-violent, what's the problem?
"Quiet" religious types pushing their so-called religion all the time and doing some recruiting by turning chavs into jihadis with their taqqiya skills are a problem too. The line is not easily drawn as you think.
You're not quiet if you preach.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 09, 2016, 02:56:13 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on January 08, 2016, 05:36:09 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 08, 2016, 02:01:43 PMWhat about the quietist Salafist types (Purist and/or Activists not Jihadis)? ;)
"In the long run, Islam will be purified and all the West will be islamic insh'Allah. Violence is not needed. Allahu Akbar!".
well yeah, who wouldn't prefer some quiet religious people over hostile youth? isn't the main argument against muslims that they blow people up? if they're non-violent, what's the problem?
"Quiet" religious types pushing their so-called religion all the time and doing some recruiting by turning chavs into jihadis with their taqqiya skills are a problem too. The line is not easily drawn as you think.
Yeah. It always amuses me how the loony left seems to cling to the strawman that any problems with Islam are connected solely with terrorism (assuming they even acknowledge the connection in the first place). Meanwhile, it goes after Catholics or Southern Baptists (who, compared to most "moderate" religious Muslims, are leftie pinko liberals) with fire-breathing anti-religious vehemence.
It's up to 379 cases in Cologne now half of which are sexual assault cases.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 09, 2016, 02:56:13 AM
"Quiet" religious types pushing their so-called religion all the time and doing some recruiting by turning chavs into jihadis with their taqqiya skills are a problem too. The line is not easily drawn as you think.
There are quite a few muslims who are religious yet not extremists.
QuoteYeah. It always amuses me how the loony left seems to cling to the strawman that any problems with Islam are connected solely with terrorism (assuming they even acknowledge the connection in the first place). Meanwhile, it goes after Catholics or Southern Baptists (who, compared to most "moderate" religious Muslims, are leftie pinko liberals) with fire-breathing anti-religious vehemence.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/15-things-i-learned-about-islam-and-british-values-as-a-gay-boy-living-opposite-a-mosque-a6763466.html
Quote15 things I learned about Islam and British values as a gay boy living opposite a mosque
1. No mosque has enough parking and Muslim men love to complain about it. I don't care how young or trendy they are; within seconds they will be pointing at bits of pavement and muttering about the number of cars you could fit in there — like my Granddad from Manchester does at Sainsbury's.
2. You can do that look British people do to each other, when someone nearby is making a scene, in a full face veil.
3. Muslims pray a lot.
4. You will be happy they pray a lot when you get stabbed on your doorstep and are too scared to go outside, so you time your trips to the shops to coincide with these prayers as the streets are full of friendly people.
5. Muslims, like all British people have that one problematic uncle that kinda ruins family occasions.
6. When confronted with something out of their comfort zone, like me and my boyfriend in full drag dancing down the road, Muslims - like all British people - get flustered and overcompensate by being overly polite — a bit like Hugh Grant.
7. When finding out you have been dating your boyfriend for five years, your Muslim neighbours will be disgusted that you haven't proposed. You hear "Get a civil partnership — for your mother's sake" a lot.
8. Apparently there is usually half a cup of tea next to the prayer mat when praying at home — especially for morning prayers.
9. Like the rest of British dads, all Muslim fathers think their daughter is smarter than everyone, even though she is only 6 years old...
10...and that their son is a heartbreaker even though it's clear to everyone else that he spends all his time on his Xbox.
11. Young Muslim women are really, really, really ambitious.
12. British people's dry sarcasm works really well when confronting the times the more traditional parts of Islam come face-to-face with modern gay culture. For example, when I donated three sequined crop-tops to the Islamic Relief Syria clothing drive, one of the older guys there smirked while shaking my hand and said, "Our brothers and sisters in Syria thank you for the evening wear."
13. There is always an aunt who gets too involved in the wedding planning and annoys the bride.
14. During ramadan and eid there will be so many people on the streets going to mosque that the drugs dealers will have to move to other places — making your area really safe for a while.
15. Mothers will say anything to stop their kids nagging them. I once saw a Muslim mother tell her kid who wanted some fried chicken after Friday night prayer, that the shop wasn't halal - even though there was a 5ft square neon halal sign in the window. Reminds me of when my mum told me that the chip shop was closed for a private event as she wanted some peace.
Quote from: Liep on January 09, 2016, 08:11:50 AM
You're not quiet if you preach.
I used the word quietist. Quite not the same. :)
Quiet was used LaCroix, in reference to his post I used quotation marks. Nice try Liep :)
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 09, 2016, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 09, 2016, 08:11:50 AM
You're not quiet if you preach.
I used the word quietist. Quite not the same. :)
Quiet was used LaCroix, in reference to his post I used quotation marks. Nice try Liep :)
I'm not sure I tried anything.
A man has been arrested for smuggling a refugee to Sweden, did so in an inflatable boat from close to Helsingør and they landed a little north of Helsingborg.
This better not become a thing. I can't even imagine what would happen if a boat sank in the freezing water and dead refugee children was washed up on either shore.
Quote from: Liep on January 10, 2016, 07:22:02 AMThis better not become a thing. I can't even imagine what would happen if a boat sank in the freezing water and dead refugee children was washed up on either shore.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2new3.fjcdn.com%2Fpictures%2FBuzzfeed%2Bin%2Ba%2Bnutshell_261a8c_5670262.png&hash=8d0a6164facf9ae389a5c05e90b01eb518f60918)
What is this, Facebook?
So when people get upset over all the refugees on account of a few images that's some horrible cynical thing. But when people get upset over all the refugees on account of a few criminals in Germany who may or.may not be refugees that's cool?
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 09, 2016, 02:48:17 PM
......
Something you might enjoy.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYLzY-bWQAEkRSx.jpg)
Quote from: Tyr on January 10, 2016, 07:35:55 AM
So when people get upset over all the refugees on account of a few images that's some horrible cynical thing. But when people get upset over all the refugees on account of a few criminals in Germany who may or.may not be refugees that's cool?
You do realise that this argument cuts both ways, don't you? Both sides have been appealing to emotion whilst denouncing the other side for doing the same. That's what makes it so difficult when one tries to keep the middle ground - either you have to believe that all muslims are terrorists and should be left to die on their little boats or that muslims are great people and terrorism is caused by Western imperialism. There's hardly anyone left who tries to find a moderate position.
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2016, 01:56:14 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 10, 2016, 07:35:55 AM
So when people get upset over all the refugees on account of a few images that's some horrible cynical thing. But when people get upset over all the refugees on account of a few criminals in Germany who may or.may not be refugees that's cool?
You do realise that this argument cuts both ways, don't you?
That was exactly the point of my post.....
Swedish police admit that they keep silent about some crimes for party political reasons (they don't want to give the Sweden Democrats any ammo) when the perps are immigrants. Festivals in Stockholm have had Cologne-like incidents on a smaller scale in 2014 and 2015.
Thanks Obama!
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2016, 01:56:14 PM
There's hardly anyone left who tries to find a moderate position.
:yeahright:
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2016, 01:56:14 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 10, 2016, 07:35:55 AM
So when people get upset over all the refugees on account of a few images that's some horrible cynical thing. But when people get upset over all the refugees on account of a few criminals in Germany who may or.may not be refugees that's cool?
You do realise that this argument cuts both ways, don't you? Both sides have been appealing to emotion whilst denouncing the other side for doing the same. That's what makes it so difficult when one tries to keep the middle ground - either you have to believe that all muslims are terrorists and should be left to die on their little boats or that muslims are great people and terrorism is caused by Western imperialism. There's hardly anyone left who tries to find a moderate position.
I think plenty of people try to find a moderate position. The problem is we have a hard time producing sufficient outrage fodder to keep people inspired.
and in the meantime the new year cesspool keeps growing larger and larger. And this year we can expect another million+ of these people.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 13, 2016, 03:38:26 PM
and in the meantime the new year cesspool keeps growing larger and larger. And this year we can expect another million+ of these people.
I don't recall - was this always your attitude to immigration or is this a more recent development?
Quote from: Jacob on January 13, 2016, 03:44:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 13, 2016, 03:38:26 PM
and in the meantime the new year cesspool keeps growing larger and larger. And this year we can expect another million+ of these people.
I don't recall - was this always your attitude to immigration or is this a more recent development?
And it's one thing to be against immigration and another to use the vocabulary he uses.
Being against certain kinds of immigrants or wanting immigration to be regulated isn't the same thing as being against "immigration".
A few decades ago, millions of Chinese immigrants wanted to escape the famine and cultural revolution on the mainland by escaping to Hong Kong. There was no practical way to stop all of them, but Hong Kong being such a tiny place couldn't accept everybody. So the British colonial officials adopted a compromise.
Basically, HK is divided into three main regions. The relatively rural and large New Territories, and the urban Kowloon and HK island. The rule was, if the immigrants were caught in the New Territories, they would be sent back to the mainland (and face punishment by the mainland authorities). If they managed to reach Kowloon or HK island, they would be presented with HK ID documents welcoming them to their new home. It is a bit like a cat and mouse game, actually.
So if a similar rule is adopted in the EU, it would work like this: authorities in Greece, Hungary etc would try to intercept the Syrians. If they are caught there, they would be sent back to ISIS controlled Syria. If they manage to evade all the troops searching for them and reach Germany, they can stay :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on January 14, 2016, 03:37:35 AM
A few decades ago, millions of Chinese immigrants wanted to escape the famine and cultural revolution on the mainland by escaping to Hong Kong. There was no practical way to stop all of them, but Hong Kong being such a tiny place couldn't accept everybody. So the British colonial officials adopted a compromise.
Basically, HK is divided into three main regions. The relatively rural and large New Territories, and the urban Kowloon and HK island. The rule was, if the immigrants were caught in the New Territories, they would be sent back to the mainland (and face punishment by the mainland authorities). If they managed to reach Kowloon or HK island, they would be presented with HK ID documents welcoming them to their new home. It is a bit like a cat and mouse game, actually.
So if a similar rule is adopted in the EU, it would work like this: authorities in Greece, Hungary etc would try to intercept the Syrians. If they are caught there, they would be sent back to ISIS controlled Syria. If they manage to evade all the troops searching for them and reach Germany, they can stay :contract:
They should probably televise it, so that current citizens of Western countries could bet to see how will make it to the 'safe zones' and who'll get sent back!
Quote from: Monoriu on January 14, 2016, 03:37:35 AM
A few decades ago, millions of Chinese immigrants wanted to escape the famine and cultural revolution on the mainland by escaping to Hong Kong. There was no practical way to stop all of them, but Hong Kong being such a tiny place couldn't accept everybody. So the British colonial officials adopted a compromise.
Basically, HK is divided into three main regions. The relatively rural and large New Territories, and the urban Kowloon and HK island. The rule was, if the immigrants were caught in the New Territories, they would be sent back to the mainland (and face punishment by the mainland authorities). If they managed to reach Kowloon or HK island, they would be presented with HK ID documents welcoming them to their new home. It is a bit like a cat and mouse game, actually.
So if a similar rule is adopted in the EU, it would work like this: authorities in Greece, Hungary etc would try to intercept the Syrians. If they are caught there, they would be sent back to ISIS controlled Syria. If they manage to evade all the troops searching for them and reach Germany, they can stay :contract:
Well, that was the system for about a month, after Merkel's "we will take in every Syrian" speech, and while they still grilled the border EU states like Hungary for not catching all of them. It was the height of chaos.
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2016, 04:02:38 PM
Quote from: Jacob on January 13, 2016, 03:44:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 13, 2016, 03:38:26 PM
and in the meantime the new year cesspool keeps growing larger and larger. And this year we can expect another million+ of these people.
I don't recall - was this always your attitude to immigration or is this a more recent development?
And it's one thing to be against immigration and another to use the vocabulary he uses.
Are you talking in general or about this post of his in particular? Because I am not sure I see where you find objectionable vocabulary in it (I assume that by the "new year cesspool" he means the mass rape/violence scandal that occurred on the new year's eve).
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2016, 04:02:38 PM
Quote from: Jacob on January 13, 2016, 03:44:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 13, 2016, 03:38:26 PM
and in the meantime the new year cesspool keeps growing larger and larger. And this year we can expect another million+ of these people.
I don't recall - was this always your attitude to immigration or is this a more recent development?
And it's one thing to be against immigration and another to use the vocabulary he uses.
The cesspool clearly refers to the coverups and damage-control being done by the politically correct. And there's no denying that this isn't a cesspool. Or even a burst abcess.
Quote from: Jacob on January 13, 2016, 03:44:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 13, 2016, 03:38:26 PM
and in the meantime the new year cesspool keeps growing larger and larger. And this year we can expect another million+ of these people.
I don't recall - was this always your attitude to immigration or is this a more recent development?
this isn't immigration, this is population-replacement. And my attitude to islam has been more or less the same for decades: namely that the world is better of without it. If immigrants adapt then they're free to come, but not all at once cause that's asking for troubles.
Quote from: Martinus
Are you talking in general or about this post of his in particular? Because I am not sure I see where you find objectionable vocabulary in it (I assume that by the "new year cesspool" he means the mass rape/violence scandal that occurred on the new year's eve).
we have a winner
Quote from: Martinus on January 14, 2016, 05:01:20 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 13, 2016, 04:02:38 PM
Quote from: Jacob on January 13, 2016, 03:44:32 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 13, 2016, 03:38:26 PM
and in the meantime the new year cesspool keeps growing larger and larger. And this year we can expect another million+ of these people.
I don't recall - was this always your attitude to immigration or is this a more recent development?
And it's one thing to be against immigration and another to use the vocabulary he uses.
Are you talking in general or about this post of his in particular? Because I am not sure I see where you find objectionable vocabulary in it (I assume that by the "new year cesspool" he means the mass rape/violence scandal that occurred on the new year's eve).
In general. Calling immigration "Population replacement" for example suggests that immigrants somehow replace the original population of our countries, which is just not factual and is just unhelpful fearmongering.
If Germany was a Chinese province and the local Communist bigwig was doing to it what Mutti Zhukov has done, the gutmenschen would be outraged.
Or they wouldn't get whatever the fuck you want to say...
Why use strange pictures ("Mutti Zhukov"? Really?) and not just spell it out so that even the dumbest gets it?
We get each other fine zanza. I'm obviously more upset about what's happening than you. Which is kinda funny, you seem very nonplussed about the whole thing while I'm worried about Germany becoming Syria.
They're already gangraping your women out in the open streets, while the cucked media and the political elite try to censor the truth and paint anyone who disagrees as a "far-right" extremist. If that is how the elite is going to play it something tells me there's a lot more of those around.
Quote from: Zanza on January 14, 2016, 06:27:12 AM
Or they wouldn't get whatever the fuck you want to say...
Why use strange pictures ("Mutti Zhukov"? Really?) and not just spell it out so that even the dumbest gets it?
I kinda agree with Zanza here. Unless you have the CdM's comedic talent, it's better to communicate without these "puns", as they make you look like a Syt's sister type of person.
Quote from: Legbiter on January 14, 2016, 06:36:29 AM
We get each other fine zanza. I'm obviously more upset about what's happening than you. Which is kinda funny, you seem very nonplussed about the whole thing while I'm worried about Germany becoming Syria.
I am indeed not afraid of Germany becoming Syria. I think our culture, our liberal democracy and our legal system are strong enough to integrate migrants. It is a big effort, there will be problems, there will be some people that can't be integrated, but I am with Merkel on this: "Wir schaffen das!"
I don't get this angst about our countries going down the drain because of migration. Are people really believing that the archaical societies these people are fleeing from are more attractive then ours? Apparently, but I don't share this cultural pessimism and am convinced about the superiority and persuasiveness of our ways.
QuoteThey're already gangraping your women out in the open streets, while the cucked media and the political elite try to censor the truth and paint anyone who disagrees as a "far-right" extremist. If that is how the elite is going to play it something tells me there's a lot more of those around.
I don't share your perception of Germany's media not reporting immigration issues. I think they report with a broad spectrum of viewpoints, a lot of them critical about the government policy or certain aspects.
There was also no media censorship about the issues in Cologne, although the police reports came slow and incomplete, which rightfully needs to be adressed.
There is also quite vocal political opposition, both in the government parties and outside. Germany is a mature democracy and policy follows these trends - maybe sometime with a time lag. But then slow and pondering is just how our system works.
Quote from: Zanza on January 14, 2016, 07:24:00 AMI am indeed not afraid of Germany becoming Syria. I think our culture, our liberal democracy and our legal system are strong enough to integrate migrants. It is a big effort, there will be problems, there will be some people that can't be integrated, but I am with Merkel on this: "Wir schaffen das!"
I keep picturing the Krautcuck trying to lecture them on proper respect for women. :osama: :huh:
Sorry it's not going to work. Maybe the local Stahlhelm association could.
Quote from: Legbiter on January 14, 2016, 07:33:14 AM
Maybe the local Stahlhelm association could.
I wasn't aware of Stahlhelm's democratic or feminist credentials.
Quote from: Zanza on January 14, 2016, 07:24:00 AM
I don't get this angst about our countries going down the drain because of migration. Are people really believing that the archaical societies these people are fleeing from are more attractive then ours? Apparently, but I don't share this cultural pessimism and am convinced about the superiority and persuasiveness of our ways.
like I said earlier: a lot of these migrants are also absolutely convinced that their way of ordering society is far superior to ours. Most aren't here because of our culture but for the money: either trough work (of we're lucky) or through wellfare.
Quote from: Zanza on January 14, 2016, 07:24:00 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on January 14, 2016, 06:36:29 AM
We get each other fine zanza. I'm obviously more upset about what's happening than you. Which is kinda funny, you seem very nonplussed about the whole thing while I'm worried about Germany becoming Syria.
I am indeed not afraid of Germany becoming Syria. I think our culture, our liberal democracy and our legal system are strong enough to integrate migrants. It is a big effort, there will be problems, there will be some people that can't be integrated, but I am with Merkel on this: "Wir schaffen das!"
I don't get this angst about our countries going down the drain because of migration. Are people really believing that the archaical societies these people are fleeing from are more attractive then ours? Apparently, but I don't share this cultural pessimism and am convinced about the superiority and persuasiveness of our ways.
QuoteThey're already gangraping your women out in the open streets, while the cucked media and the political elite try to censor the truth and paint anyone who disagrees as a "far-right" extremist. If that is how the elite is going to play it something tells me there's a lot more of those around.
I don't share your perception of Germany's media not reporting immigration issues. I think they report with a broad spectrum of viewpoints, a lot of them critical about the government policy or certain aspects.
There was also no media censorship about the issues in Cologne, although the police reports came slow and incomplete, which rightfully needs to be adressed.
There is also quite vocal political opposition, both in the government parties and outside. Germany is a mature democracy and policy follows these trends - maybe sometime with a time lag. But then slow and pondering is just how our system works.
Zanza I respect your measured and moderate take on this but automatically assuming a desire to adopt German values is wrong. If somebody has grown up in a society where women were only marginally of more value than cattle for the past 12 thousand years, it is ENTIRELY feasible to think he will not be convinced about the wisdom of giving them the vote, or locking somebody up because of some "harmless" touching and "flirting".
@crazy ivan:
You obviously know more about the hearts and minds of these migrants than I do.
But I have so much faith in our culture, our values and our societal rules that I believe they convince most people coming here no matter what their original convictions were. We need to teach it, we need to live it and where necessary enforce the rules, but I think we will be successful doing that.
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 08:52:19 AM
Zanza I respect your measured and moderate take on this but automatically assuming a desire to adopt German values is wrong. If somebody has grown up in a society where women were only marginally of more value than cattle for the past 12 thousand years, it is ENTIRELY feasible to think he will not be convinced about the wisdom of giving them the vote, or locking somebody up because of some "harmless" touching and "flirting".
Of course. And we must do everything to convince him and help and protect her. We cannot accept such behaviour and must if necessary enforce our rules.
But replacing it with the Stahlhelm view on women or other liberal concepts is really not going to help us. I feel like the Stahlhelm views are much closer to current Arab views than to our views.
Quote from: Zanza on January 14, 2016, 08:56:56 AM
@crazy ivan:
You obviously know more about the hearts and minds of these migrants than I do.
But I have so much faith in our culture, our values and our societal rules that I believe they convince most people coming here no matter what their original convictions were. We need to teach it, we need to live it and where necessary enforce the rules, but I think we will be successful doing that.
Before I moved to England I bought a book that studied the psychological process of adopting living in a new country. It seemed a very individual process with resentment of the host culture often being a phase (after around 6 months IIRC), and with some people struggling to ever get out of that phase.
Just to say this won't be easy.
And convinctions stay with you when you are an adult, most of the time. You just adopt to whatever laws you live under, if you must.
I have now seen a theory floated around that it is not a surprise that the sexual attacks on the New Year's Eve were organised and coordinated - because they were, by the ISIS, inciting some idiots among the immigrants to do so, so this (like the terrorist attacks) radicalises the Western-Islamic divide even more. Thoughts?
Quote from: Martinus on January 14, 2016, 10:10:00 AM
I have now seen a theory floated around that it is not a surprise that the sexual attacks on the New Year's Eve were organised and coordinated - because they were, by the ISIS, inciting some idiots among the immigrants to do so, so this (like the terrorist attacks) radicalises the Western-Islamic divide even more. Thoughts?
Strikes me as a conspiracy theory to me. I mean ISIS was probably happy with that outcome but just because somebody benefits from something does not mean they were behind it.
Quote from: Martinus on January 14, 2016, 10:10:00 AM
I have now seen a theory floated around that it is not a surprise that the sexual attacks on the New Year's Eve were organised and coordinated - because they were, by the ISIS, inciting some idiots among the immigrants to do so, so this (like the terrorist attacks) radicalises the Western-Islamic divide even more. Thoughts?
Deep :tinfoil: territory in my opinion.
A mob of drunk youth can commit these attacks without some nefarious mastermind in Syria telling them to. We give ISIS way too much credit if you see them behind events like this.
Daesh don't even organise their bombings let alone stuff like that.
That was my thinking too, but wanted to check if something is "lost in translation" (as I don't have full visibility of the incident).
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 08:52:19 AM
Zanza I respect your measured and moderate take on this but automatically assuming a desire to adopt German values is wrong. If somebody has grown up in a society where women were only marginally of more value than cattle for the past 12 thousand years, it is ENTIRELY feasible to think he will not be convinced about the wisdom of giving them the vote, or locking somebody up because of some "harmless" touching and "flirting".
I don't think it matters.
First of all, most people immigrating or fleeing aren't thinking about culture one way or the other. They don't go to another country thinking "Oh, their culture is so much better, I want to change how I live to match them" or "Oh, my culture is so much better, I shall work to subvert them to my ways!".
No, they are thinking "Eating seems a lot better than not, I think I will go over there where I get to eat".
What happens once they get there is based on the cultures involved. Cultural assimilation takes time, but it isn't something that happens consciously for the vast majority of people. And no matter what they DO think, it really doesn't matter in the long run, except at the extremes (and the vast majority are not extremists).
I am with Zanza. I believe in the power of freedom, liberty, education, equal rights, reasonable opportunity. No matter how non-western they might be when they get here, and how difficult it can be to figure out how to make it work in the short term, in the long run the western ideals have always won out. Always. 100% of the time, in some fashion. I cannot think of one single example where they have not...in the long run.
Now, there are examples where it has not gone as smoothly as one would like, but that results in assimilation not happening as quickly as we would like, NOT in the host culture being subverted.
I find it surprising how little faith actual liberals have in liberal ideals.
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 09:13:55 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 14, 2016, 08:56:56 AM
@crazy ivan:
You obviously know more about the hearts and minds of these migrants than I do.
But I have so much faith in our culture, our values and our societal rules that I believe they convince most people coming here no matter what their original convictions were. We need to teach it, we need to live it and where necessary enforce the rules, but I think we will be successful doing that.
Before I moved to England I bought a book that studied the psychological process of adopting living in a new country. It seemed a very individual process with resentment of the host culture often being a phase (after around 6 months IIRC), and with some people struggling to ever get out of that phase.
Just to say this won't be easy.
And convinctions stay with you when you are an adult, most of the time. You just adopt to whatever laws you live under, if you must.
I think about the hundreds of thousands of Chinese that immigrated to the US in the 1800s. A totally alien culture, as alien as probably existed at that time.
What happened in the long run?
100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.
The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.
Quote
100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.
The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.
The side of the horrors of cultural genocide and appropriation :weep: Oops I mean trauma. Deep trauma.
But seriously this is not just them. Virtually every immigrant community from before WWII has done this. I do not understand the strong nativism in this country, it is so nonsensical for numerous reasons.
I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.
And in Europe this is all academic debate: regardless of assimilation being possible or not, dumping this cultural challenge in this size on the general population was an absolutely fucked up idea. RIght-wingers will take over governments everywhere, and we will be fucked, and especially the Muslim population will be fucked.
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 12:36:35 PM
Quote
100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.
The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.
The side of the horrors of cultural genocide and appropriation :weep: Oops I mean trauma. Deep trauma.
But seriously this is not just them. Virtually every immigrant community from before WWII has done this. I do not understand the strong nativism in this country, it is so nonsensical for numerous reasons.
Indeed, I was only using them as an example.
I have no concern whatsoever about immigrants imposing their own culture on my own. I am supremely confident, even arrogant, about the fact that the reason they want to come here in the first place is a direct result of the supremacy of our culture, in fact.
We are far from perfect, but a damn site closer than just about any Middle Eastern or African country where people are fleeing in droves.
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.
That shows a rather shallow understanding of Roman history. They didn't fail because of immigrants, they failed because of the choices they made themselves about how to structure their economy and society, and their unwillingness to fix it even when it was obviously not workable.
A bunch of goths invading and fucking them up was a symptom of the rot in Roman culture, not the cause of the rot.
If you think Europe is fundamentally broken, such that this kind of immigration will shatter them, then the problem is not really the immigration in any case.
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 12:42:25 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.
That shows a rather shallow understanding of Roman history. They didn't fail because of immigrants, they failed because of the choices they made themselves about how to structure their economy and society, and their unwillingness to fix it even when it was obviously not workable.
A bunch of goths invading and fucking them up was a symptom of the rot in Roman culture, not the cause of the rot.
If you think Europe is fundamentally broken, such that this kind of immigration will shatter them, then the problem is not really the immigration in any case.
I completely disagree they fundamentally changed it numerous ways after the crisis of the third century. Besides it is not like obvious solutions to their problems were presenting themselves.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 05:06:27 AM
this isn't immigration, this is population-replacement. And my attitude to islam has been more or less the same for decades: namely that the world is better of without it. If immigrants adapt then they're free to come, but not all at once cause that's asking for troubles.
Thanks, that's what I was wondering. It's not something I noticed on your part until these last few years. I guess we didn't have as much cause to talk about it.
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 12:48:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 12:42:25 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.
That shows a rather shallow understanding of Roman history. They didn't fail because of immigrants, they failed because of the choices they made themselves about how to structure their economy and society, and their unwillingness to fix it even when it was obviously not workable.
A bunch of goths invading and fucking them up was a symptom of the rot in Roman culture, not the cause of the rot.
If you think Europe is fundamentally broken, such that this kind of immigration will shatter them, then the problem is not really the immigration in any case.
I completely disagree they fundamentally changed it numerous ways after the crisis of the third century. Besides it is not like obvious solutions to their problems were presenting themselves.
None of their changes actually addressed the problems though. They re-arranged deck chairs in the hopes that might patch the hole in the hull.
And I think the solutions were in fact obvious - what was not obvious was how to actually implement them in a society where the people benefitting from the fucked up setup are the same people who have the power to fix it, but only at the expense of their own wealth and control.
THAT was not obvious then, and sadly, it isn't obvious now.
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.
And in Europe this is all academic debate: regardless of assimilation being possible or not, dumping this cultural challenge in this size on the general population was an absolutely fucked up idea. RIght-wingers will take over governments everywhere, and we will be fucked, and especially the Muslim population will be fucked.
I understand there were a few actual battles involved.
Once immigrants and refugees start organizing actual armies to fight against the states they wish to settle in to claim the right to settle and rule, then the Roman Empire parallels could be germane. Otherwise, it does seem a little hyperbolic at this point.
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 12:42:25 PM
they failed because of the choices they made themselves about how to structure their economy and society, and their unwillingness to fix it even when it was obviously not workable.
:lol: well we ARE talking about the EU here
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
And in Europe this is all academic debate: regardless of assimilation being possible or not, dumping this cultural challenge in this size on the general population was an absolutely fucked up idea. RIght-wingers will take over governments everywhere, and we will be fucked, and especially the Muslim population will be fucked.
That's the thing that gets me, this isn't an unmanageable number of people for the population of Europe. Short term it is a serious logistics issue (including housing, feeding, policing, integrating), long term this isn't that many people relative to either the total population or even the population of immigrants to Europe over the past 20 years. Demographically this is a migration that should be encouraged, many European countries are dealing with aging populations and could benefit from an influx of youth. To let a temporary logistical problem drive long term political decisions is horribly short sighted.
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 12:52:55 PM
And I think the solutions were in fact obvious - what was not obvious was how to actually implement them in a society where the people benefitting from the fucked up setup are the same people who have the power to fix it, but only at the expense of their own wealth and control.
Intriguing. Tell me more.
A healthy society can absorb fairly large numbers of unskilled and semi-hostile immigrants. Sweden isn't healthy though. It has AIDS.
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
I take your Special Case: America bet and raise it with a Western Roman Empire. All the Germans wanted was to live under safety, and the prosperity of the Roman Empire. Yet they managed to dilute its cohesion and make it cease to exist.
And in Europe this is all academic debate: regardless of assimilation being possible or not, dumping this cultural challenge in this size on the general population was an absolutely fucked up idea. RIght-wingers will take over governments everywhere, and we will be fucked, and especially the Muslim population will be fucked.
That is fucking stupid. You are comparing industrial societies existing now to a civil war prone iron age state of which records are rather sketchy. The UK adsorbed a large number of Polish-Russian Jews, Hell they tolerate you, and that's saying something.
Honest question: Have there been any cases of women being groped at evening concerts prior to the Syrian refugee crisis.
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 12:36:35 PM
Quote
100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.
The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.
The side of the horrors of cultural genocide and appropriation :weep: Oops I mean trauma. Deep trauma.
But seriously this is not just them. Virtually every immigrant community from before WWII has done this. I do not understand the strong nativism in this country, it is so nonsensical for numerous reasons.
I had to bite my lip at Ukrainian Christmas. My mother in law, no doubt after reading some right wing tabloids, was going on about the dangers to Canadian culture of letting in "so many" refugees, and how their "foreign ways" would be a challenge, as they would "refuse to assimilate".
This, from a woman
who was a refugee herself, and on an occasion when we were celebrating Christmas - at her insistence - in January -- complete with prayers and the like in Ukrainian. :D Canadian society is, I think, pretty elastic. ;)
[I was thinking 'all will be okay if their hott daughters grow up to marry Jews' ... :P]
Quote from: Razgovory on January 14, 2016, 01:40:16 PM
Honest question: Have there been any cases of women being groped at evening concerts prior to the Syrian refugee crisis.
Not that I'm aware of, no.
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 12:39:49 PMAnd in Europe this is all academic debate: regardless of assimilation being possible or not, dumping this cultural challenge in this size on the general population was an absolutely fucked up idea. RIght-wingers will take over governments everywhere, and we will be fucked, and especially the Muslim population will be fucked.
This is the real danger. The constant fearmongering only helps the right-wing parties. Legbiter suggested that Germany would need Stahlhelm back. This is one of the organizations that actively fought the first liberal democracy in Germany and eventually helped the Nazis to destroy it. Can a quarter million Syrians damage our society? Not really. Can a third of the French voting FN, one in ten Germans voting AfD or people suggesting we need paramilitary fascist groups again? Yes, for sure.
Should that mean we no longer help those in need and apply our constitional protections for human rights anymore, but instead bow to the extremists, xenophobes and fascists to appease their prejudices and anxieties? No, we should not.
Germany is a liberal state and should stay a liberal state. That means foreigners coming here have to integrate. That also means we need to protect against domestic opponents of our liberal values.
Kind of a chicken and egg situation here. There would be no significant FN voting without unchecked mass immigration of hard to assimilate migrants.
Also, Americans: the EU is not a single mass of 300 million being able to absorb refugees due to sheer size differences. It's not how it works
FFS UKIP made a career out of blaming everything on a few hundred thousand white Christian East europeans ruining everything.
Tamas, your basic argument seems to be not that immigrants are a problem, but that assholes will say immigrants are a problem because they hate them, so we should do what the assholes want so that they can't say they are unhappy.
It was actually pretty good here till the East Europeans turned up :(
I find them(UKIP) far less worrying than the FN though, 15% of the British vote and half of them just wanting to stick two fingers up at Brussels. In the recent elections in France it was looking like FN vs The Rest.
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 02:34:04 PM
Also, Americans: the EU is not a single mass of 300 million being able to absorb refugees due to sheer size differences. It's not how it works
FFS UKIP made a career out of blaming everything on a few hundred thousand white Christian East europeans ruining everything.
According to 2010 data from Wikipedia there were 31.4 million non-EU immigrants for a base population of 500+ million. Are you saying that the 1+ million from the past year are completely unable to be handled? I agree it's a big logistical problem, but to make it a political one is fear mongering.
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2016, 02:34:04 PM
Also, Americans: the EU is not a single mass of 300 million being able to absorb refugees due to sheer size differences. It's not how it works
FFS UKIP made a career out of blaming everything on a few hundred thousand white Christian East europeans ruining everything.
The US wasn't either in the 1800s.
Quote from: garbon on January 14, 2016, 02:46:54 PM
The US wasn't either in the 1800s.
Yeah and you didn't see us form any far right anti-immigrant parties...
(https://www.weareoneamerica.org/sites/weareoneamerica.org/files/images/thumbnails/know-nothing_flag.jpg?1298333155)
A fine sentiment but it was too late for the Native Americans by that point :weep:
That is the flag of the 'American Party' aka 'The Know-Nothings'
Quote from: Jacob on January 14, 2016, 12:55:41 PM
then the Roman Empire parallels could be germane
I see what you did there.
What's with the reverse Ns on the flag?
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 12:34:11 PM
I think about the hundreds of thousands of Chinese that immigrated to the US in the 1800s. A totally alien culture, as alien as probably existed at that time.
What happened in the long run?
100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.
The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.
The problem is that in most European states the concept of national identity is based on ethnicity. Think of it as our "gun culture". We hoped by this time people will be enlightened enough and it will go away. It didn't. Now it's a quagmire because it is dysfunctional but impossible to remove.
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 03:02:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 14, 2016, 02:46:54 PM
The US wasn't either in the 1800s.
Yeah and you didn't see us form any far right anti-immigrant parties...
(https://www.weareoneamerica.org/sites/weareoneamerica.org/files/images/thumbnails/know-nothing_flag.jpg?1298333155)
A fine sentiment but it was too late for the Native Americans by that point :weep:
That is the flag of the 'American Party' aka 'The Know-Nothings'
You are missing the point.
We are not saying that American is super awesome and we don't have dumbasses.
We are saying that despite the dumbasses saying the exact same things people are saying now, THEN, it all turned out not just ok, but more than ok.
Hence, please Euroes (and current dumbass know nothing Americans, for that matter),
a) Don't be a dumbass, and
b) Don't listen to the dumbasses, and
c) Don't be anti-immigration on the basis of fears that they are going to destroy your culture in place of their own.
Quote from: Syt on January 14, 2016, 03:03:28 PM
What's with the reverse Ns on the flag?
They flagmakers knew nothing. Including which way the letter "N" goes. ;)
I thought they maybe pinched some И from Russian immigrants. :P
Quote from: Syt on January 14, 2016, 03:03:28 PM
What's with the reverse Ns on the flag?
I am far more baffled why they got the first n correct. Maybe it was some kind of weird 19th century thing to reverse the N if it was not the first letter of a word.
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 02:40:27 PM
Tamas, your basic argument seems to be not that immigrants are a problem, but that assholes will say immigrants are a problem because they hate them, so we should do what the assholes want so that they can't say they are unhappy.
As I said, it works pretty similar to your gun problem. The simplest solution would be to ban or severely restrict access to guns - like it is done in the rest of the civilized world. But you don't do it, because it is not politically feasible. Same with attitudes about immigration in Europe. You have to work with what you have - you can't expect people to wisen up suddenly over night.
Quote from: Syt on January 14, 2016, 03:03:28 PM
What's with the reverse Ns on the flag?
it's paradox testing their Soviet font.
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 03:05:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 03:02:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 14, 2016, 02:46:54 PM
The US wasn't either in the 1800s.
Yeah and you didn't see us form any far right anti-immigrant parties...
(https://www.weareoneamerica.org/sites/weareoneamerica.org/files/images/thumbnails/know-nothing_flag.jpg?1298333155)
A fine sentiment but it was too late for the Native Americans by that point :weep:
That is the flag of the 'American Party' aka 'The Know-Nothings'
You are missing the point.
We are not saying that American is super awesome and we don't have dumbasses.
We are saying that despite the dumbasses saying the exact same things people are saying now, THEN, it all turned out not just ok, but more than ok.
Hence, please Euroes (and current dumbass know nothing Americans, for that matter),
a) Don't be a dumbass, and
b) Don't listen to the dumbasses, and
c) Don't be anti-immigration on the basis of fears that they are going to destroy your culture in place of their own.
c is a tad ironic given what mass-migration of europeans did to the local cultures...
:lol:
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:22:16 PM
incidentally: north america is a nice example of mass-migration not going well for the native population.
Particularly when the migrants bring over infectious diseases that kill off 90% of you.
Quote from: Martinus on January 14, 2016, 03:04:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 12:34:11 PM
I think about the hundreds of thousands of Chinese that immigrated to the US in the 1800s. A totally alien culture, as alien as probably existed at that time.
What happened in the long run?
100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.
The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.
The problem is that in most European states the concept of national identity is based on ethnicity.
In my experience identity is mostly based on language, dialect, accent.
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 03:09:47 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 14, 2016, 03:03:28 PM
What's with the reverse Ns on the flag?
I am far more baffled why they got the first n correct. Maybe it was some kind of weird 19th century thing to reverse the N if it was not the first letter of a word.
There was a slang fad in New York in the 1840's were they would spell things wrong. They really prided themselves on "knowing nothing". We get the word "OK" from that, it stood for "Oll korrekt" "KY" for "Knose Youse" did not survive sadly.
The thing about anti-migrant elements in the US is that they were often quite weak. They were loud, obnoxious and often violent, but they rarely got what they wanted. Their only real success was stemming the tide of East Asians coming into this country, a very unfortunate victory.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:24:25 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 03:05:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 03:02:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 14, 2016, 02:46:54 PM
The US wasn't either in the 1800s.
Yeah and you didn't see us form any far right anti-immigrant parties...
(https://www.weareoneamerica.org/sites/weareoneamerica.org/files/images/thumbnails/know-nothing_flag.jpg?1298333155)
A fine sentiment but it was too late for the Native Americans by that point :weep:
That is the flag of the 'American Party' aka 'The Know-Nothings'
You are missing the point.
We are not saying that American is super awesome and we don't have dumbasses.
We are saying that despite the dumbasses saying the exact same things people are saying now, THEN, it all turned out not just ok, but more than ok.
Hence, please Euroes (and current dumbass know nothing Americans, for that matter),
a) Don't be a dumbass, and
b) Don't listen to the dumbasses, and
c) Don't be anti-immigration on the basis of fears that they are going to destroy your culture in place of their own.
c is a tad ironic given what mass-migration of europeans did to the local cultures...
Not really, since my entire point is that Western Culture has nothing to fear from Islamic/middle eastern/African culture, not that no culture ever has anything to fear under any circumstances no matter what.
In Sweden in the 20th century people could make fun of religion without other people trying to murder them. Now people have to tip-toe around (some major examples of) religion. That's just one example of how Swedish culture has changed, and it's a pretty negative change in my book.
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 04:34:05 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:24:25 PM
c is a tad ironic given what mass-migration of europeans did to the local cultures...
Not really, since my entire point is that Western Culture has nothing to fear from Islamic/middle eastern/African culture, not that no culture ever has anything to fear under any circumstances no matter what.
depends very much on wether or not politicians, press and culturos start to show some backbone in the face of continued demands from muslims to accommodate their retrograde culturo-religious nonsens. Currently not much backbone is being seen.
So what Zanza says about defending the liberal order is correct, but it's still far too soft. The newcomers will not just accept our liberal order because it's superior (hell, 60 years of migration from Maghreb and other islamic countries has shown that there's a significant part -some cases a majority even- of the muslims here that do not accept our liberal values, and that's after 3 generations) or because they got some courses on how to behave. It'll have to be -proverbially, but given the amount that's projected over the next few decades, literally- beaten into them. So whereas - I assume- Zanza expects a relatively bloodless affair I expect something rather worse. Of which Cologne was only the beginning. And the fact that governments and media (like in Sweden, but also here) are doing their best to cover up those things that don't fit into their happy-happy-multiculti worldview reinforces that expectation. People are seeing through the lies, and are growing increasingly angry.
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:22:16 PM
incidentally: north america is a nice example of mass-migration not going well for the native population.
Particularly when the migrants bring over infectious diseases that kill off 90% of you.
doesn't really change the fact that mass-migration didn't go well for those that remained.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:52:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2016, 04:34:05 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:24:25 PM
c is a tad ironic given what mass-migration of europeans did to the local cultures...
Not really, since my entire point is that Western Culture has nothing to fear from Islamic/middle eastern/African culture, not that no culture ever has anything to fear under any circumstances no matter what.
depends very much on wether or not politicians, press and culturos start to show some backbone in the face of continued demands from muslims to accommodate their retrograde culturo-religious nonsens. Currently not much backbone is being seen.
So what Zanza says about defending the liberal order is correct, but it's still far too soft. The newcomers will not just accept our liberal order because it's superior (hell, 60 years of migration from Maghreb and other islamic countries has shown that there's a significant part -some cases a majority even- of the muslims here that do not accept our liberal values, and that's after 3 generations) or because they got some courses on how to behave. It'll have to be -proverbially, but given the amount that's projected over the next few decades, literally- beaten into them. So whereas - I assume- Zanza expects a relatively bloodless affair I expect something rather worse. Of which Cologne was only the beginning. And the fact that governments and media (like in Sweden, but also here) are doing their best to cover up those things that don't fit into their happy-happy-multiculti worldview reinforces that expectation. People are seeing through the lies, and are growing increasingly angry.
What demands are Muslims making that liberal politicians are too spineless to resist?
Quote from: The Brain on January 14, 2016, 04:41:20 PM
In Sweden in the 20th century people could make fun of religion without other people trying to murder them. Now people have to tip-toe around (some major examples of) religion. That's just one example of how Swedish culture has changed, and it's a pretty negative change in my book.
or the Sharia courts in Britain. Not a positive evolution either. Especially not for women. Machteld Zee has done a nice study on it.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:22:16 PM
incidentally: north america is a nice example of mass-migration not going well for the native population.
Particularly when the migrants bring over infectious diseases that kill off 90% of you.
doesn't really change the fact that mass-migration didn't go well for those that remained.
Probably because it wasn't? The Europeans were migrating to the Spanish Empire or whatever not to the Mayan nation.
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:22:16 PM
incidentally: north america is a nice example of mass-migration not going well for the native population.
Particularly when the migrants bring over infectious diseases that kill off 90% of you.
doesn't really change the fact that mass-migration didn't go well for those that remained.
Probably because it wasn't? The Europeans were migrating to the Spanish Empire or whatever not to the Mayan nation.
Since you accept that mass-migration in the americas didn't go well for the natives, your point is what?
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 05:03:49 PM
Since you accept that mass-migration in the americas didn't go well for the natives, your point is what?
That people arriving on Ellis Island is fundamentally different than the Mongol Horde sweeping through :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 05:07:25 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 05:03:49 PM
Since you accept that mass-migration in the americas didn't go well for the natives, your point is what?
That people arriving on Ellis Island is fundamentally different than the Mongol Horde sweeping through :lol:
Isn't very relevant to the very real fact that the native americans all over the two continents have been marginalised by the newcomers. If they were lucky enough not to be wiped out that is. Wether those migrants came via Ellis Island, with the follow ups to the Mayflower or with the expeditions of Cortez or Pizarro the result was the same: the natives got shafted.
At least the Mongols had the decency to eventually go away/be defeated.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 14, 2016, 04:41:20 PM
In Sweden in the 20th century people could make fun of religion without other people trying to murder them. Now people have to tip-toe around (some major examples of) religion. That's just one example of how Swedish culture has changed, and it's a pretty negative change in my book.
or the Sharia courts in Britain. Not a positive evolution either. Especially not for women. Machteld Zee has done a nice study on it.
As a lawyer, the whole "Sharia Courts!!!" scare is something that really irritates me with its stupidity. :yuk:
I briefly glanced at Zee's blog. I was not exactly impressed with the little I read of it.
http://leidenlawblog.nl/articles/what-happens-at-sharia-councils-part-three-the-muslim-arbitration-tribunal
QuoteIn my quest on learning the relationship between Sharia councils and state laws, I ask him if a secular judge ever reviewed such an award, which I am told has not been the case. I ask him about the somewhat confusing final article of their procedural rules, article 23: "No appeal shall be made against any decisions of the Tribunal. This rule shall not prevent any party applying for Judicial Review with permission of the High Court.Siddiqi tells me there haven't been appeals as his clients are "satisfied customers who consider it a serious matter".
Later, Chief Crown Prosecutor Nazir Afzal tells me on the phone that the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal is known to deter parties from seeking appeal, even though individuals do have an inalienable right to challenge the award in court, which is codified in article 58 of the Arbitration Act.
Yet, when correctly regulated by the Arbitration Act, the Crown Chief Prosecutor sees no problem in the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal using alternative dispute resolution regarding local property disputes, especially when parties are equally matched."
From this, it seems that the author, despite being a PhD student in legal studies, doesn't know the difference between an "appeal" and a "judicial review" in the Anglo system, given that he finds the (bog standard) article 23 "somewhat confusing".
This part is where the 'just plain stupid" comes in:
QuoteThe consequence for the legal status of these religious tribunals is that there are two separate legal systems functioning independently, of which one is operating in the shadow of the law.
Yet, for the proponents it seems morally and principally plain wrong not to grant, at least to a certain extent, judicial autonomy to Muslims. The moral justification lies in the equal treatment of all religions, and, the reasoning goes, because British Muslims are not free to live under their own laws, as institutionalised by their own courts, they are not treated equally. The wish is for more legal latitude to be given to rights rooted in religious identity in the form of Islamic religious tribunals. Interestingly enough, these proponents adhere to notions of non-discrimination between groups. By doing so, they miss the important point of non-discrimination within groups.
No, that isn't the consequence of private arbitration! It is no more a "shadow of the law" situation
than any other contract! :face: Now, there are perfectly good reasons to restrict arbitration in certain cases, because of inequalities in bargaining power - domestic contracts for example. But that's a totally different issue.
Yeah that's pretty bogus - usually any private arbitration is "final" in that you cannot simply appeal against the ruling, but it is subject of judicial review if fundamental principles of law or due process were violated.
I guess my only concern with these "sharia courts" is to what extent the decision to refer a dispute to one is fully autonomous for all participants. After all, for the same reason, in certain types of dealings law prohibits private arbitration or allows for special arbitration (with heavy public oversight) to be used only (e.g. consumer or employment disputes). Thoughts on this, Malthus?
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:52:34 PM
It'll have to be -proverbially, but given the amount that's projected over the next few decades, literally- beaten into them. So whereas - I assume- Zanza expects a relatively bloodless affair I expect something rather worse. Of which Cologne was only the beginning.
So you're basically saying a race war is coming.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 05:03:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:22:16 PM
incidentally: north america is a nice example of mass-migration not going well for the native population.
Particularly when the migrants bring over infectious diseases that kill off 90% of you.
doesn't really change the fact that mass-migration didn't go well for those that remained.
Probably because it wasn't? The Europeans were migrating to the Spanish Empire or whatever not to the Mayan nation.
Since you accept that mass-migration in the americas didn't go well for the natives, your point is what?
That's not really "mass-migration". The Germans didn't "Migrate" into Belgium in 1914 and 1940 only to "migrate" back after a short time. Migration is like invasion in the same way a kiss on the cheek is like rape.
Quote from: The Brain on January 14, 2016, 04:41:20 PM
In Sweden in the 20th century people could make fun of religion without other people trying to murder them. Now people have to tip-toe around (some major examples of) religion. That's just one example of how Swedish culture has changed, and it's a pretty negative change in my book.
And some of that time people of other then Lutherans had complete civil rights!
There are any number of ways this will play out, from generally successful integration albeit with some (significant) challenges along the way on one end of the spectrum, to significant chaos, instability and peril of the host cultures on the other. Much depends on known unknowns ( :P ) just around the corner, like how many migrants come when the weather begins to warm up again. My own view is that drawing parallels with, say, Chinese immigration is not apples to apples, and that it's rather naive to expect this to result in anything other than, at best, long term social problems and reduction in quality of life for Europeans, but then what do I know?
And my channelling of Rumsfeld was deliberate, as I hope leftists aren't as wrong about the feasibility of this as the right was on Iraq.
Quote from: Martinus on January 14, 2016, 06:01:16 PM
Yeah that's pretty bogus - usually any private arbitration is "final" in that you cannot simply appeal against the ruling, but it is subject of judicial review if fundamental principles of law or due process were violated.
I guess my only concern with these "sharia courts" is to what extent the decision to refer a dispute to one is fully autonomous for all participants. After all, for the same reason, in certain types of dealings law prohibits private arbitration or allows for special arbitration (with heavy public oversight) to be used only (e.g.w consumer or employment disputes). Thoughts on this, Malthus?
Absolutely. I gave one very significant example of that type - family law arbitration. It ought to be limited, "sharia" or not, for the exact reasons you state - the presumption that the parties are really fully autonomous is often pretty weak. Same with any sort of family law type contracts. Heavy public oversight is worthwhile.
There are other situations of a similar sort, as you say consumer and employment, but family law is the biggie.
Thing is that this is an issue generally with ADR, has nothing to do with it being based on "sharia". The notion that sharia based ADR is some sort of creeping Islamic invasion is just dumb. ADR of all sorts existed for years before Muslims discovered it.
It is sorta like people clutching their pearls in horror at the thought of Muslims using this newfangled thing known as a "contract". Why, they are writing their own law! And courts will enforce it! Horrors!
Quote from: Camerus on January 14, 2016, 11:17:26 PM
There are any number of ways this will play out, from generally successful integration albeit with some (significant) challenges along the way on one end of the spectrum, to significant chaos, instability and peril of the host cultures on the other. Much depends on known unknowns ( :P ) just around the corner, like how many migrants come when the weather begins to warm up again. My own view is that drawing parallels with, say, Chinese immigration is not apples to apples, and that it's rather naive to expect this to result in anything other than, at best, long term social problems and reduction in quality of life for Europeans, but then what do I know?
And my channelling of Rumsfeld was deliberate, as I hope leftists aren't as wrong about the feasibility of this as the right was on Iraq.
If European society is so weak that it can't absorb a million or so refugees, then it deserves to be more than "imperiled"; it needs to be completely overhauled or dismantled.
Quote from: dps on January 14, 2016, 11:52:52 PM
Quote from: Camerus on January 14, 2016, 11:17:26 PM
There are any number of ways this will play out, from generally successful integration albeit with some (significant) challenges along the way on one end of the spectrum, to significant chaos, instability and peril of the host cultures on the other. Much depends on known unknowns ( :P ) just around the corner, like how many migrants come when the weather begins to warm up again. My own view is that drawing parallels with, say, Chinese immigration is not apples to apples, and that it's rather naive to expect this to result in anything other than, at best, long term social problems and reduction in quality of life for Europeans, but then what do I know?
And my channelling of Rumsfeld was deliberate, as I hope leftists aren't as wrong about the feasibility of this as the right was on Iraq.
If European society is so weak that it can't absorb a million or so refugees, then it deserves to be more than "imperiled"; it needs to be completely overhauled or dismantled.
What makes you so confident that "a million or so" will be the total amount to come to all Europe?
Quote from: dps on January 14, 2016, 11:52:52 PM
Quote from: Camerus on January 14, 2016, 11:17:26 PM
There are any number of ways this will play out, from generally successful integration albeit with some (significant) challenges along the way on one end of the spectrum, to significant chaos, instability and peril of the host cultures on the other. Much depends on known unknowns ( :P ) just around the corner, like how many migrants come when the weather begins to warm up again. My own view is that drawing parallels with, say, Chinese immigration is not apples to apples, and that it's rather naive to expect this to result in anything other than, at best, long term social problems and reduction in quality of life for Europeans, but then what do I know?
And my channelling of Rumsfeld was deliberate, as I hope leftists aren't as wrong about the feasibility of this as the right was on Iraq.
If European society is so weak that it can't absorb a million or so refugees, then it deserves to be more than "imperiled"; it needs to be completely overhauled or dismantled.
The problem is that there is no "European society" at the moment.
Incidentally, notwithstanding problems with integrating devout Muslims into the Western society (which cannot simply be brushed over - they are significant, and much bigger than, say, it is to integrate Mexicans or even, say, Indians (as in immigrants from India), into the American society), I think on the European side is that Europeans are generally much more racist/xenophobic than Americans.
This is not even (in most cases) a sort of ideological racism, but mainly the fact that most Europeans simply have not lived for very long (if at all) side by side with people of different races or cultures - even in countries like the UK and France, the long term (say, one or two generations') multicultural experience has been largely limited to bigger cities and elsewhere it is only a few decades old (if at all). This is very different from the exposure Americans have been getting to "strange" people. You can't simply discount this or expect people to grow accepting over night - it is our natural response to be mistrustful of strangers and most people simply are not sophisticated and intelligent enough to separate this from their rational thoughts. The change can only happen with time. Until then it will be difficult to manage.
Quote from: dps on January 14, 2016, 11:52:52 PM
Quote from: Camerus on January 14, 2016, 11:17:26 PM
There are any number of ways this will play out, from generally successful integration albeit with some (significant) challenges along the way on one end of the spectrum, to significant chaos, instability and peril of the host cultures on the other. Much depends on known unknowns ( :P ) just around the corner, like how many migrants come when the weather begins to warm up again. My own view is that drawing parallels with, say, Chinese immigration is not apples to apples, and that it's rather naive to expect this to result in anything other than, at best, long term social problems and reduction in quality of life for Europeans, but then what do I know?
And my channelling of Rumsfeld was deliberate, as I hope leftists aren't as wrong about the feasibility of this as the right was on Iraq.
If European society is so weak that it can't absorb a million or so refugees, then it deserves to be more than "imperiled"; it needs to be completely overhauled or dismantled.
"A million or so" is what Sweden alone has taken in so far.
The "million or so" is specious. About 1.1m refugees arrived in Germany in 2015 alone. This does not include regular immigration.
Whatever one's opinions on the matter of immigration it is incorrect to talk about "only a million".
Quote from: Jacob on January 14, 2016, 07:45:26 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:52:34 PM
It'll have to be -proverbially, but given the amount that's projected over the next few decades, literally- beaten into them. So whereas - I assume- Zanza expects a relatively bloodless affair I expect something rather worse. Of which Cologne was only the beginning.
So you're basically saying a race war is coming.
More a war of religion.
Indeed, RH
Also: if you remember, most migrants seemed very determined about specific countries they wanted to seek refuge in. To me the only logical explanation to that is they have had contacts, family members there.
And I think this is one of the reasons t has been mostly young men migrating so far: they are the most capable to put up with the hardships, establish themselves in the host country to some degree, so their loved ones can follow them. I think the number of migrants will continue to grow significantly before it starts to dwindle, if it will at all
Quote from: Razgovory on January 14, 2016, 07:46:02 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 05:03:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 14, 2016, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:22:16 PM
incidentally: north america is a nice example of mass-migration not going well for the native population.
Particularly when the migrants bring over infectious diseases that kill off 90% of you.
doesn't really change the fact that mass-migration didn't go well for those that remained.
Probably because it wasn't? The Europeans were migrating to the Spanish Empire or whatever not to the Mayan nation.
Since you accept that mass-migration in the americas didn't go well for the natives, your point is what?
That's not really "mass-migration". The Germans didn't "Migrate" into Belgium in 1914 and 1940 only to "migrate" back after a short time. Migration is like invasion in the same way a kiss on the cheek is like rape.
denial is not just a river in egypt it seems.
Using the native Americans as an example for why modern immigration is bad- :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: / :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:
Quote from: Tyr on January 15, 2016, 06:54:53 AM
Using the native Americans as an example for why modern uncontrolled and sustained mass-immigration is bad- :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: / :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:
corrected that for you. The bleeding is strictly on your account.
Quote from: Malthus on January 14, 2016, 05:22:55 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 14, 2016, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 14, 2016, 04:41:20 PM
In Sweden in the 20th century people could make fun of religion without other people trying to murder them. Now people have to tip-toe around (some major examples of) religion. That's just one example of how Swedish culture has changed, and it's a pretty negative change in my book.
or the Sharia courts in Britain. Not a positive evolution either. Especially not for women. Machteld Zee has done a nice study on it.
As a lawyer, the whole "Sharia Courts!!!" scare is something that really irritates me with its stupidity. :yuk:
what irritates me is how the politically correct are so willing to nourish a viper in their bosom. Even more so given that sharia pisses on those liberal values the politically correct supposedly hold dear.
I don't understand why anyone wastes time talking with Crazy Ivan on this issue. :hmm:
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 15, 2016, 03:55:17 AM
denial is not just a river in egypt it seems.
Is the word "Military invasion" and "migration" the same word in Flemish or something? Cause they aren't in English. It makes you sound like an ignorant bigot as opposed to one who knows what words mean. Keep in mind that if you are serious about your "war of religion" then it's very likely the US military will "migrate" into Belgium and shove missiles up your ass, just like we did when you jackasses decided to rid your self of the "Semites" three generations ago or you know, when the Serbs tried to get rid of the Muslims back in 1990's. We take a real dim view of that behavior.
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2016, 07:43:24 AM
I don't understand why anyone wastes time talking with Crazy Ivan on this issue. :hmm:
That was the Danish political attitude for 20 years, turns out his types do not go away by themselves, they multiply and get angrier.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2016, 07:46:04 AM
Is the word "Military invasion" and "migration" the same word in Flemish or something?
The pilgrims didn't "invade" Massachusetts and that worked out ok for the natives. For about 30 years.
Europe already has had problems with assimilating immigrants in much smaller numbers than they've gotten over the past couple years.
Quote from: Liep on January 15, 2016, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2016, 07:43:24 AM
I don't understand why anyone wastes time talking with Crazy Ivan on this issue. :hmm:
That was the Danish political attitude for 20 years, turns out his types do not go away by themselves, they multiply and get angrier.
Dialogue with him doesn't seem to accomplish anything.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 15, 2016, 07:37:28 AM
what irritates me is how the politically correct are so willing to nourish a viper in their bosom. Even more so given that sharia pisses on those liberal values the politically correct supposedly hold dear.
I don't really care all that much about the political soapboxing, but I'm petty enough to find it irritating when supposed academics so very clearly don't know what the fuck they are talking about in a field I happen to practice in, and use that ignorance to rile up people like yourself. In this you are the victim of sorts - your anger is being stoked by a sham.
Quote from: Malthus on January 15, 2016, 09:31:06 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 15, 2016, 07:37:28 AM
what irritates me is how the politically correct are so willing to nourish a viper in their bosom. Even more so given that sharia pisses on those liberal values the politically correct supposedly hold dear.
I don't really care all that much about the political soapboxing, but I'm petty enough to find it irritating when supposed academics so very clearly don't know what the fuck they are talking about in a field I happen to practice in, and use that ignorance to rile up people like yourself. In this you are the victim of sorts - your anger is being stoked by a sham.
Perhaps too much credit being given to the supposed academics? I have the feeling that he seeks out any evidence to support his already existing anger. After all, his opinions aren't that far removed from his stance on language politics of the 'natives' of his own country.
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2016, 09:50:00 AM
Perhaps too much credit being given to the supposed academics? I have the feeling that he seeks out any evidence to support his already existing anger. After all, his opinions aren't that far removed from his stance on language politics of the 'natives' of his own country.
Fair enough.
All I'm saying is that if I was supervising an articling student and they claimed in a memo to be "confused" by the difference between an appeal and judicial review (and to attempt to make some sort of argument based on that), I'd slap them upside the head in their feedback, not publish their mistake for the whole world to laugh at. ;)
A clear majority of Germans now thinks that Germany can't handle the migrant numbers (60% vs. 46% in December). Similar figures for Merkel personally.
Will be interesting to see how much she'll have to give in to appease her party members. I wrote a couple months ago in this thread that it would eventually get ugly. There are elections in three of Germany's states on March 13th. Let's see if they will act before that or only after.
The right wing AfD which started out as an anti-Euro party but has turned into an anti-immigration party is expected to win double digit support in each of the states. This could mean that they'll establish themselves as a permanent party right of Merkel's conservatives for the first time in postwar history.
In federal polls, Merkel's party still gets about 38% (last election 41%), so I would not expect her to be replaced anytime soon. There are just no alternatives in her party or in the opposition.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic4.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F568ad837e6183e8a0f8b6932-538%2Fscreen-shot-2016-01-04-at-33723-pm.png&hash=d62d993798807c1101775fd911ff27fe2f86d1c9)
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 15, 2016, 07:34:13 AM
Quote from: Tyr on January 15, 2016, 06:54:53 AM
Using the native Americans as an example for why modern uncontrolled and sustained mass-immigration is bad- :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: / :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:
corrected that for you. The bleeding is strictly on your account.
So your hate is based on the typical far right flawed assumptions.
Even were that true, the analogy is still a load of bollocks. What got the native americans wasn't that foreigners were coming in, its that the foreigners were several thousand years more advanced than them and carried a bunch of rather nasty diseases with them.
Isn't it your lot who usually like to make a big deal about how muslims are stuck in medieval times?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2016, 07:46:04 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 15, 2016, 03:55:17 AM
denial is not just a river in egypt it seems.
Is the word "Military invasion" and "migration" the same word in Flemish or something? Cause they aren't in English. It makes you sound like an ignorant bigot as opposed to one who knows what words mean. Keep in mind that if you are serious about your "war of religion" then it's very likely the US military will "migrate" into Belgium and shove missiles up your ass, just like we did when you jackasses decided to rid your self of the "Semites" three generations ago or you know, when the Serbs tried to get rid of the Muslims back in 1990's. We take a real dim view of that behavior.
I think he is right in that successful military invasions are usually followed by migrations.
However, I believe one can define four types of migrations, by using two criteria - whether the migrants are more or less advanced than the indigenous population, and whether the migration is hostile or peaceful. Muslim migration into Europe right now is the latter on both criteria. So if we want to use historical analogies, they should be appropriate - we should compare this to, say, Goth migration into the Roman empire, and not Spanish migration into Mexico.
Quote from: Zanza on January 15, 2016, 10:50:16 AM
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As we can guess from the graphic the Sweden Democrats are well on their way to becoming the biggest party in Sweden. I don't know why for instance the conservative Moderates didn't compromise on immigration and go for the top spot. Instead they gave government to the Reds and Greens.
Quote from: Martinus on January 15, 2016, 01:09:30 PM
So if we want to use historical analogies, they should be appropriate - we should compare this to, say, Goth migration into the Roman empire, and not Spanish migration into Mexico.
I don't think that's a useful analogy as neither the migrating population nor the target host are organized anything like in the analogy.
Europe is not the Roman Empire: they don't have the same strengths, the same weaknesses or the same values.
A horde of refugees is not the same as the Gothic migration which, if I understand correctly, moved with mostly intact communities and political stuctures.
Quote from: Zanza on January 15, 2016, 10:50:16 AM
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It is unclear what this is trying to show. If it is trying to show a relation between refugee impact and populist support then surely it would be more relevant to proportions of refugees to population or GDP rather than absolute numbers. Also "populist parties" is a really vague term.
Also, it's a stretch - Syriza and Podemos are hardly anti-immigration.
The attempts to compare to historical migrations is missing the basic point I was making, which was very specific:
If you think Western, liberal culture is so weak that it cannot withstand immigration, you have a very tepid view of the viability of Western, liberal culture. And I cannot thing of a single instance in history where Western culture was subverted by migration, rather than the migrants largely adopting western liberal culture.
How anyone can argue that migrations between non-western cultures is relevant to that point is beyond me - you cannot make such a comparison without at least implicitly suggesting that in fact western liberal culture is in fact weak and susceptible to regression via migration.
The historical record shows very much the opposite. Even the cases where we note that it has not worked as well as we would like, there are still no examples of where the host western nation has seen any kind of significant cultural reversion.
yli may be right Berk.
But I just can't be that optimistic. I come from a country where the population has been divided between west and east for more than a thousand years, and the westerners always lost, eventually.
Quote from: Berkut on January 15, 2016, 01:34:25 PM
The attempts to compare to historical migrations is missing the basic point I was making, which was very specific:
If you think Western, liberal culture is so weak that it cannot withstand immigration, you have a very tepid view of the viability of Western, liberal culture. And I cannot thing of a single instance in history where Western culture was subverted by migration, rather than the migrants largely adopting western liberal culture.
How anyone can argue that migrations between non-western cultures is relevant to that point is beyond me - you cannot make such a comparison without at least implicitly suggesting that in fact western liberal culture is in fact weak and susceptible to regression via migration.
The historical record shows very much the opposite. Even the cases where we note that it has not worked as well as we would like, there are still no examples of where the host western nation has seen any kind of significant cultural reversion.
As I said above Swedish culture has changed (I think for the worse) because of immigration in the past decades.
Edit:
QuoteIn Sweden in the 20th century people could make fun of religion without other people trying to murder them. Now people have to tip-toe around (some major examples of) religion. That's just one example of how Swedish culture has changed, and it's a pretty negative change in my book.
Quote from: The Brain on January 15, 2016, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 15, 2016, 01:34:25 PM
The attempts to compare to historical migrations is missing the basic point I was making, which was very specific:
If you think Western, liberal culture is so weak that it cannot withstand immigration, you have a very tepid view of the viability of Western, liberal culture. And I cannot thing of a single instance in history where Western culture was subverted by migration, rather than the migrants largely adopting western liberal culture.
How anyone can argue that migrations between non-western cultures is relevant to that point is beyond me - you cannot make such a comparison without at least implicitly suggesting that in fact western liberal culture is in fact weak and susceptible to regression via migration.
The historical record shows very much the opposite. Even the cases where we note that it has not worked as well as we would like, there are still no examples of where the host western nation has seen any kind of significant cultural reversion.
As I said above Swedish culture has changed (I think for the worse) because of immigration in the past decades.
I think anyone objective looking at Swedish culture and comparing it to where it was 30 years ago would conclude that there has not been any meaningful change for the worst.
Specific examples of where people have had their freedom to speak curtailed by threats of violence are certainly concerning, and should be vigorously fought against (as I have contended in the past) but I don't see that as a shift in Swedish culture, so much as a failure to stand up to radicals.
Quote from: Berkut on January 15, 2016, 01:44:05 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 15, 2016, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 15, 2016, 01:34:25 PM
The attempts to compare to historical migrations is missing the basic point I was making, which was very specific:
If you think Western, liberal culture is so weak that it cannot withstand immigration, you have a very tepid view of the viability of Western, liberal culture. And I cannot thing of a single instance in history where Western culture was subverted by migration, rather than the migrants largely adopting western liberal culture.
How anyone can argue that migrations between non-western cultures is relevant to that point is beyond me - you cannot make such a comparison without at least implicitly suggesting that in fact western liberal culture is in fact weak and susceptible to regression via migration.
The historical record shows very much the opposite. Even the cases where we note that it has not worked as well as we would like, there are still no examples of where the host western nation has seen any kind of significant cultural reversion.
As I said above Swedish culture has changed (I think for the worse) because of immigration in the past decades.
I think anyone objective looking at Swedish culture and comparing it to where it was 30 years ago would conclude that there has not been any meaningful change for the worst.
Specific examples of where people have had their freedom to speak curtailed by threats of violence are certainly concerning, and should be vigorously fought against (as I have contended in the past) but I don't see that as a shift in Swedish culture, so much as a failure to stand up to radicals.
Well obviously I'm not gonna argue about Swedish culture with you.
Latest outrage in the media: A public pool in a German town instituted a "Keine Juden Flüchtlinge" policy after some refugee youth sexually assaulted a girl there.
Quote from: Zanza on January 15, 2016, 01:50:19 PM
Latest outrage in the media: A public pool in a German town instituted a "Keine Juden Flüchtlinge" policy after some refugee youth sexually assaulted a girl there.
Is that legal?
Historically, western, liberal culture has been accompanied by economic and technological dominance. Some countries have found a way to catch up on those fronts without liberalizing.
Frankly, even within western society there's been a lot of weakening. Governments are watching people all the time, and increasingly the population is ok with that. The US has held a couple hundred people for over a decade with no trial. Much of Europe criminalizes various forms of politically incorrect speech. There have been a number of cases where democratic states have reverted to something less so- Weimar, Putin's Russia, several South American countries. Our system isn't invulnerable.
Quote from: The Brain on January 15, 2016, 01:52:27 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 15, 2016, 01:50:19 PM
Latest outrage in the media: A public pool in a German town instituted a "Keine Juden Flüchtlinge" policy after some refugee youth sexually assaulted a girl there.
Is that legal?
No idea
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn4.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-944537-galleryV9mobile-jowx-944537.jpg&hash=496ea14316495aeb5193651d980aea2941a73d0f)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 15, 2016, 01:53:30 PMFrankly, even within western society there's been a lot of weakening. Governments are watching people all the time, and increasingly the population is ok with that. The US has held a couple hundred people for over a decade with no trial. Much of Europe criminalizes various forms of politically incorrect speech.
While bad, I am sure you can find worse if you look in decades past in the West. Socially (women, gays, minorities) we've seen huge advances in the West. Despite considerable migration over the last decades.
QuoteThere have been a number of cases where democratic states have reverted to something less so- Weimar, Putin's Russia, several South American countries. Our system isn't invulnerable.
As far as I know none of these reversals had anything to do with migration, but all were staged by domestic radicals. That's why it is important to oppose these.
I was mainly arguing with Berkut's overconfidence, not with immigration or even mass immigration.
And I'd say those advances were about equality- liberty may well have peaked.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 15, 2016, 02:09:27 PM
And I'd say those advances were about equality- liberty may well have peaked.
Fair enough
This wave of immigration is also different in scale (far greater, and possibly with much more to come) and in the hostility of many migrants vis-a-vis the host population versus previous immigration waves. As the Brain pointed out, there have already been reductions in quality of life. It's also taking place in countries that have not historically been immigrant countries.
I think much depends on how the EU responds if another big wave begins come the warmer weather.
Syria has a population of around 17 million people.
Even if every man, woman and child suddenly decided to move to Europe it wouldn't be the destruction of our culture.
That many would certainly fuck things up rather seriously.
But to suggest it is anything close to a population replacement of the 500 million EU.....
What does fluchtlinge mean?
Quote from: Tyr on January 15, 2016, 03:37:39 PM
Syria has a population of around 17 million people.
Even if every man, woman and child suddenly decided to move to Europe it wouldn't be the destruction of our culture.
That many would certainly fuck things up rather seriously.
But to suggest it is anything close to a population replacement of the 500 million EU.....
I don't even feel like bothering to answer that.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 15, 2016, 04:35:33 PM
What does fluchtlinge mean?
Flucht = Flee
Linge = one way to turn a word into a plural denoting a group of people. So, say, were a clan of fearsome vikings descended from you, they might have been known as the Yilings.
Quote from: Martinus on January 15, 2016, 04:51:48 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 15, 2016, 03:37:39 PM
Syria has a population of around 17 million people.
Even if every man, woman and child suddenly decided to move to Europe it wouldn't be the destruction of our culture.
That many would certainly fuck things up rather seriously.
But to suggest it is anything close to a population replacement of the 500 million EU.....
I don't even feel like bothering to answer that.
Strong work, Tyr.
Given past trends and migrations, it would seem reasonable to expect migration levels from Africa & the Middle to Europe of up to 6-7 million migrants a year from Africa and the Middle East for the next 50 years. That alone would effectively increase European population levels by 50% within that time period. Which is going to make integration difficult to say the least.
Quote from: Martinus on January 15, 2016, 01:09:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2016, 07:46:04 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 15, 2016, 03:55:17 AM
denial is not just a river in egypt it seems.
Is the word "Military invasion" and "migration" the same word in Flemish or something? Cause they aren't in English. It makes you sound like an ignorant bigot as opposed to one who knows what words mean. Keep in mind that if you are serious about your "war of religion" then it's very likely the US military will "migrate" into Belgium and shove missiles up your ass, just like we did when you jackasses decided to rid your self of the "Semites" three generations ago or you know, when the Serbs tried to get rid of the Muslims back in 1990's. We take a real dim view of that behavior.
I think he is right in that successful military invasions are usually followed by migrations.
However, I believe one can define four types of migrations, by using two criteria - whether the migrants are more or less advanced than the indigenous population, and whether the migration is hostile or peaceful. Muslim migration into Europe right now is the latter on both criteria. So if we want to use historical analogies, they should be appropriate - we should compare this to, say, Goth migration into the Roman empire, and not Spanish migration into Mexico.
It's absurd to compare the movement of iron age tribes to modern political developments. For one thing, and this is very important, we have very limited knowledge of what happened then. Second Europe is a little more sophisticated in government and knowledge then it was in the dark ages. For instance, most Europeans have internalized where fish come from, and the deciding lawsuits by combat has fallen out of fashion. So, Goths invading Rome or Spaniards sacking Mexico are non starters here. Try to think more along the lines of Yugoslavians fleeing the Balkan wars in the 1990's. What happened then, and what did Europeans do about it?
Quote from: Tamas on January 15, 2016, 01:39:28 PM
yli may be right Berk.
But I just can't be that optimistic. I come from a country where the population has been divided between west and east for more than a thousand years, and the westerners always lost, eventually.
Which ones were the westerners?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2016, 06:30:47 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 15, 2016, 01:39:28 PM
yli may be right Berk.
But I just can't be that optimistic. I come from a country where the population has been divided between west and east for more than a thousand years, and the westerners always lost, eventually.
Which ones were the westerners?
The Austrians.
Quote from: PJL on January 15, 2016, 06:18:17 PM
Given past trends and migrations, it would seem reasonable to expect migration levels from Africa & the Middle to Europe of up to 6-7 million migrants a year from Africa and the Middle East for the next 50 years. That alone would effectively increase European population levels by 50% within that time period. Which is going to make integration difficult to say the least.
We have never had anywhere near that number of migrants from there, so which past trends and migrations do you refer to?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2016, 06:26:37 PM
Try to think more along the lines of Yugoslavians fleeing the Balkan wars in the 1990's. What happened then, and what did Europeans do about it?
Anecdotally I would say they integrated fairly well. I have three colleagues with an "-ic" name. I think they are all from Bosnia.
The one I know best is a female, dressing very chic and the only noticeable thing about her faith is that she doesn't eat pork and doesn't go for lunch breaks during Ramadan. When she speaks to me, she uses high German, but when she speaks to her Bosnian husband, she uses the Swabian dialect of German. At least language wise she is better integrated in Southern Germany than I am...
Schwäbisch... :bleeding: Even the oft-criticised Bavarian is more intelligible.
More importantly, not all Bosnians are muslims. Interesting enough, before the Balkan Wars even most Muslims there were muslim in name only: pork, alcohol and Ramadan only for the big party at the end.
Speaking of a Baden-Württemberg: a 62 year old peace activist from that state sued the State of Bavaria. During the last Security Conference in Munich, Bavarian police stopped their bus (on a way to the protest), searched everyone and took photos of all passengers. The activist said that the police overstepped their boundaries and made her miss the protest.
The judge said that the measures were fine, because there had been reports of possibly violent protestors coming from Baden-Württemberg to Bavaria, although the police neglected to tell the protesters that they were free to go when the procedure was done, causing a delay.
Some activists were among the audience and complained about the harsh treatment by Bavarian police. The judge replied that they shouldn't come to Bavaria then. She added that if she looked at what happened in Cologne, there are clear advantages to living in Bavaria.
Quote from: Syt on January 16, 2016, 06:27:44 AM
Speaking of a Baden-Württemberg: a 62 year old peace activist from that state sued the State of Bavaria. During the last Security Conference in Munich, Bavarian police stopped their bus (on a way to the protest), searched everyone and took photos of all passengers. The activist said that the police overstepped their boundaries and made her miss the protest.
The judge said that the measures were fine, because there had been reports of possibly violent protestors coming from Baden-Württemberg to Bavaria, although the police neglected to tell the protesters that they were free to go when the procedure was done, causing a delay.
Some activists were among the audience and complained about the harsh treatment by Bavarian police. The judge replied that they shouldn't come to Bavaria then. She added that if she looked at what happened in Cologne, there are clear advantages to living in Bavaria.
Sorry, but it's not clear - what side they were on?
So is this "Taharrush" thing an urban myth? I saw it mentioned by someone and there are pages on it on wikipedia (marked for deletion due to bias) but it is, strangely enough, not available in English. Here's the German version (there are also Danish, French and few others).
https://translate.google.pl/translate?hl=pl&sl=en&u=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharrush_gamea&prev=search
:huh:
You link to the English version...
Quote from: Liep on January 16, 2016, 02:57:27 PM
You link to the English version...
Sorry I linked to Polish (not English).
Yes, the google translated version of the english into polish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharrush_gamea
vs.
https://translate.google.pl/translate?hl=pl&sl=en&u=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharrush_gamea&prev=search
Oh that's weird.
#frikadellegate* is trending on Twitter here. A city council ruled that all the public institutions (kindergartens, schools) in the city has to serve pork as part of their offered meals. The reason? We must not bow down to Islam. That was the only reason.
Frikadelle is a pork meatball.
I raised the question yesterday why switzerland doesn't seem to be getting any of this. A friend who pays attention to switzerland said politicians have spoken about this on tv- they're quite relieved about it and say it is down to switzerlands image meaning nobody is tempted.... people assume it's all a frozen snowy wilderness?
Liep- pig farming is a pretty big part of the Danish economy too right?
Quote from: Tyr on January 19, 2016, 02:59:57 AM
I raised the question yesterday why switzerland doesn't seem to be getting any of this. A friend who pays attention to switzerland said politicians have spoken about this on tv- they're quite relieved about it and say it is down to switzerlands image meaning nobody is tempted.... people assume it's all a frozen snowy wilderness?
Liep- pig farming is a pretty big part of the Danish economy too right?
Getting any of what? Anti-immigration politics? They have been on this long before the curve - the popular racist/anti-immigrant poster with black crows tearing a country apart, that is now used in many right wing propaganda across Europe originated in Switzerland. God, must you be so unaware on every single issue?
:rolleyes:
The big refugee influx.
Is Switzerland part of Schengen?
Yes.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Map_of_the_Schengen_Area.svg/1024px-Map_of_the_Schengen_Area.svg.png)
Poor Liechtenstein gets left off of everything.
Quote from: Tyr on January 19, 2016, 02:59:57 AM
I raised the question yesterday why switzerland doesn't seem to be getting any of this. A friend who pays attention to switzerland said politicians have spoken about this on tv- they're quite relieved about it and say it is down to switzerlands image meaning nobody is tempted.... people assume it's all a frozen snowy wilderness?
So is Finland but refugees still come here. :P
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 19, 2016, 04:27:04 AM
Yes.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Map_of_the_Schengen_Area.svg/1024px-Map_of_the_Schengen_Area.svg.png)
What is the dot on the Adriatic coast of Italy?
Most likely San Marino.
Arrogant Canadian. "Your country is tiny therefore I ignore its existence."
Quote from: The Brain on January 19, 2016, 03:22:57 PM
Arrogant Canadian. "Your country is tiny therefore I ignore its existence."
Far from it. I drew attention to the tiny dot on the map. :P
Quote from: Liep on January 18, 2016, 07:31:09 PM
#frikadellegate* is trending on Twitter here. A city council ruled that all the public institutions (kindergartens, schools) in the city has to serve pork as part of their offered meals. The reason? We must not bow down to Islam. That was the only reason.
Frikadelle is a pork meatball.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/19/danish-town-says-pork-must-be-served-at-public-institutions?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
A new online petition for a worthy cause:
QuoteIn order to show how safe current migration is to Europe, particularly regarding the cause of feminism (I reject wholeheartedly the notion that North African and Middle Eastern migrants are unsafe, and rapists), Emma Watson should spend a week's holiday in a Calais migrant camp, without guards of course, to show how safe, and how pro feminism these migrants are.
https://www.change.org/p/emma-watson-spend-one-week-in-a-calais-migrant-camp-for-feminism
The cameras would protect her.
Quote from: Martinus on January 20, 2016, 01:42:25 AM
A new online petition for a worthy cause:
QuoteIn order to show how safe current migration is to Europe, particularly regarding the cause of feminism (I reject wholeheartedly the notion that North African and Middle Eastern migrants are unsafe, and rapists), Emma Watson should spend a week's holiday in a Calais migrant camp, without guards of course, to show how safe, and how pro feminism these migrants are.
https://www.change.org/p/emma-watson-spend-one-week-in-a-calais-migrant-camp-for-feminism
Ok Legbiter
Quote from: Solmyr on January 19, 2016, 07:13:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on January 19, 2016, 02:59:57 AM
I raised the question yesterday why switzerland doesn't seem to be getting any of this. A friend who pays attention to switzerland said politicians have spoken about this on tv- they're quite relieved about it and say it is down to switzerlands image meaning nobody is tempted.... people assume it's all a frozen snowy wilderness?
So is Finland but refugees still come here. :P
:hmm:
Your women are hot?
Refugees like metal?
Switzerland has less welfare state and has made news in recent past with anti-Muslim referendums
I am surprised nobody mentioned that Herr Stasi 2.0 a.k.a Mr Schäuble, has a brilliant new idea: a refugee tax
This would make these so-called refugees even more unpopular...
http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-finance-minister-proposes-petrol-tax-to-fund-refugees/a-18984764 (http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-finance-minister-proposes-petrol-tax-to-fund-refugees/a-18984764)
QuoteGermany's finance minister proposes petrol tax to fund refugees
Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble says an EU-wide tax on petrol could help finance refugees and strengthen the bloc's borders. His comments come after sexual assaults by foreigners in Cologne caused uproar.
"I've said if the funds in the national budgets and the European budget are insufficient, then let us agree to set up, for instance, a tax on a certain amount on each liter of gasoline," Schäuble told the "Süddeustche Zeitung" daily.
"We have to secure Schengen's external borders now. The solution to these problems must not founder due to a limitation of funds," he added. Schäuble went on to say that if all countries were not willing to pay the tax, he would not mind a "coalition of the willing."
Cologne attacks
The finance minister said it was the attacks on women in Cologne on New Year's Eve that had stepped up pressure to find "a solution to the problem of controlling the European Union's external borders." The problem had to be solved at a European level, Schäuble said, adding that not just Germany, but neighboring countries would otherwise suffer the consequences.
Schäuble said he fully supported Chancellor Angela Merkel's efforts to solve the crisis.
The finance ministry has declined to comment on the remarks.
German politicians against 'refugee toll'
Schäuble's colleagues have criticized his proposal. "I'm strictly against any tax increase in light of the good budgetary situation," Julia Kloeckner, Schäuble's colleague and deputy chief of the Christian Democrats, told journalists. Germany currently has a budget surplus of 12.1 billion euros ($13 billion).
The Social Democrats were also against Schäuble's idea, saying they wanted to "hold society together instead of dividing it with a new refugee toll."
More than one million refugees from conflict zones in the Middle East and Africa have arrived in Germany in the past 12 months. State administrations have been struggling to cope with the influx.
Resentment against refugees peaked after around 1,000 men, believed to be immigrants from North Africa and Arab countries, sexually assaulted hundreds of women in Cologne on New Year's Eve.
Wow. The government of Angela Merkel is behaving like that of Margaret Thatcher in its final years.
Edit: Admittedly, I see nothing in the text you quoted that the tax is in any way intended to finance helping the refugees - more like keeping them out.
They could just do what we do, take the money from the foreign aid budget!
Well, that makes mores sense than Germany's approach actually IMO. :P
Turns out Crazy Ivan and the Duke has been right all along. The leader of the Danish Social Democratic Party admits their wrongdoings in immigration and integration politics from the 80's, 90's and 00's.
"We should have listened then to the people warning us about what was happening locally where the refugees was placed"
"We have failed the Danish people and perhaps so failed the refugees even more"
"Now we have to end the passive approach to integration"
I gotta say my views on immigration have been evolving over the last couple of months to more sceptical, too.
Ok, at first I thought this was the Onion article:
QuoteSwedish police will no longer be able to give descriptions of alleged criminals for fear of being seen as racist.
According to an internal letter, police in capital city Stockholm are instructed to refrain from describing suspects' race and nationality, according to news website Speisa.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swedish-police-are-not-allowed-to-give-descriptions-of-alleged-criminals-so-as-not-to-sound-racist-a6810311.html
These "police are looking for" announcements will be a hoot. :D
Quote from: Martinus on January 20, 2016, 06:14:27 AM
Ok, at first I thought this was the Onion article:
QuoteSwedish police will no longer be able to give descriptions of alleged criminals for fear of being seen as racist.
According to an internal letter, police in capital city Stockholm are instructed to refrain from describing suspects' race and nationality, according to news website Speisa.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swedish-police-are-not-allowed-to-give-descriptions-of-alleged-criminals-so-as-not-to-sound-racist-a6810311.html
These "police are looking for" announcements will be a hoot. :D
Oh that's easy.
"The suspect is a bipedal, multicellular, non-arboreal being on the loose."
There, a completely PC way that's not racist, sexist or ableist. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Legbiter on January 20, 2016, 06:26:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 20, 2016, 06:14:27 AM
Ok, at first I thought this was the Onion article:
QuoteSwedish police will no longer be able to give descriptions of alleged criminals for fear of being seen as racist.
According to an internal letter, police in capital city Stockholm are instructed to refrain from describing suspects' race and nationality, according to news website Speisa.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swedish-police-are-not-allowed-to-give-descriptions-of-alleged-criminals-so-as-not-to-sound-racist-a6810311.html
These "police are looking for" announcements will be a hoot. :D
Oh that's easy.
"The suspect is a bipedal, multicellular, non-arboreal being on the loose."
There, a completely PC way that's not racist, sexist or ableist. :thumbsup:
Incorrect. You don't know if *they* may identify as a tree.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 20, 2016, 03:45:06 AM
The cameras would protect her.
A journalist and a documentarist was just attacked by refugees in Calais while filming, so..
Emma Watson would have a lot more cameras. And other people would be holding them.
It's not impossible she'd be attacked, but she'd be safer than most.
The petition specifically calls for her to be without guards. And if you think tv personnel would protect her, it's laughable. The women in Cologne were in the center of a large city.
That petition is so over the top in its wording that it is quite obviously tries to be sarcastic and in fact is looking to see Watson get into trouble in the camp.
Quote from: Martinus on January 20, 2016, 06:14:27 AM
Ok, at first I thought this was the Onion article:
QuoteSwedish police will no longer be able to give descriptions of alleged criminals for fear of being seen as racist.
According to an internal letter, police in capital city Stockholm are instructed to refrain from describing suspects' race and nationality, according to news website Speisa.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swedish-police-are-not-allowed-to-give-descriptions-of-alleged-criminals-so-as-not-to-sound-racist-a6810311.html
These "police are looking for" announcements will be a hoot. :D
Maybe they're just moving onto something like IC codes?
Not "in pursuit of a Nigerian guy" but " in pursuit of a code 5"- someone who by appearance they think is black
Quote from: Tamas on January 20, 2016, 07:23:13 AM
That petition is so over the top in its wording that it is quite obviously tries to be sarcastic and in fact is looking to see Watson get into trouble in the camp.
I have a female friend who has been a volunteer for a couple of stints in refugee camps in Greece and Macedonia and has never had any problem at all. That petition is nonsense.
Quote from: Tamas on January 20, 2016, 07:23:13 AM
That petition is so over the top in its wording that it is quite obviously tries to be sarcastic and in fact is looking to see Watson get into trouble in the camp.
Ya think?
Seen at a recent protest:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12410545_1525592567740963_8055762107439761526_n.jpg?oh=7b7d57a82e850c4ac916d2f6e92a5fa5&oe=57000B02&__gda__=1463745851_6aeaef7458ca0d4a012170e336ee21db)
"Against islamist Jew-Terror in German streets!"
Wait, what? :huh:
Quote from: Syt on January 20, 2016, 10:16:39 AM
"Against islamist Jew-Terror in German streets!"
Wait, what? :huh:
:lol:
I was waiting for some Euros to blame the latest thing on the Jews. :P
On a more serious note - I wonder if this latest brouhaha is having any effect of Euro perceptions of Israel. Bibi must be happy (maybe the only person happy) - 'see how you like living next to 'em' style.
Quote from: Malthus on January 20, 2016, 10:29:05 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 20, 2016, 10:16:39 AM
"Against islamist Jew-Terror in German streets!"
Wait, what? :huh:
:lol:
I was waiting for some Euros to blame the latest thing on the Jews. :P
On a more serious note - I wonder if this latest brouhaha is having any effect of Euro perceptions of Israel. Bibi must be happy (maybe the only person happy) - 'see how you like living next to 'em' style.
Nah, it's mainly different groups that hate Israel and Muslims. Israel hate is really a leftist thing - right wingers hate international Jewish financists and liberal Jews from Hollywood and the like who want to destroy our precious culture, but on Israel they are at least neutral or grudgingly sympathetic (mainly because they kill Arabs).
So, no, if anything, this will only strenghten old prejudices - for the right wingers, because it is quite clear rich liberal NY Jews (Soros is being mentioned very often in this context) are the ones who are stirring up the Muslims in Middle East to destroy Europe, while at the same time emasculating European elites into letting them in - and for left wingers Israel is a clear example of Western imperialism persecuting poor, innocent Muslims.
Sorry, but you guys never get a break. :P
That's realy the "best" part about irrational prejudices - no matter how idiosyncratic they are, people still somehow manage to hold all of them at the same time.
So apparently police in Cologne found paper notes with German-language instructions on what to yell during the mass sex harassment. Combined with earlier suspicions that the entire thing was organized via criminal groups and the fact that similar paper notes were found among Russian-backed Antimaidan protesters in Ukraine, I've read an opinion piece that Russian secret services may be behind the whole thing. :ph34r:
Quote from: Solmyr on January 20, 2016, 12:43:04 PM
So apparently police in Cologne found paper notes with German-language instructions on what to yell during the mass sex harassment. Combined with earlier suspicions that the entire thing was organized via criminal groups and the fact that similar paper notes were found among Russian-backed Antimaidan protesters in Ukraine, I've read an opinion piece that Russian secret services may be behind the whole thing. :ph34r:
"Help! Help!"? :unsure:
Quote from: Martinus on January 20, 2016, 06:14:27 AM
Ok, at first I thought this was the Onion article:
QuoteSwedish police will no longer be able to give descriptions of alleged criminals for fear of being seen as racist.
According to an internal letter, police in capital city Stockholm are instructed to refrain from describing suspects' race and nationality, according to news website Speisa.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swedish-police-are-not-allowed-to-give-descriptions-of-alleged-criminals-so-as-not-to-sound-racist-a6810311.html
These "police are looking for" announcements will be a hoot. :D
The police are taking a beating in the "which organizations do you trust?" polls. And rightfully so (the stuff above isn't the major stuff), I don't know what the fuck they're thinking. I'd say fuck da police but that would be cultural appropriation.
Quote from: The Brain on January 20, 2016, 12:44:03 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on January 20, 2016, 12:43:04 PM
So apparently police in Cologne found paper notes with German-language instructions on what to yell during the mass sex harassment. Combined with earlier suspicions that the entire thing was organized via criminal groups and the fact that similar paper notes were found among Russian-backed Antimaidan protesters in Ukraine, I've read an opinion piece that Russian secret services may be behind the whole thing. :ph34r:
"Help! Help!"? :unsure:
I meant stuff for the ones doing the harassing to yell.
German-language article here, perhaps someone can tell us better what it says: http://www.ksta.de/koeln/sote-deutsch-arabischer-uebersetzungs-zettel,15187530,33480596.html
QuoteA Cologne imam has said the victims of the New Years Eve mob sex attacks had themselves to blame because they wore perfume.
Sami Abu-Yusuf added that he was not surprised the girls were sexually assaulted, groped and raped, because of the way they dressed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3408033/Muslim-cleric-says-Cologne-sex-attacks-victims-fault-wore-PERFUME.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3408033/Muslim-cleric-says-Cologne-sex-attacks-victims-fault-wore-PERFUME.html)
Well, Cologne is famous for its imams now. I remember hearing back then about the so-called Caliph of Cologne, another "refugee".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metin_Kaplan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metin_Kaplan)
QuoteMetin Kaplan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Metin Kaplan (born November 14, 1952, in the Turkish province of Erzurum) is the leader of the radical Islamist movement Kalifatsstaat ("caliphate state") which is based in Cologne, Germany.
Kalifatsstaat[edit]
Kaplan, who was prosecuted as an enemy of the state in Turkey and faced the death penalty, came to Germany in 1983 as a refugee, together with his father, Cemaleddin Kaplan (also known as Cemaleddin Hacaoglu[1]), who was a leading figure in Turkish Islamist circles in Germany. His father ran two publications: "Teblig" and "Ummet".[1]
After his father's death in 1995, Metin Kaplan became leader of the Kalifatsstaat, a movement created by his father in the 1980s.[1]
The movement's stated goal is to overthrow the government of Turkey and establish an Islamist state in the country. The movement is also known as "Union of Islamic Associations and Communities"[2] and is on Turkey's official list of terrorist organizations as "Hilafet Devleti" (literally: "caliphate state").[3][1] The self-styled "Caliph of Cologne" chose the city of Cologne as his residence. After being closely watched by the German Verfassungsschutz for several years, the movement was outlawed in 2001.[4]
At its highest point, the group claimed to have 800 to 1300 members, mostly in North Rhine-Westphalia.[1]
The movement has published a text called "The New World Order" which contains:[5]
Our goal is the control of Islam over everyday life. In other words, the Koran should become the constitution, the Islamic system of law should become the law, and Islam should become the state... Is it possible to combine Islam with democracy and the layman's system on which it is based? For this question only one answer exists, and that is a resounding "NO!"
Arrest[edit]
His rival Ibrahim Sofu was murdered in 1997. Kaplan was convicted by a German court of solicitation of murder and spent four years in jail.[6]
In May 2004, after reassurances that he would not be tortured if he was extradited to Turkey, a German court rescinded his refugee status and authorised his extradition to Turkey.[7] Shortly after the court's decision, before German police could arrest him, Kaplan disappeared from Cologne. After the court decision was temporarily suspended, Kaplan reappeared on May 31, claiming to have been sick during his disappearance.
On October 12, the Verwaltungsgericht of Cologne decided that Kaplan could be extradited despite a pending appeal to the Bundesverwaltungsgericht in Leipzig. He was arrested in an internet cafe in Cologne and brought to the Düsseldorf airport, where a chartered Lear Jet took him to Istanbul. On arrival he was immediately arrested by Turkish police and taken to prison.[8] This extradition case is unusual because governments usually refuse to extradite people to face trial for political crimes such as treason and espionage.
Kaplan's trial started on 20 December 2004. In 2005, Kaplan was convicted of attempting to overthrow the constitution and treason. He was sentenced to aggravated life imprisonment. During the trial, Kaplan was confined to the high security prison of Tekirdağ. Turkish authorities have accused him of plotting a terrorist attack against the Turkish government in 1998 and a plot to attack the Anitkabir by flying a Cessna laden with explosives into it.[6] Kaplan conceded that he believes the state of Turkey should be replaced with an Islamist state, but denies ever having planned to resort to violent means.
Denmark is criticised by UN Human Rights' Council. Over 80 countries (including Saudi Arabia) are calling Denmark xenophobic and are expressing concern over racism in our media. They all recommend that the UN investigate whether or not we're not breaking international conventions with the new asylum laws.
My guess is that our government couldn't care less. Latest suggestion from government support party Liberal Alliance is that we simply disregard the UN and deny every asylum application for at least 2 years.
Quote from: Legbiter on January 21, 2016, 05:00:19 AM
QuoteA Cologne imam has said the victims of the New Years Eve mob sex attacks had themselves to blame because they wore perfume.
Sami Abu-Yusuf added that he was not surprised the girls were sexually assaulted, groped and raped, because of the way they dressed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3408033/Muslim-cleric-says-Cologne-sex-attacks-victims-fault-wore-PERFUME.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3408033/Muslim-cleric-says-Cologne-sex-attacks-victims-fault-wore-PERFUME.html)
Well yeah you knew that was coming.
No less surprising than some American hate preacher blaming gays for a tornado.
Quote from: Liep on January 19, 2016, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 18, 2016, 07:31:09 PM
#frikadellegate* is trending on Twitter here. A city council ruled that all the public institutions (kindergartens, schools) in the city has to serve pork as part of their offered meals. The reason? We must not bow down to Islam. That was the only reason.
Frikadelle is a pork meatball.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/19/danish-town-says-pork-must-be-served-at-public-institutions?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
One institution is now being accused of not complying because they served turkey bacon instead of real bacon for one dish. :lol:
Quote from: Liep on January 21, 2016, 09:37:45 AM
No less surprising than some American hate preacher blaming gays for a tornado.
Now now that is unfair. We have perfectly mainstream politicians who do that.
If this was some kind of personal attack on me for HOW DARE I JUDGE TEH ISLAM I think you may have missed your mark there.
We call many of your mainstream politicians for hate preachers over here. :P
I was merely dragging Amerikkka into the discussion because you too have religious assholes and thought I saw a similarity.
Quote from: Liep on January 21, 2016, 09:51:38 AM
I was merely dragging Amerikkka into the discussion because you too have religious assholes and thought I saw a similarity.
Oh indeed. How do you think I knew this was coming? :P
Quote from: Valmy on January 21, 2016, 09:27:23 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on January 21, 2016, 05:00:19 AM
QuoteA Cologne imam has said the victims of the New Years Eve mob sex attacks had themselves to blame because they wore perfume.
Sami Abu-Yusuf added that he was not surprised the girls were sexually assaulted, groped and raped, because of the way they dressed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3408033/Muslim-cleric-says-Cologne-sex-attacks-victims-fault-wore-PERFUME.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3408033/Muslim-cleric-says-Cologne-sex-attacks-victims-fault-wore-PERFUME.html)
Well yeah you knew that was coming.
Seems the cleric and the xenophobes are in a agreement. The Germans had it coming, one for letting the Muslims in and one for women wearing perfume. Now all we need is one of the refugees to stab a mayoral candidate in the neck and the Euros and the Refugees will be equal.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2016, 09:54:55 AM
Seems the cleric and the xenophobes are in a agreement. The Germans had it coming, one for letting the Muslims in and one for women wearing perfume.
So they are in agreement because they think totally different things that are not the same? Hurray for false equivalency nonsense!
QuoteNow all we need is one of the refugees to stab a mayoral candidate in the neck and the Euros and the Refugees will be equal.
Equal in what? WTF are you talking about?
Quote from: Valmy on January 21, 2016, 10:07:22 AM
QuoteNow all we need is one of the refugees to stab a mayoral candidate in the neck and the Euros and the Refugees will be equal.
Equal in what? WTF are you talking about?
A deranged right winger stabbed a left wing mayor in the neck some months back iirc if that makes Raz' crazy comment any clearer.
Quote from: Liep on January 21, 2016, 09:42:08 AM
Quote from: Liep on January 19, 2016, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 18, 2016, 07:31:09 PM
#frikadellegate* is trending on Twitter here. A city council ruled that all the public institutions (kindergartens, schools) in the city has to serve pork as part of their offered meals. The reason? We must not bow down to Islam. That was the only reason.
Frikadelle is a pork meatball.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/19/danish-town-says-pork-must-be-served-at-public-institutions?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
One institution is now being accused of not complying because they served turkey bacon instead of real bacon for one dish. :lol:
What happens if there are some native Danish kids who are vegetarians? :unsure:
That's undanish. :mad:
Seriously though, they can serve salads and such, but the main dish has to be from "traditional danish food culture" whatever the fuck that is.
Quote from: Solmyr on January 21, 2016, 10:53:24 AM
Quote from: Liep on January 21, 2016, 09:42:08 AM
Quote from: Liep on January 19, 2016, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 18, 2016, 07:31:09 PM
#frikadellegate* is trending on Twitter here. A city council ruled that all the public institutions (kindergartens, schools) in the city has to serve pork as part of their offered meals. The reason? We must not bow down to Islam. That was the only reason.
Frikadelle is a pork meatball.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/19/danish-town-says-pork-must-be-served-at-public-institutions?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
One institution is now being accused of not complying because they served turkey bacon instead of real bacon for one dish. :lol:
What happens if there are some native Danish kids who are vegetarians? :unsure:
Or... *gasp* ...jews? :P
I recall going to Copenhagen, and when I looked at "traditional Danish food" it was pretty much the same as South of the border. Not to mention that in our malls you would have Danish Hot Dog stands and sometimes Danish ice cream.
Quote from: The Larch on January 21, 2016, 11:04:24 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on January 21, 2016, 10:53:24 AM
Quote from: Liep on January 21, 2016, 09:42:08 AM
Quote from: Liep on January 19, 2016, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 18, 2016, 07:31:09 PM
#frikadellegate* is trending on Twitter here. A city council ruled that all the public institutions (kindergartens, schools) in the city has to serve pork as part of their offered meals. The reason? We must not bow down to Islam. That was the only reason.
Frikadelle is a pork meatball.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/19/danish-town-says-pork-must-be-served-at-public-institutions?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
One institution is now being accused of not complying because they served turkey bacon instead of real bacon for one dish. :lol:
What happens if there are some native Danish kids who are vegetarians? :unsure:
Or... *gasp* ...jews? :P
I really doubt that there are any Jews in Randers.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 21, 2016, 05:36:03 AM
Well, Cologne is famous for its imams now. I remember hearing back then about the so-called Caliph of Cologne, another "refugee".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metin_Kaplan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metin_Kaplan)
QuoteMetin Kaplan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Metin Kaplan (born November 14, 1952, in the Turkish province of Erzurum) is the leader of the radical Islamist movement Kalifatsstaat ("caliphate state") which is based in Cologne, Germany.
Kalifatsstaat[edit]
Kaplan, who was prosecuted as an enemy of the state in Turkey and faced the death penalty, came to Germany in 1983 as a refugee, together with his father, Cemaleddin Kaplan (also known as Cemaleddin Hacaoglu[1]), who was a leading figure in Turkish Islamist circles in Germany. His father ran two publications: "Teblig" and "Ummet".[1]
After his father's death in 1995, Metin Kaplan became leader of the Kalifatsstaat, a movement created by his father in the 1980s.[1]
The movement's stated goal is to overthrow the government of Turkey and establish an Islamist state in the country. The movement is also known as "Union of Islamic Associations and Communities"[2] and is on Turkey's official list of terrorist organizations as "Hilafet Devleti" (literally: "caliphate state").[3][1] The self-styled "Caliph of Cologne" chose the city of Cologne as his residence. After being closely watched by the German Verfassungsschutz for several years, the movement was outlawed in 2001.[4]
At its highest point, the group claimed to have 800 to 1300 members, mostly in North Rhine-Westphalia.[1]
The movement has published a text called "The New World Order" which contains:[5]
Our goal is the control of Islam over everyday life. In other words, the Koran should become the constitution, the Islamic system of law should become the law, and Islam should become the state... Is it possible to combine Islam with democracy and the layman's system on which it is based? For this question only one answer exists, and that is a resounding "NO!"
Arrest[edit]
His rival Ibrahim Sofu was murdered in 1997. Kaplan was convicted by a German court of solicitation of murder and spent four years in jail.[6]
In May 2004, after reassurances that he would not be tortured if he was extradited to Turkey, a German court rescinded his refugee status and authorised his extradition to Turkey.[7] Shortly after the court's decision, before German police could arrest him, Kaplan disappeared from Cologne. After the court decision was temporarily suspended, Kaplan reappeared on May 31, claiming to have been sick during his disappearance.
On October 12, the Verwaltungsgericht of Cologne decided that Kaplan could be extradited despite a pending appeal to the Bundesverwaltungsgericht in Leipzig. He was arrested in an internet cafe in Cologne and brought to the Düsseldorf airport, where a chartered Lear Jet took him to Istanbul. On arrival he was immediately arrested by Turkish police and taken to prison.[8] This extradition case is unusual because governments usually refuse to extradite people to face trial for political crimes such as treason and espionage.
Kaplan's trial started on 20 December 2004. In 2005, Kaplan was convicted of attempting to overthrow the constitution and treason. He was sentenced to aggravated life imprisonment. During the trial, Kaplan was confined to the high security prison of Tekirdağ. Turkish authorities have accused him of plotting a terrorist attack against the Turkish government in 1998 and a plot to attack the Anitkabir by flying a Cessna laden with explosives into it.[6] Kaplan conceded that he believes the state of Turkey should be replaced with an Islamist state, but denies ever having planned to resort to violent means.
Why the hell hasn't he been deported back to Turkey yet?
Reread last two paragraphs.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.livememe.com%2Fmxqvia_4.jpg&hash=f5dcee2972eec1ae1ed1e5cdd02bd57059d2bb70)
Quote from: Valmy on January 21, 2016, 10:07:22 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2016, 09:54:55 AM
Seems the cleric and the xenophobes are in a agreement. The Germans had it coming, one for letting the Muslims in and one for women wearing perfume.
So they are in agreement because they think totally different things that are not the same? Hurray for false equivalency nonsense!
QuoteNow all we need is one of the refugees to stab a mayoral candidate in the neck and the Euros and the Refugees will be equal.
Equal in what? WTF are you talking about?
Both this cleric and the xenophobes believe women who were assaulted by Muslim is caused by actions of westerners. They differ in what those actions are but the blame is rests in the same place. One of the great protectors of women who was concerned about the barbaric foreigners stabbed the mayor in the throat over this issue. If the Refugees start political assassination attempts then they and the Crazy Ivans and Grallons will be on equal footing. Right now, the Muslims need to be bit more depraved to keep up European hard right.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2016, 04:36:19 PM
Both this cleric and the xenophobes believe women who were assaulted by Muslim is caused by actions of westerners.
He is saying the exact same thing that right wing fundy nutcases like him have said forever.
QuoteThey differ in what those actions are but the blame is rests in the same place.
No, they blame different actions by different people. Not equivalent at all.
QuoteOne of the great protectors of women who was concerned about the barbaric foreigners stabbed the mayor in the throat over this issue. If the Refugees start political assassination attempts then they and the Crazy Ivans and Grallons will be on equal footing. Right now, the Muslims need to be bit more depraved to keep up European hard right.
Well good luck to them I say.
However I was just commenting on this one crazy dude not all European Muslims, just as I don't think Crazy Ivan has stabbed anybody...
They blame the same people, those evil lefties.
Quote from: Legbiter on January 21, 2016, 05:00:19 AM
QuoteA Cologne imam has said the victims of the New Years Eve mob sex attacks had themselves to blame because they wore perfume.
Sami Abu-Yusuf added that he was not surprised the girls were sexually assaulted, groped and raped, because of the way they dressed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3408033/Muslim-cleric-says-Cologne-sex-attacks-victims-fault-wore-PERFUME.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3408033/Muslim-cleric-says-Cologne-sex-attacks-victims-fault-wore-PERFUME.html)
And he probably expresses how many people coming from the same culture as he think. What boggles my mind is why so many leftists and liberals simply refuse to acknowledge that simple fact - people brought up in different cultures have often vastly different views on things, and such views are deeply ingrained and "logical" within their cultural context. The belief that such views can change quickly, simply because of exposure to another culture, is extremely naive. And saying that criminal law is a sufficient tool of dealing with deviancy that is deeply culturally ingrained in a certain demographic is also quite wrong - criminal law is an efficient tool only when it is supported by the majority (so deviants are singled out and ostracised) - where it goes against dominant cultural beliefs of an entire community, the only way to enforce it is with extreme repression.
Quote from: Liep on January 21, 2016, 09:51:38 AM
We call many of your mainstream politicians for hate preachers over here. :P
I was merely dragging Amerikkka into the discussion because you too have religious assholes and thought I saw a similarity.
I guess the real question is how representative of their respective religious communities these preachers are, though.
Bill Maher, for example, was raised Roman Catholic. He now has a weekly show where he mercilessly ridicules and lampoons Christian hate preachers who blame gays for tornados.
I guess now all we need to do is to find an ex-Muslim apostate comedian who does the same to Muslim hate preachers (and preferably one that has never been assaulted with anything but a strongly worded letter and does not live with 24/7 police protection) and we could sleep safe knowing that your equivalency has worked. :)
We have still-Muslims comedians who ridicules Muslim hate preachers. Is that close enough? And I'm not trying to prove any equivalence between Christian or Muslim hate preachers or the respective people who think they're on to something, I'm just saying they're both there.
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2016, 01:49:33 AM
... What boggles my mind is why so many leftists and liberals simply refuse to acknowledge that simple fact - ...
It's called indoctrination - something both religions and ideologies use extensively.
G.
Quote from: Liep on January 22, 2016, 04:34:44 AM
We have still-Muslims comedians who ridicules Muslim hate preachers. Is that close enough? And I'm not trying to prove any equivalence between Christian or Muslim hate preachers or the respective people who think they're on to something, I'm just saying they're both there.
Nah, not even close - it's being ex-Muslim that gets you the death sentence.
Quote from: Grallon on January 22, 2016, 06:51:04 AM
It's called indoctrination - something both religions and ideologies use extensively.
I don't know. In the past when we had the evil invading ethnic group or whatever it turned out to be nonsense. The Chinese were supposed to be incapable of being good citizens because they were so brainwashed by their culture of asiatic subservience and so forth. So, much like the boy that cried wolf, eventually you take these sorts of claims with some skepticism. Knowing many Muslims who are my personal friends also doesn't help me jump on this bandwagon. Also I have an overwhelming confidence in the power of 'Murica to assimilate people.
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2016, 09:02:19 AM
Also I have an overwhelming confidence in the power of 'Murica to assimilate people.
We can co-op anything.
This report on "How to be Finnish" classes for immigrants sounds initially almost like a "Mind Your Language" type farce but seems to be doing the trick of addressing head-on some assumptions that the politically correct lobby might deem racist.
Quote"So in Finland," she says softly, "you can't buy a wife. A woman will only be your wife if she wants to be - because here women are men's equals."
Quote"But you can go out to the disco with a woman here," adds Johanna brightly. "Although remember, even if she dances with you very closely and is wearing a short skirt, that doesn't mean she wants to have sex with you."
A Somali teenager pulls his woolly hat over his ears and cradles his head in his hands as if his brain can't cope with all this new information.
"This is a very liberal country," he says incredulously. "We have a lot to learn. In my country if you make sexy with a woman you are killed!" He turns to his neighbour, a Malian man of a similar age to gauge his reaction.
"It's quite amazing," the Malian nods. "In my country a woman should not go out without her husband or brother."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35353310 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35353310)
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2016, 09:02:19 AM
I don't know. In the past when we had the evil invading ethnic group or whatever it turned out to be nonsense. The Chinese were supposed to be incapable of being good citizens because they were so brainwashed by their culture of asiatic subservience and so forth. So, much like the boy that cried wolf, eventually you take these sorts of claims with some skepticism. Knowing many Muslims who are my personal friends also doesn't help me jump on this bandwagon. Also I have an overwhelming confidence in the power of 'Murica to assimilate people.
Europe is in a very different situation than the US. They've all embraced the detestable multikulti doctrine to one degree or another -which the US haven't. And one of its precepts is to *not* try to assimilate people from other cultures since theirs is just as good and valid as yours. Again something Americans do not experience since you are collectively very proud of your own culture and do not apologize for its existence. So they are faced with a torrent of refugees and are conditioned to not protest the fact; actually their elites are forever trying to guilt trip Europeans for wanting to protect their own heritage.
Once again because multikulti states that nationalism is inherently evil. Something we Quebecers know very well seeing how the Anglos in Canada have embraced the same cult with a vengance - although for different reasons. In Europe they were traumatized by the 2 world wars - here its main purpose is twofold: establish a distinction between Canada and the US and destroy the French-Canadian nation by diluting it among a myriad of other cultures who are all equal... one minority among others. Canadians like to see themselves as morally superior to everyone. It's a form of compensation for lacking both a clear national identity (when compared to us in Quebec) and the power of their mighty southern neighbor.
So in short it doesn't mean that the arguments which do not apply in the US' case are invalid when considering what's happening in Europe.
G.
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2016, 01:58:55 AM
Quote from: Liep on January 21, 2016, 09:51:38 AM
We call many of your mainstream politicians for hate preachers over here. :P
I was merely dragging Amerikkka into the discussion because you too have religious assholes and thought I saw a similarity.
I guess the real question is how representative of their respective religious communities these preachers are, though.
Bill Maher, for example, was raised Roman Catholic. He now has a weekly show where he mercilessly ridicules and lampoons Christian hate preachers who blame gays for tornados.
I guess now all we need to do is to find an ex-Muslim apostate comedian who does the same to Muslim hate preachers (and preferably one that has never been assaulted with anything but a strongly worded letter and does not live with 24/7 police protection) and we could sleep safe knowing that your equivalency has worked. :)
I think it would be rather cruel to inflict an anti-vaxxer on the Muslim world. They have enough conspiracy theories as it is.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 22, 2016, 12:46:26 PM
I think it would be rather cruel to inflict an anti-vaxxer on the Muslim world. They have enough conspiracy theories as it is.
I would be shocked if they do not already have tons of those running around claiming the CIA or whatever is using them to destroy Muslims. Some insanity is multi-cultural.
Wait is Maher an anti-vaxxer? Damn.
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2016, 12:47:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 22, 2016, 12:46:26 PM
I think it would be rather cruel to inflict an anti-vaxxer on the Muslim world. They have enough conspiracy theories as it is.
I would be shocked if they do not already have tons of those running around claiming the CIA or whatever is using them to destroy Muslims. Some insanity is multi-cultural.
of course they have, it's why Polio just won't die.
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2016, 12:47:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 22, 2016, 12:46:26 PM
I think it would be rather cruel to inflict an anti-vaxxer on the Muslim world. They have enough conspiracy theories as it is.
I would be shocked if they do not already have tons of those running around claiming the CIA or whatever is using them to destroy Muslims. Some insanity is multi-cultural.
Wait is Maher an anti-vaxxer? Damn.
They have those in Pakistan at least :
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/deadly-blast-hits-anti-polio-centre-pakistan-160113044540957.html
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2016, 09:02:19 AM
Quote from: Grallon on January 22, 2016, 06:51:04 AM
It's called indoctrination - something both religions and ideologies use extensively.
I don't know. In the past when we had the evil invading ethnic group or whatever it turned out to be nonsense. The Chinese were supposed to be incapable of being good citizens because they were so brainwashed by their culture of asiatic subservience and so forth. So, much like the boy that cried wolf, eventually you take these sorts of claims with some skepticism. Knowing many Muslims who are my personal friends also doesn't help me jump on this bandwagon. Also I have an overwhelming confidence in the power of 'Murica to assimilate people.
Err, you do realise we are talking about Europe, right? It's even in the fucking thread title.
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2016, 02:26:38 PM
Err, you do realise we are talking about Europe, right? It's even in the fucking thread title.
Oh FFS. We have too many different threads where we are discussing the same thing.
But anyway I think our experience is at least instructive. We have panicked numerous time about how this latest rush of immigrants was going to lead to the doom of the Republic and it always turned out fine.
Quote from: Brazen on January 22, 2016, 11:54:46 AM
This report on "How to be Finnish" classes for immigrants sounds initially almost like a "Mind Your Language" type farce but seems to be doing the trick of addressing head-on some assumptions that the politically correct lobby might deem racist.
Quote"So in Finland," she says softly, "you can't buy a wife. A woman will only be your wife if she wants to be - because here women are men's equals."
Quote"But you can go out to the disco with a woman here," adds Johanna brightly. "Although remember, even if she dances with you very closely and is wearing a short skirt, that doesn't mean she wants to have sex with you."
A Somali teenager pulls his woolly hat over his ears and cradles his head in his hands as if his brain can't cope with all this new information.
"This is a very liberal country," he says incredulously. "We have a lot to learn. In my country if you make sexy with a woman you are killed!" He turns to his neighbour, a Malian man of a similar age to gauge his reaction.
"It's quite amazing," the Malian nods. "In my country a woman should not go out without her husband or brother."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35353310 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35353310)
The end of the article is not very hopeful, is it?
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2016, 12:47:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 22, 2016, 12:46:26 PM
I think it would be rather cruel to inflict an anti-vaxxer on the Muslim world. They have enough conspiracy theories as it is.
I would be shocked if they do not already have tons of those running around claiming the CIA or whatever is using them to destroy Muslims. Some insanity is multi-cultural.
Wait is Maher an anti-vaxxer? Damn.
He isn't an anti-vaxxer. Raz is, as is his wont, lying. Maher believes that some of the vaccines like, flu vaccines or vaccines for measles (not polio!) are unnecessary and are being pushed by big pharma (I don't agree with him on that - flu vaccines have worked very well for me) - but he definitely does not believe the "vaccines cause autism" or any similar bullshit. He has clarified this on the show several times.
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2016, 02:29:42 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2016, 02:26:38 PM
Err, you do realise we are talking about Europe, right? It's even in the fucking thread title.
Oh FFS. We have too many different threads where we are discussing the same thing.
But anyway I think our experience is at least instructive. We have panicked numerous time about how this latest rush of immigrants was going to lead to the doom of the Republic and it always turned out fine.
Yeah but you have a very different concept of nationality than we do. I am not saying it is a good thing for us but it's just how we roll - as I said in this thread before, it's a bit like you and your gun culture/second amendment shit. It's dysfunctional but just won't go away.
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2016, 02:33:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2016, 12:47:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 22, 2016, 12:46:26 PM
I think it would be rather cruel to inflict an anti-vaxxer on the Muslim world. They have enough conspiracy theories as it is.
I would be shocked if they do not already have tons of those running around claiming the CIA or whatever is using them to destroy Muslims. Some insanity is multi-cultural.
Wait is Maher an anti-vaxxer? Damn.
He isn't an anti-vaxxer. Raz is, as is his wont, lying. Maher believes that some of the vaccines like, flu vaccines or vaccines for measles (not polio!) are unnecessary and are being pushed by big pharma (I don't agree with him on that - flu vaccines have worked very well for me) - but he definitely does not believe the "vaccines cause autism" or any similar bullshit. He has clarified this on the show several times.
Nice try, and Maher has backtracked a bit, but his statements can still be found on the internet.
QuoteKING: Worried about Avian flu?
MAHER: Not the least. You know my theory about health.
KING: What?
MAHER: Well, we've talked about it. I'm not into western medicine. That to me is a complete scare tactic. It just shows you, you can...
KING: You mean you don't get a -- you don't get a flu shot?
MAHER: A flu shot is the worst thing you can do.
KING: Why? MAHER: Because it's got -- it's got mercury.
KING: It prevents flu.
MAHER: It doesn't prevent. First of all, that's...
KING: I haven't had the flu in 25 years since I've been taking a flu shot.
MAHER: Well, I hate to tell you, Larry, but if you have a flu shot for more than five years in a row, there's ten times the likelihood that you'll get Alzheimer's disease. I would stop getting your...
KING: What did you say?
MAHER: That went better in rehearsal but it was still good. Absolutely, no the defense against disease is to have a strong immune system. A flu shot just compromises your immune system.
KING: So you don't take any western medicine, don't take an aspirin?
MAHER: Never, an aspirin no. Thousands of people die from aspirin every year.
KING: How do you treat illness?
MAHER: I promise you that if you get a headache the reason for that headache is not aspirin deficiency. The reason...
KING: No, of course not.
MAHER: Right, so you're taking -- so it's not...
KING: Something to take the pain away. Why is that bad?
MAHER: But why don't you find out the real root of that pain?
KING: Well, while you're finding take the aspirin.
MAHER: But that's what we do. We have immediate cures that address the symptom and not the root cause of anything. I have no worries about bird flu whatsoever. First of all, it's not going to happen. Second of all, the fact that it is mutating shows that if you did come up with a vaccine tomorrow, it wouldn't be effective against the disease when the disease comes because the disease is always morphing and mutating. It's just a way to funnel money into the pharmaceutical companies. Follow the money. You'll find out where the bird flu is.
KING: You wouldn't say the Salk vaccine was a bad idea.
MAHER: That's somewhat of a different case, yes.
KING: Polio was eliminated. MAHER: Yes but, you know, there are many books out that will -- that will -- and I'm not well enough versed on it to talk about it that will indicate that there are other reasons why it was.
And a lot of diseases that have been they say, whoa, this was eliminated because of a vaccine, they find out well no actually the country got toilets and that's what happened.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/15/lkl.01.html
He's also a anti-GM food nut.
I'm anti-GM food too. :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2016, 02:56:47 PM
I'm anti-GM food too. :huh:
:lol: Yeah, but we already knew that you were an idiot. I didn't know you were that kind of nut. Anyway, I got posted part of an interview were he says he doesn't believe in Western medicine and thinks that Flu shots cause Alzheimer's disease. I think I proved my point here.
Oh noes! Vaccines have mercury!
And some food has iron so I guess it is the same as getting chopped up by a broadsword.
A person who doesn't believe in Western medicine is a moran.
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2016, 02:35:08 PM
Yeah but you have a very different concept of nationality than we do. I am not saying it is a good thing for us but it's just how we roll - as I said in this thread before, it's a bit like you and your gun culture/second amendment shit. It's dysfunctional but just won't go away.
Yes I know. The entire point of Denmark is to be a homeland for the Danish people. But also remember I was talking to Grallon who comes from a country closer to mine.
Quote from: The Brain on January 22, 2016, 03:05:49 PM
A person who doesn't believe in Western medicine is a moran.
Corporations are involved therefore it is all a conspiracy. Or something.
Quote from: Valmy on January 22, 2016, 03:05:10 PM
Oh noes! Vaccines have mercury!
And some food has iron so I guess it is the same as getting chopped up by a broadsword.
It's like when some people cry "OMG the sweetener in Coke Zero creates these toxins in your body during digestion!"
Yes, correct, but the same toxins are produced by your digestive system in much larger quantities if you eat fruits and vegetables.
PegidaDK is demonstrating today in Copenhagen. They invited the leader of PegidaUK to make a speech and I think it's titled "For Freedom" and is about warning Denmark against accepting Sharia Law.
Police is there because obviously the "anti-fascists" and other crazy people who just wants a fight will be there throwing stuff at the right wingers.
When will the left learn that it'll harm these right wing nutters more to just let them hold their demonstration and then be ridiculed in the news later in the evening because only 30 people showed up. :(
About 30 people showed up, there are both more police and more "anti-fascists" and the latter two are now fighting.
Quote from: Liep on January 23, 2016, 09:25:14 AM
About 30 people showed up, there are both more police and more "anti-fascists" and the latter two are now fighting.
So why don't the leftist hold pro-immigration rallies,then the fascists will turn up and fight the police instead. :cool:
Better still, the police could hold a 'We're bored with this' demo and then the leftists and fascists would turn up and fight each other instead. :D
Quote from: Martinus on January 22, 2016, 02:30:13 PM
Quote"But you can go out to the disco with a woman here," adds Johanna brightly. "Although remember, even if she dances with you very closely and is wearing a short skirt, that doesn't mean she wants to have sex with you."
The end of the article is not very hopeful, is it?
Considering even native Finnish men still have trouble understanding this, I think everyone is mostly on the same line. :P
Some neo-nazis under the name of "Soldiers of Odin" organized street patrols in some towns to "keep the peace" (in reality to keep immigrants intimidated). So of course, some people organized a movement called Loldiers of Odin, whose members dressed as clowns walk behind these street patrols singing and dancing. :D
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03g49x9
And the high priest of Odin in Iceland also told these neo-nazis off and said they have no idea what Odin is about. :P
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday-edition-1.3411988/troupe-of-clowns-mock-anti-immigration-group-patrolling-finnish-streets-1.3411990
More fun and games in Calais with leftists of the No Borders variety being what they're best at, useful idiots, stirring up more trouble as if it were needed. Their view of de Gaulle, among other things, is counter-factual at best. Not to mention their spelling "Nik la France" i.e "Fuk France" (sic). The Mail says they are British-led but they come also from France (not Calais), Germany and the Netherlands.
A video of the tense situation with "migrants" and leftists invading some local property is getting lots of play (first seen on RTL.FR mainstream radio)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc1G_pa1-c8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc1G_pa1-c8)
Corbyn visited Calais earlier in the day. :hmm:
Not mentioned in the article is a really peaceful counter-demonstration organised by Calais locals, shopkeepers mostly, complaining about lost business.
QuoteBritish anarchists led violence in Calais and defaced statue of de Gaulle in invasion of ferry port by 500 migrants
Port of Calais in France closed after migrants storm the harbour and make it on to The Spirit of Britain ferry
Around 500 migrants broke through police lines with 50 thought to have boarded P&O vessel
British anarchists from 'No Borders' were among the 35 people arrested after leading the 'scandalous' invasion
Others defaced a statue of France's wartime leader and former president Charles de Gaulle
Road Haulage Association called for the French military to be deployed
By PETER ALLEN IN PARIS and JOSEPH CURTIS FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 17:58 GMT, 23 January 2016 | UPDATED: 20:14 GMT, 24 January 2016
British anarchists were among some 35 people under arrest in Calais on Sunday after leading a 'scandalous' invasion of the ferry port by some 500 migrants.
Not only did the thugs tear down security fences and threaten violence, but they also defaced a statue of France's wartime leader and former president Charles de Gaulle.
Masked agitators from the left-wing group No Borders were filmed during the trouble on Saturday afternoon as they tried to get people to the UK.
The Port of Calais has been closed after more than 100 migrants stormed the harbour, pictured, in a bid to get to Britain
It followed a 2,000-strong protest against the living conditions in migrant camps at the French city that turned into an escape attempt
Xavier Bertrand, the president of the French region which covers Calais, said: 'The attitude of No Borders in Calais is scandalous – there must be a punishment,' said
'I demand that the government urgently holds a crisis meeting,' Mr Bertrand added on Twitter.
It later emerged that eight of those arrested in Calais for the storming of the ferry were to face immediate trial.
Six migrants and two activists from No Borders face a maximum penalty of six months in prison and a fine equivalent to £2,800 if convicted.
The eight were among the larger group who stormed on board the P&O ferry, the Spirit of Britain, on Saturday.
Nine of those arrested were members of No Borders, the interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, said in a statement.
Gilles Debove, of the Calais police union, said: 'I cannot understand why British citizens come to Calais to incite migrants to break the law and defy the French authorities'.
Images posted on social media show masked thugs with political flags leading a rally attended by around 2,000 people in support of free immigration to Britain.
Many of those attending were residents of the so-called 'Jungle', the vast refugee camp containing around 5000 people all desperate to start a new life in the UK.
At one point some of the demonstrators break off to paint slogans and stickers on a famous statue of De Gaulle and his wife, Yvonne.
The couple were married in Calais in 1921, two decades before General de Gaulle led the struggle against Nazism from Britain.
As president, De Gaulle also stood up to his own army officers and risked a coup d'etat to hand back the colony of Algeria to its own people.
Yet 'Calais Solidarity', another anarchist group involved in Saturday's trouble, posted a picture of the vandalized statue, saying De Gaulle was a 'reactionary mass murderer, coloniser and chief torturer of Algerians.'
Hundreds then broke through the perimeter of the Calais ferry port, storming up the gangplanks of the P&O ferry Spirit of Britain.
Police today confirmed they had arrested 24 migrants, and a further 11 people believed to be from No Borders, some of them British.
'Identification is difficult because few carry passports or other identification cards,' said a Calais police source. 'All want to keep their identities a secret.'
All face a range of charges, ranging from public disorder to trespass, said the source.
Water canons, pictured, have been used on board the ship in an effort to get the migrants to disembark
Richard Burnett (centre), CEO of the Road Haulage Association, called for the French military to be deployed at Calais port
The Port of Calais was forced to close on Saturday evening after a storm of migrants broke into the harbour.
Around 500 migrants stormed the site and around 50 made it on to the Spirit of Britain ferry, where they remained for several hours until they were removed by police, with the port now reopened.
The incident triggered fresh calls for the French military to be deployed at the port by the Road Haulage Association.
Its chief executive Richard Burnett said the incident was just the latest in a string of instances.
'This shocking breach of security clearly shows that the migrant mayhem in and around Calais is not being tackled,' he said.
'This latest episode has made the headlines, but the many incidents of attacks and intimidation faced by our British drivers on a daily basis are going unreported as, depressingly, they are now being regarded as routine.
'It is now time for the authorities to acknowledge and meet our demand for the French military be deployed to secure the port and its approaches.
'I am now publicly calling on government to join my call for this decisive action.'
Mr Burnett said immediate action was necessary, warning that it is 'only a matter of time before our worst fears become a reality and a UK-bound truck driver is killed'.
The incident came after a protest organised by French leftists to support migrants living in squalid conditions in the northern city of Calais drew around 2,000 people, according to organisers.
It followed a visit by British Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn in the region, which is temporary home to about 4,000 migrants camped out in hopes of finding a better life in Britain, across the Channel.
French officials said a group of 500 people forced their way through police lines and headed to the port, and 150 people were able to get into the fenced-off area.
The Mayor of Calais Natacha Bouchart closed the port and said around 50 migrants made their way on to the P&O-operated vessel.
Police were at the scene and water canons were used on board the ship to try to get the group to leave. Officers removed all of the migrants shortly before 9pm and the port was reopened.
P&O said the ship had just crossed from Dover, on the English side of the Channel, and 'a few trucks' were still onboard but there were no passengers when the boarding occurred.
Footage has been uploaded to the internet of around 150 migrants breaking through the fence at the port, pictured
The person videoing the break-in then moves around a building to film more people running towards the fence with cheering heard
'The proximity of the camp and the unprecedented number of migrants make it impossible to secure the (port) infrastructure, however much the state invests,' port director Jean-Marc Puissesseau said.
Long lines of cars and lorries are now building up outside the port and the incident has led to fears of travel chaos ahead of planned closures to the Eurotunnel from 9pm tonight.
The tunnel is shutting so an overnight safety exercise can take place and all services will be suspended, with the last UK departure at 9.20pm and the first departure leaving the UK at be 6.20am tomorrow and from France at 7.20am.
At the time of the disruption, P&O Ferries Updates tweeted: 'The Port of Calais is resolving a security incident. As a result our vessels are subject to delay of between 90 and 120 minutes.'
The travel giant then tweeted at around 8pm that the situation was still ongoing but vessels were being allowed to dock at the port again and loading would commence shortly.
In a video filmed by a bystander, crowds can be heard cheering as migrants try to force their way through the fence.
According to Reuters, port staff said some of the migrants have left the Spirit of Britain voluntarily and the rest will be removed by police if necessary.
Migrants are filmed breaking into the port, pictured, by a bystander and then making their way towards the ferry
Crowds can be heard cheering as the migrants bash their way against the fence, pictured, before forcing it open
Hundreds of migrants run towards Calais port during protest
Danish firm DFDS Seaways called the incident a 'migrant invasion', adding the port would be reopened once police had cleared them out.
Witness Ben Ferguson said: 'Demonstrators broke police lines & headed to the port. In spite of clouds of teargas a group prised open fence b4 (sic) crowd followed.'
A statement from the Port of Dover said the French port was experiencing 'migrant activity' which had caused disruption to services.
It read: 'The Port of Calais is currently experiencing migrant activity which has caused disruption to ferry services. Therefore services to and from Calais via the Port of Dover are affected, but DFDS Seaways services are still running to Dunkirk as normal.
'The Port of Dover remains open for business, but the duration of this disruption to services remains unknown.'
P&O has confirmed it is running at a delay of between 90 minutes and two hours after migrants boarded the Spirit of Britain
Migrants, pictured running towards the port, are reported to have had tear gas fired at them by French police officers
A group is believed to have ripped open a fence in order to get access to the harbour in Calais, pictured
The incident comes hours after UK Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn visited the region and said more had to be done to help migrants deal with 'disgraceful conditions'
Some people from Britain were present at the demonstration while others carried banners saying 'refugees welcome here'.
But France is under pressure from Britain to secure the region and the French premier said this week that Europe cannot welcome everyone.
Mr Corbyn's visit comes amid a growing urgency over the migrant crisis, with French prime minister Manuel Valls warning the huge influx is putting the European Union's future in 'grave danger'.
During his visit, Mr Corbyn was given a tour of the site meeting refugees and aid workers before speaking of the 'dreadful situation' faced by people camped in the swamp-like conditions.
He said: 'What I'm trying to achieve here is to understand the nature of the refugee crisis that's facing the whole of Europe.
It is understood the group that invaded the port is larger than 100 people, disrupting services at the harbour
It is unknown exactly how many migrants were able to make their way onto the Spirit of Britain, pictured, but more than 50 are believed to be aboard, according to the Mayor of Calais
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn (centre) inspects clothes on a visit to the Auberge Des Migrants Help Refugees warehouse near Calais
'Also, there are the human needs of people. We have got people here who have been here for months, if not longer than that, with no proper education, no access to doctors, no access to dentists, limited access to food - in very cold, very wet conditions.
'These conditions are a disgrace anywhere. We as human beings have to reach out to fellow human beings.'
Mr Corbyn said Britain should be part of a pan-European effort to help the people affected by the crisis.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 25, 2016, 04:12:05 AM
Their view of de Gaulle, among other things, is counter-factual at best.
It is not the first time I have heard english speakers talk as if de Gaulle was responsible for the war in Algeria rather than the ender of it. Very weird since his work to end the French Empire, for the most part, was the main thing he did outside of the WWII stuff.
He's a monster for bringing baseball to California.
Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/25/the-long-history-of-muslims-and-christians-killing-people-together/?ref=yfp (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/25/the-long-history-of-muslims-and-christians-killing-people-together/?ref=yfp)
The long history of Muslims and Christians killing people together
By Ishaan Tharoor January 25 at 11:00 AM
In 1683, a vast Ottoman army camped outside the gates of Vienna. For centuries thereafter, the siege and final decisive battle that took place would be cast as a defining moment in a clash of civilizations -- that time the forces of Islam were halted at the ramparts of Christendom.
Yet look just a little bit harder, and that tidy narrative falls apart. The Ottoman assault had been coordinated in league with French King Louis XIV. And perhaps more than half of the soldiers seeking to capture the Austrian capital were Christians themselves. There were Greeks, Armenians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Serbs, all fighting alongside Arabs, Turks, Kurds and others in the Ottoman ranks.
One of the main figures leading the Turkish charge was Imre Thokoly, who was a Protestant born in what's now Slovakia and an avowed Hungarian nationalist. Tens of thousands of Hungarian peasants who were angry at the rapacious behavior of the Catholic Church, and the imperial Habsburg dynasty in Vienna had rallied to Thokoly's banner.
It reflected, writes British academic Ian Almond in his 2009 book "Two Faiths, One Banner: When Muslims Marched With Christians Across Europe's Battlegrounds," how "little use terms such as 'Muslim' and 'Christian' are to describe the almost hopelessly complex web of shifting power-relations, feudal alliances, ethnic sympathies and historical grudges" that shaped much of European history.
That sense of nuance fades over centuries, and certainly wasn't apparent last year when another Hungarian nationalist -- the country's current Prime Minister Viktor Orbán -- cited the legacy of the Ottoman conquest to justify keeping Syrian refugees from passing through Hungary's borders.
"I have to say that when it comes to living together with Muslim communities, we are the only ones who have experience because we had the possibility to go through that experience for 150 years," Orbán told reporters last year, apparently referring to the period of dynastic warfare and mayhem that was sparked by the initial Ottoman invasion in the 16th century.
Orban has hardly been alone with this sort of grand, historical rhetoric. A host of Eastern European leaders, representing various right-of-center, nationalist governments, echoed Orbán's line, painting the migrant influx as an existential threat, an "invasion" of people whose cultural identity is wholly alien to Europe. A coalition of far-right activist groups in the region last week warned of "Islam conquering Europe" and announced plans for joint protests.
Further west, from France to the United States, conservative politicians -- including Republican presidential candidates -- also have gestured at a clash of civilizations when proposing bans on refugees or even halting Muslim migration altogether.
[More European nations are barring their doors to migrants]
"Today, words such as 'Islam' and 'Europe' appear to have all the consistency of oil and water," Almond writes. But, he goes on, "the fact remains that in the history of Europe, for hundreds of years, Muslims and Christians shared common cultures, spoke common languages, and did not necessarily see one another as 'strange' or 'other.'"
The starkest proof of that lies in the battlefield, where Muslims and Christians died next to one another over many centuries.
It wasn't just the Ottomans who had multi-confessional armies. Muslims and Christians fought on all sides of the struggles in medieval Spain, where the last Muslim kingdom was snuffed out only in 1492. The Grand Catalan Company, an infamous mercenary outfit, ended up employing thousands of Turks even after it had been paid to fight them.
Frederick II, a 13th-century king who became the Holy Roman Emperor, deployed thousands of Arab Muslim archers and warriors during his wars with rival factions in Italy, including the armies of the pope. Chroniclers at the time documented the presence in the emperor's ranks of elephants bearing wooden towers bristling with Saracen, or Muslim, soldiers.
The Crimean War of the mid-19th century, a conflict a bit closer to our modern moment, saw a similar mishmash of identities and loyalties. Algerian soldiers were conscripted into the French army; Tatar Muslims were in the Russian ranks; all sorts of Christians -- including Cossacks, Romanian militias and Greek doctors -- were in the service of the Ottomans.
The point is not to romanticize this past -- which, in any event, was rather bloody and brutal. But it's worth bearing in mind these historical footnotes when thinking about the ideological divides and political rhetoric of the present.
"Strategically choosing when to talk about religious differences and when to keep quiet is the oldest trick in history," Almond writes. It's a pretty useful tactic in politics, too.
The comments section from the link is pretty good.
Quote
So Ishaan Tharoor had to go to 17th century to find an example of Christians cooperating with Muslims to kill people. Truly grasping at straws, terrorist apologist.
QuoteYet look just a little bit harder, and that tidy narrative falls apart. The Ottoman assault had been coordinated in league with French King Louis XIV. And perhaps more than half of the soldiers seeking to capture the Austrian capital were Christians themselves. There were Greeks, Armenians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Serbs, all fighting alongside Arabs, Turks, Kurds and others in the Ottoman ranks.
Wait so the Ottoman's used troops from their own territory in their armies?
Anyway did you know that the Poles also used troops from their own territory in their army in this battle? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars
I am not sure that nations using their vassals in a battle means that narrative falls apart, people in the 17th century understood it. When Sobieski wrote his letter to the Pope he did caution him that this was not a victory for Christendom because the Ottoman's had Christian vassals and allies, right? And I am sure the Grand Mufti would have been all 'this is not a victory for Islam but of Christian-Muslim cooperation! All gratitude to our French allies and our glorious vassals!'.
QuoteBut it's worth bearing in mind these historical footnotes when thinking about the ideological divides and political rhetoric of the present.
Except you do not need to go to history for this stuff.
Muslims have fought for the Western Powers in every single war since Imperialism became a thing and they still do to day. Even though this is an obvious and much discussed fact political rhetoric has no problem dealing with that, so probably what happened in 1683 is not going to shake anybody.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2016, 04:06:41 PM
QuoteYet look just a little bit harder, and that tidy narrative falls apart. The Ottoman assault had been coordinated in league with French King Louis XIV. And perhaps more than half of the soldiers seeking to capture the Austrian capital were Christians themselves. There were Greeks, Armenians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Serbs, all fighting alongside Arabs, Turks, Kurds and others in the Ottoman ranks.
Wait so the Ottoman's used troops from their own territory in their armies?
Anyway did you know that the Poles also used troops from their own territory in their army in this battle? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars
I am not sure that nations using their vassals in a battle means that narrative falls apart, people in the 17th century understood it. When Sobieski wrote his letter to the Pope he did caution him that this was not a victory for Christendom because the Ottoman's had Christian vassals and allies, right?
Anyway so big whoop. Muslims have fought for the Western Powers in every single war since Imperialism became a thing.
I think the 'article' ends on what it hopes people will take away from it.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2016, 04:06:41 PM
Muslims have fought for the Western Powers in every single war since Imperialism became a thing and they still do to day.
Every single war? With a sufficient number of Muslim fighters for that to be notable? :huh:
Quote from: garbon on January 25, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
Every single war? With a sufficient number of Muslim fighters for that to be notable? :huh:
Some more than others.
Very odd article making a very odd point.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 25, 2016, 04:14:51 PM
Very odd article making a very odd point.
I must say I'm not sure why it got posted here. :D
Quote from: garbon on January 25, 2016, 04:17:54 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 25, 2016, 04:14:51 PM
Very odd article making a very odd point.
I must say I'm not sure why it got posted here. :D
Cause we're a bunch of history nerds and most of us have played the EU series at some point. LOL Can I be Ottoman Empire?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35406072?ocid=socialflow_twitter
Thanks Merkel!
Quote from: Queequeg on January 26, 2016, 05:26:21 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35406072?ocid=socialflow_twitter
Thanks Merkel!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35406436
This is Denmark's "Fuck You" response to Merkel.
Quote from: citizen k on January 25, 2016, 03:47:20 PM
So Ishaan Tharoor had to go to 17th century to find an example of Christians cooperating with Muslims to kill people. Truly grasping at straws, terrorist apologist.
I could pick out quite a few since the 17th century. WWI, WWII, Korea, Afghanistan (both American and Soviet phases), Iraq (Gulf war, Iraq war, current war against ISIS). It's not that hard.
https://youtu.be/Ab6MXX4jBGw
VICE covers the anarchist/far-left ignited battle at Calais the other day.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2016, 04:12:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 25, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
Every single war? With a sufficient number of Muslim fighters for that to be notable? :huh:
Some more than others.
My personal favourite is the battle of Grunwald (also called the battle of Tannenberg) which is considered, by Polish right wing Catholic nationalists, a go-to historical event to symbolise what they are fighting for (mainly because it was depicted in a grand painting by a 19th century romantic painter and in an early 20th century novel, where the Polish knights are depicted singing a religious song as they begin charging the ranks of the Teutonic Knights).
The part they are missing is that in addition to Poles, the Polish army included Russian Orthodox allies, a contingent or two of Muslim Tartars from Crimea, the Lithuanian regiments of very-recently-converted-from-paganism-wink-wink warriors, and Hussite mercenaries, kicking the flower of Western Christendom to the curb. :D
Quote from: Martinus on January 26, 2016, 08:02:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2016, 04:12:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 25, 2016, 04:11:48 PM
Every single war? With a sufficient number of Muslim fighters for that to be notable? :huh:
Some more than others.
My personal favourite is the battle of Grunwald (also called the battle of Tannenberg) which is considered, by Polish right wing Catholic nationalists, a go-to historical event to symbolise what they are fighting for (mainly because it was depicted in a grand painting by a 19th century romantic painter and in an early 20th century novel, where the Polish knights are depicted singing a religious song as they begin charging the ranks of the Teutonic Knights).
The part they are missing is that in addition to Poles, the Polish army included Russian Orthodox allies, a contingent or two of Muslim Tartars from Crimea, the Lithuanian regiments of very-recently-converted-from-paganism-wink-wink warriors, and Hussite mercenaries, kicking the flower of Western Christendom to the curb. :D
Both of those things could easily be true. I mean Muslim Tatars have fought for the Poles in most of their wars, it does not mean that somehow Catholicism does not play a big role as well.
I still think it played a bigger role for the Teutonic Knights. ;)
Quote from: Martinus on January 26, 2016, 08:21:34 AM
I still think it played a bigger role for the Teutonic Knights. ;)
I don't know. It kind of strikes me like laughing at a Roman Triumph because a lot of the soldiers were Federati.
To illustrate the credibility crisis of German police after Cologne:
A 13 year old girl with disappeared in Berlin (her parents are Russo-Germans immigrants). 30 hours later she was back. Rumors rose that she had been abducted by immigrants/refugees and raped.
Police and prosecutors have said repeatedly that the girl was neither abducted nor raped, but that there had been consensual sex (age of consent in Germany is 14 IIRC, though I believe there's lenience rules if both parties are under 18 - or 16? I guess she disappeared to/with her boyfriend and they messed around). Police refuse to say more to protect the privacy of all involved.
Russian media says that the girl was abducted and treated as sex slave by immigrants. Russo-Germans demonstrated in several cities, and Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov accuses German authorities of hushing up the case and calls for a full investigation and protection of Russian immigrants in Germany.
Damn, you can almost see how a situation like this can degenerate into barbarism very quickly. It's just a matter of a scandal or two.
But then German police have noone to blame but themselves.
Quote from: Syt on January 26, 2016, 09:04:45 AM
To illustrate the credibility crisis of German police after Cologne:
A 13 year old girl with disappeared in Berlin (her parents are Russo-Germans immigrants). 30 hours later she was back. Rumors rose that she had been abducted by immigrants/refugees and raped.
Police and prosecutors have said repeatedly that the girl was neither abducted nor raped, but that there had been consensual sex (age of consent in Germany is 14 IIRC, though I believe there's lenience rules if both parties are under 18 - or 16? I guess she disappeared to/with her boyfriend and they messed around). Police refuse to say more to protect the privacy of all involved.
Russian media says that the girl was abducted and treated as sex slave by immigrants. Russo-Germans demonstrated in several cities, and Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov accuses German authorities of hushing up the case and calls for a full investigation and protection of Russian immigrants in Germany.
Oh Dear God.
Quote from: Syt on January 26, 2016, 09:04:45 AM
To illustrate the credibility crisis of German police after Cologne:
A 13 year old girl with disappeared in Berlin (her parents are Russo-Germans immigrants). 30 hours later she was back. Rumors rose that she had been abducted by immigrants/refugees and raped.
Police and prosecutors have said repeatedly that the girl was neither abducted nor raped, but that there had been consensual sex (age of consent in Germany is 14 IIRC, though I believe there's lenience rules if both parties are under 18 - or 16? I guess she disappeared to/with her boyfriend and they messed around). Police refuse to say more to protect the privacy of all involved.
Russian media says that the girl was abducted and treated as sex slave by immigrants. Russo-Germans demonstrated in several cities, and Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov accuses German authorities of hushing up the case and calls for a full investigation and protection of Russian immigrants in Germany.
The cover ups were a dreadful mistake. Conspiracy theories were confirmed, having been confirmed it is almost impossible to put them back into the box. Veracity is an attribute easily lost.
You reap what you sow. You don't rape your sow.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/26/europe/denmark-vote-jewelry-bill-migrants/index.html
Top story on CNN.com, go Denmark! Also, video interview is with the top Languish voted politician from Denmark, the beautiful Pernille Skipper.
That doesn't look like the chick with the hot instagram photos. :hmm:
Edit- Nikita Klaestrup
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.freebeacon.com%2Fup%2F2015%2F03%2FScreen-Shot-2015-03-04-at-4.04.16-PM-540x369.png&hash=08102e60e0155db8cabfc10889f19dac9ecd96fe)
I was expecting the chick with the tits. :mad:
Quote from: Liep on January 26, 2016, 03:15:58 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/26/europe/denmark-vote-jewelry-bill-migrants/index.html
Top story on CNN.com, go Denmark! Also, video interview is with the top Languish voted politician from Denmark, the beautiful Pernille Skipper.
Wow, that's fucked up. A huge nazi / Holocaust vibe, too. :huh:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 26, 2016, 03:24:35 PM
That doesn't look like the chick with the hot instagram photos. :hmm:
Liep is talking bout the nutty left winger not the nutty right winger.
Anyway Denmark is clearly losing its mind. Are those refugees sure they don't want to go to Canada?
Quote from: Valmy on January 26, 2016, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 26, 2016, 03:24:35 PM
That doesn't look like the chick with the hot instagram photos. :hmm:
Liep is talking bout the nutty left winger not the nutty right winger.
Well, I don't recall this election, because I'd have voted for the nutty right winger all the way. :lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 26, 2016, 03:27:22 PM
I was expecting the chick with the tits. :mad:
The chick with the tits had a much riskier dress on for an award show yesterday. And there was a nip slip.
Quote from: Martinus on January 26, 2016, 03:32:07 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 26, 2016, 03:15:58 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/26/europe/denmark-vote-jewelry-bill-migrants/index.html
Top story on CNN.com, go Denmark! Also, video interview is with the top Languish voted politician from Denmark, the beautiful Pernille Skipper.
Wow, that's fucked up. A huge nazi / Holocaust vibe, too. :huh:
Seriously. Shame on them.
Germany and Switzerland are doing that as well.
Quote from: Valmy on January 26, 2016, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 26, 2016, 03:24:35 PM
That doesn't look like the chick with the hot instagram photos. :hmm:
Liep is talking bout the nutty left winger not the nutty right winger.
Anyway Denmark is clearly losing its mind. Are those refugees sure they don't want to go to Canada?
Yes, we are indeed losing our minds. I think 70% of the parliament might just be against this bill, but because the extreme right continues to grow in the polls they're all scrambling to regain those votes even if it's still "just" 20-25%.
This has already shattered Danish politics and I fear it's only going to get worse. No one talks about the destruction of the Danish green energy industry or education. There's no grand strategy any more, it's all just jewellery and how can we avoid those brown people.
:cry:
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 03:56:27 PM
Germany and Switzerland are doing that as well.
Yeah but Germany and Switzerland have past track record with stealing gold of persecuted minorities. I thought Danes were the good guys though.
QuoteRefugees forfeit cash and belongings
Media reports have insinuated that Bavaria has begun taking valuables from migrants to pay for their upkeep. In fact, as ministries point out, this has always been standard procedure and is supported by German law.
German media reported on Thursday that Bavaria, joining Denmark and Switzerland, has begun confiscating valuables from newly-arrived refugees.
"Asylum applicants are searched on arrival at the reception centers for documents, valuables, and money," state Interior Minister Joachim Herrmann told Thursday's edition of the "Bild" newspaper. "Cash and valuables may be confiscated if they are worth more than 750 euros [$820] and there is a state claim for reimbursement against the person, or one is expected."
The mass-circulation daily also reported that police in the other major southern German state, Baden-Württemberg, could confiscate any cash and valuables over 350 euros, and that the average value confiscated per person in December was in the "four-figure range."
Some reservations
But there were some contextual caveats not mentioned in the tabloid's report.
The Baden-Württemberg Integration Ministry clarified to DW that though cash was taken from refugees in individual cases following police spot-checks, searches are not carried out on every refugee.
"Refugees are not being systematically searched for cash or valuables," said ministry spokesman Christoph Häring. "In the context of a general police check it was established that individual refugees had cash with them."
Nor is this practice actually new. "They've always done that," said Stephan Dünnwald of the Bavarian Refugee Council. "The refugees get a receipt for whatever they have on them, and then that money is used for any expenses the state incurs - usually they calculate around 400 euros a month. That's part of German law - nothing to do with any new restrictions."
"Last fall, a volunteer called me and said a Syrian family had had 10,000 euros with them, which had been taken from them at the border, and she wanted to know if they could get that money back somehow," he added. "And I said, 'well no,' - I mean a family of five, and each of them cost 400 euros a month. After five months they're probably still stuck in the first reception shelter and the money will be gone."
'Forced into a passive role'
The Baden-Württemberg ministry insisted that money is not simply taken away and poured into state coffers to offset the general costs of dealing with the influx of refugees. "The refugees are redistributed around the country, and the money travels with them, so to speak," said Häring. "The money goes to the local district authority, and when the refugee opens a bank account, the money is transferred to it. But then of course it is taken into account when benefit calculations are made."
Dünnwald had a different take on it: "Most of them have already been robbed by the people smugglers, then the German state comes and takes whatever is left," he said.
"This is how refugees are always forced into a passive role," he said. "They're artificially made poor, and of course then everything is done to prevent them traveling on to anywhere else - to Belgium or Sweden or wherever. It all makes it harder for them to organize their lives independently - to find their own place to live, find a job, or whatever - they're not allowed to do any of that. That's the German way of protecting refugees."
Legal basis
The procedure appeared to receive support on Thursday from the federal government, whose integration commissioner Aydan Özoguz told "Bild" that states have the right to confiscate family jewelry if necessary, since that counts as personal wealth. "Asylum applicants certainly do not have it any better than Hartz IV recipients," she said, referring to Germany's standard unemployment benefit.
Though here, too, "Bild" left out some context: Özoguz' office clarified to DW that the commissioner had not meant to express support for the policies of any particular state, but merely to confirm the "apparently widely unknown" legal situation. Under German law, all social benefits are dependent on the needs of the applicant, and therefore, anyone who makes an asylum application only receives help if their neediness has been established, a federal spokeswoman told DW by email.
In fact, Germany's Asylum Seekers Benefit Act is fairly clear: all of the asylum seeker's available income and fortune - as well as that of any relatives who live in the same household - must be used up before the applicant can claim any benefits, including the costs of accommodation. They are only allowed to keep 350 euros - roughly equal to what they would be able to claim monthly in basic benefits.
http://www.dw.com/en/refugees-forfeit-cash-and-belongings/a-18996642
Quote from: Liep on January 26, 2016, 03:58:48 PM
This has already shattered Danish politics and I fear it's only going to get worse
All of Europe is losing their minds. If this was Turkey's plan to end the EU it is working.
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 04:01:23 PM
QuoteRefugees forfeit cash and belongings
Media reports have insinuated that Bavaria has begun taking valuables from migrants to pay for their upkeep. In fact, as ministries point out, this has always been standard procedure and is supported by German law.
German media reported on Thursday that Bavaria, joining Denmark and Switzerland, has begun confiscating valuables from newly-arrived refugees.
"Asylum applicants are searched on arrival at the reception centers for documents, valuables, and money," state Interior Minister Joachim Herrmann told Thursday's edition of the "Bild" newspaper. "Cash and valuables may be confiscated if they are worth more than 750 euros [$820] and there is a state claim for reimbursement against the person, or one is expected."
The mass-circulation daily also reported that police in the other major southern German state, Baden-Württemberg, could confiscate any cash and valuables over 350 euros, and that the average value confiscated per person in December was in the "four-figure range."
Some reservations
But there were some contextual caveats not mentioned in the tabloid's report.
The Baden-Württemberg Integration Ministry clarified to DW that though cash was taken from refugees in individual cases following police spot-checks, searches are not carried out on every refugee.
"Refugees are not being systematically searched for cash or valuables," said ministry spokesman Christoph Häring. "In the context of a general police check it was established that individual refugees had cash with them."
Nor is this practice actually new. "They've always done that," said Stephan Dünnwald of the Bavarian Refugee Council. "The refugees get a receipt for whatever they have on them, and then that money is used for any expenses the state incurs - usually they calculate around 400 euros a month. That's part of German law - nothing to do with any new restrictions."
"Last fall, a volunteer called me and said a Syrian family had had 10,000 euros with them, which had been taken from them at the border, and she wanted to know if they could get that money back somehow," he added. "And I said, 'well no,' - I mean a family of five, and each of them cost 400 euros a month. After five months they're probably still stuck in the first reception shelter and the money will be gone."
'Forced into a passive role'
The Baden-Württemberg ministry insisted that money is not simply taken away and poured into state coffers to offset the general costs of dealing with the influx of refugees. "The refugees are redistributed around the country, and the money travels with them, so to speak," said Häring. "The money goes to the local district authority, and when the refugee opens a bank account, the money is transferred to it. But then of course it is taken into account when benefit calculations are made."
Dünnwald had a different take on it: "Most of them have already been robbed by the people smugglers, then the German state comes and takes whatever is left," he said.
"This is how refugees are always forced into a passive role," he said. "They're artificially made poor, and of course then everything is done to prevent them traveling on to anywhere else - to Belgium or Sweden or wherever. It all makes it harder for them to organize their lives independently - to find their own place to live, find a job, or whatever - they're not allowed to do any of that. That's the German way of protecting refugees."
Legal basis
The procedure appeared to receive support on Thursday from the federal government, whose integration commissioner Aydan Özoguz told "Bild" that states have the right to confiscate family jewelry if necessary, since that counts as personal wealth. "Asylum applicants certainly do not have it any better than Hartz IV recipients," she said, referring to Germany's standard unemployment benefit.
Though here, too, "Bild" left out some context: Özoguz' office clarified to DW that the commissioner had not meant to express support for the policies of any particular state, but merely to confirm the "apparently widely unknown" legal situation. Under German law, all social benefits are dependent on the needs of the applicant, and therefore, anyone who makes an asylum application only receives help if their neediness has been established, a federal spokeswoman told DW by email.
In fact, Germany's Asylum Seekers Benefit Act is fairly clear: all of the asylum seeker's available income and fortune - as well as that of any relatives who live in the same household - must be used up before the applicant can claim any benefits, including the costs of accommodation. They are only allowed to keep 350 euros - roughly equal to what they would be able to claim monthly in basic benefits.
http://www.dw.com/en/refugees-forfeit-cash-and-belongings/a-18996642
I haven't realised that. This is profoundly fucked up. I can't even fathom that.
Clearly, the concept of helping a local poor person and a refugee should be based on a completely different principle. A local poor person still has some grounding in the local social network, whether through family, friends, etc. The refugees have nothing. That your government takes way whatever scraps they managed to save from their lives, so it can give away its pittance and put them in refugee camps is monstrous. Wow, I thought Germany was an enlightened country. I guess the leopard doesn't change its spots, does it?
Quote from: Valmy on January 26, 2016, 04:02:34 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 26, 2016, 03:58:48 PM
This has already shattered Danish politics and I fear it's only going to get worse
All of Europe is losing their minds. If this was Turkey's plan to end the EU it is working.
It's way more terrifying than the risk of being victim to terrorism.
Quote from: Martinus on January 26, 2016, 04:05:24 PMClearly, the concept of helping a local poor person and a refugee should be based on a completely different principle.
The German social state is based on the concept of need. If you or your immediate relations can support yourself with anything, the state does not pay. I don't see why the residency status should play a role in the application of that rule.
QuoteA local poor person still has some grounding in the local social network, whether through family, friends, etc.
If a local poor person has family with means, the state will make that family support the local poor person too - if they want or not. My grandmother had to pay for her estranged father whom she hadn't seen in decades when he needed elderly care.
Quote from: Liep on January 26, 2016, 04:09:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 26, 2016, 04:02:34 PM
Quote from: Liep on January 26, 2016, 03:58:48 PM
This has already shattered Danish politics and I fear it's only going to get worse
All of Europe is losing their minds. If this was Turkey's plan to end the EU it is working.
It's way more terrifying than the risk of being victim to terrorism.
nah
Quote from: Martinus on January 26, 2016, 04:05:24 PM
That your government takes way whatever scraps they managed to save from their lives, so it can give away its pittance and put them in refugee camps is monstrous. Wow, I thought Germany was an enlightened country. I guess the leopard doesn't change its spots, does it?
FWIW, I agree with Marti on this.
Why should the German taxpayer pay for people that can pay for themselves?
The US makes refugees pay for their plane tickets over.
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 05:14:19 PM
Why should the German taxpayer pay for people that can pay for themselves?
Right? Cash in that cushy laptop and everything will be golden. Oh wait 350 euros / 750 euros probably won't get you very far. :(
Let alone say the horribleness of say seeking refugee and the authorities seizing anything you have that they deem of substantial enough value.
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:19:59 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 05:14:19 PM
Why should the German taxpayer pay for people that can pay for themselves?
Right? Cash in that cushy laptop and everything will be golden. Oh wait 350 euros / 750 euros probably won't get you very far. :(
Let alone say the horribleness of say seeking refugee and the authorities seizing anything you have that they deem of substantial enough value.
For danish citizens at least the seizure law only comes to effect if there's savings on the bank account of more than $1500 or individual items worth substantially more than $1500 like a car or house.
Btw, our PM said that his government's success should be measured in their ability to decrease the intake of asylum seekers and how many tax cuts they could make (this was before the crisis [oil and refugee] so they're not really very successful in either). That is why they're so desperate to scare away any potential applicants.
Quote from: Liep on January 26, 2016, 05:21:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:19:59 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 05:14:19 PM
Why should the German taxpayer pay for people that can pay for themselves?
Right? Cash in that cushy laptop and everything will be golden. Oh wait 350 euros / 750 euros probably won't get you very far. :(
Let alone say the horribleness of say seeking refugee and the authorities seizing anything you have that they deem of substantial enough value.
For danish citizens at least the seizure law only comes to effect if there's savings on the bank account of more than $1500 or individual items worth substantially more than $1500 like a car or house.
I could sort of understand if a refugee family showed up and said hey we are going to sell our belongings to make our on way or even, on some level, if a gov't said okay no social benefits for you if you have money/goods that you could put towards benefits....but here we are talking you have no choice, go to the camp and anything of 'significant' enough value well we are going to search you and take that from you.
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:30:09 PM
I could sort of understand if a refugee family showed up and said hey we are going to sell our belongings to make our on way or even, on some level, if a gov't said okay no social benefits for you if you have money/goods that you could put towards benefits....but here we are talking you have no choice, go to the camp and anything of 'significant' enough value well we are going to search you and take that from you.
Oh I agree, the camps are basically prisons. They're very isolated and they can't even afford bus tickets for the pocket money they receive.
To be fair though, plenty of temporary safe havens between the war zones and Denmark if they don't want to risk being robbed by Vikings
Quote from: Tamas on January 26, 2016, 05:34:49 PM
To be fair though, plenty of temporary safe havens between the war zones and Denmark if they don't want to risk being robbed by Vikings
Sure that's I guess one way to look at it until spreads beyond Switzerland, Germany...now Denmark and then whomever adopts the policy next.
How can a refugee in Germany travel to Sweden? If they're in Germany without seeking asylum they're hardly refugees.
:lol: :huh: :(
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.independent.co.uk%2Fs3fs-public%2Fstyles%2Fstory_large%2Fpublic%2Fthumbnails%2Fimage%2F2016%2F01%2F26%2F21%2Fdaily-cartoon20160127_0.jpg&hash=a7444fbdc01ad92744514d7f34f73204f72d0be7)
Most Jews had to flee Denmark in the 20th century. Many went to Sweden.
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:30:09 PM
but here we are talking you have no choice, go to the camp and anything of 'significant' enough value well we are going to search you and take that from you.
I guess they have the choice to go to another country that is more enlightened.
Quote from: The Brain on January 26, 2016, 05:41:10 PM
Most Jews had to flee Denmark in the 20th century. Many went to Sweden.
We've lost our touch when it comes to helping people flee, or maybe our current police is just better than the Nazis were at stopping it.
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 05:42:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:30:09 PM
but here we are talking you have no choice, go to the camp and anything of 'significant' enough value well we are going to search you and take that from you.
I guess they have the choice to go to another country that is more enlightened.
Heh, but a lot of this is Merkel's fault for that "We'll take them all" statement.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 26, 2016, 05:45:23 PM
Heh, but a lot of this is Merkel's fault for that "We'll take them all" statement.
I'm pretty sure this whole thing was planned and ready to launch long before that.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 26, 2016, 05:45:23 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 05:42:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:30:09 PM
but here we are talking you have no choice, go to the camp and anything of 'significant' enough value well we are going to search you and take that from you.
I guess they have the choice to go to another country that is more enlightened.
Heh, but a lot of this is Merkel's fault for that "We'll take them all" statement.
"...to Madagascar."
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 26, 2016, 05:45:23 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 05:42:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:30:09 PM
but here we are talking you have no choice, go to the camp and anything of 'significant' enough value well we are going to search you and take that from you.
I guess they have the choice to go to another country that is more enlightened.
Heh, but a lot of this is Merkel's fault for that "We'll take them all" statement.
I disagree with that narrative.
But even if that was the case they should have read the fineprint. The law in Germany is not new. If this is "horrible" or "monstrous" as posts have claimed then I suggest don't come.
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 26, 2016, 05:45:23 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 05:42:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 05:30:09 PM
but here we are talking you have no choice, go to the camp and anything of 'significant' enough value well we are going to search you and take that from you.
I guess they have the choice to go to another country that is more enlightened.
Heh, but a lot of this is Merkel's fault for that "We'll take them all" statement.
I disagree with that narrative.
But even if that was the case they should have read the fineprint. The law in Germany is not new. If this is "horrible" or "monstrous" as posts have claimed then I suggest don't come.
Actually, I doubt it is a big deal for most refugees as I doubt most have items of substantial value. So German gets to look monstrous (okay big surprise there) and it does little to slow the stream.
Yay for policies that do little and are shitty for PR? :lol:
Quotethe average value confiscated per person in December was in the "four-figure range."
No idea how significant it is.
As far as bad PR is concerned, why should we care what foreigners think? We think that most other countries are not doing anywhere near enough and leave us alone with handling this humanitarian disaster. So fuck you. Do it less monstrous yourselves or just shut up.
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 06:08:20 PM
Quotethe average value confiscated per person in December was in the "four-figure range."
No idea how significant it is.
Well probably more monstrous if you are actually netting a good chunk of change. ;) I doubt it though given that again how many refugees are strolling in with high value items?
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 06:08:20 PMAs far as bad PR is concerned, why should we care what foreigners think? We think that most other countries are not doing anywhere near enough and leave us alone with handling this humanitarian disaster. So fuck you. Do it less monstrous yourselves or just shut up.
That's quite a bit of hostility for not caring what a foreigner thinks. :lol:
Also, I don't think I really need to explain to you why it might matter if foreigners and their countries take a dim view of another country.
Well, I won't speak to Germany but I think the Danish handling of this is petty and disgraceful.
Flattering cartoon of our PM (from the party Venstre)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZrmIXmWcAAmRtD.jpg)
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 06:13:42 PM
That's quite a bit of hostility for not caring what a foreigner thinks. :lol:
Hmm. I feel contempt for our so called European partners. That makes me much less caring what they in turn think.
Edit: Not in general, but in this matter.
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 06:08:20 PM
Quotethe average value confiscated per person in December was in the "four-figure range."
No idea how significant it is.
As far as bad PR is concerned, why should we care what foreigners think? We think that most other countries are not doing anywhere near enough and leave us alone with handling this humanitarian disaster. So fuck you. Do it less monstrous yourselves or just shut up.
And you wonder why we spy on you.
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 26, 2016, 04:05:24 PMClearly, the concept of helping a local poor person and a refugee should be based on a completely different principle.
The German social state is based on the concept of need. If you or your immediate relations can support yourself with anything, the state does not pay. I don't see why the residency status should play a role in the application of that rule.
QuoteA local poor person still has some grounding in the local social network, whether through family, friends, etc.
If a local poor person has family with means, the state will make that family support the local poor person too - if they want or not. My grandmother had to pay for her estranged father whom she hadn't seen in decades when he needed elderly care.
You don't understand the point. Help for refugees is not based on them being poor, it's based on them being refugees.
Now, if we were talking about some fat Syrian cat showing up in Germany in a private jet, with millions of dollars on his bank account, and then expecting to scrounge off that luxurious German refugee camp lifestyle at the German tax payer's expense, sure make him pay for it.
But we are talking about people who have lost everything they had except they managed to keep a fraction of it by taking some valuables with them. They arrive in Germany with very little control over what they can do - they are not let out to integrate with the society, given a house and allowed to get a job - they are put in highly transitional and uncertain situation, in a refugee camp, where they cannot do anything to better their situation, but to wait for their refugee application to be processed. And on top of that the German state makes them pay for the privilege and makes them even more destitute by taking away the last vestiges of the sense of security from them.
As I said, it's monstrous, and as garbo said it does very little, and is a stupid PR move, all in the name of some idiotic sense of "ordnung". But then what can you expect from descendants of the nazis.
Ok, whatever. I guess it's a good thing other countries don't have to implement that monstrous nazist policy by just not taking in any refugees in the first place.
By the way, your post makes clear you agree with the general policy and it is just about the threshold.
Quote from: Zanza on January 26, 2016, 06:24:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2016, 06:13:42 PM
That's quite a bit of hostility for not caring what a foreigner thinks. :lol:
Hmm. I feel contempt for our so called European partners. That makes me much less caring what they in turn think.
Edit: Not in general, but in this matter.
most of your european partners feel contempt for Germany (or rather merkel) for the insane 'Wir schaffen das' lapsus.
Quote from: Liep on January 26, 2016, 04:39:15 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 26, 2016, 04:35:26 PM
nah
Quelle surprise...
what? You honestly believed europeans had turned into balls of light after 1991? lol. The effects and costs of this (great?) migration will be felt and payed for for decades to come. and it's not the newcomers who'll do the paying, not for a long long long time
From the events in Hungary it was quite obvious the "we let all Syrians in" declaration opened the floodgates. A steady, slowly increasing, but managable and above highly cooperative and peaceful stream of migrants turned into a huge, furious, desperate and uncooperative mass of people in short order.
And to add insult to injury the Hungarians were in the background hard pressed by Germany to uphold the EU laws and keep them from going forward. All the while Wilkommenskultur was going on loudly back home.
No matter how we spin it, the handling of this has been potentially a historical scale screw-up by Merkel.
We're currently undergoing a shitstorm because of the new immigration law. So far it's somewhere between the cartoon crisis and the whale killing shitstorm of 2015 in magnitude.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZthEG0XEAA3gtT.jpg)
Yeah I mean, what are the limits on the law? :lol: If a migrant says "I have nothing of value" how far the authorities can go of searching him/her?
Quote from: Tamas on January 27, 2016, 05:12:23 AM
Yeah I mean, what are the limits on the law? :lol: If a migrant says "I have nothing of value" how far the authorities can go of searching him/her?
They can search everything according to the new law, and it's the police who has to judge whether or not an item is of enough value to be seized.
Why is it creating such a shit storm with Denmark? Czech Rep. did pretty much the same, and housed refugees in prisons for weeks, and while there were complaints about that, it didn't reach shitstorm levels.
Or is it just that ball of light scandiweenians are held to different standards?
Quote from: Syt on January 27, 2016, 05:21:57 AM
Why is it creating such a shit storm with Denmark? Czech Rep. did pretty much the same, and housed refugees in prisons for weeks, and while there were complaints about that, it didn't reach shitstorm levels.
Or is it just that ball of light scandiweenians are held to different standards?
I think it's because Denmark has been known as a liberal and social country with happy people and because our government is actually proud of this and has publicised it. They placed advertisements in middle eastern and north african newspapers telling potential refugees about Denmark's new laws.
Oh, and foreign journalists who's come to follow the debate has been shocked at the level of discourse here. Many of the members of the biggest party behind the government has been convicted of racism and more have been reported for it, yet like Trump they just keep getting more voters.
"I found an unopened pack of Marlboro!"
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmultimedia.pol.dk%2Farchive%2F00999%2F_____Intet_navn_____999957y.jpg&hash=5c51e32ff41da31bc37c39ed323bbb52e62d42e0)
Quote from: Liep on January 27, 2016, 05:28:17 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 27, 2016, 05:21:57 AM
Why is it creating such a shit storm with Denmark? Czech Rep. did pretty much the same, and housed refugees in prisons for weeks, and while there were complaints about that, it didn't reach shitstorm levels.
Or is it just that ball of light scandiweenians are held to different standards?
I think it's because Denmark has been known as a liberal and social country with happy people and because our government is actually proud of this and has publicised it. They placed advertisements in middle eastern and north african newspapers telling potential refugees about Denmark's new laws.
Oh, and foreign journalists who's come to follow the debate has been shocked at the level of discourse here. Many of the members of the biggest party behind the government has been convicted of racism and more have been reported for it, yet like Trump they just keep getting more voters.
Well it is high-time for everyone to realise the obvious: even in Europe, the masses who have supported the socio-liberal status quo are interested in the socio, ie welfare and government handholding angle, not the liberal one. Just because they quitely put up with giving same rights to colored folks and such during the good years doesn't mean they won't grab the torches and pitchforks the moment there is a dent in their feelings of security.
In a lovely turn of events the people who were the strongest supporters of the Muhammad cartoons are now in uproar over Guardian's depiction of Lars Løkke as a nazi in their cartoon.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Liep on January 27, 2016, 05:53:37 AM
In a lovely turn of events the people who were the strongest supporters of the Muhammad cartoons are now in uproar over Guardian's depiction of Lars Løkke as a nazi in their cartoon.
:lmfao:
Stuff like that doesn't even surprise me anymore. Many people are only OK with freedom of expression as long as they agree with the message and aren't the target of it.
Quote from: Syt on January 27, 2016, 05:59:34 AM
Stuff like that doesn't even surprise me anymore. Many people are only OK with freedom of expression as long as they agree with the message and aren't the target of it.
As a member of the government party ("liberal") said about the Guardian: "Yes, of course they can print it, but I'm also allowed to express my utter and complete disdain over this horrendous newspaper."
Quote from: Liep on January 27, 2016, 06:44:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 27, 2016, 05:59:34 AM
Stuff like that doesn't even surprise me anymore. Many people are only OK with freedom of expression as long as they agree with the message and aren't the target of it.
As a member of the government party ("liberal") said about the Guardian: "Yes, of course they can print it, but I'm also allowed to express my utter and complete disdain over this horrendous newspaper."
That's a far cry from machine gunning them though, à la islamist vs Charlie Hebdo.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 27, 2016, 07:04:52 AM
That's a far cry from machine gunning them though, à la islamist vs Charlie Hebdo.
If only islamists would be outraged like this the world would be a better place. But it's that he's outraged at all that's fun.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 27, 2016, 03:13:50 AM
Quote from: Liep on January 26, 2016, 04:39:15 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 26, 2016, 04:35:26 PM
nah
Quelle surprise...
what? You honestly believed europeans had turned into balls of light after 1991? lol. The effects and costs of this (great?) migration will be felt and payed for for decades to come. and it's not the newcomers who'll do the paying, not for a long long long time
He was clearly being sarcastic. It was more along the lines of "gee, what a surprise Crazy_Ivan is posting racist bullshit once again" and not "I am honestly surprised you would post something that racist after always posting very sane opinions".
how dare you assassinate crazy_ivan's character ;)
Quote from: Liep on January 27, 2016, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 27, 2016, 07:04:52 AM
That's a far cry from machine gunning them though, à la islamist vs Charlie Hebdo.
If only islamists would be outraged like this the world would be a better place. But it's that he's outraged at all that's fun.
Indeed, because islamists are the real problem. :)
Quote from: Liep on January 27, 2016, 06:44:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 27, 2016, 05:59:34 AM
Stuff like that doesn't even surprise me anymore. Many people are only OK with freedom of expression as long as they agree with the message and aren't the target of it.
As a member of the government party ("liberal") said about the Guardian: "Yes, of course they can print it, but I'm also allowed to express my utter and complete disdain over this horrendous newspaper."
Isn't that how free speech is supposed to work? :hmm:
Edit: Ah ok that is what you were saying :blush:
It appears that it is all Greece's fault for not maintaining its borders properly :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35416741
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 27, 2016, 08:32:57 AM
It appears that it is all Greece's fault for not maintaining its borders properly :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35416741
I cannot imagine why the Greek government might have had problems doing that.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 27, 2016, 03:07:30 AM
most of your european partners feel contempt for Germany (or rather merkel) for the insane 'Wir schaffen das' lapsus.
Yeah, it was naive from her to expect anything from our "partners".
Quote from: Zanza on January 27, 2016, 08:40:16 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 27, 2016, 03:07:30 AM
most of your european partners feel contempt for Germany (or rather merkel) for the insane 'Wir schaffen das' lapsus.
Yeah, it was naive from her to expect anything from our "partners".
it was stupid of her to play solo-slim, brazenly announcing that Germany'll 'fix' it without any need for 'partners'
Quote from: LaCroix on January 27, 2016, 07:40:45 AM
how dare you assassinate crazy_ivan's character ;)
sticks and stones...
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 27, 2016, 07:04:52 AM
Quote from: Liep on January 27, 2016, 06:44:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 27, 2016, 05:59:34 AM
Stuff like that doesn't even surprise me anymore. Many people are only OK with freedom of expression as long as they agree with the message and aren't the target of it.
As a member of the government party ("liberal") said about the Guardian: "Yes, of course they can print it, but I'm also allowed to express my utter and complete disdain over this horrendous newspaper."
That's a far cry from machine gunning them though, à la islamist vs Charlie Hebdo.
No, that's reserved for "cultural Marxists" of the youth wing of leftist political parties.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 27, 2016, 09:11:01 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 27, 2016, 08:40:16 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 27, 2016, 03:07:30 AM
most of your european partners feel contempt for Germany (or rather merkel) for the insane 'Wir schaffen das' lapsus.
Yeah, it was naive from her to expect anything from our "partners".
it was stupid of her to play solo-slim, brazenly announcing that Germany'll 'fix' it without any need for 'partners'
She didnt.
% of BNP spent on asylum seekers.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZu83YoWYAEKesq.jpg:large)
Cheap Danes are worse than Hitler.
I think they threw a few D&D countries in that list, just for funsies.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 27, 2016, 05:29:19 PM
I think they threw a few D&D countries in that list, just for funsies.
Ungarn :D
Tjekkiet and Thai.
Ungarn = Hungary
Tjekkiet = Czech Republic
Quote from: Zanza on January 27, 2016, 03:58:48 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 27, 2016, 09:11:01 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 27, 2016, 08:40:16 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 27, 2016, 03:07:30 AM
most of your european partners feel contempt for Germany (or rather merkel) for the insane 'Wir schaffen das' lapsus.
Yeah, it was naive from her to expect anything from our "partners".
it was stupid of her to play solo-slim, brazenly announcing that Germany'll 'fix' it without any need for 'partners'
She didnt.
she sure did.
Then it won't be difficult to bring up the quote.
Apparently Sweden plans to deport up to 80,000 rejected refugees.
Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2016, 08:16:12 AM
Quote from: Liep on January 27, 2016, 06:44:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 27, 2016, 05:59:34 AM
Stuff like that doesn't even surprise me anymore. Many people are only OK with freedom of expression as long as they agree with the message and aren't the target of it.
As a member of the government party ("liberal") said about the Guardian: "Yes, of course they can print it, but I'm also allowed to express my utter and complete disdain over this horrendous newspaper."
Isn't that how free speech is supposed to work? :hmm:
Edit: Ah ok that is what you were saying :blush:
Now they "strongly recommend" the Guardian to apologize for the cartoon (something they themselves refused to even consider during the cartoon crisis). This is turning out to be more entertaining than I had expected, Danish companies are in panic over the extremely poor PR this brings, though.
At least Danish cartoonist are having a good time. :lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZzeswhWkAEBXuJ.jpg:large)
CNN and NPR has been interviewing party members from the Danish People's Party and their reaction to the casual racism are hilarious and so very sad. It's what we've been living with for 20 years. :(
http://www.npr.org/2016/01/28/464664708/denmark-s-far-right-party-argues-migrants-should-help-pay-for-their-stay
I like that bit that Norway has been busing out asylum seekers across its arctic border with Russia...:lol: :angry:
Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2016, 08:22:47 AM
I like that bit that Norway has been busing out asylum seekers across its arctic border with Russia...:lol: :angry:
Is it still the cycling refugees they're on about?
Quote from: Syt on January 28, 2016, 03:11:29 AM
Apparently Sweden plans to deport up to 80,000 rejected refugees.
:huh:
How does that work?
Quote from: Tyr on January 28, 2016, 09:25:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 28, 2016, 03:11:29 AM
Apparently Sweden plans to deport up to 80,000 rejected refugees.
:huh:
How does that work?
It's very normal, if you don't qualify for asylum you get a paid flight ticket home. 80000 sounds high but the rejection rate has been steady at about 50% for years iirc, so they expect it to also be 50% for the circa 160000 seekers they received last year.
The tricky part comes when the rejected asylum seeker refuses to go home.
Quote from: Liep on January 28, 2016, 09:46:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on January 28, 2016, 09:25:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 28, 2016, 03:11:29 AM
Apparently Sweden plans to deport up to 80,000 rejected refugees.
:huh:
How does that work?
It's very normal, if you don't qualify for asylum you get a paid flight ticket home. 80000 sounds high but the rejection rate has been steady at about 50% for years iirc, so they expect it to also be 50% for the circa 160000 seekers they received last year.
The tricky part comes when the rejected asylum seeker refuses to go home.
Or the country of origin does not want him back.
Woops. Misread as Sweden decided against doing it.
After the new immigration law the far-right Danish People's Party are now the biggest party in Denmark according to a recent poll because the social democrats, who also voted for the bill, dropped 7%. The left (fronted by the SD) getting the majority however because of a huge increase to the social liberal parties. Experts conclude that the Danes are actually mostly against the new law.
I wonder if this will cause Europe to become more interventionist in the future. Even the densest Euro should be able to see that looking the other way while civil war and instability occur in near by regions can have dramatic negative consequences.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 28, 2016, 06:06:44 PM
I wonder if this will cause Europe to become more interventionist in the future. Even the densest Euro should be able to see that looking the other way while civil war and instability occur in near by regions can have dramatic negative consequences.
I doubt it. Euros can be very dense.
Besides, judging by historical interventionism done by, say, Belgium, I think I'd rather have them munch on chocolate and be a racist backwater than go into Africa again.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 28, 2016, 06:06:44 PM
I wonder if this will cause Europe to become more interventionist in the future. Even the densest Euro should be able to see that looking the other way while civil war and instability occur in near by regions can have dramatic negative consequences.
Trouble is though that Libya where we did intervene, though better than Syria, still hasn't ended up particularly great
Quote from: Razgovory on January 28, 2016, 06:06:44 PM
I wonder if this will cause Europe to become more interventionist in the future. Even the densest Euro should be able to see that looking the other way while civil war and instability occur in near by regions can have dramatic negative consequences.
Europeans care about what happens to them locally, and give less crap the further away something is, with the biggest drop off coming at the national borders. Beyond that, everything quickly becomes "someone else's problem." Which in a time when crises become increasingly international (economy, refugees, terrorism, extremism, environmental/climate ...) is a bit unfortunate.
The US has the luxury of not being particularly affected by what happens in the Mid East. It seems rather clear that Europe can't make the same boast. Now, whether you are for settling the refugees or not I think everyone would agree that it would be better if they were safe in their own country. The only real way to do that is bring an end to regional conflicts (by force or otherwise), and possibly engaging in peace keeping operations.
When the Syrian civil war started the US chose to stay out (despite Obama's bluff). This seemed like the wise decision for the US. Europe did pretty much the same thing. I wonder if it was the right choice for Europe.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 04:03:27 AM
The US has the luxury of not being particularly affected by what happens in the Mid East. It seems rather clear that Europe can't make the same boast.
I tend to agree, but many people consider 50 meters beyond their national borders a different, foreign culture that is very different to their own. The Middle East might well be on a different planet for them.
I think many Europeans would have been happy with the ME staying reasonably quiet under local strongmen. But mission accomplished.
Quote from: Syt on January 29, 2016, 04:07:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 04:03:27 AM
The US has the luxury of not being particularly affected by what happens in the Mid East. It seems rather clear that Europe can't make the same boast.
I tend to agree, but many people consider 50 meters beyond their national borders a different, foreign culture that is very different to their own. The Middle East might well be on a different planet for them.
Yeah, honestly. I've been talking to a good friend here. We've both spent time in the Islamic world, and basically reached the conclusion that a large part of the problem here is that PC Euros just....don't understand the Islamic world at all. They have no idea how things work. Anyone who has been there beyond the Pyramid or a tourist beach in Turkey was not surprised by Cologne.
It's because the Gutmensch brainwashing is very strong.
A live hand grenade was thrown at a refugee home in Germany. Fortunately it turned out to be a dud that was then brought to controlled detonation by the police.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35437873
QuoteMigrant crisis: Germany attacks on asylum hostels soar
Five times more attacks were carried out on migrant hostels in Germany last year than in 2014, German police say.
The total for 2015 was 1,005, compared with 199 in 2014, the police report said. Far-right activists are suspected in 90% of the cases.
Last year a record 1.1 million people sought asylum in Germany - many from war-torn Syria. Many local authorities have struggled to house them.
Germany is expanding its list of safe countries, hoping to curb the influx.
The governing coalition plans to declare Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia safe countries of origin, making it easier to send migrants back, said Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel.
Last year Germany did the same for several Balkan nations - including Albania, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Kosovo - to cut the large numbers of migrants claiming asylum. Very few of their applications are granted.
The police say the biggest rise in attacks on migrant hostels last year was registered in the mainly industrial state of North Rhine-Westphalia.
State Interior Minister Ralf Jaeger said "investigators have noticed a marked increase in aggressive language" towards migrants on the internet.
Overnight a hand grenade was thrown at a migrant hostel in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg. A security man found the unexploded grenade, in Villingen-Schwenningen.
Most of the thousands of migrants arriving daily on Greek islands hope to get asylum in Germany.
On Thursday 26 migrants drowned off a Greek island after their boat capsized.
The migrants died near the island of Samos, near Turkey. Ten of the victims were children.
In other developments:
- Six bodies were discovered by the Italian navy in a sinking dinghy off the Libyan coast
- The Netherlands proposed sending migrants reaching Greece back to Turkey by ferry
- Sweden said as many as 80,000 people who arrived to the country last year could fail in their requests for asylum and face deportation
Where Europe is failing on migrants
- The 28 member states have not agreed on an EU-wide mechanism for relocating migrants, to ease the burden on Greece and Italy; only small groups have been relocated so far - and several states in Central and Eastern Europe refuse to accept migrants
- The Schengen agreement on freedom of movement is in jeopardy - Hungary fenced off its borders with Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia; meanwhile Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and France have also reimposed border controls
- The Dublin regulation, under which refugees are required to claim asylum in the member state in which they first arrive, is not working effectively; countries are no longer sending back migrants to their first point of entry to the EU
- Thousands of migrants - many of them Syrian war refugees - still arrive daily from Turkey
- Processing of asylum applications is slow and there is a big backlog - so reception centres are overcrowded
- Germany - the main destination for migrants - is rethinking its open-door policy, partly because of outrage over assaults on women in Cologne at New Year
Quote from: Syt on January 29, 2016, 07:22:59 AM
A live hand grenade was thrown at a refugee home in Germany. Fortunately it turned out to be a dud that was then brought to controlled detonation by the police.
Lovely.
Sweden has had a gazillion cases of arson at refugee homes. The police are like "Duuuh... are we like supposed to do stuff and shit?". Nothing happens.
I hate immigrants who rape women. I hate police who lie about immigrant perps. I hate security guards who confiscate immigrants' belongings. And I hate racists and nazis who attack immigrants.
I hate people.
Quote from: The Brain on January 29, 2016, 08:46:28 AM
Sweden has had a gazillion cases of arson at refugee homes. The police are like "Duuuh... are we like supposed to do stuff and shit?". Nothing happens.
Your police seems like a total failure.
Quote from: Martinus on January 29, 2016, 09:09:08 AM
Quote from: The Brain on January 29, 2016, 08:46:28 AM
Sweden has had a gazillion cases of arson at refugee homes. The police are like "Duuuh... are we like supposed to do stuff and shit?". Nothing happens.
Your police seems like a total failure.
We have very few police officers compared to normal countries, and they are very poorly led. Maybe not total but yeah.
Quote from: The Brain on January 29, 2016, 09:36:34 AM
We have very few police officers compared to normal countries, and they are very poorly led. Maybe not total but yeah.
They need a strong leader.
Quote from: The Brain on January 29, 2016, 04:49:43 AM
I think many Europeans would have been happy with the ME staying reasonably quiet under local strongmen. But mission accomplished.
Then they should have done something. If Europe wants to be just a big version of Switzerland, this is the price they have to pay.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 01:37:32 PM
Then they should have done something. If Europe wants to be just a big version of Switzerland, this is the price they have to pay.
Not really. They could just not let people in.
Quote from: Liep on January 27, 2016, 05:06:20 PM
% of BNP spent on asylum seekers.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZu83YoWYAEKesq.jpg:large)
So this was used by the government to underline that we're not so bad after all. Turns out the Danish numbers included money spend on integration efforts whereas that expense is not included for the other countries.
Oops.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 28, 2016, 06:06:44 PM
I wonder if this will cause Europe to become more interventionist in the future. Even the densest Euro should be able to see that looking the other way while civil war and instability occur in near by regions can have dramatic negative consequences.
Heh. If anything I'd say Europeans will be reinforced in the belief that promoting instability by toppling regimes willy-nilly is a bad idea.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 29, 2016, 01:57:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 01:37:32 PM
Then they should have done something. If Europe wants to be just a big version of Switzerland, this is the price they have to pay.
Not really. They could just not let people in.
That hasn't worked.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 03:51:48 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 29, 2016, 01:57:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 01:37:32 PM
Then they should have done something. If Europe wants to be just a big version of Switzerland, this is the price they have to pay.
Not really. They could just not let people in.
That hasn't worked.
It hasn't been tried.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 29, 2016, 04:02:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 03:51:48 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 29, 2016, 01:57:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 29, 2016, 01:37:32 PM
Then they should have done something. If Europe wants to be just a big version of Switzerland, this is the price they have to pay.
Not really. They could just not let people in.
That hasn't worked.
It hasn't been tried.
You sure about that?
If there weren't hope of asylum in Germany/Scandinavia/etc, the migrants would still be in the camps in Turkey. A little barb wire on the Hungarian border isn't the same as the EU shutting people out.
Note, I'm not saying they *should* follow this course.
A 100 masked men chased and beat immigrants in Stockholm last night.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3423968/Mobs-hundreds-masked-men-rampage-Stockholm-central-station-beating-refugee-children.html
Headline in Austrian tabloid Krone: "Are we his ATM? Refugees: Erdogan demands €5 billion from EU!"
Frauke Petry, head of the AfD which polls third behind CDU and SPD, and ahead of Left and Greens, has said that German borders need to be protected, and that police should use their guns if necessary.
Quote from: Liep on January 30, 2016, 06:28:21 AM
A 100 masked men chased and beat immigrants in Stockholm last night.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3423968/Mobs-hundreds-masked-men-rampage-Stockholm-central-station-beating-refugee-children.html
At least there's no police cover-up this time, Sweden is improving! :)
Quote from: Liep on January 28, 2016, 05:31:27 PM
After the new immigration law the far-right Danish People's Party are now the biggest party in Denmark according to a recent poll because the social democrats, who also voted for the bill, dropped 7%. The left (fronted by the SD) getting the majority however because of a huge increase to the social liberal parties. Experts conclude that the Danes are actually mostly against the new law.
I'm wondering why the fuck you even need this law. In Finland it's already the law that if you have significant property, you have to use it for living before you can get welfare, immigrant or no immigrant (even though our idiotic nationalist justice minister wants to implement the "Danish law" in Finland too). Why is there a need to pass a law to actively rob people?
Oh, and the Finnish police released an official statement about actual statistics for the last year.
32000 refugees arrived in Finland last year. Of them, 25 (that is 0.08%) are suspected (not convicted) of rape, and 22 more of sexual harassment (which has been in the criminal code only since late 2014, so obviously statistics will show "large growth"). Altogether, there were over 1000 rape cases in Finland last year, thus the percentage of refugees is still tiny. There were also 17 cases of violent attacks against refugee housing centres, which are discussed far less. In light of these figures, any kind of talk about "omg refugees come here and rape left and right!!!1!one" is ridiculous. I'd be surprised if relative statistics for other European countries are very different.
Let's not bring facts into a debate, please.
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2016, 02:25:00 PM
Let's not bring facts into a debate, please.
You can't handle the facts!
Quote from: Iormlund on January 29, 2016, 02:47:10 PM
Heh. If anything I'd say Europeans will be reinforced in the belief that promoting instability by toppling regimes willy-nilly is a bad idea.
This implies that Europeans needed to be reinforced in the belief that promoting instability by toppling regimes willy-nilly is a bad idea. Why on earth would there ever have been any doubt about that? Who on earth believes that promoting instability by toppling regimes willy-nilly is
anything but a bad idea?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 29, 2016, 09:14:42 PM
If there weren't hope of asylum in Germany/Scandinavia/etc, the migrants would still be in the camps in Turkey. A little barb wire on the Hungarian border isn't the same as the EU shutting people out.
Note, I'm not saying they *should* follow this course.
People hoping to get of Germany is not the same as Europe opening the border. Countries like Greece, Austria, Bulgaria etc have set up fences. They just haven't worked well.
I hasten to remind you that there are something like 10 million illegal immigrants in our country, and they haven't really been "let in".
Quote from: Razgovory on January 30, 2016, 02:56:41 PM
People hoping to get of Germany is not the same as Europe opening the border. Countries like Greece, Austria, Bulgaria etc have set up fences. They just haven't worked well.
I hasten to remind you that there are something like 10 million illegal immigrants in our country, and they haven't really been "let in".
No, Germany has actually invited them. The EU policy as a whole is to try to process the immigrants, not to keep them out.
US policy, at least unofficially, seems to be to allow a certain number of illegals in, to prop up sectors of the economy that can't pay minimum wage. If we wanted to get tougher on illegal immigration, we'd be deporting a lot more people.
That's a weak line or argument and you know it.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 30, 2016, 09:22:20 PM
That's a weak line or argument and you know it.
Not as weak as this line of non-argument.
And no, any policy that lets people stay once they get here, no matter how many border agents are employed or how much fence is put up, is not going to be effective at stopping people from getting in. You're right about that. Stopping them at the border AND removing the ones who get past it won't completely eradicate illegal immigration, but it will greatly reduce it. As I said before, Europe hasn't been employing this strategy, at least in regards to the Syrians.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2016, 10:32:17 PMAnd no, any policy that lets people stay once they get here, no matter how many border agents are employed or how much fence is put up, is not going to be effective at stopping people from getting in. You're right about that. Stopping them at the border AND removing the ones who get past it won't completely eradicate illegal immigration, but it will greatly reduce it. As I said before, Europe hasn't been employing this strategy, at least in regards to the Syrians.
do you think this policy of wide scale deportation would be a good thing? i.e., the government makes it a top priority to deport every illegal immigrant.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 30, 2016, 11:18:46 PM
do you think this policy of wide scale deportation would be a good thing? i.e., the government makes it a top priority to deport every illegal immigrant.
No. My argument with Raz is that this policy hasn't been pursued, not that it should be.
Well, that's my position for the US anyway. Europe probably needs to start deporting a lot of people, as their governments suggest is imminent(most of the non-Syrians seeking asylum), otherwise the flood will keep coming.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2016, 11:43:26 PMNo. My argument with Raz is that this policy hasn't been pursued, not that it should be.
i know, was just wondering whether you thought such a policy should be implemented
(edit) wait, didn't read the last part of your post. why do you think there's any difference between US and europe re: implementing a policy such as this. why exactly do you think it's not a good idea to implement this policy...
Quote from: LaCroix on January 31, 2016, 12:13:43 AM
(edit) wait, didn't read the last part of your post. why do you think there's any difference between US and europe re: implementing a policy such as this. why exactly do you think it's not a good idea to implement this policy...
Because Europe more or less gave up on controlling the migration at the border last year. America can handle integrating the numbers that get through our borders; Europe can't. Also consider how few Latin Americans there are compared to Africans and Asians and how they're generally richer. Europe could potentially have millions of people walk in every year, if they aren't doing anything to dissuade them.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 31, 2016, 12:33:58 AMEurope could potentially have millions of people walk in every year
this is either a worthless statement or you're overestimating the number of migrants (likely migrants) to an extremely high degree. it's possible for every mexican to move to the US. it's possible for every asian to move to the US.
Quote from: Peter Wigginif they aren't doing anything to dissuade them.
europe has zero border protection? what about those italian ships that stop people every now and then? I once saw a documentary on how hash gets into spain from morroco - there was definitely border protection in those scenes.
also, if a million syrians appeared in europe, spread out among the european nations based on population sizes. so what? what harm is done? is it really just the temporary $? the cost isn't that high at all given the overall economic boost immigrants (incl. illegal immigrants) provide.
plz note this question isn't directed at the Xenophobe Crowd (brain, crazy ivan, duque, grallon)
Europe can absorb the population of Syria. They can't absorb the population of the rest of Eurasia. If they didn't deport anyone at all as you seem to be suggesting, what keeps the non-Syrians from coming in?
The collapse in European border integrity is a new development. Last year's wave are the early adapters. If their experience is primarily positive, their friends and family are likely to follow suit. OTOH, if they spend 6 months sitting in a camp and then get rejected for asylum and flown home... numbers will decrease. Future numbers are highly contingent on what Europe chooses to do with the current group.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 31, 2016, 01:31:09 AM
Europe can absorb the population of Syria. They can't absorb the population of the rest of Eurasia. If they didn't deport anyone at all as you seem to be suggesting, what keeps the non-Syrians from coming in?
The collapse in European border integrity is a new development. Last year's wave are the early adapters. If their experience is primarily positive, their friends and family are likely to follow suit. OTOH, if they spend 6 months sitting in a camp and then get rejected for asylum and flown home... numbers will decrease. Future numbers are highly contingent on what Europe chooses to do with the current group.
there weren't problems with all of eurasia migrating over to europe before, so why would it happen now / post-syria. it's very hard to migrate, both emotionally and physically. mass migrations only occur in extreme situations. the syrian refugee "crisis" isn't even a mass migration. for one, it's like 10% of syria's total population, and look at the extreme factors required to get to that low number. and syria is pretty freaking close to europe. south sudan's refugees are around 2%, and aren't the conditions there much worse?
do you have a link that evidences europe no longer has border control? I haven't heard this before.
Have you been reading this thread? There have been a lot of articles posted describing a situation where border agents were unable to control the flow, where immigrants have ignored their instructions, where many police have given up and in some cases a policy of trying to push the immigrants forward to the next country as fast as possible has been applied.
I'm not surprised that in some isolated instances there are police officers who are overwhelmed by the number of refugees. that's different than saying europe has given up on border control. this increased immigration isn't going to last forever, because there are a limited number of refugees. as well, overwhelmed police in provinces X and Y doesn't necessarily mean provinces A B C D E are overwhelmed
It seems very much that Greece, the transit point for all Syrians and a bunch of Africans pretending to be Syrians, has very much given up on border control. They're being waved on through to Germany.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 31, 2016, 01:31:09 AM
Europe can absorb the population of Syria. They can't absorb the population of the rest of Eurasia. If they didn't deport anyone at all as you seem to be suggesting, what keeps the non-Syrians from coming in?
The collapse in European border integrity is a new development. Last year's wave are the early adapters. If their experience is primarily positive, their friends and family are likely to follow suit. OTOH, if they spend 6 months sitting in a camp and then get rejected for asylum and flown home... numbers will decrease. Future numbers are highly contingent on what Europe chooses to do with the current group.
barely anyone will get deported because the countries to which they need to be deported (i.e. the countries of origin) will not take back their own citizens. What will happens is this: an order to leave the territory will be issues, the order will be ignored, the person receiving the order will disappear into illegality. Endless millions will keep on coming because Europeans are to weakwilled to stop them.
Quote from: LaCroix on January 31, 2016, 12:47:05 AM
also, if a million syrians appeared in europe, spread out among the european nations based on population sizes. so what? what harm is done? is it really just the temporary $? the cost isn't that high at all given the overall economic boost immigrants (incl. illegal immigrants) provide.
plz note this question isn't directed at the Xenophobe Crowd (brain, crazy ivan, duque, grallon)
I resent that. I dated an immigrant last year.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2016, 03:29:32 AM
It seems very much that Greece, the transit point for all Syrians and a bunch of Africans pretending to be Syrians, has very much given up on border control. They're being waved on through to Germany.
Though in fairness to Greece, it doesn't seem like the other countries are doing much to stop the Yugoslavians pretending to be Syrians from entering either.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 31, 2016, 04:10:30 AM
Though in fairness to Greece, it doesn't seem like the other countries are doing much to stop the Yugoslavians pretending to be Syrians from entering either.
I wasn't trying to pick on Deadbeat Pinko Retardistan. Just trying to distinguish between an open border there and what appears to be status quo ante in the Western Medditerranean.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2016, 10:32:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 30, 2016, 09:22:20 PM
That's a weak line or argument and you know it.
Not as weak as this line of non-argument.
And no, any policy that lets people stay once they get here, no matter how many border agents are employed or how much fence is put up, is not going to be effective at stopping people from getting in. You're right about that. Stopping them at the border AND removing the ones who get past it won't completely eradicate illegal immigration, but it will greatly reduce it. As I said before, Europe hasn't been employing this strategy, at least in regards to the Syrians.
Okay, give me the exact quote from the official government stance where Syrians in Syria are invited to settle in Germany.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 31, 2016, 04:10:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2016, 03:29:32 AM
It seems very much that Greece, the transit point for all Syrians and a bunch of Africans pretending to be Syrians, has very much given up on border control. They're being waved on through to Germany.
Though in fairness to Greece, it doesn't seem like the other countries are doing much to stop the Yugoslavians pretending to be Syrians from entering either.
Gypsies and Albanians.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 31, 2016, 04:10:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2016, 03:29:32 AM
It seems very much that Greece, the transit point for all Syrians and a bunch of Africans pretending to be Syrians, has very much given up on border control. They're being waved on through to Germany.
Though in fairness to Greece, it doesn't seem like the other countries are doing much to stop the Yugoslavians pretending to be Syrians from entering either.
Lots is being done to stop Balkan fony assylum seekers clogging up the system. It was one of the earliest things done with the current crisis as it was a pretty easy and harmless win.
An FPÖ member of the city council in Linz has resigned from his office.
His FPÖ colleague had posted on her Facebook page, following suggestions that refugees could help in social professions that are chronically understaffed, that it was horrible idea to have "horny young mussulmen" be the "kindergarten uncle who helps little girls do wee wee" or "bathes granny."
The now resigned councilman replied, "well, they could help in the petting zoo, there's nice sheep at least ..."
The prosecution is investigating them for hate speech.
The FPÖ will probably - as usual - call this "isolated cases."
Meanwhile, the German AfD: after party head Petry said that in her opinion illegal immigrants should be stopped at the German border, if necessary, with guns, someone asked on the interwebs: "That's rubbish. Do you want to keep out women and children at the green border with force of arms?"
Beatrix von Storch, member of European Parliament: "Yes."
She later specified that she only meant to highlight current laws that allow for the use of force to protect German borders.
Which current German law would allow you to shoot people trying to cross a border? I am pretty sure we stopped doing that in 1989.
Quote from: Zanza on January 31, 2016, 12:35:44 PM
Which current German law would allow you to shoot people trying to cross a border? I am pretty sure we stopped doing that in 1989.
They refer to §11 UZwG: http://www.buzer.de/gesetz/5750/a78919.htm
Of course the hurdle for the use of it is considered to be very high (I guess in practice it would require an armed force to invade to invoke this paragraph).
The next few paragraphs limit it a lot. It sounds like it is mainly meant to allow for shooting at vehicles or for warning shots. And it clearly states that shooting at children is never allowed, so von Storch should shut the fuck up.
Quote from: Syt on January 26, 2016, 09:04:45 AM
To illustrate the credibility crisis of German police after Cologne:
A 13 year old girl with disappeared in Berlin (her parents are Russo-Germans immigrants). 30 hours later she was back. Rumors rose that she had been abducted by immigrants/refugees and raped.
Police and prosecutors have said repeatedly that the girl was neither abducted nor raped, but that there had been consensual sex (age of consent in Germany is 14 IIRC, though I believe there's lenience rules if both parties are under 18 - or 16? I guess she disappeared to/with her boyfriend and they messed around). Police refuse to say more to protect the privacy of all involved.
Russian media says that the girl was abducted and treated as sex slave by immigrants. Russo-Germans demonstrated in several cities, and Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov accuses German authorities of hushing up the case and calls for a full investigation and protection of Russian immigrants in Germany.
The girl has admitted to making up the kidnapping and rape by inmigrants story.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/31/teenage-girl-made-up-migrant-claim-that-caused-uproar-in-germany (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/31/teenage-girl-made-up-migrant-claim-that-caused-uproar-in-germany)
QuoteTeenage girl admits making up migrant rape claim that outraged Germany
Allegation by 13-year-old sparked far-right protests and anger in the Kremlin
A 13-year-old Russian-German girl has admitted making up a story about being kidnapped and raped by migrants in a case that triggered a furore in Germany and briefly embroiled Berlin police in a spat with the Kremlin, state prosecutors said.
The parents of the teenager, named only as Lisa, reported her missing on 11 January after she failed to appear at school in the Marzahn district of the capital. She reappeared 30 hours later with injuries on her face, and told her parents she had been attacked by men of Middle Eastern or north African appearance. News of the incident spread on social media, sparking outrage among Berlin's Russian-German community.
But when she was questioned by trained specialists three days later "she immediately admitted that the story of the rape was not true", said the spokesman for the state prosecutor, Martin Steltner.
He said the teenager had been scared of going home after the school had contacted her parents over an incident at school.
Yet the allegations caused uproar in Berlin, particularly after reports of mass sexual assaults allegedly carried out by migrants in Cologne. A Russian-German community group staged a protest, supported by the Pegida-related Bärgida movement. The far-right National Democratic party also demonstrated in Marzahn.
The mood was exacerbated by a report on Russian state TV, in which the girl's relatives claimed her allegations were not being investigated.
The Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, also weighed in to criticise the Berlin authorities. "The news that she disappeared was kept secret for a very long time," he told a press conference, blaming "political correctness".
Analysis of the teenager's mobile phone records showed she had spent the night with a friend, who is not being treated as a suspect.
Her mother told Der Spiegel magazine on Sunday that Lisa was "doing very badly" and was having treatment in a psychiatric ward.
Quote from: Zanza on January 31, 2016, 01:03:31 PM
so von Storch should shut the fuck up.
Oh, agreed.
What I didn't know was that her grandfather was the gentleman in black, left of Goebbels:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-808-1236-08%2C_Berlin%2C_Reichstagssitzung%2C_Goebbels%2C_Ribbentrop.jpg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutz_Graf_Schwerin_von_Krosigk
People can't pick their forebears, but I suppose you can choose whether you want to follow their footsteps.
Quote from: Syt on January 31, 2016, 11:38:59 AM
The FPÖ will probably - as usual - call this "isolated cases."
Here it's getting increasingly difficult to dismiss these as isolated cases so they've starting to just dismissing them. A prominent member of the Danish People's Party was convicted for racism today but the party leadership had already stated that the case was nonsense and said that it would in no way affect his membership status.
The tweet that got him in trouble was: "About the Jews' situation in Europe: the Muslims continues what Hitler started, only giving them the same treatment as Hitler got will change the situation."
Quote from: Zanza on January 31, 2016, 01:03:31 PM
The next few paragraphs limit it a lot. It sounds like it is mainly meant to allow for shooting at vehicles or for warning shots. And it clearly states that shooting at children is never allowed, so von Storch should shut the fuck up.
Wow, you really have gone full one eighty in defense of your nazi compatriots and their laws.
:lol:
Quote from: Syt on January 31, 2016, 11:38:59 AM
An FPÖ member of the city council in Linz has resigned from his office.
His FPÖ colleague had posted on her Facebook page, following suggestions that refugees could help in social professions that are chronically understaffed, that it was horrible idea to have "horny young mussulmen" be the "kindergarten uncle who helps little girls do wee wee" or "bathes granny."
The now resigned councilman replied, "well, they could help in the petting zoo, there's nice sheep at least ..."
The prosecution is investigating them for hate speech.
The FPÖ will probably - as usual - call this "isolated cases."
I think it's fucked up that this is something prosecutors should investigate.
Quote from: Liep on February 01, 2016, 07:31:26 AM
The tweet that got him in trouble was: "About the Jews' situation in Europe: the Muslims continues what Hitler started, only giving them the same treatment as Hitler got will change the situation."
This is a much different statement that the one Syt quoted, though.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2016, 04:11:26 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 30, 2016, 02:56:41 PM
People hoping to get of Germany is not the same as Europe opening the border. Countries like Greece, Austria, Bulgaria etc have set up fences. They just haven't worked well.
I hasten to remind you that there are something like 10 million illegal immigrants in our country, and they haven't really been "let in".
No, Germany has actually invited them. The EU policy as a whole is to try to process the immigrants, not to keep them out.
US policy, at least unofficially, seems to be to allow a certain number of illegals in, to prop up sectors of the economy that can't pay minimum wage. If we wanted to get tougher on illegal immigration, we'd be deporting a lot more people.
Sorry, are you talking about illegal immigrants or refugees? I haven't seen any indication that Germany invited immigrants to come to Germany - I thought they did it to refugees only. Could you give source on your claim?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 31, 2016, 05:00:02 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2016, 10:32:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 30, 2016, 09:22:20 PM
That's a weak line or argument and you know it.
Not as weak as this line of non-argument.
And no, any policy that lets people stay once they get here, no matter how many border agents are employed or how much fence is put up, is not going to be effective at stopping people from getting in. You're right about that. Stopping them at the border AND removing the ones who get past it won't completely eradicate illegal immigration, but it will greatly reduce it. As I said before, Europe hasn't been employing this strategy, at least in regards to the Syrians.
Okay, give me the exact quote from the official government stance where Syrians in Syria are invited to settle in Germany.
He was talking about illegal immigrants - so Syrians fleeing the war in Syria do not even enter the picture, since they are refugees.
Potato, potahto.
Right wing German NPD fails at posters:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12661819_1059620787392236_4727056817387718315_n.jpg?oh=c978bbd4310d55ddc8b7694807c7a95c&oe=5743985B&__gda__=1464031588_042ddb336fb9a860d78fa219285f6675)
"Rigorous deportations" - "Our people first" :lol:
Should be a Ju-52.
Beeb article on being Jewish in France.
QuoteNo photographs of the Gan Ami Jewish school in the sixth district of Marseille will accompany this article.
That is because if you appear at the school with a camera, you will be courteously but firmly asked to put it away.
A crocodile of youngsters on an excursion is accompanied by two teachers. The teachers have walkie-talkies. At pick-up time, six soldiers with machine guns stand by.
These are Israeli levels of security. At the nearby office of the CRIF (the official non-religious Jewish representation), a Jewish security team mans the entrance. More soldiers patrol outside the synagogue around the corner.
No-one thinks this is overkill. It is simply what life is like now for a Jew in urban France.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35445025 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35445025)
Quote from: Legbiter on February 03, 2016, 10:23:30 AM
Beeb article on being Jewish in France.
QuoteNo photographs of the Gan Ami Jewish school in the sixth district of Marseille will accompany this article.
That is because if you appear at the school with a camera, you will be courteously but firmly asked to put it away.
A crocodile of youngsters on an excursion is accompanied by two teachers. The teachers have walkie-talkies. At pick-up time, six soldiers with machine guns stand by.
These are Israeli levels of security. At the nearby office of the CRIF (the official non-religious Jewish representation), a Jewish security team mans the entrance. More soldiers patrol outside the synagogue around the corner.
No-one thinks this is overkill. It is simply what life is like now for a Jew in urban France.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35445025 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35445025)
Is this because of those evil Nazis?
It sounds pretty bad, apparently there have been a lot of French Jews moving to the UK in recent years : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35430189
The situation re anti-semitism is hardly perfect here either.
Without detailed figures one can't be sure whether anti-semitism in France is the main factor however. The French population of London is rising rapidly at the moment, unemployment is so much lower than across the Channel.
Quote from: The Brain on February 03, 2016, 10:53:23 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on February 03, 2016, 10:23:30 AM
Beeb article on being Jewish in France.
QuoteNo photographs of the Gan Ami Jewish school in the sixth district of Marseille will accompany this article.
That is because if you appear at the school with a camera, you will be courteously but firmly asked to put it away.
A crocodile of youngsters on an excursion is accompanied by two teachers. The teachers have walkie-talkies. At pick-up time, six soldiers with machine guns stand by.
These are Israeli levels of security. At the nearby office of the CRIF (the official non-religious Jewish representation), a Jewish security team mans the entrance. More soldiers patrol outside the synagogue around the corner.
No-one thinks this is overkill. It is simply what life is like now for a Jew in urban France.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35445025 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35445025)
Is this because of those evil Nazis?
Yes, it's because of all those bigoted FN voters, no doubt. :frog:
Quote
Town Hall Meeting Erupts After German Mayor Says Schoolgirls Should "Not Provoke" Refugees
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdSsJQ-fvOU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdSsJQ-fvOU)
As Europe struggles to cope with a migrant crisis that's already the worst refugee catastrophe since World War II and which threatens to spiral even further out of control once the weather turns in the spring, officials have offered a variety of possible "solutions" to the various refugee-related "problems" that have cropped up.
Some are better than others.
One idea that didn't go over too well was a suggestion by Cologne mayor Henriette Reker, who last month said it was German women's responsibility to keep would-be assailants at arms length and to adopt an appropriate "code of conduct."
That, some said, was an abhorrent attempt to blame the victims of the New Year's Eve sexual assaults for attacks authorities should have prevented.
In yet another instance of officials blaming the victim, a 17-year-old girl in Denmark was told she would have to pay a fine for using pepper spray to deter a man who allegedly tried to rape her.
Well, European officials just can't seem to get out of their own way when it comes to addressing the bloc-wide epidemic of sexual assaults and harassment that has the public at wit's end. On Wednesday, Bad Schlema mayor Jens Müller caused an uproar at a town hall meeting when, in response to one concerned grandfather's question about cat-calls from a local migrant house, he said children should "not provoke" the refugees.
"You're not allowed to walk in your own city anymore! Go home, boy! Who the hell elected you?" one man shouts, in response.
"What kind of mayor is this?," a woman can be heard yelling.
"Well, it's technically not necessary for the girls to walk there," Müller said, digging himself an even deeper hole."There are alternative routes for going to school."
"It doesn't fucking matter if there are other routes!" was the response from the crowd, which at that point was irate. You can watch the entire exchange below.
Bad Schlema has 5,500 people. They've housed 85 refugees thus far.
As RT reports, "prior to the event, a demonstration of around 100 people gathered outside the meeting hall with signs reading 'Merkel must go.'"
Quote from: citizen k on February 03, 2016, 04:05:58 PM
On Wednesday, Bad Schlema mayor Jens Müller caused an uproar at a town hall meeting when, in response to one concerned grandfather's question about cat-calls from a local migrant house, he said children should "not provoke" the refugees.
Quote
"What kind of mayor is this?," a woman can be heard yelling.
A bad one, nyuk nyuk.
QuoteGo home, boy!
At least Germans aren't racist.
1. How can somebody become a mayor when they have so little political sense as to suggest the local 10 years old girl should make sure to not sexually provoke the migrants by walking past them in winter clothing?
2. Americans and Canadians you should forget the part the refugee crisis plays in your local politics and realise from that article the kind of attitudes and future situation Europe is going to have: its 85 migrants putting a 5500 souls town into angst and uproar, in part justified.
There are millions queuing up to come to Europe when Spring sets in. If they will be let in the same semi-controlled way as last year, the cultural clash is going to get ugly, and the political development of the EU will be thrown back decades.
Quote
As RT reports
:bleeding:
Quote from: Tamas on February 04, 2016, 06:29:57 AM
1. How can somebody become a mayor when they have so little political sense as to suggest the local 10 years old girl should make sure to not sexually provoke the migrants by walking past them in winter clothing?
...
There are millions queuing up to come to Europe when Spring sets in. If they will be let in the same semi-controlled way as last year, the cultural clash is going to get ugly, and the political development of the EU will be thrown back decades.
I just have to laugh at all this, so predictable it was from the very beginning. And the usual idiots will continue bleeting that if only the local population was more welcoming these things wouldn't happen. Perhaps Europe deserve to fall - with so many imbeciles wallowing in self loathing and embracing their own destruction.
The disease is spreading though, even here we hear the same godsdamned droning about inclusion and the *necessity* to be more welcoming of other cultures, as if all cultures were equal. :bash:
The only bright side to all this is the backlash that is sure to come. And hopefully it will sweep away all these apologists in its wake.
G.
Quote from: Grallon on February 04, 2016, 11:06:38 AM
The disease is spreading though, even here we hear the same godsdamned droning about inclusion and the *necessity* to be more welcoming of other cultures, as if all cultures were equal. :bash:
Does anyone suggest Quebecois culture is equal to Anglo culture?
It is better.
:console:
Anglo-American culture is the worst, except for all the other cultures that have been tried. :bowler:
Is it The Culture?
QuoteAn Iraqi migrant has admitted to raping a ten year old boy in a Viennese swimming pool so ferociously that the boy had to be hospitalised for his injuries. The man said he knew it was wrong but couldn't help himself as he hadn't had sex in months.
Police investigators have ascertained that the 20 year old man entered Austria on the 13th September, travelling into the country via the Balkans.
On the December 2nd he brutally attacked the young boy, pulling him into a changing cubicle, pulling down his swimming trunks and assaulting him. Although the boy cried out he was not heard by anyone, Kronen Zeitung has reported.
Following the attack, the Iraqi amused himself by diving repeatedly from the three metre board. The young boy, meanwhile, went to a lifeguard in tears and told him what had happened. The police were immediately called and were able to arrest the Iraqi on the spot, while the boy was taken to hospital suffering from serious injuries.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/05/ten-year-old-boy-brutally-raped-by-iraqi-migrant-at-pool-in-vienna/ (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/05/ten-year-old-boy-brutally-raped-by-iraqi-migrant-at-pool-in-vienna/)
Yeah, read it this morning.
I hope common sense prevails for cases like these and he gets prison (with a "yes! I am a kiddy fiddler!" Sign on his shirt) then deportation
I don't get it. He had to rape a kid because he hadn't raped a kid in months?
Things are kind of going to shit, aren't they?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 06, 2016, 04:42:36 AM
Things are kind of going to shit, aren't they?
Well yes and no. The massive refugee wave might possibly lead to the end of the welfare state.
Quote from: Tyr on February 06, 2016, 04:37:53 AM
I hope common sense prevails for cases like these and he gets prison (with a "yes! I am a kiddy fiddler!" Sign on his shirt) then deportation
That's what I'm thinking. In cases where it can be reasonably expected that the prison sentence will be executed in the perp's home country I'd also support immediate deportation. Of course that's less than assured in places like Iraq or (in the case of the American au pair in the Austria Megathread) Gambia.
Quote from: Syt on February 06, 2016, 04:51:30 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 06, 2016, 04:37:53 AM
I hope common sense prevails for cases like these and he gets prison (with a "yes! I am a kiddy fiddler!" Sign on his shirt) then deportation
That's what I'm thinking. In cases where it can be reasonably expected that the prison sentence will be executed in the perp's home country I'd also support immediate deportation. Of course that's less than assured in places like Iraq or (in the case of the American au pair in the Austria Megathread) Gambia.
Unfortunately kiddie fiddler doesn't carry a stigma in the ME.
Would be best to have them do prison at home, but I doubt many countries, even stable ones, are keen to pay for that when the crime was committed elsewhere.
Cameron and the Jamaican PM not too long ago made a deal where that would be done with Jamaican crooks in the uk.
Immediate deportation. ....read an article the other day about increasing numbers of Iraqis, having realised the german streets aren't paved with gold, spending the last of their savings on a flight home.
Don't really want to teach them to rape a kid to save money. Seems like he gets off with nothing there
Quote from: Tyr on February 06, 2016, 04:53:28 AM
....read an article the other day about increasing numbers of Iraqis, having realised the german streets aren't paved with gold, spending the last of their savings on a flight home.
Seems unlikely that they just fly home since they are refugees fleeing for their lives and we must help them or burn in eternal hellfire.
Doesn't matter. You're getting the hellfire anyway unless you submit to Allah.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 06, 2016, 05:03:51 AM
Doesn't matter. You're getting the hellfire anyway unless you submit to Allah.
Ironically Hellfires have killed more Muslims than infidels.
I get my news from articles that Jos claims to have read.
Well, it's official now.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-security-idUSKCN0VE0XL (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-security-idUSKCN0VE0XL)
QuoteGerman spy agency says ISIS sending fighters disguised as refugees
BERLIN
Islamic State militants have slipped into Europe disguised as refugees, the head of Germany's domestic intelligence agency (BfV) said on Friday, a day after security forces thwarted a potential IS attack in Berlin.
Hans-Georg Maassen said the terrorist attacks in Paris last November had shown that Islamic State was deliberately planting terrorists among the refugees flowing into Europe.
"Then we have repeatedly seen that terrorists ... have slipped in camouflaged or disguised as refugees. This is a fact that the security agencies are facing," Maassen told ZDF television.
"We are trying to recognize and identify whether there are still more IS fighters or terrorists from IS that have slipped in," he added.
The Berliner Zeitung newspaper cited Maassen on Friday as saying that the BfV had received more than 100 tip-offs that there were Islamic State fighters among the refugees currently staying in Germany.
German fears about an attack have risen since the Paris killings. On Thursday, German forces arrested two men suspected of links to Islamic State militants preparing an attack in the German capital.
Authorities also canceled a friendly international soccer match in Hanover last year and closed stations in Munich at New Year due to security concerns.
Maassen, however, warned against alarm.
"We are in a serious situation and there is a high risk that there could be an attack. But the security agencies, the intelligence services and the police authorities are very alert and our goal is to minimize the risk as best we can," he said.
Looks like there'll be lots of Paris-style attacks in 2016.
Europe is so hopelessly fucked.
This is an endlessly depressing thread.
Quote from: Tyr on February 06, 2016, 04:37:53 AM
I hope common sense prevails for cases like these and he gets prison (with a "yes! I am a kiddy fiddler!" Sign on his shirt) then deportation
How about 20 years in an American prison with the charge he was convicted of on his forehead, followed by deportation by being kicked out of an airplane 10,000 feet over Iraq?
Not quite sure of the feasibility of that one ;)
Quote from: The Brain on February 06, 2016, 05:00:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 06, 2016, 04:53:28 AM
....read an article the other day about increasing numbers of Iraqis, having realised the german streets aren't paved with gold, spending the last of their savings on a flight home.
Seems unlikely that they just fly home since they are refugees fleeing for their lives and we must help them or burn in eternal hellfire.
:Le sigh:
Just because some are chancers looking to make some quick easy money doesn't mean that there aren't genuine refugees amongst them.
I'm starting to think the Arabs might have had the right idea of maintaining Palestinian refugee camps instead of integrating them into their societies. Though that should be easier than Syrians with Europe.
Quote from: Tyr on February 06, 2016, 06:59:01 AM
Not quite sure of the feasibility of that one ;)
Quote from: The Brain on February 06, 2016, 05:00:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 06, 2016, 04:53:28 AM
....read an article the other day about increasing numbers of Iraqis, having realised the german streets aren't paved with gold, spending the last of their savings on a flight home.
Seems unlikely that they just fly home since they are refugees fleeing for their lives and we must help them or burn in eternal hellfire.
:Le sigh:
Just because some are chancers looking to make some quick easy money doesn't mean that there aren't genuine refugees amongst them.
And some have put their life savings into this. Ahmed the barber may have sold off his home and store to get the hell out of Syria with his family. He might have given a sizable chunk of that money to a smuggler to put him a leaky boat. He may still have some cash when he gets to Europe. When it appears that some of the European states are only interested in shaking him down then kicking him out, he might use what he has left to leave.
Quote from: Tyr on February 06, 2016, 06:59:01 AM
Not quite sure of the feasibility of that one ;)
Quote from: The Brain on February 06, 2016, 05:00:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 06, 2016, 04:53:28 AM
....read an article the other day about increasing numbers of Iraqis, having realised the german streets aren't paved with gold, spending the last of their savings on a flight home.
Seems unlikely that they just fly home since they are refugees fleeing for their lives and we must help them or burn in eternal hellfire.
:Le sigh:
Just because some are chancers looking to make some quick easy money doesn't mean that there aren't genuine refugees amongst them.
:unsure:
Brain's just pissed the won't buy ball bearings.
Ahmed the barber sounds like a flake.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 06, 2016, 05:50:19 AM
Well, it's official now.
What would be the benefit of this? Compared to, say, coming the normal way and then disguising yourself as a refugee?
Quote from: Legbiter on February 06, 2016, 04:33:40 AM
QuoteAn Iraqi migrant has admitted to raping a ten year old boy in a Viennese swimming pool so ferociously that the boy had to be hospitalised for his injuries. The man said he knew it was wrong but couldn't help himself as he hadn't had sex in months.
Police investigators have ascertained that the 20 year old man entered Austria on the 13th September, travelling into the country via the Balkans.
On the December 2nd he brutally attacked the young boy, pulling him into a changing cubicle, pulling down his swimming trunks and assaulting him. Although the boy cried out he was not heard by anyone, Kronen Zeitung has reported.
Following the attack, the Iraqi amused himself by diving repeatedly from the three metre board. The young boy, meanwhile, went to a lifeguard in tears and told him what had happened. The police were immediately called and were able to arrest the Iraqi on the spot, while the boy was taken to hospital suffering from serious injuries.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/05/ten-year-old-boy-brutally-raped-by-iraqi-migrant-at-pool-in-vienna/ (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/05/ten-year-old-boy-brutally-raped-by-iraqi-migrant-at-pool-in-vienna/)
Austria is a cesspool for these monsters. I heard of one who held and repeatedly raped a girl for 24 years. We need to deport them all.
P.S. You are a moron. Unlike the Cologne rapes, this story has absolutely no relevance or link to the immigration problem. We talk about idiots we get on the left - but we equally get racist cretins like you on the right.
Quote from: Liep on February 06, 2016, 06:19:03 AM
This is an endlessly depressing thread.
Yeah. Morons everywhere.
Quote"Then we have repeatedly seen that terrorists ... have slipped in camouflaged or disguised as refugees.
What are the colours of refugee camo?
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2016, 05:17:35 PM
P.S. You are a moron. Unlike the Cologne rapes, this story has absolutely no relevance or link to the immigration problem.
I think a Euro rapist would have had enough sense/shame to flee the scene.
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2016, 05:17:35 PM
Unlike the Cologne rapes, this story has absolutely no relevance or link to the immigration problem.
How are the Cologne rapes relevant but this one not?
Marti, sleep it off, sugartits.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 06, 2016, 05:45:31 PMHow are the Cologne rapes relevant but this one not?
one argument is that while the cologne attacks were committed by a group of men who might have been influenced by their backwater cultural (women dressing like sluts? they deserve it!), this was committed by a clearly deranged individual who knew what he did was wrong. he's admitted that this act would be considered evil in any country in the world.
I personally disagree that the cologne attacks are relevant, though, but that's another argument.
Quote from: PJL on February 06, 2016, 07:11:51 AM
I'm starting to think the Arabs might have had the right idea of maintaining Palestinian refugee camps instead of integrating them into their societies. Though that should be easier than Syrians with Europe.
refugee camps ensure everyone in them suffers + cycle of abuse, which creates dangerous groups. integration is overall the best strategy. sure, you'll have some crimes that wouldn't have been committed had integration never occurred, but there are overall fewer crimes and fewer fucked up abuses
Europe has plenty of leftover campsites to use.
Another interesting piece from Zizek - this time asking questions rather than offering solutions:
QuoteSlavoj Žižek: The Cologne attacks were an obscene version of carnival
Were the recent Cologne sex attacks a deliberate assault on western values and a middle-class sense of decency?
ho are the "hateful eight" in Quentin Tarantino's film of the same name? The ENTIRE group of participants - white racists and the black Union soldier, men and women, law officers and criminals – they are all equally mean, brutal and revengeful. The most embarrassing moment in the film occurs when the black officer (played by the superb Samuel L. Jackson) narrates in detail and with obvious pleasure to an old Confederate general how he killed his racist son, who was responsible for many black deaths. After forcing him to march naked in cold wind, Jackson promises the freezing white guy he will get a warm cover if he performs fellatio, but after the guy does so, Jackson reneges on his promise and lets him die. So there are no good guys in the struggle against racism – they are all engaged in it with the utmost brutality. And is the lesson of the recent Cologne sex attacks not uncannily similar to the lesson of the film? Even if (most of) the refugees are effectively victims fleeing from ruined countries, this does not prevent them from acting in a despicable way. We tend to forget that there is nothing redeeming in suffering: being a victim at the bottom of the social ladder does not make you some kind of privileged voice of morality and justice.
But this general insight is not enough – one has to take a close look at the situation which gave birth to Cologne incident. In his analysis of the global situation after the Paris bombings1, Alain Badiou discerns three predominant types of subjectivity in today's global capitalism: the western "civilised" middle-class liberal-democratic subject; those outside the west possessed by the "desire for the west le desir d'Occident," desperately endeavouring to imitate the "civilised" life-style of the western middle classes; and the fascist nihilists, those whose envy at the west turns into a mortal self-destructive hatred. Badiou makes it clear that what the media call the "radicalisation" of Muslims is Fascisation simple and pure:
"this fascism is the obverse of the frustrated desire for the west which is organized in a more or less military way following the flexible model of a mafia gang and with variable ideological colorisations where the place occupied by religion is purely formal."
The western middle class ideology has two opposed features: it displays arrogance and belief in the superiority of its values (universal human rights and freedoms threatened by the barbarian outsiders), but, simultaneously, it is obsessed by the fear that its limited domain will be invaded by the billions outside, who do not count in global capitalism since they are neither producing commodities nor consuming them. The fear of its members is that they will join those excluded.
The clearest expression of the "desire for the west" are immigrant refugees: their desire is not a revolutionary one, it is the desire to leave behind their devastated habitat and rejoin the promised land of the developed west. (Those who remain behind try to create there miserable copies of western prosperity, like the "modernised" parts in every third world metropolis, in Luanda, in Lagos, etc, with cafeterias selling cappuccinos, shopping malls, and so on).
But since, for the large majority of pretenders, this desire cannot be satisfied, one of the remaining options is the nihilist reversal: frustration and envy get radicalised into a murderous and self-destructive hatred of the west, and people get engaged in violent revenge. Badiou proclaims this violence a pure expression of death drive, a violence that can only culminate in acts of orgiastic (self)destruction, without any serious vision of an alternate society.
Badiou is right to emphasise that there is no emancipatory potential in fundamentalist violence, however anti-capitalist it claims to be: it is a phenomenon strictly inherent to the global capitalist universe, its "hidden phantom". The basic fact of fundamentalist fascism is envy. Fundamentalism remains rooted in the desire for the west in its very hatred of the west. We are dealing here with the standard reversal of frustrated desire into aggressiveness described by psychoanalysis, and Islam just provides the form to ground this (self)destructive hatred. This destructive potential of envy is the base of Rousseau's well-known distinction between egotism, amour-de-soi (that love of the self which is natural), and amour-propre, the perverted preferring of oneself to others in which a person focuses not on achieving a goal, but on destroying the obstacle to it:
"The primitive passions, which all directly tend towards our happiness, make us deal only with objects which relate to them, and whose principle is only amour-de-soi, are all in their essence lovable and tender; however, when, diverted from their objects by obstacles, they are more occupied with the obstacle they try to get rid of, than with the object they try to reach, they change their nature and become irascible and hateful. This is how amour-de-soi, which is a noble and absolute feeling, becomes amour-propre, that is to say, a relative feeling by means of which one compares oneself, a feeling which demands preferences, whose enjoyment is purely negative and which does not strive to find satisfaction in our own well-being, but only in the misfortune of others."2
An evil person is thus not an egotist, "thinking only about his own interests". A true egotist is too busy taking care of his own good to have time to cause misfortune to others. The primary vice of a bad person is that he is more preoccupied with others than with himself. Rousseau is describing a precise libidinal mechanism: the inversion which generates the shift of the libidinal investment from the object to the obstacle itself. This could well be applied to fundamentalist violence – be it the Oklahoma bombings or the attack on the Twin Towers. In both cases, we were dealing with hatred pure and simple: destroying the obstacle, the Oklahoma City Federal Building, the Twin Towers, was what really mattered, not achieving the noble goal of a truly Christian or Muslim society.3
Such a fascisation can exert a certain attraction to the frustrated immigrant youth which cannot find a proper place in western societies or a prospect to identify with – fascisation offers them an easy way out of their frustration: an eventful risky life dressed up in a sacrificial religious dedication, plus material satisfaction (sex, cars, weapons...). One should not forget that the Islamic State is also a big mafia trading company selling oil, ancient statues, cotton, arms and women-slaves, "a mixture of deadly heroic propositions and, simultaneously, of western corruption by products".
It goes by itself that this fundamentalist-fascist violence is just one of the modes of violence that pertains to global capitalism, and that one should bear in mind not only the forms of fundamentalist violence in western countries themselves (anti-immigrant populism, etc), but above all the systematic violence of capitalism itself, from the catastrophic consequences of global economy to the long story of military interventions. Islamo-Fascism is a profoundly reactive phenomenon in Nietzschean sense of the term, an expression of impotence converted into self-destructive rage.
While agreeing with the overall thrust of Badiou's analysis, I find three of its claims problematic. First, the reduction of religion, the religious form of fascist nihilism, to a secondary superficial feature: "Religion is only a clothing, it is in no way the heart of the matter, only a form of subjectivisation, not the real content of the thing." Badiou is totally right in his claim that the search for the roots of today's Muslim terrorism in ancient religious texts (the "it is all already in Quran" story) is misleading: one should instead focus on today's global capitalism and conceive Islamo-fascism as one of the modes to react to its lure by way of inverting envy into hatred. But is, from a critical standpoint, religion not always a kind of clothing, rather than the heart of the matter? Is religion not in its very core a "form of subjectivisation" of people's predicament? And does this not imply that a clothing IS in some sense the "heart of the matter", the way individuals experience their situation – there is no way for them to step back and see somehow from outside how things "really are"... Then, the all too fast identification of refugees and migrants with a "nomadic proletariat", a "virtual vanguard of the gigantic mass of the people whose existence is not counted prise en compte in the world the way it is". Are migrants (mostly, at least) not those most strongly possessed by the "desire for the west", most strongly in the thrall of hegemonic ideology? Finally, the naïve demand that we should:
"go and see who is this other about whom on talks, who are they really. We have to gather their thoughts, their ideas, their vision of things, and inscribe them, and ourselves simultaneously, into a strategic vision of the fate of humanity".
Easy to say, difficult to do. This other is, as Badiou himself describes, utterly disoriented, possessed by the opposing attitudes of envy and hatred, a hatred which ultimately expresses its own repressed desire for the west (which is why hatred turns into a self-destruction). It is part of a naive humanist metaphysics to presuppose that beneath this vicious cycle of desire, envy and hatred, there is some "deeper" human core of global solidarity. Stories abound about how, among the refugees, many Syrians are an exception: in transition camps they clean the dirt they leave behind, they behave in a polite and respectful way, many of them are well-educated and speak English, they often even pay for what they consume... in short, we feel they are like ourselves, our educated and civilised middle classes.
It is popular to claim that the violent refugees represent a minority, and that the large majority has a deep respect for women... while this is of course true, one should nonetheless cast a closer look into the structure of this respect: what kind of woman is "respected", and what is expected from her? What if a woman is "respected" insofar (and only insofar) as she fits the ideal of a docile servant faithfully doing her home chores, so that her man has the right to explode in fury if she "goes viral" and acts in full autonomy?
Our media usually draw a distinction between "civilised" middle-class refugees and "barbarian" lower class refugees who steal, harass our citizens, behave violently towards women, defecate in public... Instead of dismissing all this as racist propaganda, one should gather the courage to discern a moment of truth in it: brutality, up to outright cruelty towards the weak, animals, women, etc, is a traditional feature of the "lower classes"; one of their strategies of resisting those in power always was a terrifying display of brutality aimed at disturbing the middle-class sense of decency. And one is tempted to read in this way also what happened on New Year's Eve in Cologne – as an obscene lower-class carnival:
"German police are investigating reports that scores of women were sexually assaulted and mugged in Cologne city centre during New Year's Eve celebrations, in what a minister called a 'completely new dimension of crime'. According to the police, those allegedly responsible for the sex attacks and numerous robberies were of Arab and north African origin. Over 100 complaints were filed to police, a third of which were linked to sexual assault. The city centre turned into a 'lawless zone': between 500 and 1000 men described as drunk and aggressive are believed to have been behind the attacks on partygoers in the centre of the western German city. Whether they were working as a single group or in separate gangs remains unclear. Women reported being tightly surrounded by groups of men who harassed and mugged them. Some people threw fireworks into the crowds, adding to the chaos. One of the victims had been raped. A volunteer policewoman was among those said to have been sexually assaulted."4
As expected, the incident is growing: now over 500 complaints have been filed from women, with similar incidents in other German cities (and in Sweden). There are indications that attacks were coordinated in advance, plus right-wing anti-immigrant barbarian "defenders of the civilised west" are striking back with attacks on immigrants, so that the spiral of violence threatens to be unleashed... And, as expected, the politically correct liberal Left mobilised its resources to downplay the incident in the same way it did in the case in Rotherham.
But there is more, much more, to it: the Cologne carnival should be located in the long line whose first recorded case reaches back to Paris of the 1730s, to the so-called "Great Cat Massacre" described by Robert Darnton5, when a group of printing apprentices tortured and ritually killed all the cats they could find, including the pet of their master's wife. The apprentices were literally treated worse than cats adored by the master's wife, especially la grise (the grey), her favorite. One night the boys resolved to right this inequitable state of affairs: they dumped sack-loads of half-dead cats in the courtyard and then strung them up on an improvised gallows, the men delirious with joy, disorder, and laughter... Why was the killing so funny?
During carnival the common people suspended the normal rules of behavior and ceremoniously reversed the social order or turned it upside down in riotous procession. Carnival was high season for hilarity, sexuality, and youth run riot, and the crowd often incorporated cat torture into its rough music. While mocking a cuckold or some other victim, the youths passed around a cat, tearing its fur to make it howl. Faire le chat, they called it. The Germans called it Katzenmusik, a term that may have been derived from the howls of tortured cats. The torture of animals, especially cats, was a popular amusement throughout early modern Europe. The power of cats was concentrated on the most intimate aspect of domestic life: sex. Le chat, la chatte, le minet mean the same thing in French slang as "pussy" does in English, and they have served as obscenities for centuries.
So what if we conceive of the Cologne incident as a contemporary version of faire le chat? As a carnivalesque rebellion of the underdogs? It wasn't the simple urge for satisfaction of sexually starved young men – this could be done in a more discreet, hidden way – it was foremost a public spectacle of installing fear and humiliation, of exposing the "pussies" of the privileged Germans to painful helplessness. There is, of course, nothing redemptive or emancipatory, nothing effectively liberating, in such a carnival – but this is how actual carnivals work.
This is why the naive attempts to enlighten immigrants (explaining to them that our sexual mores are different, that a woman who walks in public in a mini skirt and smiles does not thereby signal sexual invitation, etc.) are examples of breath-taking stupidity – they know this and that's why they are doing it. They are well aware that what they are doing is foreign to our predominant culture, but they are doing it precisely to wound our sensitivities. The task is to change this stance of envy and revengeful aggressiveness, not to teach them what they already know very well.
The difficult lesson of this entire affair is thus that it is not enough to simply give voice to the underdogs the way they are: in order to enact actual emancipation, they have to be educated (by others and by themselves) into their freedom.
Was this by Google Translate?
I think you are overdoing your philosophical rhapsodies and cultural references when you try to relate the events in Cologne with some apprentices killing their master's cat in 18th century Paris.
Quote from: Zanza on February 08, 2016, 06:52:42 AM
I think you are overdoing your philosophical rhapsodies and cultural references when you try to relate the events in Cologne with some apprentices killing their master's cat in 18th century Paris.
Let alone defining Fascists as "those whose envy at the west turns into a mortal self-destructive hatred." Radical Islam is not much like Fascism except for the idea that violence solves problems. Fascism is an ideology for industrializing societies. Radical Islam is largely anti-industrial.
At a carnival parade in Ilmtal, Bavaria: "Ilmtal's Asylum Defense" (the left side had "Asylpaket III" painted on it in reference to the recent federal law package "Asylpaket II".
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.nzz.ch%2Feos%2Fv2%2Fimage%2Fview%2F620%2F-%2Ftext%2Finset%2F2ddf464b%2F1.18691775%2F1454930918%2Fsteinkirchen.jpg&hash=98c459ee9c80066481e7bb69df94d9b44fdc4834)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaofvGMUkAIf7NH.jpg)
I have to say, that's a pretty decent Tiger I mock up.
Other parades similarly questioned Germany's asylum politics. In Saxony, a mock up train was labeled "Balkan Express", with people dressed as locusts on/around it.
Quote
This is why the naive attempts to enlighten immigrants (explaining to them that our sexual mores are different, that a woman who walks in public in a mini skirt and smiles does not thereby signal sexual invitation, etc.) are examples of breath-taking stupidity – they know this and that's why they are doing it. They are well aware that what they are doing is foreign to our predominant culture, but they are doing it precisely to wound our sensitivities. The task is to change this stance of envy and revengeful aggressiveness, not to teach them what they already know very well.
Well that's a naiive thing to say.
Of course we know that the immigrants know these things. These bits of "in the west we think women are people too" education aren't meant go be ground breaking concepts for the immigrants. Just gentle reminders that we actually take this seriously and they shouldn't get too carried away with the new freedom.
And that they're doing it just to troll us....oh come on.
It's not trolling but... Every success these guys had in their journey from their country to origin to their promised land was in active opposition against any law they encountered.
From buying their place on a boat from a criminal to marching through borders and motorways in the EU - if they respected the local laws they would be still back in their desperate situations at home, or at the very least in a EU country they find a sub-optimal choice.
Active and at times agressive defiance of the European laws and customs and pushing of their own personal agenda against all those is what have worked for them. I guess it is somewhat natural they would continue this course even after arrival.
That's.....an excellent point that makes most of my objections to this entire process far clearer, and is better stated. Congrats Tamas.
I wonder whether culture shock may play a part.
Knowing things are one way and actually experiencing it are different things.
Considering life for most of them in the west is rather shit and they expected more they could be stuck in the rejection stage of culture shock.
I think it is a redundant point, but one that unfortunately needs to be addressed because of the left's naive stances.
Both the arguments that "all refugees are great people" and "refugees are going to benefit Europe economically" are doubtful at best and completely false at worst. The problem is that by debunking them, the entire justification for accepting refugees crumbles - and the continuous insistence of the left that they are true simply destroys any credibility, pushing the public into the right wingers' hands.
Refugees are going to be very demoralized after their ordeal, and that's on top of the dysfunctional culture they are coming from influencing their behaviour.
The real question is not even moral (although I guess for those who like to think themselves Christians, I don't think Jesus has ever qualified his teachings by giving aid and assistance only to people who are nice - rather, he preached the opposite - helping our enemies and members of the hostile tribe), it is practical - what is the alternative? Do we have resources to keep refugees at bay indefinitely (and with global warming and increasing hostilities in Africa and Middle East the problem is going to increase, not decrease, in foreseeable future). If not, then we better find a solution for accepting and processing them that promises at least some degree of social cohesion and order.
That last line of yours calls for such an obvious nazi joke that I am not going to make it.
Quote from: Tamas on February 08, 2016, 10:49:15 AM
That last line of yours calls for such an obvious nazi joke that I am not going to make it.
I admit I was fishing for puns. I even changed "method" to "solution" in the last redraft of that post. :blush:
Anyway, thoughts on the merits of my post, as opposed to its pun-ability? :P
Well we have mentioned this here already, and especiall for me is the most frustrating part about this crisis: at this stage it is almost guaranteed that it is going to push the EU into an era of desintegration and far-right rule of darkness.
You have a naiive view of the left.
I doubt anyone believes the incomers are all great people. But the welcoming language being used and speaking about them in friendly terms? It's not naiivety. It's diplomacy. It's encouraging friendliness and smooth integration.
If a politician comes out and says " I hate all these brown bastards" then he's really not setting things up for a particularly good solution, he's saying there's no point in trying right from the start.
Definitely agreed that we need a better way to handle them. You'll find the left are chief amongst those upset at the current less than ideal situation
Quote from: Tamas on February 08, 2016, 10:57:06 AM
Well we have mentioned this here already, and especiall for me is the most frustrating part about this crisis: at this stage it is almost guaranteed that it is going to push the EU into an era of desintegration and far-right rule of darkness.
nice hyperbole.
Quote from: Tamas on February 08, 2016, 10:57:06 AM
Well we have mentioned this here already, and especiall for me is the most frustrating part about this crisis: at this stage it is almost guaranteed that it is going to push the EU into an era of desintegration and far-right rule of darkness.
I don't know. There would be worse things than moving past Europe that has spent the better part of the last 50 years in paralytic, self-aggrandizing guilt.
Quote from: Syt on February 08, 2016, 08:35:57 AM
Other parades similarly questioned Germany's asylum politics. In Saxony, a mock up train was labeled "Balkan Express", with people dressed as locusts on/around it.
Some others: ^_^
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGfHjt41.jpg&hash=603cecdf34e691c4a3ecf6a4cb35f38b107c7e65)
"Refugee Wave"
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FF4h16gc.jpg&hash=000cef097dc11a90943ff22bd4c372fcdd2c310c)
Small fish: "Welcome Culture", big fish "New Years in Cologne"
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wz.de%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.2119692.1454929105%21%2FhttpImage%2FonlineImage.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Flandscape_550%2FonlineImage.jpg&hash=4443d4dc8bd86f9bf8fb8ac74949c55b733e2018)
Kurden are Kurds
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMjUREBn.jpg&hash=2c0d639e8c6c52a8a174f8deab470362a136d396)
Self-aggrandizing guilt? :unsure:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 03:13:50 PM
Self-aggrandizing guilt? :unsure:
"All of this is happening because European powers were colonial rulers of the Levant for 30 years."
Quote from: Queequeg on February 08, 2016, 03:31:33 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 03:13:50 PM
Self-aggrandizing guilt? :unsure:
"All of this is happening because European powers were colonial rulers of the Levant for 30 years."
Yet the one place they did not colonize is the source of all (well ok a great deal of) the problems.
Quote from: Queequeg on February 08, 2016, 03:31:33 PM
"All of this is happening because European powers were colonial rulers of the Levant for 30 years."
And that aggrandizes themselves how exactly?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 03:39:27 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on February 08, 2016, 03:31:33 PM
"All of this is happening because European powers were colonial rulers of the Levant for 30 years."
And that aggrandizes themselves how exactly?
Everything that happens happens because of the actions of Europeans.
Quote from: The Brain on February 08, 2016, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 03:39:27 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on February 08, 2016, 03:31:33 PM
"All of this is happening because European powers were colonial rulers of the Levant for 30 years."
And that aggrandizes themselves how exactly?
Everything that happens happens because of the actions of Europeans.
Exactly.
Anticolonialism and Postcolonialism has ironically made the history of all of not-Europe a response to Europe.
queeq, what do you think is the cause if you think western powers weren't hugely influential in what's going down in the middle east? you never posted in that thread ages back where I literally said something like, "hey, it'd be nice if queeq was around to talk about ancient islam conquest of egypt"
if your argument stems from some weird projection based off bad mormon upbringing (or somethingsomething bactria), I'm gonna be disappointed
Quote from: LaCroix on February 09, 2016, 03:19:57 AM
queeq, what do you think is the cause if you think western powers weren't hugely influential in what's going down in the middle east? you never posted in that thread ages back where I literally said something like, "hey, it'd be nice if queeq was around to talk about ancient islam conquest of egypt"
if your argument stems from some weird projection based off bad mormon upbringing (or somethingsomething bactria), I'm gonna be disappointed
There have been plenty of fuckups by firs world powers in the Middle East, but blaming everything on them creates a narrative where the ME had functional and peaceful societies until the Europeans came about. Which isn't true, unless you count 500 years of ruthless Ottoman oppression a functional and peaceful society.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 09, 2016, 03:19:57 AM
queeq, what do you think is the cause if you think western powers weren't hugely influential in what's going down in the middle east? you never posted in that thread ages back where I literally said something like, "hey, it'd be nice if queeq was around to talk about ancient islam conquest of egypt"
if your argument stems from some weird projection based off bad mormon upbringing (or somethingsomething bactria), I'm gonna be disappointed
Honestly, the Ottomans. I'd mellowed in my anti-Ottoman Byzanteen prejudices when I was in College/doing my Masters but being in the Balkans has, well, confirmed everything. A journey from north to south Serbia-from the old Austrian frontier to Rashka and Kosovo-is a journey from Europe to, well, ethnic hatred, tribal thinking and chronic underdevelopment. It's not some kind of mistake that we've now spent more than a century fighting wars stemming from the utter failure of the Ottoman Empire. Gavrilo Princip, Mlada Bosna, ISIS, Al Qaeda-same parents.
The Ottomans legacy here is astonishing. You go through regions that were supposedly favored-Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo-and they just didn't build shit. The sole legacy of the Empire was the creation of ethnic hierarchies premised on hatred, oppression and continued poverty. No literacy. Minimal trade networks. Minimal investment. You go to the great recruiting grounds of the greatest Ottoman soldiers and statesmen and the only impressive buildings are pre-Ottoman. They make the Austrians look like goddamned Cyrus the Great. It's incredible. The Porte didn't give a shit if central Hungary was almost unpopulated. They didn't care if a million Serbs fled Kosovo for the Austrian frontier. They didn't care if Albania was ludicrously poor as long as Albanian tribes could be counted on to repress the occasional Serb or Greek rebellion. That was the logic of the entire Empire. The Western colonialists just imitated that for a few decades.
Well the primary role of the provinces for a couple centuries there was to be farmed by corrupt Pashas.
Quote from: Valmy on February 09, 2016, 08:45:22 AM
Well the primary role of the provinces for a couple centuries there was to be farmed by corrupt Pashas.
That does not go against my "the Ottomans were terrible" hypothesis.
Actually part of the point. They would bleed the Balkans to build horrible, tacky palaces along the Bosporus.
Quote from: Queequeg on February 09, 2016, 09:07:44 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 09, 2016, 08:45:22 AM
Well the primary role of the provinces for a couple centuries there was to be farmed by corrupt Pashas.
That does not go against my "the Ottomans were terrible" hypothesis.
Actually part of the point. They would bleed the Balkans to build horrible, tacky palaces along the Bosporus.
No it does not. But the Ottoman Empire was a self-perpetuating bureaucratic state whose strength primary resided with its almost implacable inertia. In order for it to function as designed it needed a strong and vigorous Sultan (or failing that a strong Vizier with imperial support), without that nobody would (or rather could) actually attempt to do anything productive beyond just feather their nest. But great leadership from the top was not a hallmark of the Ottoman Empire from about 1600 onwards.
Honestly, the Ottomans were a shitshow for everyone even on their good days.
I'm trying to conquer the world with the Ottomans and you guys are killing my buzz. <_< :P
Quote from: The Brain on February 08, 2016, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 03:39:27 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on February 08, 2016, 03:31:33 PM
"All of this is happening because European powers were colonial rulers of the Levant for 30 years."
And that aggrandizes themselves how exactly?
Everything that happens happens because of the actions of Europeans.
I certainly read a lot of people blaming this refugee crisis on the most visible European politician, Angela Merkel, and not on the wars in the Middle East, economic malaise in Africa or hopelessness in the Western Balkans.
Quote from: Zanza on February 09, 2016, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 08, 2016, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 03:39:27 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on February 08, 2016, 03:31:33 PM
"All of this is happening because European powers were colonial rulers of the Levant for 30 years."
And that aggrandizes themselves how exactly?
Everything that happens happens because of the actions of Europeans.
I certainly read a lot of people blaming this refugee crisis on the most visible European politician, Angela Merkel, and not on the wars in the Middle East, economic malaise in Africa or hopelessness in the Western Balkans.
more then enough people blaming this on wars waged by the west, western imperialism, colonialism, neo-colonialism, and about anything else you can imagine, as long as the 'white man' is to blame for it. Merkel gets blamed for inviting them all in.
If that's your perception of reality...
Quote from: Queequeg on February 09, 2016, 09:07:44 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 09, 2016, 08:45:22 AM
Well the primary role of the provinces for a couple centuries there was to be farmed by corrupt Pashas.
That does not go against my "the Ottomans were terrible" hypothesis.
Actually part of the point. They would bleed the Balkans to build horrible, tacky palaces along the Bosporus.
Which is probably better than any use anyone has found for Balkans ever since.
Quote from: Zanza on February 09, 2016, 03:14:03 PM
If that's your perception of reality...
just saying what's in the left leaning press, not my problem if you can't accept that.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 09, 2016, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 09, 2016, 03:14:03 PM
If that's your perception of reality...
just saying what's in the left leaning press, not my problem if you can't accept that.
Fortunately the right know the real source of the problem. Jews. Jews are trying to destroy European culture by inundating it with brown people.
Quote from: Queequeg on February 09, 2016, 06:16:23 AMHonestly, the Ottomans. I'd mellowed in my anti-Ottoman Byzanteen prejudices when I was in College/doing my Masters but being in the Balkans has, well, confirmed everything. A journey from north to south Serbia-from the old Austrian frontier to Rashka and Kosovo-is a journey from Europe to, well, ethnic hatred, tribal thinking and chronic underdevelopment. It's not some kind of mistake that we've now spent more than a century fighting wars stemming from the utter failure of the Ottoman Empire. Gavrilo Princip, Mlada Bosna, ISIS, Al Qaeda-same parents.
The Ottomans legacy here is astonishing. You go through regions that were supposedly favored-Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo-and they just didn't build shit. The sole legacy of the Empire was the creation of ethnic hierarchies premised on hatred, oppression and continued poverty. No literacy. Minimal trade networks. Minimal investment. You go to the great recruiting grounds of the greatest Ottoman soldiers and statesmen and the only impressive buildings are pre-Ottoman. They make the Austrians look like goddamned Cyrus the Great. It's incredible. The Porte didn't give a shit if central Hungary was almost unpopulated. They didn't care if a million Serbs fled Kosovo for the Austrian frontier. They didn't care if Albania was ludicrously poor as long as Albanian tribes could be counted on to repress the occasional Serb or Greek rebellion. That was the logic of the entire Empire. The Western colonialists just imitated that for a few decades.
much appreciated :)
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2016, 04:46:56 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 09, 2016, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 09, 2016, 03:14:03 PM
If that's your perception of reality...
just saying what's in the left leaning press, not my problem if you can't accept that.
Fortunately the right know the real source of the problem. Jews. Jews are trying to destroy European culture by inundating it with brown people.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 10, 2016, 04:04:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2016, 04:46:56 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 09, 2016, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 09, 2016, 03:14:03 PM
If that's your perception of reality...
just saying what's in the left leaning press, not my problem if you can't accept that.
Fortunately the right know the real source of the problem. Jews. Jews are trying to destroy European culture by inundating it with brown people.
:rolleyes:
Just saying what's in the right leaning parties, not my problem if you can't accept that.
Is Raz a sassy big and beautiful black woman?
Quote from: Syt on February 08, 2016, 08:35:57 AM
At a carnival parade in Ilmtal, Bavaria: "Ilmtal's Asylum Defense" (the left side had "Asylpaket III" painted on it in reference to the recent federal law package "Asylpaket II".
I have to say, that's a pretty decent Tiger I mock up.
Other parades similarly questioned Germany's asylum politics. In Saxony, a mock up train was labeled "Balkan Express", with people dressed as locusts on/around it.
Ed Anger probably has a similar mock up built onto his riding lawn mower.
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 10, 2016, 12:32:51 PM
Ed Anger probably has a similar mock up built onto his riding lawn mower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9mkuPxHsK0
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2016, 11:14:37 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 10, 2016, 04:04:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2016, 04:46:56 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 09, 2016, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 09, 2016, 03:14:03 PM
If that's your perception of reality...
just saying what's in the left leaning press, not my problem if you can't accept that.
Fortunately the right know the real source of the problem. Jews. Jews are trying to destroy European culture by inundating it with brown people.
:rolleyes:
Just saying what's in the right leaning parties, not my problem if you can't accept that.
so you agree that the leftist press will blame west for all that's wrong in the world first, and only lay the blame where it belong after the political-correct bs has been stripped away. Nice to hear.
Quote from: Syt on February 10, 2016, 12:37:25 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 10, 2016, 12:32:51 PM
Ed Anger probably has a similar mock up built onto his riding lawn mower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9mkuPxHsK0
EMERGERD
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 10, 2016, 03:33:53 PM
so you agree that the leftist press will blame west for all that's wrong in the world first, and only lay the blame where it belong after the political-correct bs has been stripped away. Nice to hear.
Did my English words get confused for Flemish ones with completely different meanings? Cause I have no idea how you came to that conclusion based on what I said. On the other hand, http://global100.adl.org/#country/belgium/2014 It seems pretty clear that a lot of Belgians don't like Jews.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2016, 08:42:55 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 10, 2016, 03:33:53 PM
so you agree that the leftist press will blame west for all that's wrong in the world first, and only lay the blame where it belong after the political-correct bs has been stripped away. Nice to hear.
Did my English words get confused for Flemish ones with completely different meanings? Cause I have no idea how you came to that conclusion based on what I said. On the other hand, http://global100.adl.org/#country/belgium/2014 It seems pretty clear that a lot of Belgians don't like Jews.
When somebody makes an assertion about what "the left" does, and you counter with one about what "the right" does rather than a rebuttal, it can be taken as tacit acceptance- "That's ok, because your side is worse."
He was talking about news media. I can't comment on his news Media because I don't speak Flemish. I mention the right wing parties, who go on about the "Muslim question" in the same way their grandfathers fretted about the "Jewish question". The Europeans will deal with the "Semites" in the same old way, and the US will hang Europe's nationalists in the same old way.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2016, 11:30:31 PM
the US will hang Europe's nationalists in the same old way.
Huh. I must have missed this part of our history.
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2016, 11:31:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2016, 11:30:31 PM
the US will hang Europe's nationalists in the same old way.
Huh. I must have missed this part of our history.
1946. The last time with the Serbs we left it to the Europeans to try and punish the guilty, and they still haven't managed it. I hasten to remind you that we Americans have also hung Japanese and Iraqis for genocide as well. As the European far right works itself into a murderous frenzy, we should remind them that that road ends in a short drop.
Raz, are you seriously implying that the US got involved in WWII because of the Holocaust? :lol:
No, but we did get involved in Yugoslavia when you guys started acting up. We do punish this sort of thing.
If the Euro rightwing parties take over and start busing the refugees back to Turkey, the US ain't gonna do shit.
If you elect Trump (and likely you will), you will even help us.
Quote from: Martinus on February 11, 2016, 01:39:55 AM
If you elect Trump (and likely you will), you will even help us.
:lol: yeah, that won't happen.
Trump's chance to win is around 0%
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 11, 2016, 01:36:55 AM
If the Euro rightwing parties take over and start busing the refugees back to Turkey, the US ain't gonna do shit.
Turkey won't be happy. A "you take them/no you take them" war between nato nations sounds preventable and worthy of action
I imagine Turkey can be paid off.
Local politician from the Sweden Democrats thinks refugees have poor table manners. That settles the refugee question I think.
http://www.nbcnews.com/slideshow/migrants-find-hope-darkness-remote-norway-refugee-camp-n520121 (http://www.nbcnews.com/slideshow/migrants-find-hope-darkness-remote-norway-refugee-camp-n520121)
Quote
Migrants find refuge in frozen, far-northern Norway
By KARL RITTER
The Associated Press
HAMMERFEST, Norway (AP) — After hiding below the horizon for two long months, the sun has finally risen in Hammerfest, casting a pale pink hue over the Arctic landscape surrounding the world's northernmost refugee shelter.
From her modest room, Huda al-Haggar admires the wonderland of snow and ice, a sight so different from her native Yemen, where a Saudi airstrike destroyed her home, forcing her to flee with her young son.
"It's wonderful when I wake up in the morning and see this picture, the sea and the mountains. It's a wonderful place," the young woman says as 5-year-old Omar plays with Lego on her lap.
The wooden barracks where al-Haggar and her son live used to house oil workers until Europe's migrant crisis reached the jagged shores of northern Norway, where the continent drops dramatically into the Arctic Ocean.
Waiting for their asylum claims to be processed, hundreds of people in emergency shelters in Hammerfest and neighboring towns are slowly getting used to the extreme climate and unfamiliar customs of the High North.
They say they have adapted to the cold — the temperature rarely drops below minus 10 degrees C (14 F) along the coast, though it gets much colder further inland. It's the darkness that throws them off.
Rami Saad, a 23-year-old Syrian from Damascus with a neatly groomed beard and tight slacks, says workers at the Hammerfest center warned him about the polar night but he didn't believe them until late November, when "suddenly there was no sun."
The lack of daylight messed up his body clock, like the day when he rolled out of bed at 11 and ambled to the cafeteria to have lunch.
"But there was nobody there," Saad says, giggling. "It was 11 p.m."
Few of the asylum-seekers expected to end up here, 280 miles (460 kilometers) north of the Arctic Circle, when they left their homelands in the Middle East, Africa and Asia to escape violence, poverty, forced marriages or armies they didn't want to join.
Some were relocated by Norwegian authorities after entering the country from Sweden in the south. Others blazed a new trail into Western Europe by first entering Russia and then crossing its Arctic border with Norway.
More than 5,000 people, mostly Syrians and Afghans, used that route last year before the government tightened the border in November and started deporting those who were not deemed to be in need of protection in Norway.
Though that's just a trickle compared to the 1 million people who entered Europe last year from the south across the Mediterranean Sea, it forced Norwegian authorities to quickly set up migrant shelters in small towns separated by mile upon mile of untouched wilderness.
In Alta, a scenic two-hour drive to the south, the Northern Lights Hotel was converted into a shelter for unaccompanied minors. On Seiland island, a nature reserve west of Hammerfest, Stig Erland Hansen was asked to temporarily house dozens of asylum-seekers in a remote lodge where he hosts adventure tourists during the summer.
"At first I thought it was crazy," Hansen says, clasping a cup of black coffee inside the main cabin. "Is it possible to have people in darkness on an island?"
Not only was it possible, it was a big success, according to Hansen and Paal Mannsverk, who manages the camp, a cluster of wooden houses facing a pristine fjord. Reachable only by boat, the isolated location gives you a sense of being at the end of the world — or as Mannsverk put it: "north of the middle of nowhere."
Yet the 36 asylum-seekers staying here, all but one from Afghanistan, seem surprisingly at ease. Hansen and Mannsverk say it's because they try to keep them active: fishing, chopping wood, sledding, skiing, and hiking instead of just sitting around waiting for a decision by the Norwegian Immigration Directorate, which can take more than a year.
The camp on Seiland is a far cry from the crowded and jail-like migrant centers in some parts of Europe. Afghan children laugh and holler as they sled down the slope from the camp to the rocky shoreline, where men speaking Dari rinse fish caught in the icy fjord.
Later, as the sun drops behind the mountains, they will cook them over an open fire with onion, tomatoes, eggs and spices brought in from the mainland.
To some the contrast with the life they left behind is almost surreal.
"I was in Afghanistan, a country far away from here and now I'm in the north of Norway. I could never have imagined this," says 20-year-old Zakria Sedequi.
He says he fled Afghanistan's Maidan Wardak province after the Taliban tried to recruit him. An ugly scar over his left eyebrow suggests they didn't ask nicely. Sedequi says they rammed the butt of a Kalashnikov rifle into his forehead. He documented the bloody mess with his cellphone camera.
Inside the camp, 62-year-old Shukria Nawabi tears up as she recalls the hardship her family faced in Kabul. She has lived on Seiland since October with her husband, daughter and grand-daughter Helenar, a 7-year-old with pigtails, pink tights and a sheepish smile.
"We escaped from enemies in our life," Nawabi says through an interpreter, declining to delve into the details.
Wrapped in a shawl, her daughter, Sufya, seems almost offended when asked whether the family struggled to adjust to the darkness on this desolate island.
"If you were in my place," she says, "where bombs are going off in the street, where women are treated badly, and you come to this place, would you worry about the darkness and the isolation?"
A handful of young men who were transferred to Seiland didn't see it that way. They decided this wasn't the place for them, packed up their belongings and asked to be taken ashore. Some went back to Russia, where they had been studying. A couple traveled all the way to Italy, says Mannsverk.
By the spring, the lodge will go back to its regular tourist business and the asylum-seekers will have to be transferred elsewhere, perhaps to permanent asylum centers like the one in Alta. The city of 20,000 has years of experience with integrating asylum-seekers into the local community.
The staff at the Hero asylum center in Alta try to prepare the newcomers for life in Norway by teaching them local customs, including how to treat women, a subject given particular attention after reports of mass sex assaults blamed on migrants in Germany on New Year's eve.
"Norwegian women can drink alcohol and be loud just like men. This is completely normal in Norwegian society," says Ingunn Soergaard, a petite woman with waist-length hair and a crystal-white smile.
Her audience of 18 asylum-seekers, mostly from Syria, look at her with bewilderment. Not because they think it's weird that Norwegian women drink, but that Soergaard thinks they don't know that.
"We've seen that on TV. And we know that's how it is here. It's not an issue," says Anod al-Ali, a 31-year-old teacher from Syria.
Soergaard's co-presenter, Goeran Johansen, decides to push the issue further.
"Let's say I'm meeting Ingunn for the first time and she invites me home to have sex," Johansen says. "And then suddenly at home she says, 'No, I don't want to have sex.' What do you do?"
Some of the students shift awkwardly in their seats. Walaa Aziri, a 23-year-old Palestinian woman with a hijab turns bright red and hides her face in her hands.
Finally, Ahmed Dawwas, a 36-year-old engineer who fled the Syrian city of Raqqa, an Islamic State stronghold, breaks the silence by turning the question around.
"What if she invites me and I say no? How should she react?" Dawwas asks.
When the laughter dies down, he strikes a more serious tone.
"We have come here to live in peace," he says. "We have fled war. We're not here to go after women. I don't understand why this has to be explained to all Syrians."
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.s-nbcnews.com%2Fj%2Fnewscms%2F2016_07%2F1421231%2Fss-160217-norway-migrants-02_5213e84b6996696bd9de495624c6915e.nbcnews-ux-1024-900.jpg&hash=92689d4dbe83935e0689ed586883c10661aaaf4c)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia3.s-nbcnews.com%2Fj%2Fnewscms%2F2016_07%2F1421236%2Fss-160217-norway-migrants-03_5213e84b6996696bd9de495624c6915e.nbcnews-ux-1024-900.jpg&hash=1a3b71596ccebeb62ae782fab73297e104f321d5)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia2.s-nbcnews.com%2Fj%2Fnewscms%2F2016_07%2F1421196%2Fss-160217-norway-migrants-07_5213e84b6996696bd9de495624c6915e.nbcnews-ux-1024-900.jpg&hash=e4bed6c46460756b88cdfb85c3f7f75ea3c168b6)
Wait wasn't I told that the immigrants are all going to rebel unless settled in comfy homes in major cities and putting them in the dying countryside would be a cruel travesty? :hmm:
That was interesting.
It has to be incredibly awkward to trying to explain stuff like that. On the one hand, it seems blindingly obvious, yet...apparently it isn't so obvious in some cases. How do you know which is which?
Quote"I was in Afghanistan, a country far away from here and now I'm in the north of Norway. I could never have imagined this," says 20-year-old Zakria Sedequi.
He says he fled Afghanistan's Maidan Wardak province after the Taliban tried to recruit him. An ugly scar over his left eyebrow suggests they didn't ask nicely. Sedequi says they rammed the butt of a Kalashnikov rifle into his forehead. He documented the bloody mess with his cellphone camera.
OMG HE IS A YOUNG HEALTHY MALE WITH A CELLPHONE!! HE HAD ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO LEAVE EXCEPT TO RAPE!!!!11111
Treating people like people tends to yield positive results. Shocker.
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2016, 03:53:47 PM
Treating people like people tends to yield positive results. Shocker.
The implication being that Germans do not treat people like people?
The lesson, if any, that can be drawn from this is small groups of refugee families with children are going to be less rapey than single male refugees in cities.
It's in Norway. We still have some basic decency left.
The article makes little mention of the numbers thrown into the cold of Russia because their papers aren't right. The Conservative Party says hi.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2016, 04:26:33 PM
Quote from: Tyr on February 19, 2016, 03:53:47 PM
Treating people like people tends to yield positive results. Shocker.
The implication being that Germans do not treat people like people?
The lesson, if any, that can be drawn from this is small groups of refugee families with children are going to be less rapey than single male refugees in cities.
An odd lesson considering that the artilce doesn't give us much of an idea how many of the refugees are young men.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 19, 2016, 06:36:14 PM
An odd lesson considering that the artilce doesn't give us much of an idea how many of the refugees are young men.
It helps if you read it.
Our PM proudly announced a huge success in securing from the EU council that immigrants can no longer send their child support money out of Denmark without an applied reduction based on living standards in their home country. It'll save Denmark a whopping unknown percentage of about €12 million.
But at least we made life worse for some immigrants, so mission accomplished!
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2016, 07:07:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 19, 2016, 06:36:14 PM
An odd lesson considering that the artilce doesn't give us much of an idea how many of the refugees are young men.
It helps if you read it.
Read it again. It still does not tell me how many of them are young men. Only that there are 36 people in all and some are identified in a way that precludes them from being young men.
As a (former) young man, I find it offensive that if you are one and fleeing a war, you should be sent back, because you are most likely a rapist.
It's not like Martinus would aggressively "touch" young German girls' feet in Cologne anyways.
Quote from: Liep on February 20, 2016, 05:37:22 AM
Our PM proudly announced a huge success in securing from the EU council that immigrants can no longer send their child support money out of Denmark without an applied reduction based on living standards in their home country. It'll save Denmark a whopping unknown percentage of about €12 million.
But at least we made life worse for some immigrants, so mission accomplished!
He secured it? :unsure:
The way the news in the uk was presenting it was purely Cameron Cameron Cameron.
Have to say though, this one sounds fairy logical to me. Though that Cameron was so unwilling to budge on the eastern Europeans only wanting it to impact future arrivers was bad. That also seemed sensible.
In Clausnitz, Saxony, a group of 100 concerned citizens blocked a bus with 17 asylum seekers who were transferred into the little town. They shouted aggressively against the new arrivals to the point that the bus passengers were afraid to leave the bus. The 28 police men (originally 2, they later called reinforcements, when the path was blocked by protesters) ordered the protesters to leave which was answered with laughter. Some of the asylum seekers made rude gestures to the protesters.
Eventually, the police forced the last passengers off the bus, taking one youth into a stranglehold in the process. The police press charges against the refugees for their hostile behavior.
The head of the house where the refugees are housed was a member of the right-wing populist AfD (was, because he's been transferred today to protect his person, according to the local administration). The mayor of the town doesn't understand the outcry the whole event has caused, because this was just a peaceful protest. The head of police has defended his men's actions. They were outnumbered, so they couldn't enforce the kicking out of some people. Also, the violent dragging of the kids out of the bus was necessary and justified to ensure their getting into the safe house.
Also in Saxony, a former hotel that was supposed to be turned into home for refugees was set on fire. 20-30 bystanders cheered, some of them trying to prevent the fire department from extinguishing the flames (charges are pressed).
Some of these things seem like the type to create generations of grudges and animosity.
Quote from: Syt on February 22, 2016, 01:06:11 PM
In Clausnitz, Saxony, a group of 100 concerned citizens blocked a bus with 17 asylum seekers who were transferred into the little town. They shouted aggressively against the new arrivals to the point that the bus passengers were afraid to leave the bus. The 28 police men (originally 2, they later called reinforcements, when the path was blocked by protesters) ordered the protesters to leave which was answered with laughter. Some of the asylum seekers made rude gestures to the protesters.
Eventually, the police forced the last passengers off the bus, taking one youth into a stranglehold in the process. The police press charges against the refugees for their hostile behavior.
The head of the house where the refugees are housed was a member of the right-wing populist AfD (was, because he's been transferred today to protect his person, according to the local administration). The mayor of the town doesn't understand the outcry the whole event has caused, because this was just a peaceful protest. The head of police has defended his men's actions. They were outnumbered, so they couldn't enforce the kicking out of some people. Also, the violent dragging of the kids out of the bus was necessary and justified to ensure their getting into the safe house.
Also in Saxony, a former hotel that was supposed to be turned into home for refugees was set on fire. 20-30 bystanders cheered, some of them trying to prevent the fire department from extinguishing the flames (charges are pressed).
This sounds like the beginning of a really cheesy movie, that ends with the town facing some sort of crisis in which the refugees somehow save the day, and in the end are welcomed into the community.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 22, 2016, 01:34:23 PM
Some of these things seem like the type to create generations of grudges and animosity.
Sadly, racist violence is nothing new in eastern Germany. The far right found fertile ground there right after the unification.
German paper Welt has an interactive map about right wing violence/demonstrations since 2014:
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article139562077/Karte-der-Gewalt-und-Proteste-gegen-Fluechtlinge.html
Buttons on top from left to right: "All" - "Arson" -"Damage to property" - "Assault and Battery" - "Demonstrations"
The shades of blue shows the number of asylum seekers per inhabitant; lighter color = fewer.
Yup, it's the same in the UK. The ignorant racist parties target the overwhelmingly white British parts of the country.
An imam said something about stoning women if they are unfaithful and the immigration minister said: "I just want to remove that mosque from the face of the earth" and "that imam shouldn't be here, but sadly there are rules and we can't just throw him out".
I have always envisoned Denmark as this Socialist paradise where people forcefully move in to houses and everyone is too much of a pinko commie to evict them.
What happened?!
Quote from: Tamas on February 29, 2016, 05:05:49 AM
I have always envisoned Denmark as this Socialist paradise where people forcefully move in to houses and everyone is too much of a pinko commie to evict them.
What happened?!
The children of that paradise grew up and became spoiled brats who think that because they got a free education they're somehow better than the uneducated masses who just want to steal their money which, btw, are taxed way too much.
BBC breaking news says "Migrants break through fence on Macedonia-Greece border with home-made battering ram"
I wonder how long before somebody gets shot.
I do wonder how much of this I'll notice when I embark on my Balkan voyage in the spring.
Quote from: Tamas on February 29, 2016, 05:54:05 AM
BBC breaking news says "Migrants break through fence on Macedonia-Greece border with home-made battering ram"
I wonder how long before somebody gets shot.
You get shot at if you throw stones at Danish police, so I'd think very carefully before throwing stones at Macedonian police like that guy in the blue jacket.
Quote from: Liep on February 29, 2016, 06:01:32 AM
I do wonder how much of this I'll notice when I embark on my Balkan voyage in the spring.
When and where are you going? I'l be in Belgrade and Zagreb in early april.
Quote from: The Larch on February 29, 2016, 07:45:46 AM
Quote from: Liep on February 29, 2016, 06:01:32 AM
I do wonder how much of this I'll notice when I embark on my Balkan voyage in the spring.
When and where are you going? I'l be in Belgrade and Zagreb in early april.
I'll be in Belgrade on the 7th of april! and staying there 3-5 days from then.
Quote from: Liep on February 29, 2016, 07:49:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 29, 2016, 07:45:46 AM
Quote from: Liep on February 29, 2016, 06:01:32 AM
I do wonder how much of this I'll notice when I embark on my Balkan voyage in the spring.
When and where are you going? I'l be in Belgrade and Zagreb in early april.
I'll be in Belgrade on the 7th of april! and staying there 3-5 days from then.
Aaah, I fear that by then I will have already left. :(
Quote from: The Larch on February 29, 2016, 07:54:03 AM
Quote from: Liep on February 29, 2016, 07:49:25 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 29, 2016, 07:45:46 AM
Quote from: Liep on February 29, 2016, 06:01:32 AM
I do wonder how much of this I'll notice when I embark on my Balkan voyage in the spring.
When and where are you going? I'l be in Belgrade and Zagreb in early april.
I'll be in Belgrade on the 7th of april! and staying there 3-5 days from then.
Aaah, I fear that by then I will have already left. :(
I doubt I'll catch up with you before Zagreb as I'll be on bike. :lol:
Silly Westerners. I couldn't run far enough from the Balkans and you go there voluntarily.
Quote from: Tamas on February 29, 2016, 08:12:27 AM
Silly Westerners. I couldn't run far enough from the Balkans and you go there voluntarily.
I'll visit Hungary too! :hug:
Quote from: Tamas on February 29, 2016, 08:12:27 AM
Silly Westerners. I couldn't run far enough from the Balkans and you go there voluntarily.
It's not as if I'm moving there, it's tourism, mate. :P Cheap beer, gorgeous girls, outgoing people, what more can one ask for? :P
Quote from: Tamas on February 29, 2016, 08:12:27 AM
Silly Westerners. I couldn't run far enough from the Balkans and you go there voluntarily.
We go for the scenery, not the people :p
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on February 29, 2016, 11:01:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 29, 2016, 08:12:27 AM
Silly Westerners. I couldn't run far enough from the Balkans and you go there voluntarily.
We go for the scenery, not the people :p
I actually go there for the people. :P
I'm angling for a gig in Bulgaria myself :blush:
I might visit Hungary on business this spring, but dates are fuzzy. Probably have just one night for Budapest in any case.
I consider to do a Eastern Europe tour in summer. ;)
This is an unexpected development. :P And the silly people at CNN don't know it's called Slovakia. :rolleyes:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fw5hVtDk.jpg&hash=b06863a1291cec82f0b67230ea16cf51a96fd101)
Slovenians will not be putting anymore shrimps on the barbie :(
Please tell me that is shopped.
I guess the fence contractor was Australian :unsure:
Quote from: Tamas on February 29, 2016, 08:12:27 AM
Silly Westerners. I couldn't run far enough from the Balkans and you go there voluntarily.
Your problem.
So Turkey wants another €3bn and visa free travel in Europe. For that they give the EU something that's vaguely and complicated.
It sounds like they'll take back refugees from Greece and then the refugees can apply from Turkey to get asylum in a EU country. I don't see how that will ever work.
It is simple, we pay the Turks Danegeld, they do bugger all for it and then they demand more Danegeld.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 08, 2016, 01:54:13 AM
It is simple, we pay the Turks Danegeld, they do bugger all for it and then they demand more Danegeld.
Now I understand, that's just sound entrepreneurship. :yes:
So:
-we give a shitload of money to Turkey. Erdogan will use it to better conditions in refugee camps. Honest.
-Once Greece cleared her islands of migrants (so, only a matter of ten years or so, considering they keep arriving daily), we will ship new arrivals back to Turkey in international bundles. In return Turkey will offload as many Syrians into the EU as Syrians are in the return shipment bundle.
-Turks will get visa-free Schengen travel from June, assuming Turkey holds up their end of the bargain (which seems to be taking a lot of money and putting some level of organisation into ridding themselves of the refugee crisis)
I think the more priceless one is the last one. After June, Turkey can just threaten to give Turkish papers to all refugees and be done with the whole thing.
Could somebody explain to me how the EU could not create a giant refugee camp/shelter in Greece from that 3 billion euros?
How can they be so stupid as to agree to almost all of Turkey's demands (only thing they said no to was giving them carte blanche to carve out a part of Syria to "process" refugees), whent hose demands only increase Turkey's future leverage against them?
yay for millions more muslims in europe. Our children and grandchildren will thank us for it.
not.
Well played by Turkey, pox on the EU-invertebrate-politicians that squander away the values they're supposed to uphold and screw over they people who's interests they're supposed to protect.
Now might be a good time for you guys to visit your local mosque and recite the shahada in front of witnesses. Britain should Brexit while the going is good.
It does seem like this was setup to encourage Britain to exit the EU.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 08, 2016, 06:02:05 AM
Now might be a good time for you guys to visit your local mosque and recite the shahada in front of witnesses. Britain should Brexit while the going is good.
Since the Queen is The Defender of the Faith it's her who will have to to recite the shadada. :D
Quote from: garbon on March 08, 2016, 06:02:51 AM
It does seem like this was setup to encourage Britain to exit the EU.
Officially, Brexit people dislike Christian Eastern Europeans, so maybe not.
Don't worry. As soon as the war in Syria is over all those refugees will go back home.
Quote from: Tamas on March 08, 2016, 05:47:00 AM
...
How can they be so stupid as to agree to almost all of Turkey's demands (only thing they said no to was giving them carte blanche to carve out a part of Syria to "process" refugees), whent hose demands only increase Turkey's future leverage against them?
Cowardice, shortsightedness, greed? Take your pick. The politicians are whores bought and paid for who are doing what they're told. The EU wasn't created to benefit its peoples but those who control it - and it ain't the sovereign people...
G.
Quote from: Valmy on March 08, 2016, 10:45:30 AM
Don't worry. As soon as the war in Syria is over all those refugees will go back home.
:lol: I was told that here a few months ago.
Quote from: Tamas on March 08, 2016, 05:47:00 AM
-Turks will get visa-free Schengen travel from June, assuming Turkey holds up their end of the bargain (which seems to be taking a lot of money and putting some level of organisation into ridding themselves of the refugee crisis)
I think the more priceless one is the last one. After June, Turkey can just threaten to give Turkish papers to all refugees and be done with the whole thing.
How would that be upholding their end of the bargain? :huh:
QuoteHow can they be so stupid as to agree to almost all of Turkey's demands (only thing they said no to was giving them carte blanche to carve out a part of Syria to "process" refugees), whent hose demands only increase Turkey's future leverage against them?
No idea why Erdogan's Turkey is seen as a partner in this. They don't seem to have any similar interests as the EU and I doubt paying them money will change that.
$3 billion is hardly anything
Quote from: Tamas on March 08, 2016, 05:47:00 AM
Could somebody explain to me how the EU could not create a giant refugee camp/shelter in Greece from that 3 billion euros?
3 billion sounds like a lot of money until you realize there's almost 2 million Syrian refugees in Turkey.
The deal sounds pretty reasonable to me.
The problem with the refugees wasn't taking in refugees themselves, its the sheer difficulty of processing them all and the iffyness of having them hanging about in the meantime.
The way this sort of thing really SHOULD work is that they apply from their home country and then when they're accepted come over to Europe. That is of course not possible in their current situation so having it done from Turkey is the next best thing.
Those calls of it being against international law- :bleeding:
Assuming it all works as advertised of course. It sounds awfully complex to me. How will Turkey decide who gets to go?
I'm a bit distrusting of it working out.
Quote-Turks will get visa-free Schengen travel from June, assuming Turkey holds up their end of the bargain (which seems to be taking a lot of money and putting some level of organisation into ridding themselves of the refugee crisis)
I think the more priceless one is the last one. After June, Turkey can just threaten to give Turkish papers to all refugees and be done with the whole thing.
Free movement for Turkish citizens != free movement for people with residence in Turkey.
No way is Turkey about to give a bunch of people Turkish citizenship, no matter how confident it is that they'll all decide to go and work illegally in Europe (which they won't).
Eurojust, the EU's judicial cooperation agency, doubts that Turkey will even keep its side of the bargain:
http://www.politico.eu/article/eurojust-report-raises-doubts-about-eu-turkey-migration-deal-refugee-crisis-asylym-syria-war/
"Contrary to EU opinion, migrants leaving Turkey is a dominant idea favored by the Turkish government and people — i.e., they support smugglers getting immigrants leaving Turkey," the Eurojust report states.
Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu has been pushing EU leaders for greater concessions in return for Turkish support to stem the flow of Syrian migrants into Europe. On Monday, he demanded an extra €3 billion, visa-free travel to the EU for Turkish citizens, and accelerated talks on Turkey's EU membership.
One of Turkey's latest requests is a one-in, one-out arrangement for handling migrants: for each Syrian migrant now in the EU that Turkey takes back, Europe will resettle one Syrian now in Turkey.
But the Eurojust report is extremely critical of any deal with Ankara.
"Turkey has no specialized border or migrant forces, lacks sufficient visa legislation and has no independent judiciary," the report states, criticizing the Turkish government for not having a proper process in place for expelling migrants, who are "freed after a few days" and simply told to leave the country.
When it comes to the readmissions agreement between Greece and Turkey, "implementation is very low, and very limited."
"Needless to say there are many political aspects and reflections the EU, the Commission and the Council could use and consider for political negotiations," the report states.
Oh, and the UN says that the EU plan is against the law:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35754738
Vincent Cochetel, the UN's regional co-ordinator for the refugee crisis in Europe, said: "An agreement that would be tantamount to a blanket return of any foreigners to a third country is not consistent with European law."
Meanwhile, the UN Secretary-General praised Merkel and her open door policy and told Europe to do more to help the refugees, pretty much blaming all the problems on the "extreme right":
http://www.dw.com/en/un-chief-praises-german-moral-leadership-on-migrant-crisis/a-19102340
Ban Ki-Moon praised German Chancellor Angela Merkel's leadership on the refugee crisis while striking out against asylum restrictions in some European countries and a surge in anti-immigrant politics.
Calling Merkel a "true moral voice," Ban said in Berlin on Tuesday that the Chancellor has shown compassion and leadership in pursuing policies that, while not always easy, were just.
While Merkel tried to put "the protection of every individual person" in focus, other politicians have "chosen the easy path," the UN chief said.
"Extreme right-wing and nationalistic political parties are inflaming the situation where we need to be seeking solutions, harmonious solutions based on shared responsibilities," he cautioned.
He said Europe could do much more to help refugees, and not only with money.
Wonder if he'd say the same thing if the migrants were arriving in his native South Korea? :hmm:
In the meanwhile, in the wonderful paradise of diversity that Germany is, Die Welt reports that the sex attacks by migrants on girls in the public swimming pool of Norderstedt have become so severe that the pool has been forced to segregate bathing times between male-only and female-only.
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article152914908/Maenner-und-Frauen-nur-noch-getrennt-auf-die-Rutsche.html
That means that a German father and his older son will not be able to enjoy the pool at the same time that their wives/sisters.
Now, which culture is adapting to the other, really? :hmm:
But fear not. The German Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, just announced that the nation's budget surplus will be spent in its entirety on the migrants.
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article152972939/Schaeubles-Ueberschuss-Milliarden-sind-fuer-Fluechtlinge-reserviert.html
Aren't you feeling the amazing economic benefits that bringing in millions of Middle Easterners bring?
We should probably throw our hands in the error because a community swimming pool cannot get its shit sorted.
Canada accepts its first Syrian refugees - and already commits an attrocity far exceeding any committed by Assad:
http://boingboing.net/2016/03/10/syrian-refugees-placed-in-hote.html
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2016, 10:56:47 AM
Canada accepts its first Syrian refugees - and already commits an attrocity far exceeding any committed by Assad:
http://boingboing.net/2016/03/10/syrian-refugees-placed-in-hote.html
Holy shit :lol:
Welcome to the West guys :P
Can't wait for these kids to realise, in 5-10 years, who these people were - and join ISIS. :P
Quote from: Martinus on March 11, 2016, 11:04:39 AM
Can't wait for these kids to realise, in 5-10 years, who these people were - and join ISIS. :P
:lol:
Fact is, kids love furries. We had a similar situation - my parents support some charity group or other, they helped host a picknick to raise money, and the entertainment for the kids was a bunch of furries parading about (who donated their time for free). The kids loved it. Almost none of the adults knew what a "furry" was, or that there was a kink involved, so it was all cool.
Apparently, after the picknick, the furries were all going back to a hotel together for some private furry time, but the picknickers didn't have to be aware of that. ;) I only knew because my gossipy mom makes it her business to know, and she's very savvy.
I wish I could see the faces of the parents of those kids when they found out who these people were. :lol:
Quote from: Tyr on March 11, 2016, 12:19:25 PM
I wish I could see the faces of the parents of those kids when they found out who these people were. :lol:
And the panic when they realized little joey wasn't around and he was last spotted hanging out on the edge of the party with the chipmunk character.
Heh. Just because furries have a peculiar kink (or at least, some of 'em), doesn't mean that they are more likely to be pedos. :P
I love the hashtags for the story being #furries #syria and #wonderfulthings. This must be a first. :D
Germany will see a political earthquake tomorrow due to this. There are election in three of the sixteen states (Baden-Württemberg, Sachsen-Anhalt, Rhineland-Palatinate) and the right-wing, anti-immigration AfD is expected to win 10-20% in each of the states. The conservative and social-democrat parties, that have dominated Germany's postwar politics are expected to get less than 50% in Baden-Württemberg, mainly because the extremely popular Green governor of that state will likely lead his party to never before seen 30%+ of the vote. Most likely, none of the existing government coalitions will be able to continue after this election.
Quote from: Zanza on March 12, 2016, 04:12:01 PM
Germany will see a political earthquake tomorrow due to this. There are election in three of the sixteen states (Baden-Württemberg, Sachsen-Anhalt, Rhineland-Palatinate) and the right-wing, anti-immigration AfD is expected to win 10-20% in each of the states. The conservative and social-democrat parties, that have dominated Germany's postwar politics are expected to get less than 50% in Baden-Württemberg, mainly because the extremely popular Green governor of that state will likely lead his party to never before seen 30%+ of the vote. Most likely, none of the existing government coalitions will be able to continue after this election.
AFD currently at 23% in Sachsen-Anhalt. That is simply frightening.
I wonder if it is even possible to form a stable government in Sachsen-Anhalt. The Left Party and AfD together have like 40%+, which is almost like the end days of Weimar...
Quote from: Zanza on March 13, 2016, 12:52:32 PM
I wonder if it is even possible to form a stable government in Sachsen-Anhalt. The Left Party and AfD together have like 40%+, which is almost like the end days of Weimar...
Sounds like stable government is very likely then.
Quote from: The Brain on March 13, 2016, 01:12:22 PM
Quote from: Zanza on March 13, 2016, 12:52:32 PM
I wonder if it is even possible to form a stable government in Sachsen-Anhalt. The Left Party and AfD together have like 40%+, which is almost like the end days of Weimar...
Sounds like stable government is very likely then.
:lol:
Okay, so what is so terrifying about the AfD, other than them not liking Merkel's immigration policy?
Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2016, 09:05:57 PM
Okay, so what is so terrifying about the AfD, other than them not liking Merkel's immigration policy?
You know what AfD actually stands for right?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flyingtigerantiques.com%2Fmm5%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2Fsadaggerhahnopen.jpg&hash=6048b24de1dc17caceb2577bca8a4416a09dd0c8)
:P
They just German FN and UKIP basically. It is only scary as it is the herald of the collapse of the the confederation and the re-emergence of national European rivalry more than their actual platform.
"Make Germany Great Again"?
Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2016, 09:05:57 PM
Okay, so what is so terrifying about the AfD, other than them not liking Merkel's immigration policy?
Their official program is reactionary (maybe CDU around 1970), but it's the tone that makes the music. Some of their top members are just nasty.
Go shitlords. Trigger everyone.
Quote from: Zanza on March 14, 2016, 04:24:08 AM
Their official program is reactionary (maybe CDU around 1970), but it's the tone that makes the music. Some of their top members are just nasty.
I've seen pictures and some of them do look nasty :P but I guess the nasty tone doesn't resonate out this far or is lost in translation. If it were the NDP surging I'd totally get it.
Quote from: derspiess on March 14, 2016, 08:39:56 AM
I've seen pictures and some of them do look nasty :P but I guess the nasty tone doesn't resonate out this far or is lost in translation. If it were the NDP surging I'd totally get it.
The AFD has become very attractive to parts of the NPDs clientele. Several NPD members have even accused the AFD of being a plot by the "system" to draw away their voters. :D
But what's worrying about the AFD is the fact, that violent radicals feel encouraged and vindicated by the party's growing support, which leads to more threats and attacks against foreigners, politicians and journalists.
And of course, as Zanza has stated, they have some real hatemongers at the top, like von Storch, who wants borderguards to shoot women and children, should they try to cross the border.
Quote from: Malicious Intent on March 14, 2016, 12:06:29 PM
And of course, as Zanza has stated, they have some real hatemongers at the top, like von Storch, who wants borderguards to shoot women and children, should they try to cross the border.
Maybe some of those old East German border guards are around to help install this new system.
Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2016, 12:12:06 PM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on March 14, 2016, 12:06:29 PM
And of course, as Zanza has stated, they have some real hatemongers at the top, like von Storch, who wants borderguards to shoot women and children, should they try to cross the border.
Maybe some of those old East German border guards are around to help install this new system.
Just need to turn everything around facing the other way.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4NcbRyA.jpg&hash=e540034fc3d1fb9702e46893cfa16e23cc2642ef)
Suckers.
What's the point of showing the countries in the insert if using a completely different population comparison? Are they saying those ratios make it in line with what they are showing for Europe? :unsure:
Damn Italy. How did you even...?
I guess it means that 3.2% of all Syrian refugees in Western countries are in Canada and that means there are 47-102 refugees/100.000 Canadians.
Why would it be a different population comparison than in Europe?
The percentage figure shows the total distribution among all countries and the density figure shows how that relates to the population in the country.
It is kind of amazing that we are trusting the Serbians to watch over Muslims.
I don't think 'trusting' is the right word.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 15, 2016, 03:20:38 PM
I don't think 'trusting' is the right word.
'Forcing'?
Either way...
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2016, 02:36:44 PM
It is kind of amazing that we are trusting the Serbians to watch over Muslims.
I thought Muslims (capital M) was a nationality in Yugo times, different from the practitioners of Islam (muslims). :nerd:
The refugees passing a river to bypass the Macedonian border control, not passing the press unnoticed though
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdm6aDnXEAEY9iM.jpg)
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 15, 2016, 03:42:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2016, 02:36:44 PM
It is kind of amazing that we are trusting the Serbians to watch over Muslims.
I thought Muslims (capital M) was a nationality in Yugo times, different from the practitioners of Islam (muslims). :nerd:
In Yugoslav times, Muslims = Bosniaks.
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2016, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 15, 2016, 03:42:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2016, 02:36:44 PM
It is kind of amazing that we are trusting the Serbians to watch over Muslims.
I thought Muslims (capital M) was a nationality in Yugo times, different from the practitioners of Islam (muslims). :nerd:
In Yugoslav times, Muslims = Bosniaks.
Albanians? :unsure:
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2016, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2016, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 15, 2016, 03:42:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2016, 02:36:44 PM
It is kind of amazing that we are trusting the Serbians to watch over Muslims.
I thought Muslims (capital M) was a nationality in Yugo times, different from the practitioners of Islam (muslims). :nerd:
In Yugoslav times, Muslims = Bosniaks.
Albanians? :unsure:
They had their own category in the census.
Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2016, 02:10:22 PM
What's the point of showing the countries in the insert if using a completely different population comparison? Are they saying those ratios make it in line with what they are showing for Europe? :unsure:
What do you mean? They're using the same colour scheme (refugees per 100,000 population) and percentage scheme (percentage of refugee population). The only scale that is different is the actual geographical scale.
Right? :unsure:
I thought Bosniaks were Serbo-Croats who had gone Muslim, ethnically different from Albanians.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 15, 2016, 04:33:12 PM
I thought Bosniaks were Serbo-Croats who had gone Muslim, ethnically different from Albanians.
You thought right.
I am a right thinker.
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2016, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 15, 2016, 03:42:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2016, 02:36:44 PM
It is kind of amazing that we are trusting the Serbians to watch over Muslims.
I thought Muslims (capital M) was a nationality in Yugo times, different from the practitioners of Islam (muslims). :nerd:
In Yugoslav times, Muslims = Bosniaks.
More complex than that.
Bosniaks were Muslims but there were other islamised Slavs, in the Sanjak, who were not Bosniaks.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 15, 2016, 04:47:30 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2016, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 15, 2016, 03:42:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2016, 02:36:44 PM
It is kind of amazing that we are trusting the Serbians to watch over Muslims.
I thought Muslims (capital M) was a nationality in Yugo times, different from the practitioners of Islam (muslims). :nerd:
In Yugoslav times, Muslims = Bosniaks.
More complex than that.
Bosniaks were Muslims but there were other islamised Slavs, in the Sanjak, who were not Bosniaks.
I was talking about "capital M) Muslims, as you yourself said. :P There were other muslim slavic minorities around.
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2016, 05:06:30 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 15, 2016, 04:47:30 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 15, 2016, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on March 15, 2016, 03:42:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2016, 02:36:44 PM
It is kind of amazing that we are trusting the Serbians to watch over Muslims.
I thought Muslims (capital M) was a nationality in Yugo times, different from the practitioners of Islam (muslims). :nerd:
In Yugoslav times, Muslims = Bosniaks.
More complex than that.
Bosniaks were Muslims but there were other islamised Slavs, in the Sanjak, who were not Bosniaks.
I was talking about "capital M) Muslims, as you yourself said. :P There were other muslim slavic minorities around.
Those islamised Slavs are "capital M Muslims too! :contract:
Of course, the Muslim "nationality" was created to avoid the creation and recognition of a Bosniak "nationality".
So apparently there are tolerant, peace loving Muslim groups in the West. Too bad they are being murdered by other Muslims.
QuoteScottish Muslim groups fail to attend Ahmadi anti-extremism event
Sikh, Jewish and Christian representatives attend campaign launch following death of Glasgow shopkeeper Asad Shah
Ahmadi Muslims in Scotland have launched an anti-extremism campaign following the death of the Glasgow shopkeeper Asad Shah, despite the failure of other prominent Muslims to attend the event.
Representatives of the Glasgow Central Mosque and the Muslim Council of Scotland were invited to attend the launch alongside other faith groups, but the Guardian understands that both sent their apologies at the last minute.
Shah, who lived in the multicultural Shawlands area of Glasgow, was fatally stabbed outside his newsagents on 24 March.
Shah was an Ahmadi, a member of a minority sect of Islam that faces persecution and violence in countries such as Pakistan and is treated with open hostility by many orthodox Muslims in the UK because it differs from their belief that Muhammad is the final prophet sent to guide humankind.
The man charged with Shah's murder is also a Muslim, and recently released a statement through his lawyer saying the killing was justified because Shah had "disrespected" Islam.
As part of the United Against Extremism campaign, posters sponsored by the Ahmadi community will be displayed on buses in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee for two weeks.
The event's organiser Ahmed Owusu-Konadu said: "We are undertaking this campaign as part of our stand on the rejection of all forms of extremism and as a message of solidarity with all who have been its victims, including Asad Shah, and others in Paris, Turkey, Brussels, Pakistan, Nigeria."
Abdul Abid, president of the Ahmadiyya community in Scotland, admitted he was disappointed that other Muslim leaders had not attended the launch. Representatives of Glasgow's Sikh and Jewish communities and the Church of Scotland's inter-faith group were all present, alongside local politicians, representatives of Police Scotland and Glasgow's lord provost.
The Guardian has reported on how Ahmadis across the UK face shunning and discrimination by Muslims of Shia and Sunni faiths.
Abid said: "We are not asking them to stand united in faith with us but to stand united against extremism. If Glasgow Central Mosque is against extremism, they should be here today."
Independent of the murder investigastion, Police Scotland are investigating alleged links between the head of religious events at Glasgow Central Mosque and a banned sectarian group in Pakistan. A recent BBC investigation claimed that Sabir Ali was president of Sipah-e-Sahaba, a militant political party that has accepted responsibility for deadly sectarian attacks against Shia Muslims and Ahmadiyya minorities in Pakistan, and was banned by the Home Office in 2001.
Following Shah's death, Aamer Anwar, one of Scotland's most outspoken Muslim reformers, helped to broker a unique event where representatives of Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi and Pakistani Christian communities shared a platform for the first time, and vowed to stand shoulder to shoulder against extremism.
At the time, Anwar said: "A very small minority of the community may think it's OK to meddle in the cesspit of violent extremist politics in Pakistan, but we are united in saying that we do not want to import sectarian violence that has caused so much division and so much bloodshed to our community or to our streets."
He has since received death threats himself, which are under investigation by the police.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/18/scottish-muslim-groups-ahmadi-anti-extremism-campaign-launch-glasgow
Had he disrespected Islam or not?
The numbers are just getting higher and higher, for both those who manage to arrise and those who don't make it.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/04/20/500-feared-dead-mediterranean-shipwreck/83274644/
Quote
U.N.: Up to 500 feared dead in Mediterranean shipwreck last week
Up to 500 migrants may have drowned when a large boat sank in the Mediterranean Sea, according to the United Nation's refugee agency, citing witness reports. If confirmed, it would be one of the worst tragedies of Europe's migrant crisis in the past year.
The incident occurred last week as smugglers tried to move a group of migrants traveling in a boat from the Libyan city of Tobruk to a larger boat crowded with hundreds of people on its way to Italy, according to the U.N. The larger boat capsized at an unknown location between Libya and Italy, according to a statement by the refugee agency.
The 41 survivors — 37 men, three women and a 3-year-old — were rescued by a merchant ship and taken to Kalamata, Greece on April 16. Those rescued include 23 Somalis, 11 Ethiopians, six Egyptians and a Sudanese, the U.N. said.
The survivors told agency staff they were part of a group of 100 to 200 people who left on a 90-foot boat from a place near Tobruk.
The survivors include people who had not yet boarded the larger vessel, as well as some who managed to swim back to the smaller boat. They drifted at sea possibly for three days before being spotted and rescued.
The refugee agency visited the survivors at a stadium in Kalamata, where they have been housed by local authorities "while they undergo police procedures," according to the U.N. report.
Barbara Molinario, a Rome-based spokeswoman for the U.N.'s refugee agency, told the Associated Press that details remained unclear, and staffers didn't want to press the survivors too hard "as they are still very tried by their experience."
The statements offered the most official comment yet following repeated news reports about the incident in recent days.
Somalia's president, prime minister and speaker of parliament issued a condolence statement to the nation April 16, after unconfirmed report circulated among families and on social media that some 400 Somalis had drowned at sea, the AP reported.
"It's a painful tragedy which reminds us all how important it is for us to discourage our youth from embarking on such high risk journeys," the leaders' statement said.
So far this year, 179,552 migrants arrived in Europe via the Mediterranean from North Africa and Turkey, a number that dwarfs the 23,425 migrants who arrived during the same period in 2015, according to the U.N.'s refugee agency.
More than 1 million migrants traveled to Europe by sea last year. Most were refugees from war in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria fleeing to Greece, and the European Union, via Turkey. However, the longer Libya-Italy route has traditionally seen more deaths.
Facing internal divisions, the EU has struggled to cope with the influx, and the refugee agency on Wednesday reiterated its longstanding call for more "regular pathways" to Europe such as with resettlement and humanitarian admission programs, family reunification, private sponsorship and student and work visas.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 24, 2016, 10:43:15 PM
The numbers are just getting higher and higher, for both those who manage to arrise and those who don't make it.
If they don't arise today, there's always tomorrow. :yawn:
The AfD, the party that has benefitted massively from the refugee crisis in Germany and has been mentioned in this thread a lot, has given itself its first ever official program. I read some articles about the AfD program (but not the program itself) and here are some points that are in the program according to Zeit, Süddeutsche, FAZ and Spiegel:
- Leave the European Union and reestablish some kind of EEC (the predecessor of the EU until 1992)
- Leave the Euro
- Block Turkey from ever becoming a member
- No CETA or TTIP
- Tell other countries to withdraw all foreign troops especially nuclear weapons from German territory
- Make NATO more defensive, less interventionist
- Conscription for males should be reintroduced
- Islam has no place in Germany and that includes minarets and veils in public
- Islamic organisations should not be able to get the same public law status (unlike Christian and Jewish religious organisations)
- Jewish and Muslim traditional slaughter of animals should be prohibited
- Asylum claims should be handled in the "regions of origin" of refugees (i.e. in camps in North Africa or the Middle East)
- Deportations should be easier
- Qualified foreigners with high willingness to integrate are still welcome (e.g. East Asian Christians), the Canadian model is cited as example
- EU foreigners from poor countries are not welcome as they "only want to benefit from our social system"
- Germany should build fences and border posts along its borders
- Conscripts should be used to guard borders
- A special law against assault against police officers should be created
- More police, harsher punishment, lower age limits for criminal prosecution (12 instead of 14 years old)
- Term limits for members of parliaments (4 terms) unless they are directly elected in their constiuency by first-past-the-post
- Federal president should be elected by the people
- Referenda similar to Switzerland should be introduced on the federal level
- Smaller parliament, less party financing through federal budget
- More children instead of immigration
- Traditional family of father, mother and children is favored and families with many children shall get special state support
- Against equality policies and women's quotas
- Public broadcasting system should be abolished
- German banks' shared liability shall be limited to national banks (I think this is against a European Union banking union)
- Pro nuclear energy and fracking
- Denies climate change and is against subsidies for renewables
- Taxes shall be reformed, families should pay less. No more estate tax
- State spending shall be limited constitutionally to protect the citizens from the state
What are the chief EU countries where "poor immigrants" come to Germany from?
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
What are the chief EU countries where "poor immigrants" come to Germany from?
Yours
Quote from: Tyr on May 01, 2016, 03:17:19 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
What are the chief EU countries where "poor immigrants" come to Germany from?
Yours
I don't think so. Most Poles would rather die than move to Germany. That's why Polish immigrants chose Britain, or Ireland instead.
Germany still has estate tax? Kind of sounds like deadism.
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2016, 03:19:50 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 01, 2016, 03:17:19 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
What are the chief EU countries where "poor immigrants" come to Germany from?
Yours
I don't think so. Most Poles would rather die than move to Germany. That's why Polish immigrants chose Britain, or Ireland instead.
I checked the numbers last weekend. Something like 2 million poles in Germany (vs 646000 in the uk). Germany is their most popular foreign country go work in. Which makes sense really.
Quote from: Tyr on May 01, 2016, 03:42:13 PM
I checked the numbers last weekend. Something like 2 million poles in Germany (vs 646000 in the uk). Germany is their most popular foreign country go work in. Which makes sense really.
Sure, but everyone else would rather die. :D
How are they going to make more German children? :hmm:
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Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
What are the chief EU countries where "poor immigrants" come to Germany from?
In the eyes of the AfD probably all of them except perhaps Austria. It's not really about poor and rich but about foreign and German.
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
What are the chief EU countries where "poor immigrants" come to Germany from?
Saw a statistic in my local newspaper a few days ago, but sadly I no longer have it at hand to give the exact numbers.
According to it, Poles are by far the most numerous EU foreigners in Germany who receive social benefits, followed by Italians, Romanians and Bulgarians.
Sadly Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians also featured prominently in several recent cases of organised criminal abuse of the social system.
Quote from: Zanza on May 01, 2016, 03:57:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
What are the chief EU countries where "poor immigrants" come to Germany from?
In the eyes of the AfD probably all of them except perhaps Austria. It's not really about poor and rich but about foreign and German.
I think the AfD may have painted themselves into a corner. The list you gave will put off many fundamentally moderate people who nevertheless have valid criticisms of the current government.
Quote from: Zanza on May 01, 2016, 02:54:03 PM
- Islam has no place in Germany and that includes minarets and veils in public
What kind of veils are we talking about? Full-face veils à la burqa or niqab? That's what I read first when I saw mention of this program.
Just as I thought, nothing extreme in this case, already in place in some countries, including muslims ones. Not to mention security concerns in times of islamist terrorism.
https://www.alternativefuer.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2016/03/Leitantrag-Grundsatzprogramm-AfD.pdfQuoteDie AfD fordert ein allgemeines Verbot der Vollverschleierung durch Burka und Niqab in der
2 Öffentlichkeit und im öffentlichen Dienst.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 02, 2016, 02:25:19 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 01, 2016, 03:57:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
What are the chief EU countries where "poor immigrants" come to Germany from?
In the eyes of the AfD probably all of them except perhaps Austria. It's not really about poor and rich but about foreign and German.
I think the AfD may have painted themselves into a corner. The list you gave will put off many fundamentally moderate people who nevertheless have valid criticisms of the current government.
I would be curious to hear their stance on the remilitarisation of the Rhineland. :P
But seriously, their list is a bit of a mixed bag:
Leave the European Union and reestablish some kind of EEC (the predecessor of the EU until 1992) - silly but unclear what that means exactly
- Leave the Euro - probably would help Eurozone, especially the South
- Block Turkey from ever becoming a member - agreed
- No CETA or TTIP - mostly agreed
- Tell other countries to withdraw all foreign troops especially nuclear weapons from German territory - silly but good for Poland - we want German NATO bases to relocate here
- Make NATO more defensive, less interventionist - probably good
- Conscription for males should be reintroduced - there are pros and cons
- Islam has no place in Germany and that includes minarets and veils in public - depende what exactly it means
- Islamic organisations should not be able to get the same public law status (unlike Christian and Jewish religious organisations) - again depends what it means
- Jewish and Muslim traditional slaughter of animals should be prohibited - agreed
- Asylum claims should be handled in the "regions of origin" of refugees (i.e. in camps in North Africa or the Middle East) - broadly agreed
- Deportations should be easier - broadly agreed
- Qualified foreigners with high willingness to integrate are still welcome (e.g. East Asian Christians), the Canadian model is cited as example - fine
- EU foreigners from poor countries are not welcome as they "only want to benefit from our social system" - depends what it means
- Germany should build fences and border posts along its borders - depends if we keep Schengen or not
- Conscripts should be used to guard borders - ok
- A special law against assault against police officers should be created - most countries have those so why not
- More police, harsher punishment, lower age limits for criminal prosecution (12 instead of 14 years old) - dont know enough about how lenient the law is now to comment
- Term limits for members of parliaments (4 terms) unless they are directly elected in their constiuency by first-past-the-post - there are pros and cons
- Federal president should be elected by the people - good idea
- Referenda similar to Switzerland should be introduced on the federal level - not a big fan of direct democracy in general but nothing inherently fascist about it
- Smaller parliament, less party financing through federal budget - probably ok
- More children instead of immigration - aha :unsure:
- Traditional family of father, mother and children is favored and families with many children shall get special state support - probably a good overall idea, depends on what it means in practice
- Against equality policies and women's quotas - gender quotas are silly, the rest depends on context
- Public broadcasting system should be abolished - need to know more to understand the context
- German banks' shared liability shall be limited to national banks (I think this is against a European Union banking union) - define "German bank"
- Pro nuclear energy and fracking - good
- Denies climate change and is against subsidies for renewables - not good
- Taxes shall be reformed, families should pay less. No more estate tax - silly about estate tax
- State spending shall be limited constitutionally to protect the citizens from the state - depends on the context
Sorry, originally misread the part about German banks. Yeah, limiting the guarantee system to national banks is stupid.
Quote from: Martinus on May 02, 2016, 06:11:45 AM
But seriously, their list is a bit of a mixed bag:
In an ironic development, the party elites have succeeded in getting more moderate proposals passed than what at least a sizeable minority of the grassroots members would have liked.
QuoteLeave the European Union and reestablish some kind of EEC (the predecessor of the EU until 1992) - silly but unclear what that means exactly
It means the Treaties since Maastricht should be rolled back, i.e. no more political union. I guess it is comparable to the UKIP position.
Quote- Leave the Euro - probably would help Eurozone, especially the South
That was actually badly worded by me. They want to abolish the Euro, not just Germany to leave. Not that the Euro without Germany makes any sense.
Quote- Islam has no place in Germany and that includes minarets and veils in public - depende what exactly it means
It means they don't consider Islam a religion that falls under the freedom of religion our constitution guarantees, but rather an anti-constitutional ideology that should not be protected under religious freedom, but rather fought actively by the state similar to Nazism or Communism.
Quote- Islamic organisations should not be able to get the same public law status (unlike Christian and Jewish religious organisations) - again depends what it means
Several (about 20?) Christian churches and the Jewish Central Council are organised under public law in Germany, which means that the revenue service levies church taxes for them, they are tax-exempt and have various other statutory or constitutional rights.
Quote- EU foreigners from poor countries are not welcome as they "only want to benefit from our social system" - depends what it means
It's not really clear in their program either. They want to reform the EU to deny EU foreigners access to the social system unless they have worked here for four years. That's already planned by the government though. They also consider to limit freedom of movement from other EU countries if the solution is not satisfactory.
Quote- Germany should build fences and border posts along its borders - depends if we keep Schengen or not
Schengen seems to be one of the treaties they want to abolish as part of them abolishing the EU and going back to the EEC. At least they mention it very negatively. As far as border protection goes, they want to either make the EU borders inpenetrable or if that does not work out, they want to reintroduce border checks along the German border.
Quote- More police, harsher punishment, lower age limits for criminal prosecution (12 instead of 14 years old) - dont know enough about how lenient the law is now to comment
Right now, youth can be tried starting at age 14 and they get considerably lower punishments than adults and the focus there is even more on rehabilitation and trying to make functioning adults out of them. Adolescents between 18 and 21 can be tried either under youth or adult law, depending on criteria I don't know.
Quote- Traditional family of father, mother and children is favored and families with many children shall get special state support - probably a good overall idea, depends on what it means in practice
The program is vague there. They seem to envision some kind of utopia where parents don't split up, have more time for their children and all financial needs are paid for by the state.
Quote- Public broadcasting system should be abolished - need to know more to understand the context
Germany has a public broadcasting system (similar to the BBC?) that provides multi-channel television, radio and internet sites with news, documentaries, sports, movies etc. It's paid for by a kind of tax that every household has to pay (about 18 Euro per month).
Quote- German banks' shared liability shall be limited to national banks (I think this is against a European Union banking union) - define "German bank"
Limiting deposit insurance etc. to national banks is a consequence of their opposition to the Euro.
Quote- State spending shall be limited constitutionally to protect the citizens from the state - depends on the context
They have a libertarian streak similar to those anti-tax activists in America and basically want to reduce the government in size by limiting its revenue.
Ok, thanks. I disagree with a lot of these ideas but they are not beyond the pale.
The opinions that are beyond the pale are only voiced, but not written into the program. You can't write your opinions that are beyond the pale into a party program in Germany or else your party will be declared unconstitional.
It is unclear how much support the more extreme members (Storch, Höcke, Poggenburg, more and more Gauland) have compared to the more moderate members (Meuthen and in a crazy development even Petry must be counted among them these days).
Quote from: Zanza on May 02, 2016, 12:43:49 PM
They have a libertarian streak similar to those anti-tax activists in America and basically want to reduce the government in size by limiting its revenue.
That seems to contradict their other plans, which strike me as expensive social engineering.
They are just as consequential about it as the GOP. :P
So, leftist media in Europe are reporting on a brave woman who single-handed stopped a march of neonazis in Sweden, as depicted in this photo:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/woman-sweden-tess-asplund-who-defied-neo-nazis-in-viral-photo-says-group-should-never-have-been-a7012421.html
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Never been a big fan of neonazis (although I think they have a right to march like any other group, provided they are not breaking the law), but I wonder how a similarly brave female activist would have fared if she tried to block a march of 300 islamists in Ankara or even Mollenbeck. Would the marchers patiently wait for the police to arrive and remove her, too?
Guy in front looks like Walter White. :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 06:50:05 AM
So, leftist media in Europe are reporting on a brave woman who single-handed stopped a march of neonazis in Sweden, as depicted in this photo:
Never been a big fan of neonazis (although I think they have a right to march like any other group, provided they are not breaking the law), but I wonder how a similarly brave female activist would have fared if she tried to block a march of 300 islamists in Ankara or even Mollenbeck. Would the marchers patiently wait for the police to arrive and remove her, too?
Only one way to find out. You should put on your gayest outfit and try with the next Islamist march! 😊
Quote from: Zanza on May 04, 2016, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 06:50:05 AM
So, leftist media in Europe are reporting on a brave woman who single-handed stopped a march of neonazis in Sweden, as depicted in this photo:
Never been a big fan of neonazis (although I think they have a right to march like any other group, provided they are not breaking the law), but I wonder how a similarly brave female activist would have fared if she tried to block a march of 300 islamists in Ankara or even Mollenbeck. Would the marchers patiently wait for the police to arrive and remove her, too?
Only one way to find out. You should put on your gayest outfit and try with the next Islamist march! 😊
Not planning too. But neither gonna gush over that woman being a hero. If anything, the neonazis have behaved pretty well here.
Remember that time Mono stood in front of a tank? You should do it. :cool:
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 01:39:03 PM
Quote from: Zanza on May 04, 2016, 11:31:26 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 06:50:05 AM
So, leftist media in Europe are reporting on a brave woman who single-handed stopped a march of neonazis in Sweden, as depicted in this photo:
Never been a big fan of neonazis (although I think they have a right to march like any other group, provided they are not breaking the law), but I wonder how a similarly brave female activist would have fared if she tried to block a march of 300 islamists in Ankara or even Mollenbeck. Would the marchers patiently wait for the police to arrive and remove her, too?
Only one way to find out. You should put on your gayest outfit and try with the next Islamist march! 😊
Not planning too. But neither gonna gush over that woman being a hero. If anything, the neonazis have behaved pretty well here.
So lets get this straight. A woman does a very brave thing but it doesn't rate because these are actually good guy neo nazis?
What she did was not very brave. She apparently was at no risk.
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 04:09:13 PM
What she did was not very brave. She apparently was at no risk.
Hindsight: perception of the nature of an event after it has happened
Why didn't they just walk around her?
Too disciplined.
Martinus brings up a good point. How often do people like her try to oppose Islamists in the same way? Opposing neo-nazis is safe and easy.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 04, 2016, 10:46:57 PM
Martinus brings up a good point. How often do people like her try to oppose Islamists in the same way? Opposing neo-nazis is safe and easy.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23241937
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2016, 10:52:12 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 04, 2016, 10:46:57 PM
Martinus brings up a good point. How often do people like her try to oppose Islamists in the same way? Opposing neo-nazis is safe and easy.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23241937
You realise you are making our point, right? Malala was shot in the face for doing to Islamists the equivalent of what that "brave woman" did to neonazis.
Edit: Correction. Malala was not actually doing anything to prevent others from exercising their fundamental civil rights. That woman did.
I wouldn't say that opposing neo-nazis is "safe and easy", but they do seem able to control themselves when cameras and police are around.
In any case, I don't see anything commendable in trying to prevent others from exercising their constitutional freedoms of expression or assembly. Debate them or have your own march on another day to demonstrate your numbers. What she is doing is essentially violence, and starts a slippery slope towards a society where anyone can use physical force to stop others from doing legal things you disagree with.
The left and the extreme right consider the rule of law to be oppression. Are you saying they're wrong?
apparently she's making the Black Panther sign/greet thingy. Can anyone confirm?
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 05, 2016, 03:30:44 AM
apparently she's making the Black Panther sign/greet thingy. Can anyone confirm?
Ignorant folk be ignorant but then that's par for the course with you. :(
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 01:06:39 AM
The left and the extreme right consider the rule of law to be oppression. Are you saying they're wrong?
Yes. -_-
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 12:04:51 AM
In any case, I don't see anything commendable in trying to prevent others from exercising their constitutional freedoms of expression or assembly. Debate them or have your own march on another day to demonstrate your numbers. What she is doing is essentially violence, and starts a slippery slope towards a society where anyone can use physical force to stop others from doing legal things you disagree with.
What physical force is she using. She is standing in the middle of a road.
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 04:09:13 PM
What she did was not very brave. She apparently was at no risk.
Except for the uptick of Neo-Nazi attacks you are correct.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 05, 2016, 08:25:01 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 04:09:13 PM
What she did was not very brave. She apparently was at no risk.
Except for the uptick of Neo-Nazi attacks you are correct.
Got any stats on that?
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 09:40:50 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 05, 2016, 08:25:01 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 04:09:13 PM
What she did was not very brave. She apparently was at no risk.
Except for the uptick of Neo-Nazi attacks you are correct.
Got any stats on that?
Nope, just news stories.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/616306/Neo-Nazis-Germany-asylum-seekers-migrants
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/merkel-condemns-rash-of-neo-nazi-attacks/2015/08/26/8b485a28-bf16-4391-8214-597ec626d815_story.html
https://revolution-news.com/nazis-attacked-social-center-klinika-and-demo-against-fortress-europe-in-prague/
http://www.timesofisrael.com/suspected-neo-nazi-gangs-attack-migrants-in-sweden/
The only story about neonazi attacks in Sweden in 2016 I could find was the story about the "neonazi rampage" in January 2016, which apparently was determined in March 2016 to be a media misreporting hoax:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3477510/Migrant-attacks-conspiracy-hide-truth-Europe-s-liberal-country-Sweden-stopped-citizens-discussing-refugee-influx.html
Quote from: Gups on May 05, 2016, 07:27:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 12:04:51 AM
In any case, I don't see anything commendable in trying to prevent others from exercising their constitutional freedoms of expression or assembly. Debate them or have your own march on another day to demonstrate your numbers. What she is doing is essentially violence, and starts a slippery slope towards a society where anyone can use physical force to stop others from doing legal things you disagree with.
What physical force is she using. She is standing in the middle of a road.
Reminds me of Mono's stance in the Hong Kong student protests thread a while ago.
Quote from: Martinus on May 04, 2016, 11:57:58 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2016, 10:52:12 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 04, 2016, 10:46:57 PM
Martinus brings up a good point. How often do people like her try to oppose Islamists in the same way? Opposing neo-nazis is safe and easy.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23241937
You realise you are making our point, right? Malala was shot in the face for doing to Islamists the equivalent of what that "brave woman" did to neonazis.
Edit: Correction. Malala was not actually doing anything to prevent others from exercising their fundamental civil rights. That woman did.
In your world, is protesting against neo nazis a bad thing?
Quote from: Zanza on May 05, 2016, 10:06:32 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 05, 2016, 07:27:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 12:04:51 AM
In any case, I don't see anything commendable in trying to prevent others from exercising their constitutional freedoms of expression or assembly. Debate them or have your own march on another day to demonstrate your numbers. What she is doing is essentially violence, and starts a slippery slope towards a society where anyone can use physical force to stop others from doing legal things you disagree with.
What physical force is she using. She is standing in the middle of a road.
Reminds me of Mono's stance in the Hong Kong student protests thread a while ago.
Apples and oranges. Hong Kong student protesters were protesting the government whilst, presumably, living under a system that denies them the civil right of assembly. Here that woman is protesting another legal protest by fellow citizens.
Incidentally, I am unclear about the details of why she had to be removed by the police - as others said, could not the marchers simply pass her by? But if for some reason the fact that she was standing there physically impeded the ability of the marchers to continue with their legal march, then there is nothing really one should commend her for.
I don't think "Neo-Nazi" is a necessary term these days. Very few original Nazis are left and they are generally too old for action.
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 09:58:40 AM
The only story about neonazi attacks in Sweden in 2016 I could find was the story about the "neonazi rampage" in January 2016, which apparently was determined in March 2016 to be a media misreporting hoax:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3477510/Migrant-attacks-conspiracy-hide-truth-Europe-s-liberal-country-Sweden-stopped-citizens-discussing-refugee-influx.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3477510/Migrant-attacks-conspiracy-hide-truth-Europe-s-liberal-country-Sweden-stopped-citizens-discussing-refugee-influx.html)
Your inability does not impress me.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:09:33 AM
In your world, is protesting against neo nazis a bad thing?
The question is not about who she is protesting against, but how. If her protest effectively prevents other fellow citizens from exercising their civil right of assembly, then it is a bad thing irrespective of whether the people she is protesting against are neonazis, gays and lesbians or pigeon fanciers.
But Mart, surely the rule of law doesn't protect people in society, especially the ones who are poor or lack other important resources?
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:13:48 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:09:33 AM
In your world, is protesting against neo nazis a bad thing?
The question is not about who she is protesting against, but how. If her protest effectively prevents other fellow citizens from exercising their civil right of assembly, then it is a bad thing irrespective of whether the people she is protesting against are neonazis, gays and lesbians or pigeon fanciers.
I repeat, how does one woman standing stationary on a public highway stop anyone from exercising their rights?
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Quote from: Gups on May 05, 2016, 10:17:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:13:48 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:09:33 AM
In your world, is protesting against neo nazis a bad thing?
The question is not about who she is protesting against, but how. If her protest effectively prevents other fellow citizens from exercising their civil right of assembly, then it is a bad thing irrespective of whether the people she is protesting against are neonazis, gays and lesbians or pigeon fanciers.
I repeat, how does one woman standing stationary on a public highway stop anyone from exercising their rights?
I already referred to that:
QuoteIncidentally, I am unclear about the details of why she had to be removed by the police - as others said, could not the marchers simply pass her by? But if for some reason the fact that she was standing there physically impeded the ability of the marchers to continue with their legal march, then there is nothing really one should commend her for.
What media (including those who actually support and commend her) are reporting is that she stopped the neonazi marchers from continuing until after the police arrived and removed her. So for some reason she did impede them. Of course if she was just standing there whilst she was passed by and it was more of a symbolic gesture, then obviously she did not stop anyone from exercising their rights (still not a hero, though).
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The key question is whether her protest effectively prevented those other people from exercising their right or not.
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:36:52 AM
The key question is whether her protest effectively prevented those other people from exercising their right or not.
I think it enhanced it. Would you even know about it if she wasn't there?
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The key question is whether her protest effectively prevented those other people from exercising their right or not.
Why is that key?
Protest isnt wrong because it is effective ;)
You are descending into the kind of relativist nonsense you seem to reject in the other thread. I suppose whoever you are following these days hasn't really thought that through.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:40:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The key question is whether her protest effectively prevented those other people from exercising their right or not.
Why is that key?
Protest isnt wrong because it is effective ;)
You are descending into the kind of relativist nonsense you seem to reject in the other thread. I suppose whoever you are following these days hasn't really thought that through.
No, it's not about relativism. It's about rule of law. If you believe that everybody should have equal rights, then such rights should not be invalidated or restricted by violence - i.e. who has bigger numbers or shouts louder. Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are not just for popular opinions and popular people - in fact, it is the most important to uphold them for unpopular opinions and people.
Voltaire was not a post-modernist relativist when he said "I disagre with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say that". He is exactly the Englightenment type postmodernists and relativists are rallying against.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
I'm not sure what your point is. There are many ways to protest that doesn't intrude on the rights of the other party.
Every time I see that pic it looks like the dude in the foreground has a man bun. Which would be pretty hilarious if it were actually there.
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:43:54 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
There are many ways to protest that doesn't intrude on the rights of the other party.
Perhaps, but that does not address my point.
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:43:13 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:40:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The key question is whether her protest effectively prevented those other people from exercising their right or not.
Why is that key?
Protest isnt wrong because it is effective ;)
You are descending into the kind of relativist nonsense you seem to reject in the other thread. I suppose whoever you are following these days hasn't really thought that through.
No, it's not about relativism. It's about rule of law. If you believe that everybody should have equal rights, then such rights should not be invalidated or restricted by violence - i.e. who has bigger numbers or shouts louder. Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are not just for popular opinions and popular people - in fact, it is the most important to uphold them for unpopular opinions and people.
Voltaire was not a post-modernist relativist when he said "I disagre with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say that". He is exactly the Englightenment type postmodernists and relativists are rallying against.
Oh my, trotting out the Rule of Law to prevent an effective protest that does no harm to anyone? Neo Nazis indeed.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:43:54 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
There are many ways to protest that doesn't intrude on the rights of the other party.
Perhaps, but that does not address my point.
Which is exactly what? That it's OK to take a dump on the law if it only hurts nasty people?
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The very purpose of giving them freedom to demonstrate is to allow people to peacefully protest them. Well ok not the very purpose but a very critical component. And last I checked freedom to assemble is a human right not something "approved by the state". Or maybe not. Do you not think that freedom to peacefully assemble is NOT a human right?
That is not say this was not an appropriate form of protest, I wasn't there.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The very purpose of giving them freedom to demonstrate is to allow people to peacefully protest them. Well ok not the very purpose but a very critical component. And last I checked freedom to assemble is a human right not something "approved by the state". Or maybe not. Do you not think that freedom to peacefully assemble is NOT a human right?
That is not say this was not an appropriate form of protest, I wasn't there.
Not sure what tangent you are going on. The comment I was responding to is that the neo nazis had a permit to march. I agree with you that with that permission also comes the ability of others to peacefully protest that march.
I think there may be a misunderstanding here (or CC is deliberately "misunderstanding" my position - and that of few other people).
I am fine with staging a counter-protest to a neonazi march - in fact I applaud someone for doing that (still, if they are at no risk of physical harm, I hesitate with calling them a hero) - as long as the manner of the protest is not such as to physically prevent the neonazis from marching.
Similarly, when someone whom I disagree with exercises their freedom of speech, it is perfectly fine to debate them, ask them questions, even ridicule them (within the rules of the debate). It is not fine, however, to scream or make noise meant to make it impossible for them to speak.
If this is a relativist and illogical position, then I give up.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The very purpose of giving them freedom to demonstrate is to allow people to peacefully protest them. Well ok not the very purpose but a very critical component. And last I checked freedom to assemble is a human right not something "approved by the state". Or maybe not. Do you not think that freedom to peacefully assemble is NOT a human right?
That is not say this was not an appropriate form of protest, I wasn't there.
Not sure what tangent you are going on. The comment I was responding to is that the neo nazis had a permit to march. I agree with you that with that permission also comes the ability of others to peacefully protest that march.
I like the nice touch of throwing "peaceful" in there. "Peaceful" is certainly better than "violent", but it's not like it automatically makes something OK. Much illegal activity is peaceful.
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The very purpose of giving them freedom to demonstrate is to allow people to peacefully protest them. Well ok not the very purpose but a very critical component. And last I checked freedom to assemble is a human right not something "approved by the state". Or maybe not. Do you not think that freedom to peacefully assemble is NOT a human right?
That is not say this was not an appropriate form of protest, I wasn't there.
Not sure what tangent you are going on. The comment I was responding to is that the neo nazis had a permit to march. I agree with you that with that permission also comes the ability of others to peacefully protest that march.
I like the nice touch of throwing "peaceful" in there. "Peaceful" is certainly better than "violent", but it's not like it automatically makes something OK.
Peaceful protest is fundamental to democracy. If you take that away you get the kind of society the neo nazis want ;)
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The very purpose of giving them freedom to demonstrate is to allow people to peacefully protest them. Well ok not the very purpose but a very critical component. And last I checked freedom to assemble is a human right not something "approved by the state". Or maybe not. Do you not think that freedom to peacefully assemble is NOT a human right?
That is not say this was not an appropriate form of protest, I wasn't there.
Not sure what tangent you are going on. The comment I was responding to is that the neo nazis had a permit to march. I agree with you that with that permission also comes the ability of others to peacefully protest that march.
I like the nice touch of throwing "peaceful" in there. "Peaceful" is certainly better than "violent", but it's not like it automatically makes something OK.
Peaceful protest is fundamental to democracy. If you take that away you get the kind of society the neo nazis want ;)
If I were you I would think long and hard (giggle) about law and its purpose.
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:58:11 AM
I am fine with staging a counter-protest to a neonazi march - in fact I applaud someone for doing that (still, if they are at no risk of physical harm, I hesitate with calling them a hero) - as long as the manner of the protest is not such as to physically prevent the neonazis from marching.
How did one lone woman doing nothing more than standing still and holding up her hand "physically" prevent the march?
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 11:13:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 10:19:24 AM
AFAIK the demonstration had a permit to use that stretch of road at that time.
Sure, but that does not mean that people should not protest something that has been approved by the state. In fact, that is often the very purpose of protest.
The very purpose of giving them freedom to demonstrate is to allow people to peacefully protest them. Well ok not the very purpose but a very critical component. And last I checked freedom to assemble is a human right not something "approved by the state". Or maybe not. Do you not think that freedom to peacefully assemble is NOT a human right?
That is not say this was not an appropriate form of protest, I wasn't there.
Not sure what tangent you are going on. The comment I was responding to is that the neo nazis had a permit to march. I agree with you that with that permission also comes the ability of others to peacefully protest that march.
I like the nice touch of throwing "peaceful" in there. "Peaceful" is certainly better than "violent", but it's not like it automatically makes something OK.
Peaceful protest is fundamental to democracy. If you take that away you get the kind of society the neo nazis want ;)
If I were you I would think long and hard (giggle) about law and its purpose.
Right back at you :)
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:58:11 AM
I am fine with staging a counter-protest to a neonazi march - in fact I applaud someone for doing that (still, if they are at no risk of physical harm, I hesitate with calling them a hero) - as long as the manner of the protest is not such as to physically prevent the neonazis from marching.
How did one lone woman doing nothing more than standing still and holding up her hand "physically" prevent the march?
Again, this is the part I am unclear of. I have already said it twice. That is how the media friendly to her reported that, but I agree it seems incredible.
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 11:16:32 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:58:11 AM
I am fine with staging a counter-protest to a neonazi march - in fact I applaud someone for doing that (still, if they are at no risk of physical harm, I hesitate with calling them a hero) - as long as the manner of the protest is not such as to physically prevent the neonazis from marching.
How did one lone woman doing nothing more than standing still and holding up her hand "physically" prevent the march?
Again, this is the part I am unclear of. I have already said it twice. That is how the media friendly to her reported that, but I agree it seems incredible.
Then you should probably not base the whole of your argument on a fact even you admit is incredible.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 11:14:25 AM
How did one lone woman doing nothing more than standing still and holding up her hand "physically" prevent the march?
No idea. Why did the police have to remove her? Again I wasn't there. I certainly would think an anti-abortion protester physically blocking women from entering a Planned Parenthood to be out of bounds. I don't know if this is comparable or not.
Marchers physically removing people standing in the way is a recipe for complications. Much better to let the police handle it. I would guess the marchers didn't want to break formation to bypass her. I don't know if she did/showed inclination to move to block the path of a person who tried, Chinese tank guy style.
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 11:25:15 AM
didn't want to break formation to bypass her
Playing pretend soldiers seems to be a very popular thing with the far right. Ordnung!!! Discipline!!!!
Quote from: Tamas on May 05, 2016, 11:31:57 AM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 11:25:15 AM
didn't want to break formation to bypass her
Playing pretend soldiers seems to be a very popular thing with the far right. Ordnung!!! Discipline!!!!
I know :(
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftamu.imodules.com%2Fs%2F1436%2Fimages%2Fgid15%2Feditor%2Fccmu_team_web_5.jpg&hash=bb449ed33dfb0e986fa0e9ba15e71183b3f066a6)
You guys know that there are videos of the incident that you can check, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s)
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2016, 11:44:42 AM
You guys know that there are videos of the incident that you can check, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s)
Thanks but I have zero interest in viewing a Neo-Nazis demonstration. Vomiting might be bad for my productivity this morning.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 11:48:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2016, 11:44:42 AM
You guys know that there are videos of the incident that you can check, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s)
Thanks but I have zero interest in viewing a Neo-Nazis demonstration. Vomiting might be bad for my productivity this morning.
I concur with The Brain: there is no point in calling these guys neo-nazis. There is no noticable difference between them and the nazis of the 20s and 30s. Nothing.
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2016, 11:44:42 AM
You guys know that there are videos of the incident that you can check, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s)
What's the role of the guy with the bright yellow vest and why is he aggressively pushing that clapping man away? It says "Independent Media" on his back...
Anyway, looks like she showed her defiance but didn't actually hinder the Nazi march and then one of them snapped and grabbed for her.
Marti seems to be under the impression that a) freedom of speech means no private citizen can ever prevent any hate speech in any way, and b) that (Neo-)Nazis are peaceful, law-abiding people who never hurt anyone and that opposing them is perfectly safe.
Quote from: Zanza on May 05, 2016, 12:31:50 PM
What's the role of the guy with the bright yellow vest and why is he aggressively pushing that clapping man away? It says "Independent Media" on his back...
Anyway, looks like she showed her defiance but didn't actually hinder the Nazi march and then one of them snapped and grabbed for her.
If that is the case then I don't see why anybody would have a problem with what she did. That is what these events are designed to do.
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
freedom of speech means no private citizen can ever prevent any hate speech in any way
Well a private citizen should not be preventing speech outside of their own property. They can, of course, express their own ideas.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 11:48:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2016, 11:44:42 AM
You guys know that there are videos of the incident that you can check, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s)
Thanks but I have zero interest in viewing a Neo-Nazis demonstration. Vomiting might be bad for my productivity this morning.
You should see it. Turns out, surprise surprise, that the woman was not blocking the march at all. She was allowing them to March and was conducting her protest ahead of them as they moved down the street.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 01:10:03 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
freedom of speech means no private citizen can ever prevent any hate speech in any way
Well a private citizen should not be preventing speech outside of their own property. They can, of course, express their own ideas.
:huh:
Ok, so you stay in your house and yell at the TV. Others will have to do the heavy lifting.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:13:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 01:10:03 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
freedom of speech means no private citizen can ever prevent any hate speech in any way
Well a private citizen should not be preventing speech outside of their own property. They can, of course, express their own ideas.
:huh:
Ok, so you stay in your house and yell at the TV. Others will have to do the heavy lifting.
Preventing speech is a violation of human rights. I don't think I will allow that kind of activity to take place thank you regardless of how heavy that lifting may be. I don't think protesting something is preventing their speech.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 01:15:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:13:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 01:10:03 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
freedom of speech means no private citizen can ever prevent any hate speech in any way
Well a private citizen should not be preventing speech outside of their own property. They can, of course, express their own ideas.
:huh:
Ok, so you stay in your house and yell at the TV. Others will have to do the heavy lifting.
Preventing speech is a violation of human rights. I don't think I will allow that kind of activity to take place thank you.
What? Preventing hate speech is a violation of human rights? Since when?
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:11:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 11:48:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2016, 11:44:42 AM
You guys know that there are videos of the incident that you can check, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s)
Thanks but I have zero interest in viewing a Neo-Nazis demonstration. Vomiting might be bad for my productivity this morning.
You should see it. Turns out, surprise surprise, that the woman was not blocking the march at all. She was allowing them to March and was conducting her protest ahead of them as they moved down the street.
Yep. As I said it does not appear that she did anything out of line.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 01:16:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:11:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 11:48:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 05, 2016, 11:44:42 AM
You guys know that there are videos of the incident that you can check, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcXdLItLw8s)
Thanks but I have zero interest in viewing a Neo-Nazis demonstration. Vomiting might be bad for my productivity this morning.
You should see it. Turns out, surprise surprise, that the woman was not blocking the march at all. She was allowing them to March and was conducting her protest ahead of them as they moved down the street.
Yep. As I said it does not appear that she did anything out of line.
You yet she was not on her own property?
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:16:18 PM
What? Preventing hate speech is a violation of human rights? Since when?
Since forever. If the KKK can freely march and demonstrate I don't see why that right should not be confirmed on other groups.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:17:37 PM
You yet she was not on her own property?
How was she preventing them from expressing themselves? She was simply expressing herself.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 01:17:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:16:18 PM
What? Preventing hate speech is a violation of human rights? Since when?
Since forever. If the KKK can freely march and demonstrate I don't see why that right should not be confirmed on other groups.
Nobody is stopping them from marching. But it is absurd to suggest, as Marti does, that no one should protest against them while they are doing it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:18:44 PM
But it is absurd to suggest, as Marti does, that no one should protest against them while they are doing it.
Well yes that would be ridiculous if he did, indeed. make that claim.
CC, if you want you can stop now. We understand the situation.
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 01:20:36 PM
CC, if you want you can stop now. We understand the situation.
Yeah, its pretty clear. They had a permit so people should just leave them alone and not protest. Got it. Hope others don't follow your viewpoint.
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:18:44 PM
But it is absurd to suggest, as Marti does, that no one should protest against them while they are doing it.
Well yes that would be ridiculous if he did, indeed. make that claim.
He made the argument she was preventing them from exercising their rights. The claim was absurd
Quote from: Solmyr on May 05, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
Marti seems to be under the impression that a) freedom of speech means no private citizen can ever prevent any hate speech in any way, and b) that (Neo-)Nazis are peaceful, law-abiding people who never hurt anyone and that opposing them is perfectly safe.
Who gets to decide in this case what is and what isn't hate speech? The private citizen? Then it is vigilante justice in action.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:32:13 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 05, 2016, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:18:44 PM
But it is absurd to suggest, as Marti does, that no one should protest against them while they are doing it.
Well yes that would be ridiculous if he did, indeed. make that claim.
He made the argument she was preventing them from exercising their rights. The claim was absurd
Given that I clarified my position on this point at least three times and you still refuse to acknowledge it and continue to misrepresent my position, I have to conclude that you are simply being intellectually dishonest. No worries, though. That's what I expect of you.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2016, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 05, 2016, 01:20:36 PM
CC, if you want you can stop now. We understand the situation.
Yeah, its pretty clear. They had a permit so people should just leave them alone and not protest. Got it. Hope others don't follow your viewpoint.
You are monumentally dense.
Quote from: Zanza on May 05, 2016, 12:31:50 PM
What's the role of the guy with the bright yellow vest and why is he aggressively pushing that clapping man away? It says "Independent Media" on his back...
Anyway, looks like she showed her defiance but didn't actually hinder the Nazi march and then one of them snapped and grabbed for her.
Wild guess is Independent Journalist means in house skinhead mouthpiece.
Btw, no thread on the London mayor office going to an anti-Israeli Islamist-apologist Muslim? Or after Ken Livingstone it's nothing new anymore?
Quote from: Martinus on May 07, 2016, 03:37:31 AM
Btw, no thread on the London mayor office going to an anti-Israeli Islamist-apologist Muslim? Or after Ken Livingstone it's nothing new anymore?
Is it significant to you that he's a Muslim? Isn't "anti-Israeli Islamist-apologist" the important thing in this context?
Fair point.
He's an Islamist apologist ? :unsure:
Thought he was just a Muslim
http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/04/sadiq-khan-slammed-for-calling-moderate-muslim-groups-uncle-toms-5857705/
QuoteJeremy Corbyn is under mounting pressure to stamp down on alleged anti-Semitism and racism within the Labour party
Yeah, surely the upright Tories would never be antisemitic or racist.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailystormer.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F03%2Fsh.png&hash=f698da82ac27f696b0435b2b33e2400624c79f80)
Most. Overrated. Leader. Of. All. Time.
In any case, Khan could hardly be more anti-Jewish than a Pole. Pogroms are in their blood.
The Churchill article in full :
http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html
So, your counter point Norgy is to refer something from 94 years ago? Weak, very weak. But then the left is rarely capable of mounting an actual argument.
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:58:11 AM
If this is a relativist and illogical position, then I give up.
Okay, give up then. You have a right to free speech, you don't have a right from the repercussions of your fellow citizens. People have every right to shout you down.
Quote from: Martinus on May 07, 2016, 04:34:59 AM
http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/04/sadiq-khan-slammed-for-calling-moderate-muslim-groups-uncle-toms-5857705/
Stupid language. But reasonable point. Doesn't have anything to do with being in favour of Islamists.
I haven't been following the London election but I'm sure I heard somewhere that the Tories attempting to paint him as in league with the Islamists really blew up in their face.
Quote from: Tyr on May 07, 2016, 01:07:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 07, 2016, 04:34:59 AM
http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/04/sadiq-khan-slammed-for-calling-moderate-muslim-groups-uncle-toms-5857705/
Stupid language. But reasonable point. Doesn't have anything to do with being in favour of Islamists.
I haven't been following the London election but I'm sure I heard somewhere that the Tories attempting to paint him as in league with the Islamists really blew up in their face.
Well yeah I guess you CAN have a discussion with radicals: "look, here are the basic rules of society, you need to follow them, if you live in this country. Kthxbye".
So he does have a point.
However, referring to moderates as "Uncle Toms" is very telling: he considers them people who have gotten rid of their dignity and true loyalties to appease the majority. Ergo, he despises moderate muslims. There is hardly any other explanation. Even if you fail finding the perfect expression in an interview, you will use one that describes your feelings. I would never call you a Tory just because "socialist" didn't come to my tongue for some reason, for example.
Quote from: Tamas on May 07, 2016, 03:57:00 PMHowever, referring to moderates as "Uncle Toms" is very telling: he considers them people who have gotten rid of their dignity and true loyalties to appease the majority. Ergo, he despises moderate muslims.
Yes. It's effectively the same as white people referring to other whites as "nigger lovers", or more recently, "cucks".
It's difficult to imagine him meaning "uncle Toms" in a context that doesn't imply they are traitors to their race or religion.
Quote from: Norgy on May 07, 2016, 09:08:13 AM
Yeah, surely the upright Tories would never be antisemitic or racist.
Read most of the article, and I don't get how it's antisemitic or racist.
Quote from: Tamas on May 07, 2016, 03:57:00 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 07, 2016, 01:07:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 07, 2016, 04:34:59 AM
http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/04/sadiq-khan-slammed-for-calling-moderate-muslim-groups-uncle-toms-5857705/
Stupid language. But reasonable point. Doesn't have anything to do with being in favour of Islamists.
I haven't been following the London election but I'm sure I heard somewhere that the Tories attempting to paint him as in league with the Islamists really blew up in their face.
Well yeah I guess you CAN have a discussion with radicals: "look, here are the basic rules of society, you need to follow them, if you live in this country. Kthxbye".
So he does have a point.
However, referring to moderates as "Uncle Toms" is very telling: he considers them people who have gotten rid of their dignity and true loyalties to appease the majority. Ergo, he despises moderate muslims. There is hardly any other explanation. Even if you fail finding the perfect expression in an interview, you will use one that describes your feelings. I would never call you a Tory just because "socialist" didn't come to my tongue for some reason, for example.
So to get a reading of the attitudes of Muslims you can just go to a few media friendly types who just tell you what you want to hear and ignore the rest?
OK then.
Jesus Squeesus, you're totally missing the point.
:o
FWIW I believe that Khan is a moderate, he has a 10-year political track record that points that way, the "uncle tom" stuff looks more like pandering to extremists in a bid to get their support. I'm not sure that is any better, pandering of this type has got us where we are today, but it is different to being an Islamist.
In other news my opinion of the pundit Mehdi Hassan has recently risen, it was at an extremely low level, because of this piece in the New Statesman on anti-semitism within the UK's muslim community :
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community
Quote from: Martinus on May 07, 2016, 03:37:31 AM
Btw, no thread on the London mayor office going to an anti-Israeli Islamist-apologist Muslim? Or after Ken Livingstone it's nothing new anymore?
He's not anti-Israeli or an Islamist-apologist. The Tories, in conjunction with sections of the press, tried to tar him with that brush but it did not stick because it isn't true. In fact, it appears to have backfired.
They accused him of sharing a platform, 10 years ago before he was a politician, with a radical Iman - campaigning for the release of a Gitmo prisoner. Unfortunately for the Tories, it turned out that their candidate had also hung out with the Iman, who happens to be a Tory supporter.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/davehillblog/2016/apr/14/london-mayor-goldsmith-attacks-backfire-as-repellent-imams-tory-links-emerge
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 07, 2016, 11:54:40 PM
FWIW I believe that Khan is a moderate, he has a 10-year political track record that points that way, the "uncle tom" stuff looks more like pandering to extremists in a bid to get their support. I'm not sure that is any better, pandering of this type has got us where we are today, but it is different to being an Islamist.
It's a pretty crappy remark by him but I don't think he panders to exremists. He campaigned for same sex marriages and has been prominent in fighting Livingstone and the anti-semites in the Labour party.
Demography is destiny.
Quote from: Gups on May 09, 2016, 06:08:57 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 07, 2016, 11:54:40 PM
FWIW I believe that Khan is a moderate, he has a 10-year political track record that points that way, the "uncle tom" stuff looks more like pandering to extremists in a bid to get their support. I'm not sure that is any better, pandering of this type has got us where we are today, but it is different to being an Islamist.
It's a pretty crappy remark by him but I don't think he panders to exremists. He campaigned for same sex marriages and has been prominent in fighting Livingstone and the anti-semites in the Labour party.
I'm hoping that it was just a one-off. I can't recall any other problematic instances off hand.
and in the meantime Turkey takes another step towards dictatorship...
Quote from: Gups on May 09, 2016, 06:08:57 AM
It's a pretty crappy remark by him
That seems like an understatement to me. I cannot imagine a more horrible statement to demonize a community with. But maybe Uncle Tom is not the smear over there that it is here.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 07, 2016, 04:22:28 PM
Quote from: Norgy on May 07, 2016, 09:08:13 AM
Yeah, surely the upright Tories would never be antisemitic or racist.
Read most of the article, and I don't get how it's antisemitic or racist.
I'm not sure how the headline is even Racisz.
Quote from: derspiess on May 09, 2016, 08:54:23 AM
I'm not sure how the headline is even Racisz.
It says Zionism Spicey. ZIONISM.
Quote from: Norgy on May 07, 2016, 09:08:13 AM
Most. Overrated. Leader. Of. All. Time.
You have got to be kidding me. There are many more over-rated leaders than that guy.
I think this is a good article about Sadiq Khan, that broadly conforms with RH's views (and comes from someone who can hardly be accused of being anti-Muslim):
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/08/the-secret-life-of-sadiq-khan-london-s-first-muslim-mayor.html
Quote from: Martinus on May 05, 2016, 10:43:13 AM
No, it's not about relativism. It's about rule of law. If you believe that everybody should have equal rights, then such rights should not be invalidated or restricted by violence - i.e. who has bigger numbers or shouts louder. Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are not just for popular opinions and popular people - in fact, it is the most important to uphold them for unpopular opinions and people.
Voltaire was not a post-modernist relativist when he said "I disagre with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say that". He is exactly the Englightenment type postmodernists and relativists are rallying against.
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2016, 06:32:50 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 11, 2016, 06:13:48 AM
Quote from: Siege on April 11, 2016, 04:22:26 AM
Karl Popper said, "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Well, paint me as pleasantly surprised that you have been reading Karl Popper. I think you may be misapplying it here, (he was talking about philosophers not Muslims), and may have even gotten it reversed, but at least you are trying!
Uhm, no, he was talking about any groups that espouse ideology or philosophy that is contrary to open liberal society and wants to abolish it. In his time, such group were the nazis, but right now, at least in Western Europe, the most prominent group espousing such ideology are Muslims. Siegy used this quote perfectly a propos.
Incidentally, it's funny how you constantly shit on and are condescending to plenty of people here, while being possibly the most useless, parasitic and unproductive Languishite in real life. Say what you want about Siegy, at least he has done something for the society and/or country outside of his father's basement.
Help me out Marty. Are you a Popperian or a Voltarian?
They are not mutually exclusive. Voltaire is talking purely about free speech and in this regard there should be no restrictions (other than "shouting fire in a crowded theatre"). Popper is talking about broader issues and this can be applied to government policy, such as tolerating certain acts (in the name of multiculturalism, for example), or immigration policy.
In fact, one of the best ways one can ensure that intolerance is not tolerated, as Poppers suggests, is to allow unrestricted criticism of it in the Volterian vein, rather than protecting it from criticism by various muzzle laws.
Edit: corrected a couple of typos.
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2016, 12:21:45 AM
I think this is a good article about Sadiq Khan, that broadly conforms with RH's views (and comes from someone who can hardly be accused of being anti-Muslim):
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/08/the-secret-life-of-sadiq-khan-london-s-first-muslim-mayor.html
Well that is pretty horrifying. London has problems electing normal people mayor I guess.
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 09:04:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2016, 12:21:45 AM
I think this is a good article about Sadiq Khan, that broadly conforms with RH's views (and comes from someone who can hardly be accused of being anti-Muslim):
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/08/the-secret-life-of-sadiq-khan-london-s-first-muslim-mayor.html
Well that is pretty horrifying. London has problems electing normal people mayor I guess.
Is it really though? At best it's guilt by association. Do we really expect aspirant politicians to refuse to undertake due diligence with everyone they share at platform with? We don't seem to apply this standard as a general rule.
I'm not a massive fan of Khan and I didn't vote for him but I'll judge him by his words and his actions and not by the words of some bloke he happened to speak at the same conference with him 15 years ago. Khan has consistently voted for secular measures such as gay marriages and against terrorism.
Just having contact with extremists is not something that should in all cases be held against a politician. Our former interior minister was a criminal laywer for the Red Army Faction terrorists before his political career, but was not making their policies and motives his own.
Did you guys read the article till the end? I think it's him referring to other moderate Muslims as "Uncle Toms" and the fact that he ran a campaign against the political opponent on the fact that he is a wrong kind of Muslim is what is damning, not his associations per se.
Quote from: Gups on May 11, 2016, 10:34:08 AM
Is it really though?
Yeah it is horrifying that a Muslim politician has to appeal to radical Islamists to be elected. That they are the largest grass roots organization among Muslims in Britain. How would that not be horrifying?
QuoteAt best it's guilt by association.
Which is pretty damning for a politician. Appealing to radical xenophobes is helping Trump along. Does it matter rather he is actually a radical xenophobe?
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 10:56:33 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 11, 2016, 10:34:08 AM
Is it really though?
Yeah it is horrifying that a Muslim politician has to appeal to radical Islamists to be elected. That they are the largest grass roots organization among Muslims in Britain. How would that not be horrifying?
QuoteAt best it's guilt by association.
Which is pretty damning for a politician. Appealing to radical xenophobes is helping Trump along. Does it matter rather he is actually a radical xenophobe?
Yup, that too. As Nawaz puts it, it's the bigotry of low expectations - as bad associations are pretty toxic for white Christian politicians and they are expected to disown them.
Quote from: Zanza on May 11, 2016, 10:40:14 AM
Just having contact with extremists is not something that should in all cases be held against a politician. Our former interior minister was a criminal laywer for the Red Army Faction terrorists before his political career, but was not making their policies and motives his own.
True. But this was different, he was actively courting their support by going after other Muslims and exploiting sectarian conflicts.
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 10:56:33 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 11, 2016, 10:34:08 AM
Is it really though?
Yeah it is horrifying that a Muslim politician has to appeal to radical Islamists to be elected. That they are the largest grass roots organization among Muslims in Britain. How would that not be horrifying?
QuoteAt best it's guilt by association.
Which is pretty damning for a politician. Appealing to radical xenophobes is helping Trump along. Does it matter rather he is actually a radical xenophobe?
It's smear article with lots of vague inferences. It's a repeat of the same smears the Tories were coming out with and which have been pretty comprehensively debunked and disproved.
It's simply not the case that he was elected because he sucked up to any religious group. I don't really understand what you mean when you say that radical Islamists are the largest grass roots organisation among Muslims.
Quote from: Gups on May 11, 2016, 11:28:16 AM
It's smear article with lots of vague inferences. It's a repeat of the same smears the Tories were coming out with and which have been pretty comprehensively debunked and disproved.
Is it? The guy seems to be critiquing the problems in British Muslim society and how they compelled this dude to act this way rather than smear him. He goes out of his way to state this several times. A smear campaign would make it sound like he was personally some sort of jihadi, instead the accusation is that political expedience was the motivation. Now he could be wrong but I don't see why a muslim would be motivated to portray his own people as being Islamist.
QuoteIt's simply not the case that he was elected because he sucked up to any religious group.
When you say elected which election are you talking about here? Several were discussed in the article.
QuoteI don't really understand what you mean when you say that radical Islamists are the largest grass roots organisation among Muslims.
I mean what was said in the article. :mellow:
You see, Valmy, what we have to put up with here in Europe?
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2016, 03:24:21 PM
You see, Valmy, what we have to put up with here in Europe?
It is just frustrating that neither Zanza or Gups seem to have given any evidence of even having read the article but seemed eager to tell me what it was saying.
I don't know if that is typical in Europe but it is pretty typical of Languish. :lol:
It's funny because it's exactly the same mechanism the author describes in the article. :P
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 11:34:20 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 11, 2016, 11:28:16 AM
I don't really understand what you mean when you say that radical Islamists are the largest grass roots organisation among Muslims.
I mean what was said in the article. :mellow:
You mean this?
QuoteAnd sadly, extremists remain among the most powerful organized forces in Britain's Muslim grassroots.
Yes, that. I may have quoted it imperfectly but still horrifying.
It's a pretty damning article. Good thing all of the examples in it have been debunked, though, or I'd have some serious questions about this guy. :)
Quote from: Camerus on May 11, 2016, 06:56:32 PM
It's a pretty damning article. Good thing all of the examples in it have been debunked, though, or I'd have some serious questions about this guy. :)
Ok. I will ask again how have they been debunked? Why would this guy lie about it? Especially after the election had taken place?
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 08:38:25 PM
Quote from: Camerus on May 11, 2016, 06:56:32 PM
It's a pretty damning article. Good thing all of the examples in it have been debunked, though, or I'd have some serious questions about this guy. :)
Ok. I will ask again how have they been debunked?
That was me being tongue in cheek. :homestar:
Seriously, there do seem to be such a variety of instances offered by that article that it seems difficult to dismiss them all, but then I admit to knowing almost nothing else about him.
Quote from: Valmy on May 11, 2016, 03:33:48 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 11, 2016, 03:24:21 PM
You see, Valmy, what we have to put up with here in Europe?
It is just frustrating that neither Zanza or Gups seem to have given any evidence of even having read the article but seemed eager to tell me what it was saying.
I don't know if that is typical in Europe but it is pretty typical of Languish. :lol:
I read the whole thing. It's a repeat of the smears Londoners have heard constantly in the last couple of months from the Tories and their supporters in the press which have been almost entirely.
For example, the author claims, like the Tories did, that Khan was heavily involved in the Tooting Mosque, led by an extremist and that he did so in order to claim the Muslim vote in that constituency which he was in danger to losing to another Muslim runining for the Lib Dems . This ignores the fact that Tooting, while it has a large Asian population, is primarily white and Hindu or Buddhist (Sri Lankans and Indians) with a very small Muslim population. It also ignores the fact that the Lib Dems were no threat at all to Khan, they get less that 10% of the vote in Tooting - the Tories are the opposition there and they were represented by a white man.
The central allegation, that Khan was close to the extremist leader of the Tooting mosque has been completely debunked. The Iman is not and has never been an extremist. This has been acknowledged by the Prime Minister and Defence Secretary of the UK who have apologised for saying otherwise.
http://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/05/breaking-defence-secretary-apologises-to-tooting-imam-over-isis-and-sadiq-khan-related-smears/
The Beast author accuses Khan of having an extremist bother in law (as if Khan is his brother in law's keeper). But these allegations were debunked as long ago as 1998 by the Times
https://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/javaid.jpg
I'm not going to go on. Every single allegation made in the article has been made repeatedly in a dirty campaign and has been knocked down. You could easily have found this out by goggling but I guess it's much easier to just believe what you want to from a single article.
Fling enough mud and some of it will stick.
But would then you really want to shake a mud covered hand?
Quote from: Gups on May 12, 2016, 02:29:35 AM
I'm not going to go on. Every single allegation made in the article has been made repeatedly in a dirty campaign and has been knocked down. You could easily have found this out by goggling but I guess it's much easier to just believe what you want to from a single article.
Look I don't give two shits about the mayor of London I was talking about what he was saying about the Muslim community in Britain that would compel a politician to behave that way. That a former extremist was saying that kind of thing seemed pretty scary. The campaign is already over and he specifically said he did not want to hurt the dude's campaign.
You said something so I asked you for more details but apparently that is beyond the pale and makes me wanting to take the easy way out or some shit.. Fine next time something goes down in Texas I will act like a dick and insist everybody just google it and accuse the poster who lives thousands of miles away of having some kind of agenda :lol:
And for the record I do not want to believe what the article is saying. Despite your bizarre and baseless insistence I do. Why would I want to believe something so terrible?
Quote from: Valmy on May 12, 2016, 08:54:46 AM
Quote from: Gups on May 12, 2016, 02:29:35 AM
I'm not going to go on. Every single allegation made in the article has been made repeatedly in a dirty campaign and has been knocked down. You could easily have found this out by goggling but I guess it's much easier to just believe what you want to from a single article.
Look I don't give two shits about the mayor of London I was talking about what he was saying about the Muslim community in Britain that would compel a politician to behave that way. That a former extremist was saying that kind of thing seemed pretty scary. The campaign is already over and he specifically said he did not want to hurt the dude's campaign.
You said something so I asked you for more details but apparently that is beyond the pale and makes me wanting to take the easy way out or some shit.. Fine next time something goes down in Texas I will act like a dick and insist everybody just google it and accuse the poster who lives thousands of miles away of having some kind of agenda :lol:
When did you ask for details? All you did was accuse me of not having read the article, presumably because I took a different view of it then you do. I won't go so far as saying you were acting like a dick but you were sharing a platform with a known dick.
I don't know what this guy's motivation is and why he is repeating stuff that he knows damn well isn't true. Maybe he's after funding for his pressure group? Maybe he wants to be to go to moderate Mulsim guy for the media? Maybe he just doesn't like Khan? But come, on, just because he used to be an extremist doesn't give him any credibility in itself.
I don't doubt many of those accusations are either outright false or greatly sensationalized for political or personal reasons, but I also find it hard to believe that the nasty "Uncle Tom" comments would be made in a vacuum by a candidate who otherwise wouldn't dream of pandering (or feel the need to).
The one way it would work for me is if he considered himself an Uncle Tom. Self deprecating humor.
Again though. What he was saying was perfectly reasonable. It's just the language he used in the moment was a bit iffy.
I can only say
1: that was an odd term to use. Not at all a common phrase outside of the us (well. To white brits anyway. Maybe asiams use it more for some reason?) It stands to reason he didn't get how offensive it is in the us.
2: he was speaking to a islamist crowd. Empathising with them to better make his moderate point.
One of the key rules of speaking, to use your audiences language.
And that's exactly what we need! A Muslim mayor of London who makes sure to appease Islamists opinions!
That is hardly his defining characteristic. :rolleyes:
I know, but it's funny how Tyr is just digging a deeper hole trying to talk the guy out of this one particular thing, because party loyalty doesn't allow him to let anything pass. :lol:
:unsure: I'm not in the labour party.
I just think it's stupid so much is being made of this. Doesn't strike me as too bad at all.
And :rolleyes:
Islamists are a fact of life in the world. You can scream at them until they go away (how is that working?) Or engage with them and pull them away from extremism.
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2016, 07:23:53 AM
And :rolleyes:
Islamists are a fact of life in the world. You can scream at them until they go away (how is that working?) Or engage with them and pull them away from extremism.
Insh'Allah. :P
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2016, 07:23:53 AM
And :rolleyes:
Islamists are a fact of life in the world. You can scream at them until they go away (how is that working?) Or engage with them and pull them away from extremism.
Replace Islamists with fascists and you'll find the left responding to them in much the same way as the right does with the Islamists. It works both ways.
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2016, 07:23:53 AM
:unsure: I'm not in the labour party.
I just think it's stupid so much is being made of this. Doesn't strike me as too bad at all.
And :rolleyes:
Islamists are a fact of life in the world. You can scream at them until they go away (how is that working?) Or engage with them and pull them away from extremism.
So they go from a tiny minority who represent nobody to a fact of life that needs to be engaged with? Sad. And they are not a fact of life among the Muslim communities I know.
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2016, 07:23:53 AM
:unsure: I'm not in the labour party.
I just think it's stupid so much is being made of this. Doesn't strike me as too bad at all.
And :rolleyes:
Islamists are a fact of life in the world. You can scream at them until they go away (how is that working?) Or engage with them and pull them away from extremism.
Or you can exterminate them. That has worked in the past with representatives of other dangerous ideologies.
Seriously, I have never thought we would get to the point that someone on this forum advocates "engaging" with islamists.
Entitlement culture?
Executive Summary
A Sudanese asylum seeker, now a card-carrying refugee, not happy because he was not granted social housing immediately,messes up and burns offices in Annecy city hall (SE France near Switzerland). One paper too much to fill, according to the report. I wonder if he knows French people can wait up to 20 years for social housing.:hmm:
http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/alpes/haute-savoie/annecy/sans-logement-un-refugie-brule-des-bureaux-de-la-mairie-d-annecy-1000171.html (http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/alpes/haute-savoie/annecy/sans-logement-un-refugie-brule-des-bureaux-de-la-mairie-d-annecy-1000171.html)
Quotehome / Alpes / Haute-Savoie / Annecy
Sans logement, un réfugié brûle des bureaux de la mairie d'Annecy
Un Soudanais, qui venait d'obtenir le statut de réfugié, a été interpellé mardi à Annecy après avoir incendié les locaux d'une antenne de la mairie. Il reprochait aux employées de ne pas lui trouver un logement "tout de suite".
Les employées du Pôle Solidarités d'Annecy n'en reviennent toujours pas. Mardi 17 mai, un réfugié politique, mais surtout un homme manifestement instable, s'est enfermé dans leurs bureaux et les a tout bonnement incendiés avant de sortir et d'être interpellé dans un square.
Nouveau réfugié, il exigeait un logement
Selon la police, l'individu est un Soudanais de 28 ans. Fin avril, il a obtenu le statut de réfugié. C'est donc avec sa carte de réfugié qu'il se présente, mardi matin, au pôle solidarité, qui gère les logements sociaux, pour exiger d'obtenir un logement rapidement à Annecy, qui lui serait "dû", selon lui, vu son nouveau statut. Les employées lui expliquent que ce n'est pas possible, lui donnent un dossier à remplir et lui demandent de revenir l'après-midi. Il s'exécute.
De retour, il s'énerve quand les agents lui demandent à nouveau de remplir un formulaire. Il ne veut pas attendre. Les employées appellent alors le 115 pour obtenir au moins un logement d'urgence, mais aucun n'est disponible. Alors le ton monte, les insultes volent... ainsi que les ordinateurs.
Il a tout pété...
L'homme balance le matériel. Les employées sortent du bureau. Il s'y enferme et détruit tout, les ordinateurs, les fenêtres... puis met le feu avec un briquet, selon la police. "Il a attendu que ça prenne bien, puis il est sorti dans un square où nous l'avons arrêté", raconte-t-on au commissariat, qui avait entre-temps été alerté par les employées.
Près de 100.000 euros de préjudice
Au final deux bureaux ont bien brûlé et un troisième aurait été touché, toujours selon la police. Selon une première estimation, il y en aurait pour 100.000 euros de préjudice.
Le jeune homme sera jugé en comparution immédiate, jeudi matin.
No news yet if the refugee status will be revoked but he was to be judged tomorrow morning i.e on Thursday.
Why even have social housing, when regular subsidies would be better, faster and less distorting to the housing market?
Is it to ensure ghettoization of the poor or something? Keep them segregated?
Quote from: Martinus on May 14, 2016, 02:32:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2016, 07:23:53 AM
:unsure: I'm not in the labour party.
I just think it's stupid so much is being made of this. Doesn't strike me as too bad at all.
And :rolleyes:
Islamists are a fact of life in the world. You can scream at them until they go away (how is that working?) Or engage with them and pull them away from extremism.
Or you can exterminate them. That has worked in the past with representatives of other dangerous ideologies.
Never go full Hitler.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2016, 12:53:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 14, 2016, 02:32:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2016, 07:23:53 AM
:unsure: I'm not in the labour party.
I just think it's stupid so much is being made of this. Doesn't strike me as too bad at all.
And :rolleyes:
Islamists are a fact of life in the world. You can scream at them until they go away (how is that working?) Or engage with them and pull them away from extremism.
Or you can exterminate them. That has worked in the past with representatives of other dangerous ideologies.
Never go full Hitler.
How is this full Hitler - unless you equate Islamists with Muslims?
Quote from: Martinus on May 14, 2016, 02:32:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 13, 2016, 07:23:53 AM
:unsure: I'm not in the labour party.
I just think it's stupid so much is being made of this. Doesn't strike me as too bad at all.
And :rolleyes:
Islamists are a fact of life in the world. You can scream at them until they go away (how is that working?) Or engage with them and pull them away from extremism.
Or you can exterminate them. That has worked in the past with representatives of other dangerous ideologies.
Seriously, I have never thought we would get to the point that someone on this forum advocates "engaging" with islamists.
And whats the problem with engaging with them pray tell?
It seems a much smarter move than placing a hit on anyone who says something disagreeable. You're not a Daesh sleeper agent are you? As that one is right out of their playbook.
I'm all for killing jihadists, but who exactly should we exterminate? Just the actual jihadists fighting for Daesh? Their families? The imams whose speeches inspire them? Anyone who ever listens to Islamist ideology and does not immediately disagree? Some of these options are pretty Hitler. And of course, the war on terror has worked SO WELL.
Quote from: Solmyr on May 18, 2016, 02:06:25 PM
I'm all for killing jihadists, but who exactly should we exterminate? Just the actual jihadists fighting for Daesh? Their families? The imams whose speeches inspire them? Anyone who ever listens to Islamist ideology and does not immediately disagree? Some of these options are pretty Hitler. And of course, the war on terror has worked SO WELL.
Jihadists should be the only targets, though some collateral damage is inevitable.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 18, 2016, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 18, 2016, 02:06:25 PM
I'm all for killing jihadists, but who exactly should we exterminate? Just the actual jihadists fighting for Daesh? Their families? The imams whose speeches inspire them? Anyone who ever listens to Islamist ideology and does not immediately disagree? Some of these options are pretty Hitler. And of course, the war on terror has worked SO WELL.
Jihadists should be the only targets, though some collateral damage is inevitable.
Aren't they already? Clearly, it is not working so well since terrorism is still happening and people keep joining their ranks.
I don't know man. If we had time travel technology, I'd suggest the best tactic would be to support Saddam, support Assad, support Qadaffi, etc.
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2016, 01:39:31 PM
How is this full Hitler - unless you equate Islamists with Muslims?
Extermination of people based on opinions or beliefs they hold is problematic for either a Voltarian or Popperian liberal. SOP for fascism though.
What does it mean to "engage with an Islamist?"
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2016, 02:45:13 PM
What does it mean to "engage with an Islamist?"
Offer them either: a) that you'll convert to Islam or b)your head for them to chop off
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 18, 2016, 02:16:50 PM
I don't know man. If we had time travel technology, I'd suggest the best tactic would be to support Saddam, support Assad, support Qadaffi, etc.
You'd support terrorists to prevent terrorism? :hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2016, 02:45:13 PM
What does it mean to "engage with an Islamist?"
Step 1. Do not pre-emptively exterminate them.
Step 2. Engage in some sort of conversation with them to understand where they're coming from and share our priorities.
Step 3 (optional). Discuss various potential arrangements to encourage better and more beneficial relationships, based on step 2.
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2016, 04:08:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2016, 02:45:13 PM
What does it mean to "engage with an Islamist?"
Step 1. Do not pre-emptively exterminate them.
Step 2. Engage in some sort of conversation with them to understand where they're coming from and share our priorities.
Step 3 (optional). Discuss various potential arrangements to encourage better and more beneficial relationships, based on step 2.
Let's assume you do and, as part of Step 2, they tell you their priorities are to (i) keep women subjugated, and (ii) kill the gays. What kind of potential arrangements would you offer as a part of Step 3?
Yeah, what more understanding do we need or can we get about where they're coming from, and how are our priorities unclear to them?
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2016, 04:08:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2016, 02:45:13 PM
What does it mean to "engage with an Islamist?"
Step 1. Do not pre-emptively exterminate them.
Step 2. Engage in some sort of conversation with them to understand where they're coming from and share our priorities.
Step 3 (optional). Discuss various potential arrangements to encourage better and more beneficial relationships, based on step 2.
I personally would stick to step 1. Not that interested in conversation but neither am I in a rush to set up death camps. I'm confident there is some room in the middle there.
The thing is with far right extremists, is that where they become popular there tends to be a reason behind it. The nazis didn't just spring out of nowhere, it took the depression to propel them to power.
Sure, there's always a small hardcore who are truly committed to evil nonsense.
But for the majority things tend not to be so simplistic. Factors such as poverty and a perceived discrimination against their group are major factors that push many young muslims in the UK towards Islamism.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2016, 04:18:29 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2016, 04:08:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2016, 02:45:13 PM
What does it mean to "engage with an Islamist?"
Step 1. Do not pre-emptively exterminate them.
Step 2. Engage in some sort of conversation with them to understand where they're coming from and share our priorities.
Step 3 (optional). Discuss various potential arrangements to encourage better and more beneficial relationships, based on step 2.
I personally would stick to step 1. Not that interested in conversation but neither am I in a rush to set up death camps. I'm confident there is some room in the middle there.
I was actually thinking of drone strikes as opposed to death camps.
Quote from: Tyr on May 18, 2016, 04:25:45 PM
The thing is with far right extremists, is that where they become popular there tends to be a reason behind it. The nazis didn't just spring out of nowhere, it took the depression to propel them to power.
Sure, there's always a small hardcore who are truly committed to evil nonsense.
But for the majority things tend not to be so simplistic. Factors such as poverty and a perceived discrimination against their group are major factors that push many young muslims in the UK towards Islamism.
I wouldn't engage nazis in a conversation to understand their priorities either.
Quote from: Martinus on May 18, 2016, 04:28:12 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 18, 2016, 04:25:45 PM
The thing is with far right extremists, is that where they become popular there tends to be a reason behind it. The nazis didn't just spring out of nowhere, it took the depression to propel them to power.
Sure, there's always a small hardcore who are truly committed to evil nonsense.
But for the majority things tend not to be so simplistic. Factors such as poverty and a perceived discrimination against their group are major factors that push many young muslims in the UK towards Islamism.
I wouldn't engage nazis in a conversation to understand their priorities either.
Awesome. Leave the working class to them then. What could possibly go wrong?
I don't want to engage assholes, neither Nazis nor Islamists.
There are some basic liberal values and if you accept them you are welcome. Else please leave or don't come and search your happiness elsewhere.
Quote from: Zanza on May 18, 2016, 04:37:57 PM
I don't want to engage assholes, neither Nazis nor Islamists.
There are some basic liberal values and if you accept them you are welcome. Else please leave or don't come and search your happiness elsewhere.
:cheers:
Quote from: citizen k on May 18, 2016, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 18, 2016, 02:16:50 PM
I don't know man. If we had time travel technology, I'd suggest the best tactic would be to support Saddam, support Assad, support Qadaffi, etc.
You'd support terrorists to prevent terrorism? :hmm:
I would support order over anarchy, given the knowledge of where the historical path got us.
I'm not convinced that it's productive to engage with scum.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2016, 04:16:49 PM
Yeah, what more understanding do we need or can we get about where they're coming from, and how are our priorities unclear to them?
Good question.
I was merely explaining what I thought was meant when people suggest engaging with Islamists. I'm not particularly interested in arguing for or against it as a proposition at this time and place.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2016, 04:18:29 PM
I personally would stick to step 1. Not that interested in conversation but neither am I in a rush to set up death camps. I'm confident there is some room in the middle there.
Yeah for sure. There's plenty of room between engagement on one hand, and war of extermination on the other.
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2016, 05:59:41 PM
Good question.
I was merely explaining what I thought was meant when people suggest engaging with Islamists. I'm not particularly interested in arguing for or against it as a proposition at this time and place.
10-4
Quote from: Zanza on May 18, 2016, 04:37:57 PM
I don't want to engage assholes, neither Nazis nor Islamists.
There are some basic liberal values and if you accept them you are welcome. Else please leave or don't come and search your happiness elsewhere.
I concur that there's a baseline of liberal values that are non-negotiable.
That does not, from my view, mean that there's never value in engagement with people labelled as Nazis or Islamists especially given how broadly those labels are applied by bigots.
In particular, I find the usage of the term Islamist somewhat fuzzy, so I'm not particularly keen on categorically closing off the option of engagement with Islamists until I know what definition is being used.
Also, I'd note that engagement with - say - a confused 16 year old embracing extremist labels and rhetoric may in fact be pretty fruitful, while at the same time I'm perfectly at peace with having no engagement with people organizing and profiting from violent attacks on innocents.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2016, 06:03:10 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2016, 05:59:41 PM
Good question.
I was merely explaining what I thought was meant when people suggest engaging with Islamists. I'm not particularly interested in arguing for or against it as a proposition at this time and place.
10-4
Though as you see, in my previous post I'm kind of engaging in the question against my better judgement... :(
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2016, 06:09:01 PM
Though as you see, in my previous post I'm kind of engaging in the question against my better judgement... :(
Flip flopper.
(This part not just to you.)
I have no problem with studying the radicalization process to see what steps we can take to halt it. That is not what the word "engagement means to me. In what I described the targets are subjects in a social engineering process. "Engagement" to me sounds perilously close to negotiation. "We'll give you a little more sharia if you give us a few less bombings."
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2016, 06:15:07 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2016, 06:09:01 PM
Though as you see, in my previous post I'm kind of engaging in the question against my better judgement... :(
Flip flopper.
(This part not just to you.)
I have no problem with studying the radicalization process to see what steps we can take to halt it. That is not what the word "engagement means to me. In what I described the targets are subjects in a social engineering process. "Engagement" to me sounds perilously close to negotiation. "We'll give you a little more sharia if you give us a few less bombings."
For me, I see engagement as being useful along two axes:
1) The studying of the radicalization process and ways to head it off, as you point to. F. ex. by listening to angry young Islamists (or Nazis) can we identify problems that we can solve in ways that lead fewer angry young Islamists ending up doing something radically violent. Relatedly, it's fine to negotiate about water rights with people who have legitimate grievances (say "hey, these assholes are using all the water so we can't water our crops"), even if they organize their political efforts along Islamist lines. And if, say, a conflict is rooted in water and land rights it's worth it engaging and finding that out - and try to address it - even if the conflict is sometimes/ frequently framed in terms of religious conflict.
2) I'm okay with a little more Sharia, depending on context; not as a quid pro quo for "fewer bombings" because yeah, negotiating in the face of violence is a no-go. But ways to maximize the available amount of Sharia while maintaining the non-negotiable basic liberal values are fine - like f. ex. Sharia family law arbitration in Ontario (https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/family/arbitration/faith-based.php) (which is a subset of faith based family law arbitration).
I'm a little fuzzy on what "Islamist" means in this context as well. Presumably something negative.
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2016, 06:32:20 PMI'm okay with a little more Sharia, depending on context; not as a quid pro quo for "fewer bombings" because yeah, negotiating in the face of violence is a no-go. But ways to maximize the available amount of Sharia while maintaining the non-negotiable basic liberal values are fine - like f. ex. Sharia family law arbitration in Ontario (https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/family/arbitration/faith-based.php) (which is a subset of faith based family law arbitration).
This is where we clearly disagree. I am not interested in drawing our thin red line as far back as "non-negotiable basic liberal values". There are plenty of liberal values that fall short of being "non-negotiable" and "basic" but which nonetheless are infinitely better than those of Sharia law, for example, and which should not be given up or watered down.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 18, 2016, 08:02:08 PM
I'm a little fuzzy on what "Islamist" means in this context as well. Presumably something negative.
Islamism is to Islam what dominionism is to Christianity. Both are incompatible with liberal values, although islamism is more dangerous than dominionism, simply because Christianity offers more options for non-oppressive, non-violent interpretation than Islam does.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 18, 2016, 08:02:08 PM
I'm a little fuzzy on what "Islamist" means in this context as well. Presumably something negative.
An Islamist is a fundamentalist Muslim. We engage with them all the time. We have embassies and trade relations in Saudi Arabia for instance.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 18, 2016, 12:24:48 PM
Why even have social housing, when regular subsidies would be better, faster and less distorting to the housing market?
Is it to ensure ghettoization of the poor or something? Keep them segregated?
There is quality social housing too, despite the bad realities of banlieues. In central Paris, they are really coveted with 20-year long waiting lists. As for social housing vs regular subsidies, both distort the market...
Keep them segregated does not really work as in the US, since public transport is much better, even in the province.
It's easy to forget that once social housing, even high-rises, were popular during the Glorious Thirties, so the people living there would not mess them up.
Jacob
PTSD? Possibly, but this would show once again that screening really leaves a lot to desire.
Quote from: Gups on May 19, 2016, 02:14:25 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 18, 2016, 08:02:08 PM
I'm a little fuzzy on what "Islamist" means in this context as well. Presumably something negative.
An Islamist is a fundamentalist Muslim. We engage with them all the time. We have embassies and trade relations in Saudi Arabia for instance.
Which is probably the greatest Western shame of our times.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 19, 2016, 02:35:49 AM
It's easy to forget that once social housing, even high-rises, were popular during the Glorious Thirties, so the people living there would not mess them up.
Just because they were popular with those in power doesn't mean they were ever a good idea. Godard had a film criticizing them in 1967, IIRC. Not to mention that they were principally a "solution" to the favelas that the guest-workers were living in during the 50s.
The same ideology held sway in the US and is now thoroughly discredited. Look at Cabrini Green for one notorious example.
Quote from: Zanza on May 18, 2016, 04:37:57 PM
I don't want to engage assholes, neither Nazis nor Islamists.
There are some basic liberal values and if you accept them you are welcome. Else please leave or don't come and search your happiness elsewhere.
Yes that is the key. We MUST defend the very basics of our societies because that is how we defend those who depend on the benefits of a modern, equalitarian society. This should be made clear to everyone in our countries: what we have is not the natural order of human societies, it is the remarkable result of centuries of gradual and painful development full of sacrifices, and it is extremely fragile and vulnerable, as evidenced by recent happenings: the slightest challenge to it seems to push many people away from it.
If somebody is arguing for legal, or even moral, superiority of a group of people over the other (man vs. woman, believers vs. nonbelievers, white people vs. coloured people), they deserve no understanding and definitely not a seeking of compromise.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on May 19, 2016, 03:53:41 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 19, 2016, 02:35:49 AM
It's easy to forget that once social housing, even high-rises, were popular during the Glorious Thirties, so the people living there would not mess them up.
Just because they were popular with those in power doesn't mean they were ever a good idea. Godard had a film criticizing them in 1967, IIRC. Not to mention that they were principally a "solution" to the favelas that the guest-workers were living in during the 50s.
The same ideology held sway in the US and is now thoroughly discredited. Look at Cabrini Green for one notorious example.
Wrong. Those living there liked them, but they had not entitlement so close after the war, not to mention no identity politics, as most were French and/or European. Cities had to be rebuild after the war, immigrants or no immigrants. And quickly, which explains lots of the problems appearing after. There was even a name for it, taken from one of the largest suburbs near Paris, Sarcelles: sarcellite. No "guest worker" issue there. Hint: DSK. .)
As for Godard, well '67 was the beginning of his Mao period so what movie are you thinking about? I don't think it's la Chinoise. :lol: Week-End? Even Godard said it was a caricature.
Besides, in the '50s you had not a majority of immigrants in the "grand ensembles. It was still the '50s, the Communist party reigned supreme in the "banlieues rouges". The Athenes charter was the model for these housing projects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Charter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Charter). Influenced by Le Corbusier, who himself has a few not-so-good banlieues designed (ahem). Pre-war somewhat utopian designs which were an inspiration from the France and the UK to the USSR. Yes, there is a reason why the housing projects (high-rises- look alike.
Furthermore, as strict marxists the PCF wanted no immigrants to reinforce the reserve army of labour, as per capitalist practices, still in use today. PCF betrayed in the mid '80S thanks to Juquin.
The real spike of immigrants started only at the end of the 50s, with family regrouping only starting from '74-75 (bloody Chirac!).
The US situation is too different to compare with the French one. Public transport, different city organisations since "inner cities" are all the chic here (it's central!), different space constraints.
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2016, 04:03:43 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 18, 2016, 04:37:57 PM
I don't want to engage assholes, neither Nazis nor Islamists.
There are some basic liberal values and if you accept them you are welcome. Else please leave or don't come and search your happiness elsewhere.
Yes that is the key. We MUST defend the very basics of our societies because that is how we defend those who depend on the benefits of a modern, equalitarian society. This should be made clear to everyone in our countries: what we have is not the natural order of human societies, it is the remarkable result of centuries of gradual and painful development full of sacrifices, and it is extremely fragile and vulnerable, as evidenced by recent happenings: the slightest challenge to it seems to push many people away from it.
If somebody is arguing for legal, or even moral, superiority of a group of people over the other (man vs. woman, believers vs. nonbelievers, white people vs. coloured people), they deserve no understanding and definitely not a seeking of compromise.
I wouldn't go that far - some cultures and value systems are morally superior to others.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 19, 2016, 02:35:49 AMPTSD? Possibly, but this would show once again that screening really leaves a lot to desire.
PTSD is not uncommon amongst people who have escaped warzones, who have lost most of their worldly possessions, and so on; so I would expect that it's pretty common amongst refugees from a number of places. I expect that the process of fleeing has the potential for some pretty harrowing moments as well.
As for screenings, I think it's reasonable to diagnose PTSD so you can provide help; though at this juncture that does not seem like something supported by the political situation.
Quote from: Martinus on May 19, 2016, 01:21:01 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 18, 2016, 08:02:08 PM
I'm a little fuzzy on what "Islamist" means in this context as well. Presumably something negative.
Islamism is to Islam what dominionism is to Christianity. Both are incompatible with liberal values, although islamism is more dangerous than dominionism, simply because Christianity offers more options for non-oppressive, non-violent interpretation than Islam does.
Dominionism doesn't actually exist. People don't actually describe themselves as "Dominionist", It's a pejorative and a conspiracy theory.
Do people describe themselves as islamist?
Quote from: Jacob on May 18, 2016, 06:07:48 PM
In particular, I find the usage of the term Islamist somewhat fuzzy, so I'm not particularly keen on categorically closing off the option of engagement with Islamists until I know what definition is being used.
The German constitution has a concept called "liberal-democratic basic order" and that includes basic human rights and the basic organisation of the state as a secular, federal republic with democratic elections. I don't care if you don't like parts of it because of your religious (Islamists, Christian fundies, Scientologists ...) or ideological (Nazi, Commies...) worldview. In each case, your worldview makes you an enemy of our liberal-democratic basic order and I don't see any value in engaging such people. We need to protect our society from them and fight their attempts to change it towards their worldview.
QuoteAlso, I'd note that engagement with - say - a confused 16 year old embracing extremist labels and rhetoric may in fact be pretty fruitful, while at the same time I'm perfectly at peace with having no engagement with people organizing and profiting from violent attacks on innocents.
Everybody is welcome back into the fold of said liberal-democratic order. If a confused 16-year old is willing to accept our values again, help him to leave the destructive environment he is in. But I don't want to engage with his confused values! That's a clear difference.
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2016, 03:55:36 AM
Do people describe themselves as islamist?
They probably have a word in Arabic.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 20, 2016, 04:14:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2016, 03:55:36 AM
Do people describe themselves as islamist?
They probably have a word in Arabic.
That doesn't answer my question. You most likely have no idea and it just shows how your response to my post about dominionism and how it differs from islamism was pulled out of your ass.
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2016, 04:59:38 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 20, 2016, 04:14:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 20, 2016, 03:55:36 AM
Do people describe themselves as islamist?
They probably have a word in Arabic.
That doesn't answer my question. You most likely have no idea and it just shows how your response to my post about dominionism and how it differs from islamism was pulled out of your ass.
I don't know Arabic, but I can safely say whatever Islamism is it it's not like Dominionism because Dominionism doesn't actually exist. It's a conspiracy theory that had some currency during the Bush administration. Basically it was the belief that there was a secret plot to turn America into a Theocracy. It's up there with the idea homosexuals are plotting to turn children gay, or Jews control Capitalism and Communism and are trying to tear down civilization.
On second thought Marty might have point. Perhaps Islamism is like Dominionism in that it is not a useful term. I mean we use it to describe Wahbism in Saudi Arabia as well the ideology of Iran despite the fact that both ideologies run at cross purposes.
What are the Fundamental beliefs of Islam and the Fundamental beliefs of Islamism? What ideas are required to be a Muslim and what are the ideas that required to be an Islamist?
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 19, 2016, 04:19:23 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on May 19, 2016, 03:53:41 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on May 19, 2016, 02:35:49 AM
It's easy to forget that once social housing, even high-rises, were popular during the Glorious Thirties, so the people living there would not mess them up.
Just because they were popular with those in power doesn't mean they were ever a good idea. Godard had a film criticizing them in 1967, IIRC. Not to mention that they were principally a "solution" to the favelas that the guest-workers were living in during the 50s.
The same ideology held sway in the US and is now thoroughly discredited. Look at Cabrini Green for one notorious example.
Wrong. Those living there liked them, but they had not entitlement so close after the war, not to mention no identity politics, as most were French and/or European. Cities had to be rebuild after the war, immigrants or no immigrants. And quickly, which explains lots of the problems appearing after. There was even a name for it, taken from one of the largest suburbs near Paris, Sarcelles: sarcellite. No "guest worker" issue there. Hint: DSK. .)
As for Godard, well '67 was the beginning of his Mao period so what movie are you thinking about? I don't think it's la Chinoise. :lol: Week-End? Even Godard said it was a caricature.
Besides, in the '50s you had not a majority of immigrants in the "grand ensembles. It was still the '50s, the Communist party reigned supreme in the "banlieues rouges". The Athenes charter was the model for these housing projects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Charter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Charter). Influenced by Le Corbusier, who himself has a few not-so-good banlieues designed (ahem). Pre-war somewhat utopian designs which were an inspiration from the France and the UK to the USSR. Yes, there is a reason why the housing projects (high-rises- look alike.
Furthermore, as strict marxists the PCF wanted no immigrants to reinforce the reserve army of labour, as per capitalist practices, still in use today. PCF betrayed in the mid '80S thanks to Juquin.
The real spike of immigrants started only at the end of the 50s, with family regrouping only starting from '74-75 (bloody Chirac!).
The US situation is too different to compare with the French one. Public transport, different city organisations since "inner cities" are all the chic here (it's central!), different space constraints.
Well, what this all amounts to is that the French ruling class made a big mistake in building the banlieues. But the high-rise social housing apartment buildings in the banlieues are there now. And there appears to be a strong desire to demonize the inhabitants of these shitty projects rather than an equally strong desire to build better social housing.
I was long-time friends with a (white, "French") Frenchman who had lived in social housing (where he was in a small white minority -- I think his residence there had to do with having free or heavily-discounted rent as a teacher on government pay) in the Grenoble banlieues before coming to the US.
When I asked him about his life in France, he casually described having broken TVs thrown at him from 10 stories above as he walked into the building, heading off to work only to find to his humble Peugot ruined by an iron cauldron, soup intact, that had been tossed onto it from the same height or higher, being beaten to the ground by 4 or 5 guys on a couple of occasions.
And of course the piss-stained stairwells, broken elevators, graffiti covering every surface in sight, etc. But: 1) none of this is unique to the French experience -- I think any US project-dweller would be nodding right along; and 2) my friend remained quite left in his politics (at least 10 years ago), since although he had personally experienced the shittiness of life in 1st- or 2nd-generation immigrant communities, he could see the structural factors that kept this status quo in place.
(I was thinking of
Two or Three Things I Know About Her, FWIW.) (And I also completely understand the PCF's position against immigration driving down wages/conditions; something that's also not as unfamiliar to the US, in its labor history [and labor present], as you might think.)
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on May 21, 2016, 08:18:55 PM
Well, what this all amounts to is that the French ruling class made a big mistake in building the banlieues. But the high-rise social housing apartment buildings in the banlieues are there now. And there appears to be a strong desire to demonize the inhabitants of these shitty projects rather than an equally strong desire to build better social housing.
Wrong, there's lots of money being injected in urban renewal and in local NGOs. After a few years, given the low maintenance and care shown by the local tenants, it's a mess again. The people in the poor countryside, poorer than the banlieues, would love to get some renewal money. They don't get bus lines or bus stop. So they cannot have bus stops burning as a week-end hobby.
There's also some areas where the drug laws are not strongly enforced to buy peace along with a closed eye to islamisation.
Quote
I was long-time friends with a (white, "French") Frenchman who had lived in social housing (where he was in a small white minority -- I think his residence there had to do with having free or heavily-discounted rent as a teacher on government pay) in the Grenoble banlieues before coming to the US.
When I asked him about his life in France, he casually described having broken TVs thrown at him from 10 stories above as he walked into the building, heading off to work only to find to his humble Peugot ruined by an iron cauldron, soup intact, that had been tossed onto it from the same height or higher, being beaten to the ground by 4 or 5 guys on a couple of occasions.
And of course the piss-stained stairwells, broken elevators, graffiti covering every surface in sight, etc. But: 1) none of this is unique to the French experience -- I think any US project-dweller would be nodding right along; and 2) my friend remained quite left in his politics (at least 10 years ago), since although he had personally experienced the shittiness of life in 1st- or 2nd-generation immigrant communities, he could see the structural factors that kept this status quo in place.
Apart from going to the US (now that's a left-winger ! :lol:), that's typical. White flight from the banlieues. In France, this means going to the outer periphery of cities beyond the banlieues, in some former countryside areas.
Quote
(I was thinking of Two or Three Things I Know About Her, FWIW.) (And I also completely understand the PCF's position against immigration driving down wages/conditions; something that's also not as unfamiliar to the US, in its labor history [and labor present], as you might think.)
A movie showing the high-rises were not meant specifically for immigrants, an improvement of very bad housing conditions since they were replacing slums. Of course, it was not as rosy as planned and Godard has a point against consumerism. Nothing to do with the banlieue problems nowadays though; Glorious Thirties problems.
Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.
Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2016, 02:12:20 PM
Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.
Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. :hmm:
Poles are not oppressed.
Quote from: The Brain on May 22, 2016, 04:29:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2016, 02:12:20 PM
Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.
Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. :hmm:
Poles are not oppressed.
And too dumb to know how to use explosives.
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2016, 02:12:20 PM
Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.
Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. :hmm:
Poland no longer has a large minority of second class citizens ultimately from the middle east. For some reason.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 23, 2016, 12:28:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 22, 2016, 02:12:20 PM
Poland has shitty high-rise buildings in suburbs inhabited by people earning minimum wage and/or unemployed.
Yet noone blows up the subway or shoots up concert halls. I wonder why. :hmm:
Poland no longer has a large minority of second class citizens ultimately from the middle east. For some reason.
I do hope the French can protect themselves without a need for a genocide.
A piece on continent wide movement to the right:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/22/world/europe/europe-right-wing-austria-hungary.html
It's just a jump to the left.
Quote from: Zanza on May 24, 2016, 01:19:46 PM
A piece on continent wide movement to the right:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/22/world/europe/europe-right-wing-austria-hungary.html
just glancing at the map, things don't seem that crazy. lots of the countries with current right-wing presence already had roughly similar right-wing tendencies at some point in time. countries like Czech/germany... eh, imo too early/small enough difference to tell if it's permanent. sweden,* finland, maybe britain are worrisome.
*black immigrant swede rape jokes have gone on for years and years, so I wonder why sweden only now slightly shifts right. :hmm:
The established parties in Sweden are a freak show, so small wonder an alternative appeared. It's even more wackadoodle but whatchagonnado.
Yeah I mean, Hungary drifting to the far right... When was it NOT dritfing toward it (or gone full far right)? Ah that's right, when the communists killed everyone who was open about so drifting.
QuoteLondon mayor plans negative body image advert ban on Tube, buses and trains
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36516378 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36516378)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdTGZBmL.jpg&hash=a8e65951eeadb2b82bc4d50dcf257cebacbe44ab)
Why is that in the immigration thread?
Continuation of a discussion on him a few pages back.
Quote from: Legbiter on June 14, 2016, 08:17:37 AM
QuoteLondon mayor plans negative body image advert ban on Tube, buses and trains
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36516378 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36516378)
Well, to be fair, there isn't really that much difference these days between views of radical islamists and third wave feminists, so he could be coming at it from either angle. :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecJUqhm2g08
Good.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 14, 2016, 01:37:40 PM
Good.
Seems rather arbitrary. How are advertisers supposed to know if their advert satisfies this completely arbitrary and bizarre requirement? Make sure they bribe the right officials probably.
Quote from: Martinus on June 14, 2016, 01:19:57 PMWell, to be fair, there isn't really that much difference these days between views of radical islamists and third wave feminists, so he could be coming at it from either angle. :P
Yes. The progressive left and Islam is a match made in heaven apparently. What a time to be alive, reality is more Houellebecq than the man himself.
Quote from: Solmyr on May 18, 2016, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 18, 2016, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on May 18, 2016, 02:06:25 PM
I'm all for killing jihadists, but who exactly should we exterminate? Just the actual jihadists fighting for Daesh? Their families? The imams whose speeches inspire them? Anyone who ever listens to Islamist ideology and does not immediately disagree? Some of these options are pretty Hitler. And of course, the war on terror has worked SO WELL.
Jihadists should be the only targets, though some collateral damage is inevitable.
Aren't they already? Clearly, it is not working so well since terrorism is still happening and people keep joining their ranks.
I would contest that conclusion.
How do you know it is "not working"?
I don't get the arbitrariness here. TFL provides advertising space. They've got a publicly available policy which lists their standards. The mayor's added one which was in his manifesto and that of every other Labour party candidate.
And I had no idea this was a Muslim issue because I just remember every girl I know (and most guys too) were passed off about this issue when that ad ran last year.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 14, 2016, 02:45:39 PM
I don't get the arbitrariness here.
What is the standard for 'body positive' vs 'body negative'?
QuoteTFL provides advertising space. They've got a publicly available policy which lists their standards. The mayor's added one which was in his manifesto and that of every other Labour party candidate.
So? The standards should be clear and consistent. 'Body negative' is not a standard. It is an arbitrary emotional reaction that some might have and others might not. Arbitrary rules are made to be abused. It is unreasonable to force advertisers to risk money with such an arbitrary law.
QuoteAnd I had no idea this was a Muslim issue because I just remember every girl I know (and most guys too) were passed off about this issue when that ad ran last year.
Every single girl you know flips out at diet supplements and gym ads? I don't believe you.
Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2016, 02:58:35 PM
So? The standards should be clear and consistent. 'Body negative' is not a standard. It is an arbitrary emotional reaction that some might have and others might not. Arbitrary rules are made to be abused. It is unreasonable to force advertisers to risk money with such an arbitrary law.
TfL isn't the only place one can advertise. Surely the new steering body would tell advertisers whether or not they would accept a proposed ad run before they actually paid to rent the space (though clearly not before they'd already created an ad).
Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2016, 03:03:36 PM
(though clearly not before they'd already created an ad).
Which is expensive.
Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2016, 03:04:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2016, 03:03:36 PM
(though clearly not before they'd already created an ad).
Which is expensive.
Well sucks to be them. Not sure why we should cry about that.
Side note, I don't really have much of an issue with the ad people complained about.
I just think it is a bit regressive and regrettable but ultimately hey I don't live there.
Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2016, 03:47:40 PM
I just think it is a bit regressive and regrettable but ultimately hey I don't live there.
That those who own an advertising space can control what is put there?
Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2016, 03:54:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2016, 03:47:40 PM
I just think it is a bit regressive and regrettable but ultimately hey I don't live there.
That those who own an advertising space can control what is put there?
What? Oh God I have been getting this shit from Sheilbh lately. No I don't think laws should be passed and the goosestepping gestapo be sent out to enforce my will. I simply disagree with how they are exercising their control. Just because I disagree with somebody does not mean I want them stopped by force or some shit for Godsake. Where is this coming from? Do I usually demand that kind of thing?
Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2016, 03:57:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2016, 03:54:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2016, 03:47:40 PM
I just think it is a bit regressive and regrettable but ultimately hey I don't live there.
That those who own an advertising space can control what is put there?
What? Oh God I have been getting this shit from Sheilbh lately. No I don't think laws should be passed and the goosestepping gestapo be sent out to enforce my will. I simply disagree with how they are exercising their control. Just because I disagree with somebody does not mean I want them stopped by force or some shit for Godsake. Where is this coming from? Do I usually demand that kind of thing?
I was asking you what is regressive and regrettable. I don't see why those who own advertising space deciding what can be advertised on their space is an issue. The only problematic thing that I can see is that the gov't happens to be said owners.
It IS highly arbitrary because it seems like the rule is totally up to the ruling person's personal interpretation and opinion.
Which YES means that any advert showing a non-fat human body will be subject for censorship and such will have to bribe its way through.
then again the mayor is, I guess, free to decrease advertisement income over serious issues like attractive females being shown on pictures, and fill up the money-hole with taxpayer money. Important societal issues worth it!
Quote from: Tamas on June 14, 2016, 04:11:50 PM
It IS highly arbitrary because it seems like the rule is totally up to the ruling person's personal interpretation and opinion.
Which YES means that any advert showing a non-fat human body will be subject for censorship and such will have to bribe its way through.
This isn't Hungary. :huh:
If punishing the slut/controlling female sexuality makes people feel like big men/women then good for them.
Quote from: The Brain on June 14, 2016, 04:49:02 PM
If punishing the slut/controlling female sexuality makes people feel like big men/women then good for them.
I think they are punishing the photoshop. :secret:
Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2016, 04:49:40 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 14, 2016, 04:49:02 PM
If punishing the slut/controlling female sexuality makes people feel like big men/women then good for them.
I think they are punishing the photoshop. :secret:
Stop that.
Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2016, 04:42:04 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 14, 2016, 04:11:50 PM
It IS highly arbitrary because it seems like the rule is totally up to the ruling person's personal interpretation and opinion.
Which YES means that any advert showing a non-fat human body will be subject for censorship and such will have to bribe its way through.
This isn't Hungary. :huh:
Yeah power is never abused elsewhere.
Quote from: The Brain on June 14, 2016, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2016, 04:49:40 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 14, 2016, 04:49:02 PM
If punishing the slut/controlling female sexuality makes people feel like big men/women then good for them.
I think they are punishing the photoshop. :secret:
Stop that.
Make me. :perv:
Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2016, 02:58:35 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 14, 2016, 02:45:39 PM
I don't get the arbitrariness here.
What is the standard for 'body positive' vs 'body negative'?
The issue isn't the body. The issue was the tag line 'Are you beach body ready?' There were posters of bikini-clad women last year that didn't attract that attention, there still are. Those posters will be fine because they're advertising holidays, clothes, perfumes, whatever - they're not suggesting that you should have that type body.
Though for what it's worth the Advertising Standards Agency (which is totally different) does uphold complaints on 'unhealthily underweight' models in adverts:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jun/03/yves-saint-laurent-ad-ban-underweight-model
QuoteSo? The standards should be clear and consistent. 'Body negative' is not a standard. It is an arbitrary emotional reaction that some might have and others might not. Arbitrary rules are made to be abused. It is unreasonable to force advertisers to risk money with such an arbitrary law.
'Body negative' isn't the issue. It's whether the ad is promoting ('Are you beach body ready?') an unhealthy or unrealistic body image. The other point I'd make about that is that I think there might be more tolerance for this ad if it was for a gym, or to eat less - but it was for protein shakes.
Quote
Every single girl you know flips out at diet supplements and gym ads? I don't believe you.
No, over this advert. Genuinely I remember being in the pub - it was in the news at the time - and one girl saying about the 'fucking beach body ready' advert and every girl was loud and angry about it :lol:
And my female friends are, none of them, overweight.
QuoteTfL isn't the only place one can advertise. Surely the new steering body would tell advertisers whether or not they would accept a proposed ad run before they actually paid to rent the space (though clearly not before they'd already created an ad).
Yeah. I mean TFL outsource their advertising to a couple of big agencies who sell the space. I imagine other agencies would liaise with a potential big deal to check things like that - just like they would if they were spending their clients' money in the Sun or on ITV.
QuoteOh God I have been getting this shit from Sheilbh lately.
Whaaat!?
Oh. Well, look V, if you come out in favour of post-modern architecture you know what's going to happen :ultra:
QuoteIt IS highly arbitrary because it seems like the rule is totally up to the ruling person's personal interpretation and opinion.
There's a private sector firm that is selling advertising space for TFL - their client. They've got a policy they've got to adhere too and in addition to all the other stuff that was already in there (no politics, no controversial topics etc) there's now a new standard. It's no more arbitrary than any other commercial deal. Chances are if people are kicking up a fuss with it the board of TFL will make a decision.
The complaints about the thing last year were to the ASA which is the regulator and they allowed the advert - which is why Labour candidates were saying they'd change the TFL policy.
QuoteWhich YES means that any advert showing a non-fat human body will be subject for censorship and such will have to bribe its way through.
No it isn't. I remember the ads last year which showed a lad in swimming shorts and a girl in a bikini stepping off the tube and onto the beach. That didn't cause any fuss - it would still be allowed. The Jean-Paul Gaultier perfume ads would still be allowed. The H&M girls cavorting in bikinis advert would still be allowed. The issue was not ever the body (which wasn't dangerously underweight) it was the slogan - hence the memes of, for example, Harryhausen skeletons or Millais' Ophelia with the slogan.
Quote from: Tamas on June 14, 2016, 04:55:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2016, 04:42:04 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 14, 2016, 04:11:50 PM
It IS highly arbitrary because it seems like the rule is totally up to the ruling person's personal interpretation and opinion.
Which YES means that any advert showing a non-fat human body will be subject for censorship and such will have to bribe its way through.
This isn't Hungary. :huh:
Yeah power is never abused elsewhere.
The UK's massively corrupt but we've got private sector corruption. We're a country that's very indifferent to where you or your money is from if you've got enough of it. But our public corruption scandals are really pretty pathetic.
Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2016, 04:03:10 PM
The only problematic thing that I can see is that the gov't happens to be said owners.
Yes. If this was something some puritanical billboard owner decided it would not be news. But instead this is the organization that is supposed to regulate what the rest of us do. Granted it is a municipality, but a pretty important one.
QuoteThe issue isn't the body. The issue was the tag line 'Are you beach body ready?' There were posters of bikini-clad women last year that didn't attract that attention, there still are. Those posters will be fine because they're advertising holidays, clothes, perfumes, whatever - they're not suggesting that you should have that type body.
Right. But that could be done in many fitness/supplement type ads.
QuoteThough for what it's worth the Advertising Standards Agency (which is totally different) does uphold complaints on 'unhealthily underweight' models in adverts:
Fair enough. But that woman does not strike me as unhealthily underweight, you can clearly see she has a tummy. But I guess she is right there on the line.
QuoteBody negative' isn't the issue. It's whether the ad is promoting ('Are you beach body ready?') an unhealthy or unrealistic body image. The other point I'd make about that is that I think there might be more tolerance for this ad if it was for a gym, or to eat less - but it was for protein shakes.
:hmm: That seems weird to me.
QuoteNo, over this advert. Genuinely I remember being in the pub - it was in the news at the time - and one girl saying about the 'fucking beach body ready' advert and every girl was loud and angry about it
Well I can certainly see that being annoying. But that seems to contradict what you said before: that ad could have easily been for a gym saying 'are you beach body ready?'
QuoteWhaaat!?
Oh. Well, look V, if you come out in favour of post-modern architecture you know what's going to happen
From the Gay Spa thread thing. After I criticized how some people were exercising their right to petition and you countered by saying they have the right to petition. Of course they have the right to petition I wasn't demanding that be taken away :lol:
And I wouldn't be caught dead in a post-modern architectured building!
By the way I watched those Jonathan Meade videos and man that guy is kind of a nutter isn't he? Still really interesting. Italy definitely had the most stylish totalitarianism.
Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2016, 06:18:18 PM
By the way I watched those Jonathan Meade videos and man that guy is kind of a nutter isn't he? Still really interesting. Italy definitely had the most stylish totalitarianism.
Hope you enjoyed :Embarrass:
I love his style. It's very eccentric, but normally dense with ideas and argument which I love.
As I say I wish Marti had discovered him instead of Milo because he's a far better provocateur - his ones on the Nazis and Stalin are probably his best.
Agreed. It's right. Italy's is the only totalitarian architecture that has an afterlife.
Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2016, 06:08:50 PM
Right. But that could be done in many fitness/supplement type ads.
Yeah. I think they're quite careful how they do it though. It's about it being fun, or macho (especially in the City), or unlocking the better you or whatever else. It's not implying anything like: to enjoy your holiday you should look like this you drunken, slobbering mess (I may have taken this advert personally).
QuoteWell I can certainly see that being annoying. But that seems to contradict what you said before: that ad could have easily been for a gym saying 'are you beach body ready?'
Maybe for some of them. One of those girls does marathons in under three and a half hours and isn't convinced fat people should be allowed to use the NHS. Even she was outraged :P
It was a shit ad that offended many people.
But is a ban really necessary?
Most ads are shit. I think the ones that most irritate me are the car ads at the cinema. Drive another tedious generic box and get FREEDOM and women...........bah!!
Perhaps the ads we should ban are the ones we like?
I mean it's not a ban and I think it's fair for TFL to be choosy about their adverts. Ultimately they are a public body so in my view should steer clear (as their policies already have) of anything controversial.
But more importantly it's not like the TV or a newspaper. I can't just change channel or turn over. I have to quietly stew facing that advert every day on my bloody commute - at 730 in the morning when anyone exhorting me to be my best self can fuck right off and at the end of the day chowing down on a discounted Tesco sandwich <_<
My favourites are the posters for shows and exhibitions, informative and often attractive.
You are right though, I got heartily sick of that ad and don't even live in London.
I'm always a big fan of the more niche travel destinations showing their wares. There are some lovely adverts by the North Cypriot Tourist Board at the minute :lol:
No one wants to see porkers up on a billboard. :mad:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-8sMBcDhPZzk%2FTdpxGXsF4pI%2FAAAAAAAANhI%2FkPEdACU-ynM%2Fs1600%2FInterbestMan4.jpg&hash=fd0971019e20b3e12c08ec9a898cb93272ab2b11)
You have to be quite... emotionally brittle to get offended by the beach body ad. Many ads are retarded, insane, take a huge dump on my core values etc, but that doesn't mean I feel offended by them or commute in a bitter rage. People need to chillax.
Also it's extra retarded to be upset about weight stuff. Weight is equal opprtunity. It doesn't matter if you're beautiful, ugly, short, tall, educated, uneducated, being thin is something you can always choose to be.
Our silly justice minister is thinking about a law to limit ads "which reduce humans to sexual objects". Whatever that may mean.
I think we live in fucked up times when not being obese is considered offensive. I mean, I kinda understand garbon on this - he is fat himself - but still it's a bit too much.
Germans being racist again :weep:
QuoteNo more polygamy & underage wives for immigrants, says German minister
German Justice Minister Heiko Maas has promised to crackdown on the growing problem of multiple, forced, and underage marriages that immigrants from developing countries are bringing with them – but which have often been ignored by authorities.
"No one who comes to us has the right to put their cultural roots or their religious beliefs above our laws," the politician from the center-left SPD party told Bild newspaper on Tuesday.
The state of Bavaria alone has been able to confirm 550 cases of brides aged under 18, and 161 under 16, living among the asylum seekers that have arrived in the recent migrant wave, and similar statistics have been reported throughout Germany, according to Bild.
A government report from 2012 stated that more than half of all Muslim marriages in Germany involved a bride who was under 18.
Spiegel reported the same year that as many as 30 percent of Arab men had multiple wives.
"Everyone must abide by rules and laws, whether they grew up here or are new," said Maas.
Local authorities frequently find ways to indulge and even support such practices. For example, the inheritance of one man is often distributed among his official and unofficial wives.
For other issues, Muslims often appeal to Sharia arbitrators, who bypass official institutions to rule according to Islamic scripture.
In the sphere of marriage, they have been helped by a 2009 law that allows religious marriages to be conducted without accompanying state registration, effectively giving the green light to a whole spectrum of semi-legal practices.
"No multiple marriages will be allowed to be recognized in Germany," insisted Maas.
However, the problem has been complicated by the influx of refugees, with more than 1.1 million arriving just last year. Although the torrent of newcomers has receded, more than 500,000 relatives of Syrian refugees are expected to join their families in Germany this year, which will present its own set of problems.
"I know a few men with many wives," Berlin Imam Abdul Adhim Kamouss admitted to Deutsche Welle. "The question is what does Maas want to do? I can understand it if he says that people who live here in Germany, and grew up here, cannot marry more than one woman – that is the law – but what about the people who come here and already have more than one wife? What are you supposed to do with those marriages?"
An interesting question at the end. What should Germans do about it? I have some ideas but wonder what people here think.
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 02:40:32 AM
Germans being racist again :weep:
QuoteNo more polygamy & underage wives for immigrants, says German minister
German Justice Minister Heiko Maas has promised to crackdown on the growing problem of multiple, forced, and underage marriages that immigrants from developing countries are bringing with them – but which have often been ignored by authorities.
"No one who comes to us has the right to put their cultural roots or their religious beliefs above our laws," the politician from the center-left SPD party told Bild newspaper on Tuesday.
The state of Bavaria alone has been able to confirm 550 cases of brides aged under 18, and 161 under 16, living among the asylum seekers that have arrived in the recent migrant wave, and similar statistics have been reported throughout Germany, according to Bild.
A government report from 2012 stated that more than half of all Muslim marriages in Germany involved a bride who was under 18.
Spiegel reported the same year that as many as 30 percent of Arab men had multiple wives.
"Everyone must abide by rules and laws, whether they grew up here or are new," said Maas.
Local authorities frequently find ways to indulge and even support such practices. For example, the inheritance of one man is often distributed among his official and unofficial wives.
For other issues, Muslims often appeal to Sharia arbitrators, who bypass official institutions to rule according to Islamic scripture.
In the sphere of marriage, they have been helped by a 2009 law that allows religious marriages to be conducted without accompanying state registration, effectively giving the green light to a whole spectrum of semi-legal practices.
"No multiple marriages will be allowed to be recognized in Germany," insisted Maas.
However, the problem has been complicated by the influx of refugees, with more than 1.1 million arriving just last year. Although the torrent of newcomers has receded, more than 500,000 relatives of Syrian refugees are expected to join their families in Germany this year, which will present its own set of problems.
"I know a few men with many wives," Berlin Imam Abdul Adhim Kamouss admitted to Deutsche Welle. "The question is what does Maas want to do? I can understand it if he says that people who live here in Germany, and grew up here, cannot marry more than one woman – that is the law – but what about the people who come here and already have more than one wife? What are you supposed to do with those marriages?"
I have some ideas
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F03559%2Faushwitz_3559929b.jpg&hash=838f707c0dd099d24e48c73a8112a1f555a892fb)
My idea was not to let them in if they can't live by our rules. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 03:04:24 AM
My idea was not to let them in if they can't live by our rules. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: I'm sure it was.
Same debate has started here because of London's mayor and this is being used as an example. It's NSFW and on the city buses in Copenhagen.
http://www.skrivunder.net/uploads/images/Nygart_Movia_bryster_bus_Facebook1.png
It's a commercial for plastic surgery and is titled "New Breasts?". Well, it upset a lot of people. :P
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 02:40:32 AM
Germans being racist again :weep:
QuoteNo more polygamy & underage wives for immigrants, says German minister
German Justice Minister Heiko Maas has promised to crackdown on the growing problem of multiple, forced, and underage marriages that immigrants from developing countries are bringing with them – but which have often been ignored by authorities.
"No one who comes to us has the right to put their cultural roots or their religious beliefs above our laws," the politician from the center-left SPD party told Bild newspaper on Tuesday.
The state of Bavaria alone has been able to confirm 550 cases of brides aged under 18, and 161 under 16, living among the asylum seekers that have arrived in the recent migrant wave, and similar statistics have been reported throughout Germany, according to Bild.
A government report from 2012 stated that more than half of all Muslim marriages in Germany involved a bride who was under 18.
Spiegel reported the same year that as many as 30 percent of Arab men had multiple wives.
"Everyone must abide by rules and laws, whether they grew up here or are new," said Maas.
Local authorities frequently find ways to indulge and even support such practices. For example, the inheritance of one man is often distributed among his official and unofficial wives.
For other issues, Muslims often appeal to Sharia arbitrators, who bypass official institutions to rule according to Islamic scripture.
In the sphere of marriage, they have been helped by a 2009 law that allows religious marriages to be conducted without accompanying state registration, effectively giving the green light to a whole spectrum of semi-legal practices.
"No multiple marriages will be allowed to be recognized in Germany," insisted Maas.
However, the problem has been complicated by the influx of refugees, with more than 1.1 million arriving just last year. Although the torrent of newcomers has receded, more than 500,000 relatives of Syrian refugees are expected to join their families in Germany this year, which will present its own set of problems.
"I know a few men with many wives," Berlin Imam Abdul Adhim Kamouss admitted to Deutsche Welle. "The question is what does Maas want to do? I can understand it if he says that people who live here in Germany, and grew up here, cannot marry more than one woman – that is the law – but what about the people who come here and already have more than one wife? What are you supposed to do with those marriages?"
An interesting question at the end. What should Germans do about it? I have some ideas but wonder what people here think.
Denmark removed 8 child brides from their husbands last year and the result was that the kids self-harmed and threatened to commit suicide, now we're changing the rules and will probably allow underage marriage on a case-to-case basis.
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 04:05:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 02:40:32 AM
Germans being racist again :weep:
QuoteNo more polygamy & underage wives for immigrants, says German minister
German Justice Minister Heiko Maas has promised to crackdown on the growing problem of multiple, forced, and underage marriages that immigrants from developing countries are bringing with them – but which have often been ignored by authorities.
"No one who comes to us has the right to put their cultural roots or their religious beliefs above our laws," the politician from the center-left SPD party told Bild newspaper on Tuesday.
The state of Bavaria alone has been able to confirm 550 cases of brides aged under 18, and 161 under 16, living among the asylum seekers that have arrived in the recent migrant wave, and similar statistics have been reported throughout Germany, according to Bild.
A government report from 2012 stated that more than half of all Muslim marriages in Germany involved a bride who was under 18.
Spiegel reported the same year that as many as 30 percent of Arab men had multiple wives.
"Everyone must abide by rules and laws, whether they grew up here or are new," said Maas.
Local authorities frequently find ways to indulge and even support such practices. For example, the inheritance of one man is often distributed among his official and unofficial wives.
For other issues, Muslims often appeal to Sharia arbitrators, who bypass official institutions to rule according to Islamic scripture.
In the sphere of marriage, they have been helped by a 2009 law that allows religious marriages to be conducted without accompanying state registration, effectively giving the green light to a whole spectrum of semi-legal practices.
"No multiple marriages will be allowed to be recognized in Germany," insisted Maas.
However, the problem has been complicated by the influx of refugees, with more than 1.1 million arriving just last year. Although the torrent of newcomers has receded, more than 500,000 relatives of Syrian refugees are expected to join their families in Germany this year, which will present its own set of problems.
"I know a few men with many wives," Berlin Imam Abdul Adhim Kamouss admitted to Deutsche Welle. "The question is what does Maas want to do? I can understand it if he says that people who live here in Germany, and grew up here, cannot marry more than one woman – that is the law – but what about the people who come here and already have more than one wife? What are you supposed to do with those marriages?"
An interesting question at the end. What should Germans do about it? I have some ideas but wonder what people here think.
Denmark removed 8 child brides from their husbands last year and the result was that the kids self-harmed and threatened to commit suicide, now we're changing the rules and will probably allow underage marriage on a case-to-case basis.
Doesn't that seem backwards? It seems like these children need therapy.
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2016, 04:11:49 AM
Doesn't that seem backwards? It seems like these children need therapy.
It was a law made to appease the right wingers, it wasn't funded. Proper therapy in immigration camps is impossible, there are attached therapists that immigrants can speak to but there's like a 6 month waiting list.
And the right wingers are not going to accept spending more money on immigrants.
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 04:16:17 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2016, 04:11:49 AM
Doesn't that seem backwards? It seems like these children need therapy.
It was a law made to appease the right wingers, it wasn't funded. Proper therapy in immigration camps is impossible, there are attached therapists that immigrants can speak to but there's like a 6 month waiting list.
And the right wingers are not going to accept spending more money on immigrants.
I like this left-wing spin. It's always the right-wingers' fault! :lmfao:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 15, 2016, 06:02:22 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 04:16:17 AM
Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2016, 04:11:49 AM
Doesn't that seem backwards? It seems like these children need therapy.
It was a law made to appease the right wingers, it wasn't funded. Proper therapy in immigration camps is impossible, there are attached therapists that immigrants can speak to but there's like a 6 month waiting list.
And the right wingers are not going to accept spending more money on immigrants.
I like this left-wing spin. It's always the right-wingers fault! :lmfao:
I simply stated the facts. :sleep:
Isn't it a huge compromise on your values though? How does it work? Does a Danish citizen only need to convert to Islam to be able to marry a child, or does he have to relinguish his citizenship and apply for asylum?
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 04:05:57 AM
Denmark removed 8 child brides from their husbands last year and the result was that the kids self-harmed and threatened to commit suicide, now we're changing the rules and will probably allow underage marriage on a case-to-case basis.
Wow. Just wow. I simply have no words. So do you also allow pedophiles to continue fucking their victims if victims "love" them?
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:26:03 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 04:05:57 AM
Denmark removed 8 child brides from their husbands last year and the result was that the kids self-harmed and threatened to commit suicide, now we're changing the rules and will probably allow underage marriage on a case-to-case basis.
Wow. Just wow.
Yes, that does seem like a very stupid reaction on their part. On the face of it, seems to show just how emotionally unprepared children are to be married.
Also, why weren't the husbands put in jail?
Right, okay, so when I said allow underage marriage I meant if the couple came here having been already married
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:27:48 AM
Also, why weren't the husbands put in jail?
You have to commit a crime to be put in jail here.
Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2016, 06:27:38 AM
Yes, that does seem like a very stupid reaction on their part. On the face of it, seems to show just how emotionally unprepared children are to be married.
Probably, but possibly also because they grew up in a culture and with a religion that is so different from ours in this aspect. Leaving your husband would be a crime against Allah and having no husband would put you in a bad spot culturally. It's not difficult to imagine this would upset you if that's all you know.
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:34:07 AM
Right, okay, so when I said allow underage marriage I meant if the couple came here having been already married
Keep going :lmfao: Insh'Allah all will work out in the end. :)
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 15, 2016, 06:42:16 AM
Keep going :lmfao: Insh'Allah all will work out in the end. :)
Yeah, keep using that smiley. Makes you look real superior.
Your solution would be separate the two, I can agree we shouldn't care much about the husband, but what would you do with the girl? And what if the girl was already pregnant?
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:35:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:27:48 AM
Also, why weren't the husbands put in jail?
You have to commit a crime to be put in jail here.
Isn't pedophilia a crime in Denmark? :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:49:17 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:35:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:27:48 AM
Also, why weren't the husbands put in jail?
You have to commit a crime to be put in jail here.
Isn't pedophilia a crime in Denmark? :hmm:
Yes, but the age of consent is 15. :hmm:
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:40:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2016, 06:27:38 AM
Yes, that does seem like a very stupid reaction on their part. On the face of it, seems to show just how emotionally unprepared children are to be married.
Probably, but possibly also because they grew up in a culture and with a religion that is so different from ours in this aspect. Leaving your husband would be a crime against Allah and having no husband would put you in a bad spot culturally. It's not difficult to imagine this would upset you if that's all you know.
I thought we all recognised that, given that minors cannot give informed consents, the parents (and if they are unfit, the government/proper authorities) can take decisions for their benefit, even if they personally disagree. That's why we penalise pedophilia even if "the kid wanted it", for example. :huh:
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:50:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:49:17 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:35:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:27:48 AM
Also, why weren't the husbands put in jail?
You have to commit a crime to be put in jail here.
Isn't pedophilia a crime in Denmark? :hmm:
Yes, but the age of consent is 15. :hmm:
So how old were the child brides?
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:49:02 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 15, 2016, 06:42:16 AM
Keep going :lmfao: Insh'Allah all will work out in the end. :)
Yeah, keep using that smiley. Makes you look real superior.
Your solution would be separate the two, I can agree we shouldn't care much about the husband, but what would you do with the girl? And what if the girl was already pregnant?
Do not separate them, send them back to their original country, it's not the husband is really Danish judging by his "values". Besides, right-winger controlled Denmark where are they going to be oppressed anyways by infidels is obviously not a solution.
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:51:30 AM
I thought we all recognised that, given that minors cannot give informed consents, the parents (and if they are unfit, the government/proper authorities) can take decisions for their benefit, even if they personally disagree. That's why we penalise pedophilia even if "the kid wanted it", for example. :huh:
Well, the government is in trouble here that's the whole thing. On one hand it's unacceptable according to Danish law, on the other hand there is really nothing in place to take care of suicidal asylum seeking girls. We just have to accept one of these and that's what the lawmakers are discussing right now.
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:51:56 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:50:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:49:17 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:35:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:27:48 AM
Also, why weren't the husbands put in jail?
You have to commit a crime to be put in jail here.
Isn't pedophilia a crime in Denmark? :hmm:
Yes, but the age of consent is 15. :hmm:
So how old were the child brides?
I don't know, below 18. I'm sure there's also instances of us not knowing their age and them not saying.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 15, 2016, 06:56:03 AM
Do not separate them, send them back to their original country, it's not the husband is really Danish judging by his "values". Besides, right-winger controlled Denmark where are they going to be oppressed anyways by infidels is obviously not a solution.
According to the law of the land that is not a possible solution.
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:58:04 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 15, 2016, 06:56:03 AM
Do not separate them, send them back to their original country, it's not the husband is really Danish judging by his "values". Besides, right-winger controlled Denmark where are they going to be oppressed anyways by infidels is obviously not a solution.
According to the law of the land that is not a possible solution.
Then change the law.
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:57:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:51:56 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:50:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:49:17 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:35:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:27:48 AM
Also, why weren't the husbands put in jail?
You have to commit a crime to be put in jail here.
Isn't pedophilia a crime in Denmark? :hmm:
Yes, but the age of consent is 15. :hmm:
So how old were the child brides?
I don't know, below 18. I'm sure there's also instances of us not knowing their age and them not saying.
Is 18 the age at which one can legally get married in Denmark? In most American states, you can get married at 16. If a 17 year old American and their 16 year old spouse travelled to Denmark, could they expect the state to forcibly separate them if they're not Muslims?
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:57:34 AM
I don't know, below 18. I'm sure there's also instances of us not knowing their age and them not saying.
Wouldn't determining whether they are above or below the age of consent be, you know, a priority for the law enforcement?
If police busted the house of Roman Polanski, for example, and there were a bunch of teenage girls being fucked by him there, do you really think the appropriate conclusion would be for the police to withdraw saying "we, we don't know if they were below the age of consent. Many of them were not saying."
I mean, what the fuck.
Quote from: dps on June 15, 2016, 07:00:53 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:57:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:51:56 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:50:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:49:17 AM
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 06:35:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 06:27:48 AM
Also, why weren't the husbands put in jail?
You have to commit a crime to be put in jail here.
Isn't pedophilia a crime in Denmark? :hmm:
Yes, but the age of consent is 15. :hmm:
So how old were the child brides?
I don't know, below 18. I'm sure there's also instances of us not knowing their age and them not saying.
Is 18 the age at which one can legally get married in Denmark? In most American states, you can get married at 16. If a 17 year old American and their 16 year old spouse travelled to Denmark, could they expect the state to forcibly separate them if they're not Muslims?
Yeah, but that's not the point of my question - my point is that Liep seems to be unable to answer whether they were above or below the age where sex and/or marriage is allowed. Now it could be that he is simply uninformed (and strangely uninterested) in what to me would be a crucial question, but the Danish police checked this, concluded that everybody was above the relevant age, and saw this as something that is legal and thus does not warrant an intervention. It would have been way way more worrying if the Danish police did not actually check it, though, and simply concluded they can't be bothered because it's a "different culture".
But, based on the story of hundreds of rapes of little girls in the UK by Pakistani immigrants, I fear this might have indeed been the case.
Quote from: dps on June 15, 2016, 07:00:53 AM
Is 18 the age at which one can legally get married in Denmark? In most American states, you can get married at 16. If a 17 year old American and their 16 year old spouse travelled to Denmark, could they expect the state to forcibly separate them if they're not Muslims?
18 unless you can get a dispensation. Dispensation can be granted down to 15 if the girl is pregnant. For couples already married Denmark accepts it if the origin country accepts it and both parties consented and were above 15 at the time of marriage.
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 07:06:18 AM
Quote from: dps on June 15, 2016, 07:00:53 AM
Is 18 the age at which one can legally get married in Denmark? In most American states, you can get married at 16. If a 17 year old American and their 16 year old spouse travelled to Denmark, could they expect the state to forcibly separate them if they're not Muslims?
18 unless you can get a dispensation. Dispensation can be granted down to 15 if the girl is pregnant. For couples already married Denmark accepts it if the origin country accepts it and both parties consented and were above 15 at the time of marriage.
Ok, so we have clear law on this. What is unclear to me is whether it was enforced or not. The argument that the victim in this case may have felt bad about law being enforced is kinda irrelevant - for the same reason, we do not let pedophiles rape their victims even if the victims "like it".
I was responding to his statement the while he didn't know the age of the girls involved, they were under 18, which implied that under 18 is considered underage for marriage in Denmark, and if that is the case, I was curious as to how Denmark handles people under that age who are legally married in their home countries if they come to Denmark under more "normal" circumstances, i.e., not as part of a mass movement of refugees.
EDIT: Ah, Ok, answered while I was typing this post.
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 07:08:11 AM
Ok, so we have clear law on this. What is unclear to me is whether it was enforced or not. The argument that the victim in this case may have felt bad about law being enforced is kinda irrelevant - for the same reason, we do not let pedophiles rape their victims even if the victims "like it".
It wasn't enforced, the couples were granted private quaters in the camps and then they weren't because of the new law. When the girls were removed however they began behaving like I've already written. That was beyond the capabilites of the camps and now the question is which is the lesser evil. Neither is preferable.
I've read the cases now Mart and there are many different examples, one fx, a 15 year old girl was removed from her 17 year old husband (marriage was before age of 15 though), one pregnant 14 year girl was removed from her 24 year old husband. Two different cases here and two different "best" solutions.
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 07:27:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 07:08:11 AM
Ok, so we have clear law on this. What is unclear to me is whether it was enforced or not. The argument that the victim in this case may have felt bad about law being enforced is kinda irrelevant - for the same reason, we do not let pedophiles rape their victims even if the victims "like it".
It wasn't enforced, the couples were granted private quaters in the camps and then they weren't because of the new law. When the girls were removed however they began behaving like I've already written. That was beyond the capabilites of the camps and now the question is which is the lesser evil. Neither is preferable.
I've read the cases now Mart and there are many different examples, one fx, a 15 year old girl was removed from her 17 year old husband (marriage was before age of 15 though), one pregnant 14 year girl was removed from her 24 year old husband. Two different cases here and two different "best" solutions.
So at least in the case of the pregnant 14 year old girl with a 24 year old husband, the husband should have been charged and jailed - that's why I asked if anyone was. Do you agree?
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 07:28:48 AM
So at least in the case of the pregnant 14 year old girl with a 24 year old husband, the husband should have been charged and jailed - that's why I asked if anyone was. Do you agree?
He has been charged for paedophilia in that case. I can't find any information about what happened later.
Well, ok. :P
The way you originally presented it, it sounded much worse than it actually happened. :D
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 07:35:22 AM
Well, ok. :P
The way you originally presented it, it sounded much worse than it actually happened. :D
That was an extreme case and probably what made the politician react the way they did. What I was mainly talking about was cases where it did more damage removing the wives even if the marriage happened before the age of 15.
Another case is a 17 year old girl with two children married to a 25 year old man, I don't think separating them because there's no legal marriage is a very good solution if the girl is then left to herself. What if she is denied asylum before him and sent back alone? 18 years, two kids and no husband might not be fun in Afghanistan.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37271971
QuoteAngela Merkel's CDU suffers Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania poll blow
Angela Merkel's ruling CDU party has been beaten into third place by an anti-immigrant and anti-Islam party in elections in a north-eastern German state.
The Alternative fuer Deutschland (AfD) party took just under 21% of the vote behind the centre-left SPD's 30%.
The German chancellor's CDU was backed by only 19% of voters, its worst ever result in the state.
The vote was seen as a key test before German parliamentary elections in 2017.
Before the vote in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania, in the former East Germany, all of Germany's other parties ruled out forming a governing coalition with the AfD. But the party, formed only three years ago, is already represented in nine of Germany's 16 state parliaments.
One leading CDU politician called the result catastrophic, while another, Wolfgang Bosbach, said the arrival of hundreds of thousands of migrants without documents had "put the wind in the AfD's sails".
Analysis: By Jenny Hill, BBC Berlin correspondent
This is humiliating for Angela Merkel - not least because this was on home turf. Mrs Merkel's constituency is in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania.
This election - which was seen as a significant test ahead of next year's general election - was all about her refugee policy. For a year she's insisted 'Wir schaffen es' (we can do it) but German voters aren't convinced.
Alternative fuer Deutschland's anti immigrant and increasingly strident anti-Islam message has a powerful appeal to people concerned about integration and worried about domestic security.
It doesn't look good for Mrs Merkel. Her approval ratings are at a five-year low. But don't be tempted to write her off just yet - she has a habit of bouncing back and there is no serious contender waiting in the wings to replace her.
Under her leadership, Germany has been taking in large numbers of refugees and migrants - 1.1 million last year - and anti-immigrant feeling has increased.
The AfD, initially an anti-euro party, has enjoyed a rapid rise as the party of choice for voters dismayed by Mrs Merkel's policy.
But its political power is limited and critics accuse it of engaging in xenophobic scaremongering.
The CDU has been the junior coalition partner in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania since 2006 and is likely to remain in the governing coalition. However, its 19% in the election is its worst ever result in the state, German broadcasters said.
"The strong performance of AfD is bitter for many, for everyone in our party," said CDU secretary general Peter Tauber. "A sizeable number of people wanted to voice their displeasure and to protest. And we saw that particularly in discussions about refugees."
BBC Berlin correspondent Damien McGuinness says that following her political embarrassment, Mrs Merkel will now come under greater pressure to change her welcoming position on refugees.
Addressing supporters, local AfD leader Leif-Erik Holm said: "Perhaps this is the beginning of the end of Angela Merkel's chancellorship today."
Mrs Merkel, who is in China for the G20 summit, told Bild newspaper on Saturday: "We did not reduce benefits for anyone in Germany as a result of the aid for refugees. In fact, we actually saw social improvements in some areas.
"We took nothing away from people here. We are still achieving our big goal of maintaining and improving the quality of life in Germany."
As we discussed similar developments in Germany earlier in this thread, I'll just necro it and not start a new one.
The CDU basically just lost about 3-4%, similar to the other parties really (SPD, Left and Greens all lost a bit as well) but the result is significant as the AfD has more votes than the CDU for the first time ever. Mecklenburg - Western Pommerania is rather insignificant, it's the least densely populated state with just 2% of the population, but it's just one in a long series.
In two weeks, there are state elections in the federal state of Berlin. Let's see how that much more urban electorate will vote.
Anyway, Germany will likely have five or six parties in the next federal parliament, which is elected in September 2017. The CDU and SPD will lose compared to their last result, the AfD will surely make it to parliament and the Greens and Left will likely stagnate or have minor losses. The FDP might just be able to rejoin parliament.
That will pose an interesting situation to form a government in 2017. It could be a conservative-green government for the first time. Merkel and the top politician of the Greens openly favor that.
Greens. :x
Quote from: Liep on June 15, 2016, 07:34:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2016, 07:28:48 AM
So at least in the case of the pregnant 14 year old girl with a 24 year old husband, the husband should have been charged and jailed - that's why I asked if anyone was. Do you agree?
He has been charged for paedophilia in that case. I can't find any information about what happened later.
To get a conviction, will they have to prove that he had sex with he after arriving in Denmark, or will it be sufficient to prove he had sex with her abroad (where it might have been legal)?