Hungarian Politics

[Martinus]

Well, I worded myself poorly - I'm against sanctions as punishment of an electorate's democratic choice . . . people have the right to be stupid.

However, I find it regrettable that there's hardly any coverage in mainstream media (at least from what I see in Austria/Germany) or comments from important politicians abroad.

I find it quite surprising. Here it gets reported on the front page of the biggest daily (that is not a tabloid).

[Martinus]

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Austria's ostracism was (perhaps unwisely) caused by a questionable party simply being brought into the government - it did not manage to enact any policies. Here we are talking about sanctioning a country for adopting certain policies which are ostensibly in violation of the Hungary's treaty obligations (including the European Convention of Human Rights) which imo is much more justificable than punishing the people for merely electing a "wrong" party.

I think the Austrian ostracism was wrong, I'm not sure that it would be right in Hungary's case either.

The core difference for me is that Austria was sanctioned because the government brought in a questionable party.  If Hungary were to be sanctioned it would be because over 50% of the electorate voted in a questionable party, which is now enacted its policies.  The people elected the 'wrong' party and now they're delivering what they promised.  That's not the sort of territory I think the EU should head into and is also anti-democratic of itself. 

If this happens then there's a clear precedent.  How anti-democratic must policies be before the EU intervenes?  Is it the EU's role to regulated the checks and balances of internal constitutions (this would after all be an enormous leap) and determine if, say, the independent judiciary is being undermined?

I'm also not sure what the Treaty basis is, what do you think it would be?

As to the ECHR I think that's fair - and I do think the prosecutor being able to choose their judge is against right to a fair trial - but that's for individuals to take to the Court, which is a long process.  Until that happens the ECHR can't do anything and is, anyway, separate from the eU.

They are not delivering what they promised. They are destroying the democratic state in Hungary.

And the obligation to uphold the ECHR is one of the requirements of joining the EU. While the ECJ has no institutional oversight, I don't see how it would be questionable for the EU to impose sanctions over a blatant and sweeping disregard for its rules like this.

[Tamas]

There was talk of a new constitution AFTER their victory.  But of course there was no mention of abolishing basic rules of modern democracy.

[Syt]

While surfing around on The Onion I found this gem:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/archaeologists-discover-worlds-first-guy-named-mar,6744/

Archaeologists Discover World's First Guy Named Marty

SZEGED, HUNGARY—University of Toronto archaeologists excavating a prehistoric settlement near the Serbian border announced Tuesday that they had unearthed the remains of the earliest known Marty, dating back nearly 9,000 years. "What makes this a significant find is the ancient Marty's features, which suggest he bore a striking resemblance to the Marty of today," said expedition leader Claribel Mollet, who determined the identity of the prehistoric man after carefully analyzing the stoop of his shoulders and the elongated distance between his eye sockets. "At the same site we've uncovered what appear to be dice used for an ancient game of craps, leading us to believe this specimen predates the Martys' split with ancestors of the modern Rick, who eventually moved westward." In 1998, researchers thought they had discovered the first Marty in Azerbaijan, but carbon-dating test results later revealed they had in fact discovered an early Eddie who just looked like a Marty.

[Tamas]

@ Syt


Ok so the EURHUF rate is at record highs again today.

Assuming that we DO sign SOMETHING with the IMF, I want to drive to Austria, or fly to London, and open an account there, as safe haven.

Any tips? I would need an account I can access from the Interwebs, and can tie down the money on it on some kind of savings.

[Martinus]

@ Syt


Ok so the EURHUF rate is at record highs again today.

Assuming that we DO sign SOMETHING with the IMF, I want to drive to Austria, or fly to London, and open an account there, as safe haven.

Any tips? I would need an account I can access from the Interwebs, and can tie down the money on it on some kind of savings.

I don't think you can do it. I know I had to close down my Belgian account when I was moving back from my secondment in Brussels - under EU law you have to have an account with a place of your residence I believe.

[Sheilbh]

@ Syt


Ok so the EURHUF rate is at record highs again today.

Assuming that we DO sign SOMETHING with the IMF, I want to drive to Austria, or fly to London, and open an account there, as safe haven.

Any tips? I would need an account I can access from the Interwebs, and can tie down the money on it on some kind of savings.

I've no idea to be honest.  There are expat accounts offered by UK banks, normally based somewhere like Jersey (possibly to avoid rules like Marti just mentioned), but from what I remember you need a lot of money to open one.

[Tamas]

Hm, thanks, Austria it is then. Supposedly a lot Magyars have been evacuating their savings there.

[Valmy]

Hm, thanks, Austria it is then. Supposedly a lot Magyars have been evacuating their savings there.

I knew they would come crawling back.

[Tamas]

 

it may prove to be going overboard if we do get the IMF deal, but the general sentiment in the country, at least among the people I hear and read, is perhaps the gloomiest I have ever experienced, and that is quite a thing when you talk about Hungarians. It's quite clear to me that the EU intends the IMF loan as a weapon to coerce Orban into folding his plans of becoming a dictator, but doing so is so against his personality, that receiving that god damn loan appears near impossible.

[Martinus]

Just read that Hungarian currency market is pretty much in the state of panic, with people selling forints en masse and opening bank accounts in Austria. The government is warning it is illegal and will crack down on it. Tamas, you may be too late.

[Tamas]

Just read that Hungarian currency market is pretty much in the state of panic, with people selling forints en masse and opening bank accounts in Austria. The government is warning it is illegal and will crack down on it. Tamas, you may be too late.

Nah I didnt hear about the making it illegal part yet.
Either we get the IMF deal or the government sells the euro reserves of the central bank, or both, either way, there should be a brief strengthening of our currency, which will see me appear in an Austrian bank.
The other scenario is that we collapse without an interim strengthening and me and my family are fucked.

[alfred russel]

Tamas, who would win if they held elections today?

Also, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?

[Zanza]

The people on Paradox think it's all just leftist scaremongering and what Orban does is basically fine.

[Sheilbh]

Also, if the EU started throwing their weight around, would people rally to the government?

I'd guess that's inevitable.

You can have bank accounts in other EU countries if you're non-resident:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/banking/opening-bank-account/index_en.htm

I'll have a look and see if there's any non-expat ones in the big UK banks.