Is it their culture or their biology?
For instance, if a black person is adopted by a white family and raised culturally white, are they still "black"? Additionally, if a person has a Mexican father and a white mother, is raised not knowing Spanish but spends equal time with both, what race do they put down on the census form? (We're assuming no "other" exists on said form.)
My sister and I were raised Mexican culturally because we were fostered out when we were very young - I was three, my sister was two months old - and lived with said foster family until we were nearing our teen years. However, our biological family is Welsh and English, and we both lived with them during our teen years. My younger sister speaks Spanish fluently, but I only understand bits and pieces of it. What race are we?
P.S. Neil, I <3 you, but stay out. I'm seriously wondering what people think constitutes a "race" under these circumstances, sans troll.
While the concept of human races is basically a cultural construct, race isn't culture. You're white.
Ever since Tiger Woods we've been living in the hybrid age.
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 09:36:41 PM
While the concept of human races is basically a cultural construct, race isn't culture. You're white.
Why? I mean, if we had been adopted, would that then change?
It is often what others perceive you to be.
Racially speaking, I'm 75% Buckeye & 25% West Virginian. I grew up in West Virginia. But now I live in Ohio. What am I??? :unsure:
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 09:40:57 PM
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 09:36:41 PM
While the concept of human races is basically a cultural construct, race isn't culture. You're white.
Why? I mean, if we had been adopted, would that then change?
Because we've lived through times when race determined what rights you had, or if you had any at all. I think that recent experience means we can see it in purely cultural terms.
Biology. A Slav-is-a-Slav-is-a-Slav.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 13, 2009, 09:50:38 PM
Because we've lived through times when race determined what rights you had, or if you had any at all. I think that recent experience means we can see it in purely cultural terms.
Does that work for blacks raised "white" or vice versa?
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 09:54:01 PM
Does that work for blacks raised "white" or vice versa?
Yes. Though I don't think you can be raised 'white' unless everyone else sees you as 'white' which no-one else will.
Edit: We can call this 'The Jerk' rule :p
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 09:54:01 PM
Does that work for blacks raised "white" or vice versa?
I don't think so. Once your skin has a tanner shade, one is blocked from that designation.
What I mean by "raised white" or "raised Hispanic" is that culturally you understand that way of life to be "normal". So, for me, eating rice and beans with tortillas with every meal is "normal", but for my other Welsh/English-Americans, that's "foreign". For a white person to be raised "black" they understand what someone else means when they say that greens and macaroni and cheese are essential for any meal to be complete.
Note: Yes, I completely understand that I'm feeding the stereotypes. I apologize in advance for doing so.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 09:59:33 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 09:54:01 PM
Does that work for blacks raised "white" or vice versa?
I don't think so. Once your skin has a tanner shade, one is blocked from that designation.
So while a lighter-skinned person can claim a darker race due to culture, it cannot go the other direction?
Your race is your skin colour ( skin colour further divided into things like facial features). Like Garbon said it's mainly a perception of how others see you. A black man from lousiana and a black man from California would have little in common, but both are black.
I imagine a child raised by parents of a different race must have it tough in a lot of cases. a black kid raised by white parent, for instance, will no doubt be seen as "black" by his white peers, and "too white" by his black peers.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:05:42 PM
So while a lighter-skinned person can claim a darker race due to culture, it cannot go the other direction?
Yeah. But of course a black person's fellow blacks may give him shit for "being white" if he acts too much that way.
A black person raised in a white area is black. You, raised briefly in a mexican home, are no more mexican than you would be if you stayed there your entire life, and spoke it.
Its biology.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:05:42 PM
So while a lighter-skinned person can claim a darker race due to culture, it cannot go the other direction?
Not in the least. There is the constant threat of being told that you aren't black enough (which was a good reason for me not to join in on any black events at stanford), which also happens to a fully "black" person of alternate sexuality.
Personally, I don't care what race I am, as long as I'm perceived favorably by whomever is making a racial judgment. So if that means at times, I'm Indian, so be it.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:04:30 PM
What I mean by "raised white" or "raised Hispanic" is that culturally you understand that way of life to be "normal". So, for me, eating rice and beans with tortillas with every meal is "normal", but for my other Welsh/English-Americans, that's "foreign". For a white person to be raised "black" they understand what someone else means when they say that greens and macaroni and cheese are essential for any meal to be complete.
Note: Yes, I completely understand that I'm feeding the stereotypes. I apologize in advance for doing so.
The point I tried to make is that race isn't about what you eat, or what kind of clothes you wear. Basically, it boils down to your skin color, the type of hair you have, and a few other biological factors. Those things determine how others view you; if you look white, people are going to consider you white--if you look white but have dietary habits that aren't perceived as "white" people are going to consider you to be a white person with unusual taste in food, not as a non-white person. Or, at the risk of, as you put it, feeding the stereotypes, a light-skinned black man can pass as white even if he eats lots of watermelon and fried chicken, but a dark-skinned black man can't pass as white even if he hates watermelon and chicken.
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:08:31 PM
Your race is your skin colour ( skin colour further divided into things like facial features). Like Garbon said it's mainly a perception of how others see you. A black man from lousiana and a black man from California would have little in common, but both are black.
This doesn't work very well. I have cousins who are as pale as I am, but are biologically Mexican. At the same time, I know a woman who is dark skinned, black hair, and dark brown eyes, looking for all the world Hispanic, and yet is white.
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:08:31 PM
I imagine a child raised by parents of a different race must have it tough in a lot of cases. a black kid raised by white parent, for instance, will no doubt be seen as "black" by his white peers, and "too white" by his black peers.
That's actually where this topic came from. We had a parent with a middle-eastern child, a mixed black/white child, and a full white child, and she wasn't sure what race to put down for any of the children since they were all raised "white" from a white mom.
Your race is determined by how your particular culture views your phyiscal traits. A black dude can be culturally white all he wants but he will still be black, and vice versa.
However race is often not that simple. There are more and more people who are mixed race and they sort of get lumped into the ever increasing pile of 'brownish people of indeterminate origin' which is sorta where I predict most of humanity will end up eventually.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:15:02 PM
This doesn't work very well. I have cousins who are as pale as I am, but are biologically Mexican. At the same time, I know a woman who is dark skinned, black hair, and dark brown eyes, looking for all the world Hispanic, and yet is white.
That's because Hispanic and Latino and all those aren't racial categories, they're descriptions of geographic origin.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:15:02 PM
that's actually where this topic came from. We had a parent with a middle-eastern child, a mixed black/white child, and a full white child, and she wasn't sure what race to put down for any of the children since they were all raised "white" from a white mom.
What is the context? I think race in this country is completely self identified.
But if they are applying for a black scholarship or something they probably need to have the right physical traits.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:15:02 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:08:31 PM
Your race is your skin colour ( skin colour further divided into things like facial features). Like Garbon said it's mainly a perception of how others see you. A black man from lousiana and a black man from California would have little in common, but both are black.
This doesn't work very well. I have cousins who are as pale as I am, but are biologically Mexican. At the same time, I know a woman who is dark skinned, black hair, and dark brown eyes, looking for all the world Hispanic, and yet is white.
Yeah, Hispanics (and i i guese portuguese people) are weird. We run the gambit in colours. So i guess they go sliding scale:
1If you speak Spanglish you're hispanic regardless of skin colour
2 If you don't have an accent you go by colour. dark = black, white = white, and tanned puts you back into hispanic.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:14:07 PM
Not in the least. There is the constant threat of being told that you aren't black enough (which was a good reason for me not to join in on any black events at stanford), which also happens to a fully "black" person of alternate sexuality.
Personally, I don't care what race I am, as long as I'm perceived favorably by whomever is making a racial judgment. So if that means at times, I'm Indian, so be it.
I knew you'd have an interesting take on this, as you live this every day.
My principal, a black woman, said when we had this discussion that what I feel I am is what I am. I feel Mexican, because the most important of my formative years were, in fact, Mexican. And yet, to the outside world, I am white because that's what their eyes tell them I am when they see me. Lately, whenever I fill out paperwork, I've been putting down Hispanic White (as opposed to Non-Hispanic White). It seems more honest, and yet to some, I could see this as being complete bunk.
For our children at the middle school who are mixed and must decide which heritage to pick, it's an entirely different ball of wax. Especially when so many are being raised by their white or black grandparents. Which side do they pick? The side that's raising them? Or the side that determined their skin tone?
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:15:02 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:08:31 PM
Your race is your skin colour ( skin colour further divided into things like facial features). Like Garbon said it's mainly a perception of how
That's actually where this topic came from. We had a parent with a middle-eastern child, a mixed black/white child, and a full white child, and she wasn't sure what race to put down for any of the children since they were all raised "white" from a white mom.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:15:02 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:08:31 PM
Your race is your skin colour ( skin colour further divided into things like facial features). Like Garbon said it's mainly a perception of how others see you. A black man from lousiana and a black man from California would have little in common, but both are black.
This doesn't work very well. I have cousins who are as pale as I am, but are biologically Mexican. At the same time, I know a woman who is dark skinned, black hair, and dark brown eyes, looking for all the world Hispanic, and yet is white.
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:08:31 PM
I imagine a child raised by parents of a different race must have it tough in a lot of cases. a black kid raised by white parent, for instance, will no doubt be seen as "black" by his white peers, and "too white" by his black peers.
That's actually where this topic came from. We had a parent with a middle-eastern child, a mixed black/white child, and a full white child, and she wasn't sure what race to put down for any of the children since they were all raised "white" from a white mom.
To address the second point first, in what context was the parent being asked the race of the children? I assume it wasn't for the census, since this isn't a census year (and I don't think you're talking about something that happened in 2000), plus the U.S Census now includes a mixed-race option.
As to the first point, "Mexican" isn't a race. It's a nationality. There isn't any such thing as being "biologically Mexican" as there is a way to tell from their DNA if someone is a Canadian citizen.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 13, 2009, 10:18:15 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:15:02 PM
This doesn't work very well. I have cousins who are as pale as I am, but are biologically Mexican. At the same time, I know a woman who is dark skinned, black hair, and dark brown eyes, looking for all the world Hispanic, and yet is white.
That's because Hispanic and Latino and all those aren't racial categories, they're descriptions of geographic origin.
Yeah the Hispanic and Latino thing confuses me. Hispanic is a sub-category of white in this country (and I think it will become one in the US too), it's an ethnic-national background thing here, not at all to do with race.
I wonder if the difference is because of the larger numbers of mixed Hispanic-native in countries that have lots of emigrants to the US, like Mexico.
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:19:16 PM
What is the context? I think race in this country is completely self identified.
But if they are applying for a black scholarship or something they probably need to have the right physical traits.
In our school district, a child must pick a race - a single race - when they register for school. "Other" is not an option, neither is "mixed race". So, in order to register for school, the parents much choose a race. If one is not chosen, the default is "white".
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:08:31 PM
Your race is your skin colour ( skin colour further divided into things like facial features). Like Garbon said it's mainly a perception of how others see you. A black man from lousiana and a black man from California would have little in common, but both are black.
I imagine a child raised by parents of a different race must have it tough in a lot of cases. a black kid raised by white parent, for instance, will no doubt be seen as "black" by his white peers, and "too white" by his black peers.
It isn't simple though, as people's perceptions don't always align with one's racial background. I'm quite a testament to that.
Dang, there's been a lot of quick replys in this thread.
Also, the quoting still sucks here. :mad:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 13, 2009, 10:23:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 13, 2009, 10:18:15 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:15:02 PM
This doesn't work very well. I have cousins who are as pale as I am, but are biologically Mexican. At the same time, I know a woman who is dark skinned, black hair, and dark brown eyes, looking for all the world Hispanic, and yet is white.
That's because Hispanic and Latino and all those aren't racial categories, they're descriptions of geographic origin.
Yeah the Hispanic and Latino thing confuses me. Hispanic is a sub-category of white in this country (and I think it will become one in the US too), it's an ethnic-national background thing here, not at all to do with race.
I wonder if the difference is because of the larger numbers of mixed Hispanic-native in countries that have lots of emigrants to the US, like Mexico.
The use of "Hispanic" as a racial classification in the U.S. is the result of politicians trying to suck up to voters with a Latin-American background.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:21:51 PM
I knew you'd have an interesting take on this, as you live this every day.
My principal, a black woman, said when we had this discussion that what I feel I am is what I am. I feel Mexican, because the most important of my formative years were, in fact, Mexican. And yet, to the outside world, I am white because that's what their eyes tell them I am when they see me. Lately, whenever I fill out paperwork, I've been putting down Hispanic White (as opposed to Non-Hispanic White). It seems more honest, and yet to some, I could see this as being complete bunk.
For our children at the middle school who are mixed and must decide which heritage to pick, it's an entirely different ball of wax. Especially when so many are being raised by their white or black grandparents. Which side do they pick? The side that's raising them? Or the side that determined their skin tone?
I certainly have sympathy for the moment that one says one can decide one's own racial affiliation, but I don't really think that's realistic. People will make judgments and treat you accordinly by their judgments, not your own. I personally don't see why a person of "ambiguous" racial background should feel compelled to make a choice. What benefit does it convey for the individual?
Great prediction, valmy. Do you have others?
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 13, 2009, 10:23:34 PM
Yeah the Hispanic and Latino thing confuses me. Hispanic is a sub-category of white in this country (and I think it will become one in the US too), it's an ethnic-national background thing here, not at all to do with race.
I wonder if the difference is because of the larger numbers of mixed Hispanic-native in countries that have lots of emigrants to the US, like Mexico.
In the U.S. a person has the option of choosing "White - Non-Hispanic" or "Hispanic White". For most of my life, because of my genealogical roots, I've chosen the former. Lately - as in the last year or so - I've been choosing the later. This is becoming an issue because I am applying for grad school this fall, and I've put down that I am Hispanic, because that is what I am culturally. This means that according to the school, I am a minority.
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:19:16 PM
I think race in this country is completely self identified.
But if they are applying for a black scholarship or something they probably need to have the right physical traits.
That second sentence belies the fiction in your first.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:23:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:19:16 PM
What is the context? I think race in this country is completely self identified.
But if they are applying for a black scholarship or something they probably need to have the right physical traits.
In our school district, a child must pick a race - a single race - when they register for school. "Other" is not an option, neither is "mixed race". So, in order to register for school, the parents much choose a race. If one is not chosen, the default is "white".
Mixed race is relatively recent. That used to just mean 'black'.
Quote
The use of "Hispanic" as a racial classification in the U.S. is the result of politicians trying to suck up to voters with a Latin-American background.
White's a pretty amorphous concept. It used to be that the Irish and the Jews were barely white. I suspect Hispanic will be considered as white as Jew or Irish.
In the UK it would be 'White - Hispanic' like 'White - British' or 'White - Irish' not 'Hispanic White' or 'Non-Hispanic White'.
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:17:15 PM
However race is often not that simple. There are more and more people who are mixed race and they sort of get lumped into the ever increasing pile of 'brownish people of indeterminate origin' which is sorta where I predict most of humanity will end up eventually.
There's already a term for that
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AmbiguouslyBrown
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 10:26:19 PM
The use of "Hispanic" as a racial classification in the U.S. is the result of politicians trying to suck up to voters with a Latin-American background.
I see it as attempt to shoehorn Puerto Ricans into the existing classification system.
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:17:15 PM
However race is often not that simple. There are more and more people who are mixed race and they sort of get lumped into the ever increasing pile of 'brownish people of indeterminate origin' which is sorta where I predict most of humanity will end up eventually.
Yeah. The fastest growing ethnic group in the UK is mixed race.
Yeah. "White" has evolved in this country to basically mean "non-black" rather than of predominant European descent.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:26:59 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:21:51 PM
I knew you'd have an interesting take on this, as you live this every day.
My principal, a black woman, said when we had this discussion that what I feel I am is what I am. I feel Mexican, because the most important of my formative years were, in fact, Mexican. And yet, to the outside world, I am white because that's what their eyes tell them I am when they see me. Lately, whenever I fill out paperwork, I've been putting down Hispanic White (as opposed to Non-Hispanic White). It seems more honest, and yet to some, I could see this as being complete bunk.
For our children at the middle school who are mixed and must decide which heritage to pick, it's an entirely different ball of wax. Especially when so many are being raised by their white or black grandparents. Which side do they pick? The side that's raising them? Or the side that determined their skin tone?
I certainly have sympathy for the moment that one says one can decide one's own racial affiliation, but I don't really think that's realistic. People will make judgments and treat you accordinly by their judgments, not your own. I personally don't see why a person of "ambiguous" racial background should feel compelled to make a choice. What benefit does it convey for the individual?
Yeah, on things like that middle-school form, where the individual student isn't going to be eligible for any special program or benefits based on what race they're classified as, just mark a box at random, 'cause it doesn't matter anyway. On the other hand, if you're the owner of a business and would like to get a govenment contract that has been earmarked to go to a minority owned business, identify yourself as being a member of the appropriate minority, if your physical appearance will let you pull it off.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:26:59 PM
I certainly have sympathy for the moment that one says one can decide one's own racial affiliation, but I don't really think that's realistic. People will make judgments and treat you accordinly by their judgments, not your own. I personally don't see why a person of "ambiguous" racial background should feel compelled to make a choice. What benefit does it convey for the individual?
Our district was under a court-mandated program to fix racially-motivated concerns that came about during the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Because of this, the district required families to identify as either black or other. They were not allowed to pick "mixed" or "other" as that didn't help them identify racial concerns in the district. White, hispanics, asians, and american indians were lumped together for the courts, and blacks were their own category. But on the forms, one was able to choose.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 13, 2009, 10:30:12 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:23:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:19:16 PM
What is the context? I think race in this country is completely self identified.
But if they are applying for a black scholarship or something they probably need to have the right physical traits.
In our school district, a child must pick a race - a single race - when they register for school. "Other" is not an option, neither is "mixed race". So, in order to register for school, the parents much choose a race. If one is not chosen, the default is "white".
Mixed race is relatively recent. That used to just mean 'black'.
Quote
The use of "Hispanic" as a racial classification in the U.S. is the result of politicians trying to suck up to voters with a Latin-American background.
White's a pretty amorphous concept. It used to be that the Irish and the Jews were barely white. I suspect Hispanic will be considered as white as Jew or Irish.
In the UK it would be 'White - Hispanic' like 'White - British' or 'White - Irish' not 'Hispanic White' or 'Non-Hispanic White'.
Hispanic is a ridiculous made up term, covering whites, blacks and native americans from south of the Rio Grande. The census should get rid of it.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:28:56 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 13, 2009, 10:23:34 PM
Yeah the Hispanic and Latino thing confuses me. Hispanic is a sub-category of white in this country (and I think it will become one in the US too), it's an ethnic-national background thing here, not at all to do with race.
I wonder if the difference is because of the larger numbers of mixed Hispanic-native in countries that have lots of emigrants to the US, like Mexico.
In the U.S. a person has the option of choosing "White - Non-Hispanic" or "Hispanic White". For most of my life, because of my genealogical roots, I've chosen the former. Lately - as in the last year or so - I've been choosing the later. This is becoming an issue because I am applying for grad school this fall, and I've put down that I am Hispanic, because that is what I am culturally. This means that according to the school, I am a minority.
I'm not sure about the situation now, but at one time, for certain purposes, the govenment considered you Hispanic if you had a Spanish surname. Some member of the Lee family (as in the Lees of Virginia) legally changed his name to Rodriquez so he could get a scholarship or contract that was intended to go to a Hispanic person. True story, though I may have some of the details wrong.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:33:09 PM
Our district was under a court-mandated program to fix racially-motivated concerns that came about during the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Because of this, the district required families to identify as either black or other. They were not allowed to pick "mixed" or "other" as that didn't help them identify racial concerns in the district. White, hispanics, asians, and american indians were lumped together for the courts, and blacks were their own category. But on the forms, one was able to choose.
Oh well under that scheme, always opt for the minority box. You ain't ever going to get nothing for being white...whereas I quickly found that the black box opened up doors for scholarships.
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 10:32:29 PM
Yeah, on things like that middle-school form, where the individual student isn't going to be eligible for any special program or benefits based on what race they're classified as, just mark a box at random, 'cause it doesn't matter anyway. On the other hand, if you're the owner of a business and would like to get a govenment contract that has been earmarked to go to a minority owned business, identify yourself as being a member of the appropriate minority, if your physical appearance will let you pull it off.
Actually, it matters a great deal. In our district, a black student in Honors classes getting a C or lower as a grade will be matched with a tutor, brought in for an interview to determine why he or she isn't doing well, and basically watched over like a hawk. Any other student, on the other hand, won't even be brought in with a failing grade.
Quote from: Lettow77 on August 13, 2009, 10:28:42 PM
Great prediction, valmy. Do you have others?
I got a million of em baby!
I kinda figured you wouldn't like that one :P
Its just absolutely implausible, and I hear it often enough that I had to snort. If breeding was random instead of selection based, perhaps then sure. But as it is? Some dystopian nightmare from a world-that-isnt, and nothing more.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:36:20 PM
Oh well under that scheme, always opt for the minority box. You ain't ever going to get nothing for being white...whereas I quickly found that the black box opened up doors for scholarships.
Exactly, and I tell my mixed families that. "If you want more choices and more options, pick the "black" box." Hell, we had one kid in the school whose mother was 1/4 black (her grand mother was black), that Mom marked as black. He made it into a very privileged program academically because of it, though he looked and acted whiter than I do.
Quote from: Lettow77 on August 13, 2009, 10:38:11 PM
Its just absolutely implausible, and I hear it often enough that I had to snort. If breeding was random instead of selection based, perhaps then sure. But as it is? Some dystopian nightmare from a world-that-isnt, and nothing more.
Dystopian? :yeahright:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 13, 2009, 10:34:38 PM
Hispanic is a ridiculous made up term, covering whites, blacks and native americans from south of the Rio Grande. The census should get rid of it.
In Texas Latinos basically have two races. They are Black, Native American, or White but then they are also Latino.
For example Austin is 65.6% White, 9.1% Black, 1% Native American and Pacific Islander, 6.2% Asian, 20.4% "other" (basically people who wanted to say "fuck you" to the census form), and 2.1% mixed of various flavors.
In addition 34.2% also identified themselves as Latino.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:40:27 PM
Exactly, and I tell my mixed families that. "If you want more choices and more options, pick the "black" box." Hell, we had one kid in the school whose mother was 1/4 black (her grand mother was black), that Mom marked as black. He made it into a very privileged program academically because of it, though he looked and acted whiter than I do.
Yep, that's what my white mother told me as well. If they want to offer the handout, I'll be happy to take it :)
Quote from: Lettow77 on August 13, 2009, 10:38:11 PM
Its just absolutely implausible, and I hear it often enough that I had to snort. If breeding was random instead of selection based, perhaps then sure. But as it is? Some dystopian nightmare from a world-that-isnt, and nothing more.
It only takes a couple each generation Lettow. It won't happen today or tommorow but someday and gradually.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:36:44 PM
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 10:32:29 PM
Yeah, on things like that middle-school form, where the individual student isn't going to be eligible for any special program or benefits based on what race they're classified as, just mark a box at random, 'cause it doesn't matter anyway. On the other hand, if you're the owner of a business and would like to get a govenment contract that has been earmarked to go to a minority owned business, identify yourself as being a member of the appropriate minority, if your physical appearance will let you pull it off.
Actually, it matters a great deal. In our district, a black student in Honors classes getting a C or lower as a grade will be matched with a tutor, brought in for an interview to determine why he or she isn't doing well, and basically watched over like a hawk. Any other student, on the other hand, won't even be brought in with a failing grade.
Well, then if there's a tangible benefit to the student to being registered as black, then do as Garbon suggests and register them as black if they can plausibly be considered black.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:40:27 PM
acted whiter than I do.
Of course this statement would piss my sister off mightily, she's convinced that one can't act white or act black.
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:42:03 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on August 13, 2009, 10:38:11 PM
Its just absolutely implausible, and I hear it often enough that I had to snort. If breeding was random instead of selection based, perhaps then sure. But as it is? Some dystopian nightmare from a world-that-isnt, and nothing more.
It only takes a couple each generation Lettow. It won't happen today or tommorow but someday and gradually.
That assumes that natural selection will stop selecting for skin color appropriate to latitude.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:43:43 PM
Of course this statement would piss my sister off mightily, she's convinced that one can't act white or act black.
It sounds like your sister and I would get along great. I used to really lash out in fury at the whole acting white or black thing.
I have mellowed out as I have gotten older though.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 13, 2009, 10:44:41 PM
That assumes that natural selection will stop selecting for skin color appropriate to latitude.
Um...I live in a place hardly suitable for people of Anglo-Saxon ancestry and last I checked our ability to reproduce has not been hindered by the evil yellow face in the sky.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:43:43 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:40:27 PM
acted whiter than I do.
Of course this statement would piss my sister off mightily, she's convinced that one can't act white or act black.
Is your sister an angry black chick?
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:40:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:36:20 PM
Oh well under that scheme, always opt for the minority box. You ain't ever going to get nothing for being white...whereas I quickly found that the black box opened up doors for scholarships.
Exactly, and I tell my mixed families that. "If you want more choices and more options, pick the "black" box." Hell, we had one kid in the school whose mother was 1/4 black (her grand mother was black), that Mom marked as black. He made it into a very privileged program academically because of it, though he looked and acted whiter than I do.
Well, in the bad old days, that kid would have been considered black, in theory. They called it the "one-drop rule" because, again, in theory, one drop of black blood made a person black, though my understanding is that in practice, if you were less than 1/8 black, you could usually pass as white with no problem (there being NO advantage in being black back then).
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 10:42:24 PM
Well, then if there's a tangible benefit to the student to being registered as black, then do as Garbon suggests and register them as black if they can plausibly be considered black.
Here's the part that confuses me. What is "plausibly considered black"? I'm sure, at some point my families 400 years in the United States, there was a black ancestor. Yes, I'm lily white now, but it stands to reason that somewhere, there was a black person between the sheets with a white one, even if the white one didn't know.
Do we go with the "one drop" rule? Or do we require documentation for "blackness" like we do for "Native American"?
College entrance committee: I'm sorry, but your black grandmother and your blue eyes do not qualify you for being black. Your brother's brown eyes, however, and kinky hair qualifies him.
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:46:23 PM
Is your sister an angry black chick?
Why does she have to be a black chick eh? Why can't she just be a chick? :angry:
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:46:22 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 13, 2009, 10:44:41 PM
That assumes that natural selection will stop selecting for skin color appropriate to latitude.
Um...I live in a place hardly suitable for people of Anglo-Saxon ancestry and last I checked our ability to reproduce has not been hindered by the evil yellow face in the sky.
Have you ever tried to have sex witha sunburn? i imagine it hurts like a bitch. i few more hole sin the ozone layer and the white race shall die in texas :P
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:45:22 PM
It sounds like your sister and I would get along great. I used to really lash out in fury at the whole acting white or black thing.
I have mellowed out as I have gotten older though.
The stereotypes of said groups exist though, and since such labels are really perpetuated labels (based on both color and actions), I can't see the harm in speaking with such terms.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:47:06 PM
I'm sorry, but your black grandmother and your blue eyes do not qualify you for being black. Your brother's brown eyes, however, and kinky hair qualifies him.
Which is why race, as mixed people become more common, will be more and more absurd.
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:47:37 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:46:23 PM
Is your sister an angry black chick?
Why does she have to be a black chick eh? Why can't she just be a chick? :angry:
Hey,i don't make the rules... i just rigidly follow them :D
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:47:51 PM
Have you ever tried to have sex witha sunburn? i imagine it hurts like a bitch. i few more hole sin the ozone layer and the white race shall die in texas :P
Texans of any race don't go outside in the summer anyway. Too damn hot
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:46:23 PM
Is your sister an angry black chick?
I don't presume to speak for her, but like what Valmy said, I suggest she'd give you a quizzical look. I don't think she'd call herself black anymore than she would call herself white.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 13, 2009, 10:44:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:42:03 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on August 13, 2009, 10:38:11 PM
Its just absolutely implausible, and I hear it often enough that I had to snort. If breeding was random instead of selection based, perhaps then sure. But as it is? Some dystopian nightmare from a world-that-isnt, and nothing more.
It only takes a couple each generation Lettow. It won't happen today or tommorow but someday and gradually.
That assumes that natural selection will stop selecting for skin color appropriate to latitude.
As long as we don't have a social collapse that leads to a dropping of our technology level, it probably will stop. As much time as most people spend indoors, it hardly matters.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:43:43 PM
Of course this statement would piss my sister off mightily, she's convinced that one can't act white or act black.
She's mistaken. I act more Mexican than I act white when I'm with my Mexican family and more white than Mexican when with my white family. At the same time, I act more white trash when with some of my family and more upper-white class when with others. My accent even changes depending on whom I'm speaking to when.
It's not conscious; it's just something that happens. In fact, I never even realized I did it until Max pointed it out to me. *shrugs*
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:48:30 PM
The stereotypes of said groups exist though, and since such labels are really perpetuated labels (based on both color and actions), I can't see the harm in speaking with such terms.
I know. Even though I think it is wrong I just have to accept stereotypes as part of being human. Becoming more tolerant of foibles is just part of growing up.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:49:34 PM
Quote from: HVC on August 13, 2009, 10:46:23 PM
Is your sister an angry black chick?
I don't presume to speak for her, but like what Valmy said, I suggest she'd give you a quizzical look. I don't think she'd call herself black anymore than she would call herself white.
As a minority i assume the right to use stereotypes!
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:47:06 PM
Here's the part that confuses me. What is "plausibly considered black"? I'm sure, at some point my families 400 years in the United States, there was a black ancestor. Yes, I'm lily white now, but it stands to reason that somewhere, there was a black person between the sheets with a white one, even if the white one didn't know.
Do we go with the "one drop" rule? Or do we require documentation for "blackness" like we do for "Native American"?
College entrance committee: I'm sorry, but your black grandmother and your blue eyes do not qualify you for being black. Your brother's brown eyes, however, and kinky hair qualifies him.
I've always wondered if people actually check up on that. Like when would a college check?
That said, I suppose there is no harm in trying for the minority box? :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:48:38 PM
Which is why race, as mixed people become more common, will be more and more absurd.
My people. :wub:
Actually it saddens me somewhat to know that my mother was concerned about marrying my father as she was concerned about how people might treat her children.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:50:04 PM
She's mistaken. I act more Mexican than I act white when I'm with my Mexican family and more white than Mexican when with my white family. At the same time, I act more white trash when with some of my family and more upper-white class when with others. My accent even changes depending on whom I'm speaking to when.
It's not conscious; it's just something that happens. In fact, I never even realized I did it until Max pointed it out to me. *shrugs*
Except that Mexican functions as a national label. I'm not really sure there is a Black nation.
*prepares to be beat down by the nation*
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:50:50 PM
I've always wondered if people actually check up on that. Like when would a college check?
That said, I suppose there is no harm in trying for the minority box? :lol:
I've wondered the same thing. If I tried to claim I was black would I get more than odd looks?
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:48:38 PM
Which is why race, as mixed people become more common, will be more and more absurd.
Until that happens, what is what?
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:50:31 PM
I know. Even though I think it is wrong I just have to accept stereotypes as part of being human. Becoming more tolerant of foibles is just part of growing up.
Yes, I agree on all counts. -_-
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:53:24 PM
Until that happens, what is what?
Why should one care? Be whatever you need to be when it is advantageous (and will be accepted).
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:52:44 PM
Except that Mexican functions as a national label. I'm not really sure there is a Black nation.
*prepares to be beat down by the nation*
I've seen mixed kids do the same thing. I only used my own experiences as an example, but know that it happens with a lot of people.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:53:24 PM
Until that happens, what is what?
Well for most of us it is still rather cut and dry. Mestizos seem to be counted as White for some reason and for everybody else you just give your best guess.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:54:45 PM
Why should one care? Be whatever you need to be when it is advantageous (and will be accepted).
Oh, I will, and am. I just wondered what others thought of the situation, as it's a major concern here in Champaign due to the court decree (which has, thankfully, been done away with as of this summer after a decade).
Quote from: Maximus on August 13, 2009, 10:53:10 PM
I've wondered the same thing. If I tried to claim I was black would I get more than odd looks?
Power to you, as long as you aren't being a jackass about it. I knew this one white dude who went around saying he was black because he found it amusing. Some people seemed to have believed him though from a stance of why would he lie about that?
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 10:42:24 PM
Well, then if there's a tangible benefit to the student to being registered as black, then do as Garbon suggests and register them as black if they can plausibly be considered black.
Here's the part that confuses me. What is "plausibly considered black"? I'm sure, at some point my families 400 years in the United States, there was a black ancestor. Yes, I'm lily white now, but it stands to reason that somewhere, there was a black person between the sheets with a white one, even if the white one didn't know.
Do we go with the "one drop" rule? Or do we require documentation for "blackness" like we do for "Native American"?
College entrance committee: I'm sorry, but your black grandmother and your blue eyes do not qualify you for being black. Your brother's brown eyes, however, and kinky hair qualifies him.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Yes, it's basically about your appearance. I've already said that. For probably at least 98% of the population of the U.S., it's obvious at a glance if a person is black (or partly black) or not. And the other 2% or so can usually get away with claiming to be black or not as they wish, as long as they don't claim in one place to be black and in another to be white (and even there they can probably get by with it as long as the bureaucrats they'll filling out forms for don't happen to compare notes and care).
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:56:41 PM
Oh, I will, and am. I just wondered what others thought of the situation, as it's a major concern here in Champaign due to the court decree (which has, thankfully, been done away with as of this summer after a decade).
Sorry, I read your statement as wondering what people should be considered to be. I they should just be considered people who sometimes don different hats when it suits them to do so.
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 10:57:47 PM
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Yes, it's basically about your appearance. I've already said that. For probably at least 98% of the population of the U.S., it's obvious at a glance if a person is black (or partly black) or not. And the other 2% or so can usually get away with claiming to be black or not as they wish, as long as they don't claim in one place to be black and in another to be white (and even there they can probably get by with it as long as the bureaucrats they'll filling out forms for don't happen to compare notes and care).
2% of people were said to be of mixed race in 2006, I'm sure there are probably more "ambiguous" individuals who do not identify as such.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 11:02:37 PM
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 10:57:47 PM
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Yes, it's basically about your appearance. I've already said that. For probably at least 98% of the population of the U.S., it's obvious at a glance if a person is black (or partly black) or not. And the other 2% or so can usually get away with claiming to be black or not as they wish, as long as they don't claim in one place to be black and in another to be white (and even there they can probably get by with it as long as the bureaucrats they'll filling out forms for don't happen to compare notes and care).
2% of people were said to be of mixed race in 2006, I'm sure there are probably more "ambiguous" individuals who do not identify as such.
Yeah, and for most of those 2% who were identified as mixed race, if they were 1/2 black, it's pretty obvious that they're partly black.
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 11:09:33 PM
Yeah, and for most of those 2% who were identified as mixed race, if they were 1/2 black, it's pretty obvious that they're partly black.
To whom? I personally think my racial heritage is pretty apparent (and many have suggested such) but many others have been confused (here let me speak hindi to you, where in india is your family from, do you know any good indian recipes?). Obviously they weren't confused as to whether or not I was white. :P
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 11:17:25 PM
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 11:09:33 PM
Yeah, and for most of those 2% who were identified as mixed race, if they were 1/2 black, it's pretty obvious that they're partly black.
To whom? I personally think my racial heritage is pretty apparent (and many have suggested such) but many others have been confused (here let me speak hindi to you, where in india is your family from, do you know any good indian recipes?). Obviously they weren't confused as to whether or not I was white. :P
Apparant to people who have some idea what Indians look like, I guess. :D
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 11:17:25 PM
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 11:09:33 PM
Yeah, and for most of those 2% who were identified as mixed race, if they were 1/2 black, it's pretty obvious that they're partly black.
To whom? I personally think my racial heritage is pretty apparent (and many have suggested such) but many others have been confused (here let me speak hindi to you, where in india is your family from, do you know any good indian recipes?). Obviously they weren't confused as to whether or not I was white. :P
LOL. A girl I knew was half Puerto Rican half Jewish. When she was in India, no one ever started a conversation in English. Fascinating that a racial mixture can produce people who clearly look like one ethnicity, clearly a mix of two obvious parts, or look like some random, totally unrelated ethnicity.
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 11:20:54 PM
Apparant to people who have some idea what Indians look like, I guess. :D
Actually Indians are who tried to speak Hindi to me. ;)
I think there is a basic fallacy in the question, and that is an assumption that the definition of race is universal, rather than culturally-specific to begin with.
The race means something different in the white-dominated West than in Eastern Asia, for example. I would say that the race is whatever the dominant culture and ethnicity in a given area considers to be a race.
For example, I'd say that in the white-dominated West, races are not equivalent in a logical sense. Essentially, imo, you are white only if you both biologically and culturally white. If either of this is absent, you are something else.
It's what the census office says you are.
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2009, 09:41:40 PM
Racially speaking, I'm 75% Buckeye & 25% West Virginian. I grew up in West Virginia. But now I live in Ohio. What am I??? :unsure:
A hick :P
Your race is a given, you are white/black/Jaron/whatever regardless of anything else. But that does not determine your personality traits one bit.
Quote from: Martinus on August 14, 2009, 02:11:01 AM
I think there is a basic fallacy in the question, and that is an assumption that the definition of race is universal, rather than culturally-specific to begin with.
The race means something different in the white-dominated West than in Eastern Asia, for example. I would say that the race is whatever the dominant culture and ethnicity in a given area considers to be a race.
For example, I'd say that in the white-dominated West, races are not equivalent in a logical sense. Essentially, imo, you are white only if you both biologically and culturally white. If either of this is absent, you are something else.
We're Americans, we don't give a fuck what happens in Fruitistan or Poland, for that matter.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2009, 02:30:57 AM
It's what the census office says you are.
The census office asks you...and depending on the options that they give you, you can be of different races. I remember learning that by the rules/organization of different census takings, I would have been black one year, white another (when children of mixed race were assigned their mother's race) and then mixed (had I been alive at all those points). That's not very good at telling me what my race is. :P
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 03:29:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2009, 02:30:57 AM
It's what the census office says you are.
The census office asks you...and depending on the options that they give you, you can be of different races. I remember learning that by the rules/organization of different census takings, I would have been black one year, white another (when children of mixed race were assigned their mother's race) and then mixed (had I been alive at all those points). That's not very good at telling me what my race is. :P
The question is what race are you. Not what race were you. If the census says that you were black one year and white another then that's how it is.
Tamas, given that hungarians are so gloomy, how can you say that?
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:28:56 PM
In the U.S. a person has the option of choosing "White - Non-Hispanic" or "Hispanic White". For most of my life, because of my genealogical roots, I've chosen the former. Lately - as in the last year or so - I've been choosing the later. This is becoming an issue because I am applying for grad school this fall, and I've put down that I am Hispanic, because that is what I am culturally. This means that according to the school, I am a minority.
You're being a tad dishonest, in my opinion. Hispanic is an ill-defined term, no doubt. It is not a racial classification, so a Hispanic can be white, Asian, black, etc. The "official" government definition follows:
QuoteHispanic Origin. Persons of Hispanic origin...are determined on the basis of question that asked for self-identification of the person's origin or descent. Persons of Hispanic origin, in particular, are those who indicated that their origin was Mexican-American, Chicano, Mexican, Mexicano, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Hispanic.
What's clear is that the basis of being Hispanic is one's origin or descent. Since your origin or descent, as far as you know, does not include anyone who is Hispanic claiming that you are Hispanic is kind of silly. Hispanic is basically a cultural/geographic term, but to be Hispanic you have to have been born in a Hispanic country or your blood parents or grandparents have to be Hispanic.
Luckily for you, no one "checks" your Hispanic-ness, so you should be fine, but I just think it would be embarrassing explaining to someone that you claim yourself as Hispanic on the basis of living with a Mexican family for several years and eating burritos.
You can be African and you can be Black, or you can be American or you can be White.
You can't be a White Black, but you can be a White African.
Race is biology and culture is something else.
Quote from: Lettow77 on August 13, 2009, 10:38:11 PM
Its just absolutely implausible, and I hear it often enough that I had to snort. If breeding was random instead of selection based, perhaps then sure. But as it is? Some dystopian nightmare from a world-that-isnt, and nothing more.
It's happening dude. My cousin and my step-sister are both married to black people. Then look at the forum- Hans, Jacob, *derspiess, and Gaijin all have interracial marriages, probably as well a few I'm forgetting or don't know about.
Quote from: stjaba on August 14, 2009, 05:36:10 AM
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:28:56 PM
In the U.S. a person has the option of choosing "White - Non-Hispanic" or "Hispanic White". For most of my life, because of my genealogical roots, I've chosen the former. Lately - as in the last year or so - I've been choosing the later. This is becoming an issue because I am applying for grad school this fall, and I've put down that I am Hispanic, because that is what I am culturally. This means that according to the school, I am a minority.
You're being a tad dishonest, in my opinion. Hispanic is an ill-defined term, no doubt. It is not a racial classification, so a Hispanic can be white, Asian, black, etc. The "official" government definition follows:
QuoteHispanic Origin. Persons of Hispanic origin...are determined on the basis of question that asked for self-identification of the person's origin or descent. Persons of Hispanic origin, in particular, are those who indicated that their origin was Mexican-American, Chicano, Mexican, Mexicano, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Hispanic.
What's clear is that the basis of being Hispanic is one's origin or descent. Since your origin or descent, as far as you know, does not include anyone who is Hispanic claiming that you are Hispanic is kind of silly. Hispanic is basically a cultural/geographic term, but to be Hispanic you have to have been born in a Hispanic country or your blood parents or grandparents have to be Hispanic.
Luckily for you, no one "checks" your Hispanic-ness, so you should be fine, but I just think it would be embarrassing explaining to someone that you claim yourself as Hispanic on the basis of living with a Mexican family for several years and eating burritos.
That's what I thought as well, seems to be a flimsy reasoning, IMO, unless there's more to it than what Meri is telling.
Quote from: Octavian on August 14, 2009, 02:31:32 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2009, 09:41:40 PM
Racially speaking, I'm 75% Buckeye & 25% West Virginian. I grew up in West Virginia. But now I live in Ohio. What am I??? :unsure:
A hick :P
:yes:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2009, 06:12:18 AM
It's happening dude. My cousin and my step-sister are both married to black people. Then look at the forum- Hans, Jacob, *derspiess, and Gaijin all have interracial marriages, probably as well a few I'm forgetting or don't know about.
*raises hand* :)
America is a strange place, over there race does seem to very much have culture tied into it.
Here though its just skin colour.
Blacks can be totally British and raised by whites but to suggest they're not black is silly.
Quote from: Peter WigginIt's happening dude. My cousin and my step-sister are both married to black people. Then look at the forum- Hans, Jacob, *derspiess, and Gaijin all have interracial marriages, probably as well a few I'm forgetting or don't know about.
Many would even go as far to say that interracial marriages aren't just normal and acceptable but even on a base biological level desirable- you would be naturally attracted to someone with radically different genes to yours.
(then of course counter to this there are some who hold you look for a partner that resembles your mother and...other oddness)
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 06:59:20 AM
*raises hand* :)
:huh:
You and Princesa both looked white in the photos I've seen.
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 06:59:20 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2009, 06:12:18 AM
It's happening dude. My cousin and my step-sister are both married to black people. Then look at the forum- Hans, Jacob, *derspiess, and Gaijin all have interracial marriages, probably as well a few I'm forgetting or don't know about.
*raises hand* :)
Give me a fucking break.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2009, 07:19:15 AM:huh:
You and Princesa both looked white in the photos I've seen.
She is Native American. :alberta:
Quote from: dps on August 13, 2009, 10:57:47 PM
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Yes, it's basically about your appearance. I've already said that. For probably at least 98% of the population of the U.S., it's obvious at a glance if a person is black (or partly black) or not. And the other 2% or so can usually get away with claiming to be black or not as they wish, as long as they don't claim in one place to be black and in another to be white (and even there they can probably get by with it as long as the bureaucrats they'll filling out forms for don't happen to compare notes and care).
:huh:
I'm not being obtuse at all. I simply disagree with you. Brothers of the same parents and one is black and the other is white simply because one looks more black or white than the other? That's simply stupid. My best friend looks Filipino but is half black and half Korean. By your statement, she's Filipino, even though no one in her bloodline is anywhere near that. Garbon looks Southeast Asian but he's half black and half white, and knows nothing about the culture or language, but to you he's Indian despite that?
I have always held that a person is what they self-identify as regardless of what color their skin, hair and eyes were. This eliminates all the muddy waters of family trees being confusing, adoption causing confusion, etc.
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 07:25:11 AM
I have always held that a person is what they self-identify as regardless of what color their skin, hair and eyes were. This eliminates all the muddy waters of family trees being confusing, adoption causing confusion, etc.
:yes:
I've just decided to be black, and I WANT ALL Y'ALL'S RESPECK. :mad:
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 07:25:11 AM
I have always held that a person is what they self-identify as regardless of what color their skin, hair and eyes were. This eliminates all the muddy waters of family trees being confusing, adoption causing confusion, etc.
The problem with race is that it's what other people think you are that matters. People can say they're whatever ethnicity they want to be and most people wont bat an eye. People say they're scottish when no one in there family has stepped in scotland in 200 years and no one will second guess them, but if i black guy says he's white it just won't fly. Some people are are left out of "general rule" becasue the fact there parents are different races, but they're an exception. I could self identify as south asian becasue somewhere along the line on of my ancestors were, but if everyone sees me as white then it won't matter what i think.
Quote from: stjaba on August 14, 2009, 05:36:10 AM
You're being a tad dishonest, in my opinion. Hispanic is an ill-defined term, no doubt. It is not a racial classification, so a Hispanic can be white, Asian, black, etc. The "official" government definition follows:
QuoteHispanic Origin. Persons of Hispanic origin...are determined on the basis of question that asked for self-identification of the person's origin or descent. Persons of Hispanic origin, in particular, are those who indicated that their origin was Mexican-American, Chicano, Mexican, Mexicano, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Hispanic.
What's clear is that the basis of being Hispanic is one's origin or descent. Since your origin or descent, as far as you know, does not include anyone who is Hispanic claiming that you are Hispanic is kind of silly. Hispanic is basically a cultural/geographic term, but to be Hispanic you have to have been born in a Hispanic country or your blood parents or grandparents have to be Hispanic.
Luckily for you, no one "checks" your Hispanic-ness, so you should be fine, but I just think it would be embarrassing explaining to someone that you claim yourself as Hispanic on the basis of living with a Mexican family for several years and eating burritos.
First, you're mistaken on my background. I was raised by a Mexican family. When someone asks my biological mother questions about my childhood, she defers to my foster mom. My entire childhood, from 3 to 13, was spent in their house as one of their family members. You're being a bit condescending here.
Second, the bolded part is the important part to me. Though my bloodline is white, I self-identify as Hispanic.
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 07:35:04 AM
Quote from: stjaba on August 14, 2009, 05:36:10 AM
You're being a tad dishonest, in my opinion. Hispanic is an ill-defined term, no doubt. It is not a racial classification, so a Hispanic can be white, Asian, black, etc. The "official" government definition follows:
QuoteHispanic Origin. Persons of Hispanic origin...are determined on the basis of question that asked for self-identification of the person's origin or descent. Persons of Hispanic origin, in particular, are those who indicated that their origin was Mexican-American, Chicano, Mexican, Mexicano, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Hispanic.
What's clear is that the basis of being Hispanic is one's origin or descent. Since your origin or descent, as far as you know, does not include anyone who is Hispanic claiming that you are Hispanic is kind of silly. Hispanic is basically a cultural/geographic term, but to be Hispanic you have to have been born in a Hispanic country or your blood parents or grandparents have to be Hispanic.
Luckily for you, no one "checks" your Hispanic-ness, so you should be fine, but I just think it would be embarrassing explaining to someone that you claim yourself as Hispanic on the basis of living with a Mexican family for several years and eating burritos.
First, you're mistaken on my background. I was raised by a Mexican family. When someone asks my biological mother questions about my childhood, she defers to my foster mom. My entire childhood, from 3 to 13, was spent in their house as one of their family members. You're being a bit condescending here.
Second, the bolded part is the important part to me. Though my bloodline is white, I self-identify as Hispanic.
So what do you have going on on you to make yourself identify as Hispanic? Which Hispanic cultural traits do you display?
Meri, if you were raised by a chinese family would you say you were chinese when asked?
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 07:43:43 AM
So what do you have going on on you to make yourself identify as Hispanic? Which Hispanic cultural traits do you display?
Maybe she likes bullfighting!
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:50:04 PM
She's mistaken. I act more Mexican than I act white when I'm with my Mexican family
How does one "act more Mexican"? Do you have an overwhelming compulsion to clean toilets or something? :huh:
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 07:47:03 AM
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:50:04 PM
She's mistaken. I act more Mexican than I act white when I'm with my Mexican family
How does one "act more Mexican"? Do you have an overwhelming compulsion to clean toilets or something? :huh:
She refuses to carry any and all badges :contract:
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2009, 07:46:22 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 07:43:43 AM
So what do you have going on on you to make yourself identify as Hispanic? Which Hispanic cultural traits do you display?
Maybe she likes bullfighting!
I don't like bullfighting, does that make me less Hispanic?
Then again, what would I be in the States? White? Hispanic?
Interesting anectdote - At a conference, a fellow I know from Africa was trying to point out someone he knew who was studying rituals (as I was at the time), and we had the hardest time coming to a mutual understanding of just who he was talking about. His "obvious markers" to identify this person included hair, face, and height - mine included skin, dress, and hair color. The "naturalness" of such things as race are not natural at all, they are learned like so many other things.
What makes a person a certain race? Well, being a member of H. apiens sapiens usually does the trick. Culture? Now that is another thing...
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 07:48:19 AM
I don't like bullfighting, does that make me less Hispanic?
Then again, what would I be in the States? White? Hispanic?
I think you would be thought of as 'white'. I think most people think of Hispanics as hailing from our various neighbors to the south, Haiti and Jamaica excluded. There are a couple of countries that would constitute gray areas, like Brazil and possibily the Philippines.
'Self identifying as hispanic' sounds like it needs to go under Stuff White People Like.
Goodness, but your white.
QuoteIt's happening dude. My cousin and my step-sister are both married to black people. Then look at the forum- Hans, Jacob, *derspiess, and Gaijin all have interracial marriages, probably as well a few I'm forgetting or don't know about.
It's happening, sure- and not on any massive scale. It will never happen on a massive enough scale to distinguish distinctive ethnicities.
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 07:48:19 AM
I don't like bullfighting, does that make me less Hispanic?
Then again, what would I be in the States? White? Hispanic?
1. Yes you are a traitor to your culture.
2. Spaniards are White and Hispanic in Texas. As I said we don't consider being Hispanic (though I hesitate to use that word...Latinos don't like being called Hispanic because it ties them to the hated imperial motherland or something) not a race but an ethnicity.
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 07:35:04 AM
Second, the bolded part is the important part to me. Though my bloodline is white, I self-identify as Hispanic.
Yeah, but that's just an affectation on your part. It's not uncommon for some people to emphasize any part of their heritage that differs from straight white. Thus, you get someone whose great-grandma was half-Indian going on and on about their Indian blood, for example.
Quote from: Lettow77 on August 14, 2009, 07:57:36 AM
It's happening, sure- and not on any massive scale. It will never happen on a massive enough scale to distinguish distinctive ethnicities.
We shall see -_-
Quote from: Neil on August 14, 2009, 07:59:36 AM
Yeah, but that's just an affectation on your part. It's not uncommon for some people to emphasize any part of their heritage that differs from straight white. Thus, you get someone whose great-grandma was half-Indian going on and on about their Indian blood, for example.
Princesca is Native American because the government says so (i.e. she is legally defined as such). On her father's side, her great-grandma was a full blooded Cherokee. On her mother's side, one of her great-grandmas was also a full blooded Cherokee, and one of her great-grandfathers was either a full blooded Cherokee or a Shawnee. :cool:
Neil hit the nail on the head in his analysis, as he invariably does.
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 08:04:14 AM
Princesca is Native American because the government says so (i.e. she is legally defined as such). On her father's side, her great-grandma was a full blooded Cherokee. On her mother's side, one of her great-grandmas was also a full blooded Cherokee, and one of her great-grandfathers was either a full blooded Cherokee or a Shawnee. :cool:
Does she complain about how the white devils stole her people's land?
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2009, 08:05:30 AMDoes she complain about how the white devils stole her people's land?
No, but I enjoy herding her into the basement with the dog, which I consider her reservation. Also, whenever I have the flu, I sneeze into a blanket which I later give to her as a "nice gesture". :)
You should stop paying taxes & open a casino then.
Meri,
What about black kids who are adopted by white families? Could they self-identify as white?
On another note, though the US government has a loose definition of what constitutes Hispanic, many colleges and scholarship programs have a stricter definition: It tends to be 1/4 Hispanic by blood.
And besides, I thought you were Welsh-American? Are you that and Hispanic?
Since I was mentioned... LOL.
I don't consider myself Native American. While I could legally claim to be such, I have not lived as a Native American, nor suffered the drawbacks of being Native American, so I would consider it an insult to a culture I respect to claim that I am a member of their race. I might have enough blood to claim it, but in every other respect I'm white.
Assuming you aren't in an interracial relationship, I think you are whatever race your kids would be, if you had them.
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 07:43:43 AM
So what do you have going on on you to make yourself identify as Hispanic? Which Hispanic cultural traits do you display?
I was 19 before I knew what the English word for "underwear". (They were casones(sp?) to me.) I still refer to things in Spanish without thinking about it, i.e. my daughter is "m'ja", rice is "sopa", and my nose is and has always been my "nadiz". I eat beans and rice with a torn off piece of tortilla at home rather than a fork. I no longer cross myself when I go by a cemetery or church, though I did for most of my life.
There are probably a lot more things, but in all honesty, I don't even recognize them as "different". It's what we do, how we live. Even my biological parents have adjusted and changed due to their close relationship with my foster parents. To my foster family, I am their daughter/sister, though I'm a "weda" (sp?). They are no less my family than my biological parents and siblings. When my foster father and sister died (at different times), my little sister and I were listed in the obituary as their immediate family, were included in the preparations, and were expected to be there with the family for all visitations, etc.
We were literally raised by these people. Much more so than by my biological parents.
PS I'm planning to scalp Cal tonight. Get good wampum for white man hair. Shhh... don't tell him.
Quote from: HVC on August 14, 2009, 07:45:13 AM
Meri, if you were raised by a chinese family would you say you were chinese when asked?
Of course. :huh:
But Meri - when Cal and I met you, I never would have guessed in a million years that you had -any- Mexican heritage whatsoever, genetic, culturally, or otherwise. I don't remember you making any references. To me, if you truly are Mexican, even a stranger who met you for casual conversation once would pick up on it.
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 07:47:03 AM
How does one "act more Mexican"? Do you have an overwhelming compulsion to clean toilets or something? :huh:
I speak with an accent (very slight, but it's there), I'm more demonstrative, etc.
Meri, I have a Strawberry crop next year that'll need to be picked. I offer 2 dollars an hour.
Quote from: Neil on August 14, 2009, 07:59:36 AM
Yeah, but that's just an affectation on your part. It's not uncommon for some people to emphasize any part of their heritage that differs from straight white. Thus, you get someone whose great-grandma was half-Indian going on and on about their Indian blood, for example.
I've thought that for a long time. That's why I've always claimed "White". And to an extent, I still agree with that. At the same time, I can see culture being the basis of racial claims, too.
None of it is cut and dried.
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 08:04:14 AM
Quote from: Neil on August 14, 2009, 07:59:36 AM
Yeah, but that's just an affectation on your part. It's not uncommon for some people to emphasize any part of their heritage that differs from straight white. Thus, you get someone whose great-grandma was half-Indian going on and on about their Indian blood, for example.
Princesca is Native American because the government says so (i.e. she is legally defined as such). On her father's side, her great-grandma was a full blooded Cherokee. On her mother's side, one of her great-grandmas was also a full blooded Cherokee, and one of her great-grandfathers was either a full blooded Cherokee or a Shawnee. :cool:
Then that's her cross to bear.
Still, I feel bad for her, that she's put into that class because of 3/8ths of her heritage. Still, it's not unreasonable for the government to consider people with more than 25% Indian ancestry to be potential Indians themselves.
Quote from: Princesca on August 14, 2009, 08:22:03 AM
I don't consider myself Native American.
Well, I consider you Native American, SAVAGE. :mad:
Quote from: Princesca on August 14, 2009, 08:24:48 AM
PS I'm planning to scalp Cal tonight. Get good wampum for white man hair. Shhh... don't tell him.
I have some shiny beads...can I have your house?
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 08:32:12 AM
Quote from: Neil on August 14, 2009, 07:59:36 AM
Yeah, but that's just an affectation on your part. It's not uncommon for some people to emphasize any part of their heritage that differs from straight white. Thus, you get someone whose great-grandma was half-Indian going on and on about their Indian blood, for example.
I've thought that for a long time. That's why I've always claimed "White". And to an extent, I still agree with that. At the same time, I can see culture being the basis of racial claims, too.
None of it is cut and dried.
Sure it is. I am the sword that cuts through these difficult problems.
Actually, in this real estate market, that might be a fair trade. :rolleyes:
Not reading this huge thread - but basically, one must disentangle "race" from "ethnicity".
In general, "ethnicity" is a more or less self-chosen identification with a particular group, very often defined both by cultural traits and descent from a real or fictive common ancestry or origin.
"Race" is a subset of that, in that the common ancesty or origin is defined, not by yourself, but rather by a real or alleged physical similarity or genetic commonality.
It is a peculiarity of the US that the Black "race" (and to a lesser extent native american "race") is subject to the 'one drop rule' - in that even the smallest amount of Black features suffices to catagorize one, in the eyes of others, as "Black".
So while in general ethnicity is more or less self chosen, in the specific case of Black Americans one will be considered "Black" even if one has no Black cultural traits and only a visible minimum of Black shared ancestry. In contrast, by and large a person of hispanic origin could, if they so choose, self-identify as "White American" by adopting White American traits and identifying themselves as White; similarly with Jews and the like.
Quote from: stjaba on August 14, 2009, 08:16:57 AM
Meri,
What about black kids who are adopted by white families? Could they self-identify as white?
On another note, though the US government has a loose definition of what constitutes Hispanic, many colleges and scholarship programs have a stricter definition: It tends to be 1/4 Hispanic by blood.
And besides, I thought you were Welsh-American? Are you that and Hispanic?
See, I would say that yes, black children adopted by white families can define themselves as white. And in fact, I suggested to the above-mentioned mother that she do just that with her mixed brood.
My biological family is Welsh - my great-grandfather and great-grandmother came to the states from Wales - but culturally, I'm not Welsh at all. In fact, I would say that any bit of Welsh I claim would be much more of an affectation that Mexican. And I still agree that by claiming a Mexican heritage it is an affectation, as well, just a more justified one.
Quote from: Princesca on August 14, 2009, 08:26:11 AM
But Meri - when Cal and I met you, I never would have guessed in a million years that you had -any- Mexican heritage whatsoever, genetic, culturally, or otherwise. I don't remember you making any references. To me, if you truly are Mexican, even a stranger who met you for casual conversation once would pick up on it.
In what way? What would you pick up? We didn't eat at a Mexican restaurant where you'd hear my accent, and you'd see how I eat. We didn't go dancing at a Mexican club where I could show off my mad-Mexican dancing skills.
We met at a pub and then went to a museum. What you saw were my mad-geek culture, the same as yours or Timmy's.
Speaking of which, Timmy was different than you or I, either. Does that make him less culturally Hispanic?
No, but I have truly hispanic friends who I can tell, from even a brief conversation, are hispanic. They might casually mention their abuela. They might have an accent. They (god forbid) LOOK hispanic. They might talk about their cousin's quinceanera. These are just examples.
I admit, I haven't read every thread you've ever posted in on Languish, but this is the first time, in all the years I've known of your existence, that I have ever heard you claim to be Mexican. I had no idea you even had any Mexican heritage, as aforementioned. My point is, you don't look Mexican, you didn't act in any respect Mexican, and I tend to think, if you truly are a race, it's something that comes to the fore wherever you are, not just when you're with Mexican relatives. I mean, if I stay a few weeks in Louisiana, I might pick up a Creole accent, but that doesn't make me Creole in any respect, nor does the fact that I might like and even know how to cook jambalaya.
I'm getting horny.
well, what makes me race is a good pair of trainers.
Quote from: Princesca on August 14, 2009, 08:53:38 AM
Caricature!
Tell us, how often does Cal eat at gas stations?
Quote from: Princesca on August 14, 2009, 08:48:51 AM
No, but I have truly hispanic friends who I can tell, from even a brief conversation, are hispanic. They might casually mention their abuela. They might have an accent. They (god forbid) LOOK hispanic. They might talk about their cousin's quinceanera. These are just examples.
I admit, I haven't read every thread you've ever posted in on Languish, but this is the first time, in all the years I've known of your existence, that I have ever heard you claim to be Mexican. I had no idea you even had any Mexican heritage, as aforementioned. My point is, you don't look Mexican, you didn't act in any respect Mexican, and I tend to think, if you truly are a race, it's something that comes to the fore wherever you are, not just when you're with Mexican relatives. I mean, if I stay a few weeks in Louisiana, I might pick up a Creole accent, but that doesn't make me Creole in any respect, nor does the fact that I might like and even know how to cook jambalaya.
I think that's a fair statement. I do know that I've mentioned my background numerous times here, though. However, while I may not have mentioned my niece's $10,000 quincenera here, I attended it, and my boys were two of her attendants. (I can post the pics, if you'd like.) I chose not to have a quincenera when I turned 15 because I was embarrassed to have one as a white girl, and I've carried that with me a long time. As this thread shows, I struggle with what I am: white or Mexican? I look white, people assume that I am white, and so I've stuck with that so as not to "pretend to be something I'm not."
That's since been shaken up by a lot of discussions here at the school about race and what it means to "decide" one's race, as many of our children and parents struggle with. My background came up in a discussion with our administrators, and my principal said that I was silly not to claim Mexican. (She's black.) It was the first time I'd heard that, and it made me think long and hard about it.
As I said, I still struggle with it - especially with reactions like yours, "You don't look or act Mexican, so you're white" - but I'm not as adverse to saying that I am one or the other. I am, in fact, both.
You can be Mexican if you want, but you'll never be a mestiza. As others, have said, Hispanic is not a race.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2009, 09:24:06 AM
You can be Mexican if you want, but you'll never be a mestiza. As others, have said, Hispanic is not a race.
Well, if we're going to be technical about it, shouldn't she have to obtain Mexican citizenship to be a Mexican? :)
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 09:24:47 AM
Well, if we're going to be technical about it, shouldn't she have to obtain Mexican citizenship to be a Mexican? :)
Yeah I call the locals Tejanos or Latinos. Most of them are no more Mexican than I am.
If you REALLY want to piss somebody off go to Santa Fe and call a local Latino, whose family has lived there for 500 years, a 'Mexican'. :lol:
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 07:25:11 AM
knows nothing about the culture or language, but to you he's Indian despite that?
Hey now, I studied Hindi for a year! :angry: :blush:
Quote from: Princesca on August 14, 2009, 08:48:51 AM
No, but I have truly hispanic friends who I can tell, from even a brief conversation, are hispanic. They might casually mention their abuela. They might have an accent. They (god forbid) LOOK hispanic. They might talk about their cousin's quinceanera. These are just examples.
I admit, I haven't read every thread you've ever posted in on Languish, but this is the first time, in all the years I've known of your existence, that I have ever heard you claim to be Mexican. I had no idea you even had any Mexican heritage, as aforementioned. My point is, you don't look Mexican, you didn't act in any respect Mexican, and I tend to think, if you truly are a race, it's something that comes to the fore wherever you are, not just when you're with Mexican relatives. I mean, if I stay a few weeks in Louisiana, I might pick up a Creole accent, but that doesn't make me Creole in any respect, nor does the fact that I might like and even know how to cook jambalaya.
I have to agree. Until last night, between having met Meri and the years on the board, I had no idea about her Mexican heritage. I think I might recall a very small mention about her foster parents, but I never realized it was such an important part of her identity. Cool. :)
Quote from: Malthus on August 14, 2009, 08:38:30 AM
"Race" is a subset of that, in that the common ancesty or origin is defined, not by yourself, but rather by a real or alleged physical similarity or genetic commonality.
It is a peculiarity of the US that the Black "race" (and to a lesser extent native american "race") is subject to the 'one drop rule' - in that even the smallest amount of Black features suffices to catagorize one, in the eyes of others, as "Black".
So while in general ethnicity is more or less self chosen, in the specific case of Black Americans one will be considered "Black" even if one has no Black cultural traits and only a visible minimum of Black shared ancestry. In contrast, by and large a person of hispanic origin could, if they so choose, self-identify as "White American" by adopting White American traits and identifying themselves as White; similarly with Jews and the like.
Actually, I think that's the simplistic version of it. After all, if you do have some (let's say distant) black heritage but your features aren't seen to be black, people aren't going to consider you black. It isn't so much about the actual drops involved but how people identify your features.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:23:49 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2009, 10:19:16 PM
What is the context? I think race in this country is completely self identified.
But if they are applying for a black scholarship or something they probably need to have the right physical traits.
In our school district, a child must pick a race - a single race - when they register for school. "Other" is not an option, neither is "mixed race". So, in order to register for school, the parents much choose a race. If one is not chosen, the default is "white".
Lame.... in this day and age Mixed heritage should be a very obvious option. If you are going to bother with such categorizing and racial profiling of children.
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 08:24:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 07:43:43 AM
So what do you have going on on you to make yourself identify as Hispanic? Which Hispanic cultural traits do you display?
I was 19 before I knew what the English word for "underwear". (They were casones(sp?) to me.) I still refer to things in Spanish without thinking about it, i.e. my daughter is "m'ja", rice is "sopa", and my nose is and has always been my "nadiz". I eat beans and rice with a torn off piece of tortilla at home rather than a fork. I no longer cross myself when I go by a cemetery or church, though I did for most of my life.
There are probably a lot more things, but in all honesty, I don't even recognize them as "different". It's what we do, how we live. Even my biological parents have adjusted and changed due to their close relationship with my foster parents. To my foster family, I am their daughter/sister, though I'm a "weda" (sp?). They are no less my family than my biological parents and siblings. When my foster father and sister died (at different times), my little sister and I were listed in the obituary as their immediate family, were included in the preparations, and were expected to be there with the family for all visitations, etc.
We were literally raised by these people. Much more so than by my biological parents.
I don't doubt your attachment to this family (some of the things you mention appear to be more a close relationship with them, which is perfectly understandable and normal), or that you have picked up things from them, but going as far as making you feel Hispanic seems quite weird from my point of view. Did you get to learn Spanish? You seem to have slipped a bit with it (It's calzones, mi hija and nariz. Sopa doesn't mean rice, but soup. It's arroz the word you're looking for).
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 09:27:38 PM
Is it their culture or their biology?
For instance, if a black person is adopted by a white family and raised culturally white, are they still "black"? Additionally, if a person has a Mexican father and a white mother, is raised not knowing Spanish but spends equal time with both, what race do they put down on the census form? (We're assuming no "other" exists on said form.)
My sister and I were raised Mexican culturally because we were fostered out when we were very young - I was three, my sister was two months old - and lived with said foster family until we were nearing our teen years. However, our biological family is Welsh and English, and we both lived with them during our teen years. My younger sister speaks Spanish fluently, but I only understand bits and pieces of it. What race are we?
P.S. Neil, I <3 you, but stay out. I'm seriously wondering what people think constitutes a "race" under these circumstances, sans troll.
What kind of faggoty ass third world country asks about "race" on a census form? That's beyond retarded.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 03:29:33 AM
That's not very good at telling me what my race is. :P
Oreo!
so kat, did you know Meri was your cousin? :)
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2009, 04:11:40 AM
If the census says that you were black one year and white another then that's how it is.
:D
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 12:48:55 PM
so kat, did you know Meri was your cousin? :)
I only know of three chicanos on this board, including myself and none of them are female.
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 12:05:31 PM
Did you get to learn Spanish? You seem to have slipped a bit with it (It's calzones, mi hija and nariz. Sopa doesn't mean rice, but soup. It's arroz the word you're looking for).
Well besides the sopa mis-translation, the others can be chalked up to never learning to write spanish and just trying phonetically mi compadre Larch :P
Quote from: katmai on August 14, 2009, 12:54:35 PM
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 12:48:55 PM
so kat, did you know Meri was your cousin? :)
I only know of three chicanos on this board, including myself and none of them are female.
Define chicanos.
Quote from: katmai on August 14, 2009, 12:54:35 PM
I only know of three chicanos on this board, including myself and none of them are female.
You, Jaron, Funk Monk?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 14, 2009, 12:58:05 PM
Quote from: katmai on August 14, 2009, 12:54:35 PM
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 12:48:55 PM
so kat, did you know Meri was your cousin? :)
I only know of three chicanos on this board, including myself and none of them are female.
Define chicanos.
Someone born in US who can trace their family back to mexico.
Of this board I know of
FunkMonk (Flip-i-can)
Jaron (by way of byzanteen)
myself
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2009, 12:58:52 PM
Quote from: katmai on August 14, 2009, 12:54:35 PM
I only know of three chicanos on this board, including myself and none of them are female.
You, Jaron, Funk Monk?
Si senor eduardo.
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 12:05:31 PM
mi hija
Perhaps you should know what you are talking about when you correct someone. The shorthand round here for "mi hija" is mi'ja or mija.
Mija (phonetically anyway) means to piss in portuguese. what does it mean in spanish?
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 11:35:25 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 14, 2009, 08:38:30 AM
"Race" is a subset of that, in that the common ancesty or origin is defined, not by yourself, but rather by a real or alleged physical similarity or genetic commonality.
It is a peculiarity of the US that the Black "race" (and to a lesser extent native american "race") is subject to the 'one drop rule' - in that even the smallest amount of Black features suffices to catagorize one, in the eyes of others, as "Black".
So while in general ethnicity is more or less self chosen, in the specific case of Black Americans one will be considered "Black" even if one has no Black cultural traits and only a visible minimum of Black shared ancestry. In contrast, by and large a person of hispanic origin could, if they so choose, self-identify as "White American" by adopting White American traits and identifying themselves as White; similarly with Jews and the like.
Actually, I think that's the simplistic version of it. After all, if you do have some (let's say distant) black heritage but your features aren't seen to be black, people aren't going to consider you black. It isn't so much about the actual drops involved but how people identify your features.
I suppose I should add "the smallest amount of Black features visible to others". Certainly in the past many were concerned about "passing" for White, if they could.
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 10:21:51 PM
Lately, whenever I fill out paperwork, I've been putting down Hispanic White (as opposed to Non-Hispanic White). It seems more honest, and yet to some, I could see this as being complete bunk.
:huh:
Quote from: katmai on August 14, 2009, 12:56:49 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 12:05:31 PM
Did you get to learn Spanish? You seem to have slipped a bit with it (It's calzones, mi hija and nariz. Sopa doesn't mean rice, but soup. It's arroz the word you're looking for).
Well besides the sopa mis-translation, the others can be chalked up to never learning to write spanish and just trying phonetically mi compadre Larch :P
That's why I said she was slipping. :P She got the gist of the thing, but missed a letter here and there.
And learning to write a language is part of the whole learning languages thing, it's not just about speaking. ;)
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 01:03:15 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 12:05:31 PM
mi hija
Perhaps you should know what you are talking about when you correct someone. The shorthand round here for "mi hija" is mi'ja or mija.
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish.
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 01:47:37 PM
And learning to write a language is part of the whole learning languages thing, it's not just about speaking. ;)
How dare you discrimate against illeterates :ultra: :P
Quote from: HVC on August 14, 2009, 01:51:00 PM
How dare you discrimate against illeterates :ultra: :P
Deliberate? :D
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 12:05:31 PM
I don't doubt your attachment to this family (some of the things you mention appear to be more a close relationship with them, which is perfectly understandable and normal), or that you have picked up things from them, but going as far as making you feel Hispanic seems quite weird from my point of view. Did you get to learn Spanish? You seem to have slipped a bit with it (It's calzones, mi hija and nariz. Sopa doesn't mean rice, but soup. It's arroz the word you're looking for).
Er.. no, I meant what I said. To my family, casones (again, I don't know the spelling, I never saw the word written down) were panties or underwear. Calzones are pizzas folded over. "M'ja" is the contraction of "mi hija", which means "my daughter". It's pronounced mee-ha, and I've never once heard anyone in my family pronounce it mi hija, as it two separate words. And I didn't remember the spelling of nariz because like casones, I don't remember seeing it written down.
As for rice, it's actually sopa arroz, which my family shortened to just "sopa". Interestingly, we just had a conversation about this with a young lady from Northern Mexico. She and her family called fidello "sopa" and rice "arroz", while my family called fidello, well, fidello, and rice "sopa". It seems to be a colloquialism depending on where in Mexico you're from.
My foster father was second generation and despised "wet backs". He did not speak Spanish in the house, nor did his children. To him, he was an American and the American language was English. My elder sisters (foster sisters) learned Spanish when they went to Mexico. My elder foster brother still doesn't know it. My younger biological sister is fluent in Spanish because she learned it from my elder sisters and their husbands (all three married Mexican Nationals). I studied Spanish in college but since I moved away from my family when I was 18, never practiced it at home, and was never fluent. I understand quite a bit more than I can speak, but that's not saying much.
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 01:47:37 PM
That's why I said she was slipping. :P She got the gist of the thing, but missed a letter here and there.
And learning to write a language is part of the whole learning languages thing, it's not just about speaking. ;)
:huh:
My nieces and nephews are fluent in Spanish, but can't read or write it. In fact, when I'd ask for help with my Spanish homework they were worse than helpless unless I spoke it out loud. I'm not slipping, as I never knew it. They're words that I may have seen once or twice in Spanish class, but they're words that I use daily, or at least weekly.
By the way, before you say that my nieces and nephews can't possibly be Mexican since they can't read or write the language, they were born in Mexico to Mexican parents with black hair, brown skin, and brown eyes.
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 01:48:15 PM
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish.
:huh:
What kind of Spanish? The spoken kind? Because if that's what you mean, it's quite clear that you're talking out of your ass.
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 01:48:15 PM
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish.
Spain is not the only source of Spanish. People definitely say mija here.
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 01:47:37 PM
And learning to write a language is part of the whole learning languages thing, it's not just about speaking. ;)
I'd be happy if a great emphasis was put on speaking. Here the emphasis is traditionally on reading and writing...which might help someone read a novel or chat online, but leaves you in a tough spot if you suddenly need to speak a language.
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 01:54:05 PMEr.. no, I meant what I said. To my family, casones (again, I don't know the spelling, I never saw the word written down) were panties or underwear. Calzones are pizzas folded over. "M'ja" is the contraction of "mi hija", which means "my daughter". It's pronounced mee-ha, and I've never once heard anyone in my family pronounce it mi hija, as it two separate words. And I didn't remember the spelling of nariz because like casones, I don't remember seeing it written down.
I guess that the difference is between Mexican Spanish and Spain's Spanish, as for instance there the sound z is pronounced more like s. As I said to garbon about the mi hija/m'ja thingie, there are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish, I guess it's something more coloquial in Mexican Spanish usage.
QuoteAs for rice, it's actually sopa arroz, which my family shortened to just "sopa". Interestingly, we just had a conversation about this with a young lady from Northern Mexico. She and her family called fidello "sopa" and rice "arroz", while my family called fidello, well, fidello, and rice "sopa". It seems to be a colloquialism depending on where in Mexico you're from.
Ok then. That one puzzled me, as they were totally different things. :lol:
QuoteMy foster father was second generation and despised "wet backs". He did not speak Spanish in the house, nor did his children. To him, he was an American and the American language was English. My elder sisters (foster sisters) learned Spanish when they went to Mexico. My elder foster brother still doesn't know it. My younger biological sister is fluent in Spanish because she learned it from my elder sisters and their husbands (all three married Mexican Nationals). I studied Spanish in college but since I moved away from my family when I was 18, never practiced it at home, and was never fluent. I understand quite a bit more than I can speak, but that's not saying much.
Personally I think it's a pity that 2nd generation immigrants loose their mother tongue. I can understand the need to integrate in the host country, but getting to the point of "erasing" your past, so to speak, seems to me a bit too much.
My ancestors spoke fluent German for like 7 generations following immigration. :)
I am only of the second generation to not speak it fluently. :blush:
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 02:11:17 PM
My ancestors spoke fluent German for like 7 generations following immigration. :)
I am only of the second generation to not speak it fluently. :blush:
Bund swine. Goddamn sauerkraut.
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 12:48:55 PM
so kat, did you know Meri was your cousin? :)
Keep this in mind: this is Languish. There are some things you share here, and other things you don't. I know that my foster family has come up - and the fact that they're Mexican. But no, I've never explained it in as much detail. As I've said, I've struggled with what all of this makes me, what it all means to me, etc. Not exactly the kind of thing you throw to the wolves, now, is it? ;)
That being said, I'm much more comfortable with where I fall now. Makes it easier to try to explain to someone else.
Meri, I was just messing with you... honestly I don't give a crap how you label yourself. :hug:
I do agree with what someone (forget who) said earlier that race is really mostly about how others perceive you rather than how you perceive yourself.
red headed latinas :mmm:
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 02:27:13 PM
As I've said, I've struggled with what all of this makes me, what it all means to me, etc.
It shouldn't make or mean anything. -_-
If a pig is born in a stable and spends all its time among the horses, is it then a horse? ;)
Quote from: Slargos on August 14, 2009, 02:50:20 PM
If a pig is born in a stable and spends all its time among the horses, is it then a horse? ;)
If a pig is raised by dogs and learns how to herd sheep, should it be allowed to enter the sheep herding competiton?
Quote from: Slargos on August 14, 2009, 02:50:20 PM
If a pig is born in a stable and spends all its time among the horses, is it then a horse? ;)
Aww, you fell into the trap of thinking that race is like species. :console:
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 02:32:27 PM
It shouldn't make or mean anything. -_-
No, and yet it does. Maybe because of the fostering situation, maybe because of the cultural implications, maybe because of the perceptions of others when I say and do things that to them must seem "affected".
It's just all a bit... difficult when you're not perfectly white and lovely like Neil. :)
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 02:54:03 PM
No, and yet it does. Maybe because of the fostering situation, maybe because of the cultural implications, maybe because of the perceptions of others when I say and do things that to them must seem "affected".
It's just all a bit... difficult when you're not perfectly white and lovely like Neil. :)
Obviously one's upbringing has an effect on one's person, but I don't really see what they has to do with struggling to find labels. I don't struggle with my racial identity, I'm just me. ;)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 14, 2009, 02:52:51 PM
Quote from: Slargos on August 14, 2009, 02:50:20 PM
If a pig is born in a stable and spends all its time among the horses, is it then a horse? ;)
If a pig is raised by dogs and learns how to herd sheep, should it be allowed to enter the sheep herding competiton?
A pertinent question.
I suppose if the pig has some sort of genetic advantage over dogs in sheepherding it would be unfair to let it partake, given the spirit of competition.
Given, however, that pigs generally don't herd sheep it can atleast be assumed that it is because they're no good at it, and therefore in the spirit of equal opportunities the pig should be allowed to compete.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 03:03:34 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 02:54:03 PM
No, and yet it does. Maybe because of the fostering situation, maybe because of the cultural implications, maybe because of the perceptions of others when I say and do things that to them must seem "affected".
It's just all a bit... difficult when you're not perfectly white and lovely like Neil. :)
Obviously one's upbringing has an effect on one's person, but I don't really see what they has to do with struggling to find labels. I don't struggle with my racial identity, I'm just me. ;)
Your struggle with race turned you gay.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 02:53:26 PM
Quote from: Slargos on August 14, 2009, 02:50:20 PM
If a pig is born in a stable and spends all its time among the horses, is it then a horse? ;)
Aww, you fell into the trap of thinking that race is like species. :console:
Yeah, I'm sorry. You're totally a white guy.
Quote from: garbon on August 13, 2009, 10:41:45 PM
Yep, that's what my white mother told me as well. If they want to offer the handout, I'll be happy to take it :)
:bleeding: My kid will not do that.
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2009, 03:09:41 PM
:bleeding: My kid will not do that.
Why not take free perks? :unsure:
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 03:11:54 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2009, 03:09:41 PM
:bleeding: My kid will not do that.
Why not take free perks? :unsure:
Real perks can't be taken. They must be given.
I'll take the bloody mess perk.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 03:11:54 PM
Why not take free perks? :unsure:
Dignity.
And not wanting to validate such a flawed system that doles out jobs/benefits/educational opportunities based upon race or ethnicity or whatever.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 14, 2009, 03:17:58 PM
I'll take the bloody mess perk.
I never chose that one. Is it worth it?
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2009, 03:22:04 PM
And not wanting to validate such a flawed system that doles out jobs/benefits/educational opportunities based upon race or ethnicity or whatever.
:thumbsup:
My official position to government programs:
Is to grab everything not nailed down.
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2009, 03:22:04 PM
Dignity.
And not wanting to validate such a flawed system that doles out jobs/benefits/educational opportunities based upon race or ethnicity or whatever.
I still have my dignity. I don't feel cheapened because fools handed me benefits. (Nor did I feel cheapened when the government sent us all checks, though I wondered why...)
The system is always flawed. Opting out amounts to putting yourself at a disadvantage...not really sure who gains there. :unsure:
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 14, 2009, 03:27:58 PM
My official position to government programs:
Is to grab everything not nailed down.
:yes:
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 01:58:32 PM
By the way, before you say that my nieces and nephews can't possibly be Mexican since they can't read or write the language, they were born in Mexico to Mexican parents with black hair, brown skin, and brown eyes.
Can't comment. My Mexican friends are all blue-eyed blondes. And not any less Mexican for it.
Merithyn, you confuse culture with race. As said, one comes from nurture [and it can be changed if one truly wants it], other comes from nature and cannot be changed, ever. If you identify yourself with Mexican culture, you may as well adopt it totally and request Mexican citizenship - but that will not change your race, at best your ethnicity (I believe the Americans would then classify you as 'Hispanic').
See Michael Jackson as an example: even though he surgically changed himself, even to the point of marrying white women and claiming that he could father absolutely white kids, he was always black and was presented as an african-american icon at his funeral (wonder what he himself would have thought about that).
For race, skin colour is the least important issue. Today science pays little attention to it. What is used to determine it is molecular biology (each race is "built" differently at a molecular level. In other words, a Chinaman has a molecular structure that is not similar to that of, say, an Arab, and vice-versa).
So, to know your race, just take a blood sample and send it to a molecular lab. They'll de-construct your molecular structure and tell you from where your ancestors came and to whom you belong to (or to which groups, in case there is a mixed heritage).
Quote from: Martim Silva on August 14, 2009, 03:48:18 PM
Merithyn, you confuse culture with race.
I'm not sure I confused anything. I simply disagreed with you that one is not the other. It is my opinion - and since race is a social construct anyway, my opinion is a valid as anyone else's - that culture can and should be a valued part in deciding who belongs to which racial group.
What you're describing isn't race anymore than your idea that culture isn't what makes a person a particular race. It's an indicator of what your genetic pool is, but not what "race" you belong to. My best friend, after all, wouldn't find out what race she was from it, as she is more than one (several in fact, being part Indian, part black, and part Korean among many other things).
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2009, 03:22:04 PM
And not wanting to validate such a flawed system that doles out jobs/benefits/educational opportunities based upon race or ethnicity or whatever.
:thumbsup:
Oh come one, you would take it if it were offered to you. You were pleased as punch about how much Pork your Senator brings to your state.
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 04:52:34 PM
I'm not sure I confused anything. I simply disagreed with you that one is not the other. It is my opinion - and since race is a social construct anyway, my opinion is a valid as anyone else's - that culture can and should be a valued part in deciding who belongs to which racial group.
What you're describing isn't race anymore than your idea that culture isn't what makes a person a particular race. It's an indicator of what your genetic pool is, but not what "race" you belong to. My best friend, after all, wouldn't find out what race she was from it, as she is more than one (several in fact, being part Indian, part black, and part Korean among many other things).
I think you are confusing race and nationality. To me, Korean or Indian aren't "races," they are nationalities. But that is besides the point.
----
I admit I sympathize with the notion of self-identity. How you identify yourself is important. However I know Hispanics who were born in other countries(Cuba, Mexico) who self identify not as Cuban or Mexican, but as American or alternatively as Mexican-American, which makes your self-identification as Mexican look absurd. to me. Based on evidence posted by you and others, it seems like your cultural identity is primarily American. There may be Mexican influence in who you are, but to claim you are primarily a "White Hispanic" as opposed to a plain old White just seems like you are emphasizing a secondary part of your identity for the purpose of standing out on grad school applications.
Quote from: Martim Silva on August 14, 2009, 03:48:18 PMSee Michael Jackson as an example: even though he surgically changed himself, even to the point of marrying white women and claiming that he could father absolutely white kids, he was always black and was presented as an african-american icon at his funeral (wonder what he himself would have thought about that).
Regardless of how Michael Jackson looked, he consistently described himself as an African-American, indicated he was proud of his heritage, and surrounded himself with an African-American posse for his entire life. I really see no reason to doubt his vitiligo claims given all of that behavior.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 14, 2009, 05:35:35 PM
Oh come one, you would take it if it were offered to you. You were pleased as punch about how much Pork your Senator brings to your state.
We need the help. :blush:
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on August 14, 2009, 11:55:10 AM
Lame.... in this day and age Mixed heritage should be a very obvious option. If you are going to bother with such categorizing and racial profiling of children.
In the US they are required to racially profile the children, for Affirmative Action reasons.
Quote from: Caliga on August 14, 2009, 09:24:47 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 14, 2009, 09:24:06 AM
You can be Mexican if you want, but you'll never be a mestiza. As others, have said, Hispanic is not a race.
Well, if we're going to be technical about it, shouldn't she have to obtain Mexican citizenship to be a Mexican? :)
That's the crux of what I've been trying to get across to her. She keeps talking about stuff that relates to nationality and culture, neither of which (in an American context) have anything to do with race. Race is genetic; it's about physical traits. What language you speak, or what kind of accent that you have, are completely irrelevant.
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 03:39:55 PM
I still have my dignity. I don't feel cheapened because fools handed me benefits. (Nor did I feel cheapened when the government sent us all checks, though I wondered why...)
You may not have
felt cheapened, but you were.
Quote from: derspiess on August 14, 2009, 08:59:45 PM
You may not have felt cheapened, but you were.
Okay. :rolleyes:
Actually, I recall saving several thousand dollars. ^_^
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 01:03:15 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 12:05:31 PM
mi hija
Perhaps you should know what you are talking about when you correct someone. The shorthand round here for "mi hija" is mi'ja or mija.
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish.
:rolleyes: every language has shorthand, amigo.
Especially in America. They can will, and, are ruin(ing) your language just like they ruined English.
it's a fact. The Brits have given up on correcting them... Spain will have to learn as Spanish becomes more used in America everyday, it will get melting potted.
Quote from: Neil on August 14, 2009, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on August 14, 2009, 11:55:10 AM
Lame.... in this day and age Mixed heritage should be a very obvious option. If you are going to bother with such categorizing and racial profiling of children.
In the US they are required to racially profile the children, for Affirmative Action reasons.
sad... this is why America isn't as Great as it used to be.
Quote from: Lettow77 on August 14, 2009, 07:57:36 AM
It's happening, sure- and not on any massive scale. It will never happen on a massive enough scale to distinguish distinctive ethnicities.
In around ten years the UK's largest and fastest growing ethnic minority will be people of mixed race. I believe Mark Steyn has a book coming out bemoaning Brasilondon :)
Quote from: stjaba on August 14, 2009, 06:57:07 PM
I admit I sympathize with the notion of self-identity. How you identify yourself is important. However I know Hispanics who were born in other countries(Cuba, Mexico) who self identify not as Cuban or Mexican, but as American or alternatively as Mexican-American, which makes your self-identification as Mexican look absurd. to me. Based on evidence posted by you and others, it seems like your cultural identity is primarily American. There may be Mexican influence in who you are, but to claim you are primarily a "White Hispanic" as opposed to a plain old White just seems like you are emphasizing a secondary part of your identity for the purpose of standing out on grad school applications.
Actually, I identify as Mexican-American, not Mexican. I just never bothered to add the "-American" at the end in this thread. I assumed that was a given. I apologize for the omission.
Quote from: dps on August 14, 2009, 08:47:23 PM
That's the crux of what I've been trying to get across to her. She keeps talking about stuff that relates to nationality and culture, neither of which (in an American context) have anything to do with race. Race is genetic; it's about physical traits. What language you speak, or what kind of accent that you have, are completely irrelevant.
Erm... I'm saying that imo culture should be part of what helps identify race. I thought I'd said this several times already. In addition, as Hispanics aren't a racial group, but a subset of "White", how else would one handle the question of whether a person is Hispanic other than by culture? Especially as many Cubans look black, many Puerto Ricans look white, and there's a slew of other Hispanic folk that fall in between?
Quote from: Neil on August 14, 2009, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on August 14, 2009, 11:55:10 AM
Lame.... in this day and age Mixed heritage should be a very obvious option. If you are going to bother with such categorizing and racial profiling of children.
In the US they are required to racially profile the children, for Affirmative Action reasons.
In this particular case, it's because there was a lawsuit against the district for mistreatment of black children. Unfortunately, it was not a baseless lawsuit, and for the past 10 years, the district has been changing their incredibly racist policies to fix the situation. (Things like testing all black kids of low-SES for special ed and all white kids of high-SES for gifted, and ne'er the twain shall meet.)
In order to fix the inequities and to accommodate court mandated changes, they had to know which kids were which race. "Mixed" wasn't an option in the courts, so it couldn't be an option on the registration forms. In fact, I had a fit when I moved here and found that children were forced to choose one parent's ethnicity over another's, disregarding half their heritage. I asked what would happen if I chose nothing, and was told that it would default to white.
Luckily, the consent decree that we were under ended as of the beginning of this month, so the school district can now go based off Socio-Economic Status (SES) rather than race, as the Supreme Court dictated last year.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on August 14, 2009, 09:22:48 PM
sad... this is why America isn't as Great as it used to be.
Well we have never not done this so why were we great before?
QuoteOutline of Human Racial Classification:
SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA GROUP
I. Capoid or Khoisanid Subspecies of southern Africa
A. Khoid (Hottentot) race
B. Sanid (Bushmen) race
II. Congoid Subspecies of sub-Saharan Africa
A. Central Congoid race (Geographic center and origin in the Congo river basin)
1. Palaecongoid subrace (the Congo river basin: Ivory Coast, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, Congo, Angola)
2. Sudanid subrace (western Africa: Niger, Mali, Senegal, Guinea)
3. Nilotid subrace (southern Sudan; the ancient Nubians were of this subrace)
4. Kafrid or Bantid subrace (east and south Africa: Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, Natal)
B. Bambutid race (African Pygmies)
C. Aethiopid race (Ethiopia, Somalia; hybridized with Caucasoids)
"OUT-OF-AFRICA" GROUP
I. Caucasoid or Europid Subspecies
A. Mediterranid race
1. West Mediterranean or Iberid subrace (Spain, Portugal, Corsica, Sardinia, and coastal areas of Morocco and Tunisia; the Atlanto-Mediterranean peoples who expanded over much of the Atlantic coastal regions of Europe during the Mesolithic period were a branch of this subrace)
2. East Mediterranean or Pontid subrace (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria; Aegean coasts of Greece and Turkey)
3. Dinaricized Mediterraneans (Residual mixed types resulting from the blending of Mediterranids with Dinarics, Alpines or Armenids; not a unified type, has much regional variation; predominant element [over 60%] in Sicily and southern Italy, principal element in Turkey [35%], important element in western Syria, Lebanon and central Italy, common in northern Italy. The ancient Cappadocian Mediterranean subrace of Anatolia was dinaricized during the Bronze Age [second millennium B.C.] and is a major contributor to this type in modern Turkey.)
4. South Mediterranean or Saharid subrace (predominant in Algeria and Libya, important in Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt)
5. Orientalid or Arabid subrace (predominant in Arabia, major element from Egypt to Syria, primary in northern Sudan, important in Iraq, predominant element among the Oriental Jews)
B. Dinaric race (predominant in western Balkans [Dinaric Mountains] and northern Italy, important in the Czech Republic, eastern and southern Switzerland, western Austria and eastern Ukraine. Its distribution in Europe, and that of its derived Dinaricized Mediterranean type, may be associated with the expansion of the Neolithic Anatolian farmers beginning circa 6,500 B.C.)
C. Alpine race (predominant element in Luxembourg, primary in Bavaria and Bohemia, important in France, Hungary, eastern and southern Switzerland)
D. Ladogan race (named after Lake Ladoga; indigenous to Russia; includes Lappish subrace of arctic Europe)
E. Nordish or Northern European race (various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary)
F. Armenid race (predominant element in Armenia, common in Syria, Lebanon and northern Iraq, primary element among the Ashkenazic Jews)
G. Turanid race (partially hybridized with Mongoloids; predominant element in Kazakhstan.; common in Hungary and Turkey)
H. Irano-Afghan race (predominant in Iran and Afghanistan, primary element in Iraq, common [25%] in Turkey)
I. Indic or Nordindid race (Pakistan and northern India)
J. Dravidic race (India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka [Ceylon]; ancient stabilized Indic-Veddoid [Australoid] blend)
II. Australoid Subspecies
A. Veddoid race (remnant Australoid population in central and southern India)
B. Negritos (remnants in Malaysia and the Philippines)
C. Melanesian race (New Guinea, Papua, Solomon Islands)
D. Australian-Tasmanian race (Australian Aborigines)
III. Mongoloid Subspecies
A. Northeast Asian or Northern Mogoloid race (various subraces in China, Manchuria, Korea and Japan)
B. Southeast Asian or Southern Mongoloid race (various subraces in southwest China, Indochina, Thailand, Myanmar [Burma], Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines, the last four partly hybridized with Australoids)
C. Micronesian-Polynesian race (predominantly Southern Mongoloid partly hybridized with Australoids)
D. Ainuid race (remnants of aboriginal population in northern Japan)
E. Tungid race (Mongolia and Siberia, Eskimos)
F. Amerindian race (American Indians; various subraces) [/s]
Quote from: merithyn on August 13, 2009, 09:27:38 PM
Is it their culture or their biology?
For instance, if a black person is adopted by a white family and raised culturally white, are they still "black"? Additionally, if a person has a Mexican father and a white mother, is raised not knowing Spanish but spends equal time with both, what race do they put down on the census form? (We're assuming no "other" exists on said form.)
My sister and I were raised Mexican culturally because we were fostered out when we were very young - I was three, my sister was two months old - and lived with said foster family until we were nearing our teen years. However, our biological family is Welsh and English, and we both lived with them during our teen years. My younger sister speaks Spanish fluently, but I only understand bits and pieces of it. What race are we?
P.S. Neil, I <3 you, but stay out. I'm seriously wondering what people think constitutes a "race" under these circumstances, sans troll.
Why do you care? :huh:
And you're not welsh or english or latino. You're american, with pale skin. Nothing wrong with that.
I thought this was a joke to begin with.
I guess this is where we've gotten with the extreme relativism of the last couple of decades.
Is Albert Einstein to blame with his extremely poor choice of wording?
Makes me wonder, what if anything will replace the social fabric when rules and structures are replaced in importance by "how do YOU feel about that?"
I think it's kinda funny that for all the talk about the melting pot and American dream, so many Americans seem to be obsessed about their ethnic heritage.
QuoteE. Nordish or Northern European race (various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary)
I'm cousins with Syt and Oglek. :(
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 10:23:58 PM
Quote from: dps on August 14, 2009, 08:47:23 PM
That's the crux of what I've been trying to get across to her. She keeps talking about stuff that relates to nationality and culture, neither of which (in an American context) have anything to do with race. Race is genetic; it's about physical traits. What language you speak, or what kind of accent that you have, are completely irrelevant.
Erm... I'm saying that imo culture should be part of what helps identify race. I thought I'd said this several times already. In addition, as Hispanics aren't a racial group, but a subset of "White", how else would one handle the question of whether a person is Hispanic other than by culture? Especially as many Cubans look black, many Puerto Ricans look white, and there's a slew of other Hispanic folk that fall in between?
That doesn't make sense at all. Only because Hispanic is a subset of Caucasian doesn't mean it is not a group that can be distinguished by some sort of a biological/genetic make-up.
A Swedish kid raised by a Latino family does not become "Hispanic" as a result.
Quote from: Martim Silva on August 14, 2009, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 01:58:32 PM
By the way, before you say that my nieces and nephews can't possibly be Mexican since they can't read or write the language, they were born in Mexico to Mexican parents with black hair, brown skin, and brown eyes.
Can't comment. My Mexican friends are all blue-eyed blondes. And not any less Mexican for it.
Merithyn, you confuse culture with race. As said, one comes from nurture [and it can be changed if one truly wants it], other comes from nature and cannot be changed, ever. If you identify yourself with Mexican culture, you may as well adopt it totally and request Mexican citizenship - but that will not change your race, at best your ethnicity (I believe the Americans would then classify you as 'Hispanic').
See Michael Jackson as an example: even though he surgically changed himself, even to the point of marrying white women and claiming that he could father absolutely white kids, he was always black and was presented as an african-american icon at his funeral (wonder what he himself would have thought about that).
For race, skin colour is the least important issue. Today science pays little attention to it. What is used to determine it is molecular biology (each race is "built" differently at a molecular level. In other words, a Chinaman has a molecular structure that is not similar to that of, say, an Arab, and vice-versa).
So, to know your race, just take a blood sample and send it to a molecular lab. They'll de-construct your molecular structure and tell you from where your ancestors came and to whom you belong to (or to which groups, in case there is a mixed heritage).
I'm pretty sure races do not differ at a
molecular level. :D
Unless you mean races like Silicoid and Klackons. :P
If you honestly feel that your Mexican upbringing stoppedyou getting the grades/qualifications you would otherwise have got, then for the purposes of application forms then it's fair to count yourself as Mexican.
Since it's subjective, the whole area is gray. Really, to make positive discrimination work properly, there needs to be some sort of objective assessment of the effects of culture/race for each individual.
Quote from: swallow on August 15, 2009, 06:55:32 AM
If you honestly feel that your Mexican upbringing stoppedyou getting the grades/qualifications you would otherwise have got, then for the purposes of application forms then it's fair to count yourself as Mexican.
This is an interesting take. No, I do not feel as though they have stopped me getting the grades/qualifications that I would otherwise have gotten. Quite the opposite, in fact. I feel that my Mexican upbringing has given me an insight and grasp of the culture that others who were not raised in a similar culture would not and do not have. This has given me an "inside view" as it were. I have the best of both worlds.
The program that I am going into at the University (assuming I get in) is studying how a child's non-English first language affects their English reading scores and how best to help them when they struggle. In particular, how to identify reading struggles as language-based vs. other concerns, i.e. dyslexia, comprehension concerns, etc.
I spent a great deal of time with my Mexican-born nieces and nephews (they were adopted by my eldest sister when they were very young) helping them learn to read. They were (and are) fluent in Spanish, but have little to no accent when speaking English, so teachers disregarded their reading problems as being cognitive-based rather than language-based, and instead put all of them through a battery of tests for learning disabilities. Because I understood the Spanish aspect and knew what the situation was, I was able to help them. I tutored them for a number of years, helping them make the leap.
What confused their teachers was that they didn't succeed in an ESL program, either, because they had no idea how to read or write in Spanish. Since they couldn't read or write in English or Spanish, they must have had cognitive concerns rather than language ones, according to the teachers. Besides, even if they spoke Spanish, their English was perfect, so it just couldn't be language-based.
I want to work to find a way to help kids like this that fall in the "in-between". Given my unique upbringing, I feel like I can do that. I will earn no extra admission perks for claiming a Mexican-American heritage, but I will be more likely to receive an assistantship over an Anglo-raised person. I don't think that's "cheating" since I'll bring to the table the same kind of experience as someone who is "truly" Mexican-American.
Quote from: swallow on August 15, 2009, 06:55:32 AM
Since it's subjective, the whole area is gray. Really, to make positive discrimination work properly, there needs to be some sort of objective assessment of the effects of culture/race for each individual.
Oh, I agree completely that it's all a gray area, which is why I'm highly amused by the absolute responses here.
Have I been discriminated against because of my upbringing? Absolutely not. It's opened doors for me that would otherwise have been closed because I had insight that benefited others. Have I been witnessed and been party to discrimination while participating in life with my family? Yes, I have, though I would never claim that it devastated my life. Minor annoyances at best. Of course, my family would say the same, as they live in a Mexican-dominated community. (I moved out when I was 18, so it's not my community anymore.)
But I understand what you're saying and agree that this is an important part of the puzzle. I think others here have been trying to say something similar when they say that how one looks is the important part because it's how others perceive and treat you that's the "racial" component. I don't disagree. As a genetically white woman, I will never see the kind of overt, blatant racism that my older siblings could see, which sets me apart from them. At the same time, that also means that people say incredibly ignorant and racist things around me that they wouldn't dare say around a Latino that hurt me no less than they would my family.
Quote from: Martinus on August 15, 2009, 03:20:04 AM
QuoteE. Nordish or Northern European race (various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary)
I'm cousins with Syt and Oglek. :(
Aren't Finns and Estonians Asiatics (if highly interbred with Europeans)?
Marty is a Tartar.
Looks like you've got your covering letter sorted out and sound like you're ideally suited to what you've chosen to do. Very best of luck and maybe sometime, we'll see you preparing some of those objective assessments. :thumbsup:
Description? Partially Mexicanised American
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 15, 2009, 08:19:12 AM
Marty is a Tartar.
Russian. He's a straight-up Russian.
Quote from: Martinus on August 15, 2009, 03:17:02 AM
I think it's kinda funny that for all the talk about the melting pot and American dream, so many Americans seem to be obsessed about their ethnic heritage.
I thought the melting pot metaphor had been given up for the mixed salad? After all, it is pretty clear that we didn't just meld into one culture/race. Subcultures abound.
To have had a real melting pot the temperatures would have had to have been much higher.
Quote from: PDH on August 15, 2009, 10:14:30 AM
To have had a real melting pot the temperatures would have had to have been much higher.
:yes:
I think some of you don't know what a "subset" is.
So wait meri is planning on apply to school as white hispanic?
So I guess I should start calling her mrs. Dorsey4heisman.
Quote from: Valmy on August 14, 2009, 11:06:48 PM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on August 14, 2009, 09:22:48 PM
sad... this is why America isn't as Great as it used to be.
Well we have never not done this so why were we great before?
sorry forgot the [neil] [/neil] enclosures in that post... was trolling. :p
Quote from: katmai on August 15, 2009, 01:55:15 PM
So wait meri is planning on apply to school as white hispanic?
So I guess I should start calling her mrs. Dorsey4heisman.
No shit. I might as well start claiming hispandex, since I can speak (and read) Spanish, have spent time in Argentina & Mexico, and hang out with many
hispanohablantes.
Quote from: derspiess on August 15, 2009, 02:17:05 PM
No shit. I might as well start claiming hispandex, since I can speak (and read) Spanish, have spent time in Argentina & Mexico, and hang out with many hispanohablantes.
Might as well. You making that claim is no more absurd than Martim Silva's claim that "races" differ on a molecular level! :lol:
I must admit, I was enjoying this vast display of "knowledge" about "race" far too much to get involved until it looked like it was over.
To answer Meri's question, one's "race" is created by a mixture of what one believes about one's self, and what others believe about one. It's kinda like "what make a nation a nation?" - it is an identity-construct, which has both internal and external dimensions. "Race" is important because racism is important. If we can get rid of racism, we will no longer need the concept of "race" (because, ultimately, all racism
is is a belief that "races" exist within the human race).
Good old grumbler. So reliable.
Quote from: katmai on August 15, 2009, 01:55:15 PM
So wait meri is planning on apply to school as white hispanic?
So I guess I should start calling her mrs. Dorsey4heisman.
I'm Hispanic, from Hispania.
Quote from: katmai on August 15, 2009, 01:55:15 PM
So wait meri is planning on apply to school as white hispanic?
So I guess I should start calling her mrs. Dorsey4heisman.
So Meri = wannabeaner? :unsure:
Quote from: The Brain on August 15, 2009, 05:43:06 PM
Good old grumbler. So reliable.
Da Truth is always reliable. :cheers:
Quote from: derspiess on August 15, 2009, 07:15:40 PM
Quote from: katmai on August 15, 2009, 01:55:15 PM
So wait meri is planning on apply to school as white hispanic?
So I guess I should start calling her mrs. Dorsey4heisman.
So Meri = wannabeaner? :unsure:
Vanillabeaner? Whiteback?
Quote from: katmai on August 15, 2009, 01:55:15 PM
So wait meri is planning on apply to school as white hispanic?
So I guess I should start calling her mrs. Dorsey4heisman.
I'm intending to talk to the admissions Dean about the possibility based on my background. If she gives the okay, then I will, otherwise, no. I'm not interested in committing fraud.
I was sure it was this one.
Quote from: Siege on August 16, 2009, 09:07:36 PM
I was sure it was this one.
:lol:
I'd go ahead and tell you which thread, but I forgot. :blush:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 16, 2009, 09:12:58 PM
Quote from: Siege on August 16, 2009, 09:07:36 PM
I was sure it was this one.
:lol:
I'd go ahead and tell you which thread, but I forgot. :blush:
What the hell is he looking for?
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 04:52:34 PM
since race is a social construct anyway, my opinion is a valid as anyone else's - that culture can and should be a valued part in deciding who belongs to which racial group.
If "race" is a social construct, then why can a lab determine someone's race just by analysing a vial of its blood? How can society "construct" the contents of a vial, exactly?
And if it is a social construct, then I would like to know how I and my girlfriend, both brown-haired and brown-eyed, mediterranean skin and with families composed soley of similar people, could 'socially construct' ourselves a blonde, blue-eyed, light-skinned child (naturally ours, no adoption). I am certainly interested in 'constructing' that between us.
Quote from: Martinus on August 15, 2009, 03:36:48 AM
I'm pretty sure races do not differ at a molecular level. :D
They do. DNA is molecular.
People interested in knowing their origin(s) [in the case of multiple heritages], can test themselves in many labs.
http://dnaconsultants.com/Detailed/332.html
(if you're farily sure you're only european, go here: http://dnaconsultants.com/Detailed/426.html)
Or
http://www.dnaheritage.com/mtdna.asp
(for mithochondrial DNA, via female line)
http://www.dnaheritage.com/ysnp.asp
(For Y-chromosome for males)
Map of the major human groups: http://www.dnaheritage.com/oracle/MitoMap_Letter.pdf
Quote from: DNA Lab
Each population around the world has their own long journey to tell of. Whether they stayed within Africa or took the path out of Africa, we can now track these movements with the aid of genetics.
Your DNA has changed slightly over the past 80 thousand years. We call these changes SNP's (pronounced 'snips' and short for 'Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms'). Each SNP is a change in the DNA code at one single letter. These changes only happen once in history at any one place along the DNA and can be thought of as a fork in the road.
If one brother had this SNP mutation, and another didn't, the brothers go separate ways. Because each of their sons respective sons will have these different mutations, and all of their descendants, we end up with two large branches of the Y-chromosome tree
If some people then traveled out of Africa they took this Y-chromosome mutation, this identifying branch with them.
If we fast forward to the present day, we now see many of these large branches all around the globe. We call these branches 'haplogroups' and we label them Haplgroup A through to Haplogroup R.
We see Haplogroup A in Africa, Haplogroup D in East Asia, Haplogroup H in India, Haplogroup I in Europe, Haplogroup M in Indonesia and Haplogroup Q in North America. And many others.
Molecular Biology has found and taught us much these last decades.
Ahh the sweet science of race.
So, can they test me to see if I'm a Jedi?
Jedi MtDNA is awsome, filled with little Mitachondrichlorians.
MSil always amuses. :)
Merithyn, you fucking carpetbagger.
Quote from: Jaron on August 17, 2009, 05:33:53 PM
Merithyn, you fucking carpetbagger.
I thought she was contemplating a move to Canada, if anywhere.
Quote from: PDH on August 17, 2009, 05:08:56 PM
Jedi MtDNA is awsome, filled with little Mitachondrichlorians.
I'll borrow one of my nephew's lightsabres. I'd rather be a Sith though as the jedi are the Gestapo of the Old Republic.
Quote from: merithyn on August 14, 2009, 08:24:24 AM
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 07:43:43 AM
So what do you have going on on you to make yourself identify as Hispanic? Which Hispanic cultural traits do you display?
I was 19 before I knew what the English word for "underwear". (They were casones(sp?) to me.) I still refer to things in Spanish without thinking about it, i.e. my daughter is "m'ja", rice is "sopa", and my nose is and has always been my "nadiz". I eat beans and rice with a torn off piece of tortilla at home rather than a fork. I no longer cross myself when I go by a cemetery or church, though I did for most of my life.
There are probably a lot more things, but in all honesty, I don't even recognize them as "different". It's what we do, how we live. Even my biological parents have adjusted and changed due to their close relationship with my foster parents. To my foster family, I am their daughter/sister, though I'm a "weda" (sp?). They are no less my family than my biological parents and siblings. When my foster father and sister died (at different times), my little sister and I were listed in the obituary as their immediate family, were included in the preparations, and were expected to be there with the family for all visitations, etc.
We were literally raised by these people. Much more so than by my biological parents.
Calzones - though nobody says that in Spain proper, it's
calzoncillos for males or
bragas for females.
Rice would be
arroz,
sopa means soup.
Nariz.
Don't know what you meant by
Weda. :P
As for the topic, race is how others see you, plain and simple. I'm so pale that I've had thyroid tests done. So I'm quite sure I'd be considered white, despite speaking English with an obvious Spanish accent.
Quote from: PDH on August 17, 2009, 06:58:53 PM
He likes deliberately misunderstanding science.
Fixed your post. The idea that, because genetics exist, then "race" must also exist, is one of those time-honored bits of intellectual fraud that pinheads still find themselves quoting... even if they find themselves saying absurd things like "DNA is a molecule."
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2009, 02:00:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 14, 2009, 01:48:15 PM
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish.
Spain is not the only source of Spanish. People definitely say mija here.
Unlike English, which lacks a similar body AFAIK, correct Spanish is regulated by the Real Academia (http://www.rae.es/rae.html) (which accepts members and terms from other countries, not just Spain). The French have something similar in the Académie française.
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish. I'm sure people over there use it, but just like using "your" when it should be "you're", it is still incorrect.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 07:40:48 PM
Unlike English, which lacks a similar body AFAIK, correct Spanish is regulated by the Real Academia (http://www.rae.es/rae.html) (which accepts members and terms from other countries, not just Spain). The French have something similar in the Académie française.
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish. I'm sure people over there use it, but just like using "your" when it should be "you're", it is still incorrect.
Saying that the words people use to communicate in Latin America aren't actually words seems counterproductive. And no, that's not at all the same, Marty. Your vs. You're is a mistake that happens either because someone doesn't no the difference or makes a typographical error. Spanish speakers here don't accidentally say "mija." :rolleyes:
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 07:40:48 PMUnlike English, which lacks a similar body AFAIK, correct Spanish is regulated by the Real Academia (http://www.rae.es/rae.html) (which accepts members and terms from other countries, not just Spain). The French have something similar in the Académie française.
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish. I'm sure people over there use it, but just like using "your" when it should be "you're", it is still incorrect.
That seems like a great way to increase your blood pressure and alienate people for no appreciable gain.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 07:40:48 PM
Unlike English, which lacks a similar body AFAIK, correct Spanish is regulated by the Real Academia (http://www.rae.es/rae.html) (which accepts members and terms from other countries, not just Spain). The French have something similar in the Académie française.
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish. I'm sure people over there use it, but just like using "your" when it should be "you're", it is still incorrect.
What enforcement powers do they have? :P
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2009, 07:47:22 PM
Saying that the words people use to communicate in Latin America aren't actually words seems counterproductive. And no, that's not at all the same, Marty. Your vs. You're is a mistake that happens either because someone doesn't no the difference or makes a typographical error. Spanish speakers here don't accidentally say "mija." :rolleyes:
Then, as you so aptly put it, they just don't no better.
And I reiterate, it is not a Spain vs Latinamerica thing. For example, a quick search reveals that "burrito" is in the dictionary, despite being from the colonies:
Quote from: real Academia de la Lengua Españolaburrito.
(Del dim. de burro).
1. m. Bol. Instrumento ortopédico que da apoyo a las personas que sufren entorpecimiento para caminar.
2. m. Méx. Tortilla de harina de trigo enrollada y rellena de carne, frijoles o queso.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 08:02:18 PM
Then, as you so aptly put it, they just don't no better.
Actually they do, I have a heard time believing that they don't see any difference from mjia and mi hija. :lol:
Oh and is this an appropriate time to say that I think that what the French (and by extension the Spanish) do is completely inane? :lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 17, 2009, 07:57:49 PM
What enforcement powers do they have? :P
None, of course. Doesn't really need them.
Failure to comply with certain standards denotes lack of proper education, which is a penalty in itself.
Many people are not likely to seriously consider anything (exam, research paper, novel, business plan, report, CV) written in crappy Spanish. Or English for that matter.
Yes, use of slang in conversation "denotes a lack of proper education." Give us a break.
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2009, 08:07:00 PM
Oh and is this an appropriate time to say that I think that what the French (and by extension the Spanish) do is completely inane? :lol:
Most languages have a regulating body. English is almost alone in this. Its role has been filled by "institutions" like the OED.
It is true. The OED plays a big role in how I speak.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 08:25:27 PM
Most languages have a regulating body. English is almost alone in this. Its role has been filled by "institutions" like the OED.
The OED doesn't regulate, it records :)
Quote from: Ideologue on August 15, 2009, 08:16:46 AM
Aren't Finns and Estonians Asiatics (if highly interbred with Europeans)?
Indo-Europeans originate from around the same area as the Uralics. There are a lot of basic similarities between the Uralic and Indo-European languages, pointing to either a truly ancient common origin or long term contact, in either case ensuring genetic contact throughout their respective histories.
All of these racial categories are totally fucking absurd. Populations are closest related to the closest group. End of story. Kazakh "Caucasians" are a mix of "Caucasians" and "Mongoloids", who really aren't all that different, especially by the standards of human diversity; the European "Turanid" and "Armenid" types are closer related to eachother and to Amerindians than a member of a major African ethnic group is to another African group.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 17, 2009, 08:46:05 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 08:25:27 PM
Most languages have a regulating body. English is almost alone in this. Its role has been filled by "institutions" like the OED.
The OED doesn't regulate, it records :)
When the OED (or other dictionaries - I'm not an expert in the subject) is used by, for example, teaching institutions as a reference, it is in practice regulating.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 08:59:47 PM
When the OED (or other dictionaries - I'm not an expert in the subject) is used by, for example, teaching institutions as a reference, it is in practice regulating.
So you're talking out of your ass, gotcha. ;)
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 08:25:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2009, 08:07:00 PM
Oh and is this an appropriate time to say that I think that what the French (and by extension the Spanish) do is completely inane? :lol:
Most languages have a regulating body. English is almost alone in this. Its role has been filled by "institutions" like the OED.
we don't need a regulating body... English is the "borg" of languages... we assimilate your language and pronounce it however the hell we feel like. Also we randomly change the meaning of words and use outdated slang simply to mess with non-native speakers.
All Your Base are belong to us!
So let me get this straight..
Merithyn is "hispanic" because she knows a few words of Spanish and eats beans and tortillas?
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 08:59:47 PM
When the OED (or other dictionaries - I'm not an expert in the subject) is used by, for example, teaching institutions as a reference, it is in practice regulating.
Well I used the OED a lot at university and its main use is as a record of the changes in the English language and the eymology of it. It's used to refer back to for meaning and spelling but it's in no way like the Academie. Its role is to study and record the changes taking place in the English language (which is why it adds thousands of words every year) not to regulate it.
Quote from: Jaron on August 17, 2009, 09:16:54 PM
So let me get this straight..
Merithyn is "hispanic" because she knows a few words of Spanish and eats beans and tortillas?
You're one to talk, homie.
Am I?
I don't really claim or make boastful claims about being of the hispanic race.
Culturally though, I suppose I don't qualify as being very hispanic. My physical appearance though demands I not downplay the part.
Quote from: Jaron on August 17, 2009, 09:22:19 PM
Am I?
I don't really claim or make boastful claims about being of the hispanic race.
Culturally though, I suppose I don't qualify as being very hispanic. My physical appearance though demands I not downplay the part.
I was referring to you claiming to be black at one point in forum history. :P
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 17, 2009, 09:24:39 PM
Quote from: Jaron on August 17, 2009, 09:22:19 PM
Am I?
I don't really claim or make boastful claims about being of the hispanic race.
Culturally though, I suppose I don't qualify as being very hispanic. My physical appearance though demands I not downplay the part.
I was referring to you claiming to be black at one point in forum history. :P
You have me confused with CdM.
Quote from: Jaron on August 17, 2009, 09:22:19 PM
Am I?
I don't really claim or make boastful claims about being of the hispanic race.
Culturally though, I suppose I don't qualify as being very hispanic. My physical appearance though demands I not downplay the part.
No shit. Now do the hat dance for us.
Quote from: derspiess on August 17, 2009, 11:39:45 PM
Quote from: Jaron on August 17, 2009, 09:22:19 PM
Am I?
I don't really claim or make boastful claims about being of the hispanic race.
Culturally though, I suppose I don't qualify as being very hispanic. My physical appearance though demands I not downplay the part.
No shit. Now do the hat dance for us.
:yawn:
Quote from: Jaron on August 17, 2009, 09:16:54 PM
So let me get this straight..
Merithyn is "hispanic" because she knows a few words of Spanish and eats beans and tortillas?
:yes:
Princesca got one of those Berlitz CDs and has been learning elementary German while driving around. Now she can count to ten in German.
LOL German! :)
I am Byzantine. ^_^
Quote from: derspiess on August 17, 2009, 11:39:45 PM
No shit. Now do the hat dance for us.
I can do the hat dance. :)
And the Macarena. ^_^
I'm glad you're not getting mad at us for our playful mocking, Meri. :)
That was what I always hated about Horty: no sense of humor about himself.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 07:40:48 PM
Unlike English, which lacks a similar body AFAIK, correct Spanish is regulated by the Real Academia (http://www.rae.es/rae.html) (which accepts members and terms from other countries, not just Spain). The French have something similar in the Académie française.
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish. I'm sure people over there use it, but just like using "your" when it should be "you're", it is still incorrect.
That may be the case in Spain, but even in my Spanish class at University we learned the Latin American version of the language, which included contractions, etc. (To be fair, we learned them because of the students asking about what they already knew from native Spanish speakers, but it came up, was addressed, and in essence became part of the lesson.)
Your governing body may try to govern the language, but it's failing miserably on this side of the ocean. :D
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 06:59:06 AM
I'm glad you're not getting mad at us for our playful mocking, Meri. :)
That was what I always hated about Horty: no sense of humor about himself.
It's a silly thing, really. I've long thought that about racial constructs, which I still say is completely made up. And if I'd been that seriously concerned about any of this, the last thing I'd have done was come to Languish. :P I was more interested in a world-wide idea of what "race" is, so where else but Languish?
As I said, it's confusing for me, has been confusing for others I've tried to explain this to, and isn't going to get any easier no matter how cut and dried some want to try to make it.
That being said, mis amigas and I are going to make some enchiladas and sopa tonight, drink it with Coronas, and end the night singing with the mariachis. Anyone want come? ;)
Soup sopa or rice sopa?
For the record, I think it's great that you are exposing your kids to different cultures like this. I have a co-worker who is so provincial she won't go out to lunch with us for anything "different", which to her includes Chinese, Mexican, etc. ... all of which are "too spicy". :rolleyes:
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 07:08:20 AM
For the record, I think it's great that you are exposing your kids to different cultures like this. I have a co-worker who is so provincial she won't go out to lunch with us for anything "different", which to her includes Chinese, Mexican, etc. ... all of which are "too spicy". :rolleyes:
America hater.
You know what I hate? DORA THE EXPLORER.
I know nothing about that cartoon. :huh:
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 07:10:22 AM
I know nothing about that cartoon. :huh:
It teaches kids SPANISH. :(
How else will they learn how to speak with the domestic help? :huh:
Saturday Night Live did a pretty funny spoof of it, which is how I even know it exists. Should be on YouTube.
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 07:12:44 AM
How else will they learn how to speak with the domestic help? :huh:
English, because the nanny is white. :lol:
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 07:11:27 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 07:10:22 AM
I know nothing about that cartoon. :huh:
It teaches kids SPANISH. :(
It could be worse...they could be watching "Ni Hao, Kai-Lan"
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 18, 2009, 07:30:05 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 07:11:27 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 07:10:22 AM
I know nothing about that cartoon. :huh:
It teaches kids SPANISH. :(
It could be worse...they could be watching "Ni Hao, Kai-Lan"
Nope. Not allowed in my household mister. Pro-Chinese propaganda? OVER MY DEAD BODY.
I, too, enjoy Corona beer.
Could I be: Closet hispanic? :(
Well, on a related note, I think anyone who can actually stand to eat lutefisk should be considered a full-blooded Norwegian. :x
Same goes for that rotten shark shit they eat in Iceland.
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 07:41:52 AM
Well, on a related note, I think anyone who can actually stand to eat lutefisk should be considered a full-blooded Norwegian. :x
Same goes for that rotten shark shit they eat in Iceland.
You are making me racially confused. :(
I have tried and enjoyed
lutefisk, rakfisk, aswell as the Swedish variant
surströmming.
Could it be that I am racially Swewegio-Mexican?
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 07:09:29 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 07:08:20 AM
For the record, I think it's great that you are exposing your kids to different cultures like this. I have a co-worker who is so provincial she won't go out to lunch with us for anything "different", which to her includes Chinese, Mexican, etc. ... all of which are "too spicy". :rolleyes:
America hater.
You know what I hate? DORA THE EXPLORER.
I hate it too, though not I assume for the same reasons. ;)
I was forced to watch some of that shit lately by an invasion of Carl's Dora-mad girl-cousins. Boring and repetitive even by toddler TV standards.
Quote from: Malthus on August 18, 2009, 07:48:36 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 07:09:29 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 07:08:20 AM
For the record, I think it's great that you are exposing your kids to different cultures like this. I have a co-worker who is so provincial she won't go out to lunch with us for anything "different", which to her includes Chinese, Mexican, etc. ... all of which are "too spicy". :rolleyes:
America hater.
You know what I hate? DORA THE EXPLORER.
I hate it too, though not I assume for the same reasons. ;)
I was forced to watch some of that shit lately by an invasion of Carl's Dora-mad girl-cousins. Boring and repetitive even by toddler TV standards.
The Map song is an abomination. ITS THE MAP, ITS THE MAP, ITS THE
MAP.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 07:51:08 AM
The Map song is an abomination. ITS THE MAP, ITS THE MAP, ITS THE MAP.
The only way it is made halfway bearable is by imagining that it is all a set-up for an invasion of brutal conquistadors, who will proceed to use THE MAP to find each and every last one of Dora's companions and brutally enslave them in the name of Christ and Spain.
"Backpack, backpack, has slave chains and crucifixes and a musket too ... "
Dora Conquistadora. :P
Quote from: Malthus on August 18, 2009, 07:57:07 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 07:51:08 AM
The Map song is an abomination. ITS THE MAP, ITS THE MAP, ITS THE MAP.
The only way it is made halfway bearable is by imagining that it is all a set-up for an invasion of brutal conquistadors, who will proceed to use THE MAP to find each and every last one of Dora's companions and brutally enslave them in the name of Christ and Spain.
"Backpack, backpack, has slave chains and crucifixes and a musket too ... "
Dora Conquistadora. :P
:lol:
I like the cut of your jib.
Dora dies of Smallpox.
Quote from: grumbler on August 17, 2009, 07:33:27 PM
Quote from: PDH on August 17, 2009, 06:58:53 PM
He likes deliberately misunderstanding science.
Fixed your post.
I was generous and included the pseudo-sciences in my statement. :)
So, race is language, except when it is not, because it is also physical characteristics (picked not meaningfully but by what is decided is important), and it is lineage MtDNA that somehow, despite all evidence, plays a meaningful role in biological expression. Race is also constructed, except when it is not, and it is so obvious that really we don't need to dissect it because it just is.
I think I have it now, Grumbler!
Oh, Ed, you can be a Sith.
Quote from: PDH on August 18, 2009, 08:09:33 AM
Oh, Ed, you can be a Sith.
Awesome. Princess leia will be fondled roughly.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 08:00:08 AM
:lol:
I like the cut of your jib.
Dora dies of Smallpox.
:thumbsup: I never put Dora on for Tommy, but the babysitter apparently does. Every time we're at a store & he sees anything with Dora on it (which is ~25% of an entire store's merchandise), he yells "DORA!!!"
Oh, and my parents were watching him yesterday & disobeyed my orders not to show him Barney or Caillou :angry:
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2009, 09:24:39 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 08:00:08 AM
:lol:
I like the cut of your jib.
Dora dies of Smallpox.
:thumbsup: I never put Dora on for Tommy, but the babysitter apparently does. Every time we're at a store & he sees anything with Dora on it (which is ~25% of an entire store's merchandise), he yells "DORA!!!"
Oh, and my parents were watching him yesterday & disobeyed my orders not to show him Barney or Caillou :angry:
If I tried to order my parents around on watching the grandkids, I'd receive a long winded lecture and they would show the kids the forbidden cartoon anyways, just to show me. :blush:
Quote from: merithyn on August 18, 2009, 06:59:29 AM
That may be the case in Spain, but even in my Spanish class at University we learned the Latin American version of the language, which included contractions, etc. (
:bleeding:
All throughout high school and college, I was fortunate enough to only be taught Spanish the way God wants us to speak it.
Vosotros FTW
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 09:29:00 AM
If I tried to order my parents around on watching the grandkids, I'd receive a long winded lecture and they would show the kids the forbidden cartoon anyways, just to show me. :blush:
My parents try to comply with my orders, but they just forget. He was dancing to some horrible early 90s Barney video when I picked him up last night :bleeding:
I guess I need to give them more stuff to keep on hand, from the approved list: Yo Gabba Gabba, Sesame Street, Pocoyo, Kipper, and war movies.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 18, 2009, 09:29:00 AM
If I tried to order my parents around on watching the grandkids, I'd receive a long winded lecture and they would show the kids the forbidden cartoon anyways, just to show me. :blush:
Attempting to order my parents not to do whatever with the kid would not work out well for me, either. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Slargos on August 18, 2009, 07:39:52 AM
I, too, enjoy Corona beer.
Could I be: Closet hispanic? :(
No, just someone who enjoys really horrible beer.
Quote from: Malthus on August 18, 2009, 09:32:59 AM
Attempting to order my parents not to do whatever with the kid would not work out well for me, either. :Embarrass:
Mine are meek enough to comply; just too bad that they're old & forgetful.
Quote from: PDH on August 18, 2009, 08:09:33 AM
So, race is language, except when it is not, because it is also physical characteristics (picked not meaningfully but by what is decided is important), and it is lineage MtDNA that somehow, despite all evidence, plays a meaningful role in biological expression. Race is also constructed, except when it is not, and it is so obvious that really we don't need to dissect it because it just is.
I think I have it now, Grumbler!
An easier explanation is "race is whatever you need it to be, if you are a racist." Since it is a poorly-fabricated concept, it need obey no laws of logic. :cool:
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2009, 09:33:58 AMNo, just someone who enjoys really horrible beer.
There is a time and place for Corona. ^_^
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 09:48:02 AM
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2009, 09:33:58 AMNo, just someone who enjoys really horrible beer.
There is a time and place for Corona. ^_^
Not if you're old enough to know better :contract:
Hence the "time" comment. :lol:
Quote from: merithyn on August 18, 2009, 06:59:29 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 17, 2009, 07:40:48 PM
Unlike English, which lacks a similar body AFAIK, correct Spanish is regulated by the Real Academia (http://www.rae.es/rae.html) (which accepts members and terms from other countries, not just Spain). The French have something similar in the Académie française.
There are no shorthands of that kind in Spanish. I'm sure people over there use it, but just like using "your" when it should be "you're", it is still incorrect.
That may be the case in Spain, but even in my Spanish class at University we learned the Latin American version of the language, which included contractions, etc. (To be fair, we learned them because of the students asking about what they already knew from native Spanish speakers, but it came up, was addressed, and in essence became part of the lesson.)
Your governing body may try to govern the language, but it's failing miserably on this side of the ocean. :D
There's also an "Academia Norteamericana de la Lengua Española" as well, so it's also yours. :P
http://www.anle.us/ (http://www.anle.us/)
Mexico is more important than Spain. Therefore, the Mexican way of speaking Spanish trumps the Spanish way. :)
Quote from: The Larch on August 18, 2009, 10:42:27 AM
There's also an "Academia Norteamericana de la Lengua Española" as well, so it's also yours. :P
http://www.anle.us/ (http://www.anle.us/)
Apparently they are trying to bring the inquisition here by publishing a 3,000 page grammar guide. I doubt they'll be able to stamp out "esponsorizar" or "retaliación" (as this article decries) but power to them on their quixotic journey?
http://www.nydailynews.com/latino/2009/05/14/2009-05-14_academy_to_become_spanish_inquisitor_.html
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2009, 11:30:50 AM
Apparently they are trying to bring the inquisition here by publishing a 3,000 page grammar guide. I doubt they'll be able to stamp out "esponsorizar" or "retaliación" (as this article decries) but power to them on their quixotic journey?
That would be a
quijotic journey.
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 10:43:43 AM
Mexico is more important than Spain.
Spain has fewer people but a higher GNP.
Mexico borders the United States, and therefore a bit of our awesomeness spills over the border and gives Mexico the win.
Stuff spills over the border the other way, too, and I guess its awesomeness is debatable, but I for one appreciate the resulting cheapness of my sausage. :)
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 10:43:43 AM
Mexico is more important than Spain. Therefore, the Mexican way of speaking Spanish trumps the Spanish way. :)
Mexico is terrorized by drug terrorists, Spain is terrorized by nationalist terrorists. Mexico wins.
I predict in 100 years Spain will be speaking Mexican. It's all part of Montezuma's Revenge. :p
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2009, 11:30:50 AM
Apparently they are trying to bring the inquisition here by publishing a 3,000 page grammar guide. I doubt they'll be able to stamp out "esponsorizar" or "retaliación" (as this article decries) but power to them on their quixotic journey?
http://www.nydailynews.com/latino/2009/05/14/2009-05-14_academy_to_become_spanish_inquisitor_.html
According to the article (leaving out the hyperbole), all the Academy is really doing is helping the US government make sure its Spanish-language messages are in proper Spanish. I see no harm in that. The publishing of a grammar guide in Spanish seems no more quixotic than doing the same in English (and there are plenty of those).
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on August 18, 2009, 11:56:31 AM
I predict in 100 years Spain will be speaking English.
Fixed -_-
Quote from: grumbler on August 18, 2009, 11:56:55 AM
According to the article (leaving out the hyperbole), all the Academy is really doing is helping the US government make sure its Spanish-language messages are in proper Spanish. I see no harm in that. The publishing of a grammar guide in Spanish seems no more quixotic than doing the same in English (and there are plenty of those).
As far as I know the Academy's goal is to support and promote the correct usage of Spanish, which I supposed is defined by the Royal Academy of Spanish (being as the North American chapter is an affiliate. I don't think there is a problem in helping our government communicate (we already know that they have translation issues -_-) but I can't help but wonder at using Spanish that might not actually be most comfortable/familiar with the Spanish speaking population. I do think it is a little quixotic to attempt to control the evolution of a language, although it may be the case that the North American academy refrains from that, leaving such to the Royal Academy.
In fact, from their site it looks like the North American academy just wants to encourage people to speak/know Spanish...although they have participated in conferences that seek to redefine spelling rules. :x
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2009, 11:54:30 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 10:43:43 AM
Mexico is more important than Spain. Therefore, the Mexican way of speaking Spanish trumps the Spanish way. :)
Mexico is terrorized by drug terrorists, Spain is terrorized by nationalist terrorists. Mexico wins.
Heh. ETA is a very, very localized phenomenon. Violence in Spain is much lower than in the States*, not to mention Mexico which is pretty much a war zone.
*It has increased with mass immigration, but generally they tend to kill each other.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 18, 2009, 12:57:32 PM
*It has increased with mass immigration, but generally they tend to kill each other.
If you discount black on black crime, Detroit has almost no violence. :)
I suspect that if you discount blacks, Detroit would have almost no population. :P
Quote from: Iormlund on August 18, 2009, 12:57:32 PMHeh. ETA is a very, very localized phenomenon. Violence in Spain is much lower than in the States*, not to mention Mexico which is pretty much a war zone.
*It has increased with mass immigration, but generally they tend to kill each other.
So? Why does violence make them less important countries? Why, World War II was the most violent war in history, but that doesn't make history's least important war. :)
This analogy brought to you by Marti Enterprises(TM). :cool:
Quote from: Iormlund on August 18, 2009, 12:57:32 PM
*It has increased with mass immigration, but generally they tend to kill each other.
I don't mean to question Spain's immigration policies but why are you letting masses of people enter the country with your unemployement being so massively high?
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2009, 01:44:46 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 18, 2009, 12:57:32 PM
*It has increased with mass immigration, but generally they tend to kill each other.
I don't mean to question Spain's immigration policies but why are you letting masses of people enter the country with your unemployement being so massively high?
short trip from africa would be my major guess.
Letting people in has nothing to do with immigration. As your own experience with Mexicans shows. If they want to get here they will do so.
Anyway, most came during the last decade, when unemployment was in record lows. The crisis, of course, has changed that and now our politicians are desperately trying to ... shed some weight, by encouraging them to return home.
Quote from: HVC on August 18, 2009, 01:50:05 PM
short trip from africa would be my major guess.
Not really. Most illegals enter the country legally, then stay once their student/tourist/work visa is no longer valid.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 18, 2009, 01:53:22 PM
Letting people in has nothing to do with immigration. As your own experience with Mexicans shows. If they want to get here they will do so.
Well they come here to work and send money home. They don't come to just hang out and be unemployed, they can do that just fine back home in Mexico.
Quote from: derspiess on August 18, 2009, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: merithyn on August 18, 2009, 06:59:29 AM
That may be the case in Spain, but even in my Spanish class at University we learned the Latin American version of the language, which included contractions, etc. (
:bleeding:
All throughout high school and college, I was fortunate enough to only be taught Spanish the way God wants us to speak it. Vosotros FTW
My family and I's experience has been simialar to yours. My brother, who was more or less fluent in Spanish(due to our Cuban background) before he started taking Spanish classes in high school got crappy grades because his grammar and spelling were poor were "non-standard." At UF, which has tons of native speakers taking Spanish classes, the standard that is taught is standard Spanish. Now, while people do not necessarily use the vosotros form in upper level classes, sloppiness is not tolerated either.
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 10:43:43 AM
Mexico is more important than Spain. Therefore, the Mexican way of speaking Spanish trumps the Spanish way. :)
:lol:
Mexico is nowhere near as important as Spain.
Also Mexican Spanish is hideous. I look forward to the Argentine dominance of Spanish :mmm:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2009, 02:03:01 PM
Also Mexican Spanish is hideous. I look forward to the Argentine dominance of Spanish :mmm:
Chinga tu madre.
Quote from: Valmy on August 18, 2009, 11:57:52 AM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on August 18, 2009, 11:56:31 AM
I predict in 100 years Spain will be speaking English.
Fixed -_-
I thought Nahuatl was all the rage in Spain.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2009, 02:03:01 PM
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 10:43:43 AM
Mexico is more important than Spain. Therefore, the Mexican way of speaking Spanish trumps the Spanish way. :)
:lol:
Mexico is nowhere near as important as Spain.
Mexico has a higher GDP I think. what's your gauge?
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 11:52:17 AM
Mexico borders the United States, and therefore a bit of our awesomeness spills over the border and gives Mexico the win.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhomedir-b.libsyn.com%2Fpodcasts%2F30cf4578f501bbb586d5ca7e3df989a7%2F4a8bd538%2Fjesusandhomi%2Fimages%2FLatinaLoverFatMexicanWoman.jpg&hash=6c33e9e6f62acce3f97311b244766822c64bd5b2)
Quote from: saskganesh on August 19, 2009, 04:39:38 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2009, 02:03:01 PM
Quote from: Caliga on August 18, 2009, 10:43:43 AM
Mexico is more important than Spain. Therefore, the Mexican way of speaking Spanish trumps the Spanish way. :)
:lol:
Mexico is nowhere near as important as Spain.
Mexico has a higher GDP I think. what's your gauge?
It's about the same. Spain is Euro thus far better, duh. Hell it's so much more stable then Mexico. It's government hasn't collapsed in over 30 years!
Quote from: Iormlund on August 18, 2009, 01:55:16 PM
Not really. Most illegals enter the country legally, then stay once their student/tourist/work visa is no longer valid.
Same as the US then.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 19, 2009, 10:57:09 AM
Quote from: Maximus on August 19, 2009, 08:19:57 AM
Same as the US then.
That can't be right.
You know, it is right based on my own experiences and observations. I once tried to find studies to get a more reliable picture and I found it nearly impossible to get an unbiased report on that.
Spain isn't important by any measure. Mexico has more influence on world affairs than the Spanish do. They've been reduced from building world empires to losing the war of language to their former fieldhands. No matter what the Academia says. ;)
Quote from: Jaron on August 19, 2009, 08:22:13 PM
Spain isn't important by any measure. Mexico has more influence on world affairs than the Spanish do. They've been reduced from building world empires to losing the war of language to their former fieldhands. No matter what the Academia says. ;)
Narco-trafficking counts as influence on world affairs?
Oh wait, of course it does.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mexico is a great mover and shaker in world affairs.
But it is more relevant and important politically, socially , economically and culturally than Spain is. Spain and Mexico are both countries the US once waged righteous war upon, except we kept the Mexican shit. ^_^
Quote from: Jaron on August 19, 2009, 08:50:34 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mexico is a great mover and shaker in world affairs.
But it is more relevant and important politically, socially , economically and culturally than Spain is. Spain and Mexico are both countries the US once waged righteous war upon, except we kept the Mexican shit. ^_^
You forgot Timmah's homeland. :(
Quote from: PDH on August 18, 2009, 08:09:33 AM
So, race is language, except when it is not, because it is also physical characteristics (picked not meaningfully but by what is decided is important), and it is lineage MtDNA that somehow, despite all evidence, plays a meaningful role in biological expression. Race is also constructed, except when it is not, and it is so obvious that really we don't need to dissect it because it just is.
By Jove, I think he has it!
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2009, 02:03:01 PM
Mexico is nowhere near as important as Spain.
Also Mexican Spanish is hideous. I look forward to the Argentine dominance of Spanish :mmm:
Over what period of time?
Quote from: merithyn on August 19, 2009, 09:27:11 PM
Quote from: PDH on August 18, 2009, 08:09:33 AM
So, race is language, except when it is not, because it is also physical characteristics (picked not meaningfully but by what is decided is important), and it is lineage MtDNA that somehow, despite all evidence, plays a meaningful role in biological expression. Race is also constructed, except when it is not, and it is so obvious that really we don't need to dissect it because it just is.
By Jove, I think he has it!
Race is like interracial porn. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
Quote from: saskganesh on August 19, 2009, 04:39:38 AM
Mexico has a higher GDP I think. what's your gauge?
Their national soccer teams.
Spain has culture, but Mexico has civilization. For instance:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg363.imageshack.us%2Fimg363%2F7137%2Fbluedemonsantoqp3.jpg&hash=ff5c7c4d95e2b2a478c1e3e8113801e1e71b989c)
Spain > Mexico even though I've never been to Spain :(
Mexico is a 2nd rate regional presence, Spain is a 3rd rate international presence.
Quote from: derspiess on August 20, 2009, 09:01:32 AM
I've never been to Spain :(
but you kinda like the music?
Quote from: Valmy on August 20, 2009, 08:17:41 AM
Quote from: merithyn on August 19, 2009, 09:27:11 PM
Quote from: PDH on August 18, 2009, 08:09:33 AM
So, race is language, except when it is not, because it is also physical characteristics (picked not meaningfully but by what is decided is important), and it is lineage MtDNA that somehow, despite all evidence, plays a meaningful role in biological expression. Race is also constructed, except when it is not, and it is so obvious that really we don't need to dissect it because it just is.
By Jove, I think he has it!
Race is like interracial porn. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
:lol: