Hungarian Politics

[celedhring]

I kinda disagree. They unilaterally attempted to abolish the rule of law, effectively trampling on the rights of people like me. What happened in 2017 was far from being an inocuous political statement and it could have gone very, very ugly. I still have engrabbed in my mind the words of the Catalan minister of interior after the referendum: "nothing bad has to happen if the new status quo is accepted".

[The Larch]

Yeah, I don't think that you guys really grasp all the shit that went down during those days, it was definitely not a simple political declaration that can be judged aseptically.

In any case we can keep debating this in the Spanish politics thread rather than keep hijacking this one or Tamas will throw stale paprika all over us. 

[Tamas]

Damn right! 

[Tamas]

The new full rules of restrictions was supposed to be released today, and it has been, eventually. But as late as 4PM there was no official release of the doc.

Still though, it was spreading online. It was originally released on...a.. car parts webshop  For some reason them and some other mechanics got a copy. Don't ask why.

The recently well-going vaccine progress suffered a total collapse and chaos, revealing that there has been probably no up to date recording centrally of people who have been receiving shots.

It got so bad that Orban on his regular Friday radio "interview" admitted that it was botched up. I think this is the very first time he ever admitted to any sort of mistake.

It seems, as if, it is easier to gloriously fight and defeat imaginery enemies like migrants and Brussels. Going against something that actually exists is far harder.

[Tamas]

So I mentioned they wanted to do a "special" weekend round of vaccinations, getting done 74k at-risk under-60s using a new shipment of AZ vaccine.

This is how it unfolded up to now:

1. Thursday-ish people receive their SMS messages on being eligible for this and where to go to get their first dose during the weekend
2. Turns out a LOT of people who got messages have already had their first dose. A big number of them also was pointed to ridiculously far vaccination centres. My favourite example was a married couple both called up for the same day to two centres a 100kms apart.
3. Friday morning during his weekly radio appearance Orban admits it got messed up and that he is forming an "action group" to have it sorted. Also there's a number for people to call and report if they have any issues with the text message they got. But as it turns out he didn't have the number at hand so he told it'd be announced
4. Later the weekend program is officially cancelled, everyone received a cancellation text. Rest of Friday is spent by the opposition press (with quite some glee) trying to find out from various sources just what this elusive phone number is, but nobody says
5. Saturday morning reports appear that just in case somebody ignored their cancellation texts, the vaccination centres (by which I mean hospitals) ARE standing ready to receive people. Some people who though why not give these hospitals a call and are told yeah sure they can get their cancelled shots, some just turn up and receive it. Later in the day it is officially confirmed that anyone who goes to their cancelled appointments WILL get their jabs.

I mean, come on. 

Was just reading a quite passionately fed-up editorial about this whole thing and the larger context of how the regime is just inept every time there's an actual challenge to face. A nice summary of what I have been saying for quite a while:

"Orban is incapable of leading a country. What he is doing instead, is leading a crime organisation. They have taken control of all strategic points of the country, effectively disbanded the Hungarian state, and replaced it with their own people who are systematically pillaging public funds and destroying anything that are not directly beneficial to their interests. When it comes to a typical task a functioning state is supposed to be handling, they prove to be incapable of doing it."

[The Larch]

Not strictly having to do with Hungary, but today I read in the press here an interesting article about how the PPE kicking out Fidesz can make it lose its leadership of European politics and also extend to other European political families with strained relationships with some of its members (specific mentions are the Czech liberals and the Romanian, Bulgarian, Slovakian and Maltese socialists) and how this can cause a realignment of the traditional political families in more geographic terms, with many representatives from the newer EU arrivals feeling closer to each other than to their western counterparts, and how Orban could, theoretically, serve as a catalist for the formation of a new European illiberal/authoritarian political grouping.

Any thoughts on this?

[Tamas]

I think it's hard to tell at this point.

Poland and Hungary are natural allies, at least their governments are. However, I'd imagine Slovakia and the Czechs would not be keen to commit to any destructive asshatery past empty platitudes of Visegrad cooperation. There were recent attempts to turn the Visegrad Group into an actual powerblock within the EU but IIRC it failed miserably.

Then again, Slovenia is already there as a proto-Poland, working hard to imitate the Hungarian example, I wouldn't put it past other East Euro members to have an authoritarian switch.

[The Larch]

I wouldn't say that the Visegrad group has failed to become a powerblock within the EU. Sure, its members might not be willing to become a permanent block on the EU's funcioning and some of its members might be more pragmatic, but they have made it quite visible that there's a bloc within the EU that is opposed to what were, until recently, the common ground ideas of the EU, and that the EU should take more into account the political sensibilities of CEE countries.

[Sheilbh]

Not strictly having to do with Hungary, but today I read in the press here an interesting article about how the PPE kicking out Fidesz can make it lose its leadership of European politics and also extend to other European political families with strained relationships with some of its members (specific mentions are the Czech liberals and the Romanian, Bulgarian, Slovakian and Maltese socialists) and how this can cause a realignment of the traditional political families in more geographic terms, with many representatives from the newer EU arrivals feeling closer to each other than to their western counterparts, and how Orban could, theoretically, serve as a catalist for the formation of a new European illiberal/authoritarian political grouping.

Any thoughts on this?

I think it could be possible. The big question is whether they have more influence (cover) by being part of the large families than the would on their own. I think it's especially the case for the EPP because that has generally been the largest political group in Europe. The big division is actually foreign policy with these parties so Orban is very pro-Putin and PiS are not. Despite that they can work together and we'll have to see how much they can do that beyond narrow protective issues.

But as I say I still think the EU is fundamentally a tool for member states - I don't yet think it has enough of an independent political identity to resist or even a way of doing that. My concern is that post-Merkel we do see a turn to Europe as a slightly authoritarian/civilisational project. There's Macron's government's ongoing fight against "Islamoleftism", Michel's announcement of the EU wanting to fund a college for European Imams, Frontex who are Europe's first uniformed coercive force and, despite the jokes around Gibraltar, are primarily focused in South-Eastern Europe aggressively policing that border, and the Commissioner who was in charge of that was initially the Commissioner for Protecting the European Way of Life (now it's moved to "Promoting the European Way of Life"). Macron in particular seems to have gone from beating European populists by creating a Europe that protects economically to trying to outflank right-populists by promoting a Europe that protects culturally.

I think European politics will be different once Merkel goes and I've no idea how. But even if the authoritarians don't form a new group I could definitely see Macron, Salvini, Orban, Kurz etc working together this time on a, as I say, civilisational turn by the EU. I suspect that is more of a risk than a new European Parliament political bloc (not least because you can probably count on the fingers of one hand the times the Parliament goes against what member states want).

Incidentally, we focus a lot on Hungary but in a lot of ways the country that I find most alarming is Malta where you've had the murder of a journalist who was investigating government corruption and, from everything I've read, a cover-up of the investigation but it did lead to the resignation of the PM. But the Maltese Labour Party is part of the European Socialists and somehow it isn't a focus. I almost feel like we'd get more coverage of this sort of story if it was in Louisiana or Georgia than in a small EU member state (and Eurozone state). This is one of the issues of the lack of a European demos/public sphere - there is focus on Orban but there are other countries who deserve it just as much and there isn't, yet, a European press that sort of reports on this for everyone. I almost wonder if it'd be worth various European newspapers creating a joint bureau like an AP to cover other European countries plus Brussels so they didn't need to each have the costs because I imagine in terms of priorities reporting on, say, Malta and Slovenia is pretty low for most European newspapers.

[The Larch]

Incidentally, we focus a lot on Hungary but in a lot of ways the country that I find most alarming is Malta where you've had the murder of a journalist who was investigating government corruption and, from everything I've read, a cover-up of the investigation but it did lead to the resignation of the PM. But the Maltese Labour Party is part of the European Socialists and somehow it isn't a focus. I almost feel like we'd get more coverage of this sort of story if it was in Louisiana or Georgia than in a small EU member state (and Eurozone state). This is one of the issues of the lack of a European demos/public sphere - there is focus on Orban but there are other countries who deserve it just as much and there isn't, yet, a European press that sort of reports on this for everyone. I almost wonder if it'd be worth various European newspapers creating a joint bureau like an AP to cover other European countries plus Brussels so they didn't need to each have the costs because I imagine in terms of priorities reporting on, say, Malta and Slovenia is pretty low for most European newspapers.

In the article I mentioned the Maltese were specifically mentioned as one of the "problem children" of the European Socialists precisely because of the shadow of corruption lingering over them, with the murder of Daphne Caruana leading to the resignation of their PM over their role in it as the most damning event.

[Sheilbh]

In the article I mentioned the Maltese were specifically mentioned as one of the "problem children" of the European Socialists precisely because of the shadow of corruption lingering over them, with the murder of Daphne Caruana leading to the resignation of their PM over their role in it as the most damning event.

Yeah and I think it is. But I just think that we get an update on the situation I'd say on a monthly basis in the UK and given it's seriousness - the PM has been interviewed and his Chief of Staff arrested - I feel like there should be more coverage. And I think part of the reason it's less covered is because there's no reason for every newspaper in Europe to have a Maltese correspondent, but all of these countries, even the smallest, are part of the EU and worth reporting on even aside from a huge scandal like this. That's why I wonder if there'd be value in, say, El Pais, Le Monde, La Repubblica, the Guardian etc jointly paying for journalists in especially smaller EU member states so there's some coverage before it gets to the stage of a journalist being murdered or, in the case of Slovenia, the Slovenian government apparently really cracking down on press freedoms.

[Duque de Bragança]

Zupiter was elected thanks to islamo-leftists votes so I would not worry too much about the use of islamo-leftism by one of his ministers in an attempt to appear to do something.

[Tamas]

In a good example of things are run, one of the medium-sized cities worked with their GPs to organise vaccination centres. As I understand they wanted to channel the GPs centrally received patients into these for a more organised and efficient administration of the vaccines in the city.

However, the central authorities which should approve these before use have not been cooperating. Not in the sense of rejecting an approval, but in the sense of not even bothering to reply to requests to schedule a review of the premises. It has come to the city's GPs together publishing an open letter pleading them to reply.

It is, quite likely, a relevant detail that this happens to be an opposition-run city and I would imagine no state official wants to be part of a non-Fidesz city coming up with a better solution than what the God King endorsed.

[Tamas]

There are always new lows. The state TV have, many years ago, become the unchained dog of Fidesz and have now a long history of outrageously one-sided and false reporting. They would really make Fox News blush.

Latest one was their news reporting on the "latest wave" of the "rampaging" pandemic in Belgium where "it is hard to tell, whether it's still the 3rd or already the 4th wave".

They reported on the terrible situation:

- Belgium is on the verge of reaching 3000 new cases per day! (Hungary's average daily case number is 7700)
- More than 2000 covid patients are in hospital! (Hungary's official number is just shy of 10 000, although Belgium has 1.6 more people)
- 300 people on respirators! (1600 in Hungary)

Now of course they didn't bother to put these numbers into Hungarian context. Well, except for one: they were eager to highlight there have been more people vaccinated in Hungary than Belgium.

[Tamas]

In a good example of things are run, one of the medium-sized cities worked with their GPs to organise vaccination centres. As I understand they wanted to channel the GPs centrally received patients into these for a more organised and efficient administration of the vaccines in the city.

However, the central authorities which should approve these before use have not been cooperating. Not in the sense of rejecting an approval, but in the sense of not even bothering to reply to requests to schedule a review of the premises. It has come to the city's GPs together publishing an open letter pleading them to reply.

It is, quite likely, a relevant detail that this happens to be an opposition-run city and I would imagine no state official wants to be part of a non-Fidesz city coming up with a better solution than what the God King endorsed.

And just as can be expected: the above opposition-run city still have not received any feedback on trying to setup "custom" vaccination centres, but a Fidesz-run Budapest district had theirs approved pronto.

It's some Trump level bullshit, playing petty political games with people's lives.