What makes a person a particular race?

[Sheilbh]

It's happening, sure- and not on any massive scale. It will never happen on a massive enough scale to distinguish distinctive ethnicities.

In around ten years the UK's largest and fastest growing ethnic minority will be people of mixed race.  I believe Mark Steyn has a book coming out bemoaning Brasilondon

[merithyn]

I admit I sympathize with the notion of self-identity. How you identify yourself is important. However I know Hispanics who were born in other countries(Cuba, Mexico) who self identify not as Cuban or Mexican, but as American or alternatively as Mexican-American, which makes your self-identification as Mexican look absurd. to me. Based on evidence posted by you and others, it seems like your cultural identity is primarily American. There may be Mexican influence in who you are, but to claim you are primarily a "White Hispanic" as opposed to a plain old White just seems like you are emphasizing a secondary part of your identity for the purpose of standing out on grad school applications.

Actually, I identify as Mexican-American, not Mexican. I just never bothered to add the "-American" at the end in this thread. I assumed that was a given. I apologize for the omission.

[merithyn]

That's the crux of what I've been trying to get across to her.  She keeps talking about stuff that relates to nationality and culture, neither of which (in an American context) have anything to do with race.  Race is genetic;  it's about physical traits.  What language you speak, or what kind of accent that you have, are completely irrelevant.

Erm... I'm saying that imo culture should be part of what helps identify race. I thought I'd said this several times already. In addition, as Hispanics aren't a racial group, but a subset of "White", how else would one handle the question of whether a person is Hispanic other than by culture? Especially as many Cubans look black, many Puerto Ricans look white, and there's a slew of other Hispanic folk that fall in between?

[merithyn]

Lame.... in this day and age Mixed heritage should be a very obvious option. If you are going to bother with such categorizing and racial profiling of children.

In the US they are required to racially profile the children, for Affirmative Action reasons.

In this particular case, it's because there was a lawsuit against the district for mistreatment of black children. Unfortunately, it was not a baseless lawsuit, and for the past 10 years, the district has been changing their incredibly racist policies to fix the situation. (Things like testing all black kids of low-SES for special ed and all white kids of high-SES for gifted, and ne'er the twain shall meet.)

In order to fix the inequities and to accommodate court mandated changes, they had to know which kids were which race. "Mixed" wasn't an option in the courts, so it couldn't be an option on the registration forms. In fact, I had a fit when I moved here and found that children were forced to choose one parent's ethnicity over another's, disregarding half their heritage. I asked what would happen if I chose nothing, and was told that it would default to white.

Luckily, the consent decree that we were under ended as of the beginning of this month, so the school district can now go based off Socio-Economic Status (SES) rather than race, as the Supreme Court dictated last year.

[Valmy]

sad... this is why America isn't as Great as it used to be.

Well we have never not done this so why were we great before?

[citizen k]

Outline of Human Racial Classification:

SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA GROUP
I. Capoid or Khoisanid Subspecies of southern Africa

A. Khoid (Hottentot) race
B. Sanid (Bushmen) race

II. Congoid Subspecies of sub-Saharan Africa

A. Central Congoid race (Geographic center and origin in the Congo river basin)

1. Palaecongoid subrace (the Congo river basin: Ivory Coast, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, Congo, Angola)
2. Sudanid subrace (western Africa: Niger, Mali, Senegal, Guinea)
3. Nilotid subrace (southern Sudan; the ancient Nubians were of this subrace)
4. Kafrid or Bantid subrace (east and south Africa: Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, Natal)

B. Bambutid race (African Pygmies)
C. Aethiopid race (Ethiopia, Somalia; hybridized with Caucasoids)


"OUT-OF-AFRICA" GROUP
I. Caucasoid or Europid Subspecies

A. Mediterranid race

1. West Mediterranean or Iberid subrace (Spain, Portugal, Corsica, Sardinia, and coastal areas of Morocco and Tunisia; the Atlanto-Mediterranean peoples who expanded over much of the Atlantic coastal regions of Europe during the Mesolithic period were a branch of this subrace)
2. East Mediterranean or Pontid subrace (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria; Aegean coasts of Greece and Turkey)
3. Dinaricized Mediterraneans (Residual mixed types resulting from the blending of Mediterranids with Dinarics, Alpines or Armenids; not a unified type, has much regional variation; predominant element [over 60%] in Sicily and southern Italy, principal element in Turkey [35%], important element in western Syria, Lebanon and central Italy, common in northern Italy. The ancient Cappadocian Mediterranean subrace of Anatolia was dinaricized during the Bronze Age [second millennium B.C.] and is a major contributor to this type in modern Turkey.)
4. South Mediterranean or Saharid subrace (predominant in Algeria and Libya, important in Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt)
5. Orientalid or Arabid subrace (predominant in Arabia, major element from Egypt to Syria, primary in northern Sudan, important in Iraq, predominant element among the Oriental Jews)

B. Dinaric race (predominant in western Balkans [Dinaric Mountains] and northern Italy, important in the Czech Republic, eastern and southern Switzerland, western Austria and eastern Ukraine. Its distribution in Europe, and that of its derived Dinaricized Mediterranean type, may be associated with the expansion of the Neolithic Anatolian farmers beginning circa 6,500 B.C.)
C. Alpine race (predominant element in Luxembourg, primary in Bavaria and Bohemia, important in France, Hungary, eastern and southern Switzerland)
D. Ladogan race (named after Lake Ladoga; indigenous to Russia; includes Lappish subrace of arctic Europe)
E. Nordish or Northern European race (various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary)
F. Armenid race (predominant element in Armenia, common in Syria, Lebanon and northern Iraq, primary element among the Ashkenazic Jews)
G. Turanid race (partially hybridized with Mongoloids; predominant element in Kazakhstan.; common in Hungary and Turkey)
H. Irano-Afghan race (predominant in Iran and Afghanistan, primary element in Iraq, common [25%] in Turkey)
I. Indic or Nordindid race (Pakistan and northern India)
J. Dravidic race (India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka [Ceylon]; ancient stabilized Indic-Veddoid [Australoid] blend)

II. Australoid Subspecies

A. Veddoid race (remnant Australoid population in central and southern India)
B. Negritos (remnants in Malaysia and the Philippines)
C. Melanesian race (New Guinea, Papua, Solomon Islands)
D. Australian-Tasmanian race (Australian Aborigines)

III. Mongoloid Subspecies

A. Northeast Asian or Northern Mogoloid race (various subraces in China, Manchuria, Korea and Japan)
B. Southeast Asian or Southern Mongoloid race (various subraces in southwest China, Indochina, Thailand, Myanmar [Burma], Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines, the last four partly hybridized with Australoids)
C. Micronesian-Polynesian race (predominantly Southern Mongoloid partly hybridized with Australoids)
D. Ainuid race (remnants of aboriginal population in northern Japan)
E. Tungid race (Mongolia and Siberia, Eskimos)
F. Amerindian race (American Indians; various subraces) [/s]

[Zoupa]

Is it their culture or their biology?

For instance, if a black person is adopted by a white family and raised culturally white, are they still "black"? Additionally, if a person has a Mexican father and a white mother, is raised not knowing Spanish but spends equal time with both, what race do they put down on the census form? (We're assuming no "other" exists on said form.)

My sister and I were raised Mexican culturally because we were fostered out when we were very young - I was three, my sister was two months old - and lived with said foster family until we were nearing our teen years. However, our biological family is Welsh and English, and we both lived with them during our teen years. My younger sister speaks Spanish fluently, but I only understand bits and pieces of it. What race are we?

P.S. Neil, I <3 you, but stay out. I'm seriously wondering what people think constitutes a "race" under these circumstances, sans troll.

Why do you care? 

And you're not welsh or english or latino. You're american, with pale skin. Nothing wrong with that.

[Slargos]

I thought this was a joke to begin with.

I guess this is where we've gotten with the extreme relativism of the last couple of decades.

Is Albert Einstein to blame with his extremely poor choice of wording?

Makes me wonder, what if anything will replace the social fabric when rules and structures are replaced in importance by "how do YOU feel about that?"

[Martinus]

I think it's kinda funny that for all the talk about the melting pot and American dream, so many Americans seem to be obsessed about their ethnic heritage.

[Martinus]

E. Nordish or Northern European race (various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary)

I'm cousins with Syt and Oglek.

[Martinus]

That's the crux of what I've been trying to get across to her.  She keeps talking about stuff that relates to nationality and culture, neither of which (in an American context) have anything to do with race.  Race is genetic;  it's about physical traits.  What language you speak, or what kind of accent that you have, are completely irrelevant.

Erm... I'm saying that imo culture should be part of what helps identify race. I thought I'd said this several times already. In addition, as Hispanics aren't a racial group, but a subset of "White", how else would one handle the question of whether a person is Hispanic other than by culture? Especially as many Cubans look black, many Puerto Ricans look white, and there's a slew of other Hispanic folk that fall in between?

That doesn't make sense at all. Only because Hispanic is a subset of Caucasian doesn't mean it is not a group that can be distinguished by some sort of a biological/genetic make-up.

A Swedish kid raised by a Latino family does not become "Hispanic" as a result.

[Martinus]

By the way, before you say that my nieces and nephews can't possibly be Mexican since they can't read or write the language, they were born in Mexico to Mexican parents with black hair, brown skin, and brown eyes.

Can't comment. My Mexican friends are all blue-eyed blondes. And not any less Mexican for it.

Merithyn, you confuse culture with race. As said, one comes from nurture [and it can be changed if one truly wants it], other comes from nature and cannot be changed, ever. If you identify yourself with Mexican culture, you may as well adopt it totally and request Mexican citizenship - but that will not change your race, at best your ethnicity (I believe the Americans would then classify you as 'Hispanic').

See Michael Jackson as an example: even though he surgically changed himself, even to the point of marrying white women and claiming that he could father absolutely white kids, he was always black and was presented as an african-american icon at his funeral (wonder what he himself would have thought about that).

For race, skin colour is the least important issue. Today science pays little attention to it. What is used to determine it is molecular biology (each race is "built" differently at a molecular level. In other words, a Chinaman has a molecular structure that is not similar to that of, say, an Arab, and vice-versa).

So, to know your race, just take a blood sample and send it to a molecular lab. They'll de-construct your molecular structure and tell you from where your ancestors came and to whom you belong to (or to which groups, in case there is a mixed heritage).

I'm pretty sure races do not differ at a molecular level.

Unless you mean races like Silicoid and Klackons.

[swallow]

If you honestly feel that your Mexican upbringing stoppedyou getting the grades/qualifications you would otherwise have got, then for the purposes of application forms then it's fair to count yourself as Mexican. 

Since it's subjective, the whole area is gray.  Really, to make positive discrimination work properly, there needs to be some sort of objective assessment of the effects of culture/race for each individual.

[merithyn]

If you honestly feel that your Mexican upbringing stoppedyou getting the grades/qualifications you would otherwise have got, then for the purposes of application forms then it's fair to count yourself as Mexican. 

This is an interesting take. No, I do not feel as though they have stopped me getting the grades/qualifications that I would otherwise have gotten. Quite the opposite, in fact. I feel that my Mexican upbringing has given me an insight and grasp of the culture that others who were not raised in a similar culture would not and do not have. This has given me an "inside view" as it were. I have the best of both worlds.

The program that I am going into at the University (assuming I get in) is studying how a child's non-English first language affects their English reading scores and how best to help them when they struggle. In particular, how to identify reading struggles as language-based vs. other concerns, i.e. dyslexia, comprehension concerns, etc.

I spent a great deal of time with my Mexican-born nieces and nephews (they were adopted by my eldest sister when they were very young) helping them learn to read. They were (and are) fluent in Spanish, but have little to no accent when speaking English, so teachers disregarded their reading problems as being cognitive-based rather than language-based, and instead put all of them through a battery of tests for learning disabilities. Because I understood the Spanish aspect and knew what the situation was, I was able to help them. I tutored them for a number of years, helping them make the leap.

What confused their teachers was that they didn't succeed in an ESL program, either, because they had no idea how to read or write in Spanish. Since they couldn't read or write in English or Spanish, they must have had cognitive concerns rather than language ones, according to the teachers. Besides, even if they spoke Spanish, their English was perfect, so it just couldn't be language-based.

I want to work to find a way to help kids like this that fall in the "in-between". Given my unique upbringing, I feel like I can do that. I will earn no extra admission perks for claiming a Mexican-American heritage, but I will be more likely to receive an assistantship over an Anglo-raised person. I don't think that's "cheating" since I'll bring to the table the same kind of experience as someone who is "truly" Mexican-American.

Since it's subjective, the whole area is gray.  Really, to make positive discrimination work properly, there needs to be some sort of objective assessment of the effects of culture/race for each individual.

Oh, I agree completely that it's all a gray area, which is why I'm highly amused by the absolute responses here.

Have I been discriminated against because of my upbringing? Absolutely not. It's opened doors for me that would otherwise have been closed because I had insight that benefited others. Have I been witnessed and been party to discrimination while participating in life with my family? Yes, I have, though I would never claim that it devastated my life. Minor annoyances at best. Of course, my family would say the same, as they live in a Mexican-dominated community. (I moved out when I was 18, so it's not my community anymore.)

But I understand what you're saying and agree that this is an important part of the puzzle. I think others here have been trying to say something similar when they say that how one looks is the important part because it's how others perceive and treat you that's the "racial" component. I don't disagree. As a genetically white woman, I will never see the kind of overt, blatant racism that my older siblings could see, which sets me apart from them. At the same time, that also means that people say incredibly ignorant and racist things around me that they wouldn't dare say around a Latino that hurt me no less than they would my family.

[Ideologue]

E. Nordish or Northern European race (various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary)

I'm cousins with Syt and Oglek.

Aren't Finns and Estonians Asiatics (if highly interbred with Europeans)?