Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Sheilbh]

Still weird in the context of right-wing-type nationalism.

Barely as weird as the way Putin uses Soviet symbols and references, with Russian Orthodox ones and the whole 'Russia's the last bastion of traditional values' schtick.

[derspiess]

Eh, it's like southerns flying the confederate flag.  It's part of their proud "heritage", even though it's a symbol of tyranny and treason.

Kinda, yeah.  But that's also weird.

[Neil]

It's not really that weird at all.  Symbols change in meaning all the time.

[Malthus]

Reminds me of that Onion article in "Our Dumb Century" about the death of Stalin:'"Who will crush our spirits now?" Russians mourn'. 

[Legbiter]

Fairly intense combat video in this link I found.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=58b_1392877307

Note the testudo formation adopted by the riot police.

[derspiess]

http://iaryna.cartodb.com/viz/b42d0d78-9b3b-11e3-9701-0ed66c7bc7f3/embed_map

That's a lot of Lenin statues.

[Grinning_Colossus]

Not that keeping Lenin statues around is in any way tasteful, but that really just seems sort of frivolous. They want to feel like they're part of some epochal change, but they haven't really had a revolution. The entire Ukrainian political class is corrupt, so they're just replacing an Eastern-facing oligarch with a Western-facing one--and one who will have to make hard choices that will impoverish the country in the short to medium term and quickly make him very unpopular.

[Malthus]

Not that keeping Lenin statues around is in any way tasteful, but that really just seems sort of frivolous. They want to feel like they're part of some epochal change, but they haven't really had a revolution. The entire Ukrainian political class is corrupt, so they're just replacing an Eastern-facing oligarch with a Western-facing one--and one who will have to make hard choices that will impoverish the country in the short to medium term and quickly make him very unpopular.

They have chased the incumbent leader out of power through a mass rising complete with deadly clashes in the streets. How is that not a revolution?

The hatred of Lenin arises from the sufferings that Ukrainians had to endure at the hands of communism, which were pretty extreme. Having statues of Lenin around in Ukraine makes as much sense as retaining statues of Hitler around in Israel.   

It is true that the political class there is pretty corrupt, or at least, has been pretty corrupt. The chances of improvement may be slight, but under the current incumbent, they were nil.

[garbon]

It's not really that weird at all.  Symbols change in meaning all the time.

Has the symbolism of the confederate flag changed all that much?

[Admiral Yi]

Not that keeping Lenin statues around is in any way tasteful, but that really just seems sort of frivolous. They want to feel like they're part of some epochal change, but they haven't really had a revolution. The entire Ukrainian political class is corrupt, so they're just replacing an Eastern-facing oligarch with a Western-facing one--and one who will have to make hard choices that will impoverish the country in the short to medium term and quickly make him very unpopular.

You're overstating the case.  A large part of the agenda of the demonstrations was the desire to integrate into the West, with all the respect for rule of law, democracy, and fair markets that that entails. 

[Sheilbh]

The hatred of Lenin arises from the sufferings that Ukrainians had to endure at the hands of communism, which were pretty extreme. Having statues of Lenin around in Ukraine makes as much sense as retaining statues of Hitler around in Israel.   

Maybe, but surely this hatred would've expressed itself before. I mean Ukraine's been independent for a while now and had a pro-Western revolution 10 years ago. They've had plenty of time to topple the statues.

I wonder if part of it's just because this is what you do during a revolution. Same as the fashion, ten years ago, to associate your revolution with a colour or the transfer of certain chants through the different Arab uprisings. This and seizing the control of the Maidan Square jumbotron are to the 21st century what seizing the radio station was to the 20th.

[Sheilbh]

You're overstating the case.  A large part of the agenda of the demonstrations was the desire to integrate into the West, with all the respect for rule of law, democracy, and fair markets that that entails.

I think that's overstating the case

Protesting for something doesn't necessarily mean you'll support all the necessary steps, all through a wrenching change. They may back integration into the EU. But will there be support for the rule of law, democracy (remember the free and fair election just a few years ago, the revolution doesn't) and all the rest? That's a different agenda and, I imagine, one with a smaller base.

Hopefully it'll work though and the West should help and try to convince Putin to back off.

[Malthus]

Maybe, but surely this hatred would've expressed itself before. I mean Ukraine's been independent for a while now and had a pro-Western revolution 10 years ago. They've had plenty of time to topple the statues.

I wonder if part of it's just because this is what you do during a revolution. Same as the fashion, ten years ago, to associate your revolution with a colour or the transfer of certain chants through the different Arab uprisings. This and seizing the control of the Maidan Square jumbotron are to the 21st century what seizing the radio station was to the 20th.

The perceived threat is different this time - a trip backwards to Russian domination, hence symbolically linked to the sufferings of ethnic Ukranians under (Russian) communism - and so, Lenin. The Orange Revolution was more "about" perceived election fraud, and it was bloodless.

[Grinning_Colossus]

Not that keeping Lenin statues around is in any way tasteful, but that really just seems sort of frivolous. They want to feel like they're part of some epochal change, but they haven't really had a revolution. The entire Ukrainian political class is corrupt, so they're just replacing an Eastern-facing oligarch with a Western-facing one--and one who will have to make hard choices that will impoverish the country in the short to medium term and quickly make him very unpopular.

They have chased the incumbent leader out of power through a mass rising complete with deadly clashes in the streets. How is that not a revolution?

The hatred of Lenin arises from the sufferings that Ukrainians had to endure at the hands of communism, which were pretty extreme. Having statues of Lenin around in Ukraine makes as much sense as retaining statues of Hitler around in Israel.   

It is true that the political class there is pretty corrupt, or at least, has been pretty corrupt. The chances of improvement may be slight, but under the current incumbent, they were nil.

Probably more like statues of Henry VIII in Ireland. It was Stalin who arranged the Holodomor.

They forced the president's (effective) resignation and reverted some of the laws that he imposed, but if they're having a revolution it's at the very least incomplete. They didn't change their form of government or even the composition of the Rada.

Outside of wonderful soft-power cultural things that I'm all for, the chances of improvement in the short term are also nil if Ukraine turns Westward. They'll have to go into even more debt to redirect their transportation infrastructure toward Europe, and their exports won't be at all competitive in Western markets, meaning that they'll have to deal with horrible restructuring. Even if their next government is an incorruptible paragon of civic virtue, things will get much worse for the bulk of the population before they have any hope of getting better, and given how close this bout of unrest came/is coming to civil war, that doesn't bode well for the future of the country.

[The Minsky Moment]

[ A large part of the agenda of the demonstrations was the desire to integrate into the West, with all the respect for rule of law, democracy, and fair markets that that entails.

For some of them, but not the rightists who seem to have been a significant contributor to the demonstrations.