Poll
Question:
Assuming he/she wasn't fat when you married.
Option 1: Yes
votes: 30
Option 2: No
votes: 13
Option 3: I'll have a Jumbo Jack with extra ketchup, large fries and a Diet Coke
votes: 7
http://www.xojane.com/relationships/my-husband-almost-divorced-me-because-im-fat
Cliff notes:
1: Wife was only a little overweight when they married
2: Wife and husband both work on weight loss for years
3: Wife reads on the internet that it's ok to be fat, so she decides to accept it and stop trying
4: Husband disagrees and they decide to split up
In my case, no. But depending on the situation I might not scorn another dude for doing it.
Physical attraction is an important part of many relationships, so yes, I would say it is a fair reason for a divorce. It's at least a more tangible reason than simply "growing apart".
Quote from: Warspite on March 13, 2013, 03:45:10 PM
Physical attraction is an important part of many relationships, so yes, I would say it is a fair reason for a divorce. It's at least a more tangible reason than simply "growing apart".
If one or both are putting on weight, they could literally be "growing apart". :P
Quote from: mongers on March 13, 2013, 03:52:28 PM
Quote from: Warspite on March 13, 2013, 03:45:10 PM
Physical attraction is an important part of many relationships, so yes, I would say it is a fair reason for a divorce. It's at least a more tangible reason than simply "growing apart".
If one or both are putting on weight, they could literally be "growing apart". :P
:lol:
Just communicate and commit to what the two of you want physically in the beginning and future.
I am generally fit, and I am generally attracted to fit women. As part of our relationship (and later marriage), we must agree to *believe* that being fit is a good thing to be. We must agree to pursue being fit for life as best we can, but we admit that we may naturally get fat due to ageing, childbirth, illness, disability, utter busyness, etc. The latter reasons are not grounds for divorce, but are instead grounds for love and support.
Because she gains a few pounds, no. Blows up to landwhale/American fat proportions....yeah kinda. It would kill the boner for sure.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 13, 2013, 04:06:07 PM
Because she gains a few pounds, no. Blows up to landwhale/American fat proportions....yeah kinda. It would kill the boner for sure.
I would broach the subject of "open marriage".
QuoteWould you consider your spouse getting fat a good reason for divorce?
Yes
Yes.
A good reason? No.
A valid reason? Possibly.
On the other hand, my wife certainly put on some weight after a couple kids. I thought it might bother me, but it turns out it bothers her a hell of a lot more than it bothers me. I still think she is hot.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 13, 2013, 03:42:49 PM
http://www.xojane.com/relationships/my-husband-almost-divorced-me-because-im-fat
Cliff notes:
1: Wife was only a little overweight when they married
2: Wife and husband both work on weight loss for years
3: Wife reads on the internet that it's ok to be fat, so she decides to accept it and stop trying
4: Husband disagrees and they decide to split up
Well he has the additional reasons that she's kinda dumb. It's not "Okay" to be fat. It's a serious health risk.
I didn't read the source but it depends on the definition of "fat".
Forgot to also mention that the guy should have known what he might get (fat wife). She had a history of being fat, and she trapped him during her "slim phase". We all know women who do this.
What Would Newt Do?
Yes.
Quote from: Viking on March 13, 2013, 04:59:19 PM
What Would Newt Do?
Or John McCain, who divorced his crippled fat wife.
Or John Edwards, who his cancerous fat wife.
We have great leaders.
Quote from: Viking on March 13, 2013, 04:59:19 PM
What Would Newt Do?
Be able to breath air and water?
Not sure why it is a positive that she forced him to settle for her fatness...but then I rarely understand xojane.
Quote from: garbon on March 13, 2013, 05:07:39 PM
Not sure why it is a positive that she forced him to settle for her fatness...but then I rarely understand xojane.
Would I divorce my wife if she got fat? Hell no.
Would I have divorced the woman in that article? Absolutely.
Alas, one newt, so many life threatening experiments.
Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 03:44:44 PM
In my case, no. But depending on the situation I might not scorn another dude for doing it.
:lol:
Quote from: Berkut on March 13, 2013, 04:40:25 PM
A good reason? No.
A valid reason? Possibly.
On the other hand, my wife certainly put on some weight after a couple kids. I thought it might bother me, but it turns out it bothers her a hell of a lot more than it bothers me. I still think she is hot.
Did her tits get bigger? If so then you can look past everything else my friend.
Depends on other factors.
* Are you getting less attractive too?
* Is the fat on the stomach or in attractive places?
* Are we talking chubby or FAT?
* Is she smelly-fat?
* Do you have opportunities to sleep around elsewhere?
etc....
Quote from: Caliga on March 13, 2013, 06:29:42 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 13, 2013, 04:40:25 PM
A good reason? No.
A valid reason? Possibly.
On the other hand, my wife certainly put on some weight after a couple kids. I thought it might bother me, but it turns out it bothers her a hell of a lot more than it bothers me. I still think she is hot.
Did her tits get bigger? If so then you can look past everything else my friend.
I WOULD NEVER SAY SUCH A THING!
giggity
CHUBBY
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.shutterstock.com%2Fdisplay_pic_with_logo%2F83391%2F83391%2C1330363489%2C2%2Fstock-photo-chubby-woman-eating-slice-of-cake-isolated-on-white-96204548.jpg&hash=99909e59b4da262cea00bbc2226cf2ce0c1a7a33)
FAT
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fus.123rf.com%2F400wm%2F400%2F400%2Fnyul%2Fnyul1202%2Fnyul120200500%2F12472238-fat-woman-resting-at-the-gym-in-colorful-sportswear-smiling.jpg&hash=6bc660744a520c2eb086f1e07d57a7f4f9083dc3)
HEAVY DROP
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-tW3zKdqQPiU%2FTquzRvkWDII%2FAAAAAAAAC78%2Fi-89Q8TIVuE%2Fs1600%2FFunny%2BFat%2BLady_1.jpg&hash=8ad2d3c9126e05e996572dddbd07547bd9d03393)
Ugh, code pink.
If she gets larger than me, yes.
Quote from: Warspite on March 13, 2013, 03:45:10 PM
Physical attraction is an important part of many relationships, so yes, I would say it is a fair reason for a divorce.
Shame most women don't understand that.
Quote from: Phillip V on March 13, 2013, 04:04:44 PM
Just communicate and commit to what the two of you want physically in the beginning and future.
I am generally fit, and I am generally attracted to fit women. As part of our relationship (and later marriage), we must agree to *believe* that being fit is a good thing to be. We must agree to pursue being fit for life as best we can, but we admit that we may naturally get fat due to ageing, childbirth, illness, disability, utter busyness, etc. The latter reasons are not grounds for divorce, but are instead grounds for love and support.
P5 is an enabler.
Other reasons for divorce:
Nagging
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 13, 2013, 08:59:42 PM
Other reasons for divorce:
Nagging
Bitchiness makes the living hell of marriage into a living hell.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 13, 2013, 08:59:42 PM
Other reasons for divorce:
Nagging
His reason for divorce: She changed
Her reason for divorce: He didn't
While I wouldn't forsake someone for getting fat, I would have far greater qualms with them buying into fat acceptance activism on the internet.
That stuff's off the deep end of tumblr identity nonsense.
No but if it bothers someone so much that he considers divorce then he got married too early.
You mean they should have waited for her to get old and fat before marrying her? :unsure: :P
Yes.
That seems stupid but people, especially Americans, get married too quickly.
Quote from: HVC on March 14, 2013, 08:13:52 AM
You mean they should have waited for her to get old and fat before marrying her? :unsure: :P
Tom Lehrer put it best here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpVdCzpvl4
:D
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 08:16:32 AM
That seems stupid but people, especially Americans, get married too quickly.
What's your gauge of that?
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 08:16:32 AM
That seems stupid but people, especially Americans, get married too quickly.
What's your gauge of that?
I think GF is only in favor of posthumous marriage. Maybe on your deathbed if you are in a hurry.
Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 08:38:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 08:16:32 AM
That seems stupid but people, especially Americans, get married too quickly.
What's your gauge of that?
I think GF is only in favor of posthumous marriage. Maybe on your deathbed if you are in a hurry.
As an aside, my maternal great-grandmother's first marriage was to a man already dead - wedding took place at the graveside.
She was married a total of five times ... I guess that first one was a sign. :lol:
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 08:16:32 AM
That seems stupid but people, especially Americans, get married too quickly.
What's your gauge of that?
TV
Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 08:38:27 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 08:16:32 AM
That seems stupid but people, especially Americans, get married too quickly.
What's your gauge of that?
I think GF is only in favor of posthumous marriage. Maybe on your deathbed if you are in a hurry.
Only if both are deadish.
GF's been watching Dharma and Greg?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 14, 2013, 09:15:39 AM
GF's been watching Dharma and Greg?
:shutup:
I don't know what that is.
People get married and have children too late! :o
Those things should not be related, at all.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 09:20:16 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 14, 2013, 09:15:39 AM
GF's been watching Dharma and Greg?
:shutup:
I don't know what that is.
Well, then where do you get the idea from American tv that people rush into marriage? It's not a very common motif, in fact they tend to drag relationships out for many seasons.
He's pulling your leg. He's from Quebec. They don't do marriages there anymore.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:29:20 AM
He's pulling your leg. He's from Quebec. They don't do marriages there anymore.
Well yeah, I know about that.
It's just that people IRL get married much quicker than they do on tv.
To go back to the original question...
No!
The typical marriage vow is "for richer and poorer, through sickness and in health". It's not about 'just as long as you both are having fun'.
Weight gain as you age, and in particular weight gain through child birth, is perhaps not inevitable, but is pretty commonplace. If you're going to decide to have children together, you'd better prepare yourself for the possibility your other half will gain weight.
Now I'm not a catholic and don't believe that divorce can never happen. When it comes to weight gain, I would consider it if your partner just completely "gives up on themselves". That is, gives up any attempt at a healthy diet, gives up any attempt at proper exercise, and just resigns themselves to sitting on the couch till their heart explodes, I would probably get out.
But someone who is making attempts at healthy eating, is getting exercise and leaving an active life, but has wound up 20, or even 100lb, overweight? Well that's what you're signing up for when you get married.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:36:38 AM
The typical marriage vow is "for richer and poorer, through sickness and in health". It's not about 'just as long as you both are having fun'.
The latter is what's common in practice these days.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 14, 2013, 09:33:31 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:29:20 AM
He's pulling your leg. He's from Quebec. They don't do marriages there anymore.
Well yeah, I know about that.
It's just that people IRL get married much quicker than they do on tv.
The leg pulling is the answer "TV".
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 09:39:55 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 14, 2013, 09:33:31 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:29:20 AM
He's pulling your leg. He's from Quebec. They don't do marriages there anymore.
Well yeah, I know about that.
It's just that people IRL get married much quicker than they do on tv.
The leg pulling is the answer "TV".
Pretty dull. Even Marti does better.
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:39:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:36:38 AM
The typical marriage vow is "for richer and poorer, through sickness and in health". It's not about 'just as long as you both are having fun'.
The latter is what's common in practice these days.
Well it shouldn't be. :mad:
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 10:05:08 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:39:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:36:38 AM
The typical marriage vow is "for richer and poorer, through sickness and in health". It's not about 'just as long as you both are having fun'.
The latter is what's common in practice these days.
Well it shouldn't be. :mad:
Why? Why should people who are unhappy stay together?
I mean I'm not saying they should immediately jump ship as no relationship is ever perfect all the time - but it seems that given our limited time here, why should someone stay with someone who is bringing them down?
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 10:05:08 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:39:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:36:38 AM
The typical marriage vow is "for richer and poorer, through sickness and in health". It's not about 'just as long as you both are having fun'.
The latter is what's common in practice these days.
Well it shouldn't be. :mad:
Agree. Though I have a bigger issue if there are children involved in a divorce.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 10:05:08 AM
Well it shouldn't be. :mad:
I think it depends on both parties' thoughts about the permanancy of marriage. If both parties think marriage is just glorified dating and an excuse to throw a big party, there's really no harm in casual divorce.
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 10:07:56 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 10:05:08 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:39:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:36:38 AM
The typical marriage vow is "for richer and poorer, through sickness and in health". It's not about 'just as long as you both are having fun'.
The latter is what's common in practice these days.
Well it shouldn't be. :mad:
Why? Why should people who are unhappy stay together?
I mean I'm not saying they should immediately jump ship as no relationship is ever perfect all the time - but it seems that given our limited time here, why should someone stay with someone who is bringing them down?
I don't think it is so much a question of whether you should stay with someone who is making you unhappy, but evaluating whether or not the right things are driving your happiness.
If your wife putting on a few pounds is the difference between being happy or unhappy, then the problem is probably not really your wife's weight.
Quote from: Berkut on March 14, 2013, 10:15:08 AM
If your wife putting on a few pounds is the difference between being happy or unhappy, then the problem is probably not really your wife's weight.
Fair but then I don't think that was the case in the initial article. Wasn't just an issue of a few pounds.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:36:38 AM
Now I'm not a catholic and don't believe that divorce can never happen. When it comes to weight gain, I would consider it if your partner just completely "gives up on themselves". That is, gives up any attempt at a healthy diet, gives up any attempt at proper exercise, and just resigns themselves to sitting on the couch till their heart explodes, I would probably get out.
Reading the article in the OP, that's pretty similar to the situation as decribed, albeit with a positive spin ('I learned to accept myself').
QuoteAll this time I thought he'd found me beautiful, fat or thin, but suddenly I had to consider that he'd only tolerated my fatness because he knew I was trying my hardest to lose weight. While I'd been dreaming of being thin, he'd been dreaming too -- of having a thin, conventionally beautiful wife.
But I realized that I couldn't keep promising him -- or myself -- that I would ever be thin, even if I tried. Moreover, I didn't think I should be obligated to keep trying.
I disagree M. The lady in the article said she eats healthily, exercises regularily, and remains active. She just decided that after years and years she was going to stop trying to lose weight.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 11:05:53 AM
I disagree M. The lady in the article said she eats healthily, exercises regularily, and remains active. She just decided that after years and years she was going to stop trying to lose weight.
I think she's being a little disingenuous that her health is fine and I notice that she qualifies the extent to how her weight affects her by saying "my weight didn't prevent me from doing activities I enjoyed".
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 11:05:53 AM
I disagree M. The lady in the article said she eats healthily, exercises regularily, and remains active. She just decided that after years and years she was going to stop trying to lose weight.
She
says he's healthy. that being fat 'doesn't prevent her from doing the activities she enjoys', and that she swims - but that they 'don't discuss exercise with each other any more'.
Your hypothetical couch potato may very well
say the same sorts of things.
I'm pretty cynical about this sort of self-assessment.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 13, 2013, 03:42:49 PM
3: Wife reads on the internet that it's ok to be fat, so she decides to accept it and stop trying
In this case definitely yes, but not because she is fat, but because she is a dumb bitch.
In general, the answer is yes, within reason.
Anyway, Internet is horrible with its fat enablers.
When some stupid obese cunt posts her picture in a bikini, the correct response should be derision and abuse, aimed at forcing her to change her habits (or remove herself from the gene pool, so that her atoms may be put to a better use by mother nature - either outcome is desirable); not to have a bunch of other faggots encourage her with "big is beautiful".
Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:17:54 AM
Anyway, Internet is horrible with its fat enablers.
When some stupid obese cunt posts her picture in a bikini, the correct response should be derision and abuse, aimed at forcing her to change her habits (or remove herself from the gene pool, so that her atoms may be put to a better use by mother nature - either outcome is desirable); not to have a bunch of other faggots encourage her with "big is beautiful".
She's a lot more likely to be insulted about it on the internet than IRL.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 14, 2013, 11:20:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:17:54 AM
Anyway, Internet is horrible with its fat enablers.
When some stupid obese cunt posts her picture in a bikini, the correct response should be derision and abuse, aimed at forcing her to change her habits (or remove herself from the gene pool, so that her atoms may be put to a better use by mother nature - either outcome is desirable); not to have a bunch of other faggots encourage her with "big is beautiful".
She's a lot more likely to be insulted about it on the internet than IRL.
Really depends on where it's posted.
Well clearly it was posted in a venue where Marty might read it. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 11:13:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 11:05:53 AM
I disagree M. The lady in the article said she eats healthily, exercises regularily, and remains active. She just decided that after years and years she was going to stop trying to lose weight.
She says he's healthy. that being fat 'doesn't prevent her from doing the activities she enjoys', and that she swims - but that they 'don't discuss exercise with each other any more'.
Your hypothetical couch potato may very well say the same sorts of things.
I'm pretty cynical about this sort of self-assessment.
Me too. You just don't see that many obese 80 year olds. How healthy can it be? Up to a certain point, I can see it. But not 5'2" 320 pounds kind of fat. At least some percentage of this stuff has to be simple rationalization.
Quote from: Berkut on March 14, 2013, 10:15:08 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 10:07:56 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 10:05:08 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:39:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:36:38 AM
The typical marriage vow is "for richer and poorer, through sickness and in health". It's not about 'just as long as you both are having fun'.
The latter is what's common in practice these days.
Well it shouldn't be. :mad:
Why? Why should people who are unhappy stay together?
I mean I'm not saying they should immediately jump ship as no relationship is ever perfect all the time - but it seems that given our limited time here, why should someone stay with someone who is bringing them down?
I don't think it is so much a question of whether you should stay with someone who is making you unhappy, but evaluating whether or not the right things are driving your happiness.
If your wife putting on a few pounds is the difference between being happy or unhappy, then the problem is probably not really your wife's weight.
The problem is enabling. Stop enabling.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 14, 2013, 11:27:52 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 11:13:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 11:05:53 AM
I disagree M. The lady in the article said she eats healthily, exercises regularily, and remains active. She just decided that after years and years she was going to stop trying to lose weight.
She says he's healthy. that being fat 'doesn't prevent her from doing the activities she enjoys', and that she swims - but that they 'don't discuss exercise with each other any more'.
Your hypothetical couch potato may very well say the same sorts of things.
I'm pretty cynical about this sort of self-assessment.
Me too. You just don't see that many obese 80 year olds. How healthy can it be? Up to a certain point, I can see it. But not 5'2" 320 pounds kind of fat. At least some percentage of this stuff has to be simple rationalization.
That's because just as it is natural to gain weight in middle age, it is natural to lose weight in old age.
And by the way I had to great-grandmothers who lived to ripe old ages. One was a tiny little stick who lived into her 90s, the other a much more matronly woman who lived into her late 80s.
The women in the link doesn't give ehr current weight, but does talk about being 200lb, and does post a current (faceless) pick. At 5'2" the low 200s looks about right.
Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:17:54 AM
Anyway, Internet is horrible with its fat enablers.
When some stupid obese cunt posts her picture in a bikini, the correct response should be derision and abuse, aimed at forcing her to change her habits (or remove herself from the gene pool, so that her atoms may be put to a better use by mother nature - either outcome is desirable); not to have a bunch of other faggots encourage her with "big is beautiful".
:ike:
Finally broke down & read the article. "Fat acceptance" :bleeding:
Fat is the new gay. People will have to learn to accept it.
Quote from: derspiess on March 14, 2013, 12:09:35 PM
Finally broke down & read the article. "Fat acceptance" :bleeding:
Identity politics strikes again! I look forward to the anti-fat legislation.
How would you feel about it if it were the other way around?
Say you get married and then you are the one who got fat.
Personally, I would feel pretty guilty about it. Like I'm somehow betraying her. I think I have a responsibility to at least attempt to be what my spouse considers attractive. It's not like all the other relationships in my life, it has a significant intimate physical component to it too.
Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 12:12:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 14, 2013, 12:09:35 PM
Finally broke down & read the article. "Fat acceptance" :bleeding:
Identity politics strikes again! I look forward to the anti-fat legislation.
Bloomberg as tried that and failed.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 14, 2013, 12:17:20 PM
It's not like all the other relationships in my life, it has a significant intimate physical component to it too.
Oh then it's quite like countless "relationships" in my life.
Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 12:18:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 12:12:32 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 14, 2013, 12:09:35 PM
Finally broke down & read the article. "Fat acceptance" :bleeding:
Identity politics strikes again! I look forward to the anti-fat legislation.
Bloomberg as tried that and failed.
Ooops I mean the anti-fat discrimination legislation.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 14, 2013, 12:17:20 PM
How would you feel about it if it were the other way around?
Say you get married and then you are the one who got fat.
Personally, I would feel pretty guilty about it. Like I'm somehow betraying her. I think I have a responsibility to at least attempt to be what my spouse considers attractive. It's not like all the other relationships in my life, it has a significant intimate physical component to it too.
But keep going with the analogy.
You gain weight after marriage. You try diet after diet over years and are unable to lose the weight. You wish you were skinny, but just can't seem to manage to do it.
Then, and only then - do you think you're justified in saying "sorry honey, I can't do it. You'll just have to love me for who I am".
I can certainly see why some people would think that way. Maybe if I were somehow disabled. In general though, my brain doesn't work that way. I have a strong sense of personal responsibility. It would have to be pretty severe to consider giving up.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 14, 2013, 12:17:20 PM
How would you feel about it if it were the other way around?
Say you get married and then you are the one who got fat.
Personally, I would feel pretty guilty about it. Like I'm somehow betraying her. I think I have a responsibility to at least attempt to be what my spouse considers attractive. It's not like all the other relationships in my life, it has a significant intimate physical component to it too.
But keep going with the analogy.
You gain weight after marriage. You try diet after diet over years and are unable to lose the weight. You wish you were skinny, but just can't seem to manage to do it.
Then, and only then - do you think you're justified in saying "sorry honey, I can't do it. You'll just have to love me for who I am".
I question the premise - that someone *cannot* at least attempt to control their weight no matter how hard they try.
Certainly, some people have a basic body type and they are never going to be fashion model thin. But giving up altogether on controlling what they eat? I don't see this as making a virtue of necessity.
I don't think it is reasonable to demand one's spouse obtain some arbitrary measure of fitness or thinness, but it isn't reasonable OTOH to simply throw one's hands up in the air and outright give up even trying to control what you eat, with the predictable consequences of that. For one, you are effectively demanding that your spouse watch as you self-harm.
It's really no different from any other form of self-harm: "honey, I can't stop my drinking, you will just have to love a drunk". That's different from "honey, I have a drinking problem. Please work with me on this". Same with obesity. Only, obesity is often even harder to deal with, as one *can* just give up drinking but just giving up eating is impossibe.
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 12:31:07 PM
It's really no different from any other form of self-harm: "honey, I can't stop my drinking, you will just have to love a drunk". That's different from "honey, I have a drinking problem. Please work with me on this". Same with obesity. Only, obesity is often even harder to deal with, as one *can* just give up drinking but just giving up eating is impossibe.
Yeah I was thinking like that as well.
There is a world of difference between 'watching what you eat but not actively dieting' and 'eating whatever you want'.
I don't actually see her addressing watching what she eats.
Also this line strikes me as a bit off:
"my fat was part of the package, not something that could (or should) be changed."
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 12:51:05 PM
I don't actually see her addressing watching what she eats.
True. I assumed it with the "we both get plenty of exercise", plus the fact she doesn't seemed to have gained any significant amount of weight either.
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 12:31:07 PM
It's really no different from any other form of self-harm: "honey, I can't stop my drinking, you will just have to love a drunk". That's different from "honey, I have a drinking problem. Please work with me on this". Same with obesity. Only, obesity is often even harder to deal with, as one *can* just give up drinking but just giving up eating is impossibe.
Agreed.
The article in the OP seems to indicate a woman who just gave up. That personality trait is something I would have trouble dealing with.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 12:31:07 PM
It's really no different from any other form of self-harm: "honey, I can't stop my drinking, you will just have to love a drunk". That's different from "honey, I have a drinking problem. Please work with me on this". Same with obesity. Only, obesity is often even harder to deal with, as one *can* just give up drinking but just giving up eating is impossibe.
Agreed.
The article in the OP seems to indicate a woman who just gave up. That personality trait is something I would have trouble dealing with.
So Sisyphus is a role-model to you? :hmm:
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:03:09 PM
So Sisyphus is a role-model to you? :hmm:
He went through law school so....
Taken the other way, I'd rather be married to someone who was slightly overweight rather than thin and constantly obsessed with staying that way. That just strikes me as being far too narcissistic.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 12:31:07 PM
It's really no different from any other form of self-harm: "honey, I can't stop my drinking, you will just have to love a drunk". That's different from "honey, I have a drinking problem. Please work with me on this". Same with obesity. Only, obesity is often even harder to deal with, as one *can* just give up drinking but just giving up eating is impossibe.
Agreed.
The article in the OP seems to indicate a woman who just gave up. That personality trait is something I would have trouble dealing with.
So Sisyphus is a role-model to you? :hmm:
?
Quote from: frunk on March 14, 2013, 01:12:23 PM
Taken the other way, I'd rather be married to someone who was slightly overweight rather than thin and constantly obsessed with staying that way. That just strikes me as being far too narcissistic.
Why do you think fit peope constantly obsess about staying thin rather than simply having a healthy lifestyle of eating properly and exercising.
Granted that isnt the norm anymore so people that dont eat junkfood and do exercise might seem a bit odd.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 12:31:07 PM
It's really no different from any other form of self-harm: "honey, I can't stop my drinking, you will just have to love a drunk". That's different from "honey, I have a drinking problem. Please work with me on this". Same with obesity. Only, obesity is often even harder to deal with, as one *can* just give up drinking but just giving up eating is impossibe.
Agreed.
The article in the OP seems to indicate a woman who just gave up. That personality trait is something I would have trouble dealing with.
So Sisyphus is a role-model to you? :hmm:
?
:cry: I thought that would be a fairly well-known myth...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 12:31:07 PM
It's really no different from any other form of self-harm: "honey, I can't stop my drinking, you will just have to love a drunk". That's different from "honey, I have a drinking problem. Please work with me on this". Same with obesity. Only, obesity is often even harder to deal with, as one *can* just give up drinking but just giving up eating is impossibe.
Agreed.
The article in the OP seems to indicate a woman who just gave up. That personality trait is something I would have trouble dealing with.
So Sisyphus is a role-model to you? :hmm:
?
I think he's going with her suggestion that weight loss was pointless as she always gained back more.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:16:05 PM
Quote from: frunk on March 14, 2013, 01:12:23 PM
Taken the other way, I'd rather be married to someone who was slightly overweight rather than thin and constantly obsessed with staying that way. That just strikes me as being far too narcissistic.
Why do you think fit peope constantly obsess about staying thin rather than simply having a healthy lifestyle of eating properly and exercising.
I'm not necessarily referring to fit people who have a normal exercise routine and eat healthily. I mean people whose only topic of conversation is their weight and what they are doing about it. The issue isn't their weight or fitness but their ability to hold an interesting conversation. I'm just not that interested in their personal body maintenance.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 12:31:07 PM
It's really no different from any other form of self-harm: "honey, I can't stop my drinking, you will just have to love a drunk". That's different from "honey, I have a drinking problem. Please work with me on this". Same with obesity. Only, obesity is often even harder to deal with, as one *can* just give up drinking but just giving up eating is impossibe.
Agreed.
The article in the OP seems to indicate a woman who just gave up. That personality trait is something I would have trouble dealing with.
So Sisyphus is a role-model to you? :hmm:
?
:cry: I thought that would be a fairly well-known myth...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus
It is but I have no idea why you are mentioning it based on my post.
Are you implying trying to be fit is hopeless?
Finally read the article. Painful.
"Fat acceptance" is just....wow.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:26:08 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 12:31:07 PM
It's really no different from any other form of self-harm: "honey, I can't stop my drinking, you will just have to love a drunk". That's different from "honey, I have a drinking problem. Please work with me on this". Same with obesity. Only, obesity is often even harder to deal with, as one *can* just give up drinking but just giving up eating is impossibe.
Agreed.
The article in the OP seems to indicate a woman who just gave up. That personality trait is something I would have trouble dealing with.
So Sisyphus is a role-model to you? :hmm:
?
:cry: I thought that would be a fairly well-known myth...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus
It is but I have no idea why you are mentioning it based on my post.
Are you implying trying to be fit is hopeless?
Fit? Absolutely not.
But then again you can be fit and healthy and still have excess fat.
For some people trying to be skinny is hopeless (absent absolutely herculean sub-1000 calorie permanent diets).
Sorry Beeb, I agree with you on most things but you're just going to have to admit you're wrong here ;)
For people who "just can't seem to lose weight" (aka people who take big portions & snack a lot, then lie to themselves about it), there's always weight-loss surgery to help them along.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:34:33 PM
Fit? Absolutely not.
But then again you can be fit and healthy and still have excess fat.
For some people trying to be skinny is hopeless (absent absolutely herculean sub-1000 calorie permanent diets).
Then I have no idea what your reference means in context of my post.
How did not being fat becoming being skinny?
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:48:26 PM
Then I have no idea what your reference means in context of my post.
How did not being fat becoming being skinny?
We don't believe in moderation in North America.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:48:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:34:33 PM
Fit? Absolutely not.
But then again you can be fit and healthy and still have excess fat.
For some people trying to be skinny is hopeless (absent absolutely herculean sub-1000 calorie permanent diets).
Then I have no idea what your reference means in context of my post.
How did not being fat becoming being skinny?
It's a Canadian thing.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 12:42:02 PM
There is a world of difference between 'watching what you eat but not actively dieting' and 'eating whatever you want'.
To my mind, "actively dieting" = trying to reduce one's weight by diet, and "watching what one eats" = trying to maintain one's weight (that is, not
increase) by diet.
Both are alike in that the person is exercising some sort of control or restraint over intake - something that many people in more or less sedentary occupations have to do, if they are not to gain weight. They differ in the goal (reduction vs. maintenance).
I cannot wrap my head around "fat acceptance". Sure, I'll readily say that societal norms of beauty, particularly female beauty, are often distorted - many "models" look better suited to wearing Auschwitz uniforms than fashionable clothes ;) - but regulating one's weight within reasonable healthy norms of variation is simply basic to good health, as well as to most people's notions of attractiveness.
Like many who sit on their asses all day at work, I myself have to struggle with weight and commit to exercise. I don't regard this as unreasonable as an expectation. I'll never look like a model, but with work, I can at least be reasonably fit and healthy (as for good looking - well, can't have everything. I'll settle for as good looking as possible. :D
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 02:06:13 PM
Sure, I'll readily say that societal norms of beauty, particularly female beauty, are often distorted - many "models" look better suited to wearing Auschwitz uniforms than fashionable clothes ;) -
[ideologue] fat enabler <_< [/ideologue]
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 14, 2013, 02:21:17 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 02:06:13 PM
Sure, I'll readily say that societal norms of beauty, particularly female beauty, are often distorted - many "models" look better suited to wearing Auschwitz uniforms than fashionable clothes ;) -
[ideologue] fat enabler <_< [/ideologue]
Shouldn't that be:
[ideologue] Hawt models in Aucshwitz uniforms? Link me! :w00t: :mmm: [/ideologue]
:P
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 12:20:07 PM
You gain weight after marriage. You try diet after diet over years and are unable to lose the weight. You wish you were skinny, but just can't seem to manage to do it.
That's just a pathetic excuse. Very, very few people are fat because they are physically unable to lose weight. Most people are fat because they eat too much, eat shit and don't exercise.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 01:03:09 PM
So Sisyphus is a role-model to you? :hmm:
Tantalus would fit better in this thread. :P
Or maybe poor Ali Sard.
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:36:38 AM
To go back to the original question...
No!
The typical marriage vow is "for richer and poorer, through sickness and in health". It's not about 'just as long as you both are having fun'.
Weight gain as you age, and in particular weight gain through child birth, is perhaps not inevitable, but is pretty commonplace. If you're going to decide to have children together, you'd better prepare yourself for the possibility your other half will gain weight.
Now I'm not a catholic and don't believe that divorce can never happen. When it comes to weight gain, I would consider it if your partner just completely "gives up on themselves". That is, gives up any attempt at a healthy diet, gives up any attempt at proper exercise, and just resigns themselves to sitting on the couch till their heart explodes, I would probably get out.
But someone who is making attempts at healthy eating, is getting exercise and leaving an active life, but has wound up 20, or even 100lb, overweight? Well that's what you're signing up for when you get married.
Well there are laws about bigamy so if she doubles her weight your marriage should become automatically annulled.
Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:17:54 AM
Anyway, Internet is horrible with its fat enablers.
Hey, I try to you make you feel bad. What the fuck else do you want?
Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 01:58:42 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:48:26 PM
Then I have no idea what your reference means in context of my post.
How did not being fat becoming being skinny?
We don't believe in moderation in North America.
:lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on March 14, 2013, 04:01:07 PM
Well there are laws about bigamy so if she doubles her weight your marriage should become automatically annulled.
:lol:
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 14, 2013, 12:17:20 PM
How would you feel about it if it were the other way around?
Say you get married and then you are the one who got fat.
Personally, I would feel pretty guilty about it. Like I'm somehow betraying her. I think I have a responsibility to at least attempt to be what my spouse considers attractive. It's not like all the other relationships in my life, it has a significant intimate physical component to it too.
But keep going with the analogy.
You gain weight after marriage. You try diet after diet over years and are unable to lose the weight. You wish you were skinny, but just can't seem to manage to do it.
Then it's time to give up on fucking attractive people. Stop enabling.
AND GOD I'M FUCKING STARVING.
Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 01:58:42 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 14, 2013, 01:48:26 PM
Then I have no idea what your reference means in context of my post.
How did not being fat becoming being skinny?
We don't believe in moderation in North America.
Neither do Germans, but at least our problem is with french fries.
This thread: :rolleyes:
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 12:29:45 PM
This thread: :rolleyes:
You support the fat acceptance movement?
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 12:29:45 PM
This thread: :rolleyes:
Hey it is not like they were discussing BMI!
I thought she was just upset she took 4 days to weigh in on the issues.
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 12:29:45 PM
This thread: :rolleyes:
You support the fat acceptance movement?
I support the right of people to decide for themselves how they feel about how they look. Besides, a bunch of men sitting around talking about how their wives can lose weight if they just do x, y, and z is a joke. Women aren't built like men, we don't lose weight like men, and it's not as easy for us as it is for you. So yeah, everytime a bunch of men go off about how fat women are and it's because they're just not trying hard enough, I roll my eyes. :rolleyes:
I don't particularly care about how others look, how much weight they have on them, or whether or not they're happy that way. It's, quite frankly, none of my business. When it comes to my spouse, it's more of a factor of his health. So long as he's healthy, his weight is a non-issue to me. Since there are plenty of healthy folks with extra fat on them, the weight won't be what I focus on, and it certainly wouldn't be a reason to leave him.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 18, 2013, 12:37:52 PM
I thought she was just upset she took 4 days to weigh in on the issues.
I was on vacation, eating a lot, drinking a lot, and relaxing a lot. I think I gained three pounds. I'm a happy girl. :cool:
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 18, 2013, 12:37:52 PM
I thought she was just upset she took 4 days to weigh in on the issues.
I think she went into hiding for a bit after the female kicker fiasco.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 12:29:45 PM
This thread: :rolleyes:
You support the fat acceptance movement?
I support the right of people to decide for themselves how they feel about how they look. Besides, a bunch of men sitting around talking about how their wives can lose weight if they just do x, y, and z is a joke. Women aren't built like men, we don't lose weight like men, and it's not as easy for us as it is for you. So yeah, everytime a bunch of men go off about how fat women are and it's because they're just not trying hard enough, I roll my eyes. :rolleyes:
I don't particularly care about how others look, how much weight they have on them, or whether or not they're happy that way. It's, quite frankly, none of my business. When it comes to my spouse, it's more of a factor of his health. So long as he's healthy, his weight is a non-issue to me. Since there are plenty of healthy folks with extra fat on them, the weight won't be what I focus on, and it certainly wouldn't be a reason to leave him.
Even if that means that they decide for themselves to be unhealthy and a medical burden?
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 01:39:46 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 12:29:45 PM
This thread: :rolleyes:
You support the fat acceptance movement?
I support the right of people to decide for themselves how they feel about how they look. Besides, a bunch of men sitting around talking about how their wives can lose weight if they just do x, y, and z is a joke. Women aren't built like men, we don't lose weight like men, and it's not as easy for us as it is for you. So yeah, everytime a bunch of men go off about how fat women are and it's because they're just not trying hard enough, I roll my eyes. :rolleyes:
I don't particularly care about how others look, how much weight they have on them, or whether or not they're happy that way. It's, quite frankly, none of my business. When it comes to my spouse, it's more of a factor of his health. So long as he's healthy, his weight is a non-issue to me. Since there are plenty of healthy folks with extra fat on them, the weight won't be what I focus on, and it certainly wouldn't be a reason to leave him.
Even if that means that they decide for themselves to be unhealthy and a medical burden?
Then public policy should focus on being healthy, and not (or at least only incidentally) on fat.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 12:29:45 PM
This thread: :rolleyes:
You support the fat acceptance movement?
I support the right of people to decide for themselves how they feel about how they look. Besides, a bunch of men sitting around talking about how their wives can lose weight if they just do x, y, and z is a joke. Women aren't built like men, we don't lose weight like men, and it's not as easy for us as it is for you. So yeah, everytime a bunch of men go off about how fat women are and it's because they're just not trying hard enough, I roll my eyes. :rolleyes:
I don't particularly care about how others look, how much weight they have on them, or whether or not they're happy that way. It's, quite frankly, none of my business. When it comes to my spouse, it's more of a factor of his health. So long as he's healthy, his weight is a non-issue to me. Since there are plenty of healthy folks with extra fat on them, the weight won't be what I focus on, and it certainly wouldn't be a reason to leave him.
Oh, so if I'm unhappy about non-Catholics who go on about how the Church should do this and that without having any interest of join the church that's out of bounds, but if you are unhappy about men talking about a woman's health find and dandy?
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 01:39:46 PM
Even if that means that they decide for themselves to be unhealthy and a medical burden?
Two different things. Fat=/= unhealthy.
But to answer your question, if Max was a diabetic and refused to take his insulin, I would not leave him, no.
If your partner wants to let themselves go, you have to let them go.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
But to answer your question, if Max was a diabetic and refused to take his insulin, I would not leave him, no.
You wouldn't have to. He would be leaving this earth soon enough. ;)
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
So yeah, everytime a bunch of men go off about how fat women are and it's because they're just not trying hard enough, I roll my eyes. :rolleyes:
Eh. For the most part everybody was condemning the 'fat acceptance' movement or whatever rather than giving women, in particular, shit.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 01:45:29 PM
Then public policy should focus on being healthy, and not (or at least only incidentally) on fat.
I agree and I think in many cases it does.
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 01:51:24 PM
If your partner wants to let themselves go, you have to let them go.
If you love someone...
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
Two different things. Fat=/= unhealthy.
Pretty strong correlation, though, and for any given person, all else being the same, more fat is worse than less fat.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
Two different things. Fat=/= unhealthy.
It is a risk factor. Smoker =/= unhealthy either.
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
So yeah, everytime a bunch of men go off about how fat women are and it's because they're just not trying hard enough, I roll my eyes. :rolleyes:
Eh. For the most part everybody was condemning the 'fat acceptance' movement or whatever rather than giving women, in particular, shit.
No there was plenty of advice about how fat people (and fat women in particular) just aren't trying hard enough.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 01:53:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
So yeah, everytime a bunch of men go off about how fat women are and it's because they're just not trying hard enough, I roll my eyes. :rolleyes:
Eh. For the most part everybody was condemning the 'fat acceptance' movement or whatever rather than giving women, in particular, shit.
No there was plenty of advice about how fat people (and fat women in particular) just aren't trying hard enough.
I though the discussion was around people who had given up / simply decided they were healthy as they currently are.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 18, 2013, 01:52:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
But to answer your question, if Max was a diabetic and refused to take his insulin, I would not leave him, no.
You wouldn't have to. He would be leaving this earth soon enough. ;)
Heh. My dad held on for years and years, dying a very long, very painful death. Mostly due to not taking care of his diabetes.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
But to answer your question, if Max was a diabetic and refused to take his insulin, I would not leave him, no.
Gotcha. I, personally, would leave someone if they were bipolar and then decided they were no longer going to take their medication.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 18, 2013, 12:37:52 PM
I thought she was just upset she took 4 days to weigh in on the issues.
I was on vacation, eating a lot, drinking a lot, and relaxing a lot. I think I gained three pounds. I'm a happy girl. :cool:
poor woman, max will be leaving in 3,2,1...
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 01:57:52 PM
I, personally, would leave someone if they were bipolar and then decided they were no longer going to take their medication.
But what about the days they were OK? Would you go back on those days?
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 01:53:35 PM
No there was plenty of advice about how fat people (and fat women in particular) just aren't trying hard enough.
LOL no there wasn't. We spent most of the thing debating marriage. I have participated in this thread and never even addressed the question.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 18, 2013, 02:00:49 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 01:57:52 PM
I, personally, would leave someone if they were bipolar and then decided they were no longer going to take their medication.
But what about the days they were OK? Would you go back on those days?
That sounds unduly tiring.
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 01:53:06 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
Two different things. Fat=/= unhealthy.
Pretty strong correlation, though, and for any given person, all else being the same, more fat is worse than less fat.
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
Two different things. Fat=/= unhealthy.
It is a risk factor. Smoker =/= unhealthy either.
And when it affects his health, I'll talk to him about getting healthy, not about getting thin. When the focus is on fat, it takes on the appearance of it being about looks, not health. Why do that to your spouse when it may never affect their health?
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
Well that is the moderation joke I made earlier. 'Fat' is generally not 'somewhat overweight' unless you have the mental pathology of Ide. So when we say 'fat' I am thinking pretty obese.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 01:53:06 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
Two different things. Fat=/= unhealthy.
Pretty strong correlation, though, and for any given person, all else being the same, more fat is worse than less fat.
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
I'm not sure that was relevant to the discussion here though. I don't know what we had anyone that said kick a spouse over a few pounds. In the article we had a woman who said she was chubby at 160 and then gained 40 extra pounds.
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
Well that is the moderation joke I made earlier. 'Fat' is generally not 'somewhat overweight' unless you have the mental pathology of Ide. So when we say 'fat' I am thinking pretty obese.
I have heard some pretty mean things said about women who are only somewhat, or even slightly, overweight.
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
Well that is the moderation joke I made earlier. 'Fat' is generally not 'somewhat overweight' unless you have the mental pathology of Ide. So when we say 'fat' I am thinking pretty obese.
:yes:
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 02:06:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
Well that is the moderation joke I made earlier. 'Fat' is generally not 'somewhat overweight' unless you have the mental pathology of Ide. So when we say 'fat' I am thinking pretty obese.
:yes:
Well this is begging the question - is 200lb on a woman "pretty obese"?
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 01:53:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
So yeah, everytime a bunch of men go off about how fat women are and it's because they're just not trying hard enough, I roll my eyes. :rolleyes:
Eh. For the most part everybody was condemning the 'fat acceptance' movement or whatever rather than giving women, in particular, shit.
No there was plenty of advice about how fat people (and fat women in particular) just aren't trying hard enough.
In the part of the thread I saw, the issue was framed as whether or not someone was trying at all to keep healthy. The woman in the linked article appears to be of the opinion that so such effort was required. Most posters I read specifically noted that what was required was reasonable effort at fitness, not achieving some specific result in terms of body shape.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 02:06:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
Well that is the moderation joke I made earlier. 'Fat' is generally not 'somewhat overweight' unless you have the mental pathology of Ide. So when we say 'fat' I am thinking pretty obese.
:yes:
Well this is begging the question - is 200lb on a woman "pretty obese"?
Well I don't know about in a clinical sense but what we're then talking about a woman who is now 60 or so pounds overweight - assuming she was right in her self-description as being chubby at 160?
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:08:16 PM
Well this is begging the question - is 200lb on a woman "pretty obese"?
Maybe depends on the height, but I'd say yes.
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 02:06:25 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
I'm not sure that was relevant to the discussion here though. I don't know what we had anyone that said kick a spouse over a few pounds. In the article we had a woman who said she was chubby at 160 and then gained 40 extra pounds.
Depending on her family history, muscle-mass, and height, that's not that big. At my heaviest of 185, no one would have thought me unhealthy, and I'm 5'2".
So this threadhas been about being overweight as much as about being morbidly obese
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:08:16 PM
Well this is begging the question - is 200lb on a woman "pretty obese"?
Heck I am from Texas. If anybody is 200lb or lower they have a body to be admired.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 01:53:06 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
Two different things. Fat=/= unhealthy.
Pretty strong correlation, though, and for any given person, all else being the same, more fat is worse than less fat.
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
My guess is that the article in the OP didn't really apply to people in the 25-30 BMI range, which while slightly overweight, doesn't appear to be unhealthy.
Quote from: derspiess on March 18, 2013, 02:11:02 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:08:16 PM
Well this is begging the question - is 200lb on a woman "pretty obese"?
Maybe depends on the height, but I'd say yes.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:04:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
Two different things. Fat=/= unhealthy.
It is a risk factor. Smoker =/= unhealthy either.
And when it affects his health, I'll talk to him about getting healthy, not about getting thin. When the focus is on fat, it takes on the appearance of it being about looks, not health. Why do that to your spouse when it may never affect their health?
Appearance shouldn't be the end-all-be-all, but it still matters. If Max doesn't shave or bathe for a week, his health would probably stay the same, but I'm sure you'll have a word with him about that.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:15:15 PM
Depending on her family history, muscle-mass, and height, that's not that big. At my heaviest of 185, no one would have thought me unhealthy, and I'm 5'2".
So this threadhas been about being overweight as much as about being morbidly obese
I think if anything, this highlights how charged people get over terms like obese and unhealthy.
Btw, I'd say that having seen those photos in the article - if that's her now - I wouldn't consider her to look healthy.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:06:51 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
Well that is the moderation joke I made earlier. 'Fat' is generally not 'somewhat overweight' unless you have the mental pathology of Ide. So when we say 'fat' I am thinking pretty obese.
I have heard some pretty mean things said about women who are only somewhat, or even slightly, overweight.
I guess I didn't notice. Call me desensitized.
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 02:16:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 01:53:06 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
Two different things. Fat=/= unhealthy.
Pretty strong correlation, though, and for any given person, all else being the same, more fat is worse than less fat.
But that's the thing though. The correlation is stronger as the weight gets higher. But it's lower as weights go lower. It's been the subject of some controversy whether someone who is only somewhat overweight how unhealthy that might be.
My guess is that the article in the OP didn't really apply to people in the 25-30 BMI range, which while slightly overweight, doesn't appear to be unhealthy.
There you go, Valmy. I knew someone would eventually go there.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
There you go, Valmy. I knew someone would eventually go there.
Good. We have not debated this topic enough :cool:
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:17:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 18, 2013, 02:11:02 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:08:16 PM
Well this is begging the question - is 200lb on a woman "pretty obese"?
Maybe depends on the height, but I'd say yes.
:rolleyes:
That just sounds like a lot of weight for an average height woman. I'm sure some wear it better than others.
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
'Fat' is generally not 'somewhat overweight' unless you have the mental pathology of Ide.
Ide likes 'em like the highway from Dallas to Fort Worth: no curves.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:06:51 PM
I have heard some pretty mean things said about women who are only somewhat, or even slightly, overweight.
Oh, I have as well. But it's usually only been when she's full of herself & just needs to be knocked down a couple pegs.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
There you go, Valmy. I knew someone would eventually go there.
How shocking that a notorious numbers guy would resort to using numbers rather than cherry-picked anecdotal evidence or selective extreme statistical scrutiny. :o
Accountants :rolleyes:
Quote from: derspiess on March 18, 2013, 02:24:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:06:51 PM
I have heard some pretty mean things said about women who are only somewhat, or even slightly, overweight.
Oh, I have as well. But it's usually only been when she's full of herself & just needs to be knocked down a couple pegs.
Or when people are being pigs which isn't uncommon.
Quote from: DGuller
Appearance shouldn't be the end-all-be-all, but it still matters. If Max doesn't shave or bathe for a week, his health would probably stay the same, but I'm sure you'll have a word with him about that.
Having a word =/= divorce.
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 02:24:18 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
There you go, Valmy. I knew someone would eventually go there.
How shocking that a notorious numbers guy would resort to using numbers rather than cherry-picked anecdotal evidence or selective extreme statistical scrutiny. :o
I'm more surprised that a self-proclaimed numbers guy would use numbers meant for the volume to apply to the single unit.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller
Appearance shouldn't be the end-all-be-all, but it still matters. If Max doesn't shave or bathe for a week, his health would probably stay the same, but I'm sure you'll have a word with him about that.
Having a word =/= divorce.
Of course that's always the case, no one serves divorce papers as the first reaction. What if Max kept not shaving and not bathing despite repeated conversations?
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 02:51:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: DGuller
Appearance shouldn't be the end-all-be-all, but it still matters. If Max doesn't shave or bathe for a week, his health would probably stay the same, but I'm sure you'll have a word with him about that.
Having a word =/= divorce.
Of course that's always the case, no one serves divorce papers as the first reaction. What if Max kept not shaving and not bathing despite repeated conversations?
Dunno. Guess it would depend on why.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:49:54 PM
I'm more surprised that a self-proclaimed numbers guy would use numbers meant for the volume to apply to the single unit.
I'm not at all surprised that you don't remember the last time I shot down this argument.
Quote from: derspiess on March 18, 2013, 02:24:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:06:51 PM
I have heard some pretty mean things said about women who are only somewhat, or even slightly, overweight.
Oh, I have as well. But it's usually only been when she's full of herself & just needs to be knocked down a couple pegs.
Why does a woman who is "full of herself" need to "be taken down a couple of pegs"? :huh:
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
I support the right of people to decide for themselves how they feel about how they look. Besides, a bunch of men sitting around talking about how their wives can lose weight if they just do x, y, and z is a joke. Women aren't built like men, we don't lose weight like men, and it's not as easy for us as it is for you. So yeah, everytime a bunch of men go off about how fat women are and it's because they're just not trying hard enough, I roll my eyes. :rolleyes:
I don't particularly care about how others look, how much weight they have on them, or whether or not they're happy that way. It's, quite frankly, none of my business. When it comes to my spouse, it's more of a factor of his health. So long as he's healthy, his weight is a non-issue to me. Since there are plenty of healthy folks with extra fat on them, the weight won't be what I focus on, and it certainly wouldn't be a reason to leave him.
Hey my wife has much less difficulty staying fit than I do. She's always been thin. That's not why I started the thread.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 18, 2013, 02:24:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:06:51 PM
I have heard some pretty mean things said about women who are only somewhat, or even slightly, overweight.
Oh, I have as well. But it's usually only been when she's full of herself & just needs to be knocked down a couple pegs.
Why does a woman who is "full of herself" need to "be taken down a couple of pegs"? :huh:
'Cuz she ain't all that. Duh.
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 02:24:18 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
There you go, Valmy. I knew someone would eventually go there.
How shocking that a notorious numbers guy would resort to using numbers rather than cherry-picked anecdotal evidence or selective extreme statistical scrutiny. :o
More that a numbers guy is insisting on using a scalar as a solution to a multi-dimensional problem.
Quote from: Maximus on March 18, 2013, 03:27:55 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 18, 2013, 02:24:18 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
There you go, Valmy. I knew someone would eventually go there.
How shocking that a notorious numbers guy would resort to using numbers rather than cherry-picked anecdotal evidence or selective extreme statistical scrutiny. :o
More that a numbers guy is insisting on using a scalar as a solution to a multi-dimensional problem.
:lol:
I think the relevant test is whether the spouse has let herself/himself go - it's preposterous to expect your partner to keep being interested in you if you stop trying to be attractive to him/her.
Unless you are paying them!
I had a mandatory weigh in* for my wife. 133 pounds. I gave her an acceptable grade.
*I sneaked a peek when she thought I wasn't looking. I AM A NINJA
Quote from: katmai on March 18, 2013, 04:04:58 PM
Unless you are paying them!
Actually if they are truly interested in you, pretty preposterous that you'd pay them.
Stop raining on my parade.
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 05:01:17 PM
Quote from: katmai on March 18, 2013, 04:04:58 PM
Unless you are paying them!
Actually if they are truly interested in you, pretty preposterous that you'd pay them.
The ones who aren't interested in you at all cost $200.
But the ones that are really, truly interested in you cost half of all your stuff, eventually. :P
Quote from: Malthus on March 18, 2013, 05:14:42 PM
The ones who aren't interested in you at all cost $200.
But the ones that are really, truly interested in you cost half of all your stuff, eventually. :P
:lol:
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 18, 2013, 02:24:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:06:51 PM
I have heard some pretty mean things said about women who are only somewhat, or even slightly, overweight.
Oh, I have as well. But it's usually only been when she's full of herself & just needs to be knocked down a couple pegs.
Why does a woman who is "full of herself" need to "be taken down a couple of pegs"? :huh:
Well, obviously when she is two pegs to high.
Quote from: Malthus on March 18, 2013, 05:14:42 PM
The ones who aren't interested in you at all cost $200.
But the ones that are really, truly interested in you cost half of all your stuff, eventually. :P
On a long enough timeline, it's all extortion.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 14, 2013, 11:25:16 AM
Well clearly it was posted in a venue where Marty might read it. :lol:
The irony is that Martinus himself is fat.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 18, 2013, 06:59:18 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 18, 2013, 05:14:42 PM
The ones who aren't interested in you at all cost $200.
But the ones that are really, truly interested in you cost half of all your stuff, eventually. :P
On a long enough timeline, it's all extortion.
The difference between a comedy and a tragedy is where you end the movie.
Quote from: Neil on March 18, 2013, 07:09:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 14, 2013, 11:25:16 AM
Well clearly it was posted in a venue where Marty might read it. :lol:
The irony is that Martinus himself is fat.
Grande faggot.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 12:29:45 PM
This thread: :rolleyes:
You support the fat acceptance movement?
I support the right of people to decide for themselves how they feel about how they look.
Well, I support the right of people to decide for themselves what they find attractive. WHERE IS YOUR LIBERTARIAN GOD NOW?
Also, I dunno if it's harder for women to lose weight. It's pretty hard to eat two-thirds to half your daily expenditure of calories regardless of gender, I imagine. I know I'm pretty hungry (though actually one does get a bit used to it, it's much easier than it was a couple of weeks ago).
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 02:17:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 18, 2013, 02:11:02 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 02:08:16 PM
Well this is begging the question - is 200lb on a woman "pretty obese"?
Maybe depends on the height, but I'd say yes.
:rolleyes:
C'mon, dude. I'm a male, 5'10", and I weigh somewhere between 170-175 pounds (for now, only for now). I don't like my own weight. I'm by no means fat-fat, but it's just not good mojo. I'll grant that I don't possess a ton of muscle mass, but even if I was seriously beefy, unless I had a considerable body fat percentage, I still don't think I would weigh 200 pounds.
So isn't really more likely that a 200 pound woman at say 5'5" is going to be obese, rather than just a little pleasantly plump? Okay,
maybe she's just built like a main battle tank and that's why she's not allowed to cross many highway bridges, but is that really probable enough to argue a point with?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 18, 2013, 02:23:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
'Fat' is generally not 'somewhat overweight' unless you have the mental pathology of Ide.
Ide likes 'em like the highway from Dallas to Fort Worth: no curves.
I don't have a pathology.
Quote from: fahdiz on March 18, 2013, 07:18:41 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 18, 2013, 06:59:18 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 18, 2013, 05:14:42 PM
The ones who aren't interested in you at all cost $200.
But the ones that are really, truly interested in you cost half of all your stuff, eventually. :P
On a long enough timeline, it's all extortion.
The difference between a comedy and a tragedy is where you end the movie.
However, you're all misogynists. Unlike me. :)
Sorry Ide, but you are kinda crazy.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 18, 2013, 08:52:37 PM
Sorry Ide, but you are kinda crazy.
No, you're crazy. He's just young and sometimes stupid. Big difference.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 18, 2013, 08:49:02 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 18, 2013, 08:28:09 PM
I don't have a pathology.
Ooooooh, yes you do.
No. A pathology would get in my way. Despite my thinness advocacy, I know that most women won't maintain a size zero zero physique (can't being another question, and I'll accept that some can't; whatever, it costs me nothing). I don't let my desires unduly influence my rational pursuit of self-interest.
My ex-girlfriend of 4.5 years went from being average weight to borderline morbid obesity (135 lbs at 5'2 to about 185 lbs, for a BMI of 35). For years, she "tried" to diet and exercise but always quit after a week or two. Her obesity was definitely a factor in my decision to break up with her. I simply was no longer attracted to her. Sex was basically a chore: looking at those fat rolls and stretch marks all that time was not pleasant. :glare:
I was with the obese version of her for so long that I forgot what it was like to have sex with a fit chick. Fortunately, since we broke up I've been with a couple fit, regular sized girls, and had a way better experience than I ever had with the fat version of my ex. Breaking up with her was one of the best decisions in my life.
So, yeah, I'd endorse divorcing a fat spouse, at least if there are no children in the marriage.
Edit: Meant to say borderline morbid obesity, not just obesity.
Run Jaba, before Meri catches you!
Quote from: stjaba on March 18, 2013, 10:29:16 PM
My ex-girlfriend of 4.5 years went from being average weight to borderline morbid obesity (135 lbs at 5'2 to about 185 lbs, for a BMI of 35). For years, she "tried" to diet and exercise but always quit after a week or two. Her obesity was definitely a factor in my decision to break up with her. I simply was no longer attracted to her. Sex was basically a chore: looking at those fat rolls and stretch marks all that time was not pleasant. :glare:
I was with the obese version of her for so long that I forgot what it was like to have sex with a fit chick. Fortunately, since we broke up I've been with a couple fit, regular sized girls, and had a way better experience than I ever had with the fat version of my ex. Breaking up with her was one of the best decisions in my life.
So, yeah, I'd endorse divorcing a fat spouse, at least if there are no children in the marriage.
Edit: Meant to say borderline morbid obesity, not just obesity.
185lb, even at 5'2", is so definitely not "borderline morbid obesity".
But you were also not married, so the standards are quite different. -_-
90 kg is definitely fat. I'm taller than most girls and I've never gone beyond the low 70s. Not even after months on steroids (and trust me, you can't fucking stop eating on those).
The again maybe fat means something different in the US.
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 10:50:14 PM
185lb, even at 5'2", is so definitely not "borderline morbid obesity".
But you were also not married, so the standards are quite different. -_-
I used to think that also. But morbid obesity is technically defined as a BMI of 35+, and 5'2" / 185 lb is a BMI of 35.
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PMI support the right of people to decide for themselves how they feel about how they look.
I don't know what that even means. :huh:
Looks are external and one of the criteria people are being judged by others. Just as we can't decide we are intelligent (when we are dumb), we are nice (when we are assholes) or we smell nice (when we have bad hygiene), we can't decide that we look good if we do not.
Sure, different people have different standards - some people may be chubby chasers, some people may be into body odors etc - but that does not change the fact that others judge us based on our appearance, and no amount of self-deception will change that.
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 02:06:13 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 12:42:02 PM
There is a world of difference between 'watching what you eat but not actively dieting' and 'eating whatever you want'.
To my mind, "actively dieting" = trying to reduce one's weight by diet, and "watching what one eats" = trying to maintain one's weight (that is, not increase) by diet.
I think dieting is a wrong approach as it assumes you are on some special treatment that will end when you get slimmer. This is wrong both psychologically and physiologically.
In order to be fit, you need to change your lifestyle and essentially lead a healthy life - including being health-conscious about what you eat. Weight loss is a side benefit, but it should not be a goal (because if it is, you will be stuck in a yo-yo nightmare).
Quote from: Ideologue on March 18, 2013, 08:28:09 PM
However, you're all misogynists. Unlike me. :)
Oh? That why all of your relationships have been successful, Ide?
I'm not misogynist. I will confess to having grown a bit fatalist, at least in terms of relationships.
Having said all of that - to answer the original question: no, I wouldn't consider weight gain in and of itself to be sufficient reason for divorce.
Quote from: Ideologue on March 18, 2013, 08:28:09 PM
However, you're all misogynists. Unlike me. :)
That's not really fair. Some of us are misanthropes, so the title misogynist puts the emphasis in the wrong place. And then there's Valmy who's an utterly enlightened ball of light.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 19, 2013, 02:00:48 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 18, 2013, 08:28:09 PM
However, you're all misogynists. Unlike me. :)
That's not really fair. Some of us are misanthropes, so the title misogynist puts the emphasis in the wrong place. And then there's Valmy who's an utterly enlightened ball of light.
When you are a ball, you can't really want fat people to be dumped by their spouses. :contract:
Quote from: fahdiz on March 19, 2013, 01:56:36 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 18, 2013, 08:28:09 PM
However, you're all misogynists. Unlike me. :)
Oh? That why all of your relationships have been successful, Ide?
I'm not misogynist. I will confess to having grown a bit fatalist, at least in terms of relationships.
Having said all of that - to answer the original question: no, I wouldn't consider weight gain in and of itself to be sufficient reason for divorce.
OK, I DIDN'T MEAN YOU. Jeez!
To paraphrase the man, in the long run, no relationship is successful.
I think that's another thing - people have this idea about relationships (or, if you think about it, not just relationships, but all kinds of other stuff, like jobs, or "life happiness") that there is a point in life where you can say "ok I got what I wanted", sit on your laurels and do nothing.
Not only it would make you miserable in the end due to boredom, it does not work like this - every aspect of life is constant striving, a constant effort to push oneself to something more. If you stop moving, you are in fact moving backwards - this is why relationships fall apart - because there is nothing new in them and people let themselves go.
Well put as always.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 18, 2013, 10:52:27 PM
90 kg is definitely fat. I'm taller than most girls and I've never gone beyond the low 70s. Not even after months on steroids (and trust me, you can't fucking stop eating on those).
The again maybe fat means something different in the US.
One of the problems with obesity in US is that there is definitely a normalization of deviance effect in play. American diet is definitely way too heavy on crap food and sugary drinks, and as people expand around you by consuming that toxic mix, being of normal weight seems like being malnourished.
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 06:43:33 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on March 18, 2013, 10:52:27 PM
90 kg is definitely fat. I'm taller than most girls and I've never gone beyond the low 70s. Not even after months on steroids (and trust me, you can't fucking stop eating on those).
The again maybe fat means something different in the US.
One of the problems with obesity in US is that there is definitely a normalization of deviance effect in play. American diet is definitely way too heavy on crap food and sugary drinks, and as people expand around you by consuming that toxic mix, being of normal weight seems like being malnourished.
Three words: fructose corn syrup.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 06:45:05 AM
Three words: fructose corn syrup.
I think if we gulped down sugary drinks with sucrose in the same quantities, we would have the same problem. The fundamental problem is that sugary drinks infuse a lot of calories into you, but not only not make you feel full, but actually make you feel hungrier after a while. Personally, I can modify my weight a great deal just by controlling how much sugary crap I consume.
Exactly. :D
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 06:43:33 AM
One of the problems with obesity in US is that there is definitely a normalization of deviance effect in play. American diet is definitely way too heavy on crap food and sugary drinks, and as people expand around you by consuming that toxic mix, being of normal weight seems like being malnourished.
The weird thing is it always was heavy on crap food and sugary drinks. Only in recent decades did it really start to change things.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 19, 2013, 02:00:48 AM
And then there's Valmy who's an utterly enlightened ball of light.
I am glad my poorly thought out posts usually made through the haze of sleep deprivation coupled with a caffeine buzz gets that across so well :cool:
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 07:25:26 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 06:43:33 AM
One of the problems with obesity in US is that there is definitely a normalization of deviance effect in play. American diet is definitely way too heavy on crap food and sugary drinks, and as people expand around you by consuming that toxic mix, being of normal weight seems like being malnourished.
The weird thing is it always was heavy on crap food and sugary drinks. Only in recent decades did it really start to change things.
Not sure this is true:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic8.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F4f411764eab8ea2d1b00001a-620-444%2Famerican-sugar-consumption.jpg&hash=7a335ffbd6311a8fc029685d69727d3eac2f1886)
I don't think crap food is as much of a factor as sugar intake, but that too IMO got worse, with fast food proliferation. Maybe consuming hamburgers and fries isn't much worse for the weight than consuming the same amount of calories in salads, but the easy availability of them leads people to consume them more often, whereas previously they would've just weathered a slight sense of hunger.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 02:51:38 AM
I think that's another thing - people have this idea about relationships (or, if you think about it, not just relationships, but all kinds of other stuff, like jobs, or "life happiness") that there is a point in life where you can say "ok I got what I wanted", sit on your laurels and do nothing.
Not only it would make you miserable in the end due to boredom, it does not work like this - every aspect of life is constant striving, a constant effort to push oneself to something more. If you stop moving, you are in fact moving backwards - this is why relationships fall apart - because there is nothing new in them and people let themselves go.
You are constantly striving and pushing yourself in every aspect of life at the same time? Sounds rather exhausting. I only have 24 hours in a day.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 01:29:55 AM
I think dieting is a wrong approach as it assumes you are on some special treatment that will end when you get slimmer. This is wrong both psychologically and physiologically.
In order to be fit, you need to change your lifestyle and essentially lead a healthy life - including being health-conscious about what you eat. Weight loss is a side benefit, but it should not be a goal (because if it is, you will be stuck in a yo-yo nightmare).
Absolutely. So why does everyone continue to focus on "fat" instead of on health? It's never, "Wow, she looks so unhealthy!" No, it's "Look at that fat cow! No way I'd fuck her!" (Or in Marti's case, "him".) Or "Christ, she's huge! That's disgusting!"
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of empathy for people who are overweight/obese/morbidly obese. If it were easy, no one would be fat. It's hard to lose weight, and harder yet to keep it off. It requires a monumental shift in thinking and acting, which we know is not an easy thing to do.
And by the way, "morbidly obese" is 100 pounds or more overweight, not 35 BMI or higher. (Not aimed at you, Marti; I just don't remember who made the comment.) Given that the BMI doesn't measure muscle mass in any way, no doctor worth his or her salt would diagnose someone as "morbidly obese" based on the BMI, unless it was well over 40. The 100-pound mark, however, can easily be tailored to the individual based on what their "natural" weight should be. A woman at 185 pounds and 5'5" is NOT morbidly obese. Possibly unattractive to some people, but certainly not ready to die due to her weight, ie morbidly obese.
You all poke at me about this topic, but the reality is that in general, there is an utter lack of compassion for those struggling with their weight. I say this not as someone who worries about her weight (because quite frankly, my doctor told me that I was in great shape for a woman my age, with the number of kids and surgeries that I've had, and the congenital problems that I've dealt with all of my life). I say this as someone who has watched dear friends struggle for years to lose weight because they have to for their health. Women (and men) well over 100 pounds overweight who work really hard for a long time, and still struggle to make the mental changes necessary to keep going. And while they're working their asses off (literally), they are mocked, called ugly, shunned, and treated incredibly poorly.
Sure, I carry an extra 25 pounds around, and for my own vanity want to drop it, but in general, I'm often told that I have a great body for my age. Max certainly seems to enjoy it. But I do see how hard it is for others, and I get really tired of hearing about how "easy" it is to drop the weight. For me, it really isn't that hard. For others, it's a hell of a lot harder.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of empathy for people who are overweight/obese/morbidly obese.
Empathy, yes.
Erections, not so much.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 08:48:15 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of empathy for people who are overweight/obese/morbidly obese.
Empathy, yes.
Erections, not so much.
:yes:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 08:48:15 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of empathy for people who are overweight/obese/morbidly obese.
Empathy, yes.
Erections, not so much.
Hey, that's fair. Would that everyone at least felt the empathy.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:52:26 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 08:48:15 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of empathy for people who are overweight/obese/morbidly obese.
Empathy, yes.
Erections, not so much.
Hey, that's fair. Would that everyone at least felt the empathy.
So in a hypothetical to the article woman: "I'm sorry you're fat"?
Obesity and (lack of) health are linked. You can't really decouple one from another.
On one hand fat people are prone to cardiovascular problems, diabetes and so on.
On the other it's really difficult to gain weight if you follow a healthy lifestyle. I've never met anyone who got fat eating well and exercising regularly. The thing is, most people don't do those things.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 01:25:06 AM
I don't know what that even means. :huh:
Looks are external and one of the criteria people are being judged by others. Just as we can't decide we are intelligent (when we are dumb), we are nice (when we are assholes) or we smell nice (when we have bad hygiene), we can't decide that we look good if we do not.
Sure, different people have different standards - some people may be chubby chasers, some people may be into body odors etc - but that does not change the fact that others judge us based on our appearance, and no amount of self-deception will change that.
I stopped caring a long time ago about others finding me attractive. Some do, some don't. I can't stress over it. Instead, I focus on making myself happy in how I look and appear. I do what I can to avoid making others uncomfortable around me (ie smell nice, wash regularly, etc.), but in general, I don't really care what others like or dislike when they look at me.
Quote from: Ideologue on March 18, 2013, 08:15:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 18, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 18, 2013, 12:29:45 PM
This thread: :rolleyes:
You support the fat acceptance movement?
I support the right of people to decide for themselves how they feel about how they look.
Well, I support the right of people to decide for themselves what they find attractive. WHERE IS YOUR LIBERTARIAN GOD NOW?
Also, I dunno if it's harder for women to lose weight. It's pretty hard to eat two-thirds to half your daily expenditure of calories regardless of gender, I imagine. I know I'm pretty hungry (though actually one does get a bit used to it, it's much easier than it was a couple of weeks ago).
I'm dieting myself - I don't find hunger all that troublesome. What I hate is that, after doing it for a couple of months, I get tired very easily.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 01:29:55 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 02:06:13 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 12:42:02 PM
There is a world of difference between 'watching what you eat but not actively dieting' and 'eating whatever you want'.
To my mind, "actively dieting" = trying to reduce one's weight by diet, and "watching what one eats" = trying to maintain one's weight (that is, not increase) by diet.
I think dieting is a wrong approach as it assumes you are on some special treatment that will end when you get slimmer. This is wrong both psychologically and physiologically.
In order to be fit, you need to change your lifestyle and essentially lead a healthy life - including being health-conscious about what you eat. Weight loss is a side benefit, but it should not be a goal (because if it is, you will be stuck in a yo-yo nightmare).
I basically agree, with the caveat that many people want to decrease their size in a reasonable time-frame if they are overweight. The end result of dieting should be a transition into ongoing healthy eating and exercise patterns. Obviously, if you go right back to eating the way that got ypu to increase in the first place, you will increase again.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 19, 2013, 08:56:20 AM
Obesity and (lack of) health are linked. You can't really decouple one from another.
On one hand fat people are prone to cardiovascular problems, diabetes and so on.
On the other it's really difficult to gain weight if you follow a healthy lifestyle. I've never met anyone who got fat eating well and exercising regularly. The thing is, most people don't do those things.
The real problem is that many of us have jobs that enforce sedentary habits - exercise is an "extra" done in free time; our working hours are spend sitting at a desk. We who have such occupations have to learn to eat accordingly and make the time to exercise, neither of which is easy.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
Sure, I carry an extra 25 pounds around, and for my own vanity want to drop it, but in general, I'm often told that I have a great body for my age. Max certainly seems to enjoy it. But I do see how hard it is for others, and I get really tired of hearing about how "easy" it is to drop the weight. For me, it really isn't that hard. For others, it's a hell of a lot harder.
As skeptical as you generally are about so many things, I'm surprised you fall for their (those who "can't" lose weight) BS.
My sense is that most people who "can't lose weight" are probably foodaholics, similar to how an alcoholic just "can't stop" drinking even though that might seem like the easiest thing in the world to everyone else.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 19, 2013, 08:56:20 AM
Obesity and (lack of) health are linked. You can't really decouple one from another.
On one hand fat people are prone to cardiovascular problems, diabetes and so on.
On the other it's really difficult to gain weight if you follow a healthy lifestyle. I've never met anyone who got fat eating well and exercising regularly. The thing is, most people don't do those things.
You're right. However, moving from a sedentary lifestyle as an adult into a healthy lifestyle is hard. Really freaking hard if you come from a family who for generations have only known a sedentary life. Judging others because they don't know or understand or know how best to change seems ridiculous at best.
So, they go with what they know: diets. Which never ends well for anyone. It's only been in the past decade that the idea of changing your lifestyle instead of dieting has come into the forefront of thought. Before, it was always, "Diet to lose weight!" Well, that's all well and good, except that it's counter-productive. These days, we're focusing more on living a healthy lifestyle instead, and guess what? Weights are going down in the US. There are fewer overweight and obese children today than there were 10 years ago. Adults are making better lifestyle choices. But it takes time.
And in the meantime, yes, some people are going to say, "You know what, fuck it, and fuck you. I'm making changes in my life, and if I'm not dropping pounds the way that you think I should, fuck you." My best friend walks 3 miles every day, watches her calories, and is still over 300 pounds at 5'10". Sure, she eats more than she should on occasion still, and doesn't exercise as much as she could, but she's made huge changes in her life, and her body is responding well to it, even if she's only losing about a pound a month. Should she be made to feel ugly and unattractive? Should she be shunned and ostracized? Or should she say, "Look at me! I'm awesome! I'm big, and I'm beautiful!"?
You guys would call that being a fat apologist. I say that's owning who you are, and loving who you are, regardless of how others may perceive you. The woman in the article appears to be doing that very thing.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 09:18:44 AM
And in the meantime, yes, some people are going to say, "You know what, fuck it, and fuck you. I'm making changes in my life, and if I'm not dropping pounds the way that you think I should, fuck you." My best friend walks 3 miles every day, watches her calories, and is still over 300 pounds at 5'10". Sure, she eats more than she should on occasion still, and doesn't exercise as much as she could, but she's made huge changes in her life, and her body is responding well to it, even if she's only losing about a pound a month.
I think the recurring theme to this thread has been that most of us disapprove of people who have given up & aren't even trying anymore. I doubt most of us would be critical of someone who's still trying to lose weight, unless maybe they just say they're trying but really just half-assing it.
QuoteShould she be made to feel ugly and unattractive? Should she be shunned and ostracized?
That's a bit harsh, though I guess that's a good motivator for some people. It would be for me.
QuoteOr should she say, "Look at me! I'm awesome! I'm big, and I'm beautiful!"?
Whoa, there. Let's not get crazy. Nothing is beautiful at 300 lbs. That mentality causes people to coast. Fat Acceptance FTL.
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 09:16:22 AM
As skeptical as you generally are about so many things, I'm surprised you fall for their (those who "can't" lose weight) BS.
It's not BS, nor is it physical. Losing weight requires a monumental shift in thinking, as I said before. That's where the "can't" comes in. For some, making that shift isn't so hard. For others, it's near impossible.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 09:28:29 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 09:16:22 AM
As skeptical as you generally are about so many things, I'm surprised you fall for their (those who "can't" lose weight) BS.
It's not BS, nor is it physical. Losing weight requires a monumental shift in thinking, as I said before. That's where the "can't" comes in. For some, making that shift isn't so hard. For others, it's near impossible.
It should be as easy as looking in the mirror & saying "holy crap, I've let myself go" and then making changes in your life. It can't be that hard-- I've done it.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 09:18:44 AM
So, they go with what they know: diets. Which never ends well for anyone.
Gotta disagree on that. :lol: That is, if you accept anecdotal evidence.
QuoteIt's only been in the past decade that the idea of changing your lifestyle instead of dieting has come into the forefront of thought.Before, it was always, "Diet to lose weight!" Well, that's all well and good, except that it's counter-productive. These days, we're focusing more on living a healthy lifestyle instead, and guess what? Weights are going down in the US. There are fewer overweight and obese children today than there were 10 years ago. Adults are making better lifestyle choices. But it takes time.
This is directly contrary to what I've been reading - which is that obesity is worse than ever before, and getting worse all the time. However, I'm willing to be educated otherwise.
QuoteAnd in the meantime, yes, some people are going to say, "You know what, fuck it, and fuck you. I'm making changes in my life, and if I'm not dropping pounds the way that you think I should, fuck you." My best friend walks 3 miles every day, watches her calories, and is still over 300 pounds at 5'10". Sure, she eats more than she should on occasion still, and doesn't exercise as much as she could, but she's made huge changes in her life, and her body is responding well to it, even if she's only losing about a pound a month. Should she be made to feel ugly and unattractive? Should she be shunned and ostracized? Or should she say, "Look at me! I'm awesome! I'm big, and I'm beautiful!"?
You guys would call that being a fat apologist. I say that's owning who you are, and loving who you are, regardless of how others may perceive you. The woman in the article appears to be doing that very thing.
No doubt people should feel good about themselves rather than bad. Problem is that pesky reality won't change just because one adopts some feel-good attitudes. I have nothing against having the "fuck you" attitude towards judgmental strangers. But fooling yourself about your own health is simply stupid.
In the case of the women in the article, the issue isn't some asshole strangers judging her, but alienation from her husband. She forces him to make a choice: her way or the highway. He chooses her way and so she "won". Imagine if the genders were reveresed and his inability to stop drinking was the issue he "won" on.
It isn't his fault he does not find her attractive at her new "fat is beautiful" size - while he misses her companionship enough to put up with it, this is hardly the ideal solution for either of them.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 09:33:23 AM
This is directly contrary to what I've been reading - which is that obesity is worse than ever before, and getting worse all the time. However, I'm willing to be educated otherwise.
According to CDC adult women's obesity has remained static from 1999-2010 but adult men's was increasing.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db82.pdf
But yeah childhood obesity doesn't look good.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity_child_07_08/obesity_child_07_08.pdf
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 09:25:44 AM
I think the recurring theme to this thread has been that most of us disapprove of people who have given up & aren't even trying anymore. I doubt most of us would be critical of someone who's still trying to lose weight, unless maybe they just say they're trying but really just half-assing it.
And you know, just by looking at someone, where they fall? Even you spouse could be saying, "I give up!" while still trying to watch what she eats, move around more, and make small changes that you don't notice. I know that I don't tell Max every change I make in my life, and yet he does hear me say, "I'm done!"
Quote
That's a bit harsh, though I guess that's a good motivator for some people. It would be for me.
And judgmental, and cruel, and unnecessary.
Quote
Whoa, there. Let's not get crazy. Nothing is beautiful at 300 lbs. That mentality causes people to coast. Fat Acceptance FTL.
That's where your opinion doesn't get to become fact. I happen to think my best friend IS beautiful. So does her fiance. I worry about her health, as does he, but her weight doesn't make her ugly.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 09:39:50 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 09:33:23 AM
This is directly contrary to what I've been reading - which is that obesity is worse than ever before, and getting worse all the time. However, I'm willing to be educated otherwise.
According to CDC adult women's obesity has remained static from 1999-2010 but adult men's was increasing.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db82.pdf
But yeah childhood obesity doesn't look good.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity_child_07_08/obesity_child_07_08.pdf
CDC says: (http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/childhood.html)
Quote•Obesity and extreme obesity among U.S. low-income, preschool-aged children went down for the first time in recent years, according to CDC's first national study.1
•From 2003 through 2010, the prevalence of obesity decreased slightly from 15.21% to 14.94%. Similarly, the prevalence of extreme obesity decreased from 2.22% to 2.07%.1
•However, from 1998 through 2003, the prevalence of obesity increased from 13.05% to 15.21%, and the prevalence of extreme obesity increased from 1.75% to 2.22%.1
•Extreme obesity significantly decreased among all racial groups except American Indians/Alaska Natives. The greatest decrease was among 2-year old and Asian/Pacific Islander children.1
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 09:51:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 09:39:50 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 09:33:23 AM
This is directly contrary to what I've been reading - which is that obesity is worse than ever before, and getting worse all the time. However, I'm willing to be educated otherwise.
According to CDC adult women's obesity has remained static from 1999-2010 but adult men's was increasing.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db82.pdf
But yeah childhood obesity doesn't look good.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity_child_07_08/obesity_child_07_08.pdf
CDC says: (http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/childhood.html)
Quote•Obesity and extreme obesity among U.S. low-income, preschool-aged children went down for the first time in recent years, according to CDC's first national study.1
•From 2003 through 2010, the prevalence of obesity decreased slightly from 15.21% to 14.94%. Similarly, the prevalence of extreme obesity decreased from 2.22% to 2.07%.1
•However, from 1998 through 2003, the prevalence of obesity increased from 13.05% to 15.21%, and the prevalence of extreme obesity increased from 1.75% to 2.22%.1
•Extreme obesity significantly decreased among all racial groups except American Indians/Alaska Natives. The greatest decrease was among 2-year old and Asian/Pacific Islander children.1
I'm not sure I'd cite the slight decrease for low-income children given that it isn't mentioned as significant and the percent change is just that - slight. Actually that was my exact reason for not mentioning it.
I think we are seeing a societal shift in how we think about weight and obesity and health.
Or maybe not so much a shift in HOW we think about obesity, but rather a shift to simply thinking about it a lot more to begin with.
When I was a kid, nobody talked to us about health and obesity - the only message I recall hearing about being fat when I was in elementary and junior high were horror stories about kids with eating disorders.
There were certainly fat kids around, and they were treated poorly, of course, but it was just kind of a fact of life.
Now, there is a very noticeable and concerted effort to educate kids about their own health, and a much more straightforward and (IMO) healthy message that being fit is not something that some people just have and others do not, but instead is the outcome of particular choices made.
I was never told I should be concerned about my weight by my parents, even though my paternal grandfather died of a heart attack in his fifties (obese) and my father is obese. I was fat as a kid (or at least became so in high school), but it was never really brought up as something I should worry about, until *I* started worrying about it in my twenties.
I won't make that mistake with my son. He has the genetics to have a weight issue if he doesn't take some care with his eating and activity habits, and I intend to make sure he is perfectly aware of that. Maybe he ends up overweight anyway, but if he does it won't be because he wasn't aware that he is at risk for it.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 09:33:23 AM
Gotta disagree on that. :lol: That is, if you accept anecdotal evidence.
It works on the short-term, but diets have proven to be incredibly ineffective in the long-term. The only way to keep weight off is through life-style changes that are permanent, as opposed to fad diets, or even diet plans like Weight Watchers.
Quote
This is directly contrary to what I've been reading - which is that obesity is worse than ever before, and getting worse all the time. However, I'm willing to be educated otherwise.
See my post to garbon.
Quote
No doubt people should feel good about themselves rather than bad. Problem is that pesky reality won't change just because one adopts some feel-good attitudes. I have nothing against having the "fuck you" attitude towards judgmental strangers. But fooling yourself about your own health is simply stupid.
What part of what I posted shows my friend being stupid about her health? She's made massive changes to her lifestyle. Her weight is trending down. Her health is better than it's been in a decade. She knows that she still has a long way to go, and is continuing down the right path. How is that "fooling" herself about her own health? By saying, "I own who I am, and I am beautiful" she has the self-esteem to keep going in that direction. The other option is to listen to all of the people calling her fat, and ugly, and gross, which will send her into depression, which will undo all the work she's already put in.
QuoteIn the case of the women in the article, the issue isn't some asshole strangers judging her, but alienation from her husband. She forces him to make a choice: her way or the highway. He chooses her way and so she "won". Imagine if the genders were reveresed and his inability to stop drinking was the issue he "won" on.
It isn't his fault he does not find her attractive at her new "fat is beautiful" size - while he misses her companionship enough to put up with it, this is hardly the ideal solution for either of them.
Read the article again. Yes, she's embracing her shape, but she's STILL working on being healthy.
What she gave up on was the idea that she had to be thin to be beautiful. And if her husband doesn't agree, then he needs to go. If he's willing to take her as she is, well, that's on him. God knows that plenty of women have stayed with their alcoholic husbands because ultimately, they were better off with them (in their mind) than without.
I want to touch on the bolded part again. She's not saying that she's given up on being healthy. She's continuing the changes that they made together. What she's giving up on is the idea that in order to be beautiful, she has to be thin. Instead, she's saying, "You know what, fuck you all (husband included). I AM beautiful right now. Who I am is beautiful. Take it or leave it."
I have zero problem with that.
Quote from: Berkut on March 19, 2013, 09:59:01 AM
I think we are seeing a societal shift in how we think about weight and obesity and health.
Or maybe not so much a shift in HOW we think about obesity, but rather a shift to simply thinking about it a lot more to begin with.
When I was a kid, nobody talked to us about health and obesity - the only message I recall hearing about being fat when I was in elementary and junior high were horror stories about kids with eating disorders.
There were certainly fat kids around, and they were treated poorly, of course, but it was just kind of a fact of life.
Now, there is a very noticeable and concerted effort to educate kids about their own health, and a much more straightforward and (IMO) healthy message that being fit is not something that some people just have and others do not, but instead is the outcome of particular choices made.
I was never told I should be concerned about my weight by my parents, even though my paternal grandfather died of a heart attack in his fifties (obese) and my father is obese. I was fat as a kid (or at least became so in high school), but it was never really brought up as something I should worry about, until *I* started worrying about it in my twenties.
I won't make that mistake with my son. He has the genetics to have a weight issue if he doesn't take some care with his eating and activity habits, and I intend to make sure he is perfectly aware of that. Maybe he ends up overweight anyway, but if he does it won't be because he wasn't aware that he is at risk for it.
:yes:
I agree completely, Berk. I think that that is where we're headed, and it's going to make a difference with time. The bolded part in particular is the important bit.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 09:51:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 09:39:50 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 09:33:23 AM
This is directly contrary to what I've been reading - which is that obesity is worse than ever before, and getting worse all the time. However, I'm willing to be educated otherwise.
According to CDC adult women's obesity has remained static from 1999-2010 but adult men's was increasing.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db82.pdf
But yeah childhood obesity doesn't look good.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity_child_07_08/obesity_child_07_08.pdf
CDC says: (http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/childhood.html)
Quote•Obesity and extreme obesity among U.S. low-income, preschool-aged children went down for the first time in recent years, according to CDC's first national study.1
•From 2003 through 2010, the prevalence of obesity decreased slightly from 15.21% to 14.94%. Similarly, the prevalence of extreme obesity decreased from 2.22% to 2.07%.1
•However, from 1998 through 2003, the prevalence of obesity increased from 13.05% to 15.21%, and the prevalence of extreme obesity increased from 1.75% to 2.22%.1
•Extreme obesity significantly decreased among all racial groups except American Indians/Alaska Natives. The greatest decrease was among 2-year old and Asian/Pacific Islander children.1
You are looking at statistics concerning
one target population. The linked statistics state "Obesity and extreme obesity rates decline among
low-income preschool children". However, if one examines *all* children, from the link posted on the same site directly below the stuff you posted (and linked by garbon), the picture is less rosy - it shows an overall
increase, with 2-5 years for some reason spiking in 2003 and declining thereafter. Only wishful thinking can make those graphs look good.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity_child_07_08/obesity_child_07_08.htm
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
Read the article again. Yes, she's embracing her shape, but she's STILL working on being healthy. What she gave up on was the idea that she had to be thin to be beautiful. And if her husband doesn't agree, then he needs to go. If he's willing to take her as she is, well, that's on him. God knows that plenty of women have stayed with their alcoholic husbands because ultimately, they were better off with them (in their mind) than without.
I want to touch on the bolded part again. She's not saying that she's given up on being healthy. She's continuing the changes that they made together. What she's giving up on is the idea that in order to be beautiful, she has to be thin. Instead, she's saying, "You know what, fuck you all (husband included). I AM beautiful right now. Who I am is beautiful. Take it or leave it."
I have zero problem with that.
I think you are reading into the article things that aren't there. I only saw these two bits that mention anything regarding health and they don't really show she's continuing any changes.
QuoteMy health was fine; I worked out regularly and my weight didn't prevent me from doing activities I enjoyed; I had a husband who loved me. Maybe the struggle to be thin was causing me more pain than it was worth? Maybe learning to love my fat body was a smarter goal than losing weight?
QuoteWe both try to get plenty of exercise (he's more into weightlifting; I like swimming)
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 09:13:18 AM
The real problem is that many of us have jobs that enforce sedentary habits - exercise is an "extra" done in free time; our working hours are spend sitting at a desk. We who have such occupations have to learn to eat accordingly and make the time to exercise, neither of which is easy.
I think exercise is vastly over-rated, at least when it comes to weight loss. It doesn't burn that many calories, it is a chore that is very hard to keep at long term, and it may raise your caloric intake requirements. I think being sensible about what you eat has a much bigger impact than an unsustainable exercise regimen.
I'm not going to shun someone who's fat. But I will ignore them when it comes to mating rituals. That's not a conscious decision. I simply don't find fat people attractive, just as I don't fancy walking sticks.
My boss is obese and I haven't seen anyone insult him or shun him.
As for how hard it is to change habits, let me continue with him as an example: After years of half-assed diets and 'this is too hard' he was recently diagnosed with a deadly mix of hypertension, faulty heart valve and severe dilation of the aorta. It literally took the doctors to tell him he's going to die to make something about his habits. He's managed to lose a lot of weight this past year, despite being unable to exercise at all (his aorta could blow up). Sadly after a year of effort his body is getting used to the new norm and he is stalling, still in danger zone.
Like your friend, he should have never got there in the first place. If he had done half what he's doing now for the last 20 years, he'd be in top shape and would not be facing frightening odds on open heart surgery. That he is doing it now certainly proves he could have done it all along.
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 09:31:25 AM
It should be as easy as looking in the mirror & saying "holy crap, I've let myself go" and then making changes in your life. It can't be that hard-- I've done it.
I don't think that's easy at all, actually. People are very good at lying to themselves, since they're lying to a receptive audience.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 10:05:23 AM
You are looking at statistics concerning one target population. The linked statistics state "Obesity and extreme obesity rates decline among low-income preschool children". However, if one examines *all* children, from the link posted on the same site directly below the stuff you posted (and linked by garbon), the picture is less rosy - it shows an overall increase, with 2-5 years for some reason spiking in 2003 and declining thereafter. Only wishful thinking can make those graphs look good.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity_child_07_08/obesity_child_07_08.htm
That was true through 2010, but I'm fairly sure that I saw a report from the schools showing that childhood obesity rates have stagnated if not started to go down. The problem is that they've changed their stats-taking method on the CDC, which means that you can't compare any stats from 2011-2013 to anything prior to that.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 10:09:51 AM
I think you are reading into the article things that aren't there. I only saw these two bits that mention anything regarding health and they don't really show she's continuing any changes.
QuoteMy health was fine; I worked out regularly and my weight didn't prevent me from doing activities I enjoyed; I had a husband who loved me. Maybe the struggle to be thin was causing me more pain than it was worth? Maybe learning to love my fat body was a smarter goal than losing weight?
QuoteWe both try to get plenty of exercise (he's more into weightlifting; I like swimming)
:huh:
Her health is fine, and she gets plenty of exercise via swimming. How does that not say what I said?
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
It works on the short-term, but diets have proven to be incredibly ineffective in the long-term. The only way to keep weight off is through life-style changes that are permanent, as opposed to fad diets, or even diet plans like Weight Watchers.
Agreed, any plan to lose weigh by dieting is ineffective unless it is combined with a plan to maintain healthy habits thereafter. That isn't the same as 'dieting doesn't work'. It's a tool, and it works for a particular task.
Quote
See my post to garbon.
Unfortunately, your cite doesn't say what you think it does.
Quote
What part of what I posted shows my friend being stupid about her health? She's made massive changes to her lifestyle. Her weight is trending down. Her health is better than it's been in a decade. She knows that she still has a long way to go, and is continuing down the right path. How is that "fooling" herself about her own health? By saying, "I own who I am, and I am beautiful" she has the self-esteem to keep going in that direction. The other option is to listen to all of the people calling her fat, and ugly, and gross, which will send her into depression, which will undo all the work she's already put in.
If she is actually *getting* healthy, then nothing. If she's of the view that she already *is* healthy and so needs make no change, than everything.
QuoteRead the article again. Yes, she's embracing her shape, but she's STILL working on being healthy
Nope, she simply asserts that she is *already* healthy.
QuoteWhat she gave up on was the idea that she had to be thin to be beautiful. And if her husband doesn't agree, then he needs to go. If he's willing to take her as she is, well, that's on him. God knows that plenty of women have stayed with their alcoholic husbands because ultimately, they were better off with them (in their mind) than without.
Sure - so can we now list "drunk acceptance" alongside "fat acceptance"?
QuoteI want to touch on the bolded part again. She's not saying that she's given up on being healthy. She's continuing the changes that they made together. What she's giving up on is the idea that in order to be beautiful, she has to be thin. Instead, she's saying, "You know what, fuck you all (husband included). I AM beautiful right now. Who I am is beautiful. Take it or leave it."
First, her healthiness is based purely on her self-assessment.
Second, if he doesn't find the fat her beautiful, that's not some moral failing on his part. He *still* doesn't find her beautiful - he's willing to put up with her being (to him) ugly. Frankly, that sucks in a relationship.
I think people ought to work to accomodate their partners' preferences, not simply say "fuck you - I'm fat/I drink/I smoke, deal with it or get the fuck out". What that demonstrates is that the person doing the demanding values eating to excess, drinking to excess or smoking over their partner. It's narcissism, particularly where what the partner is complaining about is an unhealthy as well as unattractive lifestyle choice.
This isn't to say the woman in the article should magically transform herself into a supermodel. Just that she appears to be giving up any attempt at trying. I can't applaud that choice.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 19, 2013, 10:12:57 AM
I'm not going to shun someone who's fat. But I will ignore them when it comes to mating rituals. That's not a conscious decision. I simply don't find fat people attractive, just as I don't fancy walking sticks.
My boss is obese and I haven't seen anyone insult him or shun him.
As for how hard it is to change habits, let me continue with him as an example: After years of half-assed diets and 'this is too hard' he was recently diagnosed with a deadly mix of hypertension, faulty heart valve and severe dilation of the aorta. It literally took the doctors to tell him he's going to die to make something about his habits. He's managed to lose a lot of weight this past year, despite being unable to exercise at all (his aorta could blow up). Sadly after a year of effort his body is getting used to the new norm and he is stalling, still in danger zone.
Like your friend, he should have never got there in the first place. If he had done half what he's doing now for the last 20 years, he'd be in top shape and would not be facing frightening odds on open heart surgery. That he is doing it now certainly proves he could have done it all along.
Given that he doesn't have a time machine and can't go backwards, that's not really very helpful, is it?
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 10:10:38 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 09:13:18 AM
The real problem is that many of us have jobs that enforce sedentary habits - exercise is an "extra" done in free time; our working hours are spend sitting at a desk. We who have such occupations have to learn to eat accordingly and make the time to exercise, neither of which is easy.
I think exercise is vastly over-rated, at least when it comes to weight loss. It doesn't burn that many calories, it is a chore that is very hard to keep at long term, and it may raise your caloric intake requirements. I think being sensible about what you eat has a much bigger impact than an unsustainable exercise regimen.
I agree - exercise isn't for weight loss but for overall health. Losing weight isn't the only goal - better health (and appearance!) is.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 10:24:31 AM
I agree - exercise isn't for weight loss but for overall health. Losing weight isn't the only goal - better health (and appearance!) is.
Exercise keeps you from looking like a skinbag once you *do* drop the weight ;)
It also does engage your metabolism, so weight loss from a combination of healthy eating + exercise is always going to be better weight loss than from just healthy eating.
Incidentally, I gotta say that based on anecdotal evidence, a lot of situations where people can't lose weight despite "trying" does not come from genetics, or even laziness, but actual ignorance of what is and is not healthy.
Unfortunately, as I said before, losing weight and overally improving one's health requires a considerable shift in life style and (unless you are willing to hire a personal chef) a considerable amount of work - something a lot of people are unable or unwilling to do. So they think that if they buy a "healthy" salad at McDonald's or a ready made "health-option" meal at Tesco (or starve themselves with low nutrition food) they are actually trying to lose weight - and then act all surprised, give up and/or blame genetics when this does jack shit.
And let's not forget that in many places healthy food options come with a price tag - or are even unavailable (e.g. a small town with a couple of Tescos/Walmarts, and no farmer's market).
Another example: a couple of days ago I was in a suburban Shoprite, the kind that represents America better than any supermarket in NYC area, and it had a lot of prepared food. While it certainly had a good salad bar and fruit bar section, the hot food section was just atrocious. It was either a whole bunch of deep-friend Chinese food, or a whole bunch of deep fried food products. Very few items were free of that golden shine.
That in my mind isn't a sign of bad choices a Shoprite chef made, but rather a sign of what kind of food Americans consider normal. Of course you have to wash down that mountain of shit with 2 liters of Coke if you want it to slide down your throat at all.
Quote from: Caliga on March 19, 2013, 09:18:14 AM
My sense is that most people who "can't lose weight" are probably foodaholics, similar to how an alcoholic just "can't stop" drinking even though that might seem like the easiest thing in the world to everyone else.
Dude it is bad. I have pretty much come to accept once I am done with this degree program I am probably going to be a Weight Watcher's lifer. I just have to have that accountability.
Quote from: fahdiz on March 19, 2013, 10:39:34 AM
Exercise keeps you from looking like a skinbag once you *do* drop the weight ;)
It also does engage your metabolism, so weight loss from a combination of healthy eating + exercise is always going to be better weight loss than from just healthy eating.
Generally I do not feel hungry after I work out. Weird huh? So I end up eating less.
Not eating after work-out is a mistake and will lead to malnutrition.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 11:22:55 AM
Not eating after work-out is a mistake and will lead to malnutrition.
True. But all I said was I eat less...as in I do not over-eat. Starvation has never been a serious concern of mine :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 11:22:55 AM
Not eating after work-out is a mistake and will lead to malnutrition.
I like to work out on an empty stomach and eat afterward.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
And by the way, "morbidly obese" is 100 pounds or more overweight, not 35 BMI or higher. (Not aimed at you, Marti; I just don't remember who made the comment.) Given that the BMI doesn't measure muscle mass in any way, no doctor worth his or her salt would diagnose someone as "morbidly obese" based on the BMI, unless it was well over 40.
Neither of us are experts. Wikipedia claims:
A BMI of ≥ 35 and experiencing obesity-related health conditions or ≥40–44.9 is morbid obesity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity#cite_note-morbid2007-15
So, a BMI of 35 can include morbid obesity.
Second off, I have seen plenty of medical records now at my job. It's not uncommon to see morbid obesity listed when the patient was less than a 100 pounds overweight.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
You all poke at me about this topic, but the reality is that in general, there is an utter lack of compassion for those struggling with their weight.
I do not find this true at all. I have never heard anybody say 'man I am trying to work out and lose weight but it is really hard' and have the response be 'loser, TRY HARDER' generally everybody gets it or at least gives the person props for trying. But granted I live in a state of fat people.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:43:28 AM
Unfortunately, as I said before, losing weight and overally improving one's health requires a considerable shift in life style and (unless you are willing to hire a personal chef) a considerable amount of work - something a lot of people are unable or unwilling to do. So they think that if they buy a "healthy" salad at McDonald's or a ready made "health-option" meal at Tesco (or starve themselves with low nutrition food) they are actually trying to lose weight - and then act all surprised, give up and/or blame genetics when this does jack shit.
Concur completely. My obese ex used to purchase low calorie desserts. Good in theory- except she'd scarf down several of them a day. :hmm:
Or she would go for a walk- then reward herself with a high calorie/sugar McDonalds iced coffee afterwards, completely negating the value of the walk.
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 11:27:12 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
And by the way, "morbidly obese" is 100 pounds or more overweight, not 35 BMI or higher. (Not aimed at you, Marti; I just don't remember who made the comment.) Given that the BMI doesn't measure muscle mass in any way, no doctor worth his or her salt would diagnose someone as "morbidly obese" based on the BMI, unless it was well over 40.
Neither of us are experts. Wikipedia claims:
A BMI of ≥ 35 and experiencing obesity-related health conditions or ≥40–44.9 is morbid obesity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity#cite_note-morbid2007-15
So, a BMI of 35 can include morbid obesity.
Second off, I have seen plenty of medical records now at my job. It's not uncommon to see morbid obesity listed when the patient was less than a 100 pounds overweight.
And was your 5'5", 185-pound ex "experiencing obesity-related health issues"? Or are you just throwing around terms to make it seem more okay to dump her because she gained a few pounds more than you thought she should?
:lol:
Not only is his ex getting fatter, but apparently she's going through a growth spurt as well. She managed to go from 5'2" to 5'5" in a day. :hmm: How old is she? :unsure:
Quote from: fahdiz on March 19, 2013, 11:26:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 11:22:55 AM
Not eating after work-out is a mistake and will lead to malnutrition.
I like to work out on an empty stomach and eat afterward.
Ideally, you should have a light protein meal before and a carb meal afterwards. :)
But if you have enough energy during the work out without eating before hand it works too I guess. I just can't bench press as much if I have empty stomach.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 11:33:56 AM
And was your 5'5", 185-pound ex "experiencing obesity-related health issues"? Or are you just throwing around terms to make it seem more okay to dump her because she gained a few pounds more than you thought she should?
That was a very significant weight gain, particularly for a gal just 5'2" (not 5'5"). For a young, unmarried guy without kids he deserves a medal for sticking it out as long as he did.
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 11:24:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 11:22:55 AM
Not eating after work-out is a mistake and will lead to malnutrition.
True. But all I said was I eat less...as in I do not over-eat. Starvation has never been a serious concern of mine :lol:
Ok fair enough. :P
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 11:33:33 AM
Or she would go for a walk- then reward herself with a high calorie/sugar McDonalds iced coffee afterwards, completely negating the value of the walk.
I like when people do the opposite-- eat a 900 calorie dessert and then "walk it off" by walking a whole mile :D
Quote from: Barrister on March 18, 2013, 10:50:14 PM
185lb, even at 5'2", is so definitely not "borderline morbid obesity".
Your right. That is really really fat.
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 11:49:55 AM
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 11:33:33 AM
Or she would go for a walk- then reward herself with a high calorie/sugar McDonalds iced coffee afterwards, completely negating the value of the walk.
I like when people do the opposite-- eat a 900 calorie dessert and then "walk it off" by walking a whole mile :D
Better than eating it and not walking.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 11:33:56 AM
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 11:27:12 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
And by the way, "morbidly obese" is 100 pounds or more overweight, not 35 BMI or higher. (Not aimed at you, Marti; I just don't remember who made the comment.) Given that the BMI doesn't measure muscle mass in any way, no doctor worth his or her salt would diagnose someone as "morbidly obese" based on the BMI, unless it was well over 40.
Neither of us are experts. Wikipedia claims:
A BMI of ≥ 35 and experiencing obesity-related health conditions or ≥40–44.9 is morbid obesity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity#cite_note-morbid2007-15
So, a BMI of 35 can include morbid obesity.
Second off, I have seen plenty of medical records now at my job. It's not uncommon to see morbid obesity listed when the patient was less than a 100 pounds overweight.
And was your 5'5", 185-pound ex "experiencing obesity-related health issues"? Or are you just throwing around terms to make it seem more okay to dump her because she gained a few pounds more than you thought she should?
First off, she was 5'2", not 5'5."
Second, she was experiencing the following obesity related symptoms, which I pulled off of Wikipedia:
Stretch marks
depression
social stigmatization
poor mobility
low back pain
obstructive sleep apnea.
There are possibly more, but she didn't see a general physician too often.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 19, 2013, 11:51:51 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 11:49:55 AM
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 11:33:33 AM
Or she would go for a walk- then reward herself with a high calorie/sugar McDonalds iced coffee afterwards, completely negating the value of the walk.
I like when people do the opposite-- eat a 900 calorie dessert and then "walk it off" by walking a whole mile :D
Better than eating it and not walking.
But not by much
One other thing to keep in mind is that BMI for short people is understated compared to average people. A BMI of 35 for a 5'2" person is worse than a BMI of 35 for a 6'2" person. If you don't find a 5'2" person severely overweight at 185 pounds, then you're probably in denial for one reason or another.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:43:28 AM
Incidentally, I gotta say that based on anecdotal evidence, a lot of situations where people can't lose weight despite "trying" does not come from genetics, or even laziness, but actual ignorance of what is and is not healthy.
Unfortunately, as I said before, losing weight and overally improving one's health requires a considerable shift in life style and (unless you are willing to hire a personal chef) a considerable amount of work - something a lot of people are unable or unwilling to do. So they think that if they buy a "healthy" salad at McDonald's or a ready made "health-option" meal at Tesco (or starve themselves with low nutrition food) they are actually trying to lose weight - and then act all surprised, give up and/or blame genetics when this does jack shit.
And let's not forget that in many places healthy food options come with a price tag - or are even unavailable (e.g. a small town with a couple of Tescos/Walmarts, and no farmer's market).
I dunno, my diet is pretty easy to maintain with stuff bought at the corner store (which admittedly stocks vegitables). I'm a terrible cook and hate cooking, so everything has to be easy.
Breakfast:
- 1 apple
- 1 bowl of fat-free yogurt
- 2 melba toasts
Lunch:
- 1 large mixed salad (tomatoes, sliced peppers, sliced spring onions and radishes - no lettice as I don't like it)
- 1 portion of skinless chicken breast, or tuna, or low-fat lunchen meat
- 2 melba toasts
Dinner:
- 1 large serving of steamed green beans, broccoli, and/or cauliflower
- 1 piece of cooked salmon or boneless chicken breast
After dinner snack:
- 1 bowl of chopped strawberries in fat-free yogurt
I vary this by adding more carbs and protien on days I know I will be working out.
Notice that this diet has two each of fruit, vegitables, meat and bread substitute per day (if you are more creative, you can of course replace any of these things with alternatives). Eat this diet, keeping tabs on portions, working out so as not to get too flabby, and anyone will lose weight pretty well guaranteed (or at least so I've found), as it is low in calories and carbs. Then, when desired weight is achieved, start adding stuff to it - cereal at breakfast, for example - until you are neither gaining nor losing.
The big problem is social events. People like to eat out to celebrate stuff or just to have fun; also, to drink booze. These can't easily be avoided without becomming a hermit so they must be dealt with.
I allow myself to eat out at restaurants and the like with friends and family once per week, even when dieting strictly. When simply maintaining, I eat out more often, but balance this with more stringent food control on other days of the week. I did this for five or six years, then got lazy and stopped doing it and started with the recreational type eating - predictably, my weight increased; I'm dieting now to go back to the regime I had before.
This is why I don't agree dieting "doesn't work". It's a tool, and it works if you work it. At least it does for me, and I've never read a plausible mechanism by which it "can't work" for others (physically that is - natirally there are all sorts of psychological reasons it can't work).
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 11:59:56 AM
One other thing to keep in mind is that BMI for short people is understated compared to average people. A BMI of 35 for a 5'2" person is worse than a BMI of 35 for a 6'2" person. If you don't find a 5'2" person severely overweight at 185 pounds, then you're probably in denial for one reason or another.
Yeah, BMI is pretty much worthless at the tall end too.
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 11:59:56 AM
One other thing to keep in mind is that BMI for short people is understated compared to average people. A BMI of 35 for a 5'2" person is worse than a BMI of 35 for a 6'2" person. If you don't find a 5'2" person severely overweight at 185 pounds, then you're probably in denial for one reason or another.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
This is why I don't agree dieting "doesn't work". It's a tool, and it works if you work it. At least it does for me, and I've never read a plausible mechanism by which it "can't work" for others (physically that is - natirally there are all sorts of psychological reasons it can't work).
Yeah, like your meal plan is boring as hell. I'd give it up after about a week, IF I lasted that long. Rule #1 of any diet plan: It has to be something you can and will stick with.
Amazingly, I've managed to lose 25 pounds by eating whatever I want... in smaller quantities. Once I started keeping track of every bite I put in my mouth, I started eating less. Throw in some walking, and I lost weight. It took a while for me to actually start losing weight, but once I did, it shed relatively easily, though not quickly. I'm not much on quick fixes. I want to be able to enjoy my life while I'm also getting healthier. That includes eating food that I enjoy.
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 11:54:02 AM
First off, she was 5'2", not 5'5."
Second, she was experiencing the following obesity related symptoms, which I pulled off of Wikipedia:
Stretch marks
depression
social stigmatization
poor mobility
low back pain
obstructive sleep apnea.
There are possibly more, but she didn't see a general physician too often.
Those are pretty much the only ones that are related to weight gain in the physical sense. (I got stretch marks when I got boobs - they mark quick growth, not necessarily fat growth.) And I'm sorry, but they're certainly not life-threatening. As for the obstructive sleep apnea, I'm curious to know how you know that if she didn't go to the doctor.
Regardless, 185 pounds (even at 5'2") isn't "morbid obesity". Heavier than you wanted, sure, but not morbidly obese.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 12:20:16 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
This is why I don't agree dieting "doesn't work". It's a tool, and it works if you work it. At least it does for me, and I've never read a plausible mechanism by which it "can't work" for others (physically that is - natirally there are all sorts of psychological reasons it can't work).
Yeah, like your meal plan is boring as hell. I'd give it up after about a week, IF I lasted that long. Rule #1 of any diet plan: It has to be something you can and will stick with.
Amazingly, I've managed to lose 25 pounds by eating whatever I want... in smaller quantities. Once I started keeping track of every bite I put in my mouth, I started eating less. Throw in some walking, and I lost weight. It took a while for me to actually start losing weight, but once I did, it shed relatively easily, though not quickly. I'm not much on quick fixes. I want to be able to enjoy my life while I'm also getting healthier. That includes eating food that I enjoy.
Sure, if you have a plan that works for you, go for that. I'm not claiming my plan is the one true way or anything, am I? :huh: Only wanting to eat "exciting" foods is one of those psychological thigamy-jigs I mentioned as a reason why this diet "can't work" for some.
I'm simply refuting the notion that dieting can't be done. It can, but it takes some concious effort - either in planning (which is my preferred way) or obsessive bite-watching (which is yours - though it's something I'd never have the patience to do).
My plan may well be "boring", but to me, variety of foods isn't all that important other than on occasion: I'm happy eating more or less similar stuff every day. To each their own -
so long as it actually works. My diet has the advantage (at least, I find it an advantage) of relatively rapid weight loss - doing it strictly I lose around 8-10 pounds a month.
Keep in mind that the dude was married to her when she was fat. He only seemed to have a problem with it once she started deciding that it was ok to stop trying. From that, it's reasonable to conclude that the fat isn't what made him unattracted, it was the attitude of giving up and deciding fat was cool that turned him off.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:43:28 AM
Incidentally, I gotta say that based on anecdotal evidence, a lot of situations where people can't lose weight despite "trying" does not come from genetics, or even laziness, but actual ignorance of what is and is not healthy.
Unfortunately, as I said before, losing weight and overally improving one's health requires a considerable shift in life style and (unless you are willing to hire a personal chef) a considerable amount of work - something a lot of people are unable or unwilling to do. So they think that if they buy a "healthy" salad at McDonald's or a ready made "health-option" meal at Tesco (or starve themselves with low nutrition food) they are actually trying to lose weight - and then act all surprised, give up and/or blame genetics when this does jack shit.
And let's not forget that in many places healthy food options come with a price tag - or are even unavailable (e.g. a small town with a couple of Tescos/Walmarts, and no farmer's market).
I dunno, my diet is pretty easy to maintain with stuff bought at the corner store (which admittedly stocks vegitables). I'm a terrible cook and hate cooking, so everything has to be easy.
Sorry, maybe I wasn't specific enough, but I wasn't exactly saying that a rich urban lawyer in Canada lives according to what can be seen as a standard. :P
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 12:24:16 PM
Those are pretty much the only ones that are related to weight gain in the physical sense. (I got stretch marks when I got boobs - they mark quick growth, not necessarily fat growth.) And I'm sorry, but they're certainly not life-threatening. As for the obstructive sleep apnea, I'm curious to know how you know that if she didn't go to the doctor.
Regardless, 185 pounds (even at 5'2") isn't "morbid obesity". Heavier than you wanted, sure, but not morbidly obese.
Not sure what you mean "in the physical sense." A 5 second google revealed a linkage between obesity and depression. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080602152913.htm.
With respect to her stretch marks, they came after she gained a lot of weight. I don't think the link between obesity and a health condition could be any more obvious.
With respect to sleep apnea, I said she didn't see a doctor too often, but not never. She had a sleep study conducted and was diagnosed with sleep apnea.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 12:50:31 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:43:28 AM
Incidentally, I gotta say that based on anecdotal evidence, a lot of situations where people can't lose weight despite "trying" does not come from genetics, or even laziness, but actual ignorance of what is and is not healthy.
Unfortunately, as I said before, losing weight and overally improving one's health requires a considerable shift in life style and (unless you are willing to hire a personal chef) a considerable amount of work - something a lot of people are unable or unwilling to do. So they think that if they buy a "healthy" salad at McDonald's or a ready made "health-option" meal at Tesco (or starve themselves with low nutrition food) they are actually trying to lose weight - and then act all surprised, give up and/or blame genetics when this does jack shit.
And let's not forget that in many places healthy food options come with a price tag - or are even unavailable (e.g. a small town with a couple of Tescos/Walmarts, and no farmer's market).
I dunno, my diet is pretty easy to maintain with stuff bought at the corner store (which admittedly stocks vegitables). I'm a terrible cook and hate cooking, so everything has to be easy.
Sorry, maybe I wasn't specific enough, but I wasn't exactly saying that a rich urban lawyer in Canada lives according to what can be seen as a standard. :P
I didn't know that people who are not rich Canadian urban lawyers were disqualified from buying green beans and cans of tuna. :P
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:01:03 PM
I didn't know that people who are not rich Canadian urban lawyers were disqualified from buying green beans and cans of tuna. :P
I think they are disqualified from buying melba toast. :x
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 01:01:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:01:03 PM
I didn't know that people who are not rich Canadian urban lawyers were disqualified from buying green beans and cans of tuna. :P
I think they are disqualified from buying melba toast. :x
I love melba toast. Reminds me of old-time ship's biscuits, only without the weevils. :D
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 01:01:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:01:03 PM
I didn't know that people who are not rich Canadian urban lawyers were disqualified from buying green beans and cans of tuna. :P
I think they are disqualified from buying melba toast. :x
I love melba toast. Reminds me of old-time ship's biscuits, only without the weevils. :D
All of that sounds...dreadful. ;)
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 12:57:00 PM
Not sure what you mean "in the physical sense." A 5 second google revealed a linkage between obesity and depression. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080602152913.htm.
With respect to her stretch marks, they came after she gained a lot of weight. I don't think the link between obesity and a health condition could be any more obvious.
With respect to sleep apnea, I said she didn't see a doctor too often, but not never. She had a sleep study conducted and was diagnosed with sleep apnea.
The definition of morbid is "relating to or resulting from illness". I'm going to go with it's quite a stretch to call stretch marks "relating to or resulting from illness". As for depression, there's a link, but the question is which comes first, the depression or the weight? Either can - and does - lead to the other. Perhaps her issue was depression which led her to being overweight. Not that it seems to matter. She was fat. End of story.
As for the sleep apnea, my 6'2", 145-pound son has sleep apnea. I'm sure you'll argue that hers was directly related to her weight, but it doesn't have to be. Just sayin'.
My hope is that there were a lot of other issues involved in your break up, and weight was a handy excuse. My guess is that is not the case.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 01:06:21 PM
My hope is that there were a lot of other issues involved in your break up, and weight was a handy excuse. My guess is that is not the case.
I'd think depression, sleep apnea and no longer being physically attractive (to Jaba) should be enough. :D
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 19, 2013, 12:46:23 PM
Keep in mind that the dude was married to her when she was fat. He only seemed to have a problem with it once she started deciding that it was ok to stop trying. From that, it's reasonable to conclude that the fat isn't what made him unattracted, it was the attitude of giving up and deciding fat was cool that turned him off.
Well, to be fair ... that and she gained 40 pounds.
He liked her looks at 160, was okay with 180 (when they were married) not so much at 200 and not trying any more.
5'2" and 200 is a BMI of 36. At 160, it's 29.
QuoteWhen I met my husband, I was the thinnest I'd ever been in my adult life. At 5'2" and 160lbs, I was still plump, but he thought I was beautiful.
...
After four years of marriage, I weighed 200 pounds. It was the size I'd been in high school when I felt like an unlovable fat girl, the size I'd promised myself I'd never be again. For a while, I redoubled my efforts to lose weight.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 12:20:16 PM
Yeah, like your meal plan is boring as hell. I'd give it up after about a week, IF I lasted that long. Rule #1 of any diet plan: It has to be something you can and will stick with.
That IMO highlights one of the big problems. People find healthy meals boring, and treat eating them like taking a medicine. They're brought up on exactly the kind of foods that are terrible for them. Of course healthy eating is not going to work long-term in that case without some kind of strong psychological reinforcement.
In that sense I feel that I'm very lucky, because I actually enjoy eating salads and vegetables, feel mostly indifferent about deep-fried food, and abhor overly complex fatty meals. Few things beat a fresh Greek salad with a good dressing based on extra virgin olive oil. If I could only loose that sweet tooth, I would be golden.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 01:04:58 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 01:01:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:01:03 PM
I didn't know that people who are not rich Canadian urban lawyers were disqualified from buying green beans and cans of tuna. :P
I think they are disqualified from buying melba toast. :x
I love melba toast. Reminds me of old-time ship's biscuits, only without the weevils. :D
All of that sounds...dreadful. ;)
It's true. But the type *with* weevils cost extra.
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 12:20:16 PM
Yeah, like your meal plan is boring as hell. I'd give it up after about a week, IF I lasted that long. Rule #1 of any diet plan: It has to be something you can and will stick with.
That IMO highlights one of the big problems. People find healthy meals boring, and treat eating them like taking a medicine. They're brought up on exactly the kind of foods that are terrible for them. Of course healthy eating is not going to work long-term in that case without some kind of strong psychological reinforcement.
In that sense I feel that I'm very lucky, because I actually enjoy eating salads and vegetables, feel mostly indifferent about deep-fried food, and abhor overly complex fatty meals. Few things beat a fresh Greek salad with a good dressing based on extra virgin olive oil. If I could only loose that sweet tooth, I would be golden.
I'd guess your struggles lay in other domains.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 01:14:11 PM
I'd guess your struggles lay in other domains.
Plenty of that, yes, but we're discussing weight control.
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 12:20:16 PM
Yeah, like your meal plan is boring as hell. I'd give it up after about a week, IF I lasted that long. Rule #1 of any diet plan: It has to be something you can and will stick with.
That IMO highlights one of the big problems. People find healthy meals boring, and treat eating them like taking a medicine. They're brought up on exactly the kind of foods that are terrible for them. Of course healthy eating is not going to work long-term in that case without some kind of strong psychological reinforcement.
In that sense I feel that I'm very lucky, because I actually enjoy eating salads and vegetables, feel mostly indifferent about deep-fried food, and abhor overly complex fatty meals. Few things beat a fresh Greek salad with a good dressing based on extra virgin olive oil. If I could only loose that sweet tooth, I would be golden.
Yeah, I was sorta scratching my head over the thought that fresh baked salmon with green beans and broccoli was "boring" - to me, a big part of what makes food tasty is fresh, simple ingredients. But I assumed that the "boring" was directed at the monotony of eating the same stuff every day ... though as I said, one could vary it as much as one likes.
What it is, is low in carbs, and people do love their carbs.
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
That IMO highlights one of the big problems. People find healthy meals boring, and treat eating them like taking a medicine. They're brought up on exactly the kind of foods that are terrible for them. Of course healthy eating is not going to work long-term in that case without some kind of strong psychological reinforcement.
In that sense I feel that I'm very lucky, because I actually enjoy eating salads and vegetables, feel mostly indifferent about deep-fried food, and abhor overly complex fatty meals. Few things beat a fresh Greek salad with a good dressing based on extra virgin olive oil. If I could only loose that sweet tooth, I would be golden.
No, I find bland food boring, not healthy food. :contract:
I love steamed veggies - with lemon juice, cayenne pepper, and a touch of salt. I never cook deep-fried foods, and rarely fry anything. Broiled is my preference, again, with a bit of olive oil and the right spices. One can eat healthy foods that aren't bland and dull.
The food that I eat has never been my problem. I don't care much for chips, fatty foods, or overly processed foods. My issue is portion control, not food choices. Well, that and my sweet tooth, too. :blush: Luckily, I switched to diet soda 10 years ago, and then, only once or twice a week.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
I was sorta scratching my head over the thought that fresh baked salmon with green beans and broccoli was "boring"
I think that sounds very bland and if that's all I had to eat, would try to give up eating.
I'm so glad I have no sweet tooth. I just never want dessert of any kind. I probably eat 10% of the sugar an average person does.
But then I go and have a couple glasses of whiskey. :P
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 01:22:00 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
That IMO highlights one of the big problems. People find healthy meals boring, and treat eating them like taking a medicine. They're brought up on exactly the kind of foods that are terrible for them. Of course healthy eating is not going to work long-term in that case without some kind of strong psychological reinforcement.
In that sense I feel that I'm very lucky, because I actually enjoy eating salads and vegetables, feel mostly indifferent about deep-fried food, and abhor overly complex fatty meals. Few things beat a fresh Greek salad with a good dressing based on extra virgin olive oil. If I could only loose that sweet tooth, I would be golden.
No, I find bland food boring, not healthy food. :contract:
I love steamed veggies - with lemon juice, cayenne pepper, and a touch of salt. I never cook deep-fried foods, and rarely fry anything. Broiled is my preference, again, with a bit of olive oil and the right spices. One can eat healthy foods that aren't bland and dull.
The food that I eat has never been my problem. I don't care much for chips, fatty foods, or overly processed foods. My issue is portion control, not food choices. Well, that and my sweet tooth, too. :blush: Luckily, I switched to diet soda 10 years ago, and then, only once or twice a week.
Wait - you are saying the meals I mentioned were "boring" because I didn't mention the
seasonings? :huh: Is there some reason why you couldn't serve the exact same (say) steamed veggies I describe with "lemon juice, cayenne pepper, and a touch of salt"?
I dodn't mention the seasonings or style of preparation because it's irrelevant to the point, not because they are of necessity absent. Obviously, as long as you aren't adding fat or calories, you can serve them any style you want.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 19, 2013, 01:27:25 PM
But then I go and have a couple glasses of whiskey. :P
:hmm: If I had a couple of glasses of whiskey, I would drop my consumption of sugar by 100%. Other food too, for that matter.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 01:26:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
I was sorta scratching my head over the thought that fresh baked salmon with green beans and broccoli was "boring"
I think that sounds very bland and if that's all I had to eat, would try to give up eating.
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
What do you eat for an average stay at home dinner?
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:28:45 PM
Wait - you are saying the meals I mentioned were "boring" because I didn't mention the seasonings? :huh: Is there some reason why you couldn't serve the exact same (say) steamed veggies I describe with "lemon juice, cayenne pepper, and a touch of salt"?
I dodn't mention the seasonings or style of preparation because it's irrelevant to the point, not because they are of necessity absent. Obviously, as long as you aren't adding fat or calories, you can serve them any style you want.
Well, that and the lack of variety. You implied that you eat the same menu every day. There are some foods that I can do that with (I eat steel-cut oatmeal most mornings for breakfast), but when it comes to my lunches and dinners, I have to have variety.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 12:24:16 PM
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 11:54:02 AM
First off, she was 5'2", not 5'5."
Second, she was experiencing the following obesity related symptoms, which I pulled off of Wikipedia:
Stretch marks
depression
social stigmatization
poor mobility
low back pain
obstructive sleep apnea.
There are possibly more, but she didn't see a general physician too often.
Those are pretty much the only ones that are related to weight gain in the physical sense. (I got stretch marks when I got boobs - they mark quick growth, not necessarily fat growth.) And I'm sorry, but they're certainly not life-threatening. As for the obstructive sleep apnea, I'm curious to know how you know that if she didn't go to the doctor.
Regardless, 185 pounds (even at 5'2") isn't "morbid obesity". Heavier than you wanted, sure, but not morbidly obese.
I am not sure why you have such a dog in this fight. The stretch marks were not caused by quick growth in this case. Sleep apnea is a common problem with people who are fat. He slept with her. Its pretty easy to tell if someone is having trouble breathing when they sleep. not sure why you struck off depression.
Not sure how you are defining morbidly obese here. It is not just merely "heavier than you wanted" its really fat.
My sweet tooth got really bad after I quit smoking 5 years ago. I have gotten it back under control recently, purely due to willpower, but it is still following me around every time I go into the store.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 01:26:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
I was sorta scratching my head over the thought that fresh baked salmon with green beans and broccoli was "boring"
I think that sounds very bland and if that's all I had to eat, would try to give up eating.
Have you ever had good food?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 19, 2013, 12:46:23 PM
Keep in mind that the dude was married to her when she was fat. He only seemed to have a problem with it once she started deciding that it was ok to stop trying. From that, it's reasonable to conclude that the fat isn't what made him unattracted, it was the attitude of giving up and deciding fat was cool that turned him off.
Yeah, I tried to point that out earlier in the thread but BB jumped on me for wanting the impossible.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
Oh, I'd eat the shit out of that.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 01:30:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:28:45 PM
Wait - you are saying the meals I mentioned were "boring" because I didn't mention the seasonings? :huh: Is there some reason why you couldn't serve the exact same (say) steamed veggies I describe with "lemon juice, cayenne pepper, and a touch of salt"?
I dodn't mention the seasonings or style of preparation because it's irrelevant to the point, not because they are of necessity absent. Obviously, as long as you aren't adding fat or calories, you can serve them any style you want.
Well, that and the lack of variety. You implied that you eat the same menu every day. There are some foods that I can do that with (I eat steel-cut oatmeal most mornings for breakfast), but when it comes to my lunches and dinners, I have to have variety.
As I pointed out, it's to a set formula, not a set meal plan - the formula is two servings each of fruit, vegitables, (lean) meat and bread substitute. The portions vary in size, with vegitables being by far the largest, fruit in modest amounts (1 apple or equivalent), meat serving no larger than would cover the palm of the hand, and bread substitute smallest of all (2 melba toast equivalents).
Following this formula, a good cook can do whatever she or he wants. I'm pretty uninterested in cookery, so I follow a few limited varieties, but that limitation is on me, not necessary for the plan.
You can have as much lemon juice and pepper as you want. :D
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
Don't much care for fish, and the veggies won't be all that healthy with the butter and cheese I put on them. :P
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 19, 2013, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
Don't much care for fish, and the veggies won't be all that healthy with the butter and cheese I put on them. :P
Yeah, butter and cheese as condiments are not really allowed on this diet. :lol: Lemon juice and pepper, yes.
Quote from: fahdiz on March 19, 2013, 01:36:13 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
Oh, I'd eat the shit out of that.
Yeah, sounds great to me. I don't get to eat salmon too often since the wife doesn't like it.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
What do you eat for an average stay at home dinner?
Well, tomorrow I'm making roasted pork loin in a parmesan black pepper crust (277 cal/serving), roasted apples with cinnamon (35 cal/serving), and mixed berries with a dollop of whipped cream (88 cal/serving). I haven't decided what kind of veggie to make, but it will probably be steamed asparagus served with a lemon sauce (90 cal/serving).
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 01:26:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
I was sorta scratching my head over the thought that fresh baked salmon with green beans and broccoli was "boring"
I think that sounds very bland and if that's all I had to eat, would try to give up eating.
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
What do you eat for an average stay at home dinner?
I just saw your post with regards to seasoning, so I'll retract my complaint. When you had made your initial post with bland things like melba toast, didn't picture you spicing them up.
That said, I generally always find salmon bland so wouldn't change that part.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 01:33:06 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 01:26:02 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
I was sorta scratching my head over the thought that fresh baked salmon with green beans and broccoli was "boring"
I think that sounds very bland and if that's all I had to eat, would try to give up eating.
Have you ever had good food?
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:36:56 PM
As I pointed out, it's to a set formula, not a set meal plan - the formula is two servings each of fruit, vegitables, (lean) meat and bread substitute. The portions vary in size, with vegitables being by far the largest, fruit in modest amounts (1 apple or equivalent), meat serving no larger than would cover the palm of the hand, and bread substitute smallest of all (2 melba toast equivalents).
Following this formula, a good cook can do whatever she or he wants. I'm pretty uninterested in cookery, so I follow a few limited varieties, but that limitation is on me, not necessary for the plan.
You can have as much lemon juice and pepper as you want. :D
That's fair, and I was mostly just taking the piss out of you. :D
I do limit my breads quite a bit anymore, mostly because they tend to be so damn high in calories. Carbs don't scare me like they do a lot of my friends, but at the same time, I can get more food for fewer calories by avoiding thick slabs of bread with everything.
One of the biggest issues in my house is that I'm really the only one who eats vegetables. Max calls them "garnish" and only eats them after we've run out of protein. (A caveat: he enjoys fresh-from-the-garden, uncooked veggies, but since we don't have a garden, that's problematic. That, and I don't care for uncooked veggies.) The kids will eat veggies... occassionally. That means that if I want to get anyone to eat veggies, I have to make them in such a way as they won't realize that they're eating them. So, a lot of casserole-type things work, as do soups/stews.
Keep in mind that I absolutely love to cook, and often spend hours pouring over cook books. So, making a grilled protein with steamed veggies and the occasional fruit thrown in every day would just about put me over the edge.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 01:43:05 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
What do you eat for an average stay at home dinner?
Well, tomorrow I'm making roasted pork loin in a parmesan black pepper crust (277 cal/serving), roasted apples with cinnamon (35 cal/serving), and mixed berries with a dollop of whipped cream (88 cal/serving). I haven't decided what kind of veggie to make, but it will probably be steamed asparagus served with a lemon sauce (90 cal/serving).
Sounds tasty. Better than I could do.
Don't see why my baked salmon with a touch of maple syrup for flavour and green beans with minced garlic is so bad. I'm obviously not a great cook like you, but I eat okay. ;)
I have no idea what calories my meal consists of - my method doesn't require me knowing that.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 19, 2013, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
Don't much care for fish, and the veggies won't be all that healthy with the butter and cheese I put on them. :P
Yeah, butter and cheese as condiments are not really allowed on this diet. :lol: Lemon juice and pepper, yes.
Your body actually needs some dietary fat. A lot of vitamins found in vegetables can't be absorbed without it, in fact.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:55:26 PM
Don't see why my baked salmon with a touch of maple syrup for flavour
Beyond the pale.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:55:26 PM
baked salmon with a touch of maple syrup
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi109.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn80%2Fbununs%2Fgifs%2Fyuck.gif&hash=5995a37c923377cb1901992c5f6f076b44d6ff53)
Quote from: fahdiz on March 19, 2013, 01:58:53 PM
Your body actually needs some dietary fat. A lot of vitamins found in vegetables can't be absorbed without it, in fact.
Yes. Cutting out fat entirely is terrible for you.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 01:31:15 PM
I am not sure why you have such a dog in this fight. The stretch marks were not caused by quick growth in this case. Sleep apnea is a common problem with people who are fat. He slept with her. Its pretty easy to tell if someone is having trouble breathing when they sleep. not sure why you struck off depression.
Not sure how you are defining morbidly obese here. It is not just merely "heavier than you wanted" its really fat.
The term "morbidly obese" isn't "really fat". It's a clinical term that means, basically, that excessive fat is causing medical issues that are negatively affecting the person's life. Sleep apnea can be caused by weight, but it can also be caused by a number of other things (as I pointed out with my 6'2", 145-pound son). Depression can cause excessive weight gain, or can be caused by it. Stretch marks don't cause medical issues that negatively affect the person's life.
It's one of those word things. Used incorrectly, it loses its meaning. The term "morbidly obese" has a specific meaning, and when people use it to mean "really fat", well, they're using it incorrectly. And using the BMI scale to try to force someone into that term is ridiculous since it doesn't measure anything to do with a person's medical status.
Again, at 5'2" and 185 pounds (my heaviest), my doctor told me I was in the peak of health. I could stand to lose some weight, but over all, it wasn't bad. When I told him that I wanted to lose about 50 pounds, he told me that on my frame, that would be far too much. If I wanted to lose about 25-30 pounds, he'd be okay with that. Well, that's still in the "obese" category on the BMI scale. Now, I'm 5'2" and 160 pounds. Max (and my doctor) thinks that I'm small enough, but I want to lose another 25-30 pounds. Why? Because then when people ask me how much I weigh, I won't be embarassed, despite the fact that I look damn good now.
Weight is a number, not a health model. That's what frustrates me so much about all of this. Yes, it can indicate concerns, but it may not. Knowing how much a person weighs - unless it's way, way out there - just isn't enough to go on.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:55:26 PM
Don't see why my baked salmon with a touch of maple syrup for flavour and green beans with minced garlic is so bad.
Do you feel more patriotic when you consume maple tree products?
Quote from: fahdiz on March 19, 2013, 01:36:13 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
You guys simply can't imagine a tasty meal made of salmon, green beans and broccoli? Seriously? :lol:
Oh, I'd eat the shit out of that.
Well-prepared salmon dish shouldn't have shit in or on it.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 02:11:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 01:31:15 PM
I am not sure why you have such a dog in this fight. The stretch marks were not caused by quick growth in this case. Sleep apnea is a common problem with people who are fat. He slept with her. Its pretty easy to tell if someone is having trouble breathing when they sleep. not sure why you struck off depression.
Not sure how you are defining morbidly obese here. It is not just merely "heavier than you wanted" its really fat.
The term "morbidly obese" isn't "really fat". It's a clinical term that means, basically, that excessive fat is causing medical issues that are negatively affecting the person's life. Sleep apnea can be caused by weight, but it can also be caused by a number of other things (as I pointed out with my 6'2", 145-pound son).
What difference does that make?
Heart disease can have causes other than obesity, but it you are overweight and have a heart attack, you can be sure that your heart disease will be considered a c-morbidity condition to your weight.
Shit, there are very few medical conditions that don't have more than one possible cause.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 09:05:26 AM
I'm dieting myself - I don't find hunger all that troublesome. What I hate is that, after doing it for a couple of months, I get tired very easily.
When I switched out my diet because I was a 230 pound fattie (even at little over 6 foot I was a category 3 lardass) I never starved myself, on the contrary I ate (and still eat) 2 enormous meals a day, the sight of which has been known to scare women and small children. What I did do was ditch all the sugars, grains, legumes and the industrial vegetable oils from my diet. This basically eliminated anything that came in a box. I also signed up for Crossfit, because as luck would have it, a box had just opened up right across from where I work so I could just amble over there after work.
First meal on this "diet" was eggs and bacon ad libidum with some veggies. Dinner was steak with bearnaise sauce and a salad. So what happened was I basically switched from being a chronic sugar-burner cruising the highs and lows of my blood sugar (with cup after cup of coffee throughout the day to power through the afternoon sugarcrash coma) to being primarily a fat burner. For the first 2 weeks nothing happened weight wise and then I began to shed the blubber at a steady clip. My pants became looser and looser and after about 6 months I was comfortably fitting into clothes the same size I used back when I was 20. Went from 230 pounds down to 163, but with a dedicated lifting program I'm now at 178 pounds, although I still wear the same clothes I did when my weight stabilized. The extra weight is lean muscle mass, so no complaints.
And I did this eating a somewhat modified "Paleo" diet. At this point the weight loss is an ancillary benefit, the greatest positive effect has been on my mood, sleep and just general well-being.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 02:11:11 PM
Weight is a number, not a health model. That's what frustrates me so much about all of this. Yes, it can indicate concerns, but it may not. Knowing how much a person weighs - unless it's way, way out there - just isn't enough to go on.
I don't get your frustration. I have never heard anybody claim being overweight is a death sentence.
QuoteBecause then when people ask me how much I weigh, I won't be embarassed, despite the fact that I look damn good now.
Why can't you just lie to them? None of their business. Just say 'I weight 140'.
Quote from: Berkut on March 19, 2013, 02:22:05 PM
What difference does that make?
Heart disease can have causes other than obesity, but it you are overweight and have a heart attack, you can be sure that your heart disease will be considered a c-morbidity condition to your weight.
Shit, there are very few medical conditions that don't have more than one possible cause.
My point is that a 5'2", 185-pound woman probably isn't morbidly obese. The "medical issues" stjaba provided do not constitute a morbidly obese person. Obese, sure. Really fat, okay, some could say that. But not morbidly obese by the clinical definition.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 01:50:55 PM
(A caveat: he enjoys fresh-from-the-garden, uncooked veggies, but since we don't have a garden, that's problematic. That, and I don't care for uncooked veggies.)
:o Cooking the veggies is a great way to make them unpalatable. I don't get the concept of cooking the vegetables at all, the crunchy sweetness you get from biting into raw vegetables is what gives them the taste.
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:55:26 PM
Don't see why my baked salmon with a touch of maple syrup for flavour and green beans with minced garlic is so bad.
Do you feel more patriotic when you consume maple tree products?
If real maple syrup is used as a glaze on salmon it is really very good. When I see people reacting negatively to such a thing I have to wonder whether they have ever tasted real maple syrup or whether they are basing their judgment on a lot of the crap that is sold as syrup.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 02:32:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:55:26 PM
Don't see why my baked salmon with a touch of maple syrup for flavour and green beans with minced garlic is so bad.
Do you feel more patriotic when you consume maple tree products?
If real maple syrup is used as a glaze on salmon it is really very good. When I see people reacting negatively to such a thing I have to wonder whether they have ever tasted real maple syrup or whether they are basing their judgment on a lot of the crap that is sold as syrup.
Of course you often wonder a lot of pretentious things.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 02:29:07 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 09:05:26 AM
I'm dieting myself - I don't find hunger all that troublesome. What I hate is that, after doing it for a couple of months, I get tired very easily.
When I switched out my diet because I was a 230 pound fattie (even at little over 6 foot I was a category 3 lardass) I never starved myself, on the contrary I ate (and still eat) 2 enormous meals a day, the sight of which has been known to scare women and small children. What I did do was ditch all the sugars, grains, legumes and the industrial vegetable oils from my diet. This basically eliminated anything that came in a box. I also signed up for Crossfit, because as luck would have it, a box had just opened up right across from where I work so I could just amble over there after work.
First meal on this "diet" was eggs and bacon ad libidum with some veggies. Dinner was steak with bearnaise sauce and a salad. So what happened was I basically switched from being a chronic sugar-burner cruising the highs and lows of my blood sugar (with cup after cup of coffee throughout the day to power through the afternoon sugarcrash coma) to being primarily a fat burner. For the first 2 weeks nothing happened weight wise and then I began to shed the blubber at a steady clip. My pants became looser and looser and after about 6 months I was comfortably fitting into clothes the same size I used back when I was 20. Went from 230 pounds down to 163, but with a dedicated lifting program I'm now at 178 pounds, although I still wear the same clothes I did when my weight stabilized. The extra weight is lean muscle mass, so no complaints.
And I did this eating a somewhat modified "Paleo" diet. At this point the weight loss is an ancillary benefit, the greatest positive effect has been on my mood, sleep and just general well-being.
Yeah, that metabolic change is the real deal. I used to be hypoglycemic all the time for the same reason. My stupid metabolism didn't know how to not rely primarily on sugar for current energy needs. I'd crash. Sometimes pass out even. After changing my diet and about a week of transition time, I was completely cured of that. I never get that insane urgent hunger that makes me have to eat RIGHT NOW either.
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 02:31:32 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 01:50:55 PM
(A caveat: he enjoys fresh-from-the-garden, uncooked veggies, but since we don't have a garden, that's problematic. That, and I don't care for uncooked veggies.)
:o Cooking the veggies is a great way to make them unpalatable. I don't get the concept of cooking the vegetables at all, the crunchy sweetness you get from biting into raw vegetables is what gives them the taste.
If vegetables are cooked correctly they can still taste good (I make an awesome spinach dish where I brown some garlic then throw a couple bunches into a hot pan and then finish with lemon - its to die for) but you are correct that often people cook them incorrectly and they loose all their taste.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 02:35:23 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 02:32:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:55:26 PM
Don't see why my baked salmon with a touch of maple syrup for flavour and green beans with minced garlic is so bad.
Do you feel more patriotic when you consume maple tree products?
If real maple syrup is used as a glaze on salmon it is really very good. When I see people reacting negatively to such a thing I have to wonder whether they have ever tasted real maple syrup or whether they are basing their judgment on a lot of the crap that is sold as syrup.
Of course you often wonder a lot of pretentious things.
Its not my fault if some of you have never had real things to eat.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 02:36:21 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 02:31:32 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 01:50:55 PM
(A caveat: he enjoys fresh-from-the-garden, uncooked veggies, but since we don't have a garden, that's problematic. That, and I don't care for uncooked veggies.)
:o Cooking the veggies is a great way to make them unpalatable. I don't get the concept of cooking the vegetables at all, the crunchy sweetness you get from biting into raw vegetables is what gives them the taste.
If vegetables are cooked correctly they can still taste good (I make an awesome spinach dish where I brown some garlic then throw a couple bunches into a hot pan and then finish with lemon - its to die for) but you are correct that often people cook them incorrectly and they loose all their taste.
I like a them lightly steamed. Green beans should still be crunchy - limp and soggy beans are gross.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 02:32:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:55:26 PM
Don't see why my baked salmon with a touch of maple syrup for flavour and green beans with minced garlic is so bad.
Do you feel more patriotic when you consume maple tree products?
If real maple syrup is used as a glaze on salmon it is really very good. When I see people reacting negatively to such a thing I have to wonder whether they have ever tasted real maple syrup or whether they are basing their judgment on a lot of the crap that is sold as syrup.
Yeah maple glaze on salmon is a well-known preparation. I'm puzzled by the negative responses. :huh:
Have the people reacting this way actually tried it?
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 02:40:00 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 02:32:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 01:55:26 PM
Don't see why my baked salmon with a touch of maple syrup for flavour and green beans with minced garlic is so bad.
Do you feel more patriotic when you consume maple tree products?
If real maple syrup is used as a glaze on salmon it is really very good. When I see people reacting negatively to such a thing I have to wonder whether they have ever tasted real maple syrup or whether they are basing their judgment on a lot of the crap that is sold as syrup.
Yeah maple glaze on salmon is a well-known preparation. I'm puzzled by the negative responses. :huh:
Have the people reacting this way actually tried it?
Garbon/ dont be a pretentious ass /Garbon
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 02:40:00 PM
Yeah maple glaze on salmon is a well-known preparation. I'm puzzled by the negative responses. :huh:
Have the people reacting this way actually tried it?
I love maple syrup I was wondering if it made you feel more Canadian. Like if I were to feast on Bald Eagle.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 02:32:42 PM
If real maple syrup is used as a glaze on salmon it is really very good. When I see people reacting negatively to such a thing I have to wonder whether they have ever tasted real maple syrup or whether they are basing their judgment on a lot of the crap that is sold as syrup.
Maple Syrup is pure awesomeness. Once my wife tried it she literally threw out the "maple-flavored" syrup we had. We still buy the cheap stuff for the kids but for me if it's not real maple syrup, why bother.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 19, 2013, 02:35:46 PM
Yeah, that metabolic change is the real deal. I used to be hypoglycemic all the time for the same reason. My stupid metabolism didn't know how to not rely primarily on sugar for current energy needs. I'd crash. Sometimes pass out even. After changing my diet and about a week of transition time, I was completely cured of that. I never get that insane urgent hunger that makes me have to eat RIGHT NOW either.
Yep, it's a big plus, hunger being a notification to act on in the next few hours and not a lightning bolt sending you into a murderous rage. ;)
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 02:31:32 PM
:o Cooking the veggies is a great way to make them unpalatable. I don't get the concept of cooking the vegetables at all, the crunchy sweetness you get from biting into raw vegetables is what gives them the taste.
Argies tend to cook the hell out of their veggies. Steamed veggies are unheard of. Unfortunately, if I'm having a Crohn's episode I have to overcook some veggies to avoid problems.
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 02:42:18 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 02:40:00 PM
Yeah maple glaze on salmon is a well-known preparation. I'm puzzled by the negative responses. :huh:
Have the people reacting this way actually tried it?
I love maple syrup I was wondering if it made you feel more Canadian. Like if I were to feast on Bald Eagle.
The Canadian equivalent of feating on Bald Eagle would be feasting on Beaver. Sure, I feel more patriotic when I do that. :D
But seriously - yeah, both salmon and (real!) maple syrup are very stereotypical Canadian foods. The fake stuff tastes horrible, can't touch it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 02:38:13 PM
Its not my fault if some of you have never had real things to eat.
Presumably it would be your fault for reminding us.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 02:47:59 PM
The Canadian equivalent of feating on Bald Eagle would be feasting on Beaver. Sure, I feel more patriotic when I do that. :D
Oh Canada!
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 02:36:21 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 02:31:32 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 01:50:55 PM
(A caveat: he enjoys fresh-from-the-garden, uncooked veggies, but since we don't have a garden, that's problematic. That, and I don't care for uncooked veggies.)
:o Cooking the veggies is a great way to make them unpalatable. I don't get the concept of cooking the vegetables at all, the crunchy sweetness you get from biting into raw vegetables is what gives them the taste.
If vegetables are cooked correctly they can still taste good (I make an awesome spinach dish where I brown some garlic then throw a couple bunches into a hot pan and then finish with lemon - its to die for) but you are correct that often people cook them incorrectly and they loose all their taste.
Yeah, I too like to sauté spinach in the pan alongside the steak. :mmm:
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 02:30:04 PM
I don't get your frustration. I have never heard anybody claim being overweight is a death sentence.
:huh:
Just read through this thread. Those words may not be said, but the point that being fat is horribly unhealthy is throughout it. It's compared to smoking and drinking repeatedly.
Quote
Why can't you just lie to them? None of their business. Just say 'I weight 140'.
Because I don't like to lie? As it is, when I tell people how much I weigh, they think I'm lying.
The point is that even as much as I hate the whole numbers thing that everyone so vehemently subscribes to, my vanity dictates that I reach some ridiculous goal set by people who don't know me at all so that people won't refer to me as "that fat girl". No one wants to hear that, least of all a woman in her 40s with gray hair and wrinkles. :(
Who are these people going around asking your weight? I'd be like mind your business.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 02:54:36 PM
Just read through this thread. Those words may not be said, but the point that being fat is horribly unhealthy is throughout it. It's compared to smoking and drinking repeatedly.
Well Winston Churchill was fat, smoked, AND drank non-stop and he lived until 90 :P
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 02:30:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 19, 2013, 02:22:05 PM
What difference does that make?
Heart disease can have causes other than obesity, but it you are overweight and have a heart attack, you can be sure that your heart disease will be considered a c-morbidity condition to your weight.
Shit, there are very few medical conditions that don't have more than one possible cause.
My point is that a 5'2", 185-pound woman probably isn't morbidly obese. The "medical issues" stjaba provided do not constitute a morbidly obese person. Obese, sure. Really fat, okay, some could say that. But not morbidly obese by the clinical definition.
If the definition of morbid obesity is obesity + co-morbidity factors, and someone mentions sleep apnea, then yes, that is a co-morbidity factor.
Just because it is possibly the result of something OTHER THAN obesity means nothing - otherwise, there would be no such thing as a co-morbidity factor, since almost any other medical condition can have an explanation other than obesity.
Hell, all co-morbidity mean anyway is "If you are obese, and you have this other factor, then your odds of dieing as a result are much greater than having either factor in isolation".
Your argument is entirely circular Meri.
Someone said she is morbidly obese.
You said she was not.
Someone said the definition is obesity plus a co-morbidity factor. Listed several (some of which were bullshit, but sleep apnea most definitely is NOT bullshit).
You claim that sleep apnea can have other causes, therefore is not a co-morbidity factor, therefore she is not morbidly obese.
But in fact it IS a recognized co-morbidity factor. You then respond by saying it is not a co-morbidity factor, because she is not morbidly obese!
The clinical definition as stated stands, and is perfectly valid. She is obese, and her obesity combined with other factors means she is at a considerably greater risk for death or serious problems.
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 02:40:00 PM
Yeah maple glaze on salmon is a well-known preparation. I'm puzzled by the negative responses. :huh:
Have the people reacting this way actually tried it?
Yes, I've tried it. (Yes, CC, with REAL maple syrup. I haven't eaten the fake stuff since I was a kid.) I don't particularly care for it. I prefer my salmon with lemon and pepper, of course. :P
Quote from: Berkut on March 19, 2013, 02:57:48 PM
If the definition of morbid obesity is obesity + co-morbidity factors, and someone mentions sleep apnea, then yes, that is a co-morbidity factor.
Just because it is possibly the result of something OTHER THAN obesity means nothing - otherwise, there would be no such thing as a co-morbidity factor, since almost any other medical condition can have an explanation other than obesity.
Hell, all co-morbidity mean anyway is "If you are obese, and you have this other factor, then your odds of dieing as a result are much greater than having either factor in isolation".
Your argument is entirely circular Meri.
Someone said she is morbidly obese.
You said she was not.
Someone said the definition is obesity plus a co-morbidity factor. Listed several (some of which were bullshit, but sleep apnea most definitely is NOT bullshit).
You claim that sleep apnea can have other causes, therefore is not a co-morbidity factor, therefore she is not morbidly obese.
But in fact it IS a recognized co-morbidity factor. You then respond by saying it is not a co-morbidity factor, because she is not morbidly obese!
The clinical definition as stated stands, and is perfectly valid. She is obese, and her obesity combined with other factors means she is at a considerably greater risk for death or serious problems.
Co-morbid =/= morbidly obese.
Being co-morbid means having two issues that affect a person's health at the same time, ie asthma and diabetes are co-morbid. Morbidly obese means, specifically, that the obesity is causing the health issues. If her sleep apnea isn't caused by her weight, then while she is overweight with sleep apnea, she is not morbidly obese.
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 02:57:42 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 02:54:36 PM
Just read through this thread. Those words may not be said, but the point that being fat is horribly unhealthy is throughout it. It's compared to smoking and drinking repeatedly.
Well Winston Churchill was fat, smoked, AND drank non-stop and he lived until 90 :P
Blasphemy! That's just not possible! You'll convince people that being fat, smoking, and drinking are acceptable!
Here's what the university of rochester had to say:
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity.aspx
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity/related-conditions.aspx
QuoteMorbid obesity is diagnosed by determining Body Mass Index (BMI). BMI is defined by the ratio of an individual's height to his or her weight. Normal BMI ranges from 20-25. See BMI on back panel. An individual is considered morbidly obese if he or she is 100 pounds over his/her ideal body weight, has a BMI of 40 or more, or 35 or more and experiencing obesity-related health conditions, such as high blood pressure or diabetes.
And as it is possible that both apnea and depression stemmed from the obesity...
I'll stop complaining about fat acceptance if cigar-smoking acceptance takes hold :)
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 03:08:06 PM
Here's what the university of rochester had to say:
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity.aspx
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity/related-conditions.aspx
QuoteMorbid obesity is diagnosed by determining Body Mass Index (BMI). BMI is defined by the ratio of an individual's height to his or her weight. Normal BMI ranges from 20-25. See BMI on back panel. An individual is considered morbidly obese if he or she is 100 pounds over his/her ideal body weight, has a BMI of 40 or more, or 35 or more and experiencing obesity-related health conditions, such as high blood pressure or diabetes.
And as it is possible that both apnea and depression stemmed from the obesity...
That's already been covered, g, further up the thread. :hug:
Yes, it is possible. That doesn't mean, however, that she was.
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 02:44:19 PM
Maple Syrup is pure awesomeness. Once my wife tried it she literally threw out the "maple-flavored" syrup we had. We still buy the cheap stuff for the kids but for me if it's not real maple syrup, why bother.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 03:11:50 PM
I'll stop complaining about fat acceptance if cigar-smoking acceptance takes hold :)
Fat acceptance = Delusion and narcissism given a spin on the female rationalization hamster wheel.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 02:51:09 PM
Yeah, I too like to sauté spinach in the pan alongside the steak. :mmm:
That is a great idea
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:04:18 PM
Being co-morbid means having two issues that affect a person's health at the same time, ie asthma and diabetes are co-morbid. Morbidly obese means, specifically, that the obesity is causing the health issues. If her sleep apnea isn't caused by her weight, then while she is overweight with sleep apnea, she is not morbidly obese.
No, being morbidly obese means you are obese with a co-morbid condition. There is no way to definitevly know what is causing a specific persons sleep apnea, for example.
If it meant what you demand that it means, then nobody would ever be clinically morbidly obese under that definition, since it could always be some condition other than their obesity causing their apnea, or diabetes, or heart disease, or GRD, or depression, or high blood pressure, or heart disease.
Every single one of those could have nothing to do with obesity...but probably do not. None of them can be definitely and directly diagnosed as certainly being the result of a particular persons obesity...but chances are pretty good that if you are obese, and have some or all of those conditions, it is related.
Finally, statistically, it matters not one bit. If you are clinically obese, AND you have co-morbid conditions, then you are at a much greater risk for death than someone with either conditions alone. This is why the standards for things like bariatric surgery are BMI>35 (or whatever) with 1 or more co-morbidity conditions, or a BMI > 40 without said conditions.
I am puzzled at your resistance to this purely clinical definition. If she has a BMI >35, and she exhibits one or more of these conditions, she is clinically morbidly obese. You can argue this until you are blue in the face, but it won't change the definition. There is no demand that the condition be definitely caused by the obesity. Hell, it probably doesn't even matter statistically. Even if you could prove that her apnea is NOT caused by her obesity, her risk of dying is still going to be statistically much higher if she has it than if she did not.
QuoteWhat is Morbid Obesity?
Morbid obesity means that a person is so overweight that his or her well-being and health are actually in jeopardy. It is defined in several different ways:
Weighing more than 100 pounds over your ideal body weight. The ideal body weight is determined by the Metropolitan Life Insurance table, has been in existence for many years (since 1959) and is based on mathematical formulas that the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company used to determine insurance risks. Most doctors have gotten away from using this table because it is very difficult to use (with separate categories for "frame size" and for men and women) and can be inaccurate.
A Body Mass Index (BMI) equal to or greater than 35 Kg/M2 in a person who has associated medical problems such as high blood pressure, sleep apnea, or diabetes. The BMI relates one's weight to his or her height in an attempt to generate a common denominator for all individuals.
A Body Mass Index (BMI) equal to or greater than 40 Kg/M2 in a person who either does or does not have any other medical problems. Use our free online BMI calculator to determine your BMI.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:14:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 03:08:06 PM
Here's what the university of rochester had to say:
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity.aspx
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity/related-conditions.aspx
QuoteMorbid obesity is diagnosed by determining Body Mass Index (BMI). BMI is defined by the ratio of an individual's height to his or her weight. Normal BMI ranges from 20-25. See BMI on back panel. An individual is considered morbidly obese if he or she is 100 pounds over his/her ideal body weight, has a BMI of 40 or more, or 35 or more and experiencing obesity-related health conditions, such as high blood pressure or diabetes.
And as it is possible that both apnea and depression stemmed from the obesity...
That's already been covered, g, further up the thread. :hug:
Yes, it is possible. That doesn't mean, however, that she was.
Yes, actually it does.
If she went to a doctor and said "Hey doc, my BMI is 36, and I suffer from sleep apnea and depression...am I clinically morbidly obese?" He would not say "Gee, that depends, what caused your depression and apnea? We can't know until we find out, which, btw, is actually not possible!"
No, he would say "Yes, you meet the clinical definition. Your risk of dying is greater than someone with a BMI of 36 but no co-morbid conditions".
Quote from: Berkut on March 19, 2013, 03:21:04 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:14:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 03:08:06 PM
Here's what the university of rochester had to say:
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity.aspx
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity/related-conditions.aspx
QuoteMorbid obesity is diagnosed by determining Body Mass Index (BMI). BMI is defined by the ratio of an individual's height to his or her weight. Normal BMI ranges from 20-25. See BMI on back panel. An individual is considered morbidly obese if he or she is 100 pounds over his/her ideal body weight, has a BMI of 40 or more, or 35 or more and experiencing obesity-related health conditions, such as high blood pressure or diabetes.
And as it is possible that both apnea and depression stemmed from the obesity...
That's already been covered, g, further up the thread. :hug:
Yes, it is possible. That doesn't mean, however, that she was.
Yes, actually it does.
If she went to a doctor and said "Hey doc, my BMI is 36, and I suffer from sleep apnea and depression...am I clinically morbidly obese?" He would not say "Gee, that depends, what caused your depression and apnea? We can't know until we find out, which, btw, is actually not possible!"
No, he would say "Yes, you meet the clinical definition. Your risk of dying is greater than someone with a BMI of 36 but no co-morbid conditions".
And even if it worked the Meri said - wouldn't it be safer to suggest to such a person that they are morbidly obese and need to take steps as a corrective - rather than playing the odds that their obesity wasn't a complicating factor?
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 12:20:16 PM
Yeah, like your meal plan is boring as hell. I'd give it up after about a week, IF I lasted that long. Rule #1 of any diet plan: It has to be something you can and will stick with.
That IMO highlights one of the big problems. People find healthy meals boring, and treat eating them like taking a medicine. They're brought up on exactly the kind of foods that are terrible for them. Of course healthy eating is not going to work long-term in that case without some kind of strong psychological reinforcement.
In that sense I feel that I'm very lucky, because I actually enjoy eating salads and vegetables, feel mostly indifferent about deep-fried food, and abhor overly complex fatty meals. Few things beat a fresh Greek salad with a good dressing based on extra virgin olive oil. If I could only loose that sweet tooth, I would be golden.
I had never really thought about it, but a gal pointed to me the other day how I eat unusually healthy food for the typical bachelor. My diet hasn't come as a conscious decision, though. I guess I'm fortunate not to like fast food. My diet is typically based on rice, legumes and dark vegetables (now that I can finally eat them), eggs, lots of olive oil and some meat or fish 5 or so times a week -- mostly pork, chicken, salmon, tuna, megrim and swordfish. Also, no alcohol.
Perhaps because of this I'm one of 2 people in the office without cholesterol, triglycerides or blood pressure problems -- and the other guy is a physical portent (used to be a pro athlete).
What is more interesting than whether or not she is morbidly obese (she clearly is by the clinical definition) but why people, in this case Meri, would be so adamant about denying it.
You are basically denying that her weight is likely to cause her to not live as long as she ought to, and that is really very sad. Because it is certainly the case that her statistical life expectancy is shorter, and denyong that this is true makes it much, much worse, since it is basically saying "Hey, ignore the stats! Keep doing what you are doing! You aren't really putting your life at risk, don't worry about it!"
Yeah, you might as well argue that a smoker isn't really a smoker, because a pack or so a day doesn't count, and there are plenty of people who smoke more and live plenty long, and besides, you can't prove that your lung cancer came from smoking - heck, my friend has never smoked a day in his life and HE got lung cancer, therefore lung cancer is not certainly the result of smoking, so light up another one!
Berk, you can definitely tell what causes sleep apnea. It's part of the tests they run.
But the rest of your argument stands. Okay, stjaba left his morbidly obese girlfriend because he was so concerned for her health that he had to go. I'm sure that was the case.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Okay, stjaba left his morbidly obese girlfriend because he was so concerned for her health that he had to go. I'm sure that was the case.
I thought we'd already established that it has to do with lack of desire to try and change / not finding an individual attractive anymore. :huh:
Quote from: Berkut on March 19, 2013, 03:25:40 PM
What is more interesting than whether or not she is morbidly obese (she clearly is by the clinical definition) but why people, in this case Meri, would be so adamant about denying it.
You are basically denying that her weight is likely to cause her to not live as long as she ought to, and that is really very sad. Because it is certainly the case that her statistical life expectancy is shorter, and denyong that this is true makes it much, much worse, since it is basically saying "Hey, ignore the stats! Keep doing what you are doing! You aren't really putting your life at risk, don't worry about it!"
Yeah, you might as well argue that a smoker isn't really a smoker, because a pack or so a day doesn't count, and there are plenty of people who smoke more and live plenty long, and besides, you can't prove that your lung cancer came from smoking - heck, my friend has never smoked a day in his life and HE got lung cancer, therefore lung cancer is not certainly the result of smoking, so light up another one!
Okay.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Okay, stjaba left his morbidly obese girlfriend because he was so concerned for her health that he had to go. I'm sure that was the case.
Eh it is not like you need a good reason to leave a girlfriend. It is not like you are married. I mean they were what...23? Besides the whole depression and developing physical problems sounds like a bit of a buzz kill.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 03:16:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 03:11:50 PM
I'll stop complaining about fat acceptance if cigar-smoking acceptance takes hold :)
Fat acceptance = Delusion and narcissism given a spin on the female rationalization hamster wheel.
That's pretty much it.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Berk, you can definitely tell what causes sleep apnea. It's part of the tests they run.
Actually no. The tests they run can indicate that sleep apnea exists but the condition has multiple causes and in people who are obese the obesity itself is one of the contributing causes.
If by test they run you mean the say, hey you are fat and that is one of the things that causes sleep anpnea then yes that is something they will say - the doctor will then recommend that the patient lose wieght.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 19, 2013, 03:24:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 12:20:16 PM
Yeah, like your meal plan is boring as hell. I'd give it up after about a week, IF I lasted that long. Rule #1 of any diet plan: It has to be something you can and will stick with.
That IMO highlights one of the big problems. People find healthy meals boring, and treat eating them like taking a medicine. They're brought up on exactly the kind of foods that are terrible for them. Of course healthy eating is not going to work long-term in that case without some kind of strong psychological reinforcement.
In that sense I feel that I'm very lucky, because I actually enjoy eating salads and vegetables, feel mostly indifferent about deep-fried food, and abhor overly complex fatty meals. Few things beat a fresh Greek salad with a good dressing based on extra virgin olive oil. If I could only loose that sweet tooth, I would be golden.
I had never really thought about it, but a gal pointed to me the other day how I eat unusually healthy food for the typical bachelor. My diet hasn't come as a conscious decision, though. I guess I'm fortunate not to like fast food. My diet is typically based on rice, legumes and dark vegetables (now that I can finally eat them), eggs, lots of olive oil and some meat or fish 5 or so times a week -- mostly pork, chicken, salmon, tuna, megrim and swordfish. Also, no alcohol.
Perhaps because of this I'm one of 2 people in the office without cholesterol, triglycerides or blood pressure problems -- and the other guy is a physical portent (used to be a pro athlete).
I eat pretty similar to you (minus the legumes) and I can't fault the results. I'm not that fond of salad per se, I'll have moderate portions of it and often use it as a fat delivery veichle by drenching it in EVOO or sautéing them in the pan. But the rabbit food in and of itself is just condiment around the steak.
Quote from: Valmy on March 19, 2013, 03:33:01 PM
Eh it is not like you need a good reason to leave a girlfriend. It is not like you are married. I mean they were what...23? Besides the whole depression and developing physical problems sounds like a bit of a buzz kill.
He did the right thing.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Berk, you can definitely tell what causes sleep apnea. It's part of the tests they run.
Actually no. The tests they run can indicate that sleep apnea exists but the condition has multiple causes and in people who are obese the obesity itself is one of the contributing causes.
If by test they run you mean the say, hey you are fat and that is one of the things that causes sleep anpnea then yes that is something they will say - the doctor will then recommend that the patient lose wieght.
So how come when my son was diagnosed with it, they said that it was central sleep apnea due to a signal in his brain that was shorting and causing his body to stop breathing while he slept? And how is it that people are regularly diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea due to enlarged tonsils and adnoids? And there are those who are regularly diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea due to too much fat on their necks causing the obstruction?
When it's fat, they say, "Lose weight and it will go away." But that doesn't mean that every person who has obstructive sleep apnea will get better if they lose weight. And yes, the doctor can usually tell one way or the other if it will help.
I wonder if Meri would be so passionate about this if a man wrote the article about his experiences being fat.
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 03:16:04 PM
Fat acceptance = Delusion and narcissism given a spin on the female rationalization hamster wheel.
That's pretty much it.
Right. It couldn't possibly be that there are those out there who just don't find overweight people as repugnant as others.
:rolleyes:
I'm done. You all win. Fat people should be put to death to save the rest of us from having to deal with their obvious and horrible medical issues, and just their plain disgusting forms. Extra weight means a horrible death, getting worse for every extra pound that's carried. Better to end it while they're just 10 pounds overweight and be done with it. That will save you poor, overly athletic and healthy men from having to deal with any unsightly jiggle, too.
Peace out.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2013, 03:44:59 PM
I wonder if Meri would be so passionate about this if a man wrote the article about his experiences being fat.
:lol:
"You'll take the abuse and like it, Mister!!"
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:49:59 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 03:16:04 PM
Fat acceptance = Delusion and narcissism given a spin on the female rationalization hamster wheel.
That's pretty much it.
Right. It couldn't possibly be that there are those out there who just don't find overweight people as repugnant as others.
:rolleyes:
I'm done. You all win. Fat people should be put to death to save the rest of us from having to deal with their obvious and horrible medical issues, and just their plain disgusting forms. Extra weight means a horrible death, getting worse for every extra pound that's carried. Better to end it while they're just 10 pounds overweight and be done with it. That will save you poor, overly athletic and healthy men from having to deal with any unsightly jiggle, too.
Peace out.
That's a very odd response, Meri. I don't see how that fits into the tenor or context of anything discussed in this thread.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 03:36:37 PM
I eat pretty similar to you (minus the legumes) and I can't fault the results. I'm not that fond of salad per se, I'll have moderate portions of it and often use it as a fat delivery veichle by drenching it in EVOO or sautéing them in the pan. But the rabbit food in and of itself is just condiment around the steak.
When I was little, some adults actually did call me a rabbit, because I liked eating raw cabbage and carrots. :blush:
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 03:54:21 PM
That's a very odd response, Meri. I don't see how that fits into the tenor or context of anything discussed in this thread.
Spicey and Legbiter trolled her good there.
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 03:55:39 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 03:36:37 PM
I eat pretty similar to you (minus the legumes) and I can't fault the results. I'm not that fond of salad per se, I'll have moderate portions of it and often use it as a fat delivery veichle by drenching it in EVOO or sautéing them in the pan. But the rabbit food in and of itself is just condiment around the steak.
When I was little, some adults actually did call me a rabbit, because I liked eating raw cabbage and carrots. :blush:
Well, I certainly hope it wasn't from your habit of shitting little pellets of poo all over the floor whenever you felt like it. :P
Quote from: DGuller on March 19, 2013, 03:55:39 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 03:36:37 PM
I eat pretty similar to you (minus the legumes) and I can't fault the results. I'm not that fond of salad per se, I'll have moderate portions of it and often use it as a fat delivery veichle by drenching it in EVOO or sautéing them in the pan. But the rabbit food in and of itself is just condiment around the steak.
When I was little, some adults actually did call me a rabbit, because I liked eating raw cabbage and carrots. :blush:
Ah, nothing like Eastern European parenting when it comes to instilling proper dieting habits.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:49:59 PM
Right. It couldn't possibly be that there are those out there who just don't find overweight people as repugnant as others.
Naw, if anyone actually hates fatties it's the "fat acceptance" enablers.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 03:58:36 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:49:59 PM
Right. It couldn't possibly be that there are those out there who just don't find overweight people as repugnant as others.
Naw, if anyone actually hates fatties it's the "fat acceptance" enablers.
Fat acceptance guys are actually shitheads and uggos with low self esteem who deliberately lower their standards in the hope of a pity fuck (and knowing they are unable to score with the chicks they actually find attractive, anyway).
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 04:00:06 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 03:58:36 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:49:59 PM
Right. It couldn't possibly be that there are those out there who just don't find overweight people as repugnant as others.
Naw, if anyone actually hates fatties it's the "fat acceptance" enablers.
Fat acceptance guys are actually shitheads and uggos with low self esteem who deliberately lower their standards in the hope of a pity fuck (and knowing they are unable to score with the chicks they actually find attractive, anyway).
I don't think that's true. I think chasers (at least on the gay side) actually find those of bigger builds to be attractive.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 04:01:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 04:00:06 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2013, 03:58:36 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:49:59 PM
Right. It couldn't possibly be that there are those out there who just don't find overweight people as repugnant as others.
Naw, if anyone actually hates fatties it's the "fat acceptance" enablers.
Fat acceptance guys are actually shitheads and uggos with low self esteem who deliberately lower their standards in the hope of a pity fuck (and knowing they are unable to score with the chicks they actually find attractive, anyway).
I don't think that's true. I think chasers (at least on the gay side) actually find those of bigger builds to be attractive.
I think it may be different for gays (although, again, skinny chasers are rare, so it points towards self-image/lower standards, too).
Now that we pushed Meri over the edge, I will say that I have a cousin in his late 40s who has been firmly in the morbidly obese category (going purely by BMI) all his life and he's generally healthy in spite of his size. He's huge. And he likes to eat. A lot. When I used to come here to Cincy to visit him we would typically go out for a big dinner & then stop by a couple stores, and then on the way back to his house after that he'd start talking about ordering a pizza.
But he gets a lot of exercise for a fat guy. He's playing basketball or softball practically every day. And his doctor says his blood pressure, cholesterol level, blood sugar, etc. are all within the normal range for a healthy person.
It's still hard to imagine him living to a normal life expectancy at his weight, and even if he does he's obviously the exception.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:42:35 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Berk, you can definitely tell what causes sleep apnea. It's part of the tests they run.
Actually no. The tests they run can indicate that sleep apnea exists but the condition has multiple causes and in people who are obese the obesity itself is one of the contributing causes.
If by test they run you mean the say, hey you are fat and that is one of the things that causes sleep anpnea then yes that is something they will say - the doctor will then recommend that the patient lose wieght.
So how come when my son was diagnosed with it, they said that it was central sleep apnea due to a signal in his brain that was shorting and causing his body to stop breathing while he slept?
They got to charge more to your insurance that way?
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 04:03:12 PM
(although, again, skinny chasers are rare, so it points towards self-image/lower standards, too).
I'm not sure I'd say that's true either.
Though agreed that I won't combat the premise that one could opt to sleep with people of larger builds as there is potentially less chance of rejection.
One thing before I go to bed, in response to derspiess post - I think one mistake people make is to equate health with life expectancy, but completely disregarding quality of life.
So what if you are fat or smoke and get to live to 90 - if your last decades are constant pain or inability to take shit without assistance?
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 03:15:56 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 02:44:19 PM
Maple Syrup is pure awesomeness. Once my wife tried it she literally threw out the "maple-flavored" syrup we had. We still buy the cheap stuff for the kids but for me if it's not real maple syrup, why bother.
:thumbsup:
+1. I get all of my maple syrup from a real sugar bush in southern Indiana. It's one of the southernmost working sugar bushes in the eastern US, actually. The quality of their product is still good, though (tastes close enough to real Vermont syrup that I can't tell the difference).
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Berk, you can definitely tell what causes sleep apnea. It's part of the tests they run.
But the rest of your argument stands. Okay, stjaba left his morbidly obese girlfriend because he was so concerned for her health that he had to go. I'm sure that was the case.
Truthfully, we broke up for a variety of reasons. She was approximately 140-145 pounds when we started dating. I wasn't weighing her on a regular basis, but she got to her peak weight maybe within a year of dating. She was close to 200 pounds. She was around 185 pounds when we broke up. For the majority of our relationship (3.5 years) she was obese (or morbidly obese).
With respect to why we broke up, I no longer was physically attracted to her. Watching her eat large quantities of food all the time disgusted me. She regularly out-ate me. She'd regularly eat a whole medium size pizza herself. I'd do everything I can to encourage her to eat healthier, or in smaller portions, but nothing worked.
I'd do everything I can to encourage her to work out or at least walk, and she'd refuse. I'd say, 'Why don't we work out together" and she'd complain that the apartment gym was too small and claustrophobic. I'd say, "Why don't we work out at the campus gym [not small or claustrophobic] and she complained that it was too big and had too many people. I'd say, why don't we work out in the morning when there's no one there, and she complained that it was too early. Same for late in the evening- "It's too late".
When I suggested making walking or running outside, the complaint was that it was either too hot or too cold. I'd encourage her to get healthy items, and she was offended. I tried subtle hints, and it never worked. I tried obvious hints, and it never worked. She was extremely sensitive about her weight, so I tried everything I could without being offensive to her. She asked me a million times if I thought she was fat, and I always lied and told her no.
When she wasn't in class, she spent her time in bed. She wouldn't even want to watch TV on the couch- she had to be prone in bed, all the time. She refused to do anything outside of the house because it was too hot, too cold, too late, or too early. The only activities she did outside the house involved shopping or sedentary things like watching movies.
Aside from all the weight issues, she was constantly depressed and in a bad mood. She cut herself and regularly overdosed on her prescription meds. She cut herself and was depressed because she was overweight. Eating made her feel better, so she just got fatter. She had constant issues with sleeping- she could never get enough sleep despite the fact she spent the day in bed and took constant naps (this is where the sleep apnea comes in). Note, that she started having sleep issues after she gained a lot of weight.
The interesting thing is that she used to be super fit and skinny. When she was in high school she was thin as a bone and ran cross country. When she was a freshman and sophomore, she worked out 2 hours a day at the campus gym and was super hot. But once she started gaining weight, she wouldn't work out anymore.
So, I put up with her for years. I took care of her for years, with little appreciation or thanks (aside from her parents). She was so lazy she'd refuse to get her own meds all the time. So I'd have to run by CVS every month to get them since she didn't want to do it. She didn't know how to run the dish washer or the clothes washer. After a while I got sick of dealing with her lazy ass. Good riddance.
I figured she would finally lose weight once we broke up, out of desperation. Based on a few pictures I've seen of her, it looks like she has lost a little weight, but she is still obese.
Basically, most of the issues in our relationship stemmed from her obesity. Her mental health issues got worse the fatter she got. Her desire to do things outside the house got worse over time. The fatter she got, the less attracted I was to her. The lazier she got, the more I resented her.
:(
No criticism of your actions here. :console:
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 07:00:55 PM
She cut herself
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazing-animations.com%2Fsports%2Fanimations%2Frunning6.gif&hash=2c02274488bb44e7a30c375cf7e03b6418b110f8)
btw are her boobs big.
Quote from: Caliga on March 19, 2013, 07:15:08 PM
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 07:00:55 PM
She cut herself
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazing-animations.com%2Fsports%2Fanimations%2Frunning6.gif&hash=2c02274488bb44e7a30c375cf7e03b6418b110f8)
btw are her boobs big.
Also acceptable: a pic from the flock of seagulls I ran video.
Quote from: Caliga on March 19, 2013, 07:15:08 PM
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 07:00:55 PM
She cut herself
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazing-animations.com%2Fsports%2Fanimations%2Frunning6.gif&hash=2c02274488bb44e7a30c375cf7e03b6418b110f8)
btw are her boobs big.
Yeah, she had huge tits. When she was skinny, they were amazing. When she got fat, the novelty wore thin(so to speak :P), and they became saggy and gross.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 04:20:06 PM
One thing before I go to bed, in response to derspiess post - I think one mistake people make is to equate health with life expectancy, but completely disregarding quality of life.
So what if you are fat or smoke and get to live to 90 - if your last decades are constant pain or inability to take shit without assistance?
True. But my point was that you generally don't see fat people living long lives. Quality of life is certainly another thing worth considering.
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 07:00:55 PM
The interesting thing is that she used to be super fit and skinny. When she was in high school she was thin as a bone and ran cross country. When she was a freshman and sophomore, she worked out 2 hours a day at the campus gym and was super hot. But once she started gaining weight, she wouldn't work out anymore.
Wow. From what I recall, the most usual time for them to balloon up in college was during the freshman year (i.e., the freshman forty). Sucks to see a girl give up on herself at any point, though :(
You shouldn't have lied. It's more respectful just to be honest.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 19, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
You shouldn't have lied. It's more respectful just to be honest.
:lol: It'sa trap
Yeah, I don't think telling her the truth would have helped, either. Jab's ex was (is?) clearly mentally ill. :(
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 19, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
You shouldn't have lied. It's more respectful just to be honest.
Was stuck between a rock and a hard place. If I told the truth, I risked crying spells and tantrums, additional cutting, additional overdoses, etc. Lying delayed those things.
Obviously, would have been better off telling the truth, but it was much easier to lie.
Why did you stay with her so long if she had all these, lets call them mental flaws?
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Berk, you can definitely tell what causes sleep apnea. It's part of the tests they run.
No, you can't. I know, I had the tests, and I had sleep apnea. They tests just tell you whether you have it, and how much actual sleep you are getting. They cannot tell you what causes it, or whether it will go away if you lose weight, although it is rather likely. It did in my case.
Quote from: HVC on March 19, 2013, 07:50:13 PM
Why did you stay with her so long if she had all these, lets call them mental flaws?
Good question. There's no good answer. Of course, I am focusing on all the negatives. It got worse over time. The relationship wasn't hell 24/7.
Additionally, there was a guilt element to it. I thought she couldn't fend for herself, or that she would off herself if we broke up.
We lived together and that made it a harder to break up.
You guys oughtta see how Argentine men utilize abject cruelty to keep their wives thin. Or at least Meri oughtta see it.
My wife actually complained to me that I wasn't tough enough on her and that I was partly responsible for her putting on some weight. So I tried to be "firm" with her once and she cried. Tried it again and she cried. Quit after that. Either I wasn't doing it right or she was too Americanized by that point.
edit: Odd thing about Argies btw is that with all their obsession with being thin, calling each other gordo/gorda is meant to be very affectionate.
I like when they cry.
During sex.
Fuck sake man up Gringo.
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 08:01:00 PM
We lived together and that made it a harder to break up.
Yeah, that must have been a fun day for you.
Was @ you. Fucker Ed fucking fucked it up.
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:52:26 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 08:48:15 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of empathy for people who are overweight/obese/morbidly obese.
Empathy, yes.
Erections, not so much.
Hey, that's fair. Would that everyone at least felt the empathy.
Yeah, and I'd hope people would have enough empathy for me knowing I couldn't fuck that whale with Raz's dick.
Quote from: katmai on March 19, 2013, 08:27:16 PM
Was @ you. Fucker Ed fucking fucked it up.
That is my job.
Quote from: Caliga on March 19, 2013, 08:21:19 PM
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 08:01:00 PM
We lived together and that made it a harder to break up.
Yeah, that must have been a fun day for you.
Yeah... that was awkward.
After we broke up, we still lived together for about a week. I spent all my time in the school library, as it was around exam time.
A week after we broke up, her parents came up to move her out (the semester was over). Her parents helped clean up the apartment and gave me $500 as a graduation present and basically told me it was their daughter's fault the relationship didn't work out. Her parents are working class(one parent is a roofer and the other works in a nursing home kitchen), so $500 is a lot of money for them. As much as I wanted to keep the cash, I sent it back in the mail to my ex, as she needed the money more than me.
My ex told me that her mom intercepted the $500 and donated it to a hospital. :wacko: I should have just kept the cash.
Well that was a strange story. :lol:
Any post-breakup action? :perv: I only had one real girlfriend before my wife and she was in D.C. when we broke up, so no opportunity for that myself. :mad:
Lol no wonder she has issues. "thanks for putting up with our daughter. Here's some cash"
Quote from: HVC on March 19, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
Lol no wonder she has issues. "thanks for putting up with our daughter. Here's some cash"
Like you wouldn't take that in a heartbeat.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 09:07:46 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 19, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
Lol no wonder she has issues. "thanks for putting up with our daughter. Here's some cash"
Like you wouldn't take that in a heartbeat.
yes, but you know part of my history :D
The closest i ever got was a dad in a run about way telling me a should date his other daughter. It was a weird family.
Quote from: HVC on March 19, 2013, 09:14:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 09:07:46 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 19, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
Lol no wonder she has issues. "thanks for putting up with our daughter. Here's some cash"
Like you wouldn't take that in a heartbeat.
yes, but you know part of my history :D
The closest i ever got was a dad in a run about way telling me a should date his other daughter. It was a weird family.
At the same time.
Quote from: katmai on March 19, 2013, 08:27:16 PM
Was @ you. Fucker Ed fucking fucked it up.
:nelson: So how do you bean enthusiasts treat your women?
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2013, 09:17:35 PM
Quote from: katmai on March 19, 2013, 08:27:16 PM
Was @ you. Fucker Ed fucking fucked it up.
:nelson: So how do you bean enthusiasts treat your women?
They drive the plows.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 19, 2013, 09:16:51 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 19, 2013, 09:14:58 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 09:07:46 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 19, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
Lol no wonder she has issues. "thanks for putting up with our daughter. Here's some cash"
Like you wouldn't take that in a heartbeat.
yes, but you know part of my history :D
The closest i ever got was a dad in a run about way telling me a should date his other daughter. It was a weird family.
At the same time.
not that weird lol
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
What she gave up on was the idea that she had to be thin to be beautiful.
You know, I know you're gonna ignore me again, and that's cool, but why is it that the world must change to find overweight people attractive? I don't think anyone's ever said we should put them in camps. or suggesting they not be able to vote or legally work, or anything absurd like that. And, Internet comments on generalities notwithstanding, no one, afaik, is communicating abuse directly at any person in any form they're likely to see or hear it. (And fwiw, I've seen pictures of you, I think we all have, and we know you're not fat. So it also involves no indirect personal attack.)
So, no is denying the right of fat people to exist. I think the bottom line is that the majority don't think fat people are as attractive as thin people, including (hypocritically or not) other fat people. I dunno what kind of change you want to see in people, short of "You know, it turns out I
do prefer women who are heavy." Which is, in my opinion, a bridge much too far.
Listen to your body.
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 12:50:31 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 19, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:43:28 AM
Incidentally, I gotta say that based on anecdotal evidence, a lot of situations where people can't lose weight despite "trying" does not come from genetics, or even laziness, but actual ignorance of what is and is not healthy.
Unfortunately, as I said before, losing weight and overally improving one's health requires a considerable shift in life style and (unless you are willing to hire a personal chef) a considerable amount of work - something a lot of people are unable or unwilling to do. So they think that if they buy a "healthy" salad at McDonald's or a ready made "health-option" meal at Tesco (or starve themselves with low nutrition food) they are actually trying to lose weight - and then act all surprised, give up and/or blame genetics when this does jack shit.
And let's not forget that in many places healthy food options come with a price tag - or are even unavailable (e.g. a small town with a couple of Tescos/Walmarts, and no farmer's market).
I dunno, my diet is pretty easy to maintain with stuff bought at the corner store (which admittedly stocks vegitables). I'm a terrible cook and hate cooking, so everything has to be easy.
Sorry, maybe I wasn't specific enough, but I wasn't exactly saying that a rich urban lawyer in Canada lives according to what can be seen as a standard. :P
I think you're pretty off-base to say that food you buy at a Wal-Mart must necessarily be unhealthy. They've got a lot of vegetarian items, for example.
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 09:28:44 PM
I dunno what kind of change you want to see in people, short of "You know, it turns out I do prefer women who are heavy." Which is, in my opinion, a bridge much too far.
Well you are visiting pro-ana websites.
Anyway, I don't have an issue with the idea that perhaps people should find fat people attractive. After all, we're going to need to if America is going to continue. :D
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 09:41:54 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 09:28:44 PM
I dunno what kind of change you want to see in people, short of "You know, it turns out I do prefer women who are heavy." Which is, in my opinion, a bridge much too far.
Well you are visiting pro-ana websites.
Did you miss an "l"? What?
QuoteAnyway, I don't have an issue with the idea that perhaps people should find fat people attractive. After all, we're going to need to if America is going to continue. :D
It's a free country. I guess.
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 09:44:07 PM
Did you miss an "l"? What?
Umm, no I think that was a properly formed sentence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-ana
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 09:44:07 PM
Did you miss an "l"? What?
Umm, no I think that was a properly formed sentence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-ana
I DO NOT.
I mean, maybe it's overdiagnosed though.
:lmfao:
Should someone with anorexia nervosa be made to feel ugly and unattractive? Should she be shunned and ostracized? Or should she say, "Look at me! I'm awesome! I'm tiny, and I'm beautiful!"
It's okay Ide, i know i'd dump your ass if you got fat.
Quote from: katmai on March 19, 2013, 11:04:05 PM
It's okay Ide, i know i'd dump your ass if you got fat.
if?
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 10:52:17 PM
Should someone with anorexia nervosa be made to feel ugly and unattractive? Should she be shunned and ostracized? Or should she say, "Look at me! I'm awesome! I'm tiny, and I'm beautiful!"
I don't think any of those things happen. I think what happens is people say "Oh gurl, let me get you an extra helping. You need to put some meat on those bones."
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 11:12:01 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 10:52:17 PM
Should someone with anorexia nervosa be made to feel ugly and unattractive? Should she be shunned and ostracized? Or should she say, "Look at me! I'm awesome! I'm tiny, and I'm beautiful!"
I don't think any of those things happen. I think what happens is people say "Oh gurl, let me get you an extra helping. You need to put some meat on those bones."
and then they have uncomfortable boney sex.
Now ide's pants are a dairy factory.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 11:12:01 PM
I don't think any of those things happen. I think what happens is people say "Oh gurl, let me get you an extra helping. You need to put some meat on those bones."
Which could be taken for an insult just like a suggestion that one should join a gym.
I felt like an enabler giving that pro-ana link. -_-
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 11:12:01 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 10:52:17 PM
Should someone with anorexia nervosa be made to feel ugly and unattractive? Should she be shunned and ostracized? Or should she say, "Look at me! I'm awesome! I'm tiny, and I'm beautiful!"
I don't think any of those things happen. I think what happens is people say "Oh gurl, let me get you an extra helping. You need to put some meat on those bones."
I freely admit I have never said "gurl." :yeahright:
I also take it you didn't see what I did there. -_-
I wasn't trying to imitate you but give an honest reaction of people to anorexics. They want to feed them, not shame them. That's why though I saw what you were doing - ignored it as unrealistic.
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 11:12:01 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 10:52:17 PM
Should someone with anorexia nervosa be made to feel ugly and unattractive? Should she be shunned and ostracized? Or should she say, "Look at me! I'm awesome! I'm tiny, and I'm beautiful!"
I don't think any of those things happen. I think what happens is people say "Oh gurl, let me get you an extra helping. You need to put some meat on those bones."
I don't think Ide could pull off a matronly black grandmother without being insulting. Mmmm, greens.
Quote from: stjaba on March 19, 2013, 07:00:55 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Berk, you can definitely tell what causes sleep apnea. It's part of the tests they run.
But the rest of your argument stands. Okay, stjaba left his morbidly obese girlfriend because he was so concerned for her health that he had to go. I'm sure that was the case.
Truthfully, we broke up for a variety of reasons. She was approximately 140-145 pounds when we started dating. I wasn't weighing her on a regular basis, but she got to her peak weight maybe within a year of dating. She was close to 200 pounds. She was around 185 pounds when we broke up. For the majority of our relationship (3.5 years) she was obese (or morbidly obese).
With respect to why we broke up, I no longer was physically attracted to her. Watching her eat large quantities of food all the time disgusted me. She regularly out-ate me. She'd regularly eat a whole medium size pizza herself. I'd do everything I can to encourage her to eat healthier, or in smaller portions, but nothing worked.
I'd do everything I can to encourage her to work out or at least walk, and she'd refuse. I'd say, 'Why don't we work out together" and she'd complain that the apartment gym was too small and claustrophobic. I'd say, "Why don't we work out at the campus gym [not small or claustrophobic] and she complained that it was too big and had too many people. I'd say, why don't we work out in the morning when there's no one there, and she complained that it was too early. Same for late in the evening- "It's too late".
When I suggested making walking or running outside, the complaint was that it was either too hot or too cold. I'd encourage her to get healthy items, and she was offended. I tried subtle hints, and it never worked. I tried obvious hints, and it never worked. She was extremely sensitive about her weight, so I tried everything I could without being offensive to her. She asked me a million times if I thought she was fat, and I always lied and told her no.
When she wasn't in class, she spent her time in bed. She wouldn't even want to watch TV on the couch- she had to be prone in bed, all the time. She refused to do anything outside of the house because it was too hot, too cold, too late, or too early. The only activities she did outside the house involved shopping or sedentary things like watching movies.
Aside from all the weight issues, she was constantly depressed and in a bad mood. She cut herself and regularly overdosed on her prescription meds. She cut herself and was depressed because she was overweight. Eating made her feel better, so she just got fatter. She had constant issues with sleeping- she could never get enough sleep despite the fact she spent the day in bed and took constant naps (this is where the sleep apnea comes in). Note, that she started having sleep issues after she gained a lot of weight.
The interesting thing is that she used to be super fit and skinny. When she was in high school she was thin as a bone and ran cross country. When she was a freshman and sophomore, she worked out 2 hours a day at the campus gym and was super hot. But once she started gaining weight, she wouldn't work out anymore.
So, I put up with her for years. I took care of her for years, with little appreciation or thanks (aside from her parents). She was so lazy she'd refuse to get her own meds all the time. So I'd have to run by CVS every month to get them since she didn't want to do it. She didn't know how to run the dish washer or the clothes washer. After a while I got sick of dealing with her lazy ass. Good riddance.
I figured she would finally lose weight once we broke up, out of desperation. Based on a few pictures I've seen of her, it looks like she has lost a little weight, but she is still obese.
Basically, most of the issues in our relationship stemmed from her obesity. Her mental health issues got worse the fatter she got. Her desire to do things outside the house got worse over time. The fatter she got, the less attracted I was to her. The lazier she got, the more I resented her.
This is what happened to me, right down to the "laziness" and refusing to leave the house. I wasn't lazy. I was depressed. I wasn't ashamed of my size. I was depressed. The more anyone (myself included) addressed my weight, the more depressed I got, and the worse the situation became. It was cyclical, but it was only one small piece of the puzzle. I was also miserable in my marriage, unhappy with my career prospects (none), and suffering from post-partem blues.
I'll give my exhusband this. He understood the depression, even if he did little to help with it. He never called me lazy or disgusting. He just never knew what to do with the depression I was in, so he ran away rather than dealing with it.
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 09:28:44 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 19, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
What she gave up on was the idea that she had to be thin to be beautiful.
You know, I know you're gonna ignore me again, and that's cool, but why is it that the world must change to find overweight people attractive? I don't think anyone's ever said we should put them in camps. or suggesting they not be able to vote or legally work, or anything absurd like that. And, Internet comments on generalities notwithstanding, no one, afaik, is communicating abuse directly at any person in any form they're likely to see or hear it. (And fwiw, I've seen pictures of you, I think we all have, and we know you're not fat. So it also involves no indirect personal attack.)
So, no is denying the right of fat people to exist. I think the bottom line is that the majority don't think fat people are as attractive as thin people, including (hypocritically or not) other fat people. I dunno what kind of change you want to see in people, short of "You know, it turns out I do prefer women who are heavy." Which is, in my opinion, a bridge much too far.
My point wasn't that YOU should find her beautiful. Rather that she was starting to see herself as a beautiful person DESPITE her weight.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:21:56 AM
My point wasn't that YOU should find her beautiful. Rather that she was starting to see herself as a beautiful person DESPITE her weight.
Would you not have ill-will for the boyfriend/spouse who left her because he wasn't willing (or unable) to see her as a beautiful person despite her weight?
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:15:06 AM
He just never knew what to do with the depression I was in, so he ran away rather than dealing with it.
Not to get personal - but how does someone deal with someone else's depression?
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 08:30:26 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:15:06 AM
He just never knew what to do with the depression I was in, so he ran away rather than dealing with it.
Not to get personal - but how does someone deal with someone else's depression?
Part of the depression stemmed from his working 50-60 hours a week while I stayed home with three active toddlers and an infant who needed special care. Instead of coming home and helping me, he just worked longer hours, coming home to sleep eight hours, and then going back to the office. The more depressed I got, the less he was home, which led to more depression for me. Which also, by the way, led to more weight gain for me. And thoughts of suicide, though I left him before I ever got to the point of really considering it as an option.
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 08:29:36 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:21:56 AM
My point wasn't that YOU should find her beautiful. Rather that she was starting to see herself as a beautiful person DESPITE her weight.
Would you not have ill-will for the boyfriend/spouse who left her because he wasn't willing (or unable) to see her as a beautiful person despite her weight?
Lots of negatives in there. I'm trying to parse this out.
I love my husband because I think that he is a beautiful person. His weight has nothing to do with that. As an individual, he's amazing.
If he ballooned to 400 pounds, my physical attraction for him would probably waver, but I would still find him to be a beautiful person. And if my husband stopped trying, I would do all that I could to help him figure out why he gave up, how to make it better, and what we, as a couple, could do to make our lives together stronger. But then, I take my marriage vows very seriously, and always have. Weight just isn't a make-or-break item for breaking my vows to me.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:21:56 AM
Rather that she was starting to see herself as a beautiful person DESPITE her weight.
Well in my experience self-acceptance goes a long way in changing things in your life. If you are all hung up on something and psychologically beating yourself up about it, it gets difficult to do something about it. What you resist persists or something like that. Like I used to be very ashamed of my career and while that was going on practically everything I did about it was doomed to failure, I had to accept where I was before I could move forward. So that part of the 'fat acceptance' thing I can get.
What is a bit puzzling is then instead of doing the next thing, you drop all your BS setting your sights on what you want and what you are committed to and not have it all tied up in your self worth and self esteem and other nonsense, you simply declare you have already won. It would have been like me just saying 'you know what? I am just going to declare my career is great and ignore the things I really wanted to do'. That doesn't seem to me to be acceptance but more like deluding yourself as a way of dealing with still insanely tying this stuff up to your self worth....but maybe not maybe the 'fat acceptance' people in their heart of hearts have decided that this is where they truly want to be. But what the lady in the article was saying was rationalizations about how it wasn't really that bad, not exalting in the glory of her body which is what one would be doing if they really felt that this was great.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:36:36 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 08:30:26 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:15:06 AM
He just never knew what to do with the depression I was in, so he ran away rather than dealing with it.
Not to get personal - but how does someone deal with someone else's depression?
Part of the depression stemmed from his working 50-60 hours a week while I stayed home with three active toddlers and an infant who needed special care. Instead of coming home and helping me, he just worked longer hours, coming home to sleep eight hours, and then going back to the office. The more depressed I got, the less he was home, which led to more depression for me. Which also, by the way, led to more weight gain for me. And thoughts of suicide, though I left him before I ever got to the point of really considering it as an option.
Gotcha, thanks. :)
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:41:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 08:29:36 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:21:56 AM
My point wasn't that YOU should find her beautiful. Rather that she was starting to see herself as a beautiful person DESPITE her weight.
Would you not have ill-will for the boyfriend/spouse who left her because he wasn't willing (or unable) to see her as a beautiful person despite her weight?
Lots of negatives in there. I'm trying to parse this out.
I love my husband because I think that he is a beautiful person. His weight has nothing to do with that. As an individual, he's amazing.
If he ballooned to 400 pounds, my physical attraction for him would probably waver, but I would still find him to be a beautiful person. And if my husband stopped trying, I would do all that I could to help him figure out why he gave up, how to make it better, and what we, as a couple, could do to make our lives together stronger. But then, I take my marriage vows very seriously, and always have. Weight just isn't a make-or-break item for breaking my vows to me.
Okay, but would you find it problematic if someone left their spouse (or boyfriend/girlfriend) because the spouse decided to see herself a beautiful person DESPITE her weight and that someone was unable to feel the same?
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 08:42:31 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:21:56 AM
Rather that she was starting to see herself as a beautiful person DESPITE her weight.
Well in my experience self-acceptance goes a long way in changing things in your life. If you are all hung up on something and psychologically beating yourself up about it, it gets difficult to do something about it. What you resist persists or something like that. Like I used to be very ashamed of my career and while that was going on practically everything I did about it was doomed to failure, I had to accept where I was before I could move forward. So that part of the 'fat acceptance' thing I can get.
What is a bit puzzling is then instead of doing the next thing, you drop all your BS setting your sights on what you want and what you are committed to and not have it all tied up in your self worth and self esteem and other nonsense, you simply declare you have already won. It would have been like me just saying 'you know what? I am just going to declare my career is great and ignore the things I really wanted to do'. That doesn't seem to me to be acceptance but more like deluding yourself as a way of dealing with still insanely tying this stuff up to your self worth....but maybe not maybe the 'fat acceptance' people in their heart of hearts have decided that this is where they truly want to be. But what the lady in the article was saying was rationalizations about how it wasn't really that bad, not exalting in the glory of her body which is what one would be doing if they really felt that this was great.
Well put.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:36:36 AM
Part of the depression stemmed from his working 50-60 hours a week while I stayed home with three active toddlers and an infant who needed special care. Instead of coming home and helping me, he just worked longer hours, coming home to sleep eight hours, and then going back to the office. The more depressed I got, the less he was home, which led to more depression for me. Which also, by the way, led to more weight gain for me. And thoughts of suicide, though I left him before I ever got to the point of really considering it as an option.
That does not really sound much like what jaba was dealing with at all. You weren't lying in bed all day and refusing to do anything for years on end.
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 08:42:31 AM
Well in my experience self-acceptance goes a long way in changing things in your life. If you are all hung up on something and psychologically beating yourself up about it, it gets difficult to do something about it. What you resist persists or something like that. Like I used to be very ashamed of my career and while that was going on practically everything I did about it was doomed to failure, I had to accept where I was before I could move forward. So that part of the 'fat acceptance' thing I can get.
What is a bit puzzling is then instead of doing the next thing, you drop all your BS setting your sights on what you want and what you are committed to and not have it all tied up in your self worth and self esteem and other nonsense, you simply declare you have already won. It would have been like me just saying 'you know what? I am just going to declare my career is great and ignore the things I really wanted to do'. That doesn't seem to me to be acceptance but more like deluding yourself as a way of dealing with still insanely tying this stuff up to your self worth....but maybe not maybe the 'fat acceptance' people in their heart of hearts have decided that this is where they truly want to be. But what the lady in the article was saying was rationalizations about how it wasn't really that bad, not exalting in the glory of her body which is what one would be doing if they really felt that this was great.
Maybe this is step one for her. Given the pressure from society - and her husband - maybe she needs a little self-delusion to be able to get to that level of acceptance. Once there, she may decide to make other changes. I don't know; I'm not in her head.
I just know that there are an awful lot of my friends who believe that they are worthless because they are fat. They believe that they are ugly, useless, and complete failures. If they can find a way to love themselves as they are, there's a chance that they can later turn other things around, like their weight and their careers and their relationships. Honestly, the first step toward losing weight - for those who are really very overweight - isn't putting down the fork. Instead, it's being able to look at themselves in the mirror and seeing someone worth putting the fork down for.
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 08:47:41 AM
That does not really sound much like what jaba was dealing with at all. You weren't lying in bed all day and refusing to do anything for years on end.
I would have been were it not for the kids. What stjaba described is exactly what I was. I even remember making all of the excuses in my head on why I couldn't go out and do anything. Were it not for the kids, I wouldn't have left the house for anything.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:51:44 AM
Maybe this is step one for her. Given the pressure from society - and her husband - maybe she needs a little self-delusion to be able to get to that level of acceptance. Once there, she may decide to make other changes. I don't know; I'm not in her head.
I just know that there are an awful lot of my friends who believe that they are worthless because they are fat. They believe that they are ugly, useless, and complete failures. If they can find a way to love themselves as they are, there's a chance that they can later turn other things around, like their weight and their careers and their relationships. Honestly, the first step toward losing weight - for those who are really very overweight - isn't putting down the fork. Instead, it's being able to look at themselves in the mirror and seeing someone worth putting the fork down for.
I said it before but I think you are putting things into her situation that she never said. That woman said that she is done trying to lose weight and is learning to live with her own fat body. Nothing in that suggests that it is step 1 of a process. After all, if that was the case that's probably something she could have talked over with her husband. It seems odd, given that ample time has passed during their therapy seesions, that if that was her mindset - that she wouldn't have mentioned it in the article.
So, I hear what you're saying but I don't think it applies here.
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 08:46:41 AM
Okay, but would you find it problematic if someone left their spouse (or boyfriend/girlfriend) because the spouse decided to see herself a beautiful person DESPITE her weight and that someone was unable to feel the same?
I find it sad how quickly and easily people are willing to walk away from a committed relationship. I think that, for me, this isn't a good enough reason to walk. Do I understand it for someone else? I suppose I could, though I think that it's a poor reason to do so.
That being said, there were any number of people who thought my reasons for leaving my exhusband were poor, too, and ultimately, it's none of my business. I just think it's sad that people would use weight as a reason to leave a committed relationship. It's so inconsequential compared to all of the other variables in play between two people.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:51:44 AM
Maybe this is step one for her. Given the pressure from society - and her husband - maybe she needs a little self-delusion to be able to get to that level of acceptance. Once there, she may decide to make other changes. I don't know; I'm not in her head.
How would reaching a state of delusion empower and enable her to make other changes? I have yet to ever hear a self help program say 'the first step is delusion'.
QuoteI just know that there are an awful lot of my friends who believe that they are worthless because they are fat. They believe that they are ugly, useless, and complete failures. If they can find a way to love themselves as they are, there's a chance that they can later turn other things around, like their weight and their careers and their relationships. Honestly, the first step toward losing weight - for those who are really very overweight - isn't putting down the fork. Instead, it's being able to look at themselves in the mirror and seeing someone worth putting the fork down for.
Yep. Being an adult is about not letting circumstances and people dictate your self worth. It is really hard to function otherwise.
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 08:56:43 AM
I said it before but I think you are putting things into her situation that she never said. That woman said that she is done trying to lose weight and is learning to live with her own fat body. Nothing in that suggests that it is step 1 of a process. After all, if that was the case that's probably something she could have talked over with her husband. It seems odd, given that ample time has passed during their therapy seesions, that if that was her mindset - that she wouldn't have mentioned it in the article.
So, I hear what you're saying but I don't think it applies here.
Fair enough. I'll happily accept that I could be terribly wrong when it comes to this particular woman.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:59:56 AM
I find it sad how quickly and easily people are willing to walk away from a committed relationship. I think that, for me, this isn't a good enough reason to walk. Do I understand it for someone else? I suppose I could, though I think that it's a poor reason to do so.
That being said, there were any number of people who thought my reasons for leaving my exhusband were poor, too, and ultimately, it's none of my business. I just think it's sad that people would use weight as a reason to leave a committed relationship. It's so inconsequential compared to all of the other variables in play between two people.
Fair enough - though I think you are being a little unfair on a few points. I'm not sure that it would be a quick and easy decision to walk away as your spouse balloons and is unwilling to make changes. Clearly that wasn't the case for Jaba and he wasn't even married.
Also, as I've heard many say throughout the thread, the weight issue here is on some level a proxy for other problems - particularly the a spouse who has gained a bunch of wait and doesn't want to do anything about it. Or more specifically a person who has given up. It isn't just the weight gain but also the mentality that there's nothing to do or nothing that needs to be done.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 20, 2013, 06:24:30 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 11:12:01 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 19, 2013, 10:52:17 PM
Should someone with anorexia nervosa be made to feel ugly and unattractive? Should she be shunned and ostracized? Or should she say, "Look at me! I'm awesome! I'm tiny, and I'm beautiful!"
I don't think any of those things happen. I think what happens is people say "Oh gurl, let me get you an extra helping. You need to put some meat on those bones."
I don't think Ide could pull off a matronly black grandmother without being insulting. Mmmm, greens.
I can. I've practiced a lot :showoff:
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 09:04:39 AM
How would reaching a state of delusion empower and enable her to make other changes? I have yet to ever hear a self help program say 'the first step is delusion'.
Step 2: Eat lots of cheesecake :D
So that's what the hubbub was about, meri turned it all into being about her. ;)
Quote from: Legbiter on March 20, 2013, 09:32:16 AM
So that's what the hubbub was about, meri turned it all into being about her. ;)
She wouldn't be the first woman to do that :ph34r:
:rolleyes:
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:59:56 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 08:46:41 AM
Okay, but would you find it problematic if someone left their spouse (or boyfriend/girlfriend) because the spouse decided to see herself a beautiful person DESPITE her weight and that someone was unable to feel the same?
I find it sad how quickly and easily people are willing to walk away from a committed relationship. I think that, for me, this isn't a good enough reason to walk. Do I understand it for someone else? I suppose I could, though I think that it's a poor reason to do so.
That being said, there were any number of people who thought my reasons for leaving my exhusband were poor, too, and ultimately, it's none of my business. I just think it's sad that people would use weight as a reason to leave a committed relationship. It's so inconsequential compared to all of the other variables in play between two people.
While I generally agree with you, I do think that our society kind of over-states the importance of "commitment" in a manner that is not really conducive to good relationships, happiness, and even personal responsibilioty.
This entire weight thing is a good example. Should person A consider physical appearance so important that they would leave person B if their physical appearance changed enough, assuming a "committed" relationship?
Probably not.
On the other hand, I think there is this kind of "ideal" that people should be saints - that one should expect that their partner not just be human, but if they were really the wonderful people we demand, they would be willing to put up with our depression/weight/attitude/drinking whatever. Why, True Love is bigger than any of that! If you REALLY love me, it should not matter if I spend all our money, or don't take care of myself, or drink a little too much, or don't do the dishes now and again.
Personally, I think most people, and most relationships, would be better off if each person had the attitude that the other is not some wonder-saint whose incredible devotion to them will allow them to overlook our flaws. Again, using the weight thing as an example, even if your partner doesn't care, or would not leave you over it, I think it is in fact healthy to at least operate as if they might. You SHOULD be thinking "Hey, in addition to concerns about my personal health, etc., etc., *I* have a responsibility to my partner to do what I can to keep the physical part of our relationship strong, and there is nothing at all wrong with the attitude that I want my wife/husband to continue to find me physically desirable".
Lust is not a bad thing in a relationship.
But more to the point, and more in general, I think the idea that your relationship is so strong and swell that you don't have to continue to work hard at keeping it fresh, exciting, and interesting is very unfortunate. And not just because it may lead to the relationship falling apart (after all, maybe it really is that strong), but even if the relationship continues to survive, it won't be as good as it could be if both people, at least a little bit, approached it as if it was something that *would* fail if they don't take care to make sure it doesn't.
Frankly, I think the entire "till death do us part" concept in our society sucks. Not because it isn't a noble goal, but because the idea that if your marriage is really right it will last that long makes people stop working on it. There should be at least SOME element of the continuing awareness that you need to "sell" your partner on the continuing value of the relationship.
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 10:26:08 AM
But more to the point, and more in general, I think the idea that your relationship is so strong and swell that you don't have to continue to work hard at keeping it fresh, exciting, and interesting is very unfortunate. And not just because it may lead to the relationship falling apart (after all, maybe it really is that strong), but even if the relationship continues to survive, it won't be as good as it could be if both people, at least a little bit, approached it as if it was something that *would* fail if they don't take care to make sure it doesn't.
Frankly, I think the entire "till death do us part" concept in our society sucks. Not because it isn't a noble goal, but because the idea that if your marriage is really right it will last that long makes people stop working on it. There should be at least SOME element of the continuing awareness that you need to "sell" your partner on the continuing value of the relationship.
Well put.
Way I look at it, is that it's a fundamentally good idea to put concious effort into a relationship - and one way is to take care of one's appearances (leaving aside health matters for a sec).
I personally don't think that the motivator ought to be fear that the other person would leave if you don't, but rather the desire to make the other person happy. Though I suppose it amounts to much the same in the end.
Fear often isn't all that realistic as a motivator in some situations because leaving would be so very difficult (even if no ideal or stigma attached). If you have a house together, you have kids, and your social lives have been entwined for 20 years, it would take a pretty major amount of discontent for someone to uproot and leave, purely as a practical matter.
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 10:24:24 AM
:rolleyes:
Okay, gays do it, too. You people just *have* to be included in everything, don't you??? :P
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2013, 10:37:20 AM
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 10:26:08 AM
But more to the point, and more in general, I think the idea that your relationship is so strong and swell that you don't have to continue to work hard at keeping it fresh, exciting, and interesting is very unfortunate. And not just because it may lead to the relationship falling apart (after all, maybe it really is that strong), but even if the relationship continues to survive, it won't be as good as it could be if both people, at least a little bit, approached it as if it was something that *would* fail if they don't take care to make sure it doesn't.
Frankly, I think the entire "till death do us part" concept in our society sucks. Not because it isn't a noble goal, but because the idea that if your marriage is really right it will last that long makes people stop working on it. There should be at least SOME element of the continuing awareness that you need to "sell" your partner on the continuing value of the relationship.
Well put.
Way I look at it, is that it's a fundamentally good idea to put concious effort into a relationship - and one way is to take care of one's appearances (leaving aside health matters for a sec).
I personally don't think that the motivator ought to be fear that the other person would leave if you don't, but rather the desire to make the other person happy. Though I suppose it amounts to much the same in the end.
Fear often isn't all that realistic as a motivator in some situations because leaving would be so very difficult (even if no ideal or stigma attached). If you have a house together, you have kids, and your social lives have been entwined for 20 years, it would take a pretty major amount of discontent for someone to uproot and leave, purely as a practical matter.
A lot of fear is a terrible, terrible thing. A little bit, though, is a fairly powerful motivator.
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2013, 10:37:20 AM
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 10:26:08 AM
But more to the point, and more in general, I think the idea that your relationship is so strong and swell that you don't have to continue to work hard at keeping it fresh, exciting, and interesting is very unfortunate. And not just because it may lead to the relationship falling apart (after all, maybe it really is that strong), but even if the relationship continues to survive, it won't be as good as it could be if both people, at least a little bit, approached it as if it was something that *would* fail if they don't take care to make sure it doesn't.
Frankly, I think the entire "till death do us part" concept in our society sucks. Not because it isn't a noble goal, but because the idea that if your marriage is really right it will last that long makes people stop working on it. There should be at least SOME element of the continuing awareness that you need to "sell" your partner on the continuing value of the relationship.
Well put.
Way I look at it, is that it's a fundamentally good idea to put concious effort into a relationship - and one way is to take care of one's appearances (leaving aside health matters for a sec).
I personally don't think that the motivator ought to be fear that the other person would leave if you don't, but rather the desire to make the other person happy. Though I suppose it amounts to much the same in the end.
Fear often isn't all that realistic as a motivator in some situations because leaving would be so very difficult (even if no ideal or stigma attached). If you have a house together, you have kids, and your social lives have been entwined for 20 years, it would take a pretty major amount of discontent for someone to uproot and leave, purely as a practical matter.
Yes, I don't think the motivator should be actual fear - it should almost be fake fear.
You should go around *thinking* like it is real, even if it is not. Some healthy self-deception, although not real per se.
And yes, the actual motivator is in fact the desire to make the other person happy. But a smidgen of "Hey, I want this person to WANT to stay with me for the same reasons they wanted to be with me when we started dating, NOT just because we are so entwined that separation just isn't realistic" is very, very healthy.
I guess it comes down to simply not taking your spouse for granted, and I mean that in a very practical manner, not in the cliche "Words that we all say, but don't actually result in any change whatsoever in our behavior" manner that so many people seem to take it in.
You really should act as if they may say "Fuck it, I am out of here" if you don't make sure they want to be with you, even if you really do know there isn't any practical chance of that happening.
:yes:
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 10:24:24 AM
:rolleyes:
Yeah you guys are laying it on sorta thick don't you think?
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 10:26:08 AM
While I generally agree with you, I do think that our society kind of over-states the importance of "commitment" in a manner that is not really conducive to good relationships, happiness, and even personal responsibilioty.
This entire weight thing is a good example. Should person A consider physical appearance so important that they would leave person B if their physical appearance changed enough, assuming a "committed" relationship?
Probably not.
On the other hand, I think there is this kind of "ideal" that people should be saints - that one should expect that their partner not just be human, but if they were really the wonderful people we demand, they would be willing to put up with our depression/weight/attitude/drinking whatever. Why, True Love is bigger than any of that! If you REALLY love me, it should not matter if I spend all our money, or don't take care of myself, or drink a little too much, or don't do the dishes now and again.
Personally, I think most people, and most relationships, would be better off if each person had the attitude that the other is not some wonder-saint whose incredible devotion to them will allow them to overlook our flaws. Again, using the weight thing as an example, even if your partner doesn't care, or would not leave you over it, I think it is in fact healthy to at least operate as if they might. You SHOULD be thinking "Hey, in addition to concerns about my personal health, etc., etc., *I* have a responsibility to my partner to do what I can to keep the physical part of our relationship strong, and there is nothing at all wrong with the attitude that I want my wife/husband to continue to find me physically desirable".
Lust is not a bad thing in a relationship.
But more to the point, and more in general, I think the idea that your relationship is so strong and swell that you don't have to continue to work hard at keeping it fresh, exciting, and interesting is very unfortunate. And not just because it may lead to the relationship falling apart (after all, maybe it really is that strong), but even if the relationship continues to survive, it won't be as good as it could be if both people, at least a little bit, approached it as if it was something that *would* fail if they don't take care to make sure it doesn't.
Frankly, I think the entire "till death do us part" concept in our society sucks. Not because it isn't a noble goal, but because the idea that if your marriage is really right it will last that long makes people stop working on it. There should be at least SOME element of the continuing awareness that you need to "sell" your partner on the continuing value of the relationship.
I agree with everything that you say. It is, to my mind, congruent with my earlier point, not contrary to it. BOTH parties should work hard to make the relationship work, and when one side gives up entirely (on the relationship, not on one aspect of themselves), then it's time to seriously decide if it's worth carrying the load on your own or getting out and finding someone who can be a true partner to you.
Well said, Berk. :hug:
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 10:24:24 AM
:rolleyes:
Yeah you guys are laying it on sorta thick don't you think?
Divorce rate in our society is right around 50%. Something needs to be laid on quite bit thicker than it is now.
Personally, I blame the continuing influence of the Christian "ideal" in what defines marriage, sex, relationships, and the related "mysticism" that goes along with people's concept of what "love" is.
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 11:55:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 10:24:24 AM
:rolleyes:
Yeah you guys are laying it on sorta thick don't you think?
Divorce rate in our society is right around 50%. Something needs to be laid on quite bit thicker than it is now.
Personally, I blame the continuing influence of the Christian "ideal" in what defines marriage, sex, relationships, and the related "mysticism" that goes along with people's concept of what "love" is.
The rolleyes was at legbiter and der who were so lamely throwing poo at Meri. Nothing to do with your recent posts.
Yeah, that's it, Berk. Blame the Christians :lol:
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 11:10:12 AM
You really should act as if they may say "Fuck it, I am out of here" if you don't make sure they want to be with you, even if you really do know there isn't any practical chance of that happening.
That, to me, is the difference between co-dependence and a healthy relationship. One should never feel so settled as to believe that their partner won't leave. I know that Max would be just fine without me, so I work to make sure that he's happy enough to stay.
Quote from: derspiess on March 20, 2013, 11:57:17 AM
Yeah, that's it, Berk. Blame the Christians :lol:
OK.
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 11:59:32 AM
Quote from: derspiess on March 20, 2013, 11:57:17 AM
Yeah, that's it, Berk. Blame the Christians :lol:
OK.
Actually, I take that back - I am not blaming the Christians, I am blaming Christianity. Not really the same thing.
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 12:00:30 PM
Actually, I take that back - I am not blaming the Christians, I am blaming Christianity. Not really the same thing.
OK.
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 11:55:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 10:24:24 AM
:rolleyes:
Yeah you guys are laying it on sorta thick don't you think?
Divorce rate in our society is right around 50%. Something needs to be laid on quite bit thicker than it is now.
Personally, I blame the continuing influence of the Christian "ideal" in what defines marriage, sex, relationships, and the related "mysticism" that goes along with people's concept of what "love" is.
I "blame" people living a hell of a lot longer and female financial freedom. And I guess, to keep with the threads theme, wives getting fatter :P
Quote from: HVC on March 20, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
I "blame" people living a hell of a lot longer and female financial freedom. And I guess, to keep with the threads theme, wives getting fatter :P
So, basically, you blame the current divorce rate on women?
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 11:55:42 AM
Personally, I blame the continuing influence of the Christian "ideal" in what defines marriage, sex, relationships, and the related "mysticism" that goes along with people's concept of what "love" is.
:yes:
The state of being "in love", which lasts for about 2 years on average, is a chemical process.
Real love, which hopefully comes after that (but often doesn't, after the shine wears off) is a series of choices - sometimes really difficult ones - with absolutely no Platonic ideal at the end of the road.
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 11:55:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 10:24:24 AM
:rolleyes:
Yeah you guys are laying it on sorta thick don't you think?
Divorce rate in our society is right around 50%. Something needs to be laid on quite bit thicker than it is now.
Personally, I blame the continuing influence of the Christian "ideal" in what defines marriage, sex, relationships, and the related "mysticism" that goes along with people's concept of what "love" is.
Not sure I understand the divorce rate point. If divorce rates were lower, could than not simply mean more people were buying into the "mysticism"? And if they were higher, that less were?
In short, what would the divorce rate be in the ideal society? Very high, because people had a low tolerance for bullshit in a relationship and were not restrained by some artificial desire based on an unrealistically mystical view of love to keep a marriage going where it should not, or very low, because people were so well-adjusted they rarely made the mistake of marrying the wrong person?
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 20, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
I "blame" people living a hell of a lot longer and female financial freedom. And I guess, to keep with the threads theme, wives getting fatter :P
So, basically, you blame the current divorce rate on women?
huh? No, I'm saying people live longer and so have more time to change and grow apart and that now women don't have to stay in an abusive/miserable relationship out of financial need. I think those are the two leading causes.
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2013, 12:09:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 20, 2013, 11:55:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 10:24:24 AM
:rolleyes:
Yeah you guys are laying it on sorta thick don't you think?
Divorce rate in our society is right around 50%. Something needs to be laid on quite bit thicker than it is now.
Personally, I blame the continuing influence of the Christian "ideal" in what defines marriage, sex, relationships, and the related "mysticism" that goes along with people's concept of what "love" is.
Not sure I understand the divorce rate point. If divorce rates were lower, could than not simply mean more people were buying into the "mysticism"? And if they were higher, that less were?
In short, what would the divorce rate be in the ideal society? Very high, because people had a low tolerance for bullshit in a relationship and were not restrained by some artificial desire based on an unrealistically mystical view of love to keep a marriage going where it should not, or very low, because people were so well-adjusted they rarely made the mistake of marrying the wrong person?
Considerably lower than it is now, but not super low.
Ideally, we would see two things that would result in a lower divorce rate:
1. A healthier understanding of what makes a relationship actually viable in the long run, resulting in grater consideration going into the decision to get married, and fewer "doomed" marriages, and
2. A better understanding of what it takes to make a marriage work over the long run, and a better appreciation for the week by wekk effort necessary to make marriage work and be great, resulting in fewer marriages ending in divorce that could be saved.
But I don't think the number would (or should) be so low that there is a pressure to make a marriage survive even if it isn't really working. There are things that happen that are beyond the control of the people involved - people change, their priorities change, and sometimes that just means that a marriage entered into with open eyes and clear intentions may simply reach it's natural endpoint. But I think that would be a relatively atypical occurrence.
Emperor Fahdiz proposes a 3-year waiting period on marriage; like gun control, but better.
Quote from: HVC on March 20, 2013, 12:10:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 20, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
I "blame" people living a hell of a lot longer and female financial freedom. And I guess, to keep with the threads theme, wives getting fatter :P
So, basically, you blame the current divorce rate on women?
huh? No, I'm saying people live longer and so have more time to change and grow apart and that now women don't have to stay in an abusive/miserable relationship out of financial need. I think those are the two leading causes.
Your post:
I blame people living longer. (Gender neutral)
I blame financial independence of women. (Women)
I blame women getting fatter. (Women)
:hmm:
Your clarification helps, but I'm still watching you... :mad:
Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 12:16:43 PM
Emperor Fahdiz proposes a 3-year waiting period on marriage; like gun control, but better.
And no marriages before the age of 25. :contract:
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 12:18:25 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 12:16:43 PM
Emperor Fahdiz proposes a 3-year waiting period on marriage; like gun control, but better.
And no marriages before the age of 25. :contract:
:D :thumbsup:
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 12:17:24 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 20, 2013, 12:10:39 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 20, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
I "blame" people living a hell of a lot longer and female financial freedom. And I guess, to keep with the threads theme, wives getting fatter :P
So, basically, you blame the current divorce rate on women?
huh? No, I'm saying people live longer and so have more time to change and grow apart and that now women don't have to stay in an abusive/miserable relationship out of financial need. I think those are the two leading causes.
Your post:
I blame people living longer. (Gender neutral)
I blame financial independence of women. (Women)
I blame women getting fatter. (Women)
:hmm:
Your clarification helps, but I'm still watching you... :mad:
not everyone on languish hates women... Just most of them :P
There is so much entitlement out there. A relationship is something you have to invest in. It's not magic. It's work. So many people are unwilling to "settle" or put any work into it. They'll just ditch because they're not haaappy.
I can't see it as a negative thing that maybe less women are "trapped" in marriages they don't like for financial reasons. I put it down to people just having unrealistic expectations. Just give up and go make a 50-point list of requirements on an online dating site instead. :P
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 20, 2013, 12:21:58 PM
There is so much entitlement out there. A relationship is something you have to invest in. It's not magic. It's work. So many people are unwilling to "settle" or put any work into it. They'll just ditch because they're not haaappy.
I can't see it as a negative thing that maybe less women are "trapped" in marriages they don't like for financial reasons. I put it down to people just having unrealistic expectations. Just give up and go make a 50-point list of requirements on an online dating site instead. :P
Exactly.
To bring it back on topic, hence my disappointment that so many would be willing to leave their wife because she gained weight.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 12:25:32 PM
Exactly.
To bring it back on topic, hence my disappointment that so many would be willing to leave their wife because she gained weight.
That was not exactly the subject of the poll.
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 12:34:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 12:25:32 PM
Exactly.
To bring it back on topic, hence my disappointment that so many would be willing to leave their wife because she gained weight.
That was not exactly the subject of the poll.
If we're going by the strict wording of the poll, it's exactly the subject of the poll :D
Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 12:36:56 PM
If we're going by the strict wording of the poll, it's exactly the subject of the poll :D
Well Spicey said he would not but he voted yes, saying he would understand somebody else doing it...so no it is not. It is theoretical not you specifically.
Martinus almost certainly voted yes and he is unlikely to have a wife at any point in the present or future.
I think most people voting yes did so under the assumption that they had put all the appropriate effort into the situation and it had become intractable. Obviously, there is a gradient. The people in the article worked on their situation for years. It wasn't sudden or frivolous.
Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 12:16:43 PM
Emperor Fahdiz proposes a 3-year waiting period on marriage; like gun control, but better.
Emperor fhdz, is that really the best though? After all, we've already seen declines in marriages among those who cohabit before getting married.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:36:36 AM
Part of the depression stemmed from his working 50-60 hours a week while I stayed home with three active toddlers and an infant who needed special care. Instead of coming home and helping me, he just worked longer hours, coming home to sleep eight hours, and then going back to the office. The more depressed I got, the less he was home, which led to more depression for me. Which also, by the way, led to more weight gain for me. And thoughts of suicide, though I left him before I ever got to the point of really considering it as an option.
So you left him because he wasn't meeting your needs. Much like Jaba left his gf because he didn't know how to meet hers. So why are you giving him such a hard time? Seems both breakups were in everyone's best interests.
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 01:00:48 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 12:16:43 PM
Emperor Fahdiz proposes a 3-year waiting period on marriage; like gun control, but better.
Emperor fhdz, is that really the best though? After all, we've already seen declines in marriages among those who cohabit before getting married.
Well, it only solves one problem with relationships, which is that you ought to at least get the "my partner can do no wrong" shine out of the way before you commit to spending your lives together, since of course we all can do wrong - and sometimes really wrong. There are a myriad of other problems, too, but the "in-love" one is an important one to realize.
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 12:38:31 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 12:36:56 PM
If we're going by the strict wording of the poll, it's exactly the subject of the poll :D
Well Spicey said he would not but he voted yes, saying he would understand somebody else doing it...so no it is not. It is theoretical not you specifically.
Martinus almost certainly voted yes and he is unlikely to have a wife at any point in the present or future.
I voted yes. But I fall under the same premise as Martinus, minus the pillow nibblage.
Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 01:12:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 01:00:48 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 12:16:43 PM
Emperor Fahdiz proposes a 3-year waiting period on marriage; like gun control, but better.
Emperor fhdz, is that really the best though? After all, we've already seen declines in marriages among those who cohabit before getting married.
Well, it only solves one problem with relationships, which is that you ought to at least get the "my partner can do no wrong" shine out of the way before you commit to spending your lives together, since of course we all can do wrong - and sometimes really wrong. There are a myriad of other problems, too, but the "in-love" one is an important one to realize.
Sure but it also seems like it could lead to people simply not getting married. Do we want to be Quebec?
You know, marriage gets so nasty, especially when one is married to a whiny bitch, that I can see why some guys would opt for the "divorce when she gets too much butter" routine. Many is the time that the lady was shedding for the wedding, and then when the tux is back at the rental counter she starts eating bon bons and big macs, forgetting to exercise, and having her ass grow to the size of both the aisle and center seat in economy class.
But some folks still do takes those vows pretty damn seriously. If this is the case, than the guy becoming a fat enabler might help out. Buy her a couple extra burgers, along with two fries. Tell her about the supposed problems with artificial sweeteners and refuse to buy anything without hydrogenated oils - for her health. After a while she won't even have the ability to move much, and that entire "til death do us part" business takes care of itself. Oh, make sure there is good insurance.
Solving problems in marriage means long term commitments.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 20, 2013, 01:09:49 PM
So you left him because he wasn't meeting your needs. Much like Jaba left his gf because he didn't know how to meet hers. So why are you giving him such a hard time? Seems both breakups were in everyone's best interests.
It sounds to me like it was more of she wasn't willing to meet his requirements of her rather than that he didn't know how to meet hers, but I may be biased. :sleep:
Quote from: PDH on March 20, 2013, 01:22:02 PM
You know, marriage gets so nasty, especially when one is married to a whiny bitch, that I can see why some guys would opt for the "divorce when she gets too much butter" routine. Many is the time that the lady was shedding for the wedding, and then when the tux is back at the rental counter she starts eating bon bons and big macs, forgetting to exercise, and having her ass grow to the size of both the aisle and center seat in economy class.
But some folks still do takes those vows pretty damn seriously. If this is the case, than the guy becoming a fat enabler might help out. Buy her a couple extra burgers, along with two fries. Tell her about the supposed problems with artificial sweeteners and refuse to buy anything without hydrogenated oils - for her health. After a while she won't even have the ability to move much, and that entire "til death do us part" business takes care of itself. Oh, make sure there is good insurance.
Solving problems in marriage means long term commitments.
:lol: :lol: :lol: PDH GOES IN FOR THE FINISHING MOVE
Quote from: PDH on March 20, 2013, 01:22:02 PM
Solving problems in marriage means long term commitments.
Well done
Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 12:38:31 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 12:36:56 PM
If we're going by the strict wording of the poll, it's exactly the subject of the poll :D
Well Spicey said he would not but he voted yes, saying he would understand somebody else doing it...so no it is not. It is theoretical not you specifically.
Martinus almost certainly voted yes and he is unlikely to have a wife at any point in the present or future.
The question is about spouse not wife - sorry I did not notice the "breeders only" sign at the door. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2013, 03:20:15 PM
The question is about spouse not wife - sorry I did not notice the "breeders only" sign at the door. :rolleyes:
I know that was what I was saying :rolleyes:
Read what I was responding to.
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2013, 10:37:20 AM
Fear often isn't all that realistic as a motivator in some situations because leaving would be so very difficult (even if no ideal or stigma attached). If you have a house together, you have kids, and your social lives have been entwined for 20 years, it would take a pretty major amount of discontent for someone to uproot and leave, purely as a practical matter.
Leaving is difficult. having an affair, not so much.
Quote from: Iormlund on March 20, 2013, 06:32:33 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 20, 2013, 10:37:20 AM
Fear often isn't all that realistic as a motivator in some situations because leaving would be so very difficult (even if no ideal or stigma attached). If you have a house together, you have kids, and your social lives have been entwined for 20 years, it would take a pretty major amount of discontent for someone to uproot and leave, purely as a practical matter.
Leaving is difficult. having an affair, not so much.
I don't understand the big fuss about that unless it's just because it feeds into the fear of them leaving.
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:41:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 08:29:36 AM
Quote from: merithyn on March 20, 2013, 08:21:56 AM
My point wasn't that YOU should find her beautiful. Rather that she was starting to see herself as a beautiful person DESPITE her weight.
Would you not have ill-will for the boyfriend/spouse who left her because he wasn't willing (or unable) to see her as a beautiful person despite her weight?
Lots of negatives in there. I'm trying to parse this out.
I love my husband because I think that he is a beautiful person. His weight has nothing to do with that. As an individual, he's amazing.
If he ballooned to 400 pounds, my physical attraction for him would probably waver, but I would still find him to be a beautiful person. And if my husband stopped trying, I would do all that I could to help him figure out why he gave up, how to make it better, and what we, as a couple, could do to make our lives together stronger. But then, I take my marriage vows very seriously, and always have. Weight just isn't a make-or-break item for breaking my vows to me.
Yeah, but garbon encapsulated what I was saying--to use contract terminology, you're basically saying that a person, no longer attracted to a spouse, is the breaching party, regardless of how they stopped finding their spouse attractive, and they should continue to perform their relationship duties and deserve social opprobrium if they don't.
See, my thing is that if the loss of attractiveness by one party is that party's fault (and if it's unjustified by circumstances), that's the breach.
So--getting old, getting pregnant, or getting into a disfiguring accident are either inevitable or are risks contemplated by the parties, and not ordinarily not good excuses for performance. But failing to exercise basic preservation of appearance is a material breach, in the same way reducing sex to a trickle or punching one's partner in the face is, however more subtle.
Here's a question: does someone whose spouse has become progressively less attractive to them due to weight gain still have a duty to pretend to find that person attractive, perhaps up to and including the marriage act? If not, are they justified in simply no longer providing that kind of physical affection (and let's say for the sake of argument psychological and emotional affection remains 100%, and that the withholding of sex is not used as an overt punishment or ongoing threat)? What happens when the relationship is essentially just a legally-bound friendship? I guess what I'm asking is whether someone should have to choose between sex they find unappealing, perhaps repellant, no sex at all, or being the bad guy by breaking off a (physically) loveless relationship?
So, what's the consensus? Good reason or not?
Quote from: DGuller on March 21, 2013, 12:11:13 AM
So, what's the consensus? Good reason or not?
Hmm, possible split. We would have to reassess in ten or so pages. :P
Quote from: DGuller on March 21, 2013, 12:11:13 AM
So, what's the consensus? Good reason or not?
Good reason when your spouse becomes fat and you leave her/him. Bad reason when you become fat and your spouse leaves you. :contract:
So....the conclusion of this thread: Don't get married. Better safe than sorry.
:unsure:?
Frankly, I think I have a responsibility to try to be what my spouse finds attractive. If I stop attempting to be that, I will view my own conduct as a breach of my vows.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 21, 2013, 03:09:33 AM
Frankly, I think I have a responsibility to try to be what my spouse finds attractive. If I stop attempting to be that, I will view my own conduct as a breach of my vows.
Yup, a better way of thinking about it is: what are *my* obligations? If you are comfortable imposing them on yourself, it makes more sense to consider them a rule of general application. [/Kant]
For the ladies (and gay men): Is penis size a deal breaker?
http://gawker.com/5991760/size-does-matter-to-woman-who-divorced-her-husband-over-irreconcilable-penis-length
QuoteA woman in Taiwan recently divorced her husband, citing irreconcilable differences. Namely, the difference between what she expected his penis size to be, and what it ultimately was.
The couple, identified as Zhang and Zhou, met about five years ago, and dated for five months before deciding to tie the knot.
Zhou, a 55-year-old civil servant, allegedly refused to have sex before marriage, claiming he believed in one of those religions where premarital sex is a sin.
But come their wedding night, Zhang realized she probably should have insisted on trying before buying.
"His penis is so small, like a kid's, only 5cm [2"] long," the 52-year-old told a local paper.
Worse still for Zhang — who says she was promised sex at least three times a week — her new husband was also impotent. "We quarreled the whole night and I asked him to seek treatment," she said.
The two immediately separated, but tried to make it work several times since with little luck. Eventually, Zhang filed for divorce, and Zhou gave up any effort to salvage his marriage.
For his part, Zhou says his erectile dysfunction isn't even medical — it's elective.
"I prefer to have sex in the morning but she wanted it around midnight, by then I would be very tired," he is quoted as saying.
A similar case involving a Taiwanese woman who had filed for divorce over her husband penis size made headlines four years ago.
In that instance, however, the court rejected the woman's request, saying penis size was "very subjective."
Quote from: DGuller on March 21, 2013, 12:11:13 AM
So, what's the consensus? Good reason or not?
The concession is yes it's alright to leave a spouse, though Meri argues it's only okay to leave a
husband in such a situation.
Quote from: stjaba on March 21, 2013, 07:54:51 PM
For the ladies (and gay men): Is penis size a deal breaker?
http://gawker.com/5991760/size-does-matter-to-woman-who-divorced-her-husband-over-irreconcilable-penis-length
QuoteA woman in Taiwan recently divorced her husband, citing irreconcilable differences. Namely, the difference between what she expected his penis size to be, and what it ultimately was.
The couple, identified as Zhang and Zhou, met about five years ago, and dated for five months before deciding to tie the knot.
Zhou, a 55-year-old civil servant, allegedly refused to have sex before marriage, claiming he believed in one of those religions where premarital sex is a sin.
But come their wedding night, Zhang realized she probably should have insisted on trying before buying.
"His penis is so small, like a kid's, only 5cm [2"] long," the 52-year-old told a local paper.
Worse still for Zhang — who says she was promised sex at least three times a week — her new husband was also impotent. "We quarreled the whole night and I asked him to seek treatment," she said.
The two immediately separated, but tried to make it work several times since with little luck. Eventually, Zhang filed for divorce, and Zhou gave up any effort to salvage his marriage.
For his part, Zhou says his erectile dysfunction isn't even medical — it's elective.
"I prefer to have sex in the morning but she wanted it around midnight, by then I would be very tired," he is quoted as saying.
A similar case involving a Taiwanese woman who had filed for divorce over her husband penis size made headlines four years ago.
In that instance, however, the court rejected the woman's request, saying penis size was "very subjective."
Sure. I've encountered men with massive ones that I'm like no, don't want that sticking into anything. Same with the too small ones. Really, you gotta expect people are going to be a regular Goldicocks and want it just right.
Are lousy kegel muscles a dealbreaker? Discuss.
I'm gonna say that if you haven't seen someone's dick by the time you're married to them, you're doing it wrong. But, with modern technology, perhaps you can supplement your unfortunate penis cybernetically.
I didn't know it was even possible for an adult one to be only two inches long. Damn. Poor guy.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 21, 2013, 08:33:38 PM
I didn't know it was even possible for an adult one to be only two inches long. Damn. Poor guy.
Well, he was impotent so she never saw it at full size.
:huh:
Power Dongin'
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdailypicksandflicks.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F11%2FIron-Crotch.jpg&hash=d95878216797b61b344991435e9a7f1bd0695f2a)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7CuhsD5oVM
:pinch: :pinch: :pinch: I hope that's a strap that's hanging out.
Quote from: Ideologue on March 21, 2013, 08:25:47 PM
Are lousy kegel muscles a dealbreaker? Discuss.
I'm gonna say that if you haven't seen someone's dick by the time you're married to them, you're doing it wrong.
Hell yes. :blink:
I see what happened though. The guy knew there would be this reaction and the two were both desperate unmarried 50 somethings (you'd think the desperation would have expired and moved into acceptance by then) who dashed into it.
As an interesting follow up, I've heard unconfirmed reports out of Gainesville that my obese ex girlfriend has lost so much weight that she is apparently unrecognizable. On one hand my attitude is like :glare: since she never tried when we were together. On the other hand if she hadn't ballooned, it would have been much harder to break up with her. Ultimately regardless of her weight, we needed to break up.
assuming its true she lost weight, I feel bad for the next guy she dates. May he have more patience than I....
Hey maybe the breakup was the catalyst she needed.
Quote from: stjaba on April 01, 2013, 11:59:47 AM
As an interesting follow up, I've heard unconfirmed reports out of Gainesville that my obese ex girlfriend has lost so much weight that she is apparently unrecognizable. On one hand my attitude is like :glare: since she never tried when we were together. On the other hand if she hadn't ballooned, it would have been much harder to break up with her. Ultimately regardless of her weight, we needed to break up.
assuming its true she lost weight, I feel bad for the next guy she dates. May he have more patience than I....
I had a serious girlfriend in the mid to late 90s that was not fat IMO but slightly on the full-figured side. I was plenty attracted to her at the time (though with hindsight I'm not sure I understand why), but a year or so after I broke up with her I saw her out and she was skinny-- and much hotter than she was before. I kind of felt insulted that she didn't feel the need to look that good while we dated & was going to sort of half-seriously give her shit for it-- until I found out that she had come down with a serious case of the shingles that put her out of work for several weeks and obviously caused her to lose a lot of weight :lol:
Going by Facebook, she now weighs more than she ever did. Maybe her cake artist hobby/side business wasn't the best idea :ph34r:
If it is true that she lost weight, the last thing I would want to do is see her in person. Id hate to backslide.
MIM,
Theres no question breaking up was the catalyst. If there's one thing that motivates women, its the fear of being alone .
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 01, 2013, 12:09:05 PM
Hey maybe the breakup was the catalyst she needed.
Yeah, maybe Saint Jabba was the problem after all. :lol:
Quote from: stjaba on April 01, 2013, 12:51:10 PM
If it is true that she lost weight, the last thing I would want to do is see her in person. Id hate to backslide.
Just focus on those fucked-up cutting scars and you'll be ok. :)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 01, 2013, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 01, 2013, 12:09:05 PM
Hey maybe the breakup was the catalyst she needed.
Yeah, maybe Saint Jabba was the problem after all. :lol:
You are right in a sense. I enabled her ridiculous behavior.
Quote from: stjaba on April 01, 2013, 12:51:10 PM
If it is true that she lost weight, the last thing I would want to do is see her in person. Id hate to backslide.
MIM,
Theres no question breaking up was the catalyst. If there's one thing that motivates women people, its the fear of being alone .
Quote from: Ideologue on April 01, 2013, 03:08:47 PM
Quote from: stjaba on April 01, 2013, 12:51:10 PM
Theres no question breaking up was the catalyst. If there's one thing that motivates women people, its the fear of being alone .
Is that true though? I worked harder so I could afford to live alone. :D
You deserve to nail thin version of your ex as payment for all the years of having to nail the fat version.
*doing this may or may not be good advise. I'm erring on not good :lol:
Quote from: HVC on April 01, 2013, 05:01:08 PM
You deserve to nail thin version of your ex as payment for all the years of having to nail the fat version.
*doing this may or may not be good advise. I'm erring on not good :lol:
Knowing my luck, she would be off whore pills and my condom would fail, and I would accidentally impregnate her :D
You worry too much. Go back & take her for a spin. Then never call her again.
Quote from: garbon on April 01, 2013, 03:50:23 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 01, 2013, 03:08:47 PM
Quote from: stjaba on April 01, 2013, 12:51:10 PM
Theres no question breaking up was the catalyst. If there's one thing that motivates women people, its the fear of being alone .
Is that true though? I worked harder so I could afford to live alone. :D
:P You know what I meant.
Quote from: stjaba on April 01, 2013, 09:54:31 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 01, 2013, 05:01:08 PM
You deserve to nail thin version of your ex as payment for all the years of having to nail the fat version.
*doing this may or may not be good advise. I'm erring on not good :lol:
Knowing my luck, she would be off whore pills and my condom would fail, and I would accidentally impregnate her :D
And that's why you do what, class?
COME ON HER FACE!
That's right, class!
fahdiz has semen-stained footprints everywhere. Makes the carpet all crunchy-like.
Quote from: derspiess on April 01, 2013, 10:00:02 PM
You worry too much. Go back & take her for a spin. Then never call her again.
After you quit smoking, lighting up once for the old times sake is usually a pretty bad idea.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 02, 2013, 09:08:35 AM
fahdiz has semen-stained footprints everywhere. Makes the carpet all crunchy-like.
Gross.
Quote from: DGuller on April 02, 2013, 09:16:18 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 01, 2013, 10:00:02 PM
You worry too much. Go back & take her for a spin. Then never call her again.
After you quit smoking, lighting up once for the old times sake is usually a pretty bad idea.
You're no fun. Accountants :rolleyes:
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2013, 09:44:12 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 02, 2013, 09:16:18 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 01, 2013, 10:00:02 PM
You worry too much. Go back & take her for a spin. Then never call her again.
After you quit smoking, lighting up once for the old times sake is usually a pretty bad idea.
You're no fun. Accountants :rolleyes:
Hey, this accountant smokes and would nail the ex. Must be a Russian accountant thing.
It is a well known scientific fact that actuaries, contrary to accountants, keep their genitalia in an easy-to-reach fanny pack for storage and safekeeping.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 02, 2013, 10:41:05 AM
It is a well known scientific fact that actuaries, contrary to accountants, keep their genitalia in an easy-to-reach fanny pack for storage and safekeeping.
:hug:
He didn't clarify where you keep your junk.
I suppose keeping your pussy in a fanny pack is apt.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 02, 2013, 10:41:05 AM
It is a well known scientific fact that actuaries, contrary to accountants, keep their genitalia in an easy-to-reach fanny pack for storage and safekeeping.
If they're married, the safekeeping is done in the wife's purse.
So is this a victory for fat acceptance? :D
http://www.myfoxny.com/story/21888847/target-apologizes-for-label-on-plus-size-dress
QuoteTarget apologizes for label on plus-size dress
Some Target shoppers say a label that listed the color of a plus-size dress as "manatee gray" was insulting. The label for the same dress in smaller sizes described it as "dark heather gray."
Wow. I'd say that's a win for common politeness.
People have no sense of humor :(
No, that is funny
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BG5kl7UCUAA2KoH.jpg)
Looks like they're doing plus-sized gals a favor by charging them $2.99 less.
Which would be more money for them to spend on food :rolleyes:
Oh the huge manatee? :rolleyes:
I don't care who you are, that shit is funny. :sleep:
Quote from: derspiess on April 05, 2013, 01:59:48 PM
Looks like they're doing plus-sized gals a favor by charging them $2.99 less.
Which would be more money for them to spend on food :rolleyes:
More chorizo!