Hungarian Politics

[Valmy]

Meh, the politicians will be pardoned soon without need for the EU to put us in the doghouse. All in all they will have served 3 years. And while we may argue about the severity of the sentences, what they did was very hardly beyond reproach from the courts.

And at least they were consistent with laws and not some arbitrary nonsense. Maybe those laws are not consistent with EU values, whatever those might be, though.

LOOK AT HOW THEY ARE HORRIBLY VICTIMIZING POOR ORBAN BY DOING NOTHING AT ALL WHILE DOING NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT SPAIN!!!111

Seems consistent to me. You can do whatever.

[celedhring]

And the government has announced it intends to reform those laws.

[Sheilbh]

I'm pretty uncomfortable with laws that make elected politicians criminals for political acts. If they're actually planting bombs/breaking general laws then fine, but otherwise it seems very dodgy to me. And I think it's difficult to draw lines about why it's okay in Spain but not, for example, in a more authoritarian state like Hungary.

But we may soon see what the UK position on that is anyway - which is exciting

[Valmy]

And the government has announced it intends to reform those laws.

See Crazy Ivan? EU non-pressure works.

[Duque de Bragança]

And I worry it might take quite a dark turn after Merkel leaves because I think there's several leaders in Europe now - Orban, Macron, Kurz, Duda - who are talking in sort of civilisational rather than value terms about Europe. Obviously there's loads of things that might change that.

For Macron chillax, it's just talk; previously he said there was not a French culture so I would take whatever he spouts with a huge grain of salt.

[Valmy]

Really? So what does the Ministère de la Culture do these days?

[celedhring]

I'm pretty uncomfortable with laws that make elected politicians criminals for political acts. If they're actually planting bombs/breaking general laws then fine, but otherwise it seems very dodgy to me. And I think it's difficult to draw lines about why it's okay in Spain but not, for example, in a more authoritarian state like Hungary.

But we may soon see what the UK position on that is anyway - which is exciting

Just the misuse of public monies to fund the referendum carries a harsher sentence than the 3 years they will end up serving. Do we absolve them of everything just because somehow what they did was "political" (whatever that means).

[celedhring]

And the government has announced it intends to reform those laws.

See Crazy Ivan? EU non-pressure works.

Gotta say I'm skeptical they will find the votes, since they are a minority government and consensus will be difficult. But they have indeed been very open that they want to push a reform forward.

[Sheilbh]

Just the misuse of public monies to fund the referendum carries a harsher sentence than the 3 years they will end up serving. Do we absolve them of everything just because somehow what they did was "political" (whatever that means).

But it's a misuse because the referendum's illegal, right? That's my issue it's different than funneling contracts to your mates.

And you know it could apply in other states for the misuse of public money by politicians to NGOs that promot civil society or that help illegal migrants or LGBT rights.

I've no idea what the approach would be in the UK it just seems to me a bit anti-democratic and risky. I'd be very uncomfortable (and probably protesting against) any SNP politicians if they did an unlawful referendum or a UDI. I mean Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams were MPs at one point.

[Duque de Bragança]

Really? So what does the Ministère de la Culture do these days?

Not much. Culture is mostly under lockdown
They keep repeating to the Culture sector people to be patient, for better times will come.

[celedhring]

Just the misuse of public monies to fund the referendum carries a harsher sentence than the 3 years they will end up serving. Do we absolve them of everything just because somehow what they did was "political" (whatever that means).

But it's a misuse because the referendum's illegal, right? That's my issue it's different than funneling contracts to your mates.

And you know it could apply in other states for the misuse of public money by politicians to NGOs that promot civil society or that help illegal migrants or LGBT rights.

I've no idea what the approach would be in the UK it just seems to me a bit anti-democratic and risky. I'd be very uncomfortable (and probably protesting against) any SNP politicians if they did an unlawful referendum or a UDI. I mean Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams were MPs at one point.

And why should the referendum not be illegal? They passed a law that made that referendum binding, with a proto-Catalan constitution that had to be enacted within 10 days of it. Puigdemont ultimately shat his pants, but I honestly can't see how you're supposed to turn a blind eye to that. Yes, the sedition sentence was OTT, but the current government is pretty open about wanting to remedy that (but the pardon process in Spain is long).

AFAIK, the SNP wants to do a "consultative" referendum. We had one of those in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it.

[Valmy]

Really? So what does the Ministère de la Culture do these days?

Not much. Culture is mostly under lockdown
They keep repeating to the Culture sector people to be patient, for better times will come.

What a great time to be a minister. "Look at all the cultural festivals we cannot hold"

[Duque de Bragança]

Really? So what does the Ministère de la Culture do these days?

Not much. Culture is mostly under lockdown
They keep repeating to the Culture sector people to be patient, for better times will come.

What a great time to be a minister. "Look at all the cultural festivals we cannot hold"

Current Culture minister is a former Health Minister who was mocked back then for being too cautious with a new Asian virus. 

[Sheilbh]

And why should the referendum not be illegal? They passed a law that made that referendum binding, with a proto-Catalan constitution that had to be enacted within 10 days of it. Puigdemont ultimately shat his pants, but I honestly can't see how you're supposed to turn a blind eye to that.

AFAIK, the SNP wants to do a "consultative" referendum. We had one of those in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it.

It all depends. That's the moderate position of the SNP at the minute (by Sturgeon), but there's a debate about what happens if they win a majority and Westminster won't allow another referendum. Hardliners want to organise an unlawful referendum and a UDI if it succeeds - there's also rumours Alex Salmond might launch a referendum and UDI party to spite Sturgeon

As I say we'll see - I don't know what the position is.

For me I'd say political punishments would be more appropriate - removing them from office and banning them from running for or holding office.

[Valmy]

Yeah I would say that political punishments is probably a more just course of action, if done according to the rule of law of course.