EU Immigration Crisis Megathread

[Zanza]

We get each other fine zanza. I'm obviously more upset about what's happening than you. Which is kinda funny, you seem very nonplussed about the whole thing while I'm worried about Germany becoming Syria.

I am indeed not afraid of Germany becoming Syria. I think our culture, our liberal democracy and our legal system are strong enough to integrate migrants. It is a big effort, there will be problems, there will be some people that can't be integrated, but I am with Merkel on this: "Wir schaffen das!"

I don't get this angst about our countries going down the drain because of migration. Are people really believing that the archaical societies these people are fleeing from are more attractive then ours? Apparently, but I don't share this cultural pessimism and am convinced about the superiority and persuasiveness of our ways.

They're already gangraping your women out in the open streets, while the cucked media and the political elite try to censor the truth and paint anyone who disagrees as a "far-right" extremist. If that is how the elite is going to play it something tells me there's a lot more of those around.

I don't share your perception of Germany's media not reporting immigration issues. I think they report with a broad spectrum of viewpoints, a lot of them critical about the government policy or certain aspects.

There was also no media censorship about the issues in Cologne, although the police reports came slow and incomplete, which rightfully needs to be adressed.

There is also quite vocal political opposition, both in the government parties and outside. Germany is a mature democracy and policy follows these trends - maybe sometime with a time lag. But then slow and pondering is just how our system works.

[Legbiter]

I am indeed not afraid of Germany becoming Syria. I think our culture, our liberal democracy and our legal system are strong enough to integrate migrants. It is a big effort, there will be problems, there will be some people that can't be integrated, but I am with Merkel on this: "Wir schaffen das!"

I keep picturing the Krautcuck trying to lecture them on proper respect for women. 

Sorry it's not going to work. Maybe the local Stahlhelm association could.

[Zanza]

Maybe the local Stahlhelm association could.

I wasn't aware of Stahlhelm's democratic or feminist credentials.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I don't get this angst about our countries going down the drain because of migration. Are people really believing that the archaical societies these people are fleeing from are more attractive then ours? Apparently, but I don't share this cultural pessimism and am convinced about the superiority and persuasiveness of our ways.

like I said earlier: a lot of these migrants are also absolutely convinced that their way of ordering society is far superior to ours. Most aren't here because of our culture but for the money: either trough work (of we're lucky) or through wellfare.

[Tamas]

We get each other fine zanza. I'm obviously more upset about what's happening than you. Which is kinda funny, you seem very nonplussed about the whole thing while I'm worried about Germany becoming Syria.

I am indeed not afraid of Germany becoming Syria. I think our culture, our liberal democracy and our legal system are strong enough to integrate migrants. It is a big effort, there will be problems, there will be some people that can't be integrated, but I am with Merkel on this: "Wir schaffen das!"

I don't get this angst about our countries going down the drain because of migration. Are people really believing that the archaical societies these people are fleeing from are more attractive then ours? Apparently, but I don't share this cultural pessimism and am convinced about the superiority and persuasiveness of our ways.

They're already gangraping your women out in the open streets, while the cucked media and the political elite try to censor the truth and paint anyone who disagrees as a "far-right" extremist. If that is how the elite is going to play it something tells me there's a lot more of those around.

I don't share your perception of Germany's media not reporting immigration issues. I think they report with a broad spectrum of viewpoints, a lot of them critical about the government policy or certain aspects.

There was also no media censorship about the issues in Cologne, although the police reports came slow and incomplete, which rightfully needs to be adressed.

There is also quite vocal political opposition, both in the government parties and outside. Germany is a mature democracy and policy follows these trends - maybe sometime with a time lag. But then slow and pondering is just how our system works.

Zanza I respect your measured and moderate take on this but automatically assuming a desire to adopt German values is wrong. If somebody has grown up in a society where women were only marginally of more value than cattle for the past 12 thousand years, it is ENTIRELY feasible to think he will not be convinced about the wisdom of giving them the vote, or locking somebody up because of some "harmless" touching and "flirting".

[Zanza]

@crazy ivan:
You obviously know more about the hearts and minds of these migrants than I do.

But I have so much faith in our culture, our values and our societal rules that I believe they convince most people coming here no matter what their original convictions were. We need to teach it, we need to live it and where necessary enforce the rules, but I think we will be successful doing that.

[Zanza]

Zanza I respect your measured and moderate take on this but automatically assuming a desire to adopt German values is wrong. If somebody has grown up in a society where women were only marginally of more value than cattle for the past 12 thousand years, it is ENTIRELY feasible to think he will not be convinced about the wisdom of giving them the vote, or locking somebody up because of some "harmless" touching and "flirting".

Of course. And we must do everything to convince him and help and protect her. We cannot accept such behaviour and must if necessary enforce our rules.

But replacing it with the Stahlhelm view on women or other liberal concepts is really not going to help us. I feel like the Stahlhelm views are much closer to current Arab views than to our views. 

[Tamas]

@crazy ivan:
You obviously know more about the hearts and minds of these migrants than I do.

But I have so much faith in our culture, our values and our societal rules that I believe they convince most people coming here no matter what their original convictions were. We need to teach it, we need to live it and where necessary enforce the rules, but I think we will be successful doing that.

Before I moved to England I bought a book that studied the psychological process of adopting living in a new country.  It seemed a very individual process with resentment of the host culture often being a phase  (after around 6 months IIRC), and with some people struggling to ever get out of that phase.

Just to say this won't be easy.

And convinctions stay with you when you are an adult, most of the time. You just adopt to whatever laws you live under, if you must.

[Martinus]

I have now seen a theory floated around that it is not a surprise that the sexual attacks on the New Year's Eve were organised and coordinated - because they were, by the ISIS, inciting some idiots among the immigrants to do so, so this (like the terrorist attacks) radicalises the Western-Islamic divide even more. Thoughts?

[Valmy]

I have now seen a theory floated around that it is not a surprise that the sexual attacks on the New Year's Eve were organised and coordinated - because they were, by the ISIS, inciting some idiots among the immigrants to do so, so this (like the terrorist attacks) radicalises the Western-Islamic divide even more. Thoughts?

Strikes me as a conspiracy theory to me. I mean ISIS was probably happy with that outcome but just because somebody benefits from something does not mean they were behind it.

[Zanza]

I have now seen a theory floated around that it is not a surprise that the sexual attacks on the New Year's Eve were organised and coordinated - because they were, by the ISIS, inciting some idiots among the immigrants to do so, so this (like the terrorist attacks) radicalises the Western-Islamic divide even more. Thoughts?

Deep territory in my opinion.

A mob of drunk youth can commit these attacks without some nefarious mastermind in Syria telling them to. We give ISIS way too much credit if you see them behind events like this.

[Josquius]

Daesh don't even organise their bombings let alone stuff like that.

[Martinus]

That was my thinking too, but wanted to check if something is "lost in translation" (as I don't have full visibility of the incident).

[Berkut]

Zanza I respect your measured and moderate take on this but automatically assuming a desire to adopt German values is wrong. If somebody has grown up in a society where women were only marginally of more value than cattle for the past 12 thousand years, it is ENTIRELY feasible to think he will not be convinced about the wisdom of giving them the vote, or locking somebody up because of some "harmless" touching and "flirting".

I don't think it matters.

First of all, most people immigrating or fleeing aren't thinking about culture one way or the other. They don't go to another country thinking "Oh, their culture is so much better, I want to change how I live to match them" or "Oh, my culture is so much better, I shall work to subvert them to my ways!".

No, they are thinking "Eating seems a lot better than not, I think I will go over there where I get to eat".

What happens once they get there is based on the cultures involved. Cultural assimilation takes time, but it isn't something that happens consciously for the vast majority of people. And no matter what they DO think, it really doesn't matter in the long run, except at the extremes (and the vast majority are not extremists).

I am with Zanza. I believe in the power of freedom, liberty, education, equal rights, reasonable opportunity. No matter how non-western they might be when they get here, and how difficult it can be to figure out how to make it work in the short term, in the long run the western ideals have always won out. Always. 100% of the time, in some fashion. I cannot think of one single example where they have not...in the long run.

Now, there are examples where it has not gone as smoothly as one would like, but that results in assimilation not happening as quickly as we would like, NOT in the host culture being subverted.

I find it surprising how little faith actual liberals have in liberal ideals.

[Berkut]

@crazy ivan:
You obviously know more about the hearts and minds of these migrants than I do.

But I have so much faith in our culture, our values and our societal rules that I believe they convince most people coming here no matter what their original convictions were. We need to teach it, we need to live it and where necessary enforce the rules, but I think we will be successful doing that.

Before I moved to England I bought a book that studied the psychological process of adopting living in a new country.  It seemed a very individual process with resentment of the host culture often being a phase  (after around 6 months IIRC), and with some people struggling to ever get out of that phase.

Just to say this won't be easy.

And convinctions stay with you when you are an adult, most of the time. You just adopt to whatever laws you live under, if you must.

I think about the hundreds of thousands of Chinese that immigrated to the US in the 1800s. A totally alien culture, as alien as probably existed at that time.

What happened in the long run?

100% assimilation. Complete and total, and their descendants today are as American as American can be - and American culture to the extent it changed at all changed in a completely positive way. Now we have hot Chinese-American women and fucked up American-Chinese food.

The process might be messy, but the outcome is clear and a win for "our" side.