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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 01:25:14 PM

Title: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 01:25:14 PM
Almost-official info regarding our new Constitution (you never know with these guys. They change their minds faster than it takes Tim to post a new thread)

-official name of the country will be "Magyarország" (Hungary) and not Magyar Köztársaság (Republic of Hungary) like it is now.
-indirectly, it will ban gay marriage, as it will define marriage as a thing between a mand and a woman (and something to be protected)
-it will limit the amount of loans the government can take, much like Poland does
-despite talks of the opposite, the limits on the Constitutional Court will remain. Basically they can't protest about anything but "human dignity" regarding new laws
-it will ban state contracts with offshore companies

As the comedy department, the Preambulum (is that also the english spelling?) will be renamed Statement of Faith or something like that, and it will begin like our anthem (which was a poem written 150 years ago, and pretended to quote a preacher from the 16th century): "God, bless the Hungarians"
And at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"


Ah, and a couple of weeks ago, a big announcement was made about a package of various reforms (austerity is a word to be avoided at all costs) which ended up being extremely lukewarm, and basically only contained loose deadlines for the various areas where spending cuts must be made.
But! The english release of the supposedly same plan contains much more detailed informations! The bastards think that in the age of the Internet they can feed totally diferent shit at home and abroad, and get away with it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 09, 2011, 01:27:52 PM
So Arabs have the balls to get rid of ridiculous regimes but Hungarians do not? :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 01:31:26 PM
Oh and an other hillarity which is an excellent showcase of how these guys operate.

The government proposed to rename our international airport, which is now called Ferihegy Airport ("Ferihegy" is the geopgraphical location of the airport).
They would rather want it be called "Budapest Ferenc Liszt International Airport"

There is a kind of state office or whatever which can throw back important place-namings such as this. They did just that with this, and said it should be "Ferenc Liszt International Airport, Ferihegy Budapest".

The government's answer: they will reduce the office's headcount and curb their rights.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: DGuller on March 09, 2011, 01:37:48 PM
Hungarian people are not ready for democracy.  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on March 09, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 01:25:14 PM
-official name of the country will be "Magyarország" (Hungary) and not Magyar Köztársaság (Republic of Hungary) like it is now.

The hapsburgs must be creaming their pants as we speak.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
Was the ban on gay marriage some sort of concession to the religious people in the country?  I wasn't aware Hungarians were religious in any great degree anymore.  Not like the Poles, at least.

And it's "preamble."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
Was the ban on gay marriage some sort of concession to the religious people in the country?  I wasn't aware Hungarians were religious in any great degree anymore.  Not like the Poles, at least.

And it's "preamble."

Ah, preamble, right.

Well I honestly cant tell the impact of religiousness, because it has roughly the same symptoms as general ignorance and vulnerability to blatant populism, which we have in spades. So its hard to see how much of the plebs is actually religious.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 09, 2011, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 09, 2011, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
Was the ban on gay marriage some sort of concession to the religious people in the country?  I wasn't aware Hungarians were religious in any great degree anymore.  Not like the Poles, at least.

And it's "preamble."

Ah, preamble, right.

Well I honestly cant tell the impact of religiousness, because it has roughly the same symptoms as general ignorance and vulnerability to blatant populism, which we have in spades. So its hard to see how much of the plebs is actually religious.

if that court can deal with thingies infringing on human dignity in new laws, and since the outlawing (even indirect) of gay marriage would be new laws maybe the court should go there and deal with it. See what the goverment does. if they act in the way we'd expect them to act you can expect another EU-wide stink.
Soon enough Hungary will be like Kazynski-poland: a smelly turd.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 03:04:38 PM
I guess I don't get how they would be anti-gay marriage, yet not religious.  Is it just a macho "we hate fags" kind of thing that isn't a religious imperative?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:23:20 PM
Doesn't Hungary already have gay civil unions, though? So will this be affected or is this more like "ok, we did that but that's as far as we are willing to move"?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:24:17 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 03:04:38 PM
I guess I don't get how they would be anti-gay marriage, yet not religious.  Is it just a macho "we hate fags" kind of thing that isn't a religious imperative?

Nazis and communists weren't big on homosexuality either. It's something to do with precious bodily fluids and whatnot. It's a pretty common stance to take for nationalist regimes (and Hungary is one).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: DontSayBanana on March 09, 2011, 06:24:43 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 09, 2011, 02:22:24 PM
if that court can deal with thingies infringing on human dignity in new laws, and since the outlawing (even indirect) of gay marriage would be new laws maybe the court should go there and deal with it. See what the goverment does. if they act in the way we'd expect them to act you can expect another EU-wide stink.
Soon enough Hungary will be like Kazynski-poland: a smelly turd.

What do you mean, "will be?" :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:27:11 PM
Quote-it will ban state contracts with offshore companies

What do they mean by that? Do they mean like tax havens or any company that is not incorporated in Hungary? If the latter, it's not only ridiculous but illegal under EU laws.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on March 09, 2011, 06:38:49 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D

Cripplefight!!!!!1111111oneoeneoneoe
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 06:43:48 PM
Why would Hungary release its internal government stuff in English?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 09, 2011, 08:39:51 PM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 06:43:48 PM
Why would Hungary release its internal government stuff in English?
Because investors speak English, and Hungary is utterly dependent on foreign cash.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 09, 2011, 08:43:04 PM
I figured it was something like that, or some sort of EU requirement.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 09, 2011, 08:48:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
You can't get kicked out of the EU, or else it would already have happened.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 10, 2011, 02:32:38 AM
Quote from: Neil on March 09, 2011, 08:48:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
You can't get kicked out of the EU, or else it would already have happened.

You can under Lisbon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 10, 2011, 02:39:42 AM
What do you have to do to get kicked out?  Genocide?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Slargos on March 10, 2011, 02:55:10 AM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 10, 2011, 02:39:42 AM
What do you have to do to get kicked out?  Genocide?

Elect the "wrong" political party.

As for the topic, I don't see the problem with legislating what is in essence a moral and good position. We should not be afraid of morality legislation as long as we aren't satanists and criminals.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: JonasSalk on March 10, 2011, 03:15:25 AM
Quote from: Slargos on March 10, 2011, 02:55:10 AM
Quote from: JonasSalk on March 10, 2011, 02:39:42 AM
What do you have to do to get kicked out?  Genocide?

Elect the "wrong" political party.

Jobbik?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Slargos on March 10, 2011, 03:17:55 AM
Haider.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 10, 2011, 09:02:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 10, 2011, 02:32:38 AM
Quote from: Neil on March 09, 2011, 08:48:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
You can't get kicked out of the EU, or else it would already have happened.
You can under Lisbon.
What's the mechanism then?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Josquius on March 10, 2011, 09:30:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 09, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
QuoteAnd at various places the draft contains stuff like "protection of the Hungarian language" "importance of sports" and "avoidance of foreign words"

Your country is like Europe's Turkmenistan. I hope you get kicked out of the EU. :D
That sounds more :frog: to me.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 16, 2011, 08:07:51 AM
Oh and other people seem to have heard what I did but could not believe: the PM said (IIRC after dissing the EU as an oppressive organization that "they (not-defined foreigners who "disrespect" us) should give us respect, because nazism and communism was not invented by Hungarians!"

Can you figure out, which country he meant? :P

If he wasnt my country's PM, I would find this awesomely funny.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 16, 2011, 08:15:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.
Calling the Hungarian Prime Minister the leader of the EU is overstating matters just a bit, don't you think?  Even if he holds the presidency, no one would ever follow him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 16, 2011, 08:58:36 AM
Quote from: Neil on March 16, 2011, 08:15:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.
Calling the Hungarian Prime Minister the leader of the EU is overstating matters just a bit, don't you think?  Even if he holds the presidency, no one would ever follow him.

But nominally he does hold the presidency.

This is the same as if Languish admins would be happily trolling away random shit in the threads.

Oh wait...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on March 16, 2011, 02:09:30 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 16, 2011, 08:07:51 AM
Oh and other people seem to have heard what I did but could not believe: the PM said (IIRC after dissing the EU as an oppressive organization that "they (not-defined foreigners who "disrespect" us) should give us respect, because nazism and communism was not invented by Hungarians!"

Can you figure out, which country he meant? :P

If he wasnt my country's PM, I would find this awesomely funny.

What is crazy isn't so much that he is the EU president, but that in 40 years when Hungary is dragged into the 1st world by the EU, anyone who digs through old quotes like this is going to think he was insane.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 16, 2011, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.

Hungary applied and was granted admission into the Austrian and Soviet empires?  That was generous of Vienna and Moscow to let them in.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on March 16, 2011, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 16, 2011, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
It's just fucking priceless, when -as part of his speech to a huge crowd on our national holiday about the start of our 1848 extravaganza- the Prime Minister, curent leader of the EU, draws a connection between the Vienna of 1848 times, Moscow of Soviet fame, and Brussels of present.

Hungary applied and was granted admission into the Austrian and Soviet empires?  That was generous of Vienna and Moscow to let them in.

It kind of did, actually--especially the austrian one.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on March 17, 2011, 04:30:28 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 16, 2011, 02:25:58 PM

It kind of did, actually--especially the austrian one.

I think I was getting Hungary confused with Romania at the end of WWII.  :blush:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 17, 2011, 10:06:03 AM
lol, more embarassing trivia from our national  holiday.

The actual historical day's focal point was a young poet, Petofi, who was quite a liberal guy. He was already a known poet back then but raised to total fame on the 15th of March 1848, as he mobilized the youth of Budapest that day to rise up.

So anyway, he wrote a somewhat lengty poem the next day, praising the results of their revolution.
As part of the official celebration this Tuesday, this poem was performed by a woman.

Except that, she left out about third of the poem. Surprise surprise, that part was the fanboyish happy ravings over the importance of the censorship-free press they achieved, plus the closing part mentioning Napoleon's glory (as a thing to be not favorized over the prior day's glory)

Seriously. They thought nobody would notice? That they censor the iconic poet of the event in question? That they leave out the part which would remind the auidence of their epic fail with their dictatorial media law?
They really failed to see the irony in celebrating the short-lived victory of liberal freedoms, by censoring the very people they pretended to idolize?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 17, 2011, 02:13:51 PM
That's tragic and comic in about equal measures.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 17, 2011, 02:25:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 17, 2011, 10:06:03 AM
Seriously. They thought nobody would notice? That they censor the iconic poet of the event in question? That they leave out the part which would remind the auidence of their epic fail with their dictatorial media law?
They really failed to see the irony in celebrating the short-lived victory of liberal freedoms, by censoring the very people they pretended to idolize?

Communist states did stuff like that all the time during the Soviet Empire.  I remember the East German being arrested for quoting Rosa Luxemburg in Luxemburg square...he had a sign saying "freedom is the freedom to dissent" or something similar.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on March 17, 2011, 02:49:31 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 17, 2011, 10:06:03 AM
lol, more embarassing trivia from our national  holiday.

The actual historical day's focal point was a young poet, Petofi, who was quite a liberal guy. He was already a known poet back then but raised to total fame on the 15th of March 1848, as he mobilized the youth of Budapest that day to rise up.

So anyway, he wrote a somewhat lengty poem the next day, praising the results of their revolution.
As part of the official celebration this Tuesday, this poem was performed by a woman.

Except that, she left out about third of the poem. Surprise surprise, that part was the fanboyish happy ravings over the importance of the censorship-free press they achieved, plus the closing part mentioning Napoleon's glory (as a thing to be not favorized over the prior day's glory)

Seriously. They thought nobody would notice? That they censor the iconic poet of the event in question? That they leave out the part which would remind the auidence of their epic fail with their dictatorial media law?
They really failed to see the irony in celebrating the short-lived victory of liberal freedoms, by censoring the very people they pretended to idolize?
Heh... I'm half expecting one of the next national rebellions to occur in Hungary! After all your nation went through dealing with, and against, Communist Totalitarianism, I'd expect higher expectations and loftier goals than this mess your politicians are putting you into.    :bowler:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 17, 2011, 03:04:14 PM
I found out recently that the Hungarian Fahdiz party is allied with the GOP.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2011, 07:21:28 AM
The planned new constitution will be presented to the EU today.

But they still try the old trick: they left out the less EU-friendly parts from the translation (like giving voting rights for the Hungarians living accross the border, or lifelong prison sentences), and they completely left out the preamble with those ridicoulous archaic shits in it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 30, 2011, 02:10:58 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 17, 2011, 02:25:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 17, 2011, 10:06:03 AM
Seriously. They thought nobody would notice? That they censor the iconic poet of the event in question? That they leave out the part which would remind the auidence of their epic fail with their dictatorial media law?
They really failed to see the irony in celebrating the short-lived victory of liberal freedoms, by censoring the very people they pretended to idolize?

Communist states did stuff like that all the time during the Soviet Empire.  I remember the East German being arrested for quoting Rosa Luxemburg in Luxemburg square...he had a sign saying "freedom is the freedom to dissent" or something similar.

The difference is communist states had much better (and usable) repression apparatus and the ultimate threat of Soviet intervention if people got too uppity.

In countries like Hungary (or Poland under PiS) that are part of the EU, with people having access to the internet and being able to travel freely abroad, such attempts are a temporary annoyance that look rather farcical in retrospect.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 30, 2011, 02:30:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 29, 2011, 07:21:28 AM
The planned new constitution will be presented to the EU today.

But they still try the old trick: they left out the less EU-friendly parts from the translation (like giving voting rights for the Hungarians living accross the border, or lifelong prison sentences), and they completely left out the preamble with those ridicoulous archaic shits in it.

Does that really work? Will no one they're presenting it to get their own translation done?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 02:31:48 AM
Quote from: Jacob on March 30, 2011, 02:30:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 29, 2011, 07:21:28 AM
The planned new constitution will be presented to the EU today.

But they still try the old trick: they left out the less EU-friendly parts from the translation (like giving voting rights for the Hungarians living accross the border, or lifelong prison sentences), and they completely left out the preamble with those ridicoulous archaic shits in it.

Does that really work? Will no one they're presenting it to get their own translation done?
Thats what makes it exceptionally stupid
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
A fresh modification-proposal to the new constitution would have the Constitutional Court work based on not just the constitution, but also on the so called "cornerstone laws" ie. the laws needing 2/3rd majority.

In other words, the new way is: 2/3rd laws = articles of the constitution

There is one immedaite reason we know why this is needed: a new religion law is in works which will stop the equailty between churches, and favourize the historical religions in regards to state funds, and would make the creation of new religions (which was of course a great, great tax evasion tool, so its not just negative) much much harder.

But needless to say a lof of the country's life is / will be handled by 2/3rd laws, basically rendering the Const. Court entirely meaningless and devoid of any power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Liep on March 30, 2011, 06:20:35 AM
I will be going to Budapest in about two weeks.. will I be: safe?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:35:08 AM
Quote from: Liep on March 30, 2011, 06:20:35 AM
I will be going to Budapest in about two weeks.. will I be: safe?

:lol:

Sure. I dont expect riots to begin for several years at least
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: DGuller on March 30, 2011, 08:22:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:35:08 AM
Quote from: Liep on March 30, 2011, 06:20:35 AM
I will be going to Budapest in about two weeks.. will I be: safe?

:lol:

Sure. I dont expect riots to begin for several years at least
What about summary executions?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 31, 2011, 10:23:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
and favourize the historical religions

Like Islam?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 31, 2011, 11:17:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 31, 2011, 10:23:18 AM
Like Islam?

History starts in 1699.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 08, 2011, 02:25:42 AM
After all this it should come as no surprise that the state news agency has been pulled under tight control by the governing forces, several months ago.

They did sink to a new low just recently, however.

The major voice of criticism toward Orban and his medieval laws in the EU has been Daniel Cohn-Bendit, the green leftie guy.

Apparently, a decade ago they tried to finish him off with accusations of pedophilia due to his book written in 1975.

To "counter"  his current criticism, this accusation has been brought back by government circles. Well, and of course, "Cohn" is as jew-sounding as you can get around here, so its not like he is not an easy target for populist dismissal.

So, this guy was on a press conference last Friday. If you watched the state TV's news about that, you could see that their reporter asked him about the pedophile charges, then Cohn Bendit immediately rushed out of the conference.

However, if you watch the full footage of the conference, you can see that he did answer the question (condemning the practice of digging this decade-old shit out to discredit him), and then HALF AN HOUR LATER, he ends the press conference to reac his plane, not giving time for the Hungarian state-TV reporter to ask him about the media law - condemning EP decision.

Not only censorship, but manipulating the video feed. Damn.

BTW, apparently (I did not hear it), the initial news about this Cohn fellow was so offensive in the state radio (about a month ago) that they had it read out by a trainee, because none of the regulars agreed to read it. About the same time, a long time news anchor left the state TV, my guess is that the two are related.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on April 08, 2011, 05:16:36 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 31, 2011, 10:23:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 30, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
and favourize the historical religions

Like Islam?

Islam is history indeed :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 08:45:03 AM
There are two kinds of payments into the pension system in Hungary.

10% goes off your nominal wage. And your employer also pays 24% of your nominal wage (but not deducting this from it - in practice, little difference it makes of course. It still counts to the money you cost to your employer, yet you never see a dime from it).
Before this year, the 10% went to your private fund, the 24% went to the state fund, and you would have received pension from both.


At the very start of this year, the little more the active workforce of 3 million people, including me, faced the government's threat: you either go back to the state pension entirely, or if you stay private, you would still have your employer pay the 24%, but you would not receive the right for a state pension payment for it.

Only a hundred thousand of us called the obvious bluff and stayed. It was obvious because the present pension system has been an enormous strain on the state, on the long run it was bound to change.

Altough not yet voted on, the plan for this change has been leaked:
Instead of sinking your 10%+24% into the black void of the gross pension budget, everyone will get an individual account (you already had that on your private fund account, obviously). But, only the payments of the 10% will be registered there. The 24% will go to financing of the existing pensions, or whatever the rap is.
And your pension will be determined by the amount of money on this account, and your age and stuff.

In other words, it will be EXACTLY the setup they threatened us with, EXCEPT that there is no talk of interest, like you had with your private fund account (and it was pretty sweet, too).


What can I say to the 3 million poor bastards who were bullied into folding their hand?  :nelson:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on July 04, 2011, 09:27:54 AM
I believe that if our government ever tried to touch my savings/retirement plan via any other method than inflation, I would resort to not-quite-legal activities.

I am amazed and disappointed that Hungary isn't up in arms about this stuff.  Then I remember they voted for this.

What's Fidesz's approval?  80%?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 09:34:09 AM
Less than 50% nowadays.

And sadly the public's take on private property is a bit odd even by European standards.  :hmm:

But the general sentiment regarding the pension nationalization scheme was "I don't want this, but they will take away 2/3rd of my pension payment if I don't do it". And of course they will end up with the 2/3rd taken regardless.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 11:47:24 AM
Is there some transition date in the future, when your payout wll be determined solely by your 10% contribution?

I ask because there are presumably current retirees who are getting more; otherwise there would be nothing for the 24% to finance.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 01:56:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 11:47:24 AM
Is there some transition date in the future, when your payout wll be determined solely by your 10% contribution?

I ask because there are presumably current retirees who are getting more; otherwise there would be nothing for the 24% to finance.

Well, I am not sure where they will draw the transition line, but there will be plenty to finance from that 24%: the people already on various forms of pensions. That's quite a lot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 03:40:35 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 08:45:03 AM
There are two kinds of payments into the pension system in Hungary.

10% goes off your nominal wage. And your employer also pays 24% of your nominal wage (but not deducting this from it - in practice, little difference it makes of course. It still counts to the money you cost to your employer, yet you never see a dime from it).
Before this year, the 10% went to your private fund, the 24% went to the state fund, and you would have received pension from both.


At the very start of this year, the little more the active workforce of 3 million people, including me, faced the government's threat: you either go back to the state pension entirely, or if you stay private, you would still have your employer pay the 24%, but you would not receive the right for a state pension payment for it.

Only a hundred thousand of us called the obvious bluff and stayed. It was obvious because the present pension system has been an enormous strain on the state, on the long run it was bound to change.

Altough not yet voted on, the plan for this change has been leaked:
Instead of sinking your 10%+24% into the black void of the gross pension budget, everyone will get an individual account (you already had that on your private fund account, obviously). But, only the payments of the 10% will be registered there. The 24% will go to financing of the existing pensions, or whatever the rap is.
And your pension will be determined by the amount of money on this account, and your age and stuff.

In other words, it will be EXACTLY the setup they threatened us with, EXCEPT that there is no talk of interest, like you had with your private fund account (and it was pretty sweet, too).


What can I say to the 3 million poor bastards who were bullied into folding their hand?  :nelson:

Why is the pension system so stretched? In the US, the taxes are something like 6.2% by the employee and 6.2% by the employer. I'm guessing the benefits are relatively generous relative to what you paid in?

I'm also not sure why you won't get a state pension. If your 24% are going to the current retirees, when you retire couldn't you draw on the 24% being paid by current workers?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 04:12:12 PM
It looks like they might be trying to transition to a Chilean-style quasi-private pension.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 04, 2011, 04:14:42 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 03:40:35 PM
Why is the pension system so stretched? In the US, the taxes are something like 6.2% by the employee and 6.2% by the employer. I'm guessing the benefits are relatively generous relative to what you paid in?

I'm also not sure why you won't get a state pension. If your 24% are going to the current retirees, when you retire couldn't you draw on the 24% being paid by current workers?


Well first of all, the current demographic trend of the country is just disastrous, and our equivalent of the Baby Boomers (a few years later generation in our case) is yet to hit retirement age.

Yes, also the pension system has been somewhat generous, but only in the light that AFAIK the communist government(s) just pissed the pension payments of their time away merrily like they did with every other penny the could find, so by all intents and purposes the democratic governments took over a pension system which was already running but from general state budget.

And ever since the pension budget has been a great tool to buy votes. We had a 13th month pension going for many years, and in the 2006 campaign there were actual debates between the parties on a 14th month pension payment as well, whereas in fact the 13th one alone made the whole thing leak money all over the place.

And moreover, in the early 90s, it seemed like a grand idea to "evacuate" a lot of jobless people into "disability pensions", which has stayed to be a reliable escape route for many citizens who saw no hope for reentering the job market. A bribe to the local doctor and you were set for a reduced pension until you reached retirement age.

The current government, to their credit, is trying to stop this practice.

And of course there is the matter of policemen, firefighters, soldiers, miners, and some other professions getting early full retirement.
There has been a lot of debate lately about these, after the government announced that they would just basically stop paying this to current and future (early-)retiree policemen and firefighters.
IIRC they eased up a bit following repeated demonstrations, but the principle remains the same.

And I can't really blame them, the current system has to go sooner or later. But their communication has been abysmal, and their approach haphazard and cruel.


So actually, all things considered, if what I told in my post will indeed be the new plan for pensions, it will be a surprisingly honest move from this government. They could postpone this stuff well after the next election. Maybe they are sure they will stay long enough to see such a draconian system pay off.

However, thinking about it, I do have some concern. You see, the plan says that people who went back to the state system will have their former private balance credited to their brand new individual state account. That's nice, except that (insane amount) of money is being spent away like there is no tomorrow.
So in a way the government WILL postpone this problem for decades, when the current converts to the state system will be pensioners and will be supposed to get their pension from a pile of money that was spent in the early 2010s.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 04:30:00 PM
Tamas, so it sounds as though the 24% is just going to become another part of tax revenues (used in the short term to cover the current pension system)? You would think that by the time you retire most of the current pensioners would be dead and you could receive a pension from the 24%.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 04:12:12 PM
It looks like they might be trying to transition to a Chilean-style quasi-private pension.

Tamas, is this right? You will now only get that 10% which you put in, which you can manage to some degree?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 04, 2011, 04:32:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 11:47:24 AM
Is there some transition date in the future, when your payout wll be determined solely by your 10% contribution?

I ask because there are presumably current retirees who are getting more; otherwise there would be nothing for the 24% to finance.

You have to remember that most Eastern Bloc countries have pretty much bankrupt pension systems for people who worked most of their lives through the communist era.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 05, 2011, 01:41:49 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 04:12:12 PM
It looks like they might be trying to transition to a Chilean-style quasi-private pension.

Tamas, is this right? You will now only get that 10% which you put in, which you can manage to some degree?

You have had some control over your account in the private funds. Namely you could choose, each year, between a conservative, an intermediate, and a "growth" portfolio. Even the latter had to have like 30% of it's money in Hungarian state bonds though. But I have been in it of course and it's been rather nice.

There is no talk of anything like that for the new state pension system. What we know right now is that they'll just sit on the money as it will pile up. My guess is that of course they will buy their own bonds with it though, so they can use it, and shield the gathering funds from inflation.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 05, 2011, 01:46:54 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2011, 04:30:00 PM
Tamas, so it sounds as though the 24% is just going to become another part of tax revenues (used in the short term to cover the current pension system)? You would think that by the time you retire most of the current pensioners would be dead and you could receive a pension from the 24%.

Yes, the 24% appears to become just an other tax revenue. Well, actually, this proposed plan calls for attempting to switch 10% of it to the pension payment done by the individual taxpayer (so eventually they would want to have 20% payment into one's pension account, and 14% into the big void of the budget), but it was described only as a possibility.

As for the dead pensioners, IIRC current trend is that there will be about 3 inactives to be supported by each active by the time I get old.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 05, 2011, 01:48:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 04, 2011, 04:32:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2011, 11:47:24 AM
Is there some transition date in the future, when your payout wll be determined solely by your 10% contribution?

I ask because there are presumably current retirees who are getting more; otherwise there would be nothing for the 24% to finance.

You have to remember that most Eastern Bloc countries have pretty much bankrupt pension systems for people who worked most of their lives through the communist era.

Yeah I mentioned this also. The payments toward pension in the communist era were spent on normal budgetary expenses. Yay worker's paradise!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 05, 2011, 02:07:10 AM
In other news, it was promised that punishments according to the new media law would only start from 1st of July, and the authority promptly launched an investigation of the homepage of the most vicious (and dumb) leftie newspaper, because "a citizen" filed a complaint because of a blog comment insulting the President.

While since then a dignitary from the authority stated that they have no right to sanction such comments, almost all the major political blogs I have been following have disabled their comment sections, replacing it with a facebook link, to force conversations there.

Great.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 08:20:33 AM
Last 16 months, until yesterday, Hungarian government: "IMF is the evöl! We have conducted successful freedom fight, IMF is out of the country! We are teh radical revolutionizers of modern economics. We need no leeching IMF bankers"

Last two weeks: two bond-sale fails completely. No buyers. The sale on this week was "successful" Some were bought on 8% interest.

Yesterday afternoon, Finance Minister: "we are making a deal with the IMF"
Later that afternoon, IMF: "uhm, what? We have a bunch of guys in there right now but they are not deal-makers. But okay, we will send some negotiators over to see what's up"
This morning, government: "the deal will be signed start of next year, the EU will also be involved in it"
This morning, EU: "say what?"

Not sure if I should laugh or cry.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 18, 2011, 09:07:25 AM
:console: Is the opposition getting their act together at least?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 09:10:04 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2011, 09:07:25 AM
:console: Is the opposition getting their act together at least?

No, the controversial former socialist PM, Gyurcsany, seceded and formed his own miniscule party from other defectors. The government cockblocked these MPs from forming a new faction in Parlaiment though so that cuts back on their frontpage time. Too bad, because while no saints or saviors, they have at least left behind the fuckin' Old Guard of the communist era in their original party.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 18, 2011, 09:21:06 AM
Will Fidesz at least lose their majority? Coalition could be good for them.

I've always kind of liked what I've read about Gyurcsany, even the lying comment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on November 18, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 09:10:04 AM
Too bad, because while no saints or saviors, they have at least left behind the fuckin' Old Guard of the communist era in their original party.

It has been 22 years.  That Old Guard must really be old now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 10:02:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 18, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 09:10:04 AM
Too bad, because while no saints or saviors, they have at least left behind the fuckin' Old Guard of the communist era in their original party.

It has been 22 years.  That Old Guard must really be old now.

ok, the  current ones werent first line then, but they have their philosophy in conducting politics.

And no, Fidesz still has 2/3rd and I can't see anything sort of a revolution taking that from them.

I kinda liked Gyurcsany too but instead of leaving when even his own party blocked him, he instead retreated from the reform attempts and tried to buy off said old guard. Fuck that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 12:18:21 PM
I think what describes the country's mood is that I hear about, and know, more and more people who go abroad.

Sure, due to my work and hobbies I know mostly people who speak at lest English in some level, but the rising trend cannot be ignored.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PDH on November 18, 2011, 01:28:20 PM
Even the beets can't keep them at home :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 18, 2011, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: PDH on November 18, 2011, 01:28:20 PM
Even the beets can't keep them at home :(

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.blogter.hu%2Fuser_files%2F195083%2Fthe_dark_knight_joker.jpg&hash=cc814c374090530ee7ec4f6a332b9cbe41e4b97f)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 06:14:42 AM
Moody's has downgraded Hungary to junk.

Beside them being quite late, as I did that around 3 years ago, our government was not slow to again make a fool out of itself itnernationally, expressing "confusion" since "the economy has been performing great" and thus they can only "regard the downgrade as part of the speculative attacks against Hungary".

And that comes from yesterday, when the Finance Ministry announced they would handle the dismal state of our currency as a matter of national security, intend to "Investigate" who or what is responsible for "the selling".

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.cheezburger.com%2Fcompletestore%2F2010%2F5%2F26%2F129193762900667636.jpg&hash=1be23783a9754aeec94147aa32d26ef86a92d4ee)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 25, 2011, 06:40:50 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 06:14:42 AMBeside them being quite late, as I did that around 3 years ago, our government was not slow to again make a fool out of itself itnernationally, expressing "confusion" since "the economy has been performing great" and thus they can only "regard the downgrade as part of the speculative attacks against Hungary".
...Wow :console: :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 25, 2011, 06:42:22 AM
Where do I sign up for the attack on Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 08:04:51 AM
Damn you Fahdiz!  Why did you do this to Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on November 25, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Hungary's self-destruction was earned by their behavior towards the overlordship of the Austrians.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 25, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Hungary's self-destruction was earned by their behavior towards the overlordship of the Austrians.

I thought the Hungarians were pro-Empire for the most part.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 09:22:07 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 25, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Hungary's self-destruction was earned by their behavior towards the overlordship of the Austrians.

I thought the Hungarians were pro-Empire for the most part.

for the last 50 years part, yes. The 500 before that? Not so much.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on November 25, 2011, 09:30:45 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 25, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Hungary's self-destruction was earned by their behavior towards the overlordship of the Austrians.
I thought the Hungarians were pro-Empire for the most part.
They were pro-Kingdom of Hungary, which is a little different.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 25, 2011, 09:35:21 AM
The Austrian thing is kinda complicated.  I think you guys could forgive me for not fully understanding it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on November 25, 2011, 10:31:22 AM
I heartily recommend people watch "Radetzky March" (the b/w movie, not the newer one) if you want to watch the true swan song of the Habsburg empire.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 25, 2011, 11:16:45 AM
Swan song?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on November 25, 2011, 12:57:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks...

What's wrong with paprika?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.

:rolleyes: I have been thinking that Poland has been too good to be true. I wonder if there will be skeletons falling out of the closet soon. But for sure, Poland is far from being as fucked up as Hungary is.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 02:03:59 PM
The PM, to showcase his concern and love no doubt, called a meeting with economists friendly to him, which was held this afternoon.

The Finance Minister held a press conference to brief the press on it. His main points were:
-A new "growth plan" is needed, as well as cooperation with the IM and the EU
-GDP growth forecast to next year must be lowered to 0.5-1%

He choosed to ignore the trivial topic of Moody's downgrade, but of course he was asked about it.
He replied that the experts agreed that the "fundamentals are strong" and "something was behind this downgrade" and "there are maneuvers against the country".
Which is of course -in his opinion- completely unfair since the government has kept, and will keep, the country among the best.
On a repeated question he confirmed: "we are well above average"

The "new growth plan" was mentioned as a new idea here, altough this was a rhetoric of the PM in London, two weeks ago. The grand plan is that this new plan shall keep us ahead of the EU average in terms of growth. I guess we will resurrect Stanahov's spirit or something.

He also calls for a "new alliance" between the government and the banks in the country. I wonder what that means. They have been screwing the banks over left and right, to the extent that the people I talk to are starting to be reluctant and wary of keeping their savings in banks.

And they still keep to the story that they are negotiating with the IMF for a loan they will never ever actually take. They just want a "safety net" and "will be able to finance the country from the market". Said market traded the hungarian bonds on 9-10% this morning.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 03:19:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.

:rolleyes: I have been thinking that Poland has been too good to be true. I wonder if there will be skeletons falling out of the closet soon. But for sure, Poland is far from being as fucked up as Hungary is.

Actually I think S&P said they may upgrade our rating if we pull off the promised cuts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 04:03:49 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 03:19:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.

:rolleyes: I have been thinking that Poland has been too good to be true. I wonder if there will be skeletons falling out of the closet soon. But for sure, Poland is far from being as fucked up as Hungary is.

Actually I think S&P said they may upgrade our rating if we pull off the promised cuts.

If I tried hard enough, I bet I could get a position in my comp's Polish office  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on November 25, 2011, 04:05:50 PM
Fleeing to Poland for the good life?

Times are hard  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 26, 2011, 05:06:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 04:03:49 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 03:19:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 25, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 25, 2011, 12:51:35 PM
Great. Again, the paprika-devouring, antisemitic, racist, homophobic, goat-fucking racist fucks cause turmoil in the area and zloty to plummet.

Fuck you, you tards. Get out of the EU.

:rolleyes: I have been thinking that Poland has been too good to be true. I wonder if there will be skeletons falling out of the closet soon. But for sure, Poland is far from being as fucked up as Hungary is.

Actually I think S&P said they may upgrade our rating if we pull off the promised cuts.

If I tried hard enough, I bet I could get a position in my comp's Polish office  :hmm:

bring beets ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 27, 2011, 04:56:07 AM
Actually, we may experience a slump in 2012 (perhaps not an outright recession, but definitely a slow down of growth). The zloty is weakened because of the euro turmoil, and we will suffer if Germany (our chief customer) reduces consumption.

The old/new government is promising far reaching reforms but it's about to be seen how much they will deliver.

At least the M&A market is busy for now as many international financial institutions are forced to sell their Polish subsidiaries (which are frequently in much better position than their parents) to finance the bailouts they received. :shifty:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 08, 2011, 04:55:24 AM
Breaking: it was thought that the Minister of National Development would have a press conference about the initial stages of our negotiations with the IMF which he was appointed to lead, but instead he announced his resignation.
Not good.

IIRC, two days ago he made a comment on the "irresponsible" declarations from the Finance Minister (who is a bafoon and is ruining the country with his inept dumbass assfuckery). So I guess that was enough to force him out of office. The FM is so high up the PM's ass you can't even see the guy. So far, everybody who said a non-positive word about him somewhere were fired.

EDIT: apparently, he will keep his role as lead negotiator with the IMF.  :wacko:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 16, 2011, 03:27:23 AM
Let's recap the pension situation quickly:

A year ago, the government decided that all payments toward the private pension accounts would be transferred to the state budget instead, for 14 months A few weeks later, they presented the people with a coercion:
they can "protect their pension" by "returning to the safe state pension system". Or, they are free to stay in the private pension scheme, but then while their employers would keep paying the equivalent of 24% of their wage to the state pension system like they always did, they would not receive a single penny of pension from the state after that, since they would "remove themselves from national solidarity"

Out of the 3 million private pension payers, a whooping hundred thousand remained in the private system, including me. But of course my account gained no new funds as all of it was sent to the budget. I supposedly got one year worth of "service time" out of it, but that's totally useless unless I have at least 20. The accumulation of this service time after my 24% is what have been removed from me by the way, as punishment from opposing the government's plans.

Fast forward to yesterday: it has been announced, that the pension payments from the remaining 100 000 private pensioners will be "redirected" to the state budged in 2012 as well, and for 2013 "for sure".
And, the bill to have it "redirected" indefinetly has been drafted. An interesting thing about that bill is that it does not mention any compensation to us - if it stays that way, it will be just stolen from us and that's it.


In other words, the private pension funds will have enough of this shit and close, transferring my considerable savings to the state.

This a disgrace. Once again my disgust with the system and my country, where this communist shit can be done without masses protesting on the street, is just about complete.

These pension savings, and I mean the full sum of the 3 million people's, were the only remaining long term reserves of the economy, and the population. They managed to spend almost all of it in a year and still has us near collapse. Finishing off us remainers, plus setting up a world-record high VAT and some other extra taxes will allow them to avoid cutting spending for an other year, but then what?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 16, 2011, 03:36:13 AM
That's how democracy works. The lazy classes take your money.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 16, 2011, 08:06:34 AM
aaand, this morning, the delegation of the EU and IMF packed up and left Budapest in the middle of the negotiations.

:bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
The Economist blogged on this:
QuoteDemocracy in Hungary
Slip-sliding away

Dec 19th 2011, 17:47 by A.L.B | BUDAPEST

GYÖRGY MATOLCSY, Hungary's economy minister, wanted a war with the International Monetary Fund, and now he has got one.

Officials from the fund and the European Union have broken off preliminary talks with the Hungarian government over a financial safety net for the country. Why? Because the parliament, where the ruling Fidesz party has a two-thirds majority, has accelerated plans to change the management of the central bank and to expand membership of the monetary council, which sets interest rates.

MPs are also considering a new rule to fix tax and debt policies within the constitution. As a "cardinal law" it would require a two-thirds majority to change, thus limiting future governments' room for manoeuvre.

The new legislation could "undermine the independence of the central bank", said Amadeo Altafaj-Tardio, the EU's monetary-affairs spokesman. The IMF echoed these sentiments, stating that an independent central bank is "one of the cornerstones of sound economic management".

The planned law would allow the prime minister, Viktor Orbán, to nominate a third vice-governor to the board of the central bank. At the same time Fidesz MPs have proposed merging the central bank with the financial regulator to create a new body.

András Simor, the central-bank governor, described the proposed third vice-governor as a "political commissar" and said the new laws were a step on the road to the "final elimination" of the bank's independence. Government supporters point out that Ferenc Gyurcsany, the former Socialist prime minister, also interfered with the running of the bank and enlarged the monetary council.

Mr Matolcsy, meanwhile, is unbowed. He told Hír TV, a pro-government channel, that the government will continue to push the law through parliament, although he said the opinions of the European Central Bank would be taken into account. There is no reason, he says, to fear for the independence of the central bank. Negotiations will resume in January.

Fidesz allies have now been appointed to the presidency, the State Audit Office, the State Prosecutor, the National Media Authority, the new fiscal council and the new National Courts Authority, among others. Officials say that party backgrounds are irrelevant and that office-holders will exercise their mandates independently. Democracy in Hungary, they claim, is safe.

Opposition politicians, international watchdogs, the EU and the United States disagree. They argue that the government's attempt to limit the independence of the central bank near-completes Fidesz's steady undermining of Hungary's formerly independent institutions and its removal of the checks and balances found in most European democracies.

An overwhelming victory at the polls, which Fidesz won last year, does not, say Western officials, give the party a mandate for a long-term (the new appointees will hold office for between nine and 12 years) takeover of legislative and executive functions. Government officials have not explained why it seems that only Fidesz allies can be trusted to exercise their mandates independently.

Party leaders struggled to account for the abrupt departure of the IMF-EU delegation last week. János Lázár, head of the Fidesz parliamentary grouping, hit on one possible explanation. It would be perfectly understandable, he said, if officials "wanted to go home for Christmas and wait for little Jesus there, rather than in Budapest".

Wags in the capital joke that the Hungarian legislative process works as follows. The prime minister has an idea in the morning, Mr Matolcsy announces it as policy in the afternoon, by the end of the week Mr Lázár is piloting it through parliament and it becomes law on Monday. An exaggeration, to be sure, but not by much.
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2011, 04:58:42 PM
QuoteWags in the capital joke that the Hungarian legislative process works as follows. The prime minister has an idea in the morning, Mr Matolcsy announces it as policy in the afternoon, by the end of the week Mr Lázár is piloting it through parliament and it becomes law on Monday. An exaggeration, to be sure, but not by much.

Hungary needs funnier wags. :mellow:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2011, 04:58:42 PM
QuoteWags in the capital joke that the Hungarian legislative process works as follows. The prime minister has an idea in the morning, Mr Matolcsy announces it as policy in the afternoon, by the end of the week Mr Lázár is piloting it through parliament and it becomes law on Monday. An exaggeration, to be sure, but not by much.

Hungary needs funnier wags. :mellow:

Actually, that quoted part is not an exaggeration. Sure, sometimes the PM has an idea at the end of the week prior to the one described there, but the general flow is the same. :P

To make all that smoother, the governing party has used two main tools in Parlaiment:
-propose bills as a single MP's proposal rather than the government itself - a lot of mandatory checks and consultations can be skipped this way. Basically every single law has been proposed like this
-schedule important laws to late night sessions - you minimize own voting manpower required, minimize opposition voices, and voter attention to all those. Not many people will be watching live Parlaiment sessions in the telly past 10PM.

Regarding the latter, recently the opposition parties coordinated to fuck them over (maybe it was about the education bill, not sure). They used each and every chance to delay the process, so the bill became a law only around 4AM in the morning. :lol: Kudos to them, but of course adjustments to parlaimentary process and government handling of these has been made to avoid this happening again, AFAIK.


Now, on the matter of us flipping the IMF and EU off, it appears that Barroso personally wrote a letter to Orban.

A leading online news site published parts of it in an article (as a translation). In return, the government spokeperson basically flat-out declined the quoted contents. So the journalist in question has started blogging the letter, word for word.

In it, Barroso asks, borderline demands as I see, that the government stops with their almost-ready (or already accepted? Can't keep up with their pace to be honest) law radically reforming our central bank, by giving much more government oversight over it.

Local educated guesses are that this is being done for two reasons: first, that the prez of the central bank has been rather vocal about his dissaproval of the government's careless rampage through our economy, and secondly, the central bank has amasssed a considerable reserve of euros. Mostly because when we got THIS close to bankrupcy during the heydays of the 2008 crisis, a lack of euro reserves contributed to that greatly.
Now, with the credit dry up and economic stagnation in Europe, the national budget is in a critical state even after the pension nationalization of early this year. And since the government just refuses austerity (how could a country run without more than 50% GDP redistribution plus a healthy dose of regular deficit spending, right?), they simply NEED to grab that euro reserve if we fall out with the IMF, and they'll probably need to fall back on it even if get IMF aid.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:46:00 AM
I download this morning's International Herald Tribune and what's on the first page? An article about the slow motion coup in Hungary.

And they are right. :weep:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 22, 2011, 02:48:49 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:46:00 AM
I download this morning's International Herald Tribune and what's on the first page? An article about the slow motion coup in Hungary.

And they are right. :weep:
Get out!  The UK's nice at the minute....
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 22, 2011, 02:49:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.

Will it be good Nazis like Goebbels or bad Nazis like Himmler and Hess?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 22, 2011, 02:49:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.

Will it be good Nazis like Goebbels or bad Nazis like Himmler and Hess?

Well we have conformist nazis in suits who have their private army of skinheads on the side, and we have nazis who do stuff like putting up town name displays in "ancient Hungarian runes" and do a weird mix of paganist fetishry and Christianity, and all other sorts of lunacy which would make most Tea Baggers in the States look positively sane.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 03:12:01 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
The Economist blogged on this:
QuoteDemocracy in Hungary
Slip-sliding away

Dec 19th 2011, 17:47 by A.L.B | BUDAPEST

GYÖRGY MATOLCSY, Hungary's economy minister, wanted a war with the International Monetary Fund, and now he has got one.

Officials from the fund and the European Union have broken off preliminary talks with the Hungarian government over a financial safety net for the country. Why? Because the parliament, where the ruling Fidesz party has a two-thirds majority, has accelerated plans to change the management of the central bank and to expand membership of the monetary council, which sets interest rates.

MPs are also considering a new rule to fix tax and debt policies within the constitution. As a "cardinal law" it would require a two-thirds majority to change, thus limiting future governments' room for manoeuvre.

The new legislation could "undermine the independence of the central bank", said Amadeo Altafaj-Tardio, the EU's monetary-affairs spokesman. The IMF echoed these sentiments, stating that an independent central bank is "one of the cornerstones of sound economic management".

The planned law would allow the prime minister, Viktor Orbán, to nominate a third vice-governor to the board of the central bank. At the same time Fidesz MPs have proposed merging the central bank with the financial regulator to create a new body.

András Simor, the central-bank governor, described the proposed third vice-governor as a "political commissar" and said the new laws were a step on the road to the "final elimination" of the bank's independence. Government supporters point out that Ferenc Gyurcsany, the former Socialist prime minister, also interfered with the running of the bank and enlarged the monetary council.

Mr Matolcsy, meanwhile, is unbowed. He told Hír TV, a pro-government channel, that the government will continue to push the law through parliament, although he said the opinions of the European Central Bank would be taken into account. There is no reason, he says, to fear for the independence of the central bank. Negotiations will resume in January.

Fidesz allies have now been appointed to the presidency, the State Audit Office, the State Prosecutor, the National Media Authority, the new fiscal council and the new National Courts Authority, among others. Officials say that party backgrounds are irrelevant and that office-holders will exercise their mandates independently. Democracy in Hungary, they claim, is safe.

Opposition politicians, international watchdogs, the EU and the United States disagree. They argue that the government's attempt to limit the independence of the central bank near-completes Fidesz's steady undermining of Hungary's formerly independent institutions and its removal of the checks and balances found in most European democracies.

An overwhelming victory at the polls, which Fidesz won last year, does not, say Western officials, give the party a mandate for a long-term (the new appointees will hold office for between nine and 12 years) takeover of legislative and executive functions. Government officials have not explained why it seems that only Fidesz allies can be trusted to exercise their mandates independently.

Party leaders struggled to account for the abrupt departure of the IMF-EU delegation last week. János Lázár, head of the Fidesz parliamentary grouping, hit on one possible explanation. It would be perfectly understandable, he said, if officials "wanted to go home for Christmas and wait for little Jesus there, rather than in Budapest".

Wags in the capital joke that the Hungarian legislative process works as follows. The prime minister has an idea in the morning, Mr Matolcsy announces it as policy in the afternoon, by the end of the week Mr Lázár is piloting it through parliament and it becomes law on Monday. An exaggeration, to be sure, but not by much.
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Wow what a shithole. The only concern is that it paints the whole region with a negative brush.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 03:18:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 22, 2011, 02:49:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.

Will it be good Nazis like Goebbels or bad Nazis like Himmler and Hess?

Well we have conformist nazis in suits who have their private army of skinheads on the side, and we have nazis who do stuff like putting up town name displays in "ancient Hungarian runes" and do a weird mix of paganist fetishry and Christianity, and all other sorts of lunacy which would make most Tea Baggers in the States look positively sane.

What the fuck happened with Hungarians? I thought you people were smarter.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 03:34:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 03:18:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 22, 2011, 02:49:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 20, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 19, 2011, 04:53:14 PM
Is it as bad as it sounds Tamas? :mellow:

Yes, see above.

I am resigned to the fact that we are on a quick road to either default, or a sudden drastical drop in government spending, both which will lead to nazi rule.

Will it be good Nazis like Goebbels or bad Nazis like Himmler and Hess?

Well we have conformist nazis in suits who have their private army of skinheads on the side, and we have nazis who do stuff like putting up town name displays in "ancient Hungarian runes" and do a weird mix of paganist fetishry and Christianity, and all other sorts of lunacy which would make most Tea Baggers in the States look positively sane.

What the fuck happened with Hungarians? I thought you people were smarter.

meh. That's what happened.

Latest polls show that the number of people who would not vote in the elections if they were tomorrow is staggering, but of those would surely go and vote, Jobbik (the nazis) have 25%
So if people still cared for politics, they would be nothing more than a fringe minority. But apathy and general depression about the future is just about complete, so just like the Tea Party or the Occupiers, they can make a lot of noise by being the only really active political force on the population's level.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 04:16:59 AM
This week was a new record in the law-making blitzkrieg Sheilb's article mentioned. They managed to put on schedule for today a bill without a name  :lol: They only named it last evening. (it's about them churches).

Speaking of the church-law, it shows how closely the Constitutional Court and the government works together now: out of the blue, the previous version of this law was cancelled, a day or two before the Const. Court filed several complaints about it.

Also today, the nationalization of the tobacco trade will take place - 20 or 30 years concessions will have to be bought from the state if you will want to sell tobacco products. Good thing, this guildification worked very well for Greece on the long run, as I hear.
The nominal reason for this is of course to PROTECT TEH CHILDREN, but the new law containing the nationalization has ZERO new rules regarding minors, compared to the previous law regulating tobacco sale.

yay!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 04:20:01 AM
Oh, and nationalization:
couple of weeks ago, the state announced a very generous buying offer on the stocks of a big (and quite successful) Hungarian company which produces trucks and other construction and industrial machinery, called Raba.
No clear explanation on why state ownership of this private company is necessary, but for a hefty sum of taxpayer money, the state now controls it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 08:00:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 04:20:01 AM
Oh, and nationalization:
couple of weeks ago, the state announced a very generous buying offer on the stocks of a big (and quite successful) Hungarian company which produces trucks and other construction and industrial machinery, called Raba.
No clear explanation on why state ownership of this private company is necessary, but for a hefty sum of taxpayer money, the state now controls it.

Duh. They need trucks to be able to ship all the Jews, gypsies and homos to the camps. Railroads are not what they used to be in the golden era.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on December 22, 2011, 08:29:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 08:00:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 22, 2011, 04:20:01 AM
Oh, and nationalization:
couple of weeks ago, the state announced a very generous buying offer on the stocks of a big (and quite successful) Hungarian company which produces trucks and other construction and industrial machinery, called Raba.
No clear explanation on why state ownership of this private company is necessary, but for a hefty sum of taxpayer money, the state now controls it.
Duh. They need trucks to be able to ship all the Jews, gypsies and homos to the camps. Railroads are not what they used to be in the golden era.
Maybe they'll ship you, too?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on December 22, 2011, 08:35:21 AM
Seriously a pole playing the concentration camp card? Half of poland was on the waiting list hoping to get a chance to help the nazi's out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:27:57 AM
An other day in new revolutionarized Hungary:

-some important votes today: finalization of the pension-nationalization, nationalization of the shop-on-mobile systems (srsly), and the "stabilization act" with various stuff included which pissed the EU off
-our PM answered Barroso that the critisized laws WILL be enacted as they are "integral ammendments" to the new constitution which will go live 1st of January
-the hyspter green LMP party held a protest, by chanining themselves to the parking entrance of Parlaiment. Our former socialist PM Gyurcsany managed to hack the event by appearing there, before the police decided to just arrest the lot, including him. Later they were released
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 23, 2011, 09:28:44 AM
I'm so glad we have this thread.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2011, 09:37:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:27:57 AM
-the hyspter green LMP party

Hipster gypsies?  :hmm:

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:40:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 23, 2011, 09:28:44 AM
I'm so glad we have this thread.

I am sorry, but I'll keep reporting this Monty Python act we call a government :P

Let us, for example, see the good patriotic work done by the christian-democractic wing of the ruling "parties" today (the christian-democracts are a virtual party maintained for who knows why by FIDESZ, but probably to maximize parlaimentary seat gains in elections):

Law on families:
The family is "not primarily a biological, but a social construct", and the "basic buildingstone" of Hungarian society. It consist of a husband, a wife, and children, but "cross-generational" relationships between grandparents and children are also important.
Subsidies for families will not be based on wealth, but will be granted universally. Media outlets will have to "respect the institution of marriage" in their broadcasts. From this time on, due to this law, children will be abided by law to "perform according to their talent" in school, and "avoid endangering their own health".

Law on the national flag and heraldry:
There will be a National Heraldry Committee which will review the local heraldries of counties, cities, and towns for correctness. International fairs and events will have to have the cultural minsiter's permission to show the national flag, same goes for showing it on products. Private citizens are free to wave it around to "show their national identity" however.


Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:41:21 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2011, 09:37:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:27:57 AM
-the hyspter green LMP party

Hipster gypsies?  :hmm:

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on December 23, 2011, 12:20:37 PM
Sounds like a bunch of shit, Tamas. My sympathies :console:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on December 23, 2011, 12:27:41 PM
Why can't Fahdiz just leave poor Tamas alone?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 23, 2011, 12:33:14 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 23, 2011, 09:40:45 AM
Law on families:
The family is "not primarily a biological, but a social construct", and the "basic buildingstone" of Hungarian society. It consist of a husband, a wife, and children, but "cross-generational" relationships between grandparents and children are also important.
Subsidies for families will not be based on wealth, but will be granted universally. Media outlets will have to "respect the institution of marriage" in their broadcasts.
Are they banning broadcasts about homosexuals, or just same sex marriage?

QuoteFrom this time on, due to this law, children will be abided by law to "perform according to their talent" in school, and "avoid endangering their own health".
What's that supposed to mean?

QuoteLaw on the national flag and heraldry:
There will be a National Heraldry Committee which will review the local heraldries of counties, cities, and towns for correctness. International fairs and events will have to have the cultural minsiter's permission to show the national flag, same goes for showing it on products. Private citizens are free to wave it around to "show their national identity" however.
That sounds relatively harmless (if useless)?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 24, 2011, 01:47:58 PM
The Economist has another depressing blog.  Again how true is this? 
QuoteBudapest backwash

Dec 23rd 2011, 12:45 by A.L.B. | BUDAPEST

THE NEWS was not a surprise and nor did it show much Christmas spirit. But it still came as a shock: Klubrádió, the enormously popular liberal talk radio station, has lost its frequency and will have to close by March 2012. The Media Council, all of whose members were nominated by the ruling right-wing Fidesz party after opposition parties boycotted it, and whose chairwoman, Annamária Szalai is a former Fidesz MP, has awarded the frequency to Autórádió, an obscure new company.

András Arató, Klubrádió's managing director, said he will contest the decision in court, as the station has a moral obligation to its half million listeners and 10,000 financial supporters. Karola Kiricsi, the council's spokeswoman, refused to explain to journalists the precise criteria under which the decision was taken and reportedly left the press conference after answering three questions. The Council maintains that it is an autonomous body, independent of government, and has assigned the state-owned frequencies in accordance to legal procedures. 

Either way, the decision will fuel the growing international alarm about the government's relentless centralisation of power, its packing of formerly independent institutions with party allies and will boost rising domestic anger over media freedom. Thousands of protestors gathered outside Hungarian Radio headquarters on Thursday afternoon. Meanwhile, a group of current and former state television editors are on hunger strike after Zoltán Lomnici, a former chief justice, was airbrushed out of footage shown on state television. The clumsy editing brought back memories, all too familiar to this part of the world, of Soviet manipulation of photographs and history. 

One editor has since been sacked and another reassigned, but the hunger strike continues. The strikers say that the airbrush episode is symptomatic of widespread news manipulation and political pressure from the government. Norbert Fekete, a former editor at the evening news programme told Reuters: "We'd get clear instructions about expectations of any given story, what it must suggest. A recurring theme was the pressure to cast a negative light on previous Socialist governments. In this regime only good things happen." 

Both the government and the content provider for state news channels strongly deny the claims. The government fully respects the independence of the public media and rejects all allegations of influence, said a spokesman. But not everything is going the government's way. To the surprise of many, the Constitutional Court threw out several key provisions of the Media Law and drastically curbed the powers of the Media Council, removing its power to scrutinise print and online content for contravening human rights, human dignity and privacy. The law, the court ruled, "unconstitutionally limited freedom of the written press". The court also strengthened journalists' protection of sources, saying they may only be forced to divulge them under strict legal procedures. 

The Court also threw out a new law that regulates religious organisations and vetoed provisions of the criminal code that would the allow the chief prosecutor to decide which court would hear a particular trial, allow preliminary detention for five days without charges and allow a suspect to be held for two days without the right to contact a lawyer. Government officials said they will work with the court to find constitutional solutions to the problems. Meanwhile, MPs from LMP, the green-liberal opposition party, newly boosted by flattering coverage in the New York Times have chained themselves to the gates of Parliament to protest about the parlous state of Hungarian democracy. It may be down, but it's not certainly not out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 24, 2011, 02:40:41 PM
It is true, except that Klubrádió is left-leaning, I wouldn't call it liberal in the classical sense.
But cleary it has been the only clearly opposition-voiced country-wide medium. The two major private TV stations has long retreated into simply not covering (apart from as news reporting) political issues at all.

The Const. Court decisions were mildly encouraging but:
-the media law thing is, well, it's not like it stopping the media authority from handling Klubrádió's frequency to a ridicously low-funded newbie company, now, does it?
-the religious law's new form only mildly differs from what was sent back by the Const. Court

The Court's true and final test comes next week, when they will have the pension nationalization issue on the agenda for the very last time. Due to the new Constitution, all pending cases will be nullified come 1st of January, so if they wish, they can continue biding their time on this issue to avoid any tough decisions one way or the other. Like they did since February.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on December 24, 2011, 03:54:59 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 23, 2011, 12:33:14 PM

QuoteFrom this time on, due to this law, children will be abided by law to "perform according to their talent" in school, and "avoid endangering their own health".


Yeah, I'm really curious what this is suppose to mean.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 24, 2011, 05:38:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 24, 2011, 03:54:59 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 23, 2011, 12:33:14 PM

QuoteFrom this time on, due to this law, children will be abided by law to "perform according to their talent" in school, and "avoid endangering their own health".


Yeah, I'm really curious what this is suppose to mean.

just like everyone else  :lol: That's just a point to illustrate the absurdity of the law.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 26, 2011, 05:25:25 AM
Quote from: HVC on December 22, 2011, 08:35:21 AM
Seriously a pole playing the concentration camp card? Half of poland was on the waiting list hoping to get a chance to help the nazi's out.

At least we didn't have a government that allied itself with the nazis, like Hungary. And many Poles were shipped off to concentration camps too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 26, 2011, 05:26:51 AM
QuoteThe family is "not primarily a biological, but a social construct"

Doesn't that actually undermine it? Saying that something is a "social construct" has usually been the first step to deconstruct something. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on December 26, 2011, 08:02:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 26, 2011, 05:25:25 AM
Quote from: HVC on December 22, 2011, 08:35:21 AM
Seriously a pole playing the concentration camp card? Half of poland was on the waiting list hoping to get a chance to help the nazi's out.

At least we didn't have a government that allied itself with the nazis, like Hungary. And many Poles were shipped off to concentration camps too.
Yeah, because Poles are fucking stupid.  You were in-between the Soviets and the Nazis, so you allied with fucking France.  There is no great moral value in not allying with the Nazis.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 29, 2011, 04:26:30 AM
Latest developments from Magyaristan (the Turks actually call Hungary that, rather prophetic, or they knew it all along):

-Constitutional Court didn't do anything regarding the pension nationalization. Fuck'em, I will NOT sign voluntary return to the state system, altough I would get the net profits of my account if I did that. Fuck me if I will be bribed by communists. Fuck this coward communist country as well. Fucking sheeps, the lot of them.

-Some months ago a thousand residents (that's how you also call your noob doctors?) decided to protest the abysmal state of healthcare and their salary in particular, and wrote letters of resignation coming into effect at 1st of January, hoping to force the government into doing something.
This morning's news is that the PM has ordered the relevant minister to do plans on how the healthcare system will function with a thousand doctors removed from it.
This is, btw, similar to what was already happening in Slovakia.

-A week or two ago, the state TV news blurred out a dignitary during a reporting (he is/was some kind of high-end prosecutor or whatever, doesn't matter much), when he was seen in the background during an interview done at some cross-borders Hungarian charity thingie.
It turned out that he has been like an arch rival of one of the new main guys at the TV station, ever since the TV guy didn't receive a position this other bloke got. So since he took his TV office, this prosecutor dude has been verboten to appear in any reporting.

During the ensuing scandal, two lowbie editors were fired, but two other works started a hunger strike in front of the TV building, demanding the firing of the real culprit, that boss guy I mentioned.
First they tried to break them with repeating music coming from a loudspeaker above their heads  :lol: Then the building's security slowly started building a fence around the entrance where these hunger strikers are, and this morning they wanted to finish it. Got into a bit of a brawl with the hunger strikers over it, then some politicans arrived, and latest report is that they tore the fence down.
Police is not interveening as it's "private property". I am not exactly sure what's the legal backing behind the police watching ildly as some folks destroy private property, I guess it's because the TV is not asking for help.
I am of course with the demonstrators.
EDIT: who were fired from their TV jobs yesterday

But then again, this is a sheepish nation and their efforts are in vain.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 29, 2011, 04:29:09 AM
Are they really fucking sheeps (sic)?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 29, 2011, 04:30:37 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 29, 2011, 04:29:09 AM
Are they really fucking sheeps (sic)?

:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 29, 2011, 04:42:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 29, 2011, 04:26:30 AM
-A week or two ago, the state TV news blurred out a dignitary during a reporting (he is/was some kind of high-end prosecutor or whatever, doesn't matter much), when he was seen in the background during an interview done at some cross-borders Hungarian charity thingie.
It turned out that he has been like an arch rival of one of the new main guys at the TV station, ever since the TV guy didn't receive a position this other bloke got. So since he took his TV office, this prosecutor dude has been verboten to appear in any reporting.

LOL wtf. This is beyond silly. It's Kafka-esque.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 29, 2011, 05:09:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 29, 2011, 04:42:47 AM
LOL wtf. This is beyond silly. It's Kafka-esque.  :ph34r:
I think this is the story:
http://www.budapesttimes.hu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21585&Itemid=219
What I find most absurd is how shit the airbrushing was:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.budapesttimes.hu%2Fimages%2Fstories%2FNews%2F20111209%2FZoltan%2520Lomnici%2520DunaB.jpg&hash=10bed3abdcaa45cc53aaa8b9a29712775076128e)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.budapesttimes.hu%2Fimages%2Fstories%2FNews%2F20111209%2FZoltan%2520Lomnici%2520HiradoB.jpg&hash=ec9c436e23e2ce3ef9203a63b63840358aafc45b)

Again Tamas, use your EU citizenship and come to the UK or Ireland - I don't know if you speak any other languages - if so maybe try more economically active bits, like Germany.

And I feel I should apologise to Marti for all the Poland jokes during the twin years.  It's still weird that you elected twins but nothing on this :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 29, 2011, 06:45:21 AM
indeed, get out while you still can.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 29, 2011, 07:01:21 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 29, 2011, 06:45:21 AM
indeed, get out while you still can.

It does start to look like it will come down to that consideration, doesn't it?

I always entertained the tought of moving abroad, but a couple of years ago I more or less determined that the advantages I have here at home outweight the disadvantages.

Well, that conclusion is rapidly losing ground.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 05:00:33 AM
Janos Lazar, the faction leader of FIDESZ has been a quick-rising star in the party, and a perfect example of their attitude: ruthless, arrogant, and and a good servant of the Leader

A few months ago an audio recording from his time as mayor of a minor city was leaked. It was a council meeting, and I can't recall the details but he made a remark that "those who achieved nothing worth exactly that" and "he can have no sympathies for those who are not successful".
What makes it especially arrogant that his "achievment" was to be an asskisser lackey of the previous mayor, so effectively, that he became his successor.

So anyway, in 2006 as Mayor, he took up a serious CHF loan for the city via bonds. Much chest-beating was over it apparently, much bonuses paid for city council leaders on their successful financial wizardry, etc.

Needless to say, it is firing back on the city badly now, and they are in danger of going bankrupt on Lazar's heritage.

So how is he solving that? He has sent an OPEN LETTER to the bank who bought their CHF bonds, telling them to let some of the debt go, or he will push through punitive legislation on them and the rest of the sector.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 30, 2011, 06:09:13 AM
Just read this Tamas.  Terrifying:
QuoteHungary's Constitutional Revolution
Kim Lane Scheppele

Last week, Paul Krugman's column "Depression and Democracy" called attention to Hungary's "authoritarian slide." Since I was one of the sources for Paul's column, I'd like to explain why I have been alarmed at the state of both constitutionalism and democracy in Hungary.

In a free and fair election last spring in Hungary, the center-right political party, Fidesz, got 53% of the vote. This translated into 68% of the seats in the parliament under Hungary's current disproportionate election law. With this supermajority, Fidesz won the power to change the constitution. They have used this power in the most extreme way at every turn, amending the constitution ten times in their first year in office and then enacting a wholly new constitution that will take effect on January 1, 2012.

This constitutional activity has transformed the legal landscape to remove checks on the power of the government and put virtually all power into the hands of the current governing party for the foreseeable future.

The new constitution has attracted a great deal of criticism from the Venice Commission for Democracy through Law of the Council of Europe, the European Parliament and the United States. But the Fidesz government has paid no attention.

Under the new constitutional order, the judiciary has taken the largest hit. The Constitutional Court, which once had the responsibility to review nearly all laws for constitutionality, has been killed off in three ways. First, the government expanded the number of judges on the bench and filled the new positions with their own political allies (think: Roosevelt's court-packing plan). Then, the government restricted the jurisdiction of the court so that it can no longer review any law that has an impact on the budget, like laws pertaining to taxes and austerity programs, unless the law infringes particular listed rights. Finally, the government changed the rules of access to the court so that it will no longer be easily able to review laws in the abstract for their compliance with the constitution. Moreover, individuals can no longer challenge the constitutionality of laws without first going through a lengthy process in the ordinary courts. The old Constitutional Court, which has served as the major check on governmental power in a unicameral parliamentary system, is now functionally dead.

The ordinary judiciary has suffered a similar fate. The government lowered the retirement age for judges from 70 to 62, giving judges only a few months to adjust to their new futures. More than 200 judges will be forced to retire from the bench starting on January 1, including most of the court presidents who assign cases and manage the daily workings of courts. The new law on the judiciary requires that the Supreme Court president have at least five years of Hungarian judicial experience. The current president of the Supreme Court is disqualified because his 17 years of experience as a judge on the European Court of Human Rights do not count. Therefore, he must leave office on January 1 also.

The law on the judiciary also creates a new National Judicial Office with a single person at the helm who has the power to replace the retiring judges and to name future judges. This person also has the power to move any sitting judge to a different court. A new constitutional amendment – to the new constitution! – will permit both the public prosecutor and the head of this new National Judicial Office to choose which judge will hear each case.


The independence of the judiciary is over when a government puts its own judges onto the bench, moves them around at will, and then selects which ones get particular cases to decide.

The Vice President of the European Commission for Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship, Viviane Reding, issued a strongly worded request for information about the new law last week and demanded immediate replies from the Hungarian government. She also strongly urged the government "to ensure . . . that no measure is implemented until doubts about its compliance with EU law are removed." The government responded by saying all of these changes are improvements and it seems to be going ahead with implementing the new constitutional framework despite the strong caution from Brussels.

In the new constitutional system, the legal supervision of elections has also been changed. Before the last election, the norm was for the five-member Election Commission to be politically diverse and for the government of the day to consult the opposition before nominating candidates. But the rules were changed last year so that each new national election is now accompanied by a new choice of election commissioners. As a result, the existing commissioners were removed from their offices without allowing them to finish their terms and now the Election Commission consists of five members of the governing party.

The new election law specifies the precise boundaries of the new electoral districts that will send representatives to the parliament. But the new districts are drawn in such a way that no other party on the political horizon besides Fidesz is likely to win elections. A respected Hungarian think tank ran the numbers from the last three elections using the new district boundaries. Fidesz would have won all three elections, including the two they actually lost.

Virtually every independent political institution has taken a hit. The human rights, data protection and minority affairs ombudsmen have been collapsed into one lesser post. The public prosecutor, the state audit office and, most recently, the Central Bank are all slated for more overtly political management in the new legal order.

And all of this has happened while the press operates under day-to-day intimidation. A draconian set of media laws created a new media board – staffed only by Fidesz party loyalists with a chair who is appointed by the Prime Minister to a nine-year term. This board can review all public and private media for their compliance with a nebulous standard of political "balance" and has the power to bankrupt any news organization with large fines.
It is not surprising that the media have become self-censoring. This new media regime has been severely criticized by the European Commissioner for Communications, among others.

The new constitution also accepts conservative Christian social doctrine as state policy, in a country where only 21% of the population attends any religious services at all. The fetus is protected from the moment of conception. Marriage is only legal if between a man and a woman. The constitution "recognize(s) the role of Christianity in preserving nationhood" and holds that "the family and the nation constitute the principal framework of our coexistence." While these religious beliefs are hard-wired into the constitution, a new law on the status of religion cut the number of state-recognized churches to only fourteen, deregistering 348 other churches.

In a democracy, the population can "throw the bums out" and replace the government with a different one that can change the policies that do not have public support. But that will be nearly impossible under this constitution. In addition to compromising institutions that are necessary for a free and fair election – like a free press and a neutral election apparatus – the new constitution embeds Fidesz control even if another political party defies the odds and wins an election.

The new constitution makes huge swaths of public policy changeable only by a two-thirds vote of any subsequent parliament. From here on, all tax and fiscal policy must be decided by a two-thirds supermajority. Even the precise boundaries of electoral districts cannot be changed by simple majority vote, but only by a two-third supermajority. If a new government gets a mere majority, policies instituted during the Fidesz government cannot be changed.


That's not all. The long arm of the current Fidesz government can grab and shake any foreseeable future government through the officials they are now putting into place. The new constitutional order extends the terms of office for the public prosecutor (9 years), the head of the state audit office (12 years), the head of the national judicial office (9 years), the head of the media board (9 years), the head of the budget council (6 years) and more. Each of these positions has been filled with Fidesz party loyalists who will be able to conduct public investigations, intimidate the media, press criminal charges and continue to pack the courts long after the government's current term is over. Moreover, unless there is a two-thirds vote to replace these new office holders, they can stay in office until such a two-thirds vote can be achieved, which could extend these long terms of office even further.

How do all of these pieces work together? One example will illustrate. The constitution creates a national budget council with the power to veto any future budget that adds to the national debt, which any foreseeable budget will do. The members of the budget council have been chosen by this government for terms of 6 or 12 years and can only be replaced if two-thirds of the parliament can agree on new candidates when their terms are over. Another part of the constitution requires the parliament to pass a budget by March 31 of each year. If the parliament fails to do so, the president of the country can dissolve the parliament and call new elections. When these pieces are put together, the constraints on any future government are clear. A new government will pass a budget – but that budget can be vetoed by Fidesz loyalists so that the budget deadline is missed, and then the president (also named by Fidesz) will call new elections. And this can be repeated until an acceptable government is voted back into power.

The only parties that might replace Fidesz in the current Hungarian landscape are the Socialist Party or, in a real nightmare scenario, the far-right Jobbik. Under laws that preceded Fidesz's election last year, political parties that are anti-constitutional may be banned. Some have suggested that Fidesz could eliminate Jobbik in this way. In fact, Europe probably would not mind if Jobbik were excluded from public life because other European countries can ban extremist parties also. But what about Fidesz's primary competition – the Socialists?

According to a proposed constitutional amendment, the crimes of the former communist party will be listed in the constitution and the statute of limitations for prosecuting crimes committed during the communist period will be lifted. The former communist party is branded a criminal organization and the current opposition Socialist Party is designated as their legal successor. It is still unclear, legally speaking, what this amendment means. But it is probably not good for the major opposition party.

The Fidesz government has accomplished this constitutional revolution by legal means after a democratic election. But though Fidesz was democratically elected and has accomplished this program through constitutional change, Hungary is not a constitutional democracy. Instead Hungary is, as Paul Krugman said, sliding into authoritarianism.

I saw in a follow up post:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/more-hungary/#
That Fidesz's popularity has halved.  But it looks like no-one else is picking it up:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2011%2F12%2F20%2Fopinion%2F122011krugman1%2F122011krugman1-blog480.jpg&hash=19c02b64ff4d8fb87218aabac5e89ff5e4b03f3e)
From that I've two questions.  What's the chances of Jobbik taking over from the Socialists as the second party?  Is there any hope of an organised opposition actually emerging out of the unhappiness that's clearly there?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 30, 2011, 06:43:20 AM
Prediction: people's unhappiness with prevailing government doctrine will at some point render Hungary an ungovernable poorhouse. The smart people will leave the country for better opportunities abroad. The economic decline will continue and Hungary will turn into a new poorhouse of Europe. The prevailing government will blame this on foreign influences, isolating themselves further a.s.o. a.s.f.

Shame, really, Hungary was one of the countries of Ex-Warsaw Pact that I thought would get their shit together quickly (together with Poles and Czechs).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 07:01:46 AM
I wonder what they'll do when they go bankrupt very soon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 07:24:10 AM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 07:01:46 AM
I wonder what they'll do when they go bankrupt very soon.

Well before bankrupcy, they will use the Central Banks' considerable euro reserves to buy up state bonds which are like, not selling on the market below 8-9% or so right now.
Then they might get their hands on savings account, who knows. THEN, bankrupcy.

And Sheilbh, all of that article is true, and the saddest thing is that the population takes it with indifference and lethargy. Sure, they complain to friends and coworkers, but to do something? Nah, we will have a violent uprising when things become totally unbearable, but we are a very passive nation.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on December 30, 2011, 07:38:32 AM
We might get a new wave of Hungarian porn 'starlets'.  :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:31:30 AM
Btw, is there any chance of any internal, sensible opposition forming within Fidesz and taking the power away from these lunatics? Surely not everyone there is a closet dictator - or are they?

I'm asking because what actually broke PiS down was the fact that PO and PiS went to 2005 elections with a similar programme and a unified front (POPiS) but quickly fell out and eventually became mortal enemies. PO then needed to differentiate themselves from PiS and adopted a much more conciliatory rhetorics. If POPiS was a single party, it would be similar to Hungary imo.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:35:16 AM
Hungary is like a twilight zone version of Poland, where PiS wins a decisive victory and faces no opposition.

Btw, in Poland during the PiS rule they faced an almost unified front of media, celebrities, intellectuals, professions such as lawyers, judges, doctors etc. that eventually broke them. Why are such groups so apparently weak in Hungary? Is this a legacy of 1956 somehow that people are not accustomed to civil resistance?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 08:43:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:31:30 AM
Btw, is there any chance of any internal, sensible opposition forming within Fidesz and taking the power away from these lunatics? Surely not everyone there is a closet dictator - or are they?

I'm asking because what actually broke PiS down was the fact that PO and PiS went to 2005 elections with a similar programme and a unified front (POPiS) but quickly fell out and eventually became mortal enemies. If POPiS was a single party, it would be similar to Hungary imo.

Those people have been pushed out of leadership positions, and been marginalized by Orban. Everyone with a position of actual power owes that position personally to Orban, and got it on accounts of his loyalty to him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 08:51:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:35:16 AM
Hungary is like a twilight zone version of Poland, where PiS wins a decisive victory and faces no opposition.

Btw, in Poland during the PiS rule they faced an almost unified front of media, celebrities, intellectuals, professions such as lawyers, judges, doctors etc. that eventually broke them. Why are such groups so apparently weak in Hungary? Is this a legacy of 1956 somehow that people are not accustomed to civil resistance?

Well, it's a bit complex. We have no radical, violent far left. We have almost all of the mob on the far right, and mostly controlled by FIDESZ. The rest of it is with Jobbik, but for whatever reason, Jobbik has been the mildest opposition party. Sure, they complain for a lack of improvement in public safety, but what else can they do? Their "program" includes being angry at the jews and gypsies and homosexuals, and being all full of proud national rhetoric. The latter is COMPLETELY stolen by FIDESZ, the rest is stolen in part.
The thing is, you cannot get into a populist brawling match with FIDESZ without a serious risk of losing. And Jobbik can only gain by letting things play out - the collapse of the country will drive people to them, and the new laws will serve their undemocratic ways nicely.

The left is still disabled by the leading position of the Socialists. They have lost all credibility, and the new leftist party, LMP, is too much of a local debate group of big city hipsters to hold any kind of popular appeal in a country of bluecollar city dwellers and rural rednecks.

Besides, you cannot overtake FIDESZ from the left either. What are you going to do? Promise more state control of the economy? Compared to FIDESZ? LULZ. More welfare? The country is on the brink of bankrupcy because FIDESZ refuses to cut state spending in a meaningful ways.

What you are left with is protesting the things in Sheilb's article, but the people do not care enough for that. They care about the momentary state of their wallets. Affect that, and they will shout. Avoid immediate effect on their short-term financial status and they will let you do anything. This is the great lesson Orban knows fully well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:02:34 AM
hehe, Jobbik just did something: they asked for national referendum on a bunch of laws which were to be accepted today. Two laws, actually, the religious one, and one consisting several modifications to make laws compatible with the new constitution - I don't know the details.

Now, it will be the Parlaiment to decide wether a referendum can be held. So there won't be any. But by current rules, this decision can only be made in February.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:05:39 AM
One of the just accepted laws let the state institute special taxes in case an international organization, like the EU Comission or anyone else, would fine Hungary. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on December 30, 2011, 09:05:55 AM
I like the LMP by the sound of them :)

Do you not have a liberal party of some form?

This is a bit of a tangent but how does Hungary have so few parties?  It seems very odd for a continental country.

Could corruption cause the downfall of Fidesz?  I think it was in the Czech Republic where two entirely new parties overtook all the established ones on anti-corruption platforms. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:11:10 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 30, 2011, 09:05:55 AM
I like the LMP by the sound of them :)

Do you not have a liberal party of some form?

This is a bit of a tangent but how does Hungary have so few parties?  It seems very odd for a continental country.

Could corruption cause the downfall of Fidesz?  I think it was in the Czech Republic where two entirely new parties overtook all the established ones on anti-corruption platforms.

The liberals, who were more like social-liberals, really, were the second strongest party in 1990. Then in 1994 they agreed to form a coalition with the Socialists, and slowly eroded away by being much more busy with corrupting themselves to riches than articulating an own party indentity. "Liberal" is a smear-word for most Hungarians nowadays. :(

Corruption is certainly a possible downfall for them, they are doing it rather arrogantly. But again, it's not like the biggest opposition party is not full of angles of attack on themselves on that topic.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:58:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 09:02:34 AM
hehe, Jobbik just did something: they asked for national referendum on a bunch of laws which were to be accepted today. Two laws, actually, the religious one, and one consisting several modifications to make laws compatible with the new constitution - I don't know the details.

Now, it will be the Parlaiment to decide wether a referendum can be held. So there won't be any. But by current rules, this decision can only be made in February.

never mind! FIDESZ found a glitch in the constitution (the old one, which is going out of business in two days) regarding the rules on referendums, and they just cancelled Jobbik's call.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 30, 2011, 10:15:08 AM
I like how some user comments on Austrian news sites say that these events in Hungary are played up to distract from the general EU crisis, and that Hungary is doing nothing worse than what other countries or the U.S. do.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 10:37:35 AM
 :lol: the urgency and amateruishness on their lawmaking is horrible:

They just now accepted a new water utilities law. It would deserve a look on it's own (they declare that any given utility company will have monopoly in a town, and that prices must be equal everywhere. ie. so of course people next to a major river on the plains will be paying more so that people on top of a mountain may pay less, vive le' centrally determined prices!), but they added some, well, addendums on topics they needed to cover asap.

So, as important extensions of the water utilites law, they introduce a concept of "healthcare emergency" to force doctors to work, in case their planned evacuation of our healthcare system would cause major problems.

An other quick and important matter of water utliziation is to give casinos exemption from the smoking ban law coming into effect from Monday.

Also quickly covered waterutilisation topics are modifications to MP compensations and investment funds rulings.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 10:41:06 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 30, 2011, 10:15:08 AM
I like how some user comments on Austrian news sites say that these events in Hungary are played up to distract from the general EU crisis, and that Hungary is doing nothing worse than what other countries or the U.S. do.

Which reminds me, today an Austrian border town was covered in the news (state TV, so there you go) that people are throwing a tantrum over the planned sale of the empty border guard buildings, the mayor are worried that they'll have to buy containers as makeshift offices if the border is reinstated.

A bit anxious to have those fences back?  :D

This perceived Austrian attitude towards us is the only thing stopping me to take half of my parents' savings an deposit them in an Austrian bank. Perhaps this is why this issue was covered in state news.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on December 30, 2011, 10:51:50 AM
Their anxiety is understandable. Recently, after 20 years, the last recruits of the Army left the "support mission" in which military personnel moitored the borders towards Austria's eastern neighbours for illegal immigrants. They had no hard mandate (they had to call border police if they spotted something suspicious), but it was a hot political issue and gave the average Austrian some peace of mind that the Mongol hordes would not invade overnight. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
Tamas, is there anything silly planned about foreign investments? The company I work for invested a lot in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 11:50:46 AM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
Tamas, is there anything silly planned about foreign investments? The company I work for invested a lot in Hungary.

I wouldn't think so, but these guys are totally unpredictable. But I do hope they see that they have pushed everything to the limit.

This is a hot topic for myself as well - the company I work for have built other central european offices big enough to quickly scoop up our workload, so I don't think they would take further taxes or government harrasment lightly.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on December 30, 2011, 11:53:00 AM
Yesterday I saw a lead on some financial channel, "No appetite for Hungary."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 02:50:32 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 08:51:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 08:35:16 AM
Hungary is like a twilight zone version of Poland, where PiS wins a decisive victory and faces no opposition.

Btw, in Poland during the PiS rule they faced an almost unified front of media, celebrities, intellectuals, professions such as lawyers, judges, doctors etc. that eventually broke them. Why are such groups so apparently weak in Hungary? Is this a legacy of 1956 somehow that people are not accustomed to civil resistance?

Well, it's a bit complex. We have no radical, violent far left. We have almost all of the mob on the far right, and mostly controlled by FIDESZ. The rest of it is with Jobbik, but for whatever reason, Jobbik has been the mildest opposition party. Sure, they complain for a lack of improvement in public safety, but what else can they do? Their "program" includes being angry at the jews and gypsies and homosexuals, and being all full of proud national rhetoric. The latter is COMPLETELY stolen by FIDESZ, the rest is stolen in part.
The thing is, you cannot get into a populist brawling match with FIDESZ without a serious risk of losing. And Jobbik can only gain by letting things play out - the collapse of the country will drive people to them, and the new laws will serve their undemocratic ways nicely.

The left is still disabled by the leading position of the Socialists. They have lost all credibility, and the new leftist party, LMP, is too much of a local debate group of big city hipsters to hold any kind of popular appeal in a country of bluecollar city dwellers and rural rednecks.

Besides, you cannot overtake FIDESZ from the left either. What are you going to do? Promise more state control of the economy? Compared to FIDESZ? LULZ. More welfare? The country is on the brink of bankrupcy because FIDESZ refuses to cut state spending in a meaningful ways.

What you are left with is protesting the things in Sheilb's article, but the people do not care enough for that. They care about the momentary state of their wallets. Affect that, and they will shout. Avoid immediate effect on their short-term financial status and they will let you do anything. This is the great lesson Orban knows fully well.

It's not like you have to campaign on economy (other than normalcy). You could overtake Fidesz from the left by putting a stress on "worldview" issues while at the same time promising a stable economy? What about a party that would campaign on "we will stop Hungary from being an international pariah and make the country normal and safe again"? That's how PO won the government from PiS. I find it hard to believe that an average Hungarian is a greater xenophobic, racist, homophobic idiot than an average Pole.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on December 30, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
Isn't hating gays what normal people do?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 30, 2011, 04:19:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on December 30, 2011, 10:37:35 AM
An other quick and important matter of water utliziation is to give casinos exemption from the smoking ban law coming into effect from Monday.

:(  No more puffing away in the cafe listening to "Gloomy Sunday" over a shot of Unicum?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on December 30, 2011, 05:44:13 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
The company I work for invested a lot in Hungary.

What. The. Fuck.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on December 31, 2011, 04:36:52 AM
Haven't seen Tamas posting about this, so:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15982882

Hungary outlaws the homeless.

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Next, they should outlaw unemployment, poverty and disease. That would create a healthy nation of rich and gainfully employed Hungarians.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 31, 2011, 05:17:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 31, 2011, 04:36:52 AM
Haven't seen Tamas posting about this, so:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15982882

Hungary outlaws the homeless.

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Next, they should outlaw unemployment, poverty and disease. That would create a healthy nation of rich and gainfully employed Hungarians.

Well, only a district of Budapest outlawed them, to be correct. :P And there has been a civil movement to force the revokation of this.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on December 31, 2011, 05:32:32 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 30, 2011, 05:44:13 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
The company I work for invested a lot in Hungary.

What. The. Fuck.
The alternatives were Poland and Romania. But as several of our competitors already have invested in Hungary, the necessary infrastructure exists. And if Orban tanks the Forint, it will get comparatively cheaper too. ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 08:34:56 AM
My hopelessness (sp?) got to a new high just recently. It was caused by a quote from a piece. I will do my best to translate it:

"We are watched by cultured nations. They see our inability to progress, our bloating on samoyed morality; we are fiddling in the middle of Europe, like a piece of the Medieval left here. They see that we are empty and light, if we want to do something big we hit jews, when we start sobering up, we hurry to drink again from the cup of the sweet, colored-up drink of that thousand years old glory. They see that we are lazy and good-for-nothing. The stone castle of great nations, the parlaiment, is only good to be discredited. What will be the end of this, dear lords of mine? Because, I happen to be a magyar as well, not a 'pawnjew' as you mock everyone who is better than you. It will end by us being sent away, like we never was here."


Sounds actual? Yes.

Trouble is, it was written, 110 years ago, by one of our greatest poets/writers, Endre Ady.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:02:15 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 08:34:56 AM
My hopelessness (sp?) got to a new high just recently. It was caused by a quote from a piece. I will do my best to translate it:

"We are watched by cultured nations. They see our inability to progress, our bloating on samoyed morality; we are fiddling in the middle of Europe, like a piece of the Medieval left here. They see that we are empty and light, if we want to do something big we hit jews, when we start sobering up, we hurry to drink again from the cup of the sweet, colored-up drink of that thousand years old glory. They see that we are lazy and good-for-nothing. The stone castle of great nations, the parlaiment, is only good to be discredited. What will be the end of this, dear lords of mine? Because, I happen to be a magyar as well, not a 'pawnjew' as you mock everyone who is better than you. It will end by us being sent away, like we never was here."


Sounds actual? Yes.

Trouble is, it was written, 110 years ago, by one of our greatest poets/writers, Endre Ady.

That's some shitty English translation. :P

And seriously, don't feel bad. History usually repeats itself but as a farce. You will have an operetta-style government for a few years and then things will go back to normal. If not, Warsaw is always happy to send in tanks, like in 1956. :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:02:15 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 08:34:56 AM
My hopelessness (sp?) got to a new high just recently. It was caused by a quote from a piece. I will do my best to translate it:

"We are watched by cultured nations. They see our inability to progress, our bloating on samoyed morality; we are fiddling in the middle of Europe, like a piece of the Medieval left here. They see that we are empty and light, if we want to do something big we hit jews, when we start sobering up, we hurry to drink again from the cup of the sweet, colored-up drink of that thousand years old glory. They see that we are lazy and good-for-nothing. The stone castle of great nations, the parlaiment, is only good to be discredited. What will be the end of this, dear lords of mine? Because, I happen to be a magyar as well, not a 'pawnjew' as you mock everyone who is better than you. It will end by us being sent away, like we never was here."


Sounds actual? Yes.

Trouble is, it was written, 110 years ago, by one of our greatest poets/writers, Endre Ady.

That's some shitty English translation. :P

And seriously, don't feel bad. History usually repeats itself but as a farce. You will have an operetta-style government for a few years and then things will go back to normal. If not, Warsaw is always happy to send in tanks, like in 1956. :)

lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P

Well, we are the only one out of the "big three" of Eastern block vassals (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) who didn't end up with a Soviet military intervention and still managed to get one of the best functioning democracy and economy in the region. So I think we can do things properly. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:08:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P

Well, we are the only one out of the "big three" of Eastern block vassals (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) who didn't end up with a Soviet military intervention and still managed to get one of the best functioning democracy and economy in the region. So I think we can do things properly. :P

Speaking of which, I saw a headline somewhere today that there is a bill in the Slovakian parlaiment, which intends to fine everyone who dares saying nasty things about their MPs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:09:37 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:08:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P

Well, we are the only one out of the "big three" of Eastern block vassals (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) who didn't end up with a Soviet military intervention and still managed to get one of the best functioning democracy and economy in the region. So I think we can do things properly. :P

Speaking of which, I saw a headline somewhere today that there is a bill in the Slovakian parlaiment, which intends to fine everyone who dares saying nasty things about their MPs.

Is news from Slovakia often reported in Hungary? I mean, we are also their neighbours, but I don't recall ever seeing anything about them in our newspapers - they are like a non-entity pretty much. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:11:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:09:37 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:08:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
lol screw you, our 56 revolts started with sympathy-demonstrations for some shitty opposition in Poland. You Polacks can't even do that properly :P

Well, we are the only one out of the "big three" of Eastern block vassals (Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia) who didn't end up with a Soviet military intervention and still managed to get one of the best functioning democracy and economy in the region. So I think we can do things properly. :P

Speaking of which, I saw a headline somewhere today that there is a bill in the Slovakian parlaiment, which intends to fine everyone who dares saying nasty things about their MPs.

Is news from Slovakia often reported in Hungary? I mean, we are also their neighbours, but I don't recall ever seeing anything about them in our newspapers - they are like a non-entity pretty much. :P

just funny trivia like this. Also they have a nazi leader who gains (considerable) popularity by implying that we are bent on reconquering them, and that their Hungarian minority is to blame for anything sort of bad weather. When he makes comments like "I'll drive tanks on Budapest!" that makes the news here :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 02, 2012, 09:12:02 AM
It's funny, the only neighbours that are regularly in Austrian news are Germany and to lesser extent Italy. Switzerland, and anything in the east hardly gets mentioned (Hungarian news are a bit of a footnote atm).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:14:16 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 02, 2012, 09:12:02 AM
It's funny, the only neighbours that are regularly in Austrian news are Germany and to lesser extent Italy. Switzerland, and anything in the east hardly gets mentioned (Hungarian news are a bit of a footnote atm).

We cover Russia and Germany (and to a lesser extent Ukraine) in terms of internal politics the most. Lithuania and Belarus get coverage when they mistreat the Polish minority or (in Belarus's case) when they do something anti-democratic. Czech Republic gets coverage when someone dies or their president blocks the EU treaty or something like that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:15:50 AM
Hungary gets a lot of coverage in liberal/leftist media here right now, but that's probably mostly because during last elections Kaczynski said he would like Warsaw to be like Budapest one day, so every time Budapest/Hungary becomes more shitty, it gets covered to make fun of him.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:15:50 AM
Hungary gets a lot of coverage in liberal/leftist media here right now, but that's probably most because during last elections Kaczynski said he would like Warsaw to be like Budapest one day, so every time Budapest/Hungary becomes more shitty, it gets covered to make fun of him.

Sadly (since you have liberals running the show apparently in an okay way), Poland is like a non-entity in the news here. We cover elections briefly, and when something like the plane crash happens, but nothing else.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 02, 2012, 09:17:25 AM
In Germany, I'd say France gets most coverage among the neighbours. Next would be Poland and Netherlands. And then it probably depends on where you live - e.g. up in the North you hear more about Denmark.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:20:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:15:50 AM
Hungary gets a lot of coverage in liberal/leftist media here right now, but that's probably most because during last elections Kaczynski said he would like Warsaw to be like Budapest one day, so every time Budapest/Hungary becomes more shitty, it gets covered to make fun of him.

Sadly (since you have liberals running the show apparently in an okay way), Poland is like a non-entity in the news here. We cover elections briefly, and when something like the plane crash happens, but nothing else.

I wouldn't call our government "liberals", except perhaps in the classic sense (which does not mean "leftist"). Politically they are moderate conservatives, both on social issues and on the economy. They are closest to French gaullists, German CDU/CSU or the UK tories (but not eurosceptical). It's just when compared to PiS they seem leftist.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:21:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:20:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 09:15:50 AM
Hungary gets a lot of coverage in liberal/leftist media here right now, but that's probably most because during last elections Kaczynski said he would like Warsaw to be like Budapest one day, so every time Budapest/Hungary becomes more shitty, it gets covered to make fun of him.

Sadly (since you have liberals running the show apparently in an okay way), Poland is like a non-entity in the news here. We cover elections briefly, and when something like the plane crash happens, but nothing else.

I wouldn't call our government "liberals", except perhaps in the classic sense (which does not mean "leftist"). Politically they are moderate conservatives, both on social issues and on the economy. They are closest to French gaullists, German CDU/CSU or the UK tories (but not eurosceptical). It's just when compared to PiS they seem leftist.

leftists shouldnt be called liberals they should be called socialists :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 12:20:44 PM
Tonight the ruling elite will celebrate the new constitution, and all opposition organizations of note announced a demonstration in front of the opera house.

Except for Jobbik. Some nazis loudly planned on facebook to stop the demonstrations, namely because the former PM, who ruled when their kin was teargassed in 2006, will attend it.

Right now there is not that many people, but some nazis do manage to get to the opposition crowd.

Will tonight be a turning point, or just an other failed attempt to protest our slide down?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 12:30:11 PM
The newspapers here are writing that Hungary has banned the socialdemocrat party and will prosecute its members. True or false?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 01:03:16 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 12:30:11 PM
The newspapers here are writing that Hungary has banned the socialdemocrat party and will prosecute its members. True or false?

Nah. I think one of Sheilb's article covered that: they made the crimes of the communist regime un-expirable (though they don't define the crimes), and declared, in law, that MSZP, the Socialist party, is the legal heir of the communist regime's ruling party and shares all responsibilities for the crimes of the communists.

They do have a point to the extent that MSZP was formed by renaming MSZMP, the communist ruling party (MSZP stands for Hungarian Socialist Party, MSZMP has a -Workers- tag in addition), they inherited all the infrastructure, and elite. Hey, our PM from 1994-1998 was in the communist militia from just after (perhaps even during) the '56 revolution.

But to add to that ex-PMs story, he joined the communists after his older brother, a minor communist functionary, was hanged by the rebels in '56.


But needless to say, the law itself is crazy. While some of the old guard is still in place, the current up-front leaders were teenagers or 20-somethings in  89.

I think the play here is the same as with the media law: damocles' sword. Are we getting huge-ass fines due to the new media law? The one that basically let the authority issue those company-ruining fines basically at whim? No. Do we have a very noticable shyness regarding political coverage from all but a couple of media outlets since the new law? Definetly.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 02, 2012, 01:53:51 PM
I read an interesting article about Orban.  It was largely recollections of him from his dissident days  and, to a lesser extent, first term.  It made the whole situation really rather sad because by the sounds of it when he was a dissident he was very fun, humourous, witty, sparky and very charmingly and genuinely liberal in his attitudes.  I think he said freedom of the press was most important 'we hope never to be dull again' (I'm quoting from memory so that could be off).  It's a real shame :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 02:10:52 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2012, 01:53:51 PM
I read an interesting article about Orban.  It was largely recollections of him from his dissident days  and, to a lesser extent, first term.  It made the whole situation really rather sad because by the sounds of it when he was a dissident he was very fun, humourous, witty, sparky and very charmingly and genuinely liberal in his attitudes.  I think he said freedom of the press was most important 'we hope never to be dull again' (I'm quoting from memory so that could be off).  It's a real shame :(

Yes, he was a loud liberal. Then realized this country has no history with liberalism, nor interest in it. He was a market opening on the conservative side, and quickly took it. So from the youngster who shouted "time to pray, monks!" in the Parlaiment, he converted to a church-goer catholic, basically overnight. One of the founding members of his party left to the liberals but the rest remained.
This quick shift to national pride and biggotry gave him 1998. But he lost to leftist welfare demagogy -or so he thought- Yes, he lost to that too, but also lost because the socialists presented a technocrat, calm image with their PM candidate, and after 4 years of the arrogant bullying FIDESZ produced (the same as now, they just had less power with a mere 50% which they had in coalition with the farmers' party), the people were happy to change to that.

So, he drew the conclusions, and became this strange mix of moderate-almost-far right and the most vicious leftist populism. I would call it national socialism, because that is the best fitting term, but that's tainted.


So to summarize, yes, he was a liberal once, but after these two decades of him changing clothes for short-term political gains, I have doubts that he ever meant any of it. You just can't determine what he thinks of the world. FFS to this day, he lashes out at the EU, and proclaims some isolationist almost communist nonsense to the plebs, than days later holds a laisez faire speech to big company leaders.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: dps on January 02, 2012, 02:40:34 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 02, 2012, 02:10:52 PM

So, he drew the conclusions, and became this strange mix of moderate-almost-far right and the most vicious leftist populism.

Lol.  Sounds almost like a latter-day, east European version of William Jennings Bryan, except that Bryan was always pretty consistant in his views.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 04:05:34 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2012, 01:53:51 PM
I read an interesting article about Orban.  It was largely recollections of him from his dissident days  and, to a lesser extent, first term.  It made the whole situation really rather sad because by the sounds of it when he was a dissident he was very fun, humourous, witty, sparky and very charmingly and genuinely liberal in his attitudes.  I think he said freedom of the press was most important 'we hope never to be dull again' (I'm quoting from memory so that could be off).  It's a real shame :(

Sounds like the Kaczynskis. From a certain perspective, sometimes I wonder if they (Kaczynskis, Orban) consider their newfound ideologies to be the right one, or rather they imagine themselves, to some degree, to be these Promethean or Lucipherian figures that sacrifice their political soul to contain and rein in the chthonic forces of Eastern European nationalism and semi-fascism - they realize there is a considerable portion of people in countries like Hungary or Poland who would vote for authoritarian welfare state right-wingers (the political illiterates that lived through their formative years in the totalitarian regime), so take on this role (suppressing their actual political views) to make sure these people do not end up voting for even more evil parties, like Jobbik or the League of Polish Families in Poland.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 03, 2012, 04:34:11 AM
BBC's coverage of the protest: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16387117


Very encouraging turnout. I wonder if there will be reprecussions. "the capital's middle class fighting Orban" is the comment you get from the fanatical FIDESZ-supporters, it is to be seen if this will become a class warfare excuse for some form of punishment, but I don't think so.


The coolest part was how the government initially intended this to be a glorious celebration of the national unity their constitution created, and instead they sneaked in to the opera house, had a reduced show, and then most of them, including the Prime Minister, were smuggled out at some back door, since a few hundred or so protesters remained facing the same number of cops, chanting "We are waiting for you!" "Come out!"

On the grim news side, government sources told Index, a leading online news site, that indeed they are planning to get their hand on the euro reserves of the central bank, and spend it on the nationalized debt of the various county municipalities, and "economic stimulus"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 03, 2012, 04:50:16 AM
A rhetoric the government took up a few months ago was "war against national debt"

It is of course does  not look good that according to recent statistics of the central bank, our national debt has reached record highs at about 82% of the GDP (and our bonds barely sell at 10%).

But no worries, the PM's spokeperson (he has hiso wn, and he is such a smug asshole I think he will be the first to hang if there is a revolution) solved the problem. He said that "national debt is on the decrease. Everyone knows this, everyone sees this." The statistics of the central bank are "unprofessional" and he is "not convinced that they serve the country's interests"

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.168ora.hu%2Fdb%2F01%2F5A%2Fleadpic1-4896-d0001215A849c9d0ce9e4.jpg&hash=4999884d9a8ccbb121455fa3dbf2acf4531de8f8)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 03, 2012, 05:28:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 03, 2012, 04:34:11 AM
BBC's coverage of the protest: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16387117


Very encouraging turnout. I wonder if there will be reprecussions. "the capital's middle class fighting Orban" is the comment you get from the fanatical FIDESZ-supporters, it is to be seen if this will become a class warfare excuse for some form of punishment, but I don't think so.

Uhm, that's a jab? The middle class is the healthiest core of the society. Attacking someone as "middle class" (outside of certain London or Boston dwelling Bohemian Languishites) is retarded.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 03, 2012, 05:29:52 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 03, 2012, 04:50:16 AM
A rhetoric the government took up a few months ago was "war against national debt"

It is of course does  not look good that according to recent statistics of the central bank, our national debt has reached record highs at about 82% of the GDP (and our bonds barely sell at 10%).

But no worries, the PM's spokeperson (he has hiso wn, and he is such a smug asshole I think he will be the first to hang if there is a revolution) solved the problem. He said that "national debt is on the decrease. Everyone knows this, everyone sees this." The statistics of the central bank are "unprofessional" and he is "not convinced that they serve the country's interests"

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.168ora.hu%2Fdb%2F01%2F5A%2Fleadpic1-4896-d0001215A849c9d0ce9e4.jpg&hash=4999884d9a8ccbb121455fa3dbf2acf4531de8f8)

:D

What's with the hair? Is this like a hipster skinhead do? :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 03, 2012, 05:32:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 03, 2012, 05:28:11 AM
Uhm, that's a jab? The middle class is the healthiest core of the society. Attacking someone as "middle class" (outside of certain London or Boston dwelling Bohemian Languishites) is retarded.  :lol:
I could be wrong but  I think it's like an attack on a 'liberal metropolitan elite' which works in loads of countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 03, 2012, 05:33:56 AM
Yes it's :Joos
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 03, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
Austrian ORF comment the current developments on their website.

They have an additional article about the decline of the cultural scene.

Bullet point summary:
- A few years ago, Hungary was a rising star in the arts scene
- Orban has slashed budgets for state run cultural institutions by 1/3 in 2011, plans another 1/6 in 2012
- Museums, theaters, libraries close down due to lack of funding
- movie industry has ground to a halt
- government plans new museum's quarter in Budapest, with 100,000 EUR of government money and millions from the EU
- nationalist artists have been hired to illustrate the new constitution as per the government's tradionalist vision

One of the most important stages has a new head, a renowned right-wing antisemite. He wants to "clean up the diseased liberal hegemony" in the stage business and "declare war on the lowbrow entertainment industry." Further he wants to rename the stage from "New Stage" to "Hinterland Stage", to symbolize "the repressed Hungarianism under the socialist-liberal yoke."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 03, 2012, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 03, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
One of the most important stages has a new head, a renowned right-wing antisemite. He wants to "clean up the diseased liberal hegemony" in the stage business and "declare war on the lowbrow entertainment industry." Further he wants to rename the stage from "New Stage" to "Hinterland Stage", to symbolize "the repressed Hungarianism under the socialist-liberal yoke."

Does this mean more nudity or less? :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on January 03, 2012, 05:31:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 03, 2012, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 03, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
One of the most important stages has a new head, a renowned right-wing antisemite. He wants to "clean up the diseased liberal hegemony" in the stage business and "declare war on the lowbrow entertainment industry." Further he wants to rename the stage from "New Stage" to "Hinterland Stage", to symbolize "the repressed Hungarianism under the socialist-liberal yoke."

Does this mean more nudity or less? :hmm:

Sounds like less.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 07:19:28 AM
EURHUF is at record high, CDS at 700 points. Great to be Hungarian today!



NOT.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 07:52:40 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 07:19:28 AM
EURHUF is at record high, CDS at 700 points. Great to be Hungarian today!



NOT.

Fuck you, your shitty ways are contaminating PLN rates as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 08:10:06 AM
Financial Times effectively calls the Hungarian constitution changes a coup:

QuoteDemocracy under threat in Budapest

Months before his death in December, Václav Havel, former Czech president and leader of his country's anti-communist revolution, signed a petition decrying the destruction of democracy in Hungary. His warning, which echoed those of others, including this newspaper, went unheeded. A country at Europe's geographical heart has suffered what amounts to a constitutional coup.

Hungary's new constitution, which took effect on January 1, combined with a flurry of "basic" laws rushed through at the end of 2011, has all but removed checks and balances to the power of Hungary's government and ruling party. Meanwhile, the electoral rules have been changed in a way that could keep the party responsible, prime minister Viktor Orbán's Fidesz, in power for years to come.

The legislative changes give the government sweeping influence over the media, the judiciary, the central bank and audit and budget watchdogs. In several cases, it will wield power via committees stuffed with Fidesz appointees, their heads installed for nine years and replaceable only by a two-thirds parliamentary vote. In the legal sphere, a close friend of Mr Orban has power to appoint judges. The constitutional court's powers have been curtailed.

Electoral boundaries, meanwhile, have been redrawn in a way that favours Fidesz. One think-tank calculates that under these rules, the party would have won the last two elections, which it lost. Fidesz has gone too far in seeking to impose state regulation of religion, reducing the number of officially registered sects to 14. These do not include any world religions other than Christianity and Judaism.

Much of what the government has done is incompatible with Hungary's membership of the European Union. Brussels, and Hungary's fellow EU states, should join the US in robust condemnation. It should be made clear to Mr Orban that his actions are undermining Hungary's application for much-needed financial support from the EU and the International Monetary Fund.

It also exposes a flaw in the EU's legal framework. While new entrants must prove compliance with democratic norms, there is no comeback if they subsequently fall short. As the EU expands to countries where democracy has shallower roots, this lack should be addressed. Hungary has become the first EU state to challenge the assumption that democracy is irreversible. Amid Europe's economic woes, it may not be the last.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a5fe09ee-3604-11e1-ae04-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1iUiwClge
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 04, 2012, 08:18:20 AM
So, are they going to start a war to revise Triannon anytime soon?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 08:23:09 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 04, 2012, 08:18:20 AM
So, are they going to start a war to revise Triannon anytime soon?

They have already given voting rights to all with Hungarian citizenship regardless of where they live, and easy access to said citizenship to everyone with Hungarian nationality, if you consider that a start.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 04, 2012, 08:24:57 AM
FT raises a good point.

Quite a few user comments point to the sanctions enacted in 2000 on Austria by the EU when Jörg Haider became minority partner of a coalition with the conservatives (up to EU sending officials to observe whether democracy was ending in the country) and they - rightfully - ask why so little is done or said about what's happening in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 08:28:53 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 04, 2012, 08:24:57 AM
FT raises a good point.

Quite a few user comments point to the sanctions enacted in 2000 on Austria by the EU when Jörg Haider became minority partner of a coalition with the conservatives (up to EU sending officials to observe whether democracy was ending in the country) and they - rightfully - ask why so little is done or said about what's happening in Hungary.

Probably because our budget is so fucked up we might collapse even if we receive EU/IMF help, let alone if we get some kind of punishment instead.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 08:43:01 AM
There's a difference between a minority party of a coalition and a party that got over 50percent of the popular vote.  The former's less important but easier to sanction. How can the unelected EU leadership be able to sanction the democratic choice of the majority of Hungarians?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 08:43:01 AM
There's a difference between a minority party of a coalition and a party that got over 50percent of the popular vote.  The former's less important but easier to sanction. How can the unelected EU leadership be able to sanction the democratic choice of the majority of Hungarians?

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Austria's ostracism was (perhaps unwisely) caused by a questionable party simply being brought into the government - it did not manage to enact any policies. Here we are talking about sanctioning a country for adopting certain policies which are ostensibly in violation of the Hungary's treaty obligations (including the European Convention of Human Rights) which imo is much more justificable than punishing the people for merely electing a "wrong" party.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 09:42:30 AM
That's one of my several concerns - we need help badly but the EU cannot let Orban bring back the velved dictatorship we had during Kadar until '89. The economic portion of the European unity is crumbling, they simply cannot let the political portion be compromised by a member state turning into a semi-dictatorship one party state. Credibility equals survival now for the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 10:13:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 09:29:04 AMI don't think this is a fair comparison. Austria's ostracism was (perhaps unwisely) caused by a questionable party simply being brought into the government - it did not manage to enact any policies. Here we are talking about sanctioning a country for adopting certain policies which are ostensibly in violation of the Hungary's treaty obligations (including the European Convention of Human Rights) which imo is much more justificable than punishing the people for merely electing a "wrong" party.
I think the Austrian ostracism was wrong, I'm not sure that it would be right in Hungary's case either.

The core difference for me is that Austria was sanctioned because the government brought in a questionable party.  If Hungary were to be sanctioned it would be because over 50% of the electorate voted in a questionable party, which is now enacted its policies.  The people elected the 'wrong' party and now they're delivering what they promised.  That's not the sort of territory I think the EU should head into and is also anti-democratic of itself. 

If this happens then there's a clear precedent.  How anti-democratic must policies be before the EU intervenes?  Is it the EU's role to regulated the checks and balances of internal constitutions (this would after all be an enormous leap) and determine if, say, the independent judiciary is being undermined?

I'm also not sure what the Treaty basis is, what do you think it would be?

As to the ECHR I think that's fair - and I do think the prosecutor being able to choose their judge is against right to a fair trial - but that's for individuals to take to the Court, which is a long process.  Until that happens the ECHR can't do anything and is, anyway, separate from the eU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 10:34:08 AM
Ok, Sheilbh, I saw the "we delivered what we promised" excuse appear in foreign media, made by the government. That's bullshit.

They didn't promise SHIT. That's how they won. They told everything would be better, that there is enough money the socialists are just stealing it. Oh, and that they will protect private pensions, lol.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 04, 2012, 10:38:03 AM
Well, I worded myself poorly - I'm against sanctions as punishment of an electorate's democratic choice . . . people have the right to be stupid.

However, I find it regrettable that there's hardly any coverage in mainstream media (at least from what I see in Austria/Germany) or comments from important politicians abroad.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 10:41:21 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 04, 2012, 10:38:03 AMHowever, I find it regrettable that there's hardly any coverage in mainstream media (at least from what I see in Austria/Germany) or comments from important politicians abroad.
It's getting covered in the UK but not enough, in my view.  But it is disappointing that the main condemnation from politicians has come from the US.  Barosso's made some delicately threatening remarks in an exchange of letters (basically if this goes on the EU won't help you with your debt and the IMF).

Edit:  And fair enough Tamas.  Did they not even vaguely hint at redesigning the state or a new constitution?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 10:43:09 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 04, 2012, 10:38:03 AM
Well, I worded myself poorly - I'm against sanctions as punishment of an electorate's democratic choice . . . people have the right to be stupid.

However, I find it regrettable that there's hardly any coverage in mainstream media (at least from what I see in Austria/Germany) or comments from important politicians abroad.

I find it quite surprising. Here it gets reported on the front page of the biggest daily (that is not a tabloid).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 10:45:50 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 04, 2012, 10:13:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 04, 2012, 09:29:04 AMI don't think this is a fair comparison. Austria's ostracism was (perhaps unwisely) caused by a questionable party simply being brought into the government - it did not manage to enact any policies. Here we are talking about sanctioning a country for adopting certain policies which are ostensibly in violation of the Hungary's treaty obligations (including the European Convention of Human Rights) which imo is much more justificable than punishing the people for merely electing a "wrong" party.
I think the Austrian ostracism was wrong, I'm not sure that it would be right in Hungary's case either.

The core difference for me is that Austria was sanctioned because the government brought in a questionable party.  If Hungary were to be sanctioned it would be because over 50% of the electorate voted in a questionable party, which is now enacted its policies.  The people elected the 'wrong' party and now they're delivering what they promised.  That's not the sort of territory I think the EU should head into and is also anti-democratic of itself. 

If this happens then there's a clear precedent.  How anti-democratic must policies be before the EU intervenes?  Is it the EU's role to regulated the checks and balances of internal constitutions (this would after all be an enormous leap) and determine if, say, the independent judiciary is being undermined?

I'm also not sure what the Treaty basis is, what do you think it would be?

As to the ECHR I think that's fair - and I do think the prosecutor being able to choose their judge is against right to a fair trial - but that's for individuals to take to the Court, which is a long process.  Until that happens the ECHR can't do anything and is, anyway, separate from the eU.

They are not delivering what they promised. They are destroying the democratic state in Hungary.

And the obligation to uphold the ECHR is one of the requirements of joining the EU. While the ECJ has no institutional oversight, I don't see how it would be questionable for the EU to impose sanctions over a blatant and sweeping disregard for its rules like this.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 04, 2012, 10:47:57 AM
There was talk of a new constitution AFTER their victory.  But of course there was no mention of abolishing basic rules of modern democracy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 05, 2012, 01:24:09 AM
While surfing around on The Onion I found this gem:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/archaeologists-discover-worlds-first-guy-named-mar,6744/

QuoteArchaeologists Discover World's First Guy Named Marty

SZEGED, HUNGARY—University of Toronto archaeologists excavating a prehistoric settlement near the Serbian border announced Tuesday that they had unearthed the remains of the earliest known Marty, dating back nearly 9,000 years. "What makes this a significant find is the ancient Marty's features, which suggest he bore a striking resemblance to the Marty of today," said expedition leader Claribel Mollet, who determined the identity of the prehistoric man after carefully analyzing the stoop of his shoulders and the elongated distance between his eye sockets. "At the same site we've uncovered what appear to be dice used for an ancient game of craps, leading us to believe this specimen predates the Martys' split with ancestors of the modern Rick, who eventually moved westward." In 1998, researchers thought they had discovered the first Marty in Azerbaijan, but carbon-dating test results later revealed they had in fact discovered an early Eddie who just looked like a Marty.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 04:23:30 AM
@ Syt :lol:


Ok so the EURHUF rate is at record highs again today.

Assuming that we DO sign SOMETHING with the IMF, I want to drive to Austria, or fly to London, and open an account there, as safe haven.

Any tips? I would need an account I can access from the Interwebs, and can tie down the money on it on some kind of savings.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:54:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 04:23:30 AM
@ Syt :lol:


Ok so the EURHUF rate is at record highs again today.

Assuming that we DO sign SOMETHING with the IMF, I want to drive to Austria, or fly to London, and open an account there, as safe haven.

Any tips? I would need an account I can access from the Interwebs, and can tie down the money on it on some kind of savings.

I don't think you can do it. I know I had to close down my Belgian account when I was moving back from my secondment in Brussels - under EU law you have to have an account with a place of your residence I believe.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 06:03:45 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 04:23:30 AM
@ Syt :lol:


Ok so the EURHUF rate is at record highs again today.

Assuming that we DO sign SOMETHING with the IMF, I want to drive to Austria, or fly to London, and open an account there, as safe haven.

Any tips? I would need an account I can access from the Interwebs, and can tie down the money on it on some kind of savings.
I've no idea to be honest.  There are expat accounts offered by UK banks, normally based somewhere like Jersey (possibly to avoid rules like Marti just mentioned), but from what I remember you need a lot of money to open one.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 09:04:13 AM
Hm, thanks, Austria it is then. Supposedly a lot Magyars have been evacuating their savings there.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 05, 2012, 10:55:16 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 09:04:13 AM
Hm, thanks, Austria it is then. Supposedly a lot Magyars have been evacuating their savings there.

I knew they would come crawling back.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fetc.usf.edu%2Fclipart%2F2000%2F2073%2Fau-hungary-flag_2_lg.gif&hash=f2bfdece9a4a2bbf64ee80eae1b16c40366383cc)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 12:06:00 PM
 :lol:

it may prove to be going overboard if we do get the IMF deal, but the general sentiment in the country, at least among the people I hear and read, is perhaps the gloomiest I have ever experienced, and that is quite a thing when you talk about Hungarians. It's quite clear to me that the EU intends the IMF loan as a weapon to coerce Orban into folding his plans of becoming a dictator, but doing so is so against his personality, that receiving that god damn loan appears near impossible.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 04:48:48 PM
Just read that Hungarian currency market is pretty much in the state of panic, with people selling forints en masse and opening bank accounts in Austria. The government is warning it is illegal and will crack down on it. Tamas, you may be too late. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 04:55:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 04:48:48 PM
Just read that Hungarian currency market is pretty much in the state of panic, with people selling forints en masse and opening bank accounts in Austria. The government is warning it is illegal and will crack down on it. Tamas, you may be too late. :(

Nah I didnt hear about the making it illegal part yet.
Either we get the IMF deal or the government sells the euro reserves of the central bank, or both, either way, there should be a brief strengthening of our currency, which will see me appear in an Austrian bank.
The other scenario is that we collapse without an interim strengthening and me and my family are fucked.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PM
Tamas, who would win if they held elections today?

Also, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:10:32 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

The people at Paradox are like a bunch of people here in Poland. They are not worth the bullets you'd have to put in their brains.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:11:50 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.

Nice. Btw, I love how the example of the story about an expat opening a bank account abroad uses a Hungarian. :D

Prophetic?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 05, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
Convert your forints to euros and stash them in your mattress.  Serious suggestion.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 05, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
Convert your forints to euros and stash them in your mattress.  Serious suggestion.

According to the news I read, there is a shortage of Euros in Hungary right now so that may be undoable.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PM
Tamas, who would win if they held elections today?

FIDESZ, Jobbik second :P
But, like, almost 70% percent of people are undecided in the latest polls.

Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PM
Also, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?

Could be. Hard to tell really.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:16:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 05, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
Convert your forints to euros and stash them in your mattress.  Serious suggestion.

According to the news I read, there is a shortage of Euros in Hungary right now so that may be undoable.

It's not that severe. Euro is just at record highs against the forint.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on January 05, 2012, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.

By the looks of things, it might be better to empty your savings account & buy gold/silver just in case it was problematic transferring to another bank in another country if things are really bad and there was a run on the currency you had the savings in.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:19:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:16:58 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 05, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
Convert your forints to euros and stash them in your mattress.  Serious suggestion.

According to the news I read, there is a shortage of Euros in Hungary right now so that may be undoable.

It's not that severe. Euro is just at record highs against the forint.

I hope you guys collapse fast and something is done. You are making the whole region look bad.

Btw, HSBC is predicting zloty going up against euro and dollar by 20-30% during 2012. I wonder if this is real or are they just unloading some huge quantities of zloty futures soon.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:19:51 PM
Quote from: PJL on January 05, 2012, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.

By the looks of things, it might be better to empty your savings account & buy gold/silver just in case it was problematic transferring to another bank in another country if things are really bad and there was a run on the currency you had the savings in.

Isn't gold about to crash?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on January 05, 2012, 05:23:26 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 05, 2012, 05:19:51 PM
Quote from: PJL on January 05, 2012, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 05:01:37 PMAlso, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?
I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.

By the looks of things, it might be better to empty your savings account & buy gold/silver just in case it was problematic transferring to another bank in another country if things are really bad and there was a run on the currency you had the savings in.

Isn't gold about to crash?


Possibly in a normal currency, but not in a dodgy one. You might lose a bit, bit not as much as keeping the savings in such a currency. If there's one thing history tells us, is that nothing moves faster than a currency collapse. Including the speed of light...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
Aren't Austrian banks those with most exposure to Hungary? If Hungary goes bankrupt, they may get problems too. So maybe an Austrian bank is not optimal for you, Tamas.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:48:48 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
Aren't Austrian banks those with most exposure to Hungary? If Hungary goes bankrupt, they may get problems too. So maybe an Austrian bank is not optimal for you, Tamas.

I really have no idea what to do. :(

If the situation somehow turns around, there would be significant losses if I had the money in foreign currency.
On the other hand, if there is a collapse, the future of my family may be jeopardized.

Very uncertain situation and I am getting more and more furious by the day to be dragged into this by a generation of post-socialist cowards posing as leaders.

We will make Greece look like a success story, just watch.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:55:03 PM
Despite living in what is probably the safest Eurozone country at the moment, I also wonder how to protect against a possible currency change. I consider buying real estate. I am late with that though because the prices have already risen considerably in the last year or so.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on January 05, 2012, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:48:48 PM
We will make Greece look like a success story, just watch.

That doesn't seem very farfetched.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 06, 2012, 12:31:44 AM
Is that true?  That Orban is just a right wing version of the left-wingers of Scandinavia?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on January 06, 2012, 12:38:45 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

They let post on the internet after shooting all those people?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:14:54 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:55:03 PM
Despite living in what is probably the safest Eurozone country at the moment, I also wonder how to protect against a possible currency change. I consider buying real estate. I am late with that though because the prices have already risen considerably in the last year or so.

I have my cash in euro, dollars and zloty (about one third each) and the rest of my assets is in real estate (two flats, one with mortgage; and some silly agricultural land which I bought in case someone wants to build a highway somewhere in the Eastern Poland one day). :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:20:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.

The people we need to take away voting rights from are the ones who are not net contributors to the state budget :contract:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 03:31:30 AM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:55:03 PM
Despite living in what is probably the safest Eurozone country at the moment, I also wonder how to protect against a possible currency change. I consider buying real estate. I am late with that though because the prices have already risen considerably in the last year or so.

They have been depressed for quite some time in Germany though, the past decade or two IIRC, might be the early stages of a substantial readjustment  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:55:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:20:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.

The people we need to take away voting rights from are the ones who are not net contributors to the state budget :contract:

See, with idiotic statements like this you prove that Eastern Europeans can't have good things.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:58:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:55:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:20:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.

The people we need to take away voting rights from are the ones who are not net contributors to the state budget :contract:

See, with idiotic statements like this you prove that Eastern Europeans can't have good things.

I just hate rampant populism buying votes via state spending.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 06, 2012, 04:01:56 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 03:31:30 AMThey have been depressed for quite some time in Germany though, the past decade or two IIRC, might be the early stages of a substantial readjustment  :hmm:
Our population is predicted to decline massively over the next few decades. Long-term real estate except for the very best locations (which I can't afford) doesn't seem such a great investment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:22:22 AM
I'll hold off buying my holiday home in the Harz then  :cool:

Yes, the demographics for Germany are looking very different to what the UK faces.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:26:21 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:22:22 AM

Yes, the demographics for Germany are looking very different to what the UK faces.

which is?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 04:31:20 AM
Population growth.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 06, 2012, 04:34:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:55:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 03:20:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 05, 2012, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 05, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

I'll might head there and kick some ass. Fuckin' rightwing teenager scumbags.

I love that "Easy1" dude from "Reichskomissariat Norwegen" who says that what's happening in Hungary is basically the same thing the left wingers do in Norway and Sweden. :lol:

Hey, these idiots are everywhere. Just listen to our own szmik who thinks that Poland is really in shambles and what we need is return to the gold standard and take voting rights away from women.

The people we need to take away voting rights from are the ones who are not net contributors to the state budget :contract:

See, with idiotic statements like this you prove that Eastern Europeans can't have good things.

Cause none of your "boyfriends" would get to vote? :console:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:46:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:26:21 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:22:22 AM

Yes, the demographics for Germany are looking very different to what the UK faces.

which is?

As Sheilbh says  :D

The total fertility rate has been rising for some years, reaching 2.00 in 2009 according to this source http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=uk+total+fertility+rate , and is continuing to rise. There is also considerable net immigration of about 250,000 per annum. Meanwhile, being British  :bowler:, we are failing to build many new houses , only 100k housing starts a year IIRC.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:51:07 AM
And are you managing to meet this population growth with economic growth ie new jobs?
Unless I catch up with my German VERY quickly, your island may be my only chance for a decent life.  :hmm:



BTW, A meeting started between Orban, Matolcsy (the finance minister), Fellegi (who is leading our delegation on the IMF negotiations), and Simor (central bank prez); about two hours ago.

Simor left it an hour ago :bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 05:02:56 AM
We've not had the growth recently. But things will get better. I think London's still churning out jobs quicker than it can churn people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 05:10:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:51:07 AM
And are you managing to meet this population growth with economic growth ie new jobs?
Unless I catch up with my German VERY quickly, your island may be my only chance for a decent life.  :hmm:



BTW, A meeting started between Orban, Matolcsy (the finance minister), Fellegi (who is leading our delegation on the IMF negotiations), and Simor (central bank prez); about two hours ago.

Simor left it an hour ago :bleeding:

Your government officials' names suggest they are Ferengi. That would explain a lot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 05:46:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 04:51:07 AM
And are you managing to meet this population growth with economic growth ie new jobs?

We are having a recession, it is a bit crap atm, but the recession will go away.............it is different to what you fear is happening in Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
The IMF requirements have  been allegedly leaked.

Apparently, they want a sustainable budget. The nerves these imperialist jewish pigdogs have!  :mad:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 09:47:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
Apparently, they want a sustainable budget.

What?!  PEOPLE OF EUROPE RISE UP!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 06, 2012, 09:51:16 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
The IMF requirements have  been allegedly leaked.

Apparently, they want a sustainable budget. The nerves these imperialist jewish pigdogs have!  :mad:

A sustainable budget? Why not a space elevator as well? If the peoples of Europe wanted sustainable budgets they would have voted for them decades ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 09:53:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 09:47:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
Apparently, they want a sustainable budget.

What?!  PEOPLE OF EUROPE RISE UP!
Hey, don't associate us with this crazy :P

Interesting perspective by BBC Business Correspondent.  Hungary as symptom of Eurozone crisis:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16439644

I read that the yields on Austrian banks are reaching new highs because of fears about their loans to Hungary so it's cycling back.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 09:55:20 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 06, 2012, 04:46:08 AM
As Sheilbh says  :D

The total fertility rate has been rising for some years, reaching 2.00 in 2009 according to this source http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=uk+total+fertility+rate , and is continuing to rise. There is also considerable net immigration of about 250,000 per annum. Meanwhile, being British  :bowler:, we are failing to build many new houses , only 100k housing starts a year IIRC.


But you Brits move abroad at huge rates.  You can just start new colonies someplace.  Like in Germany to live in all the  houses vacated by the Master Race Baby Bust.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 10:00:12 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 09:55:20 AM
But you Brits move abroad at huge rates.  You can just start new colonies someplace.  Like in Germany to live in all the  houses vacated by the Master Race Baby Bust.
We're waiting for the bits of Greece, Spain and Italy that we haven't already colonised (like ants) to empty out :mmm:

Given Italian demographics I imagine Tuscany will just be a sunny bit of the home counties in a few years :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 06, 2012, 12:36:48 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

That is an interesting arguement: their policies must be good because they are still in power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:45:37 PM
Two rather good articles from the Economist's tomorrow edition:

To Viktor too many spoils - Europe could do more to stop Hungary's erosion of democratic norms (http://www.economist.com/node/21542414)

The long march of Fidesz Both inside and outside Hungary, alarm is growing over the ruling party's steps to entrench its powers (http://www.economist.com/node/21542422)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 12:46:26 PM
Well that is basically British democracy. But we have a very independent judiciary, an aggressive media and no written constitution to casually replace.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 01:59:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.

:bleeding: :frusty:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on January 06, 2012, 02:02:41 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 01:59:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.

:bleeding: :frusty:
Just the kind of emoticons a leftist agitator would use :shifty:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 02:32:15 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 12:46:26 PM
Well that is basically British democracy. But we have a very independent judiciary, an aggressive media and no written constitution to casually replace.

And you have long tradition. It's like having a 200 yo lawn vs. one that just got seeded few years ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 02:45:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2012, 02:32:15 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 06, 2012, 12:46:26 PM
Well that is basically British democracy. But we have a very independent judiciary, an aggressive media and no written constitution to casually replace.

And you have long tradition. It's like having a 200 yo lawn vs. one that just got seeded few years ago.

yes
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on January 06, 2012, 04:11:20 PM
I saw a movie once where a Hungarian lawn was seeded.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 06, 2012, 11:59:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 01:59:43 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.

:bleeding: :frusty:

I have to correct: it's also liberal right-wingers (pro-free market) complaining the righteous conservative right-wingers of Orban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 07, 2012, 01:06:28 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 06, 2012, 04:11:20 PM
I saw a movie once where a Hungarian lawn was seeded.

^_^
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 07, 2012, 04:34:32 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 07, 2012, 01:06:28 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 06, 2012, 04:11:20 PM
I saw a movie once where a Hungarian lawn was seeded.

^_^

Alfred's account has been hacked either by Caliga or Ed Anger  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 09, 2012, 12:25:12 PM
On the request of our resident Polack Shrill Machine, an update:

the forint stabilized a bit below the historic lows, as the government makes gestures which may indicate they might comply with the IMF.

Of course, the IMF does not appear to be starting loan negotiations until some law-cancellations or changings happen. Sadly, they seem to concentrate on the central bank law, which is far from being the only one letting Orban and his gorillas stay in power even if Teh People don't want them.

Orban did appear to be setting up rhetorics for yet another 180 degrees turn in his policies, which will be far from the first one, even during his current governance. In an interview he outlined, in very very, very broad terms, the stuff the IMF is allegedly demanding. Of course, he outlined these as the plans of his own government, plans which have always been clear and pre-determined throughout their governance.

We have always been at war with Eurasia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 09, 2012, 12:29:19 PM
I am not sure what I think about the Beast called "Global Markets". On one hand, it brings down would be despots, like Orban and Berlusconi. On the other hand, it seems completely devoid of any morality and is more of a force of nature. The thing is, the age of sovereign states is over - there is noone in the world who can oppose that Beast, whether with a democratic mandate or not.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 12:44:53 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 09, 2012, 12:29:19 PM
I am not sure what I think about the Beast called "Global Markets". On one hand, it brings down would be despots, like Orban and Berlusconi.
Well the ECB and EU had a hand in bringing down Berlusconi.

QuoteThe thing is, the age of sovereign states is over - there is noone in the world who can oppose that Beast, whether with a democratic mandate or not.
Nonsense.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 12:49:17 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 12:44:53 PM
Nonsense.

All you really have to do to keep global marketeers from having power over you is not need money from them to bail you out.

Sovereign states are perfectly capable of not going into massive debt if that is something they would like to avoid.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 12:49:17 PM
All you really have to do to keep global marketeers from having power over you is not need money from them to bail you out.

Sovereign states are perfectly capable of not going into massive debt if that is something they would like to avoid.
Many of the global marketeers have themselves been bailed out.  In the case of Hungary it's the IMF and the EU that's pushing for change - organisations of governments - not Central European banks that are just trying to cut their exposure.

In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.  But I don't think the nation state is supinely surrendering to the global markets and they certainly don't have to, it's a choice.  I'm also always very suspicious of whiggish claims as to the strength of globalisation as some unstoppable force.  In the past twenty years or so we've only just surpassed the globalisation of pre-WW1.

I think Marti's right that the fundamental division in our politics now isn't left-right so much as globalists-nationalists (roughly, I think you've argued this Marti).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 01:28:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.

Of course.  You only have to do what international finance wants if you want their money. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 09, 2012, 01:37:52 PM
The Paradox forums keep telling me that things are ok, and that Orban is doing their best to save the country within democratic means, vocal naysayers in opposition and media notwithstanding. Also, 18 months is too short a period to assess their economic policies for success or failure. So I don't know, what Tamas keeps complaining about. :p
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
This struck me as very interesting:
http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/from-here-to-eternity-hungarian-style/

Two things in particular intrigue me. 
One is the link between deficits and the end of consumption booms.  I'd like to read more on that at some point, he says there's no theory for it though.
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.  It's not good in Hungary, or any of the Euro-periphery (I think Spain's an exception).  I can't imagine what's going to happen in a country like Greece with near 50% youth unemployment, and an aging, shriking population.  For that matter the demographics aren't very good in the Euro-core (with the exception of France) and even success stories like Poland.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2012, 06:55:57 PM
Very much what Valmy said.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 07:56:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 01:28:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.

Of course.  You only have to do what international finance wants if you want theirto have any money.

FYPFY  ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 08:03:43 AM
Final fiscal numbers for 2011 are at hand.

We were to keep to a 3% budget deficit. We did.

Thanks to the pensionnationalization. Because without that money (which is mostly spent already) we had a 6.5% deficit.

And so the big question: what the fuck will we do this year? What else to rob? Besides bank accounts? What?!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on January 10, 2012, 08:06:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 08:03:43 AM


And so the big question: what the fuck will we do this year? What else to rob? Besides bank accounts? What?!

Oh, I could think of ways to raise that revenue.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 08:36:21 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
This struck me as very interesting:
http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/from-here-to-eternity-hungarian-style/

Two things in particular intrigue me. 
One is the link between deficits and the end of consumption booms.  I'd like to read more on that at some point, he says there's no theory for it though.
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.  It's not good in Hungary, or any of the Euro-periphery (I think Spain's an exception).  I can't imagine what's going to happen in a country like Greece with near 50% youth unemployment, and an aging, shriking population.  For that matter the demographics aren't very good in the Euro-core (with the exception of France) and even success stories like Poland.

Very interesting article.
I am subscribing to his deficit idea quite easily (regarding end of consumption booms) because it does echo of what happened here, and  I think the whole phenomenom is just coded into the present economic and political enviroment, which can only be avoided by responsible leaders (something we lack badly).

Also, -with dread- I tend to agree with his long term analysis and conclusion.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 08:42:58 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 08:03:43 AM
Final fiscal numbers for 2011 are at hand.

We were to keep to a 3% budget deficit. We did.

Thanks to the pensionnationalization. Because without that money (which is mostly spent already) we had a 6.5% deficit.

And so the big question: what the fuck will we do this year? What else to rob? Besides bank accounts? What?!

Nationalize the world-famous porn industry? :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 10, 2012, 09:17:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 07:56:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 09, 2012, 01:28:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.

Of course.  You only have to do what international finance wants if you want theirto have any money.

FYPFY  ;)

Nonsense.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 09:45:00 AM
It's not possible to run a modern country without borrowing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 10, 2012, 09:50:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 09:45:00 AM
It's not possible to run a modern country without borrowing.

You're moving the target.  There are plenty of countries that have money without borrowing.

Before you responded you realized that (this is why they pay you the big stacks of zlotys), which is why you changed it to "modern" countries.  But even "modern" countries have experienced times when they were not running deficits.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 09:50:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 09:45:00 AM
It's not possible to run a modern country without borrowing.

without borrowing for running costs like welfare and pensions? :yeahright: No modern state will survive, then
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:53:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 09:45:00 AM
It's not possible to run a modern country without borrowing.

Then modernity is a recipe for failure.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.

The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.

Of course the fact the young people who are around are shut out of the work force doesn't help.  How can it be so that in countries with low birth rates and low retirement ages that there are no jobs for young people?  When people retire do jobs just cease to exist with no replacement needed?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:02:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.

The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.

The poorest strata (called gypsies) did heed the call though and are breeding like rabbits.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:05:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:02:46 AM
The poorest strata (called gypsies) did heed the call though and are breeding like rabbits.

They are?  Then what is the birth rate for ethnic Hungarians then?  1 kid for every 8 women?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 09, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.

The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.

Why the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:

Besides, people are having enough kids. Europe is overcrowded. The problem is that people live longer so the old retirement models do not really work anymore. The solution is not for people to breed more.  :huh:

Again, you are usually a smart, reasonable guy, Valmy, but sometimes you say stupid shit like a Tim.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:13:42 AM
Also, except for a brief period of baby boom in the 1950s, I don't think the Western world has really seen the demographic explosion compared to which we are now supposedly seeing a decline.

Sure, back in the old days, people were having many more children than today, but both child and female birth mortality was much higher, and the human life expectancy was lower, due to wars and other stuff like that. (My dad, born in 1935, was the youngest of 13 children. Only he and one of his brother had any kids though because everyone else either died in infancy or didn't make it through the war - so it's no different than having 2 kids today).

The population exploded in the 1950s because people were still breeding like in the 1940s and 1930s but scientific advances increased life expectancy significantly, but shortly after that the human replacement figures went back to normal, because people adjusted their breeding behaviour to a new situation.

The population is aging because people do not die at 50 anymore, but people expect to retire at 60 like 30 years ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 10:16:23 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.
Well one reason is that Euros often hear this in the context of Eurabia, so we switch off.  But it's not a Euro-wide problem.  I think Scandinavia, the UK and France are all okay and, until recently, so were Spain and Ireland.  It's been a problem for a few countries in Old Europe - Germany and Italy especially - but the worst demographics are in New Europe, which is rather odd.

QuoteWhy the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:
I think the idea that your kids will be there to support you is a big part of having tbem.  It may not take the grand social analysis but it amounts to the same.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:13:42 AM
Also, except for a brief period of baby boom in the 1950s, I don't think the Western world has really seen the demographic explosion compared to which we are now supposedly seeing a decline.

I certainly think a baby boom would be disastrous.  I am just talking about replacement level, enough to keep the home fires burning and the pension money coming in.  If the Western World had historically reproduced at modern Germany levels there would be no Western World today.  If everybody was having two kids today they would be ideal.

1.8-2.2 is the sweet spot, anything higher or lower there are going to be problems...but granted lower is probably much better in the short term than higher.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 10:16:23 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 09:55:49 AM
The demographic one is a puzzler.  The Euros had been hearing for decades their societies were going to melt down if they did not have more kids to support their systems but they do not seem to have been particularly moved to action by that fact.
Well one reason is that Euros often hear this in the context of Eurabia, so we switch off.  But it's not a Euro-wide problem.  I think Scandinavia, the UK and France are all okay and, until recently, so were Spain and Ireland.  It's been a problem for a few countries in Old Europe - Germany and Italy especially - but the worst demographics are in New Europe, which is rather odd.

QuoteWhy the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:
I think the idea that your kids will be there to support you is a big part of having tbem.  It may not take the grand social analysis but it amounts to the same.

I don't think so. I think people in the West now largely marry and decide to have kids for personal/emotional levels. I don't think many people, at least conciously, make these decisions in terms of investment/security.

This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:21:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:08:39 AM
Why the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:

I am not sure where race came into this.  I am talking about sane national policies not some weird...whatever you are talking about.  Having shrinking generations is not a bad thing.  Having tons of kids is, of course, even worse as that tends to create poverty and crime.  But having too few and you face a pretty bleak future.

How is that stupid shit?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:22:40 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:13:42 AM
Also, except for a brief period of baby boom in the 1950s, I don't think the Western world has really seen the demographic explosion compared to which we are now supposedly seeing a decline.

I certainly think a baby boom would be disastrous.  I am just talking about replacement level, enough to keep the home fires burning and the pension money coming in.  If the Western World had historically reproduced at modern Germany levels there would be no Western World today.  If everybody was having two kids today they would be ideal.

1.8-2.2 is the sweet spot, anything higher or lower there are going to be problems...but granted lower is probably much better in the short term than higher.

Most of my (upper) middle class colleagues who are married and have kids, have usually 2 or 3. I think the statistics are brought down by people who are single and/or childless rather than people who have 1 kid only. You cannot really force people to breed or marry in a modern liberal society.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.

No. Family is still the basic unit, it has always been. Those who pretend to can function without that are the minority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:21:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:08:39 AM
Why the fuck would it be a puzzler? Excepting truly insane people, I don't think anyone takes a decision to have kids or not based on "the looming fall of the white man civilization".  :huh:

I am not sure where race came into this.  I am talking about sane national policies not some weird...whatever you are talking about.  Having shrinking generations is not a bad thing.  Having tons of kids is, of course, even worse as that tends to create poverty and crime.  But having too few and you face a pretty bleak future.

How is that stupid shit?

As Sheilbh pointed out, this kind of rhetorics is almost exclusively the domain of right winger racists/white supremacists in Europe. So when you say we have been hearing about declining birth rates for decades, it may be true, but we  have been hearing this almost only from the likes of Le Pen.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:26:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.

No. Family is still the basic unit, it has always been. Those who pretend to can function without that are the minority.

Spoken like a true Orbanite. I can now see why your country is such a shit-stain.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:26:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:22:40 AM
Most of my (upper) middle class colleagues who are married and have kids, have usually 2 or 3. I think the statistics are brought down by people who are single and/or childless rather than people who have 1 kid only. You cannot really force people to breed or marry in a modern liberal society.

Nor am I suggesting people do so.  I guess I figured if people were hearing their culture was nearing a crisis because of a pending demographic disaster, and indeed this has been repeated fairly often for about twenty years now, they might consider having another one or two.  Or maybe they are and it just is not enough.  Or as you said it tends to be packaged in 'OMG TEH MASTER RACE NEEDS MOAR'.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:27:32 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:25:28 AM
As Sheilbh pointed out, this kind of rhetorics is almost exclusively the domain of right winger racists/white supremacists in Europe. So when you say we have been hearing about declining birth rates for decades, it may be true, but we  have been hearing this almost only from the likes of Le Pen.

Ah got it.  No I am not talking about that.  It is not like only white countries have demographic problems in either direction.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:29:23 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.

No. Family is still the basic unit, it has always been. Those who pretend to can function without that are the minority.

Well I certainly feel that way.  Family is everything to me.  But that is just a personal preference.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:33:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 10:29:23 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
This is also a reason, imo, why societies are more "atomised" now and social bonds are breaking. Turns out humans are not social or family animals after all - we are rugged individualists. We only band with others when we have no choice. Once given sufficient technological and legal tools to be able to live on our own we choose to do so.

No. Family is still the basic unit, it has always been. Those who pretend to can function without that are the minority.

Well I certainly feel that way.  Family is everything to me.  But that is just a personal preference.

We do instinctively need some kind of tribal affiliation though. Otherwise there would be no things like sport club loyalty and other side-effects of this. Not to mention religious wars and nationalism.
So again, Marty is wrong.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:33:37 AMWe do instinctively need some kind of tribal affiliation though. Otherwise there would be no things like sport club loyalty and other side-effects of this. Not to mention religious wars and nationalism.
So again, Marty is wrong.

Not really. It just shows that within your society, Orban is right. And if he is right and the tribe/family is everything, then indeed he is right to effectively destroy the highly individualistic personal pension accounts and use it for the betterment of the community, because this money is not needed and you are expected to rely on your family and tribe instead (the fruits of your labour belong to the tribe, not you).

It's actually quite funny because you now bemoan how Orban is destroying your freedom and property, but your political views are really in line with what he preaches. He is a racist, you are a racist (against gypsies for example). He has a tribalistic, family-oriented communitarian mentality and you obviously have it too. So stop moaning for being ruled by someone who shares your views, but only drawing them to their logical conclusions.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 10:33:37 AMWe do instinctively need some kind of tribal affiliation though. Otherwise there would be no things like sport club loyalty and other side-effects of this. Not to mention religious wars and nationalism.
So again, Marty is wrong.

Not really. It just shows that within your society, Orban is right. And if he is right and the tribe/family is everything, then indeed he is right to effectively destroy the highly individualistic personal pension accounts and use it for the betterment of the community, because this money is not needed and you are expected to rely on your family and tribe instead (the fruits of your labour belong to the tribe, not you).

It's actually quite funny because you now bemoan how Orban is destroying your freedom and property, but your political views are really in line with what he preaches. He is a racist, you are a racist (against gypsies for example). He has a tribalistic, family-oriented communitarian mentality and you obviously have it too. So stop moaning for being ruled by someone who shares your views, but only drawing them to their logical conclusions.

take your meds, dude
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 11:10:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 10:48:03 AM
Not really. It just shows that within your society, Orban is right. And if he is right and the tribe/family is everything, then indeed he is right to effectively destroy the highly individualistic personal pension accounts and use it for the betterment of the community, because this money is not needed and you are expected to rely on your family and tribe instead (the fruits of your labour belong to the tribe, not you).

It's actually quite funny because you now bemoan how Orban is destroying your freedom and property, but your political views are really in line with what he preaches. He is a racist, you are a racist (against gypsies for example). He has a tribalistic, family-oriented communitarian mentality and you obviously have it too. So stop moaning for being ruled by someone who shares your views, but only drawing them to their logical conclusions.

I was not aware being family oriented meant being against freedom and property :hmm:

I mean while we are all born with families and in communities they are voluntary associations...at least once you become an adult :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 11:18:47 AM
I agree with Orban, Valmy and Tamas.

Edit:  This reminds me of a paper the Scandi governments put forward for some international conference.  They basically said that society is defined by interactions in a triangle of State-Family-Individual. 

Again I'm doing immense violence to this, I'll have a look for it because it's quite interesting.  They identified the US as a society in which the strongest tie was the Family-Individual; the state takes a smaller role, but family and individuality are tied.  Germany on the other hand has a system that emphasises State-Family ties; the state plays a large role in encouraging family, there's tax sharing for couples, all sorts of generous child benefits, whereas there's far less support available for individuals from either - the emphasis is on the family together.  They argued that Scandinavia was generally State-Individuals; their policy is a strong state that supports individuals to do anything and, if they want, break away from their family or not have one.

As I say I'll try and find the report because it's interesting and I'm really not doing it justice.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 11:55:16 AM
Make a fiery speech on an opposition rally, destroy your son's career?

IIRC, I mentioned after the big demonstration on the 2nd of January, that a well-known lawtalker, former ombudsman, made a speech on it, warning Orban that it has more honor to leave as a former PM defeated in a democratic election, than flee as a fallen dictator.

Apparently, he has a 37 years old son, who is a historian of some note, having written various books and pucblications, mostly about the Kadar-era. He has been already teaching at some colleges and universities, but won a new job application to one of the colleges.

Now, law says, that the Prime Minister must confirm every new college professor in his job. This has been a mere formality (even during communist years, altough during that time, if you weren't trusted, you never got accepted on the job app. in the first place).

Except now, this guy, Martonyi, got rejected by Orban. Well, to be more precise, his confirmation letter has not been signed. There has been no comment on the reason.
But it is not hard to imagine, falls in perfectly with how Orban and his cronies has been fighting their "enemies" at every level, from the top of country-wide politics, to small town councils.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 11:58:55 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 11:18:47 AM
I agree with Orban, Valmy and Tamas.

Edit:  This reminds me of a paper the Scandi governments put forward for some international conference.  They basically said that society is defined by interactions in a triangle of State-Family-Individual. 

Again I'm doing immense violence to this, I'll have a look for it because it's quite interesting.  They identified the US as a society in which the strongest tie was the Family-Individual; the state takes a smaller role, but family and individuality are tied.  Germany on the other hand has a system that emphasises State-Family ties; the state plays a large role in encouraging family, there's tax sharing for couples, all sorts of generous child benefits, whereas there's far less support available for individuals from either - the emphasis is on the family together.  They argued that Scandinavia was generally State-Individuals; their policy is a strong state that supports individuals to do anything and, if they want, break away from their family or not have one.

As I say I'll try and find the report because it's interesting and I'm really not doing it justice.

So you are essentially agreeing with what I said - i.e. that the social progress e.g. in countries like Scandinavia makes the family unnecessary.

I believe Tamas (not sure about Valmy) is arguing that you cannot replace the family or make it obsolete.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 12:05:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 11:58:55 AM
I believe Tamas (not sure about Valmy) is arguing that you cannot replace the family or make it obsolete.

If it requires massive government intervention to do so I am pretty cool with it being irreplaceable (not saying it is, I do not know, I just know I have no interest in replacing mine).  Are we talking about on a massive society wide scale?  Because I am pretty sure it is not that hard for individuals to decide their family is not working for them and I am pretty sure there are still lots of tight knit families in Scandinavia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:13:35 PM
I am arguing that there are certain things which are beyond our total rational control. Sex, agression, etc. You can control them but control rather means chanelling it to socially acceptable venues (do note that I think we do that for survival instincts, not to please society. ie. you don't hit an annoying guy because you fear the legal reprecussions, not because it would make Mrs. Margery at the next table upset).

The "need for a tribe", or a family, the need to belong is one such thing. You of all people on this forum should not deny that, with your passionate waving of the gay issue's flag.

Family comes as a natural, instinctive "prime loyalty" for most. Then later, one way or the other, their relationship to this family becomes a matter of an irrational individual decision - like almost anything in life.

Now, you may like or dislike that certain individuals decide that there are other individuals whose health and happiness are more important to them than their own. But so it happens, that the family is still the prime unit of our social construct, and for a lot, their personal identities.

If anything, this aspect must be INCREASING with the so called "atomization" of society, with the noticable decline of importance of the larger community (you have the TV and Internet to replace that), the nation, or religion (in the developed world at least).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:14:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 12:05:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 11:58:55 AM
I believe Tamas (not sure about Valmy) is arguing that you cannot replace the family or make it obsolete.

If it requires massive government intervention to do so I am pretty cool with it being irreplaceable (not saying it is, I do not know, I just know I have no interest in replacing mine).  Are we talking about on a massive society wide scale?  Because I am pretty sure it is not that hard for individuals to decide their family is not working for them and I am pretty sure there are still lots of tight knit families in Scandinavia.

I think his argument is that modern people ought to cut ties of loyalty and love. Or something.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 11:58:55 AM
So you are essentially agreeing with what I said - i.e. that the social progress e.g. in countries like Scandinavia makes the family unnecessary.

I believe Tamas (not sure about Valmy) is arguing that you cannot replace the family or make it obsolete.
I still think you're wrong.  I don't think atomisation has gone to that extent - and I think the process may now be reversing - but also the State-Individual axis requires society.  It can't work in your radically atomised vision.  Also I don't think there is a set route of 'social progress' which leads to any necessary conclusions.  These are all valid options and different societies will advance in different ways.

Here's the paper:
http://www.scribd.com/Davos-The-nordic-way-final/d/47937407
The relevant bit is the essay 'Social trust and radical individualism'.  It's effectively the Pippi Longstocking state.

Edit: 
Relevant bits:
QuoteThis emphasis on social solidarity hides the strong, not to say extreme, individualism that denes social relations andpolitical institutions in the Nordic countries. In-deed, it is precisely the fundamental harmony between the Nordic social contract and the basicprinciples of the market – that the basic unit of society is the individual and a central purpose of policy should be to maximize individual autono-my and social mobility – that we see as the key to the vitality of Nordic capitalism.
...
Though the path hasn't always beenstraight, one can discernover the course of the twen-tieth century an overarch-ing ambition in the Nordiccountries not to socialize theeconomy but to liberate theindividual citizen from allforms of subordination anddependency within the fam-ily and in civil society: the poor from charity, the workers from their employers, wives from theirhusbands, children from parents – and vice versa when the parents become elderly.
...
All in all this legislation has made the Nordiccountries into the least family-dependent andmost individualized societies on the face of theearth. To be sure, the family remains a centralsocial institution in the Nordic countries, but ittoo is infused with the same moral logic stressing autonomy and equality. The ideal family is madeup of adults who work and are not nancially dependent on the other, and children who areencouraged to be as independent as early as pos-sible. Rather than undermining "family values"this could be interpreted as a modernization of the family as a social institution.
...
There an emphasis on individualautonomy coincides with a positive view of the state as an ally of not only weaker andmore vulnerable citizens, but the citizenry atlarge. This is coupled with a negative view of unequal power relations between individualsin general and hierarchical institutions in par-ticular, such as the traditional patriarchal fam-ily and demeaning charitable organizations incivil society. In this regard, the Nordic modeldiffers from both their Anglo-American andcontinental European counterparts.
...
In the U.S., individual (rights) andfamily (values) trump the state (always seenas threat to liberty). In Germany, nally, thecentral axis is the one connecting state andfamily, with a much smaller role of eitherU.S.-style individual rights or a Nordic em-phasis on individual autonomy.
...
According to what we have called "a Swedishtheory of love", authentic relationships of loveand friendship are only possible between in-dividuals who do not depend on each other orstand in unequal power relations. Thus auton-omy, equality and (statist) individualism areinextricably linked to each other. Whateverpolitical and cultural drawbacks there mightbe to this commitment to per-sonal autonomy, a strong stateand social equality – the usualcriticisms are conformity, lone-liness and an intrusive bureau-cracy – one should note the upside: citizens, who feel empowered, accept the demands of modernity and are willing to make compro-mises to achieve economic efciency and ra-tional decision-making.
...
Specic British and American experi-ences of modernization have been generalizedinto historical truths that have been appliedto other cultures, sometimes with great suc-cess but also with astounding failures. Thepoint is not that it is wrong in principal to try to emulate other successful cultures (how else is mankind to learn anything?), but ratherthat we should do so with great deliberationand – most importantly – not assume a priorithat only one kind of capitalism is relevant asa source of inspiration.
...
1.
Nordic capitalism shows that individualismneed not lead to social fragmentation, dis-trust and short-term maximization of material interests. Promoting individual autonomy through policy can, on the contrary, lead togreater social cohesion if it is done in an egali-tarian way. Less dependence and weaker patri-archal structures means that more people feelempowered and satised with their lives. Thisis especially relevant for women, who want toparticipate in the labor market without relin-quishing the possibility of becoming moth-ers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 12:21:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:14:25 PM
I think his argument is that modern people ought to cut ties of loyalty and love. Or something.

Ok.  For what purpose?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 10, 2012, 12:21:19 PM
I would say family is still the basic unit of society except that family does no longer mean married couple with two children, but can take different forms too. It seems natural that humans have close emotional bonds to their relatives.

Our social system is geared towards that too. They will always make the family pay first and only then society at-large. My grandmother had to pay for the elderly care of her father for a year or two before he died despite not having seen him for decades before that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: MadImmortalMan on January 10, 2012, 12:30:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 11:55:16 AM
Now, law says, that the Prime Minister must confirm every new college professor in his job.

lolwut?

:P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 10, 2012, 12:30:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 11:55:16 AM
Now, law says, that the Prime Minister must confirm every new college professor in his job.

lolwut?

:P

don't look at me, that was the way by the time I was born here :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on January 10, 2012, 12:34:13 PM
How many new proffessors do you have in a year?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:41:47 PM
Quote from: HVC on January 10, 2012, 12:34:13 PM
How many new proffessors do you have in a year?

no idea
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 01:11:06 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 10, 2012, 12:30:28 PM
lolwut?

:P
Weird :mellow:

Still the PM here appoints Bishops.  It's mostly just him approving the Church's choice (he actually does about the Archbishop of Canterbury).  It only looks odd when the convention's broken, as Orban has.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 10, 2012, 01:13:05 PM
Our federal president appoints all federal employees. Of course he is allowed to delegate that authority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 01:22:45 PM
The article almost makes it sound like the big difference between Germany, the US, and Scandinavia is that women have jobs in Scandinavia.  I find that quite perplexing.  I could see that being brought up as something characteristic of the Western World but just for Scandinavia?  Besides that what do these big individualizing policies consist of and how do they manifest?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 01:57:37 PM
Also, a side issue, the Budapest mass transit company (owned by the city of course), BKV, has a lot of debt to repay this year, first one coming on the 27th of this month, around 29-30 million euros worth of money (the 27th of january one, it is just a portion of the whole).

They don't have a dime. They have even stopped buying replacement parts and materials since a few weeks.

So they need money. From the state. Which doesn't want to give. I don't say I don't understand, but supposedly, the legal chainreaction of BKV's default would basically bankrupt Budapest, because the cancelled contracts, and cancelled EU money on the subsequently cancelled 4th metro line building would amount to a whooping cost of about 1.5 billion euros.

I am near the point where I will just laugh on all of this, as decades of indecision, incompetence and corruption just collapse on the heads of everyone.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on January 10, 2012, 02:13:26 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 10, 2012, 12:21:19 PM
I would say family is still the basic unit of society except that family does no longer mean married couple with two children, but can take different forms too. It seems natural that humans have close emotional bonds to their relatives.

Our social system is geared towards that too. They will always make the family pay first and only then society at-large. My grandmother had to pay for the elderly care of her father for a year or two before he died despite not having seen him for decades before that.

:yes:

Very few people try to maintain no associations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 01:22:45 PM
The article almost makes it sound like the big difference between Germany, the US, and Scandinavia is that women have jobs in Scandinavia.  I find that quite perplexing.  I could see that being brought up as something characteristic of the Western World but just for Scandinavia?  Besides that what do these big individualizing policies consist of and how do they manifest?  :hmm:
I don't know.  It's a small part of a 15 page contribution to Davos.  It caused a stir and references a paper called 'Pippi Longstocking: The Autonomous Child and the Moral Logic of the Swedish Welfare State', which I can't find (edit:  can't find online, it's in an interesting sounding book), and in turn inspired a book called 'Is The Swede A Human?' :lol:

Pippi after all lives without parents, with a monkey and does whatever she wants.  You couldn't get much more radical individualism.  I found this post on the whole issue quite interesting:
http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/283573/highly-abstract-post-left-and-right-reihan-salam

Having said that I believe female participation in Scandinavia does tend to be higher than everywhere else in the world, and has been for many years.  One of the things that would probably help Italy and Greece in the longterm is greater female participation in the economy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:10:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2012, 12:21:06 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 10, 2012, 12:14:25 PM
I think his argument is that modern people ought to cut ties of loyalty and love. Or something.

Ok.  For what purpose?
It's not my argument.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:16:56 PM
My argument is that in modern societies people can survive and do well on their own with no family and offspring if they choose to do so (something impossible in less developed societies). A significant number of them makes that choice, which is responsible for less births to a greater degree than married people having less children is. So if, for whatever reason, you wanted more children to be born, telling married people to have more children is completely missing the target audience.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on January 10, 2012, 05:21:07 PM
Couldn't this be fixed by one good beet harvest?

The hungarian problem I mean, not the demographic problem.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:24:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 10, 2012, 02:13:26 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 10, 2012, 12:21:19 PM
I would say family is still the basic unit of society except that family does no longer mean married couple with two children, but can take different forms too. It seems natural that humans have close emotional bonds to their relatives.

Our social system is geared towards that too. They will always make the family pay first and only then society at-large. My grandmother had to pay for the elderly care of her father for a year or two before he died despite not having seen him for decades before that.

:yes:

Very few people try to maintain no associations.

But that's not the point of my argument. We started from talking about demographics, less births than in the past and how people don't breed, and how people used to rely on their offspring for their retirement - it should be clear from the context that if I responded to that by referring to starting/having a family, I meant one's spouse and children and not alternative families.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:28:12 PM
The thing is, while the majority still prefers to have spouses and children, there is a significant minority in Western societies that makes more or less of a conscious choice not to - whether because they are rugged individualists like CdM, crazy like Raz or gay like me.

In the past people needed to form families because if they didn't they would either simply die, or if not would face significant hardships in their old age or at least significant level of social ostracism.

Now, the progress of the society has removed most, if not all, of these barriers in the West and it emerged that the people mentioned above (who, I'd dare say, form between 20% and 30% of the population) are simply not interested in breeding. This, imo, is the reason why the statistical birth rate is dropping - and hearing about demographic downturn that Valmy referred to is not going to change these people's minds.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on January 10, 2012, 05:54:05 PM
How far back are we going here Marty?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 06:34:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:28:12 PM
The thing is, while the majority still prefers to have spouses and children, there is a significant minority in Western societies that makes more or less of a conscious choice not to - whether because they are rugged individualists like CdM, crazy like Raz or gay like me.
Except the gay aren't making a conscious choice, though you may have.  We're in no position to know what'll happen with the gays because they were to a large extent excluded from family for a long time.  That's changed and I don't know where it'll end.  You could be right or we could be about to see the emergence of homo-families.

I also think that this isn't a 'Western' thing.  Significant parts of the 'West' don't have a demographic crisis: the Anglos, the Scandis and the French especially.  It's something that's been most sever in post-Communist countries and Southern Europe, with Germany also having problems.  I think you're as best looking at what's happened in those countries, or in the fecund countries rather than generalising about gays and rugged individualists opting out of family life in the West - not least because you actually make us sound like a danger to family, which isn't the case however much you'd like it to be so :P

Edit:  Also I do think couples choosing to have smaller families rather than opting out has been a big part of the shift.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on January 10, 2012, 07:06:27 PM
20-30% of people are not interested in having kids? :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:04:26 AM
Okaaaay, let's put this polish gay self-confirmation seeking aside and return to the topic.

Reportedly, FIDESZ leadership debated these past days the necessity to hold a demonstration of their own, showing off that they still have big support. I was wondering if they would actually do it, since it does pose some risk.

Well, it looks like it is not coming by an official FIDESZ march, but rather by a "civilian organization", called "Peace March for Hungary".

"The Hungarian people already witnessed the horrible consequences of the abroad's disdain, in front of the judges of Trianon. We don't want this to repeat"

The right's most prominent "radical" journalist put it this way:
"The people stand and wait. They feel in their guts that this is their government, and that if this government can be overthrown by the IMF, the bastard Le Monde, and the stupid politicans of the West, then they [teh people] will also be overthrown. The magyar way of living will be overthrown. Then we will stay lotus-eating pigs [?], except that the lotus will be limited, because we have been too hedonist, and consumed too much"

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com%2Fimages01%2F95%2F853cfe0df9f2935bbc6916c2bd904c4a%2Fl.jpg&hash=1523c03e263dbcb61aff594550e2e7daba33af95)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:24:54 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 10, 2012, 06:34:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 10, 2012, 05:28:12 PM
The thing is, while the majority still prefers to have spouses and children, there is a significant minority in Western societies that makes more or less of a conscious choice not to - whether because they are rugged individualists like CdM, crazy like Raz or gay like me.
Except the gay aren't making a conscious choice, though you may have. 

Err, of course gays are making a conscious choice not to enter into heterosexual marriages and not to breed.  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?

yeah, IIRC.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:59:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?

yeah, IIRC.

So why would the IMF give you a loan for doing something you already do?  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 07:01:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:59:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?

yeah, IIRC.

So why would the IMF give you a loan for doing something you already do?  :huh:

you srsly looking for logic in right-wint frothing on gays?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 07:15:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:59:08 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 11, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
Also, Marty will love this: the rumours spreading around in the lowest lows of the rightish mob is that the IMF will grant the loan for "stopping the criminal investigation against Gyurcsany (former PM), and allowing gays to marry"

I thought you already allowed gays to marry.  :huh:

Edit: Or at least have civil partnerships. No?

yeah, IIRC.

So why would the IMF give you a loan for doing something you already do?  :huh:

:lol: I was wrong: this gay marriage rumour was not started by the mob itself: it was started by 'Magyar Nemzet' the de facto official FIDESZ newspaper.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 11, 2012, 03:04:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 11, 2012, 05:04:26 AM
Well, it looks like it is not coming by an official FIDESZ march, but rather by a "civilian organization", called "Peace March for Hungary".

"The Hungarian people already witnessed the horrible consequences of the abroad's disdain, in front of the judges of Trianon. We don't want this to repeat"
On the theme of Hungarian emo self-harm, from the Economist:
QuoteNot just a rap on the knuckles

Jan 11th 2012, 19:23 by A.L.B. | BUDAPEST

THE pressure is piling up on the beleaguered Hungarian government. Today the European Commission threatened it with legal action over several new "cardinal" laws that would require a two-thirds majority in parliament to overturn.

The commission is still considering the laws, but today it highlighted concerns over three issues:

- The independence of the central bank. Late last year the Hungarian parliament passed a law which expands the monetary council and takes the power to nominate deputies away from the governor and hands it to the prime minister. A separate law opens the door to a merger between the bank and the financial regulator.

- The judiciary. More than 200 judges over the age of 62 have been forced into retirement and hundreds more face the sack. The new National Judicial Authority is headed by Tünde Handó, a friend of the family of Viktor Orbán, the prime minister.

- The independence of the national data authority.

That wasn't all the commission had to say today. Hungary also received a ticking-off from Olli Rehn (pictured), the economic-affairs commissioner, for not doing enough to tackle its budget deficit. It may now lose access to EU funds.

Slammed in Brussels, the Hungarian government is also under pressure at home. Earlier this week Gordon Bajnai, who served as Socialist prime minister from 2009-10, fired off a broadside that sent shockwaves through the political and media establishments.

After a year and a half of government by the right-wing Fidesz party, wrote Mr Bajnai in a lengthy article on the website of the Patriotism and Progress Public Policy Foundation, democracy has been destroyed in Hungary. The country, he warned, is scarred by division and is drifting towards bankruptcy and away from Europe.

Mr Bajnai called for a radical change of government and a complete political re-orientation. "A new government must have a programme readily at hand that can be applied without delay: a programme that promotes the republic, reconciliation, and recovery."

Fidesz is rattled by Mr Bajnai, who since leaving office has been teaching at Columbia University in New York. Understandably so. He headed a technocratic administration which stabilised the economy. Unlike his Socialist predecessor, Ferenc Gyurcsány, he was neither part of the old Communist elite nor connected to it by marriage, and so cannot be smeared as a "Komcsi". He is modern in outlook and well regarded internationally.

Moreover, say those how know him, Mr Bajnai has little patience for the narcissistic exceptionalism that shapes Fidesz's worldview. Exhibit A: the plaintive cry of János Martonyi, the foreign minister, who lamented recently: "The world will never understand our pains and spiritual wounds." Such self-pity is unlikely to endear the Hungarian government to Brussels or Washington DC (to where it has sent an envoy this week to negotiate with the IMF).

Fidesz won a two-thirds majority in 2010. But its support is evaporating, and analysts say there is a gap in the political market for a centrist pro-business party committed to democratic norms. Mr Bajnai, who has not ruled out a return to politics, would be an obvious candidate to lead it.

Meanwhile, as Hungarians watch the value of their assets vaporise, in large part thanks to the government's increasingly erratic policies, Mr Orbán smirks his way through press conferences. Here he is dodging questions from a reporter from HVG, an economics weekly, about his responsibility for the crisis and trying to shift the blame to his old enemy András Simor, president of the central bank. The interview ran as follows:

hvg.hu: Do you feel responsible for the falling/weakening forint?

Mr Orbán: You mean the president of the central bank? He did not comment on it.

hvg.hu: No, you, Mr prime minister!

Mr Orbán: The personal responsibility of the president of the central bank was not discussed over the meeting.

hvg.hu: You, your personal...!

Mr Orbán: That neither.

Surrounded by yes-men and grinning flunkies, Mr Orbán seems increasingly out of touch. His future will likely be decided not in the gilded corridors of the Hungarian parliament, but in Brussels and Washington DC.

What happens next? If his hand is forced Mr Orbán can probably endure policy reversals on the independence of the central bank and the data ombudsman. Sorry, he would say to his loyal followers: national crisis, what can you do.

The dismantling of the judiciary would be another matter. If outsiders keep up the pressure and the judicial changes are judged to be in breach of the EU treaty, Mr Orbán would be in a tricky spot. It's hard to see how he could declare the 200-plus judges his government has forced into retirement ready for office after all, and still sit in his own.
I love this line: 'the world will never understand our pains and spiritual wounds.'
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 11, 2012, 09:41:59 PM
The 'magyar way of living'?  While Europe has cracked down on banditry, I'm pretty sure that nobody is going to keep the Hungarians from whining about their betters and being indistinguishable from gypsies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 11, 2012, 03:04:55 PM
I love this line: 'the world will never understand our pains and spiritual wounds.'


:cool: That's just a capsule of feeling all warm and Magyar inside.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
Bajnai: he is on the list to be discredited by corruption trials, it is just delaying as most of these cases, since they can't really come up with evidence (the Hungarian elite was smart enough to make their stealings legal so it would be kinda' hard to make it appear illegal), so maybe that is one of the reasons he is coming back to politics - seeking shelter in publicity.


Otherwise, his name regularly comes up, as it was during his short reign that we climbed back from the edge of bankrupcy.

In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.

Errr, if you are part of a nation of untermensch, the smartest thing you can do is to do what others tell you.  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 12, 2012, 02:58:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 11, 2012, 03:04:55 PM
I love this line: 'the world will never understand our pains and spiritual wounds.'


:cool: That's just a capsule of feeling all warm and Magyar inside.

I guess everyone in Hungary wears black and lots of eyeshadow all the time  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.
Errr, if you are part of a nation of untermensch, the smartest thing you can do is to do what others tell you.  :huh:
You guys are even worse, you filthy Russian.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 10:02:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.

But the ting is - the secrets to good government aren't exactly all that mysterious or difficult.  Keep your books balanced, moderate regulation, make sure your taxes aren't punitive.  It's just that so many governments can't resist trying to do more than that and wind up in trouble.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PDH on January 12, 2012, 10:05:56 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 10:02:53 AM
But the ting is - the secrets to good government aren't exactly all that mysterious or difficult.  Keep your books balanced, moderate regulation, make sure your taxes aren't punitive.  It's just that so many governments can't resist trying to do more than that and wind up in trouble.

:rolleyes:  Whatever, Edmund.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 10:35:13 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 10:02:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.

But the ting is - the secrets to good government aren't exactly all that mysterious or difficult.  Keep your books balanced, moderate regulation, make sure your taxes aren't punitive.  It's just that so many governments can't resist trying to do more than that and wind up in trouble.

You are right, except that then you have a populist charismatic asshole stand up and say "we should care for our poor pipple! we should let the seniors use mass transit for free! we should support the youth in buying housese! we should make higher education free! we should pay more pensions! we should decrease energy prices by state degree!"

and he wins the election.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
All of those things are do-able in a responsible way though Tamas.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 11:46:09 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
All of those things are do-able in a responsible way though Tamas.
Are they?  It doesn't seem like that's possible anymore.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 11:50:09 AM
With sufficient tax revenue they're very possible.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:01:24 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
All of those things are do-able in a responsible way though Tamas.

Given sufficient tax income yes. Which of course must be carefully and responsibly balanced so it does not suffocate the economy on the long term.

And in case of economic hardships, severe cuts to these welfare spendings must be made, sometimes maybe on short notice, to ensure the longevity of the system.

Do we really, REALLY think this (the selfless and responsible spending of untold amounts of money, over generations) is managable by us humans? By the political class in general?
Example shows we can't. Everyone is flocking to German bonds because Germany is the exception, not the rule.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 12:02:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on January 12, 2012, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:39:59 AM
In my personal opinion, while he must be a talented businessman, and we would need an unpolitical technocrat like him to take the political suicide pill and reform the country, his nation-leading genius is overplayed: he received a list of demands from the IMF, and he kept to it. He did nothing more, nothing less.
Errr, if you are part of a nation of untermensch, the smartest thing you can do is to do what others tell you.  :huh:
You guys are even worse, you filthy Russian.

No real argument there. We have been always doing what others told us. The gist of it is that we finally understand that doing what Brussels and Berlin tell us is better for us than doing what Moscow, London, Washington DC or Vatican tell us.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:02:53 PM
Besides, you detracked me. :P

My original point was that no matter what you do, a populist can outpromise you on state spending, given a juvenile enough population. Juvenile in terms of political culture and fiscal education.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 12:03:31 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
All of those things are do-able in a responsible way though Tamas.

How can you dictate prices by decree in a responsible way?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 12:19:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2012, 12:02:34 PM
No real argument there. We have been always doing what others told us. The gist of it is that we finally understand that doing what Brussels and Berlin tell us is better for us than doing what Moscow, London, Washington DC or Vatican tell us.
I meant you personally.  Now do what I tell you to do and hit yourself over the head with the heaviest Apple product in the room.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 12:19:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 11:50:09 AM
With sufficient tax revenue they're very possible.
But then the populist has to up the ante.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 12:20:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 12:03:31 PM
How can you dictate prices by decree in a responsible way?
Well nothing really can be done reasonably by decree.  Process matters and I hadn't really read that one.

Having said that, governments can influence energy prices and should - in this country I think we've got an oligopoly of utility providers who should probably get attacked by the regulator to promote competition.

QuoteDo we really, REALLY think this (the selfless and responsible spending of untold amounts of money, over generations) is managable by us humans? By the political class in general?
Example shows we can't. Everyone is flocking to German bonds because Germany is the exception, not the rule.
Of course it's manageable and it can only be managed by the political class.  It's either them or 'technocrats'.  Politics needs a strong dose populism to work in a remotely democratic way.  The danger for me doesn't tend to be on the fiscal side in general but when the government tries to massage the economy too much - for example what seems to be going on in Turkey right now, or New Labour's third term, that leads to real problems.

You're using the example of over generations, I think by that criteria France, Germany, the Anglo-Saxon world and Northern Europe have more or less managed this in a relatively responsible way, most of the time.  They've all been able to make adjustments and respond to different economic situations in different ways.  I've got a lot of faith in democracy,  I think it genuinely works and the electorate is almost always right.

It's worked with less success in states that are built on corruption - I think this was the nature of post-war Italian politics, it was more Latin America than Europe in many ways - and it's too soon to tell in younger democracies.  But generally I think they right themselves.  Poland will comfortably grow, Spain will come back and though this regime's a nightmare I think Hungary'll work out too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
QuotePolitics needs a strong dose populism to work in a remotely democratic way

Why? I mean, I know why. Because the plebs are stupid. But why should we accept this as something good and okay? Why should we be content with the fate of a nation being in the hands of it's lowest? The poorest and least educated?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 12:30:27 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
QuotePolitics needs a strong dose populism to work in a remotely democratic way

Why? I mean, I know why. Because the plebs are stupid. But why should we accept this as something good and okay? Why should we be content with the fate of a nation being in the hands of it's lowest? The poorest and least educated?
Because more often than not they get it right.  Also without a connection between governors and governed you'll end up with an elite serving their own interests - which are not those of most people or, necessarily, the country.  The reaction against elitist rule will always be a far stronger, more virulent populism.  The two should temper one another, if you give into one then you'll end up with the other as strongly - Hungary is an example of that in the move from technocracy to populism.  I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens in Greece, Ireland and Italy.

The EU is probably the most anti-populist and elitist institution in the free world.  With the exception of Hungary (sorry :() I'd probably trust any democratically elected government over the Troika of Commission, ECB and IMF.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:38:11 PM
What a terrible, terrible example Shelf.  The IMF is not in the business of making judgement calls, it's in the business of getting countries in shape so they can reaccess private capital markets.  Your beloved populists are on the streets of Athens without a clue in the world about credit worthiness.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 12:41:57 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:38:11 PM
What a terrible, terrible example Shelf.  The IMF is not in the business of making judgement calls, it's in the business of getting countries in shape so they can reaccess private capital markets.  Your beloved populists are on the streets of Athens without a clue in the world about credit worthiness.
What's do you mean by judgement calls?

Having said that I don't mind the IMF.  I'm attacking the EU and its elements in the Troika, the IMF is, I think the best of the three.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:46:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 12:41:57 PM
What's do you mean by judgement calls?

Having said that I don't mind the IMF.  I'm attacking the EU and its elements in the Troika, the IMF is, I think the best of the three.

I mean things like the choice between fewer public services or lower taxes.  That's a question of taste.  Running gigantic deficits forever and ever is not a question of taste, it's a metaphysical impossibility.  Populists who think you can are just wrong.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 12:51:49 PM
But if the state would lack the rights to spend at their heart's content (laisez faire economy, you don't need to deify Ann Ryan or create anarchy to have such an economy), populism couldn't ruin a country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:46:59 PM
I mean things like the choice between fewer public services or lower taxes.  That's a question of taste.  Running gigantic deficits forever and ever is not a question of taste, it's a metaphysical impossibility.  Populists who think you can are just wrong.
I thought the IMF did provide advice on specific policy choices.

But even so I think that's an extreme interpretation of populism.  My point is that Orban and his like are the product of too little not too much populism.

QuoteBut if the state would lack the rights to spend at their heart's content (laisez faire economy, you don't need to deify Ann Ryan or create anarchy to have such an economy), populism couldn't ruin a country.
Of course it could.  It would either require you to create a state structure as lacking in democracy as what Orban's building now, but for your ideological choice, or it would just require one election victory.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 01:10:55 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 12:46:59 PM
I mean things like the choice between fewer public services or lower taxes.  That's a question of taste.  Running gigantic deficits forever and ever is not a question of taste, it's a metaphysical impossibility.  Populists who think you can are just wrong.
I thought the IMF did provide advice on specific policy choices.

But even so I think that's an extreme interpretation of populism.  My point is that Orban and his like are the product of too little not too much populism.

QuoteBut if the state would lack the rights to spend at their heart's content (laisez faire economy, you don't need to deify Ann Ryan or create anarchy to have such an economy), populism couldn't ruin a country.
Of course it could.  It would either require you to create a state structure as lacking in democracy as what Orban's building now, but for your ideological choice, or it would just require one election victory.

Weren't the (at least late) 19th century British state much-much less involved in the economy than modern states? Didn't you have political parties regardless?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:18:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 01:10:55 PM
Weren't the (at least late) 19th century British state much-much less involved in the economy than modern states? Didn't you have political parties regardless?
Yeah.  But that wasn't really a democracy, the franchise was very limited.  Late 19th century about 50% of men over 21 could vote.  Also the state I think has needed to grow in the 20th century precisely because of the way the economy's grown. 

And regardless you had the start of social and political reforms precisely because both Liberals and Tories thought it was a choice between that evolution or socialist revolution.  As the Tory PM Lord Salisbury put it 'laissez faire is a fine doctrine, but it must be applied to both sides' and poverty and slums and the like enervated the poor.  They made laissez faire impossible.

Edit:  So you coul probably get a bourgeois liberal state if you limited the franchise by wealth again, but I  don't know how long it would last and it wouldn't deserve to last at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 01:59:52 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
My point is that Orban and his like are the product of too little not too much populism.

Color me baffled.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 01:59:52 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
My point is that Orban and his like are the product of too little not too much populism.

Color me baffled.

Come on Sheilbh  :lol:

They promised EVERYTHING. They promised light to ne crowd, and darkness to the other. They promised laissez faire to businessman, and insane welfare spending to everyone else.
Etc.

They are as populist as you can be. Seriously.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:18:55 PM
Edit:  So you coul probably get a bourgeois liberal state if you limited the franchise by wealth again, but I  don't know how long it would last and it wouldn't deserve to last at all.

Is this a joke?  You really think the upper classes are united in their desire to restore the political order of the 19th century?  I mean these people are among the biggest beneficiaries of the current system.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:10:35 PM
In fact, they are the product of populism on both sides - the socialist party didnt dare do meaningful reform to avoid losing votes (so they fucked up and lost anyway, same happening to Orban as well).

Hungary today is the product of rampant populism and refusal of making the populace face the fact: the socialist state ended in 89, and it was dead long before that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 02:12:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 01:18:55 PM
Edit:  So you coul probably get a bourgeois liberal state if you limited the franchise by wealth again, but I  don't know how long it would last and it wouldn't deserve to last at all.

Is this a joke?  You really think the upper classes are united in their desire to restore the political order of the 19th century?  I mean these people are among the biggest beneficiaries of the current system.

Indeed. This is a classic mistake I think: the upper classes profit greatly from these modern left-leaning national economies. Buying off the poor, conserving them in their situation, from money largely taken from the middle class? What not to like if you are rich?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 02:15:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 01:59:52 PM
Color me baffled.
They came about after a technocratic government implementing measures in support of an IMF program.  They cut government spendign by 5% and reformed various bits of the state.  They restored Hungarian credibility in markets but I don't think there was any sense of rebalancing the economy or growth - which people require as a trade for painful austerity.  It seems, much like what's happening in Greece now and possibly in Italy, that the government's so attuned to international investors that it leads to resentment.  The more resentment, the more extreme the reaction.  In this case, Orban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 02:18:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 02:09:59 PM
Is this a joke?  You really think the upper classes are united in their desire to restore the political order of the 19th century?  I mean these people are among the biggest beneficiaries of the current system.
Tamas referred to late 19th century Britain as a model.  I think with that electorate you would probably end up with a classical liberal government again.

Edit:  And I think it's the only route you'd probably be able to get a liberal majority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 02:39:18 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 02:15:58 PM
They came about after a technocratic government implementing measures in support of an IMF program.  They cut government spendign by 5% and reformed various bits of the state.  They restored Hungarian credibility in markets but I don't think there was any sense of rebalancing the economy or growth - which people require as a trade for painful austerity.  It seems, much like what's happening in Greece now and possibly in Italy, that the government's so attuned to international investors that it leads to resentment.  The more resentment, the more extreme the reaction.  In this case, Orban.

People need to understand they're not in a position to require anything as a trade for painful austerity.  If they want to default and get locked out of the bond market, let 'er rip.  If they want to maintain access, then they have to cut spending and raise revenues.  The IMF is not just another interest group who's wishes need to be balanced with other interest groups.  They are the last resort.

And I still don't get how the Orban government is not populist enough.  You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 02:50:04 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 02:18:12 PM
Tamas referred to late 19th century Britain as a model.  I think with that electorate you would probably end up with a classical liberal government again.

Edit:  And I think it's the only route you'd probably be able to get a liberal majority.

Well color me very skeptical.  The reason we had classic liberal governments back in those days was mostly because that was the fashionable economic model of the same people who we got our political model from and further the limitations of the technology and so forth of the 19th century.  It seems absurd to ignore the fact that things were different in alot more ways than just the sufferage limits in the 19th century.  I mean after the Jacksonian era we had no such property limits but classical liberalism was still the dominant ideology because, well, it was practically the only economic ideology for countries who were influenced by the Enlightenment.

You really think the most educated and privileged part of the population would not only knock over their own applecart but would be so stuck in the past?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:27:58 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 02:39:18 PM
People need to understand they're not in a position to require anything as a trade for painful austerity.  If they want to default and get locked out of the bond market, let 'er rip.  If they want to maintain access, then they have to cut spending and raise revenues.  The IMF is not just another interest group who's wishes need to be balanced with other interest groups.  They are the last resort.
The IMF's goals in Hungary included growth and rebalancing.  They didn't happen and weren't emphasised by the government - the same is happening in Greece, Italy is different with Monti's emphasis on the 'grow Italy' plans.  If there's no upside then all these countries are waiting for is someone charismatic enough to pull off a rejection of international finance, as Orban has so far and as the Kirchners have.  That's all that's lacking in Greece.  It's a role I could have imagined Berlusconi playing that role in Italy.

QuoteAnd I still don't get how the Orban government is not populist enough.  You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Orban is the product of too little populism.  They are in this position of power and popular resentment towards the EU and IMF because of the failings of technocratic government, such as what Hungary had before the election that brought Orban to power.  Nowhere have I said he's not a populist or is too anti-populist.

QuoteYou really think the most educated and privileged part of the population would not only knock over their own applecart but would be so stuck in the past?
I think they're the only sector of the poulation which has generally liberal views.  They'd be understood in modern terms.  I don't mean that we'd return to a point which ignores the achievements of the 19th century (such as abolishing child labour), far less the 20th (the security of the welfare state).  But with that electorate I think you'd be more likely to have a majority in favour of a laissez faire attitude to social issues and a generally laissez faire attitude to the economy, low taxes and all the rest.  Basically the Languish vote :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 03:30:32 PM
So do I get it right that you think Orban won because his opponents were less like him? That's 100% correct.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:33:19 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 03:30:32 PM
So do I get it right that you think Orban won because his opponents were less like him? That's 100% correct.
Yeah, and that that sort of politics only has traction in certain situations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:37:28 PM
The IMF doesn't have growth "goals."  IMF programs include growth forecasts because you need those to forecast revenues.  You need to forecast revenues so you can forecast how much external financing the country needs.

There is an upside: not getting shut out of the capital market forever and running the reduced deficit that IMF financing allows you to. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 03:47:25 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:33:19 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 12, 2012, 03:30:32 PM
So do I get it right that you think Orban won because his opponents were less like him? That's 100% correct.
Yeah, and that that sort of politics only has traction in certain situations.

But I mean that Orban was the worst of the lot!
There has been nothing here but the race of populists. Like, the 13th month pension was promised in one of the campaigns and was only taken away on IMF insistence, and Orban even promised the 14th month pension but he still lost in 2006.

Ever since the late 80s we have been stick-saving one bankrupcy danger after the other because the MOMENT we are not an inch from death the populist rat race resumes and welfare spending spikes up.

Your conclusion is plainly wrong, and if I wouldn't know you better, it would be almost insulting.

The likes of Orban are the bane of this region and my country in particular. They represent everything which is wrong about politics, and they cater to the asia-bound darker side of our culture and national habits. If none of his kind ever gets near politics it will be too much.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:48:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:37:28 PM
The IMF doesn't have growth "goals."  IMF programs include growth forecasts because you need those to forecast revenues.  You need to forecast revenues so you can forecast how much external financing the country needs.

There is an upside: not getting shut out of the capital market forever and running the reduced deficit that IMF financing allows you to.
They have growth as a goal which part of why, running alongside austerity and banking reform in Hungary, they wanted structural reforms which should reinforce the success of austerity.  I don't mean goals as in 'we will achieve 2% growth'.  No-one has that outside Cuba.

An upside people can care about or understand then.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:48:17 PM
An upside people can care about or understand then.

And you think this point *supports* your argument that populists are always right?  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
And you think this point *supports* your argument that populists are always right?  :lol:
I don't think populists are always right, I mean I hate what Orban's doing.  I can't stand Thatcher.  I've got three points on this:
Populism is necessary for democracy.
Personally I'd almost always take the populists over elitist, technocratic politics.
The people almost always get it right.  I don't know in all circumstance but when I think about elections that I know about in countries I've any knowledge of I think the people get it right.  I can think of one election in the post-1918 era in the UK which was the worst choice.  Same goes for the US and France.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 04:43:23 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 12, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
And you think this point *supports* your argument that populists are always right?  :lol:
I don't think populists are always right, I mean I hate what Orban's doing.  I can't stand Thatcher.  I've got three points on this:
Populism is necessary for democracy.
Personally I'd almost always take the populists over elitist, technocratic politics.
The people almost always get it right.  I don't know in all circumstance but when I think about elections that I know about in countries I've any knowledge of I think the people get it right.  I can think of one election in the post-1918 era in the UK which was the worst choice.  Same goes for the US and France.

:blink:

Populism is almost certainly necessary for democracy, but to say "the people almost always get it right"?  That's almost patently untrue in almost any and every country from time to time.  YOu need only look at Italy and I will rest my case.

I'm not saying that I want rule by a technocratic elite.  Certainly not.  It's just that in a democracy the price you pay is that the people are sometimes wrong.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 07:43:35 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 12, 2012, 04:43:23 PM:blink:

Populism is almost certainly necessary for democracy, but to say "the people almost always get it right"?  That's almost patently untrue in almost any and every country from time to time.  YOu need only look at Italy and I will rest my case.

I'm not saying that I want rule by a technocratic elite.  Certainly not.  It's just that in a democracy the price you pay is that the people are sometimes wrong.
I don't think you do pay that price in general.  As I say of all British elections, since suffrage, I think we made the wrong choice maybe once (Heath - 70).  In the US I think it's similar (Carter - 76).  In Presidential elections in the V Republic I don't think the French have got it wrong. 

I don't know about Canada, but I think if you look back at the available options, even though you're on the right and may back one party, the people generally get it right.

With Italy you've a point :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on January 12, 2012, 08:50:03 PM
Get it right?  It's not like either party is especially right or wrong, most of the time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 11:31:38 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 12, 2012, 03:27:58 PM
I think they're the only sector of the poulation which has generally liberal views.  They'd be understood in modern terms.  I don't mean that we'd return to a point which ignores the achievements of the 19th century (such as abolishing child labour), far less the 20th (the security of the welfare state).  But with that electorate I think you'd be more likely to have a majority in favour of a laissez faire attitude to social issues and a generally laissez faire attitude to the economy, low taxes and all the rest.  Basically the Languish vote :P

The Languish vote shall prevail as our opponents break under the weight of unsustainable debt -_-

Right now we just wait and complain on the internet.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 13, 2012, 09:22:14 AM
Our President (powerless figurehead, now more than ever before, being a career ass-kisser, well regarded athlete then diplomat during the commie era, great proud national olympic boss after commie times, now chief arse-cleaner of Orban) has been discovered of getting his doctorate via copying the work of a Bulgarian sport historian, back in the days.

In other words he cheated.

The ones prone to conspiracy theories raise the concern that just how the journalist who did the busting (in a left-leaning newspaper) did happen on the discovery decades after it happened, with the original source material being obscure nowadays, to say the least.
These people suspect this is the preparation to have Orban flee to Presidentship, and later change us to a Presidential system when the storm goes away.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 16, 2012, 07:34:15 AM
The PM was speaking in front of some farmer organization or whatever today:

-we should eat healthy hungarian food instead of foreign trash
-it is a shame that the people of the villages buy their food instead of growing it*
-the war for arable lands and drinking water is well under way already, not with weapons, but with credit downgrades


*-yes that is the Hungarian PM wishing for subsistence farming outside of cities. Thanks!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 16, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 13, 2012, 09:22:14 AM
Our President (powerless figurehead, now more than ever before, being a career ass-kisser, well regarded athlete then diplomat during the commie era, great proud national olympic boss after commie times, now chief arse-cleaner of Orban) has been discovered of getting his doctorate via copying the work of a Bulgarian sport historian, back in the days.

In other words he cheated.
Does he have slimy hair and is married to a great-granddaughter of Bismarck?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 18, 2012, 08:04:02 AM
Guess the EU Commission has lawyers who think like me and not Sheilbh:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16593827
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 18, 2012, 08:11:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2012, 08:04:02 AM
Guess the EU Commission has lawyers who think like me and not Sheilbh:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16593827

Clever ones. Single out 3 secondary issues (well except for the central bank thing) which are easily corrected by the government without giving up it's ground of total control back home.
Win-win situation: EU can claim they are strong and care, without forcing a real conflict with Orban.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 18, 2012, 08:13:22 AM
I think this is more to do with the fact that these are the issues the EU has a legal standing to challenge. What would be the primary issues by the way?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 18, 2012, 08:16:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2012, 08:13:22 AM
I think this is more to do with the fact that these are the issues the EU has a legal standing to challenge. What would be the primary issues by the way?

Well I know it's not easy, indeed the probable prime concerns are out of the EU's reach (which is kinda silly but there you go).

My main concerns are stuff like their new budget council, appointed for 9 years and being able to veto the budget made by the government, the ridicoulous new voting districts, the extreme speed-up of the parlaimentary process which are practically near to ruling by decree.
All these stuff which by their own appear as small mockeries of democracy, but put together look ugly and very dangerous.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 18, 2012, 12:19:49 PM
The next big national holiday, and as all big national holiday, a traditional date to demonstrate your frustration with the government, is 15th of March, when a huge-ass demonstration in 1848 coerced the Habsburgs into acceptin a surprisingly modern "constitution" for Hungary (to be revoked in a few months).
This was a regular date for taking opposition people into custody by the police, even in the late 1980s.


FIDESZ appears to be secure in, well, securing the day. Apparently the government has reserved all the squares, streets, and spots in Budapest which matter and where people could gather, so the police would have to decline each and every opposition demonstrations.

I just hope the people will go anyway. Heck, if they fail to deal with the IMF by then, I will go myself.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 20, 2012, 03:18:57 AM
There is still no  progress on the matter of the city council of Budapest reserving each and every spot in the city for the national holiday in March.

The "Milla" organization, growing out of a facebook group called "one million for free press" (well, they never got even near to that number) is the one pushing this thing. Allegedly, the city council told newspapers that they want to come to a compromise with Milla, but they in turn say they haven't been approached yet.

But in the meantime, they decided to troll the city council and the government back, and filed a reservation request of  their traditional place for demonstration with the police, for the next 100 years.  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 20, 2012, 08:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 20, 2012, 03:18:57 AM
There is still no  progress on the matter of the city council of Budapest reserving each and every spot in the city for the national holiday in March.

The "Milla" organization, growing out of a facebook group called "one million for free press" (well, they never got even near to that number) is the one pushing this thing. Allegedly, the city council told newspapers that they want to come to a compromise with Milla, but they in turn say they haven't been approached yet.

But in the meantime, they decided to troll the city council and the government back, and filed a reservation request of  their traditional place for demonstration with the police, for the next 100 years.  :D

Actually, they did that because the council and the government made the reservations until the next elections, 2014.

There is a map made showing the reservations which wouldnt tell much to you, but the point is that any possible demonstration place at the center of the city, and the less user friendly but traditional (bridge heads mostly) ones have been reserved.

In the meantime, tomorrow a pro-government gathering will take place, including organized groups of Hungarians from accross the border coming to show support. That will bode well with the locals, having people who are not living here tell us what we should think.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 20, 2012, 09:12:16 AM
Wait, let me get this straight, the government exploited the system and effectively prevented any public gathering from taking place in Budapest until 2014? Wow. You guys are sliding to a third world tyranny pretty fast.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 20, 2012, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 20, 2012, 09:12:16 AM
Wait, let me get this straight, the government exploited the system and effectively prevented any public gathering from taking place in Budapest until 2014? Wow. You guys are sliding to a third world tyranny pretty fast.

Yes, at least on the two most prominent national holidays, which have been the traditional times to show unrest (FIDESZ used to hold massive gatherings on these dates while in opposition)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 21, 2012, 11:40:33 AM
A big (could be up to a 100k people) pro-government demonstration is underway right now.

Just in case the world might think we don't like the system Orban is building.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 21, 2012, 03:02:24 PM
I wonder what effect his demonstration will have. I am pretty sure it's chief aim was to hold a test before the 15th of March, see if Orban should try and organize a party gathering of his own.

But, what this comparatively massive (much more people came to support him, then to denounce the new constitution) gathering will mean to him? Will he think that laying down to the EU and the IMF is not necessary at all costs then? That if he still have total mob supremacy even after the things he have done and popularity lost, he can survive a bankrupcy?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 21, 2012, 03:15:08 PM
Tam, I haven't really followed the developments in the Nepkoztarsasag.  Could you please provide an executive summary of what sucks?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: AnchorClanker on January 21, 2012, 04:03:32 PM
Dig up Horthy and clone him.  You can't go wrong.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 22, 2012, 01:50:48 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 21, 2012, 03:15:08 PM
Tam, I haven't really followed the developments in the Nepkoztarsasag.  Could you please provide an executive summary of what sucks?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630970_6773e33bea7a54168ffc64356f3edb63_qof.jpg&hash=ea0f22fa6b89664af142998e4a47583ef71a4701)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630918_ffcaf2a19320962d68ef9fd12493d27e_qof.jpg&hash=37502df86de36eaeda8cb8caca1f1d67dd31eec5)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630926_93ce81e2c32532931a7cd39a3331de74_qof.jpg&hash=223f41c80c8f4a17deb789e33a118e1cc74f1e0e)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630966_c28b9e9ec3f85a615447845d9404d43e_qof.jpg&hash=1a0b397dce14ea3dd7ab5a15f186274795c0818b)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgaleria.index.hu%2Fbelfold%2F2012%2F01%2F21%2Fa_kormanyert_is_tuntetnek_meg_ellene_is_kepes_osszefoglalo_a_szombati_demonstraciokrol%2F2630920_ef9c32296bd7f7987f3fa152367f4cf7_qof.jpg&hash=1bc94e1708e941126c7b2c540d8ce60b0cf50ae5)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 22, 2012, 01:52:23 PM
Marches with torches? How retro.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 22, 2012, 03:00:59 PM
So they hold up paintings?  I expected something more malevolent, like wearing a Gypsy's face as a Hallowe'en mask or stoning a non-Catholic for witchery.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on January 22, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Who wants to colonize Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on January 22, 2012, 03:56:34 PM
Nice of them to hold up signs in English.  What's the deal with the ages of the EU, IMF, US and Hungary?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 22, 2012, 04:03:05 PM
Hungary is more decrepit and senile than the U.S.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jaron on January 22, 2012, 04:05:44 PM
I'm not sure I could consider Hungary an uninterrupted state with a millennial history in clear conscience. I believe it would be more accurate to say Hungary is  94 years old.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 22, 2012, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 22, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Who wants to colonize Hungary?

The EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 22, 2012, 10:53:04 PM
Quote from: Jaron on January 22, 2012, 04:05:44 PM
I'm not sure I could consider Hungary an uninterrupted state with a millennial history in clear conscience. I believe it would be more accurate to say Hungary is  94 years old.

I would at the very least start after the reconquista by the Habsburgs.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 23, 2012, 09:21:28 AM
To ease myself on the "government zombies went to the street in considerably greater numbers than the opposition did two weeks ago", here is picture from Budapest, 1st of May celebrations, 1957:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fne%2Fnemtetszikarendszer%2Fimage%2FMajus1_08.jpg&hash=1b7d35f21c0bb2bfe03a70748204cdcb6aaf043f)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 23, 2012, 09:34:28 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2012, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 22, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Who wants to colonize Hungary?

The EU.

The EU is really scrapping at the bottom of the barrel, isn't it?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 24, 2012, 09:59:02 AM
Not sure how widespread this is, but due to high taxes we have had these cafeteria bonuses employers can give out. Important to our present story are the meal vouchers. On a limited amount, they come with reduced taxes on them.

Personally, I find the whole concept an abomination - make due with tax levels which does not necessitate these stuff. But anyway.

The present government will, from this year, only give tax bonus on electronic "voucher" cards, not the paper-based ones which have been widespread. Nice? Not quite so, first of all because the main bonus comes from implementing a state-licensed voucher card. Plus, read on.

-There has been only one such card-based system in the country, used by OTP, the biggest Hungarian bank. It's owner is one of the closest allies of Orban, one of the two well-known "oligarch" backers of him (beside MOL, our oil company). So they gave a very nice jumpstart in this newly created market for the pals

-where else do their friends have significant business interest? Hungarian supermarket/shop chains. So, the state agency responsible for integrating applicant businesses into the card-system refuses to negotiate with foreign shop chains, and the small local business can only get the green light for it if they join through a Hungarian chain's infrastructure, ie. succumbing to it.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ideologue on January 24, 2012, 03:08:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 23, 2012, 09:34:28 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 22, 2012, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: Zanza on January 22, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Who wants to colonize Hungary?

The EU.

The EU is really scrapping at the bottom of the barrel, isn't it?

Germany needs a buffer zone between it and the Soviet Union.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 07, 2012, 01:26:03 PM
Hey Tamas, why did you keep this from us?  :lol:

http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2011/11/horror-fourteen-pictures-to-accompany-the-new-hungarian-basic-laws.html (http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2011/11/horror-fourteen-pictures-to-accompany-the-new-hungarian-basic-laws.html)

QuoteHorror: Fourteen pictures to accompany the new Hungarian Basic Laws

The Orbán government's first dabbling in art ended in ridicule. That was during the first "reign" of Viktor Orbán. His much admired "historian," István Nemeskürty, apparently ordered a very large canvas depicting the members of the Orbán-Torgyán government together with important symbols of that period. At the end the government refused to pay for it. One ought to take a second look at this "masterpiece" to appreciate the second attempt of Viktor Orbán and his friends to make themselves immortal.

Well, one laughing stock wasn't enough. Ten years later, the second Orbán government ordered fifteen new "masterpieces" to the tune of 1.6 million forints apiece to illustrate the history of Hungary between 1867, the date of the Compromise, and today. At present they are being kept in the National Széchenyi Library protected by armed guards. I don't think that anyone would like to steal them. Maybe the government is afraid of defacement.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fesbalogh.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a00e009865ae58833015392e64de4970b-pi&hash=7ae531d27ac86d8fbc22d4ef449d16dd671c69ca)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fesbalogh.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a00e009865ae58833015392e66ba6970b-pi&hash=2925c72544b6202e787c9d4a4d4f66530bee8056)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 07, 2012, 01:34:06 PM
I thought I posted it :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 07, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 07, 2012, 01:34:06 PM
I thought I posted it :P

We would have remembered something as corny and eye-bleeding as that.  :lol: A couple of them are legitimate, but others are...well...how to say it...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Iormlund on February 07, 2012, 05:35:16 PM
I love the first one. It even has one of my favorite memes, the facepalm.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 08, 2012, 05:38:09 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 07, 2012, 05:35:16 PM
I love the first one. It even has one of my favorite memes, the facepalm.

The whole thing just oozes the style, rethoric, and talent of the current regime.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 08, 2012, 05:48:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 24, 2012, 09:59:02 AM
Not sure how widespread this is, but due to high taxes we have had these cafeteria bonuses employers can give out. Important to our present story are the meal vouchers. On a limited amount, they come with reduced taxes on them.

Personally, I find the whole concept an abomination - make due with tax levels which does not necessitate these stuff. But anyway.

The present government will, from this year, only give tax bonus on electronic "voucher" cards, not the paper-based ones which have been widespread. Nice? Not quite so, first of all because the main bonus comes from implementing a state-licensed voucher card. Plus, read on.

-There has been only one such card-based system in the country, used by OTP, the biggest Hungarian bank. It's owner is one of the closest allies of Orban, one of the two well-known "oligarch" backers of him (beside MOL, our oil company). So they gave a very nice jumpstart in this newly created market for the pals

-where else do their friends have significant business interest? Hungarian supermarket/shop chains. So, the state agency responsible for integrating applicant businesses into the card-system refuses to negotiate with foreign shop chains, and the small local business can only get the green light for it if they join through a Hungarian chain's infrastructure, ie. succumbing to it.

I think this is pretty normal, no?

Benefits given to employees are income like anything else, especially when given in a cash form (or cash equivalent, like "gift cards" and the like). Why should they be taxed differently?

The tax authorities here go even further - there is a new line of case law which for example tries to make stuff like parties for employees a taxable income, but hopefully this will be crushed in courts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 08, 2012, 07:09:21 AM
Because the entire reason to give it is the tax break. We are talking about foodstamps FFS.

I don't like them as I said, the taxes should be on a bearable level and there would be no need for these.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 08, 2012, 07:12:38 AM
I dealt with this a lot in my old job.  It's not common everywhere but lots of countries have something like it.  It's company benefits-in-kind.  Employers liked them because they were cheaper than wages and tax free.  It's like a really shit company car.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 08, 2012, 07:29:47 AM
Yes, in Austria you can give meal vouchers up to 4.40€/day tax free. Also, 1/6 of the annual income can be paid as "special payments" at reduced tax rates (de facto 13th/14th salary, paid end of May and end of November).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2012, 09:01:32 AM
First one looks like a Holy Grail interlude.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 10, 2012, 03:48:17 AM
the FIDESZ faction is having a congress closed off to the public. But some informations are allegedy leaked.

Including that Orban told the inner circle that the international attacks on him are part of an international conspiracy, reaching as far as the United States, and the CNN.  :tinfoil:

Also allegedly, he urged a "hunt for moles", beause a few FIDESZ MPs voted "no" on the appointment of the head of the new authority over the judges in the country. She happened to be the wife of one of FIDESZ's most prominent members.


:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 05:29:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 08, 2012, 07:09:21 AM
Because the entire reason to give it is the tax break. We are talking about foodstamps FFS.

I don't like them as I said, the taxes should be on a bearable level and there would be no need for these.

I think you don't understand what a food stamp is.

I fail to see why a monetary benefit (i.e. remuneration) should be taxed differently than a non-monetary one. Both provide the employee with a taxable, financial gain.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 20, 2012, 08:15:51 AM
President of the Parlaiment, Laszlo Kover, 3rd official of the country, had an interview on Sunday.

He was always the most openly radical of the ancien regime within FIDESZ. His remark about opposition voters "could might as well go down the basement and hang themselves" was great munition for the opposition for a while.
But he is of the core of FIDESZ, childhood friend of Orban, so his voice supposedly carries weight.

He made three interesting points:

-Parlaiment should receive a separate guard force, independent of regular law enforcement. Because "the police, or the Republican Guard (don't be fooled by the name, it is a security team with a fancy title) cannot react fast enough if something happens in the parlaiment"

-There should be more severe punishments for MPs diverging from the house order

-the government's efficiency is highly hindered by the need to go through the Parlaimental voting process. "The factions should consider" switching to a system where the government has a much broader right to enact laws on it's own, with the Parlaiment approving these after they come into effect.



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Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 20, 2012, 08:20:41 AM
This glorious stateman himself:

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Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on February 20, 2012, 09:17:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 20, 2012, 08:15:51 AM


-Parlaiment should receive a separate guard force, independent of regular law enforcement. Because "the police, or the Republican Guard (don't be fooled by the name, it is a security team with a fancy title) cannot react fast enough if something happens in the parlaiment"





The Capitol police nod sagely at such wisdom.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 22, 2012, 09:32:48 AM
Just saw this on the Guardian's Eurocrisis live blog:
Quote12.09pm: The European Commission is withholding €495m of EU development funds from Hungary after the country failed to reduce its deficit.

These funds are means to support the EU's poorer regions. It is the first time the European Commission has proposed to suspend development funds from one of its members over an excessive deficit.

David Gow reports from Brussels:
Quote
The EC flexed its new fiscal surveillance muscles by threatening to suspend almost €0.5bn in structural aid to Hungary for persistently breaching budget deficit rules.

Olli Rehn, EU economic and monetary affairs commissioner, said: "Today's decision has to be regarded as a incentive to correct a deviation (from fiscal prudence) and not as a punishment."

He told reporters that Hungary had been in "excessive deficit" – breaching the 3% of GDP ceiling – since it joined the EU in 2004 despite repeated warnings to get its fiscal house in order.
Rehn was also dismissive of Budapest's argument that it brought its deficit below the 3% ceiling in 2011, arguing it was due to one-off factors.
Any Magyar rage yet Tamas?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 22, 2012, 09:34:07 AM
nothing yet, I wonder how this story will develop here, if at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on February 22, 2012, 09:49:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 22, 2012, 09:34:07 AM
nothing yet, I wonder how this story will develop here, if at all.
"Hungary doing so well that EU decides it doesn't need developement funds"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 22, 2012, 09:58:12 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 22, 2012, 12:10:54 PM
I wonder if you guys go the same deal from the EU that we did - i.e. that our social security/pension debt is not counted towards the deficit figures.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on February 22, 2012, 12:18:54 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 20, 2012, 08:15:51 AM
-the government's efficiency is highly hindered by the need to go through the Parlaimental voting process. "The factions should consider" switching to a system where the government has a much broader right to enact laws on it's own, with the Parlaiment approving these after they come into effect.
Sounds very much like Hitler's enabling act of March 1933.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 22, 2012, 12:31:59 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 22, 2012, 12:10:54 PM
I wonder if you guys go the same deal from the EU that we did - i.e. that our social security/pension debt is not counted towards the deficit figures.

We didn't. So they nationalized the whole thing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 23, 2012, 02:36:27 AM
We had a national census recently. Privacy concerns were swept aside of course, mainly because EACH QUESTION WOULD BE RESEARCHED INDIVIDUALLY OMG.

Recent news? "based on census data, a lot of gypsies gave buddhism as religion"

Now how the FUCK are you supposed to know that if you kept to what you promised?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 29, 2012, 07:20:39 AM
One of the new opposition organizations which formed during the current reign is "One Million For Hungarian Freedom Of The Press", or in the much more convinient Hungarian abbrevation: EMS.

They started on Facebook (never got even near to a million though) and have been organizing demonstrations, which quickyl became general anti-government gatherings instead of focusing on freedom of press in general.

Their two leaders have been: summoned to the tax authority.

Altough one of them is apparently a retard, since he didn't submit tax papers between 2006-2010, and you would think that once you start going openly against a gang like this, you cover your ass on stuff like these immediately.

Anyways, they say the real focus was on the tax officers trying to gain info on the money flow of the organization: who supports them, who maintains their Youtube channel, that kind of essential stuff to get their tax papers right.

Since the deadline for last year's tax report is this May, the officers offered to help them prepare the papers "just to be sure" - needing all the bookkeeping and inside info on the organization for that, of course.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 10:32:19 AM
Marty, Marty! Let me know if you ride with these folks, I'll go to the opposition demo and we might end up hurling stones at each other:

http://www.gazetapolska.pl/13885-wielki-wyjazd-na-wegry
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:08:57 PM
Hungarian gypsies (also known as just plain hungarians :P ) pick pocketed Antonio Banderas. Not really politics, but i thought it was funny :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:08:57 PM
Hungarian gypsies (also known as just plain hungarians :P ) pick pocketed Antonio Banderas. Not really politics, but i thought it was funny :D

Banderas looks more gypsy than I do  :mad:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:12:26 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:08:57 PM
Hungarian gypsies (also known as just plain hungarians :P ) pick pocketed Antonio Banderas. Not really politics, but i thought it was funny :D

Banderas looks more gypsy than I do  :mad:
different type of gypsy, but yes, yes he does :lol:

'sides, you're the best kind of gypsy. the one that can "pass" and infiltrate otehr groups. i'm on to you!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:12:26 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 08, 2012, 12:08:57 PM
Hungarian gypsies (also known as just plain hungarians :P ) pick pocketed Antonio Banderas. Not really politics, but i thought it was funny :D

Banderas looks more gypsy than I do  :mad:
different type of gypsy, but yes, yes he does :lol:

'sides, you're the best kind of gypsy. the one that can "pass" and infiltrate otehr groups. i'm on to you!

an important piece of advice for you folks: do not think it is a good prank to call a hungarian a gypsy. It is right there with calling an arab a jew, a jew an arab, anyone a polack, you get the picture.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: chipwich on March 08, 2012, 12:20:26 PM
So it's true then?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 08, 2012, 12:23:04 PM
Quote from: chipwich on March 08, 2012, 12:20:26 PM
So it's true then?

:lol: no it's not.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2012, 04:06:28 PM
Recent snipets. I actually didn't listen to things that much recently. Hungary becoming a Belorussia, or at least an Ukraine, is a given, so why bother.

-according to the new education bill/law, elementary school students will have to choose between attending either a "morality" class, or faith studies  (not sure on the translation of this - it's when a priest gets a weekly class with children to touch, I mean, educate them in biblical matters). So basically they can get to choose between learning religious stuff from a teacher, or a priest.

-allegedly, Orban recently voiced his confusion in a shor interview, about why he should listen to the EU officials, who run the EU "worse than a run-down village" and lack legitimacy to make demands

-regarding the small fact that they assured the markets an IMF deal would be signed in March, while the negotiations haven't even started to this day, he said that he "has been sitting at the negotiating table for months. But they [the IMF and the EU] are not coming"

-a bunch of French liberals are coming to the opposition protests this Thursday, while a bunch of Polack bumfucks come to protest in support of Orban. Inquire for free bus rides to Budapest, and let me know if you come. We can yell insults either together, or at each other, depending on which demo you choose. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 03:25:48 AM
 :lol: at the first celebrational event of the day, the Kazycnski fanbois seriously outnumber the Hungarians - the whole "crowd" is just drown in the forest of Polish flags. Signs are wield saying "Orba, Kazyncski, lead us on Warsaw" and the like. Hillarity.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 03:36:30 AM
It is also sad though. There is a supposedly politics-free national celebrational event, and we have a Polack journalist on stage, pouring rightist, EU-bashing propaganda
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 15, 2012, 05:40:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 12, 2012, 04:06:28 PM
-according to the new education bill/law, elementary school students will have to choose between attending either a "morality" class, or faith studies  (not sure on the translation of this - it's when a priest gets a weekly class with children to touch, I mean, educate them in biblical matters). So basically they can get to choose between learning religious stuff from a teacher, or a priest.

Actually that's what we have been having for the last 10 years or so.

You either get a (Catholic) religion class (usually taught by a priest or a nun but sometimes a lay person) or you get an ethics class (which, at least supposedly, teaches about ethical systems from a more neutral perspective). The main problem with that system is that due to peer pressure/conformity, a very small number of students are ever sent by their parents to ethics classes (but that number is increasing), and often there just aren't enough qualified teachers for that.

The upside however is that nothing seems to make young people hate the Catholic religion as much as having to learn it as a class in the public school.

There is now a growing vocal minority that wants to do away with that system and kick religion out of schools - even a lot of Catholics admit that the way it was during the communist era (kids going to religion classes ran by the Catholic church in "Sunday school" type of set up) was preferable. However, since this comes with money (priests and nuns getting paid to be teachers by the state), the greedy priests won't give that one up without a fight.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 10:00:12 AM
The PM's speech is exactly like the one a year ago: basically that we are a financial colony of the EU, fighting hard for our independence, and to protect the progress we have achieved with the new constitution, against forces of evil repressive backward people, mobilized by the Hungarian opposition.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 15, 2012, 10:29:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 15, 2012, 05:40:10 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 12, 2012, 04:06:28 PM
-according to the new education bill/law, elementary school students will have to choose between attending either a "morality" class, or faith studies  (not sure on the translation of this - it's when a priest gets a weekly class with children to touch, I mean, educate them in biblical matters). So basically they can get to choose between learning religious stuff from a teacher, or a priest.

Actually that's what we have been having for the last 10 years or so.

You either get a (Catholic) religion class (usually taught by a priest or a nun but sometimes a lay person) or you get an ethics class (which, at least supposedly, teaches about ethical systems from a more neutral perspective). The main problem with that system is that due to peer pressure/conformity, a very small number of students are ever sent by their parents to ethics classes (but that number is increasing), and often there just aren't enough qualified teachers for that.

The upside however is that nothing seems to make young people hate the Catholic religion as much as having to learn it as a class in the public school.

There is now a growing vocal minority that wants to do away with that system and kick religion out of schools - even a lot of Catholics admit that the way it was during the communist era (kids going to religion classes ran by the Catholic church in "Sunday school" type of set up) was preferable. However, since this comes with money (priests and nuns getting paid to be teachers by the state), the greedy priests won't give that one up without a fight.

That's the way it has been done in Spain since the democracy as well, and nowadays the people who attend religious classes are the minority. In my high school they definitely were. They (or rather their parents) are an extremely vocal pressure group, though.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 15, 2012, 10:41:08 AM
Most states in Germany have religious education in school, but by teachers, not priests. However, the teachers need to be approved by the Church. You can usually opt out and do something like philosophy/ethics instead.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 05:27:37 PM
Marty's east euro spit on the Goldman thread reminded me about this nazi blog-commenter who polluted most of the political blogs I was reading this last couple of days with his discovery about the French intellectuals who planned to come and support our opposition demo tomorrow.

It was genius. So on the list, there were some peeps with German-sounding names. So he labelled these jews. Than there were like one or two people with Hungarian-descent last names. These weren't jew-sounding, so they were labelled as jews, as surely they changed their family names. There was this one french guy whose name was way too french-sounding for the first two conditions, but it is ok, he claimed that the school this guy teaches at was of a huguenot-jewish foundation some 400 years ago, so clearly the guy is in on the whole conspiration thing.

:lol:


In general, either the government has lost all blog-commenter's support except for the nazis, or the population is radicalizing faster than I would have thought, as simply there was almost no comments which supported the government, and didn't consist various levels of anti-semitism.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 16, 2012, 06:21:32 AM
We have Religious Education in High School that you have to do until you're 14 after which it's a choice.  You have to learn a bit about the 6 major faiths and then go in-depth into one (almost always Christianity because that's what the teacher knows) though if you want you can do your own thing.  At primary school, though, RE was taken by the local Kirk Minister and he'd also take assemblies which would involve hymns and that sort of thing.  The worst thing about it was that the Church of Scotland disagrees with set prayers so they sort improvise them, and our Minister's used to go on for ages and there were lots of fidgety unhappy 10 year olds.

Back before I was at school the local Minister was a fierce fire and brimstone Kirk preacher.  So the local Catholic priest used to go to the schools at the same time to take the Catholic kids out for separate RE.  Apparently this started after an unfortunate incident where the RE lesson descended into promises of anti-Roman eternal damnation :lol:

On Hungary I'm glad the EUSSR opinions made the bold leap from right-wing British blogs to national politicians:
QuoteHungary prime minister hits out at EU interference in national day speech
Viktor Orbán on collision course with Brussels as his government attempts to revive aid talks to keep Hungary afloat

Share 190  reddit this
Ian Traynor, Europe editor
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 15 March 2012 18.19 GMT
Article history

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Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán, centre, delivers a speech in front of the parliament building in Budapest. Photograph: Bernadett Szabo/Reuters

Hungary's strongman prime minister, Viktor Orbán, delivered a stinging broadside against Brussels on Thursday, likening EU bureaucracy to Soviet tyranny and casting himself in the mould of Hungarian heroes fighting to free the country from foreign domination since the 19th century.

Locked in dispute with Brussels for more than a year over media freedoms, economic policy, the central bank, and the judiciary, Orbán put himself on a collision course with the EU just as his government is attempting to secure credits of €20bn (£17bn) to keep Hungary afloat.

Addressing tens of thousands of supporters on Hungary's national day, commemorating the 1848-49 uprising against Habsburg rule, the prime minister rounded on eurocrats whom he accused of illegitimate interference in the country.

"We do not need the unsolicited assistance of foreigners wanting to guide our hands," Orbán declared in a reference to Brussels' demands for legal and constitutional changes regulating Hungary's central bank, data protection laws, and the retirement age for judges on the supreme court.

Drawing a clear parallel between Soviet domination of Hungary until 1989 and the behaviour of the European authorities, Orbán said: "We are more than familiar with the character of unsolicited comradely assistance, even if it comes wearing a finely tailored suit and not a uniform with shoulder patches."

Orbán enjoys the strongest democratic mandate in the EU, after a landslide election victory in 2010 that gave his Fidesz party a two-thirds majority in parliament. He has used the mandate to draft and rush through a new Hungarian constitution, crack down on media pluralism, and has been accused of authoritarianism and breaking the laws of the EU, which Hungary joined in 2004.

This week, EU finance ministers said they would withhold half a billion euros in funding for Hungary from next year because it was failing to get its budget deficit under control and violating EU rules on fiscal rigour.

The European commission is also threatening to take Hungary to court for breaching EU law, insisting the country amend its legislation to guarantee the independence of the central bank. The commission is also worried about media censorship and control and at moves to force judges to retire, a policy seen as enabling Orbán to rid himself of opponents in key institutions of power.

On Thursday, the prime minister rounded furiously on EU outsiders demanding changes. "Hungarians will not live as foreigners dictate, will not give up their independence or their freedom, therefore they will not give up their constitution either," he thundered in a speech with strong nationalist overtones.

"Freedom means that we decide about the laws governing our own life, we decide what is important and what isn't. From the Hungarian perspective, with a Hungarian mindset, following the rhythm of our Hungarian hearts. We will not be a colony."

The prime minister traced Hungary's freedom fight through the great revolutions of 1848 against Vienna, of 1956 against Soviet communism, and of 1989 when he played a starring role as a young student anti-communist leader.

The message was that Hungary was once more embroiled in a fight for its freedom and that Orbán was the heir to the heroes of Hungary's history. "In 1848 we said that we should tear down the walls of feudalism and we were proven right. In 1956, we said we have to crack, we have to break the wheels of communism and we were proven right," he declared.

"Today also, they look at us with suspicion. European bureaucrats look at us with distrust today because we said: we need new ways. We said we have to break out of the prison of debt and we also declared that Europe can only be made great again with the help of strong nations. You will see my dear friends that we will be proven right yet again."

On Wednesday, Orbán wrote to the European commission requesting support for his attempts to secure crucial standby credits from the International Monetary Fund.

His speech advocated nationalism, protectionism, and reeked of chippiness, arguing that his country was getting a raw deal in the EU. "We have with us the silently abiding Europe of many tens of millions, who still insist on national sovereignty and still believe in the Christian virtues of courage, honour, fidelity and mercy, which one day made our continent great.

"As a thousand-year-old European nation we have one demand. We demand equal standards for Hungarians. As a European nation we demand equal treatment. We will not be second-class European citizens."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 16, 2012, 07:15:47 AM
Can we kick fucking Hungarians out of the EU please?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 16, 2012, 10:14:42 AM
Well if Hungary doesn't want to be second class, they shouldn't elect a fourth-class government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 16, 2012, 10:48:51 AM
Have fun being bankrupt.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on March 16, 2012, 02:15:36 PM
From my favorite lunatic / conspiratorial side (languish excluded), we get the perspective that Orban is actually the democratic hero here (I'm only quoting the first part, the article goes on):

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/will-hungary-be-next-iceland-pm-orban-hungarians-will-not-live-foreigners-dictate

QuoteWill Hungary Be The Next Iceland? PM Orban: "Hungarians Will Not Live As Foreigners Dictate"

When it comes to being a NWO debt slave, one can accept their fate demurely and bent over, like a conditionally habituated dog electroshocked into perpetual submission just as the banker elites like it, with threats that the world would end the second one dared to change the status quo (see Greece), or one can do something about being a debt slave. Like Iceland. And then rapidly proceed to be the best performing economy in Europe. And reading some of the latest news out of Hungary, which has to count its lucky stars is not stuck in the inflexible nightmare that is the mercantilist Eurocurrency union, gives us hope that we may soon witness the next sovereign rebellion against the banker yoke. The WSJ reports: "Hungary's premier fired a new broadside in the country's running battle of wills with the European Union, saying that Hungarians should be free to make their own laws without interference from Brussels.  Speaking to a large crowd of supporters celebrating the anniversary of a 19th-century Hungarian revolt against Austrian rule, Prime Minister Viktor Orban said: "Hungarians will not live as foreigners dictate." This has promptly generated the anticipated response from European unelected dictator Barroso, who minutes ago said that Hungary's Orban doesn't get democracy. Oh, we think he does. What he doesn't seem to get, or like, is existence in a banker-governed technocratic, klepto-fascist state, in which the peasantry is merely an intermediary vessel for asset confiscation by insolvent banks. Like Greece... which however already is the butt of all jokes of personal submission to a foreign oppressor, so there is no dignity in kicking a dog that is down.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 16, 2012, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 16, 2012, 06:21:32 AM
the local Kirk Minister

dammit man, you brits are taking this TOS thing way too far  ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 16, 2012, 03:56:42 PM
The FT Brussels Blog has more:
QuoteHigh quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2012/03/the-eu-soviet-barroso-takes-on-hungarys-orban/#ixzz1pJblfR85

[UPDATED] The EU Soviet? Barroso takes on Orban
March 16, 2012 2:17 pm by Peter Spiegel

[UPDATE] We've obtained the English-language version of Orban's March 13 letter to Barroso requesting assistance on reopening talks with the IMF for a line of credit. The letter can be read here. http://blogs.r.ftdata.co.uk/brusselsblog/files/2012/03/OrbanLetter.pdf

The war of words between Brussels and Budapest continued on Friday, with José Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission, hitting back at Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban, who a day earlier compared Barroso's Commission to Soviet apparatchiks and Hapsburg imperialists.

Orban's tongue lashing, made at a national day rally in front of thousands in central Budapest, came after a series of recent moves by the Commission, the European Union's executive branch, to sanction the Hungarian government for violating EU rules on deficits and democratic institutions.

Through his spokesperson, Barroso questioned Orban's grasp of democratic principles, a rebuke sure to rankle the Hungarian prime minister, who as a young anti-Communist activist became famous for publicly calling for the withdrawal of the Red Army in 1989.

"Those who compare the European Union with the USSR show a complete lack of understanding of what democracy is, in his view," said the spokesperson, adding she was relating Barroso's personal comments. "They also fail to understand the important contribution of all those who have defended and fought for freedom and democracy."

The rhetorical clash comes less than a week after eurozone finance ministers backed a Commission proposal to withhold €495m in EU development funds next year because of Orban's persistent failure to meet Brussels-mandated deficit targets.
Barroso has launched so-called "infringement proceedings" against Orban for provisions in a newly adopted constitution the Commission believes threaten the independence of Hungary's central bank, judiciary and data-protection agency.

The Hungarian government appeared eager to have Orban's Commission-bashing speech widely disseminated, sending out English and French translations to multiple news outlets in Brussels, even as Orban was seeking Barroso's help to kick-start talks between Budapest and the International Monetary Fund over a line of credit. Barroso has blocked the talks because of the new laws governing the central bank.

For those interested, here is a copy of the excerpts of Orban's speech, as provided by the Hungarian government:
QuoteThe political and intellectual program of 1848 was this: we will not be a colony! The program and the desire of Hungarians in 2012 goes like this: we will not be a colony!

Hungary could not have stood against the pressure and things dictated from abroad in the winter of 2011-2012 if it were not for those hundreds of thousands of people who stood up to show everyone that Hungarians will not live as foreigners dictate it, will not give up their independence or their freedom, therefore they will not give up their constitution either, which they finally managed to draft after twenty years. Thank you all!

Don't be misled if tomorrow you will read in the international press that there were only a few hundred people here in the square and even those who were here, rallied against the government.

As things stand, we have not been as strong as we are today for long decades.

As things stand today we are enough in numbers and in our resolve to fight for a free Hungarian life also, after fighting for our liberties.

Freedom for us means that we are not inferior to anyone else. It means that we also deserve respect.

Freedom also means that de decide about the laws governing our own life, we decide what is important and what isn't. From the Hungarian perspective, with a Hungarian mindset, following the rhythm of our Hungarian hearts.

Therefore we write our own constitutions. We do not need writing-lines, nor do we require the unsolicited assistance of foreigners wanting to guide our hands.

We are more than familiar with the character of unsolicited comradely assistance, even if it comes wearing a finely tailored suit and not a uniform with shoulder patches. We want Hungary to revolve around its own axis, therefore we are going to protect the constitution, which is the security for our future.

We have to ask and to respond to the biggest question. Will we submit ourselves to being at the mercy of others until death or will we rely on the virtues which make Hungarians Hungarians, which make sovereignty sovereignty and history history. Will we opt for the fate of a colony or for a Hungarian existence made up and made complete according to the best of our knowledge?

There is one thing that no one can question. Our freedom fights always meant a step forward for the world. They meant progress because we were right. We were right even if everyone denied this.

In '48 we said that we should tear down the walls of feudalism and we were proven right. In '56, we said we have to crack, we have to break the wheels of communism and we were proven right.

Today also, they look at us with suspicion. They looked at us like this in '48-'49, when Europe became silent, silent again, but then the feudalist world disintegrated all around Europe and strong nations were born in its place.

They looked at us like this in '56, but the communist tyranny, that we drove the first nail into, finally collapsed, allowing Europe to reunite again.

European bureaucrats look at us with distrust today because we said: we need new ways. We said we have to break out of the prison of debt and we also declared that Europe can only be made great again with the help of strong nations. You will see my dear friends that we will be proven right yet again.


It was not the feudalist vassals who caused the demise of feudalism, nor was communism destroyed by party secretaries. The rule of speculators will not be terminated by them or by bureaucrats, nor will they come help save the ditched carriage of Europe.

It is not going to be them, but instead it is going to be European citizens living off the fruits of their personal efforts. Because their world has to come. If it doesn't, then the days of Europe are over.

The Youth of March also saw, what many in Europe today refuse to see, that financial independence is a precondition for freedom. This is why they had to include the indispensable demand for a National Bank on their 12-point list.

Although the Youth of March were not board members or bankers, they fully understood the weight of the issue of a national bank. They knew that an independent national bank is not one that is independent from its nation. An independent national bank is one, which protects the national economy from foreign interests. They knew and we also know well that anyone with common sense will not entrust the neighbours with the keys to the pantry.

Our Lithuanian, Czech, Latvian, Slovenian and Romanian friends have all stood up for us. Not only did they stand up for us, they also came, our Lithuanian and Polish friends are here to celebrate with us.

Glory to Lithuania! God bless Poland!

We also have with us the silently abiding Europe of many tens of millions, who still insist on national sovereignty and still believe in the Christian virtues of courage, honour, fidelity and mercy, which one day made our continent great.

There are people, there are many people who still remember 56 and think that "you Hungarians were right". We are capable of standing our ground against the injustice of stronger empires. This is why we are respected by those who respect us. This is why we are attacked by those who are against us.

We understand that Europe has a lot of problems. The clog wheels are creaking, muscles and tendons are flexing.

But as a thousand year old European nation we have one demand. We demand equal standards for Hungarians. As a European nation we demand equal treatment. We will not be second class European citizens. Our rightful demand is to have the same standards apply to us, which apply to other countries. We have learnt that the recovery of Europe and Hungary are inseparable from each other. Any time Europe found itself in distress, the fate of Hungary also took a turn for the worse.
We are not happy, but we understand that European unity is not a unity of saints, but we will not sit and watch idly, if any political or intellectual trend tries to force an unholy alliance on Europe.

Europe cannot surrender and give in; the feeling of belonging together may not weaken it any more. This would lead to the defeat and to the demise of Europe. This is why Europe cannot leave whole countries by the roadside.

If we don't act in time, in the end, the whole of Europe can become a colony of the modern financial system.
Jesus :bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on March 16, 2012, 04:20:55 PM
An eggplant lecturing a beet.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on March 16, 2012, 04:44:41 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 16, 2012, 04:20:55 PM
An eggplant lecturing a beet.  :lol:
:yeah:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 20, 2012, 04:38:40 AM
They are even too lazy to create new internal villains.

Ferenc "omg he admitted he lied" Gyurcsany, the former PM, left the socialist party some months ago, founded a new party, and continues his slide into insignificance.

Now, to stop his new party from forming a faction, a new law will be made to regulate faction-founding, with retrospective effect.

Also, some ex-state official wants him tried with terrorism charges after his comment last week on blockading the Constitutional Court if they don't deal with the appeal his party sent in on who knows what.

Also, the Parlaiment last week decided to investigate the 2006 riots. On the grounds of wether Gyurcsany and the police chiefs committed acts of terrorism during them.

Bluff? By all probability.

But, I read a very good comment regarding Orban and his schenangians with the EU: he keeps raising the ante.
This is very true. After his loss of the PM seat several years, he started to build his support on a state of siege mentality, and the scale of that siege and the enemy just kept growing. Now that he is governing, and the opposition is as weak as it can get without just giving up their seats in Parlaiment, he needs a new enemy, to blame for constant failures and lack of direction - the EU, the big foreign enemies bent on destruction of the Hungarian Way.
Also, after they failed to forge enough evidences for corruption against his arch enemy Gyurcsany, and the socialists in general (of course, the socialists were clever enough to steal money legally), they are now showcasing their crusading spirit through accusations of terrorism. What next? They either stop here and admit defeat, or they will have to act upon this...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 20, 2012, 07:05:29 AM
Apparently a bunch of crazy Polish catholic retirees went to Hungary last week to show their support for Orban (PiS sees Fidesz as the ideal they could have been if they haven't been stopped by "freemasons, Jews, liberal media, feminists and fags"). Has it even registered on the news there?  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 20, 2012, 07:18:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2012, 07:05:29 AM
Apparently a bunch of crazy Polish catholic retirees went to Hungary last week to show their support for Orban (PiS sees Fidesz as the ideal they could have been if they haven't been stopped by "freemasons, Jews, liberal media, feminists and fags"). Has it even registered on the news there?  :D

Read back this thread dude :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 20, 2012, 07:25:50 AM
Just read a story on them in Newsweek. Apparently, they spent their entire trip searching the train for spies and agents.  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 20, 2012, 07:34:27 AM
The Hungarian PM used 'ditched carriage'?  Is Hungary in Africa or something?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2012, 12:14:24 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/mar/20/tunde-hando-hungarian-judges?newsfeed=true

QuoteImagine a European country where one person can pick the judges. And effectively sack them or transfer them to other courts. And draw up court rules. And initiate legislation on the courts. And hold some 60 other specified legal powers.


Now imagine that this individual has been just given a nine-year term of office. And that, even after that term is up, this hugely powerful figure will simply remain in office unless a successor can command a two-thirds majority in the country's parliament. What would you call a country like that?

Read the rest in the article
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 21, 2012, 12:17:11 PM
QuoteNow imagine that this individual has been just given a nine-year term of office. And that, even after that term is up, this hugely powerful figure will simply remain in office unless a successor can command a two-thirds majority in the country's parliament. What would you call a country like that?

Eastern European.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 21, 2012, 12:30:03 PM
They certainly entrench themselves in positions of power.

I posted this on Paradox. Can't wait to see how the usual suspects will tell us that this is alright and no problem at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Lettow77 on March 21, 2012, 12:34:58 PM
 Hungary is a tragic and adorable figure. I hope she manages to suppress the insidious non-Hungarian elements within her society that threaten a revision of the tragedy of Trianon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2012, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 21, 2012, 12:34:58 PM
Hungary is a tragic and adorable figure. I hope she manages to suppress the insidious non-Hungarian elements within her society that threaten a revision of the tragedy of Trianon.

You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that I am racist, or a nationalist, and therefore could bite on a bait like that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on March 21, 2012, 12:46:09 PM
The company I work for has made a very big investment in Hungary. You guys better don't fuck with that or my annual bonus is threatened too.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 21, 2012, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: Zanza on March 21, 2012, 12:46:09 PM
The company I work for has made a very big investment in Hungary. You guys better don't fuck with that or my annual bonus is threatened too.  :P
lol.  You work for stupid people.

What Hungary needs is a cordon sanitaire that will reduce their living standards to Subsaharan levels.  Maybe then they'll learn not to elect dangerous parties or to be so uppity.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 21, 2012, 01:16:12 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2012, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 21, 2012, 12:34:58 PM
Hungary is a tragic and adorable figure. I hope she manages to suppress the insidious non-Hungarian elements within her society that threaten a revision of the tragedy of Trianon.

You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that I am racist, or a nationalist, and therefore could bite on a beet like that.

corrected that for you ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Lettow77 on March 21, 2012, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2012, 12:38:15 PM
You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that I am racist, or a nationalist, and therefore could bite on a bait like that.

No. I am afraid you are an un-Hungarian element that threatens the sacred national consensus Fidesz has achieved. Your posting here is indicative of how worldly you have become, to the point of abandoning the holy struggles of your country.

Kanashii ne ;-;
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 23, 2012, 04:54:06 PM
Zanza, the Paradox thread is comedy gold, and I applaud you for trying to reason with those folks.

What is sad, however, is that these are young people who play historical strategy games and speak English to one degree or the other - their understanding of the world and Europe must be thus better than most of their countrymen...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 23, 2012, 05:19:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 23, 2012, 04:54:06 PM
Zanza, the Paradox thread is comedy gold, and I applaud you for trying to reason with those folks.

What is sad, however, is that these are young people who play historical strategy games and speak English to one degree or the other - their understanding of the world and Europe must be thus better than most of their countrymen...

The golden share of idiocy in that thread is supplied by a Greek, though.

I've already praised Zanza a couple of times before for his patience debating with the knuckleheads over there, either he has saint-like patience or is a masochist debater.  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 23, 2012, 05:20:23 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2012, 12:17:11 PM
QuoteNow imagine that this individual has been just given a nine-year term of office. And that, even after that term is up, this hugely powerful figure will simply remain in office unless a successor can command a two-thirds majority in the country's parliament. What would you call a country like that?

Eastern European.

Dammit!  I was going to say that!  That bastard!  He's always one step ahead. <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 28, 2012, 10:36:04 AM
A committee was formed to determine if the President's doctoral thesis -or whatever the thing is called after which you get your doctor title- is plagiarism or not. For those in the unknown, somebody from the press somehow discovered, that he copy-pasted huge chunks from the work of a Bulgarian fellow. Later, further investigation revealed that he copy-pasted from a German guy as well.

So these smart folks came together and had to decide if this was a bad thing or not. Their report says that while he indeed copied "unusually many pages", it was the fault of the university for not discovering this, not the now-Presidents' for doing this.

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 28, 2012, 03:36:14 PM
Sounds like your PM is the new Berlusconi of Europe, only without the charm or business accomplishments.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 28, 2012, 03:41:56 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 28, 2012, 03:36:14 PM
Sounds like your PM is the new Berlusconi of Europe, only without the charm or business accomplishments.

Well, his father got a mine during Orban's first PMship, his family got a huge-ass winery, for example, and the village football club he played in until recently (at his birthplace) have repeatedly received huge-ass grants, resulting in the most modern youth football academy being there.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2012, 01:45:21 AM
Here is a good example on why it is hard to figure this government out:

A state secretary in the Agriculture Ministry wants to introduce a bill which, in very general terminology, reduce free access to information based on how much specific skills are needed in understanding said information.

Now, he claims that he only had a single thing in mind: to avoid poor unskilled people get confused by plans made during the measurement of land property borders.

This is of course stupid enough, but  the bill, while only a modification on the agrarian laws, if accepted could be used to ad-hoc formulate some very restricting rulings on what publc info can be accepted by whom, in any topic.

And this has been a constant occurance: laws which are supposed to be for a very specific, harmless thing are worded as such so it can be used to the great benefit of the government, if they ever need it.

So what one should think here? That they are deliberately introducing backdoors on the laws so they can bend and suspend democracy and freedom of information when the need arises, or that they are simply totally incompetent, and even their lawyers are too dumb to draft non-retarded bills?!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 29, 2012, 03:37:37 AM
 :lol:

The single decidedly opposition, leftie TV channel mocked the President in their news show yesterday. Everyone and everything was labelled "dr." including the Pope, and Castro.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fco%2Fcomment%2Fimage%2F2012marcius%2Fschmittdr.jpg&hash=16e8b1be052160018d6d3d989b5973b374976ee4)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 31, 2012, 02:59:01 PM
'they should had told me I was supposed to use more quote marks" - the President shall not resign. Couple hundred hippies protest, then everything goes back to normal.

Kinda' funny really - socialist PM says "we lied, let's stop and do something right!" - gets leaked, Budapest burns. Rightist puppet's cheating uncovered, he says "so what?!" - nothing really happens
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 31, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
I have a question.  Is Tamas correct?  Is Hungary really going to the dogs here?  Tamas is a smart guy, and I like him, but he is a bit biased on some things.  On the other hand, I don't know Hungary from shit and what he posts seems legit.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on March 31, 2012, 04:06:59 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 31, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
I have a question.  Is Tamas correct?  Is Hungary really going to the dogs here?  Tamas is a smart guy, and I like him, but he is a bit biased on some things.  On the other hand, I don't know Hungary from shit and what he posts seems legit.
Meh, who cares? I don't eat beets anyway.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 31, 2012, 06:31:02 PM
Beetween you and me Hungary is a hellhole.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2012, 12:57:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 31, 2012, 06:31:02 PM
Beetween you and me Hungary is a hellhole.

being between you and him must be a hellhole indeed
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2012, 01:01:09 PM
The President has the nerve to say on national radio, that his attackers "undermine the respect of the Presidental office"  :lol:

Meanwhile, the leader of the university which revoked his doctoral title resigned. He said that after their decision he immediately noticed a much hostile atmosphere from the ministry they work with, and he did not want to jeopardize the uni, or something like that.

The sad part is of course, that the university tried very hard to help FIDESZ - they initially sent the matter of the doctoral title to the ministry, but they sent it back saying that it is up to the uni. Wrongly assuming that the ministry told what they meant, the uni revoked the title, and apparently faced immediate pressure and hostility.
That's how they work - if you pledge allegiance to Orban, you enjoy their protection no matter what. Go against them, and you are destroyed.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on April 01, 2012, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 31, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
I have a question.  Is Tamas correct?  Is Hungary really going to the dogs here?  Tamas is a smart guy, and I like him, but he is a bit biased on some things.  On the other hand, I don't know Hungary from shit and what he posts seems legit.

I don't know to what extent, but what I've read in places like Economist have been fairly begative towards the current government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 01, 2012, 07:24:16 PM
From the Economist:
QuoteHungary's resilient president
A man of honour, greatly impugned
Mar 31st 2012, 17:50 by A.L.B | BUDAPEST

THERE are two certainties in life, mused Benjamin Franklin: death and taxes. If the great man were alive today, no doubt he would add a third: Hungarian politicians never resign.

President Pál Schmitt has ended what must be the worst week of his career. He spent some of it in Seoul glad-handing world leaders at the Nuclear Security Summit. Mr Schmitt has not previously been known for his thoughts on atomic weaponry or nuclear fusion. His expertise was thought to have been in sports and sports history.

Until Thursday, that is, when the senate of Semmelweis University voted to strip him of his doctorate. The decision followed months of scandal, after hvg.hu, a business-news portal, revealed that Mr Schmitt's doctoral thesis had been copied from other sources. The five-member committee said that 17 pages of it had been lifted word for word, and a further 180 had been partly copied.

The announcement triggered a rare cross-party consensus in Hungarian politics: the president should step down. Even Magyar Nemzet, a right-leaning daily that usually backs the government, published a passionate call for Mr Schmitt to quit.

Most analysts thought it was all over for Mr Schmitt. But then Viktor Orbán, the Hungarian prime minister and a party ally of Mr Schmitt's, stepped in. Asked if Mr Schmitt should resign, Mr Orbán replied that it was for him to decide.

So he did. Just like Ferenc Gyurcsány, the Socialist prime minister who in 2006 triggered days of unrest when he was caught admitting that his government had been lying "morning, noon and night", Mr Schmitt said he was staying put.

Luckily for the beleaguered president, state television was on hand to offer a sympathetic ear. Péter Obersovszky's interview with Mr Schmitt, broadcast on MTV1, was the sort of cringe-making encounter rarely seen in central Europe nowadays. As Mr Schmitt defended his thesis as "honest, manly work", the interviewer enquired:

QuoteI have known Mr President for quite a while, and what I don't understand is this: why are you so restrained? What I mean is that you are a person much more passionate than this, even as president. If these documents had got out earlier, if you had put on your gloves, with the momentum characteristic of you, it is possible that this matter would have never got this far at all.

Squirming? There's more.

QuoteMr President, you have made it clear that you are going to defend your office from political attacks and that you are not willing to yield to political pressure. You are also proving now that the sportsman lives in you. But you were hurt in your honour as a human being; what is more as a popular person who is loved by many. Are you going to sue? Or is it your duty as president to endure this?

For those who want more of this sort of thing, a full transcript is available at the Contrarian Hungarian, a liberal blog.

As for Mr Schmitt, he will now start work on a new degree, he says. Perhaps he could write about political pressure on Hungarian state television.
The transcript:
http://thecontrarianhungarian.wordpress.com/2012/03/31/it-was-honest-manly-work-hungarian-president-pal-schmitt-refuses-to-resign/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 06:47:47 AM
He has resigned!

Too bad I can't watch the hillarity ensuing in the Parlaiment. The House Chairman, the interim (and probably final) successor of the President, was reportedly very upsed after the Prez's announcement and while demanding order, yelled that "nobody to the left of him" deserved their places in Parlaiment. Someone from FIDESZ repeated the "but, everyone got their diploma like that!" argument, etc.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on April 02, 2012, 07:55:32 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense for Orban to combine the Presidency with his Chancellor's position?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 08:41:03 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2012, 07:55:32 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense for Orban to combine the Presidency with his Chancellor's position?

Give it some time.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 08:42:41 AM
Altough I would hate to see Orban do that, as it would be one of the many steps toward his life-long reign, I am not opposed to switching to a Presidental system (ala USA).

Our elections and power structures are about leadership personalities anyway, and seeing how many Hungarians are perfectly fine with the reign of a Dear and Sacread Leader, I think it would suit our collective psyche better.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: citizen k on April 02, 2012, 12:16:47 PM
Schmitt resigns.   :nelson:




Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 01:16:21 PM
Rumor says, that Orban told the others of the faction behind close doors today, that he needs a President "to the right of him [politically]".

If true, that leaves out a lot of semi-acceptable party functionaries of him, let alone any neutral possibilities.

A major political analyst is suspecting two possible candidates - the interim President Laszlo Kover, and the Transylvania priest and Hungarian politican, Laszlo Tokes.

The latter is quite a wild guess I think, but I could see happen.

Tokes is... well, I would be happy to diss him, as a militant nationalist, who divided the Hungarian minority in Romania almost enough to destroy their political weight (which is considerable, by sheer numbers alone - they often ended up being the balance-deciders in elections there).
But the thing is, he kind of founded the Hungarian political presence there. Or at least were the figurehead of it. During the mad, last days of the Romanian communist pocket-Stalin (won't attempt to spell his name), he was among the ones to start the final hostilities by resisting arrest or something like that. His home became a foothold of resistance as others protected him.

So, I hate his current stance, and general political views and attitude, but I can't help feeling a good deal of respect for him - unlike most of the politicans of the day, he is saying the same things he was saying back when it was very dangerous to say them, and he put his life on the line for the things he believed in.

That said, over the years he has become totally exposed financially and politically to Orban, so I am convinced that he is in the PM's pockets.

Kover, on the other hand, is a lunatic. He has always been the party's face toward the radicals. God damn, he recently visited Slovakia officially, as Chairman of Parlaiment, and managed to publicly express views how (then commie) Hungary should had invaded Slovakia when the Slovaks broke our deal regarding a big-ass hydro power plant, which we wanted (and did) cancel.

That episode was back during the last years of Communism. The hydro plant would had been a massive undertaking on the Hungarian-Slovakian border, it could had produced a lot of electricity, but opposition forces quickly rallied behind the handful of greens opposing it, as they saw the cracks on the regime's power and resolve. The whole thing became a symbol of resisting Teh Government, and as such was cancelled.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 02, 2012, 01:24:35 PM
In other news, the hipster urban leftie party, LMP, tried to pull a stunt - in 2009 FIDESZ focused anti-government feelings in a retarded "social referendum", destroying any hints of progress the socialists managed to wheelcart together in 8 years.
LMP wanted to copy this - since FIDESZ made a lot of changes to the labor laws (sucky ones, but considering how underskilled our workforce is, probably necessary - you can't have the plans of running a country on china-style slave labor, and having laws which forbid you that), they came up with a bunch of referendum questions to do these, and some other (like education) stuff back. Which would have ruined the budget, but that didn't stop FIDESZ back in the day, so I guess they thought, why should it stop them, right?

But they needed 200k signatures on their petition for national referendum, and only got 160k in time.

There are 3 alternatives why they failed (beside the people liking FIDESZ so much), I think it's a combination of all:
-people just don't care anymore
-they were afraid of basically registering with name and andress as active opposition. Who knows where that list can end up once submitted to the office handling it
-they know the economy and the budget is in shambles and do not want the few cuts done back so the shit gets even higher
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 06:50:43 AM
The aformentioned Mr. Kover was interviewed by Le Monde shortly before this incident, it was published yesterday.

He told that the IMF has to give us a loan because they gave to Nigeria and Chad as well, and they didn't ask questions there.

It's funny because otherwise they loudly proclaim again and again how the EU and the IMF seek to make us into a colony, how our economy roars with succcess, and how much they do NOT need the IMF loan.

Then they go around DEMANDING that the IMF gives them money, and give it without any questions or prerequisites.

Like a bunch of gypsies.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
heh, this is a very minor thing and I only saw the TV coverage of it via a blog, but to illustrate the state of things here, a Jobbik (nazi party) MP found it important to remember, in Parlaiment, the 130th anniversary of the disappearance of a 14 years old peasant girl in some godforsaken village.

Why? Because back in the days, the popular version was that the local jews kidnapped and sacrificed her for some religious ritual. It became a nation-wide scandal. Even exiled Kossuth wrote about the issue, calling it a medieval prejustice and the shame of our nation.
But hey, trust the nazis to campaign with something which was backward even here, 130 years ago.

Amazing.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszaeszl%C3%A1r_Affair
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 04, 2012, 08:20:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
heh, this is a very minor thing and I only saw the TV coverage of it via a blog, but to illustrate the state of things here, a Jobbik (nazi party) MP found it important to remember, in Parlaiment, the 130th anniversary of the disappearance of a 14 years old peasant girl in some godforsaken village.

Why? Because back in the days, the popular version was that the local jews kidnapped and sacrificed her for some religious ritual. It became a nation-wide scandal. Even exiled Kossuth wrote about the issue, calling it a medieval prejustice and the shame of our nation.
But hey, trust the nazis to campaign with something which was backward even here, 130 years ago.

Amazing.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszaeszl%C3%A1r_Affair

Perhaps they can commemorate the day when a brave mob armed with torches and pitchforks stormed a castle of a Jewish doctor-scientist because he was  suspected of creating monsters using stolen body parts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 06, 2012, 08:23:38 AM
Unleash Marty! The police again banned Budapest Pride. Last year the court had them allow it.

They say it is because of their planned path blocking traffic. Of course, at least allegedly, that route is the exact same as the huge government-supporting march had, and the police had no problems with that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2012, 02:12:25 AM
It appears, in an attempt to milk the EU talk on a financial transaction tax, the government plans to introduce something called that, but much wider: they are planning to tax, well, everything: wire transfers, bill paying via checks, and the like, with a 0.5-1% tax.

Great.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 12, 2012, 03:19:44 AM
Also, since the mass transit company (city-owned) of Budapest is so out of money, their underground trains are starting to fall apart, more and more malfunctions are happening.
The drivers have been issued gasmask, so they can flee the cockpit in case of a fire  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 13, 2012, 08:06:33 AM
Ok, it has happened: I agree with an Orban rhetoric.

They have been getting a lot of flack regarding their flat income tax. Which is of course isn't really flat, since there is a "solidarity" whatever to be payed after a certain income - they added that after it was obvious the budget would collapse otherwise.

Since while they were quick to introduce the flat income tax, they shied away from actually following it with budget cuts.

ANYWAY, some minor newspaper made an interview with him, and he outlined that "social justice" should not be required at the income tax, in his words "when people earn their money" but at the VAT "when they spend it".
So he would prefer multiple levels of VAT accompanying a flat tax, with subsistence goods having a minimal amount, and luxury goods a very high one.

That kind of makes sense. Altough I am not sure why the fuck it would be needed to raise any kind of VAT abote the 27% we have now, but in general I much prefere VAT over income tax, especially in a country like this where everyone cheats and lies about their taxable income. It is much harder to cheat VAT.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 13, 2012, 08:11:21 AM
Speaking of agriculture and linked industries, he had the usual populist shit of eating good local food instead of trashy foreign stuff (good idea, except that only one parameter matters to Hungarians: the price. If the foreign shit looks bad, tastes worse, and comes from dubious sources, but have a few percent lower price than the good quality one, the foreign shit will be bought).
He vowed to support the "reamining Hungarian-owned businesses" (yeah, they were big on handing out land to their pals during their last government as well).
He also said:
"I am sure we can turn this area upside down as well"  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 13, 2012, 09:51:18 AM
Boy, you turn me.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 16, 2012, 11:19:27 PM
I think the Daily Mail's the first Western publication to come out in support of Orban.  I'm just surprised they kept the EUSSR theme as subtext :lol:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2127652/The-new-imperialism-How-Brussels-bullies-Budapest-conforming-European-values.html
QuoteThe new imperialism. How Brussels bullies Budapest for not conforming to 'European values'
By ANDREA HOSSÓ
PUBLISHED: 11:23, 10 April 2012 | UPDATED: 11:24, 10 April 2012
 
Andrea Hossó is an economist. She was born in Hungary, gained her MSc in finance in London and has worked in the City for over ten years.

Something grave is happening around Hungary.

The Council of the EU is threatening the suspension of one third of the country's cohesion funds while the European Commission starts intrusive infringement procedures for a variety of questionable reasons.

The European Parliament, meanwhile, is conducting session after session of frenzied attacks on the legitimately-elected Hungarian prime minister, calling his country undemocratic and dictatorial.

The Venice Commission is issuing scathing criticism on a raft of new laws and the new constitution passed by a democratically-elected parliament replacing the one concocted by the communist dictatorship propped up by occupying Soviet forces.

Analysts are grimly advising the market to play against the Hungarian currency  to put pressure on the Hungarian government to conclude negotiations with the IMF about a new credit package that many hope will tie its hands with economic conditions deemed proper by foreign investors.

The world press is loud with criticism from all walks of life bordering on the absurd from a US professor complaining of Hungarians' bad manners to a Dutch radio host heaping unimaginable insults on the whole country.

The European Handball  Federation wants to fine a Hungarian team because its fans sing the Hungarian national anthem before a game.

There is no end to the bewildering mantra from all corners deploring Hungary's 'descent into the abyss' and its lack of 'European values'.

Who could blame the unsuspecting reader for believing that some horror is shaping up in the bosom of the European Union? The picture is indeed frightening even for someone familiar with Hungary, but for quite different reasons.

The first doubt in the objective observer's mind is the legitimacy of the accusations. What democratic ideals can unelected Brussels bureaucrats who fear nothing more than referenda hold up for others? What kind of disinterested moral judgment can we expect from a bureaucracy that condemns Hungary for failing to conform to 'European' values but remains silent in the face of serious discrimination against ethnic Hungarians in other EU countries?

The EU finds nothing objectionable in Slovakia's stripping ethnic Hungarian citizens of their Slovak citizenship if they apply for Hungarian citizenship, although Slovakia generally recognizes double citizenship for all other citizens.

It has nothing to say about Slovakia's language laws that punish ethnic Hungarians for using their native tongue, or Romania's erasing centuries-old Hungarian tombs in cemeteries.

Amazingly, the EU found no reason to worry about European values in 2006 when the then Socialist government in Hungary ordered police to attack peaceful civil demonstrators who were beaten up, tortured and imprisoned with a brutality redolent of the vilest dictatorships.

Hungarians cannot help noticing the double standard applied to their country in every aspect. The EU wants to suspend cohesion funds for Hungary, one of the very few EU countries that actually kept its deficit to GDP ratio at 3% in 2011 and is likely to keep it so in 2012. 

Recently Spain got approval from the very same EU to increase its 2012 deficit to 5.3% from the targeted 4.4%.

The punishment seems cynical in the midst of a protracted economic crisis where for years now EU governments and the US have been applying countercyclical measures keeping interest rates very low and pumping ample liquidity into their economies. Yet, the EU insists that Hungary keep its deficit under 3% by way of imposing further austerity on a population whose living standards have fallen to levels last seen in the 1970s.

The besieged government would like a standby credit agreement with the IMF to calm the markets agitated by the constant stream of bad news and be able to access the markets on less than punitive terms. After all, the ECB has injected  over a trillion euros of liquidity into eurozone banks to reassure markets and prop up ailing eurozone sovereign bonds.

However, the IMF whose mandate is purely financial and economic refuses to negotiate with the Hungarian government until it has complied with the EU's political demands regarding laws and constitution. Even then, it is unwilling to provide Hungary with a mere credit line as requested but insists on the country accepting a credit package, of course, with strings attached. One of the most important economic policy conditions is the lifting of the special levies imposed on some sectors.

We are now getting closer to the real reasons of the furore surrounding Hungary.

In order to better understand the picture it is necessary to look back into the economic history of the past twenty years. The economic transition of Central Europe from planned to market economy has been hailed a great success. Uncontrolled privatization went nowhere farther than in Hungary. Successive governments heeded the advice of foreign advisers and international organizations  deeming the speedy and often very cheap sale of assets to foreign companies the best way to 'catch up' with Western economic development.

Looking around twenty years later Hungarians find a bizarre economic landscape dominated by a handful of big foreign companies and huge shopping malls with barely a single local name or product. Whole sectors have been wiped out and quite a few remaining ones are almost wholly foreign-dominated. Unemployment is high, the huge external debt inherited and inexplicably taken over from the Soviet era is ballooning fed by intercompany loans from Western companies to their Hungarian subsidiaries. Economic growth is languishing, foreign companies' profits are repatriated and little is recirculated into the local economy.

When the current government came into power in 2010, it found a country in tatters with a dramatically increased external debt burden and huge swathes of the population sinking into inexorable poverty where families – educated, working people – have difficulties paying their utility or dental bills.

In its efforts to reduce debt and thus vulnerability, the government decided to introduce some measures designed to return the economy to growth. Amongst these measures is the temporary windfall tax  on the financial, retail, energy and telecoms sectors, which had been exceptionally profitable.  Such taxes are not without precedent, and banking sector taxes have since been introduced in various European countries.

However, nowhere have they fallen mostly on foreign shoulders because nowhere else is foreign ownership as dominant as in Hungary. Both the IMF and the EU mention  Hungary's 'unorthodox' move taxing mostly 'foreign' companies but fail to mention that these foreign companies have literally taken over almost whole economic sectors. It seems that it is not so much the imposition of windfall taxes but the fact that foreigners have to pay these that they find objectionable.

The rarely mentioned fact is that foreign companies in Hungary have got used to generous tax holidays and financial incentives, and a generally lax operating environment. The special taxes have raised the spectre of a new situation where these privileges and the usual level of excess profits might be reduced.

Thirteen foreign companies in Hungary wrote to the EC in 2010 demanding sanctions against Hungary of the special taxes. Their countries support them and use the EU's institutions to put pressure on Hungary to lift these burdensome taxes and return to the status quo.

Hungary is vulnerable through its heavy indebtedness. It has never been granted debt forgiveness as Poland in 1991 or Greece now. Some financial analysts have recently commented that improving market conditions would be unwelcome as Hungary could then commercially finance itself and would not have to agree to the IMF's conditions. This, in turn, would also lift the urgent need to comply with the EU's political demands which often verge on open interference with Hungarian sovereignty.
This particular configuration is a unique opportunity for the EU to show that small member states have no right to pursue any measure of political or economic independence. 

A sweeping offensive of pejorative news and punitive measures is creating an atmosphere where financial markets become inaccessible and the country can be forced to return to the status quo: economic conditions favouring foreign capital and a political environment preparing the abolition of nations states.

This is colonization in the 21st century. Hungary, and indeed Central Europe, expected better in 1990.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 17, 2012, 12:45:11 AM
QuoteHungarians cannot help noticing the double standard applied to their country in every aspect.

Of course they cannot.  Victimization and paranoia come naturally to many Eastern Europeans.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 01:37:13 AM
QuoteThe rarely mentioned fact is that foreign companies in Hungary have got used to generous tax holidays and financial incentives, and a generally lax operating environment. The special taxes have raised the spectre of a new situation where these privileges and the usual level of excess profits might be reduced

That's sweet. They are right in the companies having these incentives, I don't like these incentives (altough if we don't give them, our neighbors do and I end up toiling away on a farm or something).
HOWEVER, Orban just recently licked Mercedes' shoes clean, and will shortly introduce a new labor law making it much-much easier to screw over easy-to-replace unskilled labor.

So if he is doing anything in regards to these big furreigner companies, it is kissing their ass more than ever.
Except when he is striking them with extra taxes and regulations to favor the oligarchs who helped him to power.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 01:43:53 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 06, 2012, 08:23:38 AM
Unleash Marty! The police again banned Budapest Pride. Last year the court had them allow it.

They say it is because of their planned path blocking traffic. Of course, at least allegedly, that route is the exact same as the huge government-supporting march had, and the police had no problems with that.

Why unleash Marty? I don't think my opinion about Fidesz can be any lower than it is already. It's a kind of a shadenfreude seeing them take that country crashing and burning into oblivion.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 01:49:22 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
heh, this is a very minor thing and I only saw the TV coverage of it via a blog, but to illustrate the state of things here, a Jobbik (nazi party) MP found it important to remember, in Parlaiment, the 130th anniversary of the disappearance of a 14 years old peasant girl in some godforsaken village.

Why? Because back in the days, the popular version was that the local jews kidnapped and sacrificed her for some religious ritual. It became a nation-wide scandal. Even exiled Kossuth wrote about the issue, calling it a medieval prejustice and the shame of our nation.
But hey, trust the nazis to campaign with something which was backward even here, 130 years ago.

Amazing.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszaeszl%C3%A1r_Affair

Wow, Hungarians are dumber than I thought, even dumber than Poles. Why is your nation so fucking stupid, Tamas?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 01:58:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 01:49:22 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2012, 08:05:20 AM
heh, this is a very minor thing and I only saw the TV coverage of it via a blog, but to illustrate the state of things here, a Jobbik (nazi party) MP found it important to remember, in Parlaiment, the 130th anniversary of the disappearance of a 14 years old peasant girl in some godforsaken village.

Why? Because back in the days, the popular version was that the local jews kidnapped and sacrificed her for some religious ritual. It became a nation-wide scandal. Even exiled Kossuth wrote about the issue, calling it a medieval prejustice and the shame of our nation.
But hey, trust the nazis to campaign with something which was backward even here, 130 years ago.

Amazing.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszaeszl%C3%A1r_Affair

Wow, Hungarians are dumber than I thought, even dumber than Poles. Why is your nation so fucking stupid, Tamas?

Well, on the positive side, this has provoked a lot of responses, and allegedly an internal strife within Jobbik, as their "moderates" (I guess they only want to herd jews to camps and not gas them) threw a hissy fit about stuff like that denying them Parlaiment in 2014 (as if).

Orban even took the time to speak in Parlaiment and declare that they shall protect all minorities including jews.

Of course, that is better than saying the opposite or remaining silent, but I can't help feeling sick that in 2012 the "jewish question" is slowly crawling back to Parlaiment.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 02:51:36 AM
I wonder if what we are seeing today (not just in Hungary) is some sort of another "beginning of an end", the way it was before the WW2, or is this simply (post)politics as usual.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 02:54:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 02:51:36 AM
I wonder if what we are seeing today (not just in Hungary) is some sort of another "beginning of an end"

I am growing more and more certain of that :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 03:29:57 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 01, 2012, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 31, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
I have a question.  Is Tamas correct?  Is Hungary really going to the dogs here?  Tamas is a smart guy, and I like him, but he is a bit biased on some things.  On the other hand, I don't know Hungary from shit and what he posts seems legit.

I don't know to what extent, but what I've read in places like Economist have been fairly begative towards the current government.

Yeah, I think they are pretty objective (or at least close to what I call "Languish Euro-Atlanticism") so they are to the right of my views, usually, and close to the centre.

They have been rather positive about the Polish government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 03:30:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 02:54:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 17, 2012, 02:51:36 AM
I wonder if what we are seeing today (not just in Hungary) is some sort of another "beginning of an end"

I am growing more and more certain of that :(

Come on now, I've still got a lot more money to make.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 03:47:30 AM
I  mean, just look at it:

-we are not in de facto major depression, but sure as hell on the edge of it, and has been in a late-30s like stagnation as far as I can tell
-there are major political uncertanities making stuff unpredictable (arab spring comes to mind)
-the states vulnerable to such things are being more and more open to radicalism
-economic weakness jeopardizing European cooperation

we can still turn this around, but will historians of the future b REALLY surprised to see this deteriorate into either some major crisises, or full-blown WW3 eventually?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
A secret, but leaked calculation of the finance ministry revealed that the new student loan system they created (since people were yelling "omg let us learn" and they, as opposition, heavily attacked the socialist government for the plans of abolishing a lot of state-funded college places), is not only very expensive as of this year, basically nullyfing all the meager budget cuts they made elsewhere, but also destined to totally ruin the budget, if left unmodified, by 2020. I am not sure about the details, but they calculate that by 2020, it would double the budget deficit, on it's own.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 17, 2012, 04:31:15 AM
to continue, since the scheme gives state-sponsored artifically low interest rates, the study warns the ministry, that everyone is in the interest of taking the loan when attending college, regardless of needing it or not, since the money they free up that way can be saved or invested with much better interest than they have to pay for the sponsored loan.

Socialism 0 - Human Nature 12425252
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 06:25:06 AM
Once again, it is just one of of the plans, but the mere existance of the idea is mind-blowing. A proposal was leaked from the finance ministry, suggesting to have a communication tax. A small fee on every SMS, phone call, internet connection, etc. 
Yay!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:49:58 AM
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/19/the-new-hungarian-secret-police/


QuoteThe New Hungarian Secret Police

Kim Lane Scheppele
Tuesday 17 April 2012

Brad Pitt knows all about the TEK, Hungary's new counter-terrorism police.

When Pitt was in Budapest last October shooting World War Z, an upcoming zombie-thriller, TEK agents seized 100 machine guns, automatic pistols and sniper rifles that had been flown to Hungary for use as props in the movie. The weapons were disabled and came with no ammunition. But the Hungarian counter-terrorism police determined that they constituted a serious threat.

The dead-pan seizure of movie props made TEK the laughing stock of the world. As David Itzkoff joked in the pages of the New York Times, "If Hungary ever finds itself the target of an undead invasion, its police force should now be well supplied to defend the nation."

Few have taken TEK seriously. But that is a big mistake. In fact, TEK seems to be turning into Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's own secret police. In less than two years, TEK has amassed truly Orwellian powers, including virtually unlimited powers of secret surveillance and secret data collection.

The speaker of the Parliament, László Kövér, now has his own armed guard too, since the Parliament yesterday passed a law that creates a separate armed police force accountable to the Parliament. It too has extraordinary powers not normally associated with a Parliamentary guard. The creation of this "Parlia-military" gives Hungary the dubious distinction of having the only Parliament in Europe with its own armed guard that has the power to search and "act in" private homes.

About the Parlia-military, more later. First, to TEK.

TEK was created in September 2010 by a governmental decree, shortly after the Fidesz government took office. TEK exists outside the normal command structure of both the police and the security agencies. The Prime Minister directly names (and can fire) its head and only the interior minister stands between him and the direct command of the force. It is well known that the head of this force is a very close confidante of the Prime Minister.

TEK was set up as an anti-terror police unit within the interior ministry and given a budget of 10 billion forints (about $44 million) in a time of austerity. Since then, it has grown to nearly 900 employees in a country of 10.5 million people that is only as big as Indiana.

Why was TEK necessary? When it was created, the government said that it needed TEK because Hungary would hold the rotating presidency of the European Union starting in January 2011. During the six months it held this office, Hungary could be expected to host many important meetings for which top anti-terrorism security would be necessary. But even though Hungary's stint in the EU chair is over, TEK has continued to grow.

Eyebrows were raised when János Hajdu, Orbán's personal bodyguard, was appointed directly by the prime minister to be the first head of this new agency. Since TEK's job also included guarding the prime minister, some believed that Orbán had set up the office to get his trusted bodyguard onto the public payroll. Patronage turns out to be the least of the worries about TEK, however.

TEK is now the sort of secret police that any authoritarian ruler would love to have. Its powers have been added slowly but surely through a series of amendments to the police laws, pushed through the Parliament at times when it was passing hundreds of new laws and when most people, myself included, did not notice. The new powers of TEK have received virtually no public discussion in Hungary. But now, its powers are huge.

What can the TEK do?

TEK can engage in secret surveillance without having to give reasons or having to get permission from anyone outside the cabinet. In an amendment to the police law passed in December 2010, TEK was made an official police agency and was given this jurisdiction to spy on anyone. TEK now has the legal power to secretly enter and search homes, engage in secret wiretapping, make audio and video recordings of people without their knowledge, secretly search mail and packages, and surreptitiously confiscate electronic data (for example, the content of computers and email). The searches never have to be disclosed to the person who is the target of the search – or to anyone else for that matter. In fact, as national security information, it may not be disclosed to anyone. There are no legal limits on how long this data can be kept.

Ordinary police in Hungary are allowed to enter homes or wiretap phones only after getting a warrant from a judge. But TEK agents don't have to go to a judge for permission to spy on someone – they only need the approval of the justice minister to carry out such activities. As a result, requests for secret surveillance are never reviewed by an independent branch of government. The justice minister approves the requests made by a secret police unit operated by the interior minister. Since both are in the same cabinet of the same government, they are both on the same political team.

TEK's powers were enlarged again in another set of amendments to the police law passed on 30 December 2011, the day that many other laws were passed in a huge end-of-year flurry. With those amendments, TEK now has had the legal authority to collect personal data about anyone by making requests to financial companies (like banks and brokerage firms), insurance companies, communications companies (like cell phone and internet service providers) – as well as state agencies. Data held by state agencies include not only criminal and tax records but also educational and medical records – and much more. Once asked, no private company or state agency may refuse to provide data to TEK.


Before December 2011, TEK had the power to ask for data like this, but they could only do so in conjunction with a criminal investigation and with the permission of the public prosecutor. After December 2011, their data requests no longer had to be tied to criminal investigations or be approved by the prosecutor. In fact, they have virtually no limits on what data they can collect and require no permission from anyone.

If an organization (like an internet service provider, a bank or state agency) is asked to turn over personally identifiable information, the organization may not tell anyone about the request. People whose data have been turned over to TEK are deliberately kept in the dark.

These powers are shocking, not just because of their scope, but also because most Hungarians knowledgeable about constitutional law would probably have thought they were illegal. After the changes of 1989, the new Hungarian Constitutional Court was quick to dismantle the old system in which the state could compile in one place huge amounts of personal information about individuals. In its "PIN number" decision of 1991, the Constitutional Court ruled that the state had to get rid of the single "personal identifier number" (PIN) so that personally identifiable data could no longer be linked across state agencies. The Court found that "everyone has the right to decide about the disclosure and use of his/her personal data" and that approval by the person concerned is generally required before personal data can be collected. It was the essence of totalitarianism, the Court found, for personal information about someone to be collected and amassed into a personal profile without the person's knowledge.

With that Constitutional Court decision still on the books and not formally overruled, the Fidesz government is reproducing the very system that the Court had banned by creating a single agency that can gather all private information about individuals in one place again. What, one might ask, is left of constitutional law in Hungary?

One might also ask: Are there any limits to TEK's power?

The law specifies that TEK operates both as a police and as a national security agency. When it is acting as a police unit, it has the jurisdiction to spy on any person or group who poses a threat of terrorism, along with anyone else associated with such persons. Hungary, like many countries after 9/11, has a broad definition of terrorism that includes, among other things, planning to commit a "crime against the public order" with the purpose of "coercing a state body . . . into action, non-action or toleration." Crimes against the public order include a long list of violent crimes, but also the vaguer "causing public danger." In addition, TEK also may arrest "dangerous individuals," a term not defined in the criminal law. It is difficult from the text of the law itself to see any clear limits on TEK's powers.

And TEK is very active. On April 7, TEK agents were called in to capture a young man in the small village of Kulcs who killed four members of his family with a machete. And then, in the early morning hours of Friday, April 13, TEK agents conducted a major drug bust in Budapest, arresting 23 people. According to news reports, fully 120 TEK agents were involved in the drug operation, raising questions about whether the drug bust was thought to be part of the anti-terrorism mission of the agency or a rather broad extension of the concept of the "dangerous individual." Either way, the drug ring looked like garden-variety crime. If that is within TEK's jurisdiction, it is hard to imagine what is not.

A You-Tube video of the April 13 drug bust, made available by TEK itself, shows what a middle-of-the-night raid by TEK officers looks like, complete with the use of heavy-duty tools to cut open an exterior door.

Given that this is the video that TEK wanted you to see, one can only imagine the activities of TEK that are not recorded for posterity. (It would be interesting to know, for example, why the audio cuts out at certain points in the clip, as well as what happens between the time that TEK breaks open the door and the time the various suspects are seen lying handcuffed on the floor.)

While its videos are crystal clear, TEK's legal status is blurry, as some parts of its activities are authorized under the police law and others parts are authorized under the national security law. Different rules and standards apply to police agencies and to national security agencies. Moreover, TEK seems to have some powers that exceed those of both police and national security agencies, particularly in its ability to avoid judicial warrants. No other agency in the Hungarian government has both police and national security powers, and it is unclear precisely how the agency is accountable – for which functions, under what standards and to whom. What follows is my best guess from reading the law.

With respect to its powers authorized under the police law, it appears that TEK must act like the police and get judicial warrants to search houses, to wiretap and to capture electronic data when these activities are part of a criminal investigation. When TEK was arresting the machete-wielder and making the drug bust, it was probably acting under its police powers.

But TEK only need judicial warrants when it is engaged in criminal investigations. It doesn't need judicial warrants when it is using its secret surveillance powers in security investigations. When it is acting as a national security agency, TEK only needs the permission of the justice minister to engage in secret and intrusive surveillance. Of course, given that the permissions and constraints are different depending on whether TEK is acting as a police agency or a national security agency, it would matter who decides whether a particular activity is conducted for police or national security purposes and what the criteria are for determining that it is one or the other. The law does not provide the answer to either question.

Suppose someone believes that she has been spied upon illegally by TEK. What can she do to object? First, if TEK is engaged in secret surveillance or data collection, it is unlikely that people will know that they are a target, given the extraordinary secrecy of the whole operation. But even if one finds out that one is being watched, the remedies are not encouraging.

A person aggrieved by TEK's actions may complain to the interior minister, and the interior minister must answer the complaint within 30 days. But given that the interior minister is the minister who controls TEK in the first place, this is not an independent review. If the complainant does not like the answer of the interior minister, s/he may appeal to the Parliament's national security committee, which must muster a one-third vote to hear the petition. At the moment, the 12-member national security committee consists of two-thirds governing party members and one-third members of all other parties combined. If the governing party does not want to investigate a complaint, garnering a one-third vote would mean uniting the whole opposition – or, to put it in more blunt terms, getting the Socialists to work with the neo-Nazis. That is unlikely to happen. Even if the national security committee agrees to hear a petition, however, it would take a two-thirds vote of the committee to require the interior minister to reveal the surveillance methods used against the complainant so that the committee can determine whether they were legal. There is no judicial review at any stage of this process.

TEK operates in secret with extraordinary powers and no one reliably independent of the current governing party can review what it is doing when it uses its most potentially abusive powers. This shocking accumulation of power may explain the Hungarian government's abolition of a separate data protection ombudsman who would have the power to investigate such shocking accumulation of data. Instead, the data protection officer – a post required by European Union law – has been made a political appointee of the government itself. This is why the EU has launched an infringement action against Hungary for failing to guarantee the independence of the office. Now we can see why the EU may be onto something.

As if the powers of TEK are not enough, though, Parliament yesterday authorized another security service with the power to use police measures against citizens and residents of Hungary. The cardinal law on the Parliament itself contains a provision that gives the Parliament its own military, a Parlia-military.

The Parlia-military is an armed police unit outside the chain of command of the regular military or police structures. Its commander in chief is the speaker of the house, László Kövér, who served as minister without portfolio for the Civilian Intelligence Services during the first Orbán government from 1998-2002. The Parlia-military has the power to guard the Parliament and the speaker of the house, as might be expected. But if the Parlia-military is only supposed to guard the Parliament and the speaker, why does it need the powers that the cardinal law gives it?

The law gives the Parlia-military power "to enter and to act in private homes." That's literally what the law says. It is unlikely that the Parliament will want to conduct a plenary session in someone's living room, so one must then wonder just what the Parliament will do if its armed military enters someone's home to "act." In addition to this power, the Parlia-military may also make public audio and video recordings of people. It can also search cars, luggage and clothing. It can use handcuffs and chemical substances (which I assume means tear gas and nothing more, but the wording make it sound like the Parlia-military may use chemical weapons!). The draft law seems to imply that the Parlia-military would have to operate under the constraints of the police law, which would mean that it would need judicial warrants to conduct these intrusive measures. But that is not completely clear. What is clear is that Hungary now suffers from a proliferation of police that are under direct political control.

Until this point, I have thought that the Fidesz government was just attempting to lock down power for itself for the foreseeable future, which was bad enough. But now, with the discovery of these new security services, it seems increasingly likely that the Hungarian government is heading toward the creation of a police state. Actually, it may already be there. But shhhh! It's secret.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 20, 2012, 07:56:32 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_yPVomgotq-k%2FRz6UG9V6v3I%2FAAAAAAAAADg%2FBBQeeqs2Tps%2Fs400%2F5TekHCFCs.JPG&hash=4fa51d0a939b3bfada9379295b3736d09bb7401e)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on April 20, 2012, 07:57:00 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:53 AM
Quote from: Syt on April 20, 2012, 07:56:32 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_yPVomgotq-k%2FRz6UG9V6v3I%2FAAAAAAAAADg%2FBBQeeqs2Tps%2Fs400%2F5TekHCFCs.JPG&hash=4fa51d0a939b3bfada9379295b3736d09bb7401e)

:nerd:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 20, 2012, 09:39:32 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?

leave the country while you still can.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on April 20, 2012, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?
People on Paradox told me that the only problem is EU meddling in your internal affairs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
yeah, I got two bad-boy points on the forum due to my reaction  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on April 20, 2012, 12:06:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
yeah, I got two bad-boy points on the forum due to my reaction  :lol:

Seriously, why the fuck don't you get out before it's too late? Aren't you somewhat educated and shouldn't you be able to get a job in some other EU country?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 20, 2012, 12:11:00 PM
Maybe Tamas is a patriot and will not abandon mother Magyarország.

Or maybe he is still hoping to get one of those super hot Hungarian girls.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 20, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: Threviel on April 20, 2012, 12:06:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 11:55:45 AM
yeah, I got two bad-boy points on the forum due to my reaction  :lol:

Seriously, why the fuck don't you get out before it's too late? Aren't you somewhat educated and shouldn't you be able to get a job in some other EU country?

I thought you were telling Tamas to get out of the Paradox forum before it's too late. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on April 20, 2012, 12:25:30 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?

I dunno man - surely they know there's a line they simply can't cross without Europe putting some pretty massive sanctions in place / kicking them out of the EU.  And refusing to relinquish government after losing an election is that line.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 01:32:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 20, 2012, 12:25:30 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 07:57:36 AM
The scary thought which is growing in me: how can losing an election stay an option for the FIDESZ leadership after these? They have created all this power "infrastructure", which could be very-very easily used against themselves, if they have to relinquish control. Their oligarchs etc. would be just as vulnerable to these private armies for example, as their enemies are right now.

How should I believe that they are planning to hold a fair election in 2 years, when they have built a monster which could destroy them if ever let go of?

I dunno man - surely they know there's a line they simply can't cross without Europe putting some pretty massive sanctions in place / kicking them out of the EU.  And refusing to relinquish government after losing an election is that line.

Yes, of course, good point. Then again, they just replied to the EU regarding the laws the economy-related laws they didnt like. Apparently, they didn't fix what the EU didn't like, and changed what was oroginally okay. Asshatery and provocation when EU and IMF money is a matter of life and death since they won't do austerity.

In other words: I am not entirely dismissing the consipration theories which say that Orban is looking for a controlled defaulting of the country, to finish off the economic conquest of the country by his peers, and make a basis for his future autocratic means.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 21, 2012, 10:02:56 AM
Laszlo Kover, Chair of Parlaiment, and interim President (also future commander of that Parlai-police the NYT article wrote about) had an interview on their TV station.
The quotes reflect the attitude of these heroic fighters of EU opression:

It has been decided that not himself, but an other college buddy of Orban, Janos Ader, shall become President. Speaking about this, and the opposition's criticism on a party-soldier becoming Prez, he reflected that:
"MSZP [the socialists, main opposition party] would do better not to attend the inaguration of the President. At least their presence would not make the occation ugly" He also added:
"It would be better if they weren't in Parlaiment at all, I already talked about this. It is a moral scandal to have them there."

Sharing his wisdom on some whatever-stuff LMP (the new, hipster-ish leftie party) said:
"How dare a 11-12 people faction act like meaningful consultation starts when things go the way they want them to be? That's life, you should have earned more seats."

On LMP's failed attempt to start off a populist referendum:
"A busybody, agressive, arrogant minority dictates. They look like the worst days of SZDSZ [collapsed liberal party]. Unbelievable."

Further thoughts on the new President, and the recent scandal over his predecessor's plagiarism:

"I wonder what they will bring up against Ader. Maybe he ate someone's snacks in kindergarten, or committed household violence when he beat his sister. or I don't know, what will be the theme for the coming months."
"...just because some nobody, lowlife, pen-wielding terrorists think that they can hurt their political opponents most through him"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 23, 2012, 11:29:30 AM
The government unveiled a plan to the EU, which aims to prop up the budget by about 600 billion forints in 2013 (divide by about 290-300 to get the euro value).

Third of it will come from various small cost-cuts, the rest are new taxes. Such as the transaction and communication taxes I already mentioned, and some kind of "insurance tax".

A nice trivia about the cinicism is that a small entry among savings is the elimination of 3 minor taxes. One of which is the 98% tax on public employee severence payments, which they introduce at the start of their reign, and it went back to include all socialist-era dignitaries and their golden parachutes. (they were careful to cut the deadline before anyone from the first FIDESZ government would be affected, though).

In other words, now that nobody significant from the "enemy" remains in office, they will be free to reintroduce golden parachutes for their own people. And they sell this as a development.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on April 23, 2012, 07:14:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 01:32:34 PM
In other words: I am not entirely dismissing the consipration theories which say that Orban is looking for a controlled defaulting of the country, to finish off the economic conquest of the country by his peers, and make a basis for his future autocratic means.

I'm not that well informed, but my understanding from when Orban took over was that Hungary was basically Greece without the euro (thus not much reason for anyone to bend over backward for them). Ie, a trainwreck was coming regardless of how the government behaved. Unless I was wrong, a controlled defaulting is probably the best the country can do.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 25, 2012, 07:28:45 AM
Tamas, what's the deal behind this?  What are the assurances?
Quote1.11pm: There's some good news for Hungary, which has been stuck in a dispute with the European Commission over the independence of its central bank for the past five months.

The EC says it is satisfied with assurances from Budapest that its central bank law would be brought back in line with that of the European Union. That paves the way for talks over financial aid to stabilise Hungary's faltering economy.

There's been a war of words up to this point, with the EC questioning "the quality of democracy" in Hungary; and Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban this week accusing the EU of setting unfair preconditions for talks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 25, 2012, 07:32:56 AM
The assurance I know of is Orban's word. ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 25, 2012, 07:36:17 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 23, 2012, 07:14:52 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 20, 2012, 01:32:34 PM
In other words: I am not entirely dismissing the consipration theories which say that Orban is looking for a controlled defaulting of the country, to finish off the economic conquest of the country by his peers, and make a basis for his future autocratic means.

I'm not that well informed, but my understanding from when Orban took over was that Hungary was basically Greece without the euro (thus not much reason for anyone to bend over backward for them). Ie, a trainwreck was coming regardless of how the government behaved. Unless I was wrong, a controlled defaulting is probably the best the country can do.

I think was plenty of time to correct things. The strategic problem is the chronic overspending, we finance our living via foreign credit.

That's what Orban had a chance to change (via his supermajority), but he didn't. After he took over he had all the excuse for austerity and welfare cuts because of the highly unpopulare predecessors he had in the Socialists. But now 2 years have passed. He will not cut spending until the next elections, just raise taxes, and beat our economy to the ground.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 25, 2012, 01:47:16 PM
Meh.

Earlier during the FIDESZ reign there was some talk of liberalizing the weapon law, so you would be more free to get a gun permit, and to defend your property with it.

Well, no, they are done changing that law now. Only change affecting the layman is that archaic weapons will be needing a permit, so much for buying a musket to feel safer at home!

Basically all of the easing concerns making the life of hunters easier regarding handling of their weapon, and guarding it.

I wonder if it is a coincidence that the vice-PM is a huge fan of hunting :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on April 25, 2012, 02:01:31 PM
I used to have a Hungarian Mosin-Nagant that was pretty much beaten to shit but still shot pretty accurately.  I think I had originally paid $35 for it :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 27, 2012, 01:22:15 PM
lol in Miskolc, the shittiest of our main cities, out in the north east, the mayor had to make an extra decree about forcing people to actually stick to the law when receiving their welfare money.

Because, you see, legally, you can get it at the post office, or you can have the mailman bring it to you.
But the gyp... I mean the welfare receivers have made a habit of ambushing the mailmen en masse, once one of them dared stepping out of the post office door, on welfare-money day.
So what you had, were scenes in front of the post office, were this horde of gyp... welfare receivers would sourround the mailman and yell at him until he managed to pay their due. Noise, abuse, and trickery were abundant.

So they now made this strictly verboten and assigned some policemen on mailman escort duty in the vicinity of the post offices.

edit: a report sez though that the mailmen are not enthusiastic about the change. With the mob around them, they could pay out most of the welfare in a grand swoop, now they have to go one-by-one. And they speculate that it was safer too, since nobody would attempt to rob them from the mob, since the rest would just beat the shit out of him/her right there, the money being theirs. Now they will have to navigate some pretty shady neighborhoods alone with big slums of cash.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on April 27, 2012, 01:37:33 PM
Wait, someone literally walks around with the money and distributes it?  :huh:
Why don't you use bank transfers?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 27, 2012, 02:20:35 PM
Quote from: Zanza on April 27, 2012, 01:37:33 PM
Wait, someone literally walks around with the money and distributes it?  :huh:
Why don't you use bank transfers?

Dude, a lot of these people never had a job in their life, and barely finished elementary school. They will not go and create bank accounts.

The government is working on having these welfare payments being sent to the electric cafeteria-benefit cards we employed people also use, altough needless to say it is meeting heavy resistance from bleeding hearts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on April 27, 2012, 07:16:00 PM
Didn't Orban build guns for the Turks in 1453? Dude must be like a thousand years old now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 10, 2012, 08:01:07 AM
Our National Tax Authority has put ITSELF on the public blacklist of people/companies with too much tax credits.

:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 17, 2012, 01:45:52 PM
Interesting. Orban suggested that state sponorship of political parties should stop from next year.

Right now they receive money based on the number of their seats in Parlaiment. It is 80-90% of their official income.

I of course support the idea, but one cannot miss the timing of this proposal: FIDESZ is everywhere, their sponsors and vassals in the economy control everything, or in full-fledged offensive to control everything, with legal support.

So of course FIDESZ doesn't need that state money anymore. They ARE the state. But they can eliminate the chances of the other parties for running an effective election campaign.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 23, 2012, 01:30:27 AM
Read an article in Der Spiegel which said that Hungarian students will now have to stay twice the length of their studies in Hungary after graduation. Despite paying tuition fees and youth unemployment of 25%. The consequence is apparently that the emigration doesn't happen after their studies but before...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on May 23, 2012, 01:32:01 AM
Hungary = failed state :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2012, 01:34:17 AM
Quote from: Zanza on May 23, 2012, 01:30:27 AM
Read an article in Der Spiegel which said that Hungarian students will now have to stay twice the length of their studies in Hungary after graduation. Despite paying tuition fees and youth unemployment of 25%.

That's for when their fees are paid by the state.

Still retarded. IMHO there should be
a) less state-funded places. there are only so many sociologists you need, not mention teachers in a shrinking population
b) concentrate the state funds on paying fees for the successful, hard working students. I can accept that state funding of higher education is an investment for society, especially for backwardish states like ours. What I can't accept is sponsoring the partying and loitering of layabouts.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2012, 01:15:39 PM
If they give 500 million forints to a private company as a grant, and that results in 25 new (allegedly high-skilled, mind you) jobs, doesn't that mean that you spent 20 million forints (more than 90k dollars I think) per new job? That means the ROI is like 20 years.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 08, 2012, 01:26:43 PM
which reminds me - these "national consultations" are ridicoulous. They are spending tons of money on sending out these questionaries, with such important, highly debated topics as "should the creation of new jobs be encouraged?" and the like. And there is the accompanying advertising campaign, with billboards, and the PM appearing on TV commercials to ask for your help in deciding on these important questions
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 11, 2012, 08:17:30 AM
There was some kind of annual event for attorneys.

The chief attorney, a long time friend of Orban, pointed out how he it was the first time that a reigning Prime Minister attended this event.

Orban said there is no more distance-holding between the government and the attorneys

:lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 03:27:42 AM
A new pension system proposal was put out to the public "for debate".

It would be some kind of point system, people would have their accounts where they accumulate "points" after their payments.

The interesting part is that, the plan sez, if you have no children when you retire, you will lose 38% of your points.
If you have one child, you lose 26%.
If you have 3, you gain a bonus of 15%.
If you have 4, you gain 24%
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 05:38:52 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 03:27:42 AM
A new pension system proposal was put out to the public "for debate".

It would be some kind of point system, people would have their accounts where they accumulate "points" after their payments.

The interesting part is that, the plan sez, if you have no children when you retire, you will lose 38% of your points.
If you have one child, you lose 26%.
If you have 3, you gain a bonus of 15%.
If you have 4, you gain 24%

LOL you guys are really fucked up.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 08:32:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 03:27:42 AM
A new pension system proposal was put out to the public "for debate".

It would be some kind of point system, people would have their accounts where they accumulate "points" after their payments.

The interesting part is that, the plan sez, if you have no children when you retire, you will lose 38% of your points.
If you have one child, you lose 26%.
If you have 3, you gain a bonus of 15%.
If you have 4, you gain 24%

Great idea, I'm sure a future Hungary populated by children their parents had for a few more percent on their pension will be awesome.

In the meantime, I need to come up with 3 more kids, anyone here willing to be adult adopted?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 08:41:31 AM
What I also like is how they are trying to sell this as the trigger for a new baby boom.

An "incentive" for middle class families to raise children.

It tells volumes about these guys that they identify "incentive" as "do it this way or you're gonna be punished!"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 08:57:25 AM
I understand France has some pretty serious bonuses for children - in particular for more than 2 children - and that it is showing success in maintaining a stable birth rate.

Europe is facing a pretty serious demographic problem with birth rates well below replacement.  A quick google shows that Hungary has an attrocious birth rate of 1.24 births per woman.

HUngary doesn't necessarily have to give bonuses on your pension, but on a quick glance you need to do *something*.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on June 12, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 09:49:24 AM
Quote from: Jacob on June 12, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

Well, yes.  But that costs money now, while putting it onto the pension system means passing the costs on down the road a few decades.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 09:58:36 AM
What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:03:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 09:49:24 AM
Quote from: Jacob on June 12, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

Well, yes.  But that costs money now, while putting it onto the pension system means passing the costs on down the road a few decades.

What about the discriminatory/penalizing effect it has on people who are unable to have children (e.g. because they are barren or gay)? As Jacob points out, it makes sense to help people with child rearing, rather than giving them arbitrary benefits or penalties when this no longer matters.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 09:58:36 AM
What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.

:huh:

It's pretty simple, really.  If you want your society to survive, if you want there to be services available to you in your old age, you have to have children roughly in proportion to the number of deaths per year.  You want someone to work in your nursing home and change your diapers when you're in your dotage Marty.

Well... there is one other option.  Canada has a pretty shitty fertility rate too, but we make up for it in immigration.  Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And I utterly fail to see the connection between high unemployment and fertility rates.  Babies aren't in the labout market.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 09:58:36 AM
What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.

:huh:

It's pretty simple, really.  If you want your society to survive, if you want there to be services available to you in your old age, you have to have children roughly in proportion to the number of deaths per year.  You want someone to work in your nursing home and change your diapers when you're in your dotage Marty.

Well... there is one other option.  Canada has a pretty shitty fertility rate too, but we make up for it in immigration.  Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And I utterly fail to see the connection between high unemployment and fertility rates.  Babies aren't in the labout market.

They will be in the labour market when they grow up. It's not like we need more people, which unemployment rates prove. If you want to reduce the argument to absurd levels, one working person can change diapers of 20 old people so it's not like you need to keep the replacement rates. Again, the whole "we need to keep the population growing to survive" is a false argument, that reeks of 19th century style nationalistic mentality.

Overpopulation is the problem, not "there isn't enough people".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:08:50 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:03:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 09:49:24 AM
Quote from: Jacob on June 12, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

Well, yes.  But that costs money now, while putting it onto the pension system means passing the costs on down the road a few decades.

What about the discriminatory/penalizing effect it has on people who are unable to have children (e.g. because they are barren or gay)? As Jacob points out, it makes sense to help people with child rearing, rather than giving them arbitrary benefits or penalties when this no longer matters.

I know plenty of gay parents. :huh:

And do you really want to have to prove to the government that you don't have kids because you're barren, and not out of deliberate choice?  Sounds overly complicated to me.

Adjustments to pension isn't completely unconnected with child-rearing.  If you're raising kids that is less money you'd be able to save for your retirement.

I don't want to go too far defending this.  Jacob's critique is entirely valid - immediate benefits would make a much bigger difference than pension adjustments that won't be felt for 30-40 years (and are at the whim of a change of government).  But providing benefits to parents is a completely defensible public policy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:10:20 AM
Besides, the idea about incentivising people to have children by some "rewards" is both immoral and deeply dysfunctional - because it works on exactly the wrong kind of people.

What you want is for people who want to have children but are afraid of this being too much strain on them to have children - such people will not be affected by a promise of better pension - they need help now, as Jacob points out.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And in the case of eastern/former communist europe, immigrants don't seem to have a desire to move their, either.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:13:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:08:50 AM
I know plenty of gay parents. :huh:
Sorry I can't adopt. I expect gay people in Hungary can't either.
QuoteAnd do you really want to have to prove to the government that you don't have kids because you're barren, and not out of deliberate choice?  Sounds overly complicated to me.
That's an idiotic argument and it makes me so mad you would say something like that. So it is fine to discriminate against people based on some characteristic because it would be awkward for people to prove that characteristic? That's unbelievably stupid.
Quote
Adjustments to pension isn't completely unconnected with child-rearing.  If you're raising kids that is less money you'd be able to save for your retirement.
Not true. State pension system collects a percentage of your income. The percentage is the same whether you have kids or not.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:16:11 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And in the case of eastern/former communist europe, immigrants don't seem to have a desire to move their, either.

Again, noone is really putting forward any convincing argument why having the population to decrease is such a bad thing. This is ultimately a sort of xenophobic/jingoistic argument that we can't allow the population gap against some other nation that will overrun us. This is 19th century thinking. The end result is global population constantly growing to the breaking point.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:16:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 09:58:36 AM
What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.

:huh:

It's pretty simple, really.  If you want your society to survive, if you want there to be services available to you in your old age, you have to have children roughly in proportion to the number of deaths per year.  You want someone to work in your nursing home and change your diapers when you're in your dotage Marty.

Well... there is one other option.  Canada has a pretty shitty fertility rate too, but we make up for it in immigration.  Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And I utterly fail to see the connection between high unemployment and fertility rates.  Babies aren't in the labout market.

They will be in the labour market when they grow up. It's not like we need more people, which unemployment rates prove. If you want to reduce the argument to absurd levels, one working person can change diapers of 20 old people so it's not like you need to keep the replacement rates. Again, the whole "we need to keep the population growing to survive" is a false argument, that reeks of 19th century style nationalistic mentality.

Overpopulation is the problem, not "there isn't enough people".

Unemployment is a fairly short-term problem.  It goes up and down year by year.  Four years ago you didn't have an unemployment problem, and four years from now you may not have it again.  It's incredibly short-cited to look at such a short-term issue when compared to a long-term issue like demographics and fertility.

I'm not saying you want a growing population, and I'm not saying you need to ensure a particular "race" survives, but you do need a fairly stable population.

Do some google-fu on Japan and it's demographics.  It has one of the world's lowest fertility rates, and of course is almost completely closed to any immigration.  The general consensus is that Japan is completely fucked in the long term.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:18:21 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:16:53 AM
Do some google-fu on Japan and it's demographics.  It has one of the world's lowest fertility rates, and of course is almost completely closed to any immigration.  The general consensus is that Japan is completely fucked in the long term.

In the long term, the life on Earth will be extinct. Long term demographic planning has never worked in the past - there are too many variables. And in any event, when it comes to long term predictions, overpopulation and a Malthusian catastrophe is more likely (and more worrying) than there won't be enough Hungarians to wipe old Tamas's ass. If anything, we should find a way to reduce population globally.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:19:44 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And in the case of eastern/former communist europe, immigrants don't seem to have a desire to move their, either.

I doubt that very much.  If, say, Hungary opened its doors to immigrants from the Phillipines or Bangladesh or Pakistan (and not to mention places like Somalia) they'd have as many immigrants as they would want.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:13:10 AM
Not true. State pension system collects a percentage of your income. The percentage is the same whether you have kids or not.

Marty, while I don't think the policy is a good idea, you seem to be overlooking how these programs work (assuming they Poland and Hungary are similar to how it is in most of the world). Your pension payments go to support current pensioners. They aren't in a bank account that you will draw on when you retire.

When you are a pensioner your payments will be received from then current workers. If there aren't many current workers, your generation won't have much of a pension. There is a logic in tying your pension payments to your contribution to the next generation that is paying for them. One of the reasons given for the falling birth rate in the west--which is a real problem for pension schemes--is that previously people wanted large families to support them in retirement, but now the government fills that role of support. This would reestablish that link.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:23:32 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:19:44 AM

I doubt that very much.  If, say, Hungary opened its doors to immigrants from the Phillipines or Bangladesh or Pakistan (and not to mention places like Somalia) they'd have as many immigrants as they would want.

In a schengen world I don't know if they could get away with that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:23:54 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 12, 2012, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:13:10 AM
Not true. State pension system collects a percentage of your income. The percentage is the same whether you have kids or not.

Marty, while I don't think the policy is a good idea, you seem to be overlooking how these programs work (assuming they Poland and Hungary are similar to how it is in most of the world). Your pension payments go to support current pensioners. They aren't in a bank account that you will draw on when you retire.

When you are a pensioner your payments will be received from then current workers. If there aren't many current workers, your generation won't have much of a pension. There is a logic in tying your pension payments to your contribution to the next generation that is paying for them. One of the reasons given for the falling birth rate in the west--which is a real problem for pension schemes--is that previously people wanted large families to support them in retirement, but now the government fills that role of support. This would reestablish that link.

That's not entirely true, at least in Poland (you have both elements). But that means that a person who pays the pension now and has no kids pays a greater rate already than someone who receives discounts and benefits from the state - so that evens out in the end, presumedly.

Not to mention, linking this to simply a number of babies coming out of someone's uterus (as opposed to e.g. raising a child to adulthood) is entirely moronic.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:29:22 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:13:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:08:50 AM
I know plenty of gay parents. :huh:
Sorry I can't adopt. I expect gay people in Hungary can't either.
QuoteAnd do you really want to have to prove to the government that you don't have kids because you're barren, and not out of deliberate choice?  Sounds overly complicated to me.
That's an idiotic argument and it makes me so mad you would say something like that. So it is fine to discriminate against people based on some characteristic because it would be awkward for people to prove that characteristic? That's unbelievably stupid.

Most of the gay parents I know had kids the old-fashioned way.  In your case Marty all you need is to rent a womb for 9 months and a turkey baster.   :P

And it is common sense to base public policy over what can be easily measured.  We don't tax you based on what you could have earned, but what you actually earned, because what you could have earned would be incredibly difficult to prove.

I'll try again Marty - google "demographic decline" or the slightly more hysterical "demographic decline".  Russia, eastern europe and Japan are all in for a heap of trouble in the coming decades.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:31:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:23:54 AM
Not to mention, linking this to simply a number of babies coming out of someone's uterus (as opposed to e.g. raising a child to adulthood) is entirely moronic.

If the actual policy was this I would agree with you.  I imagine though it is tied to raising children, not merely being a biological parent.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on June 12, 2012, 10:45:53 AM
New immigrants to Hungary would probably move swiftly on to greener pastures elsewhere within the EU.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:29:22 AMMost of the gay parents I know had kids the old-fashioned way.  In your case Marty all you need is to rent a womb for 9 months and a turkey baster.   :P

My partner would not have any legal rights to the child in case something happened to me. And btw, I knew you were not exactly romantic, but I pity your attitude to child rearing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 10:51:38 AM
I have been saying for a while now: want more children, from parents who can actually feed and raise them on their own? Offer tax breaks after children. Not a fix monthly sum like we do, running a breeding program in the lowest strata, because their shitty lifestyle actually benefits from this (they can keep the child in shitty conditions and get by on the grants).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:29:22 AMMost of the gay parents I know had kids the old-fashioned way.  In your case Marty all you need is to rent a womb for 9 months and a turkey baster.   :P

My partner would not have any legal rights to the child in case something happened to me. And btw, I knew you were not exactly romantic, but I pity your attitude to child rearing.

:huh:

What do you know about my attitude to child rearing?  I love my kid, eagerly await my second, and wish more people could experience that feeling.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 12, 2012, 10:45:53 AM
New immigrants to Hungary would probably move swiftly on to greener pastures elsewhere within the EU.

That probably is a problem.  I know it's an issue in Canada - areas like the east coast would like to attract more immigrants, but they all tend to get pulled into Toronto / Vancouver / Alberta.

As a total aside I was reviewing an impaired driving charge the other day.  The accused knew very little english, and asked to be read his rights in punjabi.  Well this being Edmonton in 2012...

... it was no problem, because the cop's partner who was with him also spoke punjabi. 

Back to the topic at hand: It's a problem, but there are measures that could be taken to combat it.  Quebec has been quite pro-active at inviting immigrants specifically to live in Quebec and learn French and with some success.  Make their residency contingent on residing in Hungary and/or taking Hungarian lessons.  Once they get citizenship some may ultimately leave, but some will stay.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 12, 2012, 11:06:15 AM
I support policies that help parents - though not to do with pensions but to do with costs of child care and the extra costs of having a kid.  If the population's not stable then growth will decline and more and more of our money will go on old people.  It's not a good thing for society.  I also like immigration for the same reason.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:08:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 12, 2012, 10:51:38 AM
I have been saying for a while now: want more children, from parents who can actually feed and raise them on their own? Offer tax breaks after children. Not a fix monthly sum like we do, running a breeding program in the lowest strata, because their shitty lifestyle actually benefits from this (they can keep the child in shitty conditions and get by on the grants).

I'm not sure that's quite right.

It's been a common complaint for the last 100+ years that we need "the right people" to have more kids.  But I think demographics and social scientists have shown that what's important is to have enough children being born period.  Yes some may stay mired in poverty, but many will climb the socio-economic ladder as well.

I have no problem with tax breaks to have more kids.  But you have to make sure that such a policy actually works to raise birth rates.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 12, 2012, 11:06:15 AM
I support policies that help parents - though not to do with pensions but to do with costs of child care and the extra costs of having a kid.  If the population's not stable then growth will decline and more and more of our money will go on old people.  It's not a good thing for society.  I also like immigration for the same reason.

It's not that growth will decline.  It's that growth will stop.  Economies with a shrinking population will be in a permanent recession.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on June 12, 2012, 11:27:35 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:09:49 AM
It's not that growth will decline.  It's that growth will stop.  Economies with a shrinking population will be in a permanent recession.
True enough.  It's a long-term problem in much of Europe.  Not those areas (like France and UK) where they like people having children and have immigration though :w00t:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 12, 2012, 11:40:30 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:09:49 AMIt's not that growth will decline.  It's that growth will stop.  Economies with a shrinking population will be in a permanent recession.
Not necessarily. Population decline can be overcompensated by productivity growth.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:44:58 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 12, 2012, 11:40:30 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:09:49 AMIt's not that growth will decline.  It's that growth will stop.  Economies with a shrinking population will be in a permanent recession.
Not necessarily. Population decline can be overcompensated by productivity growth.

Potentially.  But that means the population decline had better be pretty gradual.  If you start getting into a -4% population growth it's going to be pretty hard for a developed country to compensate for that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on June 12, 2012, 12:04:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 10:29:22 AMMost of the gay parents I know had kids the old-fashioned way.  In your case Marty all you need is to rent a womb for 9 months and a turkey baster.   :P
My partner would not have any legal rights to the child in case something happened to me. And btw, I knew you were not exactly romantic, but I pity your attitude to child rearing.
Partner?  Why would one of your rentboys want to be saddled with a child?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 13, 2012, 02:09:23 AM
During the last couple of weeks, multiple holocaust memorials have been vandalized, the jewish cemetary in the city I work at damaged, the chief rabbi (whatever his official title may be) insulted on the streets of Budapest in broad daylight, and yesterday a 70 years old jewish guy was beaten for being a dirty jew, close to the synagogue
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 13, 2012, 02:44:40 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:44:58 AM
Potentially.  But that means the population decline had better be pretty gradual.  If you start getting into a -4% population growth it's going to be pretty hard for a developed country to compensate for that.
-4% population growth is Poland from 1939-1944. I would agree that's not sustainable, but then most countries are not the victims of genocidial total war.

Germany's population declined by 0.1-0.2% annually in the last decade, yet per capita GDP and total GDP went up.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 13, 2012, 09:00:54 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 13, 2012, 02:44:40 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2012, 11:44:58 AM
Potentially.  But that means the population decline had better be pretty gradual.  If you start getting into a -4% population growth it's going to be pretty hard for a developed country to compensate for that.
-4% population growth is Poland from 1939-1944. I would agree that's not sustainable, but then most countries are not the victims of genocidial total war.

Germany's population declined by 0.1-0.2% annually in the last decade, yet per capita GDP and total GDP went up.

As pointed out Germany is one of those countries that is compensating by immigration.

Check out some of the projections for places like Japan.  They've only just tipped in the last few years into population decline, but it's set to increase rapidly over the next few decades.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 13, 2012, 10:24:17 AM
4% population decline would mean that Japan would lose about 110 million of its current 128 million population over the next fifty years. I can't think of any serious predictions claiming that.

From predictions I can find, their annual population decline will be less than 1%. Which might be compensated through productivity growth when you consider that Japan had a productivity growth rate of something like 1.5-2% over the last decades.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on June 13, 2012, 10:39:01 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 13, 2012, 10:24:17 AM
4% population decline would mean that Japan would lose about 110 million of its current 128 million population over the next fifty years. I can't think of any serious predictions claiming that.

From predictions I can find, their annual population decline will be less than 1%. Which might be compensated through productivity growth when you consider that Japan had a productivity growth rate of something like 1.5-2% over the last decades.

Not going to spend too much time on it, but the first credible link I could find:

QuoteBut by far our most serious problem is a declining and aging population. Given present trends, total population will likely decline from around 130 million to under 90 million in 50 years or so. By that same time, 40 percent of Japanese could be over 65.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/opinion/02tamamoto.html?_r=2&em

and

QuoteOn U.N. calculations, the 2010 population of 127 million will shrink by a fifth, to 101.6 million in 2050. Moreover, the decline speeds up over time, with the population dropping by 6.65% between 2015 and 2030, but plummeting a whopping 13.4% from 2030 to 2050-far and away the worst growth projection in the world. Consider that Pakistan is expected to nearly double its population, to 335 million, in the same period.

http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2012/01/19/japans_coming_demographic_crisis_99850.html

So no, not anywhere near a 4% annual decline.  Less than 1% annually in fact.

But it's pretty darn hard to increase productivity in a fully industrialized nation at rates greater than 1% per year.  And the total population figures mask the more serious problem that the % of the total population that is working is also going down.  Not only are populations getting smaller, but the proportion of that population that is actually productive is decreasing.

Not sure where you are getting the 1.5-2% figure for Japan.  Japan of course had tremendous productivity increases from 1945-1990 or so - because it was industrializing and developing.  Since then it's been fairly stagnant.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on June 13, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
Gypsies kidnapped a baby from a norwegian hospital last week. This is the right thread for this right? The mother was a Gypsie so the response was the label the journalist a racist for peddling in stereotyping of Gypsies. The kid was a Gypsie as well so it didn't matter that it was kidnapped.

sigh...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 13, 2012, 11:12:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 13, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
Gypsies kidnapped a baby from a norwegian hospital last week. This is the right thread for this right? The mother was a Gypsie so the response was the label the journalist a racist for peddling in stereotyping of Gypsies. The kid was a Gypsie as well so it didn't matter that it was kidnapped.

sigh...

Screw you dude. ROMAnians have more gypos. Probably Bulgarians as well :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 14, 2012, 01:27:34 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 13, 2012, 10:39:01 AMNot sure where you are getting the 1.5-2% figure for Japan.  Japan of course had tremendous productivity increases from 1945-1990 or so - because it was industrializing and developing.  Since then it's been fairly stagnant.
OECD puts multi-factor productivity growth at 1.5% for 1985-2010, at 0.8% for 2000-2010 and at 1.6% for 2001-2007.

Labor productivity growth was even higher for most years.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 02:12:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 13, 2012, 11:12:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 13, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
Gypsies kidnapped a baby from a norwegian hospital last week. This is the right thread for this right? The mother was a Gypsie so the response was the label the journalist a racist for peddling in stereotyping of Gypsies. The kid was a Gypsie as well so it didn't matter that it was kidnapped.

sigh...

Screw you dude. ROMAnians have more gypos. Probably Bulgarians as well :P

:lmfao: Rom means "man" in their language, since it comes from the well-know indo-european word "Ram" (see Ramayana). A patriarchal society filled with gypsies just got used with naming themselves "romani" and obtained official recognition for this. We name them "tigani", as some of our latin counterparts.

Now, using your line of thought, all Romanians should be proud that the byzantines called their state "Romania". Or better yet, we should accuse the medieval greeks that they were all gypsies, dressed as civilized people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Threviel on June 14, 2012, 03:29:53 AM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 02:12:41 AM
Or better yet, we should accuse the medieval greeks that they were all gypsies, dressed as civilized people.

So you claim that they were romanians?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on June 14, 2012, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 13, 2012, 11:12:31 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 13, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
Gypsies kidnapped a baby from a norwegian hospital last week. This is the right thread for this right? The mother was a Gypsie so the response was the label the journalist a racist for peddling in stereotyping of Gypsies. The kid was a Gypsie as well so it didn't matter that it was kidnapped.

sigh...

Screw you dude. ROMAnians have more gypos. Probably Bulgarians as well :P

Pre-Trianon Hungary had all the Gyppos. No worry in the HiS game I'll be liberating the Gyppos from their Hungarian Overlords.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: Threviel on June 14, 2012, 03:29:53 AM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 02:12:41 AM
Or better yet, we should accuse the medieval greeks that they were all gypsies, dressed as civilized people.

So you claim that they were romanians?

No, I'm claiming that the name taken by a certain population means shit when we discuss heritage or ethnical/civilizational ethos. Gypsies call themselves Romani but this has nothing to do with Rome, Romans or Romanians. Likewise we have a Romanian state that has nothing in common with Romania, the medieval entity.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on June 14, 2012, 01:34:29 PM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: Threviel on June 14, 2012, 03:29:53 AM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 02:12:41 AM
Or better yet, we should accuse the medieval greeks that they were all gypsies, dressed as civilized people.

So you claim that they were romanians?

No, I'm claiming that the name taken by a certain population means shit when we discuss heritage or ethnical/civilizational ethos. Gypsies call themselves Romani but this has nothing to do with Rome, Romans or Romanians. Likewise we have a Romanian state that has nothing in common with Romania, the medieval entity.

If it makes you feel better, in slang Polish, "Rumun" ("a Romanian") means a homeless beggar. There are many racist jokes about Romanians being homeless, dirty, smelly and beggars.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 01:47:45 PM
Quotebeing homeless, dirty, smelly and beggars

Aren't those the main traits of your potential dates?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: HVC on June 14, 2012, 01:48:55 PM
Really? As a pole I don't think you what to start a "what the name for your *nationals mean in my country" arguement lol


* there has to be a more accurate term for that, but it escapes me
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: ulmont on June 14, 2012, 01:53:38 PM
Quote from: HVC on June 14, 2012, 01:48:55 PM
Really? As a pole I don't think you what to start a "what the name for your *nationals mean in my country" arguement lol


* there has to be a more accurate term for that, but it escapes me

Demonym.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on June 14, 2012, 03:36:34 PM
Quote from: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 01:47:45 PM
Quotebeing homeless, dirty, smelly and beggars

Aren't those the main traits of your potential dates?

Marti generally pays for men who are fairly cute.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Alexandru H. on June 14, 2012, 03:42:50 PM
One doesn't rule out the other.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 19, 2012, 03:43:20 AM
I think we will be the first democracy where you can get a year in prison for dissing the Holy Crown.

there is a big modification in works for criminal law, and Jobbik's proposal to raise the Holy Crown among the national symbols (along with the flag and the anthem) which you can't demeaner (sp?) without going to jail.

I am not sure what the current ruling is on that. The whole thing looks silly, if we have freedom of speech, why can't I insult our depressive and overly melodramatic anthem, for example?

But a more practical planned change is increased rights for self-defense. Right now you must keep proportionality in mind, so even if there is a huge-ass guy coming against you with his head-sized fists to plummet you to the ground, you can't grab a club to bludgeon him with it, without risking prison. From mid- next year however, you cannot be punished if the court declares the act to be self-defense, proportionate or not.
This also goes for armed intruders on your property - which I like, since if you are awaken by some thugs going through your stuff, you really have no time to decide if they have knives for cutting bread, or your throat.

Then again, there are no rules of easing the weapon-permit laws, so the practical benefits of these new property-defense laws are rather moot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on June 19, 2012, 11:30:37 AM
 :lol:

So you decry the slow turn towards Fascism, the corrupt cash grabs, the hollowing out of the rule of law, the obvious attempts to exert control over previously independent institutions, and the blind eye turned towards the excesses of thuggish government aligned cadres and nationalist activists?

But a plan to allow the use of extreme violence to defend yourself is a good development? You don't think it's going to be used to charge the victim of an organized street beating with assault, because the Jobbik aligned thugs were only "defending themselves"?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: citizen k on June 19, 2012, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2012, 11:30:37 AMYou don't think it's going to be used to charge the victim of an organized street beating with assault, because the Jobbik aligned thugs were only "defending themselves"?

I'm sure he's not naive, just principled. Wouldn't be the first time that well intentioned laws have bad consequences.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 16, 2012, 11:31:26 PM
So, according to ORF, the Simon Wiesenthal Center informed the Hungarian authorities last year that a wanted war criminal (tried and found guilty in Czechoslovakia in 1948) called Csatary lives in Budapest. The Hungarian system drags its feet, so the SWC gets The Sun involved who film and photograph the guy and make a story about him. The Hungarian system keeps stalling, pointing out they're investigating against "unknown" and can't confirm or deny the identity of the guy in the article. Also, the supposed crimes (deportation of 16000 jews in Kosice) happened soooo long ago in a place that's not part of Hungary today.

Csatary is 97 and lives in Budapest under his real name.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/9404010/Pressure-on-Hungary-to-prosecute-Nazi-war-criminal-Laszlo-Csatary.html

QuoteThe French foreign ministry has joined Nazi hunters and Jewish community groups to call on prosecutors in Hungary to arrest Laszlo Csatary, 97, for his role in organising the deportation of 15,700 Jews to their deaths in Auschwitz.

"We believe that Nazi criminals, wherever they are, must answer for their acts before justice," said a spokesman for the French foreign ministry.

Csatary, who tops the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's most-wanted list of the Nazi war criminals, was last weekend discovered living peacefully in Budapest under his own name.

He had left Canada when he was unmasked by war crimes investigators in 1995.

Csatary fled Europe at the end of the war after being sentenced to death "in absentia" in 1948 by a Czechoslovakian court for crimes committed while he was police chief from 1941 in the Slovakian city of Kosice, then part of Hungary.

While in the town, known as Kassa in Hungarian and Kaschau in German, he was renowned for his brutality, beating women with a whip he carried on his belt and forcing them to dig holes with their bare hands.

During the war, he organised deportations of thousands of Jews to death camps in Nazi occupied Eastern Europe and is accused of complicity in the killing of at least 16,000 people.

Csatary has officially been under investigation by the Hungarian authorities since 11 September 2011 and is locally reported as having been under police surveillance since April.

Sources told The Daily Telegraph that the investigation is taking a long time because the crimes "took place 68 years ago in an area that now falls under the jurisdiction of another country".

But Nazi hunters have expressed frustration at delays.

"This man is healthy and he drives his own car," said Efraim Zuroff, director of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Jerusalem.

"Nothing has happened and I am very frustrated. At Csatary's age health can deteriorate from one day to another. We must act quickly. The passage of time does not diminish his guilt and old age should not provide protection for the perpetrators of the Holocaust."

Jewish students protested last night on "Gyori ut", the smart Budapest street where Csatary lives, demanding his immediate arrest.

"We are proud to do our part in bringing the world's attention to this evil man and his horrific crimes," said Andi Gergely, the president of the European Union of Jewish Students.

A Hungarian spokesman yesterday said: "The government has always supported the exhaustive exploration of past crimes and the prosecution of perpetrators."
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 17, 2012, 01:58:31 AM
regarding the self-protect law: the plan was to allow excess force to defend yourself when alone against multiple attackers, not the other way around :P

Anyways, the government, once again, retreated from the prospect of having non-sheep citizens and did not change the law. So still you have no legal way to defend yourself, unless you happen to be a better hand-to-hand fighter than your attacker(s) AND you manage to beat them in a measured way, in accordance with their intended level of attack. If not, you are in trouble.

For Csatary, I am not sure on the level of official stalling, but I can imagine they do that. He instantly became a martyr of the far-right of course. "poor 97 years old man, let him die in peace!" well, he didnt let those jews alone, did he? As someone pointed out in a blog comment somewhere: funny how the radicals hurry to point out personal rights, and call for peaceful forgettance of sins, whenever it suits them.

However, I am not sure I like to have a big international deal made out of the whole stalling business. I mean, just recently, the Irish high court denied the extradiction of an Irish scumbag who killed two Hungarian children with his car while in the country, and fled back home from the sentence. If EU law is fine with that, they should be fine with whatever shady stalling the Hungarians do as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 03:07:34 AM
Orban said on a meeting with the leaders of the commerce and industry association, that he wants a new business model for utility services, switching them to a "non-profit" model.

He said no details of course. Just their usual way of dropping a bomb and then refusing to detail it. Probably because they have no detailed idea about it, just want to see how people react.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 18, 2012, 03:32:31 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 17, 2012, 01:58:31 AMHowever, I am not sure I like to have a big international deal made out of the whole stalling business. I mean, just recently, the Irish high court denied the extradiction of an Irish scumbag who killed two Hungarian children with his car while in the country, and fled back home from the sentence. If EU law is fine with that, they should be fine with whatever shady stalling the Hungarians do as well.

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 03:40:40 AM
well two more things about that

1) I am still pissed that we can jail the Irish motherfucker who thought they can speed around the roads here with impunity, and was proven right by his country and the EU.

2) I have red after this Csatary guy and boy was he a cruel bastard. I only followed this case vaguely, based on mainstream news reporting. They fail to emphasize the cruel bastard part.
Fucking scum, worthy of harrassment even at 97.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 18, 2012, 06:08:07 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 03:40:40 AM
1) I am still pissed that we can jail the Irish motherfucker who thought they can speed around the roads here with impunity, and was proven right by his country and the EU.

English, motherfucker, do you speak it?

Also, do you know that he has not been prosecuted in Ireland?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 18, 2012, 08:55:34 AM
The Irish guy killed two girls by driving dangerously. He went back to Ireland and was prosecuted and sentenced in absentia. The Hungarians applied for an EAW to make him swerve his sentence. Under Irish law he needed to have 'fled' and the court decided he hadn't (he'd cooperated throughout etc). This causes a scandal in Ireland and it was argued they'd misinterpreted EU law when implementing the EAW system. So the Dail changed the law and the Hungarians re-applied.

The High Court said he could be deported, the Supreme Court said he couldn't having successfully defended himself the old time. The state couldn't just change the law until they get the right answer.

Sad case, but based on what I've read the Supreme Court seems right.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 09:08:00 AM
they weren't "right". He didn't defend himself successfully where it matters, ie. in Hungary. The decision made in Ireland was a mere administrative technicality compared to that.
They just wanted to save an Irishman from Hungarian prison.

[Martinus]I hope he hits and kills a couple of irish children as well[/Martinus]
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 18, 2012, 09:16:47 AM
He defended himself from extradition under Irish law. For me the decision seems right from a rule of law perspective, even if it's unsatisfactory in this case. I think you're a bit paranoid on the motives. My understanding is that the Irish state supported the Hungarian case both times, they changed the law and the High Court agreed with them. I don't think there's much more they could do short of ignoring their highest court.

Extradition isn't just an administrative technicality either.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2012, 09:21:02 AM
meh
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on July 18, 2012, 09:44:57 AM
You just got student-lawyered.

Next time, don't hold a trial in absentia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 24, 2012, 12:12:21 PM
Despite all the  ho-hum about civil rights, you can't really hear loud opposition from inside the country, unless something is directly, clearly affecting people's pockets.

So we have the situation where the only real opposition against the regime is where they are doing the only positive thing about their reign: half-assed attempts at cutting the unbearable running costs of the state.
Funnily enough, these also happen to be the only things where they are willing to let go and do back their shit. Unless it is needed to channel money to the sponsors of the party, of course.

One of these things is education. Their attempts to cut back the number of state-sponsored places in higher education to a maintainable level have been met with much upheaval. It didn't help that their main education man (well, woman) is a lunatic.
Will they reverse course? Not sure. Orban met with youth organizations, and said that the government could properly explain the aim of the reform (true), and that... get this... he is seeing COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY tendencies in the opposition of the education reform.

Enough communist shit for a week? Ha! Let me give you: the watermelon cartell

Cartells are illegal of course. Except when the government does it.

We grow a shitload of watermelons. About half of it is exported. But we also get a lot of even cheaper imports.
The market was pricing the consumer price of a kilogram of watermleon to about 69 forints.

Then out of the blue steps in the agriculture ministry, announcing that they have
a) stopped the evöl import of watermelons by asking the distributors to not import
b) agreed to have a set minimal price of 99 forints per kilogram for watermelons. When sold to the customer, not when bought from the farmers

this is of course SAVING  TEH FARMERS. They didn't bother explaining, how a 99 forints final price is stopping the middlemen from buying the watermelon from the farmers at the 30-40 forints they usually do, or how it is stopping shops to import 29 forint-worth watermelons from Serbia and Romania.

Not only they are doing price-fixing imbecile communist shit, they are doing it wrong.

It appears that next to be saved is milk production.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 24, 2012, 03:52:14 PM
lol remember that Jobbik Euro-MP who turned out to be jewish on the mother side? (ie. proper jew :P )
A leading Jobbik MP (who managed to make his wife also an MP, and runs the party newspaper called Barricade) now called for his resignation since "it is clear he lied when he said he wasn't aware of his jewish ancestry until late last year".

This is a brilliant incident for Jobbik. I love it.
They had the option to NOT quick him out,and alienate the nazis, ie. 90% of their voters. Or kick him out, like they seem to be doing now, and unveil just how viciously racist they are ("oh, so you have been a major member of our organization, won us an EU seat and ran shit for us, but it turns out your mother was a jew? Get out!")

Of course, like with any group which suddenly finds itself having control over wealth and resources, there have been reports of power struggles (the fall of the jewish one was apparently part of the strugle to control their organization in eastern hungary), so this call for resignation by Elod Novak may be part of his bid for party presidency.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on July 24, 2012, 04:03:59 PM
Who will parking-lot this horrible place?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 24, 2012, 04:11:17 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 24, 2012, 04:03:59 PM
Who will parking-lot this horrible place?

There is just a select group of people who needs to be parking-lotted. The rest are salvagable.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on July 24, 2012, 04:19:01 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2012, 09:44:57 AM
You just got student-lawyered.

Next time, don't hold a trial in absentia.

Based on my reading that wasn't the problem, it was that he didn't "flee."

Though it does seem that if the Hungarians had hired a smarter Mick lawyer he would have pointed out that he fled like a motherfucker from the scene of the crime.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 25, 2012, 06:26:46 AM
 :lmfao:

what time travel. I saw such stuff in the news archives from the 50s and 60s: the minister of agriculture and other dignities visit the cow who yielded the most milk last year:

http://akadalymentes.kormany.hu/hu/videkfejlesztesi-miniszterium/hirek/a-kormany-mar-oktoberben-megkezdi-a-kulonleges-tejtamogatasok-kifizeteset
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 26, 2012, 02:14:32 PM
Orban was talking to a bunch of businessmen.

One of his main sponsors lashed out against his performance, actually, which was somewhat surprising, but I did read speculations that he was losing in the battle of influence between the big guys.

Anyways, Orban said a few things, which I am still researching, because I cannot believe how the opposition press isn't making a huge-ass deal about if true. It's a weird mix of honest and 50s propaganda.

Like, how we must fight to keep up the pace with the other east euros, because if not we will "sink with the declining West".

But the prime part was his surprising philosophical tantrum about Hungary and it's people, as part of his take on cooperation:
Cooperation is key, but "co-operation is not a matter of willingness, it is a matter of strength. There may be countries where this works otherwise, like in Scandinavia, but a half-asian people like us can only work together if there is strength This doesn't rule out discussion and democracy, but a centralized cooperation is necessary".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on July 26, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
Learn to ride and shoot the bow Tamas, that way there will be a place for you in the new Hungary  :cool:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 26, 2012, 02:41:24 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 26, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
Learn to ride and shoot the bow Tamas, that way there will be a place for you in the new Hungary  :cool:

I think so too  :cool:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 27, 2012, 01:57:00 AM
and that comment (which, if you think about it, implied in no indirect manner that Hungarians are inferior to some other european nations and thus incapable of proper democracy, told by the PM) seems to be ignored by the press, AND opposition parties.
So far at least.

This is actually kind of worrying because it supplement the thought growing in my head, that the media and the opposition IS afraid of Orban, for real. They are going through the motions hoping for a miracle in 2014, but they are not willing to take the gloves down and fight for real.

I mean, when the "iconic" arch-evil Socialist PM, Gyurcsany, made a comment half as stupid as this one, it was made to be a meme by FIDESZ immediately.

eg. about 5 years ago a couple of billionaires (FIDESZ sponsors) whined about taxes, and threatened that they will move to their business to Slovakia because of the tax burden here. Gyurcsany said "do you want to go? fine! you  can go. You can leave!". In a matter of day, "you can leave!" had been made into a comment directed at the People of Hungary by FIDESZ, and it is regularly quoted to indicate what an enemy of it's own people Gyurcsany is.

And you see this comment by Orban, which is a rare glimpse into  what demeaning opinion he has of his own supporters (I share his opinion, but that's not the point), and there is... silence.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 27, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
I was going to say it sounded a bit like you about Hungary :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 28, 2012, 02:01:16 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 27, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
I was going to say it sounded a bit like you about Hungary :lol:


:lol:

yeah, no doubt I would end up as a Hungarian Pinochet if given a 2/3rd majority here. However, Orban's only relentless ambition is to stay in power. He has no identifiable vision for how the country should look like, except that it is made out of his 10 million peasants, and that if the rhetorics of Horthy and Kadar worked for 60 years, they will serve him good enough as well.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 28, 2012, 02:03:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 28, 2012, 02:01:16 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 27, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
I was going to say it sounded a bit like you about Hungary :lol:


:lol:

yeah, no doubt I would end up as a Hungarian Pinochet if given a 2/3rd majority here. However, Orban's only relentless ambition is to stay in power. He has no identifiable vision for how the country should look like, except that it is made out of his 10 million peasants, and that if the rhetorics of Horthy and Kadar worked for 60 years, they will serve him good enough as well.

Sounds like Tusk's government, only that Tusk is smarter, so he knows he will not win if he fucks with the financial markets.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 28, 2012, 02:16:00 AM
you liked Tusk before  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 29, 2012, 02:38:29 AM
I don't much anymore. Unlike more parochial PiS, he is fortunately more pro-European but his government is quite illiberal. It has the highest record in history of the secret services asking for phone records of private individuals (apparently several thousand a day), notoriously blocks public access to government info and has just passed law curtailing freedom of assembly. It is not very ideological but there is this slight Putinesque whiff.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 29, 2012, 02:40:10 AM
Btw, as I can't due to being on my iPad - could someone repost this week's The Economist's article on Hungary? I did not realize this is as bad there when it comes to antisemitism. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2012, 03:11:49 AM
It has an article? Will check it out.

And define "bad". It is Eastern Europe. Both the Eastern and the Europe part comes with a certain level of mandatory jew-hating.

Also, :nelson: at Poland also failing in building a modern country. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on July 29, 2012, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 29, 2012, 03:11:49 AM
It has an article? Will check it out.

And define "bad". It is Eastern Europe. Both the Eastern and the Europe part comes with a certain level of mandatory jew-hating.

Also, :nelson: at Poland also failing in building a modern country. :P

Well, stuff like websites publishing home addresses of Jewish students who protested against the nazi criminal, so they can be harassed; a MP on the floor of the parliament making speech with the blood libel references; someone leaving pig's offal on the statue of the Swedish guy who helped a lot of Jewish people escape during WW2; a Jobbik politician being kicked out of the party when it was found he had Jewish ancestry; and swastikas being painted on synagogues.

Trust me when I say that while anti-semitism may be happening in Poland and the rest of the region, this shit is bad and not on par with what's happening in Poland at least.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2012, 04:10:58 AM
ah right, I covered the Jobbik guy's story here. It is net positive because it clearly unveils the extent of  Jobbik's rampant racism.

And yes, "kurucinfo", the nazi website regularly posts addresses and phone numbers of people who are Enemies of The People. The website itself, however, fled to a US-based server years ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: MadImmortalMan on August 10, 2012, 10:03:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cey35bBWXls
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 10, 2012, 10:35:20 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 10, 2012, 10:03:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cey35bBWXls

You might be a dumb redneck bimbo if . . .


Liked his mysogynist comments, though. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2012, 02:50:50 AM
There have been some moves against the well-known organized crime figures recently. Some of them at least. All of them rose to power in the early 90s, when our present Minister of Interior, ex-police officer, also had some shady business connections.

It was alleged that testimonies of these figures led to the arrest of several high-ranked police officers. Others said it is one branch of organized crime, the one in bed with the present minister, moving to eliminate the other.

I am not sure what to make of that. But I gotta' tell you, the sudden and swift DISBANDING of the ENTIRE organized crime division looks suspicious.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2012, 03:03:36 AM
I'm unclear about your post. Are you talking about moves being taken against mafia or mafia-fighting police units?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2012, 03:04:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 13, 2012, 03:03:36 AM
I'm unclear about your post. Are you talking about moves being taken against mafia or mafia-fighting police units?

both
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2012, 09:27:39 AM
Today's second topic is...

watermelons!


Hungarians like watermelons. We also like fried chicken, yes.

Politicans like to take up the watermelon subject during summer. This year, agriculture's state secretary, former dude in charge of uncovering socialist illegal stuff (failed), basically strong armed food chains to seel watermelon on 90 forints per kg.  Up from around 60.
This was to "save the farmers". Of course, he didn't bother explaining how the final sale price help the farmers, whose watermelons are bought up by distributors who then sell to foodchains who then sell it to the public.

Since the announcement, the commerce-whatever office declared this to be unlawful carteling. Not that it changed anything yet.

I am mentioning this because this state secretary prick just told on a public forum, and I do quote:
"so, the socialists and the commerce-whatever office is telling that I formed a cartel. So? What can they do with me? What can they do with the ministry? What can they do with the government?"


And that's the way the cookie crumbles around here, folks!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 13, 2012, 09:38:11 AM
Pity - the Hungarian anti-cartel office has had a rather good reputation in the region as both competent and corruption-free. Shame that Orban's government is bent on destroying that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 15, 2012, 01:42:08 AM
Is it just me, or having 5.8% inflation while the GDP shrinks 1.2% is indeed an achievment?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 15, 2012, 02:31:39 AM
You are being sarcastic, right?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 15, 2012, 02:33:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 15, 2012, 02:31:39 AM
You are being sarcastic, right?

Yes. I don't get how we can get skyrocketing prices when the economy shrinks, and some sectors (like construction) basically stops functioning
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2012, 06:21:04 AM
Orban spoke to a gathering of ambassadors. He declared that Hungary has been more successful in countering the crisis than western europe (I guess record negative GDP "growth" and record high inflation counts as two achievements), but we shouldn't get carried away with pride as not all the results are showing.

Also this successful new way of doing this had to have its criticism. His example: "when we say we tax the banks, there ought to be upheveal. But we must say 'yes we will tax them' and not just temporarily, but for the next 20 years".
Well, he HIMSELF said "temporary" just a few months ago. This guy is the master of doublespeak.

Also, his term of "opening toward the east" (which in practice means worshipping China and other SE Asian worker hellholes for their "efficiency") is "deliberately misunderstood". This is something, he says, that the West has been doing already. His prime example was the Dutch, who opened so much that even conquered territories there centuries ago.


:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 22, 2012, 06:34:16 AM
The English-speaking branch of Iranian state TV uncovers the truth in Hungary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO8CoEWUGuw&feature=player_embedded#!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 22, 2012, 06:45:57 AM
I like how they show the Austrian banks (well, that part of Unicredit was Bank Austria) in the teaser. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 22, 2012, 06:46:10 AM
Also, post that video in the Paradox thread. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 22, 2012, 06:47:51 AM
Not to mention the top comment on YouTube:

QuoteZionists further attempting to corrupt and control the world. BURN THEIR HOMES TO THE GROUND AND CHASE THEM INTO THE SEA! Leave their kind no place to harbor their violence and tyranny. Allow the people to reclaim their wealth and the world to move forward in peace.
skb0rzn 1 day ago 16 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 23, 2012, 07:01:52 AM
even a study from their ministry of justice found the government's plan on voter registration as problematic.

Current plans is that there would be a deadline several months before the general elections by which time everyone who wanted to participate would have to appear in their municipality council office in person (or by delegate) and register for participation.

Funnily enough, they will grant voting right for Hungarian citizens outside of the border, and they will not have to register, and they will be able to vote electronically, or in the mail, while Hungarian residents will not be able to do either (and have to register).

Together with the planned stopping of state funding for political parties, the abolishment of the second round of elections, the new system which gives a huge number of extra seats for the winner of the election, and the new division of voting districts which have been drawn so that the elections which FIDESZ lost would had resulted in FIDESZ victory if these new borders would had been in effect, I am considering boycotting the election in 2014, because it will be very heavily rigged toward FIDESZ victory.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2012, 12:17:04 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fma%2Fmandiner%2Fimage%2F1208%2Fovv.jpg&hash=5403012ab362573886d8b366fbabebb577ac271f)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2012, 12:45:21 PM
What is hilarious, in a sad way, when a blogger/journalist writes about the evident spread of antisemitism, and the slow but steady escalation of racism, like this right-sided journalist who wrote about how he is starting to get afraid, he gets Internet comments like
"you moron, are you insane? what are you talking about? in danger? you will get what's coming for you, you'll see"
"what's your problem? missed the train?"
etc.

exactly like the "behead those who say islam is violent" crowd.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on August 26, 2012, 02:18:27 PM
5.8% is record inflation?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 26, 2012, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 26, 2012, 02:18:27 PM
5.8% is record inflation?

in the eu it allegedly is right now
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 28, 2012, 02:47:00 PM
couple of weeks ago three Hungarians were kidnapped in Syria, by rebels.

A day or two ago they got released. It's a bit suspicious to be honest.

All 3 are ex-cops. Rumor says they worked for the government and the rebels released them out of a goodwill gesture.

On the press conference with them, hosted by TEK (Anti-terror unit, recently formed, basically the personal army of Orban IIRC the command structure), a TEK officer (in black beret and everything) was caught on microphone leaning to one of the ex-hostages (who claimed to had been tourists in Syria) saying "tell them less, they'll have less chance to pick on it"

:yeahright:

By all chance it is unrelated, but the government-sponsored press has been somewhat busy highlighting in recent weeks, how Assad is a regional hero, in fierce combat against multiculturalism and Islam extremists (yes, both at the same time).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 28, 2012, 02:51:20 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fma%2Fmagyarinfo%2F%2Fsz%25C3%25ADria.jpg&hash=413408f1915e88ddbc4ea9892dd22baeb3ac5021)

To the right are the ex-hostages.

At the center, masquerading as Steven Segal, is the leader of TEK.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on August 28, 2012, 03:26:11 PM
At least your anti terror unit has a cool name.

TEK.

Awesome.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 28, 2012, 03:29:41 PM
Commanded by William Shatner.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on August 28, 2012, 03:54:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 28, 2012, 02:47:00 PM
By all chance it is unrelated, but the government-sponsored press has been somewhat busy highlighting in recent weeks, how Assad is a regional hero, in fierce combat against multiculturalism and Islam extremists (yes, both at the same time).

So they want a moderate form of xenophobia.  Islamism goes too far.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on August 28, 2012, 07:01:00 PM
Quote from: Syt on August 28, 2012, 03:29:41 PM
Commanded by William Shatner.
I was gonna say...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: clandestino on September 10, 2012, 08:28:18 PM
So Tamas, I was reading something in the Spanish newspaper El País about the arrest of Bela Biszku on the grounds of actions against the Hungarian revolt* of 1956.

Now, while I was reading this I became somewhat confused on what to think about it: being in favour of Pinochet's arrest in the past, I guess I have to be in favour of this as well, but at the same time, I wonder if this is some attempt by FIDESZ to divert attention from something else.

I'm somewhat confused and maybe this is just an well oiled judicial system working... but why now? Could you share your view on this situation? :)

* this was the first word that came to mind. Not trying to score any political points here...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:00:49 AM
it was a revolution :P


And while I have no doubt the timing of this is to divert attention from the disaster which the rest of this year will be (new budget will be needed, some pretty interesting and dangerous laws will be accepted, etc.), I am glad they are doing this and I hope they will jail the old bastard.

He has been living on a very generous pension, largely forgotten, until a couple of young journalists pretended to be enthusiastic communists and wanted to do an "honoring" interview the old guy. He regrets NOTHING of what he did.

He was the leader behind the executions, the mass arrests, the whole retribution. He is not one inch better than the nazis. He was a major collaborator with foreign occupation forces, and the fact he still breaths is offense enough, let alone the fact that he is a well-off free man on a state pension.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:42:27 AM
Yesterday there was a debate in Parlaiment about a new law concerning domestic violence (since that term doesnt really exist in criminal law yet here).

The take on the subject by government MPs: "women should give birth to children, not try to express themselves and their ambitions"

MEOWTF?!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 11, 2012, 08:54:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:42:27 AM
The take on the subject by government MPs: "women should give birth to children, not try to express themselves and their ambitions"

That sounds like an Ed Anger troll.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on September 11, 2012, 08:58:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2012, 08:54:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:42:27 AM
The take on the subject by government MPs: "women should give birth to children, not try to express themselves and their ambitions"

That sounds like an Ed Anger troll.

Agreed which makes that very sad.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: clandestino on September 11, 2012, 07:14:15 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:00:49 AM
it was a revolution :P

:) First, thanks for your input. From what I gathered your opinion must be what most hungarians think, apart from some die-hard commies (I guess there are still some). Good decision then.

About the revolt/ revolution, it might be something about language or culture. I guess we couldn't call anything that failed a revolution (that is reserved to the situations that somewhat succeed).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on September 12, 2012, 07:50:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2012, 08:54:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 11, 2012, 03:42:27 AM
The take on the subject by government MPs: "women should give birth to children, not try to express themselves and their ambitions"

That sounds like an Ed Anger troll.

HEY NOW
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 09, 2012, 02:05:47 AM
I might do a longer post on how the deterioration of the country continues unhindered, but for now I just want to show you these very recent, government-payed ad in major newspapers:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F340%2F3405%2F34054%2F3405484_a18e8ca93832b4ebd38d018479e27a6f_wm.jpg&hash=d00e81bbd549c8d55d04e5f262f503397212ccd7)


first on the left: "what we expect from the IMF? RESPECT, TRUST! We will not sacrifice Hungary's independence"
second: "DECREASED SUPPORT FOR FAMILIES We will not yield to the IMF!"
third: "PROPERTY TAX We will not yield to the IMF!"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: clandestino on October 09, 2012, 05:04:32 AM
I don't understand it, so the governmment asks for the "help" of the IMF and then proceeds to sabotage its work in the newspapers?

That's so odd.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 09, 2012, 06:34:37 AM
They could use the low interest loans from the IMF very much (we sell bonds around 6-7% now and we sold them even worse at the start of this year. With -1% GDP "growth" projected, that's quite a steep price).
However, IMF wants a look in your books and tell you what to spend on. That's NOT how these guys roll. Their rule has been characterized not just by a de facto constitutional coup de etat but also rampant corruption and shameless lawmaking to directly benefit the sponsors of the party.
Obviously you can't do that when somebody is watching the books over your shoulder.

As a result they have been conducting heavy anti-IMF propaganda ever since they realized they can't get the loan to spend it as they see fit. However, they are totally incompetent in not running the country's economy to the ground, so they need more money. Therefore, I see two possible scenarios:

-paradoxically, they are REALLY close to signing a deal with the IMF, but they think that even they cannot go from "IMF is teh devil" to "we signed a deal, it's fine, really" and not lose face. So, they have been pretending to have received outrageous demands from the IMF to DESTROY TEH PEOPLE, and they are posing to be locked in this life-death struggle against the IMF, who REALLY REALLY wants to loan us money, but we don't need it. So after this campaign of pretending the outrageous demands, they can sign the real deal which of course will be much milder (anything but a terror bombing campaign would be milder than what they lie to come from the IMF), aaand as a result they can claim victory (having forced mighty IMF to agree to the milder -ie. real- terms)

-they don't want an IMF deal, but they have had to keep the image of negotiations up, and it is slowly time to let that go. Why? Because the country's Central Bank has a huge foreign currency reserve, acquired during the 2008 crisis to shield the national currency from possible speculative attacks. The current C. Bank prez have been keeping their grabby hands away, but his mandate ends next March and they can have their guy take charge and give the reserve to the budget, giving them enough money to start spending and win the election in '14. That would also destroy the last reserves of our banks and economy and would surely destroy the country in mid-term, but that's hardly their worry now is it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on October 09, 2012, 07:52:59 AM
Quote from: clandestino on October 09, 2012, 05:04:32 AM
I don't understand it, so the governmment asks for the "help" of the IMF and then proceeds to sabotage its work in the newspapers?

That's so odd.

Well the Argentine Government borrows massive amounts of money from people and then calls them vultures and thieves when they want to be paid back.  It is a game lots of governments play.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 18, 2012, 02:57:47 AM
Jobbik marched through Miskolc, probably the shittiest city in Hungary, due to it being full of dirt-poor gypos (and whites).

Gypsies and opposition activists did a small counter march. Photo gallery on the link:
Quotehttp://hvg.hu/nagyitas/20121017_Jobbikosok_ciganyok_es_rendorok_az_Avason
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on October 18, 2012, 04:00:28 AM
So is there anything to suggest that the situation in Hungary may be looking up or is it still on the downward spiral?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 18, 2012, 04:21:48 AM
heh, downward than ever.

They keep plugging the wholes on the budget by more and more taxes, instead of cutting spending.

Their ONLY, ONLY concern is winning the 2014 elections.

The latest effort on that, pre-registration... ridicoulous. One of the main arguments against it is of course that the state already has a complete list of citizens, their birth date, and their addresses, so there is no need WHATSOEVER to register.

Their latest reaction? "okay, then we disband the state registry. There you go"

Of course, the buearucratic labyrinth which made that registry necessary will remain. And all that data will also remain at various branches of the administration. It will be just slower and more cumbersome for one office to get the data.

And there are other examples like that. Like how the whole registration idea is unconstitutional, so they change the constitution. They change it every couple of months basically, and they propagated it as a long term foundation for our society.

In summary, they haphazardly tweak long term and crucial things, ENTIRELY based on their interest DURING THAT SINGLE DAY.

There are literally thousands of small companies declaring bankrupcy each quarter, breaking records every time. Recession for 2013 is just about assured.

And yet, YET, the only time they trigger loud opposition is when they try a vague affair at touching the welfare spending.

The country is trapped between an untalented maffia mob leadership and a socialist mob populace. :(

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 18, 2012, 10:12:39 AM
Welcome to democracy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 24, 2012, 01:02:33 PM
So has the flag-flying of Gordon Bajnai reached the Western press?

He was the "try and prevent a crash so we still get into Parlaiment in 2010 okthxbye" guy of the Socialists in 2009. Served as PM for a year, was in charge to enact some of the stuff the IMF requested for the bankrupcy-avoidance loan they gave us (funny fact: most of those reserves were spent by "we are freedom fighters and shall not yield to the IMF" Orban).
He was never a Socialist party member as far as I know but had functions in the government before his. A well-established businessman (and, well, you cannot be a well established businessman and not have some solid political connections in this country) and crisis-manager of companies, he was successful in indeed saving us from bankrupcy, with rather mild cuts. Altough to be fair, the structural problems he did not touch, those remained for Orban to keep ignoring them. But then again, he clearly stated that he was taking over for a single year to keep the country afloat, and that's what he did.

Politically, he appears to be a middle-left kind of guy, altough as with I guess most of Europe, economically liberal-minded public persons must masquerade as mild socialists to survive.

After his one year term, he moved away from politics. Needless to say, as fuckups upon fuckups piled up for the FIDESZ government, and their ridicoulous incompetence has become evident to everyone but the hardcore fanbase, the short reign of Bajnai started to look much better, and even some amount of idealization by the opposition was taking place.

He is the exact opposite of Orban: he is not a big speaker. In fact, yesterday was his first ever appearance in front of a big crowd. Silent, calm, moderate.

And that is the exact recipe how Medgyessy defeated Orban in 2002. Then he proceeded to actually keep his election promises and totally ruined the country, but that is beside the point. :P

Yesterday Bajnai appeared on the demonstration of a civil initative, Milla, and announced the creation of the Alliance for 2014. They await everybody, parties and individuals, who agree on a few bulletpoints (uhm, freedom, solidarity, progress and Europe IIRC). He made extra-sure to open for the moderates on the right (I am not sure they exist, they are more like moderate lefties with a slight nationalistic overtone), and also mentioning the "orphaned liberals"

All in all, I think he very well outlined the way to defeat FIDESZ: since FIDESZ revamped the election rules in every possible way short of cancelling them altogether to favour themselves, several opposition parties going against them is hopeless and pointless. The opposition must have a united front to even have the off chance of winning.
So I do support this.

However, first day reactions already showcase the problem: the Socialists, and the tincy-wincy party of former Socialist PM now anti-christ Gyurcsany, declared to be happy to join the alliance, while newcomer naive-leftie-hipster-clueless party LMP showed some sharp reluctance. And of course with THAT setup (old socialist fuckups only) the alliance is doomed. If this situation persists, they will have to change their opinion and form a party of their own.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 26, 2012, 03:02:56 AM
news snippets:


-an association of history teachers publshed a study about the new plans for history education, citing how topics like late 19th century issues caused by the high cencus for voting (only 6% of the population voted), massive poverty among landless peasants in the same era, are missing, also how the Horthy era is portrayed only by it's positive side.

-Since the 2008 highs, about  250 000 taxpayers have disappeared from the system, according to the latest statistics. I think a lot of these simply moved abroad.

-on the topic of just how big fuckups can work in politics, that Jobbik MP who was a lound anti-semite and preacher of global cionist conspiracies who discovered his Jewish ancestry, left Jobbik a couple of months ago (more like was thrown out), and now a loud supporter of Israel and Israel's example of peace  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 26, 2012, 03:31:31 AM
Never heard of Bajnai. Sounds like an IMF stooge bent on destroying Hungary IMHO.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 26, 2012, 11:54:34 AM
Oh, and this week's nationalization: weather reports.

Apparently it is not fair that the state-own meteorology service has to compete with private ones and that it has to sell services to gain income. So nobody will be allowed to sell their weather reports for money, and the state-owned business will receive more tax grants.

Yay!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 07:41:00 AM
WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU PEOPLE!

A bill proposed by a government MP wants to offer Hungarian citizenship in exchange of the purchase of 250 000 euros worth of Hungarian bonds!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 30, 2012, 07:54:12 AM
Well, that's certainly an attractive way for some people to acquire EU citizenship.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martim Silva on October 30, 2012, 08:13:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 09, 2012, 06:34:37 AM
They could use the low interest loans from the IMF very much (we sell bonds around 6-7% now and we sold them even worse at the start of this year. With -1% GDP "growth" projected, that's quite a steep price).
However, IMF wants a look in your books and tell you what to spend on. That's NOT how these guys roll. Their rule has been characterized not just by a de facto constitutional coup de etat but also rampant corruption and shameless lawmaking to directly benefit the sponsors of the party.

Why are you frothing?

We're considered a wonderful democracy by the world, we enjoy a -3% GDP "growth", depend on foreign generosity to have any kind of cash, and still we are refusing the IMF/EC/ECB advice on where to spend stuff.

Our democratic politicians don't want anything to damage their own self-interest, so instead of accepting the IMF's suggestion to cut state expenditure, they've announed a 125% hike on the taxes on the poorest, and put the tax rate on those who make more than $95k/year to 65% (applicable on income earned through the salary, of course. Never on gains made on stock market speculation, bonuses or business 'deals' made by highborns).

The new measures - which also cut by 6% the unemployment benefits earned by the poorer workers who just lost their jobs - will put 30% of the population below poverty line, and 20% won't be able to afford housing (and perhaps not even food).

Do you really want to emulate us?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on October 30, 2012, 11:43:32 AM
Quote from: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 07:41:00 AM
WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU PEOPLE!

A bill proposed by a government MP wants to offer Hungarian citizenship in exchange of the purchase of 250 000 euros worth of Hungarian bonds!

Damn, that is cheap. Throw in two non tattooed Hungarian hotties and I will invest.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 11:58:11 AM
non tattooed ones? That's tough.


Anyways, this system here breeds the servile assholes of course. Like, this regional newspaper had an article and a picture about some kind of kids charity shit. They felt obliged to erase the Socialist mayor who sponsored it though. To their bad luck, the Internet has been invented.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F347%2F3474%2F34749%2F3474938_feba062e4951d6142401dc772def76f8_wm.jpg&hash=bceeed00824c3666ee88943b365f5265ac702c2a)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on October 30, 2012, 12:00:13 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 07:41:00 AM
WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU PEOPLE!

A bill proposed by a government MP wants to offer Hungarian citizenship in exchange of the purchase of 250 000 euros worth of Hungarian bonds!

That's not a terrible proposition, since Hungary is in the EU and you can then live and work anywhere you'd like within the EU.  And while Hungarian bonds are hardly the best investment out there they're probably not going to become completely worthless - even Argentina paid its bondholders some amount of money.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on October 30, 2012, 12:00:16 PM
I'll take 4 girls from that pic then.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on October 30, 2012, 07:27:02 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 11:58:11 AM
non tattooed ones? That's tough.


Anyways, this system here breeds the servile assholes of course. Like, this regional newspaper had an article and a picture about some kind of kids charity shit. They felt obliged to erase the Socialist mayor who sponsored it though. To their bad luck, the Internet has been invented.
We had the opposite here.  A Tory candidate campaigned to allow a family of asylum seekers to stay - they'd lived in Weymouth for about 10 years and had real fears of being forced to go back to Malawi, they had a lot of local support (story here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/aug/26/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices ).  When it came to the election, however, he changed the picture for his electoral leaflets:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FPolitics%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2005%2F04%2F12%2Fedmatts372.jpg&hash=cd5f2ffd693a7f2e5a660b655077e616604f291d)
:bleeding: <_<
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Count on October 30, 2012, 08:28:14 PM
I saw this thread for the first time today and I have to say it's one of the most interesting and informative on Languish.  :bowler:

You may now return to regularly scheduled anti-Roma racism.  ;)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 31, 2012, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 30, 2012, 07:27:02 PM
Quote from: Tamas on October 30, 2012, 11:58:11 AM
non tattooed ones? That's tough.


Anyways, this system here breeds the servile assholes of course. Like, this regional newspaper had an article and a picture about some kind of kids charity shit. They felt obliged to erase the Socialist mayor who sponsored it though. To their bad luck, the Internet has been invented.
We had the opposite here.  A Tory candidate campaigned to allow a family of asylum seekers to stay - they'd lived in Weymouth for about 10 years and had real fears of being forced to go back to Malawi, they had a lot of local support (story here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/aug/26/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices ).  When it came to the election, however, he changed the picture for his electoral leaflets:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FPolitics%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2005%2F04%2F12%2Fedmatts372.jpg&hash=cd5f2ffd693a7f2e5a660b655077e616604f291d)
:bleeding: <_<

:bleeding:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 31, 2012, 03:51:41 AM
Quote from: Count on October 30, 2012, 08:28:14 PM
I saw this thread for the first time today and I have to say it's one of the most interesting and informative on Languish.  :bowler:

You may now return to regularly scheduled anti-Roma racism.  ;)

thanks! :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on October 31, 2012, 04:05:27 AM
ELECTION LAW TIME!!


On Monday, Parlaiment debated the new election law, and they accepted the constitution changes allowing that new law.

That was needed because of the voter registration thingie. One of their many ways of reducing democracy. Before Americans and such wonder why registration is a big deal, it is a big deal because unlike your free countries, here the state runs a quite comprehensive list of all of it's citizens. My name, address, date of birth, criminal record (and I think marital status, perhaps even place of work) are all nicely stored in a central database accessible for public administration. That is why we had no voter registration before. There is no need for it. Voting right is universal and the state knows full well which citizens live in a given district anyways.

But they wanted to decrease the number of "impulse voters" so now you have to register in person or on the Internet (access to the relevant government page is granted after you personally visit the relevant office), and registration closes 15 days before the vote.

Funnily enough, you can nominate people even if you are not registered. Why? Because reducing the numbers of impulse voters and increasing the number of candidates both increase the chances of a FIDESZ victory, based on the single-round, winner-takes-it-all new system they are introducing.

Anyways, so there was debate on the law on Monday. Vote was to be made (and was indeed made) on Tuesday.
So they closed the debate Monday evening right. Next morning, one of the FIDESZ MPs (funnily enough, the only MP in modern history for whom there has been a proven election fraud done, in 2002) arrived to work with 65 pages worth of modifications to the law. The opposition had an hour to read it, analyze it, and then vote on it. Collective opposition tantrum gave them a few more hours to do the same.

Then it was accepted by the government majority of course.

What they did, among other things, was further tweak the borders of some of the election districts (I assume based on latest polls), ease on the registration-related restrictions (coming up with the rules I outlined above), and declare that associations are not eligible to run on the elections. Since this is a world of totally unrelated coincidences, Bajnai, whom  mentioned before, announced his association to organize the opposition last week. Now they will need to find an other form of organization.

So there you go. There will be elections (at least by the looks of it now), but the law has been carefully tweaked, lacking any kind of internal logic or consistence, to make sure FIDESZ have all the advantages, short of just not holding the election at all.

Oh, and also, the party-delegated observers in the district will have less rights than they had. They will not be allowed to participate in the counting of the votes. Also, since now there will be more foreign votes coming to embassies (since all Hungarian citizens can vote, even if they have no residence in Hungary), observers in those embassies will also not be permitted to participate in the count of the votes.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 06, 2012, 02:54:57 AM
Orban hails from a small village in my county. He loves football, he kept being a footballer of the village's team until a couple of years ago or so.

Already the biggest and most expensive youth football training institution is in the village, and now they have received 2.8 billion forints of state money to build a stadium with seats three times the number of the village's entire population  :lol:

That 2.8 billion grant is exactly 1 billion more than what handball, water polo, basketball, and hockey got from the state, combined.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 06, 2012, 03:02:32 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 06, 2012, 02:54:57 AM
Orban hails from a small village in my county. He loves football, he kept being a footballer of the village's team until a couple of years ago or so.

Already the biggest and most expensive youth football training institution is in the village, and now they have received 2.8 billion forints of state money to build a stadium with seats three times the number of the village's entire population  :lol:

That 2.8 billion grant is exactly 1 billion more than what handball, water polo, basketball, and hockey got from the state, combined.

worse than italians. At least il cavaliere had the decency to put his stadium in Milan
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
The scale at which the election law is being custom-made for FIDESZ needs is horrible.

For example, two recent modifications to the bill:
-FIDESZ has one big advantage over everyone else: a core (big) group of supporters who are easy to mobilize to wave the Good Leader's name on signs
Therefore what they are doing? They keep the ban on campaigning on TV during election day and the day before it, but it will be alright to hold rallys.

-The big question about the next election: will the opposition muster enough numbers to defeat FIDESZ despite the field leaning toward them? Well, they are making sure that clues on this will remain classified, as it will be forbidden to publish polling data, half year from election day.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on November 08, 2012, 03:19:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
it will be forbidden to publish polling data, half year from election day.

Wait, what?  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 08, 2012, 03:32:57 AM
Why are Hungarians so contrarian? All the world is going in the right direction except Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 03:51:00 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 08, 2012, 03:19:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
it will be forbidden to publish polling data, half year from election day.

Wait, what?  :lol:

It is not yet in the law, but they are planning it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 03:51:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 08, 2012, 03:32:57 AM
Why are Hungarians so contrarian? All the world is going in the right direction except Hungary.

WE WILL PISS AGAINST THE WIND JUST TO PROVE THAT WE CAN ALRIGHT?!!!!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 05:35:29 AM
Apparently, there are harsh debates between two factions on how the "ancient" Hungarian runes (most of which, IIRC, were created in recent decades based on archeologic finds in Transylvania) should be entered into the Unicode standard.
One faction wants it as "Old Hungarian", but the other argues that this implies it as a dead form of writing, which is not (on that they have a point, this lunatic bastards have town name signs in runes erected at basically every town, including mine. One of my days will be bad enough to hit it with my car). That second faction wants it to be entered as "Rovash" resembling the pronounciation of the Hungarian word for the signs.

Funniest thing for me is that what they do with their "rovash" writing is to replace letters of the latin ABC with these signs. And they consider that ancient.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 08, 2012, 05:41:53 AM
Oh no, so basically, most of this stuff is from the 15th-16th century Transylvania, allegedly.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 10, 2012, 06:13:19 AM
Next target: the Red Cross  :lol:

They shall only be allowed to have an account with the state, not with private banks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 10, 2012, 06:52:02 AM
Crisis brings out the beet in people.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:52:55 AM
There are more and more articles about such a rise in emigration that could soon only be compared to the trends a century ago.

Allegedly, according to German statistics, about 120 000 Hungarian citizens settled in Germany (officially) during the last 4 years, around 46 000 just this last year.

And London is already the "5th biggest Hungarian city in the world", meaning of course that there are only 4 Hungarian cities with a bigger Magyar population than London.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:56:43 AM
Also there is a new bill, which would basically create a separate "anti-corruption" police under the command of the Prime Minister's office.
They would have the right to get access to the books and contracts of every company who has ever had any contact with the state or state-owned companies (meaning just about every company in the country). They shall, among other things, make mirror copies of servers and data storages of target company.
They would have the right to have any contracts cancelled without giving a reason.

And the criminal cases they launch would be classified as priority ones, which means a lot of special circumstances applying. Like that they don't have to notify the company they launched the proceedings against.

In other words, if this bill passes, the PM will have EACH AND EVERY company and business grabbed by the balls.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:57:07 AM
Quote from: The Brain on November 23, 2012, 02:56:33 AM
Have any non-Gypsies emigrated yet? Gypsies are all over Stockholm, begging and acting like retards.

barely any gypsies left from here :P Those are mostly Romanians
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 23, 2012, 02:57:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:56:43 AM
Also there is a new bill, which would basically create a separate "anti-corruption" police under the command of the Prime Minister's office.
They would have the right to get access to the books and contracts of every company who has ever had any contact with the state or state-owned companies (meaning just about every company in the country). They shall, among other things, make mirror copies of servers and data storages of target company.
They would have the right to have any contracts cancelled without giving a reason.

And the criminal cases they launch would be classified as priority ones, which means a lot of special circumstances applying. Like that they don't have to notify the company they launched the proceedings against.

In other words, if this bill passes, the PM will have EACH AND EVERY company and business grabbed by the balls.

Oh my. How the feeble have fallen.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 23, 2012, 05:45:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:56:43 AM
They would have the right to have any contracts cancelled without giving a reason.

Que?  :huh:

I did not find the rest of it too egregious but this is either some oversimplification or a total puzzler. Could you give a bit of a background.  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 23, 2012, 07:22:08 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2012, 05:45:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on November 23, 2012, 02:56:43 AM
They would have the right to have any contracts cancelled without giving a reason.

Que?  :huh:

I did not find the rest of it too egregious but this is either some oversimplification or a total puzzler. Could you give a bit of a background.  :huh:

Trianon.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 26, 2012, 04:50:06 PM
Today the new law regulating elections have been passed, by individual voting (or however else you call it when each MP votes openly by name), on request of the Socialists.

Orban was not present. What a coward.


Also I guess a historic moment in this century: a Jobbik MP asked the government, based on the "current events in Gaza", to provide a list of jews in Parlaiment and in the government.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 30, 2012, 12:45:49 AM
I was speaking to my Hungarian colleague today.  He bemoaned what was happening to Hungary and mentioned the Jobbik MP who wanted a list of Jews as a sign of how bad things are back home.  Then he started mentioning Ayn Rand and said 'politicians are the worst everywhere'.  I replied that our journalists are at least as bad.

He said he liked British politics.  It was better here.  British politicians weren't anywhere near as bad as they are in Hungary.  His theory as to why this is is that we've got more Jewish politicians :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on November 30, 2012, 01:38:14 AM
Well, Disraeli was good.  :secret:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 30, 2012, 02:37:00 AM
Jobbik didn't let the list thing go.

Their angry nerd-looking prominent MP (husband of their female MP), wrote an e-mail to all the other MPs, demanding them to tell if they have any second citizenships.

According to him, the justice minister was first to reply that he does not.

A female MP from LMP (green hipster party with no identifiable program apart from spending more money than FIDESZ does) made a fool out of him though.

she replied that she has israeli and "pirezian" citizenships ("pirezian" is a nationality a 2006 poll invented to check for Hungarian xenophobia. Turned out the majority of Hungarians don't like them and don't want them in the country), and that she bought her Hungarian citizenship for cash days before the election.

Needless to say she was sarcastic, but the Jobbik dude immediately published an "OMG JEW IN THE PARLAIMENT!!!!" warning.

Then of course the chick posted on her Facebook how stupid the Jobbik dude was.

Did he let it go after that? Nope! He said that "I was aware of the prank, but it is an entirely possible scenario that somebody from LMP is jewish, since the Hungarian Parliament have more jews in it than Likud"

end of 2012, Hungary :x
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on November 30, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

Well then, the office of the Prime Minister is working on creating a fund in the States, called "Friends of Hungary".

So if you will be feeling like sponsoring the buildup of dictatorship in Hungary, you will be able to finance it directly!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on November 30, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
I don't know how to elaborate much more on the Hungary sucks theme.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 30, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

I kinda feel sorry for Tamas.  What a screwy country.  Poor guy has got to immigrate.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on November 30, 2012, 03:41:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 30, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
I don't know how to elaborate much more on the Hungary sucks theme.

Well, Hungary looks better when it stand next to Serbia and Romania.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 05:19:47 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 30, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

Well then, the office of the Prime Minister is working on creating a fund in the States, called "Friends of Hungary".

So if you will be feeling like sponsoring the buildup of dictatorship in Hungary, you will be able to finance it directly!

I have a reliable beet supply already.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 01, 2012, 03:01:07 PM
An other stuff these FIDESZ guys did, was giving more or less full control over state-sponsored culture (the way this country works, most of culture) to a particular organization (Hungarian Arts Academy or something). They have been faithful supporters of Orban over the years, and now their dominance is layed down even in the new constitution (yeah, ridicoulous).

I saw a short interview with their leader. Quite the presbiteran fellow.
Key points of his view on the future of culture here (as far as state institutions like museums, and state funding is concerned):
-no lack of respect for the nation
-no criticism of christianity
-on the question about "shouldn't church and state be separated" he replied: "why should it be? I am reformed, I am a presbiteran, this is how I want it to be"
-on the comment saying "well, in modern democracies..." he replied: "I don't give a damn about democracy. That democracy is not modern, and not democractic".
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 01, 2012, 03:22:58 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 05:19:47 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 30, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

Well then, the office of the Prime Minister is working on creating a fund in the States, called "Friends of Hungary".

So if you will be feeling like sponsoring the buildup of dictatorship in Hungary, you will be able to finance it directly!

I have a reliable beet supply already.

they could have kickstarter-like tiers:

5 beets: get your own gypsy
10 beets: get a jobbik outfit with afro
etc...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on December 01, 2012, 05:56:59 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 30, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 30, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
I love this thread so much.

I kinda feel sorry for Tamas.  What a screwy country.  Poor guy has got to immigrate.

I think you mean emigrate. :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 02, 2012, 03:52:55 PM
To not only write negatives: remember that Jobbik MP asking for a list of Jewish MPs? It ended up generating a quite large demonstration today, against it of course.

The 3 lead speakers were Bajnai (crisis-handling Socialist PM for a year, now leader of the rapidly rising opposition organization), Mesterhazy (prez of the Socialists), and Rogan, a prominent member of FIDESZ. All made speeches avoiding party politics, except for the Socialist guy.

So yeah of course, Orban is not taking a stand against nazism, since a large number of his voters ARE nazis to a degree, but still having FIDESZ and their opposition on the same stand making pro-freedom and anti-nazi speeches is quite unique.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 03, 2012, 07:37:54 AM
I think it is (probably remote) possibility, that Orban has started the "decomissioning" of Jobbik.

The "make a list of Jews" speech occured with perfect timing for Fidesz as I mentioned, as public discourse should be about the fact that we don't really have fully democratic elections anymore. But no, discussion is about (the clearly present) anti-semitism.
So I am having a hard time believing that the timing was coincidental - I think Jobbik, or just the MP, was bribed to do it at that day.

But now with Rogan's participation at yesterday's anti-Jobbik rally, FIDESZ backstabbed that deal I guess.

With a little more than a year until the elections, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the first move in a long term operation to weaken, discredit, then destroy Jobbik, throwing them away as now being useless.

And that's because this would be far from being the first time. Orban's only genius is in manipulating people, and scheming.
The farmer's party was always one of the strongests in the 90s. They became the smaller half of a coalition with FIDESZ in 98.
Altough their crew was dumb and corrupt, it was still impressive, how totally they were teared apart slowly. When the dust of the next election settled, they were literally gone.
And the first governing party of post-commie times, MDF. They first were eaten by FIDESZ, then a female leader of them (Ibolya David), tried to regain independence. She let go the FIDESZ-serving senior members, she adopted a classi conservative stance, and made a noteworthy success by gaining an EU Parliament seat.
Which triggered Orban's campaign I think. Drug problems of her son leaked, phone tapping of the party (from which, by a trick I can't recally, David got out worse because she made the fact public or something like that), a clearly FIDESZ-sponsored young pretender within the party...
Long story short, Orban is an expert in destroying parties on the right side of the spectrum, and I wonder if a plan has been set into motion against Jobbik.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 04, 2012, 01:53:37 PM
 :lol:

That asshole main culture guy I wrote about?


In that interview he not only outlined how much of a patriot christian he is, he also very vehemently refused the comparison to the most determined cultural minister of the post-56 era.

Turns out, he finished the university in 56. In 1957, when there were executions, retributions, and only the most loyal and servile communists go get into positions with ANY kind of relevance, he catapulted from a fresh graduate to a senior position (lead designer or something like that) in the General Architecture Corporate (state owned organization dealing with architectury stuff)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 07, 2012, 06:41:59 AM
I just don't get this government.
Really, there are only 3 possible explanations which could encompass the different idiocies they have been doing:
-they are in fact a really smart gang, with NOTHING on their agenda but robbing the budget blind before the people will have enough of them and they need to flee to South America
-they are just totally incapable of performing their job, this coupled with Orban's pathologic fear of not being re-elected, pushing them from one haphazard disaster to an other
-some kind of combination of these two

I mean, they spent years after years attacking any cuts of state spending on higher education, namely the number of "free" spaces.
And now they decrease them to a low not seen since before WW2.

Is it a problem on it's own? Not for me. They do offer 50-50 state-student deal for a lot of places, plus state-subsidized student loans.

But, while they do this, they spend bigger money than they save here, on football teams and stadiums. And other idiocy, like 4 billion forints on that Friends of Hungary bullshit. I bet that money alone could finance a much milder cutback on education.

edit: and also, they announced yesterday that they would make gas and electricity prices decrease 10%. The fuck is this shit
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 10, 2012, 01:02:55 PM
A (so far not huge) group of uni students are on a semi-improvised demonstration. They blockaded a bridge on the Danube for a while, now marching through Budapest
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 18, 2012, 04:10:50 PM
The higher education thing is still in full swing.

Governmential efforts to put the fire out escalated it  :lol:

Here is a brief timeline of said reactions:

-it is not a fee. It is a contribution
-"I don't understand why the college students are demonstrating. This decision only affects the ones coming after them, the current high school students" - said by two prominent FIDESZ members
*high schoolers start joining the occassional demonstrations, planning a full-blown "strike"*
-Orban asked about this back in Brussels: "the matter will be handled by the weekend"
-he comes home, refuses to meet with the student organizations, rather pulls a cringe-worthy stunt of having a coffee with some young people in a posh pub, all pre-arranged (bodyguards sealing off the pub in advance, only letting these "random youth" in etc)
-he throws the previous concept out the window announces a radically different one (where everyone would get state sponsorship if they manager good enough -still not determined- entry scores). Gives the ministry 3 days to come up with a plan
*queue in biggest demonstration yet*, yesterday

Yesterday, several thousand protesters, after the end of the official demo, go to the state radio's building (like anyone still listens to that), demands that they get to read their 6 points in the 9PM news.
Radio agrees. But ends up not letting the student rep read it, instead they made the demonstration their first news, read SOME of the 6 points. 10PM news does not feature the demo at all.

This morning the relevant minister met with a student delegation, with the loud promise of 40k paid college/uni places, but the actual criteria on how to get those are missing, and the students quickly leave, saying that for them the government appears to be in complete disarray over the issue, as none of their questions could be answered and the minister was in no shape to brief them on details, let alone negotiate them.

EDIT: also today, several parents reported to a leftie newspaper that their high school students in a town where separately interviewed/interrogated by the principal regarding their take on these demonstrations, and wether they know anything about any plans for the school. She logged the answers, and allegedly will send them to the government's office in the county.
:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on December 19, 2012, 05:41:06 PM
A few student leaders were taken away by the police tonight, since they took charge of the couple hundred protesters, who -at the end of the organized demonstration- went to block one of the Danube bridges, and this was not announced previously.

Not a biggie I think, I mean, the police was obliged to do so, but still a nice pic on how you run a full circle in politics:


(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F9636_464916526878463_607147088_n.jpg&hash=4a2c030149df09079c5a413583bb8a1e2649fafd)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 30, 2013, 07:55:10 AM
Couple of days ago the finance minister causally mentioned that half a million Hungarians are working in other countries ("we will get them back!"). This is way over what people thought before.

And it looks like it wasn't just something he made up. His ministry actually quotes a gathering of estimates from embassies. That says about 300k are in the UK, most in London, 100k in Germany, 50k in Austria, the rest dispersed throughout the EU.

That's like 1/7th of the entire active-age population  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 08:33:54 AM
I wonder what percentage of all working Eastern Europeans are in London.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 30, 2013, 09:50:23 AM
"Viktatura - putting Viktori into Diktatur!"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 09:54:06 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 08:33:54 AM
I wonder what percentage of all working Eastern Europeans are in London.

For Poles, it apparently dropped sharply recently. It seems it's easier to find a job in Warsaw than it is in London.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 09, 2013, 02:06:09 PM
Should I be: thinking twice before I comment on the Hungarian Internet?

Mr. Papcsák is an important member of the FIDESZ family. He is a go to guy when it comes to corruption, cheating on an election (he is the only MP evah, to have the court determine his staff cheated), or putting his name on shady bills.

His loyalty is only overshadowed by his sense of pride.

So when he discovered this thing called the Internet, and how blog comments on the online edition of the lamest left-wing newspaper (Népszava) say bad things about him, he turned to the police in search of justice for his damaged ego.

The police asked Népszava to hand over their server logs so the identity of the commenters could be revealed. The newspaper declined.

HOWEVER, looks like SOMEHOW the police did find at least some of the commenters. The newspaper could only interview one so far I think. She was called to appear at the police, as a WITNESS in this case.
Now of course as a witness you cannot say falsehoods, so she admitted that she was the one telling all that crap about Mr. Papcsák.

I am not sure how this will proceed, but it does raise some questions: how the fuck did the police get their hand on the commenter's identify? Népszava, and the person's ISP both decline that they would have given the info away (the ISP never ever got a request even, IIRC).
Also, is this an indication of things to come? My Internet post happen to find a FIDESZ functionary in a foul mood and I am off to the police station answering questions?

WTB job on the North American continent. kthxbye
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on February 09, 2013, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 09, 2013, 02:06:09 PMNow of course as a witness you cannot say falsehoods

Uhm, at least here you can refuse to testify as a witness if it could incriminate you or your close family/partner.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 09, 2013, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 09, 2013, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 09, 2013, 02:06:09 PMNow of course as a witness you cannot say falsehoods

Uhm, at least here you can refuse to testify as a witness if it could incriminate you or your close family/partner.

yeah turns out its the same here.

Isn't that kind of shooting yourself in the foot tough? "I am not testifying, because, actually, I am the perpetrator!"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on February 09, 2013, 05:03:21 PM
Yeah, I don't think that the point is to use the law to punish the perpetrator, but rather to identify them so that the can be assaulted by paramilitary thugs.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 10, 2013, 12:27:13 AM
It sounds like defamation or libel, which surely isn't a criminal issue? :mellow:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 04:57:32 AM
so there were these college/uni student demos against a bunch of stuff like the sudden drastic cut to the higher education budget, or that to solve the problem of fresh graduates mass-exodusing out of the country, the government introduced a rule that if you got your diploma on a state-sponsored spot, you ought to stay 2 years in the country or pay the whole thing back.

So short timeline:

-demonstrations start
-country and government surprised and shocked - non nazi youngsters have voice and determination?!!
-routine bullshit by the government fails to slow down the demos, which are organized by the "official" countrywide student council body HÖOK and un-official smaller but more radical organization HaHa
-government tries to negotiate, main effort seems to be on turning HÖOK and HaHa against each other
-HaHa is not allowed into the negotiations, HÖOK is fine with that
-HÖOK and the government make a preliminary deal about future negotiations, main point is that the government would not make any final decisions on the above issues until then.
-HÖOK stops with demos, HaHa tries to keep the flame alive but with very limited success
-this week, government declares it will put the "stay home for 2 years or suffer the consequences!" idea into the constitution
-HÖOK leader is "confused"
-government:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ytimg.com%2Fi%2FXfBBrTekP3C18KDo4tzhGw%2F1.jpg%3Fv%3D50123647&hash=0c3835c1ce0dbd5a11de80b0a500d9463da90ef0)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 10, 2013, 05:23:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 04:57:32 AMit will put the "stay home for 2 years or suffer the consequences!" idea into the constitution

Oh yeah, that's definitely something that needs to be enshrined in the constitution. :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 07:40:32 AM
Quote from: Syt on February 10, 2013, 05:23:47 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 04:57:32 AMit will put the "stay home for 2 years or suffer the consequences!" idea into the constitution

Oh yeah, that's definitely something that needs to be enshrined in the constitution. :huh:

well, this is the kind of people who rule as with a 2/3rd majority.

They have all kinds of shit in the constitution now. They change something in it every other month.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
I doubt that the EU would allow such a blatant restriction on the movement of workers.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
I doubt that the EU would allow such a blatant restriction on the movement of workers.

well it is not restricting their movement, it is just having pay them some huge-ass amount of money if they leave :contract:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
I doubt that the EU would allow such a blatant restriction on the movement of workers.

well it is not restricting their movement, it is just having pay them some huge-ass amount of money if they leave :contract:

Thus effectively restricting the movement of workers.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 11, 2013, 07:28:31 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 10, 2013, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 10, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
I doubt that the EU would allow such a blatant restriction on the movement of workers.

well it is not restricting their movement, it is just having pay them some huge-ass amount of money if they leave :contract:

Thus effectively restricting the movement of workers.  :P
This does seem a bit like Baldrick proposing a very cunning plan to get past the ECJ :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2013, 08:10:34 AM
Fans of FIDESZ have been holding "Peace Marches" to show mass support for their government and leader, beloved Orban.

The socialists organized a demonstration labelled "Hunger March" yesterday, in front of Parlaiment, in part to mock that name, I think.

Few things happened:

first, in funny twist of fate, scheduled maintenance work on the park in front of Parliament suddenly got switched to yesterday, so they couldn't get real close to the buildings, due to ditches, pipes, and construction machinery.

secondly, when they got there, a huge-ass sign was welcoming them above the parking place of Parliament, reading "welcome, participants of the socialst Powerhunger March!"

Who put it up there? Nobody knew. They couldn't take it down, as it was behind the triple police line of defense (I think there were more police officers than protesters).

But somebody made a pic yesterday afternoon:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.cdn.blog.hu%2Ffi%2Ffideszfigyelo%2Fimage%2FEhsegmenet_Fidesz_provokalo_molino_szerkesztes.jpg&hash=2c9939dd33886cdef6fff2efd7230e3cdeebf528)

So looks like the police actively helped put up the protester-mocking sign.
Also, that greenish-uniformed fellow in the back is a member of the newly formed Parliament Guard, under personal command of Chairman of the House, and aggressive asshole Laszlo Kover.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 12, 2013, 08:11:07 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.cdn.blog.hu%2Ffi%2Ffideszfigyelo%2Fimage%2F0211_Ehsegmenet_Kossuth_ter_eleje.jpg&hash=ca94cb18ecc8639903f9d0bbced041626056ff44)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 26, 2013, 11:53:42 AM
"Altough we beat their corruption-expert packs off from under our windows, there are still people who replaced their red underwears with orange ones, and make sure it peaks out of their clothing. The fight against them will occupy us for a long time to come".

Is that a quote from the "peace fight" times of the 50s? No, it is from Orban's yearly speech.
Looks like with the IMF as good as gone and no negotiations, he quickly needed a new enemy, and they will be the turncloacks, the not true FIDESZ-supporters, the ones not pure in heart.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on February 26, 2013, 12:38:37 PM
Rejoice Tamas, today Italy made Hungary look a bit better.

And actually among EU countries, if anyone cared about Romania and Bulgaria, or if internet connections enabled their citizens to participate on languish, they would make Hungary look better too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on February 26, 2013, 12:52:06 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on February 26, 2013, 12:38:37 PM
Rejoice Tamas, today Italy made Hungary look a bit better.

And actually among EU countries, if anyone cared about Romania and Bulgaria, or if internet connections enabled their citizens to participate on languish, they would make Hungary look better too.

Wasn't that hot guy we had once from Romania?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on February 26, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Alexandru H was from Romania.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on February 26, 2013, 12:58:16 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 26, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Alexandru H was from Romania.

Yeah and I believe the hot guy was his friend.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on February 26, 2013, 01:00:00 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 26, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Alexandru H was from Romania.

Wasn't he the guy that saw Jesus on his wall or something?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 04, 2013, 02:44:35 PM
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/01/guest-post-constitutional-revenge/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 03:17:37 AM
Americans like to discuss Amendments, now we will have one of our own! Well, it's the 4th in like 15 months, but anyways. It's a major one, which will get voted today.
The key for it is that there were several "temporary addendums" which they pasted in as "laws" but actually changed how the constitution worked. The Constitutional Court got pissed off after a while and declared that these are in fact affecting the constitutional rights and therefore are unconstitutional laws.
So now Orban is having all of the controversial stuff added straight into the constitution. So, a lot of the amendment was in fact recently found unconstitutional. But since they will be raised into constitutional status, they will cease to be unconstitutional, duh.

Key points (ALL of these will be part of the Constitution):

-"servitude" of college/uni graduates (where holders of state-financed diplomas must stay in the country for two years or pay their education)

-anti hate-speech laws will be raised into the constitution. I think the most important part here is that until now "public figures" had to put up with people having opinions about them in public. Not so much after this.

-leader of the office of judges (not sure of the best translation, an office they created to control judges-related stuff, chaired by the wife of a FIDESZ leader), will have the right to move any court cases to a court and judge of his/her choosing (eg. move a case from a Budapest court to Bumfuckville)

-Parliament will decide which organization is a church/religion and which isn't

-Constitutional court will not have the right to opinionate on budget-changing laws (no wonder. they fucked up the socialist governments on several occassions by having the const. court destroy their reform plans)

-the applicable governmental office will be able to make decisions instead of local municipalities if they fail to make a decision  by the applicable deadline

-if the EU or other organization fines Hungary for anything, the amount of the fine must be collected from the population in form of a one-time special tax

-the Constitutional Court will not be able to investigate ANY laws if the lawmaker did not specifically ask them to do so. Also, they cannot any more reference their decisions made before the enactment of the current constitution

-local municipalities will be required to give shelter to the homeless, but also make it illegal to to be homeless, basically. Sleeping in public spaces will be unconstitutional, in a way.

-"marriage is the union of a man and a woman"

-"basis of the family is marriage, and the parent-child relation". The Const. Court destroyed this earlier in it's law-form, because it is retarded (let alone partners, but siblings living together under the same roof could not be considered a family under this). No bother, they just make it constitutional

-during election campaigns, campaigning in any form of media but the state-ran can be banned.

plus a bunch of minor stuff, like they write it into the constitution that the situation of the agriculture (I guess the fact that not everything is yet under FIDESZ ownership) must be managed by 2/3rd law in the future


Plus, for added flavor, they will write it into law today, that electricity services (for households), cannot make a profit. They are planning to buy the electricity companies, so they don't stop here with showing them the finger. While they will be banned from making "profit", there will be new requirements for the number of customer service offices they must maintain, they cannot charge more than maintenance cost for streetlights and other municipal services, and a bunch of other "why? fuck you, that's why" regulations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 11, 2013, 04:02:07 AM
suckers.

ad get out
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 11, 2013, 05:24:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 03:17:37 AM
-during election campaigns, campaigning in any form of media but the state-ran can be banned.

Can you elaborate? Would online ad campaigns/websites be forbidden?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 05:31:40 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 11, 2013, 05:24:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 03:17:37 AM
-during election campaigns, campaigning in any form of media but the state-ran can be banned.

Can you elaborate? Would online ad campaigns/websites be forbidden?

AFAIK yes. Altough the law only gives the option to ban these, doesnt outright ban them. that works great in general with the media by the way. They gave themselves the option to issue crippling fines, and so both big private TV channels ceased basically all political coverages in their news, and stopping political shows.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 07:53:57 AM
the currently ongoing "debate" in parliament is a disgrace. Since they will also vote on that law affecting electricity bills which I mentioned, the awaited Orban speech at start were "ENTIRELY" about  how they decreased the burdens of the common people (they decreased utility bills by 10% by decree at the start of this year).
And this being a cowardly socialist hellhole, what did the opposition answer? Socialists: "it was well in time to finally do somethig for the people!" nazis: "they should decrease it 30%"

And then, as a small ex-socialist faction demonstrated with showing a big "dictatorship!" display, Orban turned that around, and declared it is to protect the big electricity companies.

so that is the strategy for today: while they make a major step in turning us into Belorussia, they (apparently successfully) try to switch conversation to how awesomly they decreased living costs (altough you could argue with a worthless currency, negative "growth" and 5% inflation what difference their stunt does).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 07:59:48 AM
BTW as part of that rhetoric, Orban in his speech urged the people to "rebel against the utility companies"

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 04:41:51 PM
Looks like they also figured out they could use this "10% bill decrease" stunt to refresh their local databases on people. A few years ago one of their prominent members got into a scandal for being busted on using a sophisticated list of all voters in his town, ranking them based on their feelings toward FIDESZ.

What they will do now is to have "approach all families" to sign for supporting FIDESZ's "efforts" for "decreasing the utility bills".

So you can choose between giving your name to this disgraceful masquerade of showcased governemt support, or decline signing it and face the prospect of entering the database as an enemy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 11, 2013, 04:45:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 07:59:48 AM
BTW as part of that rhetoric, Orban in his speech urged the people to "rebel against the utility companies"

:huh:

Can we do that without losing utilities services?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 11, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
They'll probably pass a law for that. Or that uitility companies can never, ever cut services.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on March 11, 2013, 04:58:27 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 11, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
They'll probably pass a law for that. Or that uitility companies can never, ever cut services.
They'll probably put it into the constitution as part of the inviolable Christian-Magyar patrimony of St Stephen :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 11, 2013, 05:01:34 PM
So when does the irredentism start up?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 11, 2013, 05:14:56 PM
A stunt from the demonstrations of recent days (most notably a flash mob of a few young people got themselves into the yard of the fidesz party hq, triggering a counter-demo from fidesz supporting elderly people), was to read quotes supporting the opposition's stance on the matters at hand - from Orban himself. Since he went from radical liberal through moderate centrist and then elitist conservative to leader of plebs, he has contradicted himself A LOT. As to how much: these youngsters I mentioned managed to have the pro-fidesz mob boo and hiss while listening to the readout of their leaders' speech (since they didn't realise it wasn't an original opposition piece)  from.... 2007.
We have always been at war wit Eurasia
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: PJL on March 11, 2013, 05:22:18 PM
Well think yourself lucky that Orban more of a Mussolini rather than a Hitler. He could have done real damage otherwise.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2013, 04:42:01 AM
I just wonder why the EU bothers with being upset about this.

Just suspend Hungary's member rights and if they persist kick them out of the EU. Then wait 10 years and send in the peacekeeping forces. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 04:50:30 AM
heh, I read there were rumblings in the EU about suspending the voting rights of Hungary.

If that happens, time to pack I guess, because all it will accomplish is Orban sending them a "thank you!" note and use it as a CB to leave and be left alone to his own agenda.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 12, 2013, 05:16:32 AM
Hey Tamas, how does the whole "you must stay for 2 years in the country after finishing university" work? I guess that it flies in the face of the EU's freedom of movement for workers, but I guess that Orban isn't worried about it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 12, 2013, 05:40:32 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 12, 2013, 05:16:32 AM
Hey Tamas, how does the whole "you must stay for 2 years in the country after finishing university" work? I guess that it flies in the face of the EU's freedom of movement for workers, but I guess that Orban isn't worried about it.

I don't think it does unless you can show how it damages non-Hungarians - the rules are usually emforced in a way to prevent discrimination of non-nationals, not vice-versa.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on March 12, 2013, 08:37:16 AM
I guess the real question is how is the government planning to prevent people from leaving.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 08:55:28 AM
So now knowing more details, it appears the excuse for Orban's outrage yesterday in Parliament (and "great" excuse for not talking about the destruction of last remaining checks and balances in our "democracy") was that the Energy Office's decision to lower energy prices by 10% in January -THE point in government success propaganda ever since-, got turned down by the court recently, after the energy companies complained that due to the extra taxes they also received in January made the price significantly lower than their cost. A price which was already lower than their costs, as far as private customers are concerned (so much for the OMG FOREIGN COMPANIES ARE ROBBERING TEH PEOPLES BLIND argument).

So, obviously, that would not bode well - the only "success" they could show in almost 3 years was something to make all communists proud, and now the legal system would take that away? UNHEARD OF!

So Orban had this speech about the "scandalous" court decision yesterday. Today one of his henchmen announced, that not only there will be more decrease to utility prices, but also that they will give the Energy Office the right to issue decrees, which, in turn, could not be challenged in front of a court, so the pesky problem of private companies seeking legal defense from ad-hoc political stunts destroying their livelihoods would be gone.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2013, 08:58:40 AM
So how are they going to get utilities to provide services for a loss? :hmm:

Physical violence?  :menace:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 09:07:04 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 12, 2013, 08:58:40 AM
So how are they going to get utilities to provide services for a loss? :hmm:

Physical violence?  :menace:

Well supposedly they are still good by charging extra to business, at least were. Incidently, Orban today mentioned that having expensive energy for business is unacceptable and they shall "fix" that as well.

Point is, I think, they are quite bent on making the private energy companies leave the country and sell everything back to them. I dont understand why they haven't done so already, allegedly the buyout price is pretty good as far as the worth of the infrastructure is concerned (altough I guess as part of the deal a portion of that must by given to state dignitaries greasing the deal), and it appears they won't see any kind of profit in the country for quite a while.

Then with state ownership, they will be free to return to the Kadar-ian measures of keeping living costs down from borrowed money.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 12, 2013, 09:22:34 AM
Kinda funny, Germany has it the other way round: energy intensive industries are getting tax brakes on their energy bills. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 12, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
Yo Tamas, according to EUOT:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.
QuoteApparently unmarried citizens without children are now excluded from applying for certain public offices, and will have to pay an additional tax.

Is that true (the public office part)?  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 12, 2013, 11:34:02 AM
Wow...so Tamas do you know anybody good?  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 11:58:20 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 12, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
Yo Tamas, according to EUOT:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.
QuoteApparently unmarried citizens without children are now excluded from applying for certain public offices, and will have to pay an additional tax.

Is that true (the public office part)?  :huh:

havent heard of that. They already have tax breaks after children and such, and there were plans of decreasing the pensions of those who do not have any children when reaching retirement age, but I think those remained plans.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 12:06:25 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/12/intesasanpaolo-hungary-idUSL6N0C4BMH20130312?type=companyNews

QuoteIntesa CEO: Hungary has turned into a "nightmare", could cut presence
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on March 13, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
Tamas, you'll love this post from one of my countrymen. :lol:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.&p=15166081&viewfull=1#post15166081
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 13, 2013, 11:15:20 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
Tamas, you'll love this post from one of my countrymen. :lol:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.&p=15166081&viewfull=1#post15166081

So taking complete control of the press is perfectly legitimate and democratic use of power if you win an election eh?  That is a pretty old school German right there.  I can almost hear him claiming East Germany/Nazi Germany is actually more democratic than the greedy grocers in the western liberal countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 13, 2013, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
Tamas, you'll love this post from one of my countrymen. :lol:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.&p=15166081&viewfull=1#post15166081

fucking Paradox fucktards
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on March 13, 2013, 02:56:36 PM
That post was odd.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 13, 2013, 02:58:37 PM
The President has signed the Amendment.

I just saw his TV speech over it. Considering that he is a college budy of Orban, it was rather dramatic. Altough not saying it out loud, he made it perfectly clear that he disagrees with the amendment, but the consitution (what FIDESZ made) has a clear wording on amendments: "the President signs it". So that's that.

Of course it is just worthless rhetoric since he could have resigned instead of signing it, still I somewhat appreciate the dramatic tone of the whole announcement. He made it look and sound like it was a grave sad thing.
Which it is.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: MadImmortalMan on March 13, 2013, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 12, 2013, 11:58:20 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 12, 2013, 11:21:25 AM
Yo Tamas, according to EUOT:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.
QuoteApparently unmarried citizens without children are now excluded from applying for certain public offices, and will have to pay an additional tax.

Is that true (the public office part)?  :huh:

havent heard of that. They already have tax breaks after children and such, and there were plans of decreasing the pensions of those who do not have any children when reaching retirement age, but I think those remained plans.


Didn't Augustus try something like that? I don't think it worked.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 05:50:37 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 13, 2013, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 11:06:52 AM
Tamas, you'll love this post from one of my countrymen. :lol:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?674586-Hungarian-constitutional-reform.&p=15166081&viewfull=1#post15166081

fucking Paradox fucktards

Yikes.  Yi and Derspeiss should read this if for nothing else to demonstrate that fascism does fit into the rightwing spectrum.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 08:54:21 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 13, 2013, 05:27:09 PM
Didn't Augustus try something like that? I don't think it worked.

I think his baby making and marriage policies worked better than the 'don't cheat on your spouse' ones.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 14, 2013, 10:48:41 AM
Trivia: the President today promoted the police general (or whatever the hell they have there) who is in charge of TEK, the counter-terrorist unit.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F400%2F4003%2F40034%2F4003462_f9b0dd2acd2096d236d14efd6c0b3d94_wm.jpg&hash=08f46fd635060ef099825a8d83d1c4f0f80a1f8a)


Moral of the story? It is worth declaring the area of the Presidental office a protected area and have it sealed off from the protesters who wanted the Prez to not sign the Amendment.


Meh. TEK is really Orban's personal bodyguard though. Chair of Parliament also has such a unit (now defined in the Constitution since the amendement). Wonder who else will have such units in the future. I guess with the rule of law slowly being destroyed, the prominents will need personally loyal armed men.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 03:16:14 AM
Rumor is, the 5th (much smaller) amendment is in the works, which would make it forbidden to reveal how many Hungarian citizens there are outside the borders, to "protect their security". That's kind of an important data though, considering that masses of ethnic Hungarians have been granted citizenship AND voting rights. Having an unknown, but surely huge number of voters mail in votes no independent organization will ever see... That's a bit fishy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:13:11 AM
wtf  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:14:58 AM
Btw, the local PiS idiots here have a total boner for Orban.  :lol:

Fortunately, for everyone else it's the reason why we should NEVER EVER let PiS back to power again.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:17:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:14:58 AM
Btw, the local PiS idiots here have a total boner for Orban.  :lol:

Fortunately, for everyone else it's the reason why we should NEVER EVER let PiS back to power again.

PiSiots came here to celebrate the 15th of March with their Orban-lovers, except huge snowstorms cancelled the party. Nobody told the Polacks though. They could had been told the night before "lol poland dont hop on morning train, we are buried under snow", but they didn't.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:42:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:17:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:14:58 AM
Btw, the local PiS idiots here have a total boner for Orban.  :lol:

Fortunately, for everyone else it's the reason why we should NEVER EVER let PiS back to power again.

PiSiots came here to celebrate the 15th of March with their Orban-lovers, except huge snowstorms cancelled the party. Nobody told the Polacks though. They could had been told the night before "lol poland dont hop on morning train, we are buried under snow", but they didn't.

LOL yes, I heard about it. They are now saying that the government sabotaged their train so that they missed the celebration. :tinfoil:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:53:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:42:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:17:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:14:58 AM
Btw, the local PiS idiots here have a total boner for Orban.  :lol:

Fortunately, for everyone else it's the reason why we should NEVER EVER let PiS back to power again.

PiSiots came here to celebrate the 15th of March with their Orban-lovers, except huge snowstorms cancelled the party. Nobody told the Polacks though. They could had been told the night before "lol poland dont hop on morning train, we are buried under snow", but they didn't.

LOL yes, I heard about it. They are now saying that the government sabotaged their train so that they missed the celebration. :tinfoil:

but there was no celebration.  :huh:

in fact, Orban fled the scene even before the snow situation on "important business in Brussels" since he was probably afraid of demonstrations against the new amendment. So the Polacks would had missed their beloved leader anyways.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 05:59:18 AM
FFS even on a "moderate right" Hungarian blog they make it a habit to explore the question of the jewish ancestry of the communist leaders. And then I am stupid enough to get into an argument with the nazis in the comment section.

It is sickening and ridicoulous at the same time, that a country with almost no jewish population, "jewish issues" dominate the everyday political talk.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
"Judeo-commune" (Zydo-komuna) (a claim that Jews hated good Polish/Hungarian/etc. Catholics so much, they became communist oopressors after the war) is the new blood libel in our part of Europe.

Incidentally, the more I read about pre-war and during-war Poland (numerus clausus, "school bench ghetto", aiding and abetting Holocaust etc.) the more I am convinced that if I was Jewish and alive in 1945, I would have sided with communists. Polish "patriots" were such a horrid bunch.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on March 21, 2013, 07:35:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 03:16:14 AM
Rumor is, the 5th (much smaller) amendment is in the works, which would make it forbidden to reveal how many Hungarian citizens there are outside the borders, to "protect their security". That's kind of an important data though, considering that masses of ethnic Hungarians have been granted citizenship AND voting rights. Having an unknown, but surely huge number of voters mail in votes no independent organization will ever see... That's a bit fishy.
It sounds like an obvious attempt to stuff the ballot boxes.  A little too obvious to believe, but with that crowd I suppose there's no low they won't sink to.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 08:01:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 14, 2013, 10:48:41 AM
Trivia: the President today promoted the police general (or whatever the hell they have there) who is in charge of TEK, the counter-terrorist unit.

Now you can fight TEKWAR.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
"Judeo-commune" (Zydo-komuna) (a claim that Jews hated good Polish/Hungarian/etc. Catholics so much, they became communist oopressors after the war) is the new blood libel in our part of Europe.

Incidentally, the more I read about pre-war and during-war Poland (numerus clausus, "school bench ghetto", aiding and abetting Holocaust etc.) the more I am convinced that if I was Jewish and alive in 1945, I would have sided with communists. Polish "patriots" were such a horrid bunch.

Yeah that's sometimes my reaction. "you are surprised the jewish survivors of the "patriots" flocked to communism? really?"

also: Zydo? we learned the word for jew from slavs? (its "zsidó" here) Whats with the Kazars being jewish? We lived with them for, like, centuries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 08:24:52 AM
on second thought, maybe you learned from us!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on March 21, 2013, 10:04:34 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 03:16:14 AM
Rumor is, the 5th (much smaller) amendment is in the works, which would make it forbidden to reveal how many Hungarian citizens there are outside the borders, to "protect their security". That's kind of an important data though, considering that masses of ethnic Hungarians have been granted citizenship AND voting rights. Having an unknown, but surely huge number of voters mail in votes no independent organization will ever see... That's a bit fishy.

So the voting census is going to be a state secret or what?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 10:24:11 AM
Pretty much. the part listing citizens with no hungarian address, at least.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 21, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
"Judeo-commune" (Zydo-komuna) (a claim that Jews hated good Polish/Hungarian/etc. Catholics so much, they became communist oopressors after the war) is the new blood libel in our part of Europe.

Heh I took a course of 20th Century Eastern Europe during my short period in Grad School, and IIRC one of the best ways to get turned into the secret police was to be Jewish.  I remember thinking how shitty that had to be...survived the Holocaust, got back to work and going about your business and then somebody rats you out to Securitate for being a Bourgeois counter-revolutionary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 22, 2013, 05:52:14 AM
This morning a band of security guards basically assaulted a small community building owned by the local municipality in Budapest. As it turns out, the municipality (FIDESZ-ran of course) or rather, the government, discovered that the recent flashmob-y opposition demonstrations by the young people were planned and organized in that building.
So the security personnel beat down the locks, installed new ones and proceeded to clear the building. About half a dozen guys refuse to leave right now, police and catastrophe recovery (!) is now on the scene as well.

The director of the building told the press that he was contacted yesterday late afternoon that they until today morning to empty the premises, which wa simply impossible since they had equipment and furniture and shit.

This getting less and less funny every week.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 22, 2013, 05:54:50 AM
Was it a squat or did they legally lease these premises?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 22, 2013, 05:58:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2013, 05:54:50 AM
Was it a squat or did they legally lease these premises?

There were some debates over its fate some months ago as I read, but then the municipality and the leasers reached an agreement, so it was legal.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 22, 2013, 02:10:04 PM
:bleeding: so looks like these idiots stopped paying rent for that building. God damn, if you go against a reckless government, cover your ass.

Also, a German TV covered our amendment with a cartoon or something in a news show for kids.
Our government got pissed of course, but what's best is that apparently Orban made a comment along the lines of "if this happened on a hungarian TV the creators would be out of the station in no time"
O RLY MR DICTATOR WANNABE?

The guy is less and less able to hide his real intentions and take on the relationship between him and his nation.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Liep on March 24, 2013, 06:33:57 AM
For the Danish speaking. Here is a nice article to give an overview of Hungarian politics.

http://www.information.dk/455355

(P.S. I wonder if Krarup thinks this is an assassination attempt on Orban?)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 24, 2013, 04:55:58 PM
There was a local election in a town, where the new party of the ex-PM Bajnai had its first test. They had a mayor candidate. The other big opposition party the Socialists also had their own.

Result? Altough Bajnai's candidate got second place, the FIDESZ candidate so trashed everyone else, that even the combined votes on opposition candidates would not have been enough.  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on March 24, 2013, 05:12:54 PM
Corruption?  Or does FIDESZ now enjoy overwhelming support?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 02:25:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2013, 05:12:54 PM
Corruption?  Or does FIDESZ now enjoy overwhelming support?

Actually I am quite certain it was a fair result. The latest country-wide polls showed two things:
-the huge amount of unsure people are mobilizing
-they mostly flock to FIDESZ

I need to GTFO :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 04:40:15 AM
latest news is, they will refrain from making the number of non-local citizens secret.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 25, 2013, 12:46:48 PM
Quote from: Liep on March 24, 2013, 06:33:57 AM
For the Danish speaking. Here is a nice article to give an overview of Hungarian politics.

http://www.information.dk/455355

(P.S. I wonder if Krarup thinks this is an assassination attempt on Orban?)

Nej, det tror jeg ikke det er. Eller mente du en anden Krarup?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on March 25, 2013, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 04:40:15 AM
latest news is, they will refrain from making the number of non-local citizens secret.

It seems your government's m.o is what we had under the rule of PiS.

Essentially, every week they would announce some outlandish shit that would get people up in arms only to be scrapped the following week, while they would do what they really want in the background.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 03:04:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2013, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: Tamas on March 25, 2013, 04:40:15 AM
latest news is, they will refrain from making the number of non-local citizens secret.

It seems your government's m.o is what we had under the rule of PiS.

Essentially, every week they would announce some outlandish shit that would get people up in arms only to be scrapped the following week, while they would do what they really want in the background.

yeah, pretty much
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 19, 2013, 11:36:55 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/547364_10152747753850483_576930581_n.png)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 19, 2013, 12:31:04 PM
goddamn ROMAnians
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on April 19, 2013, 12:39:57 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 19, 2013, 12:31:04 PM
goddamn ROMAnians
Maybe you shouldn't have weakened Austria so much then.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 30, 2013, 02:15:05 PM
There would have been a lot of stuff to cover here, but like most of the country I am becoming resigned about the whole thing. Let Hungarian Putin come! It clearly what we deserve.

However, this is worth a laugh.


One of the biggest scandals of recent months were the tobacco concessions.

A year or so ago the government declared that FOR TEH CHILDREN, selling of tobacco products would be tied to 20 years licenses, and those would be of course handed out based on the merits of the applications for them.

There were warning signs of what was to come, most notably that the Word file of the bill for this law was clearly marked as made on the computer of the owner of a big Hungarian tobacco product producer, local to the city of one of FIDESZ's leading personalities, who was, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT, was the sponsor of the bill.
But of course this fiasco didn't slow them down.

Couple of months ago, application results have been made public. It was worse than what anyone anticipated. The list of winners is a who-is-who of local FIDESZ dignitaries and their families throughout the country, from Budapest to the smallest village. Small family business who made a living out of small shop anchored on cigarette selling will be put out of business come Monday, just so political bedfellows could get extra income.

Some journalists, at the wake of the results made quick investigations, posing as tobacco-sellers who lost, calling the winners to work out a deal. It was clearly evident that a lot of those winners were no more than strawmen, acting for bigger players.

Later on, it got even nastier. for example, almost 30 license-owners are using the same office, an office of the aforementioned tobacco-baron as their HQ. So much for "supporting family businesses".

And the examples could go on. They severly restricted the free trade of tobacco products, and ransacked established businesses and livelihoods in order to let in all their minor supporters in the reckless looting that their elite has been doing for the last 3 years.

And the reason I decided to write this, is to show the best symbol of this whol disgrace. In a village which was allocated two licenses, husband and wife won them. They probably figured out that buying or renting a business place costs money, because they decided to open the two tobacco shops like this:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmost.444.hu%2Fassets%2Fsites%2F2%2F993044_679809432046222_775932600_n.jpg&hash=95a484aab0b87c9c1b1c001b00fb588d82579339)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 02:33:39 PM
:lol: Fidesz is really benchmark when it comes to clientele politics.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2013, 07:09:20 AM
I think it is getting more and more obvious that the government-sponsored press is pushing harder and harder to switch public discourse to a topic which is at worst neutral for the government: gay rights.

pro-FIDESZ blogs, newspapers, magazines, discuss the "building pressure" of "oppression of tolerance" as something amounting to a danger on everyday lives. And altough active pro-gay activity is indeed very low in Hungary, active and loud homophobia was almost as rare until recent past. Sure you had your nazis frothing in closeted  frustration and it's not like it was a great idea to publicly display your gayness everywhere, but there was no active prosecution, and the civil union law enabled gay couples and gave basically the exact rights as marriage did.
The latter has been gone for a while now, because civil union has been made nothing but a legally empty shell, making (hetero only) marriage the only form of parntership which gives any kind of real legal weight, but all this FIDESZ-related press coverage of the gay movement is, I am telling you, will start to escalate the situation.

And I think that is exactly what they want. Let there be debates about homosexuals, instead of their countless thievery.

example:

"Heti Válasz" has been going down the drains for quite a while now, but still is trying to act as a respectable moderate-right weekly magazine. Their current cover:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmost.444.hu%2Fassets%2Fsites%2F2%2Fhv1.png&hash=9354625b93e5d70a50ecad68016e4951a3f558dc)

it reads: "DICTATORSHIP OF TOLERANCE. New world order: how the gay movements endanger the rights of the majority"
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 18, 2013, 07:12:29 AM
Ah Tam, lucky break, otherwise I think you might have been forced into a gay relationship! And just think of the body paint and glitter?! :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2013, 07:21:01 AM
 :lol:

UNBEARABLE OPPRESSION!

Homophobes are funny. I wish they would just be honest with themselves and go down on each other.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 18, 2013, 07:25:04 AM
Well Hommen doesn't appear to be honest about it (i.e. they still are against gay marriage) but isn't that what they do? :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on July 18, 2013, 08:18:10 AM
What is with the picture of vegetables under events on that pic?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 18, 2013, 08:39:45 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 18, 2013, 08:18:10 AM
What is with the picture of vegetables under events on that pic?

Didn't notice that  :D
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 18, 2013, 08:42:33 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 18, 2013, 08:18:10 AM
What is with the picture of vegetables under events on that pic?


Google translate says it is a conference about market opportunities for Hungarian products, in particular those made of food. :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 18, 2013, 08:53:20 AM
Szegediner Gulasch! :w00t:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 11:49:06 AM
One of our few major oligarchs, Sandor Csanyi today sold basically all of his shares in THE Hungarian bank, OTP (has branches in neighboring countries as well). As he was the owner before this sell, it is quite a thing. Stock plumetted 14%.

This happens a couple of days after the government started talking about resolving the issue of foreign currency debts, hinting at eliminating some, or maybe all, of the extra costs on debt-owers which they accumulated due to price level differences (HUF tanked compared to CHF since these CHF debts were taken).
Not only that has MORAL FUCKING HAZARD written all over it, it would mean a serious blow to all banks present in Hungary.*

*the banks had some pretty fucked up ways to maximize their extortion of the poor SOBs who didn't know better than taking up huge debts in a foreign currency, but still that doesn't justify eliminating ALL risks these folks took in exchange of having super-low interest rates.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
Funny how we are moving back to the old world. I just had the thought of checking the state TV's news show to see how they report this sale - their tone will let me find out if this was in accordance with Orban's plans, or it is a sign of Csanyi abandoning Orban's side.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:40:40 PM
lol Hungary won the right to host the next swimming WC. Orban and the state TV are celebrating this like we will be hosting the Olympics
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on July 19, 2013, 12:41:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
Funny how we are moving back to the old world. I just had the thought of checking the state TV's news show to see how they report this sale - their tone will let me find out if this was in accordance with Orban's plans, or it is a sign of Csanyi abandoning Orban's side.

So which one is it?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 19, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
Every time I see "Orban" I think of Oban, which makes me think of scotch :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:46:30 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 19, 2013, 12:41:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
Funny how we are moving back to the old world. I just had the thought of checking the state TV's news show to see how they report this sale - their tone will let me find out if this was in accordance with Orban's plans, or it is a sign of Csanyi abandoning Orban's side.

So which one is it?

I missed the start, now I don't know if they even covered it.  :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 19, 2013, 12:51:36 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 19, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
Every time I see "Orban" I think of Oban, which makes me think of scotch :)

I misread it as Orhan.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 01:40:19 PM
holy shit the sport section following the news (which is usually 3 or 4 minutes tops with various short sports news) spent at least 5 minutes on an interview with Orban on the momentous occassion of us winning the 2019 Swiiming WC, and they spent time before and after that on celebrating this glorious event.

FYI, at the end we were only competing with South Korea, because the other applicants, the Great Powers of Azerbaijain and Mexico City (IIRC) stepped back.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: MadImmortalMan on July 19, 2013, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 19, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
Every time I see "Orban" I think of Oban, which makes me think of scotch :)


Me too. But everything makes me think of scotch. Like the fact that I need to pick up some scotch on the way home today.  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 23, 2013, 03:21:12 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/22/hungary-banker-profile-idUSL6N0FS2ID20130722


QuoteOCTOPUS

This year, signs emerged of tension between Csanyi and Orban's administration.

Orban's chief of staff, Janos Lazar, gave two interviews in which he said Csanyi had excessive influence, and likened him to an octopus whose tentacles spread over all aspects of life.

"In a democracy, that amount of economic power poses a serious risk," Lazar told the news website 444.hu last month.

If there was already a rift, Csanyi's decision to sell off his shares last week has probably widened it.

Over the weekend, the online edition of Magyar Nemzet, a paper close to Orban's Fidesz party, reported that the OTP chief was considering resigning due to ill health, and that this was why he sold off some stock.

This was contradicted by OTP's chief press officer, Bence Gaspar, who said Csanyi was in good health, would not resign and had sold the shares to raise cash for his agri-businesses.

Several people close to the OTP chief gave Reuters a detailed account on the state of Csanyi's health, on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to speak to the media on this subject.

They said Csanyi underwent planned open heart surgery in February to fix a genetic defect in a part of the aorta and a heart valve. After a five-week recuperation he received a clean bill of health from his doctors, these people said, and was back at work.

They said he has thought about resigning the CEO post and remaining chairman in the future, but not any time soon.

The newspaper story may have been a ploy to undermine him, said several observers, though
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on July 23, 2013, 07:37:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 19, 2013, 01:40:19 PM
holy shit the sport section following the news (which is usually 3 or 4 minutes tops with various short sports news) spent at least 5 minutes on an interview with Orban on the momentous occassion of us winning the 2019 Swiiming WC, and they spent time before and after that on celebrating this glorious event.

FYI, at the end we were only competing with South Korea, because the other applicants, the Great Powers of Azerbaijain and Mexico City (IIRC) stepped back.
Still, you can tell that whoever is running the swimming federation is asleep at the wheel.  With the exception of China, countries with fascist governments don't get to host things anymore.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 23, 2013, 08:01:07 AM
Asleep? No. Bribed? Most probably.

Orban was there in person when the decision was made. NO WAY he would have taken a chance on that. If he was there, it's because he knew the result in advance.

He has shown unparallelled willingness to "delegate" blame for anything unpopular, and to jump in the spotlight to claim ownership of every success regardless of who worked for it. He would not have risked to stand there while the games are handed to the other country. Impossible.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on July 23, 2013, 10:08:42 AM
Every time I see "Orban" I think of big guns. :)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on July 23, 2013, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Neil on July 23, 2013, 07:37:13 AM
Still, you can tell that whoever is running the swimming federation is asleep at the wheel.  With the exception of China, countries with fascist governments don't get to host things anymore.
Winter Games coming up in Russia. World Cups coming to Russia and Qatar.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on July 23, 2013, 01:47:10 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 23, 2013, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Neil on July 23, 2013, 07:37:13 AM
Still, you can tell that whoever is running the swimming federation is asleep at the wheel.  With the exception of China, countries with fascist governments don't get to host things anymore.
Winter Games coming up in Russia. World Cups coming to Russia and Qatar.
Russia is Russia (and therefore good behavior isn't expected from them), and Qatar is a monarchy.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 23, 2013, 02:58:25 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 23, 2013, 08:01:07 AM
Asleep? No. Bribed? Most probably.

Orban was there in person when the decision was made. NO WAY he would have taken a chance on that. If he was there, it's because he knew the result in advance.

He has shown unparallelled willingness to "delegate" blame for anything unpopular, and to jump in the spotlight to claim ownership of every success regardless of who worked for it. He would not have risked to stand there while the games are handed to the other country. Impossible.

This is actually rather funny. I'm sure the swimming guys couldn't believe someone wanted to bribe them, if that is what happened.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 08, 2013, 08:45:26 AM
Austrian radio reported on the efforts of Orban to keep Hungarian agricultural land in Hungarian hands. Basically, EU citizens are allowed to buy land anywhere in the EU. New members get a grace period of 10 years, though.

That time is nearly up for Hungary.

They're introducing a law that allows EU citizens to buy land if they can show an agricultural degree that is recognized by Hungary (to be defined) or have worked as self-employed farmer in Hungary for at least three years (which will be nigh impossible for newcomers).

If someone puts up their land for sale, the state gets the option for purchase first. Then the neighbor. Then other farmers in the town. Then farmers in a 20km radius.

The Austrian agricultural envoy to the EU says it may look like it follows the EU regulations, but effectively doesn't. At the same time he pointed at all the Hungarian workers and employees in Austria, asking what it would be like if a Hungarian nurse would only get a work permit, if she could prove three years prior experience as nurse in an Austrian hospital.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 10, 2013, 05:38:43 AM
Although I have been living in the UK for over a month now, I just can`t stop reading up on the stuff back home.

Besides the major oligarch of the country seemingly quietly mobilising his resources against the government after getting into a fight over some agricultural lands with Orban`s second in command, everything has been business as usual: a slow slip into mini-Russia.

lol, the recent wedding of Orban`s daughter was hilarious though. His father made it into a tabloid event, and then of course him and his minions were outraged on the "invasion of privacy" when the press found out that there had been extensive road maintenance works done days before the marriage, including the rural road leading to the place where they held the party, which happened to be one of the officially worst-kept roads of the country. Until two days before the wedding, that is, when a horde of workers and machinery descended upon it and fixed it up.

Because you see it had to be a "traditional" village wedding and all. I AM SURE it is just a coincidence that two weeks before the announcement of the wedding and it being a traditional one, Ms. Orban was filmed dancing at a popular festival (on the right of the sandwich I think, other girl is her sister): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZb4CoDPSo8


Anyways, yesterday Chair of Parliament told in an interview that he would like Parliament to grant the possibility for the government to govern by decrees, as all that bill-voting is tedious and "was introduced in fear of dictatorship" but "that danger has passed".

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 10, 2013, 07:50:46 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 10, 2013, 05:38:43 AM
Although I have been living in the UK for over a month now, I just can`t stop reading up on the stuff back home.

Huzzah!
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 20, 2013, 11:41:40 AM
How fucking disgusting.

In NE Hungary, there is apparently a big, military barracks-like institution for the mentally impaired (if that`s the correct translation), with horrible living conditions.
A lot of them would be able to take care of him/herself alone or with minimal supervision.

The country got a shitload of EU money to improve conditions for them, and as a result they wanted to build 40 homes for the ones who can be moved out of the institution, a small town nearby.

Helped with their (FIDESZ) MP, they have been working hard on preventing that, and now all nearby towns and villages are gathering petitions from their residents -and succeeding magnificently- in an effort to stop the poor sobs be moved to their towns.

The organization of parents with mentally impaired children is trying to convince people on behalf of the patients of the institution, but they are growing desperate in face of all the scare and ignorant fearmongering.

A fucking disgrace.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on September 20, 2013, 12:07:16 PM
NIMBY is a powerfull force.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Barrister on September 20, 2013, 12:49:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 20, 2013, 11:41:40 AM
How fucking disgusting.

In NE Hungary, there is apparently a big, military barracks-like institution for the mentally impaired (if that`s the correct translation), with horrible living conditions.
A lot of them would be able to take care of him/herself alone or with minimal supervision.

The country got a shitload of EU money to improve conditions for them, and as a result they wanted to build 40 homes for the ones who can be moved out of the institution, a small town nearby.

Helped with their (FIDESZ) MP, they have been working hard on preventing that, and now all nearby towns and villages are gathering petitions from their residents -and succeeding magnificently- in an effort to stop the poor sobs be moved to their towns.

The organization of parents with mentally impaired children is trying to convince people on behalf of the patients of the institution, but they are growing desperate in face of all the scare and ignorant fearmongering.

A fucking disgrace.

To be fair Tamas that story could (and does) happen in any number of western countries.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on September 20, 2013, 12:51:08 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 20, 2013, 11:41:40 AM
How fucking disgusting.

In NE Hungary, there is apparently a big, military barracks-like institution for the mentally impaired (if that`s the correct translation), with horrible living conditions.
A lot of them would be able to take care of him/herself alone or with minimal supervision.

The country got a shitload of EU money to improve conditions for them, and as a result they wanted to build 40 homes for the ones who can be moved out of the institution, a small town nearby.

Helped with their (FIDESZ) MP, they have been working hard on preventing that, and now all nearby towns and villages are gathering petitions from their residents -and succeeding magnificently- in an effort to stop the poor sobs be moved to their towns.

The organization of parents with mentally impaired children is trying to convince people on behalf of the patients of the institution, but they are growing desperate in face of all the scare and ignorant fearmongering.

A fucking disgrace.

Yes, I see it now. Property values collapsing is a good thing. How silly of the locals not to embrace it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on October 01, 2013, 10:18:21 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24347061#FBM291485

QuoteHungarian homeless law bans sleeping rough

The Hungarian parliament has passed a law which aims to clear several thousand homeless people off the streets of Budapest and other towns.

The government says the law is designed to help the homeless, and that there are enough places in homeless shelters.

But critics deny that, and say the law criminalises the homeless, who could face community work, fines or even imprisonment.

The law is due to come into force next week.

Those caught sleeping rough in urban areas can be sentenced to community service or a fine, if they either refuse to move on when requested to, or are caught in the same area again.

Those who live in shacks in the woods are especially alarmed by one provision in the new law, which allows for those who build such structures without permission to be imprisoned.
'Enough places'

Several hundred protesters gathered outside parliament when the law was passed on Monday evening.

"Homeless people have always been harassed by the authorities," says Tessa Udvarhelyi, an activist of The City Belongs to Everyone, a civic group in Budapest.

"The difference is that this government... is codifying the fact that homeless people are stigmatised, harassed and criminalised."

She estimates that 10,000 people live on the streets of the capital, or in shacks they have built for themselves in the forests on the outskirts.

There are just under 6,000 places in hostels in the Hungarian capital. She says they are overflowing, especially in winter, leaving another 4,000 people to fend for themselves.

These figures are fiercely disputed by the government.

"There are plenty of places for daytime, and for night-time shelter," says Ferenc Kumin, a spokesman for the right-wing government of Prime Minister Viktor Orban.

"We believe that [they are] almost 100% covered."

The question is becoming especially acute as an Indian summer turns into the first cold days of autumn.
New hostels

The new law is actually an amendment to a 2012 law on "misdemeanours", which came into force but was then struck down by the Constitutional Court, only to be embedded in an amendment to the constitution passed in March this year.

The Fidesz party came to power on a tough "law and order" ticket, and some local Fidesz mayors in the capital have led the way in proposing a crackdown on the homeless.

The government has introduced a number of measures, from new hostels to a "heated streets" project, designed for the drunk and mentally disturbed who might not get a place in a normal shelter. There are also some places for couples and those with children.

But the demonstrators complain that most hostels offer little privacy, and take them away from the survival networks they build up in certain parts of the city - people who regularly bring them food, or money.

"I live in a tent in the outskirts. All I ask, from this or any government, is the chance to live decently," said Betti Fetter, 50, who has lived on the streets of Budapest for 23 years.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on October 01, 2013, 12:11:06 PM
Clean teh streets!!!111
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on November 30, 2013, 04:26:33 AM
I saw this on Hungarian public opinion, made me think of this thread :lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaPXleLCEAAdWNp.png:large)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on November 30, 2013, 05:21:32 PM
Jew lovers.  :glare:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on December 04, 2013, 07:59:25 PM
It's disconcerting that so many Hungarians would accept Chinese spies into their midst.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2014, 10:45:20 AM
Two important happenings today!


1) I don`t want to spend too much time with describing the history of the opposition in recent years, but let me try to summarize. Note the characters, so you can keep track:

-2004-2009, 2006 election winner Socialist PM Gyurcsany is Evil Incarnate according to most people. After a brief power struggle after 2010, he is quite happy to leave the Socialist Party and form his own with some other Socialist MPs joining him
-after this, president of the Socialist party, young nobody Mesterhazy is safe in his power. Socialist Party (strongest opposition party) continues to survive on a loyalist electorate

-most people refuse to vote on either FIDESZ or Socialists. Two popular movements start to form in 2011 and 2012. New and inexperienced, but they seemed to gain traction, on a largely moderate left platform. Worth noting that only mass support to them comes in cases where the government cuts silly overspending, like ridicoulous police and fireman pension amounts.

-October 23 2012, these two new formations sort of unite, and got lead by Bajnai, PM of 2009-2010. He is an established successful businessman, and was basically a successful technocrat PM as well, but he had no other task then to keep to IMF regulations we had in exchange of saving us from bankruptcy. At any rate, in front of about 100k people, he declares a program of uniting everyone near the middle, left or right, to save Hungarian democracy. He vows to talk to all opposition parties, to form a common platform by 2014, since FIDESZ has changed the election law, seriously bending the table in their own favour. It is cooperation or defeat for others.
Much rejoicing.

-Intense character-killing campaign against Bajnai begins basically immediately by FIDESZ (sponsored by state money and aided by the state TVs of course), mostly by trying to make the "Bajnia=Gyurcsany puppet" argument

-Bajnai offers negotiations to LMP, the greens, only opposition party in Parlaiment beside MSZP, Gyurcsany`s, and neo-Nazi Jobbik. This causes a MAJOR divide within LMP. The bigger half of the party wants to go at the elections alone, the rest sees that it is impossible and serves only Orban. The latter quit LMP and join Bajnai. Worth noting that IIRC the leader of LMP, Schiffer, was at one time, an Orban protégée of sorts.

-After the meltdown with LMP, Bajnai is quickly out of options, and his total lack of charisma and force of character becomes apparent. Due to lack of any other viable options other than throwing in the towel, he starts negotiations with the Socialists. His formation`s popularity plummets in the polls.

-Much of 2013 is spent with Bajnai and Mesterhazy (remember him? the prez of the Socialist party) arguing over who should be Prime Minister candidate for their alliance which hadn't been made at the time. It is a grossly hideous affair, with the two formations biting at each other`s throats for spoils they are pretty far from having any chance of winning, since according to polls, FIDESZ has a comfortable lead

-They make a weird half-assed deal in mid-2013, name of PM candidate undecided. Bajnai`s formation continues its slide to oblivion, while Gyurcsany, BY FAR the most talented and charismatic politican of the lot, reactivates himself and starts campaigning heavily. Result? His party overtakes Bajnai`s by late last year in the polls.

-Bajnai facing potential disaster, and the Socialists smelling blood, and danger at the same time, they make a new deal, and draw in Gyurcsany as well.

Their final deal has just been made. Basically it is Bajnai`s almost unconditional surrender. His formation gives up a lot of districts to Gyurcsany`s party, while the Socialists do so with none. Socialist prez Mesterhazy is the PM candidate (why not? He has not done anything in his life apart from being dragged from a box to be the party`s face for the 2010 beating they were sure to have). For bonus, Eternal Political Survival Worm, social-liberal Gabor Fodor is also taken in to the deal for some reason, with his recently formed "Liberal Party", which is so unpopular and unexisting, that it fails to register in polls.

So at the end, Bajnai`s movement to rid the left of the dinosaurs who has plagued it since a decade has been chewed up and eaten by said dinosaurs. FIDESZ`s victory in such a setup is assured.

2) Orban went to Moscow suddenly today, and signed a GENORMOUS deal with Putin and Russian nuclear building company Roszatom to double the size of the Hungarian nuclear plant. Expanding the plant is a good idea, but it is the biggest ever investment in Hungarian history, entirely funded by a massive loan given by Roszatom. The entire deal, although not unexpected, was closed in quite the secrecy, so as of this moment it is uncertain just how much of a Russian vassal we have become.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 14, 2014, 12:02:02 PM
:w00t:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2014, 12:24:43 PM
The deal with the Russians also mentions the imminent signing of a new contract on our Russian gas purchases, so odds are that Putin is buying Hungary in exchange of letting Orban continue campaigning with decreasing utility fees (central, as in fact, only, element of their election campaign as of yet), Ukraine-style.

Also in the deal Hungary has renewed it`s commitment to uphold the 2008 deal regarding the Russian gas pipe project, Southern Stream or something like that. The 2008 deal, by the way, was very heavily attacked by Orban at the time (he was the opposition`s leader), terming it a "coup" and a "sellout" of Hungary to Russia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 14, 2014, 12:28:55 PM
Well you ARE part of the Eastern Bloc. So it makes sense that you are ruled from Moscow.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 14, 2014, 12:42:28 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 14, 2014, 12:28:55 PM
Well you ARE part of the Eastern Bloc. So it makes sense that you are ruled from Moscow.

I will not be, if I can do anything about it. Screw that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 17, 2014, 06:41:25 AM
not too long ago, the government has decided on forming a kind of historical institute dedicated to researching and maintaining a "proper historical picture" about our nation`s history.

The freshly appointed leader of this new institution had some views to share, in order to explain what their job is:

in his opinion it is important to declare things like:

-white terror in the 1920s was a reaction to something, and had only a few hundred victims instead of the thousands claimed

-the members of the communist party in Hungary in the 1920-40s were member of the international communist organization, as such they were foreign spies and so their treatment (prison, execution, white terroring etc), was legal and prudent

-the Hungarian jews only started to suffer big losses after the German occupation of Hungary in 1944. In his opinion, the first deportation from Hungary which happened in 1941 were merely "according to alien law" ("idegenrendeszet" is like the arm of law dealing with illegal aliens, I guess alien law is the best translation).

:wacko:

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Agelastus on January 17, 2014, 09:51:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 17, 2014, 06:41:25 AM
-the Hungarian jews only started to suffer big losses after the German occupation of Hungary in 1944. In his opinion, the first deportation from Hungary which happened in 1941 were merely "according to alien law" ("idegenrendeszet" is like the arm of law dealing with illegal aliens, I guess alien law is the best translation).

I must be missing something here; that's the standard western narrative of Hungary during the Holocaust - that Horthy refused to allow Jewish deportations until Germany's military occupation of Hungary so that the vast majority of Hungary's jews were still alive in the Spring of 1944.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on January 20, 2014, 05:13:42 AM
Quote from: Agelastus on January 17, 2014, 09:51:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 17, 2014, 06:41:25 AM
-the Hungarian jews only started to suffer big losses after the German occupation of Hungary in 1944. In his opinion, the first deportation from Hungary which happened in 1941 were merely "according to alien law" ("idegenrendeszet" is like the arm of law dealing with illegal aliens, I guess alien law is the best translation).

I must be missing something here; that's the standard western narrative of Hungary during the Holocaust - that Horthy refused to allow Jewish deportations until Germany's military occupation of Hungary so that the vast majority of Hungary's jews were still alive in the Spring of 1944.

Well, that referenced 1941 incident was an exception to that, and the scandal (well, nobody cared, so there wasn`t any) was that this guy referenced the deportation of Hungarian citizens as an issue related to alien law. Ergo in his mind Jewish Hungarians are not Hungarians.

At any rate, there had been "jew laws" in effect from either the late 20s or mid 30s, I cannot remember, highly discriminating them in all areas of life.
"Labour Duty" units made of jews and political prisoners were constant accompaniers of the army units since `41 as I recall, used for various tasks, from building stuff, digging trenches, and clearing minefields.

So painting the Horthy era as some Jewish sanctum is quite overstretching it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on January 20, 2014, 12:44:19 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on January 17, 2014, 09:51:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 17, 2014, 06:41:25 AM
-the Hungarian jews only started to suffer big losses after the German occupation of Hungary in 1944. In his opinion, the first deportation from Hungary which happened in 1941 were merely "according to alien law" ("idegenrendeszet" is like the arm of law dealing with illegal aliens, I guess alien law is the best translation).

I must be missing something here; that's the standard western narrative of Hungary during the Holocaust - that Horthy refused to allow Jewish deportations until Germany's military occupation of Hungary so that the vast majority of Hungary's jews were still alive in the Spring of 1944.

While true, my standard western narrative mentioned thousands of Jews dying from forced labor under Horthy's regime.

Granted compared to the Nazis they seem soft and cuddly but on an absolute sense enslaving and working people to death is not exactly admirable.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 20, 2014, 04:00:41 PM
The Austrian agricultural minister is pissed off. Hungary wants to introduce new legislation that will make it very difficult for foreigners to buy agricultural land in Hungary (- IIRC, if agricultural land goes up for sale, the first right of purchase is for other local Hungarian) farmers, then local communes, then the state, then (theoretically) foreigners.

Under certain rules, foreigners who bought/leased land between 1994 and 2001 could lose the rights to it. There are 200 Austrian farmers who have the rights to 200k hectare land in Hungary, obtained after 1994. During the time (Tamas, correct me if wrong) Hungary was looking for foreign investors to boost the agricultural output.

The Austrian minister wants to discuss the issue with his Hungarian colleague, but he keeps brushing him off. "It's a Hungarian matter, that will be dealt with by Hungary." Besides, he doesn't want to talk to someone who keeps insulting Hungary (the minister has been in office for a few weeks only, and I could find nothing about the supposed "insults".)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 20, 2014, 04:07:21 PM
Austria should send a corps into Hungary to protect the interests of Austrian citizens.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on January 20, 2014, 04:09:17 PM
The thing is that the Hungarian government that a lot of the contracts were designed to get around the "don't sell to foreigners" clause in the laws - by granting a life long lease with up front payment.

However, the Hungarian constitutional court has ruled them legal (or so Austrian media say).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on January 20, 2014, 04:18:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 20, 2014, 04:09:17 PM

However, the Hungarian constitutional court has ruled them legal

Which means they are worse than Hitler.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on January 20, 2014, 04:38:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 20, 2014, 04:18:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 20, 2014, 04:09:17 PM

However, the Hungarian constitutional court has ruled them legal

Which means they are worse than Hitler.

Is The Brain paving the way for a Habsburg-led Austrian Anschluss with Hungary ?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on February 04, 2014, 05:37:52 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnonprophet.blog.hu%2Fmedia%2Fpostimage%2Fvtyaqkp_1362293848.jpg&hash=60bba1b4eace4f05a1a48e3590b526e5c4af7110)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 06:08:34 AM
 :rolleyes:



Meanwhile, Parliament will vote on the massive agreement with Russia on building our new nucular power plant. The details of the financial analysis of the deal have been made state secret for 10 years, so the MPs can`t actually know what they are agreeing to, but of course they will agree to it none the less.

The actual bill that takes care of this basically hints at a blank cheque handed to Putin - we will commit ourselves while declaredly having no established terms on the insane loan granted by Russia, or the price of the power plant. One of the "big things" about the deal was that the Russians would also take care of the nuclear waste, well it turns out they will storage it for 20 years but according to the wording of the  bill, they will be able to just ship it back to us after that and we will have to take it back.
Also, a "Russian Selected Comity" whatever that means, will need to agree to the price of the electricity sold by the power plant.

In other words, Orban is bending down for the soap for Putin and the public has no idea whatsoever on why exactly.

My guess is that he is looking for a protector and supporter for the time he leaves the EU around 2010 or so.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Neil on February 04, 2014, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 06:08:34 AM
My guess is that he is looking for a protector and supporter for the time he leaves the EU around 2010 or so.
Hungary can into time travel?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on February 04, 2014, 09:03:51 AM
But only backwards.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 09:07:51 AM
:D I keep thinking its 2004. I meant 2020, obviously
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on February 04, 2014, 09:46:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 06:08:34 AM
My guess is that he is looking for a protector and supporter for the time he leaves the EU around 2010 or so.

We will all remember this time as the era Hungary almost joined the Western world.  Will this mean he can close his borders and stop Tamas from trying to leave the country?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 09:54:52 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 04, 2014, 09:46:12 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 04, 2014, 06:08:34 AM
My guess is that he is looking for a protector and supporter for the time he leaves the EU around 2010 or so.
Will this mean he can close his borders and stop Tamas from trying to leave the country?

Too late for that, unless he closes them while I happen to be back visiting my family  :cool:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on March 12, 2014, 10:57:41 AM
Previous Minister of Finance, and current prez of the Central Bank, Gyorgy Matolcsy is quite the character, his ineptitude and total cluelessness has been known, but two particular new details about it have been made public by the just-released book written by his former cabinet chief.

The lady spent 355 pages praising the genius of this man. He also spotted the genius in two particular things:

-Matolcsy probably actually believes in the global conspiracy theory against Hungary. He has read about it from a popular pulp fiction novel released in 2011. He was so enticed by the revelations in the book that he read it in one night and then forwarded the relevant evidences to PM Orban

-In 2011 there was a time where Hungary could not sell bonds to save the country's life, and the collapse of the currency was imminent. Matolcsy, still Finance Minister, secretly started negotiation with the IMF on calling them back to the country. It was to be announced publicly a couple of days later
But, on the very same day, he had a formal lunch with two representatives from Goldman Sachs.
The writer delightfully writes, that Matolcsy casually mentioned to the GS reps that he has just signalled the IMF for help (which was surely to make Hungary avoid imminent bankruptcy). "the forks stopped in the hands of the Goldman Sachs people" and they excused themselves to leave for the restroom.

Actually Matolcsy interpreted this as the shock and awe and fear of the international conspirators, having been exposed to his genius.  :lol: Needless to say probably the guys were on the phone to buy Hungarian currency. And yes, two days later there was a significant raise in the EUR HUF exchange rate after the IMF deal went public.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on March 12, 2014, 03:41:01 PM
There is no global conspiracy against Hungary.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on March 12, 2014, 03:45:46 PM
I guess it's not insider trading when you get the information from a head of state?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 01, 2014, 03:19:28 AM
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304157204579471531530313704

QuoteHungary's Controversial Leader Rallies Support Before Election

PM Viktor Orban Expected to Win Another Term Next Weekend

BUDAPEST—A week before parliamentary elections, Hungary's controversial leader defended his track record saying the country became "a racing car" under his leadership of four years.

Prime Minister Viktor Orban, who is expected to win another term next weekend, during his tenure implemented measures that had frequently put him on a collision course with the European Union and drawn Hungary closer to Russia.

After winning the 2010 elections in a landslide, Mr. Orban's government has introduced sweeping changes, giving the country a new constitution, Civil Code and election law.

To avoid potentially unpopular fiscal austerity measures, Hungary levied special taxes on some sectors of the economy dominated by foreign firms and raised taxes on banks to the highest level in the European Union. Mr. Orban parted with the International Monetary Fund soon after his election victory due to a difference in economic preferences.

According to the latest polls, Mr. Orban's center-right Fidesz party will likely be supported by 38%-40% of voters, with 15%-19% backing an alliance of major leftist opposition parties and 12%-16% supporting the far-right Jobbik party.

Fidesz has turned Hungary into "a fast and daring racing car from an old banger with a punctured wheel," said Mr. Orban, whom political analysts often term as populist.

Fidesz has "expanded equitable burden-sharing onto banks and multinational companies,...and has successfully fought with the Goliaths of the financial world," Mr. Orban told a cheering crowd in Budapest's Heroes' Square.

At this same spot in 1989, Mr. Orban demanded that Russian troops stationing in Hungary return home in a speech that propelled him onto the political scene .

Mr. Orban added Fidesz had "freed Hungary from the helping embrace of the International Monetary Fund, returned the country to its Christian roots, and united the nation scattered around the world."

Speaking at a rally of 450,000 supporters, according to the Interior Ministry, Mr. Orban asked voters this weekend to grant him four more years at the country's helm.

The Hungarian leader was expected to win the election in 2002 and Fidesz won the first round of voting. But the party lost the election in the final round to its biggest opposition, the Socialists.

The second round of voting has since been eliminated through Fidesz's recent revamp of election law.

Should it win the election next weekend, Fidesz has said it would maintain its high taxes on certain firms and get at least half of the country's bank sector, dominated by foreign firms, back in Hungarian hands. It has cut utility prices for households at the cost of the privately-owned suppliers and wants to reduce them for companies as well. It has been renationalizing energy companies and plans to make the utilities sector nonprofit.

At a rally of 50,000 supporters in downtown Budapest on Sunday, a coalition of the biggest leftist opposition parties called upon their supporters and the large number of those who are yet undecided to vote for them.

Should they win, they said they will reestablish checks and balances, promote press freedom, strengthen ties with the European Union, establish new jobs and attract foreign direct investment for economic growth, the coalition's leaders pledged.

"We will bring back the Hungarian Republic," said Attila Mesterházy, head of the Socialist party and the prime ministerial candidate of the election coalition, referring to the Fidesz government's change of the name of the country to Hungary from the Hungarian Republic.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 09:14:12 AM
Hey, If they get throw out of the EU does that mean Tamas has to go back where he came from?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 01, 2014, 09:23:19 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 09:14:12 AM
Hey, If they get throw out of the EU does that mean Tamas has to go back where he came from?

They get tossed and thousands of Hungarians lose their jobs throughout Europe and are forced to return to Hungary all at the same time.  I bet that wouldn't be ugly at all.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on April 01, 2014, 09:26:04 AM
Hey, wasn't that a Larry Bond novel? Cauldron?

France tosses the foreigners out and starts shit.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Agelastus on April 01, 2014, 10:23:00 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 01, 2014, 09:26:04 AM
Hey, wasn't that a Larry Bond novel? Cauldron?

France tosses the foreigners out and starts shit.

Yep; an example in fiction of the "Let's invade Poland" option as a solution to Europe's problems.

Doesn't work in fiction any better than it does in real life.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:25:00 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 01, 2014, 09:26:04 AM
Hey, wasn't that a Larry Bond novel? Cauldron?

France tosses the foreigners out and starts shit.

Oh God, I have that book.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2014, 10:34:34 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 01, 2014, 09:23:19 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 09:14:12 AM
Hey, If they get throw out of the EU does that mean Tamas has to go back where he came from?

They get tossed and thousands of Hungarians lose their jobs throughout Europe and are forced to return to Hungary all at the same time.  I bet that wouldn't be ugly at all.

try hundreds of thousands.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2014, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?

we invade your basement instead.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 01, 2014, 12:06:52 PM
It's funny, a large part of the Austrian coverage focuses on ZOMG Jobbik Nazis on the rise.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 01, 2014, 12:21:17 PM
Quote from: Syt on April 01, 2014, 12:06:52 PM
It's funny, a large part of the Austrian coverage focuses on ZOMG Jobbik Nazis on the rise.

Are they worried Hungary will catch up to them? :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on April 01, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?

That's a dick thing to say, even by your standards.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 06:05:16 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 01, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?

That's a dick thing to say, even by your standards.

:rolleyes:  I think Tamas knows I don't actually want him deported.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Jacob on April 01, 2014, 06:42:07 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 06:05:16 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 01, 2014, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 01, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Is there some sort of downside to all this?

That's a dick thing to say, even by your standards.

:rolleyes:  I think Tamas knows I don't actually want him deported.

He does now :hug:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2014, 06:48:39 AM
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/04/business/international/the-village-stadium-a-symbol-of-power-for-hungarys-premier.html
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 08:19:28 AM
Your tax forints at work Tamas  :P
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 04, 2014, 09:21:32 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 08:19:28 AM
Your tax forints at work Tamas  :P

Yes. Not mine anymore though. :P

But it is so ridiculous: the stadium will have a capacity twice of the village's entire population, and it is literally in the backyard of the PM's house.

He should have at least built a pyramid then Hungary could have some extra tourist income.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on April 04, 2014, 09:22:22 AM
A beet pyramid.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 04, 2014, 09:26:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 04, 2014, 09:22:22 AM
A beet pyramid.

't would be unbeetable
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2014, 09:21:32 AM
Yes. Not mine anymore though. :P

You don't pay taxes on money earned abroad?  How un-American.

QuoteBut it is so ridiculous: the stadium will have a capacity twice of the village's entire population, and it is literally in the backyard of the PM's house.

He should have at least built a pyramid then Hungary could have some extra tourist income.

Remember when the Bosians were claiming they found pyramids when there was absolutely no evidence at all to suggest that and it was reported  everywhere as a genuine discovery?  You don't have to actually build them.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 05, 2014, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
You don't pay taxes on money earned abroad?  How un-American.
America's the only country in the world that does that (though I read the situation with the PRC and Eritrea's a bit confused and they might do it in theory).

QuoteRemember when the Bosians were claiming they found pyramids when there was absolutely no evidence at all to suggest that and it was reported  everywhere as a genuine discovery?  You don't have to actually build them.
The mad thing is the Bosnians still claim they are pyramids. They're still taking school trips there to learn about Bosnian heritage and pushing them as a tourist attraction :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on April 06, 2014, 06:16:05 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 05, 2014, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 04, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
You don't pay taxes on money earned abroad?  How un-American.
America's the only country in the world that does that (though I read the situation with the PRC and Eritrea's a bit confused and they might do it in theory).

QuoteRemember when the Bosians were claiming they found pyramids when there was absolutely no evidence at all to suggest that and it was reported  everywhere as a genuine discovery?  You don't have to actually build them.
The mad thing is the Bosnians still claim they are pyramids. They're still taking school trips there to learn about Bosnian heritage and pushing them as a tourist attraction :lol:

But... but... they were featured in Ancient Aliens! That must mean they are REAL (and were built by aliens).
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 07, 2014, 12:31:31 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26908404

QuoteHungary election: PM Viktor Orban declares victory

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has declared victory in Sunday's parliamentary election, winning a second consecutive term.

His centre-right Fidesz has polled 45%, with most of the votes counted.

A centre-left opposition alliance is trailing with 25%, while the far-right Jobbik party is credited with 21%.

The Hungarian left has never fully recovered from its heavy defeat in the 2010 ballot, in which Mr Orban swept to power with a two-thirds majority.

Sunday's election has been mainly fought over the state of the economy, correspondents say.

'We won'
"No doubt we have won," Mr Orban told supporters gathered in the capital, Budapest, late on Sunday evening.

"This was not just any odd victory. We have scored such a comprehensive victory, the significance of which we cannot yet fully grasp tonight."

He said the election results showed that Hungarians wanted to stay in the European Union, but with a strong national government.

"I'm going to work every day so that Hungary will be a wonderful place," he declared.

Fidesz is predicted to win around 135 of the 199 seats in parliament.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F74068000%2Fjpg%2F_74068283_74066635.jpg&hash=5d01dce736a60aa871b164e86ae38b7a60ca4cfd)
About 5m Hungarian voters cast ballots in the elections

It now also seems likely that Jobbik will become the second-largest party in parliament, the BBC's Nick Thorpe reports from Budapest.

Although the Socialist-led opposition is in second place, the five parties making up the alliance plan to form their own factions after the elections, our correspondent says.

Observers say Jobbik's adoption of a softer image has paid dividends, as a recent opinion poll found leader Gabor Vona to be the most popular opposition politician.

Fidesz supporters say Mr Orban's victory is a tribute to his leadership powers. But opposition parties have accused the prime minister throughout their campaign of undermining Hungarian democracy.

They have also accused Mr Orban of curtailing civil liberties and harming free speech.

Fidesz has insisted that reform was needed to complete the work of eradicating the legacy of Communism from the country, and reduce the budget deficit to below the EU's required 3% of gross domestic product.

Mr Orban's populist and Eurosceptic approach has proven popular with many Hungarians.

"The left had eight years to show what they can do, and they showed us all right," he told Hungarian media on Saturday.

"Why on Earth should we believe that the same people and the same parties would not do the same if given another opportunity?"

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Habbaku on April 07, 2014, 01:00:32 AM
Traditional Hungarian voting attire?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 04:28:46 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 07, 2014, 01:00:32 AM
Traditional Hungarian voting attire?

That's the photo getting into the word press and I bet those were the only two people in the country to go full retard for the voting.

FIDESZ's 2/3rd majority still hangs in the balance, depends on how two very closely tied (still counting) seats end up.

Russia Today declared Jobbik (the Nazi party) to be the biggest winner of the election, which is quite a stretch as they went well below of their own expectations (although they did get 100 000 new voters), and their leadership acted like they were on a funeral last night. Another proof that Jobbik is a Russian mole.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 07, 2014, 04:47:33 AM
Theory: the more a country enjoys 'traditional dress' the more likely it is to have a vibrant fascist party.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: celedhring on April 07, 2014, 05:37:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 07, 2014, 04:47:33 AM
Theory: the more a country enjoys 'traditional dress' the more likely it is to have a vibrant fascist party.

Bayern? Although fascism was big there in the 30s, I hear.

Still, love for traditional dress = nationalism that's strong enough to bypass ridicule, so there is some basis for your theory.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:41:37 AM
Quote from: celedhring on April 07, 2014, 05:37:57 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 07, 2014, 04:47:33 AM
Theory: the more a country enjoys 'traditional dress' the more likely it is to have a vibrant fascist party.

Bayern? Although fascism was big there in the 30s, I hear.

Still, love for traditional dress = nationalism that's strong enough to bypass any sense of ridicule, so there is some basis for your theory.

My non-Bavarian German acquaintances living in Bavaria mentioned how they were treated as outsider shits everywhere outside of Munich, so I think Sheilbh's point stands, in effect.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on April 07, 2014, 05:43:20 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi4.mirror.co.uk%2Fincoming%2Farticle677555.ece%2FALTERNATES%2Fs615b%2FHitler%2520looking%2520faintly%2520ridiculous%2520in%2520lederhosen%2520%26amp%3B%2520long%2520socks-677555&hash=f58b4c6ee14c8a427f4e9be607fb9023ecb8e975)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on April 07, 2014, 08:03:58 AM
Nice socks.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2014, 08:32:29 AM
I like the shirt tucked into the underwear.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Gups on April 07, 2014, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.

Video killed the radio star.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on April 07, 2014, 10:48:57 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.

That was the joke in Germany at the time.  Aryan type: blond like Hitler, slender like Goering and tall like Goebbels.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ancient Demon on April 07, 2014, 11:13:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.

I don't know, without the silly moustache he'd be reasonably good looking.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Sheilbh on April 07, 2014, 11:18:38 AM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on April 07, 2014, 11:13:25 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2014, 05:44:28 AM
What always puzzled me is how this guy, of all, managed to sell the whole Aryan race purity idea. He was short, brown-haired, and fugly.

I don't know, without the silly moustache he'd be reasonably good looking.
He's no Stalin:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2009%2F10%2F13%2Fworld%2Feurope%2F13lede_stalin.190.jpg&hash=419a031c0cabfc0fdca2665fb85b8dcaee84e8d0)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on May 02, 2014, 04:05:04 AM
Development of the ten countries that joined the EU in 2004. Hungary is now the poorest of the lot.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.static-economist.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Foriginal-size%2Fimages%2F2014%2F05%2Fblogs%2Fgraphic-detail%2F20140503_gdc831.png&hash=86e0f0f8ec6e62384d14f1ee4d4270261f5d139e)

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 12, 2014, 07:23:32 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/10/us-hungary-orban-idUSBREA4904X20140510

QuotePM Orban calls for autonomy for ethnic Hungarians beyond borders

(Reuters) - Hungary will stand up for its rights within the European Union and wants autonomy for ethnic Hungarians living beyond its borders in central Europe, including Ukraine, Prime Minister Viktor Orban said on Saturday.

Orban, who was formally endorsed by parliament as prime minister for a second consecutive term after last month's landslide election win, said ethnic Hungarians supported his policies to unite the nation "above the borders".

His previous government granted ethnic Hungarians in neighboring countries citizenship shortly after it took office in 2010, as part of his efforts to restore a battered sense of national pride.

Orban, a 50-year-old former dissident against Communist rule, has also clashed repeatedly with the European Union over his go-it-alone policies in the past four years.

"We regard the Hungarian issue a European issue," Orban said in his first speech to parliament since his reelection.

"Hungarians living in the Carpathian basin are entitled to have dual citizenship, are entitled to community rights, and also autonomy."

Many Hungarians today view the 1920 Treaty of Trianon as a national tragedy because it took away two-thirds of the country's territory and left millions of ethnic Hungarians living in what are now Romania, Slovakia, Ukraine and Serbia.

Orban has won popularity at home by reaching out to Hungarians outside the country's borders who were allowed to vote in the national election for the first time in April.

He has never suggested reuniting the lost territories with Hungary, but his activities have irked governments in some neighboring countries.

He said on Saturday the issue of ethnic Hungarians was especially topical due to the situation in neighboring Ukraine, where around 200,000 ethnic Hungarians live, who are entitled to Hungarian citizenship and also the right to self-administration.

"This is our clear expectation from the new Ukraine which is taking shape now," Orban said, adding the new administration enjoyed Hungary's support in its efforts to build a democratic Ukraine.

BRAVE THINKING

Orban pledged to continue the policies of his previous government and said these would be based on "open dialogue and brave thinking" when it comes to European affairs.

He said Hungary was and remained, beyond doubt, part of NATO and also the EU and his government regarded any program that called for an exit from the EU a dangerous extremity.

"But we are members of these alliances and not hostages," he said. "We want a Europe that respects its own roots, respects Christianity and also gives due respect to individual nations."

His words echoed his ruling Fidesz party's campaign ahead of European parliament elections later this month, with billboards featuring Orban's photo and saying: "Our message to Brussels: More respect to Hungarians."

Orban called for a radical cut in energy prices in the EU to improve competitiveness and said his government rejected policies that support immigration.

"We do not want policies that support immigration and masses of immigrants who cause unmanageable tensions, but we want support for families to have more children," he added.

(Reporting by Krisztina Than; Editing by Sophie Hares)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on May 12, 2014, 07:32:18 AM
That sounds kinda Putin lite.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on May 12, 2014, 09:05:03 AM
Great, Toledo is gonna get invaded. Packo's will be behind an iron curtain of stolen hubcaps, overturned wagons and bags of beets.

:(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 13, 2014, 11:50:09 AM
A Hungarian correspondent in Donetsk wrote that Ukrainians just have been made aware of Orban's quoted comments on "fighting for autonomy". He says that his (the correspondent's) status as revered symbol of the free world's attention has instantly changed to suspicious enemy and he had to spend a lot of effort explaining that he and a good portion of Hungarians are not, in fact, aiming to redraw borders by "fighting".

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 13, 2014, 11:54:20 AM
In the meantime, chairman of the Parliament, (FIDESZ hardliner) decided not to fly the EU flag on the Parliament, since it is not mandatory. But he will fly the flag of Szekelys (a still rock solid Hungarian enclave in the middle of Romania), to show support for autonomy efforts.

Oh, and one of his deputies is a Jobbik guy, who happens to be an ex-skinhead (the east European hard core neonazi kind)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 19, 2014, 10:06:36 AM
 :lol: An example of where social policy is at in Hungary ATM.

Miskolc is the major eastern city. It is also largely a shithole as I know. Lots and lots of unemployed poor people. Most of them are gypsies, at least the poorest ones.

The city has declared that every unemployed person who agrees to relocate from the city will be given grants to help them.

Next up, one of the nearby smaller cities declared that anyone who moves to them using grants from an other municipality will not be eligible for social aid there.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on May 19, 2014, 12:47:59 PM
A bag of beets to leave! Such a rich bounty.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on May 19, 2014, 01:23:06 PM
Reminds me of Chicago giving bus tickets to people willing  to move to Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 05:32:35 AM
And since Orban is so loud about "give respect to Hungary, Brussels" (that is actually their campaign slogan for the EU elections), plus flexing muscles against Ukraine, here is the breakdown of the Hungarian military:

Officers: 5690
NCOs: 8845
Civilian office workers: 6670
Soldiers: 7895

We have two armored units with 7-7 T72s (plus one command vehicle each). Those in the know claim about 4 tanks in each unit is fit for action.

We had a bunch of Hinds but we decided we don't need them anymore.

Plus a few Grippens which barely fly as it is too expensive, although they do NATO patrols over Hungary and Slovenia.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2014, 05:56:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 05:32:35 AM
And since Orban is so loud about "give respect to Hungary, Brussels" (that is actually their campaign slogan for the EU elections), plus flexing muscles against Ukraine, here is the breakdown of the Hungarian military:

Officers: 5690
NCOs: 8845
Civilian office workers: 6670
Soldiers: 7895


That soldier to officer ratio is some Land of Oz level bullshit  :lmfao:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on May 21, 2014, 06:10:11 AM
Austria is also cutting down its military expenses to the point where they run into trouble keeping their gear in usable shape, but they are still a bit away from such levels. :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on May 21, 2014, 06:11:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2014, 05:56:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 05:32:35 AM
And since Orban is so loud about "give respect to Hungary, Brussels" (that is actually their campaign slogan for the EU elections), plus flexing muscles against Ukraine, here is the breakdown of the Hungarian military:

Officers: 5690
NCOs: 8845
Civilian office workers: 6670
Soldiers: 7895


That soldier to officer ratio is some Land of Oz level bullshit  :lmfao:

Maybe they ended conscription, but then found they could only afford to employ small numbers of enlisted? I don't know just guessing.

Or would you rather they follow the US example and ramp up military spending and pay for it on the 'never, never' ?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 07:20:05 AM
Yeah I think this is the result of the usual solution over here (whoops, over there).

They got an overgrown socialist system (mass conscript military ran by professional officers), which they want to rationalise. However from the sheer size of the thing and it's influence on it's own fate, such a "rationalisation" can only go through if it avoid hurting anyone (so in this case abolishing conscription but leaving the officer corps meant to lead a huge ass army intact).

At the end, they end up with something that has all the disadvantages of the communist system, but none of the advantages of that, or the new system.

That's pretty much the story of the country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Grey Fox on May 21, 2014, 07:38:20 AM
Quote from: mongers on May 21, 2014, 06:11:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2014, 05:56:44 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 05:32:35 AM
And since Orban is so loud about "give respect to Hungary, Brussels" (that is actually their campaign slogan for the EU elections), plus flexing muscles against Ukraine, here is the breakdown of the Hungarian military:

Officers: 5690
NCOs: 8845
Civilian office workers: 6670
Soldiers: 7895


That soldier to officer ratio is some Land of Oz level bullshit  :lmfao:

Maybe they ended conscription, but then found they could only afford to employ small numbers of enlisted? I don't know just guessing.

Or would you rather they follow the US example and ramp up military spending and pay for it on the 'never, never' ?

China is paying for it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on May 21, 2014, 07:45:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 07:20:05 AM
Yeah I think this is the result of the usual solution over here (whoops, over there).

They got an overgrown socialist system (mass conscript military ran by professional officers), which they want to rationalise. However from the sheer size of the thing and it's influence on it's own fate, such a "rationalisation" can only go through if it avoid hurting anyone (so in this case abolishing conscription but leaving the officer corps meant to lead a huge ass army intact).

At the end, they end up with something that has all the disadvantages of the communist system, but none of the advantages of that, or the new system.

That's pretty much the story of the country.

Have you considered a new career as a Hungarian diplomat?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 03:47:05 AM
Orban and his followers keep telling that the West is in steep decline (according to the succession of official people in Hungary, it has been in steep decline in the last 60 years), but gotta' say these before-after pics of Hungarian EU MPs suggest otherwise:
http://index.hu/kulfold/2014/05/23/mit_csinal_az_emberbol_5_ev_hanyatlo_nyugat/
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on May 23, 2014, 09:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 07:20:05 AM
Yeah I think this is the result of the usual solution over here (whoops, over there).

They got an overgrown socialist system (mass conscript military ran by professional officers), which they want to rationalise. However from the sheer size of the thing and it's influence on it's own fate, such a "rationalisation" can only go through if it avoid hurting anyone (so in this case abolishing conscription but leaving the officer corps meant to lead a huge ass army intact).

At the end, they end up with something that has all the disadvantages of the communist system, but none of the advantages of that, or the new system.

That's pretty much the story of the country.

If Hungary really had some looming threat that created a need for a military, it wouldn't necessarily be a silly situation. Have a large officer corps with a skeleton staff, and that way when the military is needed the conscripts can be quickly replaced and you then have a massive army very quickly led by experienced professional officers.

Probably better than our system of just keeping a massive military of all ranks, and then looking for places to use it.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Ed Anger on May 23, 2014, 09:04:45 AM
Like invading Romania.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on May 23, 2014, 09:40:26 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on May 23, 2014, 09:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2014, 07:20:05 AM
Yeah I think this is the result of the usual solution over here (whoops, over there).

They got an overgrown socialist system (mass conscript military ran by professional officers), which they want to rationalise. However from the sheer size of the thing and it's influence on it's own fate, such a "rationalisation" can only go through if it avoid hurting anyone (so in this case abolishing conscription but leaving the officer corps meant to lead a huge ass army intact).

At the end, they end up with something that has all the disadvantages of the communist system, but none of the advantages of that, or the new system.

That's pretty much the story of the country.

If Hungary really had some looming threat that created a need for a military, it wouldn't necessarily be a silly situation. Have a large officer corps with a skeleton staff, and that way when the military is needed the conscripts can be quickly replaced and you then have a massive army very quickly led by experienced professional officers.

Probably better than our system of just keeping a massive military of all ranks, and then looking for places to use it.

I have doubts about the actual ability of most of those 100% idle officers. We have a few hundred men around the world in various missions including Afghanistan, and they seem to be doing a good job, but that's just a tiny minority.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 26, 2014, 07:02:37 PM
http://derstandard.at/2000002352600/Ungarische-RechtsextremeFPOe-und-FN-sind-zionistische-Parteien (http://derstandard.at/2000002352600/Ungarische-RechtsextremeFPOe-und-FN-sind-zionistische-Parteien)

QuoteRechtsextreme Jobbik: FPÖ und FN sind "zionistische Parteien"

No need for extensive German skills for this one. FN and FPÖ are "zionist parties" (pro-israeli) according to the Hungarian extreme-right wing party Jobbik. Guess that settles the debate I had with Tamas about comparing Jobbik to FN. :)

PS : Before you go all Dieudonné/Soral/quenelle on me, I really don't think Jobbik meant pro-zionist in the sense of being extreme-right wing à la Liberman or even hard-Likud, Netanyahu and stuff.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Solmyr on June 27, 2014, 07:23:37 AM
So I assume re-establishment of Austria-Hungary is not on the cards?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2014, 08:24:15 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 26, 2014, 07:02:37 PM
PS : Before you go all Dieudonné/Soral/quenelle no me, I really don't think Jobbik meant pro-zionist in the sense of being extreme-right wing à la Liberman or even hard-Likud, Netanyahu and stuff.

Since when did anti-Semitism have anything to do with the faults of actual Jews?  I mean I am beyond exasperated with the idiocy of the religious Zionist nutcases in Israel but my God if I say anything besides they are the worst people in the world nutters freak out.  They are far from the worst people in their geographic region much less in the world.  I would rather live next to settlers under Israeli occupation than live in a lot of places in the Middle East.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on June 27, 2014, 08:31:44 AM
Hungarian far-rightism is a direct descendant of the WW2 era far-rightism due to various reasons, chief among them is that Hungary hasn't had muslim immigration en masse (next to nothing, really). So nothing triggering a "enemy of my enemy is a friend" stance for Israel/the jews.

But these parties are similar and play the same role in their respective countries. Just because they disagree on some of the targets of their idiocy, is hardly a proof against that.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Duque de Bragança on June 27, 2014, 08:43:39 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 27, 2014, 08:31:44 AM
Hungarian far-rightism is a direct descendant of the WW2 era far-rightism due to various reasons, chief among them is that Hungary hasn't had muslim immigration en masse (next to nothing, really). So nothing triggering a "enemy of my enemy is a friend" stance for Israel/the jews.

But these parties are similar and play the same role in their respective countries. Just because they disagree on some of the targets of their idiocy, is hardly a proof against that.

By this criterion, then they are still different since the FN role is to weaken the right-wing vote (Mitterrand manoeuvre) though it backfired recently. Besides, Jews/"Zionists" are hardly a mere detail in the French extreme right-wing descending from WWII. The extreme-right wing sourced from the Algerian war, perhaps.

As for the FPÖ being "zionist"  :lol:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2014, 08:51:33 AM
The French Extreme Right Wing descends from Boulangism, the anti-Dreyfusards, and l'Action française.  Though I guess the later two are pretty much the same thing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on June 27, 2014, 08:53:06 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 27, 2014, 08:43:39 AM
As for the FPÖ being "zionist"  :lol:

Their goal is the creation and maintenance of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East?  For such a goal pretty much achieved over 60 years ago it is amazing how many are still devoted to this cause.

I, personally, am an advocate for the creation of an internal combustion engine.  I have a huge international conspiracy to help me achieve this goal.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Larch on July 29, 2014, 06:01:28 AM
Hey Tamas, it seems that you made the right choice leaving Hungary.

QuoteOrban Says He Seeks to End Liberal Democracy in Hungary

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said he wants to abandon liberal democracy in favor of an "illiberal state," citing Russia and Turkey as examples.

The global financial crisis in 2008 showed that "liberal democratic states can't remain globally competitive," Orban said on July 26 at a retreat of ethnic Hungarian leaders in Baile Tusnad, Romania.

"I don't think that our European Union membership precludes us from building an illiberal new state based on national foundations," Orban said, according to the video of his speech on the government's website. He listed Russia, Turkey and China as examples of "successful" nations, "none of which is liberal and some of which aren't even democracies."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/orban-says-he-seeks-to-end-liberal-democracy-in-hungary.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/orban-says-he-seeks-to-end-liberal-democracy-in-hungary.html)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 06:02:56 AM
yep
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on July 29, 2014, 06:12:05 AM
Hungary. :mmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 06:14:37 AM
Quote from: The Brain on July 29, 2014, 06:12:05 AM
Hungary. :mmm:

It will be like Russia, except EU citizens can visit it without a visa!


For now.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 29, 2014, 06:27:52 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 29, 2014, 06:01:28 AM
He listed Russia, Turkey [...] as examples of "successful" nations

Good use of quotation marks. Nice way to aim low, too, in the potential vs. results department.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Norgy on July 29, 2014, 07:36:44 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 29, 2014, 06:01:28 AM
Hey Tamas, it seems that you made the right choice leaving Hungary.

QuoteOrban Says He Seeks to End Liberal Democracy in Hungary

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said he wants to abandon liberal democracy in favor of an "illiberal state," citing Russia and Turkey as examples.

The global financial crisis in 2008 showed that "liberal democratic states can't remain globally competitive," Orban said on July 26 at a retreat of ethnic Hungarian leaders in Baile Tusnad, Romania.

"I don't think that our European Union membership precludes us from building an illiberal new state based on national foundations," Orban said, according to the video of his speech on the government's website. He listed Russia, Turkey and China as examples of "successful" nations, "none of which is liberal and some of which aren't even democracies."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/orban-says-he-seeks-to-end-liberal-democracy-in-hungary.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/orban-says-he-seeks-to-end-liberal-democracy-in-hungary.html)

It's like Orban's just had a bukkake party with Putin, Erdogan and Xi Yinping.

Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 07:51:39 AM
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/29/5946115/hungarys-prime-minister-thinks-its-time-to-ditch-liberal-democracy
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Norgy on July 29, 2014, 07:57:45 AM
I'm sure he'll get the other, non-liberal brand instead, Tamas.  :hug:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 08:01:29 AM
Quote from: Norgy on July 29, 2014, 07:57:45 AM
I'm sure he'll get the other, non-liberal brand instead, Tamas.  :hug:

The (struggling and dying) opposition is trying to make a big deal out of this quotes of course, and the online world is in upheaval over it, but by and large the population seems utterly content/resigned to the fact that the democratically elected Prime Minister declares that he wants to ditch democracy.

Oh wait, no, the green party's leader, who always poses as the fresh modern alternative on the left, kind of agreed with him.
Then again he had some blurry ties to Orban's party before he rose out of nothingness to form this green party, and was instrumental in torpedoing any kind of across-the-board opposition alliance against Orban in this year's election, so maybe that is not so surprising.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 12:26:38 PM
Quote from: The Larch on July 29, 2014, 06:01:28 AM
QuoteHe listed Russia, Turkey and China as examples of “successful” nations, “none of which is liberal and some of which aren’t even democracies.”

Three of the more corrupt nations in the world.  I guess he knows how to take care of his peeps anyway.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 29, 2014, 12:30:39 PM
As a fun aside, the Turkish deputy PM suggested that women shouldn't be laughing in public, for it's immodest, and makes them less virtuous. Also, they shouldn't show their attractiveness. Instead they should read the Quran. And the guys, too.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 08:01:29 AM
Oh wait, no, the green party's leader, who always poses as the fresh modern alternative on the left, kind of agreed with him.
Then again he had some blurry ties to Orban's party before he rose out of nothingness to form this green party, and was instrumental in torpedoing any kind of across-the-board opposition alliance against Orban in this year's election, so maybe that is not so surprising.

Interesting.  The "sham party" thing is an old east bloc trick. 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 12:53:42 PM
It is amazing to me to see the Hungarians embracing the Russians.  I mean how much murder and oppression can those people take before they figure out that the Russians maybe are not their friends?  'Screw you Poland and the rest of you supposed 'friends' of ours.  We know a nation who has always been eager to save Hungary from liberalism.  Russia.  They did it in 1849 and they can do it again.'
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on July 29, 2014, 01:01:35 PM
And Angela Merkel is still in the EPP as a political ally of Orban. :(
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 29, 2014, 12:30:39 PM
As a fun aside, the Turkish deputy PM suggested that women shouldn't be laughing in public, for it's immodest, and makes them less virtuous. Also, they shouldn't show their attractiveness. Instead they should read the Quran. And the guys, too.

Ugh.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:08:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?

Well presumably you should continue to read it. Unless you somehow are gifted enough to understand it fully after one pass. :contract:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Zanza on July 29, 2014, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?
There are thousands of hadiths that could read after having finished the Quran.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?

I tried to read it a while back but gave up after a few pages.  Maybe it was a rough translation, but it all seemed a bit disjointed and rambling, and failed to keep my attention.  Maybe I should have sought out the equivalent of a children's illustrated bible like what they gave us in Sunday School.  With pretty pictures of The Prophet beating up his 12 year old wives & whatnot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?

I tried to read it a while back but gave up after a few pages.  Maybe it was a rough translation, but it all seemed a bit disjointed and rambling, and failed to keep my attention.  Maybe I should have sought out the equivalent of a children's illustrated bible like what they gave us in Sunday School.  With pretty pictures of The Prophet beating up his 12 year old wives & whatnot.

Yeah sounds like the problem there was you. :hug:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on July 29, 2014, 01:45:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
The Quran is only 6,000 versus.  I think I could get through it in a day or two.  What then?  Is there a sequel?

I tried to read it a while back but gave up after a few pages.  Maybe it was a rough translation, but it all seemed a bit disjointed and rambling, and failed to keep my attention.  Maybe I should have sought out the equivalent of a children's illustrated bible like what they gave us in Sunday School.  With pretty pictures of The Prophet beating up his 12 year old wives & whatnot.

I have read that there is an insame amount of literature on people trying to understand what the Quran actually meant to mean. As I understand the real literary meat are the hadiths, which are direct quotes from Mohammed who, in his eternal wisdom, talked about a big bunch of stuff, like how everyday matters should be settled in the society of Egypt several hundred years after his death, and the like.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 29, 2014, 01:45:08 PM
I think it used to be a ticket out of jail if you memorized the whole Quran.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 01:49:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Yeah sounds like the problem there was you. :hug:

I'll admit I was part of the problem.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Viking on July 29, 2014, 01:59:54 PM
From the Paradox forums

Quote from: Herbert West;17793582Yeah:(

The only reason I did not burn my passport is that I dont have any other.

If this guy gets re-election time to kick hungary out of the liberal western organizations of EU and NATO.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on July 29, 2014, 02:06:16 PM
Speaking of NATO, that's always something that gets me about Russian claims that NATO is expanding aggressively into the East: NATO doesn't pressure people into joining, people join voluntarily. Unlike the Russian sphere which involves a fair amount of bullying to do as Moscow says.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 02:06:48 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Yeah sounds like the problem there was you. :hug:

Could have been the translation.  Verse is notoriously hard to get right.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 02:08:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 02:06:48 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Yeah sounds like the problem there was you. :hug:

Could have been the translation.  Verse is notoriously hard to get right.

The rest of the post helped to indicate where his head was at - so even if that was the case...
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on July 29, 2014, 02:08:54 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 29, 2014, 02:06:16 PM
Speaking of NATO, that's always something that gets me about Russian claims that NATO is expanding aggressively into the East: NATO doesn't pressure people into joining, people join voluntarily. Unlike the Russian sphere which involves a fair amount of bullying to do as Moscow says.

Everything Russia says is a lie, and usually one so self-evidently untrue as to be hilarious.  The only sad thing, now as back in the old days, are all the idiots who give it any credence at all.  And man there are a lot.  How stupid can you be?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: alfred russel on July 29, 2014, 02:30:26 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 29, 2014, 01:59:54 PM
From the Paradox forums

Quote from: Herbert West;17793582Yeah:(

The only reason I did not burn my passport is that I dont have any other.

If this guy gets re-election time to kick hungary out of the liberal western organizations of EU and NATO.

That does seem to be a compelling reason not to burn the passport.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 02:48:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 02:08:08 PM
The rest of the post helped to indicate where his head was at - so even if that was the case...

Well, someone's all serious today.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: garbon on July 29, 2014, 02:59:55 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 29, 2014, 02:48:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 02:08:08 PM
The rest of the post helped to indicate where his head was at - so even if that was the case...

Well, someone's all serious today.

Not really.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 13, 2014, 04:23:07 AM
Is it normal for a NATO member country to be visited by a high ranked Chinese military officer who does talks with the defense ministry?  :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on August 16, 2014, 01:17:02 AM
Oh?

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/745284

QuoteHungary's arms supplies to Kiev violate Budapest's legal obligations - RF Foreign Ministry

MOSCOW, August 16 /ITAR-TASS/. Hungary's arms supplies to Kiev are violating Budapest's legal obligations in conventional arms exports, Russian Foreign Ministry said on Friday.

The comments followed reports in the Hungarian online newspaper Hidfo.Net which claimed the Hungarian Defense Ministry was using an "authorized agency" to deliver armored vehicles, including T-72 tanks, to Ukraine.

The Russian Foreign Ministry noted that arms exports, if such were taking place, were violating the EU common position, which obliges the EU states not to export products capable of causing or aggravating armed conflicts and see that a recipient country observes international humanitarian law.

Arms exports to Ukraine are also breaching the international Arms Trade Treaty (ATT), the Russian Foreign Ministry went on to say. The document forbids arms transfers to parties in conflict if there is a probability that the weapons can be used for committing genocide and crimes against humanity.

"We assume that in the light of Kiev's indisputable and fragrant violations of the rules of applying weapons in internal conflicts any additional comments would be unnecessary," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"We would like to ask our colleagues in the European Union one simple question: what was the purpose of pushing multilateral commitments in control over arms transfers so actively, if they are violating them so cynically?" the Russian Foreign Ministry said in conclusion.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 16, 2014, 01:18:59 AM
Uh oh. Trouble in the Putin-dise.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on August 21, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
Hey Tamas, I read recently an interview with a Polish poli sci expert (so: someone who potentially talks out of his ass) and he said that Hungary has whole areas/pockets of abject, "Burma-style" (his expression, not mine) poverty, and that got worse under Orban.

True or false?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 21, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 21, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
Hey Tamas, I read recently an interview with a Polish poli sci expert (so: someone who potentially talks out of his ass) and he said that Hungary has whole areas/pockets of abject, "Burma-style" (his expression, not mine) poverty, and that got worse under Orban.

True or false?

I am pretty sure its not Burma style but there are seriously poor areas of the country (north-east and east mostly) which are in a horribly hopeless situation compared to an EU country.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: KRonn on August 21, 2014, 10:48:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2014, 01:18:59 AM
Uh oh. Trouble in the Putin-dise.

Lol, and of course, no mention in that Russian article of the EU rules and laws that Putin is violating? 
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on August 28, 2014, 08:47:20 AM
Corruption is on a totally incredible rate.

Orban's previous finance minister, Gyorgy "Hungarians and Japanese are related because their newborns have red spots on their buttocks" Matolcsy has been Central Bank president for a while now.

Central Bank buying all kinds of super-expensive buildings and such has been common since then.

But the latest thing is...

The entire allocation for higher education in the Hungarian budget is about 197 billion forints. Divide by roughly 310 to get it in euros.

Now, apparently, the Central Bank has spent 200 billion forint of its own assets on 5, freshly created "education foundations" meant to educate finance professionals.
Yes, that is more than all the official higher education spending combined.

What makes it even more interesting is that the entire capital of the Central Bank is a bit more than 400 billion. So obviously they didn't spend it from there.

Which means they had to print money just for this purpose. Which means that with this they have increased the total monetary base of the country by 5% without notifying anyone or offering any explanation, except to finance their own extremely shady "foundations".

:huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 01, 2014, 07:47:26 AM
Brand new students' book (not sure which subject) for 8th grade (13-14 years olds):

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F444.hu%2Fassets%2F10603651_10202881145735338_1765460938321793039_n.jpg&hash=2dd98fcc0516778c30af426831826674f0d54712)


"Write under the picture what you think about where [what kind of settlement, village/town/city] these voters are voting and what social class they belong to!"


:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on September 01, 2014, 08:04:14 AM
Top left: Fucking hipsters.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 01, 2014, 06:28:08 PM
Bottom right, hottie soccer mom.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: mongers on September 01, 2014, 06:49:22 PM
Haven't the Russian tanks rolled already?  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 03, 2014, 06:00:47 AM
There is a hilariously pathetic contrast between the arrogant sweeping powerplays of the government in internal affairs, and the utter despise they are handled in the foreign arena.

They have been busy doing the "eastern opening" and sucking every bit of juice off Putin's cock, including working on stalling EU actions on the Ukraine business.

As part of this, they have been very vocal and aggressive on any kind of light criticism they get from within the EU, making sure to react immediately with stark words and whatnot (as if anyone cares). Heck, their EU election campaign had the slogan "We demand from Brussels: more respect for Hungarians!" (throwing a tantrum is indeed the surefire way to get some respect for yourself).

However, despite all of this, Hungary has been used by Russia to play up the "EU is helping Ukraine" angle. Using an obscure rightwing website sponsored by Russia (hard to find any other example why a supposedly Hungarian neo-Nazi website deals with almost nothing else than Russian news), they leaked the story of a trainload of Hungarian T-72s making it to Ukraine.

It seems to be false as the private investor buying them has supposedly sent them to the Czech Republic (Czechs do deny this though), but it is hilarious how, after being left out on the sun to rot by the very power they have been busy to bend over backwards, all the Hungarian foreign office has done is a single quiet denial. But when some Swedish nobody utters a single bad word about Orban, they are up in arms yelling.

Sad, so sad.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Martinus on September 03, 2014, 09:02:19 AM
This is exactly how the Kaczynski administration behaved in 2005-2007 (sans the sucking of Putin's cock, as they are too Russophobic for that). I'm afraid we may have it again next year if they win the general election. Only that I am not sure whose cock they will be sucking.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 11:48:06 AM
The Russian-style, slowly escalating attacks against civil organisations have reached a new chapter today, when a big police action descended upon one of the organisations receiving aid from the state of Norway (the whole casus belli against the civilians is that Norway refuses to pay these grants to the Hungarian state to be redistributed as they see fit. We are talking about maybe 20 million dollars here. In the argument over it, they have made Norway cancel 9 times as much grants payed to the Hungarian state for infrastructure projects).

The foundation concentrates on environment issues and gender inequality. The pretext for the police action is embezzlement, because they granted loans to organisations who have won money from them. Or something.

They have been in their office the whole day. 40 minutes ago the organisation's leader was detained, and reports come in that the police have also started searches at the homes of the employees.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkep.cdn.index.hu%2F1%2F0%2F676%2F6769%2F67696%2F6769630_1dcfb1ae952e4f0f2a5dc22b0624e535_wm.jpg&hash=286ef2192a5b4ede43a15cb88c721ef6c39242df)
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on September 08, 2014, 11:58:43 AM
To think that the EU put an embargo on Austria when Haider joined the government all those years ago.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 12:02:08 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 08, 2014, 11:58:43 AM
To think that the EU put an embargo on Austria when Haider joined the government all those years ago.

Orban is posing an increasing challenge to what the EU stands for. It is crazy how it is left unattended.

And the example WILL be followed in the region. The leftie Slovakian PM is already saying shit like his country's NATO membership is reminding him of the 1968 happenings.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: frunk on September 08, 2014, 12:09:35 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 12:02:08 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 08, 2014, 11:58:43 AM
To think that the EU put an embargo on Austria when Haider joined the government all those years ago.

Orban is posing an increasing challenge to what the EU stands for. It is crazy how it is left unattended.

And the example WILL be followed in the region. The leftie Slovakian PM is already saying shit like his country's NATO membership is reminding him of the 1968 happenings.

If the Slovakians really feel that overburdened please leave.  Idiot.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: The Brain on September 08, 2014, 01:00:23 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 12:02:08 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 08, 2014, 11:58:43 AM
To think that the EU put an embargo on Austria when Haider joined the government all those years ago.

Orban is posing an increasing challenge to what the EU stands for.


Bloated graft?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 04:48:56 PM
As it turns out the policemen were interested in data on the other 12 organisations receiving Norwegian grant money, they confiscated documents about that.

So, basically, since there was no legal way for the government to get to these private information, they sent in the police to grab it for them under a ridicoulous  pretence.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Syt on September 18, 2014, 06:19:55 AM
Austrian news quotes Hungarian news site Index that apparently there was a huge business with selling Hungarian passports for "Hungarians living abroad". Supposedly agents would do all the bureaucracy for the person interested in a sweet EU passport who never had to show up for anything in person (so they could even retain their original passport, something that Hungarian law forbids). ORF quotes the Index article as saying that a mayor in a small town signed off 200 applications in 20 minutes, receiving EUR 1000 for each.

The government reacts with outrage at Index, calling it a smear campaign by foreign intelligence services. They demand Index serves up proof of the allegations.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on September 22, 2014, 08:52:22 AM
Now the government is making a huge scandal out of the human rights ombudsman being "controlled by TASZ" (which is a human rights organisation). Based on what? The fact that one of his employees had a few e-mail exchanges with an employee of TASZ.

They are really going full Russia now. The EU being silent over this is ridiculous. Oh wait, they haven't been silent: on the issue of 50 riot police descending upon a civil organisation to gather some paperwork they never asked for before (I wrote about it here) was commented by the EU saying it is not about EU grant money (it is about Norwegian), so they can't do a thing.
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Valmy on September 22, 2014, 11:06:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 08, 2014, 12:02:08 PM
And the example WILL be followed in the region. The leftie Slovakian PM is already saying shit like his country's NATO membership is reminding him of the 1968 happenings.

WTF?  First we have Austrians calling USA a great Atheistic destroyer of Pious Christian Euroland and now this.  Is saying things so obviously insane that they just create confusion rather than offense being exported from Russia at an alarming rate or something?
Title: Re: Hungarian Politics
Post by: Tamas on