Massacre at historic African American Church in Charleston

[derspiess]

I think you are wrong.

You usually do

And I think any possible other step I could contemplate will be dismissed out of hand just like this one was,

Not at all, man.  Go ahead.  Let's talk it over.  Together we can fix racism.

and just like people once dismissed the silly notion that making black people drink from different fountains could reduce racism.

Or sit at the back of the bus AMIRIGHT?

[derspiess]

How about we address what we can now, see how that plays out, then proceed?

Wouldn't bother me any, but it's not my call.  I don't live in a state where that stupid flag flies on state property.

[The Minsky Moment]

I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism.

It is an official expression of approval of, or identification with, a government founded on the principle of maintaining and protecting the institution of slavery. 

[Valmy]

If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time.  I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do.

I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism. 

The flag was proudly used as a symbol of the Lost Cause Redemption South that enforced Jim Crow, among other things, for over 100 years. They officially endorsed this flag as a symbol of the South's specific practices over and over again. If it is officially sanctioning racism it is only because it was officially used this way on a continual basis.

Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose.  But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement. That legacy needs to be rejected by these state governments, and for the most part, it has been.

[Berkut]

I think you are wrong.

You usually do

And I think any possible other step I could contemplate will be dismissed out of hand just like this one was,

Not at all, man.  Go ahead.  Let's talk it over.  Together we can fix racism.

If you dismiss this out of hand, even though you claim that you actually would support it's removal, I can't imagine any suggestion that you would approve of...

It almost makes your claim you don't approve it look rather odd. You would support removing it, and yet you insist that it cannot make any difference and attack the suggestion that it be removed. Very weird.

and just like people once dismissed the silly notion that making black people drink from different fountains could reduce racism.

Or sit at the back of the bus AMIRIGHT?

Indeed.

[Berkut]

If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time.  I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do.

I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism. 

The flag was proudly used as a symbol of the Lost Cause Redemption South that enforced Jim Crow, among other things, for over 100 years. They officially endorsed this flag as a symbol of the South's specific practices over and over again. If it is officially sanctioning racism it is only because it was officially used this way on a continual basis.

Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose.  But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement. That legacy needs to be rejected, and for the most part, it has been.

It is like someone going on about how a swastika can mean something other than Nazi's. Yeah, sure, it *can* in fact mean something else.

But we all know what it actually does mean.

[derspiess]

Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose.  But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement.

See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection. 

I'm with you guys in that I'd prefer the flag to be removed in state capitols where it flies, but I don't live there so I don't really get a vote either way.

[derspiess]

If you dismiss this out of hand, even though you claim that you actually would support it's removal, I can't imagine any suggestion that you would approve of...

Admit it, you just don't have anything.  Pretend I'm not here and tell everyone else what ideas you have.

It almost makes your claim you don't approve it look rather odd. You would support removing it, and yet you insist that it cannot make any difference and attack the suggestion that it be removed. Very weird.

I would support removing it because I don't like the symbol.  I just don't think doing so would have any real impact.

[Valmy]

See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection. 

I'm with you guys in that I'd prefer the flag to be removed in state capitols where it flies, but I don't live there so I don't really get a vote either way.

In Texas this conversation is just never had and we have never gotten to vote on it. It would be very divisive and embarrassing so best to hope it goes away on its own and very quietly stop using it. The original Six Flags had a big 'Confederate' section that just kind of went away for example.

Now I cannot speak for the other former confederate states but this is my impression of how it goes over there as well. Granted some of the states had the misfortune to be stuck with St. Andrew's Cross flags on their state flags.

I would support removing it because I don't like the symbol.  I just don't think doing so would have any real impact.

Well I disagree. When I was a kid the flag was all over the place. Now it is almost entirely gone. The impact seems very significant to me.

[derspiess]

Well I disagree. When I was a kid the flag was all over the place. Now it is almost entirely gone. The impact seems very significant to me.

Up in this area it seems fairly constant from what I saw as a kid.  I've lived in or very close to a border state all my life and it seems like it's a symbol some are clinging to.  I would have hoped it would die out in the border areas before anywhere else.

Most bizarre example I experienced was an ROTC buddy from Maryland who had significant Jewish (50%) and Filipino (25%) heritage but had the flag on a bumper sticker in his truck and loved him some country music.  I guess the redneck gene won out somehow.

[crazy canuck]

Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose.  But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement.

See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection. 

They may not.  But that is the thing about symbols - they can have a significant impact on people whether they are consciously aware of the impact or not.

[jimmy olsen]

If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time.  I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do.

I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism. 

The flag was proudly used as a symbol of the Lost Cause Redemption South that enforced Jim Crow, among other things, for over 100 years. They officially endorsed this flag as a symbol of the South's specific practices over and over again. If it is officially sanctioning racism it is only because it was officially used this way on a continual basis.

Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose.  But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement. That legacy needs to be rejected, and for the most part, it has been.

It is like someone going on about how a swastika can mean something other than Nazi's. Yeah, sure, it *can* in fact mean something else.

But we all know what it actually does mean.

Buddhism?

I see temples with it all the time.

[jimmy olsen]

Nikki Haley, with Graham and Scott by her side have called for the flag to be taken down!

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article25169761.html

[derspiess]

Graham

[Berkut]

Graham

Now that is something we can agree on!