Massacre at historic African American Church in Charleston

[LaCroix]

should a state remove an offensive flag from a capitol when the state did not intend for the flag to offend anyone? should an employer fire an employee over offensive comments when the employee did not intend for his comments to offend anyone? 

while i may not agree with ders here, i respect his consistency. 

[Berkut]

Jeb Bush Surprised How Easily Stance On Confederate Flag Set Him Apart From Other Republican Candidates
TALLAHASSEE, FL—Expressing satisfaction with the unexpected bump in his polling numbers, Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush confirmed Monday that he was astonished by how easily his stance on removing the Confederate flag from the South Carolina Capitol set him apart from the rest of the GOP field. "When I tweeted in support of taking down a widely recognized symbol of racism and white supremacy, I thought I'd fall pretty squarely in line with the other Republican candidates, but fortunately I was wrong," said Bush after competitors in the GOP primary race either refused to voice an opinion to avoid offending voters or suggested that the decision should fall to the state's lawmakers, establishing himself as the most sane member of the field "with pretty much zero effort." "All I had to do was offer a basic sentiment about how they should take down a flag widely considered to represent slavery and horrific racial oppression, and boom—suddenly I'm the only enlightened one in the group. I wish everything was this effortless." Bush reportedly expressed relief that he was able to stand out on the Confederate flag issue and wasn't forced to change his stance on climate change, abortion, taxes, immigration, the economy, foreign policy, budget spending, education reform, or national defense.

The Onion strikes again. They have gotten really, really good at this.

[sbr]

http://myfox8.com/2015/06/22/walmart-to-stop-selling-confederate-flag-merchandise/

Walmart to stop selling Confederate flag merchandise
POSTED 7:34 PM, JUNE 22, 2015, BY CNN WIRE

BENTONVILLE, Ark. — Walmart, the country's largest retailer, will remove all Confederate flag merchandise from its stores, the company said on Monday.

The announcement is the latest indication that the flag, a symbol of the slave-holding South, has become toxic in the aftermath of a shooting last week at a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina. Gov. Nikki Haley announced in a Monday afternoon news conference that she supports removing the Confederate flag from the state capitol grounds.

Walmart.com currently carries the Confederate flag as well as attire featuring the flag's design, such as T-shirts and belt buckles.

"We never want to offend anyone with the products that we offer. We have taken steps to remove all items promoting the confederate flag from our assortment — whether in our stores or on our web site," said Walmart spokesman Brian Nick. "We have a process in place to help lead us to the right decisions when it comes to the merchandise we sell. Still, at times, items make their way into our assortment improperly — this is one of those instances."

Walmart's statement came in response to a CNN inquiry Monday. In addition to Walmart, CNN asked Amazon and eBay whether they would remove Confederate flag merchandise from their sites. Neither company responded to repeated requests for comment.

The long-running debate over displaying the Confederate flag on government buildings took a swift turn after last week's massacre in Charleston, which left nine African-Americans dead in their church. The shooter, 21-year-old Dylann Roof, has confessed to the murders and has said he wanted to instigate a "race war."

One widely circulated photo of the shooter holding a gun and a Confederate flag has stirred intense outrage. Critics of the flag quickly called on South Carolina to take down what is widely viewed as a symbol of racism.

Amazon.com lists pages of Confederate flag-related merchandise, ranging from the flag itself to folding knives, T-shirts, blankets and even shower curtains.

eBay also carries the Confederate flag and accessories such as handbags and jewelry. The online auction site's "offensive material policy" bans the sale of items that "promote hatred or racial supremacy including historic and current items."

Haley on Monday declared it was time to remove the flag from the capitol grounds.

"This flag, while an integral part of our past, does not represent the future of our great state," the second-term governor said, in an announcement that drew thunderous applause and cheers.

Haley was surrounded by many of the state's elected officials, including Republican Sens. Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott, Democratic Rep. Jim Clyburn and Republican Rep. Mark Sanford.

Many of the 2016 GOP presidential candidates and likely candidates — including former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, former Texas Gov. Rick Perry and Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker — voiced their support for Haley's decision following her speech.

I just noticed the bolded line. 

[Valmy]

should a state remove an offensive flag from a capitol when the state did not intend for the flag to offend anyone?

Pretty sure when they raised this flag in Charleston Harbor they intended to offend somebody



Note: May be a romanticized painting and may never have happened.

[LaCroix]

i assume south carolina took down the reb flag after the war and reintroduced it some years later. 

[alfred russel]

See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection. 

I'm with you guys in that I'd prefer the flag to be removed in state capitols where it flies, but I don't live there so I don't really get a vote either way.

In Texas this conversation is just never had and we have never gotten to vote on it. It would be very divisive and embarrassing so best to hope it goes away on its own and very quietly stop using it. The original Six Flags had a big 'Confederate' section that just kind of went away for example.

Now I cannot speak for the other former confederate states but this is my impression of how it goes over there as well. Granted some of the states had the misfortune to be stuck with St. Andrew's Cross flags on their state flags.

I would support removing it because I don't like the symbol.  I just don't think doing so would have any real impact.

Well I disagree. When I was a kid the flag was all over the place. Now it is almost entirely gone. The impact seems very significant to me.

The perception of the flag has totally changed. When I was a kid it was everywhere. I'm sure people in the North and maybe parts of minority groups associated it with racism, but I don't think many people did. Going through a old high school yearbook, there was a picture of several black students playing cards with a confederate themed deck. No one thought anything of it.

That has totally stopped. A guy walked into my gym with a confederate flag shirt and I was like, "whoa, wtf" but 20 years ago no one would have batted an eye.

[The Brain]

If racism isn't officially sanctioned then one would hope one would see a reduction of racism over time.  I seem to have more faith in your countrymen than you do.

I disagree with your assumption that flying or displaying the flag = officially sanctioning racism. 

The flag was proudly used as a symbol of the Lost Cause Redemption South that enforced Jim Crow, among other things, for over 100 years. They officially endorsed this flag as a symbol of the South's specific practices over and over again. If it is officially sanctioning racism it is only because it was officially used this way on a continual basis.

Individuals may not be displaying the flag for that purpose.  But it was officially used by state governments in the south to make a very specific statement. That legacy needs to be rejected, and for the most part, it has been.

It is like someone going on about how a swastika can mean something other than Nazi's. Yeah, sure, it *can* in fact mean something else.

But we all know what it actually does mean.

Finnish armed forces?

[The Brain]

In Sweden the flag is used by some rural folk who drive 1950/60s American cars.

[jimmy olsen]

See, I don't think most pro-ConfedFlag people make that connection. 

I'm with you guys in that I'd prefer the flag to be removed in state capitols where it flies, but I don't live there so I don't really get a vote either way.

In Texas this conversation is just never had and we have never gotten to vote on it. It would be very divisive and embarrassing so best to hope it goes away on its own and very quietly stop using it. The original Six Flags had a big 'Confederate' section that just kind of went away for example.

Now I cannot speak for the other former confederate states but this is my impression of how it goes over there as well. Granted some of the states had the misfortune to be stuck with St. Andrew's Cross flags on their state flags.

I would support removing it because I don't like the symbol.  I just don't think doing so would have any real impact.

Well I disagree. When I was a kid the flag was all over the place. Now it is almost entirely gone. The impact seems very significant to me.

The perception of the flag has totally changed. When I was a kid it was everywhere. I'm sure people in the North and maybe parts of minority groups associated it with racism, but I don't think many people did. Going through a old high school yearbook, there was a picture of several black students playing cards with a confederate themed deck. No one thought anything of it.

That has totally stopped. A guy walked into my gym with a confederate flag shirt and I was like, "whoa, wtf" but 20 years ago no one would have batted an eye.

What do you attribute the change to?

Also, to all you other Southern folks on Languish, do you think Dorsey's anecdote is representative? 

[Syt]

Well, there was this popular TV show ...

[Valmy]

What do you attribute the change to?

Also, to all you other Southern folks on Languish, do you think Dorsey's anecdote is representative? 

Yes. Again it was everywhere before.

I think a huge factor has been the GI generation dying off. They were the ones whose Grandfathers were all Confederate vets. Back when they were still alive we couldn't be too mean about the Confederacy.

[Berkut]

What do you attribute the change to?

Also, to all you other Southern folks on Languish, do you think Dorsey's anecdote is representative? 

Yes. Again it was everywhere before.

The assumption here seems to be that since it was much more prevalent it wasn't really about racism.

There was something else much more prevalent in the South at that time as well - segregation.

I suggest that it being more prevalent is not evidence that the flag is not about racism, but rather exactly the opposite.

[Ed Anger]

I guess I won't be buying my confederate themed party supplies at Wally World anymore.

[Valmy]

In the 1980s? We still had school busing back then. I actually think segregation is more of a thing today than it was then.

I suggest that it being more prevalent is not evidence that the flag is not about racism, but rather exactly the opposite.

I don't think its prevalence means it wasn't about racism. I don't think we were suggesting that. It was prevalent because it always had been and it slowly and quietly went away. You can see why those carrying a flame for the flag are now starting to get more shrill. As far as I am concerned the only place I ever want to see a St. Andrew's cross Confederate Flag again is in a museum with other old relics.

[Valmy]

I guess I won't be buying my confederate themed party supplies at Wally World anymore.

General Lee's birthday just won't be the same.