What makes a person a particular race?

[Princesca]

But Meri - when Cal and I met you, I never would have guessed in a million years that you had -any- Mexican heritage whatsoever, genetic, culturally, or otherwise. I don't remember you making any references. To me, if you truly are Mexican, even a stranger who met you for casual conversation once would pick up on it.

[merithyn]

How does one "act more Mexican"?  Do you have an overwhelming compulsion to clean toilets or something? 

I speak with an accent (very slight, but it's there), I'm more demonstrative, etc.

[Ed Anger]

Meri, I have a Strawberry crop next year that'll need to be picked. I offer 2 dollars an hour.

[merithyn]

Yeah, but that's just an affectation on your part.  It's not uncommon for some people to emphasize any part of their heritage that differs from straight white.  Thus, you get someone whose great-grandma was half-Indian going on and on about their Indian blood, for example.

I've thought that for a long time. That's why I've always claimed "White". And to an extent, I still agree with that. At the same time, I can see culture being the basis of racial claims, too.

None of it is cut and dried.

[Neil]

Yeah, but that's just an affectation on your part.  It's not uncommon for some people to emphasize any part of their heritage that differs from straight white.  Thus, you get someone whose great-grandma was half-Indian going on and on about their Indian blood, for example.

Princesca is Native American because the government says so (i.e. she is legally defined as such).  On her father's side, her great-grandma was a full blooded Cherokee.  On her mother's side, one of her great-grandmas was also a full blooded Cherokee, and one of her great-grandfathers was either a full blooded Cherokee or a Shawnee. 

Then that's her cross to bear.

Still, I feel bad for her, that she's put into that class because of 3/8ths of her heritage.  Still, it's not unreasonable for the government to consider people with more than 25% Indian ancestry to be potential Indians themselves.

[Caliga]

I don't consider myself Native American.

Well, I consider you Native American, SAVAGE. 

[Valmy]

PS I'm planning to scalp Cal tonight. Get good wampum for white man hair. Shhh... don't tell him.

I have some shiny beads...can I have your house?

[Neil]

Yeah, but that's just an affectation on your part.  It's not uncommon for some people to emphasize any part of their heritage that differs from straight white.  Thus, you get someone whose great-grandma was half-Indian going on and on about their Indian blood, for example.

I've thought that for a long time. That's why I've always claimed "White". And to an extent, I still agree with that. At the same time, I can see culture being the basis of racial claims, too.

None of it is cut and dried.

Sure it is.  I am the sword that cuts through these difficult problems.

[Neil]

I don't consider myself Native American.

White Power.

[Princesca]

Actually, in this real estate market, that might be a fair trade. 

[Malthus]

Not reading this huge thread - but basically, one must disentangle "race" from "ethnicity".

In general, "ethnicity" is a more or less self-chosen identification with a particular group, very often defined both by cultural traits and descent from a real or fictive common ancestry or origin.

"Race" is a subset of that, in that the common ancesty or origin is defined, not by yourself, but rather by a real or alleged physical similarity or genetic commonality.

It is a peculiarity of the US that the Black "race" (and to a lesser extent native american "race") is subject to the 'one drop rule' - in that even the smallest amount of Black features suffices to catagorize one, in the eyes of others, as "Black".

So while in general ethnicity is more or less self chosen, in the specific case of Black Americans one will be considered "Black" even if one has no Black cultural traits and only a visible minimum of Black shared ancestry. In contrast, by and large a person of hispanic origin could, if they so choose, self-identify as "White American" by adopting White American traits and identifying themselves as White; similarly with Jews and the like.

[merithyn]

Meri,


What about black kids who are adopted by white families? Could they self-identify as white?

On another note, though the US government has a loose definition of what constitutes Hispanic, many colleges and scholarship programs have a stricter definition: It tends to be 1/4 Hispanic by blood.

And besides, I thought you were Welsh-American? Are you that and Hispanic?

See, I would say that yes, black children adopted by white families can define themselves as white. And in fact, I suggested to the above-mentioned mother that she do just that with her mixed brood.

My biological family is Welsh - my great-grandfather and great-grandmother came to the states from Wales - but culturally, I'm not Welsh at all. In fact, I would say that any bit of Welsh I claim would be much more of an affectation that Mexican. And I still agree that by claiming a Mexican heritage it is an affectation, as well, just a more justified one.

[merithyn]

But Meri - when Cal and I met you, I never would have guessed in a million years that you had -any- Mexican heritage whatsoever, genetic, culturally, or otherwise. I don't remember you making any references. To me, if you truly are Mexican, even a stranger who met you for casual conversation once would pick up on it.

In what way? What would you pick up? We didn't eat at a Mexican restaurant where you'd hear my accent, and you'd see how I eat. We didn't go dancing at a Mexican club where I could show off my mad-Mexican dancing skills.

We met at a pub and then went to a museum. What you saw were my mad-geek culture, the same as yours or Timmy's.

Speaking of which, Timmy was different than you or I, either. Does that make him less culturally Hispanic?

[Princesca]

No, but I have truly hispanic friends who I can tell, from even a brief conversation, are hispanic. They might casually mention their abuela. They might have an accent. They (god forbid) LOOK hispanic. They might talk about their cousin's quinceanera. These are just examples.

I admit, I haven't read every thread you've ever posted in on Languish, but this is the first time, in all the years I've known of your existence, that I have ever heard you claim to be Mexican. I had no idea you even had any Mexican heritage, as aforementioned. My point is, you don't look Mexican, you didn't act in any respect Mexican, and I tend to think, if you truly are a race, it's something that comes to the fore wherever you are, not just when you're with Mexican relatives. I mean, if I stay a few weeks in Louisiana, I might pick up a Creole accent, but that doesn't make me Creole in any respect, nor does the fact that I might like and even know how to cook jambalaya.

[Caliga]

I'm getting horny.