News from Iran? Good? Bad? Who knows?

[MadImmortalMan]

Why do you guys say "hire a car".  A car isn't a person.  You don't hire a car anymore then you hire an apartment.

The first time I heard that phrase used I assumed the person meant they were hiring a dude to drive them around like Miss Daisy. You silly British people.

[Valmy]

No believable conspiracy theory involves lizard men; they only have 2 HD.  Gnolls are a much better tool for world domination.

D&D Hijack!

[KRonn]

The US, the UK, and Israel--the axis of evil, Iranian style.

Funny though, it would seem that Iran is, or continues as, the axis of evil or some such variation of that for most Mid Eastern countries, Europe, N. America, and basically most everyone else. Except Chavez and North Korea of course, and perhaps some mutual but strained interests with Russia, China.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The Iranians are paying the UK the compliment of rating us as "the most evil" 

I enjoyed this Spectator comment that revels in the importance that the Iranian regime attaches to Britain :

http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/columnists/3715733/shared-opinion.thtml

Why do you guys say "hire a car".  A car isn't a person.  You don't hire a car anymore then you hire an apartment.

probably for the same reason americans can't spell their english properly: namely linguistic differences.

[Valmy]

Funny though, it would seem that Iran is, or continues as, the axis of evil or some such variation of that for most Mid Eastern countries, Europe, N. America, and basically most everyone else. Except Chavez and North Korea of course, and perhaps some mutual but strained interests with Russia, China.

The Axis of Evil concept is retarded anyway.  Iran, Iraq, and North Korea may have been, or are, evil but they certainly were no axis.  The UK, US, and Israel at least could be an axis as they actually have relations with each other.

[Sheilbh]

I saw tv reports of large demonstrations in Tehran yesterday, (Sunday). Police and security using heavy measures to disperse crowds. But still, I was surprised that a larger demonstration even took place.

I believe there have been a number of demonstrations going on though everyone seems to be taking the fight into the system.  There are reports that around 5 members of Rafsanjani's family have been arrested and he's apparently pushing for a triumvirate of clerics to take on the 'supreme leadership' so that Khamenei wouldn't be the only supreme leader (remember that Khamenei has very bad religious credentials, he got his Ayatollah title from the Shia equivalent of a degree mill).

At the same time, as in 1979, I've read that every night Tehran's filled with the sound of people shouting 'Allah-o-akbar' from the rooftops.  This hasn't gone away by any stretch of the imagination.  I think the past fortnight's events have been a fatal blow to either the Islamic Republic or the Khamenei regime and it's now just a matter of time. 

Iran's President has been revving things up, blaming the West, vows to make the West pay, etc. And also detained UK ambassador staff? Hmm... I'm sure some of that sells with those who want to believe, the hard liners and such, but surely has the opposite reaction with everyone else. But it probably gives Iranian leaders some cover to crack down on protests, or foment more trouble in Iraq, Gaza, Lebanon or where ever.

Well you've got to remember Iran's history when we're talking about paranoia about 'foreign meddling'.  Off the top of my head I can think of maybe three regimes that the UK got rid of in Iran in the past century.  The Shah always blamed the British for his overthrow (because the government refused to censor the BBC).  That doesn't even mention the Great Game playing with Iran or the partition between Britain and the USSR in WW2. 

I think there's a good reason why there's a very paranoid element in Iranian nationalism and that's why it can work.

Having said that, I think that very few people will find it believable in this case because the protests have been so large and so broad-based, whereas a few thousand 'westernised' students is a different sell altogether.

[Josquius]

Where are you following this Shielbh?
The TV news and the papers have lost all interest.

[Valmy]

Where are you following this Shielbh?
The TV news and the papers have lost all interest.

The news drives me nuts this way.  They cover things like the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine or the War in Georgia and then drop it and you never hear how it ended up.  What is the point of caring about world events if you never get to see why they were relevent?

[KRonn]

Where are you following this Shielbh?
The TV news and the papers have lost all interest.

The news drives me nuts this way.  They cover things like the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine or the War in Georgia and then drop it and you never hear how it ended up.  What is the point of caring about world events if you never get to see why they were relevent?

Agreed there. It can be frustrating trying to get information after things quiet down, or once focus/interest shifts a bit away.

[Malthus]

Where are you following this Shielbh?
The TV news and the papers have lost all interest.

The news drives me nuts this way.  They cover things like the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine or the War in Georgia and then drop it and you never hear how it ended up.  What is the point of caring about world events if you never get to see why they were relevent?

Agreed there. It can be frustrating trying to get information after things quiet down, or once focus/interest shifts a bit away.

Heh, the news has all the attention span of a three year old.

"The end of the world appears probable at this time, scientists say ... WOOOT! Michael Jackson!"

[Sheilbh]

Don't forget that news agencies are under very high restrictions in Iran.  The BBC correspondent is basically following every sentence with 'we can't report from the streets, so this is unconfirmed' and every dispatch starts with a line about the 'restrictions' journalists are placed on 'though there are no restrictions on what they can say'.

[jimmy olsen]

Veddy interesting.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31745151/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/

Leading clerics defy Ayatollah on Iran election
Act against supreme leader is most public sign of split in establishment

By Michael Slackman and Nazila Fathi
updated 2 hours, 23 minutes ago

CAIRO - The most important group of religious leaders in Iran called the disputed presidential election and the new government illegitimate on Saturday, an act of defiance against the country's supreme leader and the most public sign of a major split in the country's clerical establishment.

A statement by the group, the Association of Researchers and Teachers of Qum, represents a significant, if so far symbolic, setback for the government and especially the authority of the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, whose word is supposed to be final. The government has tried to paint the opposition and its top presidential candidate, Mir Hussein Moussavi, as criminals and traitors, a strategy that now becomes more difficult — if not impossible.

"This crack in the clerical establishment, and the fact they are siding with the people and Moussavi, in my view is the most historic crack in the 30 years of the Islamic republic," said Abbas Milani, director of the Iranian Studies Program at Stanford University. "Remember, they are going against an election verified and sanctified by Khamenei."

'Foreign agents'
The announcement came on a day when Mr. Moussavi released documents detailing a campaign of fraud by the current president's supporters, and as a close associate of the supreme leader called Mr. Moussavi and former President Mohammad Khatami "foreign agents," saying they should be treated as criminals.

The documents, published on Mr. Moussavi's Web site, accused supporters of the president of printing more than 20 million extra ballots before the vote and handing out cash bonuses to voters.

Since the election, the bulk of the clerical establishment in the holy city of Qum, an important religious and political center of power, has remained largely silent, leaving many to wonder when, or if, the nation's most senior religious leaders would jump into the controversy that has posed the most significant challenge to the country's leadership since the Islamic Revolution.

With its statement Saturday, the association of clerics — formed under the leadership of the revolution's founder, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini — came down squarely on the side of the reform movement.

The association includes reformists, but Iranian political analysts describe it as independent, and it did not support any candidate in the recent election.

The group had earlier asked for the election to be nullified because so many Iranians objected to the results, but it never directly challenged the legitimacy of the government and, by extension, the supreme leader.

The earlier statement also came before the election was certified by the country's religious leaders, who have since said that opposition to the results must cease.

Could fizzle
The clerics' decision to speak up again is not itself a turning point and could fizzle under pressure from the state, which has continued to threaten its critics. Some seminaries in Qum rely on the government for funds, and Ayatollah Khamenei and the man he has declared the winner of the election, incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, have powerful backers there.

They also retain the support of the powerful security forces and the elite Revolutionary Guards. In addition, the country's highest-ranking clerics have yet to speak out individually against the election results.

But the association's latest statement does help Mr. Moussavi, Mr. Khatami and a former speaker of Parliament, Mehdi Karroubi, who have been the most vocal in calling the election illegitimate and who, in their attempts to force change, have been hindered by the jailing of influential backers.

"The significance is that even within the clergy, there are many who refuse to recognize the legitimacy of the election results as announced by the supreme leader," said an Iranian political analyst who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.

While the government could continue vilifying the three opposition leaders, analysts say it was highly unlikely that the leadership would use the same tactic against the clerical establishment in Qum.

The backing also came at a sensitive time for Mr. Moussavi, because the accusations that he is a foreign agent ran in a newspaper, Kayhan, that has often been used to build cases against critics of the government.

The editorial was written by Hossein Shariatmadari, who was picked by the supreme leader to run the newspaper.

The clerics' statement chastised the leadership for failing to adequately study complaints of vote rigging and lashed out at the use of force in crushing huge public protests.

It even directly criticized the Guardian Council, the powerful group of clerics charged with certifying elections.

"Is it possible to consider the results of the election as legitimate by merely the validation of the Guardian Council?" the association said.

Perhaps more threatening to the supreme leader, the committee called on other clerics to join the fight against the government's refusal to adequately reconsider the charges of voter fraud. The committee invoked powerful imagery, comparing the 20 protesters killed during demonstrations with the martyrs who died in the early days of the revolution and the war with Iraq, asking other clerics to save what it called "the dignity that was earned with the blood of tens of thousands of martyrs."

The statement was posted on the association's Web site late Saturday and carried on many other sites, including the Persian BBC, but it was impossible to reach senior clerics in the group to independently confirm its veracity.

The statement was issued after a meeting Mr. Moussavi had with the committee 10 days ago and a decision by the Guardian Council to certify the election and declare that all matters concerning the vote were closed.

Defiance has not ended
But the defiance has not ended.

With heavy security on the streets, there is a forced calm. But each day, slowly, another link falls from the chain of government control. Last week, in what appeared a coordinated thrust, Mr. Moussavi, Mr. Karroubi and Mr. Khatami all called the new government illegitimate. On Saturday, Mr. Milani of Stanford said, former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani met with families of those who had been arrested, another sign that he was working behind the scenes to keep the issue alive.

"I don't ever remember in the 20 years of Khamenei's rule where he was clearly and categorically on one side and so many clergy were on the other side," Mr. Milani said. "This might embolden other clergy to come forward."

The committee of clergy was formed in the 1960s. Mr. Milani said that for years, Ayatollah Khamenei also belonged to the group, and that it had developed some political clout by backing successful candidates for national office.

Many of the accusations of fraud posted on Mr. Moussavi's Web site Saturday had been published before, but the report did give some more specific charges.

For instance, although the government had announced that two of the losing presidential contenders had received relatively few votes in their hometowns, the documents stated that some ballot boxes in those towns contained no votes for the two men.

Michael Slackman reported from Cairo, and Nazila Fathi from Toronto.

This story, "Leading Clerics Defy Ayatollah on Disputed Iran Election," originally appeared in the New York Times.

[KRonn]

Yeah Tim, I saw that on tv news today. Quite significant, it would seem.

[KRonn]

Puts pressure on Pres Obama to respond, I'd say. If Obama meets then he perhaps helps legitimize this guy and the Iranian regime in the current protest climate. But not sure what choice Obama would have if Ahmadinejad does remain President, since we want to pressure Iran to stop nuke production.

Also, at the end of the article, some people executed for illegal drug offenses. I wonder why this info is in a political story? Or if those were political exectutions perhaps?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/04/iran.ahmadinejad.obama/index.html
[size]
Report: Ahmadinejad says he wants public talks with Obama

TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said he wants to engage President Obama in "negotiations" before international media, a semi-official Iranian news outlet reported on Saturday.

Speaking at a meeting of medical school deans, Ahmadinejad said Iran "will soon pursue a new round of diplomatic activity" amid a new position of strength for the Iranian government, the Iranian Student News Agency quotes him as saying.

"I will go to the United Nations and will invite Obama to negotiations," Ahmadinejad said, adding that such talks would be "in front of the international media, not a sit-down behind closed doors in order to talk about matters."

The Obama administration has sought dialogue with Iran but also criticized the government for its handling of unrest after disputed presidential elections.

Last week, Obama said Iran's government must justify itself not in the eyes of the United States, but in the opinion of its own people.

"A sizable percentage of the Iranian people themselves ... consider this election illegitimate," he said at a White House news conference. "It is not too late for the Iranian government to recognize that there is a peaceful path that will lead to stability and prosperity."

Initially, Obama was criticized by Republicans such as Sen. John McCain of Arizona and Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina for taking a "timid and passive" tone in speaking out against the growing wave of arrests, violence and deaths of pro-democracy activists.

Ahmadinejad said he wants others to stop "meddling" in the internal affairs of Iran.

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Iranian officials, including Ahmadinejad, claimed nations such as the United States and Britain have meddled in Iranian affairs. Last week, Ahmadinejad said officials were "astonished" over what they called meddling and warned of repercussions if meddling continues.

"Didn't he [Obama] say that he was after change?" Ahmadinejad asked Iranian judiciary officials in a speech last week. "Why did he interfere? Why did he utter remarks irrespective of norms and decorum?"

"They keep saying that they want to hold talks with Iran," Ahmadinejad said. "All right, we have expressed our readiness as well. But is this the correct way [for holding talks]?"

Meanwhile, two major political figures have been meeting family members of those detained amid post-election unrest.

One was former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani -- chief of the Expediency Council and supporter of opposition leader Mir Hussein Moussavi, according to the semi-official Iranian Labor News Agency.

The other was Mehdi Karrubi, one of the opposition candidates, who reportedly paid visits to families of political detainees, according to the Etemad-e-Melli, Karrubi's newspaper.

Meanwhile, the semi-official Fars News Agency reported that 20 people between the ages of 35 to 48 were executed in Iran on Saturday for "buying, selling and holding heroin, cocaine and opium."

[Queequeg]

I keep reading about ultra-hardline Clerics talking about how protesting and talking about how fixed the elections were is now some kind of religious version of treason by itself.  They sure are acting like they pulled off a coup.  Don't think that is the right move on their part.