Hungarian Politics

[Tamas]

There was some kind of annual event for attorneys.

The chief attorney, a long time friend of Orban, pointed out how he it was the first time that a reigning Prime Minister attended this event.

Orban said there is no more distance-holding between the government and the attorneys

[Tamas]

A new pension system proposal was put out to the public "for debate".

It would be some kind of point system, people would have their accounts where they accumulate "points" after their payments.

The interesting part is that, the plan sez, if you have no children when you retire, you will lose 38% of your points.
If you have one child, you lose 26%.
If you have 3, you gain a bonus of 15%.
If you have 4, you gain 24%

[Martinus]

A new pension system proposal was put out to the public "for debate".

It would be some kind of point system, people would have their accounts where they accumulate "points" after their payments.

The interesting part is that, the plan sez, if you have no children when you retire, you will lose 38% of your points.
If you have one child, you lose 26%.
If you have 3, you gain a bonus of 15%.
If you have 4, you gain 24%

LOL you guys are really fucked up.

[alfred russel]

A new pension system proposal was put out to the public "for debate".

It would be some kind of point system, people would have their accounts where they accumulate "points" after their payments.

The interesting part is that, the plan sez, if you have no children when you retire, you will lose 38% of your points.
If you have one child, you lose 26%.
If you have 3, you gain a bonus of 15%.
If you have 4, you gain 24%

Great idea, I'm sure a future Hungary populated by children their parents had for a few more percent on their pension will be awesome.

In the meantime, I need to come up with 3 more kids, anyone here willing to be adult adopted?

[Tamas]

What I also like is how they are trying to sell this as the trigger for a new baby boom.

An "incentive" for middle class families to raise children.

It tells volumes about these guys that they identify "incentive" as "do it this way or you're gonna be punished!"

[Barrister]

I understand France has some pretty serious bonuses for children - in particular for more than 2 children - and that it is showing success in maintaining a stable birth rate.

Europe is facing a pretty serious demographic problem with birth rates well below replacement.  A quick google shows that Hungary has an attrocious birth rate of 1.24 births per woman.

HUngary doesn't necessarily have to give bonuses on your pension, but on a quick glance you need to do *something*.

[Jacob]

Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

[Barrister]

Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

Well, yes.  But that costs money now, while putting it onto the pension system means passing the costs on down the road a few decades.

[Martinus]

What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.

[Martinus]

Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

Well, yes.  But that costs money now, while putting it onto the pension system means passing the costs on down the road a few decades.

What about the discriminatory/penalizing effect it has on people who are unable to have children (e.g. because they are barren or gay)? As Jacob points out, it makes sense to help people with child rearing, rather than giving them arbitrary benefits or penalties when this no longer matters.

[Barrister]

What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.

It's pretty simple, really.  If you want your society to survive, if you want there to be services available to you in your old age, you have to have children roughly in proportion to the number of deaths per year.  You want someone to work in your nursing home and change your diapers when you're in your dotage Marty.

Well... there is one other option.  Canada has a pretty shitty fertility rate too, but we make up for it in immigration.  Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And I utterly fail to see the connection between high unemployment and fertility rates.  Babies aren't in the labout market.

[Martinus]

What is it with idiot right wingers and breeding obsession.

Central and Eastern Europe is also facing serious unemployment. I fail to see how incentivising people to have more children (especially where such incentives work mainly for the poor, because noone with a decent income in these countries is counting on the state pension) is such a great idea.

It's pretty simple, really.  If you want your society to survive, if you want there to be services available to you in your old age, you have to have children roughly in proportion to the number of deaths per year.  You want someone to work in your nursing home and change your diapers when you're in your dotage Marty.

Well... there is one other option.  Canada has a pretty shitty fertility rate too, but we make up for it in immigration.  Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And I utterly fail to see the connection between high unemployment and fertility rates.  Babies aren't in the labout market.

They will be in the labour market when they grow up. It's not like we need more people, which unemployment rates prove. If you want to reduce the argument to absurd levels, one working person can change diapers of 20 old people so it's not like you need to keep the replacement rates. Again, the whole "we need to keep the population growing to survive" is a false argument, that reeks of 19th century style nationalistic mentality.

Overpopulation is the problem, not "there isn't enough people".

[Barrister]

Seems to me that you'd want to incentivize having children by helping out with the costs and challenges of actual child rearing rather than put any incentives/punishment many years down the road.

Well, yes.  But that costs money now, while putting it onto the pension system means passing the costs on down the road a few decades.

What about the discriminatory/penalizing effect it has on people who are unable to have children (e.g. because they are barren or gay)? As Jacob points out, it makes sense to help people with child rearing, rather than giving them arbitrary benefits or penalties when this no longer matters.

I know plenty of gay parents.

And do you really want to have to prove to the government that you don't have kids because you're barren, and not out of deliberate choice?  Sounds overly complicated to me.

Adjustments to pension isn't completely unconnected with child-rearing.  If you're raising kids that is less money you'd be able to save for your retirement.

I don't want to go too far defending this.  Jacob's critique is entirely valid - immediate benefits would make a much bigger difference than pension adjustments that won't be felt for 30-40 years (and are at the whim of a change of government).  But providing benefits to parents is a completely defensible public policy.

[Martinus]

Besides, the idea about incentivising people to have children by some "rewards" is both immoral and deeply dysfunctional - because it works on exactly the wrong kind of people.

What you want is for people who want to have children but are afraid of this being too much strain on them to have children - such people will not be affected by a promise of better pension - they need help now, as Jacob points out.

[alfred russel]

Most of Europe seems to have some hang-ups over immigration however.

And in the case of eastern/former communist europe, immigrants don't seem to have a desire to move their, either.