Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Admiral Yi]

Why in the world would transportation be an issue? Trade already happens all over Europe through road and train, not even taking into account short range sea shipping.

Were you around when Squeelus posted that article about Ukraine not being Poland?

Now he's convinced that one of the determinants of economic success is proximity to Germany.

[HVC]

Why are you guys arguing with Russia's mouthpiece?

[Queequeg]

I just don't think there's really any reason to suspect that Ukraine's economy will look like Poland's at any point in the next 50 years.  It has very few comparative advantages and a whole host of negatives.  Poland, the Czech Republic and to an extent the other Warsaw Pact nations were all basically enslaved by Moscow, and unable to follow their own economic prerogatives, and had huge diaspora populations with ties to foreign capital and skills and some of the population had a working knowledge of market economics.  Ukraine has almost none of those.   And, frankly, I suspect that any Western aid and assistance (likely to be grossly inadequate) will not do a whole lot more than result in a few nice Mercedes or Siemens plants in Lviv and a whole lot of poor, unemployed, angry people throughout the rest of Ukraine. 

[katmai]

Why are you guys arguing with Russia's mouthpiece?

No shit.

[Queequeg]

Why are you guys arguing with Russia's mouthpiece?

I want Ukraine to succeed.  I want Russia to be a normal country that doesn't murder its best citizens or invade it's neighbors.  These aren't completely at odds; if anything I think it is now obvious that a non-evil Russia would probably help a lot in Ukrainian development. 

[Ed Anger]

Frankly speaking I don't think that's a completely horrible idea.  This will be a substantial drain on Russian resources and continue to completely alienate themselves from the global community.  They'll sacrifice all hopes of modernization and economic integration so they could gain some measure of control over Eastern European Ohio.

I ignore your insult.

[Viking]

Why in the world would transportation be an issue? Trade already happens all over Europe through road and train, not even taking into account short range sea shipping.

Were you around when Squeelus posted that article about Ukraine not being Poland?

Now he's convinced that one of the determinants of economic success is proximity to Germany.

Proximity to Germany has traditionally been one of Poland's problems.

[HVC]

Why are you guys arguing with Russia's mouthpiece?

I want Ukraine to succeed.  I want Russia to be a normal country that doesn't murder its best citizens or invade it's neighbors.  These aren't completely at odds; if anything I think it is now obvious that a non-evil Russia would probably help a lot in Ukrainian development. 

so your refuting my point by basically saying ukraines should shut up and be annexed becuase Russia knows what's best for them?

[Queequeg]

Why in the world would transportation be an issue? Trade already happens all over Europe through road and train, not even taking into account short range sea shipping.

Were you around when Squeelus posted that article about Ukraine not being Poland?

Now he's convinced that one of the determinants of economic success is proximity to Germany.

That was only part of the argument.  I don't know how you suggest Ukraine magically fix it's pension or demographic problems but I'm sure Yatsenyuk would like to hear your proposal. 

[The Larch]

Frankly speaking I don't think that's a completely horrible idea.  This will be a substantial drain on Russian resources and continue to completely alienate themselves from the global community.  They'll sacrifice all hopes of modernization and economic integration so they could gain some measure of control over Eastern European Ohio.

I ignore your insult.

What about his ignorance of logistics?

[Queequeg]

Why are you guys arguing with Russia's mouthpiece?

I want Ukraine to succeed.  I want Russia to be a normal country that doesn't murder its best citizens or invade it's neighbors.  These aren't completely at odds; if anything I think it is now obvious that a non-evil Russia would probably help a lot in Ukrainian development. 

so your refuting my point by basically saying ukraines should shut up and be annexed becuase Russia knows what's best for them?

That is very clearly not what I am saying and by this point I'm pretty sure you are trolling.  A non-evil Russia would allow for an uncomplicated integration of Ukraine in to the Ukrainian economy. 

However Russia is evil.  The moment the lights start going out in Donbass factories there is going to be instability.  We should find ways to plan around that. 

[Ed Anger]

Frankly speaking I don't think that's a completely horrible idea.  This will be a substantial drain on Russian resources and continue to completely alienate themselves from the global community.  They'll sacrifice all hopes of modernization and economic integration so they could gain some measure of control over Eastern European Ohio.

I ignore your insult.

What about his ignorance of logistics?

I ignore it.

[katmai]

Why are you guys arguing with Russia's mouthpiece?

I want Ukraine to succeed.  I want Russia to be a normal country that doesn't murder its best citizens or invade it's neighbors.  These aren't completely at odds; if anything I think it is now obvious that a non-evil Russia would probably help a lot in Ukrainian development.

[Queequeg]

Frankly speaking I don't think that's a completely horrible idea.  This will be a substantial drain on Russian resources and continue to completely alienate themselves from the global community.  They'll sacrifice all hopes of modernization and economic integration so they could gain some measure of control over Eastern European Ohio.

I ignore your insult.

What about his ignorance of logistics?

I'll freely admit to that, TBH.  I made that argument but the cultural differences between Poland and Ukraine and Ukraine's demographic situation were always more important in my mind.  I don't think anyone here is arguing that France and Germany are very soon going to start importing steel from Soviet-era Eastern Ukrainian factories. 

[Admiral Yi]

How does Ukraine's demographic situation compare to Georgia's?