What makes a person a particular race?

[garbon]

I knew you'd have an interesting take on this, as you live this every day.

My principal, a black woman, said  when we had this discussion that what I feel I am is what I am. I feel Mexican, because the most important of my formative years were, in fact, Mexican. And yet, to the outside world, I am white because that's what their eyes tell them I am when they see me. Lately, whenever I fill out paperwork, I've been putting down Hispanic White (as opposed to Non-Hispanic White). It seems more honest, and yet to some, I could see this as being complete bunk.

For our children at the middle school who are mixed and must decide which heritage to pick, it's an entirely different ball of wax. Especially when so many are being raised by their white or black grandparents. Which side do they pick? The side that's raising them? Or the side that determined their skin tone?

I certainly have sympathy for the moment that one says one can decide one's own racial affiliation, but I don't really think that's realistic. People will make judgments and treat you accordinly by their judgments, not your own.  I personally don't see why a person of "ambiguous" racial background should feel compelled to make a choice. What benefit does it convey for the individual?

[Lettow77]

Great prediction, valmy. Do you have others?

[merithyn]

Yeah the Hispanic and Latino thing confuses me.  Hispanic is a sub-category of white in this country (and I think it will become one in the US too), it's an ethnic-national background thing here, not at all to do with race.

I wonder if the difference is because of the larger numbers of mixed Hispanic-native in countries that have lots of emigrants to the US, like Mexico.

In the U.S. a person has the option of choosing "White - Non-Hispanic" or "Hispanic White". For most of my life, because of my genealogical roots, I've chosen the former. Lately - as in the last year or so - I've been choosing the later. This is becoming an issue because I am applying for grad school this fall, and I've put down that I am Hispanic, because that is what I am culturally. This means that according to the school, I am a minority.

[garbon]

I think race in this country is completely self identified.

But if they are applying for a black scholarship or something they probably need to have the right physical traits.

That second sentence belies the fiction in your first.

[Sheilbh]

What is the context?  I think race in this country is completely self identified.

But if they are applying for a black scholarship or something they probably need to have the right physical traits.

In our school district, a child must pick a race - a single race - when they register for school. "Other" is not an option, neither is "mixed race". So, in order to register for school, the parents much choose a race. If one is not chosen, the default is "white".

Mixed race is relatively recent.  That used to just mean 'black'.

The use of "Hispanic" as a racial classification in the U.S. is the result of politicians trying to suck up to voters with a Latin-American background.

White's a pretty amorphous concept.  It used to be that the Irish and the Jews were barely white.  I suspect Hispanic will be considered as white as Jew or Irish.

In the UK it would be 'White - Hispanic' like 'White - British' or 'White - Irish' not 'Hispanic White' or 'Non-Hispanic White'.

[jimmy olsen]

However race is often not that simple.  There are more and more people who are mixed race and they sort of get lumped into the ever increasing pile of 'brownish people of indeterminate origin' which is sorta where I predict most of humanity will end up eventually.

There's already a term for that

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AmbiguouslyBrown

[Admiral Yi]

The use of "Hispanic" as a racial classification in the U.S. is the result of politicians trying to suck up to voters with a Latin-American background.

I see it as attempt to shoehorn Puerto Ricans into the existing classification system.

[Sheilbh]

However race is often not that simple.  There are more and more people who are mixed race and they sort of get lumped into the ever increasing pile of 'brownish people of indeterminate origin' which is sorta where I predict most of humanity will end up eventually.

Yeah.  The fastest growing ethnic group in the UK is mixed race.

[Queequeg]

Yeah.  "White" has evolved in this country to basically mean "non-black" rather than of predominant European descent. 

[dps]

I knew you'd have an interesting take on this, as you live this every day.

My principal, a black woman, said  when we had this discussion that what I feel I am is what I am. I feel Mexican, because the most important of my formative years were, in fact, Mexican. And yet, to the outside world, I am white because that's what their eyes tell them I am when they see me. Lately, whenever I fill out paperwork, I've been putting down Hispanic White (as opposed to Non-Hispanic White). It seems more honest, and yet to some, I could see this as being complete bunk.

For our children at the middle school who are mixed and must decide which heritage to pick, it's an entirely different ball of wax. Especially when so many are being raised by their white or black grandparents. Which side do they pick? The side that's raising them? Or the side that determined their skin tone?

I certainly have sympathy for the moment that one says one can decide one's own racial affiliation, but I don't really think that's realistic. People will make judgments and treat you accordinly by their judgments, not your own.  I personally don't see why a person of "ambiguous" racial background should feel compelled to make a choice. What benefit does it convey for the individual?

Yeah, on things like that middle-school form, where the individual student isn't going to be eligible for any special program or benefits based on what race they're classified as, just mark a box at random, 'cause it doesn't matter anyway.  On the other hand, if you're the owner of a business and would like to get a govenment contract that has been earmarked to go to a minority owned business, identify yourself as being a member of the appropriate minority, if your physical appearance will let you pull it off.

[merithyn]

I certainly have sympathy for the moment that one says one can decide one's own racial affiliation, but I don't really think that's realistic. People will make judgments and treat you accordinly by their judgments, not your own.  I personally don't see why a person of "ambiguous" racial background should feel compelled to make a choice. What benefit does it convey for the individual?

Our district was under a court-mandated program to fix racially-motivated concerns that came about during the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Because of this, the district required families to identify as either black or other. They were not allowed to pick "mixed" or "other" as that didn't help them identify racial concerns in the district. White, hispanics, asians, and american indians were lumped together for the courts, and blacks were their own category. But on the forms, one was able to choose.

[jimmy olsen]

What is the context?  I think race in this country is completely self identified.

But if they are applying for a black scholarship or something they probably need to have the right physical traits.

In our school district, a child must pick a race - a single race - when they register for school. "Other" is not an option, neither is "mixed race". So, in order to register for school, the parents much choose a race. If one is not chosen, the default is "white".

Mixed race is relatively recent.  That used to just mean 'black'.

The use of "Hispanic" as a racial classification in the U.S. is the result of politicians trying to suck up to voters with a Latin-American background.

White's a pretty amorphous concept.  It used to be that the Irish and the Jews were barely white.  I suspect Hispanic will be considered as white as Jew or Irish.

In the UK it would be 'White - Hispanic' like 'White - British' or 'White - Irish' not 'Hispanic White' or 'Non-Hispanic White'.

Hispanic is a ridiculous made up term, covering whites, blacks and native americans from south of the Rio Grande. The census should get rid of it.

[dps]

Yeah the Hispanic and Latino thing confuses me.  Hispanic is a sub-category of white in this country (and I think it will become one in the US too), it's an ethnic-national background thing here, not at all to do with race.

I wonder if the difference is because of the larger numbers of mixed Hispanic-native in countries that have lots of emigrants to the US, like Mexico.

In the U.S. a person has the option of choosing "White - Non-Hispanic" or "Hispanic White". For most of my life, because of my genealogical roots, I've chosen the former. Lately - as in the last year or so - I've been choosing the later. This is becoming an issue because I am applying for grad school this fall, and I've put down that I am Hispanic, because that is what I am culturally. This means that according to the school, I am a minority.

I'm not sure about the situation now, but at one time, for certain purposes, the govenment considered you Hispanic if you had a Spanish surname.  Some member of the Lee family (as in the Lees of Virginia) legally changed his name to Rodriquez so he could get a scholarship or contract that was intended to go to a Hispanic person.  True story, though I may have some of the details wrong.

[garbon]

Our district was under a court-mandated program to fix racially-motivated concerns that came about during the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Because of this, the district required families to identify as either black or other. They were not allowed to pick "mixed" or "other" as that didn't help them identify racial concerns in the district. White, hispanics, asians, and american indians were lumped together for the courts, and blacks were their own category. But on the forms, one was able to choose.

Oh well under that scheme, always opt for the minority box. You ain't ever going to get nothing for being white...whereas I quickly found that the black box opened up doors for scholarships.

[merithyn]

Yeah, on things like that middle-school form, where the individual student isn't going to be eligible for any special program or benefits based on what race they're classified as, just mark a box at random, 'cause it doesn't matter anyway.  On the other hand, if you're the owner of a business and would like to get a govenment contract that has been earmarked to go to a minority owned business, identify yourself as being a member of the appropriate minority, if your physical appearance will let you pull it off.

Actually, it matters a great deal. In our district, a black student in Honors classes getting a C or lower as a grade will be matched with a tutor, brought in for an interview to determine why he or she isn't doing well, and basically watched over like a hawk. Any other student, on the other hand, won't even be brought in with a failing grade.