Nine dead. :weep:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/multiple-people-shot-historic-south-carolina-church-n377436
:(
:(
Very sad.
Possibly an assassination motive as well?
http://www.nytimes.com/live/updates-on-charleston-church-shooting/?partner=rss&emc=rss
QuoteThe Rev. Clementa Pinckney, the church's pastor and a state senator, was killed, according to the minority leader of the State House of Representatives.
Fucked up
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHwtOt4WsAEAwg8.png:large)
:(
Another lonely white guy? I am not even going to bother to check.
This is a disaster. Makes me physically ill just thinking about it.
What have you been hearing about this Ide?
He's a 21-25 year old kid. He sat in the church for an hour with these people before he opened fire on them. He's still at large. I expect them to find his body soon enough. Dead by suicide.
Quote from: merithyn on June 18, 2015, 09:12:01 AM
He's a 21-25 year old kid. He sat in the church for an hour with these people before he opened fire on them. He's still at large. I expect them to find his body soon enough. Dead by suicide.
So senseless.
The quotes attributed to this guy...
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/charleston-church-shooting-police-call-help-catch-gunman-loose-n377546
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 18, 2015, 09:24:32 AM
The quotes attributed to this guy...
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/charleston-church-shooting-police-call-help-catch-gunman-loose-n377546
Quote"You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go," the shooter told the group, according to the survivor's account to Johnson
Words fail me.
Suspect named:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/06/18/charleston-suspect-is-dylann-roof.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/06/18/charleston-suspect-is-dylann-roof.html)
Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2015, 09:27:34 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 18, 2015, 09:24:32 AM
The quotes attributed to this guy...
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/charleston-church-shooting-police-call-help-catch-gunman-loose-n377546
Quote"You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go," the shooter told the group, according to the survivor's account to Johnson
Words fail me.
Like something out of the mouth of KKK member from the '20s.
His Facebook account. Creepy as fuck.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009674437955 (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009674437955)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11167962_111398835859264_82145487461570196_n.jpg?oh=b03a704ef6f9d6f393dfc29b29c467b9&oe=55E7355B)
I find it puzzling some kid could wear stuff like that and not be suspected of being dangerous.
The flags of apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia...?
His fucking eyes are mental.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 18, 2015, 09:45:32 AM
The flags of apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia...?
Yep. And not without further context.
I don't even want to think about the victims. What a senseless way to die.
One woman saved herself and her 5-year-old granddaughter by pretending to be dead. Another woman survived because he wanted her to tell others what happened.
Fry him.
Quote from: merithyn on June 18, 2015, 09:44:00 AM
His Facebook account. Creepy as fuck.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009674437955 (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009674437955)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11167962_111398835859264_82145487461570196_n.jpg?oh=b03a704ef6f9d6f393dfc29b29c467b9&oe=55E7355B)
Gahh. That face. He could star in a Steven King movie.
Quote from: merithyn on June 18, 2015, 09:52:42 AM
One woman saved herself and her 5-year-old granddaughter by pretending to be dead. Another woman survived because he wanted her to tell others what happened.
Fry him.
Doubt he will be captured alive.
My guess is he was one of a handful of white kids in a majority black public school.
He's been captured, unfortunately alive.
You know, not like it is ever, EVER, a good time to murder nine people in cold blood, but it's just extra creepy to me that he could come in, sit through studying scripture, and then murder nine people.
Rhodesian flag. I had to look it up.
Quote from: derspiess on June 18, 2015, 10:52:04 AM
He's been captured, unfortunately alive.
Pity. Well maybe we will get to fry him after all.
Quote from: derspiess on June 18, 2015, 10:53:48 AM
Rhodesian flag. I had to look it up.
I didn't need to. The context made it pretty obvious what it was.
Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2015, 10:58:23 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 18, 2015, 10:52:04 AM
He's been captured, unfortunately alive.
Pity. Well maybe we will get to fry him after all.
It's always more satisfying to fry them after a full trial. :)
Quote from: Barrister on June 18, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2015, 10:58:23 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 18, 2015, 10:52:04 AM
He's been captured, unfortunately alive.
Pity. Well maybe we will get to fry him after all.
It's always more satisfying to fry them after a full trial. :)
No. They get more publicity that way. Better that they are gunned down (unless they take some cops with them).
Quote from: derspiess on June 18, 2015, 11:22:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 18, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2015, 10:58:23 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 18, 2015, 10:52:04 AM
He's been captured, unfortunately alive.
Pity. Well maybe we will get to fry him after all.
It's always more satisfying to fry them after a full trial. :)
No. They get more publicity that way. Better that they are gunned down (unless they take some cops with them).
And that publicity almost invariably further discredits the killer and their belief system.
And there probably are some foul corners of South Carolina where it still needs discrediting.
These sorts of incidents always bring the same question to my mind - that is, the issue of whether people like this are evil terrorists, or simply insane, or both. Not "insane" in the legal sense of the word necessarily, of course.
Take that guy BB brought up who shot a cop in Alberta - he strikes me as being, basically, nuts.
Insular white dude nutcases. They are really becoming a menace.
Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2015, 09:45:18 AM
I find it puzzling some kid could wear stuff like that and not be suspected of being dangerous.
Even more puzzling that someone decided it would be a good idea to give him gun for his birthday present.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 18, 2015, 12:46:19 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2015, 09:45:18 AM
I find it puzzling some kid could wear stuff like that and not be suspected of being dangerous.
Even more puzzling that someone decided it would be a good idea to give him gun for his birthday present.
That person is basically a murderer in my book.
Yeah, I read that and I was like :bleeding:
"My son is a crazy racist loner? I know what he needs for his birthday then!" :wacko:
Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2015, 09:45:18 AM
I find it puzzling some kid could wear stuff like that and not be suspected of being dangerous.
he's not muslim, where could the problem be?
Quote from: Malthus on June 18, 2015, 12:38:13 PM
These sorts of incidents always bring the same question to my mind - that is, the issue of whether people like this are evil terrorists, or simply insane, or both. Not "insane" in the legal sense of the word necessarily, of course.
I think it was in the NYT last year, but some researchers did a study on this, terrorists like the 9/11 guys, and mass shooters.
While it was hard to get conclusive results because some are killed during their acts, it seems the psychological profile is very close.
edit
Here is the study (http://online.sagepub.com/search/results?src_selected=selectComplete&submit=yes&journal_set=sphsx&productpage=hsx&src=selected&fulltext=Lankford&sendit.x=0&sendit.y=0)
And a news paper article: Link (http://ideas.time.com/2013/04/23/terrorists-and-mass-shooters-more-similar-than-we-thought/)
In this case, given the obvious political message, it is terrorism.
Quote from: Caliga on June 18, 2015, 12:56:41 PM
Yeah, I read that and I was like :bleeding:
"My son is a crazy racist loner? I know what he needs for his birthday then!" :wacko:
there's no better way to socialize than at a shooting club, drinking some beers and shooting targets.
Quote from: viper37 on June 18, 2015, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 18, 2015, 12:38:13 PM
These sorts of incidents always bring the same question to my mind - that is, the issue of whether people like this are evil terrorists, or simply insane, or both. Not "insane" in the legal sense of the word necessarily, of course.
I think it was in the NYT last year, but some researchers did a study on this, terrorists like the 9/11 guys, and mass shooters.
While it was hard to get conclusive results because some are killed during their acts, it seems the psychological profile is very close.
edit
Here is the study (http://online.sagepub.com/search/results?src_selected=selectComplete&submit=yes&journal_set=sphsx&productpage=hsx&src=selected&fulltext=Lankford&sendit.x=0&sendit.y=0)
And a news paper article: Link (http://ideas.time.com/2013/04/23/terrorists-and-mass-shooters-more-similar-than-we-thought/)
In this case, given the obvious political message, it is terrorism.
Interesting stuff. Thanks. :)
Quote from: viper37 on June 18, 2015, 03:27:53 PM
there's no better way to socialize than at a shooting club, drinking some beers and shooting targets.
:yes: This is true. I like the zombie targets BTW.
Quote from: Malthus on June 18, 2015, 12:38:13 PM
These sorts of incidents always bring the same question to my mind - that is, the issue of whether people like this are evil terrorists, or simply insane, or both. Not "insane" in the legal sense of the word necessarily, of course.
A racist mentally-ill drug addict. Not much question here.
This shooter was apprehended wearing a Rainbow Dash t-shirt. I'm appalled at his taste in ponies.
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 18, 2015, 06:06:49 PM
This shooter was apprehended wearing a Rainbow Dash t-shirt. I'm appalled at his taste in ponies.
*facepalm*
Bronies should all be shot.
Actually this would be a good excuse to stage a Bronycaust. :hmm:
All jokes about his brony affiliation or hipster taste in supremacist flags aside, this really is sad. What surprises me is it that it isn't more common- People who look and talk like Dylann Roof are a dime a dozen. In fact, you can at this very moment find him the man of the hour amongst his former demographic of lonely losers who hang out in their weeaboo white supremacist echo-chambers.
Nobody wants to hear about sympathy for murderers (especially racist ones, as this proves somehow a greater anathema still than mere murder, but I feel like I can understand this person. It bothers me people are already talking about mental illness- it's no such thing; just a murderous racist who acted on the stuff a lot of them talk about all the time. His actions shouldn't be explained away as those of the mentally ill, or anyway any more mentally ill than other fringe extremists whose ideology drives them to violence.
I don't really see how this is supposed to be solved. It seems like the South is just a rough deal for all parties involved, and the best solution is to not be anywhere near- and that's a very sad thought.
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 19, 2015, 02:12:05 AM
All jokes about his brony affiliation or hipster taste in supremacist flags aside, this really is sad. What surprises me is it that it isn't more common- People who look and talk like Dylann Roof are a dime a dozen. In fact, you can at this very moment find him the man of the hour amongst his former demographic of lonely losers who hang out in their weeaboo white supremacist echo-chambers.
Nobody wants to hear about sympathy for murderers (especially racist ones, as this proves somehow a greater anathema still than mere murder, but I feel like I can understand this person. It bothers me people are already talking about mental illness- it's no such thing; just a murderous racist who acted on the stuff a lot of them talk about all the time. His actions shouldn't be explained away as those of the mentally ill, or anyway any more mentally ill than other fringe extremists whose ideology drives them to violence.
I don't really see how this is supposed to be solved. It seems like the South is just a rough deal for all parties involved, and the best solution is to not be anywhere near- and that's a very sad thought.
Space is probably safest.
Nah, then they come back and attack Earth with an invasion fleet.
No, once the Confederacy reconstitutes itself in space it is the United Earth Directorate that attacks them.
In space, no one can hear you whistle "Dixie".
Whoops
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/18/one-photo-perfectly-captures-the-insanity-of-americas-relationship-with-guns/
Quote from: Caliga on June 18, 2015, 12:56:41 PM
Yeah, I read that and I was like :bleeding:
"My son is a crazy racist loner? I know what he needs for his birthday then!" :wacko:
I read today that he received money for his birthday, not a gun. He decided by himself to buy a gun. His best friend hid the gun from him because he felt he would do something stupid, but he was convinced by his fiancee to give it back because it would get him in trouble.
Oh... :hmm:
That's weird, I read his father gave him the gun and could face a possible 10 year sentence if he was aware of his son's drug charges.
Maybe his dad gave him cash and told him to go buy himself a gun.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 19, 2015, 09:47:55 AM
Maybe his dad gave him cash and told him to go buy himself a gun.
He wouldn't have passed a background check.
Gun show? :hmm:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH35sEQWcAAJLDY.png)
Quote from: derspiess on June 19, 2015, 09:45:02 AM
That's weird, I read his father gave him the gun and could face a possible 10 year sentence if he was aware of his son's drug charges.
maybe my info was wrong, I took it from a local newspaper, I didn't check the US papers on this.
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 19, 2015, 02:12:05 AM
All jokes about his brony affiliation or hipster taste in supremacist flags aside, this really is sad. What surprises me is it that it isn't more common- People who look and talk like Dylann Roof are a dime a dozen. In fact, you can at this very moment find him the man of the hour amongst his former demographic of lonely losers who hang out in their weeaboo white supremacist echo-chambers.
Nobody wants to hear about sympathy for murderers (especially racist ones, as this proves somehow a greater anathema still than mere murder, but I feel like I can understand this person. It bothers me people are already talking about mental illness- it's no such thing; just a murderous racist who acted on the stuff a lot of them talk about all the time. His actions shouldn't be explained away as those of the mentally ill, or anyway any more mentally ill than other fringe extremists whose ideology drives them to violence.
I don't really see how this is supposed to be solved. It seems like the South is just a rough deal for all parties involved, and the best solution is to not be anywhere near- and that's a very sad thought.
I could solve it in a day with two atomic bombs. I need two in case they need me to prove I'm serious.
The unbelievable decency of the victim's families is pretty heart wrenching. They are better Christians than me.
Quote from: Valmy on June 19, 2015, 04:33:10 PM
The unbelievable decency of the victim's families is pretty heart wrenching. They are better Christians than me.
Me too. It's kinda inspiring actually.
Thank God, Viking isn't here to see it.
The Amish did the same thing when the crazy dude shot up one of their schoolhouses and killed a bunch of their kids about ten years ago. That shooter killed himself, and they all went to his funeral too.
(https://41.media.tumblr.com/6121ca334a204e72ae25ad02fa7cd244/tumblr_nq5yjmCBL01twpg5io1_540.jpg)
Gotta love the NRA :lol: :weep:
South Carolina :bleeding::bleeding::bleeding:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/19/benjamin-tillman-south-carolina_n_7622334.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013
QuoteThis Racist Terrorist Did Far More Damage Than Dylann Roof. Now He Watches Over South Carolina's Statehouse.
Posted: 06/19/2015 2:30 pm EDT Updated: 06/19/2015 2:59 pm EDT
Benjamin Ryan "Pitchfork Ben" Tillman was a popular politician, a campaign finance reformer, a wealthy landowner, a successful farmer, one of the founding fathers of a university, the governor of South Carolina, a U.S. senator, and was even once considered a potential Democratic presidential candidate.
Yet much like Dylann Roof, who shot and killed nine people at an African-American church in Charleston this week, Tillman was also a racist terrorist. While authorities in South Carolina have one of these men behind bars, the state is simultaneously honoring the other racist terrorist with an 8-foot statue on the grounds of the statehouse.
There's been a lot of discussion about the Confederate flag that flies on the grounds of the South Carolina statehouse in Columbia, which was still at full mast Thursday. But just steps away from that flag, South Carolina is honoring Tillman, who -- as columnist Will Moredock wrote for Charleston City Paper last year -- most historians today regard "as a fire-breathing racist, opportunist, and demagogue who played on the worst of human nature to promote himself to the highest levels of state government."
Just like Roof, Tillman was proud of the role he played in slaughtering African-Americans, and both Roof and Tillman were involved in killing black state senators. The black state senator who Roof killed, Clementa C. Pinckney, was shot at a bible study at a church. The black state senator killed under Tillman's watch, Simon Coker, was -- according to Tillman's own account -- on his knees praying when he was shot. Tillman said that while it may "appear a ruthless and cruel thing," the struggle he was involved in "meant more than life or death. It involved everything we held dear, Anglo-Saxon civilization included."
Tillman said on the floor of the Senate that the South had "never recognized the right of the negro to govern white men, and we never will." While Roof reportedly said he had to slaughter African-Americans because they "rape our women" and are "taking over our country, Tillman said southern whites would lynch any African-American who would go about "gratifying his lust on our wives and daughters."
Tillman said he and others had "done our level best" to stop black citizens from voting, and that white supremacists had "scratched our heads to find out how we could eliminate the last one of them. We stuffed ballot boxes. We shot them. We are not ashamed of it.
Speaking about the Hamburg Massacre of 1876, when his militia killed black Republicans, Tillman said he and his men intended to "strike terror," and that leaving "seven dead Negroes lying stark and stiff" had the impact they desired.
The white supremacist group Stormfront calls Tillman one of "the greatest men South Carolina and indeed this nation has ever produced."
The statue honoring Tillman was unveiled in 1940, just 75 years ago. A bill to remove the statue from the grounds of the statehouse stalled in 2008. But the statue isn't the only way Tillman is still being honored: Just a few months ago, in February 2015, the board of trustees at Clemson University voted not to change the school's clock tower, which is named Tillman Hall.
Quote from: Valmy on June 18, 2015, 11:30:44 AM
And there probably are some foul corners of South Carolina where it still needs discrediting.
Like the city halls still flying the flag of traitorous racist scum?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 19, 2015, 03:58:07 AM
In space, no one can hear you whistle "Dixie".
Well, I for one would support all confederacy supporters to be sent into space - and then let their shape ships decompress.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 19, 2015, 03:58:07 AM
In space, no one can hear you whistle "Dixie".
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs11.postimg.org%2F48vqwnxqr%2FTerran_Confederacy_SC2_Art1.jpg&hash=4fea822aa0787814211da5157e082923c1f3874a)
stay classy NRA
http://gawker.com/nra-board-member-blames-charleston-shooting-deaths-on-v-1712819037
Quote from: HVC on June 20, 2015, 09:05:26 PM
stay classy NRA
http://gawker.com/nra-board-member-blames-charleston-shooting-deaths-on-v-1712819037 (http://gawker.com/nra-board-member-blames-charleston-shooting-deaths-on-v-1712819037)
Conceal and Carry is legal there, so his position is irrelevant. Anyone could have legally had a gun.
The wingnuts manifesto :yuk:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/us/dylann-storm-roof-photos-website-charleston-church-shooting.html?_r=0
Server's crashing, so here's the wayback machine
Manifesto
https://web.archive.org/web/20150620135047/http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txt
Dead body from the movie Romper Stomper is the page picture. Pretty real looking. Click the photos link to download a zip file
https://web.archive.org/web/20150620134455/http://lastrhodesian.com/
Nice gesture.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/20/jerry-richardson-donates-100000-to-charleston-murder-victims
QuoteJerry Richardson donates $100,000 to Charleston murder victims
Posted by Mike Florio on June 20, 2015, 12:53 PM EDT
Jerry Richardson AP
The tragedy that rocked Charleston, South Carolina three days ago has resonated throughout America. For Panthers owner Jerry Richardson, it prompted a specific act of generosity.
Via Panthers defensive Colin Cole's Twitter account, Richardson has donated $100,000 to the victims of the mass shooting, with $10,000 to each of the families of the nine murder victims to help defray funeral costs and $10,000 to the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.
"Some things are just bigger than football," Cole wrote. "Thank you Mr. Richardson."
Anyone interested in making a contribution to the Mother Emanuel Hope Fund can do so by following the instructions here.
Tim, who cares about some crazy loser's 'manifesto'?
By reporting on it the media is giving him exactly what he wants. I couldn't care less what his thoughts on race are.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 21, 2015, 07:21:33 AM
Nice gesture.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/20/jerry-richardson-donates-100000-to-charleston-murder-victims
QuoteJerry Richardson donates $100,000 to Charleston murder victims
Posted by Mike Florio on June 20, 2015, 12:53 PM EDT
Jerry Richardson AP
The tragedy that rocked Charleston, South Carolina three days ago has resonated throughout America. For Panthers owner Jerry Richardson, it prompted a specific act of generosity.
Via Panthers defensive Colin Cole's Twitter account, Richardson has donated $100,000 to the victims of the mass shooting, with $10,000 to each of the families of the nine murder victims to help defray funeral costs and $10,000 to the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.
"Some things are just bigger than football," Cole wrote. "Thank you Mr. Richardson."
Anyone interested in making a contribution to the Mother Emanuel Hope Fund can do so by following the instructions here.
That's the guy who actually wrote back when a kid wrote to all the teams to ask which team he should support, right?
Cool guy.
Quote from: Caliga on June 21, 2015, 07:58:17 AM
Tim, who cares about some crazy loser's 'manifesto'?
By reporting on it the media is giving him exactly what he wants. I couldn't care less what his thoughts on race are.
My thoughts exactly.
Yeah, I mean if I wanted to read essays on race in America, I'd turn to Cornel West or someone like that who actually has spent a career studying it... not some piece of shit racist twerp who's done nothing but play video games for his short, worthless life. :mellow:
...and Tim, to be clear, I don't mean to come across as picking on you for posting that, since your Languish role is resident newsboy, but it just irritates me that the media give losers like this a platform.
"But what about the White people that are left behind? What about the White children who, because of school zoning laws, are forced to go to a school that is 90 percent black? Do we really think that that White kid will be able to go one day without being picked on for being White, or called a "white boy"? And who is fighting for him? Who is fighting for these White people forced by economic circumstances to live among negroes? No one, but someone has to. "
Some support for my thesis.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2015, 12:14:35 PM
"But what about the White people that are left behind? What about the White children who, because of school zoning laws, are forced to go to a school that is 90 percent black? Do we really think that that White kid will be able to go one day without being picked on for being White, or called a "white boy"? And who is fighting for him? Who is fighting for these White people forced by economic circumstances to live among negroes? No one, but someone has to. "
Some support for my thesis.
Your thesis being?
He had bad experiences in a majority black high school or junior high.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2015, 12:55:44 PM
He had bad experiences in a majority black high school or junior high.
So it's the fault of black kids? Or of the system?
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2015, 01:58:42 PM
So it's the fault of black kids? Or of the system?
You've exposed me Marty. I was trying to dress up my position in ambiguities, but like a laser you've cut through my obfuscation. Yes, it was all the fault of black kids. In fact, I think everyone who gets badly treated by a black kid has the moral right to shoot one random black person.
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2015, 01:58:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2015, 12:55:44 PM
He had bad experiences in a majority black high school or junior high.
So it's the fault of black kids? Or of the system?
I don't know if he went to a majority black school, but apparently he lived in a majority black area.
It could be the same thing as that dude who went around shooting hot women at the gym because he hadn't had a date in like 10 years. He said he had a couple hundred thousand in the bank and he worked out, so it must be a conspiracy of good looking women not to give him the time of day.
The psycho doesn't fit in because he is psycho, and he blames others for his inability to fit in.
I just don't understand why that point is relevant, unless you actually want to make it relevant.
If someone points out that, say, Hitler had bad experiences with Jews, then this would not be an innocuous observation, but a loaded one.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 21, 2015, 02:17:27 PM
It could be the same thing as that dude who went around shooting hot women at the gym because he hadn't had a date in like 10 years. He said he had a couple hundred thousand in the bank and he worked out, so it must be a conspiracy of good looking women not to give him the time of day.
George Sodini. There was clearly something wrong with that guy... he had put up YouTube videos and by watching them you could tell he was 'off' somehow. I'm sure it was even easier to pick up on in person than via an internet video.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2015, 02:01:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2015, 01:58:42 PM
So it's the fault of black kids? Or of the system?
You've exposed me Marty. I was trying to dress up my position in ambiguities, but like a laser you've cut through my obfuscation. Yes, it was all the fault of black kids. In fact, I think everyone who gets badly treated by a black kid has the moral right to shoot one random black person.
I mean, he's right. The most charitable interpretation of your post is that you think there is a natural animus between races, and that in a desegregated society anytime one group outnumbers the other, or possibly even is forced to mix with the other in any way, the natural reaction is hatred.
Quote from: Ideologue on June 21, 2015, 02:39:30 PM
I mean, he's right. The most charitable interpretation of your post is that you think there is a natural animus between races, and that in a desegregated society anytime one group outnumbers the other, or possibly even is forced to mix with the other in any way, the natural reaction is hatred.
Point out the post which is open to this charitable interpretation, please.
This "discussion" is great.
Quote from: Ideologue on June 21, 2015, 02:39:30 PM
I mean, he's right. The most charitable interpretation of your post is that you think there is a natural animus between races, and that in a desegregated society anytime one group outnumbers the other, or possibly even is forced to mix with the other in any way, the natural reaction is hatred.
A more charitable interpretation would be that black inner cities can be brutal places that brutalize all inhabitants, whatever their color.
Understanding the root causes of an action, or even sympathizing with a murderer's situation, are not the same as condoning that action. If a person who had been violently raped in prison by a particular race responded by murdering random members of that race I would feel bad about the rape without celebrating the murder.
Are you now equating bullying with prison rape or "only" saying that bullying reasonably leads to mass murder? :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2015, 03:33:05 PM
Are you now equating bullying with prison rape or "only" saying that bullying reasonably leads to mass murder? :lol:
Foiled again. :(
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2015, 03:33:05 PM
Are you now equating bullying with prison rape or "only" saying that bullying reasonably leads to mass murder? :lol:
As his post said, what I am pretty sure he is saying that it is possible to condemn two separate bad/evil acts, even if those two acts are connected in a perverted way (e.g. the first act causing a person to commit another evil act, even if using that "cause" as a motive is, by itself, deeply flawed and wrong in our eyes).
As I said already, your decision to raise this point - and thus implicitly argue its relevance - speaks volumes of your internal thought process.
There is absolutely no reasonable justification or explanation that someone who is bullied (which was not even established - just a conjecture on your part) by members of one race then goes and mass-murders other (unrelated) members of the same race - except in the mind of a mad man. The fact that of all potential secondary influences, that are in fact (unlike the "bullying by inner city kids") documented and proven (such as living in a gun culture or a culture that glorifies history of brutal oppression and violence against black people, the victims of this mass murder), you choose to mention one that is most tangential speaks volumes of your agenda, as I said.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2015, 03:02:53 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on June 21, 2015, 02:39:30 PM
I mean, he's right. The most charitable interpretation of your post is that you think there is a natural animus between races, and that in a desegregated society anytime one group outnumbers the other, or possibly even is forced to mix with the other in any way, the natural reaction is hatred.
A more charitable interpretation would be that black inner cities can be brutal places that brutalize all inhabitants, whatever their color.
Understanding the root causes of an action, or even sympathizing with a murderer's situation, are not the same as condoning that action. If a person who had been violently raped in prison by a particular race responded by murdering random members of that race I would feel bad about the rape without celebrating the murder.
I don't mean to dog pile on you but he wasn't in an inner city school. He went to school in some small town out side of Columbia. The school he went to doesn't appear to be majority black. He seems to be dragging out the old "busing issue" that is part of the vernacular of racists. Is barely used anymore even in dog whistle politics. His issue with forced busing probably has more to do with the internet sites he alluded to then any personal experience. Same with the "they are raping our women" statement.
Quote from: Martinus on June 21, 2015, 03:39:33 PM
As I said already, your decision to raise this point - and thus implicitly argue its relevance - speaks volumes of your internal thought process.
There is absolutely no reasonable justification or explanation that someone who is bullied (which was not even established - just a conjecture on your part) by members of one race then goes and mass-murders other (unrelated) members of the same race - except in the mind of a mad man. The fact that of all potential secondary influences, that are in fact (unlike the "bullying by inner city kids") documented and proven (such as living in a gun culture or a culture that glorifies history of brutal oppression and violence against black people, the victims of this mass murder), you choose to mention one that is most tangential speaks volumes of your agenda, as I said.
I may be living in the wrong Amerikkka, but I don't think that we, as a culture overall, really glorify that brutal oppression anymore. Unless you're specifically referring to that narrow, niche, white supremacist culture.
I meant his home state.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 21, 2015, 03:41:01 PM
I don't mean to dog pile on you but he wasn't in an inner city school. He went to school in some small town out side of Columbia. The school he went to doesn't appear to be majority black. He seems to be dragging out the old "busing issue" that is part of the vernacular of racists. Is barely used anymore even in dog whistle politics. His issue with forced busing probably has more to do with the internet sites he alluded to then any personal experience. Same with the "they are raping our women" statement.
Some news source, perhaps one cited in this thread, perhaps CNN, mentioned that he bounced from school to school.
At least according to his "manifesto," he alludes to a situation that is the opposite of forced busing. He talks about white flight to the suburbs and being trapped in a majority black school district with rules that prevent registration in other schools.
I did see that he bounced from school to school, but nothing about an inner city school. He didn't live in a city area any more then he lived in Rhodesia. I picked up the information from the wiki site. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting#Suspect He seems to be just some dimwitted drop out. Because of his frustration he gravitated toward extreme right wing nonsense. He could have just as easily gravitated toward some other dumb ideology and become a Marxist movie reviewer or something similarly inane.
Once again you seem to be indifferent to the fact that you posted information which was not true.
And what is that?
Quote from: Razgovory on June 21, 2015, 07:01:30 PM
And what is that?
"I don't mean to dog pile on you but he wasn't in an inner city school. He went to school in some small town out side of Columbia. The school he went to doesn't appear to be majority black."
You don't know if one or more of the schools he went to is an inner city school.
"The school he went to" denotes he only went to one school. He went to more than one.
That's not exactly a fact that is untrue. None of the places he is reported to have lived have a large city near by.
Really?
I think it is at least theoretically possible to take pride in and show some nostalgia for the Confederate south, including it's iconic images (like the battle flag) without it being an endorsement of slavery or a reflection on the overtly racist nature of the Confederacy.
In theory.
And there are people who I know personally who when they talk about the Confederacy with a note of pride, I understand their position and can accept that there isn't any kind of racial over-tone to their position.
But the taint of slavery and the violent post-war racism makes this only theoretical when it comes to those who I cannot vouch for personally. The pervasiveness of race in the history of the Confederacy makes it very hard for me to buy into the general idea that someone going out of their way to shove those icons down the public's throats are doing so for any kind of defensible reason.
I imagine that in theory it is possible to acknowledge and appreciate German WW2 history without any attempt to whitewash the Nazi's as well. But in general, I am just as skeptical that some nutjob going on about the Wehrmacht in WW2 is really NOT a skinhead.
The taint of nazism and slavery both suffuse their respective histories so thorough;y that I don't even know if it is possible to consider them without.
Finally, the idea that those who are the continuing targets of that injustice should be expected to ignore that taint and just accept that they should tolerate living in a society that glorifies those who fought to enslave them is beyond the pale.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 21, 2015, 05:40:32 PM
I did see that he bounced from school to school, but nothing about an inner city school. He didn't live in a city area any more then he lived in Rhodesia. I picked up the information from the wiki site. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting#Suspect He seems to be just some dimwitted drop out. Because of his frustration he gravitated toward extreme right wing nonsense. He could have just as easily gravitated toward some other dumb ideology and become a Marxist movie reviewer or something similarly inane.
Is there a reason why we put up with you besides pity?
Quote from: Valmy on June 19, 2015, 04:33:10 PM
The unbelievable decency of the victim's families is pretty heart wrenching. They are better Christians than me.
This, by the way. Impressive display of Christian forgiveness. I'm not sure I could have done the same in similar circumstances.
p.s. I thought you were Universalist Valmy, not Christian.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2015, 07:17:01 PM
Really?
Yes, really. From what I can tell he lived around Columbia, South Carolina which has 130,000 people which is about the size of Columbia, Missouri which I have never considered a city either. You need like half a million to make a city.
That is silly Raz.
Quote from: katmai on June 21, 2015, 11:32:36 PM
That is silly Raz.
How big do you think a city needs to be?
Quote from: Razgovory on June 21, 2015, 11:34:09 PM
Quote from: katmai on June 21, 2015, 11:32:36 PM
That is silly Raz.
How big do you think a city needs to be?
Being that SC has well over 4 million people, and Columbia is the largest city, tells me that it is artificially hampered by the what is in the actual incorporated city limits, as opposed to it's metropolitan area...which for Columbia, happens to be nearly 800,000.
The East German judge acknowledges that it is a "city".
Quote from: Razgovory on June 21, 2015, 11:28:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2015, 07:17:01 PM
Really?
Yes, really. From what I can tell he lived around Columbia, South Carolina which has 130,000 people which is about the size of Columbia, Missouri which I have never considered a city either. You need like half a million to make a city.
Bizzare, half a million is not the benchmark to make a city.
Olympia,WA is a city. Pop around 50k
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 22, 2015, 12:28:53 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 21, 2015, 11:34:09 PM
Quote from: katmai on June 21, 2015, 11:32:36 PM
That is silly Raz.
How big do you think a city needs to be?
Being that SC has well over 4 million people, and Columbia is the largest city, tells me that it is artificially hampered by the what is in the actual incorporated city limits, as opposed to it's metropolitan area...which for Columbia, happens to be nearly 800,000.
The East German judge acknowledges that it is a "city".
Or that it merely has a very large area to describe a metropolitan area. Columbia and Jefferson City have over 300,000 people in their metropolitan areas, yet no terrible inner city that Yi was discussing. Lot of cows and pigs though. Yi accused me of lying despite not actually having evidence that I lied, he only the provides possibility that I may be wrong. I will concede it is possible that Mr. Roof was attended school in Chicago's South side or Compton, but I have seen no evidence of that and have no reason to think so. The only school I saw that he did attend did not look like an inner city school. The idea that someone would consider Columbia, SC a big city (big enough to have a rotting inner city of grinding poverty), honestly never occurred to me.
In my personal opinion, you need at least 100,000 in this day and age to be considered a city, and that's borderline.
I did find another high school he went to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreher_High_School
And this was the first one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Knoll_High_School
After that he seemed to have dropped out.
If he attended an "inner city school" then it was either a middle school or elementary school.
:nelson:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/21/charleston-confederate-statue-vandalism_n_7632702.html
QuotePolice say someone spray-painted the message "Black Lives Matter" on a statue memorializing the Confederacy in Charleston several days after a shooting at a historic black church.
Police spokesman Charles Francis said city workers used a tarp to cover up the graffiti marking the stone pedestal beneath the statue. He said he didn't know when the graffiti was spray-painted there, but said it would be cleaned off.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 21, 2015, 11:28:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 21, 2015, 07:17:01 PM
Really?
Yes, really. From what I can tell he lived around Columbia, South Carolina which has 130,000 people which is about the size of Columbia, Missouri which I have never considered a city either. You need like half a million to make a city.
I've been to Columbia, SC and portions of it at least definitely have the feel of a city, even if it doesn't meet your own personal, arbitrary definition of one.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 22, 2015, 01:24:42 AM
Or that it merely has a very large area to describe a metropolitan area. Columbia and Jefferson City have over 300,000 people in their metropolitan areas, yet no terrible inner city that Yi was discussing. Lot of cows and pigs though. Yi accused me of lying despite not actually having evidence that I lied, he only the provides possibility that I may be wrong. I will concede it is possible that Mr. Roof was attended school in Chicago's South side or Compton, but I have seen no evidence of that and have no reason to think so. The only school I saw that he did attend did not look like an inner city school. The idea that someone would consider Columbia, SC a big city (big enough to have a rotting inner city of grinding poverty), honestly never occurred to me.
You've conveniently forgotten the fact that you said he went to one school when he went to several.
Can we please switch back from "Raz does not know what a city is" to "Yi is racist" discussion?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2015, 07:23:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 22, 2015, 01:24:42 AM
Or that it merely has a very large area to describe a metropolitan area. Columbia and Jefferson City have over 300,000 people in their metropolitan areas, yet no terrible inner city that Yi was discussing. Lot of cows and pigs though. Yi accused me of lying despite not actually having evidence that I lied, he only the provides possibility that I may be wrong. I will concede it is possible that Mr. Roof was attended school in Chicago's South side or Compton, but I have seen no evidence of that and have no reason to think so. The only school I saw that he did attend did not look like an inner city school. The idea that someone would consider Columbia, SC a big city (big enough to have a rotting inner city of grinding poverty), honestly never occurred to me.
You've conveniently forgotten the fact that you said he went to one school when he went to several.
What is your point, btw?
Does him attending a high school where there were a lot of black people make his actions more or less interesting in any way?
Quote from: Barrister on June 21, 2015, 11:24:02 PM
p.s. I thought you were Universalist Valmy, not Christian.
Long answer: It's complicated and frankly I don't even care that much.
Short answer: Nope. Christian.
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 08:37:27 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2015, 07:23:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 22, 2015, 01:24:42 AM
Or that it merely has a very large area to describe a metropolitan area. Columbia and Jefferson City have over 300,000 people in their metropolitan areas, yet no terrible inner city that Yi was discussing. Lot of cows and pigs though. Yi accused me of lying despite not actually having evidence that I lied, he only the provides possibility that I may be wrong. I will concede it is possible that Mr. Roof was attended school in Chicago's South side or Compton, but I have seen no evidence of that and have no reason to think so. The only school I saw that he did attend did not look like an inner city school. The idea that someone would consider Columbia, SC a big city (big enough to have a rotting inner city of grinding poverty), honestly never occurred to me.
You've conveniently forgotten the fact that you said he went to one school when he went to several.
What is your point, btw?
Does him attending a high school where there were a lot of black people make his actions more or less interesting in any way?
I won't pretend to answer for Yi, but I believe that the fact he attended majority black school and got problems with some of the people (maybe he tried to get a girl and she went with a black dude instead), blacks became the focus of his paranoia, since he had problems with black people. Kinda like someone raped by a black man might develop hatred for all blacks.
Ji does not attempt to excuse the gesture, he attemps to find a rational cause for so much hatred, outside of the simpler, easier explanation that most southerners are racists to begin with.
So, in essence, is the man naturally evil or does he become evil through society.
Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2015, 08:40:28 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 21, 2015, 11:24:02 PM
p.s. I thought you were Universalist Valmy, not Christian.
Long answer: It's complicated and frankly I don't even care that much.
Short answer: Nope. Christian.
:hug:
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 08:37:27 AM
What is your point, btw?
I suspect his path to mass murderer was more personal than ideological.
Quote from: viper37 on June 22, 2015, 08:48:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 08:37:27 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2015, 07:23:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 22, 2015, 01:24:42 AM
Or that it merely has a very large area to describe a metropolitan area. Columbia and Jefferson City have over 300,000 people in their metropolitan areas, yet no terrible inner city that Yi was discussing. Lot of cows and pigs though. Yi accused me of lying despite not actually having evidence that I lied, he only the provides possibility that I may be wrong. I will concede it is possible that Mr. Roof was attended school in Chicago's South side or Compton, but I have seen no evidence of that and have no reason to think so. The only school I saw that he did attend did not look like an inner city school. The idea that someone would consider Columbia, SC a big city (big enough to have a rotting inner city of grinding poverty), honestly never occurred to me.
You've conveniently forgotten the fact that you said he went to one school when he went to several.
What is your point, btw?
Does him attending a high school where there were a lot of black people make his actions more or less interesting in any way?
I won't pretend to answer for Yi, but I believe that the fact he attended majority black school and got problems with some of the people (maybe he tried to get a girl and she went with a black dude instead), blacks became the focus of his paranoia, since he had problems with black people. Kinda like someone raped by a black man might develop hatred for all blacks.
Ji does not attempt to excuse the gesture, he attemps to find a rational cause for so much hatred, outside of the simpler, easier explanation that most southerners are racists to begin with.
So, in essence, is the man naturally evil or does he become evil through society.
The problem with this idea, well, one of them anyway, there are a few, is that it does not serve as any kind of explanation.
Lots of people have lots of problems with various other people. Very few of them decide to go into a church and randomly execute some as a result of those problems.
So even if we accept that idea that this is somehow related to his being treated badly (or his perception even that he was treated badly) by black people, it is not interesting. There are majority black schools here in Rochester NY where some of the students are not black - yet nobody has strolled into a downtown church here and killed a lot of people.
So even if we accept this idea that his "society" played some role, it gets us no closer to any kind of explanation or understanding of his actions.
We are still going to have to go back to other factors beyond his attending a school with black people.
This doesn't even begin to get into the more basic objection of the reasoning that sounds suspiciously like "Well, that is bad, of course, but if only those black people hadn't..."
Yeah, what Berkut said.
Quote from: Martinus on June 22, 2015, 09:09:45 AM
Yeah, what Berkut said.
Or anything else that disagrees with me.
That's a strange criteria for deciding if an explanatory variable is interesting or not. Mass murderers will always be a small subset of any explanatory variable, whether it's listening to death metal, owning a gun, living in a southern state, being a loner, wearing black, etc, etc.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2015, 10:08:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 22, 2015, 09:09:45 AM
Yeah, what Berkut said.
Or anything else that disagrees with me.
That's a strange criteria for deciding if an explanatory variable is interesting or not. Mass murderers will always be a small subset of any explanatory variable, whether it's listening to death metal, owning a gun, living in a southern state, being a loner, wearing black, etc, etc.
True. And particular variables about that mass murdered have that same problem.
Which is why I found it curious that the one you chose to latch onto was his possible attendance at a school that might have had a lot of black people attending...
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 10:20:14 AM
True. And particular variables about that mass murdered have that same problem.
Which is why I found it curious that the one you chose to latch onto was his possible attendance at a school that might have had a lot of black people attending...
I find it curious that you found that curious but did not find find it curious that Martinus wanted to focus on gun laws and southern history.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2015, 10:32:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 10:20:14 AM
True. And particular variables about that mass murdered have that same problem.
Which is why I found it curious that the one you chose to latch onto was his possible attendance at a school that might have had a lot of black people attending...
I find it curious that you found that curious but did not find find it curious that Martinus wanted to focus on gun laws and southern history.
Gun laws and southern history seem to have a much greater explanatory value than "Poor guy had to go to school with the blacks".
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2015, 10:32:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 10:20:14 AM
True. And particular variables about that mass murdered have that same problem.
Which is why I found it curious that the one you chose to latch onto was his possible attendance at a school that might have had a lot of black people attending...
I find it curious that you found that curious but did not find find it curious that Martinus wanted to focus on gun laws and southern history.
Southern history and gun laws seem more plausible explanations for what happened then an explanation that the shooter spent time around black people.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2015, 08:55:19 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 08:37:27 AM
What is your point, btw?
I suspect his path to mass murderer was more personal than ideological.
And how does wearing the Rhodesian flag come into this. Do you suspect he had some personal relation with that nation?
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 10:35:03 AM
Gun laws and southern history seem to have a much greater explanatory value than "Poor guy had to go to school with the blacks".
Why do you so often feel the need to twist and misrepresent others' arguments here? I mean, I know it's Languish but come on.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 12:27:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 10:35:03 AM
Gun laws and southern history seem to have a much greater explanatory value than "Poor guy had to go to school with the blacks".
Why do you so often feel the need to twist and misrepresent others' arguments here? I mean, I know it's Languish but come on.
Maybe you could take a shot at restating Yi's argument in a way that is more coherent.
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 08:56:17 AM
The problem with this idea, well, one of them anyway, there are a few, is that it does not serve as any kind of explanation.
Lots of people have lots of problems with various other people. Very few of them decide to go into a church and randomly execute some as a result of those problems.
So even if we accept that idea that this is somehow related to his being treated badly (or his perception even that he was treated badly) by black people, it is not interesting. There are majority black schools here in Rochester NY where some of the students are not black - yet nobody has strolled into a downtown church here and killed a lot of people.
So even if we accept this idea that his "society" played some role, it gets us no closer to any kind of explanation or understanding of his actions.
We are still going to have to go back to other factors beyond his attending a school with black people.
This doesn't even begin to get into the more basic objection of the reasoning that sounds suspiciously like "Well, that is bad, of course, but if only those black people hadn't..."
Many, many years ago, a ex soldier entered the Quebec parliament and started shooting at seperatist devils. Many people explained his gesture by the fact that a popular local radio shock jock was anti-seperatist.
Many years ago, a man, rejected for engineering studies, entered a University and started shooting women. The feminists were responsbile for his downfall. Because women were admitted to university, he could not attend it himself and was therefore condemned to a life of misery. Lots of people blamed the macho culture of Quebec and the hatred of women for his actions.
Not so many years ago, a dude in his bathrobe and wearing sandals took a gun and tried to force his way inside a place where our newly elected Premier was giving her victory speech. He hated seperatists. Many people explained his gesture by the fact that anglo-Montreal medias are notably anti-seperatist, often anti-french and spreading hate through the city.
Not so many months ago, a dude who recently (1 year prior) converted to islam tried to force his way in the Parliament of Canada, shooting an unarmed soldier and tried to shoot other people before he was shot to death. Many people explained his gestures by Canada's evil policies toward muslims in the middle east, our support for Israel, notably.
The justification for 9/11 and his hatred of America by Bin Laden was because you had Christian soldiers on muslim soil. That was the catalyste to his hatred.
I myself think that there are some people who are schyzophrenic, or have other, similar, mental health problem and something in their environment will act a some sort of catalyst on wich their hatred of the world will be focused. For some, it will be americans because all they hear is how Americans are evil. For other, it's the capitalists. It's the Women. It's the Blacks. It's the Jews. It's the Democrat. It's the "nigger" in the White House
Lots of sane people hear the same the thing and don't become homicidal maniac. Some of them do.
You control explosives very tightly. You could try to control guns very tightly, though in a country like the US, with so many weapons already in the hands of citizens of all kinds, I doubt it would be effective, even if you could ban the purchase of most guns, there's still a gazillion out there to be bought illegally.
Controlling the people is equally hard, but eventually, it will have to be looked at. Taboos need to be broken. Mentally unstable people need to be treated, but for that to happen, their friends, family and co-worker need to recognize the symptoms, accept it's a treatable disease and not a curse from God. Laws need to be changed so that people can be interned, even against their will, at least for the time to get a proper psych eval.
US does not have anti-speech laws and your Constitution pretty much protect hate speech. Changing laws on that will be as hard as changing laws on gun control, so good luck. You can't prevent people from saying the kind of things this kid listened to, not unless you decide to have anti-speech laws like in Canada, and even then it might not do much.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2015, 08:55:19 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 08:37:27 AM
What is your point, btw?
I suspect his path to mass murderer was more personal than ideological.
I can't find an english source for this, but I read in the paper not long ago that, according to one of his friend, he became racist when a girl he had a crush on started dating a black guy.
Bingo.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 12:36:22 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 12:27:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 10:35:03 AM
Gun laws and southern history seem to have a much greater explanatory value than "Poor guy had to go to school with the blacks".
Why do you so often feel the need to twist and misrepresent others' arguments here? I mean, I know it's Languish but come on.
Maybe you could take a shot at restating Yi's argument in a way that is more coherent.
I'll try. To me, it seems like Yi was initially making a side comment speculating that Roof might have been one of a handful of white kids in a mostly black school-- with the undertone that maybe had a hard time of it there and that might have contributed to his unfortunate hatred of blacks. I may have missed something in the thread, but I don't remember him expressing sympathy for the murderer or saying that it was simply that there were black kids at his school.
Quote from: viper37 on June 22, 2015, 01:01:24 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 22, 2015, 08:55:19 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 08:37:27 AM
What is your point, btw?
I suspect his path to mass murderer was more personal than ideological.
I can't find an english source for this, but I read in the paper not long ago that, according to one of his friend, he became racist when a girl he had a crush on started dating a black guy.
And the historical culture of his community had no role in him reacting to a black guy dating a girl he liked? Or no role in killing other black people because of that? I have no idea how that could possibly be separated out.
Excellent post viper.
I largely agree with most of what you are saying.
The only dispute I would have is the tone (and maybe I am reading it wrong) that is basically, "Well, changing laws are hard, and don't even work perfectly, so that isn't a solution..."
To the extent that this man's actions are suscpetible to societal pressure, we can change our societies attitudes. It is entirely possible, even if it is not easy.
Just thirty years ago, I live in a society where nearly everyone smoked, often a lot, and would think absolutely nothing about smoking in an enclosed car packed with children.
Smoking is a instrinsically personal activity with physiological and mental addictive qualiites that would seemingly be incredibly difficult to change.
Now, 30 year ago someone might say "You cannot just ban smoking! People love to smoke, and there is too much money in it, and it is an ingrained part of our culture. Trying to change it would be hopeless and pointless!" and that would be a pretty convincing argument.
Yet today, without ever banning smoking, nobody would even consider lighting a cig up in a car full of kids. The rate of smoking is a fraction of what it used to be. Culturally, smoking is not see as cool, healthy, or something desirable in any way. We made legal changes (restricting where you can smoke in public), economic changes (taxing consumption at high rates) and cultural changes (less "hey this is cool" advertising, etc).
I think the pervasive racism that still exists, that drives to some extent the actions of otherwise marginally stable individuals, can and should be attacked. Culturally, politically, and legally. They all go together, and they all feed off of one another. We cannot ban being a racist, but we can stop providing racism political cover by tolerating hogwash like "Let's put the confederate battle flag all over the place and name streets after Confederate generals because ZOMG TEH CIVIL WAR WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY!". There are steps that we can take that are political, where those steps are possible and constitutional. There are steps we as a society can take culturally, that I think are already happening - people standing up and speaking against such things. We are seeing that happen right now, and even this thread is some tiny piece of that.
So I don't think we should not do anything because whatever we can do can't work on it's own. I think we should continue to do what we can to combat this kind of ignorance, even if the steps to do so are often small and seemingly ineffective.
Vipe:Sure, we should have thought crime legislation, but not cameras, and I'm the extremist? :(
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:07:16 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 12:36:22 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 12:27:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 10:35:03 AM
Gun laws and southern history seem to have a much greater explanatory value than "Poor guy had to go to school with the blacks".
Why do you so often feel the need to twist and misrepresent others' arguments here? I mean, I know it's Languish but come on.
Maybe you could take a shot at restating Yi's argument in a way that is more coherent.
I'll try. To me, it seems like Yi was initially making a side comment speculating that Roof might have been one of a handful of white kids in a mostly black school-- with the undertone that maybe had a hard time of it there and that might have contributed to his unfortunate hatred of blacks.
How does one get from being a minority in a school to killing the people who were the majority race in that school without the particular historical context of that place?
Berk: I tell everybody I know that the CSA is the moral equivalent of Nazi Germany. I want recognition. :P
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:08:34 PM
I think the pervasive racism that still exists, that drives to some extent the actions of otherwise marginally stable individuals, can and should be attacked. Culturally, politically, and legally. They all go together, and they all feed off of one another. We cannot ban being a racist, but we can stop providing racism political cover by tolerating hogwash like "Let's put the confederate battle flag all over the place and name streets after Confederate generals because ZOMG TEH CIVIL WAR WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY!". There are steps that we can take that are political, where those steps are possible and constitutional. There are steps we as a society can take culturally, that I think are already happening - people standing up and speaking against such things. We are seeing that happen right now, and even this thread is some tiny piece of that.
I don't think removing the Confederate battle flag from state property and renaming streets is going to do anything to stop people from being racist. What other suggestions do you have?
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:12:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:08:34 PM
I think the pervasive racism that still exists, that drives to some extent the actions of otherwise marginally stable individuals, can and should be attacked. Culturally, politically, and legally. They all go together, and they all feed off of one another. We cannot ban being a racist, but we can stop providing racism political cover by tolerating hogwash like "Let's put the confederate battle flag all over the place and name streets after Confederate generals because ZOMG TEH CIVIL WAR WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY!". There are steps that we can take that are political, where those steps are possible and constitutional. There are steps we as a society can take culturally, that I think are already happening - people standing up and speaking against such things. We are seeing that happen right now, and even this thread is some tiny piece of that.
I don't think removing the Confederate battle flag from state property and renaming streets is going to do anything to stop people from being racist. What other suggestions do you have?
At the very least stopping the positive reinforcement of racism is a start.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:10:05 PM
How does one get from being a minority in a school to killing the people who were the majority race in that school without the particular historical context of that place?
I don't get the question, sorry.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:12:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:08:34 PM
I think the pervasive racism that still exists, that drives to some extent the actions of otherwise marginally stable individuals, can and should be attacked. Culturally, politically, and legally. They all go together, and they all feed off of one another. We cannot ban being a racist, but we can stop providing racism political cover by tolerating hogwash like "Let's put the confederate battle flag all over the place and name streets after Confederate generals because ZOMG TEH CIVIL WAR WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY!". There are steps that we can take that are political, where those steps are possible and constitutional. There are steps we as a society can take culturally, that I think are already happening - people standing up and speaking against such things. We are seeing that happen right now, and even this thread is some tiny piece of that.
I don't think removing the Confederate battle flag from state property and renaming streets is going to do anything to stop people from being racist. What other suggestions do you have?
Well, you're wrong. It signals that the cultural victory of revanchist white racists is finally being rolled back, and that symbols of treason and slavery will at least no longer be endorsed by the state, and thereby are not endorsed by the sovereign, the people. It will nor solve race in America, but it will remove one brick from racism's foundation,
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:14:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:10:05 PM
How does one get from being a minority in a school to killing the people who were the majority race in that school without the particular historical context of that place?
I don't get the question, sorry.
You were trying to explain a position that I don't understand which is how the history of racism of that place doesn't play a role but instead the actions of the shooter can be explained by the shooter spending time in a predominately black school. It seems to me spending time in a black school only becomes relevant in a society that views the racial distinction as particularly relevant.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:13:40 PM
At the very least stopping the positive reinforcement of racism is a start.
Not sure I agree that it's a positive reinforcement of racism for most who like that flag, those generals, etc. But to play along, let's say it is. Then what?
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:21:04 PM
You were trying to explain a position that I don't understand which is how the history of racism of that place doesn't play a role but instead the actions of the shooter can be explained by the shooter spending time in a predominately black school. It seems to me spending time in a black school only becomes relevant in a society that views the racial distinction as particularly relevant.
I don't think Yi was just speculating he went to a majority black school. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was meaning to say Roof went to a majority black school and was picked on, or had some other negative experience in that school that warped his impression of black folks.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:21:10 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:13:40 PM
At the very least stopping the positive reinforcement of racism is a start.
Not sure I agree that it's a positive reinforcement of racism for most who like that flag, those generals, etc. But to play along, let's say it is. Then what?
I don't understand your question. If one accepts that the flag is a positive reinforcement of racist views what legitimate reason can there be for keeping it?
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:08:34 PM
The only dispute I would have is the tone (and maybe I am reading it wrong) that is basically, "Well, changing laws are hard, and don't even work perfectly, so that isn't a solution..."
Ah, well, that is the impression I give, on re-reading myself. Well, I just want to say it is hard and not 100% guarantee of anything.
Especially for guns since there's so many guns out there, it will take a century before seeing any effect.
Quote
To the extent that this man's actions are suscpetible to societal pressure, we can change our societies attitudes. It is entirely possible, even if it is not easy.
Well, tbh, the US did make some tremendous progress since the 60s.
But can societal attitudes change without laws to coherce people into it? It took a war to finally end slavery, and it took a law that forever altered the political landscape of the US to end segregation. Of course, the Democrats are already hated in the South, so they could pass new laws against racism. If only they have a super majority in Congress...
But locally, in each States, really, I don't know. I can't see the Federal outlawing Confederate Symbols or ciminalizing hate speech, so what do you have in mind, specifically? :)
Quote
Now, 30 year ago someone might say "You cannot just ban smoking! People love to smoke, and there is too much money in it, and it is an ingrained part of our culture. Trying to change it would be hopeless and pointless!" and that would be a pretty convincing argument.
Well, if I remember the debates on Languish, it's closer to 10 years ago, when you yourself might have been talking about nanny state :P
QuoteYet today, without ever banning smoking, nobody would even consider lighting a cig up in a car full of kids.
Still plenty of people do it, here, at least. The government talks every now and then about officially banning it.
QuoteThe rate of smoking is a fraction of what it used to be. Culturally, smoking is not see as cool, healthy, or something desirable in any way. We made legal changes (restricting where you can smoke in public), economic changes (taxing consumption at high rates) and cultural changes (less "hey this is cool" advertising, etc).
culture wise, I think there's been extensive lobby by non smoking group to pressure Hollywood into reducing the number of smokers on screen.
That part has already been done for black actors in lead role, for treating black actors fairly, for treating black characters fairly and representing slavey not as this cool institution that defined the way of the Ol' South were everyone was happy with their situation (12 years as a slave VS Gone with the Wind).
QuoteWe cannot ban being a racist, but we can stop providing racism political cover by tolerating hogwash like "Let's put the confederate battle flag all over the place and name streets after Confederate generals because ZOMG TEH CIVIL WAR WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY!". There are steps that we can take that are political, where those steps are possible and constitutional. There are steps we as a society can take culturally, that I think are already happening - people standing up and speaking against such things. We are seeing that happen right now, and even this thread is some tiny piece of that.
Standing up and speaking against it, I see it happening, but as for the rest, I do not know enough about what is constitutionnaly legal.
Quote
So I don't think we should not do anything because whatever we can do can't work on it's own. I think we should continue to do what we can to combat this kind of ignorance, even if the steps to do so are often small and seemingly ineffective.
I think the Democrat Party should be a lot more agressive in its speech, personally. Say, use the same tone the Republicans used to justify the war in Irak, i.e., "Defeatocrats" and stuff like that to fight racism and intolerance. Fight fire with fire.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:23:58 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:21:04 PM
You were trying to explain a position that I don't understand which is how the history of racism of that place doesn't play a role but instead the actions of the shooter can be explained by the shooter spending time in a predominately black school. It seems to me spending time in a black school only becomes relevant in a society that views the racial distinction as particularly relevant.
I don't think Yi was just speculating he went to a majority black school. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was meaning to say Roof went to a majority black school and was picked on, or had some other negative experience in that school that warped his impression of black folks.
Ok but again, being picked on by a black kid is only a meaningful description if the racial distinction is particularly relevant. There are a lot of other ways that hypothetical bully could be described: a kid in an older grade; a kid from a different economic background; a kid from a different social group in the school; or just the group of school thugs that bullied everyone; etc etc etc.
How one gets from being bullied by a kid from a particular racial group to wanting to kill others from that same racial group, its seems to me, is necessarily and by definition informed by a racist point of view.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:14:13 PM
I don't get the question, sorry.
the only way to connect the boyfriend in high school with the people in the church was if he was already racist.
Quote from: Ideologue on June 22, 2015, 01:09:53 PM
Vipe:Sure, we should have thought crime legislation, but not cameras, and I'm the extremist? :(
Cameras are evil. But necessary in many places. Just not with a radar, m'kay? ;)
Well, BB is the expert in Canadian law, but here's what I found on Wikipedia:
QuoteSections 318, 319, and 320 of the Code forbid hate propaganda.[4] "Hate propaganda" means "any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319."
[...]
In Canada (Human Rights Commission) v. Taylor, [1990] 3 S.C.R. 892 at 902, the Supreme Court said hate propaganda denotes any expression that is "intended or likely to circulate extreme feelings of opprobrium and enmity against a racial or religious group"
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:24:41 PM
I don't understand your question. If one accepts that the flag is a positive reinforcement of racist views what legitimate reason can there be for keeping it?
My question is where do you proceed from there? Okay, the flag is gone from state property in southern states and all streets named after Confederate generals have been renamed. Leaving aside the fact that the flag will still be fairly ubiquitous on private property, what's next?
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:31:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:24:41 PM
I don't understand your question. If one accepts that the flag is a positive reinforcement of racist views what legitimate reason can there be for keeping it?
My question is where do you proceed from there? Okay, the flag is gone from state property in southern states and all streets named after Confederate generals have been renamed. Leaving aside the fact that the flag will still be fairly ubiquitous on private property, what's next?
If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time. I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do. :P
Quote from: viper37 on June 22, 2015, 01:30:35 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on June 22, 2015, 01:09:53 PM
Vipe:Sure, we should have thought crime legislation, but not cameras, and I'm the extremist? :(
Cameras are evil. But necessary in many places. Just not with a radar, m'kay? ;)
Well, BB is the expert in Canadian law, but here's what I found on Wikipedia:
QuoteSections 318, 319, and 320 of the Code forbid hate propaganda.[4] "Hate propaganda" means "any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319."
[...]
In Canada (Human Rights Commission) v. Taylor, [1990] 3 S.C.R. 892 at 902, the Supreme Court said hate propaganda denotes any expression that is "intended or likely to circulate extreme feelings of opprobrium and enmity against a racial or religious group"
They're mixing up the Criminal Code charges with human rights commissions. Two separate legal processes.
Quote from: Ideologue on June 22, 2015, 01:18:39 PM
Well, you're wrong. It signals that the cultural victory of revanchist white racists is finally being rolled back, and that symbols of treason and slavery will at least no longer be endorsed by the state, and thereby are not endorsed by the sovereign, the people. It will nor solve race in America, but it will remove one brick from racism's foundation,
I appreciate your idealism but I don't see it as having the same effect you guys see.
And don't get me wrong, I despise the Confederate battle flag and would be all for having it banned from my state capitol if I were unfortunate enough to live in such a state.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:12:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:08:34 PM
I think the pervasive racism that still exists, that drives to some extent the actions of otherwise marginally stable individuals, can and should be attacked. Culturally, politically, and legally. They all go together, and they all feed off of one another. We cannot ban being a racist, but we can stop providing racism political cover by tolerating hogwash like "Let's put the confederate battle flag all over the place and name streets after Confederate generals because ZOMG TEH CIVIL WAR WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY!". There are steps that we can take that are political, where those steps are possible and constitutional. There are steps we as a society can take culturally, that I think are already happening - people standing up and speaking against such things. We are seeing that happen right now, and even this thread is some tiny piece of that.
I don't think removing the Confederate battle flag from state property and renaming streets is going to do anything to stop people from being racist. What other suggestions do you have?
I think you are wrong. And I think any possible other step I could contemplate will be dismissed out of hand just like this one was, and just like people once dismissed the silly notion that making black people drink from different fountains could reduce racism.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:34:27 PM
If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time. I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do. :P
I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:31:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:24:41 PM
I don't understand your question. If one accepts that the flag is a positive reinforcement of racist views what legitimate reason can there be for keeping it?
My question is where do you proceed from there? Okay, the flag is gone from state property in southern states and all streets named after Confederate generals have been renamed. Leaving aside the fact that the flag will still be fairly ubiquitous on private property, what's next?
I dunno - what do you think?
How about we address what we can now, see how that plays out, then proceed?
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:34:27 PM
If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time. I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do. :P
I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism.
I would like to hear your argument as to why you disagree.
And by the way, no take backs, you posed your question to me assuming it did. :P
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:38:03 PM
I think you are wrong.
You usually do :hug:
QuoteAnd I think any possible other step I could contemplate will be dismissed out of hand just like this one was,
Not at all, man. Go ahead. Let's talk it over. Together we can fix racism.
Quoteand just like people once dismissed the silly notion that making black people drink from different fountains could reduce racism.
Or sit at the back of the bus AMIRIGHT?
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:41:19 PM
How about we address what we can now, see how that plays out, then proceed?
Wouldn't bother me any, but it's not my call. I don't live in a state where that stupid flag flies on state property.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism.
It is an official expression of approval of, or identification with, a government founded on the principle of maintaining and protecting the institution of slavery.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:34:27 PM
If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time. I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do. :P
I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism.
The flag was proudly used as a symbol of the Lost Cause Redemption South that enforced Jim Crow, among other things, for over 100 years. They officially endorsed this flag as a symbol of the South's specific practices over and over again. If it is officially sanctioning racism it is only because it was officially used this way on a continual basis.
Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose. But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement. That legacy needs to be rejected by these state governments, and for the most part, it has been.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:42:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:38:03 PM
I think you are wrong.
You usually do :hug:
QuoteAnd I think any possible other step I could contemplate will be dismissed out of hand just like this one was,
Not at all, man. Go ahead. Let's talk it over. Together we can fix racism.
If you dismiss this out of hand, even though you claim that you actually would support it's removal, I can't imagine any suggestion that you would approve of...
It almost makes your claim you don't approve it look rather odd. You would support removing it, and yet you insist that it cannot make any difference and attack the suggestion that it be removed. Very weird.
Quote
Quoteand just like people once dismissed the silly notion that making black people drink from different fountains could reduce racism.
Or sit at the back of the bus AMIRIGHT?
Indeed.
Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2015, 01:53:44 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:34:27 PM
If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time. I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do. :P
I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism.
The flag was proudly used as a symbol of the Lost Cause Redemption South that enforced Jim Crow, among other things, for over 100 years. They officially endorsed this flag as a symbol of the South's specific practices over and over again. If it is officially sanctioning racism it is only because it was officially used this way on a continual basis.
Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose. But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement. That legacy needs to be rejected, and for the most part, it has been.
It is like someone going on about how a swastika can mean something other than Nazi's. Yeah, sure, it *can* in fact mean something else.
But we all know what it actually does mean.
Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2015, 01:53:44 PM
Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose. But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement.
See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection.
I'm with you guys in that I'd prefer the flag to be removed in state capitols where it flies, but I don't live there so I don't really get a vote either way.
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:56:02 PM
If you dismiss this out of hand, even though you claim that you actually would support it's removal, I can't imagine any suggestion that you would approve of...
Admit it, you just don't have anything. Pretend I'm not here and tell everyone else what ideas you have.
QuoteIt almost makes your claim you don't approve it look rather odd. You would support removing it, and yet you insist that it cannot make any difference and attack the suggestion that it be removed. Very weird.
I would support removing it because I don't like the symbol. I just don't think doing so would have any real impact.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 02:10:07 PM
See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection.
I'm with you guys in that I'd prefer the flag to be removed in state capitols where it flies, but I don't live there so I don't really get a vote either way.
In Texas this conversation is just never had and we have never gotten to vote on it. It would be very divisive and embarrassing so best to hope it goes away on its own and very quietly stop using it. The original Six Flags had a big 'Confederate' section that just kind of went away for example.
Now I cannot speak for the other former confederate states but this is my impression of how it goes over there as well. Granted some of the states had the misfortune to be stuck with St. Andrew's Cross flags on their state flags.
QuoteI would support removing it because I don't like the symbol. I just don't think doing so would have any real impact.
Well I disagree. When I was a kid the flag was all over the place. Now it is almost entirely gone. The impact seems very significant to me.
Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2015, 02:17:23 PM
Well I disagree. When I was a kid the flag was all over the place. Now it is almost entirely gone. The impact seems very significant to me.
Up in this area it seems fairly constant from what I saw as a kid. I've lived in or very close to a border state all my life and it seems like it's a symbol some are clinging to. I would have hoped it would die out in the border areas before anywhere else.
Most bizarre example I experienced was an ROTC buddy from Maryland who had significant Jewish (50%) and Filipino (25%) heritage but had the flag on a bumper sticker in his truck and loved him some country music. I guess the redneck gene won out somehow.
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 02:10:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2015, 01:53:44 PM
Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose. But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement.
See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection.
They may not. But that is the thing about symbols - they can have a significant impact on people whether they are consciously aware of the impact or not.
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:57:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2015, 01:53:44 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:34:27 PM
If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time. I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do. :P
I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism.
The flag was proudly used as a symbol of the Lost Cause Redemption South that enforced Jim Crow, among other things, for over 100 years. They officially endorsed this flag as a symbol of the South's specific practices over and over again. If it is officially sanctioning racism it is only because it was officially used this way on a continual basis.
Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose. But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement. That legacy needs to be rejected, and for the most part, it has been.
It is like someone going on about how a swastika can mean something other than Nazi's. Yeah, sure, it *can* in fact mean something else.
But we all know what it actually does mean.
Buddhism?
I see temples with it all the time.
Nikki Haley, with Graham and Scott by her side have called for the flag to be taken down! :o
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article25169761.html
Graham :bleeding:
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 06:27:30 PM
Graham :bleeding:
Now that is something we can agree on!
should a state remove an offensive flag from a capitol when the state did not intend for the flag to offend anyone? should an employer fire an employee over offensive comments when the employee did not intend for his comments to offend anyone? :hmm:
while i may not agree with ders here, i respect his consistency. :D
Quote
Jeb Bush Surprised How Easily Stance On Confederate Flag Set Him Apart From Other Republican Candidates
TALLAHASSEE, FL—Expressing satisfaction with the unexpected bump in his polling numbers, Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush confirmed Monday that he was astonished by how easily his stance on removing the Confederate flag from the South Carolina Capitol set him apart from the rest of the GOP field. "When I tweeted in support of taking down a widely recognized symbol of racism and white supremacy, I thought I'd fall pretty squarely in line with the other Republican candidates, but fortunately I was wrong," said Bush after competitors in the GOP primary race either refused to voice an opinion to avoid offending voters or suggested that the decision should fall to the state's lawmakers, establishing himself as the most sane member of the field "with pretty much zero effort." "All I had to do was offer a basic sentiment about how they should take down a flag widely considered to represent slavery and horrific racial oppression, and boom—suddenly I'm the only enlightened one in the group. I wish everything was this effortless." Bush reportedly expressed relief that he was able to stand out on the Confederate flag issue and wasn't forced to change his stance on climate change, abortion, taxes, immigration, the economy, foreign policy, budget spending, education reform, or national defense.
The Onion strikes again. They have gotten really, really good at this.
http://myfox8.com/2015/06/22/walmart-to-stop-selling-confederate-flag-merchandise/
QuoteWalmart to stop selling Confederate flag merchandise
POSTED 7:34 PM, JUNE 22, 2015, BY CNN WIRE
BENTONVILLE, Ark. — Walmart, the country's largest retailer, will remove all Confederate flag merchandise from its stores, the company said on Monday.
The announcement is the latest indication that the flag, a symbol of the slave-holding South, has become toxic in the aftermath of a shooting last week at a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina. Gov. Nikki Haley announced in a Monday afternoon news conference that she supports removing the Confederate flag from the state capitol grounds.
Walmart.com currently carries the Confederate flag as well as attire featuring the flag's design, such as T-shirts and belt buckles.
"We never want to offend anyone with the products that we offer. We have taken steps to remove all items promoting the confederate flag from our assortment — whether in our stores or on our web site," said Walmart spokesman Brian Nick. "We have a process in place to help lead us to the right decisions when it comes to the merchandise we sell. Still, at times, items make their way into our assortment improperly — this is one of those instances."
Walmart's statement came in response to a CNN inquiry Monday. In addition to Walmart, CNN asked Amazon and eBay whether they would remove Confederate flag merchandise from their sites. Neither company responded to repeated requests for comment.
The long-running debate over displaying the Confederate flag on government buildings took a swift turn after last week's massacre in Charleston, which left nine African-Americans dead in their church. The shooter, 21-year-old Dylann Roof, has confessed to the murders and has said he wanted to instigate a "race war."
One widely circulated photo of the shooter holding a gun and a Confederate flag has stirred intense outrage. Critics of the flag quickly called on South Carolina to take down what is widely viewed as a symbol of racism.
Amazon.com lists pages of Confederate flag-related merchandise, ranging from the flag itself to folding knives, T-shirts, blankets and even shower curtains.
eBay also carries the Confederate flag and accessories such as handbags and jewelry. The online auction site's "offensive material policy" bans the sale of items that "promote hatred or racial supremacy including historic and current items."
Haley on Monday declared it was time to remove the flag from the capitol grounds.
"This flag, while an integral part of our past, does not represent the future of our great state," the second-term governor said, in an announcement that drew thunderous applause and cheers.
Haley was surrounded by many of the state's elected officials, including Republican Sens. Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott, Democratic Rep. Jim Clyburn and Republican Rep. Mark Sanford.
Many of the 2016 GOP presidential candidates and likely candidates — including former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, former Texas Gov. Rick Perry and Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker — voiced their support for Haley's decision following her speech.
I just noticed the bolded line. :D
Quote from: LaCroix on June 22, 2015, 06:34:08 PM
should a state remove an offensive flag from a capitol when the state did not intend for the flag to offend anyone?
Pretty sure when they raised this flag in Charleston Harbor they intended to offend somebody :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eccentricbliss.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F09%2FCWC-Ft-Sumter-Stainless-Banner-500-PIXELS.jpg&hash=51bb4dbf45720916fb5a67a8b0fdd5aabbe4d5e9)
Note: May be a romanticized painting and may never have happened.
i assume south carolina took down the reb flag after the war and reintroduced it some years later. :P
Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2015, 02:17:23 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 02:10:07 PM
See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection.
I'm with you guys in that I'd prefer the flag to be removed in state capitols where it flies, but I don't live there so I don't really get a vote either way.
In Texas this conversation is just never had and we have never gotten to vote on it. It would be very divisive and embarrassing so best to hope it goes away on its own and very quietly stop using it. The original Six Flags had a big 'Confederate' section that just kind of went away for example.
Now I cannot speak for the other former confederate states but this is my impression of how it goes over there as well. Granted some of the states had the misfortune to be stuck with St. Andrew's Cross flags on their state flags.
QuoteI would support removing it because I don't like the symbol. I just don't think doing so would have any real impact.
Well I disagree. When I was a kid the flag was all over the place. Now it is almost entirely gone. The impact seems very significant to me.
The perception of the flag has totally changed. When I was a kid it was everywhere. I'm sure people in the North and maybe parts of minority groups associated it with racism, but I don't think many people did. Going through a old high school yearbook, there was a picture of several black students playing cards with a confederate themed deck. No one thought anything of it.
That has totally stopped. A guy walked into my gym with a confederate flag shirt and I was like, "whoa, wtf" but 20 years ago no one would have batted an eye.
Quote from: Berkut on June 22, 2015, 01:57:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2015, 01:53:44 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 22, 2015, 01:34:27 PM
If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time. I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do. :P
I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism.
The flag was proudly used as a symbol of the Lost Cause Redemption South that enforced Jim Crow, among other things, for over 100 years. They officially endorsed this flag as a symbol of the South's specific practices over and over again. If it is officially sanctioning racism it is only because it was officially used this way on a continual basis.
Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose. But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement. That legacy needs to be rejected, and for the most part, it has been.
It is like someone going on about how a swastika can mean something other than Nazi's. Yeah, sure, it *can* in fact mean something else.
But we all know what it actually does mean.
Finnish armed forces?
In Sweden the flag is used by some rural folk who drive 1950/60s American cars.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 22, 2015, 10:34:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 22, 2015, 02:17:23 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2015, 02:10:07 PM
See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection.
I'm with you guys in that I'd prefer the flag to be removed in state capitols where it flies, but I don't live there so I don't really get a vote either way.
In Texas this conversation is just never had and we have never gotten to vote on it. It would be very divisive and embarrassing so best to hope it goes away on its own and very quietly stop using it. The original Six Flags had a big 'Confederate' section that just kind of went away for example.
Now I cannot speak for the other former confederate states but this is my impression of how it goes over there as well. Granted some of the states had the misfortune to be stuck with St. Andrew's Cross flags on their state flags.
QuoteI would support removing it because I don't like the symbol. I just don't think doing so would have any real impact.
Well I disagree. When I was a kid the flag was all over the place. Now it is almost entirely gone. The impact seems very significant to me.
The perception of the flag has totally changed. When I was a kid it was everywhere. I'm sure people in the North and maybe parts of minority groups associated it with racism, but I don't think many people did. Going through a old high school yearbook, there was a picture of several black students playing cards with a confederate themed deck. No one thought anything of it.
That has totally stopped. A guy walked into my gym with a confederate flag shirt and I was like, "whoa, wtf" but 20 years ago no one would have batted an eye.
What do you attribute the change to?
Also, to all you other Southern folks on Languish, do you think Dorsey's anecdote is representative?
Well, there was this popular TV show ...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm2.staticflickr.com%2F1138%2F1372549785_7dbab90aa3.jpg&hash=a3563606987f0063902e2ee3254899f768c98f4d)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 23, 2015, 04:07:15 AM
What do you attribute the change to?
Also, to all you other Southern folks on Languish, do you think Dorsey's anecdote is representative?
Yes. Again it was everywhere before.
I think a huge factor has been the GI generation dying off. They were the ones whose Grandfathers were all Confederate vets. Back when they were still alive we couldn't be too mean about the Confederacy.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 08:03:36 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 23, 2015, 04:07:15 AM
What do you attribute the change to?
Also, to all you other Southern folks on Languish, do you think Dorsey's anecdote is representative?
Yes. Again it was everywhere before.
The assumption here seems to be that since it was much more prevalent it wasn't really about racism.
There was something else much more prevalent in the South at that time as well - segregation.
I suggest that it being more prevalent is not evidence that the flag is not about racism, but rather exactly the opposite.
I guess I won't be buying my confederate themed party supplies at Wally World anymore.
In the 1980s? We still had school busing back then. I actually think segregation is more of a thing today than it was then.
QuoteI suggest that it being more prevalent is not evidence that the flag is not about racism, but rather exactly the opposite.
I don't think its prevalence means it wasn't about racism. I don't think we were suggesting that. It was prevalent because it always had been and it slowly and quietly went away. You can see why those carrying a flame for the flag are now starting to get more shrill. As far as I am concerned the only place I ever want to see a St. Andrew's cross Confederate Flag again is in a museum with other old relics.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 23, 2015, 08:51:35 AM
I guess I won't be buying my confederate themed party supplies at Wally World anymore.
General Lee's birthday just won't be the same. :(
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 23, 2015, 08:51:35 AM
I guess I won't be buying my confederate themed party supplies at Wally World anymore.
General Lee's birthday just won't be the same. :(
Fucking penis haircut guy ruined it for all of us. :mad:
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 08:53:40 AM
In the 1980s? We still had school busing back then. I actually think segregation is more of a thing today than it was then.
QuoteI suggest that it being more prevalent is not evidence that the flag is not about racism, but rather exactly the opposite.
I don't think its prevalence means it wasn't about racism. I don't think we were suggesting that. It was prevalent because it always had been and it slowly and quietly went away. You can see why those carrying a flame for the flag are now starting to get more shrill. As far as I am concerned the only place I ever want to see a St. Andrew's cross Confederate Flag again is in a museum with other old relics.
Gotcha, and agree.
I think we see it a lot less because in fact the south has made impressive cultural strides in their refusal to tolerate racism.
It is just one of those remaining stubborn pieces that need to be cleaned up. Kind of sad that it took something like this to make it happen.
Quote from: Berkut on June 23, 2015, 08:48:05 AM
The assumption here seems to be that since it was much more prevalent it wasn't really about racism.
There was something else much more prevalent in the South at that time as well - segregation.
I suggest that it being more prevalent is not evidence that the flag is not about racism, but rather exactly the opposite.
"What the flag is about", like with any flag, is very much in the eye of the beholder. Some people see the US flag as representative of slavery, Native American genocide, and imperialism. Some don't.
Clearly racist groups have always used the confederate flag in a racist context. But at the same time it has also been used as a symbol of regional pride and heritage not unlike a scottish or welsh flag. Saying the purpose of the ubiquity of the flag in the 80s and 90s was all about expressing racism is rather stupid. I know my grandfather--who was very much opposed to segregation--would have been bewildered by attempts to take down the flag and considered it to be something borderline treasonous.
'Heritage not hate' was the apologist slogan I saw alot in the 90s.
Best to just find something else to represent Southern pride. Like SEC football or something. No racism there.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 09:09:43 AM
'Heritage not hate' was the apologist slogan I saw alot in the 90s.
Best to just find something else to represent Southern pride. Like SEC football or something. No racism there.
Harvey Updyke for Confederate President.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 23, 2015, 09:12:22 AM
Harvey Updyke for Confederate President.
That would start another Civil War! In Alabama.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 09:14:01 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 23, 2015, 09:12:22 AM
Harvey Updyke for Confederate President.
That would start another Civil War! In Alabama.
Roll. Damn. Tide.
Lusti would seize Mobile aboard his flagship 'Bo Jackson'
I still don't see why they won't switch gears and use the actual Stars & Bars or Bonnie Blue flag. People who are offended by the battle flag would have no clue what they mean.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 23, 2015, 04:07:15 AM
What do you attribute the change to?
Good manners and a desire not to offend.
There isn't a really good reason to fly the flag, and when some people think you are racist for doing so, then maybe you shouldn't from a practical point of view?
Its one of those things that when the flag is ubiquitous, it is one thing, but even for people that cheer on the confederacy in civil war movies, you have to wonder about the one guy wearing a confederate t shirt with a couple bumper stickers and if he is in the kkk or something.
QuoteI still don't see why they won't switch gears and use the actual Stars & Bars or Bonnie Blue flag. People who are offended by the battle flag would have no clue what they mean.
Even if they did the Stars and Bars was never used by the KKK and the segregationalists.
That is what we do in Texas with the 'Six Flags'
There is a giant Confederate Flag waiving outside the Texas State History Museum right outside my office.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.structuretone.com%2FST%2Findex.nsf%2FvFiles%2FMuseumExt-H-Full.jpg%2F%24FILE%2FMuseumExt-H-Full.jpg&hash=cbc9be871ee73b0711ff36ec544320d7cd3ba82b)
Being a nerd I get far more annoyed at the flag of Castile-Leon being used instead of the Spanish Bourbons flag or the Burgundian Cross of the Habsburgs. I mean geez the Spanish did not settle in Texas until centuries after Columbus.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2015, 09:19:25 AM
I still don't see why they won't switch gears and use the actual Stars & Bars or Bonnie Blue flag. People who are offended by the battle flag would have no clue what they mean.
That was the compromise in Georgia, when the state dropped the battle flag as the state flag.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2015, 09:26:49 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2015, 09:19:25 AM
I still don't see why they won't switch gears and use the actual Stars & Bars or Bonnie Blue flag. People who are offended by the battle flag would have no clue what they mean.
That was the compromise in Georgia, when the state dropped the battle flag as the state flag.
So glad they did that. That was embarrassing. Even in 1991 I thought it was funny Clarence Thomas had a big Confederate Battle Flag on the wall of his office.
You know, now that I think about it, like Dorsey mentioned I don't see those battle flags around very much anymore either. :hmm: I can't even remember when I last saw a sticker of the thing on the back of a vehicle. I almost wish the shitheads would go back to the racist flags and get rid of the dumbass "truck nuts" though like I saw this morning on the way to work. I still don't understand why a person would want a nutsack hanging off their truck like that.
E: To be fair, I'm not really looking out for Confederate flags, so I may just be missing them.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 23, 2015, 09:56:57 AM
You know, now that I think about it, like Dorsey mentioned I don't see those battle flags around very much anymore either. :hmm: I can't even remember when I last saw a sticker of the thing on the back of a vehicle. I almost wish the shitheads would go back to the racist flags and get rid of the dumbass "truck balls" though. I still don't understand why a person would want a nutsack hanging off their truck like that.
What I see a ton of these days is the Gonzales flag being used by gun nuts.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Gonzales_Flag.JPG)
Except now like this:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.bigcommerce.com%2Fserver1200%2F2m3qch%2Fproducts%2F123%2Fimages%2F339%2FFlagComeTakeItRifle__54187.1408256130.1280.1280.gif%3Fc%3D2&hash=7d5fd3a7f1cd133206163de721c52bee6e9db9b9)
Charming. Obama best beware.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2015, 09:05:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 23, 2015, 08:48:05 AM
The assumption here seems to be that since it was much more prevalent it wasn't really about racism.
There was something else much more prevalent in the South at that time as well - segregation.
I suggest that it being more prevalent is not evidence that the flag is not about racism, but rather exactly the opposite.
"What the flag is about", like with any flag, is very much in the eye of the beholder.
Of course. And a lot of the people beholding the confederate flag consider it be about racism.
Enough that it's utility outside that context is rather suspect.
I know that kind of sucks, just like for people who think Swastika's are all about buddha. Sorry.
The problem is that those who think it is very much about racism and want it to be about that, are happy to make the exact same argument you are to justify it.
And those who think it is about racism from the standpoint of the target of that racism deserve to have their feelings considered. And given the hsiotry there, I think their views ought to trump those who think it is all about their legitimate southern heritage when it comes to state sponsored displays of a symbol that is routinely associated with slavery and racism.
If there was an argument between Germans and Jews about what the Nazi flag really represents, I think the Jews should get the final word when it comes to how the state should view it.
Quote
Some people see the US flag as representative of slavery, Native American genocide, and imperialism. Some don't.
Not enough people consider it such to make it an issue though.
Quote
Clearly racist groups have always used the confederate flag in a racist context. But at the same time it has also been used as a symbol of regional pride and heritage not unlike a scottish or welsh flag.
If Scotland or Wales had a unique history of slavery and racism and a particular flag the represented that part of their history uniquely, I think a legitimate argument could and would be made that some other choice ought to be considered when it is time to recognize that part of their history that is not about slavery and racism.
Only those concerned with sheep rights would be offended by the flag of Wales.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 10:00:14 AM
Except now like this:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.bigcommerce.com%2Fserver1200%2F2m3qch%2Fproducts%2F123%2Fimages%2F339%2FFlagComeTakeItRifle__54187.1408256130.1280.1280.gif%3Fc%3D2&hash=7d5fd3a7f1cd133206163de721c52bee6e9db9b9)
Charming. Obama best beware.
Oh yeah, I've seen those. :rolleyes: So lame.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 23, 2015, 09:56:57 AM
I almost wish the shitheads would go back to the racist flags and get rid of the dumbass "truck nuts" though like I saw this morning on the way to work. I still don't understand why a person would want a nutsack hanging off their truck like that.
Yep.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 09:19:04 AM
Lusti would seize Mobile aboard his flagship 'Bo Jackson'
I would. But first I will partially park my FJ on the hood of a certain black Challenger.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2015, 09:19:25 AM
I still don't see why they won't switch gears and use the actual Stars & Bars or Bonnie Blue flag. People who are offended by the battle flag would have no clue what they mean.
:lol:
Why is that funny? :hmm:
The former particularly is well-known as a symbol of the CSA.
Admittedly, the Bonnie blue would be easily mistaken as a Somali flag.
Quote from: Ideologue on June 23, 2015, 03:50:59 PM
The former particularly is well-known as a symbol of the CSA.
Well-known to you and most of us. But I doubt it's that well-known to most other people.
Accepting that as true, even then I suspect it'd become well-known soon enough.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 03:45:47 PM
Why is that funny? :hmm:
Cause, you know, black people aren't that bright.
Quote from: Ideologue on June 23, 2015, 04:02:01 PM
Accepting that as true, even then I suspect it'd become well-known soon enough.
Not sure about that. I mean, they were able to slide in a slightly modified version of the Stars & Bars as the new Georgia state flag. I haven't heard any objections to that.
Quote from: Berkut on June 23, 2015, 10:02:17 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2015, 09:05:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 23, 2015, 08:48:05 AM
The assumption here seems to be that since it was much more prevalent it wasn't really about racism.
There was something else much more prevalent in the South at that time as well - segregation.
I suggest that it being more prevalent is not evidence that the flag is not about racism, but rather exactly the opposite.
"What the flag is about", like with any flag, is very much in the eye of the beholder.
Of course. And a lot of the people beholding the confederate flag consider it be about racism.
Enough that it's utility outside that context is rather suspect.
I know that kind of sucks, just like for people who think Swastika's are all about buddha. Sorry.
The problem is that those who think it is very much about racism and want it to be about that, are happy to make the exact same argument you are to justify it.
And those who think it is about racism from the standpoint of the target of that racism deserve to have their feelings considered. And given the hsiotry there, I think their views ought to trump those who think it is all about their legitimate southern heritage when it comes to state sponsored displays of a symbol that is routinely associated with slavery and racism.
If there was an argument between Germans and Jews about what the Nazi flag really represents, I think the Jews should get the final word when it comes to how the state should view it.
Quote
Some people see the US flag as representative of slavery, Native American genocide, and imperialism. Some don't.
Not enough people consider it such to make it an issue though.
Quote
Clearly racist groups have always used the confederate flag in a racist context. But at the same time it has also been used as a symbol of regional pride and heritage not unlike a scottish or welsh flag.
If Scotland or Wales had a unique history of slavery and racism and a particular flag the represented that part of their history uniquely, I think a legitimate argument could and would be made that some other choice ought to be considered when it is time to recognize that part of their history that is not about slavery and racism.
Reminds me of the folks living in Swastika, Ontario (named in 1908). They have resisted all efforts to change the name of their town.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika,_Ontario
Allegedly, the inhabitants sold match-boxes with the name of their town on it, and the slogan "To Hell With Hitler, We Had It First!" :lol:
Difference being, I think, that no-one thinks any of 'em are secretly Nazi sympathizers - unlike confederate flag-users, at least some of whom are clearly racists.
Quote from: lustindarkness on June 23, 2015, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 09:19:04 AM
Lusti would seize Mobile aboard his flagship 'Bo Jackson'
I would. But first I will partially park my FJ on the hood of a certain black Challenger.
MAH HEMI
Social media does something good? :hmm:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/a-view-from-charleston
QuoteByJosh MarshallPublishedJune 24, 2015, 11:17 AM EDT 11311 views
TPM Reader CS gives us a view from Charleston and why he thinks the damn broke on the preservation of Confederate symbols. I'm particularly interested in the second catalyst he notes ...
As a Charleston resident, I've noticed that there seem to be two main catalysts driving the removal of the flag—at least here in South Carolina.
First and foremost, a member of the South Carolina Senate was murdered. Not just any member, but a very highly respected and very well liked member. I have been pleasantly surprised by the number of Republican Senators who have come forward to release very personal statements about Sen. Pinckney's death, especially among the Lowcountry delegation. The statements made about him strike me as more than just the generic nice things one is supposed to say.
Secondly, I credit social media. Within a few days, nearly everyone began to associate the Confederate flag with the images of Dylann Roof either waving it or posing with it on his car's license plate. It created enough pressure to make Nikki Haley and Lindsey Graham both change their minds and call for the flag to come down. I also think that the SC Republicans are savvy enough to not want to be responsible for having every single GOP candidate forced to go on record about their respective positions on the flag. They know that's very much a no-win situation for the party.
(Slight digression - Tim Scott was initially going to wait until after the funerals to release his statement. That makes me think he was originally going to support keeping it where it is. Incidentally, his nickname by many African-Americans in this state is "Uncle Tim.")
But perhaps the most ironic and gratifying takeaway from this tragic situation is that Dylan Roof is pretty much singlehandedly responsible for the fall of the Confederate Flag.
Quote from: Ideologue on June 23, 2015, 03:50:59 PM
The former particularly is well-known as a symbol of the CSA.
An archaic old symbol. A historical artifact. Not something co-opted by the redemption segregation state governments and the KKK.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 23, 2015, 04:09:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 03:45:47 PM
Why is that funny? :hmm:
Cause, you know, black people aren't that bright.
Well that's an opinion but I don't think that is what Ide was getting at.
Quote from: Valmy on June 24, 2015, 11:20:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 23, 2015, 04:09:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 03:45:47 PM
Why is that funny? :hmm:
Cause, you know, black people aren't that bright.
Well that's an opinion but I don't think that is what Ide was getting at.
Not Ide...
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2015, 11:02:58 PM
Social media does something good? :hmm:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/a-view-from-charleston (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/a-view-from-charleston)
QuoteByJosh MarshallPublishedJune 24, 2015, 11:17 AM EDT 11311 views
TPM Reader CS gives us a view from Charleston and why he thinks the damn broke on the preservation of Confederate symbols. I'm particularly interested in the second catalyst he notes ...
As a Charleston resident, I've noticed that there seem to be two main catalysts driving the removal of the flag—at least here in South Carolina.
First and foremost, a member of the South Carolina Senate was murdered. Not just any member, but a very highly respected and very well liked member. I have been pleasantly surprised by the number of Republican Senators who have come forward to release very personal statements about Sen. Pinckney's death, especially among the Lowcountry delegation. The statements made about him strike me as more than just the generic nice things one is supposed to say.
Secondly, I credit social media. Within a few days, nearly everyone began to associate the Confederate flag with the images of Dylann Roof either waving it or posing with it on his car's license plate. It created enough pressure to make Nikki Haley and Lindsey Graham both change their minds and call for the flag to come down. I also think that the SC Republicans are savvy enough to not want to be responsible for having every single GOP candidate forced to go on record about their respective positions on the flag. They know that's very much a no-win situation for the party.
(Slight digression - Tim Scott was initially going to wait until after the funerals to release his statement. That makes me think he was originally going to support keeping it where it is. Incidentally, his nickname by many African-Americans in this state is "Uncle Tim.")
But perhaps the most ironic and gratifying takeaway from this tragic situation is that Dylan Roof is pretty much singlehandedly responsible for the fall of the Confederate Flag.
If I was a cynical person I would suggest that quite a few conservatives want to get ahead of this and create as much distance as possible between what is apolitically motivated assassination and certain sentiments and organizations that the attacker claims inspired him and have given money to high ranking conservative leaders in the past. Such a cynical person wouldn't be surprised if people who privately shared some of these sentiments, such as about the Trayvon Martin case, might suggest that the motives for this attack were more personal then political.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 12:35:46 AM
Not Ide...
Do you honestly think that is what I was getting at? Don't be that way, man.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2015, 04:22:40 PM
Reminds me of the folks living in Swastika, Ontario (named in 1908). They have resisted all efforts to change the name of their town.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika,_Ontario
Allegedly, the inhabitants sold match-boxes with the name of their town on it, and the slogan "To Hell With Hitler, We Had It First!" :lol:
Difference being, I think, that no-one thinks any of 'em are secretly Nazi sympathizers - unlike confederate flag-users, at least some of whom are clearly racists.
We've had a similar debate that no politician wants to touch.
In Gatineau (right in front of Ottawa), there are two streets named for Nazi sympathizers&collaborators who each won a Noble Prize in their science. They went to a referendum and the people who wanted the name change lost.
Streets Philipp-Lenard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Lenard) and Alexis-Carrel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Carrel)
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 08:42:55 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 12:35:46 AM
Not Ide...
Do you honestly think that is what I was getting at? Don't be that way, man.
Honestly? No. Despite what Seedy said, I wouldn't have identified you as racist. It did look bad though.
Well I think that is a little different. That would be like removing the name of any Confederate or Confederate sympathizer from any street or building in South Carolina which would basically mean removing 90% of names from everything. Besides those guys are being honored for things unrelated to their political activities.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 08:52:31 AM
Honestly? No. Despite what Seedy said, I wouldn't have identified you as racist. It did look bad though.
I didn't think he meant black people specifically. But everybody who is not a history nerd. Being a history nerd I have no idea the percentage of people who would identify the Stars and Bars as a Confederate Flag.
Quote from: viper37 on June 25, 2015, 08:47:14 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2015, 04:22:40 PM
Reminds me of the folks living in Swastika, Ontario (named in 1908). They have resisted all efforts to change the name of their town.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika,_Ontario
Allegedly, the inhabitants sold match-boxes with the name of their town on it, and the slogan "To Hell With Hitler, We Had It First!" :lol:
Difference being, I think, that no-one thinks any of 'em are secretly Nazi sympathizers - unlike confederate flag-users, at least some of whom are clearly racists.
We've had a similar debate that no politician wants to touch.
In Gatineau (right in front of Ottawa), there are two streets named for Nazi sympathizers&collaborators who each won a Noble Prize in their science. They went to a referendum and the people who wanted the name change lost.
Streets Philipp-Lenard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Lenard) and Alexis-Carrel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Carrel)
Well, for the street names, I'm guessing that not one in a thousand people would know who these guys were or that they were Nazis or collaborators. ;) With "Swastika", it's a bit more in-your-face.
Also, my understanding that they were simply part of a large number of streets named after Nobel winners - part of a set as it were.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 08:52:31 AM
Honestly? No. Despite what Seedy said, I wouldn't have identified you as racist. It did look bad though.
So you felt compelled to make a cheap shot racism accusation. Nice.
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 09:09:00 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 08:52:31 AM
Honestly? No. Despite what Seedy said, I wouldn't have identified you as racist. It did look bad though.
So you felt compelled to make a cheap shot racism accusation. Nice.
You take cheap shots like a miserly bar fly.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 09:10:09 AM
You take cheap shots like a miserly bar fly.
Cute. But I can't recall the last time I took a cheap shot on anyone here.
Fine. I apologize.
Apple is removing Civil War games from the app store because of the confederate flag.
http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/
That was probably a mistake.
It amazes me that anyone thinks this knee-jerk shit will somehow stop racism. It's probably only going to make it worse actually.
No more General Lee toys either: http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/23/8836571/dukes-of-hazzard-car-toys-confederate-flag
Quote from: Caliga on June 25, 2015, 09:34:19 AM
It amazes me that anyone thinks this knee-jerk shit will somehow stop racism. It's probably only going to make it worse actually.
I am amazed you think people think they are stopping racism. This is about covering your ass so you don't look racist.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 25, 2015, 09:25:18 AM
Apple is removing Civil War games from the app store because of the confederate flag.
http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/
:thumbsdown:
It really baffles me why this awful incident has turned into a backlash against the Confederate battle flag. I mean hell - the shooter seemed more entranced with South Africa and Rhodesia than with the CSA.
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 09:48:50 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 25, 2015, 09:25:18 AM
Apple is removing Civil War games from the app store because of the confederate flag.
http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/
:thumbsdown:
It really baffles me why this awful incident has turned into a backlash against the Confederate battle flag. I mean hell - the shooter seemed more entranced with South Africa and Rhodesia than with the CSA.
You don't see a link?
This is getting weird.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 25, 2015, 09:49:31 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 09:48:50 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 25, 2015, 09:25:18 AM
Apple is removing Civil War games from the app store because of the confederate flag.
http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/
:thumbsdown:
It really baffles me why this awful incident has turned into a backlash against the Confederate battle flag. I mean hell - the shooter seemed more entranced with South Africa and Rhodesia than with the CSA.
You don't see a link?
Pretty tenuous one. You'd think talking about gun control would be a more obvious public discussion to have.
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 09:37:42 AM
Quote from: Caliga on June 25, 2015, 09:34:19 AM
It amazes me that anyone thinks this knee-jerk shit will somehow stop racism. It's probably only going to make it worse actually.
I am amazed you think people think they are stopping racism. This is about covering your ass so you don't look racist.
Yep, this thing is snowballing and nobody wants to be the target of two minutes hate from bloggers, twitter users, etc.
Not to anyone in particular, but I don't understand the argument that flying the flag is a celebration of the south's "heritage" or any such thing. Presumably you fly the flag because you think there's something worthy in the cause it represents, and I don't see anything that the Confederate flag represents other than racism, treason, and terrorism. That said, removing Civil Wars games and the like from the Apple store is 100% retarded.
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 25, 2015, 09:49:31 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 09:48:50 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 25, 2015, 09:25:18 AM
Apple is removing Civil War games from the app store because of the confederate flag.
http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/
:thumbsdown:
It really baffles me why this awful incident has turned into a backlash against the Confederate battle flag. I mean hell - the shooter seemed more entranced with South Africa and Rhodesia than with the CSA.
You don't see a link?
Pretty tenuous one. You'd think talking about gun control would be a more obvious public discussion to have.
It happened in South Carolina. South Carolina happens to fly the Confederate flag on state capitol grounds. Never let a tragedy/crisis/whatever go to waste, I suppose.
Had it happened in Ohio or Michigan there would be no opportunity to go after that flag, so the focus would probably be on guns.
Quote from: Kleves on June 25, 2015, 09:53:29 AM
Not to anyone in particular, but I don't understand the argument that flying the flag is a celebration of the south's "heritage" or any such thing. Presumably you fly the flag because you think there's something worthy in the cause it represents, and I don't see anything that the Confederate flag represents other than racism, treason, and terrorism.
I think you, like most others here, are over-thinking it. For most people who display the flag in some way, shape, or form I think they're just saying "hey, look at me-- I'm from the South".
edit: For Cooter, it stands for "Courage and Family and Good Times" :lol:
http://www.people.com/article/dukes-hazzard-actor-defends-confederate-flag-ben-jones
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 09:51:05 AM
Pretty tenuous one. You'd think talking about gun control would be a more obvious public discussion to have.
The flag was used as a symbol of segregation and white supremacy after the war so that is the link.
The gun control discussion? Racism kills people not guns.
An illustrative cartoon
I don't see what gun regulations, short of banning them outright, would have prevented this incident. The perp had no felony convictions and no history of mental issues.
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 09:56:34 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 25, 2015, 09:49:31 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 09:48:50 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 25, 2015, 09:25:18 AM
Apple is removing Civil War games from the app store because of the confederate flag.
http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/
:thumbsdown:
It really baffles me why this awful incident has turned into a backlash against the Confederate battle flag. I mean hell - the shooter seemed more entranced with South Africa and Rhodesia than with the CSA.
You don't see a link?
Pretty tenuous one. You'd think talking about gun control would be a more obvious public discussion to have.
It happened in South Carolina. South Carolina happens to fly the Confederate flag on state capitol grounds. Never let a tragedy/crisis/whatever go to waste, I suppose.
Had it happened in Ohio or Michigan there would be no opportunity to go after that flag, so the focus would probably be on guns.
One would have to have no knowledge of the history of that State to make the argument that the only connection is that some black people just happened to be shot by a racist in a State that by some wild coincidence prominently displayed a Confederate flag.
It didn't help that the killer posed with the flag quite a bit.
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 09:58:54 AM
The gun control discussion? Racism kills people not guns.
How about both get people killed? :hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2015, 10:08:12 AM
I don't see what gun regulations, short of banning them outright, would have prevented this incident. The perp had no felony convictions and no history of mental issues.
Well Canadian gun regulations would probably have prevented this incident. A .45 pistol is a restricted firearm - he'd be required to take several courses before being allowed to purchase one.
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 11:27:53 AM
Well Canadian gun regulations would probably have prevented this incident. A .45 pistol is a restricted firearm - he'd be required to take several courses before being allowed to purchase one.
Are you saying he would have been deterred by the inconvenience of the classes, or that the classes themselves would have taught him not to be a mass murderer?
I thought they mostly taught stuff like safety on, leave it unloaded, etc.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 11:27:53 AM
Well Canadian gun regulations would probably have prevented this incident. A .45 pistol is a restricted firearm - he'd be required to take several courses before being allowed to purchase one.
Are you saying he would have been deterred by the inconvenience of the classes, or that the classes themselves would have taught him not to be a mass murderer?
I thought they mostly taught stuff like safety on, leave it unloaded, etc.
At the very least he would not have been given the weapon as a birthday gift
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 11:27:53 AM
Well Canadian gun regulations would probably have prevented this incident. A .45 pistol is a restricted firearm - he'd be required to take several courses before being allowed to purchase one.
Are you saying he would have been deterred by the inconvenience of the classes, or that the classes themselves would have taught him not to be a mass murderer?
I thought they mostly taught stuff like safety on, leave it unloaded, etc.
In order to get a restricted firearms Possession and Aquisition License, he would be required to demonstrate that he practices or shoots at a registered shooting range or club. It would take a considerable amount of time and effort before he could obtain a pistol.
No, it's not guaranteed to prevent a mass shooting, but Roof didn't seem like a fellow with a whole lot of dedication.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 25, 2015, 11:38:50 AM
At the very least he would not have been given the weapon as a birthday gift
He was given the money as the birthday gift.
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 09:58:24 AM
Quote from: Kleves on June 25, 2015, 09:53:29 AM
Not to anyone in particular, but I don't understand the argument that flying the flag is a celebration of the south's "heritage" or any such thing. Presumably you fly the flag because you think there's something worthy in the cause it represents, and I don't see anything that the Confederate flag represents other than racism, treason, and terrorism.
I think you, like most others here, are over-thinking it. For most people who display the flag in some way, shape, or form I think they're just saying "hey, look at me-- I'm from the South".
edit: For Cooter, it stands for "Courage and Family and Good Times" :lol:
http://www.people.com/article/dukes-hazzard-actor-defends-confederate-flag-ben-jones
When I was a kid, I used to have a framed poster of a van with a huge Confederate flag in front of it. It looked cool. Only much later did I realized what it stood for. My father bought it to me, I guess, because he was such of huge fan of all thing mechanized (a trait I do not share, much to his regret). He too never tought of the symbol.
I wonder if you can buy that Novorossiya flag at places that banned the confederate flag.
edit: looks like you can, at least stickers http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=novorossiya&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Anovorossiya
The Confederate battle flag is obviously gone and it looks like the Stars & Bars is also gone. But you can still get the Bonnie Blue Flag.
Quote from: garbon on June 25, 2015, 10:20:17 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 09:58:54 AM
The gun control discussion? Racism kills people not guns.
How about both get people killed? :hmm:
Madness.
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 01:02:06 PM
I wonder if you can buy that Novorossiya flag at places that banned the confederate flag.
Did a Novorossiya guy do something to get in the news recently that would make that place look bad?
I'm glad I'm missing the TV coverage back home.
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 01:05:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 01:02:06 PM
I wonder if you can buy that Novorossiya flag at places that banned the confederate flag.
Did a Novorossiya guy do something to get in the news recently that would make that place look bad?
Not sure if serious.
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 01:11:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 01:05:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 01:02:06 PM
I wonder if you can buy that Novorossiya flag at places that banned the confederate flag.
Did a Novorossiya guy do something to get in the news recently that would make that place look bad?
Not sure if serious.
Then no. I don't think they just banned every St. Andrews Cross ever anywhere.
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 01:29:09 PM
Then no. I don't think they just banned every St. Andrews Cross ever anywhere.
:rolleyes: I was sort of making a joke since the flags are so similar. Never mind.
I'm glad my redneck Florida sister is chiming in on the debate:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F36.media.tumblr.com%2Fb21d85fcc254a7e4f9e21cf26789e1a6%2Ftumblr_nqf4p4MpyS1rhnukoo1_500.jpg&hash=7abbe6cc98966266adcd3beb260bfda740f38a3d)
(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11537702_843400495747391_8753166541619652964_n.jpg?oh=a92907c6a9181ade3e4d0118573e8a3b&oe=562CBE90)
(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/988563_781794195251638_1514273577333927706_n.jpg?oh=2c626c04514b382a9008a364a4d405e1&oe=562168DC)
I wish you Krauts could learn to do some things half way. :D
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 01:31:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 01:29:09 PM
Then no. I don't think they just banned every St. Andrews Cross ever anywhere.
:rolleyes: I was sort of making a joke since the flags are so similar. Never mind.
Sorry that was to obscure for me :blush:
Okay. So I guess now we're going to get the backlash against the backlash, in true culture war form. Should be lots of fun :mellow:
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 02:32:50 PM
Okay. So I guess now we're going to get the backlash against the backlash, in true culture war form. Should be lots of fun :mellow:
Well that is how it goes these days.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2015, 08:03:36 AM
Yes. Again it was everywhere before.
I think a huge factor has been the GI generation dying off. They were the ones whose Grandfathers were all Confederate vets. Back when they were still alive we couldn't be too mean about the Confederacy.
That's interesting; from what I understood the Confederate Battle Flag resurged in popularity only after the Second World War as a symbol of the Dixiecrats. Prior to that it wasn't widely used.
Interestingly, prior to the Second World War the US Flag was used by hate groups. Here's the Klan marching on Washington in 1925:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcowgernation.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2Fkkkdc3.jpg&hash=7fe8ed0a1d4bd22f89a90b4a696a7266d7ecd097)
And the German-Amercan Bund from 1938:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fskepticism-images.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com%2Fimages%2Fjreviews%2FBund-Madison-Square-Garden-1939.02.20.jpg&hash=e1224b875e97e5a5a4d94767aa3a56d7d465212b)
Not in the South. Hate Groups were more national back then. I mean it would make no sense for the Bund to have Confederate Flags.
I love the giant, glowing George Washington.
Personally, I think there is a lot of milage to be had out of a fifty foot, radioactive, Nazi Washington. :D
Quote from: Malthus on June 25, 2015, 03:30:23 PM
I love the giant, glowing George Washington.
Personally, I think there is a lot of milage to be had out of a fifty foot, radioactive, Nazi Washington. :D
Unfortunately that glorious moment of giant George Washington worshiping was interrupted by angry Jews rushing the stage. Geez. Lighten up Yitzhak.
It is a fair point though. A awful lot of vicious, racist hateful things have been done under the Stars and Stripes.
So the Nazis co-opted Washington and Commies co-opted Lincoln. Odd how that worked out.
Quote from: Barrister on June 25, 2015, 03:37:02 PM
It is a fair point though. A awful lot of vicious, racist hateful things have been done under the Stars and Stripes.
Not really. I mean yes lots of bad things have been done under the Stars and Stripes. But that is not the point.
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
So the Nazis co-opted Washington and Commies co-opted Lincoln. Odd how that worked out.
Get 'em to fight! A Nazi Washington-Commie Lincoln cage match!
I don't think either group was very successful at co-opting them though.
Quote from: Malthus on June 25, 2015, 03:41:01 PM
Get 'em to fight! A Nazi Washington-Commie Lincoln cage match!
Washington would win easily. Since they were both so tall I would prefer one-on-one basketball.
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 03:42:07 PM
I don't think either group was very successful at co-opting them though.
I guess I should have said "tried".
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 03:34:10 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 25, 2015, 03:30:23 PM
I love the giant, glowing George Washington.
Personally, I think there is a lot of milage to be had out of a fifty foot, radioactive, Nazi Washington. :D
Unfortunately that glorious moment of giant George Washington worshiping was interrupted by angry Jews rushing the stage. Geez. Lighten up Yitzhak.
A glowing Washington that can't drive off a pack of pesky Jews with lasers shooting from his eyes simply isn't worth worshipping. :(
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 03:43:21 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 25, 2015, 03:41:01 PM
Get 'em to fight! A Nazi Washington-Commie Lincoln cage match!
Washington would win easily. Since they were both so tall I would prefer one-on-one basketball.
Wasn't Washington a modest 6'1 or 2? Barely a point guard. Now that Lincoln guy was at least a small forward.
Huh you're right. For some reason I thought he was like 6'5".
Quote from: Valmy on June 25, 2015, 03:54:47 PM
Huh you're right. For some reason I thought he was like 6'5".
Easy mistake to make. Languish has taught me his is normally portrayed as a 50' glow in the dark superhero
He's a giant in our memories :worthy:
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
So the Nazis co-opted Washington and Commies co-opted Lincoln. Odd how that worked out.
Washington makes a poor Nazi hero, considering how much he respected the Jews.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
So the Nazis co-opted Washington and Commies co-opted Lincoln. Odd how that worked out.
Washington makes a poor Nazi hero, considering how much he respected the Jews.
And Lincoln was very pro-business, which a far left prof of mine used to angrily admit.
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 04:36:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
So the Nazis co-opted Washington and Commies co-opted Lincoln. Odd how that worked out.
Washington makes a poor Nazi hero, considering how much he respected the Jews.
And Lincoln was very pro-business, which a far left prof of mine used to angrily admit.
Is there a far left in the US?
Quote from: Syt on June 25, 2015, 01:34:31 PM
I'm glad my redneck Florida sister is chiming in on the debate:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F36.media.tumblr.com%2Fb21d85fcc254a7e4f9e21cf26789e1a6%2Ftumblr_nqf4p4MpyS1rhnukoo1_500.jpg&hash=7abbe6cc98966266adcd3beb260bfda740f38a3d)
She doea know it was a "battle" flag doesn't she? Helping to kill people was it's purpose.
Anyone got a shirt with Che waving a Confederate flag?
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 04:36:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
So the Nazis co-opted Washington and Commies co-opted Lincoln. Odd how that worked out.
Washington makes a poor Nazi hero, considering how much he respected the Jews.
And Lincoln was very pro-business, which a far left prof of mine used to angrily admit.
The right has difficult time with Lincoln's enemies referring to themselves as conservative. Clement Vallandigham hardly makes a good role model for conservatives. Well, maybe Rand Paul.
Reflecting on the changes in the confederate flag use over the past couple decades, I think a major change was 9/11. Before that the flag was very common. It was also very common to denigrate "yankees". My father used to tell me that the worst insult growing up was to be called a yankee, which used to bother him because he was born in Illinois (my grandparents were there during WWII while my grandfather was being trained in the Navy) and he thought the other school kids could detect that somehow and he really was a yankee.
I remember hearing the radio on 9/11 and the radio hosts telling listeners that they understood lots of listeners would prefer their taxes going to Richmond, but that this was not the time to trash new york or raise the confederate flag. And all that did stop. The confederate flag went away and the american flag was everywhere. Eventually the american flags went back to their normal level, but the confederate flags never came back and neither did the "yankee" bashing. But when you lose the disdain for the north, it is hard to really see the flag in the same way.
Some of that could also be because I live in a city with lots of northern transplants.
Interesting Dorsey.
BTW, how strong is your accent?
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 25, 2015, 04:43:15 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 04:36:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 25, 2015, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 25, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
So the Nazis co-opted Washington and Commies co-opted Lincoln. Odd how that worked out.
Washington makes a poor Nazi hero, considering how much he respected the Jews.
And Lincoln was very pro-business, which a far left prof of mine used to angrily admit.
Is there a far left in the US?
Oh, not at all. Especially not on college campuses.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2015, 09:12:15 PM
Interesting Dorsey.
BTW, how strong is your accent?
I have no accent at all.
My grandfather had a strong accent. My father had an accent. I don't have one.
FWIW, growing up my father was determined I wouldn't have an accent. He thought it would be a burden in life that people would assume I was uneducated. I would get in trouble and go to time out for saying words that were accented. I'm not sure that is why I don't have an accent though. Since I was 10 I've mostly lived in South Florida and Atlanta, which aren't places with accents.
I had a similar experience with 9/11. I was very young at the time, I believe in fourth or fifth grade, but already quite in earnest about the South's independence. But I lived in a very small bubble and took it as a matter of course that my feelings must be shared by the wider body of Southerners, and islamic terrorism was an unknown, unheard of element. So that when I heard that there was a major attack on New York City and D.C, I assumed it was the beginning of a general Southern rising. My good humor and enthusiasm for our chance at independence was almost universally repudiated by the people around me, and the realization that most people did not, in fact, seek the discomfiture of the yankees and reassertion of independence at the soonest possible point was a major event for me.
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 25, 2015, 09:21:40 PM
I had a similar experience with 9/11. I was very young at the time, I believe in fourth or fifth grade, but already quite in earnest about the South's independence. But I lived in a very small bubble and took it as a matter of course that my feelings must be shared by the wider body of Southerners, and islamic terrorism was an unknown, unheard of element. So that when I heard that there was a major attack on New York City and D.C, I assumed it was the beginning of a general Southern rising. My good humor and enthusiasm for our chance at independence was almost universally repudiated by the people around me, and the realization that most people did not, in fact, seek the discomfiture of the yankees and reassertion of independence at the soonest possible point was a major event for me.
That actually isn't similar at all. :D
It's similar to the extent that it's the opposite. :lol:
Southern terrorists launched 9/11 ? :lol:
Shirley you can't be serious, Lettuce.
I mean, I was very young. Islamic fundamentalists may genuinely have been something I'd never, ever heard about.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 25, 2015, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2015, 09:12:15 PM
Interesting Dorsey.
BTW, how strong is your accent?
I have no accent at all.
It you're not mute, you've got an accent. It might not be a traditional southern accent, but you have an accent of some sort.
But more importantly, what does he call a soft drink? :P
Quote from: dps on June 25, 2015, 09:54:56 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 25, 2015, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 25, 2015, 09:12:15 PM
Interesting Dorsey.
BTW, how strong is your accent?
I have no accent at all.
It you're not mute, you've got an accent. It might not be a traditional southern accent, but you have an accent of some sort.
Generic American I guess.
Living in Atlanta, a soda is almost always a coke. :)
America should just have let the South go. Problem solved.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2DWXfGR.jpg&hash=60aa0631c229b563dd13aaa97b41136693040136)
:x
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 25, 2015, 05:04:53 PM
She doea know it was a "battle" flag doesn't she? Helping to kill people was it's purpose.
The flag didn't kill anybody. Of course neither did t-shirts. But I bet if Che fans were shooting up churches those shirts would be banned by Walmart as well.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 25, 2015, 04:43:15 PM
Is there a far left in the US?
Of course there is. We had socialists running cities in the North and West for decades before the Soviet Union soiled their good name. But they have never been strong nationally. But man in college I would have lecturers inform me of how the Bourgeoisie sold out the French Revolution and the Revolutions of 1848 and I remember one professor being appalled when I suggested to him in private that surely people need some sort of structured society. And this was in Texas so I can only assume what it is like in blue states.
Quote from: dps on June 25, 2015, 09:54:56 PM
It you're not mute, you've got an accent. It might not be a traditional southern accent, but you have an accent of some sort.
Yeah I have always been told by northerners that I fail at Texas accent. Meri and Cal and Oex and the other Languishites I have met may disagree but nobody has ever said 'Oh wow you talk just like Ross Perot'. I blame Austin, we are called 'Texafornia' for a reason and thanks to Hollywood that is where our generic accent comes from.
I don't remember your accent at all, which most likely means it was rather American-neutral. :hmm:
My accent varies a little depending on my energy level. Most of the time it's pretty much "Central Midland" but if I get tired or have had a few drinks a little Appalachian comes out.
I never had a strong Appalachian accent, but whenever mom puts in that video of me in high school-- oh man :Embarrass:
All that said, people rarely seem to be able to place my accent. People from the deep South think I'm from Wisconsin. People from New York and New England think I'm from the South.
My accent changes based on where I live. Despite people's skepticism I swear it isn't intentional. :blush:
I had lunch in San Francisco with a high school friend back in March, and within like ten seconds of talking to me he was like "Wow, I can tell you live in the South now."
Dorsey, what did you think of Ide's accent? ^_^
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2015, 07:43:23 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 25, 2015, 04:43:15 PM
Is there a far left in the US?
Of course there is. We had socialists running cities in the North and West for decades before the Soviet Union soiled their good name. But they have never been strong nationally. But man in college I would have lecturers inform me of how the Bourgeoisie sold out the French Revolution and the Revolutions of 1848 and I remember one professor being appalled when I suggested to him in private that surely people need some sort of structured society. And this was in Texas so I can only assume what it is like in blue states.
the question was posed in the present tense. ;)
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 26, 2015, 10:00:56 AM
the question was posed in the present tense. ;)
Yes we even have hardcore Stalinists like Ide.
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2015, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 26, 2015, 10:00:56 AM
the question was posed in the present tense. ;)
Yes we even have hardcore Stalinists like Ide.
I feel I must concede the point.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 26, 2015, 08:46:06 AM
Dorsey, what did you think of Ide's accent? ^_^
It isn't nearly as strong as you guys claim.
But, within the spectrum of southern accents, his is a low class hillbilly one. Sorry Ide. :(
I'd be interested to hear more about this spectrum of southern accents. I don't suppose you mean to say he sounds like he's from East Tennessee?
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2015, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 26, 2015, 10:00:56 AM
the question was posed in the present tense. ;)
Yes we even have hardcore Stalinists like Ide.
Seattle is just about there. They have a radical, activist socialist on the city council.
She keeps talking about revolution and corporate pirates.
The left is really tiresome. It's the same old story: evil bankers and similar, often with names like Cohen etc, are horrible people and control society way too much. We've heard it six million times before.
Quote from: Tonitrus on June 26, 2015, 11:07:36 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2015, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 26, 2015, 10:00:56 AM
the question was posed in the present tense. ;)
Yes we even have hardcore Stalinists like Ide.
Seattle is just about there. They have a radical, activist socialist on the city council.
She keeps talking about revolution and corporate pirates.
I forgot about her. Ok, I fully concede the point.
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 26, 2015, 11:00:06 AM
I'd be interested to hear more about this spectrum of southern accents. I don't suppose you mean to say he sounds like he's from East Tennessee?
I really don't know. Maybe he sounds a bit appalachian?
For what it's worth, a lot of West Virginians make their way to DC (strip clubs are full of them) and I've spent a whole week in Harlan County. I couldn't pick any difference between the two accents.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 26, 2015, 11:21:07 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 26, 2015, 11:00:06 AM
I'd be interested to hear more about this spectrum of southern accents. I don't suppose you mean to say he sounds like he's from East Tennessee?
I really don't know. Maybe he sounds a bit appalachian?
I'd agree with that. Contrary to popular belief Ide is easy enough to understand, but it's clearly a Southern accent. Lettuce, I haven't heard enough East Tennesseans speak to be able to compare Ide to them, but I mean he doesn't sound like Dolly Parton or anything. :D
He sounds like Gomer Pyle.
What I imagine Ide sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
Quote from: Syt on June 26, 2015, 11:56:14 AM
What I imagine Ide sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
Huh. Lots of that in the Okie side of the family. But then the family is originally from the Appalachia part of Ohio and West Virginia. This is pretty much how my Grandfather said his father talked and he was born in Gallia County Ohio.
I don't know what my accent is. People around here don't think I'm from here.
I wish Manitoba had some kind of hillbilly accent. I'd totally play that up. :alberta:
After 16 years here, seems I use a few southern words with their proper southern accent and throws people off. Y'all.
Quote from: Barrister on June 26, 2015, 12:40:32 PM
I wish Manitoba had some kind of hillbilly accent. I'd totally play that up. :alberta:
We can think of you as a hillbilly without the accent, if you like. ;)
I imoogine all the Canadian posters tookin like hoockey players eh.
When I have the energy, I like to return to my birthplace with the accent of The Valley.
Quote from: garbon on June 26, 2015, 12:57:50 PM
When I have the energy, I like to return to my birthplace with the accent of The Valley.
Joking aside, is their a male version of Valleyspeak?
Quote from: Malthus on June 26, 2015, 12:46:51 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 26, 2015, 12:40:32 PM
I wish Manitoba had some kind of hillbilly accent. I'd totally play that up. :alberta:
We can think of you as a hillbilly without the accent, if you like. ;)
You don't already? :o
I always picture BB posting while using his curling broom in a Mounties uniform.
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2015, 01:01:54 PM
I always picture BB posting while using his curling broom in a Mounties uniform.
Some things are best kept in the privacy of the bedroom.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 26, 2015, 11:26:20 AM
For what it's worth, a lot of West Virginians make their way to DC (strip clubs are full of them) and I've spent a whole week in Harlan County. I couldn't pick any difference between the two accents.
They are pretty much the same. As a West Virginian I would say the Eastern KY accent is just more pronounced.
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2015, 12:00:46 PM
Quote from: Syt on June 26, 2015, 11:56:14 AM
What I imagine Ide sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
Huh. Lots of that in the Okie side of the family. But then the family is originally from the Appalachia part of Ohio and West Virginia. This is pretty much how my Grandfather said his father talked and he was born in Gallia County Ohio.
That part of Ohio is basically an extension of WV. My brother is engaged to a girl in Gallipolis :mellow:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 26, 2015, 12:58:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 26, 2015, 12:57:50 PM
When I have the energy, I like to return to my birthplace with the accent of The Valley.
Joking aside, is their a male version of Valleyspeak?
I don't think so. Maybe its kin would be something like surfer speak?
That said, there are many gay wannabe valley girls.
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2015, 01:01:54 PM
I always picture BB posting while using his curling broom in a Mounties uniform.
:rolleyes:
I'm no mountie. I'm a barrister. I post while wearing my barrister's robes.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0211%2F8034%2Fproducts%2Frobe_1024x1024.png%3Fv%3D1374163150&hash=fde193e1f166b39af0e91c81315956a892abb0f7)
Isn't that what Ruth Bader Ginsberg wears? :unsure:
Quote from: derspiess on June 26, 2015, 01:37:07 PM
Isn't that what Ruth Bader Ginsberg wears? :unsure:
Doesn't she also wear a cod piece?
Quote from: Barrister on June 26, 2015, 01:23:58 PM
I'm no mountie. I'm a barrister. I post while wearing my barrister's robes.
Are you wearing a wig? Otherwise no deal.
Quote from: Caliga on June 26, 2015, 08:44:12 AM
My accent changes based on where I live. Despite people's skepticism I swear it isn't intentional. :blush:
I had lunch in San Francisco with a high school friend back in March, and within like ten seconds of talking to me he was like "Wow, I can tell you live in the South now."
You probably didn't correct him either.
Quote from: derspiess on June 26, 2015, 01:37:07 PM
Isn't that what Ruth Bader Ginsberg wears? :unsure:
It looks what the guy on the Quaker oats can wears.
Bingo.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 26, 2015, 10:57:17 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 26, 2015, 08:46:06 AM
Dorsey, what did you think of Ide's accent? ^_^
It isn't nearly as strong as you guys claim.
But, within the spectrum of southern accents, his is a low class hillbilly one. Sorry Ide. :(
I am looking soooo forward to moving up to Pennsylvania. <_<
And I'm not a Stalinist, per se.
Quote from: Syt on June 26, 2015, 11:56:14 AM
What I imagine Ide sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
I dunno. When I'm upset or excited, maybe. I don't say "y'all" ever.
I don't sound like Gomer Pyle.
Quote from: Ideologue on June 27, 2015, 02:32:34 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 26, 2015, 11:56:14 AM
What I imagine Ide sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
I dunno. When I'm upset or excited, maybe. I don't say "y'all" ever.
I don't sound like Gomer Pyle.
More like this then? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nflGNbz4PE8
Seems the witchhunt has gone so far as to call for exhuming Forrest's body. Such indecency!
Quote from: Ideologue on June 27, 2015, 02:31:13 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 26, 2015, 10:57:17 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 26, 2015, 08:46:06 AM
Dorsey, what did you think of Ide's accent? ^_^
It isn't nearly as strong as you guys claim.
But, within the spectrum of southern accents, his is a low class hillbilly one. Sorry Ide. :(
I am looking soooo forward to moving up to Pennsylvania. <_<
And I'm not a Stalinist, per se.
I look forward to seeing the conversations between you and the yinzers.
:P
Quote from: Ideologue on June 27, 2015, 02:31:13 AM
I am looking soooo forward to moving up to Pennsylvania. <_<
:huh:
Quote from: Caliga on June 27, 2015, 06:04:27 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on June 27, 2015, 02:31:13 AM
I am looking soooo forward to moving up to Pennsylvania. <_<
:huh:
If you weren't so busy with your suck and blow practicing, you would have been paying attention. ;)
Gee, that helped explain things. :sleep:
Quote from: Caliga on June 27, 2015, 08:39:17 AM
Gee, that helped explain things. :sleep:
Ide talked about it earlier this year but I'll admit that I had at first missed the post where he said it was official.
:hmm: I remember him saying something about possibly moving to Pittsburgh a while back.
I don't know if it is official either, but not like i am gonna pass up a chance to demean Caliga.
Carry on then. -_-
Quote from: katmai on June 27, 2015, 04:38:42 PM
I don't know if it is official either, but not like i am gonna pass up a chance to demean Caliga.
:moon:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FurgQq4Y.jpg&hash=52d8544d33aaa9956efec98801cad06c19b20947)
Yeah, I saw that today. If I had climbing gear, I probably ought to have done it myself. Would probably have helped me get a job in Pittsburgh.
I don't get it. :blush:
Carry on, ______. Old movie series.
My wayward son!!!!!!!!!!
I just saw a scrapper pass by with an enormous Confederate Battle Flag on his truck. Until today I had never seen any of the Confederate flags flown here in Melbourne. :alberta:
Six African-American churches have burned since the shooting. :(
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/29/six-predominately-black-southern-churches-burn-within-a-week-with-arson-suspected-in-at-least-three/?tid=hpModule_9d3add6c-8a79-11e2-98d9-3012c1cd8d1e
Ok, I'm glad I'll miss the race war.
Quote from: Ideologue on June 29, 2015, 04:45:52 AM
Ok, I'm glad I'll miss the race war.
Oh, you'll enjoy the more subtle northern racism.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 29, 2015, 04:17:46 AM
Six African-American churches have burned since the shooting. :(
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/29/six-predominately-black-southern-churches-burn-within-a-week-with-arson-suspected-in-at-least-three/?tid=hpModule_9d3add6c-8a79-11e2-98d9-3012c1cd8d1e
Three of them were caused by regular means at least. We will see what caused the others.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 29, 2015, 09:40:16 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on June 29, 2015, 04:45:52 AM
Ok, I'm glad I'll miss the race war.
Oh, you'll enjoy the more subtle northern racism.
Giuliani...so subtle.
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2015, 09:54:10 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 29, 2015, 09:40:16 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on June 29, 2015, 04:45:52 AM
Ok, I'm glad I'll miss the race war.
Oh, you'll enjoy the more subtle northern racism.
Giuliani...so subtle.
Not braying jackass. Subtle. Like driving darkies out of a tiny rural town without being too over the top.
Quote from: garbon on June 28, 2015, 09:28:17 AM
I don't get it. :blush:
If you get a chance to see some of the Carry on Movies I think you would like them. Carry on up the Khyber would probably bet the biggest hit with the Languish crowd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvp_GJ_4dow
Quote from: Ideologue on June 29, 2015, 04:45:52 AM
Ok, I'm glad I'll miss the race war.
Baby, please. To do that you gotta make like me and escape the country. Now in Europe, I can be hated on for being Muslim! :swiss:
Your kind is not welcome here Mohammedan :mad:
Maybe you should stop dressing like the fruit of Islam.
<_<
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/index.html
Quote
The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2015/07/01/tv-land-pulls-reruns-dukes-hazzard/
QuoteTV Land pulls reruns of 'Dukes of Hazzard'
The latest victim of the growing controversy over the Confederate flag is the 1980s TV series "The Dukes of Hazzard."
A TV Land spokesperson confirmed Tuesday that the network has pulled reruns of the series from its schedule, which had been airing twice a day.
The network declined to comment on why the episodes were removed, but the southern-set show has come under fire recently for its depiction of the Confederate flag, which is emblazoned on the hood of the Duke Boys' signature 1969 orange Dodge Charger.
Warner Bros., which owns "The Dukes of Hazzard," last week halted production on toy replicas of the car dubbed the General Lee. That followed moves by other retailers such as Walmart and eBay to stop selling items bearing the Stars and Bars after the deadly church shooting in Charleston, SC, in June.
A Change.org petition telling Viacom and Warner Bros. to "Stop Banning Dukes of Hazzard" had collected nearly 400 signatures since launching on Tuesday.
"The Dukes of Hazzard" originally aired on CBS from 1979-85 and followed the adventures of cousins Bo Derek (John Schneider) and Luke Derek (Tom Wopat) who raced around town in their trusty stock car.
This article originally appeared in The New York Post.
Four4Four: Chrissy Teigen wants everyone to see her nipples
Also, FOX/Ny Post, the Confederate battle flag is NOT the Stars&Bars :rolleyes:
QuoteA Change.org petition telling Viacom and Warner Bros. to "Stop Banning Dukes of Hazzard" had collected nearly 400 signatures since launching on Tuesday.
400 signatures? The "Make Pedophilia Mandatory" online petition would probably collect more signatures in that period. :D
To be fair, many male viewers probably didn't notice much of the flag due to, uhm, other qualities of the show.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette1.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fdukes-of-hazzard%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fc9%2FDaisy_Duke_in_episode_.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20140310003918&hash=ac0e2d931f0913dfc6946d63e6105357abb70e3a)
Quote from: Syt on July 03, 2015, 01:30:42 AM
To be fair, many male viewers probably didn't notice much of the flag due to, uhm, other qualities of the show.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette1.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fdukes-of-hazzard%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fc9%2FDaisy_Duke_in_episode_.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20140310003918&hash=ac0e2d931f0913dfc6946d63e6105357abb70e3a)
What are we talking about again?
I like that she's cropped.
Bubba Watson, the golfer, bought the General Lee a while back and according to the radio is now planning to repaint the roof of the car with the american flag. :bleeding:
Did the Lee in that crappy DoH movie remake have the C-word flag on it, or will they have to ban that now too? :P
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 03, 2015, 06:18:51 PM
Did the Lee in that crappy DoH movie remake have the C-word flag on it, or will they have to ban that now too? :P
I think it did, but they won't have to ban it, because no one will ever try to watch it again.
When I was in the hospital for a broken leg back in '06, that Dukes of Hazard movie was on infinite repeat on the hospital TV system. Along with Madasacar.
Both are seared into my memory. :cry:
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 03, 2015, 06:18:51 PM
Did the Lee in that crappy DoH movie remake have the C-word flag on it, or will they have to ban that now too? :P
Mid way through the film, Cooter adds it to the car, after rebuilding it. It's part of a silly joke when they go to Atlanta with the car.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2015, 06:57:34 PM
When I was in the hospital for a broken leg back in '06, that Dukes of Hazard movie was on infinite repeat on the hospital TV system. Along with Madasacar.
Both are seared into my memory. :cry:
Madasacar? Your searing may need service.
Quote from: The Brain on July 04, 2015, 08:55:37 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2015, 06:57:34 PM
When I was in the hospital for a broken leg back in '06, that Dukes of Hazard movie was on infinite repeat on the hospital TV system. Along with Madasacar.
Both are seared into my memory. :cry:
Madasacar? Your searing may need service.
YOU GOT TO MOVE IT!
"If we're going to remove the Confederate Flag because it's divisive and racist, then we need to remove the president and his administration for the same reasons."
- My sisters, Facebook :bleeding:
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 04:37:44 AM
"If we're going to remove the Confederate Flag because it's divisive and racist, then we need to remove the president and his administration for the same reasons."
- My sisters, Facebook :bleeding:
Wow. :lol:
Well, it was a picture they re-posted from some page they liked, but still.
I also liked one along the lines, "Why is it when you say your opinion it's 1st Amendment rights, and when I do it it's hate speech?" Well, maybe it's the content of your opinion? :P
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 04:37:44 AM
"If we're going to remove the Confederate Flag because it's divisive and racist, then we need to remove the president and his administration for the same reasons."
- My sisters, Facebook :bleeding:
:lol:
Mieux vaut en rire qu'en pleurerPS: I take it that the previous post on FB about "Che Guevarra" (sic) was not corrected. :P
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 04:37:44 AM
"If we're going to remove the Confederate Flag because it's divisive and racist, then we need to remove the president and his administration for the same reasons."
- My sisters, Facebook :bleeding:
Your sisters have gone native to a ridiculous degree.
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 05:11:17 AM
Well, it was a picture they re-posted from some page they liked, but still.
I also liked one along the lines, "Why is it when you say your opinion it's 1st Amendment rights, and when I do it it's hate speech?" Well, maybe it's the content of your opinion? :P
Presumably talking to an American, not you. Your rights are actually pretty circumscribed in that regard. :P
I always love it when people invoke the First Amendment before private actors who simply tell them something they've said is dumb or offensive. OMG MAH FREEDOM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 06, 2015, 05:30:38 AM
Presumably talking to an American, not you. Your rights are actually pretty circumscribed in that regard. :P
Yeah. :P
QuoteI always love it when people invoke the First Amendment before private actors who simply tell them something they've said is dumb or offensive. OMG MAH FREEDOM
Well, my sisters have been in the U.S. for only 20+ years, so you can't expect them to know the finer points of civil rights (the two oldest are naturalized, though).
They hooked up with military dudes, right?
It has seemed to me, that in many cases, military wives are the type who usually just take on and parrot/identify/embody with everything about their husbands.
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 06, 2015, 02:14:17 PM
They hooked up with military dudes, right?
It has seemed to me, that in many cases, military wives are the type who usually just take on and parrot/identify/embody with everything about their husbands.
They better, or they lose that stream of nylons and chocolate bars.
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 06, 2015, 02:14:17 PM
They hooked up with military dudes, right?
It has seemed to me, that in many cases, military wives are the type who usually just take on and parrot/identify/embody with everything about their husbands.
Yes, but I would say they're more politically interested/informed than their husbands. My middle sister is an interesting case - she became prejudiced against Hispanics when they were in El Paso, and against black when they lived in North Carolina. I figure if she lived in Vancouver she'd become prejudiced against Asians.
Not really a people person then :D
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 04:37:44 AM
"If we're going to remove the Confederate Flag because it's divisive and racist, then we need to remove the president and his administration for the same reasons."
- My sisters, Facebook :bleeding:
Martinus will be along shortly to ask why you are friended to them.
Then he will ask why you are not legally allowed to be incestuously married to them in a polygamous manner.
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 06, 2015, 02:14:17 PM
They hooked up with military dudes, right?
It has seemed to me, that in many cases, military wives are the type who usually just take on and parrot/identify/embody with everything about their husbands.
Yes, but I would say they're more politically interested/informed than their husbands. My middle sister is an interesting case - she became prejudiced against Hispanics when they were in El Paso, and against black when they lived in North Carolina. I figure if she lived in Vancouver she'd become prejudiced against Asians.
The
real trouble begins when he's posted to Europe ... ;)
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 04:37:44 AM
"If we're going to remove the Confederate Flag because it's divisive and racist, then we need to remove the president and his administration for the same reasons."
- My sisters, Facebook :bleeding:
Good logic.
Quote from: Habbaku on July 06, 2015, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 04:37:44 AM
"If we're going to remove the Confederate Flag because it's divisive and racist, then we need to remove the president and his administration for the same reasons."
- My sisters, Facebook :bleeding:
Martinus will be along shortly to ask why you are friended to them.
Quote from: Valmy on July 06, 2015, 02:57:38 PM
Then he will ask why you are not legally allowed to be incestuously married to them in a polygamous manner.
:lol:
When I meet an African-American woman I normally ask "Poly? Want a cracker?".
Quote from: The Brain on July 06, 2015, 03:03:48 PM
When I meet an African-American woman I normally ask "Poly? Want a cracker?".
Since when is parroting a thing?
Oh wait, urban dictionary tells me it is that thing of like when you put your penis on someone's shoulder like a parrot. :hmm:
Quote from: Malthus on July 06, 2015, 02:58:12 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 06, 2015, 02:14:17 PM
They hooked up with military dudes, right?
It has seemed to me, that in many cases, military wives are the type who usually just take on and parrot/identify/embody with everything about their husbands.
Yes, but I would say they're more politically interested/informed than their husbands. My middle sister is an interesting case - she became prejudiced against Hispanics when they were in El Paso, and against black when they lived in North Carolina. I figure if she lived in Vancouver she'd become prejudiced against Asians.
The real trouble begins when he's posted to Europe ... ;)
They are Germans...maybe that is where it comes from. :P
Quote from: Malthus on July 06, 2015, 02:58:12 PM
The real trouble begins when he's posted to Europe ... ;)
Their husbands have been out of the military for a long time, so unlikely to happen. ;)
Also, from last night:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CImysaPUwAA-Y29.jpg)
:lol:
Quote from: Syt on July 06, 2015, 10:58:26 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 06, 2015, 02:58:12 PM
The real trouble begins when he's posted to Europe ... ;)
Their husbands have been out of the military for a long time, so unlikely to happen. ;)
Also, from last night:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CImysaPUwAA-Y29.jpg)
:lol:
HATE WINS
I don't understand that connection at all. But I guess Obama = Jeff Davis is preferable to Obama = Hitler so he should feel all warm and fuzzy over that.
Quote from: Valmy on July 07, 2015, 09:05:50 AM
I don't understand that connection at all. But I guess Obama = Jeff Davis is preferable to Obama = Hitler so he should feel all warm and fuzzy over that.
It's a parody of the white house having rainbow lights shining on it after the SCROTUS ruling.
Everytime I see SCROTUS I read it as SCROTUM.
Quote from: derspiess on July 07, 2015, 09:09:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 07, 2015, 09:05:50 AM
I don't understand that connection at all. But I guess Obama = Jeff Davis is preferable to Obama = Hitler so he should feel all warm and fuzzy over that.
It's a parody of the white house having rainbow lights shining on it after the SCROTUS ruling.
I thought it was a follow up to the previous declaration that if you are going to take the Confederate Battle Flag off the statehouse in South Carolina you must also remove Obama from the White House. Your version makes much more sense. :P
Quote from: lustindarkness on July 07, 2015, 09:13:48 AM
Everytime I see SCROTUS I read it as SCROTUM.
The Scrotum was only an organ of government under Bill Clinton's administration. :P
:D
QuoteDear Walmart,
I see on the news that all items that have the Confederate flag on them will be pulled from the shelves, because they offend a Few of your customers. I'm writing to let you know of a few things in your store that offends me. Please remove all the "Made in China" crap that is on the shelf. Please remove all produce, meats, fish, and other food items not grown here in the United States. Please shut down the sweatshops in these foreign countries, where you buy clothing and shoes made by children in below standard working conditions making pennies a day. Please remove all pet food off the shelves that is made overseas that has sickened and killed our pets. At Christmas-time, please don't wish me "Happy Holidays" ..... a simple "MERRY CHRISTMAS" will be fine. Lastly, how about some good old-fashioned American Customer Service? These are a few of the things that offend me about your stores. Seems your bottom-line is all that really matters to y'all any more. I bet Sam is doing flip-flops in his grave. Here in America we have a lot bigger problems than a flag that has no racial significance ... only a part of history and pride. How about helping create some American jobs by selling American products ... your return will be ten-fold!!! (Please share and hashtag #Walmart in your caption to help it go viral, and so WalMart will see this!)
The thing is, if Walmart switches to US only products in everything, their target demographic won't be able to afford many of their products anymore. :P
Walmart did try to remove black customers. :hmm:
I just wanna get me one of those ISIS cakes at Wal-mart.
That quote is kind of a perfect example of how populism has become poisoned in the US, with basically correct positions about not dealing with slave labor states tinged with really unappealing racism, historical ignorance, nostalgic non sequiturs, and Christian persecution fantasies.
Because populism used to be so pure and righteous.
"Stayed poisoned" then. Whatever.
Well then don't shop at Walmart then. Oh wait that is the only store in the surrounding five counties.
I've started shopping there a lot less, due to their bad scheduling practices. If you happen to come in at the wrong time, you can spend 40 minutes to do the simplest shit.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 09, 2015, 12:47:05 PM
I've started shopping there a lot less, due to their bad scheduling practices. If you happen to come in at the wrong time, you can spend 40 minutes to do the simplest shit.
If you go at the wrong time, you're also treated to the freak show to end all freak shows.
Quote from: derspiess on July 09, 2015, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 09, 2015, 12:47:05 PM
I've started shopping there a lot less, due to their bad scheduling practices. If you happen to come in at the wrong time, you can spend 40 minutes to do the simplest shit.
If you go at the wrong time, you're also treated to the freak show to end all freak shows.
And by "wrong time" you mean any time that one steps foot in there?
:lol:
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2015, 12:52:40 PM
And by "wrong time" you mean any time that one steps foot in there?
No, trust me-- there are times way worse than others.
Quote from: derspiess on July 09, 2015, 01:04:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2015, 12:52:40 PM
And by "wrong time" you mean any time that one steps foot in there?
No, trust me-- there are times way worse than others.
Maybe it is the states in which you frequent. I've never noticed it to be particularly worse at any given hour - and I've been to my version of hell many times. :weep:
When I go with my mom to Wally's to pick up yarn I notice, in addition to the expected throng of the chromosonally impaired, a goodly smattering of hipsters. Probably a different dynamic outside of a college town.
Quote from: derspiess on July 09, 2015, 12:40:16 PM
Because populism used to be so pure and righteous.
It gets a bad rap here. It's really more of a style then anything else, it's opposite is elitism, and if there is one thing that is true about Languish, the people here think they are elite.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 09, 2015, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 09, 2015, 12:40:16 PM
Because populism used to be so pure and righteous.
It gets a bad rap here. It's really more of a style then anything else, it's opposite is elitism, and if there is one thing that is true about Languish, the people here think they are elite.
Well, elite at snark, anyway. ;)
Hey some of us know the Brazilian ambassador.
The FBI director just announced that the Bureau botched the background check and whatshisname shouldn't have been able to buy a gun. Something about calling the wrong police department.
Doh.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 10, 2015, 05:23:38 PM
The FBI director just announced that the Bureau botched the background check and whatshisname shouldn't have been able to buy a gun. Something about calling the wrong police department.
*sigh*
Meanwhile in my sisters' world, this repost.
(https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xpa1/l/t51.2885-15/s640x640/e15/925589_888334441232001_627514923_n.jpg)
QuoteThis is what the Confederate Flag is all about!!.. Honor an Respect!!.. Can I get an Amen!!..
Found this on the name on the gravestone:
QuoteSaturday, January 23, 1886 Fredericksburg (Virginia) Star newspaper obituary
"Levy Carnine, an old colored man, was buried by the Confederate veterans in Mansfield, La., on Sunday. He was a body servant during the Indian war of 1836, and went faithfully through the late war with the DeSoto, La. Pelican Rifles. After his master was killed he continued to serve his company until the war was over. After the war he became an active Democrat and worked hard to overthrow Radicalism in Louisiana. The veterans of the Pelican Rifles attended his funeral in a body. Peace to his ashes."
And an article espousing that tens of thousands blacks volunteered for the Southern cause (so obviously, this was not about slavery).
http://www.countygenweb.com/desotoparishla/carnine.htm
My understanding is that black slaves were serving in various non-combat positions in the CSA Army, and while it's not ruled out that some saw combat, the only documented call for volunteers was shortly before the end of the war, answered by a small amount of slaves who never saw combat action.
Quote from: Syt on July 10, 2015, 11:11:26 PM
My understanding is that black slaves were serving in various non-combat positions in the CSA Army, and while it's not ruled out that some saw combat, the only documented call for volunteers was shortly before the end of the war, answered by a small amount of slaves who never saw combat action.
Your understanding is correct.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2015, 01:13:02 AM
You're understanding is correct.
Your usage of you're is despicable.
Calm you'reself.
Take a walk in Fukushima, Lettow.
Lettow has a point. Remember that Tim is an English teacher.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 11, 2015, 04:43:25 PM
Lettow has a point. Remember that Tim is an English teacher.
Tim is also well known to be a retarded fuckstick.
Quote from: PDH on July 12, 2015, 07:26:32 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 11, 2015, 04:43:25 PM
Lettow has a point. Remember that Tim is an English teacher.
Tim is also well known to be a retarded fuckstick.
Well, at least having a career in fuckstickery you get a lot of action.
Just fucking evil
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/charleston-massacre-dylann-roof-s-mom-had-heart-attack-during-n693776
QuoteCHARLESTON, S.C. — Dylann Roof's mother suffered a heart attack not long after prosecutors described how her son planned a cold and calculated killing of nine black church members in a racially motivated attack, his attorney said in court documents Thursday.
Roof's mother collapsed and said "I'm sorry" several times on Wednesday as family members and court security came to help her during the opening of her son's federal death penalty trial.
Roof's attorney mentioned the heart attack in court documents asking for a mistrial, saying a survivor's testimony was so emotional that "spectators and even court personnel — including members of the prosecution and defense — were crying with her."
The documents didn't give the mother's current condition.
...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dylann-roof-s-videotaped-confessions-stuns-courtroom-n694036
Quote
Dylann Roof's Videotaped Confession Stuns Courtroom
by Corky Siemaszko
Dylann Roof began his videotaped confession with 11 chilling words: "I went to that church in Charleston and I did it."
And then for the next two or three hours, the self-declared white supremacist described to the FBI how he gunned down nine black worshippers last year at a historic South Carolina church in a bid to spark a race war.
"What I did is still minuscule to what they're doing to white people every day," Roof insisted at one point.
The recording of Roof was played Friday for the jurors weighing the fate of the 22-year-old for the first time at his federal death penalty trial.
In the video, FBI agents could be seen reading Roof his rights and making sure he understood that he was giving a statement without a lawyer present.
Roof did not appear to be under the influence of anything when he made the statement following his arrest on June 18, 2015 in Shelby, North Carolina, FBI investigator Michael Stansbury testified.
And Roof was not sure how many people he killed at the Emanuel AME Church.
"Five, not really sure, " he said. "Maybe four?"
When asked if he said anything to the victims, Roof answered, "I didn't say anything to them before."
"It was very fast," he said on the video.
In a matter-of-fact tone, Roof told the FBI he researched his target and went on the killing spree because blacks were raping white women.
"I do consider myself a white supremacist," he admitted on the footage.
Roof also said he was "in absolute awe" that there were no police outside the church when he came out. He said he would have killed himself if there were.
In the course of the recorded conversation, Roof spoke about seeing a 1980's TV movie about a racist skinhead called "Made in Britain." And when asked if he regretted what he'd done, Roof said, "Yeah, I'd say so."
Told the death toll was actually nine people, Roof appeared to react with disbelief and then remorse. "Well, it makes me feel bad," he said, when asked how he felt.
"Are you guilty?" an FBI agent asked.
"Yes, I am guilty," Roof replied. "We all know I'm guilty."
Also entered into evidence was a journal found in the back of Roof's car.
"I was not raised in a racist home of environment," he wrote, referring to himself as Dylann Storm Roof.
But in there, Roof wrote that Florida security guard George Zimmerman was in the right when he fatally shot unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin and he disparaged African-Americans as "stupid and violent." The journal also contained Nazi swastikas and the white supremacist code numbers 14 and 88.
Sitting at the defense table, Roof did not look at Stansbury. But the wrenching footage is likely to ratchet-up the anguish at the already emotionally fraught trial.
On Wednesday, Roof's mother suffered a heart attack after prosecutors laid out for the court how her son plotted the murders of the black Bible study participants on June 17, 2015 in the fellowship hall of the Emanuel AME Church.
Before Stansbury took the stand, Roof's lawyer told U.S. Judge Richard Gergel they intend to present more evidence about his state of mind at the time of the shooting. They have not contested that Roof was responsible for the killing, but they are trying to save him from the death penalty.
So far Roof, who has admitted targeting the Charleston church, has barely uttered a word at his trial.
While the proceedings have been punctuated at times by the sobs of the victims' loved ones, Roof has sat stone-faced and has rarely looked at the people whose lives were torn apart by the massacre.
Until Wednesday, when Roof showed up in court wearing a gray sweater and slacks, the go-to getup for the admitted killer with the bowl haircut had been his striped jail jumpsuit.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 10, 2016, 03:40:34 AM
Roof's attorney mentioned the heart attack in court documents asking for a mistrial, saying a survivor's testimony was so emotional that "spectators and even court personnel — including members of the prosecution and defense — were crying with her."
I don't see how or why the fact that testimony was emotionally devastating would be grounds for a mistrial. Of course the testimony of a survivor of a mass killing is going to be gut-wrenching.
And I don't see how the perp's mother having a heart attack is relevant at all.
Quote from: dps on December 10, 2016, 05:39:53 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 10, 2016, 03:40:34 AM
Roof's attorney mentioned the heart attack in court documents asking for a mistrial, saying a survivor's testimony was so emotional that "spectators and even court personnel — including members of the prosecution and defense — were crying with her."
I don't see how or why the fact that testimony was emotionally devastating would be grounds for a mistrial. Of course the testimony of a survivor of a mass killing is going to be gut-wrenching.
And I don't see how the perp's mother having a heart attack is relevant at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx32b5igLwA
Quote from: dps on December 10, 2016, 05:39:53 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 10, 2016, 03:40:34 AM
Roof's attorney mentioned the heart attack in court documents asking for a mistrial, saying a survivor's testimony was so emotional that "spectators and even court personnel — including members of the prosecution and defense — were crying with her."
I don't see how or why the fact that testimony was emotionally devastating would be grounds for a mistrial. Of course the testimony of a survivor of a mass killing is going to be gut-wrenching.
And I don't see how the perp's mother having a heart attack is relevant at all.
there's a rule of evidence that you can't submit to the jury evidence that is really unfairly prejudicial. so, like, in an airplane crash case, probably no showing all the mangled, broken corpses for pure shock value.
the testimony here probably isn't implicated by that rule, but the defense doesn't have much to argue, so the attorney(s) were probably like, well, might as well try it.
Well, Trump did say he wanted to kill the family of terrorists, so this must be a scary time for Roof family.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 10, 2016, 11:37:32 AM
Well, Trump did say he wanted to kill the family of terrorists, so this must be a scary time for Roof family.
:lol: