Hungarian Politics

[HVC]

Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.

Just the kind of emoticons a leftist agitator would use

[Martinus]

Well that is basically British democracy. But we have a very independent judiciary, an aggressive media and no written constitution to casually replace.

And you have long tradition. It's like having a 200 yo lawn vs. one that just got seeded few years ago.

[Tamas]

Well that is basically British democracy. But we have a very independent judiciary, an aggressive media and no written constitution to casually replace.

And you have long tradition. It's like having a 200 yo lawn vs. one that just got seeded few years ago.

yes

[alfred russel]

I saw a movie once where a Hungarian lawn was seeded.

[Syt]

Well, I'm done reading the P'dox thread. Consensus seems to be that things aren't as bad as they seem, or at least not worse than in other countries, and that the elected government have the mandate to do as they see fit. All the bad press is left wing fearmongering by people with questionable agendas. The Orban government is doing what the law allows them to, and are wonderful democrats. Also, the Hungarians can vote them out, after all, if things are really so bad.

I presume the posters will declare peace in our time soon.

I have to correct: it's also liberal right-wingers (pro-free market) complaining the righteous conservative right-wingers of Orban.

[Ideologue]

I saw a movie once where a Hungarian lawn was seeded.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I saw a movie once where a Hungarian lawn was seeded.

Alfred's account has been hacked either by Caliga or Ed Anger 

[Tamas]

On the request of our resident Polack Shrill Machine, an update:

the forint stabilized a bit below the historic lows, as the government makes gestures which may indicate they might comply with the IMF.

Of course, the IMF does not appear to be starting loan negotiations until some law-cancellations or changings happen. Sadly, they seem to concentrate on the central bank law, which is far from being the only one letting Orban and his gorillas stay in power even if Teh People don't want them.

Orban did appear to be setting up rhetorics for yet another 180 degrees turn in his policies, which will be far from the first one, even during his current governance. In an interview he outlined, in very very, very broad terms, the stuff the IMF is allegedly demanding. Of course, he outlined these as the plans of his own government, plans which have always been clear and pre-determined throughout their governance.

We have always been at war with Eurasia.

[Martinus]

I am not sure what I think about the Beast called "Global Markets". On one hand, it brings down would be despots, like Orban and Berlusconi. On the other hand, it seems completely devoid of any morality and is more of a force of nature. The thing is, the age of sovereign states is over - there is noone in the world who can oppose that Beast, whether with a democratic mandate or not.

[Sheilbh]

I am not sure what I think about the Beast called "Global Markets". On one hand, it brings down would be despots, like Orban and Berlusconi.

Well the ECB and EU had a hand in bringing down Berlusconi.

The thing is, the age of sovereign states is over - there is noone in the world who can oppose that Beast, whether with a democratic mandate or not.

Nonsense.

[Valmy]

Nonsense.

All you really have to do to keep global marketeers from having power over you is not need money from them to bail you out.

Sovereign states are perfectly capable of not going into massive debt if that is something they would like to avoid.

[Sheilbh]

All you really have to do to keep global marketeers from having power over you is not need money from them to bail you out.

Sovereign states are perfectly capable of not going into massive debt if that is something they would like to avoid.

Many of the global marketeers have themselves been bailed out.  In the case of Hungary it's the IMF and the EU that's pushing for change - organisations of governments - not Central European banks that are just trying to cut their exposure.

In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.  But I don't think the nation state is supinely surrendering to the global markets and they certainly don't have to, it's a choice.  I'm also always very suspicious of whiggish claims as to the strength of globalisation as some unstoppable force.  In the past twenty years or so we've only just surpassed the globalisation of pre-WW1.

I think Marti's right that the fundamental division in our politics now isn't left-right so much as globalists-nationalists (roughly, I think you've argued this Marti).

[Valmy]

In addition you can simply refuse, like the Argentines did.

Of course.  You only have to do what international finance wants if you want their money. 

[Syt]

The Paradox forums keep telling me that things are ok, and that Orban is doing their best to save the country within democratic means, vocal naysayers in opposition and media notwithstanding. Also, 18 months is too short a period to assess their economic policies for success or failure. So I don't know, what Tamas keeps complaining about. :p

[Sheilbh]

This struck me as very interesting:
http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/from-here-to-eternity-hungarian-style/

Two things in particular intrigue me. 
One is the link between deficits and the end of consumption booms.  I'd like to read more on that at some point, he says there's no theory for it though.
The second is the demographic situation which I'd never considered before.  It's not good in Hungary, or any of the Euro-periphery (I think Spain's an exception).  I can't imagine what's going to happen in a country like Greece with near 50% youth unemployment, and an aging, shriking population.  For that matter the demographics aren't very good in the Euro-core (with the exception of France) and even success stories like Poland.