Languish.org

QuoteZahra Rahnavard demands apology from Iran's President Ahmadinejad
Zahra Rahnavard
Martin Fletcher in Tehran
A diminutive 64-year-old grandmother who refuses to be bound by the rigid constraints imposed on women in Iran proved more than a match for the President of the Islamic Republic yesterday.

Zahra Rahnavard had already broken all precedent by actively campaigning for her husband, Mir Hossein Mousavi, a relative moderate who is President Ahmadinejad's strongest challenger in Friday's presidential election. Yesterday she went a step further by summoning the domestic and international media to a press conference at which she tore into the President for lying, humiliating women, debasing his office and betraying the principles of the revolution.

What sparked her fury was Mr Ahmadinejad's televised debate with her husband last week in which he challenged Dr Rahnavard's considerable academic qualifications, suggesting that they were earned not on merit, but through the patronage of a corrupt political elite.

"He wanted to destroy his rival through lies," she declared in a 90-minute finger-wagging tour de force, and she vowed to sue the President if he did not issue a public apology within 24 hours.

It was a more forceful attack than any of Mr Ahmadinejad's three male challengers have managed, and would have been remarkable in any election, let alone in male-dominated Iran. It also injected more uncertainty into a race that already has an outcome impossible to call. Dr Rahnavard's boldness is likely to enrage conservatives, but should delight the women and young urban Iranians who must vote in great numbers if Mr Mousavi is to unseat the incumbent.

Dr Rahnavard offered further inducements. She promised that her husband, if elected, would appoint women to Cabinet posts for the first time, and name many female deputy ministers and ambassadors. He would end discrimination and ensure that women were no longer treated as second-class citizens. He would release women's rights activists from prison and abolish the "morality police" who, during Mr Ahmadinejad's first term, cracked down on women deemed to be dressed inappropriately. She even suggested that women should not be forced to cover their heads.

Dr Rahnavard, a writer and sculptor whose works adorn some of Tehran's squares, enjoys some protection from conservative attacks because of her own revolutionary credentials. In the last years of the Shah, she was close to Ali Shariati, a dissident Islamist philosopher, and fled to the United States after his arrest. She returned just before the revolution in 1979 and helped to develop the new republic's cultural and political programmes.

She later served as a political adviser to Mohammad Khatami, the reformist President from 1997 to 2005, and as chancellor of al-Zahra university for women in Tehran — until she was removed by Mr Ahmadinejad's Government in 2006 because she had invited Shirin Ebadi, the Iranian human rights activist and Nobel laureate, to give a lecture.

In recent days she has lent sparkle to the campaign of her distinctly low-key, uncharismatic husband, introducing him at rallies, addressing meetings solo and writing newspaper articles. She sends unmistakable signals to reformist voters by wearing a floral headscarf and open black chador that reveals colourful clothes beneath, and appearing hand-in-hand with her husband on the election posters that festoon Tehran.

She has even been likened to Michelle Obama — a comparison that she rejected in halting English yesterday. "I am not Michelle Obama. I am Zahra Rahnavard. I am a follower of the daughter of the Prophet Muhammad, who has the same name," she said. Mr Ahmadinejad's wife is never seen and few Iranians could even name her.

With his wife's help, Mr Mousavi, a former prime minister, is gaining momentum, and his supporters — clad in green — are out in force on the streets of the capital. On Saturday he was about to address 15,000 people in Kharaj, a town west of Tehran, when the electricity was cut in what Dr Rahnavard suggested was an act of sabotage. "Were angels involved, or devils?" she asked pointedly.

Dr Rahnavard's aides made sure that plenty of foreign journalists were present at yesterday's press conference, lest the state-controlled media sought to ignore it.

Scarcely visible behind a bank of microphones, she accused Mr Ahmadinejad of humiliating not just her, but all Iranian women, and of seeking to block their progress and deny them higher education. She said that he had violated his constitutional duty to defend the rights of all Iranians, and brought shame on his office. "I will not relax until I teach him a lesson," she declared.

Many liberal Iranians are reluctant to vote lest they legitimise the regime, but Dr Rahnavard implored them to turn out on Friday.

"My dear friends, if you don't vote, this minority, this destructive team, will win again," she said.

Quote from: Solmyr on June 09, 2009, 07:38:49 AM
Is that Steven Spielberg?

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 09, 2009, 08:49:33 AM
Fuck the Iranians. Revenge for '79.

QuoteOne of the smartest people I know on questions relating to Iran is Patrick Clawson, the deputy director for research of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. I asked him four questions about the just-past Lebanese election, and the upcoming Iranian election, and the possibility of renewed war between Iran's proxies and Israel. Here is our exchange:

Jeffrey Goldberg: When it comes to Iran's nuclear program, does it matter who the country's president is, or is the nuclear program in other hands?

Patrick Clawson: Iran's Leader -- or as he insists on being called, "Supreme Leader" -- Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, is the one who has both the constitutional authority and the power in practice to call the shots on foreign and security policy.  Iran's presidents are more cheerleader-in-chief than commander-in-chief (Khamenei controls the armed forces, among his many other powers).  The nuclear issue is firmly in his hands.  That said, the choice of president is important.  Not because the president has much authority on the issues we care most about, but because the choice says much about the Leader's intentions.  When the Leader is confident that the Islamic Republic can ignore the West, he sanctions the elections of a hardliner like Mahmood Ahmadinejad.  When the Leader is persuaded that Iran has to sound more conciliatory - to blow smoke in our eyes instead of spitting in them - he allows a reformer" to win.

JG: Will Hezbollah's semi-defeat in the Lebanese election make it more conciliatory, or will it send it back to its jihadist roots?

PC: Unhappy that it and its allies lost the recent Lebanese elections, Hezbollah may well take up arms to insist that it retains its powerful role in Lebanon's government - a good example of how the principal victims of Iran's proxies are Arabs rather than Israelis.  Even before the election, Hezbollah was claiming that no matter what the election results, Hezbollah was still entitled to enough cabinet seats - a "blocking third" - to prevent the cabinet from taking positions of which it disapproved. Hezbollah had sent its militia to occupy all of Beirut, including the Christian-majority East Beirut, to demand this "blocking third." While the reform March 14 movement agreed to this under duress, that agreement - the Doha Accords, negotiated by the Qatari government - was to expire with this last election, but Hezbollah insists the Doha Accords formula will remain valid.  So the friends of Lebanon are likely to soon to confront the question: if Hezbollah picks up arms to reverse the election results, what can the West and moderate Arab states do to shore up Lebanon's democratic forces?

JG: When do you expect the next eruption in violence between Iran's proxies and Israel?

PC: Just as Hezbollah is more of a threat to Lebanese democracy than it is to Israel, Hamas in Gaza has killed more Fatah supporters than Israelis. Similarly, the various insurgent and militia groups that Iran helps in Iraq kill many more Iraqis than Americans.
Iran's proxies have not done well fighting Israel.  Hamas' standing in Gaza has not been helped by its poor showing in last winter's fighting against Israel nor from the continuing suffering since then.  And for all its bravado during the 2006 war against Israel, Hezbollah is no more popular in Lebanon today than it was before that war.  It is seen by many Lebanese as a tool of Iran, one reason it and its allies did poorly in the recent elections. So, with any luck, Iran's proxies will exercise considerable caution before they take on Israel again.

JG: There are clearly large numbers of people in Iran, the urban elites and the young most particularly, who seem unhappy with their government's priorities. Do you think we could be on the cusp of something new and different, and, from the Western perspective, better?

PC: The majority of Iranians are profoundly unhappy with the government of the Islamic Republic, but that does not necessarily mean that change is imminent. What keeps the regime in power is its support from a dedicated minority of true believers, which is at least ten percent if not twenty percent of the population.  The regime can count on its fanatical backers to use force - deadly force, if need be - to stop protests and keep the public in check. Those unhappy with the current system have overwhelmingly dropped out of politics, convinced that real change is not possible.

But Iran's Supreme Leader is worried about the vulnerability of the regime.  The main focus of his public speeches is about the danger of "soft overthrow" from "Western cultural invasion."  Khamenei warns that the West is plotting a "velvet revolution" like that which overthrew the Czechoslovak communist government in a mere one week's time.  He is so terrified that the  Islamic Republic could be quickly swept away that he has the security forces lock up journalists (like NPR reporter Roxanne Saberi), civil society activists promoting people-to-people exchanges (like the Wilson Center's Haleh Esfandiari), and physicians active in scientific exchange.  Presumably Khamenei knows something about his own country, and he worries that the regime is vulnerable.  Let us hope he is correct.

QuoteIranians packed polling stations from boutique-lined streets in north Tehran to conservative bastions in the countryside Friday with a choice that's left the nation divided and on edge: keeping hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in power or electing a reformist who favors greater freedoms and improved ties with the United States.

Turnout was massive and could break records. Crowds formed quickly at many voting sites in areas considered both strongholds for Ahmadinejad and his main rival, reformist Mir Hossein Mousavi, who served as prime minister in the 1980s and has become the surprise hero of a powerful youth-driven movement. At several polling stations in Tehran, mothers held their young children in their arms as they waited in long lines.

...

Iranians around the world also voted. In Dubai, home to an estimated 200,000 Iranians, the streets around the polling station at the Iranian consulate were jammed with voters overwhelmingly favoring Mousavi.

"He is our Obama," said Maliki Zadehamid, a 39-year-old exporter.

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2009, 12:36:56 PMThat said, let's hope that their voting isn't for naught. :swiss:

Quote from: Hansmeister on June 12, 2009, 02:54:33 PM
Achmedinejad winning is actually the preferable outcome, at least it would prevent the publishing of hundreds of op-eds by the usually brain-dead foreign policy experts about how a diplomatic solution is now suddenly possible.

Quote from: Hansmeister on June 12, 2009, 02:54:33 PM
Hmm, Iranians get to choose between one nutty extremist and one slightly less nutty extremist.  And regardless who wins they will have no real power since that is held by the Ayatollahs.  That this election is for nothing is a foregone conclusion.

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2009, 03:04:07 PM


It would be change in the right direction, even if irrelevant change. :)

Quote from: Savonarola on June 12, 2009, 03:07:26 PM
Mousavi really is Iran's Obama.

Quote from: Savonarola on June 12, 2009, 03:07:26 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2009, 03:04:07 PM


It would be change in the right direction, even if irrelevant change. :)

Mousavi really is Iran's Obama.

Quote from: Weatherman on June 12, 2009, 02:55:26 PM
CNN just mentioned that the Iranian govt said that Ahmi has received 69% of the 5 million votes counted so far..

Quote from: Josephus on June 12, 2009, 04:51:18 PM


They're even less democratic there, than America.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2009, 04:55:30 PM
Don't be such a muffin Timmy.

Quote

TEHRAN, Iran – Iran's interior ministry said President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad took nearly 70 percent of the early votes counted, but his pro-reform rival countered that he was the clear victor and warned of possible vote fraud in the election.


The dispute rose up even before polls closed early Saturday, heightening tensions across the capital where emotions have been running at a fever pitch. Mir Hossein Mousavi, the reformist candidate, suggested he might challenge the results.

Quote from: Hansmeister on June 12, 2009, 02:54:33 PM
Hmm, Iranians get to choose between one nutty extremist and one slightly less nutty extremist.  And regardless who wins they will have no real power since that is held by the Ayatollahs.  That this election is for nothing is a foregone conclusion.

Alas, the usual idiots in the west will delude themselves into thinking that there is a possibility of a political solution if Achmedinejad loses.

Achmedinejad winning is actually the preferable outcome, at least it would prevent the publishing of hundreds of op-eds by the usually brain-dead foreign policy experts about how a diplomatic solution is now suddenly possible.  As well as the inevitable denouncations of Israel after they bomb Iran.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 12, 2009, 04:07:06 PM

Quote from: Weatherman on June 12, 2009, 02:55:26 PM
CNN just mentioned that the Iranian govt said that Ahmi has received 69% of the 5 million votes counted so far..

The government is going to have a really hard time containing Mousavi's voters if that is true.  I doubt that even Mousavi could, this just smells really fishy.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 12, 2009, 07:02:44 PM
I also remember reading numerous warnings about sectarian divisions in Iraq between Sunnis and Shias.  I read counter-arguments that basically said that those warnings came from Arabists who were too in love with Arabic culture and too against the war to be taken seriously.  I may not trust 'foreign policy experts' whether that means Krauthammer or Hersh but I'll listen to any argument made by people who know more about Iran than I do because I start from a position of relative ignorance.

QuoteIran elections update
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 11:27pm

Leading Iranian opposition presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi was due to give a press conference at 10am Tehran time (8 1/2 hours ahead of EST), a Washington-based Iran hand tells The Cable. Two hours earlier, final vote counts (according to state counters) are expected to be announced.

"If [Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali] Khamenei comes and endorses the results prior to 10am, then a Mousavi protest will be more than a confrontation, but war," the Iran hand says.

Meantime, an international human rights group says that it has received unconfirmed reports that Mousavi may have been taken into custody by Iranian intelligence officials.

"We were told by very reliable sources that Mousavi was detained on his way to meet the Supreme Leader by members of the intelligence ministry and taken to a safe house to prevent him from making any public announcement," Hadi Ghaemi, of the Hague-based NGO, the International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran, told The Cable.

(A source who just spoke to someone who went to the Mousavi headquarters said the person disputed that Mousavi was detained. The situation is not clear.)

Ghaemi said that the Tehran campaign headquarters of Mousavi and another opposition presidential candidate Mehdi Karoubi have been surrounded by intelligence services.

"Security and armed forces have completely taken control of the situation and Karrubi and Mousavi both have been intimidated to accept defeat," Ghaemi wrote. "Both their HQs been seized and shut. Khamanei has summoned Karrubi and told him 'to shut up.' Similarly Mousavi has been forced to accept defeat."

"Based on this information, the claim is that using armed presence and use of force the coup is completed. Ahmadinejad's supporters are reportedly already in the streets of Tehran and celebrating their 'victory.' Mousavi and Karrubi and their supporters are so intimidated they don't dare to make any public challenges. I am told none of their top staff would do an interview. A very sad day for Iranian people...."

"Moussavi's official website, http://www.ghalamnews.ir/, reported that when his supporters gathered around his headquarters to celebrate what they believed was his victory based on reports of his representatives at polling stations, police forces confronted them using pepper spray and violently dispersed them. Moussavi's headquarters have been since shut, similar to Karroubi's headquarters," the human rights group said in a press release.

Ghaemi said  opposition forces believe there was massive fraud in the vote count but cannot figure out or yet prove where it occurred, perhaps in the computer system pre-planned in advance. He said that they are frightened. 

Iran hands have used words like "coup" to describe what they believe may be taking place.

See also, from Reuters, "Results stagger analysts," citing among others, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace's Karim Sadjadpour: "I don't think anyone anticipated this level of fraudulence. This was a selection, not an election. At least authoritarian regimes like Syria and Egypt have no democratic pretences. In retrospect it appears this entire campaign was a show: (Supreme Leader) Ayatollah (Ali) Khamenei wasn't ever going to let Ahmadinejad lose."

"I'm in disbelief that this could be the case," Reuters cited Trita Parsi. "It's one thing if Ahmadinejad had won the first round with 51 or 55 per cent. But this number ... just sounds tremendously strange in a way that doesn't add up ... It is difficult to feel comfortable that this occurred without any cheating."

Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2009, 01:10:08 AM
CUNTS!

Quote from: Tyr on June 13, 2009, 06:32:07 AM
Its good news if they have arrested him. It beats just subtly rigging the results and letting Ahmajiadad win by the supposed forces of the people's democracy.

Very out of character for the country though. Iran being a democracy is exactly WHY its so bad.

QuoteIran hand tells

Quote from: DontSayBanana on June 13, 2009, 08:13:26 AM
This. "True colors" and all that jazz; it would let us drop the pretense of having to be friendly to Iran if they're exposed in large-scale vote fraud and violent suppression.

Quote
Ahmadinejad wins Iran presidential election

Ahmadinejad declared winner of presidential election

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has been re-elected as president of Iran in a resounding victory, the interior minister says.

He won some 62.6% of the vote in an election marked by a high turnout of 85%, official figures show.

Supporters of pro-reform candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi have cried foul and clashed with riot police in Tehran, while public protests have been banned.

Iran's Supreme Leader congratulated Mr Ahmadinejad on his win, and urged his rivals against "provocations".

In a statement, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei praised the high turnout and described the count as a "real celebration" and called for calm in the aftermath of the result.

"Enemies may want to spoil the sweetness of this event... with some kind of ill-intentioned provocations," the ayatollah said.

Mr Mousavi has also claimed victory, calling the result a "dangerous charade", as his backers vowed to appeal for a re-run.

But observers say this would have little chance of success.

Riot police have used batons against Mr Mousavi's supporters, wearing his campaign colour of green and chanting "Down with the dictator", news agencies say.

Four police motorbikes were set on fire near the interior ministry, the BBC's John Simpson in Tehran says.

He adds that this is the worst public violence in Tehran since the Islamic revolution 30 years ago, with protesters chasing away secret policemen who were infiltrating the crowds.

The authorities had earlier sealed off Mr Mousavi's campaign HQ, preventing his supporters from holding a news conference.

Interior Minister Sadeq Mahsouli said that any demonstrations needed official permission, and none had been given.

The AFP news agency quoted a senior police official as saying: "The time of dancing and shouting is over."

One opposition newspaper has been closed down and BBC websites also appear to have been blocked by the Iranian authorities.

Mr Mousavi was hoping to prevent Mr Ahmadinejad winning more than 50% of the vote, in order to force a run-off election.

However, Interior Minister Sadeq Mahsouli said his share of the vote was 33.75%.

Danger of 'tyranny'

Mr Mousavi, a former prime minister, dismissed the election result as deeply flawed.

"I personally strongly protest the many obvious violations and I'm warning I will not surrender to this dangerous charade," the Reuters news agency reported him as saying.
   
"The result of such performance by some officials will jeopardise the pillars of the Islamic Republic and will establish tyranny."

Mr Mousavi had said there was a shortage of ballot papers and alleged that millions of people had been denied the right to vote.

His election monitors were not allowed enough access to polling stations, he added, saying he would deal seriously with any irregularities.

The head of the Committee to Protect the People's Votes, a group set up by all three opposition candidates, said the group would not accept the result, alleging fraud.

They have asked Iran's Guardian Council - a powerful body controlled by conservative clerics - to cancel the results and re-run the elections. A second opposition candidate, Mehdi Karroubi, declared the results "illegitimate and unacceptable".

Our correspondent says the result has been greeted with surprise and with deep scepticism by many Iranians.

The figures, if they are to be believed, show Mr Ahmadinejad winning strongly even in the heartland of Mr Mousavi, the main opposition contender.

The scale of Mr Ahmadinejad's win means that many people who voted for a reformist candidate in the previous presidential election four years ago have apparently switched their votes to Mr Ahmadinejad, he adds.

Police presence

Supporters of Mr Ahmadinejad took to the streets on Friday night as their candidate declared his own victory.

"I am happy that my candidate has won - he helps the poor and he catches the thieves," sandwich seller Kamra Mohammadi, 22, told the AFP news agency.

BBC Iranian affairs analyst Sadeq Saba says the result means that hope for peaceful reform in Iran may die for a long time.

Large turnout

There had been a surge of interest in Iran's presidential election, with unprecedented live television debates between the candidates and rallies attended by thousands.

There were long queues at polling stations, with turnout said to be higher than 80%.

Four candidates contested the election, with Mohsen Razai and Mehdi Karroubi only registering about 1% of the vote each.

President Ahmadinejad draws support mainly from the urban poor and rural areas, while his rivals have support among the middle classes and the educated urban population.

Iran is ruled under a system known as Velayat-e Faqih, or "Rule by the Supreme Jurist", who is currently Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

It was adopted by an overwhelming majority in 1979 following the Islamic revolution which overthrew the autocratic Western-backed Shah.

But the constitution also stipulates that the people are the source of power and the country holds phased presidential and parliamentary elections every four years.

All candidates are vetted by the powerful conservative-controlled Guardian Council, which also has the power to veto legislation it deems inconsistent with revolutionary principles.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2009, 10:20:00 AM
All the power is in the hands of the Ayatollah, so why do they care who wins the presidency enough to rig it and provoke unrest?

Quote from: The Brain on June 13, 2009, 10:58:13 AM
We should bomb them back to the Jazz Age.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 13, 2009, 10:20:00 AM
All the power is in the hands of the Ayatollah, so why do they care who wins the presidency enough to rig it and provoke unrest?

Quote from: The Brain on June 13, 2009, 10:58:13 AM
We should bomb them back to the Jazz Age.

Quote from: The Brain on June 13, 2009, 10:58:13 AM
We should bomb them back to the Jazz Age.

QuoteSaturday, June 13, 2009
Stealing the Iranian Election

Top Pieces of Evidence that the Iranian Presidential Election Was Stolen

1. It is claimed that Ahmadinejad won the city of Tabriz with 57%. His main opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, is an Azeri from Azerbaijan province, of which Tabriz is the capital. Mousavi, according to such polls as exist in Iran and widespread anecdotal evidence, did better in cities and is popular in Azerbaijan. Certainly, his rallies there were very well attended. So for an Azeri urban center to go so heavily for Ahmadinejad just makes no sense. In past elections, Azeris voted disproportionately for even minor presidential candidates who hailed from that province.

2. Ahmadinejad is claimed to have taken Tehran by over 50%. Again, he is not popular in the cities, even, as he claims, in the poor neighborhoods, in part because his policies have produced high inflation and high unemployment. That he should have won Tehran is so unlikely as to raise real questions about these numbers.

3. It is claimed that cleric Mehdi Karoubi, the other reformist candidate, received 320,000 votes, and that he did poorly in Iran's western provinces, even losing in Luristan. He is a Lur and is popular in the west, including in Kurdistan. Karoubi received 17 percent of the vote in the first round of presidential elections in 2005. While it is possible that his support has substantially declined since then, it is hard to believe that he would get less than one percent of the vote. Moreover, he should have at least done well in the west, which he did not.

4. Mohsen Rezaie, who polled very badly and seems not to have been at all popular, is alleged to have received 670,000 votes, twice as much as Karoubi.

5. Ahmadinejad's numbers were fairly standard across Iran's provinces. In past elections there have been substantial ethnic and provincial variations.

6. The Electoral Commission is supposed to wait three days before certifying the results of the election, at which point they are to inform Khamenei of the results, and he signs off on the process. The three-day delay is intended to allow charges of irregularities to be adjudicated. In this case, Khamenei immediately approved the alleged results.

I am aware of the difficulties of catching history on the run. Some explanation may emerge for Ahmadinejad's upset that does not involve fraud. For instance, it is possible that he has gotten the credit for spreading around a lot of oil money in the form of favors to his constituencies, but somehow managed to escape the blame for the resultant high inflation.

But just as a first reaction, this post-election situation looks to me like a crime scene. And here is how I would reconstruct the crime.

As the real numbers started coming into the Interior Ministry late on Friday, it became clear that Mousavi was winning. Mousavi's spokesman abroad, filmmaker Mohsen Makhbalbaf, alleges that the ministry even contacted Mousavi's camp and said it would begin preparing the population for this victory.

The ministry must have informed Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, who has had a feud with Mousavi for over 30 years, who found this outcome unsupportable. And, apparently, he and other top leaders had been so confident of an Ahmadinejad win that they had made no contingency plans for what to do if he looked as though he would lose.

They therefore sent blanket instructions to the Electoral Commission to falsify the vote counts.

This clumsy cover-up then produced the incredible result of an Ahmadinejad landlside in Tabriz and Isfahan and Tehran.

The reason for which Rezaie and Karoubi had to be assigned such implausibly low totals was to make sure Ahmadinejad got over 51% of the vote and thus avoid a run-off between him and Mousavi next Friday, which would have given the Mousavi camp a chance to attempt to rally the public and forestall further tampering with the election.

This scenario accounts for all known anomalies and is consistent with what we know of the major players.

More in my column, just out, in Salon.com: "Ahmadinejad reelected under cloud of fraud," where I argue that the outcome of the presidential elections does not and should not affect Obama's policies toward that country-- they are the right policies and should be followed through on regardless.

The public demonstrations against the result don't appear to be that big. In the past decade, reformers have always backed down in Iran when challenged by hardliners, in part because no one wants to relive the horrible Great Terror of the 1980s after the revolution, when faction-fighting produced blood in the streets. Mousavi is still from that generation.

My own guess is that you have to get a leadership born after the revolution, who does not remember it and its sanguinary aftermath, before you get people willing to push back hard against the rightwingers.

So, there are protests against an allegedly stolen election. The Basij paramilitary thugs and the Iranian Revolutionary Guards will break some heads. Unless there has been a sea change in Iran, the theocrats may well get away with this soft coup for the moment. But the regime's legitimacy will take a critical hit, and its ultimate demise may have been hastened, over the next decade or two.

What I've said is full of speculation and informed guesses. I'd be glad to be proved wrong on several of these points. Maybe I will be.

PS: Here's the data:

So here is what Interior Minister Sadeq Mahsouli said Saturday about the outcome of the Iranian presidential elections:

"Of 39,165,191 votes counted (85 percent), Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won the election with 24,527,516 (62.63 percent)."

He announced that Mir-Hossein Mousavi came in second with 13,216,411 votes (33.75 percent).

Mohsen Rezaei got 678,240 votes (1.73 percent)

Mehdi Karroubi with 333,635 votes (0.85 percent).

He put the void ballots at 409,389 (1.04 percent).

QuoteIt's Saturday afternoon in Tehran, and the streets are generally quiet. But the aftermath of Iran's rigged election, in which radical-right President Ahmadinejad and his paramilitary backers were kept in office, has left Iran's capital steeped in anger, despair, and bitterness.

Last night, after the polls closed, heavily armed troops from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps were in evidence in the streets. In one area of north Tehran, where backers of opposition challenger and reformist ex-Prime Minister Mousavi are concentrated, I saw a convoy of at least fifteen military vehicles filled with armed guards idling along the side of the road. The street in front of the Interior Ministry, where votes are counted, is blocked and heavily guarded after rumors that Mousavi supporters might gather there to protest the election count.

Mousavi himself has pledged to fight the verdict, using words like "tyranny" and adding, "I will not surrender to this dangerous charade."

To get some perspective on the crisis, today I went to see Ibrahim Yazdi, a leading Iranian dissident and Iran's foreign minister in the early days of Islamic republic. Here is the text of the interview:

What is your reaction to the results of the election?

Many of us believe that the election was rigged. Not only Mousavi. We don't have any doubt. And as far as we are concerned, it is not legitimate.

There were many, many irregularities. They did not permit the candidates to supervise the election or the counting of the ballots at the polling places. The minister of the interior announced that he would oversee the final count in his office, at the ministry, with only two aides present.

In previous elections, they announced the results in each district, so people could follow up and make a judgment about the validity of the figures. In 2005, there were problems: in one district there were about 100,000 eligible voters, and they announced a total vote of 150,000. This time they didn't even release information about each particular district.

In all, there were about 45,000 polling places. There were 14,000 mobile ones, that can move from place to place. Many of us protested that. Originally, these mobile polling places were supposed to be used in hospitals and so on. This time, they were used in police stations, army bases, and various military compounds. When it comes to the military compounds and so on, if even 500 extra votes were put into each of the 14,000 boxes, that is seven million votes.

Mousavi and Karroubi had earlier established a joint committee to protect the peoples' votes. Many young people volunteered to work on that committee. But the authorities didn't let it happen. Last night [that is, election night] the security forces closed down that committee. There is no way, independent of the government and the Guardian Council, to verify the results.

I've heard people say that President Ahmadinejad is gathering so much power that he might be able to use the Revolutionary Guard and his other allies to make a coup d'etat against the state.

A coup d'etat? They've already made one! They've created a dictatorship, in fact. Do you know that last night the security forces occupied the offices of many newspapers, to make sure that their reporting on the election was favorable? They changed many headlines. They fixed the election.

The Guards are taking over everything, including many economic institutions. The ministry of the interior is increasing its control in all the provinces.

We have information that Ahmadinejad is thinking about changing the Constitution to allow the president to serve more than two terms, to make his presidency more or less permanent.

Of course, there are strong voices in the establishment that will challenge him. It is not clear that he and the Sepah (the Revolutionary Guard) will be strong enough to overcome them. But there will be clashes over this.

Where does the Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, stand in regard to this?

The problem is that there is concern about the relationship between the Leader and the Guards. To what extent can the Leader control or moderate the Guards? This is a difficult question.

After the last election [2005], after Ahmadinejad was first elected, there were many questions raised about Ahmadinejad's effort to isolate the Leader. We talked openly about this. This time, in preparation for the vote, they isolated him even further. For instance, in years past [former President] Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani was influential, perhaps even more influential than the leader. Now, with the slogans being used at Ahmadinejad's rallies, things like "Death to Hashemi!", they have created a deep rift. Khamenei has also lost the support of many high-ranking members of the clergy.

Many old comrades of the [1979] revolution don't trust Ahmadinejad. It is only the Sepah that supports him.

And what do you mean by "isolating" the Leader?

By monitoring and controlling the flow of information to him. Unfortunately, God will not reveal information to him directly. Where does he get his information, his data? The system works in such a way that information is very powerful. And Ahmadinejad controls the ministry of the interior, the ministry of information, the ministry of intelligence.

What do you think will happen now? So much energy was devoted to support for Mousavi, and so much hope was created. Do you think it will result in a crisis?

Certainly, we are concerned about spontaneous reactions. Iran's youth has been engaged and mobilized. Around the country, there have already been some violent clashes.

We do not agree with violence, because violence will only give the Right an excuse to suppress the opposition.

Certainly, the gap inside Iran, politically, will be widened. Our main concern is how to keep the enthusiasm that was created for the election alive, in order to monitor and constrain the power of the government. The only way to counter it is the power of the people. We need to organize them.

In this we have an experience to guide us. During the era of the Shah, there was only one moment in which the power of the people was mobilized against the Shah and to support changes in the Constitution, and that was during the era of [Prime Minister] Mossadegh. [Mossadegh was ousted in the 1953 coup organized by the CIA and British intelligence.] In that era, there was a very powerful political movement inside the country that checked the power of the Shah. Today we have to do the same. We are nor after subversion. We do not want to change the Constitution. We do want to create a viable political force that can exert its influence.

QuoteObama Administration Officials Say Efforts to Engage Iran Will Move Forward
Published: June 13, 2009
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is determined to press on with efforts to engage the Iranian government, senior officials said Saturday, despite misgivings about irregularities in the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2009, 07:33:31 PM
Clearly, the correct response to this is to bomb all major Iranian cities, thereby unifying support behind the shitty Government so we can all go back to Manicheanism.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2009, 07:35:29 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2009, 07:33:31 PM
Clearly, the correct response to this is to bomb all major Iranian cities, thereby unifying support behind the shitty Government so we can all go back to Manicheanism.

That being the only other option.

There's something about responding to Square Head's posts that makes your brain shut down.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2009, 07:38:10 PM
I think it is reasonably clear that Obama's outreach efforts had something to do with this.

Quote from: Neil on June 13, 2009, 07:40:11 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2009, 07:38:10 PM
I think it is reasonably clear that Obama's outreach efforts had something to do with this.

:lol:

Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2009, 07:43:51 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 13, 2009, 07:40:11 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 13, 2009, 07:38:10 PM
I think it is reasonably clear that Obama's outreach efforts had something to do with this.

:lol:

It might be hard to get through your manic online personality, but it is substantially harder to argue that the USA is the Great Satan when it elects a half-black Kenyan-American who talks about how awesome Nowruz and Islam are.

Quote from: Hansmeister on June 13, 2009, 07:22:08 PM
The Obamateur strikes again!

Quote from: Faeelin on June 13, 2009, 07:57:03 PM

Quote from: Hansmeister on June 13, 2009, 07:22:08 PM
The Obamateur strikes again!

Umm. What should have have done. Condemn the results, making the opposition look like US stooges?

Quote from: citizen k on June 13, 2009, 08:16:04 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd.yimg.com%2Fa%2Fp%2Frids%2F20090613%2Fi%2Fr2944046335.jpg&hash=3bf0331d4933a4f6693e9df9245216d5deda177a)

Quote from: Faeelin on June 13, 2009, 07:57:03 PM
Umm. What should have have done. Condemn the results, making the opposition look like US stooges?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2009, 09:50:40 PM

Quote from: Faeelin on June 13, 2009, 07:57:03 PM
Umm. What should have have done. Condemn the results, making the opposition look like US stooges?

Good thinking.  Perhaps we should follow the same line in Burma and Zimbabwe.

QuoteHopes of change crushed in Iran
Election ends in punctured illusions in Tehran and in Western capitals

By Bill Keller
updated 2:22 a.m. ET, Sun., June 14, 2009

TEHRAN, Iran - It is impossible to know for sure how much the ostensible re-election of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad represents the preference of an essentially conservative Iranian public and how much, as opposition voters passionately believe, it is the imposed verdict of a fundamentally authoritarian regime.

But for those who dreamed of a gentler Iran, Saturday was a day of smoldering anger, crushed hopes and punctured illusions, from the streets of Tehran to the policy centers of Western capitals.

Iranians who hoped for a bit more freedom, a better managed economy and a less reviled image in the world wavered between protest and despair on Saturday.

On the streets around Fatemi Square, near the headquarters of the leading opposition candidate, Mir Hussein Moussavi, riot police officers dressed in RoboCop gear roared down the sidewalks on motorcycles to disperse and intimidate the clots of pedestrians who had gathered to share rumors and dismay.

"Another four years of dictatorship," a voter muttered. "This is a coup d'état," several others agreed. Some women wept openly. Some talked of "mutiny." Others were more cynical.

"It was just a movie," said Hussein Gharibi, a 54-year-old juice vendor, scoffing at those who had gotten their hopes up. "They were all just players in a movie."

Far off, President Obama and other Western leaders who had seen a better relationship with Iran as potentially helpful in resolving the problems of Afghanistan, Iraq and nuclear proliferation faced the prospect of doing business with a man who, in addition to being a Holocaust-denying hard-liner, now stands suspected in a sham election.

Satisfaction for some
There were some important constituencies that took satisfaction from the outcome.

Domestically, Mr. Ahmadinejad appealed to the fears of the more pious and poor who had found change unsettling. This included those alarmed by the days of political street carnival preceding the election and those (not just men) put off by Mr. Moussavi's attention to the traditional, second-class role of women in this paternalistic quasi-theocracy.

They were joined by the civil servants, police officers and pensioners who all enjoyed the incumbent's oil-financed generosity to his base, by those who relished his name-naming attack on corruption and by those who took pride in his defiance of the West.

Outside Iran, the result was comforting to hawks in Israel and some Western capitals who had feared that a more congenial Iranian president would cause the world to let down its guard against a country galloping toward nuclear weapons capability. (Mr. Moussavi, while promising a more conciliatory foreign policy, did not disavow the country's nuclear-processing project, which Iran insists is for civilian ends alone.)

"In fact, Moussavi will be more difficult to deal with, because he will be nicer," one skeptical Western diplomat said on the eve of the vote.

Among downcast Iranian journalists and academics, the chatter focused on why the interlocking leadership of clerics, military officers and politicians, without whose acquiescence little of importance happens, decided to stick with Mr. Ahmadinejad. Did they panic at the unexpected passion for change that arose in the closing weeks of the Moussavi campaign? Did Mr. Moussavi go too far in his promises of women's rights, civil freedom and a more conciliatory approach to the West? Or was the surge an illusion after all, the product of wishful thinking?

The optimists in Iran and abroad have to ask themselves whether the joyful ruckus that filled the streets represented a new popular force or just an opportunity to let off steam. While Iran is not quite the closed society many imagine — it is a nation of text messagers and Facebook users, with access to Persian-language BBC broadcasts and other independent voices — it is still a controlled society.

Numbers doctored?
On the street, the speculation focused more on how the election was manipulated, as many voters insisted it must have been for Mr. Ahmadinejad to score such a preposterous margin of victory.

One version (from somebody's brother who supposedly knew someone inside) had it that vote counters simply were ordered to doctor the numbers: "Make that 1,000 for Ahmadinejad a 3,000."

Others pointed out that the ballots seemed designed to lead opposition voters astray. Voters were obliged to choose a candidate and fill in a code. Though Mr. Moussavi was candidate No. 4, the code No. 44 signified Mr. Ahmadinejad.

One employee of the Interior Ministry, which carried out the vote count, said the government had been preparing its fraud for weeks, purging anyone of doubtful loyalty and importing pliable staff members from around the country.

"They didn't rig the vote," claimed the man, who showed his ministry identification card but pleaded not to be named. "They didn't even look at the vote. They just wrote the name and put the number in front of it."

Few options for the opposition
The government on Saturday insisted that the election was aboveboard and made it ominously clear that it would have little patience with anyone who questioned the purity of Iranian democracy.

It was far from clear what recourse the opposition had left.

Mr. Moussavi, who disappeared amid rumors that he was under house arrest or worse, sent word that there would be no turning back, but he did not say how he or his followers should challenge the outcome.

The text messaging that is the nervous system of the opposition was shut down, along with universities, Web sites and newspapers the government regarded as hostile. Mr. Moussavi was not allowed a platform on Saturday and barely managed to get out a communiqué calling the election "a magic show."

Although there were bursts of defiance that were forcibly subdued, there was also a palpable fear; on Saturday, unlike on Friday, few opposition voters would let their names be used.

"By the evening, people will pour into the streets," predicted one young woman, from inside the hood of her black chador. "But Ahmadinejad will become president by force."

This story, "Reverberations as Door Slams on Hope of Change," originally appeared in The New York Times.


Copyright © 2009 The New York Times

Quote from: Josephus on June 14, 2009, 10:18:19 AM

Quote
What is a young Dustin Hoffman doing working for the Iranian Riot Police?

:lmfao:

His acting gigs have been few and far between lately.

Or...the method actor is studying for an upcoming role.

Quote from: Neil on June 14, 2009, 11:03:51 AM

Quote from: Josephus on June 14, 2009, 10:18:19 AM

Quote
What is a young Dustin Hoffman doing working for the Iranian Riot Police?

:lmfao:

His acting gigs have been few and far between lately.

Or...the method actor is studying for an upcoming role.

To be honest, I haven't even seen a new movie with young Dustin Hoffman in 35-40 years.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 04:49:59 PM
I think it is reasonably clear now that we are looking at a revolution.  How it turns out is anyone's guess.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2009, 04:53:50 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 04:49:59 PM
I think it is reasonably clear now that we are looking at a revolution.  How it turns out is anyone's guess.

Has the violence really ramped up in the last 24 hours?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2009, 07:12:49 PM
I never understood the point of burning your garbage during a riot.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 04:55:49 PM
the army has declared neutrality.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2009, 04:53:50 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 04:49:59 PM
I think it is reasonably clear now that we are looking at a revolution.  How it turns out is anyone's guess.

Has the violence really ramped up in the last 24 hours?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2009, 05:30:33 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 04:55:49 PM
the army has declared neutrality.

Source me baby.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2009, 05:30:33 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 04:55:49 PM
the army has declared neutrality.

Source me baby.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 14, 2009, 05:33:50 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2009, 05:30:33 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 04:55:49 PM
the army has declared neutrality.

Source me baby.

I believe it's a rumour at this point.  If it's true then that means the regime has only paramilitary forces left.  I believe the tipping point in 1979 was when the army declared neutrality, so if it were to happen it would be very major news.

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 14, 2009, 05:47:41 PM
Unless things are over-reported or under-reported in either language media, but according to Radio-Canada's two reporters on the ground, the protest movement is rapidly out of breath: Moussavi has asked to keep it non-violent. It certainly did not look like a revolution in the making - although perhaps a turning point over the nature and form of the protests under the Iranian regime.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 05:52:53 PM
When did you hear this?  Haven't heard anything of the sort.  From what I have heard the protests have been exclusively non-violent while the response has been anything but.  Last I heard there were reports of riots spreading out from Tehran.

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 14, 2009, 05:47:41 PM
Unless things are over-reported or under-reported in either language media, but according to Radio-Canada's two reporters on the ground, the protest movement is rapidly out of breath: Moussavi has asked to keep it non-violent. It certainly did not look like a revolution in the making - although perhaps a turning point over the nature and form of the protests under the Iranian regime.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2009, 05:54:33 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 05:52:53 PM
When did you hear this?  Haven't heard anything of the sort.  From what I have heard the protests have been exclusively non-violent while the response has been anything but.  Last I heard there were reports of riots spreading out from Tehran.

Dude, this thread has pictures of greenboys swinging pipes.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 05:52:53 PM
When did you hear this?  Haven't heard anything of the sort.  From what I have heard the protests have been exclusively non-violent while the response has been anything but.  Last I heard there were reports of riots spreading out from Tehran.

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 14, 2009, 06:22:44 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 05:52:53 PM
When did you hear this?  Haven't heard anything of the sort.  From what I have heard the protests have been exclusively non-violent while the response has been anything but.  Last I heard there were reports of riots spreading out from Tehran.

About two hours ago.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 06:36:00 PM
I am hearing a lot of rumors that some of the police are non-Farsi speaking, possibly Arabs.  Lebanese? 

Quote from: Neil on June 14, 2009, 06:46:20 PM
You know, if Iran has a revolution, everything that Bush did as president will be vindicated.

Quote from: Iormlund on June 14, 2009, 06:52:56 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 14, 2009, 06:46:20 PM
You know, if Iran has a revolution, everything that Bush did as president will be vindicated.

There's a slight problem with that analysis: Iraq is not the shinning beacon Bush thought it would be. If there's a successful revolution (unlikely) it will actually show how you don't need to go invading countries for democracy to spread.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 06:36:00 PM
I am hearing a lot of rumors that some of the police are non-Farsi speaking, possibly Arabs.  Lebanese? 

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 06:36:00 PM
I am hearing a lot of rumors that some of the police are non-Farsi speaking, possibly Arabs.  Lebanese? 



EDIT:  Separate fights at universities in Tehran and Shiraz.  Right now.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2009, 07:47:19 PM
It's not such a terrible outcome from my perspective.  This radicalizes the reformists more than an outright victory would have.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2009, 08:05:00 PM
You're only going to get disappointed if you keep on like this Spellus, in this situation you should expect the worst. That way you can only be pleased if things turn out differently.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2009, 08:05:00 PM
You're only going to get disappointed if you keep on like this Spellus, in this situation you should expect the worst. That way you can only be pleased if things turn out differently.

Quote from: Neil on June 14, 2009, 08:10:44 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2009, 08:05:00 PM
You're only going to get disappointed if you keep on like this Spellus, in this situation you should expect the worst. That way you can only be pleased if things turn out differently.

I, on the other hand, am planning for the best:  A heartbroken Spellus.

Quote from: Neil on June 14, 2009, 08:10:44 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2009, 08:05:00 PM
You're only going to get disappointed if you keep on like this Spellus, in this situation you should expect the worst. That way you can only be pleased if things turn out differently.

I, on the other hand, am planning for the best:  A heartbroken Spellus.

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 14, 2009, 08:11:54 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 14, 2009, 08:10:44 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2009, 08:05:00 PM
You're only going to get disappointed if you keep on like this Spellus, in this situation you should expect the worst. That way you can only be pleased if things turn out differently.

I, on the other hand, am planning for the best:  A heartbroken Spellus.

Bonus: The revolutionary guard starts destroying archeology sites.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2009, 07:47:19 PM
It's not such a terrible outcome from my perspective.  This radicalizes the reformists more than an outright victory would have.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 07:58:57 PM
Yeah.  Mousavi might have given the regime a few more years, now this thing has a definite expiration date pretty soon, if not now. 

Quote from: Barrister on June 14, 2009, 09:22:21 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 07:58:57 PM
Yeah.  Mousavi might have given the regime a few more years, now this thing has a definite expiration date pretty soon, if not now. 

Sorry, but people said the same thing after June 1989.

Never underestimate the power of a totalitarian regime.

Quote from: Barrister on June 14, 2009, 09:22:21 PM
Sorry, but people said the same thing after June 1989.

Never underestimate the power of a totalitarian regime.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 10:00:04 PM

Quote from: Barrister on June 14, 2009, 09:22:21 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 07:58:57 PM
Yeah.  Mousavi might have given the regime a few more years, now this thing has a definite expiration date pretty soon, if not now. 

Sorry, but people said the same thing after June 1989.

Never underestimate the power of a totalitarian regime.

Within two years of that every Communist regime in Europe fell.  For every China, there's a USSR or Poland.

Quote from: Barrister on June 14, 2009, 10:26:06 PM


But China was the one regime willing to gun down its citizens.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 10:28:52 PM
The fact that Ahmadinetard had to import Lebanese fighters proves an important point

QuoteDon't Call What Happened in Iran Last Week an ElectionIt was a crudely stage-managed insult to everyone involved.
By Christopher HitchensPosted Sunday, June 14, 2009, at 6:41 PM ET

For a flavor of the political atmosphere in Tehran, Iran, last week, I quote from a young Iranian comrade who furnishes me with regular updates:

    "I went to the last major Ahmadinejad rally and got the whiff of what I imagine fascism to have been all about. Lots of splotchy boys who can't get a date are given guns and told they're special."

It's hard to better this, either as an evocation of the rancid sexual repression that lies at the nasty core of the "Islamic republic" or as a description of the reserve strength that the Iranian para-state, or state within a state, can bring to bear if it ever feels itself even slightly challenged. There is a theoretical reason why the events of the last month in Iran (I am sorry, but I resolutely decline to refer to them as elections) were a crudely stage-managed insult to those who took part in them and those who observed them. And then there is a practical reason. The theoretical reason, though less immediately dramatic and exciting, is the much more interesting and important one.

Iran and its citizens are considered by the Shiite theocracy to be the private property of the anointed mullahs. This totalitarian idea was originally based on a piece of religious quackery promulgated by the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and known as velayat-e faqui. Under the terms of this edict—which originally placed the clerics in charge of the lives and property of orphans, the indigent, and the insane—the entire population is now declared to be a childlike ward of the black-robed state. Thus any voting exercise is, by definition, over before it has begun, because the all-powerful Islamic Guardian Council determines well in advance who may or may not "run." Any newspaper referring to the subsequent proceedings as an election, sometimes complete with rallies, polls, counts, and all the rest of it is the cause of helpless laughter among the ayatollahs. ("They fell for it? But it's too easy!") Shame on all those media outlets that have been complicit in this dirty lie all last week. And shame also on our pathetic secretary of state, who said that she hoped that "the genuine will and desire" of the people of Iran would be reflected in the outcome. Surely she knows that any such contingency was deliberately forestalled to begin with.

In theory, the first choice of the ayatollahs might not actually "win," and there could even be divisions among the Islamic Guardian Council as to who constitutes the best nominee. Secondary as that is, it can still lead to rancor. After all, corrupt systems are still subject to fraud. This, like hypocrisy, is the compliment that vice pays to virtue. With near-incredible brutishness and cruelty, then, the guardians moved to cut off cell-phone and text-message networks that might give even an impression of fairness and announced though their storm-troop "revolutionary guards" that only one form of voting had divine sanction. ("The miraculous hand of God," announced Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, had been present in the polling places and had announced a result before many people had even finished voting. He says that sort of thing all the time.)

The obvious evidence of fixing, fraud, and force to one side, there is another reason to doubt that an illiterate fundamentalist like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad could have increased even a state-sponsored plebiscite-type majority. Everywhere else in the Muslim world, in every election in the last two years, the tendency has been the other way. In Morocco in 2007, the much-ballyhooed Justice and Development Party wound up with 14 percent of the vote. In Malaysia and Indonesia, the predictions of increased market share for the pro-Sharia parties were likewise falsified. In Iraq this last January, the local elections penalized the clerical parties that had been making life a misery in cities like Basra. In neighboring Kuwait last month, the Islamist forces did poorly, and four women—including the striking figure of Rola Dashti, who refuses to wear any headgear—were elected to the 50-member parliament. Most important of all, perhaps, Iranian-sponsored Hezbollah was convincingly and unexpectedly defeated last week in Lebanon after an open and vigorous election, the results of which were not challenged by any party. And, from all I hear, if the Palestinians were to vote again this year—as they were at one point supposed to do—it would be highly improbable that Hamas would emerge the victor.

Yet somehow a senile and fanatical religious clique that has failed even to condition the vote in a country like Lebanon, where it has proxy and surrogate parties under arms, is able to reward itself by increasing its "majority" in a festeringly bankrupt state where it controls the media and enjoys a monopoly of violence. I think we should deny it any official recognition of this consolation. (I recommend a reading of "Neither Free Nor Fair: Elections in the Islamic Republic of Iran" and other productions of the Abdorrahman Boroumand Foundation. This shows that past penalties for not pleasing the Islamic Guardian Council have included more than mere disqualification and have extended to imprisonment and torture and death, sometimes in that order. A new movie by Cyrus Nowrasteh, The Stoning of Soraya M., will soon show what happens to those who dare to dissent in other ways and are dealt with by Ahmadinejad's "grass roots" fanatics.)

Mention of the Lebanese elections impels me to pass on what I saw with my own eyes at a recent Hezbollah rally in south Beirut, Lebanon. In a large hall that featured the official attendance of a delegation from the Iranian Embassy, the most luridly displayed poster of the pro-Iranian party was a nuclear mushroom cloud! Underneath this telling symbol was a caption warning the "Zionists" of what lay in store. We sometimes forget that Iran still officially denies any intention of acquiring nuclear weapons. Yet Ahmadinejad recently hailed an Iranian missile launch as a counterpart to Iran's success with nuclear centrifuges, and Hezbollah has certainly been allowed to form the idea that the Iranian reactors may have nonpeaceful applications. This means, among other things, that the vicious manipulation by which the mullahs control Iran can no longer be considered as their "internal affair." Fascism at home sooner or later means fascism abroad. Face it now or fight it later. Meanwhile, give it its right name.

Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2009, 07:40:13 PM
Hey Faeelin, it might be appropriate to change the title of this thread. :(

Quote from: Faeelin on June 14, 2009, 10:38:14 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 14, 2009, 07:40:13 PM
Hey Faeelin, it might be appropriate to change the title of this thread. :(

Can I?

Incidentally, Andrew Sullivan has some pretty gripping coverage:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/

Quote from: Barrister on June 14, 2009, 10:26:06 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 10:00:04 PM

Quote from: Barrister on June 14, 2009, 09:22:21 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 07:58:57 PM
Yeah.  Mousavi might have given the regime a few more years, now this thing has a definite expiration date pretty soon, if not now. 

Sorry, but people said the same thing after June 1989.

Never underestimate the power of a totalitarian regime.

Within two years of that every Communist regime in Europe fell.  For every China, there's a USSR or Poland.

But China was the one regime willing to gun down its citizens.

QuoteTEHRAN, Iran – Iran's state television says the supreme leader has ordered an investigation into claims of fraud in last week's presidential election.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is ordering the powerful Guardian Council to examine the allegations by pro-reform candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi, who claims widespread vote rigging in Friday's election. The government declared President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the winner in a landslide victory.

It is a stunning turnaround for Iran's most powerful figure, who previously welcomed the results.

Mousavi wrote an appeal Sunday to the Guardian Council, a powerful 12-member body that's a pillar of Iran's theocracy. Mousavi also met Sunday with Khamenei.

Mousavi's backers have waged three days of street protests in Tehran.

Quote from: Jos Theelen on June 15, 2009, 04:29:52 AM
Are they surprised about the anger of the people?

QuoteTEHRAN, Iran – Iran's state television says the supreme leader has ordered an investigation into claims of fraud in last week's presidential election.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is ordering the powerful Guardian Council to examine the allegations by pro-reform candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi, who claims widespread vote rigging in Friday's election. The government declared President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the winner in a landslide victory.

It is a stunning turnaround for Iran's most powerful figure, who previously welcomed the results.

Mousavi wrote an appeal Sunday to the Guardian Council, a powerful 12-member body that's a pillar of Iran's theocracy. Mousavi also met Sunday with Khamenei.

Mousavi's backers have waged three days of street protests in Tehran.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2009, 12:23:21 AM
Going to bed tonight.  Fully expect to wake up to news of massacre.  Fantastically upsetting.

Quotereports circulated of leaked interior ministry statistics showing him as the clear victor in last Friday's polls.

The statistics, circulated on Iranian blogs and websites, claimed Mr Mousavi had won 19.1 million votes while Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had won only 5.7 million.

The two other candidates, reformist Mehdi Karoubi and hardliner Mohsen Rezai, won 13.4 million and 3.7 million respectively. The authenticity of the leaked figures could not be confirmed.

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 15, 2009, 06:03:49 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2009, 12:23:21 AM
Going to bed tonight.  Fully expect to wake up to news of massacre.  Fantastically upsetting.

I'm upset....there was no massacre.  :(

QuoteThe Iranian People Speak

The election results in Iran may reflect the will of the Iranian people. Many experts are claiming that the margin of victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the result of fraud or manipulation, but our nationwide public opinion survey of Iranians three weeks before the vote showed Ahmadinejad leading by a more than 2 to 1 margin -- greater than his actual apparent margin of victory in Friday's election.

While Western news reports from Tehran in the days leading up to the voting portrayed an Iranian public enthusiastic about Ahmadinejad's principal opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, our scientific sampling from across all 30 of Iran's provinces showed Ahmadinejad well ahead.

Independent and uncensored nationwide surveys of Iran are rare. Typically, preelection polls there are either conducted or monitored by the government and are notoriously untrustworthy. By contrast, the poll undertaken by our nonprofit organizations from May 11 to May 20 was the third in a series over the past two years. Conducted by telephone from a neighboring country, field work was carried out in Farsi by a polling company whose work in the region for ABC News and the BBC has received an Emmy award. Our polling was funded by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.

The breadth of Ahmadinejad's support was apparent in our preelection survey. During the campaign, for instance, Mousavi emphasized his identity as an Azeri, the second-largest ethnic group in Iran after Persians, to woo Azeri voters. Our survey indicated, though, that Azeris favored Ahmadinejad by 2 to 1 over Mousavi.


Much commentary has portrayed Iranian youth and the Internet as harbingers of change in this election. But our poll found that only a third of Iranians even have access to the Internet, while 18-to-24-year-olds comprised the strongest voting bloc for Ahmadinejad of all age groups.

The only demographic groups in which our survey found Mousavi leading or competitive with Ahmadinejad were university students and graduates, and the highest-income Iranians. When our poll was taken, almost a third of Iranians were also still undecided. Yet the baseline distributions we found then mirror the results reported by the Iranian authorities, indicating the possibility that the vote is not the product of widespread fraud.

Some might argue that the professed support for Ahmadinejad we found simply reflected fearful respondents' reluctance to provide honest answers to pollsters. Yet the integrity of our results is confirmed by the politically risky responses Iranians were willing to give to a host of questions. For instance, nearly four in five Iranians -- including most Ahmadinejad supporters -- said they wanted to change the political system to give them the right to elect Iran's supreme leader, who is not currently subject to popular vote. Similarly, Iranians chose free elections and a free press as their most important priorities for their government, virtually tied with improving the national economy. These were hardly "politically correct" responses to voice publicly in a largely authoritarian society.

Indeed, and consistently among all three of our surveys over the past two years, more than 70 percent of Iranians also expressed support for providing full access to weapons inspectors and a guarantee that Iran will not develop or possess nuclear weapons, in return for outside aid and investment. And 77 percent of Iranians favored normal relations and trade with the United States, another result consistent with our previous findings.

Iranians view their support for a more democratic system, with normal relations with the United States, as consonant with their support for Ahmadinejad. They do not want him to continue his hard-line policies. Rather, Iranians apparently see Ahmadinejad as their toughest negotiator, the person best positioned to bring home a favorable deal -- rather like a Persian Nixon going to China.

Allegations of fraud and electoral manipulation will serve to further isolate Iran and are likely to increase its belligerence and intransigence against the outside world. Before other countries, including the United States, jump to the conclusion that the Iranian presidential elections were fraudulent, with the grave consequences such charges could bring, they should consider all independent information. The fact may simply be that the reelection of President Ahmadinejad is what the Iranian people wanted.

Ken Ballen is president of Terror Free Tomorrow: The Center for Public Opinion, a nonprofit institute that researches attitudes toward extremism. Patrick Doherty is deputy director of the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation. The groups' May 11-20 polling consisted of 1,001 interviews across Iran and had a 3.1 percentage point margin of error.

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 15, 2009, 06:03:49 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2009, 12:23:21 AM
Going to bed tonight.  Fully expect to wake up to news of massacre.  Fantastically upsetting.

I'm upset....there was no massacre.  :(

Quote
# unconfirmed - Mashad is violent. #Iranelection3 minutes ago from web
# have spoken with Ahwaz. am told demos are not peaceful there. #Iranelection3 minutes ago from web

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 07:52:29 AM
According to the BBC plain clothes militias have been authorised to use live ammunition at any demonstrations today.

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 15, 2009, 08:47:05 AM
I can't follow a massacre via twitter. I do have my standards.

QuoteTehran. Something pretty bloody awful happened at Univsersity last night. Students up there are chanting massacre.

Quote from: Jos Theelen on June 15, 2009, 08:58:28 AM
Too bad. You missed this one.

QuoteTehran. Something pretty bloody awful happened at Univsersity last night. Students up there are chanting massacre.

Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2009, 04:10:15 AM
Make no mistake everyone. We have no friends in Iran. Our enemies are fighting our enemies.

QuoteEU leads international pressure on Iran over vote
Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:36am EDT

By Mark John

LUXEMBOURG, June 15 (Reuters) - The European Union increased pressure on Iran on Monday to agree to opposition demands to investigate President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's landslide election victory and halt a crackdown on protesters.

France, Germany and Britain led the EU campaign to persuade Iran to clarify the election result despite no sign of new pressure from the United States, their partner at talks intended to ensure Tehran does not develop nuclear weapons.

Defeated moderate candidate Mirhossein Mousavi has called for an investigation and wants the result of Friday's election annulled. Tens of thousands of his supporters gathered in Tehran on Monday after earlier protests over the outcome.

Iran's Guardian Council -- whose chairman, Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, endorsed Ahmadinejad before the vote -- said it would rule within 10 days on two official complaints it had received from Mousavi and another losing candidate, Mohsen Rezaie.

The council vets election candidates and must formally approve results for the outcome to stand.

"The German government believes the allegations of manipulation of the vote must be examined quickly by the responsible bodies to remove the doubts about this result," government spokesman Thomas Steg told reporters in Berlin.

"We are greatly concerned about what we see as an over-reaction by the security forces in cracking down on protesters, people who have the right to express their opinions."

Ahmadinejad and Interior Ministry officials have dismissed allegations the vote was rigged. The president has called the election "free and healthy".

But the outcome has alarmed Western powers trying to persuade the world's fifth-biggest oil exporter to curb nuclear work they suspect is intended to develop atomic weapons, a charge Iran denies.

"I asked today that the investigations demanded by the opposition be carried out," French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner told reporters after talks with other EU foreign ministers in Luxembourg.

The ministers were expected to issue a joint appeal later on Monday for an investigation and express concern about the use of force against demonstrators.

"There are signs of irregularities," German Chancellor Angela Merkel told a news conference in Berlin.

IMPACT ON NUCLEAR TALKS

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband made clear doubts about the fairness of the election could have an impact on talks on Iran's nuclear programme which involve France, Britain, Germany, the United States, Russia and China.

"Our serious concern is about the implications of recent events for the engagement the international community seeks with the government of Iran," Miliband said.

He regretted Iran had not responded to efforts by U.S. President Barack Obama to break the deadlock over its nuclear programme, which include looking for ways for Washington to deal directly with Iran.

The United States has said it will not comment until it has been able to review the "whole process" and the authorities' reaction, although Vice-President Joe Biden has cast doubt on the outcome and said Tehran may be suppressing free speech.

"When it comes to Iran the United States have recently stuck their necks out and are being overly cautious," said Daniel Rackowski of the Transatlantic Institute in Brussels.

"The United States probably know they will have to work with Ahmadinejad and they will be the ones doing the bulk of the negotiations, not the European Union. So I think the European Union can be more critical whereas (U.S. Secretary of State Hillary) Clinton will actually have to work with them."

EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana, who has acted as mediator in the major powers' talks with Iran, said there had been few expectations of any major change in Iranian nuclear policy before the election, but the EU was still prepared to discuss the issue with Tehran.

"I hope very much that they will get engaged," he said. "I hope very much that at the end of the day the will of the people will be respected." (Additional reporting by Julien Toyer, Sarah Marsh and Timothy Heritage; writing by Timothy Heritage; Editing by Janet Lawrence)

© Thomson Reuters 2009 All rights reserved

Quote from: KRonn on June 15, 2009, 10:01:54 AMNow with the Ayatollah calling for investigation into the voting, who knows where the truth is or what will come out of this. He could be doing that to help calm things down, give the impression that the government is genuinely looking into things. Or doing it to give that impression but with no real impact intended.

Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2009, 08:36:30 AM
An editorial in the Washington Post makes a decent argument that the election was legitimate. 

Quote
48 Hours Later: A Tipping Point In Iranian Resistance
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Ever since Mahmoud Ahmadinejad declared himself the winner of the election by a wide margin, various groups have had different reactions. On one side are Ahmadinejad supporters who have been expressing themselves in the form of showing up at a victory rally on Sunday and beating up and even killing members of the opposition. Ahmadinejad also has the support of terrorist groups--HAMAS and Hezbollah--and dictators--Chavez and Bashar Al Assad--who immediately offered their own congratulations. On the other side are the much more numerous supporters of the reformist candidate, Mir Hossein Mousavi, who have understandably been outraged about the regime's set-up election and are protesting by the millions.

But there are a number of critical elements within the current crisis that indicate that the protests can no longer be dismissed as short-term reaction, but that the crisis has passed a critical tipping point that can have permanent ramifications on the continuation of the Islamic Republic in its current form:

1. Protests have entered their third day with the sustained intensity that is historically unmatched since the Iranian revolution. Over the past thirty years--and especially, the last four--there have been many protests, strikes and boycotts in Iran by different campaigns and individuals, including journalists, the One Million Signature Campaign, Tehran bus drivers union and student coalitions throughout the country. But never since the Islamic revolution in 1979 have different campaigns united throughout cities in Iran with such sustained force and intensity to continuously challenge the Iranian regime. Three days having passed since the beginning of the protests, people are showing that they're simply not getting back inside their homes this time.

2. Democracies throughout the world have been very hesitant to accept the result of the Iranian elections. Joe Biden said Sunday morning on Meet The Press that "numbers don't add up," and France and other European countries have expressed similar kinds of doubt and issued criticisms of the regime's brutal reaction to protestors. The Iranian regime is not going to have any legitimacy or claim on democracy if other democracies withhold their unconditional endorsement of election results. Endorsement by HAMAS and Hezbollah alone won't do.

3. For the first two decades since the revolution, the Iranian regime got most of its strength from unity, partially due to Khomeini's rule before his death and the country's eight year war with Iraq. But the election of Iran's first reformist president Mohammad Khatami in 1997 jump started the formation of factions within the regime's ranks and elites. Throughout the 2000s, reformists became a major force, and the conservatives divided up between pro-diplomacy capitalistic pragmatists like another former Iranian president, Rafsanjani, and religious zealots like Ahmadinejad.

The differences between these factions have surfaced in an extraordinary way over the recent election. Following Ahmadinejad's claim of victory, Mousavi was put under house arrest after calling for the cancellation of the results because of irregularities, a call he has made at least once more since. After Ahmadinejad's victory press conference on Sunday, another reformist opponent, Mehdi Karroubi, made an unusual statement when he said, "I am announcing again that the elections should not be allowed and the results have no legitimacy or social standing... Therefore, I do not consider Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as president of the republic." As if that wasn't enough, the former head of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and third candidate in this election, Mohsen Rezaei, also issued a statement, contesting the results of the election.

The notion of losing presidential candidates criticizing the results may not be such an extraordinary concept for Westerners, but it has tremendous significance within the context of the Iranian regime. In Iranian elections, all candidates who are qualified by the Islamic Guardian Council have been either from Ayatollah's Khomeini's original circle of confidants or the leadership ranks of the 1979 revolution. These individuals have always maintained a relatively unified appearance even during the elections and quickly came to rally around the winner after the election. But the current resistance on the part all three candidates shows a deep and permanent crack within the Iranian regime that demonstrates that it no longer speaks with one voice and acts with one hand.

4. But perhaps the most significant and extraordinary trend that hints at a fundamental change in the history and future of the Iranian regime is criticism of the all powerful Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei. The first major criticism of him was made by Rafsanjani, the former Iranian president and now head of Majles-e Khobregaan (Assembly of Experts), which has the power of appointing or removing the Supreme Leader. In response to Ahmadinejad's accusation during Iran's first televised debate that Rafsanjani was corrupt and the "puppet master" behind attacks against him, Rafsanjani wrote a letter to khamenei, showing outrage and demanding time on state run TV to defend himself. But in doing so, he made his first implicit criticism of Khamenei by saying, "If the system cannot or does not want to confront such ugly and sin-infected phenomena as insults, lies, and false allegations made in that debate, how can we consider ourselves followers of the sacred Islamic system?" He was talking about Khamenei.

What is important to note is that all the candidates who are contesting the results of the election are also opposing the Supreme Leader, because he has so far endorsed the results, twice. But an event that happened on Sunday and was even more unimaginable was for Ayatollah Mohajerani (the Former Minister of Culture and Islamic Guidance under President Khatami) to appear on BBC Persian (which is not even a legal channel in Iran) to say that Velayate Faghih (the cleric rule, and in this context, the Supreme Leader) can be replaced for dishonesty, implying that the Supreme Leader is being dishonest. That is the most blasphemous criticism that anyone has ever made against either one of the two Supreme Leaders since the revolution.

Finally, the Foundation for Democracy in Iran is reporting that Rafsanjani is in Qom to convene an emergency meeting of the Assembly of Experts, to debate the legitimacy of Khamenei's decision to certify the election results. These events not only show that khamenei's days may be numbered, but maybe so is the legitimacy of the position of Supreme Leader entirely.

These are unpredictable times in Iran, but what is already obvious is that the protests have gone far beyond expression of any kind of short term post election outrage and entered a new phase that poses a serious threat to the stability of the Islamic Republic in its current form.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 14, 2009, 05:33:50 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 14, 2009, 05:30:33 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 14, 2009, 04:55:49 PM
the army has declared neutrality.

Source me baby.

I believe it's a rumour at this point.  If it's true then that means the regime has only paramilitary forces left.  I believe the tipping point in 1979 was when the army declared neutrality, so if it were to happen it would be very major news.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 10:14:41 AM
As of yet, no protest from the US government. <_<

Quote from: derspiess on June 15, 2009, 11:05:59 AM
Best thing we can do is keep our mouths shut. 

Quote from: The Brain on June 15, 2009, 11:08:56 AM
The Iranians made their bed, I say let them eat it.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 11:11:47 AM

Quote from: The Brain on June 15, 2009, 11:08:56 AM
The Iranians made their bed, I say let them eat it.

What do you think their bed is made of?

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 11:11:47 AM

Quote from: The Brain on June 15, 2009, 11:08:56 AM
The Iranians made their bed, I say let them eat it.

What do you think their bed is made of?

Quoteauthor=jimmy olsen link=topic=1149.msg54857#msg54857 date=1245080170]
Thought this article was pretty interesting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-sedaei/48-hours-later-a-tipping_b_215440.html

48 Hours Later: A Tipping Point In Iranian Resistance
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Quote from: Sheilbh on June 14, 2009, 09:45:59 PMThen in 2004 Ahmadi spends his election attacking Rafsanjani rather fiercely (and getting publicly told off for it by Khameini) and he's reprised that this year, denouncing the corruption of Rafsanjani's two terms in office and declaring that he's led the only clean Presidency in the Islamic Republic's history.  I wonder the degree to which this is, at the top, a very personal (and all the more bitter for it) fight that started over 20 years ago about Khomeinism and that was subsumed while he was alive.

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 15, 2009, 10:29:10 AM

Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2009, 08:36:30 AM
An editorial in the Washington Post makes a decent argument that the election was legitimate. 

Yet, the incredible shift of support from the last election to this one, where all other candidates other than Moussavi were wiped out and traditionnal bases of support of all candidates are twisted beyond recognition do hint at some form of caution. The voting pattern, which shows a constant ratio of support in favour of Ahmadinejad *regardless of regional variation* seem a bit strong to swallow, especially in Iran.

Quote from: saskganesh on June 15, 2009, 11:42:27 AM
any western observers calling for a recount yet? would that be too embarrassing for the ayatollahs? and would that be a bad thing?

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2009, 11:42:11 AM
Notice all the Islamist green flags in the crowd.

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2009, 11:42:11 AM
Notice all the Islamist green flags in the crowd.

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2009, 11:45:52 AM
That's Mousavi's color...

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 15, 2009, 11:45:06 AM
:huh: ?

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2009, 11:47:23 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2009, 11:45:52 AM
That's Mousavi's color...

I see.  Interesting choice on his part.

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2009, 11:49:27 AM

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 15, 2009, 11:45:06 AM
:huh: ?

Green is the color of Islam, that is what the Green stripe in the Iranian flag represents.

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 15, 2009, 12:05:24 PM
I know, but it is also the colour of many other things (hope, renewal) which have also been invoked during his campaign. To ascribe - or hint at - possible nefarious meanings based on this seems a little short. The clerics have tried to forbid wearing green at political rallies and yet no one will think of accusing them of being atheists...

Quote from: The Brain on June 15, 2009, 12:10:28 PM
Hint: it's fucking Iran. Everyone supports muslim whackjobs.

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2009, 12:09:09 PM
Well the green flag is one of the most recognizable symbols on Islam in the world so when you see a massive rally of Muslims in a Muslim country carrying green flags the meaning of that symbol is pretty instantaneous.  If they are waving a green flag to mean something else, they are intending it to be misleading then which is not impossible considering this is an Islamic Republic.

It would be sort of like a massive rally in Russia with people waving red flags.  The symbolism would be hard to miss, even if red could theoretically also represent other things.

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 15, 2009, 12:13:22 PM
Yes, but consider a moment who they are targetting... Your analogy would make sense if your red-wearing protesters were demonstrating in China or the Soviet Union. Then you have to go beyond the red = commie analysis.

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 15, 2009, 10:29:10 AM
Yet, the incredible shift of support from the last election to this one, where all other candidates other than Moussavi were wiped out and traditionnal bases of support of all candidates are twisted beyond recognition do hint at some form of caution. The voting pattern, which shows a constant ratio of support in favour of Ahmadinejad *regardless of regional variation* seem a bit strong to swallow, especially in Iran.

QuoteIt is personally yes, but I doubt it has much to do with theoretical interpretations of Khomeinism.

QuoteNotice all the Islamist green flags in the crowd.

QuoteWell the green flag is one of the most recognizable symbols on Islam in the world so when you see a massive rally of Muslims in a Muslim country carrying green flags the meaning of that symbol is pretty instantaneous.  If they are waving a green flag to mean something else, they are intending it to be misleading then which is not impossible considering this is an Islamic Republic.

QuoteI am not making an analysis I was just pointing out it was interesting they were protesting the election waving green Islamist flags.

QuoteI just came away from the protest. It was an incredible sight. A huge crowd, hundreds of thousands of people maybe even millions of people there in defiance of open threats from the government that they should not assemble.

While I was at the demonstration the security forces were staying well away from it. We were even able to film and usually the secret police come in straight away and stop you. But the crowds were so enormous they were stepping back. As we drove out we saw rows of riot police stationed on the highway.

If they have opened fire, that is going to really ratchet up this, it could be frankly a huge political mistake for those running this country.

QuoteMore to the point, however, the poll that appears in today's op-ed shows a 2 to 1 lead in the thinnest sense: 34 percent of those polled said they'd vote for Ahmadinejad, 14 percent for Mousavi. That leaves 52 percent unaccounted for. In all, 27 percent expressed no opinion in the election, and another 15 percent refused to answer the question at all. Six  Eight percent said they'd vote for none of the listed candidates; the rest for minor candidates.

One should be enormously wary of the current value of a poll taken so far before such a heated contest, particularly one where more than half of voters did not express an opinion.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 11:43:59 AM

Quote from: saskganesh on June 15, 2009, 11:42:27 AM
any western observers calling for a recount yet? would that be too embarrassing for the ayatollahs? and would that be a bad thing?

The EU, take a look at the article I posted in reply 170.

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2009, 12:20:11 PM

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 15, 2009, 12:13:22 PM
Yes, but consider a moment who they are targetting... Your analogy would make sense if your red-wearing protesters were demonstrating in China or the Soviet Union. Then you have to go beyond the red = commie analysis.

I am not making an analysis I was just pointing out it was interesting they were protesting the election waving green Islamist flags.

It strikes me like a Medieval peasant revolt where they attack the nobles in the name of the King.

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2009, 11:49:27 AM

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 15, 2009, 11:45:06 AM
:huh: ?

Green is the color of Islam, that is what the Green stripe in the Iranian flag represents.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 01:15:39 PM
It's the Islamic Republic of Iran, they're not protesting against the Islamic part, they're protesting in favor of the Republic part so it makes sense for them to wrap themselves in Islam to legitimize themselves.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 12:31:47 PM
:lol:  It's interesting and lucky for Mousavi.  Apparently colours are assigned randomly to different candidates by the electoral commission.  He happened to get green which in Shia Islam is a symbol of being a descendant of the Prophet, which Mousavi is.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 15, 2009, 01:20:22 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 12:31:47 PM
:lol:  It's interesting and lucky for Mousavi.  Apparently colours are assigned randomly to different candidates by the electoral commission.  He happened to get green which in Shia Islam is a symbol of being a descendant of the Prophet, which Mousavi is.

Is there anyone in the middle east who doesn't claim to be a decendent of that guy?

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 15, 2009, 01:20:22 PM
Is there anyone in the middle east who doesn't claim to be a decendent of that guy?

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 15, 2009, 01:20:22 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 12:31:47 PM
:lol:  It's interesting and lucky for Mousavi.  Apparently colours are assigned randomly to different candidates by the electoral commission.  He happened to get green which in Shia Islam is a symbol of being a descendant of the Prophet, which Mousavi is.

Is there anyone in the middle east who doesn't claim to be a decendent of that guy?

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 15, 2009, 01:20:22 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 12:31:47 PM
:lol:  It's interesting and lucky for Mousavi.  Apparently colours are assigned randomly to different candidates by the electoral commission.  He happened to get green which in Shia Islam is a symbol of being a descendant of the Prophet, which Mousavi is.

Is there anyone in the middle east who doesn't claim to be a decendent of that guy?

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2009, 02:00:54 PM
For all of Islam's attempts to avoid worshipping big Mo as a God they sure seem to do everything but.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2009, 01:59:57 PM
I think the king of Morocco does as well.

Quote:lol:  It's interesting and lucky for Mousavi.  Apparently colours are assigned randomly to different candidates by the electoral commission.  He happened to get green which in Shia Islam is a symbol of being a descendant of the Prophet, which Mousavi is.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 02:04:03 PM

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2009, 02:00:54 PM
For all of Islam's attempts to avoid worshipping big Mo as a God they sure seem to do everything but.

There's reports that the Basij's base in central Tehran, in Azadi Square, has been stormed and is currently on fire, the commander's apparently dead.  The Basij are the militia of the Revolutionary Guard and have grown under Ahmedinejad's time in office.  It was speculated a while ago that he was building them up to repress any civil disorder.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 15, 2009, 02:14:01 PM
The BBC correspondents seem to think that the demonstrating crowds are in the "hundreds of thousands". If they are correct this could be significant.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 15, 2009, 02:14:01 PM
The BBC correspondents seem to think that the demonstrating crowds are in the "hundreds of thousands". If they are correct this could be significant.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 02:17:58 PM
By the protesters or by a rival militia group?

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 02:04:03 PM

There's reports that the Basij's base in central Tehran, in Azadi Square, has been stormed and is currently on fire, the commander's apparently dead.  The Basij are the militia of the Revolutionary Guard and have grown under Ahmedinejad's time in office.  It was speculated a while ago that he was building them up to repress any civil disorder.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 15, 2009, 02:14:01 PM
The BBC correspondents seem to think that the demonstrating crowds are in the "hundreds of thousands". If they are correct this could be significant.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 02:04:03 PM

There's reports that the Basij's base in central Tehran, in Azadi Square, has been stormed and is currently on fire, the commander's apparently dead.  The Basij are the militia of the Revolutionary Guard and have grown under Ahmedinejad's time in office.  It was speculated a while ago that he was building them up to repress any civil disorder.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 02:59:40 PM

The crowd was apparently 5 miles long.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 02:46:42 PM
Nice collection of photos can be found at the Boston Globe site.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_disputed_election.html

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 03:02:50 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 02:04:03 PM

There's reports that the Basij's base in central Tehran, in Azadi Square, has been stormed and is currently on fire, the commander's apparently dead.  The Basij are the militia of the Revolutionary Guard and have grown under Ahmedinejad's time in office.  It was speculated a while ago that he was building them up to repress any civil disorder.

I can't find this anywhere, got a source?

QuoteLater, a group of demonstrators with fuel canisters set a small fire at a compound of a volunteer militia linked to Iran's powerful Revolutionary Guard as the crowd dispersed from the square. As some tried to storm the building, people on the roof could be seen firing directly at the demonstrators at the northern edge of the square, away from the heart of the rally.

Quote from: lustindarkness on June 15, 2009, 02:54:30 PM
What peaceful people.

Quote from: alfred russel on June 15, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
Does anyone know why the police and their gear have "Police" written on them in English?

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 03:19:29 PM
TIME is estimating that the protest in Tehran today had 2-3 million people.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904764,00.html

Quote from: clandestino on June 15, 2009, 03:34:23 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 03:19:29 PM
TIME is estimating that the protest in Tehran today had 2-3 million people.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904764,00.html

They are talking about 10,000 in Theeran over here.

Numbers...

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:47:37 PM
Can't be arsed to read the entire thread, but I hope someone has already pointed out that Mousavi is a chauvinist antisemite who believes in the nuclear programme and destruction of Israel, right?

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 15, 2009, 03:48:53 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:47:37 PM
Can't be arsed to read the entire thread, but I hope someone has already pointed out that Mousavi is a chauvinist antisemite who believes in the nuclear programme and destruction of Israel, right?

I guess you prefer ahmedinidong then.

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:51:06 PM
Not really. I prefer antisemitic muslim fundamentalist retards killing each other, though. :)

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 03:19:29 PM
TIME is estimating that the protest in Tehran today had 2-3 million people.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904764,00.html

Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2009, 03:53:28 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:51:06 PM
Not really. I prefer antisemitic muslim fundamentalist retards killing each other, though. :)

I don't know how much control Mousavi has over the movement at this point.  It looks increasingly likely that in a post-Revolution Iran the Supreme Ruler and the Guardian Council might be less powerful (which would be true if the Revolution doesn't work, anyway), with honest elections and presumably increasing liberalism.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 04:15:33 PM
Huffpo has linked to some video of militiamen firing on the crowd!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/13/iran-demonstrations-viole_n_215189.html

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:47:37 PM
Can't be arsed to read the entire thread, but I hope someone has already pointed out that Mousavi is a chauvinist antisemite who believes in the nuclear programme and destruction of Israel, right?

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 15, 2009, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 04:15:33 PM
Huffpo has linked to some video of militiamen firing on the crowd!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/13/iran-demonstrations-viole_n_215189.html

fap fap fap fap fap.

But I feel dirty visiting the huffington post.  :(

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2009, 04:33:02 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:47:37 PM
Can't be arsed to read the entire thread, but I hope someone has already pointed out that Mousavi is a chauvinist antisemite who believes in the nuclear programme and destruction of Israel, right?

I think it was pointed out that he was cleared to run for President, yes.

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 15, 2009, 05:04:39 PM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 15, 2009, 04:33:02 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:47:37 PM
Can't be arsed to read the entire thread, but I hope someone has already pointed out that Mousavi is a chauvinist antisemite who believes in the nuclear programme and destruction of Israel, right?

I think it was pointed out that he was cleared to run for President, yes.

Indeed; but while Mousavi isn't Obama's Second Coming, I get the feeling, from the interviews, that the movement threatens in a sense to get beyond Mousavi himself.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 02:17:58 PM
There's reports that the Basij's base in central Tehran, in Azadi Square, has been stormed and is currently on fire, the commander's apparently dead.  The Basij are the militia of the Revolutionary Guard and have grown under Ahmedinejad's time in office.  It was speculated a while ago that he was building them up to repress any civil disorder.

QuoteI can't find this anywhere, got a source?

QuoteIndeed; but while Mousavi isn't Obama's Second Coming, I get the feeling, from the interviews, that the movement threatens in a sense to get beyond Mousavi himself.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 05:39:29 PM
The BBC's done a good job, the news channels here aren't doing nearly as well in my opinion.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2009, 05:46:36 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 05:39:29 PM
The BBC's done a good job, the news channels here aren't doing nearly as well in my opinion.

Are (were) US reporters even allowed in the country?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2009, 05:46:36 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 05:39:29 PM
The BBC's done a good job, the news channels here aren't doing nearly as well in my opinion.

Are (were) US reporters even allowed in the country?

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 05:50:25 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2009, 05:46:36 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 05:39:29 PM
The BBC's done a good job, the news channels here aren't doing nearly as well in my opinion.

Are (were) US reporters even allowed in the country?

Christiane Amanpour (sp?) is out there at the minute.  Americans are allowed to report from Iran, yeah.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2009, 05:42:01 PM
How much can the Secret Police clamp down now?

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 04:36:30 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 15, 2009, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 04:15:33 PM
Huffpo has linked to some video of militiamen firing on the crowd!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/13/iran-demonstrations-viole_n_215189.html

fap fap fap fap fap.

But I feel dirty visiting the huffington post.  :(

Can't blame you. Try queerty.com for top news. :)

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 15, 2009, 06:12:08 PM
[

I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.

Quote from: katmai on June 15, 2009, 06:26:22 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 15, 2009, 06:12:08 PM
[

I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.

So that is how you broke the leg!

Quote from: Scipio on June 15, 2009, 06:06:44 PM
The Obama administration has reassigned Dennis Ross, the US envoy to Iran.  Totally unrelated note:  he is Jewish.

Quote from: derspiess on June 15, 2009, 10:40:52 PM

Quote from: Scipio on June 15, 2009, 06:06:44 PM
The Obama administration has reassigned Dennis Ross, the US envoy to Iran.  Totally unrelated note:  he is Jewish.

Make no mistake.  Teh Joos are still running the show.  Why, them Jews are keeping Rev. Wright from seeing Obama: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/world_us/20090612_Wright___Jews__keep_him_from_Obama.html    :D

Quote from: Jaron on June 15, 2009, 11:02:16 PM
Rev. Wright is a disgrace. I'm glad Hussein put some distance with threw him under the bus.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2009, 11:06:51 PM
Can't you two have a lover's quarrel somewhere else?  Jesus. 

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2009, 11:18:38 PM
It's true. It would have been better if I'd posted another picture of a bloodied protester for us all to stare at from the comfort of our own homes.

Quote from: katmai on June 15, 2009, 11:33:32 PM
If we chip in you promise to go and not come back?

QuoteTEHRAN, Iran - Iran's powerful Guardian Council is ready to recount specific ballot boxes in last week's disputed presidential elections, a council spokesman said Tuesday, another twist in an election that has touched off widespread protests.

State television quoted Abbas Ali Kadkhodaei as saying that the recount would be limited to voting sites where candidates claim irregularities took place. It was not clear which or how many voting sites would be affected.

Quote from: Hansmeister on June 16, 2009, 06:47:46 AM
Pretty fucking pathetic.

Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2009, 07:47:00 AM
Sounds pretty good to me.  You do not want it to sound like the protests are somehow a US backed thing or that may undermine them.

What should he have said?  Personally I think it would have been better if he said nothing at all about it but this seems pretty harmless.

Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2009, 07:47:00 AM

Quote from: Hansmeister on June 16, 2009, 06:47:46 AM
Pretty fucking pathetic.

Sounds pretty good to me.  You do not want it to sound like the protests are somehow a US backed thing or that may undermine them.

What should he have said?  Personally I think it would have been better if he said nothing at all about it but this seems pretty harmless.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 15, 2009, 11:29:46 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2009, 11:18:38 PM
It's true. It would have been better if I'd posted another picture of a bloodied protester for us all to stare at from the comfort of our own homes.

I'd be surprised if there were a lot of people on this board who know me that think that I wouldn't be protesting in Iran if I could be.

Quote from: Tamas on June 16, 2009, 07:49:13 AM
Yes, Ahmaninjajihad and his people must be very eager to associate the protesters with the Great Satan and the Joos. So Israel and USA should just STFU on the whole issue.

Quote from: Neil on June 16, 2009, 08:06:48 AM
Given that both the government and the opposition are steadfast in their undying enmity for both the US and Israel, what difference does it make?  Better the devil we know than a new, far more extremist devil.

Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2009, 08:07:53 AM

Quote from: Neil on June 16, 2009, 08:06:48 AM
Given that both the government and the opposition are steadfast in their undying enmity for both the US and Israel, what difference does it make?  Better the devil we know than a new, far more extremist devil.

It makes a difference because they are at each other's throats and it serves our interests that they fight amongst themselves.

Quote from: Neil on June 16, 2009, 08:09:29 AM
They'll do that now no matter what.  Violence is going to ensue.  A lot of our enemies are going to get busted up.

Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2009, 08:13:02 AM

Quote from: Neil on June 16, 2009, 08:09:29 AM
They'll do that now no matter what.  Violence is going to ensue.  A lot of our enemies are going to get busted up.

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.  I don't want Obama to say anything to distract them from the important business of shooting each other.

Quote from: katmai on June 15, 2009, 11:33:32 PM
If we chip in you promise to go and not come back?

QuoteIran 'to hold election recount'

Iran's powerful Guardian Council says it is ready to recount disputed votes from Friday's presidential poll.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's re-election is being contested by rival Mir Hossein Mousavi and other moderate candidates, who are seeking a rerun.

The BBC's Jon Leyne in Tehran says they may not accept the recount offer.

Several people died in a protest on Monday and Mr Mousavi urged followers not to take part in a rally planned for Tuesday, amid fears of new violence.

"This headquarters calls on people to avoid the trap of planned clashes," a Mousavi spokesman told AFP news agency.

The authorities announced tough new restrictions on foreign media, requiring journalists to obtain explicit permission before covering any story. Journalists have also been banned from attending or reporting on any unauthorised demonstration.

Our correspondent says they are the most sweeping restrictions he has ever encountered reporting anywhere.

The march was due to have taken place in Tehran's Vali Asr Square at the same time as a demonstration there by supporters of President Ahmadinejad.

VOTE RECOUNT
Jon Leyne Reporting from Tehran The more I see this announcement about being willing to recount ballots, the more I think it is just a political ruse to try and wrong-foot the opposition. They have offered a recount, but they have not said who is going to carry it out. Maybe the same people who did the election count to start with.

In any case, the opposition says there were so many other irregularities, that a recount alone would not satisfy them. For example, many more ballot papers were issued than counted, they say. Some people did not get enough ballot papers so they could not vote in areas loyal to the opposition. Polling stations were closed early, and so on and so forth.

Thousands of the president's followers have converged there in a show of strength, cramming into tree-lined boulevards, some waving the national flag, as well as ones of orange, yellow and green.

'Missing ballots'

The Guardian Council - Iran's top legislative body - said votes would be recounted in areas contested by the losing candidates.

But a spokesman for the council told state television it would not annul the election - as moderate candidates have demanded.

The opposition says millions of ballots may have gone astray.

Monday's protest involved hundreds of thousands of people and was one of the largest since the Iranian revolution 30 years ago.

A report on state radio said "thugs" staged an attack at the end of the "illegal" rally as people were heading home "peacefully".

"Several thugs wanted to attack a military post and vandalise public property in the vicinity of Azadi Square," the radio said, referring to the site of the protest.

"Unfortunately seven people were killed and several others wounded in the incident."

Hospital officials later put the number of dead at eight.

Dozens of people have been arrested since the protests began. Mohammad Ali Abtahi, a close aide of ex-President Mohammad Khatami, was detained at his home in Tehran on Tuesday.

Those detained also include prominent journalist and academic Ahmad Zeidabadi. His wife says he was picked up in the middle of the night on Saturday.



"There is no explanation from the authorities about why he was arrested or where he is," she told the BBC.

Meanwhile, Iranian state television said the "main agents" behind the unrest had been detained, and guns and explosives seized.

There are reports of fresh demonstrations at Tehran University - one of the main centres of tension in recent days. About 120 university lecturers have resigned.

The powerful Speaker of parliament, Ali Larijani, has condemned an attack by police and militia on a student dormitory.

Iranian media quoted him as saying: "The interior minister is responsible in this regard."

Unrest has been reported in other parts of Iran. One of Mr Mousavi's websites said a student had died on Monday in clashes with hardliners in the southern city of Shiraz.

Foreign concern

Our correspondent says the authorities appear to be weakening in their support for President Ahmadinejad.

The country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has ordered an inquiry into the allegations of vote-rigging.

The authorities' handling of the protests has drawn international criticism.

EU foreign ministers expressed "serious concern" and called for an inquiry into the conduct of the election.

US President Barack Obama said he was "deeply troubled" by the violence in Iran.

Meanwhile, President Ahmadinejad arrived in Russia on Tuesday.

He told a regional summit that the "age of empires" had ended, but made no mention of the protests.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 05:36:06 PM
I mean the Islamic Republic doesn't rig elections by stuffing ballot boxes, historically they've rigged the election before the campaign can start. 

Quote

Leading Iranian reformist arrested, his office says
Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:49am EDT

TEHRAN, June 16 (Reuters) - Leading Iranian reformist Mohammad Ali Abtahi was arrested on Tuesday, his office said.

Abtahi, a former vice president who backed pro-reform candidate Mehdi Karoubi in last Friday's disputed presidential election, was arrested in the morning, it said without giving further details.

Reformist sources said another prominent reformer, Saeed Hajjarian, was arrested on Monday.

Hajjarian is an ally of moderate Mirhossein Mousavi, who has formally appealed the result of the election which showed hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had won by a landslide.

Separately, the semi-official Fars News Agency quoted a senior police official as saying some "anti-revolutionary" people had been arrested with bomb material and weapons. (Editing by Angus MacSwan)

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 16, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
The crackdown gathers steam.  <_<

Quote from: KRonn on June 16, 2009, 11:20:36 AM
Separately, the semi-official Fars News Agency quoted a senior police official as saying some "anti-revolutionary" people had been arrested with bomb material and weapons.

Yeah, right... trumped up "evidence" is exactly what I was thinking when I heard this story this morning.    <_<

Quote from: Tamas on June 16, 2009, 07:49:13 AM
Yes, Ahmaninjajihad and his people must be very eager to associate the protesters with the Great Satan and the Joos. So Israel and USA should just STFU on the whole issue.

Quote"We have an unconfirmed report about police intimidation. The source tells us that although he did not take part in the protests yesterday, an individual contacted his residence and left him a chilling message. The person on the phone told him that "we know that you took part in the rallies and as a result of your participation, you will be dealt with." The source says that many people are getting this message."

An Iranian posting on Twitter had a similar report earlier: "NEWS: Ppl randomly receiving calls w/ automated msg "you've participated in protest" 2 scare ppl"

Quote from: Tyr on June 16, 2009, 12:29:35 PM
A recount?
From what Iranian talking heads on TV say that will likely not do much good with the fraud being before the counting stages.
Apparently this election unlike all others before it was under the supervision of one government body for election fairness- a  body that happens to have been appointed by the current president....

I'm beginning to grow quite worried about some of my Iranian friends. Loads of them went home in the week before the election- it being the start of uni summer holidays. Several of them haven't made a peep on facebook or anywhere lately either, I hope this is just due to being in a third world country with limited net access.

Quote from: KRonn on June 16, 2009, 08:03:29 AM
Other nations have been more forceful in their words but again, for now, I still think the US is in a different position so that's why the Obama admin is reacting to events more quietly.

QuoteGrand ‌Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, a top dissident cleric who was Ayatollah Khomeini's designated successor before falling out of favour with the regime, has issued a statement denouncing election results that "no one in their right mind can believe" and blasting the "astonishing violence" wrought on the protesters in full view of the press.

Key point: "A government not respecting people's vote has no religious or political legitimacy".

The statement, in Farsi, was posted on Montazeri's official website. A rough English translation is here.

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2009, 12:28:39 PM
I like the twitter report better. It is so raw and compelling!

Quote from: alfred russel on June 16, 2009, 12:45:19 PM
Is there anything that keeps me from being a twitter reporter (except not having a twitter account)? I could report this story, and dozens of others, depending on how much time I want to kill:

"Last night, my brother and I went out to the protests. We got separated, there was some shooting, and I can't find him. He never came home last night. I'm so worried."

QuoteOur correspondent in Tehran reports that all of Tehran is shouting "Allah-o-Akbar" from rooftops. He reports that Mohammad Reza Shajarian, a popular Iranian singer, has joind the protesters in streets holding green banners.

Mohajerani, a former Iranian cultural minster now based in london, has asked people to go to friday pray this week and shout pro-mousavi slogans.

Three motorbikes set on fire in Vanak Square right now.

Quote from: alfred russel on June 16, 2009, 12:45:19 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2009, 12:28:39 PM
I like the twitter report better. It is so raw and compelling!

Is there anything that keeps me from being a twitter reporter (except not having a twitter account)? I could report this story, and dozens of others, depending on how much time I want to kill:

"Last night, my brother and I went out to the protests. We got separated, there was some shooting, and I can't find him. He never came home last night. I'm so worried."

Quote from: alfred russel on June 16, 2009, 12:45:19 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2009, 12:28:39 PM
I like the twitter report better. It is so raw and compelling!

Is there anything that keeps me from being a twitter reporter (except not having a twitter account)? I could report this story, and dozens of others, depending on how much time I want to kill:

"Last night, my brother and I went out to the protests. We got separated, there was some shooting, and I can't find him. He never came home last night. I'm so worried."

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2009, 12:51:50 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on June 16, 2009, 12:45:19 PM
Is there anything that keeps me from being a twitter reporter (except not having a twitter account)? I could report this story, and dozens of others, depending on how much time I want to kill:

"Last night, my brother and I went out to the protests. We got separated, there was some shooting, and I can't find him. He never came home last night. I'm so worried."

Well, why don't you?

Quote from: alfred russel on June 16, 2009, 01:09:53 PM
I don't have a twitter account, and it is also kind of lame. But until proven otherwise, that is what I'd assume that is what a lot of the twitter reporting actually is.

Quote
The statistics, circulated on Iranian blogs and websites, claimed Mr Mousavi had won 19.1 million votes while Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had won only 5.7 million.

The two other candidates, reformist Mehdi Karoubi and hardliner Mohsen Rezai, won 13.4 million and 3.7 million respectively. The authenticity of the leaked figures could not be confirmed.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 16, 2009, 12:40:07 PM

A few questions I'm not sure about.

I've read a few reports that the police are starting to seem a lot more sympathetic to the protestors, some even smiling and waving now.  Apparently women have played a key role as they run to the front of the protest and chant 'we're all Iranian'.  Would that matter if it were true that the police were beginning to sympathise?

Similarly what's going on in the Revolutionary Guards.  I mean they're the part of the Iranian state we know least about.  Are they loyal above all to Khameini or to Ahmadinejad?  I've read a couple of reports that many of the RG on the street of Teheran sound like they've been shipped in.  If the Teheran Bajis and RG start to be less keen on repressing protests how significant would that be?

What's going on in the provinces?  So far I've seen clips that are allegedly from cities outside Teheran but journalists can't get there (indeed they're now being held in hotels and offices until their visas expire, which they do in the next day or two) and I've read that a Bajis base in Mashad has been burned down.  Are there protests there?  Or is the country quiet?

Given that today's protest was meant to be cancelled because there were a lot of rumours of a trap and then hastily re-arranged to follow a different route apparently again hundreds of thousands turned out which is impressive. 

QuoteWhat's going on in the provinces?  So far I've seen clips that are allegedly from cities outside Teheran but journalists can't get there (indeed they're now being held in hotels and offices until their visas expire, which they do in the next day or two) and I've read that a Bajis base in Mashad has been burned down.  Are there protests there?  Or is the country quiet?

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2009, 01:14:02 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on June 16, 2009, 01:09:53 PM
I don't have a twitter account, and it is also kind of lame. But until proven otherwise, that is what I'd assume that is what a lot of the twitter reporting actually is.

I totally agree; I'd never turn to twitter for news...well really anything.

Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2009, 10:45:06 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 16, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
The crackdown gathers steam.  <_<

Shocking.

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 16, 2009, 02:14:12 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2009, 01:14:02 PM

I totally agree; I'd never turn to twitter for news...well really anything.

I always knew you are a bright lad.  :)

Quote from: derspiess on June 16, 2009, 03:00:40 PM
Get a room, you two :D

Quote from: derspiess on June 16, 2009, 03:00:40 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 16, 2009, 02:14:12 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2009, 01:14:02 PM

I totally agree; I'd never turn to twitter for news...well really anything.

I always knew you are a bright lad.  :)

Get a room, you two :D

Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2009, 01:30:24 PM
Once you start threatening people, if the protest has a decent chance of success that will just encourage them to back the protests further as their only chance to escape retribution by the regime.  If done poorly attempts to intimidate people can have the exact opposite effect.

QuoteLaura Secor: The Supreme Leader's Next Move

Today begins with seemingly contradictory news from Iran: the Guardian Council, a body of clerics that holds more power than the President or the parliament, has agreed to recount some of the votes from Friday's disputed election. At the same time, the regime has expelled some members of the foreign press, forbidden Iranian journalists from leaving their offices, and arrested major reformist figures, including the former Vice-President Mohammad Ali Abtahi, the former member of parliament Behzad Nabavi, and the reformist political strategist Saeed Hajjarian. These are men with impeccable revolutionary credentials—Hajjarian and Nabavi were founders of the Islamic Republic's intelligence apparatus—and unquestionable loyalty to the constitutional order. What is going on here?

The Guardian Council's gambit, while not entirely without promise, should be viewed with some skepticism. First, the council is not recounting all the ballots, if they can be found; it is reviewing only disputed ballot boxes, whatever that means. Second, this is not a disinterested review of the election results; in Iranian politics, the Guardian Council is essentially the practical hand of the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, the organ by which he most directly intervenes in the affairs of state. Through it, he has veto power over all legislation and can disqualify candidates for public office at will. Its members are directly or indirectly appointed by the Supreme Leader, and manifestly beholden to him. So this is not a neutral intervention; it is Khamenei's next move.

That's what makes it interesting and, for the moment, perplexing. What are Khamenei's options? With protesters yelling "Down with the dictator" in the streets of nearly every city in Iran, his position could not be more precarious. He has staked his very legitimacy, and perhaps that of the edifice he sits atop, on forcing Iranians to accept Ahmadinejad's supposed landslide victory. He can continue to try to force that down their throats with a show of raw power, or he can bend, which would show the opposition that he and the system are not really so powerful after all, that they are vulnerable to pressure from below. If he takes the latter road, it would be a radical departure from his style of governance up until now. This is the regime that violently quelled protest movements in 1999 and in 2002, crushed the hopes of reformers under Mohammad Khatami from 1997 through 2005, and apparently could not tolerate even the possibility of a Mousavi Presidency. But if he chooses the path of violence, he will transform his country into a crude and seething autocracy.

This is uncharted territory for the Islamic Republic of Iran. Until now, the regime has survived through a combination of repression and flexibility. The dispersal of power throughout a complex system, among rival political factions, and with the limited but active participation of the voting public, has allowed a basically unpopular regime to control a large population with only limited and targeted violence. There have always been loopholes and pressure points that allow the opposition and the regime to be dance partners, even if one or both of them is secretly brandishing a knife behind the other's back. That has been less true under Ahmadinejad than in the past. But the culture of the organized opposition under the Islamic Republic has tended to remain cautious and moderate. Many of the protesters of recent days are not calling for an end to the Islamic Republic. They are calling for their votes to be counted. More nights like last night, however, when some seven protesters were allegedly shot, could swiftly change that.

So is there any way Khamenei can dial the situation back even to the unhappy modus vivendi of June 11th? He could have the Guardian Council concede that the official figures were wrong, and assert that the vote was close enough, after all, to send the election to a second round between Mousavi and Ahmadinejad. If this had been the initial announcement from the Interior Ministry on June 12th, it would have been entirely plausible. Ahmadinejad has a reliable base that could comprise as much as thirty per cent of the country, as well as all the advantages of incumbency, including access to state television; his conservative challenger, Mohsen Rezai, had amassed little momentum; and, at least until Mousavi's late surge, there was a real contest between Mousavi and Karroubi for the hearts of the uncommitted. A split vote and a run-off would hardly have raised an eyebrow in the first instance. But to call one now, after having already endorsed a landslide victory for Ahmadinejad and called out riot police to enforce it, would be an admission that a brute power grab had been attempted and abandoned.

If Khamenei did allow a second round, the next question is whether he would be prepared to conduct it under some kind of monitoring that would be acceptable to both sides, and whether he would be prepared to accept the outcome, whatever it might be. There is good reason to think that Khamenei found the possibility of a Mousavi Presidency, backed by the sort of youth movement that became evident in the days just prior to the election, intolerable. Imagine him accepting a Mousavi Presidency backed by a revved-up, furious, volatile crowd—one that has just emerged victorious from street battles with the Supreme Leader's own militias. And if there could be any doubt that Mousavi would prove a stronger advocate than Khatami for the agenda of his constituency, his steadfast, courageous behavior in the last three days has put it to rest.

Who knows what sort of president Mousavi would have been, or could yet be? He is an entirely different kind of animal from reformist politicians of the past; he is identified not with students and intellectuals but with the hardscrabble war years and the defense of the poor. But as one analyst explained to me, the problem he faces is that he is perhaps the only person on the Iranian political scene whose public stature is equal to Khamenei's. He was a favorite son of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in the nineteen-eighties. Many Khomeinists in the power structure respect and support him; within the Revolutionary Guards, as well as within the upper clergy, he has a constituency. Traditional, religious people are among his supporters, too. On the morning of June 12th, he may have been the uncharismatic compromise candidate for the anyone-but-Ahmadinejad crowd. But to other voters he was then, and he has increasingly become, something else: the vehicle both for the memory of the utopia that never came, and for the hopes of a younger generation that imagines he shares its vision of the future.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 16, 2009, 03:45:57 PM
The Mousavi campaign have said they now have concrete evidence of voter fraud.

Quote from: Malthus on June 16, 2009, 05:37:52 PM
The odd part is that the Iranian public are so damn mad that they are being cheated out of Kodos.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 16, 2009, 05:44:40 PM

Quote from: Malthus on June 16, 2009, 05:37:52 PM
The odd part is that the Iranian public are so damn mad that they are being cheated out of Kodos.

Well it's about more than that now.  And I think it was about more than that earlier, which is why the election was rigged.  The regime clearly didn't have an issue with Mousavi I think they had an issue with the campaign that built up around him.

Quote from: Malthus on June 16, 2009, 05:49:35 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 16, 2009, 05:44:40 PM

Quote from: Malthus on June 16, 2009, 05:37:52 PM
The odd part is that the Iranian public are so damn mad that they are being cheated out of Kodos.

Well it's about more than that now.  And I think it was about more than that earlier, which is why the election was rigged.  The regime clearly didn't have an issue with Mousavi I think they had an issue with the campaign that built up around him.

I guess i don't understand the situation at all. What would happen if the regime held a recount or a new election, and said "okay you guys ... Kodos wins!"

I mean, what's the downside for them? He's their guy as well.

Quote from: alfred russel on June 16, 2009, 05:51:04 PM

Quote from: Malthus on June 16, 2009, 05:49:35 PMI guess i don't understand the situation at all. What would happen if the regime held a recount or a new election, and said "okay you guys ... Kodos wins!"

I mean, what's the downside for them? He's their guy as well.

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 16, 2009, 05:34:23 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.gawker.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2Fdeadspin%2F2009%2F06%2Fbuckeye.jpg&hash=4fa2d2bffdda29324bb68fab8e8865bdb75d8a5e)

Next up: Big Butter Jesus appears in Qom.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 16, 2009, 06:13:57 PM

Dunno where you found that, but well done sir.  :cool:

Quote from: Queequeg on June 16, 2009, 05:52:50 PM

Quote from: alfred russel on June 16, 2009, 05:51:04 PM

This, and the fact that Kodos is now the focus point for disaffected youth who are putting all of their hopes and dreams on him, who will either be crushed and disappointed when he doesn't pan out or will push his idealogical agenda to become more liberal.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 16, 2009, 06:10:36 PM

Quote from: Malthus on June 16, 2009, 05:49:35 PMI guess i don't understand the situation at all. What would happen if the regime held a recount or a new election, and said "okay you guys ... Kodos wins!"

I mean, what's the downside for them? He's their guy as well.

As I say I think the campaign is now threatening the foundations of the Islamic Republic to a degree that I don't think they fully realise.  I also think that Mousavi's campaign is very cleverly using the same tools that Khomeini used in 1979.  It must be chilling for Khameinei, who like Mousavi, was around and remembered that Khomeini encouraged the people to stand on their roofs of a night and chant 'Allah akbar' to build unity and remind the Shah that they were still there and still angry.  Right now that's happening and it's reminding the Supreme Leader.

QuoteDuring the revolution that deposed the shah, the rooftops rang with nightly cries of "Allahu akbar" ("God is great"). In recent nights, the same cry has reverberated across the capital. The slogan has also been adopted during protests to afford protection to demonstrators—it would be shocking indeed for police or militias in a purportedly Islamic state to attack crowds openly professing their devotion. Displaying respect for religion may also be an indication of the protesters' hope that the divided clerical elite will come down against Ahmadinejad.

Another slogan that has been co-opted is the Muslim testament that "there is no God but God." This phrase is a subtle jab at the authority of the supreme leader and head of state, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. In Iran, the supreme leader has enormous power—he even has authority to overrule Sharia law. Consequently, there are some pious believers who oppose the theocratic state, rejecting what they see as a usurpation of the authority of God's words. Others, secularists and liberals, employ the same slogans to further their own goals. By keeping their language general and inoffensive, they avoid alienating potential allies.

In 1977 and 1978, protesters killed while opposing the shah were commemorated as martyrs. Services memorializing their passing then sparked fresh protests. On Monday, fallen protesters were already being referred to as martyrs within Iran. Another slogan from the '70s has returned: "He who kills my brother will be killed by me..."

QuoteKhamenei on the Ropes?

Robert Baer served in the CIA as a field operative from 1976 to 1997. His latest book is The Devil We Know: Dealing with the New Iranian Superpower (Crown Publishers, 2008).

In Iran nothing is ever as it seems, including presidential elections. It's arguable that Friday's election had less to do with a vote for or against Ahmadinejad than it did with a vote for or against Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei. And if the elections were stolen, it was likely in an effort to maintain Khamenei's hold on power rather than Ahmadinejad's.

Iran is not a theocracy. It is a military dictatorship headed by Khamenei and advised by a coterie of generals from the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and the Army, as well as hard-liners in the secret police. Ahmadinejad is little more than the spokesman for this group. He may have a say in the day-to-day management of the economy and other parts of Iranian administration--but all important decisions, particularly those related to Iran's national security, including rigging presidential elections, are made by Khamenei.

What makes this such a tenuous situation is that Khamenei's legitimacy has been in question from the day he succeeded Ayatollah Khomeini in 1989. It was widely understood among intelligence analysts that Khamenei did not have the religious credentials to succeed Khomeini as supreme leader, Iran's head of state who is supposed to be the most learned religious cleric. In fact, Khamenei is not even really an ayatollah--his license was in effect bought--and he has no popular religious following as other legitimate ayatollahs do. It doesn't help that Iranian leaders of Khomeini's generation have never particularly liked Khamenei and see him as a man who muscled his way into power, perhaps even  by killing Khomeini's son, the person most likely to challenge his rule.

A sure signal of Khamenei's political weakness occurred when Ahmadinejad attacked former president Rafsanjani for corruption during the election campaign. Rafsanjani is and always has been a threat to Khamenei's legitimacy. Not only is he more of a real ayatollah, but he is also Chairman of the Assembly of Experts and the Expediency Council, two powerful government bodies. The Assembly of Experts has the power to remove Khamenei and appoint a new Supreme Leader. And though facts are impossible to come by, it is almost certain that Ahmadinejad's attack on Rafsanjani could not have been made without a green light from Khamenei, who knew that charges of Rafsanjani's corruption would strike a chord with Iranians. Khamenei saw and probably still sees Rafsanjani as a threat to his power, even to his position as supreme leader, and this was an effective way to pounce.

Still, if the protests and demonstrations in Tehran cannot be controlled, we should seriously start to wonder about Khamenei's future. Rafsanjani is rumored to be in the holy city of Qum plotting against Khamenei, seeing if he has enough votes in the 86-member Assembly of Experts to remove Khamenei. A vote recount is unlikely to change the results of the election, but it could lead to more demonstrations, which backed by Rafsanjani and the other mullahs, might just end Khamenei's 20 year run.

--Robert Baer

Quote from: Fireblade on June 16, 2009, 09:12:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4vqWamoQgM

Basji firing into a crowd of protesters. :(

Quote from: Neil on June 16, 2009, 09:17:15 PM

Quote from: Fireblade on June 16, 2009, 09:12:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4vqWamoQgM

Basji firing into a crowd of protesters. :(

Not protesters.  Look at those fires.  Those are rioters, and thus deserved to be shot.

Quote from: Fireblade on June 16, 2009, 09:23:18 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 16, 2009, 09:17:15 PM

Quote from: Fireblade on June 16, 2009, 09:12:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4vqWamoQgM

Basji firing into a crowd of protesters. :(

Not protesters.  Look at those fires.  Those are rioters, and thus deserved to be shot.

Fuck you.

Quote from: Tamas on June 17, 2009, 02:22:26 AM
Also, since we only get news from Teheran: why is everyone ignoring the chance that the ignorant fools of Iran did legally elect Ahmaninjariahad as president?

Quote from: Jos Theelen on June 17, 2009, 03:23:09 AM
In China, 20 years ago, the protest could run so long, because there was a stalemate between hardliners and reformers in the communist party. Aren't we looking at the same scenario? If hardliners win, the demonstrations will be cracked down with a lot of violence. If the reformers win, Ahmedinejad will be replaced by Mousavi, some reforms will be allowed and the system will go on as if nothing happened.

Khamenei vs Rafsanjani ?

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 17, 2009, 03:46:29 AM
Who is the RG really loyal to?  We also don't know what's happening at the top and bottom of those organisations, are groups of police, say, growing more sympathetic?  Are there struggles at the top of them?

QuoteObservers claim that a power struggle is inevitable.
"A very big battle is coming. It's unavoidable," a western diplomat said. "There's a widening gulf between the two sides. There are profound divisions about which way Iran should go. It's going to get very rough."
The looming power struggle could decide whether Iran continues on a path of confrontation with the west or comes in from the cold, the diplomat said.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 17, 2009, 04:02:57 AM
Edit:  Looks like they could be ready for a big crack down.  Human rights groups are reporting that hundreds of reformists were arrested yesterday.  Internet use is being more heavily restricted and the RG is warning people not to post provocative or tension building things on the internet or they'll face prosecution.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 17, 2009, 11:19:40 AM

Ahmadinejad's rally was photoshopped to appear larger than it really was.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/17/743478/-Ahmadinejad-Rally-Photoshopped-to-Appear-Larger

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 17, 2009, 11:19:40 AM

Ahmadinejad's rally was photoshopped to appear larger than it really was.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/17/743478/-Ahmadinejad-Rally-Photoshopped-to-Appear-Larger

Quote from: Neil on June 17, 2009, 12:16:08 PM
Dailykos = lies.

Quote from: derspiess on June 17, 2009, 12:20:39 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 17, 2009, 12:16:08 PM
Dailykos = lies.

I gotta say though that some of those wacko leftie sites are doing a better job than mainstream media at covering the Iran thing.

QuoteI've just been witnessing a confrontation, in dusk and into the night, between about 15,000 supporters of Ahmadinejad - supposedly the president of Iran - who are desperate to down the supporters of Mr Mousavi, who thinks he should be the president of Iran.

There were about 10,000 Mousavi men and women on the streets, with approximately 500 Iranian special forces, trying to keep them apart.

It was interesting that the special forces - who normally take the side of Ahmadinejad's Basij militia - were there with clubs and sticks in their camouflage trousers and their purity white shirts and on this occasion the Iranian military kept them away from Mousavi's men and women.

In fact at one point, Mousavi's supporters were shouting 'thank you, thank you' to the soldiers.

One woman went up to the special forces men, who normally are very brutal with Mr Mousavi's supporters, and said 'can you protect us from the Basij?' He said 'with God's help'.

It was quite extraordinary because it looked as if the military authorities in Tehran have either taken a decision not to go on supporting the very brutal militia - which is always associated with the presidency here - or individual soldiers have made up their own mind that they're tired of being associated with the kind of brutality that left seven dead yesterday - buried, by the way secretly by the police - and indeed the seven or eight students who were killed on the university campus 24 hours earlier.

Quite a lot of policeman are beginning to smile towards the demonstrators of Mr Mousavi, who are insisting there must be a new election because Mr Ahmadinejad wasn't really elected. Quite an extraordinary scene.

There were a lot of stones thrown and quite a lot of bitter fighting, hand-to-hand but at the end of the day the special forces did keep them apart.

I haven't ever seen the Iranian security authorities behaving fairly before and it's quite impressive.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 16, 2009, 06:10:36 PM

Now we don't know the reasons that Mousavi threatened Khamenei so much. 
. . .
The other possibility is that Khameinei has next to no power and that this was done by Ahmadinejad and the IRG - though, as I say, they are the most difficult group in Iran to get any decent information on - in which case Khameinei can't make that choice anyway.

QuoteUpdate | 4:01 p.m. A reader, R.B., points us to this article on the Web site Tehran Bureau, "Iran's Rural Vote and Election Fraud." The article was written by Eric Hooglund, a professor of politics at Bates College and an expert of rural Iran. Here is how Mr. Hoogland begins his critique of the theory that Mr. Ahmadinejad won the election in Iran's rural heartland:

I just heard a CNN reporter in Tehran say that Ahmadinejad's support base was rural. Is it possible that rural Iran, where less than 35 percent of the country's population lives, provided Ahmadinejad the 63 percent of the vote he claims to have won? That would contradict my own research in Iran's villages over the past 30 years, including just recently. I do not carry out research in Iran's cities, as do foreign reporters who otherwise live in the metropolises of Europe and North America, and so I wonder how they can make such bold assertions about the allegedly extensive rural support for Ahmadinejad.

Take Bagh-e Iman, for example. It is a village of 850 households in the Zagros Mountains near the southwestern Iranian city of Shiraz. According to longtime, close friends who live there, the village is seething with moral outrage because at least two-thirds of all people over 18 years of age believe that the recent presidential election was stolen by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

When news spread on Saturday (June 13) morning that Ahmadinejad had won more than 60 percent of the vote cast the day before, the residents were in shock. The week before the vote had witnessed the most intense campaigning in the village's history, and it became evident that support for Mir-Hossein Mousavi's candidacy was overwhelming. Supporters of Ahmadinejad were even booed and mocked when they attempted rallies and had to endure scolding lectures from relatives at family gatherings. "No one would dare vote for that hypocrite," insisted Mrs. Ehsani, an elected member of the village council.

The president was very unpopular in Bagh-e Iman and in most of the other villages around Shiraz, primarily because of his failure to deliver on the reforms he promised in his successful 2005 presidential campaign.

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 17, 2009, 04:14:27 PM
Tim trying to take over my turf <_< :p

Quote from: Queequeg on June 17, 2009, 05:54:32 PM
If he doesn't post them, they burn themselves into his subconscious and cause nightmares.

Quote from: Habsburg on June 17, 2009, 08:57:18 PM
How about Timmah is our anchor, and Sheilbh is our senior international correspondent?1!?  :w00t:

QuoteHelp Shut Down Ahmadinejad's Website
I am currently supporting the efforts to shut down Ahmadinejad's website. The efforts are currently proving successful, and I have not been able to load Iran's state-run media web site so far today.

To help, simply visit pagereboot.com. Then type in the Ahmadinejad's website http://www.irib.ir/ and set it to reload once per second. Personally I am leaving a browser window open to reload this page 24 hours a day (that is 86,400 loads per day!).

According to CNN.com, Iran is doing is best to shut down pagereboot.com, but hopefully Ahmadinejad and his thugs will not be successful.

According to the Sydney Morning Herald, additional websites to shut down include President Ahmadinejad's blog ahmadinejad.ir, the Justice Ministry's justice.ir, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs' mfa.gov.ir. I have opened separate reload tabs for these websites, and currently all of them seem to be down.

I also want to applaud the efforts of several netizens to allow Iranians free access to the Internet through proxies.

Quote from: Jaron on June 17, 2009, 10:35:30 PM
I have been told it is "teh sex" :P

Quote from: garbon on June 17, 2009, 10:42:37 PM
This is a sex-free zone.

Quote from: Jaron on June 17, 2009, 10:34:10 PM
So, am I the only one who has stopped caring? :P

Quote from: The Brain on June 18, 2009, 04:09:18 AM

Quote from: Jaron on June 17, 2009, 10:34:10 PM
So, am I the only one who has stopped caring? :P

I posted that I had stopped caring many many pages ago. Can't you fucking read?

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 17, 2009, 12:44:15 PM
:)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/17/2600571.htm

QuoteI've just been witnessing a confrontation, in dusk and into the night, between about 15,000 supporters of Ahmadinejad - supposedly the president of Iran - who are desperate to down the supporters of Mr Mousavi, who thinks he should be the president of Iran.

There were about 10,000 Mousavi men and women on the streets, with approximately 500 Iranian special forces, trying to keep them apart.

It was interesting that the special forces - who normally take the side of Ahmadinejad's Basij militia - were there with clubs and sticks in their camouflage trousers and their purity white shirts and on this occasion the Iranian military kept them away from Mousavi's men and women.

In fact at one point, Mousavi's supporters were shouting 'thank you, thank you' to the soldiers.

One woman went up to the special forces men, who normally are very brutal with Mr Mousavi's supporters, and said 'can you protect us from the Basij?' He said 'with God's help'.

It was quite extraordinary because it looked as if the military authorities in Tehran have either taken a decision not to go on supporting the very brutal militia - which is always associated with the presidency here - or individual soldiers have made up their own mind that they're tired of being associated with the kind of brutality that left seven dead yesterday - buried, by the way secretly by the police - and indeed the seven or eight students who were killed on the university campus 24 hours earlier.

Quite a lot of policeman are beginning to smile towards the demonstrators of Mr Mousavi, who are insisting there must be a new election because Mr Ahmadinejad wasn't really elected. Quite an extraordinary scene.

There were a lot of stones thrown and quite a lot of bitter fighting, hand-to-hand but at the end of the day the special forces did keep them apart.

I haven't ever seen the Iranian security authorities behaving fairly before and it's quite impressive.

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 09:45:25 AM
The problem is that what the people of Iran want is war with Israel and instability in the Middle East.  The West should turn all its support to the Iranian government, and allow them to resolve the matter by any means necessary.

QuoteThe numbers at today's rally are hard to gauge, but our correspondent Saeed Kamali Dehghan, reckons there could be as many as one million people there.

I just spoke to him on a fairly good phone line from Tehran, and I managed to record most of the conversation in the audio below (it occasionally breaks up).

He said the demonstration is bigger than Monday's rally. Many are wearing black and carrying photos of those who died. Some are carry placards calling for a new election not a recount. The shops on the route are closed in support of the rally, he added.

Saeed pointed out that the rally has taken in place in South Tehran where Ahmadinejad claimed to have had a lot of support.

Quote
The Conservative candidate Mohsen Rezaei has asked those who voted for him to send in their national ID numbers, according to a contact in Iran. So far he said to have received 200,000 more numbers than the votes he won in the official results.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 18, 2009, 09:47:00 AM
I'm really surprised that the regime hasn't cracked down hard on this yet. How much longer can they allow protests this big to occur before things start to spiral out of control?

Quote
1 (Girl in street): Defending civil rights
2 (Boy next to old man): Counterbalancing poverty/deprivation
3 (Boy pushing away donation box): Nationalizing oil income
4 (Man standing on rooftop): Reducing tension in international affairs
5 (Boy sitting next to satellite dishes): Free access to information
6 (Girl sitting besides her mother): Supporting single mothers
7 (Girl with cast): Knock down violence against women
8 (Boy): Education for all
9 (Boy infront of man locking car): Increasing public safety
10 (Girl on rooftop): Ethnic and religious minority rights
11 (Man on rooftop): Supporting NGOs
12 (Girl in front of wall): Public involvement
13 (Boy and girl): We have come for change
14: Change for Iran

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 18, 2009, 09:59:33 AM
One of Mousavi's campaign adds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEfk1lDImMI

Translation

Quote
1 (Girl in street): Defending civil rights
2 (Boy next to old man): Counterbalancing poverty/deprivation
3 (Boy pushing away donation box): Nationalizing oil income
4 (Man standing on rooftop): Reducing tension in international affairs
5 (Boy sitting next to satellite dishes): Free access to information
6 (Girl sitting besides her mother): Supporting single mothers
7 (Girl with cast): Knock down violence against women
8 (Boy): Education for all
9 (Boy infront of man locking car): Increasing public safety
10 (Girl on rooftop): Ethnic and religious minority rights
11 (Man on rooftop): Supporting NGOs
12 (Girl in front of wall): Public involvement
13 (Boy and girl): We have come for change
14: Change for Iran

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 18, 2009, 09:47:00 AM
I'm really surprised that the regime hasn't cracked down hard on this yet. How much longer can they allow protests this big to occur before things start to spiral out of control?

Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2009, 09:46:15 AM

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 09:45:25 AM
The problem is that what the people of Iran want is war with Israel and instability in the Middle East.  The West should turn all its support to the Iranian government, and allow them to resolve the matter by any means necessary.

Um...why bother?  The Iranian government wants those things to.

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 10:10:21 AM

Because the Iranian government is the devil we know, and can be trusted to be more calm than a bunch of violent revolutionaries.

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 10:10:21 AM
Because the Iranian government is the devil we know, and can be trusted to be more calm than a bunch of violent revolutionaries.

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 10:10:21 AM

Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2009, 09:46:15 AM

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 09:45:25 AM
The problem is that what the people of Iran want is war with Israel and instability in the Middle East.  The West should turn all its support to the Iranian government, and allow them to resolve the matter by any means necessary.

Um...why bother?  The Iranian government wants those things to.

Because the Iranian government is the devil we know, and can be trusted to be more calm than a bunch of violent revolutionaries.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 18, 2009, 09:47:00 AM
I'm really surprised that the regime hasn't cracked down hard on this yet. How much longer can they allow protests this big to occur before things start to spiral out of control?

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 18, 2009, 12:47:54 PM
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,631233,00.html

an open letter to Khamenei.
I wonder if he got it and if others in Iran read it.
Pretty damning for the regime

QuoteThe Basij have now begun to cover their faces, whereas previously they hadn't. This indicates they are becoming more scared of retaliation from the general public. Also, we have heard that cell phone service is cut off at night. There have been efforts to identify members of the Basij who have used violence against demonstrators, through facebook and other social networking websites.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 18, 2009, 09:59:33 AM
One of Mousavi's campaign adds.

QuoteI'm really surprised that the regime hasn't cracked down hard on this yet. How much longer can they allow protests this big to occur before things start to spiral out of control?

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 18, 2009, 12:47:54 PM
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,631233,00.html

an open letter to Khamenei.
I wonder if he got it and if others in Iran read it.
Pretty damning for the regime

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 09:45:25 AM
The problem is that what the people of Iran want is war with Israel and instability in the Middle East.  The West should turn all its support to the Iranian government, and allow them to resolve the matter by any means necessary.

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 12:57:43 PM
Some ex-pat who lost a bunch of his family's fortune during the revolution thinks that the regime is bad?

Well, that is daming indeed!  I am shocked that he would be against the hardline powers in Iran.

QuoteBattle in Parliament over dorm attacks by the Basij. Reader YS shared this news story (in Farsi) with us. According to a member of Iran's parliament quoted in the piece, a verbal scuffle -- and then a physical altercation -- broke out yesterday when several MPs questioned why more wasn't being done to stop the attacks by the plainclothes paramilitary Basiji.

YS gives the play-by-play:

    Yesterday a couple of the members of the Iranian parliament started asking question regarding the plainclothes security forces who have been beating the protesters in Iran.


    Apparently, Abutorabi (Parliament secretary) questioned the connections of the plainclothes security forces who had earlier storm Tehran University's dorms and killed and injured students. Abutorabi claims that those individuals have been identified and says: "Why do plainclothes individuals without permission from the government get to storm the dorms?"

    Then Ansari, a member of the parliament took the floor and talked about the "fact finding" committee and the fact that everyone in that comity is an Ahmadinejad supporter and therefore questioned the legitimacy of the committee.

    After Ansari, Abutorabi took the floor again and continued questioning the plainclothes security forces once again. At this point Hosseinian, Koochakzadeh, and resaee, the three biggest supporters of Ahmadinejad in the parliament, started a verbal argument which ended with a number of physical fights. As a result a number of pro and anti Ahmadinejad members of the parliament join the fight and start slapping and pushing each other.

    In the end, the anti Ahmadinejad block claims that they will expose the identities of those behind the plainclothes security forces.

    Keep in mind that the pro and anti Ahmadinejad blocks belong to the same political party! I think the government is starting to crack up from the inside.

Quote from: grumbler on June 18, 2009, 03:03:54 PM
Indeed, that should be the basis for your ardent support of the current regime: that they killed commies by the hundreds of thousands.

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 03:28:33 PM

Quote from: grumbler on June 18, 2009, 03:03:54 PM
Indeed, that should be the basis for your ardent support of the current regime: that they killed commies by the hundreds of thousands.

Actually, my ardent support for the current regime comes from the fact that Spellus opposes it.

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 09:45:25 AM
The problem is that what the people of Iran want is war with Israel and instability in the Middle East.  The West should turn all its support to the Iranian government, and allow them to resolve the matter by any means necessary.

Quote from: garbon on June 17, 2009, 10:42:37 PM
This is a sex-free zone.

Quote from: Hansmeister on June 18, 2009, 07:28:20 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 09:45:25 AM
The problem is that what the people of Iran want is war with Israel and instability in the Middle East.  The West should turn all its support to the Iranian government, and allow them to resolve the matter by any means necessary.

Nah, the Iranians are actually historically pro-jewish.  The Ayatollahs are responsible for the anti-semitism.  Iranians much rather would be killing arabs, something we all can support.

Quote from: Hansmeister on June 18, 2009, 07:28:20 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 09:45:25 AM
The problem is that what the people of Iran want is war with Israel and instability in the Middle East.  The West should turn all its support to the Iranian government, and allow them to resolve the matter by any means necessary.

Nah, the Iranians are actually historically pro-jewish.  The Ayatollahs are responsible for the anti-semitism.  Iranians much rather would be killing arabs, something we all can support.

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 08:52:22 PM

The ayatollahs will still be running the country.  Iranians are religious automatons.

Quote from: Jos Theelen on June 19, 2009, 05:03:35 AM
Well, Khamenei's speech was clear. Ahmedinejad is a clear winner, fuck off Mousavi.

Quote from: Jos Theelen on June 19, 2009, 05:03:35 AM
Well, Khamenei's speech was clear. Ahmedinejad is a clear winner, fuck off Mousavi.

Quote from: Jos Theelen on June 19, 2009, 05:03:35 AM
Well, Khamenei's speech was clear. Ahmedinejad is a clear winner, fuck off Mousavi.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 18, 2009, 09:36:46 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 08:52:22 PM

The ayatollahs will still be running the country.  Iranians are religious automatons.

Thirty years of tyrannical theocracy are enough to knock the God, let alone the fundementalism, out of almost anybody.  Mosque attendance has gone way down since the Revolution.

Quote from: Neil on June 19, 2009, 08:26:05 AM
And yet there's all sorts of Islam-related chants in the streets, and the election is being attacked as un-Islamic.

The Iranian people are the enemies of the West.

Quote from: Valmy on June 19, 2009, 08:28:36 AM

Quote from: Neil on June 19, 2009, 08:26:05 AM
And yet there's all sorts of Islam-related chants in the streets, and the election is being attacked as un-Islamic.

The Iranian people are the enemies of the West.

Nothing could be better than a civil war in Iran over who is more Islamic.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 19, 2009, 09:51:37 AM
if only someone could make it clear to iranians that as long as they stay muslim they're just some type of arabs.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 19, 2009, 09:51:37 AM
if only someone could make it clear to iranians that to me, as long as they stay muslim they're just some type of arabs.

Quote from: grumbler on June 19, 2009, 10:01:45 AM
FYP, and I don't really think they care much what delusions feed your ignorance.  Less than 1/5 of the world's Mulsims are Arab.

Quote from: grumbler on June 19, 2009, 10:01:45 AM

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 19, 2009, 09:51:37 AM
if only someone could make it clear to iranians that to me, as long as they stay muslim they're just some type of arabs.

FYP, and I don't really think they care much what delusions feed your ignorance.  Less than 1/5 of the world's Mulsims are Arab.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 19, 2009, 10:21:55 AM
Think outside the box

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 19, 2009, 10:21:55 AM
As if I don't know that arabs are minority in islam  :rolleyes:

QuoteThink outside the box thank you:

QuoteIslam is wether you like it or not and arab invention.

QuoteIran is muslims because tehy lost their war agains them.
So one can easily claim that as long as the Iranians -at least the parsi- are muslim they're still following the religion of the people who defeated them.
The conclusion being that as far as spiritual matters are concerned an arab rules their mind. conquest isn't only about land remember.
It's somethign to tell a certain type of iranians when their talking about how great and ancient their civ is.

Quote from: PDH on June 19, 2009, 10:22:57 AM
Does EVERYTHING have to be about sex?

Quote from: garbon on June 19, 2009, 10:56:47 AM
Freud said it all was.

Quote from: grumbler on June 19, 2009, 10:36:36 AM
Swedish minds are ruled by a jew

Quote

I speak for Mousavi. And Iran

The man Iranians want as their leader has been silenced. This is what he wants you to know

          o Mohsen Makhmalbaf
          o guardian.co.uk, Friday 19 June 2009 19.00 BST
          o Article history

I have been given the ­responsibility of telling the world what is happening in Iran. The office of Mir Hossein Mousavi, who the Iranian people truly want as their leader, has asked me to do so. They have asked me to tell how Mousavi's headquarters was wrecked by plainclothes police officers. To tell how the commanders of the revolutionary guard ordered him to stay silent. To urge people to take to the streets because Mousavi could not do so directly.

The people in the streets don't want a recount of last week's vote. They want it annulled. This is a crucial moment in our history. Since the 1979 revolution Iran has had 80% dictatorship and 20% democracy. We have dictatorship because one person is in charge, the supreme leader – first Khomeini, now Khamenei. He controls the army and the clergy, the justice system and the media, as well as our oil money.

There are some examples of democracy – reformers elected to parliament, and the very fact that a person like Mousavi could stand for election. But, since the day of the election, this ­element of democracy has vanished. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei announced that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had won, and that whoever opposed this will be suppressed – a position he affirmed speaking today in Tehran. People wanted to have demonstrations within the law, but the authorities would not let them. This is the first time we have seen millions on the streets without the permission of the supreme leader.

Now they are gathering to mourn those who have died. The people of Iran have a culture that elevates martyrdom. In the period running up to the revolution, when people were killed at demonstrations, others would gather again in the days following the death. This cycle carried on for six months, and culminated in the revolution. Today they are gathering in Tehran for those who were shot on Tuesday, and if there are more killings, this will continue.

So why do the Iranian people not want Ahmadinejad as their leader? Because he is nothing but a loudspeaker for Khamenei. Under Ahmadinejad, economic problems have grown worse, despite $280bn of oil revenue. Social and literary freedom is much more restricted than under his predecessor, Mohammad Khatami. The world views us as a terrorist nation on the lookout for war. When Khatami was president of Iran, Bush was president of the US. Now the Americans have Obama and we have our version of Bush. We need an Obama who can find solutions for Iran's problems. Although power would remain in the hands of Khamenei, a president like Mousavi could weaken the supreme leader.

Some suggest the protests will fade because nobody is leading them. All those close to Mousavi have been arrested, and his contact with the outside world has been restricted. People rely on word of mouth, because their mobile phones and the internet have been closed down. That they continue to gather shows they want something more than an election. They want freedom, and if they are not granted it we will be faced with another revolution.

Thirty years ago we supported each other. When police used tear gas, fires would be lit to neutralise its effects. People would set their own cars on fire to save others. Since then, the government has tried to separate people from one other. What we lost was our togetherness, and in the past month we have found that again. All the armed forces in Iran are only enough to repress one city, not the whole country. The people are like drops of water coming together in a sea.

People say that Mousavi won't change anything as he is part of the establishment. That is correct to a degree because they wouldn't let anyone who is not in their circle rise to seniority. But not all members of a family are alike, and for Mousavi it is useful to understand how he has changed over time.

Before the revolution, Mousavi was a religious intellectual and an artist, who supported radical change but did not support the mullahs. After the revolution, when all religious intellectuals and even leftists backed Khomeini, he served as prime minister for eight years. The economy was stable, and he did not order the killings of opponents, or become corrupt.

In order to neuralise his power, the position of prime minister was eliminated from the constitution and he was pushed out of politics. So Mousavi returned to the world of artists because in a country where there are no real political parties, artists can act as a party. The artists supported Khatami and now they support Mousavi.

Previously, he was revolutionary, because everyone inside the system was a revolutionary. But now he's a reformer. Now he knows Gandhi – before he knew only Che Guevara. If we gain power through aggression we would have to keep it through aggression. That is why we're having a green revolution, defined by peace and democracy.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 18, 2009, 09:36:46 PM

Quote from: Neil on June 18, 2009, 08:52:22 PM

The ayatollahs will still be running the country.  Iranians are religious automatons.

Thirty years of tyrannical theocracy are enough to knock the God, let alone the fundementalism, out of almost anybody.  Mosque attendance has gone way down since the Revolution.

QuoteI wonder what's going to happen. Iran is not China, the previous revolution thrived on martyrdom, if there's a massacre tomorrow it may simply cause greater resistance. It's just too hard to tell.

QuoteI think whatever happens we'll still see an Islamic Republic of Iran and I hope that's the case.

QuoteBut the entire basis of Shi'i Islam is martyrdom.  It's a huge factor in that faith. 

QuoteSorry, I've not read your article because I'm drunk and angry that you're taking on my role

QuoteHe wanted to target the Soviets.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 19, 2009, 11:01:33 PM

Gay, Catholic, British Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as closely as possible without speaking Farsi? Whose role are you taking? 

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 19, 2009, 11:07:33 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 19, 2009, 11:01:33 PM

Gay, Catholic, British Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as closely as possible without speaking Farsi? Whose role are you taking? 

Your's?

Quote from: Queequeg on June 19, 2009, 11:13:06 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 19, 2009, 11:07:33 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 19, 2009, 11:01:33 PM

Gay, Catholic, British Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as closely as possible without speaking Farsi? Whose role are you taking? 

Your's?

I'd say I am offended, but I'm close enough to being Gay, Catholic and British that I can understand why people make that mistake.  Even in person, sometimes, as my accent is weird. 
I meant, as Sheilbh no doubt guessed, Andrew Sullivan, (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/) the other Gay, British, Catholic Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as obsessively as possible without knowing Farsi.

Quote from: grumbler on June 19, 2009, 10:36:36 AM
So, because Christianity is a Jewish invention, then as far as spiritual matters are concerned, the Swedish minds are ruled by a jew?  :lmfao:

I strongly suspect that you haven't given this argument a great deal of thought.

Quote from: Tyr on June 20, 2009, 06:15:17 AM
Come on, it makes sense. Christianity is a lot less Jewish than Islam is Arab. The only thing that could come close in Christianity is old school Catholicism and saying that those who follow it are ruled by the evil Roman conquerors. Islam is a very, very Arab thing, so Iran being so Muslim is a little bit strange.

QuoteWitnesses report fierce clashes on Tehran streets
By ALI AKBAR DAREINI and NASSER KARIMI, Associated Press

TEHRAN, Iran – Police beat protesters and fired tear gas and water cannons at thousands who rallied Saturday in open defiance of Iran's clerical government, sharply escalating the most serious internal conflict since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

Eyewitnesses described fierce clashes near Revolution Square in central Tehran after some 3,000 protesters, many wearing black, chanted "Death to the dictator!" and "Death to dictatorship!" Police fired tear gas, water cannons and guns but it was not immediately clear if they were firing live ammunition.

English-language state TV confirmed that police had used batons and other non-lethal weapons against what it called unauthorized demonstrations.

The witnesses told The Associated Press that between 50 and 60 protesters were seriously beaten by police and pro-government militia and taken to Imam Khomeini hospital in central Tehran. People could be seen dragging away comrades bloodied by baton strikes.
Some protesters appeared to be fighting back, setting fire to militia members' motorcycles in streets near Freedom Square, witnesses said.
Helicopters hovered over central Tehran. Ambulance sirens echoed through the streets and black smoke rose over the city.

Tehran University was cordoned off by police and militia while students inside the university chanted "death to the dictator!" witnesses said. Police and militia barred people from entering Freedom Street, which runs from Freedom Square to Revolution Square, to prevent a massive gathering, the witnesses said.Amateur video showed dozens of Iranians running down a street after police fired tear gas at them. Shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is Great" — could be heard on the video, which could not be independently verified.The English-language state channel said a blast at the Tehran shrine of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini had killed one person and wounded two but the report could not be independently confirmed due to government restrictions on independent reporting. The shrine is about 12 miles (20 kilometers) south of central Tehran.
Hundreds of thousands of supporters of reformist presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi took to the streets for four consecutive days this week demanding the government cancel and rerun June 12 elections that ended with a declaration of overwhelming victory for hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Mousavi says he won and Ahmadinejad stole the election through widespread fraud.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei sided firmly with Ahmadinejad on Friday, saying the vote reflected popular will and ordering opposition leaders to end street protests or be held responsible for any "bloodshed and chaos" to come.

The statement effectively closed the door to Mousavi's demand for a new election, ratcheting up the possibility of a violent confrontation.

Police had clashed with protesters around Tehran immediately after the vote, and gunfire from a militia compound left at least seven dead, but the full force of the state remained in check until Saturday.

Web sites run by Mousavi supporters had said he planned to post a message, but there was no statement by the time of the planned street protests at 4 p.m. (7:30 a.m. EDT, 1130 GMT). Some pro-reform Web sites called for people to take to the streets.

Witnesses said protesters wore black as a symbol of mourning for the dead and the allegedly stolen election, with wristbands in green, the emblem of Mousavi's "Green Wave" movement.

Tehran Province Police Chief Ahmad Reza Radan said that police would "crack down on any gathering or protest rally which are being planned by some people." The head of the State Security Council also reiterated the warning to Mousavi that he would be held responsible if he encouraged street protests.

Eyewitnesses said thousands of police and plainclothes militia members filled the streets to prevent rallies. Fire trucks took up positions in Revolution Square and riot police surrounded Tehran University, the site of recent clashes between protesters and security forces, one witness said.

All witnesses spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared government reprisals for speaking with the press. Iranian authorities have placed strict limits on the ability of foreign media to cover recent events, banning reporting from the street and allowing only phone interviews and information from officials sources such as state TV.

The government has blocked Web sites such as BBC Farsi, Facebook, Twitter and several pro-Mousavi sites that are conduits for Iranians to tell the world about protests and violence.

Text messaging has not been working in Iran since last week, and cell phone service in Tehran is frequently down.

Mousavi and the two other candidates who ran against Ahmadinejad had been invited to meet with Iran's Guardian Council, an unelected body of 12 clerics and Islamic law experts close to Khamenei that oversees elections. Its spokesman told state TV that Mousavi and the reformist candidate Mahdi Karroubi did not attend.

The council has said it was prepared to conduct a limited recount of ballots at sites where candidates claim irregularities but Mousavi's supporters did not withdraw his demands for a new election.

A spokesman for Mousavi said Friday the opposition leader was not under arrest but was not allowed to speak to journalists or stand at a microphone at rallies. Iranian filmmaker Mohsen Makhmalbaf told the AP from Paris it's even becoming difficult to reach people close to Mousavi. He said he has not heard from Mousavi's camp since Khamenei's address.

Both houses of the U.S. Congress approved a resolution on Friday condemning "the ongoing violence" by the Iranian government and its suppression of the Internet and cell phones.

In an interview taped Friday with CBS, Obama said he is very concerned by the "tenor and tone" of Khamenei's comments. He also said that how Iran's leaders "approach and deal with people who are, through peaceful means, trying to be heard" will signal "what Iran is and is not."

Quote from: Tyr on June 20, 2009, 06:15:17 AM
So Britain are the most evil of evils, I'm honored  :lol:

QuoteTEHRAN (Reuters) - A suicide bomber blew himself up near the shrine of Iran's revolutionary founder, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, in Tehran on Saturday, Iran's semi-official Mehr news agency reported.

"A few minutes ago a suicide bomber blew himself up at the shrine," Mehr quoted a police official, Hossein Sajedinia, as saying.

Two other people were wounded in the incident in the northern wing of the shrine, another news agency, Fars, said.

Elsewhere in Tehran Iranian riot police used teargas to disperse demonstrators protesting against a disputed presidential election, a witness said.

Iran's English-language Press TV said police used teargas to disperse demonstrators at Tehran's Enghelab square.

"Police also used water canon to disperse the demonstrators," state television said.

Quote from: Neil on June 20, 2009, 11:13:37 AMIsrael must strike immediately.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 11:11:54 AM
Reports that Moussavi ... has taken a "martyrdom bath",

Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2009, 11:17:20 AM
Islam Religions and it's their fucking martyrdom cults. They are worse than the emos :bleeding:

Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2009, 11:27:32 AM

Quote from: Tamas on June 20, 2009, 11:17:20 AM
Islam Religions and it's their fucking martyrdom cults. They are worse than the emos :bleeding:

FYP

Islam is just younger than the religions which still adore martyrdom, just don't put it into practice much anymore.

Masada wasn't Islamic, nor was St Paul, nor the Oxford Martyrs, nor the "Sunday of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia."

Quote from: Tonitrus on June 20, 2009, 12:31:21 PM
So if Iran is trying to have a "color revolution", what color would it be?  ;)

Quote from: Tonitrus on June 20, 2009, 12:31:21 PM
So if Iran is trying to have a "color revolution", what color would it be?  ;)

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 12:33:47 PM
A fucking beautiful fucking Iranian woman fucking shot down in her fucking prime by the motherfucking goatfucking Basij. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrdRwOlmIxI)

Jesus Christ.  That was among the most disturbing videos I've ever watched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1aPejT0izs

The scream at the end of that is among the angriest things I've ever heard.  Fantastically disturbing.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 12:33:47 PM
A fucking beautiful fucking Iranian woman fucking shot down in her fucking prime by the motherfucking goatfucking Basij. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrdRwOlmIxI)

Jesus Christ.  That was among the most disturbing videos I've ever watched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1aPejT0izs

The scream at the end of that is among the angriest things I've ever heard.  Fantastically disturbing.

Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 20, 2009, 12:50:19 PM
Some people are saying that it's fake.

Quote from: Tonitrus on June 20, 2009, 12:31:21 PM
So if Iran is trying to have a "color revolution", what color would it be?  ;)

Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2009, 12:51:50 PM
Did you just find out Iranians are monsters?

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 12:29:29 PM
In a non-religious country the Rebellion would have fizzled out fairly quickly.  Instead, you have Iranians going out on to the streets afraid but comforted that they are dying for a cause, that they are martyrs.  I think it is reasonably clear from that that religion is a two-edged sword.  And I wouldn't blame Twlever Shiism for the current government, as it was just as likely that Iran would be dominated by some form of Socialist tyranny, a la Burma (where the best resistance to the regime is also religious-based).

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 12:54:18 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2009, 12:51:50 PM
Did you just find out Iranians are monsters?

The Basij are as bad as Hansmeister or anyone else thought they were.  Maybe worse.  But I have to admire the people who go out into the streets knowing that they face death.  The latest chants are MARG BAR KHAMENEI (death to Khamenei) and I WELCOME DEATH I WELCOME DEATH BUT NOT SUBJUGATION.  Takes balls.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 12:58:35 PM
It is probably a fair guess that over the last week more people have been killed/maimed/tortured/imprisoned than during the last of the Shah.  This is a new Revolutionary narrative. 

Marty, Shiism started as a mystical, Sufism-enfused unorthodox version of Islam.  It wasn't until midway through the Safavid period that some retarded Clerics decided to take all the fun out of it.  No reason it can't come back.

Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2009, 12:59:22 PM
Well, forgive me if I am not holding my breath.

Quote from: Monoriu on June 20, 2009, 01:04:11 PM
I don't think Iran will turn into a democracy even if the protesters win.  Do they want to change the system or do they want to change who is in charge?  Somehow I think it is the latter.

QuoteProtests continued in Iran today, despite yesterday's threat by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei to crush dissent if it went on. But the regime appears to be making good on its threats. Eyewitnesses reported massive security forces gathered all over Tehran, with Basij paramilitaries clubbing demonstrators and waves of arrests.

At about 9:20 p.m. in Tehran (12:50 p.m. Eastern time), Mir-Hossein Mousavi, the opposition candidate whose suspicious defeat by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad last week sparked the protests, declared he was ready for whatever happened next.

"I am prepared For martyrdom," he wrote on his campaign Twitter page. "Go on strike if I am arrested."

Before dark, Tehran was already erupting in violence. Foreign embassies were reportedly taking in wounded demonstrators in need of safety.

"Shit has hit the fan," a correspondent in Tehran e-mailed Salon this morning. "Tohid Square on fire, people are chanting all along Satter Khan Street. Chaos, then suddenly quiet, people eating ice cream, etc., then more chaos. Fire in the middle of the streets -- chants, chants, chants and it is not yet night. Tehran is on fire tonight."

Salon has also obtained, from an Iranian student in the U.S., two video clips -- taken by cell phone by a friend in Tehran earlier today -- showing the marches. In the first, a crowd walks down the street, with fires burning along the way:

In the second, someone fires teargas into the crowd, and the protesters begin to run. Not long afterwards, the picture goes dark. (The clip has been edited, but chanting and screaming continue for several minutes.) The chants are in Farsi, but the student translated them. "Down with dictators!" the crowd is chanting at first. After the teargas, the crowd then starts yelling, "Don't fear, we are together."

The situation appeared to be getting more and more chaotic, and it seems likely that the regime will crack down harder. There were unconfirmed reports in government-controlled media that a bomb had gone off at the tomb of Ayatollah Khomenei. Mousavi accused the ruling clerics of plotting for months to rig the elections. The protesters, though, continued to use the language and tactics of the 1979 Islamic revolution -- many were reportedly carrying the Koran in the streets today, and each night, opponents of the regime have gone to their balconies or roofs to yell, "God is great," in Farsi, just as supporters of the revolution did 30 years ago.

And despite rumors that Mousavi had been arrested, he reportedly took to the streets to demonstrate today. Iranian journalist Fershteh Ghazi quoted him trying to rally the protesters:  "We have learned from our fathers that the blood of the innocent shall fall upon the guilty."

Quote from: Jaron on June 20, 2009, 02:03:00 PM
Man, what I wouldn't give to be manning a machine gun nest at one of those protests. .

Quote from: Monoriu on June 20, 2009, 01:04:11 PM
I don't think Iran will turn into a democracy even if the protesters win.  Do they want to change the system or do they want to change who is in charge?  Somehow I think it is the latter.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 20, 2009, 02:08:42 PM

Quote from: Jaron on June 20, 2009, 02:03:00 PM
Man, what I wouldn't give to be manning a machine gun nest at one of those protests. .

How brave of you? :rolleyes:

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 01:02:47 PMI've read blogs of Iranian Atheists who run out into the streets screaming Allah Akbar as a way of saying Fuck You to the regime.

Quote from: Jaron on June 20, 2009, 02:03:00 PM
Man, what I wouldn't give to be manning a machine gun nest at one of those protests. .

Quote from: Jaron on June 20, 2009, 02:16:30 PM
More brave than you are, basement warrior.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 12:54:18 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2009, 12:51:50 PM
Did you just find out Iranians are monsters?

The Basij are as bad as Hansmeister or anyone else thought they were.  Maybe worse.  But I have to admire the people who go out into the streets knowing that they face death.  The latest chants are MARG BAR KHAMENEI (death to Khamenei) and I WELCOME DEATH I WELCOME DEATH BUT NOT SUBJUGATION.  Takes balls.

Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2009, 02:15:56 PM
What they want is to join the modern Western world.  They already know that they belong, but also know that their government, for its own reasons, is keeping them isolated.

QuoteA Supreme Leader Loses His Aura as Iranians Flock to the Streets

By ROGER COHEN
TEHRAN — The Iranian police commander, in green uniform, walked up Komak Hospital Alley with arms raised and his small unit at his side. "I swear to God," he shouted at the protesters facing him, "I have children, I have a wife, I don't want to beat people. Please go home."

A man at my side threw a rock at him. The commander, unflinching, continued to plead. There were chants of "Join us! Join us!" The unit retreated toward Revolution Street, where vast crowds eddied back and forth confronted by baton-wielding Basij militia and black-clad riot police officers on motorbikes.

Dark smoke billowed over this vast city in the late afternoon. Motorbikes were set on fire, sending bursts of bright flame skyward. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the supreme leader, had used his Friday sermon to declare high noon in Tehran, warning of "bloodshed and chaos" if protests over a disputed election persisted.

He got both on Saturday — and saw the hitherto sacrosanct authority of his office challenged as never before since the 1979 revolution birthed the Islamic Republic and conceived for it a leadership post standing at the very flank of the Prophet. A multitude of Iranians took their fight through a holy breach on Saturday from which there appears to be scant turning back.

Khamenei has taken a radical risk. He has factionalized himself, so losing the arbiter's lofty garb, by aligning himself with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad against both Mir Hussein Moussavi, the opposition leader, and Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a founding father of the revolution.

He has taunted millions of Iranians by praising their unprecedented participation in an election many now view as a ballot-box putsch. He has ridiculed the notion that an official inquiry into the vote might yield a different result. He has tried pathos and he has tried pounding his lectern. In short, he has lost his aura.

The taboo-breaking response was unequivocal. It's funny how people's obsessions come back to bite them. I've been hearing about Khamenei's fear of "velvet revolutions" for months now. There was nothing velvet about Saturday's clashes. In fact, the initial quest to have Moussavi's votes properly counted and Ahmadinejad unseated has shifted to a broader confrontation with the regime itself.

Garbage burned. Crowds bayed. Smoke from tear gas swirled. Hurled bricks sent phalanxes of police, some with automatic rifles, into retreat to the accompaniment of cheers. Early afternoon rumors that the rally for Moussavi had been canceled yielded to the reality of violent confrontation.

I don't know where this uprising is leading. I do know some police units are wavering. That commander talking about his family was not alone. There were other policemen complaining about the unruly Basij. Some security forces just stood and watched. "All together, all together, don't be scared," the crowd shouted.

I also know that Iran's women stand in the vanguard. For days now, I've seen them urging less courageous men on. I've seen them get beaten and return to the fray. "Why are you sitting there?" one shouted at a couple of men perched on the sidewalk on Saturday. "Get up! Get up!"

Another green-eyed woman, Mahin, aged 52, staggered into an alley clutching her face and in tears. Then, against the urging of those around her, she limped back into the crowd moving west toward Freedom Square. Cries of "Death to the dictator!" and "We want liberty!" accompanied her.

There were people of all ages. I saw an old man on crutches, middle-aged office workers and bands of teenagers. Unlike the student revolts of 2003 and 1999, this movement is broad.

"Can't the United Nations help us?" one woman asked me. I said I doubted that very much. "So," she said, "we are on our own."

The world is watching, and technology is connecting, and the West is sending what signals it can, but in the end that is true. Iranians have fought this lonely fight for a long time: to be free, to have a measure of democracy.

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of the Islamic revolution, understood that, weaving a little plurality into an authoritarian system. That pluralism has ebbed and flowed since 1979 — mainly the former — but last week it was crushed with blunt brutality. That is why a whole new generation of Iranians, their intelligence insulted, has risen.

I'd say the momentum is with them for now. At moments on Saturday, Khamenei's authority, which is that of the Islamic Republic itself, seemed fragile. The revolutionary authorities have always mocked the cancer-ridden Shah ceding before an uprising, and vowed never to bend in the same way. But they are facing a swelling test.

Just off Revolution Street, I walked into a pall of tear gas. I'd lit a cigarette minutes before — not a habit but a need — and a young man collapsed into me shouting: "Blow smoke in my face." Smoke dispels the effects of the gas to some degree.

I did what I could and he said "We are with you" in English and with my colleague we tumbled into a dead end — Tehran is full of them — running from the searing gas and police. I gasped and fell through a door into an apartment building where somebody had lit a small fire in a dish to relieve the stinging.

There were about 20 of us gathered there, eyes running, hearts racing. A 19-year-old student was nursing his left leg, struck by a militiaman with an electric-shock-delivering baton. "No way we are turning back," said a friend of his as he massaged that wounded leg.

Later, we moved north, tentatively, watching police lash out from time to time, reaching Victory Square where a pitched battle was in progress. Young men were breaking bricks and stones to the right size for hurling. Crowds gathered on overpasses, filming and cheering the protesters. A car burst into flames. Back and forth the crowd surged, confronted by less-than-convincing police units.

I looked up through the smoke and saw a poster of the stern visage of Khomeini above the words, "Islam is the religion of freedom."

Later, as night fell over the tumultuous capital, from rooftops across the city, the defiant sound of "Allah-u-Akbar" — "God is Great" — went up yet again, as it has every night since the fraudulent election, but on Saturday it seemed stronger. The same cry was heard in 1979, only for one form of absolutism to yield to another. Iran has waited long enough to be free.

QuoteMousavi's Latest Statement: "I Followed Them"

[Via Iranfacts]

"In the name of God, the kind and the merciful

Indeed god demands you to safe keep what people entrust in you, and to rule them with justice. [this a verse of Koran]

BLOODHAND0620:Getty

Respectable and intelligent people of Iran, These nights and days, a pivotal moment in our history is taking place. People ask each other: "what should we do?, which way should we go?". It is my duty to share with you what I believe, and to learn from you, may we never forget our historical task and not give up on the duty we are given by the destiny of times and generations.

30 years ago, in this country a revolution became victorious in the name of Islam, a revolution for  freedom, a revolution for reviving the dignity of men, a revolution for truth and justice. In those times, especially when our enlightened Imam [Khomeini] was alive, large amount of lives and matters were invested to legitimize this foundation and many valuable achievements were attained. An unprecedented enlightenment captured our society, and our people reached a new life where they endured the hardest of hardships with a sweet taste. What this people gained was dignity and freedom and a gift of the life of the pure ones [i.e. 12 Imams of Shiites]. I am certain that those who have seen those days will not be satisfied with anything less. Had we as a people lost certain talents that we were unable to experience that early spirituality? I had come to say that that was not the case. It is not late yet, we are not far from that enlightened space yet.

I had come to show that it was possible to live spiritually while living in a modern world. I had come to repeat Imam's warnings about fundamentalism. I had come to say that evading the law leads to dictatorship; and to remind that paying attention to people's dignity does not diminish the foundations of the regime, but strengthens it.

I had come to say that people wish honesty and integrity from their servants, and that many of our perils have arisen from lies. I had come to say that poverty and backwardness, corruption and injustice were not our destiny. I had come to re-invite to the Islamic revolution, as it had to be, and Islamic republic as it has to be. In this invitation, I was not charismatic [articulate], but the core message of revolution was so appealing that it surpassed my articulation and excited the young generation who had not seen those days to recreate scenes which we had not seen since the days of revolution[1979] and the sacred defense. The people's movement chose green as its symbol. I confess that in this, I followed them.

And a generation that was accused of being removed from religion, has now reached "God is Great", "Victory's of God and victory's near", "Ya hossein" in their chants to prove that when this tree fruits, they all resemble. No one taught hem these slogans, they reached them by the teachings of instinct.


How unfair are those whose petty advantages make them call this a "velvet revolution" staged by foreigners! [refering to state TV and Khameneni, perhaps!] But as you know, all of us were faced with deception and cheatings when we claimed to revitalize our nation and realize dreams that root in the hearts of young and old. And that which we had predicted will stem from evading law [dictatorship], realized soon in the worst manifestation.

The large voter turnout in recent election was the result of hard work to create hope and confidence in people, to create a deserving response to those whose broad dissatisfaction with the existing management crisis could have targeted the foundations of the regime. If this good will and trust of the poeple is not addressed via protecting their votes, or if they cannot react in a civil manner to claim their rights, the responsibility of the dangerous routs ahead will be on the shoulders of those who do not tolerate civil protests. If the large volume of cheating and vote rigging, which has set fire to the hays of people's anger, is expressed as the evidence of fairness, the republican nature of the state will be killed and in practice, the ideology that Islam and Republicanism are incompatible will be proven.

This outcome will make two groups happy: One, those who since the beginning of revolution stood against Imam and called the Islamic state a dictatorship of the elite who want to take people to heaven by force; and the other, those who in defending the human rights, consider religion and Islam against republicanism. Imam's fantastic art was to neutralize these dichotomies. I had come to focus on Imam's approach to neutralize the burgeoning magic of these. Now, by confirming the results of election, by limiting the extent of investigation in a manner that the outcome will not be changed, even though in more than 170 branches the number of cast votes was more than 100% of eligible voters of the riding, the heads of the state have accepted the responsibility of what has happened during the election.

In these conditions, we are asked to follow our complaints via the Guardian council, while this council has proven its bias, not only before and during, but also after the election. The first principle of judgment is to be impartial. I, continue to strongly believe that the request for annulling the vote and repeating the election is a definite right that has to be considered by impartial and nationally trusted delegation. Not to dismiss the results of this investigation a priori, or to prevent people from demonstration by threatening them to bloodshed. Nor to unleash the Intelligence ministry's plain clothes forces on people's lives to disperse crowds by intimidation and inflammation, instead of responding to people's legitimate questions, and then blaming the bloodshed on others.

As I am looking at the scene, I see it set for advancing a new political agenda that spreads beyond the objective of installing an unwanted government. As a companion who has seen the beauties of your green wave, I will never allow any one's life endangered because of my actions. At the same time, I remain undeterred on my demand for annulling the election and demanding people's rights. Despite my limited abilities, I believe that your motivation and creativity can pursue your legitimate demands in new civil manners.

Be sure that I will always stand with you. What this brother of yours recommends, especially to the dear youth, in terms of finding new solutions is to not allow liars and cheater steal your flag of defense of Islamic state, and foreigners rip the treasures of the Islamic republic which are your inheritance of the blood of your decent fathers. By trust in God, and hope for the future, and leaning on the strength of social movements, claim your rights in the frameworks of the existing constitution, based on principle of non-violence.

In this, we are not confronting the Basij. Basiji is our brother. In this we are not confronting the revolutionary guard. The guard is the keeper of our revolution. We are not confronting the army, the army is the keeper of our borders. These organs are the keepers of our independence, freedom and our Islamic republic. We are confronting deception and lies, we want to reform them, a reform by return to the pure principles of revolution.

We advise the authorities, to calm down the streets. Based on article 27 of the constitution, not only provide space for peaceful protest, but also encourage such gatherings. The state TV should stop badmouthing and taking sides. Before voices turn into shouting, let them be heard in reasonable debates. Let the press criticize, and write the news as they happen. In one word, create a free space for people to express their agreements and disagreements. Let those who want, say "takbeer" and don't consider it opposition. It is clear that in this case, there won't be a need for security forces on the streets, and we won't have to face pictures and hear news that break the heart of anyone who loves the country and the revolution.

Your brother and companion Mir Hossein Mousavi

(Photo: A supporter of Iran's defeated presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi shows her hand covered in the blood of a wounded person during a demonstration on June 20, 2009 in Tehran, Iran. Thousands of Iranians clashed with police as they defied an ultimatum from supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei calling for an end to protests over last week's disputed presidential election results. Iranian police have tried to break up protest using water cannon, tear gas, batons and live rounds. Getty.)

Quote from: Martinus on June 20, 2009, 01:08:21 PM

Quote from: Monoriu on June 20, 2009, 01:04:11 PM
I don't think Iran will turn into a democracy even if the protesters win.  Do they want to change the system or do they want to change who is in charge?  Somehow I think it is the latter.

I admit I don't know much about the Iranian situation, but I think it's the opposite to what you are saying - the idea of Iran being democratic (if shitty) I think was one of the selling points of the regime to the people. After all, these riots are over election results.

That's not something people in non-democratic countries riot over (even in communist Poland, until 1989 the protests never really were aimed at changing those in power per se, but improving working conditions, freedom of press etc.)

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 12:52:21 PM

Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 20, 2009, 12:50:19 PM
Some people are saying that it's fake.

Some people are misanthropic idiots.

Quote from: PDH on June 20, 2009, 06:29:50 PM
Be careful, you might get shot in the lounge.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 06:10:54 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 12:52:21 PM

Quote from: Ancient Demon on June 20, 2009, 12:50:19 PM
Some people are saying that it's fake.

Some people are misanthropic idiots.

It sounds like she was shot in the lounge; the blood on her face and mouth are from her coughing it up, and I've read enough about the photo that it seems genuine.  There's a lot of confusion in the scene, too, which in my mind also makes it seem more likely to be genuine.  The angles are too awkward, the look on her face too...confused.  It is probably among the worst things I've ever seen in my life, I'll never forget it.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 12:33:47 PM
A fucking beautiful fucking Iranian woman fucking shot down in her fucking prime by the motherfucking goatfucking Basij. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrdRwOlmIxI)

Jesus Christ.  That was among the most disturbing videos I've ever watched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1aPejT0izs

The scream at the end of that is among the angriest things I've ever heard.  Fantastically disturbing.

QuoteIran's Parliament (Majlis) Speaker Ali Larijani suggests that some of the members in the Guardian Council have sided with a certain candidate in the June 12 presidential election.

Speaking live on the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) Channel 2 on Saturday, the speaker said that "a majority of people are of the opinion that the actual election results are different than what was officially announced."

"The opinion of this majority should be respected and a line should be drawn between them and rioters and miscreants," he was quoted as saying by Khabaronline -- a website affiliated with him.

He was referring to rallies that have been held on a daily basis in Iran, since the announcement of the presidential election results last Friday, in which incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was re-elected with almost two thirds of the vote.

The president's main rival Mir-Hossein Mousavi, who according to the Interior Ministry has lost to Ahmadinejad even in the East-Azerbaijan province where he hails from, cried foul and described the election as a 'charade' -- a charge the president and his interior minister have denied.

Mousavi -- Iran's last prime minister -- has as a result called on the Guardian Council, the body that supervises the electoral process, to nullify Friday's vote and hold the election anew.

Larijani, however, believes that the Iranian people have lost their trust in the country's legal system. "Although the Guardian Council is made up of religious individuals I wish certain members would not side with a certain presidential candidate."

"The Guardian Council should use every possible means to build trust and convince the protesters that their complaints will be thoroughly looked into," the parliament speaker added.

Larijani who, was formerly in charge of IRIB, criticized the organization, saying that "the IRIB should not act in a way that provokes people."

The authorities should provide an atmosphere in which people feel free to express their opinion, he concluded.

Quotethey are chanting;
"mimiram, mimiram zelat nemipaziram"
which means
"ill die, ill die; i wont accept oppression"

QuoteThe Iranian-backed Lebanese militia, Hezbollah was just defeated in parliamentary elections. The group's Secretary General, Hassan Nasrallah, expressed recently his full support of in Ahmadinejad and promised that "nothing has changed in Lebanon" and "no winds of change will be blowing from Iran."
Nasrallah dismissed Iranian divisions and advised Arabs to avoid commenting on the issue because he said they're ill-informed.

"No one in the Arab world understands how Iran operates" he blasted in a recent speech.
He reassured his pro-Ahmadinejad audience that "Iran will overcome this crisis with ease." In a confident tone he concluded, "People around the world will be very disappointed if they believe otherwise."

Hezbollah's support could have been expressed in more than words. According to many media reports and Online chatter, Iran's volunteer paramilitary forces known as 'Basij', seem to have added some Arabic-speaking members -- suspected of being Hezbollah fighters.According to these reports, non-Farsi speakers are riding motor scooters and patrolling the streets of Tehran, tracking demonstrators and monitoring their movement.

Quote from: The Brain on June 21, 2009, 03:36:24 AM
:rolleyes: That's some serious journalism from CNN. It's "Iran", not "Teh 'Ran".

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 20, 2009, 11:05:03 AM

Quote from: Tyr on June 20, 2009, 06:15:17 AM
So Britain are the most evil of evils, I'm honored  :lol:

You got one vote, big deal.  You'd probably get Zimbabwe too.  But America still has the North Korean, Chinese, Russian, and Venezuelan judges.

Quote from: Alcibiades on June 21, 2009, 02:24:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=185vPe_gROA&feature=player_embedded

This one shows more, heh.  Looks like you were right Neil, that was very very quick..

And you can hear the shooting and wounded in this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIrX6UiXReE&feature=related


She's far from the only one too, several on youtube alone surprisingly.

http://lastfreedom.net/   - Covering it

QuoteArrests of Rafsanjani kin show Iran clerics split
By NASSER KARIMI and WILLIAM J. KOLE, Associated Press

TEHRAN, Iran – Iran's government said Sunday it arrested the daughter and four other relatives of former President Hashemi Rafsanjani, one of the country's most powerful men, in a move that exposed a rift among the ruling Islamic clerics over the disputed presidential election.

State media also reported at least 10 more deaths, bringing the official toll for a week of confrontations to at least 17. State television inside Iran said 10 were killed and 100 injured in clashes Saturday between demonstrators contesting the result of the June 12 election and black-clad police wielding truncheons, tear gas and water cannons.

Police and members of the Basij militia took up positions in the afternoon on major streets and squares, including the site of Saturday's clashes. There was no word on any new clashes Sunday, although after dark many people in Tehran went to their rooftops to shout "Death to the dictator" and Allahu akbar," a common form of defiance in recent days.

State-run Press TV reported that Rafsanjani's eldest daughter, Faezeh Hashemi, and four other unidentified family members were arrested late Saturday. On Sunday evening, it said the four others had been released but that Hashemi remained in detention. However, Iran's ambassador to France Seyed Mehdi Miraboutalebi said on France's RFI radio that Hashemi had been released.

Last week, state television showed images of Hashemi, 46, speaking to hundreds of supporters of opposition candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi. He alleges fraud in the June 12 election, which the government said President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won.

After Hashemi's appearance, hard-line students gathered outside the Tehran prosecutor's office and accused her of treason, state radio reported.

The arrests are the strongest sign yet of a serious divide among Iran's ruling clerics.

Also Sunday, Parliament Speaker Ali Larijani said on state television that the number of people questioning the election results was large and "this group should be respected and one should not mix this big population's account with a small group of rioters."

Rafsanjani, 75, heads two powerful institutions. One of them, the cleric-run Assembly of Experts, has the power to monitor and remove the supreme leader, the country's most powerful figure. The second is the Expediency Council, a body that arbitrates disputes between parliament and the unelected Guardian Council, which can block legislation.

The assembly has never publicly reprimanded the unelected Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei since he succeeded Islamic Revolution founder Aytollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989. But the current crisis has rattled the once-untouchable stature of the supreme leader with protesters openly defying his orders to leave the streets.

Underscoring how the protesters have become emboldened despite the regime's repeated and ominous warnings, witnesses said some shouted "Death to Khamenei!" at Saturday's demonstrations — another sign of once unthinkable challenges to the virtually limitless authority of the supreme leader.

Rafsanjani was deeply critical of Ahmadinejad during the presidential campaign and has the potential to lead an internal challenge to Khamenei.

His daughter's arrest came as something of a surprise: In his Friday sermon to tens of thousands of worshippers, Khamenei praised Rafsanjani as one of the architects of the revolution and an effective political figure for many years. Khamenei acknowledged, however, that the two have "many differences of opinion."

Khamenei has accused foreign media of making "malicious" attempts to portray a schism among the ruling clerics. At Friday's prayers, he acknowledged that all four presidential candidates "have differences, but all of them belong to the system."

Iran's regime continued to impose a blackout on the most serious internal conflict since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

But fresh images and allegations of brutality emerged as Iranians at home and abroad sought to shed light on a week of astonishing resistance to hard-line Ahmadinejad and Khamenei.

The New-York based International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran said scores of injured demonstrators who had sought medical treatment after Saturday's clashes were arrested by security forces at hospitals in the capital.

It said doctors had been ordered to report protest-related injuries to the authorities, and that some seriously injured protesters had sought refuge at foreign embassies in a bid to evade arrest.

"The arrest of citizens seeking care for wounds suffered at the hands of security forces when they attempted to exercise rights guaranteed under their own constitution and international law is deplorable," said Hadi Ghaemi, spokesman for the campaign, denouncing the alleged arrests as "a sign of profound disrespect by the state for the well-being of its own people."

"The government of Iran should be ashamed of itself. Right now, in front of the whole world, it is showing its violent actions," he said.

Thousands of supporters of Mousavi, who claims he won the election, squared off Saturday against security forces in a dramatic show of defiance of Khamenei.

Iran has also acknowledged the deaths of seven protesters in clashes on Monday.

State media also reported a suicide bombing at the shrine of Khomeini on Saturday killed the attacker and injured five other people.

There was some confusion about the overall death toll. English-language Press TV, which is broadcast only outside the country, put the toll at 13 and labeled those who died "terrorists." There was no immediate explanation for the discrepancy.

Amnesty International cautioned that it was "perilously hard" to verify the casualty tolls.

"The climate of fear has cast a shadow over the whole situation," Amnesty's chief Iran researcher, Drewery Dyke, told The Associated Press. "In the 10 years I've been following this country, I've never felt more at sea than I do now. It's just cut off."

Iran has imposed strict controls on foreign media covering the unrest, saying correspondents cannot go out into the streets to report.

Reporters Without Borders said 23 journalists were arrested over the past week. The British Broadcasting Corp. said Sunday that its Tehran-based correspondent, Jon Leyne, had been asked to leave the country. The BBC said its office remained open. The U.S.-based newsmagazine Newsweek said its journalist Maziar Bahari was arrested Sunday morning and had not been heard from.

Also Sunday, Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki held a news conference where he rebuked Britain, France and Germany for raising questions about reports of voting irregularities in hardline Ahmadinejad's re-election — a proclaimed victory which has touched off Iran's most serious internal conflict since the revolution.

Mottaki accused France of taking "treacherous and unjust approaches." But he saved his most pointed criticism for Britain, raising a litany of historical grievances and accusing the country of flying intelligence agents into Iran before the election to interfere with the vote. The election, he insisted, was a "very transparent competition."

That drew an indignant response from British Foreign Secretary David Miliband, who "categorically" denied his country was meddling. "This can only damage Iran's standing in the eyes of the world," Miliband said.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Iran anew to conduct a complete and transparent recount.

In Washington on Saturday, President Barack Obama urged Iranian authorities to halt "all violent and unjust actions against its own people." He said the United States "stands by all who seek to exercise" the universal rights to assembly and free speech.

Obama has offered to open talks with Iran to ease a nearly 30-year diplomatic freeze, but the upheaval could complicate any attempts at outreach.

Republican senators criticized Obama on Sunday for not taking a tougher public stand in support of the protesters, with one saying the president had been "timid and passive."

Israeli President Shimon Peres applauded Iran's pro-reform protesters Sunday, saying the young should "raise their voice for freedom" — an explicit message of support from a country that sees itself as most endangered by the hard-line government in Tehran.

Saturday's unrest came a day after Khamenei sternly warned Mousavi and his backers to all off demonstrations or risk being held responsible for "bloodshed, violence and rioting." Delivering a sermon at Friday prayers attended by tens of thousands, Khamenei sided firmly with Ahmadinejad, calling the result "an absolute victory" that reflected popular will and ordering opposition leaders to end their street protests.

Mousavi did not directly reply to the ultimatum.

His camp, meanwhile, denied reports that he had proclaimed himself ready for martyrdom on Saturday.

"Mousavi has never said this," his close ally, Qorban Behzadiannejad, told the AP. Mousavi's Web site also said statements that Mousavi was preparing for death were inaccurate.


Kole reported from Cairo. Associated Press Writers Ali Akbar Dareini in Tehran, Brian Murphy in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, and Sebastian Abbot in Cairo contributed to this report.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 21, 2009, 03:45:13 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2009/06/090621_ag_street_clashes.shtml


KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE.

QuoteGuardian Council: Over 100% voted in 50 cities
Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:10:25 GMT

The Guardian Council Spokesman Abbas-Ali Kadkhodaei
Iran's Guardian Council has suggested that the number of votes collected in 50 cities surpass the number of the people eligible to cast ballot in those areas.

The council's Spokesman Abbas-Ali Kadkhodaei, who was speaking on the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) Channel 2 on Sunday, made the remarks in response to complaints filed by Mohsen Rezaei -- a defeated candidate in the June 12 Presidential election.

"Statistics provided by Mohsen Rezaei in which he claims more than 100% of those eligible have cast their ballot in 170 cities are not accurate -- the incident has happened in only 50 cities," Kadkhodaei said.

The spokesman, however, said that although the vote tally affected by such an irregularity could be over 3 million and the council could at the request of the candidates re-count the the affected ballot boxes,
"it has yet to be determined whether the amount is decisive in the election results," reported Khabaronline.

Three of the four candidates contesting in last Friday's presidential election cried foul, once the Interior Ministry announced the results - according to which incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was declared the winner with almost two-thirds of the vote.

Rezaei, along with Mir-Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi, reported more than 646 'irregularities' in the electoral process and submitted their complaints to the body responsible for overseeing the election -- the Guardian Council.

Mousavi and Karroubi have called on the council to nullify Friday's vote and hold the election anew. This is while President Ahmadinejad and his Interior Minister Sadeq Mahsouli have rejected any possibility of fraud, saying that the election was free and fair.

MMN/SME/MMN

Quote from: Tamas on June 21, 2009, 02:15:10 PM
GIVE ME A C!
GIVE ME AN I!
GIVE ME A V!
GIVE ME A I!
GIV ME AN L!

GIVE ME A WAR!

CIVIL WAR!


:yeah:

Quote from: Viking on June 21, 2009, 06:49:59 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 21, 2009, 02:15:10 PM
GIVE ME A C!
GIVE ME AN I!
GIVE ME A V!
GIVE ME A I!
GIV ME AN L!

GIVE ME A WAR!

CIVIL WAR!


:yeah:

Army vs. Revolutionary Guard?

Quote from: citizen k on June 21, 2009, 07:21:10 PM

Quote from: Viking on June 21, 2009, 06:49:59 PM

Quote from: Tamas on June 21, 2009, 02:15:10 PM
GIVE ME A C!
GIVE ME AN I!
GIVE ME A V!
GIVE ME A I!
GIV ME AN L!

GIVE ME A WAR!

CIVIL WAR!


:yeah:

Army vs. Revolutionary Guard?

No. Bloggers vs. Tweeters.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 21, 2009, 06:41:57 PM
Whoops  :lol:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=98711&sectionid=351020101

QuoteGuardian Council: Over 100% voted in 50 cities
Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:10:25 GMT

The Guardian Council Spokesman Abbas-Ali Kadkhodaei
Iran's Guardian Council has suggested that the number of votes collected in 50 cities surpass the number of the people eligible to cast ballot in those areas.

Quote from: Alatriste on June 22, 2009, 02:26:26 AM

I wonder what's going to happen now that apaparently the Guardians have admitted the truth and/or taken sides in the fight

QuoteKadkhodaei further explained that the voter turnout of above 100% in some cities is a normal phenomenon because there is no legal limitation for people to vote for the presidential elections in another city or province to which people often travel or commute.

Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on June 22, 2009, 03:56:48 AM

Quote from: Alatriste on June 22, 2009, 02:26:26 AM

I wonder what's going to happen now that apaparently the Guardians have admitted the truth and/or taken sides in the fight

Except they didn't,

QuoteKadkhodaei further explained that the voter turnout of above 100% in some cities is a normal phenomenon because there is no legal limitation for people to vote for the presidential elections in another city or province to which people often travel or commute.

they just manufactured an explanation.

Quote from: Tyr on June 22, 2009, 03:53:34 AM
When have rigs ever not been shoddy though?

Quote from: Queequeg on June 20, 2009, 06:10:54 PM


It sounds like she was shot in the lounge; the blood on her face and mouth are from her coughing it up, and I've read enough about the photo that it seems genuine.  There's a lot of confusion in the scene, too, which in my mind also makes it seem more likely to be genuine.  The angles are too awkward, the look on her face too...confused.  It is probably among the worst things I've ever seen in my life, I'll never forget it.

Quote from: Martinus on June 22, 2009, 08:48:41 AM
I think someone should make a video of the riots to Dylan's "The Times, They Are A-Changing" or of the Khomeini's Tomb being bombed to the "1812" overture by Tchaikovsky.

Yeah, I'm a sucker for pop culture references. :P

QuoteThe Iranian-backed Lebanese militia, Hezbollah was just defeated in parliamentary elections. The group's Secretary General, Hassan Nasrallah, expressed recently his full support of in Ahmadinejad and promised that "nothing has changed in Lebanon" and "no winds of change will be blowing from Iran."
Nasrallah dismissed Iranian divisions and advised Arabs to avoid commenting on the issue because he said they're ill-informed.

"No one in the Arab world understands how Iran operates" he blasted in a recent speech.

Quote from: DontSayBanana on June 13, 2009, 08:13:26 AM

This. "True colors" and all that jazz; it would let us drop the pretense of having to be friendly to Iran if they're exposed in large-scale vote fraud and violent suppression.

Quote from: KRonn on June 22, 2009, 11:10:55 AM
...

Republicans call Obama timid on Iran

...

Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2009, 11:26:06 AM
The Republicans are just trying to use this to their political advantage.  However, we already saw how much a black eye it was for Bush to say anything during the unsuccessful coup in Venezuela.  No reason to make the same mistake twice.

Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2009, 11:26:06 AM
However, we already saw how much a black eye it was for Bush to say anything during the unsuccessful coup in Venezuela.  No reason to make the same mistake twice.

Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2009, 01:09:53 PM
Perhaps momentum is fading.

Oh well they had a good run.

Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2009, 01:09:53 PM
Perhaps momentum is fading.

Oh well they had a good run.

Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2009, 01:09:53 PM
Perhaps momentum is fading.

Oh well they had a good run.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2009, 02:39:08 PM
They are waiting for some encouraging words from Obama.  Without them they are doomed.