Languish.org

QuoteUkraine protests: it is time to go, opposition leaders tell president
Viktor Yanukovych called on to resign by opponents – including Vitali Klitschko – as protesters continue to control parts of Kiev
Shaun Walker in Kiev
theguardian.com, Monday 2 December 2013 17.56 GMT
Jump to comments (343)

A troika of opposition leaders, including the heavyweight boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, called on President Viktor Yanukovych to resign on Monday, as parts of Kiev remained under the control of throngs of anti-government protesters.

Police have deserted the centre of the city, while thousands of people blocked entrances to government buildings and gathered again on Independence Square.

It is unclear, even to those involved, whether events constitute a temporary gap in the matrix or the cusp of a genuine revolution, but there is anger among those on the streets that will be hard to quell.

Yanukovych, blindsided by the ferocity of the protests against his decision to turn away from an integration pact with the EU in favour of improved relations with Russia, has kept a low profile since the protests began and on Monday was reported to have told a TV station that he still planned to leave on a long-planned trip to China due to start on Tuesday.

In his first public address since the unrest began, the president said in the television interview that "any bad peace is better than a good war", and called on Ukrainians to abide by the country's laws.

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Protesters in independence square in Kiev on Monday call for the resignation of President Viktor Yanukovych. Photograph: Anatoly Maltsev/EPA

The Russian president, Vladimir Putin, on a visit to Armenia, blamed outside actors for the protests, which he said amounted to an attempt to unsettle Ukraine's legitimate rulers.

"This reminds me more of a pogrom than a revolution," Putin told reporters on a visit to Armenia.

After meeting with the far-right nationalist leader Oleh Tyahnybok, and Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a key ally of the jailed former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko, Klitschko said: "Yanukovych is simply not fit to rule.". The trio called for snap parliamentary and presidential elections, and hope enough of Yanukovych's own supporters join ranks with them to force a no-confidence vote in parliament on Tuesday morning.

"This president has crossed a red line," said Yatsenyuk. "This is not the demand of the opposition, this is the will of the Ukrainian people. Look at the streets."

The protests began last week, after Yanukovych said he would not sign the EU pact as planned at a summit in Vilnius last Friday, following extreme pressure from Russia and dire economic forecasts. Daily protests appeared to be petering out when riot police violently cleared Independence Square, hub of the 2004 Orange Revolution, of its last few hundred protesters early on Saturday morning. The move, combined with a subsequent court ban on further protests, backfired, as several hundred thousand people took to the streets on Sunday.

Mocking the authorities' claim that the square had been cleared in order to erect a giant plastic Christmas tree, protesters dismantled the half-made tree, using its branches to build makeshift barricades and draping flags with obscene slogans about Yanukovych on its carcass. Later in the evening they moved to take over two official buildings, with no police resistance.

The doors of the House of Trade Unions, a Soviet-era behemoth occupied by protesters, were plastered with posters featuring Yanukovych's silhouette, a sniper wound dripping crimson blood just below the shadow of his trademark quiff.

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Protesters occupy Kiev's city hall after protests on Sunday evening. Police have retreated from most of the centre of Kiev. Photograph: Efrem Lukatsky/AP

At the city hall, the odour of stale sweat wafted through the colonnaded Stalin-era function rooms from the bodies of hundreds of sleeping protesters, many of whom have travelled from across the country to protest in the capital. The ground floor windows were smashed, and "Revolution HQ" had been daubed in black paint on its stone facade.

"We've just had enough, we're sick of this," said Alexander Yabchenko, a 33-year-old oncologist from Lviv in western Ukraine, who had travelled to Kiev to take part in the protests and was now offering medical help to those injured in the clashes at a makeshift medical centre inside the city hall. "I'm not part of any political party but I understand that only by trying to be more European can we end our troubles. Even from my own experience, I see so many problems with the medical system, and we just need to modernise."

As government reaction was muted, rumours swirled among the protesters, many of whom were glued to social networks. Almost all of the rumours turned out to be false, but it did not stop them from spreading like wildfire. There was chatter about hostages taken by the Berkut riot police [ :berkut: :o ], and young students beaten to death. There were whispers of secret flights from Moscow delivering crack teams of Russian riot police to Ukraine, or the more plausible suggestion from opposition leaders that Yanukovych was bringing riot police in from his strongholds in the east and south of the country, thinking them more reliable than the capital's own forces. Tyahnybok said on Monday afternoon that 5,000 "well-trained sportsmen" had been brought to the capital.

The police have retreated from most of the centre of Kiev, but cordons of riot police still guard the presidential administration, scene of violent clashes on Sunday in which more than 100 police were injured. On Monday, the interior ministry said a total of 150 riot police and other officials had been injured, while 165 protesters had been injured, with 109 requiring hospital treatment.

A spokesman for the prime minister said on Monday that the government was not planning to impose a state of emergency, and threats that city hall would be retaken by force if protesters did not vacate it had not been fulfilled by Monday evening.

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Heavyweight boxing champion Vitali Klitschko answers questions after a press conference held by opposition leaders in Kiev. Photograph: Filip Singer/EPA

The European Commission president José Manuel Barroso said on Monday that he had spoken on the phone with Yanukovych and would receive a Ukrainian delegation in the coming days to discuss integration. Yanukovych has insisted that Ukraine's future still lies with Europe, and former trade minister Petro Poroshenko told the Guardian there was still a chance the agreement could be signed.

"The people protesting need to feel they have some kind of voice," said Poroshenko. "If that doesn't happen, then there is a chance things will develop according to a worse scenario. Any spark now could cause a full-blown explosion."At this point, it is unclear whether even a U-turn on the EU pact would be enough, with the protest acquiring a personalised vitriol against Yanukovych.

Klitschko said opposition leaders were in discussion over selecting a unified candidate to run against Yanukovych in the elections they hope to force. Recent opinion polls have put the boxer neck and neck with the current president.

"If the government does not resign, the people will force them to resign," said Klitschko with a smile, refusing to elaborate further.

Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2013, 08:15:44 AM
General user commentary on German paper "Die Zeit": protests are instigated and financed by the EU in a power grab, infringing the rights of the democratically elected government. Also: the EU is just as bad as Russian in their attempts to influence the Ukraine.

Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2013, 08:15:44 AM
General user commentary on German paper "Die Zeit": protests are instigated and financed by the EU in a power grab, infringing the rights of the democratically elected government. Also: the EU is just as bad as Russian in their attempts to influence the Ukraine.

QuoteSovereignty not surrendered to EU! That is a bit like telling someone living in the Warsaw ghetto during WWII that he was free. Technically possibly correct but in reality utter nonsense.

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2013, 08:39:17 AM

QuoteSovereignty not surrendered to EU! That is a bit like telling someone living in the Warsaw ghetto during WWII that he was free. Technically possibly correct but in reality utter nonsense.

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2013, 08:39:17 AM
:lol: :weep: :bleeding:

Quote from: KRonn on December 03, 2013, 08:54:21 AM
I'm sure the Ukrainian people have had enough of Soviet and/or Russian dominance, and don't want to chance having Russia gain more influence over them, given the directions Russian govt has been going.

Quote from: KRonn on December 03, 2013, 08:54:21 AM
I'm sure the Ukrainian people have had enough of Soviet and/or Russian dominance, and don't want to chance having Russia gain more influence over them, given the directions Russian govt has been going.

Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2013, 09:03:12 AM
German internet opinion seems to always be to not get involved anywhere, ever (unless we send aid goods ... but those might still end up in the wrong hands!), anti-military, and condemning any suggestion that Western countries, in general, are not as bad as, say, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine or China when it comes to handling protests, foreign politics etc.

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2013, 07:39:37 AM
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QuoteUnemployment Rate in Ukraine remained unchanged at 8.60 percent in the second quarter of 2013 from 8.60 percent in the first quarter of 2013.

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2013, 09:09:09 AM

Quote from: KRonn on December 03, 2013, 08:54:21 AM
I'm sure the Ukrainian people have had enough of Soviet and/or Russian dominance, and don't want to chance having Russia gain more influence over them, given the directions Russian govt has been going.

I don't know. It's not clear what the majority want. My understanding is Ukraine really is 50-50 on Russia v Europe. I think around 30% of the population speak Russian as their first language after all.

Every election seems to go like this in 2010, with the West generally backing pro-EU candidates and the East pro-Russia ones:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2010%2F02%2F08%2Fworld%2Feurope%2F08lede_ukraine_map%2F08lede_ukraine_map-blogSpan.jpg&hash=8c4bdc497ff6edda04a018c6c6718e8ef6ec813d)

Quote from: Valmy on December 03, 2013, 09:09:15 AM

I roomed with a German guy in France and he openly said he would not join the military or resist even if the US had invaded with the intent of forcing every German into slavery. 

Quote from: DGuller on December 03, 2013, 09:05:31 AM

Quote from: KRonn on December 03, 2013, 08:54:21 AM
I'm sure the Ukrainian people have had enough of Soviet and/or Russian dominance, and don't want to chance having Russia gain more influence over them, given the directions Russian govt has been going.

I'm not so sure.

Quote from: Syt on December 03, 2013, 09:46:59 AM

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2013, 09:09:09 AM

Quote from: KRonn on December 03, 2013, 08:54:21 AM
I'm sure the Ukrainian people have had enough of Soviet and/or Russian dominance, and don't want to chance having Russia gain more influence over them, given the directions Russian govt has been going.

I don't know. It's not clear what the majority want. My understanding is Ukraine really is 50-50 on Russia v Europe. I think around 30% of the population speak Russian as their first language after all.

Every election seems to go like this in 2010, with the West generally backing pro-EU candidates and the East pro-Russia ones:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2010%2F02%2F08%2Fworld%2Feurope%2F08lede_ukraine_map%2F08lede_ukraine_map-blogSpan.jpg&hash=8c4bdc497ff6edda04a018c6c6718e8ef6ec813d)

Indeed. Personally, I think the best long term solution would be to give the East to Russia and be done with it.

Quote from: Queequeg on December 03, 2013, 04:57:07 PM
It's kind of hilarious how closely that models the boundaries between the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Muscovites, Cossacks and Tatars.

Quote from: Queequeg on December 04, 2013, 01:37:04 AM
It's a sad state of affairs that this is now such a Manichean choice.

Quote from: Queequeg on December 04, 2013, 01:37:04 AM
It's a sad state of affairs that this is now such a Manichean choice.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 04, 2013, 02:10:07 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on December 04, 2013, 01:37:04 AM
It's a sad state of affairs that this is now such a Manichean choice.

Would you say he was a: Manichean Candidate?

Quote from: Razgovory on December 04, 2013, 01:46:49 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on December 04, 2013, 01:37:04 AM
It's a sad state of affairs that this is now such a Manichean choice.

Yeah, what with Hitler and demons as part of the EU now.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 04, 2013, 12:42:52 AM
Pro Russian - Anti EU Propaganda


NSFW
http://i.imgur.com/LDDGQeK.jpg

QuoteRussian TV Goes Crazy Over Ukraine Protests
What's "the only difference" between the EU summit in Vilnius last week and the Munich accords of 1938 which appeased Nazi Germany? "Today's goal is to deprive Russia of its allies, and tear Ukraine away."
posted on December 5, 2013 at 3:17pm EST
Max Seddon

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KIEV, Ukraine — Nobody can have been more taken aback by the huge anti-government protests that sprung up here over the weekend than Russians who get their news from state television. As President Viktor Yanukovych mulled signing a deal with the European Union in November, Russian channels insisted that the agreement was of no use to Ukraine, which was "just a means" for the West to strike at the Kremlin, the only party that could help Kiev avoid a crippling foreign debt crisis. When Yanukovych abruptly backed out of the deal before a summit in Vilnius last week under heavy Russian pressure, presenters could barely conceal their glee at seeing Ukraine return to Moscow's sphere of influence.

"The best thing that could happen to you in historical perspective," radio host Sergei Dorenko said, "is for a German to stand over every Ukrainian with a lash and start yelling 'Arbeiten, schnelle schnelle.' I think that's your destiny, my dear brothers - to be a rotten backwater."

When hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians decided otherwise last Sunday and took to the streets to protest a violent police breakup of a tent city, pro-Putin news anchors scrambled for answers. The Rossiya channel claimed the protesters were funded and trained by the U.S. State Department, then showed an edited clip from Ukrainian TV to suggest a man admitting he had been paid to attend a pro-Yanukovych meeting had actually gone to a pro-EU protest. NTV, famous for pseudo-documentary hit pieces on the opposition, said the march was full of "professional revolutionaries, for whom organizing riots is a job."

Meteorologist Vadim Zavodchenkov took the scientific approach on Rossiya 24. "Disturbances are continuing in Kiev. They started on exactly the same day the Orange Revolution did nine years ago," he began. "Yet again, the dramatic worsening of the political climate has coincided with a transitional period between seasons."

According to Zavodchenkov, scientists in Russia and at Columbia University have found that bad weather "provokes people to start conflicts." He then went through a forecast. Temperatures and Kiev had fluctuated above and below freezing all weekend. Atmospheric pressure was getting worse. A warm wind from the Baltic would be supplanted later in the week by cold weather from the north, he said: "the blizzards and frosts that hit Moscow and Central Russia will reach the Dniepr too." After all, he said, Ukrainians should remember that standing outside in cold temperatures for long periods is a heath hazard.

The most esoteric interpretation, however, came from Rossiya's Dmitry Kiselev, a weekend anchor famous for his tirades against gays, for his love of comparing the Kremlin's enemies to the Nazis, and for his manic jazz hands. Kiselev started off by likening the Vilnius summit to the Munich agreement of 1938, where Allied powers allowed Nazi Germany to annex the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. "The only difference," he said, "is that today's goal is to deprive Russia of its allies, and tear Ukraine away."

Then he listed the countries at the heart of EU attempts to bring Ukraine into the fold. "Sweden, Poland, Lithuania – does that sound familiar?" he asked. "It's the same alliance Peter the Great defeated at Poltava in 1709. Amusing as it sounds, it now looks like they want revenge for Poltava," a city in central Ukraine. Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt, Kiselev said, "was a CIA agent in his youth" and out to avenge his aristocratic ancestors in command of the army.


But Sweden's nefarious plot to snatch Ukraine from Russia doesn't end at EU free trade agreements and liberalizing the general prosecutor's office, Kiselev said. He then began discussing Biss och Kajs, or "Wee-Wee and Poo-Poo," a children's TV show that teaches young Swedes about their bodily functions with actors dressed as the title characters, a musical ensemble known as the "Butt Orchestra," and "singing genitalia." Rather than find it bizarre on its own terms, Kiselev compared it to short-lived experimental childhood sex education in the Soviet Union's "enlightement" years from 1921 to 1925, which encouraged children to be open about their sexual needs.

"Europe's late. Very late indeed," Kiselev said. "The sex education standards there are almost copied from our child laboratories in the 1920s. So if we return to Sweden," he added, "it's no surprise that child abortions are surging, child sex is normal, they start at nine, but it all goes wrong when they hit 12: childhood impotency. A new challenge, progressive Swedes say. There you have it — European values in all their glory."

Quote from: The Brain on December 05, 2013, 03:58:01 PM
Biss and Kajs doesn't mean Wee-Wee and Poo-Poo. Kiss and Bajs would mean that, but letters have been changed to protect the guilty. And I don't think I have to explain the appeal of a show about bodily functions on Languish.

Quote from: derspiess on December 05, 2013, 04:07:35 PM
I'm still stumped as to why there is a need for a show to teach kids about pooping and peeing.  Kids seem to know that pretty damned well.

Also how would you like to have to put on your resume that you dressed up like a turd for a kids show.  Or I guess a stream of piss for that matter :lol:

Quote from: derspiess on December 05, 2013, 04:07:35 PM
Also how would you like to have to put on your resume that you dressed up like a turd for a kids show.  Or I guess a stream of piss for that matter :lol:

Quote from: The Brain on December 05, 2013, 04:09:10 PM
Many kids don't know the stool chart by heart. Do you?

Quote from: Agelastus on December 05, 2013, 05:05:54 PM

Quote from: The Brain on December 05, 2013, 04:09:10 PM
Many kids don't know the stool chart by heart. Do you?

I didn't a few minutes ago.

Now I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the knowledge that kids are apparently shown a chart like that as part of their early education.

I also smell a possible poll for a slow day on Languish.

Quote from: derspiess on December 05, 2013, 05:56:18 PM
I think I discovered Type 8 while doing my colonoscopy prep earlier this year.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 09, 2013, 01:11:39 AM
Talk about Slavic pessimissim, the Ukranian anthem is literally titled "Ukraine has not yet perished"!  :lol:

Quote from: Queequeg on December 09, 2013, 01:45:36 AM
Yeah, well, Poland is it's own thing, but the idea that Kiev is alien to Russia is kind of bullshit.

Quote from: Queequeg on December 09, 2013, 02:10:40 AM
Not really. The Romanovs fucked up bringing the lost Rus' back in to the fold, and some clever Austrians managed to find reasons to separate some from the full embrace of Holy Russia in the 19th Century.

Quote from: Liep on December 08, 2013, 02:30:20 PM
They behead Lenin in Kiev.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/ukraine-opposition-viktor-yanukovych-european-integration

Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2013, 09:24:52 AM

Quote from: Liep on December 08, 2013, 02:30:20 PM
They behead Lenin in Kiev.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/ukraine-opposition-viktor-yanukovych-european-integration

That's cool & all, but why was there still a Lenin statue there??

Quote from: DGuller on December 09, 2013, 09:27:18 AM

Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2013, 09:24:52 AM

Quote from: Liep on December 08, 2013, 02:30:20 PM
They behead Lenin in Kiev.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/ukraine-opposition-viktor-yanukovych-european-integration

That's cool & all, but why was there still a Lenin statue there??

It was a pretty statue.

Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2013, 09:36:55 AM
Does not compute.

Quote from: Valmy on December 09, 2013, 09:48:49 AM

Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2013, 09:36:55 AM
Does not compute.

The statue had a naked woman sitting in Lenin's lap.

Quote from: Liep on December 09, 2013, 09:44:09 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fliep.dk%2Flenin.jpeg&hash=d34d803a4cabba7e2d84b31b95b789707b6a5ab1)

Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2013, 09:58:38 AM
What's the bottom line say?  I can figure out the first two words from it but not the last two.

QuoteKremlin Appoints Gay-Bashing Anchor to Lead Its Media Empire

The government of Russian President Vladimir Putin has disbanded long-running state news agency RIA Novosti and reorganized it under a new, even more propagandistic operation—a sign, critics fear, of Putin's deepening authoritarianism.

By Simon Shuster @shustryDec. 09, 20132 Comments
Putin
Mikhail Metzel / Ria Novosti / Kreml / EPA
President Putin at Moscow State University on Dec. 3, 2013.

The Kremlin has chosen its messenger. Dmitri Kiselyov, the Russian news anchor known for his on-air tirades against Americans and homosexuals, was appointed on Monday to lead a new state-run media conglomerate, Rossiya Segodnya (Russia Today). Even among the cynical ranks of Russia's journalists, the news came as a shock. But it was not so much the fear of censorship that bothered them – the airwaves in Russia are already tightly controlled by the state. It was rather the standard-bearer President Vladimir Putin chose, one whose venom toward the West and its values would make all but the fiercest Cold Warriors recoil.

In April of last year, Kiselyov stated on national television that homosexuals killed in automobile accidents should have their "hearts buried in the ground or burned" to prevent their transplantation into another human body. Though rights groups pointed out that this remark constituted hate speech under Russian law, Kiselyov was not reprimanded. In fact he was promoted a few months later to become the anchor of Russia's premier news program, Vesti Nedeli, a platform he has used to deliver weekly diatribes against Russia's enemies, both real and imagined.

In June, he accused the U.S. of forming an alliance with al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups in order to "spread chaos" and achieve "world domination," while European societies, he said, are succumbing to a "cult of homosexuality" and a "betrayal of Christianity." The only one who can beat back these threats to civilization, he argued, is President Vladimir Putin, whom Kiselyov holds up as a national savior. "From among his peers in the 20th century, Putin the politician is comparable in the scope of his efforts only with Stalin," the anchor said last year. He meant this as a compliment.

In his new role, Kiselyov will answer directly to Putin in guiding Russian propaganda at home and abroad. His mission, he said, would not involve the objective presentation of the news – a practice he recently condemned as being "absolutely unwanted" – but rather the "revival of a fair attitude toward Russia as an important country with good intentions."

That was roughly the same goal assigned to the Kremlin's foreign-language news channel, RT, when it was launched in 2005. Since then, the channel has become an international vehicle for admiring coverage of the Kremlin that also airs some of Russia's favorite conspiracy theories, such as the recent RT report arguing a link between American security services and the bombing of the Boston Marathon. But RT's coverage, which the Russian government has spent billions of dollars beaming into the homes of more than 600 million people in 100 countries, apparently did not go far enough. Its editor in chief, Margarita Simonyan, said she was stunned on Monday to hear the news of the Kremlin's latest media venture.

Even RIA Novosti, the state-run news agency being liquidated to make room for the new conglomerate, could not hold its tongue in reporting the news on Monday morning. "The move is the latest in a series of shifts in Russia's news landscape, which appear to point toward a tightening of state control in the already heavily regulated media sector," the agency wrote.

Fighting back tears on Monday during a meeting with her employees, the longest-serving editor in the history of RIA Novosti, Svetlana Mironyuk, paid homage to her predecessors – "some of whom were executed, some of whom imprisoned" – during the frequent purges of journalists in the Soviet Union. "I'm sorry to all of those whom I could not protect," she said, according to a video of the meeting leaked online. "It's truly painful for me that this history has to end with me."

And even though she was no stranger to propaganda and no friend to freedom of the press, Mironyuk's ouster horrified the dwindling ranks of Russia's independent journalists. On Monday, they rushed to defend her for at least avoiding dogmatism if not for fighting censorship. Under Kiselyov, they realized, things are about to get worse.



Read more: Putin Disbands RIA Novosti, Appoints Gay-Basher to Top Media Post | TIME.com http://world.time.com/2013/12/09/kremlin-appoints-gay-bashing-anchor-to-lead-its-media-empire/#ixzz2n27n2IOc

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 03, 2013, 09:09:09 AM

Quote from: KRonn on December 03, 2013, 08:54:21 AM
I'm sure the Ukrainian people have had enough of Soviet and/or Russian dominance, and don't want to chance having Russia gain more influence over them, given the directions Russian govt has been going.

I don't know. It's not clear what the majority want. My understanding is Ukraine really is 50-50 on Russia v Europe. I think around 30% of the population speak Russian as their first language after all.

Every election seems to go like this in 2010, with the West generally backing pro-EU candidates and the East pro-Russia ones:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2010%2F02%2F08%2Fworld%2Feurope%2F08lede_ukraine_map%2F08lede_ukraine_map-blogSpan.jpg&hash=8c4bdc497ff6edda04a018c6c6718e8ef6ec813d)

Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2013, 09:57:01 AM

Quote from: Valmy on December 09, 2013, 09:48:49 AM

Quote from: derspiess on December 09, 2013, 09:36:55 AM
Does not compute.

The statue had a naked woman sitting in Lenin's lap.

She'd have to be pretty hott to offset Lenin.

QuoteUkraine crisis: Western diplomats bid to end stand-off

Top Western diplomats are arriving in Kiev as police move to break the blockade of Ukrainian government buildings by pro-EU protesters.

US Deputy Secretary of State Victoria Nuland met leading opposition politicians and was due to have talks with President Viktor Yanukovych.

EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton is also due in the city.

Mr Yanukovych has reportedly indicated he may be willing to help free people arrested during the protests.

One of his predecessors as president of Ukraine, Leonid Kravchuk, made the remark after talks with Mr Yanukovych and two other former presidents, Leonid Kuchma and Viktor Yushchenko.

Scores of people were injured and at least 31 arrests were made in clashes between police and protesters at the end of last month..

Several people were also hurt overnight as riot police advanced, before a deadline for protesters to lift their blockade.

But no action was taken against the main opposition camp on Independence Square, where about 2,000 protesters remained on Tuesday morning, huddling around braziers to keep warm, Reuters news agency reports.

On Sunday, at least 100,000 protesters turned out, demanding the resignation of the government within 48 hours.

The political crisis began when Ukraine decided not to sign a landmark EU free-trade deal last month, while under pressure to strengthen economic ties with Russia.

The European Commission says the EU's offer of an association agreement with Ukraine remains on the table, provided Ukraine meets the conditions, which cannot be renegotiated.
'Serious risk'

A police raid on Monday on the headquarters of Ukraine's biggest opposition party, Fatherland, led Baroness Ashton to express concern and urge restraint on the eve of her visit.

Computer servers were removed during the raid on the party led by former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who has been in prison since 2011 over a controversial gas contract with Russia.

"I follow with concern the reports that police forces forcibly entered the office of the biggest opposition party," Baroness Ashton said in a statement.

She said the timing, just ahead of the talks proposed by Mr Yanukovych, "seriously risk to derail the process".

Photos were released on Tuesday of Ms Nuland meeting Vitaly Klitschko, the heavyweight boxing champion who leads the Udar (Punch) party, as well as Arseniy Yatsenyuk, of Tymoshenko's Fatherland party, and Oleh Tyahnybok, of the far-right Svoboda party.

In Moscow earlier, the US diplomat expressed "deep concern" about events in Ukraine, stressing Washington's support for Ukrainians' "European choice".

She "urged Russia to use its influence to press for peace, human dignity and a political solution", the US embassy in Moscow said in a statement.
Scuffles

After talks with Mr Yanukovych, Mr Kravchuk said the current president would decide whether arrested demonstrators should be freed "while not intervening in the work of the courts".

The street protests, the biggest since 2004, have invited parallels with that time. On each of the last three Sundays, crowds estimated at 100,000 or more have flooded central Kiev.

On Monday, phalanxes of riot police, their helmets caked in snow, moved to clear Kiev's government district of protesters, tearing down barricades leading to the presidency, cabinet offices and parliament.

Scuffles broke out and, while there were no immediate official reports of injuries, members of Svoboda said several people had been hurt. Two police officers were also reportedly injured.

The unrest in Kiev and other parts of Ukraine escalated after police used violence against protesters on 30 November.

The crisis has highlighted divisions in Ukraine, with many in the east of the country more sympathetic to Russia, and opposing both closer links with the EU and the anti-government protests.

Quote from: Valmy on December 09, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
Don't the Russians ever get tired of Putin?  I mean after three or so years I find it difficult to tolerate the President anymore.

QuoteBerkut: Ukraine's protest-suppression unit

The interior ministry's special "Berkut" unit was originally created to fight organized crime, but now is mostly being used to oppress social and political protests. It's especially known for its brutality.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dw.de%2Fimage%2F0%2C%2C17267569_303%2C00.jpg&hash=260e6eef3eff9c5194f83a538903ee577baf98dd)

Opponents of the Ukrainian government were repeatedly injured in clashes that have taken place between demonstrators and security forces in recent weeks. The special unit "Berkut," which means golden eagle in Ukrainian, has often been involved in such missions. Ukrainian opposition parties are demanding dissolution of the unit.

Vitali Klitschko of the opposition party Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reforms is convinced that the unit has discredited itself. Its excessive use of force to disperse street protests has been causing an outrage in the Ukrainian society for some time now.

One of many special units

Berkut, Alpha, Omega, Falcon, Titan - these are all names for the different special units of the Ukrainian security service and the militia. Border patrol and customs agencies, as well as the military, have their own special units. But over past years Berkut has most shocked the public with its unnecessary brutality and aggression against demonstrators.

This applies in particular to the bloody suppression of the peaceful student protests at Maidan Square in Kyiv, on November 30. The students protested against the government's decision to shelve the negotiated agreement with the European Union due to pressure from Russia. It was also Berkut police who beat up demonstrators and journalists during riots in front of the president's office.

Demanding regulation

Experts point out that special units partially operate in a legal vacuum. Although states may need special units like Berkut, their strength, tasks and the enforcement strategies need to be regulated by law, said Mykola Chavronyuk from the Center for Political and Legal Reforms in Ukraine. Many think this Berkut needs more oversight. "The legislator has to clearly define its competence and duties, and especially what the unit is not allowed to do," he said.

Berkut was created in 1992 as a rapid response force to more effectively fight organized crime. To this day, only interior ministry decrees regulate the operations of the special unit. Therefore, only the government - which controls the interior ministry - ultimately decides when to deploy the unit. The parliament is left out of the loop.

Wealth of applicants

At its start, the unit was staffed by former special military personnel and experienced militiamen. Today, the requirement for members of the 4,000-strong unit is still to be physically fit. According to the interior ministry, there are four applicants for each vacancy. Not only hardened fighters are chosen, but also climbers, divers and snipers.

The average monthly salary is up to 500 euros ($688), depending on length of service and rank. An ordinary Ukrainian militiaman earns around 300 euros a month.

Demonstrators targeted

In contrast to militiamen, members of Berkut should be able to carry out arrests against armed criminals and members of the organized crime, and also free hostages. Berkut members are also trained for these tasks.

The fight against organized crime has become a mere secondary task of Berkut. According to the interior ministry, the special unit's main task of is "to secure the public order during state but also social, political and religious mass events, as well as during sports and cultural happenings."

In this context, Chavronyuk points out that interior ministry rules are not responding to important questions, such as: "What is a disturbance of the public order? What is the difference between ending a demonstration and the dissolution of mass unrest? At what number of participants it is a mass event?," he asks.

Suppression of political and social protests

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dw.de%2Fimage%2F0%2C%2C17263570_403%2C00.jpg&hash=8318970da58a961bad723db8da88c5e9d17eac2e)

Ukrainian human rights activist Oleg Martynenko is alarmed that even during peaceful protests, there as many Berkut members as there are demonstrators. "The government is the one deciding which meeting will be dissolved. Then the commander of the special units sends his troops to the place of action," he said.

Additionally, psychological training to target criminals reflects in the unit's approach. Berkut members see demonstrators as a threat, which they could be willing to eliminate by any means. The men are allowed not to carry out illegal commands, yet it's likely that most of their commanders' orders seem to be suitable.

"They simply just can't judge which orders are lawful," Martynenko explained. They also don't know enough about citizens' and demonstrators' rights - which human rights advocates fear has allowed the special units to increasingly became tools for the oppression of political and social protests.

Quote from: derspiess on December 11, 2013, 09:15:54 AM
Question about the Russian-speaking Ukrainians:  do they consider themselves real, patriotic Ukrainians, or would they sell out Ukraine the first chance they get in order to live under the Russian flag?

Quote from: Solmyr on December 11, 2013, 12:30:57 PM
How do Crimean Tatars figure into all this?

Quote from: derspiess on December 11, 2013, 09:15:54 AM
Question about the Russian-speaking Ukrainians:  do they consider themselves real, patriotic Ukrainians, or would they sell out Ukraine the first chance they get in order to live under the Russian flag?

Quote from: Tamas on January 22, 2014, 07:56:51 AM
This is how you riot properly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APGnKRx67kI

Quote from: derspiess on January 22, 2014, 12:06:52 PM
Or beet downs?

Quote from: Tamas on January 22, 2014, 12:52:19 PM
Allegedly, tanks are being railroaded to Kiev:

Quote from: derspiess on January 22, 2014, 01:02:15 PM
I saw a pic of the police lighting a couple molotovs, apparently to throw at the protesters?  Is that an Eastern Europe riot control measure??

Quote from: Tamas on January 22, 2014, 12:52:19 PM
Allegedly, tanks are being railroaded to Kiev:
https://twitter.com/detinets_tv/status/426023797863362560/photo/1

The prez postponed any decision until tomorrow, so probably there will be a big crackdown tonight.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 22, 2014, 01:08:13 PM

Quote from: Tamas on January 22, 2014, 12:52:19 PM
Allegedly, tanks are being railroaded to Kiev:
https://twitter.com/detinets_tv/status/426023797863362560/photo/1

The prez postponed any decision until tomorrow, so probably there will be a big crackdown tonight.

Then tonight I will finally learn who wins when a tank goes up against a trebuchet.

Quote from: DGuller on January 22, 2014, 01:04:40 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 22, 2014, 01:02:15 PM
I saw a pic of the police lighting a couple molotovs, apparently to throw at the protesters?  Is that an Eastern Europe riot control measure??

It is, though the standard practice is to put on a tracksuit and mingle with the demonstrators first.

Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
EU's Barroso threatens sanctions against Ukraine if state violence increases. Russia criticizes EU and says instead of sanctions the Ukraine needs help.

If the situation in Ukraine escalates and the government calls for help from the big brother in the East which will be provided in the form of soldiers and tanks, then I predict the EU will be shocked, indignated, but nothing else will happen.

Quote from: DGuller on January 22, 2014, 01:27:06 PM
Is there still time left for an Olympic boycott? :shifty:

QuoteThe laws also prescribe jail terms for anyone blockading public buildings and outlaw unauthorised tents in public areas.

European Union leaders have expressed shock at the deaths and called for on all sides to halt the violence.

"If there is a systematic violation of human rights, including shooting at peaceful demonstrators or serious attacks to the basic freedoms, then we have to rethink our relationship with Ukraine," said Jose Manuel Barroso, the president of the EU Commission.

The US also strongly condemned the escalating situation.

"Increased tensions in Ukraine are a direct consequence of the Ukrainian government's failure to engage in real dialogue and the passage of anti-democratic legislation," a US state department spokeswoman said.

Russia has accused the EU and US of "outside interference" in Ukrainian affairs. [Something Russia never does, of course - Syt]

"The extremist part of the opposition is crudely violating the country's constitution," Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin told Interfax news agency.

Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
If the situation in Ukraine escalates and the government calls for help from the big brother in the East which will be provided in the form of soldiers and tanks, then I predict the EU will be shocked, indignated, but nothing else will happen.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 22, 2014, 02:03:29 PM
How many regimes can Russia the CIA afford to prop up destabilize at once?

Quote from: DGuller on January 22, 2014, 01:41:23 PM

Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
If the situation in Ukraine escalates and the government calls for help from the big brother in the East which will be provided in the form of soldiers and tanks, then I predict the EU will be shocked, indignated, but nothing else will happen.

I don't think Europe has much to fear from a resurgent once-defeated great power, especially one that is pre-occupied with hosting the Olympics.

Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
EU's Barroso threatens sanctions against Ukraine if state violence increases. Russia criticizes EU and says instead of sanctions the Ukraine needs help.

If the situation in Ukraine escalates and the government calls for help from the big brother in the East which will be provided in the form of soldiers and tanks, then I predict the EU will be shocked, indignated, but nothing else will happen.

Quote from: Barrister on January 22, 2014, 02:20:45 PM

Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
EU's Barroso threatens sanctions against Ukraine if state violence increases. Russia criticizes EU and says instead of sanctions the Ukraine needs help.

If the situation in Ukraine escalates and the government calls for help from the big brother in the East which will be provided in the form of soldiers and tanks, then I predict the EU will be shocked, indignated, but nothing else will happen.

I can't see Yanukovych calling for the Russian Army for help.  His entire presidency has been about trying to dance inbetween both the EU and Russia.  Calling for the Russians would mean a total loss of independence for him.

Quote from: Tamas on January 22, 2014, 05:47:33 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 22, 2014, 02:20:45 PM

Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
EU's Barroso threatens sanctions against Ukraine if state violence increases. Russia criticizes EU and says instead of sanctions the Ukraine needs help.

If the situation in Ukraine escalates and the government calls for help from the big brother in the East which will be provided in the form of soldiers and tanks, then I predict the EU will be shocked, indignated, but nothing else will happen.

I can't see Yanukovych calling for the Russian Army for help.  His entire presidency has been about trying to dance inbetween both the EU and Russia.  Calling for the Russians would mean a total loss of independence for him.

Err, the whole thing started because at the past moment he refused to sign a treaty with the EU and instead switched to Putin's warm embrace. His (and Putin's) chips are quite clearly on the table

Quote from: Barrister on January 22, 2014, 05:50:27 PM
Yanukovych will take Russian money, if offered, but not Russian troops.  After all - look how well that worked out for Hungary in '56 or Czechoslovakia in '68.

Quote from: derspiess on January 22, 2014, 05:54:15 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 22, 2014, 05:50:27 PM
Yanukovych will take Russian money, if offered, but not Russian troops.  After all - look how well that worked out for Hungary in '56 or Czechoslovakia in '68.

Worked out well for the pro-Russian hardliners in both cases, actually.

Quote from: Barrister on January 22, 2014, 02:20:45 PM

Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
EU's Barroso threatens sanctions against Ukraine if state violence increases. Russia criticizes EU and says instead of sanctions the Ukraine needs help.

If the situation in Ukraine escalates and the government calls for help from the big brother in the East which will be provided in the form of soldiers and tanks, then I predict the EU will be shocked, indignated, but nothing else will happen.

I can't see Yanukovych calling for the Russian Army for help.  His entire presidency has been about trying to dance inbetween both the EU and Russia.  Calling for the Russians would mean a total loss of independence for him.

Quote from: Razgovory on January 22, 2014, 07:03:43 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 22, 2014, 02:20:45 PM

Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
EU's Barroso threatens sanctions against Ukraine if state violence increases. Russia criticizes EU and says instead of sanctions the Ukraine needs help.

If the situation in Ukraine escalates and the government calls for help from the big brother in the East which will be provided in the form of soldiers and tanks, then I predict the EU will be shocked, indignated, but nothing else will happen.

I can't see Yanukovych calling for the Russian Army for help.  His entire presidency has been about trying to dance inbetween both the EU and Russia.  Calling for the Russians would mean a total loss of independence for him.

He may not have a choice.  If things get really bad, the Russians might come in anyway.

Quote from: derspiess on January 24, 2014, 10:31:19 AM
A split seems like the only sensible solution.  Why would Russia be against it?  It could absorb the Eastern part back into Mother Russia.  Seems like the Western Ukes will never accept being a Russian client state, so getting the Eastern part is about as well as Russia could do.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 24, 2014, 10:33:24 AM
Why would they accept an EU client state there if they could just keep an unstable semi-dependent mess?

Quote from: Barrister on January 23, 2014, 10:12:50 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 22, 2014, 07:03:43 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 22, 2014, 02:20:45 PM

Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
EU's Barroso threatens sanctions against Ukraine if state violence increases. Russia criticizes EU and says instead of sanctions the Ukraine needs help.

If the situation in Ukraine escalates and the government calls for help from the big brother in the East which will be provided in the form of soldiers and tanks, then I predict the EU will be shocked, indignated, but nothing else will happen.

I can't see Yanukovych calling for the Russian Army for help.  His entire presidency has been about trying to dance inbetween both the EU and Russia.  Calling for the Russians would mean a total loss of independence for him.

He may not have a choice.  If things get really bad, the Russians might come in anyway.

That's usually called an invasion though.

Putin got away with it in Georgia to be sure, but not as sure things would go the same way in Ukraine.

Quote from: Tyr on January 26, 2014, 10:05:36 AM
I don't really see the Russians moving into the Ukraine.
Even in Georgia they had to wait for the Georgians to make the first move and attack one of their break away regions. And Georgia...is a far more insignificant and out of the way state.

Quote from: DGuller on January 26, 2014, 10:02:14 AM
One random clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY#t=480 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY#t=480).  You have to respect the restraint from both sides, though I have a feeling that this is going to change.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 26, 2014, 06:15:00 PM
I very, very seriously doubt Russian troops will cross in to the Ukraine unless there's some kind of secession or violence against "ethnic Russians", which is a fucking retarded distinction in this case.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 26, 2014, 06:15:00 PM
I very, very seriously doubt Russian troops will cross in to the Ukraine unless there's some kind of secession or violence against "ethnic Russians", which is a fucking retarded distinction in this case.

Quote from: DGuller on January 26, 2014, 10:02:14 AM
One random clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY#t=480.  You have to respect the restraint from both sides, though I have a feeling that this is going to change.

Quote from: Tonitrus on January 26, 2014, 08:59:15 PM

Quote from: DGuller on January 26, 2014, 10:02:14 AM
One random clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_B637FCDY#t=480.  You have to respect the restraint from both sides, though I have a feeling that this is going to change.

While not a proponent of the government...I didn't see any restraint from the mob side against the police in that clip.  Quite the opposite.

Quote from: Tonitrus on January 26, 2014, 09:12:35 PM
Not trying to hurt them?  I saw lots of boards being slammed onto heads (and sometimes even after they ripped their helmets off), and then the guy swinging the metal end of a firehose at their heads.

Quote from: Tonitrus on January 26, 2014, 09:12:35 PM
Not trying to hurt them?  I saw lots of boards being slammed onto heads (and sometimes even after they ripped their helmets off), and then the guy swinging the metal end of a firehose at their heads.

Quote from: Barrister on January 26, 2014, 07:13:51 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 26, 2014, 06:15:00 PM
I very, very seriously doubt Russian troops will cross in to the Ukraine unless there's some kind of secession or violence against "ethnic Russians", which is a fucking retarded distinction in this case.

:blurgh:

Quote from: Tamas on January 27, 2014, 09:38:21 AM

Quote from: Tonitrus on January 26, 2014, 09:12:35 PM
Not trying to hurt them?  I saw lots of boards being slammed onto heads (and sometimes even after they ripped their helmets off), and then the guy swinging the metal end of a firehose at their heads.

This is about whether Ukraine will become a second Belorussia, an autocraticly governed Russian satellite. It is no joking matter and whoever stands with force to support the Belorusification (ie. the police) is a valid target.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 11:40:07 AM

Quote from: Barrister on January 26, 2014, 07:13:51 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 26, 2014, 06:15:00 PM
I very, very seriously doubt Russian troops will cross in to the Ukraine unless there's some kind of secession or violence against "ethnic Russians", which is a fucking retarded distinction in this case.

:blurgh:

Kiev isn't foreign to Russia. That's an absurdity.

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 12:37:16 PM
There is a bit of a difference between Kievan Rus and modern Russian state originating from Muscovy.

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 27, 2014, 11:47:10 AM

Quote from: Tamas on January 27, 2014, 09:38:21 AM

Quote from: Tonitrus on January 26, 2014, 09:12:35 PM
Not trying to hurt them?  I saw lots of boards being slammed onto heads (and sometimes even after they ripped their helmets off), and then the guy swinging the metal end of a firehose at their heads.

This is about whether Ukraine will become a second Belorussia, an autocraticly governed Russian satellite. It is no joking matter and whoever stands with force to support the Belorusification (ie. the police) is a valid target.

We now see better the contours of Tamas' "classical liberalism." :lol:  Not that I disagree with the point in question.

See also the headscarf debate.

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 27, 2014, 01:28:34 PM
Given the number of linguistic and historical ties between the three cultures, 'East Slavic' can kind of work as a supra-ethnicity in the same way that 'Scandinavian,' 'Arab,' and 'Chinese' do. The Russians use the term Rossiysky, which I think means roughly 'natively Russian-speaking and white.' But just like in those other cases, there are still real cultural differences within the broader group, and of course nationalist intellectuals in Ukraine have been doing a lot of identity construction over the last 20 years.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 02:20:35 PM
It's the difference between Swiss German and German.

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 02:36:48 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 02:20:35 PM
It's the difference between Swiss German and German.

I don't know the difference between Swiss German and German, as I speak neither, but I do know the difference between Russian and Ukrainian.  Those languages are not that close to each other;  I can understand Russian perfectly, but I can understand Ukrainian about as well as I can understand Polish.  Which is to say very poorly.

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 02:44:59 PM

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 02:36:48 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 02:20:35 PM
It's the difference between Swiss German and German.

I don't know the difference between Swiss German and German, as I speak neither, but I do know the difference between Russian and Ukrainian.  Those languages are not that close to each other;  I can understand Russian perfectly, but I can understand Ukrainian about as well as I can understand Polish.  Which is to say very poorly.

But you don't live close to Ukraine or Poland.  If you did, I'd imagine you'd be able to understand it better.  FWIW, for an outsider like me Ukrainian and Russian seem to have a lot of similarities.

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 02:44:59 PM

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 02:36:48 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 02:20:35 PM
It's the difference between Swiss German and German.

I don't know the difference between Swiss German and German, as I speak neither, but I do know the difference between Russian and Ukrainian.  Those languages are not that close to each other;  I can understand Russian perfectly, but I can understand Ukrainian about as well as I can understand Polish.  Which is to say very poorly.

But you don't live close to Ukraine or Poland.  If you did, I'd imagine you'd be able to understand it better.  FWIW, for an outsider like me Ukrainian and Russian seem to have a lot of similarities.

Quote from: Razgovory on January 27, 2014, 02:48:25 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 02:44:59 PM

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 02:36:48 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 02:20:35 PM
It's the difference between Swiss German and German.

I don't know the difference between Swiss German and German, as I speak neither, but I do know the difference between Russian and Ukrainian.  Those languages are not that close to each other;  I can understand Russian perfectly, but I can understand Ukrainian about as well as I can understand Polish.  Which is to say very poorly.

But you don't live close to Ukraine or Poland.  If you did, I'd imagine you'd be able to understand it better.  FWIW, for an outsider like me Ukrainian and Russian seem to have a lot of similarities.

Dguller was lived in Ukraine in a city close to Polish border.

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 02:51:07 PM
I don't get why people who don't speak either language are in any position to comment on their similarities or differences.

People I've spoken to who *do* speak these languages tell me they aren't all that similar, a point confirmed by DG here.

QuoteAlexander M. Schenker. 1993. "Proto-Slavonic," The Slavonic Languages. (Routledge). Pp. 60-121. Pg. 60: "[The] distinction between dialect and language being blurred, there can be no unanimity on this issue in all instances..."
C.F. Voegelin and F.M. Voegelin. 1977. Classification and Index of the World's Languages (Elsevier). Pg. 311, "In terms of immediate mutual intelligibility, the East Slavic zone is a single language."
Bernard Comrie. 1981. The Languages of the Soviet Union (Cambridge). Pg. 145-146: "The three East Slavonic languages are very close to one another, with very high rates of mutual intelligibility...The separation of Russian, Ukrainian, and Belorussian as distinct languages is relatively recent...Many Ukrainians in fact speak a mixture of Ukrainian and Russian, finding it difficult to keep the two languages apart...

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 03:04:56 PM

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 02:51:07 PM
I don't get why people who don't speak either language are in any position to comment on their similarities or differences.

People I've spoken to who *do* speak these languages tell me they aren't all that similar, a point confirmed by DG here.

There do seem to be other opinions.  Such as...

QuoteAlexander M. Schenker. 1993. "Proto-Slavonic," The Slavonic Languages. (Routledge). Pp. 60-121. Pg. 60: "[The] distinction between dialect and language being blurred, there can be no unanimity on this issue in all instances..."
C.F. Voegelin and F.M. Voegelin. 1977. Classification and Index of the World's Languages (Elsevier). Pg. 311, "In terms of immediate mutual intelligibility, the East Slavic zone is a single language."
Bernard Comrie. 1981. The Languages of the Soviet Union (Cambridge). Pg. 145-146: "The three East Slavonic languages are very close to one another, with very high rates of mutual intelligibility...The separation of Russian, Ukrainian, and Belorussian as distinct languages is relatively recent...Many Ukrainians in fact speak a mixture of Ukrainian and Russian, finding it difficult to keep the two languages apart...

QuoteIn the 19th century the question of whether Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages are the dialects of a single language or three separate languages was actively discussed and wasn't entirely decided by linguistic factors alone.[8] The political situation (Ukraine and Belarus being mainly a part of Russian Empire that time) and the fact from the history of existence of Kyivan Rus, the medieval state, also occupying the large parts of these tree nations, the common classification known later as East Slavic languages was created. The underlying theory of the East Slavic group of languages to be descended from a common ancestor was produces. Nowadays Ukrainian, Russian, and Belarusian are usually listed by linguists as separate languages.

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 03:20:00 PM
The problem is that, whoever wrote these points, they are apparently not true according to people who actually speak the languages.

QuoteIf you are citing sources from Wikipedia, might as well look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language#Classification_and_relationship_to_other_languages

Ukranian is far closer to Polish than to Russian.

Vocabulary in common - Russian, 62%; Polish, 70%
Phonetic and Grammatic features in common, out of 82: Russian, 11; Polish, 22.

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 27, 2014, 03:43:00 PM
Ukrainian and Russian have been constructed as separate languages, but they're also on a linguistic continuum. It seems possible that  those people in central and eastern Ukraine who speak "a mix of Russian and Ukrainian" are actually speaking the same language that their ancestors spoke for centuries -- a dialect somewhere in the transitional zone between the two.


Edit: I can continue to provide unsupported linguistic speculation all day.

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 02:27:32 PM
How nice of Psellus to come along and tell me my ethnicity doesn't exist.

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 03:50:53 PM

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 03:20:00 PM
The problem is that, whoever wrote these points, they are apparently not true according to people who actually speak the languages.

Do your examples live in Ukraine?  I've only heard from DG, and he hasn't lived all his life there.

Quote62% ain't bad.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 03:54:31 PM
Exactly.  "Ukrainian" is based largely on the language of the lands formerly occupied by the Austro-Hungarians and Poles.  Alternatively, Kiev has been ruled by Moscow from the time of Tsar Aleksei.  It's not some kind of hideous, awful plot by the Jew-Muscovites that people in Kiev spoke Russian almost exclusively until independence.

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Do your examples live in Ukraine?  I've only heard from DG, and he hasn't lived all his life there.

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 04:02:12 PM
No-one denies that the two languages are related. The point here is that Ukrainian is closer to Polish than Russian, and no-one claims that Polish and Russian are basically the same languages, or that Polish and Ukranian are basically the same languages.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 03:54:31 PM
Jew-Muscovites

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 04:16:42 PM
I'm not really making that claim. I'm merely speculating that linguistic similarities plus geographical proximity would make the languages fairly mutually intelligible for people who live there. 

QuotePlus, from what I understand many native Ukrainians with Ukrainian as their primary language speak Russian as a second language.

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 04:16:12 PM
The Ukrainian language didn't change since I left.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 03:54:31 PM

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 27, 2014, 03:43:00 PM
Ukrainian and Russian have been constructed as separate languages, but they're also on a linguistic continuum. It seems possible that  those people in central and eastern Ukraine who speak "a mix of Russian and Ukrainian" are actually speaking the same language that their ancestors spoke for centuries -- a dialect somewhere in the transitional zone between the two.


Edit: I can continue to provide unsupported linguistic speculation all day.

Exactly.  "Ukrainian" is based largely on the language of the lands formerly occupied by the Austro-Hungarians and Poles.  Alternatively, Kiev has been ruled by Moscow from the time of Tsar Aleksei.  It's not some kind of hideous, awful plot by the Jew-Muscovites that people in Kiev spoke Russian almost exclusively until independence.

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 04:20:35 PM
So what, most Scandinavians can speak very good English.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 04:24:56 PM

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 04:20:35 PM
So what, most Scandinavians can speak very good English.

Probably in part due to the common germanic root.

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 04:20:35 PM
The languages are not mutually intelligible just on the basis of knowing another language.  If Ukrainians and Russians can communicate, it's because they are bilingual.

Quote
So what, most Scandinavians can speak very good English.

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 04:16:42 PM

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 04:02:12 PM
No-one denies that the two languages are related. The point here is that Ukrainian is closer to Polish than Russian, and no-one claims that Polish and Russian are basically the same languages, or that Polish and Ukranian are basically the same languages.

I'm not really making that claim. I'm merely speculating that linguistic similarities plus geographical proximity would make the languages fairly mutually intelligible for people who live there. 

Plus, from what I understand many native Ukrainians with Ukrainian as their primary language speak Russian as a second language.

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 04:27:29 PMa lot of similarities between Germanic languages.

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 04:04:06 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 03:54:31 PM
Exactly.  "Ukrainian" is based largely on the language of the lands formerly occupied by the Austro-Hungarians and Poles.  Alternatively, Kiev has been ruled by Moscow from the time of Tsar Aleksei.  It's not some kind of hideous, awful plot by the Jew-Muscovites that people in Kiev spoke Russian almost exclusively until independence.

Wut?  :lol:

QuoteThe point here is that Ukrainian is closer to Polish than Russian,

QuoteThe languages are not mutually intelligible just on the basis of knowing another language.  If Ukrainians and Russians can communicate, it's because they are bilingual.

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 04:27:14 PM
Maybe.  But English has very little grammatically in common with other Germanic languages and our vocabulary is all shot to hell. 

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
As it is, Ukrainian Nationalism poisons things and makes it so that Ukrainian schoolkids can't read fucking Gogol.   

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 04:28:15 PM
Why can't most English people speak French? After all, France is only just across the Channel, and French has had a great deal of influence on the development of English as a language. Also, lots of English people learn French as a second language.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
Ukrainian Nationalists are anti-Semites.

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 04:42:59 PM
Nor should they.  Gogol sucks.  Dead Souls killed mine a little.

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 04:43:53 PM
If my wife is an anti-Semite, she has chosen a very strange way of expressing it.  :lol:

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 04:39:05 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 04:27:14 PM
Maybe.  But English has very little grammatically in common with other Germanic languages and our vocabulary is all shot to hell. 

The more I've learned German (and been exposed to other Germanic languages), the more I've discovered we do have in common with them.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
  I think it would be best for everyone in the region if they settled on some kind of shared identity like Scandinavians or Germans across Germany and Austria.     

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 04:32:51 PM

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 04:04:06 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 03:54:31 PM
Exactly.  "Ukrainian" is based largely on the language of the lands formerly occupied by the Austro-Hungarians and Poles.  Alternatively, Kiev has been ruled by Moscow from the time of Tsar Aleksei.  It's not some kind of hideous, awful plot by the Jew-Muscovites that people in Kiev spoke Russian almost exclusively until independence.

Wut?  :lol:

Ukrainian Nationalists are anti-Semites.

QuoteThe point here is that Ukrainian is closer to Polish than Russian,

Not really. 

I'd bet an Englishman and a Frenchman could communicate as well as an Englishman as a German.  Still, the closer genetic relationship is German-English.

QuoteThe languages are not mutually intelligible just on the basis of knowing another language.  If Ukrainians and Russians can communicate, it's because they are bilingual.

I think you misunderstood my point on Swiss German-German. 

When a Swabian and a Hanoverian talk they talk in High German.  When a Savoyard and a Sicilian speak they speak in Italian, a dialect primarily derived from Etruscan.  I don't think there's any compelling reason there's a difference in the relationship between the Swabians, Bavarians, Rhinelanders , Brandenbergers, Saxons and their "Germanness" is different from the relationship between Rusyns, Galicians, Cossacks, Siberians, Muscovites, Belorussians and their "Russianness." The linguistic differences in German are more extreme.  I think it would be best for everyone in the region if they settled on some kind of shared identity like Scandinavians or Germans across Germany and Austria.  As it is, Ukrainian Nationalism poisons things and makes it so that Ukrainian schoolkids can't read fucking Gogol.   

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 04:43:53 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
Ukrainian Nationalists are anti-Semites.

If my wife is an anti-Semite, she has chosen a very strange way of expressing it.  :lol:

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 05:06:16 PM

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 04:43:53 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
Ukrainian Nationalists are anti-Semites.

If my wife is an anti-Semite, she has chosen a very strange way of expressing it.  :lol:

He's got a bit of a point there in general.  Ukrainian Nationalists, at least the ones from Western Ukraine, score high on the anti-Semitism scale even by the lofty standards of Eastern Europe.

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 04:27:14 PMMaybe.  But English has very little grammatically in common with other Germanic languages and our vocabulary is all shot to hell.

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 05:06:16 PM

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 04:43:53 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
Ukrainian Nationalists are anti-Semites.

If my wife is an anti-Semite, she has chosen a very strange way of expressing it.  :lol:

He's got a bit of a point there in general.  Ukrainian Nationalists, at least the ones from Western Ukraine, score high on the anti-Semitism scale even by the lofty standards of Eastern Europe.

Quote from: Jacob on January 27, 2014, 05:11:07 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 04:27:14 PMMaybe.  But English has very little grammatically in common with other Germanic languages and our vocabulary is all shot to hell.

?

English sentence structures are basically identical to Scandinavian ones. English vocabulary is basically 50% Danish, and much of the French influence has been absorbed in Danish too. The main obstacle is pronounciation, not grammar nor vocabulary.

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 05:19:47 PM

Quote from: Jacob on January 27, 2014, 05:11:07 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 04:27:14 PMMaybe.  But English has very little grammatically in common with other Germanic languages and our vocabulary is all shot to hell.

?

English sentence structures are basically identical to Scandinavian ones. English vocabulary is basically 50% Danish, and much of the French influence has been absorbed in Danish too. The main obstacle is pronounciation, not grammar nor vocabulary.

Whatever you have three extra weird letters.

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 05:19:47 PM

Quote from: Jacob on January 27, 2014, 05:11:07 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 04:27:14 PMMaybe.  But English has very little grammatically in common with other Germanic languages and our vocabulary is all shot to hell.

?

English sentence structures are basically identical to Scandinavian ones. English vocabulary is basically 50% Danish, and much of the French influence has been absorbed in Danish too. The main obstacle is pronounciation, not grammar nor vocabulary.

Whatever you have three extra weird letters.

Quote from: HVC on January 27, 2014, 05:24:27 PM
Whatever you have three extra weird letters.

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 05:23:39 PM
I won't disagree that Ukrainian nationalists can be anti-semitic, but I really don't think that's unique or inherrent to the movement.

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 27, 2014, 05:24:04 PM
What's up with that, anyway? Peasants 100 years ago who regularly lost children to the winter and were whipped every day by their feudal lords were antisemitic because their priests -- the most trusted and only literate men in town -- acting on orders from the Patriarch and Tsar told them that it was all the Jews' fault. But now? Shit, there are hardly any Jews left over there.

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 05:30:59 PM
A little more than that.  Jews were often money changers and financiers, and who throughout history actually likes bankers?

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 05:30:59 PM

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 27, 2014, 05:24:04 PM
What's up with that, anyway? Peasants 100 years ago who regularly lost children to the winter and were whipped every day by their feudal lords were antisemitic because their priests -- the most trusted and only literate men in town -- acting on orders from the Patriarch and Tsar told them that it was all the Jews' fault. But now? Shit, there are hardly any Jews left over there.

A little more than that.  Jews were often money changers and financiers, and who throughout history actually likes bankers?

QuoteMeet the Opposition Leaders at the Helm of Euromaidan

Annabelle Chapman
ANNABELLE CHAPMAN is a journalist writing from Poland and Ukraine. Follower her on Twitter @AB_Chapman.
Over the last few days, Ukraine has seen the worst clashes since antigovernment protests began in November after Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych refused to sign an association agreement with the European Union. In the last two months, Yanukovych and his supporters have declined to make any concessions to the opposition, responding instead with riot police and, last week, a set of laws intended to severely curtail the protests. Talks between Yanukovych and the opposition, when they have taken place, have come to nothing. Now, with violence rising in Kiev's Independence Square, known as the Maidan, Ukraine's opposition leaders must decide what to do next.

Ukraine's Euromaidan, as the demonstration is known, has three leaders but no hero. That is somewhat surprising for a country with such a long tradition of protest, including, most recently, the Orange Revolution. In 2004, Viktor Yushchenko, who had previously been prime minister and whose face was permanently scarred from a dioxin poisoning, and Yulia Tymoshenko, who had previously been deputy prime minister, came to embody the hopes of millions of Ukrainians and successfully challenged the results of a massively fraudulent election. This time around, three opposition leaders have attempted to guide the protests: Vitali Klitschko, Oleh Tyahnybok, and Arseniy Yatsenyuk, an unlikely trio of politicians who banded together after parliamentary elections in October 2012 to create what they called a united opposition.


Vitali Klitschko, January 2014. (Gleb Garanich / Courtesy Reuters)
Klitschko is likely the most familiar of the three to readers in the West. This 42-year-old world-boxing champion has been widely profiled in the international press; I interviewed [1] him in Kiev shortly before the protests began. In 2012, his party, UDAR (the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform, literally "punch"), made it into parliament with 14 percent of the vote on an anticorruption platform. Klitschko spent years in Germany for his boxing career and speaks English and excellent German. He wants Ukrainians to enjoy European living standards and has emerged as a leading proponent of closer relations with the European Union, which he believes will make Ukraine a wealthier and better-run place. He has already been tipped as a future president for Ukraine, although many Ukrainians worry about his lack of experience and weak oratory skills.


Oleh Tyahnybok, January 2014. (Gleb Garanich / Courtesy Reuters)
Tyahnybok, who hails from Lviv, is the leader of the nationalist Svoboda ("Freedom") party, whose stronghold is western Ukraine. The party finished recent parliamentary elections with ten percent of the overall vote. Svoboda has been particularly visible at the protests, although that reflects its own opportunism more than the views of most of the protesters. For example, Svoboda holds itself up as a champion of Ukrainian language and culture. All too often, though, that is accompanied by aggressively nationalist and xenophobic rhetoric. (In the past, Tyahnybok has referred to the "Jewish-Russian mafia, which rules in Ukraine.") Like the other opposition parties, Svoboda wants Ukraine to sign the Association Agreement with the European Union. But its more radical views fit uneasily with its supposedly pro-European stance and are a source of concern for many observers in Ukraine and abroad.


Arseniy Yatsenyuk, January 2014. (Gleb Garanich / Courtesy Reuters)
The third leader, Yatsenyuk, has been all but overlooked in the international media, although he is by far the most politically experienced of the three. At 39, he has already served as foreign minister, finance minister, and speaker of Ukraine's parliament. Yatsenyuk leads Tymoshenko's Fatherland coalition in her absence; in the 2012 elections, the party came in second, after Yanukovych's Party of Regions, with 26 percent of the vote. Fatherland won the support [2] of the west and center of Ukraine, the areas that traditionally back the Orange Revolution and are most hostile to Yanukovych. Yatsenyuk lacks charisma and has failed to capture Ukrainians' attention like Tymoshenko once did. But a number of Ukrainians have told me that he is the safest and most realistic candidate the opposition has on offer, as he is neither an inexperienced sports celebrity nor a fiery nationalist.

So far, there has been enough room for all three men at the protests. Klitschko has been seen patrolling the barricades and tough-talking anyone who seems keen to provoke violence, sometimes accompanied by his younger brother, Wladimir (also a boxing champion). Tyahnybok has appeared on the stage in the Maidan with the other two leaders and has toned down his rhetoric. Meanwhile, Yatsenyuk has been calling for unity in the face of mounting pressure. The clashes of the last few days have highlighted the need for them to take a stand to curb the violence. A video of Klitschko [3] published on Monday, in which he calls on all Ukrainians to come to Kiev to protect their future, is an attempt at leadership. But the protesters are expecting more.



To that end, the opposition has called for an early presidential election, but Yanukovych has ignored them. They will have to wait until the next one, in March 2015. Very early polls suggest that Klitschko has the best chance of winning against Yanukovych in a runoff (roughly 43 percent of respondents [4] would vote for him, compared with Yanukovych's 25 percent). But the all-important question of who will run remains unanswered. Klitschko wants the opposition to put forward a single candidate (presumably himself), whereas Yatsenyuk maintains that it should run multiple politicians. Running more than one candidate would split the opposition vote in the first round. But there is also an increasingly valid objection to Klitschko's vision: One registered opposition candidate makes it easier for the authorities to target and eliminate him.

In Yanukovych's Ukraine, elimination is a real possibility. His biggest rival, Tymoshenko, is conveniently behind bars. In October 2013, the Ukrainian parliament passed a law that prevents Klitschko, who has permanent resident status in Germany, from running for president. (He says he still will.) Yatsenyuk could be next: On December 8, the media reported that Ukraine's security service, the SBU, has launched investigations against the opposition for "activities aimed at overthrowing the government" -- in other words, a coup. The stories named no names, but the next day, police raided the Kiev headquarters of Yatsenyuk's Fatherland. Fearing it would be next, Klitschko's UDAR evacuated its own offices that night. A set of laws that was pushed through parliament by Yanukovych's supporters only adds to the sense of siege. One of the laws strips members of parliament of their parliamentary immunity, which could open the door to further arrests.

If Klitschko and Yatsenyuk are pushed out of the game, Tyahnybok, the nationalist, would be the only realistic opposition candidate left. And that could be exactly what Yanukovych has in mind. Recent polls [4] suggest that even Tyahnybok could win against Yanukovych in a standoff. However, his candidacy would further polarize the country between east and west, and put liberal Ukrainians in a sticky situation. Besides, the margin between Yanukovych and Tyahnybok is so small (less than two percentage points) that Yanukovych could be tempted to try to steal the vote -- and get away with it.

All the same, it seems like the opposition leaders increasingly see the 2015 election, not the protests, as the real opportunity for change. They will need to stay ahead of Yanukovych, who desperately wants to be re-elected. They should draw on (but not take advantage of, as some activists claim) the civic initiatives that have blossomed since the Euromaidan protests began -- of which Hromadske.tv [5], a civic news channel set up by some of Ukraine's top journalists, is just one example.

They will also need to contend with the gulf between themselves and the protesters. And this rift goes back to the first days of the pro-European demonstrations, when nonpartisan protesters gathered on the Maidan while the opposition parties stood on the nearby European Square. Many civic activists accused the opposition leaders of trying to usurp the protests for their own political gain and of having no strategy. "I wonder where the opposition leaders were when police attacked peaceful demonstrators?" one young woman said to me when riot police first cleared Independence Square in November. This resentment was more evident than ever at the height of the clashes on January 19. "We no longer need a single candidate for president," shouted an activist from the stage on the Maidan, a reference to the opposition's lack of agreement on who will run in 2015. "We need a leader!"

"Lenin fell because he was jealous: he triggered one revolution, and Yanukovych has triggered two," Yatsenyuk said after the statue of Lenin in Kiev was toppled in early December. The next months will show who, if anyone, is capable of toppling Yanukovych -- in a presidential election or otherwise. What happens after will determine whether Ukraine will go on to be a democracy. The hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who have protested on Independence Square do not want another Yanukovych. Nor do they want another Yushchenko -- that would be the biggest betrayal of all.

Quote from: Jacob on January 27, 2014, 05:11:07 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 04:27:14 PMMaybe.  But English has very little grammatically in common with other Germanic languages and our vocabulary is all shot to hell.

?

English sentence structures are basically identical to Scandinavian ones. English vocabulary is basically 50% Danish, and much of the French influence has been absorbed in Danish too. The main obstacle is pronounciation, not grammar nor vocabulary.

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 27, 2014, 05:24:04 PM
What's up with that, anyway? Peasants 100 years ago who regularly lost children to the winter and were whipped every day by their feudal lords were antisemitic because their priests -- the most trusted and only literate men in town -- acting on orders from the Patriarch and Tsar told them that it was all the Jews' fault. But now? Shit, there are hardly any Jews left over there.

Quote from: Jacob on January 27, 2014, 05:26:59 PM

Quote from: HVC on January 27, 2014, 05:24:27 PM
are Danes one of the ones with the holy A's?

We have Æ, Ø, & Å

It turns out we - since 1980 - have W as well.

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 02:55:16 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 27, 2014, 02:48:25 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 02:44:59 PM

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 02:36:48 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 02:20:35 PM
It's the difference between Swiss German and German.

I don't know the difference between Swiss German and German, as I speak neither, but I do know the difference between Russian and Ukrainian.  Those languages are not that close to each other;  I can understand Russian perfectly, but I can understand Ukrainian about as well as I can understand Polish.  Which is to say very poorly.

But you don't live close to Ukraine or Poland.  If you did, I'd imagine you'd be able to understand it better.  FWIW, for an outsider like me Ukrainian and Russian seem to have a lot of similarities.

Dguller was lived in Ukraine in a city close to Polish border.

For how long?

What comes to mind is how difficult it is for me to understand Portuguese very well, even though it has a decent bit in common with Spanish.  Yet my wife & most other Argies I know can understand nearly all of it, no doubt due to living (or having lived for a good while) so close to Brazil.

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
62% ain't bad.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 05:36:17 PM
I do not want to paint all Ukrainian nationalists as Anti-Semites. 

The "Jew-Muscovite" thing was from this Foreign Affairs article I read a few days ago;
Ukraine's Big Three

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 04:56:24 PM
PSellus, who never met a minority group he didn't lust over, hates Ukrainians.  Figures.

And Ukrainian schoolkids should be reading Shevchenko. :contract:L

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2014, 05:51:57 PM
On the other hand Ukrainian nationalists want closer relations with the EU. A look around the rest of Eastern and Central Europe suggests that's generally a positive thing regardless of the history or literary element.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2014, 05:51:57 PM
Anyway it's nowhere near as ridiculous or sad as the break-up of Serbo-Croat into Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian etc.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 05:49:02 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 04:56:24 PM
PSellus, who never met a minority group he didn't lust over, hates Ukrainians.  Figures.

And Ukrainian schoolkids should be reading Shevchenko. :contract:L

Not really.  You really think I could dislike Galicia and Cossacks?  Kiev? 

I just think Ukrainian nationalism is generally not positive for a bunch of reasons. Half of Ukraine has a way closer attachment to Moscow than Lviv or other Western cities. There's no sensible argument that Chernigov, Sebastopol, Donetsk and Cherson belong to some kind of real, existing Ukraine that has been a thing opposed to Moscow for however long.  The Crimea went from Tatar to Russian, and the various Hetmanates were populated as much by Russians as anyone.  Trying to force a different identity on people who have been Russian speaking forever is absurd.  Up until 1870, the vast majority of the Eastern Slavic population would have called themselves "Orthodox" or "Greek Catholic" or "from Ryazan".

Also, Gogol is the best Ukrainian writer.  He was from Sorochyntsi and a lot of his early stories have a lot of folk-influence.  I think it's really sad that some kids are going to have to read Ukrainian translations of Bulgakov and Gogol, both of whom were by today's standards Ukrainians.  Or, you know.  Pushkin.  Tolstoy.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2014, 05:56:03 PM
Surely the difference is that those are separatist movements.

Ukraine is already a country. So your position seems a bit like saying to Croatia and Bosnia that they should get back into Yugoslavia, they're not that different than the Serbs after all.

Quote
How about 'Russia is currently a shithole run by Putin's mafia, and these kids would have a better future - and more chances to read Gogol, etc. - if their country inclines towards the West'?

Quotehaving their own country?

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2014, 05:43:38 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
62% ain't bad.

62% is about the same as English to Frisian. Here's a short film in Frisian to give you an idea of how close that is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-5knZRuwNI

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 06:01:18 PM
Of course it is a shithole, it was part of the USSR.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:00:00 PM

Quote
How about 'Russia is currently a shithole run by Putin's mafia, and these kids would have a better future - and more chances to read Gogol, etc. - if their country inclines towards the West'?

Ukraine's also a shithole.

Quote from: derspiess on January 27, 2014, 06:02:15 PM
If I lived adjacent to Frisia all my life I'd imagine I would be able to pick up on a fair amount of that.  As it stands, I got nothing as Youtube is blocked here at work and my work-around doesn't always do the trick :(  Will try it at home.

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 06:02:32 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 06:01:18 PM
Of course it is a shithole, it was part of the USSR.

Baltics have done okay for themselves.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 05:59:20 PM
Kind of?  I think the entire Balkans are an absurdity.  We're supporting nations the size of Columbus, Ohio.  Again; anti-Nationalist.

QuoteUkraine's also a shithole.

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 06:10:00 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 06:02:32 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 06:01:18 PM
Of course it is a shithole, it was part of the USSR.

Baltics have done okay for themselves.

Baltics are a special case.  Baltics have throughout the history of USSR had far more effective autonomy than any other part, since they were so openly rebellious.  Therefore they started from a higher point, spent the least amount of time under Soviet rule, and had the minimum interference from the Soviet Union possible.

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 06:05:34 PM
Certainly ... and people are blaming it, rightly or wrongly, on the fact that it was "soviet-ized" under Russian domination for decades and is currently is being run by a guy who is seen as one of Putin's cronies.

In short, that close relations with Russia  (i.e., domination)  have, over the last hundred years or so, made the country into a shithole and are keeping the country as a shithole.  Understandably, they believe, rightly or wrongly, that a different course - more inclined towards Europe than Russia - would perhaps lead them to having a country that is less of a shithole.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:17:19 PM
I understand why people would think this, but the "ethnic Russian" regions of Ukraine are the wealthiest.  The regions ruled by Poland until 1939 are dirt poor.

QuoteWhy does it matter if a country's small? I mean actually I think small countries can be unusually successful - none of the Scandi or Low countries are terribly large and they tend to do well on all sorts of measures.

I know Americans have this in the bone dislike of separatism, but really what's the problem? I mean forcing Serbs and Bosniacs to live together isn't working, so it certainly wouldn't on a larger scale.

Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2014, 06:19:44 PM
If you are of the opinion that being run by the Soviets did Ukraine good overall rather than harm, I think you are going to be awfully lonely in that position.  :lol:

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:21:51 PM
That's not what I'm saying, but blaming Moscow for all of Ukraine's ills doesn't have anything to do with facts or evidence and everything to do with nationalism. 

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 06:24:04 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:21:51 PM
That's not what I'm saying, but blaming Moscow for all of Ukraine's ills doesn't have anything to do with facts or evidence and everything to do with nationalism. 

Facts?  You are the guy who blamed 19 years of rule by Poland.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:25:38 PM
How much Ukrainian history do you know?

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:20:04 PM
When Yugoslavia worked it worked a lot better than the current situation.  I think it's an unfortunate reality that in times of political and economic collapse people fall back on their most basic identities, and that the collapse of Yugoslavia had a lot more to do with Socialism being terrible than the idea of Yugoslavia being bad.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:20:04 PM
When Yugoslavia worked it worked a lot better than the current situation.  I think it's an unfortunate reality that in times of political and economic collapse people fall back on their most basic identities, and that the collapse of Yugoslavia had a lot more to do with Socialism being terrible than the idea of Yugoslavia being bad.

QuoteThat's not what I'm saying, but blaming Moscow for all of Ukraine's ills doesn't have anything to do with facts or evidence and everything to do with nationalism.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:31:29 PM
Rule of Western Ukraine by Moscow: 1939-1941, 1941-1990. 
Rule of Western Ukraine by Poland: 1918-1939
Rule of Western Ukraine by the Austro-Hungarian Empire: 1795-1914
rule of Western Ukraine by Poland and Lithuania: 14th Century-18th Century.

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 06:29:59 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:25:38 PM
How much Ukrainian history do you know?

Enough to know a country's modern economy is probably based more on its 1945-present history than what happened between 1920 and 1939.  Somehow I think whatever happened when the Poles were in charge was all demolished during WWII anyway.

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 06:33:14 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:31:29 PM
Rule of Western Ukraine by Moscow: 1939-1941, 1941-1990. 
Rule of Western Ukraine by Poland: 1918-1939
Rule of Western Ukraine by the Austro-Hungarian Empire: 1795-1914
rule of Western Ukraine by Poland and Lithuania: 14th Century-18th Century.

I thought we were talking about modern economics not the ability of the 16th peasants to acquire adequate supplies of manure.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 27, 2014, 06:27:06 PM
Oh dear god.

Quote from: HVC on January 27, 2014, 06:34:46 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 27, 2014, 06:27:06 PM
Oh dear god.

your liver can't take all the shots, can it?

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:31:29 PM
Rule of Western Ukraine by Moscow: 1939-1941, 1941-1990. 
Rule of Western Ukraine by Poland: 1918-1939
Rule of Western Ukraine by the Austro-Hungarian Empire: 1795-1914
rule of Western Ukraine by Poland and Lithuania: 14th Century-18th Century.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:31:29 PM
Rule of Western Ukraine by Moscow: 1939-1941, 1941-1990. 
Rule of Western Ukraine by Poland: 1918-1939
Rule of Western Ukraine by the Austro-Hungarian Empire: 1795-1914
rule of Western Ukraine by Poland and Lithuania: 14th Century-18th Century.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:34:23 PM
Again, not really?  Germany went from rubble to the wealthiest nation in Europe in, what, 30 years?  These historical legacies are crucial.

QuoteI'm not sure I agree with any of this. I'm not sure when Yugoslavia worked or what you can really mean by working. I think nationalism exists in all sorts of situations not just political and economic collapse - as you can see in Yugoslavia, but also Scotland and Catalonia.

QuoteThe idea of Yugoslavia may be bad the practice was only ever really possible with Tito.

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 06:39:34 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:34:23 PM
Again, not really?  Germany went from rubble to the wealthiest nation in Europe in, what, 30 years?  These historical legacies are crucial.

It did?  Because East Germany sure looked like a shithole after 30 years.  Strange that it had such a positive impact in the Ukraine.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 06:37:38 PM
Spellus, I love history and pulling history into all sorts of topics. But I don't see how Poland-Lithuania in the 18th century has much impact on income distribution today. For instance, in the US we generally discount the impact of the different economic systems of the Cherokee, Apachee, and Navajo when talking about why states are better off than others.

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 06:02:32 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 06:01:18 PM
Of course it is a shithole, it was part of the USSR.

Baltics have done okay for themselves.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:41:33 PMIDK. 

I think you're overselling the dysfunction of Titoist Yugoslavia.  It was probably the most functional of the Authoritarian Socialist states.  It wasn't a horrible place to live. Some kind of federated republic a la India wasn't an impossibility.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:42:32 PM
East Germany was by a substantial margin the wealthiest nation of the Warsaw Pact.

QuoteNot quite. It was the richest Eastern Bloc state aside from East Germany.

Quote
But it only worked with Tito. He was very unpopular with Serbs because they thought he favoured Slovenia and Croatia (and his parents were Slovene and Croatian). Though they may have had a point, the problem with Yugoslavia was, I think in Tito's words, that you need a weak Serbia for a strong Yugoslavia. And Titoist Yugoslavia was the most open of the Eastern Bloc, I know lots of other Eastern Europeans were excited by holidays there because it was a little bit more free. But any nationalism was crushed by Tito, nothing would be more likely to get a visit from the secret police because, I think rightly, he knew how precarious the state was. In general there's a reason he's still wildly popular in Sarajevo but not in Belgrade.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:42:32 PM
East Germany was by a substantial margin the wealthiest nation of the Warsaw Pact.

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 07:11:25 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:42:32 PM
East Germany was by a substantial margin the wealthiest nation of the Warsaw Pact.

Which makes it shittyness that much more damning of the entire Eastern Bloc eh?

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 07:11:01 PM
Especially impressive considering that it was competing with established industrial economies like Czechoslovakia.

Quote from: Jacob on January 27, 2014, 06:52:59 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 27, 2014, 06:02:32 PM

Quote from: Valmy on January 27, 2014, 06:01:18 PM
Of course it is a shithole, it was part of the USSR.

Baltics have done okay for themselves.

AFAIK the Baltics have received a lot of assistance from Scandinavia since they became independent; not necessarily just in monetary terms, but in terms of cultural exchanges, help with infrastructure and governance, trade balance credits, organizing the armed forces and other institutions, dedicated sponsorship and guidance to enter the EU and NATO, etc. There was a very real sentiment of kinship - at least in Denmark and Sweden, not sure about Norway - and a desire to help the transition out of the USSR sphere and find their legs again.

I think that may have played a significant role, and I don't think any of the other SSRs have had similar help.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 05:37:24 PM
Doesn't Danish have 3 cases? 

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 06:44:38 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 06:37:38 PM
Spellus, I love history and pulling history into all sorts of topics. But I don't see how Poland-Lithuania in the 18th century has much impact on income distribution today. For instance, in the US we generally discount the impact of the different economic systems of the Cherokee, Apachee, and Navajo when talking about why states are better off than others.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the sparsely populated but incredibly per capita wealthy United States of 1790 became the largest economy in the world, or that most of the wealthiest parts of the world in 1790 are still super rich.  Changing the basics of economic and political behavior requires massive, violent shifts or long-term evolution.

Quote from: Liep on January 27, 2014, 08:01:16 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 05:37:24 PM
Doesn't Danish have 3 cases? 

We don't have any.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 09:29:28 PM
I've seen a lot of Danish movies though and I've never been able to understand so much as a numeral.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 08:51:23 PM

We aren't comparing Germany and Chad right now. East and West Ukraine are not radically different economically, and has been pointed out the East = Rich, West = Poor dynamic has not been constant. If they were at or near parity during periods of the recent past, going to the 18th century for the current disparity seems like a stretch.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:33:57 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 09:29:28 PM
I've seen a lot of Danish movies though and I've never been able to understand so much as a numeral.

You are a better man than I am. I've never seen a Danish movie, but if I started watching them, I am sure I would give up after one or two films if I couldn't make out a single word.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 09:35:16 PM

Hmm.

Well historically the shitty Russian agricultural system was not established in Galicia and western and to some extent central Ukraine, so they had an advantage in agricultural production, in addition to the land basically being able to shit crops.  However, collectivization and the holodomor fucked that up.  But I think Eastern Ukraine had some real industrial advantages.  I'd kind of expect it to eventually become something like Belgium; agricultural Flanders beat out by Industrial Wallonia, eventually beat out by post-industrial Flanders.  That's probably what the pro-EU Ukrainian activists want too.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 09:35:54 PM

I meant to say they were subtitled if that wasn't clear.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2014, 09:41:29 PM
I once watched a Dutch movie with no subtitles.  :)

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:42:43 PM
The language of love is universal.  ;)

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2014, 09:45:11 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:42:43 PM
The language of love is universal.  ;)

It was a cop movie.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:33:57 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 09:29:28 PM
I've seen a lot of Danish movies though and I've never been able to understand so much as a numeral.

You are a better man than I am. I've never seen a Danish movie, but if I started watching them, I am sure I would give up after one or two films if I couldn't make out a single word.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 09:29:28 PM
Apparently there are two Danish "classes" and both Swedish and Danish have some vestigial genitive.  It's interesting though, I didn't realize how close they were.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2014, 10:28:38 PM
That's dirty Teamster money Boner.  Don't take it.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2014, 10:28:38 PM
That's dirty Teamster money Boner.  Don't take it.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2014, 11:05:37 PM
It's dirty scab money Boner, don't take it.

Quote from: katmai on January 27, 2014, 11:18:43 PM
Just can't please Yip.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:40:51 PM
You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 27, 2014, 10:28:38 PM
That's dirty Teamster money Boner.  Don't take it.

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 28, 2014, 12:01:34 AM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:40:51 PM
You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

What's so wrong with the climate?  I gather the Ukraine is similar to the American Midwest, and the rest of Eastern Europe doesn't seem significantly more harsh than Germany or Sweden...

QuoteThe climate of the Ukraine can be described as dry and continental influenced climate with warm, dry summers and fairly severe winters. January is the coldest month with daytime temperatures usually around 0°C, but in some cases winter months can be quite colder with temperatures far below zero, about -20°C or lower and strong, cold northeasterly winds, called Bora. Heavy snowfall or even snowstorms are also possible on some days. There are more than 290 sunny days in the year. Since Odessa region is drawn out along the meridian, the climate in the narrow � 30-40 km. � stretch along the coast is practically ideal, with the soft tang of the sea mixing with the dry climate of the steppe further inland.

In summer daytime temperatures reach 25-30°C, but sometimes quite higher, 35°C or more, especially in the inland areas. The summer months enjoy dry weather with sunny spells most of the time, rain often falls with sometimes heavy Thunderstorms, but mostly along the coastal areas of the Black Sea. These Thunderstorms often occur at the end of the day. July is the warmest month with an average Temperature of 24°C. Annual Precipitation is about 400-600 mm, but lower in the inland areas of the Ukraine.

Generally, the weather is best May-September, when days are warm and the nights are cool, although it rains more in Spring than in summer. Autumn and Winter are usually a little chilly and wet along the coastal areas of the Black Sea, and dryer further inland.

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 27, 2014, 07:33:24 PMWhatever impact the aid had, the Estonians I know would say an even greater factor was cultural, not just because the Kinship factor with the Scandis but because the Estonians had a strong view of the themselves as industrious people (in addition to a very strong hatred of the Russians).

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 12:15:44 AM

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 28, 2014, 12:01:34 AM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:40:51 PM
You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

What's so wrong with the climate?  I gather the Ukraine is similar to the American Midwest, and the rest of Eastern Europe doesn't seem significantly more harsh than Germany or Sweden...

Sweden has a low population density and my understanding is that Scandanavia in general was rather poor prior to WWI.

The further east you go from the ocean the colder the continent gets (in general). Germany may not be much warmer than the Ukraine, but I believe it is warmer, and also benefits from being near countries like France, the Netherlands, and the UK.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:40:51 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 27, 2014, 09:35:16 PM

Hmm.

Well historically the shitty Russian agricultural system was not established in Galicia and western and to some extent central Ukraine, so they had an advantage in agricultural production, in addition to the land basically being able to shit crops.  However, collectivization and the holodomor fucked that up.  But I think Eastern Ukraine had some real industrial advantages.  I'd kind of expect it to eventually become something like Belgium; agricultural Flanders beat out by Industrial Wallonia, eventually beat out by post-industrial Flanders.  That's probably what the pro-EU Ukrainian activists want too.

You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 28, 2014, 12:02:51 AM
Not to correct you on your own nicknames, but Cal's not "Boner," is he?  :huh:

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2014, 06:13:25 PM
I know Americans have this in the bone dislike of separatism, but really what's the problem? I mean forcing Serbs and Bosniacs to live together isn't working, so it certainly wouldn't on a larger scale.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 28, 2014, 01:18:56 AM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2014, 06:13:25 PM
I know Americans have this in the bone dislike of separatism, but really what's the problem? I mean forcing Serbs and Bosniacs to live together isn't working, so it certainly wouldn't on a larger scale.

I worked fine for 80 years.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 28, 2014, 01:18:56 AM
If the world had half as many countries it would be a much better place.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:40:51 PM
You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

Quote from: Lettow77 on January 28, 2014, 04:56:42 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 28, 2014, 01:18:56 AM
If the world had half as many countries it would be a much better place.

One of the few ways I could see this being true is if it referred to the sovereignty of African countries being revoked and restored to responsible western rule.

Quote from: Iormlund on January 28, 2014, 07:24:25 AM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 27, 2014, 09:40:51 PM
You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

At least in Spain and Italy, the better the climate is, the less advanced the economy will be.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 28, 2014, 01:18:56 AM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2014, 06:13:25 PM
I know Americans have this in the bone dislike of separatism, but really what's the problem? I mean forcing Serbs and Bosniacs to live together isn't working, so it certainly wouldn't on a larger scale.

I worked fine for 80 years.

If the world had half as many countries it would be a much better place.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 28, 2014, 01:18:56 AM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2014, 06:13:25 PM
I know Americans have this in the bone dislike of separatism, but really what's the problem? I mean forcing Serbs and Bosniacs to live together isn't working, so it certainly wouldn't on a larger scale.

I worked fine for 80 years.

If the world had half as many countries it would be a much better place.

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 28, 2014, 12:38:14 AM
Ok, so you've revised it from climate to "population density + pre-WWI doesn't count + climate" that renders the Ukraine "destined to lag behind"??

And unlike Germany, the Ukraine actually has a Mediterranean climate within its borders (in the Crimea), and similarly benefits from being near warmer countries like Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey... Or did you mean "being near other rich countries" as the criterion?

Not to mention, of course, how tragically impossible it has been for areas like Colorado, Iowa, Minnesota, Saskatchewan, and Alberta to prosper since they're hamstrung by crippling climactic impediments.

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 06:05:45 PM
I still don't your line of argument here. 

QuoteJust because people get to learn two disparate languages due to living in a bilingual environment doesn't in any way connect these two languages.  People are capable of understanding multiple languages at the same time.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 12:09:55 PM
AR-Russia has never stood out culturally?

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 12:41:38 PM
In the 19th and 20th centuries Russia obviously produced a lot of great art. In that sense, it stands out. However, it was overall backward compared to Western Europe.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 12:41:38 PM

In the 19th and 20th centuries Russia obviously produced a lot of great art.

Quote from: derspiess on January 28, 2014, 12:55:07 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 12:41:38 PM
In the 19th and 20th centuries Russia obviously produced a lot of great art. In that sense, it stands out. However, it was overall backward compared to Western Europe.

And that all went to shit when they made the brilliant decision to kill or expel their aristocracy.

Quote from: derspiess on January 28, 2014, 12:55:07 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 12:41:38 PM
In the 19th and 20th centuries Russia obviously produced a lot of great art. In that sense, it stands out. However, it was overall backward compared to Western Europe.

And that all went to shit when they made the brilliant decision to kill or expel their aristocracy.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 01:59:27 PM
AR; alternative Acemoglu-y theory. 

Ukraine and Russia are right next door to the steppe, and took the full force of the Mongol invasion.  Prior to this, Russia and the Ukraine were generally speaking as, if not more, advanced than their other European counterparts.  Russian princes and princesses married in to Byzantine AND European royal lines, commerce was respected, and popular literacy was the rule.  Then comes the Mongols.  The Ukraine and Belarus are eventually conquered by ineffectual Lithuanians, Novgorod becomes a front for German merchant interests, and Muscovy comes to the top by out-Mongoling the Mongols.  The great commercial and political institutions of the Rus' are effectively buried by ineffectual Polish-Lithuanian oppression, a century of Muscovite autarky and, most importantly, an ineffectual Russian agricultural system that divided arable land that did not and could not withstand post-Petrine population growth. 

Poles, Lithuanians and Mongols all established strict extractive institutions that had little interest in making the lives of East Slav peasants easier, or their labor much more productive.  Muscovy's farmland was similarly ruled by an ineffectual elite with little interest in making work more effective or in the creation of inclusive social, political or economic institutions.  This was, if anything, further complicated by the role of foreign immigrants in the Imperial Russian and Polish economies.  The USSR was basically a continuation of this; the harshest possible extractive techniques by the harshest regime possible under occasional threat of racial extermination managed to get a lot done, but once the incentive structures started breaking down and were not replaced by inclusive institutions all hopes of redeeming the economy were gone.

If you want the reasons why certain nations in Europe were wealthy in the pre-Modern period, you want to look at institutions and practices far more than some more than half-imaginary climate reason that would only make sense if the entirety of Russia and the Ukraine was swampland.  Until very recently, a map of wealthy Germany was effectively a map of Germany that didn't divide farmland between all inheritors.   The Basques were for centuries one of the wealthiest ethnicities in Spain despite their land being poor.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 02:58:50 PM
Spellus, I don't know what Acemoglu-y theory is.

Quote1) that institutions and practices are important when looking at millenial long trends

Quote2) that Russia and the Ukraine were more advanced than European states.

Quote
On the second point, the time between a locally used slavic writing system and the mongol invasions was rather short. During that brief period, Europe was experiencing the high middle ages and the region did not produce the great works of other regions.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 01:36:02 PM
Tarkovsky, Eisenstein, Mayakovsky, Tsvetaeva (both killed themselves, though Mayakovsky may have been assassinated), Isaak Babel (admittedly executed), Lissitzky (died of starvation in Moscow in 41), Ivan Bilibin (ditto in Leningrad in 42). 

Quote from: derspiess on January 28, 2014, 03:32:54 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 01:36:02 PM
Tarkovsky, Eisenstein, Mayakovsky, Tsvetaeva (both killed themselves, though Mayakovsky may have been assassinated), Isaak Babel (admittedly executed), Lissitzky (died of starvation in Moscow in 41), Ivan Bilibin (ditto in Leningrad in 42). 

Of those I recognized Eisenstein, and he was way overrated.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 12:41:38 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 12:09:55 PM
AR-Russia has never stood out culturally?

I was referring to the Ukraine, but since Russia is in the same area it is a fair point.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 03:33:29 PM
Your cultural illiteracy isn't my problem.

Quote from: derspiess on January 28, 2014, 04:03:17 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 03:33:29 PM
Your cultural illiteracy isn't my problem.

:nerd:

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 04:17:42 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 28, 2014, 04:03:17 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 03:33:29 PM
Your cultural illiteracy isn't my problem.

:nerd:

Yes.  Clearly.  Knowledge of art and culture makes one a nerd, while the ignorance of it makes you awesome. 

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
I have to side with Spellus on this one. :(

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 03:32:40 PM
:hmm:
The Roman Empire?  The Catholic Church?  The free market?  The modern nation state? Liberal democracy?  The corporation?

QuoteI don't think that those make the difference when you look at a long enough time frame. Efficient and effective means of organization survive; those that aren't fail. Institutions evolve to meet the needs of society or are discarded. Good ideas travel.

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2014, 04:18:51 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 04:17:42 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 28, 2014, 04:03:17 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 03:33:29 PM
Your cultural illiteracy isn't my problem.

:nerd:

Yes.  Clearly.  Knowledge of art and culture makes one a nerd, while the ignorance of it makes you awesome. 

I have to side with Spellus on this one. :(

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 03:50:09 PM
Honestly, how absurd is this argument going to get?  I can name a half dozen European nations that never produced the likes of Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Gogol or Bulgakov, the latter two of whom were "ethnic Ukrainians."

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 04:45:28 PM
You specifically said that this part of the world under-produced culturally.  Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians are perfectly capable of economic and cultural productivity, but I don't think 700 years under vicious, incompetent exctractive institutions followed by 60 years of totalitarianism prepared them for flourishing in the modern economic climate without a substantial period of transition.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 04:45:28 PM
You specifically said that this part of the world under-produced culturally.  Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians are perfectly capable of economic and cultural productivity, but I don't think 700 years under vicious, incompetent exctractive institutions followed by 60 years of totalitarianism prepared them for flourishing in the modern economic climate without a substantial period of transition.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 04:58:49 PM
Spain?  Portugal?  Sicily?  The Ottoman Empire?  There isn't some kind of universal teleological drive towards superior government.  The Ostrogoths weren't better administrators than the Romans, they were just better at killing people and arrived on the map at the right time.  Ditto for the Manchus v. Ming, the Ottomans v. everyone, the Arabs v. Romans and Persians, etc...

Romanov Russia was capable of mustering a huge amount of resources at it's behest, and the upper class was extremely comfortable and built upon the ruthless exploitation of it's serfs.  After Peter, you even had an impressive talent pool of government and military officials that would have even been more impressive if Peter's successors hadn't fucked up the Table of Ranks.  There wasn't a need for dramatic reform until the mid-19th Century, but there was just never the Peter to do it.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 04:58:49 PM
The Ostrogoths weren't better administrators than the Romans, they were just better at killing people and arrived on the map at the right time. 

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 28, 2014, 05:46:11 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 04:58:49 PM
The Ostrogoths weren't better administrators than the Romans, they were just better at killing people and arrived on the map at the right time. 

?
The Ostrogoths were allies (if uneasy ones) of the Eastern Empire, and defeated Odoacer, not Rome.
Theoderic was an excellent administrator - easily the best that Roman Italy had in over a century, even if we discount Cassiodorus' bias.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 28, 2014, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
I have to side with Spellus on this one. :(

You think to be considered culturally literate one has to know who Tsetsefly was? 

I don't know anything about those three guys either.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 05:41:59 PM
So is your contention that competition makes efficient government?

QuoteOr is it climate?

QuoteIf so, why does isolated, treeless Iceland have a thousand year history of social stability , good governance and relative prosperity?

Quote
Yes, although there is competition everywhere, including within the state.

QuoteI think agricultural yield of a region is linked to climate which is linked to population density. Population density is a key component of long term development.

QuoteI am not up on Icelandic history, but I was under the impression it was a poor country until recent times. Also, an island in the middle of nowhere with all the fishing to yourself kind of takes the place of agriculture, right?

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 06:03:07 PM
Then why didn't the chaos of Africa of the 90s breed competent governments? 

Quote from: Queequeg on January 28, 2014, 06:03:07 PM

Quote
Yes, although there is competition everywhere, including within the state.

Then why didn't the chaos of Africa of the 90s breed competent governments? 

QuoteI think agricultural yield of a region is linked to climate which is linked to population density. Population density is a key component of long term development.

Not sure.  Certain parts of the world have had long-term population density but stilted culturally and economically.  Alternatively, Northern Europe lacks population density but overproduces culturally and economically. 

QuoteI am not up on Icelandic history, but I was under the impression it was a poor country until recent times. Also, an island in the middle of nowhere with all the fishing to yourself kind of takes the place of agriculture, right?

The Danes were kind of dicks, and there was a period of famine after a volcano.  I think it's always been pretty okay, though.

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 28, 2014, 10:19:12 PM
Dorsey, why is the first step in your (all-over-the-place) analysis "isolate Eurasia"?  Some inherent attribute due to its "axis"?

And not to repeat Spellus, but you have heard of the Ukraine being considered "the breadbasket" of the region, haven't you?  Comparable to, oh, those other unfortunate, "destined" to lag behind places in North America that produce enormous quantities of cereal grains, far in excess of any of those climactically-blessed places like France, England, um....

You really ought to look up "teleological": it's a word and a concept that's been pretty important among those of us living in cultures that have stood out over the years...

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2014, 10:43:36 PM
Africa is isolated from Eurasia? :huh:

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 10:45:15 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2014, 10:43:36 PM
Africa is isolated from Eurasia? :huh:

:secret:

Yes. There is the Sahara Desert, and the Sinai Peninsula.

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2014, 10:46:45 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 10:45:15 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2014, 10:43:36 PM
Africa is isolated from Eurasia? :huh:

:secret:

Yes. There is the Sahara Desert, and the Sinai Peninsula.

The Sahara desert doesn't isolate North Africa. I also think you would be hard pressed to point out the Sinai as isolating North Africa throughout history. To cite myself: :mellow:

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2014, 10:53:32 PM
Yes because history has shown that North Africa has not had more than minimal contact with Eurasia. To quote Tamas: :rolleyes:

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 10:42:49 PM
I'm aware that the area has been considered a breakbasket. I'm not an expert on agricultural production, but again, it isn't just about what is happening in a specific place--in the general area, production is less. And for what its worth, the Ukraine is sparsely populated in comparison to Western Europe.

Quote from: Barrister on January 28, 2014, 11:24:24 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 10:42:49 PM
I'm aware that the area has been considered a breakbasket. I'm not an expert on agricultural production, but again, it isn't just about what is happening in a specific place--in the general area, production is less. And for what its worth, the Ukraine is sparsely populated in comparison to Western Europe.

There are 45,000,000 people living in Ukraine. :mellow:

Quote from: Barrister on January 28, 2014, 11:24:24 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 28, 2014, 10:42:49 PM
I'm aware that the area has been considered a breakbasket. I'm not an expert on agricultural production, but again, it isn't just about what is happening in a specific place--in the general area, production is less. And for what its worth, the Ukraine is sparsely populated in comparison to Western Europe.

There are 45,000,000 people living in Ukraine. :mellow:

Quote from: Neil on January 28, 2014, 11:05:59 PM
Subsaharan Africa wasn't part of the Mediterranean world, but to act like they didn't have frequent contact with Eurasia is bizarre and impossible to justify.

Quote from: derspiess on January 28, 2014, 10:54:45 AM

Quote from: DGuller on January 27, 2014, 06:05:45 PM
I still don't your line of argument here. 

Of course not.

QuoteJust because people get to learn two disparate languages due to living in a bilingual environment doesn't in any way connect these two languages.  People are capable of understanding multiple languages at the same time.

Okay, forget the bilingual part.  I'm just saying that geographical proximity combined with a certain degree of similarity between two languages can make them somewhat mutually intelligible.

I think I gave the example where Portuguese and Spanish have a decent bit of similarity but despite that similarity Portuguese sometimes sounds like gibberish to me.  Yet my wife, who lived close to Brazil for a good portion of her life (and was therefore exposed to Brazilian media) can understand pretty much everything a Portuguese speaker says.

QuoteRussian poetry-lover 'stabs' prose champion

A drunken row over the merits of literary forms in Russia ended in a poetry-lover stabbing a champion of prose to death, investigators say.

A 53-year-old man in Irbit, a town in the Sverdlovsk region of the Urals, has been charged with the murder of another man, 67, said to have been a friend.

They were drinking spirits in the friend's flat when he reportedly said only prose was "real literature".

The accused, a former teacher, allegedly stabbed him before fleeing.

Police found him hiding at an acquaintance's house in a nearby village.

According to a local police report, the accused has confessed to the murder and faces a sentence of up to 15 years in prison.

The victim of the attack, which took place on 20 January, had had pieces of his own prose published in a local newspaper.

He was described as someone who had led an "anti-social lifestyle and abused spirits".

The alleged killer had apparently been lodging with him for several months before the fatal dispute.

In September, in the south Russian town of Rostov-on-Don, a reported argument about the philosopher Immanuel Kant ended in an air pistol being fired and one man being injured.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 29, 2014, 01:12:26 AMthe bulk of the continent severely lagged before colonialization.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 29, 2014, 01:12:26 AM

Quote from: Neil on January 28, 2014, 11:05:59 PM
Subsaharan Africa wasn't part of the Mediterranean world, but to act like they didn't have frequent contact with Eurasia is bizarre and impossible to justify.

Parts of it did, most of it didn't.

We can start a big discussion into why a bunch of technological ideas were very late in taking hold throughout Africa, but whether it was relative isolation (what I would argue) or something else, the bulk of the continent severely lagged before colonialization.

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 29, 2014, 05:10:14 PM
Like how in EU2 I'd go full narrowminded so I could build cities throughout Siberia and the Pacific coast and end up hopelessly behind in tech. :(

Quote from: Neil on January 29, 2014, 05:55:38 PM

The coast of east Africa was pretty well-known by all kinds of mariners in the Indian Ocean.  But it wasn't run over by the continental conquerors that bound Eurasia together (not that they would have been able to engage in a long campaign of conquest in Africa anyways).  Not isolated, but distant.

Quote from: Iormlund on January 29, 2014, 05:59:25 PM

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 29, 2014, 05:10:14 PM
Like how in EU2 I'd go full narrowminded so I could build cities throughout Siberia and the Pacific coast and end up hopelessly behind in tech. :(

Yeah, but all that manpower. You ended up with 2 million soldiers or something like that.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 30, 2014, 10:37:43 AM

Quote from: Iormlund on January 29, 2014, 05:59:25 PM

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 29, 2014, 05:10:14 PM
Like how in EU2 I'd go full narrowminded so I could build cities throughout Siberia and the Pacific coast and end up hopelessly behind in tech. :(

Yeah, but all that manpower. You ended up with 2 million soldiers or something like that.

Paradox clearly didn't fully grasp that the Atlantic Ocean keeps Western Europe abnormally warm for the latitude, allowing for higher populations (and manpower) than the more distant parts of eurasia at similar latitudes. Paradox isn't the only one struggling to grasp this.  :)

Quote from: alfred russel on January 30, 2014, 10:34:42 AM

Quote from: Neil on January 29, 2014, 05:55:38 PM

The coast of east Africa was pretty well-known by all kinds of mariners in the Indian Ocean.  But it wasn't run over by the continental conquerors that bound Eurasia together (not that they would have been able to engage in a long campaign of conquest in Africa anyways).  Not isolated, but distant.

If large parts of sub saharan africa are so distant they don't have writing or the wheel until colonialization, that is fairly isolated.

Quote from: Neil on January 31, 2014, 11:29:26 AM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 30, 2014, 10:34:42 AM

Quote from: Neil on January 29, 2014, 05:55:38 PM

The coast of east Africa was pretty well-known by all kinds of mariners in the Indian Ocean.  But it wasn't run over by the continental conquerors that bound Eurasia together (not that they would have been able to engage in a long campaign of conquest in Africa anyways).  Not isolated, but distant.

If large parts of sub saharan africa are so distant they don't have writing or the wheel until colonialization, that is fairly isolated.

I think you have a weird picture of early Africa in your head.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 31, 2014, 12:48:53 PM

Quote from: Neil on January 31, 2014, 11:29:26 AM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 30, 2014, 10:34:42 AM

Quote from: Neil on January 29, 2014, 05:55:38 PM

The coast of east Africa was pretty well-known by all kinds of mariners in the Indian Ocean.  But it wasn't run over by the continental conquerors that bound Eurasia together (not that they would have been able to engage in a long campaign of conquest in Africa anyways).  Not isolated, but distant.

If large parts of sub saharan africa are so distant they don't have writing or the wheel until colonialization, that is fairly isolated.

I think you have a weird picture of early Africa in your head.

You should read up a bit on sub saharan african history. You can start with this article, which has the first heading titled "historical isolation".

http://www.essential-humanities.net/world-history/sub-saharan-africa/

;)

Quote from: Neil on January 31, 2014, 02:47:04 PM
Your source isn't very good, and your reading of it doesn't help.  If you did anything more than scan for the word 'isolation', you'd see that even your source goes on to talk about extensive trade on the east coast of Africa across the Indian Ocean.

QuoteThe wheel was barely used in Sub-Saharan Africa into the 19th century, its adoption only occurring after the arrival of Europeans as they explored the region and then moved to exploit it. Sudan, Somalia, and Ethiopia were the only African countries to innovate systems of writing; only Ethiopia invented the plow.

Quote from: garbon on January 31, 2014, 03:19:06 PM
Here's one of the articles that wheel page cites.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1159117?uid=3739832&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21103367974747

Points out interactions with cultures with wheels (and suggest widespread knowledge) - so lack of wheel use isn't because of "isolation."

QuoteAnimal power for cultivation and wheeled transport in sub-Saharan Africa
Ethiopia, together with a few neighbouring parts of the Horn of Africa, is exceptional in sub-Saharan Africa,
since farmers have been using animal power for tillage for thousands of years. However, in most sub-Saharan
African countries, animal traction for tillage and wheeled transport was introduced during the colonial period.
The process of introduction and adaptation is still continuing.

There are various factors that may be responsible for the late adoption of plows in sub-Saharan Africa. In much
of the continent, different tribal groups have specialised in animal-rearing and in crop production. Thus many
crop-growing farmers did not own potential work animals. Moreover, many traditional farming systems have
been based on bush-fallow rotations. The bush is cut down and burned, and seeds or tubers planted in the
cleared area. There is no need to till the land with a plow. In any case this would be difficult since the soil is full
of roots. Seeds can be scattered or planted in small pockets, for which a simple digging implement is
appropriate. In farming systems with long periods of bush fallow, weeds do not present major problems.
Provided the fallow periods are long, such systems can be quite productive in terms of yield per unit of human
labour. It is only when human population pressures necessitate short fallow periods, that it becomes justified to
clear the land of roots and stumps and to plow. Thus, in much of sub-Saharan Africa, the necessary social,
environmental and agricultural conditions to favour the use of plows have not really existed. Indeed, there are
still parts of Africa where the plow is not really economically justified. The failure of animal traction to spread
into some semi-humid areas in recent decades, is partly explained by the lack of the appropriate preconditions
(Starkey, 1986a and 1992; Pingali, Bigot and Binswanger, 1987).

Another important constraint on the spread of the plow in precolonial times was the presence of tsetse flies and
trypanosomiasis in virtually all lowland areas. The relatively low human populations that obtained almost
everywhere in Africa meant that hunting pressure on wild animal vectors was insufficient to eliminate
reservoirs of trypanosomiases. Pastoral cattle that can survive when well-fed or moved regularly by expert
herders have a much accelerated death rate from disease when subjected to work-stress (Blench 1987). It is
possible that both wheeled vehicles and plows were introduced experimentally in prehistory, but failed due to
disease constraints. Increased human population in the colonial era following improved health-care both
allowed major clearance of regions of bush and eliminated large populations of tsetse vectors. This helped to
make animal traction a viable proposition in many areas.

African ports and islands
Traders and colonial powers had contact with Africa's offshore islands and ports, before the hinterland was
colonised. In most countries, the use of animal-powered wheeled transport was first introduced in coastal and
river ports in the seventeenth, eighteenth or nineteenth centuries (Law 1980). In a few cases where social,
economic and ecological conditions proved favourable, the use of animal-powered transport gradually spread
from the coastal region, through the activities of traders, settlers, missionaries and the administering authorities.
Animal-drawn cart technology spread inland in South Africa (and neighbouring territories), French West Africa
(from Saint Louis) and in East Africa. However, with the notable exception of South Africa (and nearby
countries), the introduction of animal power for agriculture was largely a twentieth century phenomenon.

Quote from: garbon on January 31, 2014, 04:35:20 PM
The article points out that contrary to your claims - many such technologies were not widespread until the 20th century. That is quite some time after initial contact with Europeans.

Odd that you used Europe as the example in not overstating connections given that you were the one divided contact in to precolonial and not. :D

Besides, as that article also notes, adopting technology isn't that important if population doesn't need / you aren't trying to exploit every last resource (as Europeans did in colonial Africa). I don't think you can use that then to prove isolation as it could just point to it not being considered important at the time.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 31, 2014, 04:51:01 PM
People have a general interest in reducing backbreaking labor, increasing food production, reducing child mortality, etc. I find it hard to believe the technologies just weren't important. If they weren't, the population of Africa wouldn't explode after colonialization, and technologies would not spread into regions that Europeans did not come in force.

Quote from: Queequeg on January 31, 2014, 04:34:24 PM
AR, I really think you'd enjoy Acemoglu's Why Nations Fail.  Acemoglu's one of the hottest, most cited economists around, and it makes some really interesting contrasts with the pseudo-Diamondy stuff you are talking about.  Also, he's an ethnic Armenian from Turkey.  :wub:

Quote from: garbon on January 31, 2014, 04:58:16 PM
I don't think you are understanding my posts or the articles I posted* - so I think I'm done.

*as well as the fact that I disagreed with your unified theory on development from the start so this tangent was always just a bit of amusement.

Quote from: Neil on January 31, 2014, 05:34:29 PM
I don't think that anything fruitful is likely to come out of this discussion.

Quote
Leaked Ukraine recording reveals US exasperation with EU

By Roman Olearchyk in Kiev and Neil Buckley in London


The White House pointed the finger at Moscow after leaked recordings of its top diplomats discussing Ukraine emerged on Thursday in an episode that threatens to embarrass Washington and inject fresh tension into already-strained relations with Russia.

In an audio clip posted on YouTube, voices resembling those of Victoria Nuland, a US assistant secretary of state, and Geoffrey Pyatt, ambassador to Ukraine, are heard talking by telephone about how to resolve the stand-off in Kiev after two months of anti-government protests.

In apparent frustration with the EU – which has failed to join the US in threatening sanctions against Ukraine's leaders if they violently crush the protests – the voice resembling Ms Nuland at one point exclaims "F**k the EU".

The two voices suggest Arseny Yatseniuk, an opposition leader and former foreign minister, should be in a new government in Kiev. But Vitali Klitschko, a former heavyweight boxer identified as "top dog" among opposition leaders, is described as inexperienced and needing to "do his political homework".

The voice resembling Ms Nuland refers to the two men as "Yats" and "Klitsch".

The authenticity or otherwise of the recording could not be immediately confirmed. But a White House spokesman blamed Moscow. "The video was first noted and tweeted out by the Russian government. I think it says something about Russia's role," said Jay Carney, suggesting it was an old-fashioned dirty-tricks campaign with a new-media twist.

Jennifer Psaki, a State department spokeswoman, said the incident represented a "new low in Russian tradecraft".

Moscow has for weeks accused the west of pulling the strings behind a Ukraine protest movement that threatens to unseat the country's Russia-friendly president, Viktor Yanukovich – an allegation that Washington and Brussels have roundly rejected.

The recordings appeared to coincide with a stepped-up Kremlin public relations offensive. Sergei Glaziev, an adviser to President Vladimir Putin, told Kommersant Ukraine newspaper on Thursday that the US was "spending $20m a week" on financing Ukraine's opposition. This included providing weapons, he said.

Mr Glaziev repeated comments he made last week suggesting Mr Yanukovich should use force to end an "attempted coup" in Ukraine. The Putin adviser also reiterated Moscow's call to join three-way talks on future trade and economic relations with Ukraine.

The EU has declined that invitation, but has worked with the US in recent days to mediate a potential compromise in Ukraine including a new technocratic government led by opposition figures, and constitutional changes reducing the president's powers.

The alleged US diplomatic conversation may have been leaked in an attempt to undermine those efforts. It came while Ms Nuland was in Kiev on Thursday for talks with Mr Yanukovich.

Another audio clip later appeared on YouTube of a conversation apparently between Helga Schmid, deputy secretary-general of the EU's External Action Service (EAS), talking to the EU ambassador to Ukraine. The two voices bemoan how the EU is seen by the US as "soft" on Ukraine.

"It's disturbing and smells like Belarus, when sensitive conversations of high-level diplomats are secretively recorded and revealed," said one western diplomat working in Kiev, referring to Ukraine's autocratic ex-Soviet neighbour. "They knew this would be an issue of high confrontation . . . it's an attempt to split the unity of the west and opposition."

The recorded conversation between the US diplomats appears to have taken place after Mr Yanukovich offered Mr Yatseniuk and Mr Klitschko top jobs in a new government on January 25, though they have so far turned them down.

"The Klitschko piece is obviously the most complicated electron here," a voice resembling Mr Pyatt is heard saying. The two conclude that Mr Yatseniuk, who has also served as economy minister, is better equipped for government.

The voice resembling Ms Nuland refers to the prospect of UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon sending an envoy to Ukraine to "help glue this thing", adding: "And you know, f**k the EU."

The male voice replies: "Exactly . . . And I think we got to do something to make it stick together, because you can be sure that if it does start to gain altitude the Russians will be working behind the scenes to torpedo it."

Additional reporting by Geoff Dyer in Washington

Quote from: alfred russel on January 30, 2014, 10:34:42 AM

Quote from: Neil on January 29, 2014, 05:55:38 PM

The coast of east Africa was pretty well-known by all kinds of mariners in the Indian Ocean.  But it wasn't run over by the continental conquerors that bound Eurasia together (not that they would have been able to engage in a long campaign of conquest in Africa anyways).  Not isolated, but distant.

If large parts of sub saharan africa are so distant they don't have writing or the wheel until colonialization, that is fairly isolated.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 06, 2014, 03:30:59 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on January 30, 2014, 10:34:42 AM

Quote from: Neil on January 29, 2014, 05:55:38 PM

The coast of east Africa was pretty well-known by all kinds of mariners in the Indian Ocean.  But it wasn't run over by the continental conquerors that bound Eurasia together (not that they would have been able to engage in a long campaign of conquest in Africa anyways).  Not isolated, but distant.

If large parts of sub saharan africa are so distant they don't have writing or the wheel until colonialization, that is fairly isolated.

Sub-Saharan Africa made a very early transition straight from the Neolithic to the Iron Age, they weren't that far behind.

Quote from: Tamas on February 18, 2014, 08:48:33 AM
Round 2 has begun!

Governing party's HQ ransacked, protesters getting into Parliament, beating up communist MPs, both side accusing the other of using firearms, and allegedly pro-government protesters joining the police, next escalation step toward civil war seems well under way.

Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2014, 09:08:39 AM

Quote from: Tamas on February 18, 2014, 08:48:33 AM
Round 2 has begun!

Governing party's HQ ransacked, protesters getting into Parliament, beating up communist MPs, both side accusing the other of using firearms, and allegedly pro-government protesters joining the police, next escalation step toward civil war seems well under way.

How soon until the Russian Army arrives?

QuoteAt least four reported dead, more than 100 injured as violent clashes break out near Ukraine's parliament (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)

Open warfare broke out on the streets of Kyiv today, with at least four persons reportedly killed and more than 100 people injured.

The death toll is likely to increase, as opposition leader Yuriy Lutsenko reported that he has seen at least 10 corpses today. There was no official confirmation of his estimate, however.

Dr. Olga Bogomolets, a physician, told the Kyiv Post at 3:30 p.m. today that three protesters had been shot to death while dozens more were injured, including many with serious wounds.

The Emergencies Ministry reported a fourth casualty, that of an employee for the ruling pro-presidential Party of Regions, apparently killed after protesters stormed the party office on Lypska Street.

Oleh Musiy, the medical director for the anti-government protesters, said that one victim died from a gunshot wound to the head while two others died from head injuries. The three slain protesters were taken to the House of Officers on Hrushevskoho Street.

One man is tentatively identified as Serhiy Didych, a member of a local city council in western Ukraine's Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast. Another is identified as Volodymyr Yuriyovych Kishuk of Zaporyzhia in southeastern Ukraine. The third fatal victim had not ben identified as of 5:30 pm.

The four deaths came amid renewed violent clashes that pit thousands of police and protesters against each other at several locations near Ukraine's parliament building in Kyiv.

When added to the five protesters killed in January, the death toll in the anti-government EuroMaidan protests that began on Nov. 21 has now reached nine persons.

Police said today that at least 37 police officers were injured, but that number could not be confirmed by other sources. The Institute of Mass Information also said that at least 15 journalists covering the violence were attacked by police.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 18, 2014, 09:55:25 AM
I seriously doubt Russian troops are going to get involved.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 18, 2014, 09:55:25 AM
I seriously doubt Russian troops are going to get involved.

Quote from: DGuller on February 18, 2014, 12:31:39 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 18, 2014, 09:55:25 AM
I seriously doubt Russian troops are going to get involved.

I doubt that they won't.  The Russians are already laying the groundwork for it.  The full-scale invasion of Ukraine is unlikely, but if Georgia example of dismemberment is anything to go by, there will be military involved.

Quote from: DGuller on February 18, 2014, 12:31:39 PM
I doubt that they won't.  The Russians are already laying the groundwork for it.  The full-scale invasion of Ukraine is unlikely, but if Georgia example of dismemberment is anything to go by, there will be military involved.

Quote from: Neil on February 18, 2014, 01:49:09 PM
Are there any consequences to the Russians occupying the Ukraine?

Quote from: Malthus on February 18, 2014, 09:43:28 AM

Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2014, 09:08:39 AM

Quote from: Tamas on February 18, 2014, 08:48:33 AM
Round 2 has begun!

Governing party's HQ ransacked, protesters getting into Parliament, beating up communist MPs, both side accusing the other of using firearms, and allegedly pro-government protesters joining the police, next escalation step toward civil war seems well under way.

How soon until the Russian Army arrives?

When is the closing ceremonies at the Olympics?

Quote from: Barrister on February 18, 2014, 02:02:41 PMYou sure about that?

The Russian invasion of Georgia took place during the 2008 Beijing Games...

Quote from: Jacob on February 18, 2014, 02:03:43 PM

Quote from: Barrister on February 18, 2014, 02:02:41 PMYou sure about that?

The Russian invasion of Georgia took place during the 2008 Beijing Games...

I expect Putin was less concerned about taking focus away from the Beijing Games than the Sochi ones.

Quote from: Barrister on February 18, 2014, 02:08:27 PMNo, it was more that with the world's attention captured by the games, other news captures less international attention.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 18, 2014, 02:14:34 PM
Wait a minute: are you guys talking about the war Georgia started?  :hmm:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 18, 2014, 02:22:19 PM
I'm having trouble making sense of that.

Quote from: Jacob on February 18, 2014, 02:46:52 PM
I'm saying that it transpires that Russia sends tanks into the Ukraine, Russia will claim that the Ukraine started it one way or the other.

Quote from: Barrister on February 18, 2014, 02:02:41 PM

Quote from: Malthus on February 18, 2014, 09:43:28 AM

Quote from: Valmy on February 18, 2014, 09:08:39 AM

Quote from: Tamas on February 18, 2014, 08:48:33 AM
Round 2 has begun!

Governing party's HQ ransacked, protesters getting into Parliament, beating up communist MPs, both side accusing the other of using firearms, and allegedly pro-government protesters joining the police, next escalation step toward civil war seems well under way.

How soon until the Russian Army arrives?

When is the closing ceremonies at the Olympics?

You sure about that?

The Russian invasion of Georgia took place during the 2008 Beijing Games...

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 18, 2014, 03:48:27 PM
I'm thinking partition might not be such a terrible solution.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 18, 2014, 01:10:59 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 18, 2014, 12:31:39 PM
I doubt that they won't.  The Russians are already laying the groundwork for it.  The full-scale invasion of Ukraine is unlikely, but if Georgia example of dismemberment is anything to go by, there will be military involved.

In the Georgian case Russia got the right to station "peacekeepers" in Abkhazia as a quid pro quo for folding on Serbia.

Zero chance of Russian tanks rolling into Kiev.

Quote from: Maximus on February 18, 2014, 04:14:58 PM
I doubt Ukraine lacks the military power to crush this if they went all out.

Quote from: Jacob on February 18, 2014, 04:17:30 PM
The question may be whether the Ukrainian military would all out crush the protestors if ordered to. The Russian military would likely be more reliable in this situation.

Quote from: Syt on February 18, 2014, 04:19:33 PM
Riots reported from other cities (Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk). State media ignore the subject; a TV station critical of the government has been switched off all day.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 18, 2014, 04:21:36 PM
Repost:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_LFrMcoEm4&feature=share

Quote from: Jacob on February 18, 2014, 04:17:30 PM

Quote from: Maximus on February 18, 2014, 04:14:58 PM
I doubt Ukraine lacks the military power to crush this if they went all out.

The question may be whether the Ukrainian military would all out crush the protestors if ordered to. The Russian military would likely be more reliable in this situation.

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 18, 2014, 05:38:09 PM
I have officially put my boner on 48 hour alert.

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 18, 2014, 05:38:09 PM
I have officially put my boner on 48 hour alert.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 18, 2014, 05:40:16 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 18, 2014, 05:38:09 PM
I have officially put my boner on 48 hour alert.

You should just watch more curling

Quote from: DGuller on February 18, 2014, 11:31:19 PM
I have a sinking feeling that we're now watching the beginning of a long epic, where the evil is on initially victorious march, and the good guys are cluelessly stumbling around and not even realizing they're in a fight.

Quote from: DGuller on February 18, 2014, 11:31:19 PM
I have a sinking feeling that we're now watching the beginning of a long epic, where the evil is on initially victorious march, and the good guys are cluelessly stumbling around and not even realizing they're in a fight.

QuoteUkraine crisis: Renewed Kiev assault on protesters

Police in the Ukrainian capital Kiev have launched a fresh attack on anti-government protesters as the death toll in renewed clashes has climbed to 25.

The new attempt to uproot the protest stronghold came as President Yanukovych blamed opposition leaders for the worst violence in months of unrest.

After failed overnight talks, he urged them to distance themselves from radical forces.

Activists say the violence has been stoked by the authorities.

Police launched their latest assault on Independence Square, also known as the Maidan, shortly after 04:00 local time (02:00 GMT). Several tents were set ablaze, and water cannon was later used.

A BBC correspondent said police had taken control of a corner of the square for the first time since December.

The protests began in late November, when President Viktor Yanukovych rejected a landmark association and trade deal with the EU in favour of closer ties with Russia.

Tensions had begun to subside as recently as Monday, as protesters ended their occupation of government buildings in return for an amnesty against prosecution.

But violence erupted outside parliament on Tuesday morning as government supporters blocked opposition attempts to scale back the president's constitutional powers. Correspondents say it was unclear what sparked the clashes, with each side blaming the other.

Fighting spread to surrounding streets and police launched a first attack on Independence Square on Tuesday evening.

In a statement, the health ministry said on Wednesday the number of dead on both sides had risen to 25. Nine of those killed were police, the interior ministry says. A journalist has also died.

Hundreds of people have been treated in hospital for injuries and there are fears the number of deaths could rise still further.As police gained ground in the Maidan, stones and petrol bombs were met with tear gas.

The protesters tried to hold their defence lines, burning tyres on the barricades and more anti-government activists were said to be on their way to join the camp.

A trade union building where many protesters had been sheltering was set alight and people could be seen climbing down the walls to escape the flames.

There were reports of unrest breaking out elsewhere in Ukraine, including the western cities of Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk and Ternopil.
'Island of freedom'

Opposition leaders Vitaly Klitschko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk met President Viktor Yanukovych for late night talks but failed to come to an agreement.

In a statement on Wednesday morning, President Yanukovych said: "The opposition leaders have disregarded the principle of democracy according to which one obtains power not on the streets or maidans - but through elections."

"They have crossed the line by calling for people to take up arms," he said, warning that those responsible for violence would face the law.

But the president added that there was a "better and more effective way" to solve the crisis - through dialogue and compromise.

"It is not too late to stop the conflict," he said.

Security forces had given the protesters a deadline of 18:00 on Tuesday (16:00 GMT) to leave the square, the scene of a mostly peaceful protest camp since November.

When the deadline expired, riot police advanced with an armoured vehicle, dismantling barricades and firing stun grenades and water cannon.

Protesters have been resisting, throwing missiles from behind piles of burning tyres.

In speeches from the main stage through the night, protest leaders urged people already on the Maidan to stand firm, and called on Ukrainians elsewhere to come to the square.

"This is an island of freedom and we will defend it," said Vitaly Klitschko, the leader of the Udar (Punch) party.

Mr Yatsenyuk, who heads the Fatherland party, appealed to President Yanukovych to "stop the bloodshed and call a truce".

He had earlier accused the president of blocking attempts to reform the constitution in parliament.

But MPs who support the president said the proposals had not been thoroughly discussed, and that more time was needed.

There has been widespread international alarm at the bloodshed in Kiev.

   * UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has appealed for restraint and "immediate renewal of genuine dialogue"
   * EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton urged Ukraine's leaders to address the "root causes of the crisis"
   * Russia's foreign ministry blamed the clashes on the "conniving politics of Western politicians and European bodies"

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2014, 09:35:40 AM
I asked about regional recruitment earlier because I'm assuming loyalties would shake down on the east-west split.

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 19, 2014, 09:32:30 AM
Time to armor up my RV to run the nuclear ravaged roads of America.

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 19, 2014, 09:32:30 AM
Time to armor up my RV to run the nuclear ravaged roads of America.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 19, 2014, 08:24:25 AM
The escalation: BHL is there!

Quote from: KRonn on February 19, 2014, 10:21:42 AM
I haven't read much of the thread but I'm assuming that Putin and his minions would really want Ukraine back into the Russian nation, also making it a lot easier to regain some of the other nations that left. Does it seem that Putin and his minions are pushing, surreptitiously or even overtly, to get Ukraine back into Russia? Or other republics? At least slowly starting that process in Ukraine even though it may not seem like it right now? If so or if people think that's the case then that's more reason for the protests to intensify.

I also wonder if maybe Ukraine would split into two nations, one a satellite of Russia and the other independent.

Quote from: The Brain on February 19, 2014, 12:39:53 PM
Imputiny?

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 12:37:42 PM

Quote from: KRonn on February 19, 2014, 10:21:42 AM
I haven't read much of the thread but I'm assuming that Putin and his minions would really want Ukraine back into the Russian nation, also making it a lot easier to regain some of the other nations that left. Does it seem that Putin and his minions are pushing, surreptitiously or even overtly, to get Ukraine back into Russia? Or other republics? At least slowly starting that process in Ukraine even though it may not seem like it right now? If so or if people think that's the case then that's more reason for the protests to intensify.

I also wonder if maybe Ukraine would split into two nations, one a satellite of Russia and the other independent.

I don't think Putin it looking to physically extend Russia's borders.  They know how difficult that is to do since WWII.

Putin's MO however is to create weak client states where Russia can act with impunity.

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 12:48:47 PM
Doesn't it seem like for all involved the best outcome (among all that are plausible at this point) is for the country to split in two?

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
it has nothing to do with the fact that the country's president made a play to be a dictator and Russia's satellite.

Quote from: alfred russel on February 19, 2014, 12:53:50 PM
The problem with annexing Ukraine is that I doubt the western Ukraine would be possible without some serious authoritarianism from Moscow--see the leveling of Grozny for example.

A partial annexation of the east might be possible, but would Russia want that? That would leave a west looking Western Ukraine, and possibly bringing the EU (and Nato?) right to Russia's border in a big way (I know there are borders now).

A weak client state keeping its current borders may be the preferred outcome for Russia.

Quote from: Maximus on February 19, 2014, 12:57:50 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
it has nothing to do with the fact that the country's president made a play to be a dictator and Russia's satellite.

Does the eastern part of the country see this as a problem though? Honest question. The way it is portrayed in the media they don't.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
That's definitely what Russians want you to think.  Yeah, it's the west that can't live with the east, it has nothing to do with the fact that the country's president made a play to be a dictator and Russia's satellite.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:00:37 PM
I don't think the east is as solidly in the Yanukovich camp as it is portrayed.

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 01:04:56 PM
Have the East split away as East Ukraine and either become a Russian satellite or part of the Russian Federation-- that's what most people there seem to want, isn't it?

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 01:05:40 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:00:37 PM
I don't think the east is as solidly in the Yanukovich camp as it is portrayed.

Meh, you also said hockey didnt much matter to Russians.  You lost of a lot of cred there.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:07:33 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 01:05:40 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:00:37 PM
I don't think the east is as solidly in the Yanukovich camp as it is portrayed.

Meh, you also said hockey didnt much matter to Russians.  You lost of a lot of cred there.

I said it wouldn't make or break their Olympics.

QuoteIn staunchly pro-European western Ukraine, opponents of Yanukovich declared political autonomy after seizing regional administrative buildings in Lviv overnight and forcing police to surrender.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:00:37 PM
I don't think the east is as solidly in the Yanukovich camp as it is portrayed.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2014, 01:20:59 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:00:37 PM
I don't think the east is as solidly in the Yanukovich camp as it is portrayed.

There was an electoral map someone posted earlier that showed a pretty strong cleavage.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 01:33:43 PM
DG, what do you think of the NationalGeographic article I posted?

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 01:04:56 PM
Have the East split away as East Ukraine and either become a Russian satellite or part of the Russian Federation-- that's what most people there seem to want, isn't it?

I think that's a mighty strong assumption.

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 01:35:45 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 01:33:43 PM
DG, what do you think of the NationalGeographic article I posted?

Pretty superficial runthrough of Ukrainian history.

Quote from: Queequeg on February 19, 2014, 01:37:50 PM
Holy Fuck. Oh my God. This is going to get so much worse.

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 01:40:46 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:06:50 PM

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 01:04:56 PM
Have the East split away as East Ukraine and either become a Russian satellite or part of the Russian Federation-- that's what most people there seem to want, isn't it?

I think that's a mighty strong assumption.

I'll admit I have very limited knowledge on the subject-- just going by what I've gathered from the news & other sources over the past few years.  Do you know of any legit opinion polls or anything that disprove the notion that the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine (and roughly half the population) is pro-Russia?

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 01:40:46 PM
I'll admit I have very limited knowledge on the subject-- just going by what I've gathered from the news & other sources over the past few years.  Do you know of any legit opinion polls or anything that disprove the notion that the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine (and roughly half the population) is pro-Russia?

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 01:35:45 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 01:33:43 PM
DG, what do you think of the NationalGeographic article I posted?

Pretty superficial runthrough of Ukrainian history.

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 12:37:42 PM
I don't think Putin it looking to physically extend Russia's borders.  They know how difficult that is to do since WWII.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:43:20 PM
Yeah.  :( It's pretty clear that Yanukovich went all-in for the military solution to the problem.  It seems like large-scale military defections are the only realistic hope for the protesters.

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 19, 2014, 01:58:21 PM
With the exception of Israel, has that happened at all since WWII, disputed territories notwithstanding?

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 01:58:32 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:43:20 PM
Yeah.  :( It's pretty clear that Yanukovich went all-in for the military solution to the problem.  It seems like large-scale military defections are the only realistic hope for the protesters.

Has he gotten the military involved yet, or is he still using the Berkut-type guys for his "anti-terrorist operations"?

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 12:59:45 PM
The problem with the last option is that the weak client state will still have Lviv to contend with.  It took even Stalin years to subjugate the area.  A city like Lviv is exactly what you don't want to own if your country's government is teetering on the edge of losing legitimacy.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 01:45:42 PM

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 01:40:46 PM
I'll admit I have very limited knowledge on the subject-- just going by what I've gathered from the news & other sources over the past few years.  Do you know of any legit opinion polls or anything that disprove the notion that the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine (and roughly half the population) is pro-Russia?

You are falling into the Kremlin's trap and conflating multiple different concepts.  The eastern part is definitely more pro-Russia than the western part, but to make a leap of faith that they would favor the breakup of the country and being effectively absorbed into Russia is a stretch.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2014, 02:01:15 PM

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 19, 2014, 01:58:21 PM
With the exception of Israel, has that happened at all since WWII, disputed territories notwithstanding?

East Timor, Hong Kong

I think Morocco annexed Mauritania, didn't it?

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 02:01:42 PM
As far as I can tell, not yet, but he declared that the army is preparing for the "anti-terrorist" campaign, and the army chief was replaced just now.

Quote from: Razgovory on February 19, 2014, 02:35:03 PM
South Vietnam, Goa, East Germany and South Yemen as well

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2014, 02:01:15 PM

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 19, 2014, 01:58:21 PM
With the exception of Israel, has that happened at all since WWII, disputed territories notwithstanding?

East Timor, Hong Kong

I think Morocco annexed Mauritania, didn't it?

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 19, 2014, 02:07:58 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 12:59:45 PM
The problem with the last option is that the weak client state will still have Lviv to contend with.  It took even Stalin years to subjugate the area.  A city like Lviv is exactly what you don't want to own if your country's government is teetering on the edge of losing legitimacy.

Why was Stalin so insistent on folding Lviv into Ukraine instead of leaving it in Poland?

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 12:32:30 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 19, 2014, 09:32:30 AM
Time to armor up my RV to run the nuclear ravaged roads of America.

What was the name of that show?

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 19, 2014, 03:11:59 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 12:32:30 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 19, 2014, 09:32:30 AM
Time to armor up my RV to run the nuclear ravaged roads of America.

What was the name of that show?

Damnation Alley

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 03:10:17 PM
My guess is because it was a culturally Ukrainian city.  The Interwar Poles did not treat Galicia well either, and did not consider it their core territory, though in hindsight they turned out to be somewhat more benign masters than the Soviets.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 04:06:33 PM
Some serious shit going down in Khmelnitsky.  Protesters surround the SBU (Ukrainian KGB) building, someone from inside the building fires on the crowd, killing a woman (the video is on Youtube).  Protesters evidently set the building on fire, blocked all exits, and turned off the water to the building.  I don't think they let those inside out yet. :unsure:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2014, 04:10:06 PM
These towns popping up in the news, are they generally located in the west, or spread out?

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 19, 2014, 04:11:18 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 04:06:33 PM
Some serious shit going down in Khmelnitsky.  Protesters surround the SBU (Ukrainian KGB) building, someone from inside the building fires on the crowd, killing a woman (the video is on Youtube).  Protesters evidently set the building on fire, blocked all exits, and turned off the water to the building.  I don't think they let those inside out yet. :unsure:

I read that that trade union hall that was burnt down had 110 seriously wounded protestors in it. This may be retaliation for that?

Quote from: Maximus on February 19, 2014, 12:41:45 PM
Apparently Lviv has declared independence.

QuoteUkraine Facing Civil War: Lviv Declares Independence from Yanukovich Rule

    By Gianluca Mezzofiore , February 19, 2014 12:49 PM GMT

Ukraine's western region of Lviv has reportedly declared independence from the central government.

Hours after protesters seized the prosecutor's office in central Lviv and forced a surrender by interior ministry police, the executive committee of the region council - also called the People's Rada – claimed control over the region.

"The regime has begun active military action against people. Dozens of people have been killed in Kiev and hundreds have been wounded. Fulfilling the will of society, the executive committee of the Lviv region's council, the People's Rada, is assuming full responsibility for the fate of the region and its citizens," read a statement.

The executive committee was led by Petro Kolodiy, chairman of the Lviv region's council.

Lviv lies close to the border with Poland and was one of the venues for the Euro 2012 football tournament. Over the past months, the city has become a powerful engine driving the insurgency against president Viktor Yanukovich.

The region, which is traditionally hostile to the easterner Yanukovich and favours closer ties with the European Union, has a population of 2.5 million.

The regional assembly in Lviv issued a statement condemning Yanukovich's government for its "open warfare" on demonstrators in Kiev.

Poland said Ukrainians blocked the Korczowa border crossing near Lviv. According to local media, opposition groups in other western cities including Khmelnitsky, Ivano-Frankivsk, Uzhorod and Ternopil, also stormed public buildings.

The opposition stronghold had de facto ousted governor Oleh Salo in January and expelled him from his offices.

The regional council has been in the hands of the opposition since then but this was the first declaration of independence.

Troops with the interior ministry's western region command have been barricaded into their barracks by anti-government reformers.

Ukrainian police on Tuesday moved to clear a protest camp in Kiev's Independence Square, known as the Maidan.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2014, 04:22:45 PM
Negotiating with whom?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2014, 04:22:45 PM
Negotiating with whom?

QuotePravda is reporting that opposition leader Vitali Klitschko and others have re-entered negotiations with President Yanukovych, and there would be a temporary ceasefire where police officers would hold off on assaulting Maidan Square.

Quote from: alfred russel on February 19, 2014, 03:49:18 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 03:10:17 PM
My guess is because it was a culturally Ukrainian city.  The Interwar Poles did not treat Galicia well either, and did not consider it their core territory, though in hindsight they turned out to be somewhat more benign masters than the Soviets.

Really? My understanding of the history of Lviv is not extensive, however, I thought that pre WWII it was primarily Polish. The Poles lost Lviv but gained german cities in the west.

QuoteDuring Habsburg rule, Lviv became one of the most important Polish, Ukrainian and Jewish cultural centres. In Lviv, according to the Austrian census of 1910, which listed religion and language, 51% of the city's population were Roman Catholics, 28% Jews, and 19% belonged to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Linguistically, 86% of the city's population used the Polish language and 11% preferred the Ukrainian language.[26] At that time, Lviv was home to a number of renowned Polish - language institutions, such as:

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 19, 2014, 01:58:21 PM

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 12:37:42 PM
I don't think Putin it looking to physically extend Russia's borders.  They know how difficult that is to do since WWII.

With the exception of Israel, has that happened at all since WWII, disputed territories notwithstanding?

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 04:12:10 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2014, 04:10:06 PM
These towns popping up in the news, are they generally located in the west, or spread out?

Generally in the West, but then there are cities like Sumy, that are as far east as you can go.

Quote from: Queequeg on February 19, 2014, 04:35:56 PM
Are you sure about that?  I always thought that the city of Lvov itself had a majority German, Polish and Jewish population until WW2.

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 04:47:12 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 19, 2014, 04:35:56 PM
Are you sure about that?  I always thought that the city of Lvov itself had a majority German, Polish and Jewish population until WW2.

The fact you're calling it L'vov speaks volumes.

This is one of those issues I wouldn't really trust wiki on, for either side.

Quote from: Queequeg on February 19, 2014, 04:48:08 PM
It was a famous cultural center for Poles and Jews.  And keep in mind I'm calling it L'vov not L'wow.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 04:43:25 PM
Hmm, scratch that.  Sumy may border Russia, but it's still on the periphery of the western block in all those infamous divided Ukraine maps.

Quote1927 GMT:UNIAN reports that protesters have stormed the offices of the regional state administration in Poltava, breaking windows and throwing Molotov cocktails. Police are reported to have subsequently dispersed the crowd. Earlier today, protesters there attacked the regional offices of the Party of Regions, smashing windows and doors before setting fire to the office.

Quote from: Queequeg on February 19, 2014, 04:48:08 PM
It was a famous cultural center for Poles and Jews.  And keep in mind I'm calling it L'vov not L'wow.

Quote from: The Brain on February 19, 2014, 04:49:11 PM
It's Lemberg FFS.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 19, 2014, 04:48:08 PM
It was a famous cultural center for Poles and Jews.  And keep in mind I'm calling it L'vov not L'wow.

:hmm: You think that this is a less offensive implication?

QuoteDuring the 1848 revolution, the Austrians, concerned by Polish demands for greater autonomy within the province, gave support to a small group of Ruthenians (the name of the East Slavic people who would later adopt the self-identification of "Ukrainians") whose goal was to be recognized as a distinct nationality.[3][4] After that, "Ruthenian language" schools were established, Ruthenian political parties formed, and the Ruthenians began attempts to develop their national culture.[3][5] This came as a surprise to Poles, who until the revolution believed, along with most of the politically aware Ruthenians, that Ruthenians were part of the Polish nation (which, at that time, was defined in political rather than ethnographic terms).[4] In the late 1890s and the first decades of the next century, the populist Ruthenian intelligentsia adopted the term Ukrainians to describe their nationality.[6] Beginning with the 20th century, national consciousness reached a large number of Ruthenian peasants[clarification needed].[7]

Quote from: The Brain on February 19, 2014, 04:49:11 PM
It's Lemberg FFS.

Quote from: Maximus on February 19, 2014, 04:57:24 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 04:43:25 PM
Hmm, scratch that.  Sumy may border Russia, but it's still on the periphery of the western block in all those infamous divided Ukraine maps.

Quote1927 GMT:UNIAN reports that protesters have stormed the offices of the regional state administration in Poltava, breaking windows and throwing Molotov cocktails. Police are reported to have subsequently dispersed the crowd. Earlier today, protesters there attacked the regional offices of the Party of Regions, smashing windows and doors before setting fire to the office.

I thought Poltava would be solidly in the eastern bloc, but maybe not? Which map are we going off of?

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 04:58:19 PM
And why the tears for Ukrainian Greek Catholics?  There are a whole parcel of active Uniate churches going in Edmonton and Alberta, for example.

Quote from: Maximus on February 19, 2014, 05:04:20 PM
Truce confirmed.

http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/30111.html

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 05:10:15 PM
I am more skeptical that the new found commitment to peace by the government is just a tactic to buy time to put more loyal troops into the West.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 04:06:33 PM
Some serious shit going down in Khmelnitsky.  Protesters surround the SBU (Ukrainian KGB) building, someone from inside the building fires on the crowd, killing a woman (the video is on Youtube).  Protesters evidently set the building on fire, blocked all exits, and turned off the water to the building.  I don't think they let those inside out yet. :unsure:

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 05:13:39 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 05:10:15 PM
I am more skeptical that the new found commitment to peace by the government is just a tactic to buy time to put more loyal troops into the West.

I dunno - Yanukovych has shown a willingness to negotiate, on multiple occasions.

It's just that he appears unwilling to make any concessions that would limit his own power as president.

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 05:18:55 PM

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 05:13:39 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 05:10:15 PM
I am more skeptical that the new found commitment to peace by the government is just a tactic to buy time to put more loyal troops into the West.

I dunno - Yanukovych has shown a willingness to negotiate, on multiple occasions.

It's just that he appears unwilling to make any concessions that would limit his own power as president.

So he'd talk but he probably wouldn't actually negotiate in good faith.  My gut sez he's just trying to buy a little time.

Quote from: derspiess on February 19, 2014, 05:18:55 PM
Oh crap, I just realized CC & I apparently agree on something :unsure:

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 19, 2014, 05:08:48 PM

Quote from: Maximus on February 19, 2014, 05:04:20 PM
Truce confirmed.

http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/30111.html

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm very skeptical that the country can be pulled back from so close to the brink after all the violence we saw yesterday. Once these dynamics get started they're really hard to stop.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 05:04:59 PM

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2014, 04:58:19 PM
And why the tears for Ukrainian Greek Catholics?  There are a whole parcel of active Uniate churches going in Edmonton and Alberta, for example.

Really?  You have to ask why people might feel sympathy for them?

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 06:05:34 PM
Battle aftermath:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hYvM_aIc4Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hYvM_aIc4Y).  Not for the faint of heart.

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 06:05:34 PM
Battle aftermath:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hYvM_aIc4Y.  Not for the faint of heart.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 19, 2014, 06:10:58 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 06:05:34 PM
Battle aftermath:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hYvM_aIc4Y.  Not for the faint of heart.

The riot cops are surprisingly unhostile to the good guys and surprisingly indifferent to film crews. :huh:

I'm more accustomed to seeing them batoning crippled guys trying to crawl away and TV crews.

Quote from: Razgovory on February 19, 2014, 06:10:09 PM

Quote from: DGuller on February 19, 2014, 06:05:34 PM
Battle aftermath:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hYvM_aIc4Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hYvM_aIc4Y).  Not for the faint of heart.

They need to stop throwing ketchup bottles at each other.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 05:10:15 PM
I am more skeptical that the new found commitment to peace by the government is just a tactic to buy time to put more loyal troops into the West.

Quote from: alfred russel on February 19, 2014, 06:22:08 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 19, 2014, 05:10:15 PM
I am more skeptical that the new found commitment to peace by the government is just a tactic to buy time to put more loyal troops into the West.

Probably, but I doubt the protestors can really win. Either by continuing with the status quo or escalating to a civil war.