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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 11:02:20 AM

Title: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 11:02:20 AM
I don't want to interrupt the fine debate in the Scotia-Quebec independence thread1; but some of the comments made me curious on how French and English are taught in Canada.

1.)  Are students in French schools required to take English and vice-versa?  If so how much?
2.)  Are there bilingual schools similar to the US model; that is where most of the instruction is in the provinces dominant language, but part of the day is in the other official language?
3.)  If you are French/English Canadian how much English/French did you study?

(1.)  The audd alliance
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on September 12, 2014, 11:12:54 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 11:02:20 AM
I don't want to interrupt the fine debate in the Scotia-Quebec independence thread1; but some of the comments made me curious on how French and English are taught in Canada.

1.)  Are students in French schools required to take English and vice-versa?  If so how much?
2.)  Are there bilingual schools similar to the US model; that is where most of the instruction is in the provinces dominant language, but part of the day is in the other official language?
3.)  If you are French/English Canadian how much English/French did you study?

(1.)  The audd alliance

In the parts of English speaking of Canada I've been in, you usually take mandatory French starting at some point in elementary school. It goes on into part of high school, at which point it becomes optional (usually you're required one or two years in high school).

There are, as part of the public education system, French immersion schools where - starting from kindergarten, but with possible entry points at other times - the language of instruction is primarily French. There are also, I believe, some programs where French is heavily emphasized (started earlier); and where some of the classes are in also in French. These immersion schools are generally highly sought after by parents.

Personally, I had little French instruction, but that's because I came to Canada a few days before high school started and was busy enough getting my English sorted.

EDIT: also, French education tends to be more emphasized closer to Quebec and closer to the federal government, in my observation.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 12, 2014, 11:45:28 AM
Education varies by provinces.

In Quebec. We have both English & French schools system. They have different rules & requirement & curriculum.

English system offers French Immersion & French classes starting in Elementary school. This system seems to use a 6+7(or 8?) american type school.

The French system offers English Immersion (2nd, 4th & 6th year in Elementary school) and regular English classes starting 4th year. High School has English classes in all 5 years. This sytem uses a 6 Primary + 5 High School system.

All this tend to vary by schools & school system.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 12:17:31 PM
It's important to note that in Quebec access to English-language education is restricted - if you are a francophone, or if you are a new immigrant, you must send your child to french language school.

In Alberta we actually have about three different streams.  English-language education is standard, of course.  You have a separate French class at some point.

Second, there is French immersion.  It is designed to take english-speaking kids and make them fluent in French.

Finally, there are francophone schools, designed for children whose first language is french.


You can also throw in there are some schools offering German or Spanish immersion, as well as schools offering Ukrainian immersion.


For me, although French immersion has an appeal, in the end I'd like my kids to attend the highly-rated local school that they can walk to, rather than have to travel and take the bus.  So they'll get an English language education.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 12:25:50 PM
Interesting that despite the claims of strangulation and such, it is actually only the French who *demand* that certain population segments be forced into a particular language, regardless of their wishes otherwise.

That seems like the exact opposite of the complaints being made.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 12, 2014, 12:32:40 PM
I don't speak French.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 12, 2014, 12:37:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 12:25:50 PM
Interesting that despite the claims of strangulation and such, it is actually only the French who *demand* that certain population segments be forced into a particular language, regardless of their wishes otherwise.

That seems like the exact opposite of the complaints being made.

Do not do what, we Quebecers often do, and ignore the fact French Canada is not only Quebec.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Zoupa on September 12, 2014, 01:41:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 12:25:50 PM
Interesting that despite the claims of strangulation and such, it is actually only the French who *demand* that certain population segments be forced into a particular language, regardless of their wishes otherwise.

That seems like the exact opposite of the complaints being made.

There's always private school. Enough with the hyperbole.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 12, 2014, 01:43:28 PM
So who is right?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 12, 2014, 01:46:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 12:17:31 PM
Second, there is French immersion.

Somehow, the expression "French immersion" invokes in me images of being submerged in giant vats full of snails and brie.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 12, 2014, 01:48:38 PM
Great. Now I'm hungry.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 12, 2014, 01:55:19 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 12, 2014, 01:48:38 PM
Great. Now I'm hungry.

:perv:?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: derspiess on September 12, 2014, 01:57:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 12, 2014, 01:46:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 12:17:31 PM
Second, there is French immersion.

Somehow, the expression "French immersion" invokes in me images of being submerged in giant vats full of snails and brie.

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/rachael-ray/french-dip-sandwiches-recipe.html
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 01:58:42 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 12:17:31 PM
You can also throw in there are some schools offering German or Spanish immersion, as well as schools offering Ukrainian immersion.

They should require a certain percentage of the students be Russian immersion fifth columnists for added realism.

Are these public schools which offer non-official language immersion?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 12, 2014, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 12, 2014, 01:55:19 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 12, 2014, 01:48:38 PM
Great. Now I'm hungry.

:perv:?

Ew, no. Gross.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?

One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 02:13:39 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 01:58:42 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 12:17:31 PM
You can also throw in there are some schools offering German or Spanish immersion, as well as schools offering Ukrainian immersion.

They should require a certain percentage of the students be Russian immersion fifth columnists for added realism.

Are these public schools which offer non-official language immersion?

Yes.

Huh - I just looked it up - there are also Arabic, Mandarin, ASL, and Hebrew bilingual programs.

Now what this means is that there is one school in the entire city with that program, and if you want your kid to attend they have to be bussed all over the place.  But they do exist.  (and of course French immersion is massive when compared to the other languages).
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?

One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.

Depends what you mean familiarity.  I can't hold even a simple conversation in French, though I can identify a few words and very basic grammer.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: derspiess on September 12, 2014, 02:42:12 PM
:(
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: HVC on September 12, 2014, 02:52:44 PM
I had French from preschool (private) to grade 9. I started French in catholic school in grade 1, but I don't know if that's all of Ontario, or just the school board I was in. Unlike BB I used to be able to speak intelligible French, but much less so now. I could probably hold a grade 5 level conversation. It's been 15 years since my last French class, so I guess that's understandable.

What I found weird is that we learned Parisian French, not the French the speak in quebec.

Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 12, 2014, 02:57:28 PM
Problem is that if you don't actually use a language, you lose it quickly. Taking some classes in school is not enough.

Outside of Quebec, and a few other areas outside of Quebec, actual French speakers are a tiny minority in Canada. In Toronto, for example, there are almost exactly as many native speakers of Gujarati as there are native speakers of French - each form 1.1% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#Languages

In short, for many in the RoC, French tends to be useful if you travel, or want a Federal government job, but not for chatting with people around you.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 03:23:31 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 12, 2014, 01:41:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 12:25:50 PM
Interesting that despite the claims of strangulation and such, it is actually only the French who *demand* that certain population segments be forced into a particular language, regardless of their wishes otherwise.

That seems like the exact opposite of the complaints being made.

There's always private school. Enough with the hyperbole.

Wold you accept that argument if it was made in the other direction?

I suspect you would not - and really, your objection to hyperbole seems a little inconsistent.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 05:28:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 12, 2014, 02:57:28 PM
Problem is that if you don't actually use a language, you lose it quickly. Taking some classes in school is not enough.

Outside of Quebec, and a few other areas outside of Quebec, actual French speakers are a tiny minority in Canada. In Toronto, for example, there are almost exactly as many native speakers of Gujarati as there are native speakers of French - each form 1.1% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#Languages

In short, for many in the RoC, French tends to be useful if you travel, or want a Federal government job, but not for chatting with people around you.

Okay, then is it fair to conclude that Viper's concerns about lack of speakers, services and opportunities for Francophones in English Canada are justified; despite the emphasis on French language education in the provinces?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on September 12, 2014, 06:06:16 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 05:28:23 PM
Okay, then is it fair to conclude that Viper's concerns about lack of speakers, services and opportunities for Francophones in English Canada are justified; despite the emphasis on French language education in the provinces?

Put like that, yes.

The fact is that for most Anglophones (but not all), French is something you're forced to take, that you don't really enjoy, and that you slowly forget once you leave school.

Outside of Quebec, the level of (non-Federal) services available in French is pretty much related to the number of Francophones there. So in New Brunswick or Francophone areas of Ontario, there's plenty of it; in the areas nearby there is some. But once you head into areas where there are few Francophones altogether, you're not going to to see much in the way of services.

If you think that you should be able to interact with your environment primarily in French across Canada, then you are going to feel short changed. The level of French education does not allow a Francophone Canadian that he'll be able to go to most places of business in the country and speak French.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 06:23:28 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 12, 2014, 06:06:16 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 05:28:23 PM
Okay, then is it fair to conclude that Viper's concerns about lack of speakers, services and opportunities for Francophones in English Canada are justified; despite the emphasis on French language education in the provinces?

Put like that, yes.

The fact is that for most Anglophones (but not all), French is something you're forced to take, that you don't really enjoy, and that you slowly forget once you leave school.

Outside of Quebec, the level of (non-Federal) services available in French is pretty much related to the number of Francophones there. So in New Brunswick or Francophone areas of Ontario, there's plenty of it; in the areas nearby there is some. But once you head into areas where there are few Francophones altogether, you're not going to to see much in the way of services.

If you think that you should be able to interact with your environment primarily in French across Canada, then you are going to feel short changed. The level of French education does not allow a Francophone Canadian that he'll be able to go to most places of business in the country and speak French.

What I don't get is the idea that an independent Quebec would make that better somehow - it quite obviously would make it much, much worse, since there wouldn't be really any reason for the Canadian government to put the excessive amount of focus on French it does now in an effort to placate the French Canadians.

So in an independent Quebec, French would be the (obviously) primary language (just like it is now) and the rest of Canada would have no reason to cater to French speakers other than whatever it is they do now for any language other than Enlgish, presumably based on the number of speakers in the area in question.

Which suggests to me that the goal of what the independence crowd wants is very much about who is speaking French in Quebec...or rather, who is not.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 07:20:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 06:23:28 PM

...

Which suggests to me that the goal of what the independence crowd wants is very much about who is speaking French in Quebec...or rather, who is not.


As clueless as I expected you to be on the topic...  But I forget - according to Jacob only non Quebecers are authorities on the subject of Quebec and its independence movement... *shakes head*  What a ludicrous farce!

I'll tell you what would happen should we (finally) decide to leave this stinking federation - all current legal and constitutional protections & guarantees would be repealed faster than you can blink - and the remaining french minorities would be forced to assimilate so fast they wouldn't even have time to breathe.

I mean, we're still there and that's already their long term goal - it's been so since day one!  A token bilingualism while assimilation is encouraged on a daily basis.

WE are the only real bilingual citizens of this pretend bilingual federation.



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 12, 2014, 07:22:58 PM
My impression is that most, if not all, anglophone residents of Quebec are bilingual.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 07:57:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 12, 2014, 07:22:58 PM
My impression is that most, if not all, anglophone residents of Quebec are bilingual.


It all depends on how you define 'bilingual'.  I work in an anglophone milieu and while it is true several of the younger crowd can speak french - it oscillates between atrocious to rudimentary to passable.  Of course there are exceptions - some of them are actually fluently bilingual - but those merely confirm the rule. 

But then again I'm only one flawlessly bilingual man that actually lives in Montreal.  How could I possibly know anything about these things when compared to such luminaries as (unilingual) people living in Toronto, Vancouver or the US - RIGHT?  <_<



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 12, 2014, 08:03:21 PM
Grallon, the way it works is you're supposed to wait until *after* someone insults you to take offense.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 12, 2014, 08:05:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 12, 2014, 07:22:58 PM
My impression is that most, if not all, anglophone residents of Quebec are bilingual.
Not really no but if you restric to a group age, say 18-35, than your impression is fairly correct.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 08:19:07 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 12, 2014, 08:03:21 PM
Grallon, the way it works is you're supposed to wait until *after* someone insults you to take offense.


I wasn't responding to you Yi  ;)



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 09:51:03 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 07:20:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 06:23:28 PM

...

Which suggests to me that the goal of what the independence crowd wants is very much about who is speaking French in Quebec...or rather, who is not.


As clueless as I expected you to be on the topic...  But I forget - according to Jacob only non Quebecers are authorities on the subject of Quebec and its independence movement... *shakes head*  What a ludicrous farce!

I'll tell you what would happen should we (finally) decide to leave this stinking federation - all current legal and constitutional protections & guarantees would be repealed faster than you can blink - and the remaining french minorities would be forced to assimilate so fast they wouldn't even have time to breathe.

I mean, we're still there and that's already their long term goal - it's been so since day one!  A token bilingualism while assimilation is encouraged on a daily basis.

WE are the only real bilingual citizens of this pretend bilingual federation.



G.

Funny that you accuse me of being clueless and then immediately affirm exactly my point.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 09:59:20 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 07:20:10 PM


I'll tell you what would happen should we (finally) decide to leave this stinking federation - all current legal and constitutional protections & guarantees would be repealed faster than you can blink -
G.

And you guys wonder why you get called nazis.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 10:16:47 PM
...

This doesn't even deserve an answer.



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 10:35:21 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 11:02:20 AM
3.)  If you are French/English Canadian how much English/French did you study?
sufficient knowledge of English as a second language is required for many university faculties.

Keep in mind that after high school (if we intend to go to a university), we first go to College for 2 or 3 years, depending on the field of study (the 3 year is somewhat credited in university, if you have sufficient grades).

Using my experience of college, you have basic english, intermediate english, advanced english, and literary english.  Litereray english is often not teached outside of Quebec city and Montreal's colleges beceause there's not enough people good enough to attend this. 

So, using this system, many university faculties require a level of intermediate english to be graduated.  If you didn't reach this level in College, you have to attend classes at university.  College is mostly free (a few hundred bucks per term), university is a few thousand per terms.  The quality of english education is very good in semi-private & private schools, excellent in college and universities, average in public schools (but so are maths and french classes, but these differences no longer shows by the time you reach university).

Pre-college schools in Quebec is restricted to french for those students whose parents attended french schools.
If at least one parent has attended english school in any Commonwealth country, they are allowed to send their kids to english public schools.

There are three kind of schools in Quebec (pre-university):
- public (100% subsidized)
- semi-private (60% subsidized)
- private (0% subsidized)

While most people will not make any distinction between the last two, they are important for language classifications.
Francophones parents, or American parents, willing to send their kids to an english school will need to do so at a private school (0% subsidies).

The military are allowed to send their kids to any school they want, so long as there is one in their community.  Wich isn't a problem where there are bases in Quebec.

If a child attends english private schools for a few years, it is then possible for it to transfer to a public english school and then obtain the same rights for his future kids.

Nothing extremely harsh.  The laws lack some flexibility, I myself would simply offer english school to children who already started school in english outside Quebec, no matter if it's New York or London.  that whole Commonwealth thing is a bit of sillyness imposed by the Supreme court.

Immersion is new for this year. Or last year.  Can't remember.  Anyway, about half of the last year in elementary school is done in English if you're attending french school.

Other types of specialized schools exists, both public and fully private, some offering classes in english, spanish & french, but I don't know much about them.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 10:41:02 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 10:16:47 PM
...

This doesn't even deserve an answer.



G.

Yeah, because what is there to say? You have affirmed my suspicion that the desire for independence is motivated by a wish to restrict others freedom, which the Canadian government will not allow.

Personally, I think calling you a nazi is probably a little over much, but I can certainly understand why people might use the term to describe someone advocating state sponsored bigotry and intolerance.

Must suck for the vipers out there to have people like you on his side.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 10:43:27 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?
French speakers start english lessons in 1st grade.
English speakers start french lessons in 7th grade.

Quote
One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.
Canada already does a poor job at that.  Yes, it would be worst for them in case of Quebec seperation, wich is why you don't see many "5th column" promoting Quebec sovereignty in Manitoba ;)

French education was forbidden for nearly 100 years (early after the confederation/integration of the province in the confederation) in most provinces of Canada, Manitoba was the last be ordered to finance public schools in the 90s.  New Brunswick and Ontario won their battle in the 70s/80s.  It was also naturally forbiden for any laws.  Even today in Alberta, laws aren't translated and if there are contradictions between english and french texts, english prevails.

That made assimilation go way faster than had French been tolerated, put on equal terms with english.  So now, many english canadians are invoking the fact that there are not enough french speakers in their community to provide services in french.

What you see nowadays is parents turning toward private immersion schools because public schools are simply abandoning french classes.  It's a way to get around the law for provinces, mostly.

And the Federal government refuses to set a foot in this debate.  But I wouldn't even try it in Quebec, if I wanted to deprive our English speaking friends of their rights.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 10:46:53 PM
I was describing what the Anglo Canadian govt would do after we leave their federation you moron.   Pfff  You can't even read English properly.




G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:48:50 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 10:43:27 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?
French speakers start english lessons in 1st grade.
English speakers start french lessons in 7th grade.

It likely goes without saying, but that's probably overly broad, right?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 10:48:57 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 10:46:53 PM
I was describing what the Anglo Canadian govt would do after we leave their federation you moron.   Pfff  You can't even read English properly.




G.

Of course you were.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:49:33 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 10:46:53 PM
I was describing what the Anglo Canadian govt would do after we leave their federation you moron.   Pfff  You can't even read English properly.




G.

But that doesn't really make sense. Even here in the US, we afford some support for non-English languages. I don't see why the remainder of Canada would not.

Besides, do you deny B's charge that you'd want to clamp down / make French the language to speak in Quebec?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:00:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 12, 2014, 07:22:58 PM
My impression is that most, if not all, anglophone residents of Quebec are bilingual.
88% as of 2011. 80% for 0-19.
It's good, but compare this to French-English bilinguism outside of Quebec.  Unless you rely on someone else, pretty much impossible to really be unilingual french, even in predominantly french areas.

French-english bilinguism in Quebec is at 36% (54% for 20-44yo).  Way too low.  But the recent changes in english education, despite heavy resistance from the left, should help in the long term.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:06:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:49:33 PM

But that doesn't really make sense. Even here in the US, we afford some support for non-English languages. I don't see why the remainder of Canada would not.

Let's just say that Canada - the Anglo portion of it - doesn't have the same confidence in itself that America has...  Plus we know them a great deal more than you people do....


Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:49:33 PM
Besides, do you deny B's charge that you'd want to clamp down / make French the language to speak in Quebec?

French *is* already the only official public language now - this would merely be reaffirmed and enforced.  Speak whatever you like in your private homes and private institutions - but when you come out in public - you bloody well better be speaking french.  Isn't this the very definition of individual rights?

Unless you utterly reject the very notion of a french speaking public sphere of course...



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:06:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:48:50 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 10:43:27 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?
French speakers start english lessons in 1st grade.
English speakers start french lessons in 7th grade.

It likely goes without saying, but that's probably overly broad, right?
I think it's 1hr a week in 1st to 3rd grade.  It then increases gradually in 4th, 5th grade and then half a year in english for 6th grade, for all classes.
Can't be sure about the exact numbers, don't trust me on this.  Tried to find it, found a lenghy document filled with educational mumbo jumbo that doesn't make any sense, can't find the total hours per week dedicated to english, decided to forget about it.

As for the english, this is valid for Ontario and New Brunswick. Don't think it's radically different in other provinces.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Razgovory on September 12, 2014, 11:06:49 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 10:16:47 PM
...

This doesn't even deserve an answer.



G.

You probably shouldn't use a statue representing the Nazi party as your avatar if you don't like being called a Nazi.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Zoupa on September 12, 2014, 11:16:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 03:23:31 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on September 12, 2014, 01:41:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 12:25:50 PM
Interesting that despite the claims of strangulation and such, it is actually only the French who *demand* that certain population segments be forced into a particular language, regardless of their wishes otherwise.

That seems like the exact opposite of the complaints being made.

There's always private school. Enough with the hyperbole.

Wold you accept that argument if it was made in the other direction?

I suspect you would not - and really, your objection to hyperbole seems a little inconsistent.

If a province was unilingual anglophone, of course I would.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:18:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 12, 2014, 11:06:49 PM

You probably shouldn't use a statue representing the Nazi party as your avatar if you don't like being called a Nazi.


Whenever I read you I'm reminded of a monkey - monkeying it up to his handlers to prove them he's not a monkey.  Go away!  Choo!  Disappear.

Yes the picture is from one of the statue of the Nurnberg stadium built by the Nazis - and yet you do not even grasp its meaning.



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:20:08 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:06:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:49:33 PM

But that doesn't really make sense. Even here in the US, we afford some support for non-English languages. I don't see why the remainder of Canada would not.

Let's just say that Canada - the Anglo portion of it - doesn't have the same confidence in itself that America has...  Plus we know them a great deal more than you people do....

I think it is the French speakers that lack confidence. They seem quite certain that this culture will die absent the states power to enforce its acceptance.

Which is really, do course, what this is all about.

Quote


Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:49:33 PM
Besides, do you deny B's charge that you'd want to clamp down / make French the language to speak in Quebec?

French *is* already the only official public language now - this would merely be reaffirmed and enforced. 

Why should it be enforced? If it is so great and swell, why do you need to use force to get people to speak French?

Quote

Speak whatever you like in your private homes and private institutions - but when you come out in public - you bloody well better be speaking french. 

Intolerant much?

Quote


Isn't this the very definition of individual rights?

Not even remotely. Individual rights apply in public as well as in private.


Quote
Unless you utterly reject the very notion of a french speaking public sphere of course...

What if you truly respect individual rights and hence think people should speak whatever they like, wherever they like?

And if the French culture and language is worthy of survival, it will do so and thrive. If not, oh well.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:22:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:49:33 PM
Besides, do you deny B's charge that you'd want to clamp down / make French the language to speak in Quebec?
He sees fairies where there are none.  He "suspects" things while ignoring how we came to that, and he refuses to learn about it.  What is it you want us to deny? 

Whatever we could tell you, would you even believe us?  I can't read the future, all I can do, is judge the PQ by its actions.  And so far, even when it could (having a majority), it has steadily refused to clamp down on English speaker's rights anymore than now.

Like all party, the PQ has its extremists.  They also have a great deal of morons and socialists, but that's another matter.

Extremists wants English forbidden.  Zero english.  No english on the phone when you call a business place in Quebec.  No "Hello" in store.  No public english education and no subsidies for private schools.

The PQ is no different than the GOP with its Tea Party, except Quebec's version of Tea Party is not the one calling the shots.  Doesn't prevent the party from doing stupid things to try and provoke crisis that they think would benefit them, but there are no neo-nazis in the top brass (nor the middle brass), despite what English canada's cartoons may reflect.

You'll find radical anglos and radical anti-immigrants in the voters for sure.  Just like the Conservative party of Canada attracts the neo-nazi vote and the anti-bilinguism crowd.  Doesn't mean they seek them on purpose.  Well, the PQ under Pauline Marois liked to cultivate extremism, as they thought it would be good for their vote.  They were wrong, I'm happy she's gone.  And I'm also happy this party is heading nowhere with the brainless candidates they still have.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:25:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:20:08 PM
What if you truly respect individual rights and hence think people should speak whatever they like, wherever they like?
And what if I like to speak French and not English?  Then I have no rights?

Quote
And if the French culture and language is worthy of survival, it will do so and thrive. If not, oh well.
So, there'd be no problem forbidding English education totally then.  Shutting down english hospitals&colleges too.  Forbidding the airing of english tv and radio channels, so we can use the bandwith space for more french channels :)

English is certainly a culture that is worthy of survival, no?  If not, oh well.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:25:23 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:06:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:49:33 PM
Besides, do you deny B's charge that you'd want to clamp down / make French the language to speak in Quebec?

French *is* already the only official public language now - this would merely be reaffirmed and enforced.  Speak whatever you like in your private homes and private institutions - but when you come out in public - you bloody well better be speaking french.  Isn't this the very definition of individual rights?

Unless you utterly reject the very notion of a french speaking public sphere of course...

G.

That sounds rather hostile to tourism. I'm glad that wasn't in place during my trips to Montreal and Quebec City.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:29:32 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:06:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:49:33 PM

But that doesn't really make sense. Even here in the US, we afford some support for non-English languages. I don't see why the remainder of Canada would not.

Let's just say that Canada - the Anglo portion of it - doesn't have the same confidence in itself that America has...  Plus we know them a great deal more than you people do....

Wait, I have to come back to this. Are you saying that Canada fears that if it doesn't stamp French out that English will lose its special place?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:29:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:20:08 PM
Not even remotely. Individual rights apply in public as well as in private.
You have an individual right to possess a firearm.  Maybe even carry it with you anywhere you want, I'm unsure of New York's (well, I'm unsure of any State's) regulations on conceal&carry.

Are you allowed to discharge your firearm anywhere you want?  It is your individual right, after all.  Shooting in the air, over a river, knowing what you do, it ain't terribly dangerous, the bullet will fall in the river.

What if you want to pee, suddenly, in the middle of New York City.  No toilet near you.  Peeing is certainly an individual's right.  I guess you could relieve yourself in an alley, no problem at all?  It doesn't harm anyone, it only smells bad after a couple of hours.  Can't stop at some silly shit like a collective right to enjoy a good environment, can't wee?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:31:09 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:25:20 PM
So, there'd be no problem forbidding English education totally then.  Shutting down english hospitals&colleges too.  Forbidding the airing of english tv and radio channels, so we can use the bandwith space for more french channels :)

English is certainly a culture that is worthy of survival, no?  If not, oh well.

Is Canada forbidding those things for French?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:31:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:29:44 PM
Can't stop at some silly shit like a collective right to enjoy a good environment, can't wee?

Did you just compare speaking English in public to peeing in public? :hmm:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:33:36 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:22:41 PM
Whatever we could tell you, would you even believe us?

Well it is a bit hard to believe you when you speak so disdainfully of anglophones.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:34:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:25:23 PM
Wait, I have to come back to this. Are you saying that Canada fears that if it doesn't stamp French out that English will lose its special place?
That over time English would be a plurality and not a majority?  Hmm.  In the early times of the confederation, yes, certainly.
Today, not so much anymore.  It's just that now that the language is almost extinct in many places, they don't see the need to nurture it so it can come back. 

And many Canadians have trouble understanding that Quebec wants to keep its language and culture.  From a country that has constantly feared American invasion, first military, now culturally, that is funny, in a way.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:36:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:31:52 PM
Did you just compare speaking English in public to peeing in public? :hmm:
Well, I'm sure even Grallon wouldn't mind you spoke to yourself in English while walking down the street... ;)

But the point is, you usually don't speak english alone.  It requires someone to respond to you. Wich means, one of the two is forced to use the other's language.  Wich right should preced the other?  You individual right to speak english or my individual right to speak french?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:37:53 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:25:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:20:08 PM
What if you truly respect individual rights and hence think people should speak whatever they like, wherever they like?
And what if I like to speak French and not English?  Then I have no rights?
Quote

Then of course you have the right to speak French.


Quote
And if the French culture and language is worthy of survival, it will do so and thrive. If not, oh well.
So, there'd be no problem forbidding English education totally then.  Shutting down english hospitals&colleges too.  Forbidding the airing of english tv and radio channels, so we can use the bandwith space for more french channels :)


That would be a terrible thing to do. Of course, nobody is forbidding French education, so the parallel is fictional. Not allowing you to deny others the freedom you demand for yourself is not a denial of your rights.

Quote

English is certainly a culture that is worthy of survival, no?  If not, oh well.

Exactly. So let people do what they want, and don't pass any laws around any of it outside what is necessary for the government itself to function.

Nothing wrong with Quebec having French as the primary language, and the language of government. But you don't need to force people to use it, and if there are significant non French speakers you should be as tolerant of them in Quebec as you would expect people outside Quebec to be tolerant of the French speakers, within reason.

The problem though is that I suspect what is demographically true is that if you did that, over the long run French speaking would decline, and that is what you are really fighting. You want the power of the state to try to fight that demographic reality.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:38:21 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:34:50 PM
And many Canadians have trouble understanding that Quebec wants to keep its language and culture.

But the way you do that is by getting your future generations invested/interested/dare I say excited about your language and culture. Propping them up by artificial means like laws aren't going to matter much if people are uninterested.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:42:25 PM
These maggots are playing you Viper.  Do stop responding to them!

Come and join us already - rather than trying to make foreigners see what they are unable to see and understand what they are unable to understand.

I mean, if this crowd doesn't turn you into a staunch separatist I don't know what will!




G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:42:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:33:36 PM
Well it is a bit hard to believe you when you speak so disdainfully of anglophones.
What have I done again?

Berkut has been calling me and people like me nazis since the beginning of the other thread.  Martinus and Raz are trolling as usual.  Should I keep answering nicely with flowers too?

Look, I did not insult anglophones, I did not speak disdainfully of anglophones.  I never made any comments regarding some form of French superiority (certainly as a joke sometimes, certainly never seriously).  But you guys keep seeing things that aren't there.  What can I say that will make you believe me?  Where you mugged for speaking English in Montreal?  Where people rude to you in Quebec city because you didn't speak french?

What's so hard to understand that we're not a bunch of neo-nazis?  I'm sure even Grallon is a nice fellow in person and you'de have fun spending an evening together chatting about canadian politics...

So, what can I do to prove the non existant?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:43:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:38:21 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:34:50 PM
And many Canadians have trouble understanding that Quebec wants to keep its language and culture.

But the way you do that is by getting your future generations invested/interested/dare I say excited about your language and culture. Propping them up by artificial means like laws aren't going to matter much if people are uninterested.

Exactly. This is why I reject the notion that in a western liberal society people have the right to secede if they don't get their way. It is basically saying that if you cannot win in the court of public opinion, then let's just change the court to only include people who agree with me, so we can persecute the remainder who do not.

Which is exactly what is being proposed. The French culture is so valuable, that if we cannot get people to accept it voluntarily, no matter, let's just force it on them with the power of the state.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:44:31 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:42:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:33:36 PM
Well it is a bit hard to believe you when you speak so disdainfully of anglophones.
What have I done again?

Berkut has been calling me and people like me nazis since the beginning of the other thread. 
that is simply a lie. I've never called you a nazi.

Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:49:59 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:42:25 PM
Come and join us already - rather than trying to make foreigners see what they are unable to see and understand what they are unable to understand.

Well, BB understands my position better now, I think.  And Malthus is slightly less hostile than 14 years ago.

Of course, trying to convince any of them that seperation is the best option for Quebec and Canada would be pointless, just as trying to convince you and I that the 1982 Constitution is the best thing invented since sliced bread ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:53:21 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:42:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:33:36 PM
Well it is a bit hard to believe you when you speak so disdainfully of anglophones.
What have I done again?

Berkut has been calling me and people like me nazis since the beginning of the other thread.  Martinus and Raz are trolling as usual.  Should I keep answering nicely with flowers too?

Look, I did not insult anglophones, I did not speak disdainfully of anglophones.  I never made any comments regarding some form of French superiority (certainly as a joke sometimes, certainly never seriously).  But you guys keep seeing things that aren't there.  What can I say that will make you believe me?  Where you mugged for speaking English in Montreal?  Where people rude to you in Quebec city because you didn't speak french?

What's so hard to understand that we're not a bunch of neo-nazis?  I'm sure even Grallon is a nice fellow in person and you'de have fun spending an evening together chatting about canadian politics...

So, what can I do to prove the non existant?

In response to Berk's exchange with G that people speaking English should be able to do so in public and private, you said:

QuoteWhat if you want to pee, suddenly, in the middle of New York City.  No toilet near you.  Peeing is certainly an individual's right.  I guess you could relieve yourself in an alley, no problem at all?  It doesn't harm anyone, it only smells bad after a couple of hours.  Can't stop at some silly shit like a collective right to enjoy a good environment, can't wee?

Now, of course, I don't think you actually have negative perceptions of anglophones (unless you were quite the actor when we met :D) but it does seem that you are propping up grallon's rather...intolerant position.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:57:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:44:31 PM
that is simply a lie. I've never called you a nazi.


The idiot doesn't even realize what's he's done...  It fucking boggles the mind - how blinded these people can be!

Well... I should say I'm pretty convinced that Viper will come here with an explanation for your behavior... So yeah - there's worse that can boggle the mind - such as the apparent unending Fench-Canadian reservoir for charity towards those who abuse them.  Gods above and below!  Right here and there is the very reason why independence is necessary: to break that spell of submission!


G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:59:15 PM
You sure do love being a victim,
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:00:59 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:49:59 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:42:25 PM
Come and join us already - rather than trying to make foreigners see what they are unable to see and understand what they are unable to understand.

Well, BB understands my position better now, I think.  And Malthus is slightly less hostile than 14 years ago.

Of course, trying to convince any of them that seperation is the best option for Quebec and Canada would be pointless, just as trying to convince you and I that the 1982 Constitution is the best thing invented since sliced bread ;)

I think you mistake people not agreeing with you with people not understanding you,

It could be they understand you and gallon fine, and they don't agree that limiting others freedom to protect your tribes perceived "identity" is what is best for anyone. Not even you,
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:01:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:38:21 PM
But the way you do that is by getting your future generations invested/interested/dare I say excited about your language and culture. Propping them up by artificial means like laws aren't going to matter much if people are uninterested.
So, you believe in unequal competition.  Like in the thread about Tesla, where a state wants to forbid them to sell their cars directly to consumers, what would be the net effect, you think, over a few years?  People are going to drive a few hundred km to buy a Tesla from a salesman or they will turn toward other alternatives?
Is there free market in these conditions?
What if 10 years from now, because of such maket conditions a little everywhere, Tesla is on the brink of bankruptcy while GM, Ford & Chrysler have had their best decade.  Now, in 10 years, the states repel those laws, Tesla can finally sell directly to consumers.

What do you think happenned in this time frame?  Tesla was able to make its car attractive/interesting/daring to consumers?  Or more likely, the American car dealers have now occuppied most of the market, bridge the technological gap with Tesla and started their own direct-to-consumer sales?
Is it simply enough now for Tesla to survive than making it equal after discriminating for so many years?


That's the problem with language.  Just like an endangered species, if you don't do anything after over-hunting, it will be extinct anyway.

A language depends on critical mass.  All the more so in places where they use the argument of "insufficient" numbers to deny services to the minority.  It will simply keep going the extinction way.

Had things been always equal in Canada, there would be 2-3 provinces with a French majority.  And there would be no such things as language laws to protect French, most likely.

But this is not alt-history, it is reality.  French language and education were forbidden in most of Canada, English was necessary to advance to any decent position in Quebec for years and they only started to change in the 60s, with the advent of laws to protect French.

Yes, it is sad it has to be forced.  But it is necessary.  Just like it is sad that we need basic laws forbidding murders and thievery when everyone should simply refrain from harming others.  But we live in the real world, not some utopia.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:02:30 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:44:31 PM
that is simply a lie. I've never called you a nazi.

Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 09:59:20 PM
And you guys wonder why you get called nazis.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:03:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:43:02 PM
Exactly. This is why I reject the notion that in a western liberal society people have the right to secede if they don't get their way.
do individuals have the right to form an association of some kind or are they limited in their individual rights to enter collective agreements?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:04:10 AM
I don't accept that there is some historical justification for current and future state mandated intolerance and discrimination.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:06:19 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:53:21 PM
Now, of course, I don't think you actually have negative perceptions of anglophones (unless you were quite the actor when we met :D) but it does seem that you are propping up grallon's rather...intolerant position.
That's because you take Grallon's meaning too literally.  I don't think he'd slapp you for speaking english if you met him ;)


And I'm not an actor, I suck at everything artistic :P
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:06:44 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:02:30 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:44:31 PM
that is simply a lie. I've never called you a nazi.

Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 09:59:20 PM
And you guys wonder why you get called nazis.

That is not calling you a nazi. That is pointing out that there is a reason other people have done so. It is not saying the reason is valid or fair.

In fact, the one time I did specifically mention nazis, I specifically said I did not think it was a reasonable label.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:07:11 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:04:10 AM
I don't accept that there is some historical justification for current and future state mandated intolerance and discrimination.
Then you don't accept history to explain the present.  You don't accept that we are byproducts of the society we evolved in, everything is pre-determined at birth.  Strange concept, I admit...
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:08:20 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:03:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 12, 2014, 11:43:02 PM
Exactly. This is why I reject the notion that in a western liberal society people have the right to secede if they don't get their way.
do individuals have the right to form an association of some kind or are they limited in their individual rights to enter collective agreements?

Depends. You can't mask state impinging on individual rights by calling it a "collective agreement" to do so.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 12:08:52 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:01:37 AM
Yes, it is sad it has to be forced.  But it is necessary.  Just like it is sad that we need basic laws forbidding murders and thievery when everyone should simply refrain from harming others.  But we live in the real world, not some utopia.

But I don't think it is necessary - in that it will prove successful. You are only delaying the inevitable if the populace is not invested in seeing the language/culture thrive.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 12:10:19 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:07:11 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:04:10 AM
I don't accept that there is some historical justification for current and future state mandated intolerance and discrimination.
Then you don't accept history to explain the present.  You don't accept that we are byproducts of the society we evolved in, everything is pre-determined at birth.  Strange concept, I admit...

The past might inform the present but it doesn't have to dictate the future. ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:12:12 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:07:11 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:04:10 AM
I don't accept that there is some historical justification for current and future state mandated intolerance and discrimination.
Then you don't accept history to explain the present.  You don't accept that we are byproducts of the society we evolved in, everything is pre-determined at birth.  Strange concept, I admit...

No, I don't accept the idea that we can use past claims of injustice to validate current and future demands that we tolerate our own bigotry.

Understanding history does not lead to the desire to discriminate against others, quite the opposite in fact.

I submit that those demanding that they have the right to deny others freedom are evidencing that they are the ones who do not understand the lessons of history.

The language you are using is no different than listening to the KKK validate their need for laws to "protect their culture", and while considerably less personally onerous in its application, it it identically invalid in its logic and humanity.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
Guys, I'd just ignore Berkut.  He's on his "I'm the only one who truly understands human rights and liberty" kick he sometimes goes on.

I mean - self-determination has been widely understood as a right for over a century - but Berkut marches in to say it shouldn't exist because he says so.  He's just on a different wavelength than most people.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 12:19:11 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
I mean - self-determination has been widely understood as a right for over a century - but Berkut marches in to say it shouldn't exist because he says so.  He's just on a different wavelength than most people.

Lots of things have been understood for long periods of time. That doesn't mean they are good things or worthy of being supported.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 12:22:42 AM
Besides, I think B has been rather clear on why he opposes it in liberal Western societies.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Razgovory on September 13, 2014, 12:30:22 AM
Quote from: Grallon on September 12, 2014, 11:18:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 12, 2014, 11:06:49 PM

You probably shouldn't use a statue representing the Nazi party as your avatar if you don't like being called a Nazi.


Whenever I read you I'm reminded of a monkey - monkeying it up to his handlers to prove them he's not a monkey.  Go away!  Choo!  Disappear.

Yes the picture is from one of the statue of the Nurnberg stadium built by the Nazis - and yet you do not even grasp its meaning.



G.

And who are my handlers?  The Jews?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
Guys, I'd just ignore Berkut.  He's on his "I'm the only one who truly understands human rights and liberty" kick he sometimes goes on.

I mean - self-determination has been widely understood as a right for over a century - but Berkut marches in to say it shouldn't exist because he says so.  He's just on a different wavelength than most people.

Unilateral self determination has NEVER been understood as a right, ever. That is simply not true, and it is truly unfair to claim that I've only supported my position "because I said so". You might not agree with my arguments, but to claim I haven't made them is simply not at all true.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 12:35:09 AM
The amount of unwarranted and offensive xenophobic butthurt from the francophones in this thread is just amazing. If Canadian politics is anything like that, it would probably be better for Canada to let Quebec go, just to get rid of people like that.  :lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 12:40:36 AM
Incidentally, if I have ever, prior to my ban, acted any way like grallon in this thread, then I truly wish to apologise.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:40:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
Guys, I'd just ignore Berkut.  He's on his "I'm the only one who truly understands human rights and liberty" kick he sometimes goes on.

I mean - self-determination has been widely understood as a right for over a century - but Berkut marches in to say it shouldn't exist because he says so.  He's just on a different wavelength than most people.

Unilateral self determination has NEVER been understood as a right, ever. That is simply not true, and it is truly unfair to claim that I've only supported my position "because I said so". You might not agree with my arguments, but to claim I haven't made them is simply not at all true.

:huh:

It goes back as far as Wilson's 14 points.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:42:26 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:40:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
Guys, I'd just ignore Berkut.  He's on his "I'm the only one who truly understands human rights and liberty" kick he sometimes goes on.

I mean - self-determination has been widely understood as a right for over a century - but Berkut marches in to say it shouldn't exist because he says so.  He's just on a different wavelength than most people.

Unilateral self determination has NEVER been understood as a right, ever. That is simply not true, and it is truly unfair to claim that I've only supported my position "because I said so". You might not agree with my arguments, but to claim I haven't made them is simply not at all true.

:huh:

It goes back as far as Wilson's 14 points.

You confuse a consideration for self-determination as one of many, many factors involved with a unilateral right to self-determination, which for many reasons I've pointed out and you've ignored, simply does not exist - indeed, cannot exist.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 12:44:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:40:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
Guys, I'd just ignore Berkut.  He's on his "I'm the only one who truly understands human rights and liberty" kick he sometimes goes on.

I mean - self-determination has been widely understood as a right for over a century - but Berkut marches in to say it shouldn't exist because he says so.  He's just on a different wavelength than most people.

Unilateral self determination has NEVER been understood as a right, ever. That is simply not true, and it is truly unfair to claim that I've only supported my position "because I said so". You might not agree with my arguments, but to claim I haven't made them is simply not at all true.

:huh:

It goes back as far as Wilson's 14 points.

It is slightly more complex than that. Wilson's 14 points addressed a political reality where Central and Eastern Europe operated in what would, by today's standards, be considered close to apartheid. Right now, the position, especially in liberal democracies, is more ambiguous I would say - there is no unilateral and absolute right of any ethnic minority occupying a given territory to secede (no "People's Republic of Chinatown, NYC" for you).
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:47:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:42:26 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:40:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
Guys, I'd just ignore Berkut.  He's on his "I'm the only one who truly understands human rights and liberty" kick he sometimes goes on.

I mean - self-determination has been widely understood as a right for over a century - but Berkut marches in to say it shouldn't exist because he says so.  He's just on a different wavelength than most people.

Unilateral self determination has NEVER been understood as a right, ever. That is simply not true, and it is truly unfair to claim that I've only supported my position "because I said so". You might not agree with my arguments, but to claim I haven't made them is simply not at all true.

:huh:

It goes back as far as Wilson's 14 points.

You confuse a consideration for self-determination as one of many, many factors involved with a unilateral right to self-determination, which for many reasons I've pointed out and you've ignored, simply does not exist - indeed, cannot exist.

Except that both Canada, and the UK, have recognized that it does exist.

You can quibble about the details, but if Quebec, or Scotland, want to be independent, the nations involved have agreed they should be allowed to.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 12:50:52 AM
What about Donetsk and Crimea?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:52:06 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:47:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:42:26 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:40:47 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 12:16:42 AM
Guys, I'd just ignore Berkut.  He's on his "I'm the only one who truly understands human rights and liberty" kick he sometimes goes on.

I mean - self-determination has been widely understood as a right for over a century - but Berkut marches in to say it shouldn't exist because he says so.  He's just on a different wavelength than most people.

Unilateral self determination has NEVER been understood as a right, ever. That is simply not true, and it is truly unfair to claim that I've only supported my position "because I said so". You might not agree with my arguments, but to claim I haven't made them is simply not at all true.

:huh:

It goes back as far as Wilson's 14 points.

You confuse a consideration for self-determination as one of many, many factors involved with a unilateral right to self-determination, which for many reasons I've pointed out and you've ignored, simply does not exist - indeed, cannot exist.

Except that both Canada, and the UK, have recognized that it does exist.

You can quibble about the details, but if Quebec, or Scotland, want to be independent, the nations involved have agreed they should be allowed to.

That is because they have decided that they can due to a variety of factors, self-determination being only one of them.

They have not said that any group that wants to secede can do so. Hence no unilateral self-determination.

And I am not arguing that if the Scots vote to secede, the UK should invade and subjugate them and force them to stay, the same with Quebec.

Hell, if the US had decided that the South could secede (say they ahd passed a law in Congress stipulating how that might happen and it was signed by the President) then that would certainly be legal (again, it would be a bad thing to do, and I am glad they did not) but perfectly legal and most decidedly NOT a example of a unilateral right to self-determination.
Title: more quebec
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 12:58:56 AM
Ok, wikipedia to the rescue:

There is a right of nations to self-determination, but when it conflicts with the territorial integrity of states, the latter takes precedence:

"National self-determination appears to challenge the principle of territorial integrity (or sovereignty) of states as it is the will of the people that makes a state legitimate. This implies a people should be free to choose their own state and its territorial boundaries. However, there are far more self-identified nations than there are existing states and there is no legal process to redraw state boundaries according to the will of these peoples.[44] According to the Helsinki Final Act of 1975, the UN, ICJ and international law experts, there is no contradiction between the principles of self-determination and territorial integrity, with the latter taking precedence."

So in short, Scots can decide to leave the UK and form a new state, but if they want to take the part of the UK territory they consider "Scotland" with them, the UK has to agree. Likewise, the Quebecois can just fuck off from Canada and move to France, but if they want to take a part of the Canadian territory with them, then Canada has a say in that. :contract:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination#Self-determination_versus_territorial_integrity
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 01:01:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 12:50:52 AM
What about Donetsk and Crimea?

If Donetsk and Crimea, as part of a free and fair democratic election monitored by the international community, wished to join Russia I would have no complaints.

Of course that is miles away from what has happened in those regions.
Title: Re: more quebec
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 01:05:13 AM
I would also like to add a little detail about Wilson's 14 points - they only affected territories of states that capitulated in a war (or were about to) and were not, therefore, in a sovereign control of their own territory - which, back then, was considered a valid exception to the principle of territorial integrity of a state.
Title: Re: more quebec
Post by: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 01:10:12 AM
ZOMG? You mean there is no such thing as some agreed right for groups of people right to leave whenever they get some percentage of a majority vote?

Does this mean...that Barristers claim that there was such a right was just something he claimed was true "because he said so"???
Title: Re: more quebec
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 01:23:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 01:10:12 AM
ZOMG? You mean there is no such thing as some agreed right for groups of people right to leave whenever they get some percentage of a majority vote?

Does this mean...that Barristers claim that there was such a right was just something he claimed was true "because he said so"???

He is right, from a formalistic perspective, as there indeed is a "right" to leave (as a people, not a territory). But that right is not absolute, as it is subject to the principle of territorial integrity which trumps the right of self-determination (so the nation willing to leave cannot take part of the former state's territory with them, without the former state's agreement).

Given that you have no formal legal training, I would say you are right, as your description of the situation was right in principle (even though it would probably not score the top marks at an international law exam) and BB should recognise that and his failure to do so is a bit intellectually dishonest. :P
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Rex Francorum on September 13, 2014, 01:25:12 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 12, 2014, 02:57:28 PM
Problem is that if you don't actually use a language, you lose it quickly. Taking some classes in school is not enough.


Exactly. Until I go to university, I forgot all the english classes I had at elementary and high schools. I litterally learned english learned by myself.
Title: Re: more quebec
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 01:38:04 AM
Sorry, my previous three posts (and Berkut's response to one of them) were meant to be posted in the Quebec language thread, not here - could a kind mod move them please?  ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 01:40:45 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 13, 2014, 01:01:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 12:50:52 AM
What about Donetsk and Crimea?

If Donetsk and Crimea, as part of a free and fair democratic election monitored by the international community, wished to join Russia I would have no complaints.

Of course that is miles away from what has happened in those regions.

Ok, by mistake I posted my responses in the Scottish independence thread - asked a mod to move here but in the meantime you can read it there.

Essentially, what international law says is that there is indeed a right to self determination, but it is trumped by the principle of territorial integrity - so yes, a nation can choose to leave, but if it wants to take a part of the territory with them, the state which loses the territory has to agree. This I think addresses the biggest misconception most people have about the "right of self determination".
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2014, 02:00:49 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:00:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 12, 2014, 07:22:58 PM
My impression is that most, if not all, anglophone residents of Quebec are bilingual.
88% as of 2011. 80% for 0-19.

Damn I'm good.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: HVC on September 13, 2014, 05:16:32 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:48:50 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 10:43:27 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?
French speakers start english lessons in 1st grade.
English speakers start french lessons in 7th grade.
i started French in public school in grade 1 (90/91) did the policy change in Ontario?

It likely goes without saying, but that's probably overly broad, right?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 13, 2014, 06:03:08 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:38:21 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:34:50 PM
And many Canadians have trouble understanding that Quebec wants to keep its language and culture.

But the way you do that is by getting your future generations invested/interested/dare I say excited about your language and culture. Propping them up by artificial means like laws aren't going to matter much if people are uninterested.

that's not how it works in the real world I'm afraid.

Anglo-Canada smells a lot like Franco-Belgium until -and against heavy oppostion of the francophones there- was reformed so that Dutch was recognised as an equal and official language in Flanders (the result being the surreal situation where the basically monolingual Dutch region of Flanders was officialy bilingual and the monolingual francophone region was unilingual French, dispite a massive amount (up to 25% of population in certain places) of dutch-speaking immigrants. Luckily even that bilingual nonsense was relegated to the dustbin of history after some more decades). But before that the francophone belgian state also had freedom of language.
Which of course meant: freedom for the francophones to not speak and understand dutch and the freedom for neerlandophones to useFrench when dealing with the government or have no contact with the government at all. (leading to situations where parents wanted to register their children in Dutch -as was their right- and the official refusing to register because he didn't want to use Dutch, leading to a court-case where the -francophoen Judge- of course said that the official had that right.

So in the real world it's often necessary to enact laws that contain a larger/stronger -oppressing, even- language in order the safeguard the rights of the speakers smaller/weaker language.

EDIT: "in public" usually means in regards to the government. What one speaks on the street is one's own business.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:20:14 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 12, 2014, 02:52:44 PM
What I found weird is that we learned Parisian French, not the French the speak in quebec.

:lol:
Escutar-te a falar francês "padrão" deve ser hilário, ó H.... Ao julgar pelo português. :D
Anglo Canadian-Azorean-Lisboete-"French" (Canadian and Parisian?) pidgin. Wunderbar!
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: HVC on September 13, 2014, 06:31:25 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:20:14 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 12, 2014, 02:52:44 PM
What I found weird is that we learned Parisian French, not the French the speak in quebec.

:lol:
Escutar-te a falar francês "padrão" deve ser hilário, ó H.... Ao julgar pelo português. :D
Anglo Canadian-Azorean-Lisboete-"French" (Canadian and Parisian?) pidgin. Wunderbar!
Eu ja disse eu nao falo azorean. O meu pai era de lisboa e minha mae de nazare. por isso eu falo mais 60's Lisboete.

Mas sim, o meu acento frances e mal :D

Sorry for my crappy Portuguese writing. I speak better than I write... both in English and French hah.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?

One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.

Depends what you mean familiarity.  I can't hold even a simple conversation in French, though I can identify a few words and very basic grammer.

That's spelling à la HVC or Grey Fox.  :rolleyes: Something uniting Canada, though.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: HVC on September 13, 2014, 06:33:27 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?

One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.

Depends what you mean familiarity.  I can't hold even a simple conversation in French, though I can identify a few words and very basic grammer.

That's spelling à la HVC or Grey Fox.  :rolleyes: Something uniting Canada, though.
why do you hate me so :( I have cousins in france if that helps :lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2014, 06:33:27 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?

One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.

Depends what you mean familiarity.  I can't hold even a simple conversation in French, though I can identify a few words and very basic grammer.

That's spelling à la HVC or Grey Fox.  :rolleyes: Something uniting Canada, though.
why do you hate me so :( I have cousins in france if that helps :lol:

It's more about caring. Nothing worse than indifference.  :hug:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 13, 2014, 06:41:54 AM
I take offense to that, I would never spell it grammer. Maybe typo it but not spell it.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: HVC on September 13, 2014, 06:43:37 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2014, 06:33:27 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?

One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.

Depends what you mean familiarity.  I can't hold even a simple conversation in French, though I can identify a few words and very basic grammer.

That's spelling à la HVC or Grey Fox.  :rolleyes: Something uniting Canada, though.
why do you hate me so :( I have cousins in france if that helps :lol:

It's more about caring. Nothing worse than indifference.  :hug:
I tell you that they use "drivar", "parkar, and "garbish" here and all of a sudden I'm the one that uses it :P. I say guier (or conduzir, but sounds weird to me, so I use it less), estacionar, and lixo.

Also, what's with the continental hate and azoreans? if anything people from the alentejo sound the worst.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:59:39 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2014, 06:43:37 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2014, 06:33:27 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 12, 2014, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?

One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.

Depends what you mean familiarity.  I can't hold even a simple conversation in French, though I can identify a few words and very basic grammer.

That's spelling à la HVC or Grey Fox.  :rolleyes: Something uniting Canada, though.
why do you hate me so :( I have cousins in france if that helps :lol:

It's more about caring. Nothing worse than indifference.  :hug:
I tell you that they use "drivar", "parkar, and "garbish" here and all of a sudden I'm the one that uses it :P. I say guier (or conduzir, but sounds weird to me, so I use it less), estacionar, and lixo.

Also, what's with the continental hate and azoreans? if anything people from the alentejo sound the worst.

Guiar ;) Conduzir weird? No comment...
Come on, it's not like Portuguese spelling is as bad as English or French spelling.
What? Alentejo has the most melodic dialect in South Portugal. Singing and all, if only Brazilians had stuck to it. Since their dialects come from Southern Portuguese.
Brazilians = Québécois of Portuguese, only (much) worse. No crappy spelling reform thanks to them for instance.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 13, 2014, 07:03:21 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 13, 2014, 06:41:54 AM
I take offense to that, I would never spell it grammer. Maybe typo it but not spell it.

What if you meant Frasier?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 07:03:38 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2014, 06:31:25 AM
Eu ja disse eu nao falo azorean. O meu pai era de lisboa e minha mae de nazare. por isso eu falo mais 60's Lisboete.

Mas sim, o meu acento frances e mal :D

Sorry for my crappy Portuguese writing. I speak better than I write... both in English and French hah.

'60s Lisboete? As if that were better...
As for your speaking skills, hopefully yes. :)

Back to Anglo bigotry vs Québec now, where so-called "multiculturalists" are staunchly monoglot and promote unilingualism by holier than thou attacks on Québec's alleged anglophobia.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: HVC on September 13, 2014, 07:05:35 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 13, 2014, 06:59:39 AM
Guiar ;) Conduzir weird? No comment...

cut me a break, I can barely spell in English :D. and conduzir just sounds weird to me. it's like someone saying I'm going for my morning constitutional, instead of saying they're going for a walk.

QuoteCome on, it's not like Portuguese spelling is as bad as English or French spelling.
you still have weird sound rules that are off putting for someone who doesn't write natively.

QuoteWhat? Alentejo has the most melodic dialect in South Portugal. Singing and all, if only Brazilians had stuck to it. Since their dialects come from Southern Portuguese.
Brazilians = Québécois of Portuguese, only (much) worse. No crappy spelling reform thanks to them for instance.

they sound like hillbillies to me :D
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 13, 2014, 07:09:40 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 13, 2014, 07:03:21 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 13, 2014, 06:41:54 AM
I take offense to that, I would never spell it grammer. Maybe typo it but not spell it.

What if you meant Frasier?

Fair point.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Savonarola on September 13, 2014, 07:48:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 10:35:21 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 11:02:20 AM
3.)  If you are French/English Canadian how much English/French did you study?
sufficient knowledge of English as a second language is required for many university faculties.

Why is that?  Are courses taught in English at the Universities?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 08:06:52 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 13, 2014, 06:03:08 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:38:21 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:34:50 PM
And many Canadians have trouble understanding that Quebec wants to keep its language and culture.

But the way you do that is by getting your future generations invested/interested/dare I say excited about your language and culture. Propping them up by artificial means like laws aren't going to matter much if people are uninterested.

that's not how it works in the real world I'm afraid.

Anglo-Canada smells a lot like Franco-Belgium until -and against heavy oppostion of the francophones there- was reformed so that Dutch was recognised as an equal and official language in Flanders (the result being the surreal situation where the basically monolingual Dutch region of Flanders was officialy bilingual and the monolingual francophone region was unilingual French, dispite a massive amount (up to 25% of population in certain places) of dutch-speaking immigrants. Luckily even that bilingual nonsense was relegated to the dustbin of history after some more decades). But before that the francophone belgian state also had freedom of language.
Which of course meant: freedom for the francophones to not speak and understand dutch and the freedom for neerlandophones to useFrench when dealing with the government or have no contact with the government at all. (leading to situations where parents wanted to register their children in Dutch -as was their right- and the official refusing to register because he didn't want to use Dutch, leading to a court-case where the -francophoen Judge- of course said that the official had that right.

So in the real world it's often necessary to enact laws that contain a larger/stronger -oppressing, even- language in order the safeguard the rights of the speakers smaller/weaker language.

EDIT: "in public" usually means in regards to the government. What one speaks on the street is one's own business.

The first bit of your story sounds great, in that the gov't became more flexible and people could communicate with public services in the language they feel appropriate.

The second part of your tale sounds not so good. Forcing people to speak a language for certain aspects of their life is just artificial means to prop up a language and I fail to see how that will win out. Seems like it only delays the day when the majority of the populace declines to speak the protected language - barring some efforts to actually get people enthused about speaking it.  Besides, if the populace doesn't want to speak it - then it seems a waste of resources (and just plain bad gov't) to force them to.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 13, 2014, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 08:06:52 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 13, 2014, 06:03:08 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 11:38:21 PMBut the way you do that is by getting your future generations invested/interested/dare I say excited about your language and culture. Propping them up by artificial means like laws aren't going to matter much if people are uninterested.

that's not how it works in the real world I'm afraid.

Anglo-Canada smells a lot like Franco-Belgium until -and against heavy oppostion of the francophones there- was reformed so that Dutch was recognised as an equal and official language in Flanders (the result being the surreal situation where the basically monolingual Dutch region of Flanders was officialy bilingual and the monolingual francophone region was unilingual French, dispite a massive amount (up to 25% of population in certain places) of dutch-speaking immigrants. Luckily even that bilingual nonsense was relegated to the dustbin of history after some more decades). But before that the francophone belgian state also had freedom of language.
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:34:50 PM
And many Canadians have trouble understanding that Quebec wants to keep its language and culture.


Which of course meant: freedom for the francophones to not speak and understand dutch and the freedom for neerlandophones to useFrench when dealing with the government or have no contact with the government at all. (leading to situations where parents wanted to register their children in Dutch -as was their right- and the official refusing to register because he didn't want to use Dutch, leading to a court-case where the -francophoen Judge- of course said that the official had that right.

So in the real world it's often necessary to enact laws that contain a larger/stronger -oppressing, even- language in order the safeguard the rights of the speakers smaller/weaker language.

EDIT: "in public" usually means in regards to the government. What one speaks on the street is one's own business.

The first bit of your story sounds great, in that the gov't became more flexible and people could communicate with public services in the language they feel appropriate.

The second part of your tale sounds not so good. Forcing people to speak a language for certain aspects of their life is just artificial means to prop up a language and I fail to see how that will win out. Seems like it only delays the day when the majority of the populace declines to speak the protected language - barring some efforts to actually get people enthused about speaking it.  Besides, if the populace doesn't want to speak it - then it seems a waste of resources (and just plain bad gov't) to force them to.

you're still stuck on the being enthused-thing. It has nothing to do with that. It's about power, supremacy and imperialism. The flemish didn't have to be enthused to speak dutch. They were already speaking it, and had been doing so for close to a 1000 years. The issue was that the francophone minority -which had total control over the state- believed (and all too often still believe) that by being francophone they had the right to eradicate anything non-French from the country, comme à la France (just look up how France treated its linguistic minorities since at least Napoleon and until EU-directives put an end to that, more or less).

Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 10:41:54 AM
Again, I agree that it was good that such was changed and they can't force everyone to speak French only. However I don't see why it is good for the "abused" to turn around and become the "abusers".  I can't think of why one country should have different regions where a different language must be spoken for certain public services.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 13, 2014, 10:43:04 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 13, 2014, 07:48:55 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 10:35:21 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 11:02:20 AM
3.)  If you are French/English Canadian how much English/French did you study?
sufficient knowledge of English as a second language is required for many university faculties.

Why is that?  Are courses taught in English at the Universities?

No, well English classes. It's a requirement of the modern world especially technical fields where textbooks are not available in French, especially with the American technical world(ie our dual imperial/metric system)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 10:46:58 AM
We had some courses given in English at uni. Instead of simply embracing the world as it is I sulked in my tent and ranted about independence.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 11:34:05 AM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 13, 2014, 07:48:55 AM
Why is that?  Are courses taught in English at the Universities?
Some faculties do offer that, yes.  In my faculty, anybook beyond the 1st year was in english.  First year was about half&half.  Some classes have french books but english supplemental texts.
Accountants would have more material in French than their finance or economics comrades.  No mandatory classes are offered in english, but optional classes can be taught in english instead of french, and some supplemental courses are only in english.

Futur doctors have most of their material in french, IIRC.  Social sciences is nearly exclusively in french too, and I don't think they have a requirement for knowledge of english.
Law faculty (here, it's simply a bachelor degree, no need to study anthropology for 3 years before applying for law classes) does require sufficient english knowledge, IIRC.

It really depends on the faculties and the various department inside the faculties.  Afaik, finance has always been mostly in english and I don't see it changing.  Teachers told us we had no business there if we didn't understand the language.  I tend to agree as there is not a lot of research made in french for these fields, unlike accounting or medecine.  Toronto is the financial center of the country, New York is not so far either.  If you study finance and want to work in a big company or work as a trader, chances are you'll be working in english, from Montreal or outside the province.  Not much use for finance guys in SMBs, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 13, 2014, 11:37:08 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 10:41:54 AM
Again, I agree that it was good that such was changed and they can't force everyone to speak French only. However I don't see why it is good for the "abused" to turn around and become the "abusers".  I can't think of why one country should have different regions where a different language must be spoken for certain public services.

no one is being abused. In flanders the government is in Dutch, in Wallonia it is in French, in Brussels it is (officially, but the reality is that much of francophones -nearly a century after the deal for Brussels was made - when the city was still neerlandophone in majority even- still don't bother with respecting the law) Dutch-French and the "Oost-Kantons" (the few communities that were received from Germany after WW1 and that succesfully resisted frenchification) it's German. That was the deal struck to solve the issue here and agreed upon by a vast majority of MPs, after the Flemish proposition to make the entire country bilingual was shot down by the francophones.

As for why you can't imagine it? That's a riddle you yourself will have to solve. But it may have to do with a) the US not having had significant conquered minorities (the Flemish being the exception is it's the only majority in the world that wants to dismantle the state it lives in) within its borders that posed a threat to national unity (like the francophones in Anglo-Canada: they were a subjected people) and b) a significant lack of neigbours that might provide help to said minorities in case of conflict.
The New World is in that facet very lucky that it exists out of few countries and/or that most countries were colonised by a small number of colonisers resulting in countries with much the same dominant languages.
Count yourself Lucky but the experience doesn't work for large parts of the world.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 11:52:11 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 01:10:12 AM
i started French in public school in grade 1 (90/91) did the policy change in Ontario?
Hmm, looking at it, it seems to be grade 4 to 8:
Quotestudy FSL from Grades 4 to 8, and
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/amenagement/fls.html (http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/amenagement/fls.html)

So, yes it has changed.  During our exchanges in the 80s, our penpals where only starting to learn french in high school.
Well... Now that I remember, one of the group was in Vermont, duh :P
The other one was from south of Toronto, but IIRC, that was the same, they didn't start until high school.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 11:59:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 12:08:52 AM
But I don't think it is necessary - in that it will prove successful. You are only delaying the inevitable if the populace is not invested in seeing the language/culture thrive.
Wich populace?  Quebec, like many modern society is dependant in immigration.  Immigrants arrive and pick one culture.
If they wish to live in english, there are 9 provinces for that.  If they chose Quebec, they have to know that French is the language here.  Why should we pay for our own assimilations by teaching english to new arrivals?

People of Quebec are attached to their culture, though I would dispute some of what they call culture... but that's my personal taste.  Even though I don't like Xavier Dolan, nor his movies, I think a moderate help from the government is necessary to help him achieve notoriety.  Not many people are interested in seeing movies shot in French with unknown actors in the US, especially when they are made by gays for gays...  So a little help on the marketing side can't hurt.  I would disagree with most of our cultural policies in the specifics, but in the broader sense, I'd say government intervention is unfortunately necessary, due to the size of the market.

It's like protecting an endangered species.  Eventually, conservation measures help the animals re-attain a normal status, and you start the regular hunting again.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:05:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 13, 2014, 12:08:20 AM
The past might inform the present but it doesn't have to dictate the future. ;)
It doesn't.  But it gives a good indication on what will happen if you revert back to the same mistakes.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:13:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 10:41:54 AM
Again, I agree that it was good that such was changed and they can't force everyone to speak French only. However I don't see why it is good for the "abused" to turn around and become the "abusers".  I can't think of why one country should have different regions where a different language must be spoken for certain public services.
Let's say I hate gays.  I think they are bad horrible people.

Suddenly, comes some stupid politicians forcing me to employ gays, if they want to work for me.

Is that discrimination against myself, my company? Is that trempling my individual right to be forced to work side by side with a gay man I don't like because I think he's a bad, horrible person?

What if a bar decides they don't want a gay clientele because it's scares consumers away?  Are we discriminating against this bar?

I think it's a question of balance, wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 12:16:24 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:13:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 10:41:54 AM
Again, I agree that it was good that such was changed and they can't force everyone to speak French only. However I don't see why it is good for the "abused" to turn around and become the "abusers".  I can't think of why one country should have different regions where a different language must be spoken for certain public services.
Let's say I hate gays.  I think they are bad horrible people.

Suddenly, comes some stupid politicians forcing me to employ gays, if they want to work for me.

Is that discrimination against myself, my company? Is that trempling my individual right to be forced to work side by side with a gay man I don't like because I think he's a bad, horrible person?

What if a bar decides they don't want a gay clientele because it's scares consumers away?  Are we discriminating against this bar?

I think it's a question of balance, wouldn't you agree?

I think making that analogy only serves to condemn you.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 13, 2014, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:13:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 10:41:54 AM
Again, I agree that it was good that such was changed and they can't force everyone to speak French only. However I don't see why it is good for the "abused" to turn around and become the "abusers".  I can't think of why one country should have different regions where a different language must be spoken for certain public services.
Let's say I hate gays.  I think they are bad horrible people.

Suddenly, comes some stupid politicians forcing me to employ gays, if they want to work for me.

Is that discrimination against myself, my company? Is that trempling my individual right to be forced to work side by side with a gay man I don't like because I think he's a bad, horrible person?

What if a bar decides they don't want a gay clientele because it's scares consumers away?  Are we discriminating against this bar?

I think it's a question of balance, wouldn't you agree?

rather bizarre analogy since one can learn a language but not pick his sexuality
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 12:26:36 PM
I don't think gays are bad horrible people.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Razgovory on September 13, 2014, 12:42:12 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 12:13:45 PM

Let's say I hate gays.  I think they are bad horrible people.

Suddenly, comes some stupid politicians forcing me to employ gays, if they want to work for me.

Is that discrimination against myself, my company? Is that trempling my individual right to be forced to work side by side with a gay man I don't like because I think he's a bad, horrible person?

What if a bar decides they don't want a gay clientele because it's scares consumers away?  Are we discriminating against this bar?

I think it's a question of balance, wouldn't you agree?

In the US it depends on the state (sadly), but generally speaking you can't discriminate against people in hiring or service.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 13, 2014, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 12:26:36 PM
I don't think gays are bad horrible people.

You think they're good at being horrible?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 01:15:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 13, 2014, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 12:26:36 PM
I don't think gays are bad horrible people.

You think they're good at being horrible?

Meh. They're OK.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 01:25:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 01:15:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 13, 2014, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 12:26:36 PM
I don't think gays are bad horrible people.

You think they're good at being horrible?

Meh. They're OK.

We think you stink. :blurgh:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 01:29:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 01:25:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 01:15:22 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 13, 2014, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 12:26:36 PM
I don't think gays are bad horrible people.

You think they're good at being horrible?

Meh. They're OK.

We think you stink. :blurgh:

Yeah you people just can't get enough of my manstink.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 01:34:15 PM
As if.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Sheilbh on September 13, 2014, 01:40:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 12, 2014, 11:12:54 AM
In the parts of English speaking of Canada I've been in, you usually take mandatory French starting at some point in elementary school. It goes on into part of high school, at which point it becomes optional (usually you're required one or two years in high school).
Interestingly that seems less French than was the system  being introduced in Scotland when I lived there. There you started as soon as you started primary school and wouldn't be allowed to quit until you were 16.

Unfortunately most of the teachers weren't fluent (except in high schools) so they were normally only a lesson ahead of their classes and I don't think it was terrible successful. Though it may have got better and I think it's been extended to other languages like Gaelic and Spanish.

Interestingly French has always been the dominant foreign language you learn in Scotland, in England it's the 'easier' German. The Auld Alliance indeed :lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 12:26:36 PM
I don't think gays are bad horrible people.

How many gays have you met?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 03:57:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2014, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2014, 12:26:36 PM
I don't think gays are bad horrible people.

How many gays have you met?

In the Biblical sense?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 06:26:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 12:16:24 PM
I think making that analogy only serves to condemn you.
What if I'm an english speaker and I don't want to hear french spoken in my shop?  How is that intolerant that there'd be laws affirming the right of someone to speak french if he wants to?  Sounds to me like you want french speakers to simply surrender without a fight.  You've already decided it's a lost cause and you want us to surrender our future as a nation.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 06:29:07 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 13, 2014, 12:21:25 PM
rather bizarre analogy since one can learn a language but not pick his sexuality
If a language can simply be learnt, then there is no problem for the anglo-community of Quebec...
I think it goes a little deeper than that.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 06:30:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2014, 12:42:12 PM
In the US it depends on the state (sadly), but generally speaking you can't discriminate against people in hiring or service.
But that would be an infringement on that person's individual rights to hire whom he/she wants.
Which brings us to the limits on individual rights...

It seems it is ok to infring on one's individual rights to prevent un undesired side effect.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 13, 2014, 07:00:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 06:26:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 12:16:24 PM
I think making that analogy only serves to condemn you.
What if I'm an english speaker and I don't want to hear french spoken in my shop?  How is that intolerant that there'd be laws affirming the right of someone to speak french if he wants to?  Sounds to me like you want french speakers to simply surrender without a fight.  You've already decided it's a lost cause and you want us to surrender our future as a nation.

If you are an English speaker and don't want to hear French in your shop then you are pretty bigoted.

Also, why do you love strawmen so much? I've already said in this thread that I think it is good to have laws that allow people to converse in whatever language they choose. But that's not really what Quebec's language laws are about, now is it?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 13, 2014, 07:19:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 07:00:17 PM
If you are an English speaker and don't want to hear French in your shop then you are pretty bigoted.

Unless they're glancing at you while they're talking, and occasionally laughing.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2014, 07:20:56 PM
As long as they're talking they're not miming, which is a blessing.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 14, 2014, 11:02:31 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 06:29:07 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on September 13, 2014, 12:21:25 PM
rather bizarre analogy since one can learn a language but not pick his sexuality
If a language can simply be learnt, then there is no problem for the anglo-community of Quebec...
I think it goes a little deeper than that.
we have the same problem with francophones here, as you well know.
One has to be willing, but when one is then language can be learnt. No one is even asking for perfection or even fluency. Making a sincere effort will generally do the trick
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 14, 2014, 11:29:04 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:06:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:48:50 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 10:43:27 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?
French speakers start english lessons in 1st grade.
English speakers start french lessons in 7th grade.

It likely goes without saying, but that's probably overly broad, right?
I think it's 1hr a week in 1st to 3rd grade.  It then increases gradually in 4th, 5th grade and then half a year in english for 6th grade, for all classes.
Can't be sure about the exact numbers, don't trust me on this.  Tried to find it, found a lenghy document filled with educational mumbo jumbo that doesn't make any sense, can't find the total hours per week dedicated to english, decided to forget about it.

As for the english, this is valid for Ontario and New Brunswick. Don't think it's radically different in other provinces.

My son is currently having French, and he is in grade 4.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: HVC on September 14, 2014, 12:07:40 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 14, 2014, 11:29:04 AM

My son is currently having French, and he is in grade 4.
He's in grade 4 already? Jesus. Time flies.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 14, 2014, 02:09:36 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 06:26:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 12:16:24 PM
I think making that analogy only serves to condemn you.
What if I'm an english speaker and I don't want to hear french spoken in my shop?  How is that intolerant that there'd be laws affirming the right of someone to speak french if he wants to?  Sounds to me like you want french speakers to simply surrender without a fight.  You've already decided it's a lost cause and you want us to surrender our future as a nation.

Since your examples are so outlandish, I am still not sure which side you are on. In that example, are you arguing that you should have a right to ban French speakers from your shop? Or that you shouldn't be able to do that?

For the record, I think you shouldn't be able to do it. If you run a shop open to the public (and not a closed club), you shouldn't be able to ban customers on arbitrary pretences, whether they are black, male, gay or speak French.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 14, 2014, 02:14:23 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 13, 2014, 06:30:25 PM
But that would be an infringement on that person's individual rights to hire whom he/she wants.

Unless you hold extremely libertarian/right wing views, I think in the modern Western world it is a pretty accepted principle that you cannot freely discriminate in hiring based on arbitrary qualities that are not related to the ability to perform the job.  :huh:

QuoteIt seems it is ok to infring on one's individual rights to prevent un undesired side effect.

Not really, at least not in principle. It is a balancing exercise. You have to establish that the side effect is indeed undesirable in the first place, objectively speaking (and, in particular, the measure is not founded in an animus), that there is no alternative (less onerous) way of preventing that effect from occurring, and that the limitation of individual rights is proportional to the good being protected. Only then what you say is true.

I don't think a measure to prevent people from speaking a foreign language in public (even if you exempt the obvious idiocy of e.g. requiring foreigners / tourists to speak the local language) passes that test.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 14, 2014, 08:01:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2014, 02:14:23 PM
Unless you hold extremely libertarian/right wing views, I think in the modern Western world it is a pretty accepted principle that you cannot freely discriminate in hiring based on arbitrary qualities that are not related to the ability to perform the job.  :huh:
So how is it discrimination than to protect french speakers?


QuoteNot really, at least not in principle. It is a balancing exercise. You have to establish that the side effect is indeed undesirable in the first place, objectively speaking (and, in particular, the measure is not founded in an animus), that there is no alternative (less onerous) way of preventing that effect from occurring, and that the limitation of individual rights is proportional to the good being protected. Only then what you say is true.
And the side effect of not offering public education in english for immigrants would be...? 

Quote
I don't think a measure to prevent people from speaking a foreign language in public (even if you exempt the obvious idiocy of e.g. requiring foreigners / tourists to speak the local language) passes that test.
Again, you take Grallon's meaning way too literally.

It's not about regulating what you speak in a shopping centre, it's about regulating the work place: offering a french or bilingual working place, not an exclusively english working place.
It's about the language of education, with exceptions.  On that, I think we are close to "ok".  As I said, I would forgo the whole commonwealth thing for US and Canada.  A child that began its education in english for a few years has the right to continue in english, so long as he studied in Canada or the US.  Don't much care for Nigeria and India, if that makes me racist, so be it.
It's about the general portrait of the city: no "Cattelli's noodle" sign to deface old Quebec city.  No advertising in english only as it used to be in the 50s.  No "speak white or get lost" when you enter a store.

Rights of the minority have to be protected, and that will always offend the intolerent ones.  Gay rights offend the bigots, that's a given.  As you said, it's a measure of balance: the right for gay guy or girl to work is greater than the religious conviction of someone who think they are all evil.

Same with language: the right for anglo speakers to establish for supremacy or the right for the francos to live their lives as they fit.  Doesn't matter if French is a doomed language, it's our right.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 14, 2014, 08:12:55 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2014, 07:00:17 PM
Also, why do you love strawmen so much?
Because it was the reality before the language laws forced people to change their minds?  :huh:

Quote
I've already said in this thread that I think it is good to have laws that allow people to converse in whatever language they choose. But that's not really what Quebec's language laws are about, now is it?
Quebec's language laws are about reaffirming the French language supremacy to avoid going back to the time, pre-laws, where everything was done in English whenever you needed interaction beyond your village.

Prior to this, english knowledge was required for something as simple as working in a clothes store.  It was required to read the Sears' catalogue because orders were only available in english.

Without any language laws, we would slowly revert back to this time period. Just as if we removed discrimination laws against sexual orientation and race, we would slowly revert back to the 19th century.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 14, 2014, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 14, 2014, 11:29:04 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 11:06:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 12, 2014, 10:48:50 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 12, 2014, 10:43:27 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on September 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM
So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?
French speakers start english lessons in 1st grade.
English speakers start french lessons in 7th grade.

It likely goes without saying, but that's probably overly broad, right?
I think it's 1hr a week in 1st to 3rd grade.  It then increases gradually in 4th, 5th grade and then half a year in english for 6th grade, for all classes.
Can't be sure about the exact numbers, don't trust me on this.  Tried to find it, found a lenghy document filled with educational mumbo jumbo that doesn't make any sense, can't find the total hours per week dedicated to english, decided to forget about it.

As for the english, this is valid for Ontario and New Brunswick. Don't think it's radically different in other provinces.

My son is currently having French, and he is in grade 4.
well, then things have changed.
glad to hear it :)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 15, 2014, 01:02:09 AM
Sorry, viper, I have to respond to your post one by one, as it is all over the place
Quote from: viper37 on September 14, 2014, 08:12:55 PMIt's not about regulating what you speak in a shopping centre, it's about regulating the work place: offering a french or bilingual working place, not an exclusively english working place.

But what does it mean? Requiring people to only speak one language (also, assuming, in private conversations) at a work place is something quite different (and wrong) than requiring a non-domestic language capability in a work place. For example, I work for an international law firm and while we do speak Polish to each other in the Warsaw office (and, obviously, when meeting Polish clients) we do have to speak English to serve foreign clients (and this means that, in practice, most of my work, especially in writing, is done in English). Sure, you could argue whether a requirement like that would be proportional in a store, but I suppose if a large part of your clientele did not speak Polish, I see it justified. Again, I am not sure what you are arguing - are you saying that a shop in Quebec should not be able to require English capability from its employees?

QuoteIt's about the language of education, with exceptions.  On that, I think we are close to "ok".  As I said, I would forgo the whole commonwealth thing for US and Canada.  A child that began its education in english for a few years has the right to continue in english, so long as he studied in Canada or the US.  Don't much care for Nigeria and India, if that makes me racist, so be it.

Not sure if it is racist, just dumb.  :huh:

QuoteIt's about the general portrait of the city: no "Cattelli's noodle" sign to deface old Quebec city.  No advertising in english only as it used to be in the 50s.

I don't see a problem with foreign language signs on private stores. In Poland, the word "sale" has become quite common to display (without the Polish more mouthful of an equivalent "wyprzedaz") and noone (well, perhaps, with the exception of a few nationalist linguists) has a problem with that. Especially when you are running a store where your clientele is either bilingual (like many modern Poles) or does not speak Polish but speaks English (like most tourists), it just seems more efficient.

Haven't seen Polish TV advertising done in a foreign language only but wouldn't have a problem with that. Obviously, at least those Poles who subscribe to cable already get most TV in a foreign language. And, of course, online, it is pretty common to have foreign language advertising.

QuoteNo "speak white or get lost" when you enter a store.

Here I agree. Don't like racism and bigotry.

QuoteRights of the minority have to be protected, and that will always offend the intolerent ones.  Gay rights offend the bigots, that's a given.  As you said, it's a measure of balance: the right for gay guy or girl to work is greater than the religious conviction of someone who think they are all evil.

Same with language: the right for anglo speakers to establish for supremacy or the right for the francos to live their lives as they fit.  Doesn't matter if French is a doomed language, it's our right.

Ok, but again, these examples are completely different (with the possible exception of the "speak white or get out"). If I see an ad on TV that features a heterosexual family or shows, e.g., a heterosexual male, I may end up thinking that the ad is obviously not targeted at me (and, if the company at the same time makes a statement, like the pasta guy some time ago, that they will never show a gay couple in one of their ads, I may consider taking my business elsewhere and boycotting them) but I don't think it would be appropriate to require every company to make two ads, one with heteros and one for gays.  :huh:

QuotePrior to this, english knowledge was required for something as simple as working in a clothes store.  It was required to read the Sears' catalogue because orders were only available in english.

See above my comment about the work place. I have friends who work for international/European manufacturing or sales companies (Syt is in a similar position, and several other Languish people, I think, so can confirm) and they do all the shipping, sales, distribution etc. stuff in English, because it is the "lingua franca" of Europe. When I talk to my French, German or Swedish clients, I do so in English, etc. Again, this seems like an objective criteria to me - Sears in an American company so it is natural that internal communication would be done in English (and, to be honest, based from what I have seen from my clients, multinationals based in France, Germany or Spain also, in most cases, use English for internal communication).

And for the record, while knowledge of Polish would probably help an expat living in Warsaw, if there was a choice, going for English rather than Polish would give him or her better employment opportunities. Does it suck that Polish is not a universal language of international commerce? Perhaps (but this means an English speaking Pole knows on average one more language than a Brit). But it would be mindboggling to me to try and legislate that away somehow.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 15, 2014, 01:08:32 AM
Holy shit Carl is in Grade 4?  Damn.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 02:06:31 AM
The key difference Marty, the very key that in your ignorance you are missing, because Poles have not experienced it, is this:

Poland does not have the history of strangulation and oppressive subjugation by foreign powers that Quebec has had, so you just don't understand their need to protect their precious fluids from the enslaving Canucks.

If you lived in a nation that has experienced true foreign oppression in its history like Quebec, you would understand.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Razgovory on September 15, 2014, 02:09:30 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 15, 2014, 02:40:27 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 07:50:25 AM
You know the reason Vipr seems to have so much trouble justifying this might be why that thing never polls above ~36% nowadays & never polled over ~70%.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: grumbler on September 15, 2014, 08:32:42 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 07:50:25 AM
You know the reason Vipr seems to have so much trouble justifying this might be why that thing never polls above ~36% nowadays & never polled over ~70%.

I think that you are right.  It is hard trying to intellectualize an emotional response.

I don't have a problem with Quebec insisting that French gets a level playing field.  It's the idea that English advertising (e.g.) is somehow evil that jumps the shark.  I have lived in neighborhoods where a substantial portion of the advertising was in Spanish, and I wasn't even tempted to forget how to speak English.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 15, 2014, 08:36:31 AM
 :lol: @ Berkut
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 15, 2014, 08:36:58 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2014, 01:08:32 AM
Holy shit Carl is in Grade 4?  Damn.

They grow fast.  :(
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on September 15, 2014, 08:32:42 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 07:50:25 AM
You know the reason Vipr seems to have so much trouble justifying this might be why that thing never polls above ~36% nowadays & never polled over ~70%.

I think that you are right.  It is hard trying to intellectualize an emotional response.

I don't have a problem with Quebec insisting that French gets a level playing field.  It's the idea that English advertising (e.g.) is somehow evil that jumps the shark.  I have lived in neighborhoods where a substantial portion of the advertising was in Spanish, and I wasn't even tempted to forget how to speak English.

It's all historical & pseudo-historical.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 09:50:25 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: grumbler on September 15, 2014, 08:32:42 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 07:50:25 AM
You know the reason Vipr seems to have so much trouble justifying this might be why that thing never polls above ~36% nowadays & never polled over ~70%.

I think that you are right.  It is hard trying to intellectualize an emotional response.

I don't have a problem with Quebec insisting that French gets a level playing field.  It's the idea that English advertising (e.g.) is somehow evil that jumps the shark.  I have lived in neighborhoods where a substantial portion of the advertising was in Spanish, and I wasn't even tempted to forget how to speak English.

It's all historical & pseudo-historical.

Indeed. Which is why I find the entire thing kind of amusing. The idea that people living in Canada are oppressed is just...funny. I mean...it is fucking Canada. Is there a less oppressive nation in the history of mankind than Canada?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 09:51:58 AM
Hey!

We can kill Indians as well as any American.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 15, 2014, 10:00:54 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 09:51:58 AM
Hey!

We can kill Indians as well as any American.

Welcome! You have reached the NSA watch list. Your post is important to us, so please remain at your computer and someone will be with you shortly.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 10:02:23 AM
Quote from: The Brain on September 15, 2014, 10:00:54 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 15, 2014, 09:51:58 AM
Hey!

We can kill Indians as well as any American.

Welcome! You have reached the NSA watch list. Your post is important to us, so please remain at your computer and someone will be with you shortly.

I am a Canadian, it's called the CCSA.

also, you are a nuclear industry worker. If there is a list, you are on it.

Bomb. President.

See there, now we're on a list.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 15, 2014, 02:37:01 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 15, 2014, 08:36:58 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2014, 01:08:32 AM
Holy shit Carl is in Grade 4?  Damn.

They grow fast.  :(

Don't tell grallon.  :secret:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Syt on September 15, 2014, 02:43:33 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 02:06:31 AM
The key difference Marty, the very key that in your ignorance you are missing, because Poles have not experienced it, is this:

Poland does not have the history of strangulation and oppressive subjugation by foreign powers that Quebec has had, so you just don't understand their need to protect their precious fluids from the enslaving Canucks.

If you lived in a nation that has experienced true foreign oppression in its history like Quebec, you would understand.

POTM!
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on September 15, 2014, 03:32:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 02:06:31 AM
The key difference Marty, the very key that in your ignorance you are missing, because Poles have not experienced it, is this:

Poland does not have the history of strangulation and oppressive subjugation by foreign powers that Quebec has had, so you just don't understand their need to protect their precious fluids from the enslaving Canucks.

If you lived in a nation that has experienced true foreign oppression in its history like Quebec, you would understand.

Strong work :cheers:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:04:25 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 15, 2014, 01:02:09 AM
For example, I work for an international law firm and while we do speak Polish to each other in the Warsaw office (and, obviously, when meeting Polish clients) we do have to speak English to serve foreign clients (and this means that, in practice, most of my work, especially in writing, is done in English).
If your boss told you that from now on, everyone speaks English and Polish is forbidden, you would submit and smile?
I wouldn't, for sure.

Quote
Sure, you could argue whether a requirement like that would be proportional in a store, but I suppose if a large part of your clientele did not speak Polish, I see it justified. Again, I am not sure what you are arguing - are you saying that a shop in Quebec should not be able to require English capability from its employees?
It should not be able for force english at work.  Having english necessary to communicate with clients, suppliers or another branch is a totally different matter than having the entire work environment in another language, especially when it's necessity is not really demonstrated.

I always require bilinguism of my office employees, but that's a totally different thing than forcing them to work in english.


Quote
Not sure if it is racist, just dumb.  :huh:
Does Poland finance public education in Russian and Ukrainian?

Quote
I don't see a problem with foreign language signs on private stores.
I see a problem with it just as I see a problem with a topless women on an advertising near an elementary school.
It is improper and it destroys a particular cachet, that is all.

Being French is a distinctive advantage in North America, it we look all the same as Ottawa or Toronto, there's really no reason for tourists to visit.

Quote
In Poland, the word "sale" has become quite common to display (without the Polish more mouthful of an equivalent "wyprzedaz") and noone (well, perhaps, with the exception of a few nationalist linguists) has a problem with that. Especially when you are running a store where your clientele is either bilingual (like many modern Poles) or does not speak Polish but speaks English (like most tourists), it just seems more efficient.
English isn't really a threat to Poland.  What is the probability that a part of your country will be solely english speaking within 2-3 generations?   

QuoteObviously, at least those Poles who subscribe to cable already get most TV in a foreign language. And, of course, online, it is pretty common to have foreign language advertising.
totally not the same.


Quote
Ok, but again, these examples are completely different (with the possible exception of the "speak white or get out"). If I see an ad on TV that features a heterosexual family or shows, e.g., a heterosexual male, I may end up thinking that the ad is obviously not targeted at me (and, if the company at the same time makes a statement, like the pasta guy some time ago, that they will never show a gay couple in one of their ads, I may consider taking my business elsewhere and boycotting them) but I don't think it would be appropriate to require every company to make two ads, one with heteros and one for gays.  :huh:
That's not really the same, again.
And taking "your business elsewhere" wasn't really an option when these laws voted.  Even later, even today, you just won't see English Canada letting a Quebec based company take over their big corporations.  Canadian Pacific and the Toronto Stock Exchange are good examples of that.  With a little help from the Feds, they were able to successfully resist these take overs.  Nowadays, both corporations are owned by foreigners instead of Canadians, but at least, they don't speak french.

So, major corporations are based in Ontario, Toronto area.  Not the most french friendly place in the country.
Can't exactly retaliate against the Canadians the same way, the Feds will be all over us in a minute.

So what's left?  The ugly reality of having a government forced to define basic rights.  It's stupid, be we are there.  And with the help of these laws, and the development of a financial sector based in Quebec, we were able to create our own "Quebec inc".

As it is now, it's still easier for a Quebec based corporations to expand in the US than in Canada.

QuoteSears in an American company so it is natural that internal communication would be done in English (and, to be honest, based from what I have seen from my clients, multinationals based in France, Germany or Spain also, in most cases, use English for internal communication).
Check past employment offers from Paradox.  Knowledge of Swedish is required.  Not because they are totally closed to the outside world, but just because that is their work environment.  They are a sovereign nation, they can do whatever they want.

Quote
And for the record, while knowledge of Polish would probably help an expat living in Warsaw, if there was a choice, going for English rather than Polish would give him or her better employment opportunities. Does it suck that Polish is not a universal language of international commerce? Perhaps (but this means an English speaking Pole knows on average one more language than a Brit). But it would be mindboggling to me to try and legislate that away somehow.
Your country, your choice.  My country, my choice.
Polish is not endangered by English, for now.  It's not even surrounded by english speaking country.
If Russia swallows Ukraine and a Russian speaking minority starts appearing in Poland, I remain unconvinced that Poland would accomodate them by translating everything and subsidizing russians schools.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 02:06:31 AM
If you lived in a nation that has experienced true foreign oppression in its history like Quebec, you would understand.
Yes, yes, the British Empire has always been a benevolent force in history, never raising its sword against a defenless nation, always acting in the preservation of good, social order, always defending the widow and the orphan :)
I still wonder why Americans chose to leave such a beautiful empire and wage such a bloody war.   They must have been stupid, or something.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:14:50 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 15, 2014, 08:32:42 AM
I don't have a problem with Quebec insisting that French gets a level playing field.  It's the idea that English advertising (e.g.) is somehow evil that jumps the shark.  I have lived in neighborhoods where a substantial portion of the advertising was in Spanish, and I wasn't even tempted to forget how to speak English.
80% of Americans have English has their mother tongue.  95% claim to speak English very well.

Tell you what.  When Canada reaches a point where 95% of its population speak French very well, I'll be the first to support repelling our language laws.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:16:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 09:50:25 AM
Indeed. Which is why I find the entire thing kind of amusing. The idea that people living in Canada are oppressed is just...funny. I mean...it is fucking Canada. Is there a less oppressive nation in the history of mankind than Canada?
Well, the USA is the land of the free, apparently, and you fought against the English monarch's tyranny, wich is still our sovereign...
So, I guess that I live in a non free country...
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 15, 2014, 09:59:53 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 02:06:31 AM
If you lived in a nation that has experienced true foreign oppression in its history like Quebec, you would understand.
Yes, yes, the British Empire has always been a benevolent force in history, never raising its sword against a defenless nation, always acting in the preservation of good, social order, always defending the widow and the orphan :)
I still wonder why Americans chose to leave such a beautiful empire and wage such a bloody war.   They must have been stupid, or something.

Because we were British.  British people are stubborn prideful people who demand certain rights and privileges.  The British government didn't like that so off we went.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 15, 2014, 10:01:04 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:16:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 09:50:25 AM
Indeed. Which is why I find the entire thing kind of amusing. The idea that people living in Canada are oppressed is just...funny. I mean...it is fucking Canada. Is there a less oppressive nation in the history of mankind than Canada?
Well, the USA is the land of the free, apparently, and you fought against the English monarch's tyranny, wich is still our sovereign...
So, I guess that I live in a non free country...

The British Monarchy actually had very little to do with the Revolution but for constitutional reasons that was who we held responsible.  To blame Parliament for what Parliament was doing would be to admit they had some authority over us.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 15, 2014, 10:03:40 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:14:50 PM
Tell you what.  When Canada reaches a point where 95% of its population speak French very well, I'll be the first to support repelling our language laws.

Did you mean Quebec there? :unsure:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 15, 2014, 10:05:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2014, 10:01:04 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:16:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 09:50:25 AM
Indeed. Which is why I find the entire thing kind of amusing. The idea that people living in Canada are oppressed is just...funny. I mean...it is fucking Canada. Is there a less oppressive nation in the history of mankind than Canada?
Well, the USA is the land of the free, apparently, and you fought against the English monarch's tyranny, wich is still our sovereign...
So, I guess that I live in a non free country...

The British Monarchy actually had very little to do with the Revolution but for constitutional reasons that was who we held responsible.  To blame Parliament for what Parliament was doing would be to admit they had some authority over us.

At any rate, what does all of this have to do with the tyrant of all tyrants, Elizabeth II?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 15, 2014, 10:20:47 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2014, 10:05:57 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2014, 10:01:04 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:16:20 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 09:50:25 AM
Indeed. Which is why I find the entire thing kind of amusing. The idea that people living in Canada are oppressed is just...funny. I mean...it is fucking Canada. Is there a less oppressive nation in the history of mankind than Canada?
Well, the USA is the land of the free, apparently, and you fought against the English monarch's tyranny, wich is still our sovereign...
So, I guess that I live in a non free country...

The British Monarchy actually had very little to do with the Revolution but for constitutional reasons that was who we held responsible.  To blame Parliament for what Parliament was doing would be to admit they had some authority over us.

At any rate, what does all of this have to do with the tyrant of all tyrants, Elizabeth II?

Don't let her public demeanour fool you.

As an Agent for the Crown, I can tell you she's one harsh mistress.   :ph34r:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 10:34:05 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 02:06:31 AM
If you lived in a nation that has experienced true foreign oppression in its history like Quebec, you would understand.
Yes, yes, the British Empire has always been a benevolent force in history, never raising its sword against a defenless nation, always acting in the preservation of good, social order, always defending the widow and the orphan :)
I still wonder why Americans chose to leave such a beautiful empire and wage such a bloody war.   They must have been stupid, or something.

I know, this is what I've been trying to tell Marty. He lives in a nation that has never experienced the lash of English oppression, so he just cannot understand your historical pain.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 11:04:05 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 10:34:05 PM
I know, this is what I've been trying to tell Marty. He lives in a nation that has never experienced the lash of English oppression, so he just cannot understand your historical pain.
coming from someone you constantly bitched when another language than english was used on a forum, that is extremely funny :)

Maybe you should try reading a book, or something, about Canadian politics and history.  It would certainly help if you knew what you were talking about.

It seems to me that, from your point of view, english canada's discrimination against french speakers, wether overt in the past, via laws, or present, with various means of sidestepping the courts judgement is perfectly acceptable.  But the french speakers restricting access to english education for immigrant is simply... naziesque. :)

Ah, the great Berkut of old :)  With a sense of moderation without parallels :)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 15, 2014, 11:06:11 PM
I still never understand how you support discriminatory policies in the present in support of French by noting historical backwards discrimination in the past. "Well they were bigots back then so we get to be bigots now!"
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 11:10:14 PM
:yawn:

From my point of view, modern people like yourself crying because their language isn't special enough to everyone is just comical and silly. The idea that Canada is opressing you is just hilarious.

You can keep on trying to make this about me, with references to things you've made up that you claim happened, what, a decade ago? but it just makes you look that much more desperate and out of touch. It's not like I have a dog in this race - my opinion is completely motivated by you and grallons arguments - you've made me go from completely ambivalent to adamantly opposed to your position.

The best part is just how incapable you are of seeing how silly the entire thing is to nearly everyone else. You are lecturing a Pole about oppression and cultural domination by outsiders? Do you have even an inkling of how ridiculous that is?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 12:21:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 15, 2014, 11:06:11 PM
I still never understand how you support discriminatory policies in the present in support of French by noting historical backwards discrimination in the past. "Well they were bigots back then so we get to be bigots now!"
It's not just historical.  Most french schools outside of Quebec are attached to an English school board and get inadequate funding.
Use Google translate for this one:
Link (http://ici.radio-canada.ca/sujet/education-fr-ouest/2013/12/06/001-proces-csf-fpfcb-texte-dossier-simple.shtml)
I've talked about it in the Canadian politics thread.
The core issue is the quality of French education in British Columbia.  To bully the group into submission, the BC government has asked that all documents be translated in english, basing its argument on a 1731 law making English the official language of the province for trials.  The Supreme Court has judged it still applies.  Despite apparent contradictions with Federal laws.

If Quebec tried a stunt like that with its English community, the Federal parliament would get medieval on our collective asses.

This being an example among many.  In Alberta and Manitoba, despite a sizable franco minority still trying to survive, the Supreme Court has refused to force them to translate laws and reaffirm the precedence of english in laws.  If a law or rule is badly translated, english version prevails.

Again, I can't imagine what the reaction would be if Quebec tried that.  Simply stating the French is the official language of the province got us a lot of flack.  Can't imagine actually depriving Anglo-Québécois of their real rights.

About the rights Berkut insist I am inventing (http://www.officiallanguages.gc.ca/en/language_rights/act)

http://www.officiallanguages.gc.ca/en/publications/annual_reports/2012-2013 (//http://)Annual report of the Commissionner of official languages[/Url]
Wich will be quickly dismissed by many of our canadian friends as the rantings of a bureaucrat.

About the french bashing in Canadian medias:
Quote
Graham Fraser, an English Canadian journalist noted for his sympathy for Quebec, has tempered both sides. "This phenomenon (of English Canadian Francophobia) exists, I do not doubt it; I have read enough of Alberta Report to know that there are people that think bilingualism is a conspiracy against English Canadians to guarantee jobs for Quebecers — who are all bilingual, anyway.", he wrote. "I have heard enough call-in radio shows to know that these sentiments of fear and rage are not confined to the Canadian west. But I do not think these anti-francophone prejudices dominate the Canadian culture."[115] Fraser, in fact, was himself named as Canada's new Official Languages Commissioner in September 2006.

And the Wikipedia article:
Anti Quebec sentiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment)

I can't do anything to stop English Canadians and some Americans of constantly whining about Quebec while totally ignoring/disregarding the facts in front of them, but I'd like to make sure this doesn't happen again in Quebec.

Given the total lack of effectriveness from the Federal government to prevent abuse of the French communities outside Quebec while rushing to the aide of Anglo-Québécois as soon as a government bureaucrat salutes them in *grasp* French (the horror), this is why I think, culturally, decentralization is better. 

English Canadian provinces will still be free to discriminate as they please against French Canadians and pretend bilinguism is the worst of all evils that can be imposed on men.  Meanwhile, Quebec will be free to promote the use of French, entirely select its immigrants&refugees.

Even without considering culture, it's much better to have has few levels of decision possible and have them closer to the situation.  Even the provincial government should be more decentralized towards MRCs, but I don't see that happening until we get more autonomy from the Feds.

Take the whole indian questions for example.  We can negotiate all we want, but all we can give them is a share of the natural resources extracted on their claimed ancestral territory.  Everything else depends on the Federal government wich adopts a one size fits all policy.  Assimilation has not worked very well, it simply made them even more dependant on Federal government aid, while at the same time destroying their identity and create a lot of the problems we see today.  Then you get a silly situation like the Hurons of Wendake, square in the middle of Quebec city now, wich rely on the Federal government for everything while the provincial center is just beside them and of easier access.

Environment, I've already dealt with that.

Criminal code.  Take the infamous and inefficient gun registry.  It's something the western part of the country opposed dearly, while the eastern part approved.  Had all provinces had their own criminal code (similar to US States, where each States has its own code plus the Federal laws) or a veto right, than either the provinces willing to adop their own registry and cooperate for exchange of info, or, the Feds create their registry and the provinces unwilling to have such an
innefficient and overly broad tool opt out of the program and get financial compensation.

Telecommunications is now solely under federal hands, because the Constitution has a provision that anything not explicitely listed as belonging to the provinces will be left to the Federal parliament to decide.  I'll die of old age before I see the House of Commons deleguating powers willingly and entirely to the provinces.  A Quebec's equivalent of the FTC would not be so pricky about the use of the word 'fuck' in a French radio station, because it's not really considered swearing like in the english part of the country, and besides, we are much less puritan than others.

Gay marriage.  Marriage is solely for the Feds.  Provinces like Quebec had to circumvent it by inventing "civil unions" wich was totally silly.  It took them their sweet time, but eventually they got there, giving gays the same rights.  Still, lots of bitching coming from some part of Alberta.  Just like abortion, a debate many MPs of the Fed gov will try to bring back to the forescene, any way they can.   If this was left to the provinces, 8-9 out of 10 would grant abortion and gay marriage and there would never be the fear that, by a freak accident, the Federal government is again able to pass laws based on some religious morale rather than scientific facts and common sense.

Something like the Federal policy of subsidizing the tar sand production could be better handled by the provinces themselves if they perceived a bigger share of their taxes.  Alberta could subsidize oil, Ontario could subsidize the auto industry and Quebec could subsidize bad singers and gay movie producers, I guess.
Doesn't matter if I approve of the policies or not myself, I still think it's something better left to the provinces themselves, rather than forcing everyone in the country to chime in and pay for each other national industry.

Maybe that way, some provinces wouldn't be as poor, receive less/pay less equalization payment, without sacrificing our quality of life.


But many Canadians seem to have an insane fear that decentralization = destruction and then America will pick up the pieces. I guess it's been going on since 1867.  The "lessons of the US civil war" were a great incentive for a centralized state, at the time.  A semi compromise was reached, wich gave us this mess, and didn't prevent provinces from restricting access to French education or declaring themselves unilingual english.  So fuck it for the protection of the Feds, it has done us no good so far.  Bilinguism is a real joke in this country and should be simply abandonned, it'd be less hypocritical than the current situation.  I mean, if you're going to invoke a 1731 laws to weasle yourself out of commiting the costs necessary to the translation (when the issue at hand is under financing of the french schools) something a government can afford to spend to rather than a committee of parents, I don't see the point at prentending we're bilinguals.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 12:29:11 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 11:10:14 PM
You can keep on trying to make this about me, with references to things you've made up that you claim happened, what, a decade ago? but it just makes you look that much more desperate and out of touch. It's not like I have a dog in this race - my opinion is completely motivated by you and grallons arguments - you've made me go from completely ambivalent to adamantly opposed to your position.
Look, what can I tell you?  You see fairies, I tell you they don't exist, you still see them.  You can't be arsed to read about it yourself, you don't believe facts when you see them, they are all propaganda to you.  It's like arguing with an intelligent design supporter, no matter what you tell him, he as the Faith, and that's all that counts. 

Really, I'm wondering what you're trying to achieve here, other than trolling?  You say I invent rights that are clearly in our Constitution, wich you never bother to read.  You say french bashing does not exist, yet it is a fact often demonstrated.  You say discrimination against French speakser has never existed, despite the historical evidence wich would take you a few minutes to read on Wikipedia, if you're too lazy to buy a book on Canadian history.

You probably still can't name my Prime Minister, and you used to think that Quebec was part of France.
What can I say?  This is a deaf dialogue, and you're just trolling like you used to on EUOT, back in the old days when you where whining about everything and the injustice of the American people so misunderstood by the Evil Europeans.

You know what?  I used to think you were a racist fuck, but I think you're just a moron unable to comprehend what he reads and depends on other to feed him the info, pre-digested.  I guess you must be a huge fan of Fox News and other networks of the sort, for special people just like you :)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 12:51:47 AM
Rage much?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 12:52:57 AM
Marty can't understand oppression and Berkut us a racist Fox News fan. Glad we've cleared that up.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Zoupa on September 16, 2014, 02:19:34 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 09:50:25 AM
Indeed. Which is why I find the entire thing kind of amusing. The idea that people living in Canada are oppressed is just...funny. I mean...it is fucking Canada. Is there a less oppressive nation in the history of mankind than Canada?

How about educating yourself instead of going "lol cut it out you guyz, it's Canada! My preconceived ideas backed by absolutely nothing but my gut feeling tells me this is BS!"
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:45:02 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 09:04:25 PM
If your boss told you that from now on, everyone speaks English and Polish is forbidden, you would submit and smile?
I wouldn't, for sure.
No, I specifically said that would be wrong (in the part that you did not deign to quote).

QuoteIt should not be able for force english at work.  Having english necessary to communicate with clients, suppliers or another branch is a totally different matter than having the entire work environment in another language, especially when it's necessity is not really demonstrated.

I always require bilinguism of my office employees, but that's a totally different thing than forcing them to work in english.

Again, it depends on what you mean by "force". You should not be able to require "watercooler" talk to be done in English. And if two people are talking business (and this is not done at a larger meeting etc. and the conversation is not recorded etc. for whatever purposes) then you shouldn't be able to require them to speak a specific language if they choose not to. But I don't have a problem that, for example, with requiring that official written communication or larger meetings within the firm are done in a language that the firm prefers.

QuoteDoes Poland finance public education in Russian and Ukrainian?

Sorry, the way you express yourself, I am sometimes not sure what you are saying. I thought the point you were making was that you were fine with Quebec providing English language education to people who come from English speaking countries, but should refuse to provide English language education to people who come from non-English speaking countries (in which case it is either French or bust). If that is not what you were arguing, then I obviously do not think the state should be required to provide education in Suahili, or Indian or whatever. But for the record Poland for example does provide free public education in Roma language, among other things, so this is not so outlandish.

QuoteI see a problem with it just as I see a problem with a topless women on an advertising near an elementary school.
It is improper and it destroys a particular cachet, that is all.

Again, a completely wrong (and, frankly, offensive) comparison. By the way, the way you (or grallon) introduce those French words to English communication makes you look tres pretentieux.

QuoteBeing French is a distinctive advantage in North America, it we look all the same as Ottawa or Toronto, there's really no reason for tourists to visit.

That would be possibly justified in tourist areas (such as Old Town or whatever Montreal has) but arguing that entire Quebec should subscribe to crazy language restrictions as if it was one big tourist park is quite silly (not to mention, I begin to see why you are losing people - are you also requiring all locals to wear berets, smoke long cigarettes and talk about Sartre in public?)

QuoteEnglish isn't really a threat to Poland.  What is the probability that a part of your country will be solely english speaking within 2-3 generations?

I can see this happening. But so what? That's how cultural exchange works. To be honest I don't even understand the concept of a language being a "threat". A "threat" to what? Our precious bodily fluids?  :huh:

QuoteAnd taking "your business elsewhere" wasn't really an option when these laws voted.  Even later, even today, you just won't see English Canada letting a Quebec based company take over their big corporations.  Canadian Pacific and the Toronto Stock Exchange are good examples of that.  With a little help from the Feds, they were able to successfully resist these take overs.  Nowadays, both corporations are owned by foreigners instead of Canadians, but at least, they don't speak french.

So, major corporations are based in Ontario, Toronto area.  Not the most french friendly place in the country.
Can't exactly retaliate against the Canadians the same way, the Feds will be all over us in a minute.

So what's left?  The ugly reality of having a government forced to define basic rights.  It's stupid, be we are there.  And with the help of these laws, and the development of a financial sector based in Quebec, we were able to create our own "Quebec inc".

As it is now, it's still easier for a Quebec based corporations to expand in the US than in Canada.

Ok, these are quite serious accusations and if true, would be a big problem with equal protection under law. Could other Canadians (especially lawyers) chime in, please, to let me know if this is really the case, and federal regulators are discriminating against Quebec companies?

QuoteCheck past employment offers from Paradox.  Knowledge of Swedish is required.  Not because they are totally closed to the outside world, but just because that is their work environment.  They are a sovereign nation, they can do whatever they want.

That's their right (although, if I were a shareholder I would be concerned that by shutting out all non-Swedish-speaking programmers, they are excluding a significant part of the market from their supply; also, seeing how some of the event text in CK2 or EU4 is written, perhaps hiring more people with knowledge of English would be good). But not sure what this has to do with being a "sovereign nation" (I didn't know Paradox is controlled by the Swedish crown). If they wanted, they could require all employees to speak Mandarin - whether it would be a sound business decision or not is another matter.

QuoteYour country, your choice.  My country, my choice.

So your response to my points is that you can do/say whatever you like, because you say so? Remind me why we are even having this discussion again?  :huh:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:48:35 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 15, 2014, 11:10:14 PM
:yawn:

From my point of view, modern people like yourself crying because their language isn't special enough to everyone is just comical and silly. The idea that Canada is opressing you is just hilarious.

You can keep on trying to make this about me, with references to things you've made up that you claim happened, what, a decade ago? but it just makes you look that much more desperate and out of touch. It's not like I have a dog in this race - my opinion is completely motivated by you and grallons arguments - you've made me go from completely ambivalent to adamantly opposed to your position.

The best part is just how incapable you are of seeing how silly the entire thing is to nearly everyone else. You are lecturing a Pole about oppression and cultural domination by outsiders? Do you have even an inkling of how ridiculous that is?

This is pretty much how I feel as well. And unlike you, I am not from an English speaking country, so they can't just easily dismiss my view as "oh you would be talking differently if the roles were reversed".
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:50:44 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 15, 2014, 11:04:05 PM
coming from someone you constantly bitched when another language than english was used on a forum, that is extremely funny :)

If I am in a company of people where everybody speaks one language and then only some of those present also speak another language, I just find it impolite to start talking in the language not everyone in the group understands - this goes both for speaking Polish in an English speaking group where not everyone understands Polish, and vice versa.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2014, 05:29:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:45:02 AM

Again, a completely wrong (and, frankly, offensive) comparison. By the way, the way you (or grallon) introduce those French words to English communication makes you look tres pretentieux.

Nice double standard! After your now infamous analogies (takes one like you to know about wrong and offensive comparisons), you continue to improve your act. Now, it's not ok for francophones to use French words in English but when it's trendy and understood for Anglos or Anglo-wannabees like you it's ok?
Your new "see i'm open to diversity by virtue of francophobia" is quite a contrast, compared to your not exactly diversity-loving attitude after the discovery of the "multicultural" Brussels.
But then, it's nothing compared to Polonisation in the glorious days of Poland. Yes, Poland has been on both sides of oppression. Just ask, say the (western) Ukrainians, who are no angels themselves, before you start going hysterical in your own very way.

QuoteBeing French is a distinctive advantage in North America, it we look all the same as Ottawa or Toronto, there's really no reason for tourists to visit.

Quote
That would be possibly justified in tourist areas (such as Old Town or whatever Montreal has) but arguing that entire Quebec should subscribe to crazy language restrictions as if it was one big tourist park is quite silly (not to mention, I begin to see why you are losing people - are you also requiring all locals to wear berets, smoke long cigarettes and talk about Sartre in public?)

Pstt. Québécois are not Hollywood-style French people. Your francophobia shows up again. ;) That, or you're as knowledgeable about France, Québec as about wine (icicles ftw!) when trying to pass as "western and liberal". Overcompensating much?

QuoteEnglish isn't really a threat to Poland.  What is the probability that a part of your country will be solely english speaking within 2-3 generations?

Quote
I can see this happening. But so what? That's how cultural exchange works. To be honest I don't even understand the concept of a language being a "threat". A "threat" to what? Our precious bodily fluids?  :huh:

Like hell there will be an English-speaking part in Poland in 2-3 generations  :lol: How far New York is from Warsaw again? You are more likely to have to learn Russian as lingua franca as in the good old WP times though. How's that? :)

Quote

So your response to my points is that you can do/say whatever you like, because you say so? Remind me why we are even having this discussion again?  :huh:

Well, you are having this discussion to troll Viper and Grallon since you do not have a clue about the Francophone situation in Canada, à la Berkut (if you use the French saying spell it correctly please). I must confess it's funnier than your previous actions against Raz though.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 06:35:52 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2014, 05:29:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:45:02 AM

Again, a completely wrong (and, frankly, offensive) comparison. By the way, the way you (or grallon) introduce those French words to English communication makes you look tres pretentieux.

Nice double standard! After your now infamous analogies (takes one like you to know about wrong and offensive comparisons), you continue to improve your act. Now, it's not ok for francophones to use French words in English but when it's trendy and understood for Anglos or Anglo-wannabees like you it's ok?

Ok. This is too funny. :lmfao:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 08:12:39 AM
Not responding to the entire rant (too time consuming) but I have to admit, this quote is irresistable:

Quote from: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 12:21:11 AM

Quote
Graham Fraser, an English Canadian journalist noted for his sympathy for Quebec, has tempered both sides. "This phenomenon (of English Canadian Francophobia) exists, I do not doubt it; I have read enough of Alberta Report to know that there are people that think bilingualism is a conspiracy against English Canadians to guarantee jobs for Quebecers — who are all bilingual, anyway.", he wrote. "I have heard enough call-in radio shows to know that these sentiments of fear and rage are not confined to the Canadian west. But I do not think these anti-francophone prejudices dominate the Canadian culture."[115] Fraser, in fact, was himself named as Canada's new Official Languages Commissioner in September 2006.

Translation: bureaucrat appointed to office designed to promote official bilingualism finds: opposition to bilingualism the worst example of bigotry possible.  :lol: Is completely unable to understand why unilingual anglophones feel disadvantaged in the federal jobs department compared with folks from Quebec - so the notion must be bigotry, not rational self-interest. Because lord knows, if there is one thing completely alien to a federal bureaucrat, it is rational self-interest.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 09:08:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 08:12:39 AM
Not responding to the entire rant (too time consuming) but I have to admit, this quote is irresistable:

Quote from: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 12:21:11 AM

Quote
Graham Fraser, an English Canadian journalist noted for his sympathy for Quebec, has tempered both sides. "This phenomenon (of English Canadian Francophobia) exists, I do not doubt it; I have read enough of Alberta Report to know that there are people that think bilingualism is a conspiracy against English Canadians to guarantee jobs for Quebecers — who are all bilingual, anyway.", he wrote. "I have heard enough call-in radio shows to know that these sentiments of fear and rage are not confined to the Canadian west. But I do not think these anti-francophone prejudices dominate the Canadian culture."[115] Fraser, in fact, was himself named as Canada's new Official Languages Commissioner in September 2006.

Translation: bureaucrat appointed to office designed to promote official bilingualism finds: opposition to bilingualism the worst example of bigotry possible.  :lol: Is completely unable to understand why unilingual anglophones feel disadvantaged in the federal jobs department compared with folks from Quebec - so the notion must be bigotry, not rational self-interest. Because lord knows, if there is one thing completely alien to a federal bureaucrat, it is rational self-interest.

At least you weren't called an "Anglo-wannabee" for saying that language-based apartheid is dumb. :D
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 16, 2014, 09:37:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 09:08:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 08:12:39 AM
Not responding to the entire rant (too time consuming) but I have to admit, this quote is irresistable:

Quote from: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 12:21:11 AM

Quote
Graham Fraser, an English Canadian journalist noted for his sympathy for Quebec, has tempered both sides. "This phenomenon (of English Canadian Francophobia) exists, I do not doubt it; I have read enough of Alberta Report to know that there are people that think bilingualism is a conspiracy against English Canadians to guarantee jobs for Quebecers — who are all bilingual, anyway.", he wrote. "I have heard enough call-in radio shows to know that these sentiments of fear and rage are not confined to the Canadian west. But I do not think these anti-francophone prejudices dominate the Canadian culture."[115] Fraser, in fact, was himself named as Canada's new Official Languages Commissioner in September 2006.

Translation: bureaucrat appointed to office designed to promote official bilingualism finds: opposition to bilingualism the worst example of bigotry possible.  :lol: Is completely unable to understand why unilingual anglophones feel disadvantaged in the federal jobs department compared with folks from Quebec - so the notion must be bigotry, not rational self-interest. Because lord knows, if there is one thing completely alien to a federal bureaucrat, it is rational self-interest.

At least you weren't called an "Anglo-wannabee" for saying that language-based apartheid is dumb. :D

I just wanted to point out that Alberta Report became The Report in 1999, and ceased publishing entirely in 2003.  While it should not surprise fellow Canadians that I was a regular reader, but it was hardly representative of anglo-Canadian views, being an avowedly conservative magazine with small circulation and struggling circulation numbers.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 09:49:55 AM
Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2014, 09:37:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 09:08:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 08:12:39 AM
Not responding to the entire rant (too time consuming) but I have to admit, this quote is irresistable:

Quote from: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 12:21:11 AM

Quote
Graham Fraser, an English Canadian journalist noted for his sympathy for Quebec, has tempered both sides. "This phenomenon (of English Canadian Francophobia) exists, I do not doubt it; I have read enough of Alberta Report to know that there are people that think bilingualism is a conspiracy against English Canadians to guarantee jobs for Quebecers — who are all bilingual, anyway.", he wrote. "I have heard enough call-in radio shows to know that these sentiments of fear and rage are not confined to the Canadian west. But I do not think these anti-francophone prejudices dominate the Canadian culture."[115] Fraser, in fact, was himself named as Canada's new Official Languages Commissioner in September 2006.

Translation: bureaucrat appointed to office designed to promote official bilingualism finds: opposition to bilingualism the worst example of bigotry possible.  :lol: Is completely unable to understand why unilingual anglophones feel disadvantaged in the federal jobs department compared with folks from Quebec - so the notion must be bigotry, not rational self-interest. Because lord knows, if there is one thing completely alien to a federal bureaucrat, it is rational self-interest.

At least you weren't called an "Anglo-wannabee" for saying that language-based apartheid is dumb. :D

I just wanted to point out that Alberta Report became The Report in 1999, and ceased publishing entirely in 2003.  While it should not surprise fellow Canadians that I was a regular reader, but it was hardly representative of anglo-Canadian views, being an avowedly conservative magazine with small circulation and struggling circulation numbers.

You mean his entire characterization of English Canadians is based on reading an unrepresentative, small-circulation conservative political mag that the vast majority of English Canadians had never even heard of and which no longer exists, and conservative talk-radio callers? What a shock.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
Racist
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: grumbler on September 16, 2014, 10:29:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 12:51:47 AM
Rage much?
:huh:  I think you broke the viper.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2014, 11:25:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 09:08:24 AM
At least you weren't called an "Anglo-wannabee" for saying that language-based apartheid is dumb. :D

Hyperbole much?
I'm shocked, shocked to find our resident drama queen firing on all cylinders.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 12:08:55 PM
You seem to have a rather selective tolerance for hyperbole. How is the strangling coming along?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2014, 12:35:39 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 12:08:55 PM
You seem to have a rather selective tolerance for hyperbole. How is the strangling coming along?

Takes one like you to know I guess. :)

:secret:

Wrong country! But as a hint to you, Chirac may unfortunately have been "my" president (no vote casted for him don't worry), except for some of his foreign policy around say 2003.
Nowadays though Cavaco Silva looks much better compared to the current one in France, as in not being a hindrance and being actually useful once in a while.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 12:49:29 PM
I still have no idea what you guys are babbling about in regards to Chirac. I suspect it is a large dose of bullshit.

The fact that your best collective response to your arguments being routinely demolished is to reference something that may or may not have happened 11 years ago in a completely unrelated topic says much about the strength of your position.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 01:04:50 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 12:08:55 PM
You seem to have a rather selective tolerance for hyperbole. How is the strangling coming along?

What I find super funny is how they seem to be so fired up over something that I couldn't care less about, save for the sheer illogicality of their arguments. :D
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2014, 01:07:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 12:49:29 PM
I still have no idea what you guys are babbling about in regards to Chirac. I suspect it is a large dose of bullshit.

The fact that your best collective response to your arguments being routinely demolished is to reference something that may or may not have happened 11 years ago in a completely unrelated topic says much about the strength of your position.

Wishful thinking and selective memory. Great combo but not enough to be as entertaining as Martinus' shrilly hyperbole who does not care, except to troll and show his ignorance e.g (French=Québécois & vice-versa).
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 16, 2014, 01:23:16 PM
It's the same old story.

Right now the CRTC is holding audiences on the future of Canadian TV. Each time the conversation is happening in French, the ignorant RoC crowd(on Twitter) starts crying how French isn't the language of Canada.

It's not oppression but it's damn annoying.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 01:27:02 PM
Quote from: An Actual Voice of Reason
It's not oppression but it's damn annoying.
QFT
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on September 16, 2014, 02:12:55 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 16, 2014, 01:23:16 PM
It's the same old story.

Right now the CRTC is holding audiences on the future of Canadian TV. Each time the conversation is happening in French, the ignorant RoC crowd(on Twitter) starts crying how French isn't the language of Canada.

It's not oppression but it's damn annoying.

That is obnoxious, but not representative of how RoC actually feels on the subject. As always, the obnoxious trolls make the loudest noises.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on September 16, 2014, 02:21:03 PM
Another note - personally, as an anglophone - when returning to Canada from overseas, the presence of French language stuff is comforting and familiar. Whether it's getting on to Air Canada and hearing announcements in both official languages, whether it's the customs forms on the plane, or the signage at the airport, seeing French and English side by side is a welcome sign of home.

I know I'm not the only anglophone who feels that way.

So anglo-chauvinists who mouth off about how French is a waste of resources or doesn't represent Canada most certainly do not represent me or my point of view. I'm very happy with official bilingualism in this country, and I'm sympathetic to the idea of the distinct society of Quebec.

That does not mean, however, that I can't find individual language based policies in Quebec to be ridiculous or counter-productive or wrong-headed even if I'm sympathetic to the preservation of Quebec culture and the French language.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
Racist.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:39:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
Racist.

And Anglo-wannabee.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 16, 2014, 03:12:25 PM
Queen lover!
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 16, 2014, 03:19:21 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 16, 2014, 03:12:25 PM
Queen lover!

I think Mart is a proponent of the "No fats, no fems!" <_<
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 16, 2014, 03:22:59 PM
Freddie Mercury was neither of those.  :cool:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 03:23:30 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 16, 2014, 03:22:59 PM
Freddie Mercury was neither of those.  :cool:

No handlebar moustaches.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2014, 03:38:00 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 08:12:39 AM
Translation: bureaucrat appointed to office designed to promote official bilingualism finds: opposition to bilingualism the worst example of bigotry possible.  :lol: Is completely unable to understand why unilingual anglophones feel disadvantaged in the federal jobs department compared with folks from Quebec - so the notion must be bigotry, not rational self-interest. Because lord knows, if there is one thing completely alien to a federal bureaucrat, it is rational self-interest.

Me too.  :huh:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 16, 2014, 03:38:53 PM
Well Viper, how do enjoy being the laughingstock of a self satisfied crowd?  Have you learned your lesson yet?



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 16, 2014, 03:41:31 PM
I would never laugh at Viper when I could laugh at Grallon instead.  :lmfao:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 16, 2014, 03:53:49 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2014, 03:38:00 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 08:12:39 AM
Translation: bureaucrat appointed to office designed to promote official bilingualism finds: opposition to bilingualism the worst example of bigotry possible.  :lol: Is completely unable to understand why unilingual anglophones feel disadvantaged in the federal jobs department compared with folks from Quebec - so the notion must be bigotry, not rational self-interest. Because lord knows, if there is one thing completely alien to a federal bureaucrat, it is rational self-interest.

Me too.  :huh:

The argument is quite simple, really.

If you grow up in Quebec or a few other pockets (Ottawa region, parts of New Brunswick) you're almost certain to grow up bilingually without any particular struggle or issue.  Hence most people there are bilingual.

If you grow up elsewhere though, becoming bilingual is a major undertaking.

And, anecdotally, I can tell you that far from Quebec, Quebecers are disproportionately over-represented in federal government management roles.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2014, 04:03:28 PM
Fair enough, but by the same token I don't think that's true of folks from the backwoods of Quebec.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 04:08:08 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2014, 03:38:00 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 08:12:39 AM
Translation: bureaucrat appointed to office designed to promote official bilingualism finds: opposition to bilingualism the worst example of bigotry possible.  :lol: Is completely unable to understand why unilingual anglophones feel disadvantaged in the federal jobs department compared with folks from Quebec - so the notion must be bigotry, not rational self-interest. Because lord knows, if there is one thing completely alien to a federal bureaucrat, it is rational self-interest.

Me too.  :huh:

What BB said.

The net effect has been that, over time, people from Quebec are way disproportinately represented in federal government positions. Figures I have seen (dunno how accurate) is that, in senior fed positions, people from Quebec have one in three, while people from Quebec are around one in five in the country.

In much of English Canada, outside of some places in Manitoba, Ottawa, or New Brunswick, there is essentially no benefit to learning French (over the benefit of learning any other language) other than to get a federal government job - as essentially only a very tiny minority of people around you speak it: in Toronto, for example, as many people have "French" as their mother tounge as have "Gujarti". The net result is that, looking at it in terms of cold hard rational self-interest, the bilingual requirements disadvantage anglo Canadians on average, at least in terms of the chances of getting a federal government job - the net benefit is making Jacob feel comfortable on the one hand, and keeping the country grudgingly united on the other.  ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 16, 2014, 04:12:08 PM
Fun fact - when I was hired to work for the Feds, the position I was in required a bilingual prosecutor.  Whoops!

Thankfully, a month or two later (and well before they discovered this little quirk) they had already hired a bilingual Quebec prosecutor, so we just swapped our positions (on the ground of course nothing changed whatsoever).
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 16, 2014, 05:44:53 PM
Maybe the Canadian government should work on expanding Francophone presence in western provinces.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 16, 2014, 05:49:47 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 16, 2014, 02:21:03 PM
Another note - personally, as an anglophone - when returning to Canada from overseas, the presence of French language stuff is comforting and familiar. Whether it's getting on to Air Canada and hearing announcements in both official languages, whether it's the customs forms on the plane, or the signage at the airport, seeing French and English side by side is a welcome sign of home.

I know I'm not the only anglophone who feels that way.

So anglo-chauvinists who mouth off about how French is a waste of resources or doesn't represent Canada most certainly do not represent me or my point of view. I'm very happy with official bilingualism in this country, and I'm sympathetic to the idea of the distinct society of Quebec.

That does not mean, however, that I can't find individual language based policies in Quebec to be ridiculous or counter-productive or wrong-headed even if I'm sympathetic to the preservation of Quebec culture and the French language.

This is reassuring for francophones, I believe. Though I suppose the question that could be debated now is the amount of desired or even possible change and/or improvement in the language policies in Québec, since a significant enough proportion of francophones want them to stay, for good reason IMO given the situation of the French language in Canada and North America. The bigotry shown by some in the rest of Canada and elsewhere, gives yet another proof they still have a raison d'être.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 06:14:31 PM
Bigotry is certainly bad, but the only thing worse is bigotry espoused in the name of fighting imagined or historical bigotry.

The road to hell and all that...
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 16, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
A hierarchy of bigotry!  Such a convenient conceit...



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: PRC on September 16, 2014, 09:29:27 PM
The eventual resolution to this topic must be separation for Quebec because the status quo is apparently not satisfying.  The experiment will be sink or swim for the Quebecois.  I envision a Northern Argentina with a poor economy perpetually close to default while also being hostile to immigration... but perhaps the resources of Quebec's North will be exploited to her gain, opportunity for a thriving tourism sector is there but what if the tourist's aren't French speaking? 
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 16, 2014, 09:31:21 PM
Quote from: PRC on September 16, 2014, 09:29:27 PM
Opportunity for a thriving tourism sector is there but what if the tourist's aren't French speaking? 

Well they've let me be a tourist many times without speaking French.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 09:31:56 PM
Are officials in Quebec required to be able to speak English?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 16, 2014, 09:33:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 09:31:56 PM
Are officials in Quebec required to be able to speak English?

It seems so, at least if they are Feds....or whatever they call Feds in Canada.  Provincial officials probably don't.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 16, 2014, 09:34:53 PM
Quote from: PRC on September 16, 2014, 09:29:27 PM
The eventual resolution to this topic must be separation for Quebec because the status quo is apparently not satisfying.

I don't follow.  It might be something else.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on September 16, 2014, 09:37:43 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 16, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
A hierarchy of bigotry!  Such a convenient conceit...

G.

Exactly. Bigotry against gay people is no better and no worse than bigotry against muslims.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 16, 2014, 09:41:07 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 16, 2014, 09:37:43 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 16, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
A hierarchy of bigotry!  Such a convenient conceit...

G.

Exactly. Bigotry against gay people is no better and no worse than bigotry against muslims.

I don't know. I mean one group is fabulous and it should be a crime to hate that.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 16, 2014, 09:41:34 PM
Feds is right.

@Berk It's probably a requirement for judges & lawyers. I don't know how many officials speak english in the further reaches tho. Then again the native northen populations speak english not french.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 09:49:25 PM
I guess what I am wondering is if an English speaker in Quebec has the same legal rights/opportunities to be served by the government in his language that French speakers in the rest of Canada have to be served by the government in their language.

I think the answer is no - because Quebec is NOT officially a multilingual province (it is uni-lingual) but the rest of Canada is officially bilingual.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 16, 2014, 09:56:57 PM
Only one province is bilingual, new brunswick, all others are unilingual. The federal government is bilingual.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 10:06:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:50:44 AM
If I am in a company of people where everybody speaks one language and then only some of those present also speak another language, I just find it impolite to start talking in the language not everyone in the group understands - this goes both for speaking Polish in an English speaking group where not everyone understands Polish, and vice versa.
So, you infringe on people's individual rights.  How intolerant of you.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 10:08:36 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 08:12:39 AM
Translation: bureaucrat appointed to office designed to promote official bilingualism finds: opposition to bilingualism the worst example of bigotry possible.  :lol: Is completely unable to understand why unilingual anglophones feel disadvantaged in the federal jobs department compared with folks from Quebec - so the notion must be bigotry, not rational self-interest. Because lord knows, if there is one thing completely alien to a federal bureaucrat, it is rational self-interest.
Those comments were made before he was named Commissioner to the official language.
But I knew you would dismiss it, just as you over-exagerate the horrible plight of the Quebec anglo community.

Always the double standard :)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 10:23:57 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 16, 2014, 08:12:39 AM
Is completely unable to understand why unilingual anglophones feel disadvantaged in the federal jobs department compared with folks from Quebec - so the notion must be bigotry, not rational self-interest. Because lord knows, if there is one thing completely alien to a federal bureaucrat, it is rational self-interest.
Prime Minister: bilinguism not required.
Cabinet Minister: bilinguism not required.
Supreme Court judge: bilinguism not required.
Federal court judge: bilinguism not required.
Deputy minister (and all variations): bilinguism not required.
Head of RCMP: bilinguism not required.
Head of CBC: bilinguism not required.
Head of CSIS: bilinguism not required.
Head of Via Rail: bilinguism not required.
Top 10 jobs of any crown corporation: bilinguism not required.
Top 10 jobs in any government department: bilinguism not required.
General sollicitor: bilinguism not required.
Auditor general: bilinguism not required.
Member of parliament: bilinguism not required.
Judge of any court in BC, AB, SK, MB, ON, NS, IPE, NF&L: bilinguism not required. (btw, you can't be judge in Quebec's superior court unless you are bilingual french-english, and possibly a card carrying member of both Liberal's party too ;) )
Crown prosecutor: bilinguism not required.
Head of Canadian armed forces: bilinguism not required.


That's horrible!  Being trapped in such a, a... bilingual (!) world!  How awful that people living in a bilingual country might be forced to learn -argh- French! (of all language!) to get a position at 35k/year serving as a secretary for the under deputy minister of transportation!
Yikes!  What an horrible, horrible fate imposed on our comrades from English Canada :(

And you know the worst part?  That one is beyond evil.  If a qualified government employee had the wish, the required qualifications and the seniority to occupy a bilingual position, a unilingual english canadian can still get the job, so long as he attends french classes.  Now, force someone in a bilingual position to attend french classes paid for by the employer, that's nazi-esque, to say the least.  And it costs billions and billions of $, all those employees getting a 30$ bonus on their bi-weekly paycheck...
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 16, 2014, 10:32:49 PM
When are the good $2000 stroller warriors of English Canada going to rise up against their French overlords?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 16, 2014, 10:36:46 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 10:23:57 PM
Prime Minister: bilinguism not required.
Cabinet Minister: bilinguism not required.
Supreme Court judge: bilinguism not required.
Federal court judge: bilinguism not required.
Deputy minister (and all variations): bilinguism not required.
Head of RCMP: bilinguism not required.
Head of CBC: bilinguism not required.
Head of CSIS: bilinguism not required.
Head of Via Rail: bilinguism not required.
Top 10 jobs of any crown corporation: bilinguism not required.
Top 10 jobs in any government department: bilinguism not required.
General sollicitor: bilinguism not required.
Auditor general: bilinguism not required.
Member of parliament: bilinguism not required.
Judge of any court in BC, AB, SK, MB, ON, NS, IPE, NF&L: bilinguism not required. (btw, you can't be judge in Quebec's superior court unless you are bilingual french-english, and possibly a card carrying member of both Liberal's party too ;) )
Crown prosecutor: bilinguism not required.
Head of Canadian armed forces: bilinguism not required.

Let's see...

Prime Minister - it's up to those who elect him what the requirements are, of course.  But please name me the last monolingual prime minister - Diefenbaker maybe in the 50s?

SCC judge - well Quebec is guaranteed 3 justices out of 9 in any event.  It was a minor scandal when one unilingual justice was appointed (Moldaver).  8 of 9 speak both languages.

DMs - political appointments.  All ADMs (who, in true Yes, Minister fashion, hold the real power) must be bilingual.

Similarly to top jobs in any government department - those are public service positions, and definitely are bilingual.

MPs, solicitor general - again are politicians, and depend on those who elect them.  I can tell you that since less than 5% of the population out here speaks French, to require MP candidates to be bilingual would be a profoundly undemocratic move.

Judges - I can tell you it's a person's constitutional right to have a trial in either official language, and that right is respected throughout Canada.  There are a number of bilingual judges (and prosecutors).  I however fail to see the advantage of requiring all judges and prosecutors to be bilingual, given that less than one trial in 100 is held in French.

Armed forces - all officers are required to be bilingual.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 10:37:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 16, 2014, 02:21:03 PM
So anglo-chauvinists who mouth off about how French is a waste of resources or doesn't represent Canada most certainly do not represent me or my point of view. I'm very happy with official bilingualism in this country, and I'm sympathetic to the idea of the distinct society of Quebec.
See Gral, we got two of them, over the long run.

Quote
That does not mean, however, that I can't find individual language based policies in Quebec to be ridiculous or counter-productive or wrong-headed even if I'm sympathetic to the preservation of Quebec culture and the French language.
I often find Albertan politics to be silly, with their anti-abortion and anti global warming speeches.
Lots of Québécois feel like that too.

Yet, when the Bloc campaigned against "Western Cowboys", they saw their numbers dip rapidly, and they received their lowest score to that point, before becoming nearly extinct at the last election doing the same kind of negative campaign.

While anglophobia is real in Quebec, it's nowhere near as prevalent as in English Canada where it will reach traditional medias.  The only anglophobic media I could think of is Vigile.net, a website only read (and reposted everywhere) by hard core PQ fans.  The Reform party once made it's campaign against officila bilinguism and saying there were too many French in Ottawa.  The xenophobic views often expressed by their members were nothing compared to Quebec's charter debate, yet, it received barely no mention in the media, compared to the evilness of the PQ silly charter.

And again, the recent charter fiasco has proven that anti-french and anti-Quebec sentiment are only skin deep.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 16, 2014, 10:42:10 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 10:37:37 PM
I often find Albertan politics to be silly, with their anti-abortion and anti global warming speeches.

Link please. :)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 16, 2014, 10:55:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 10:06:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:50:44 AM
If I am in a company of people where everybody speaks one language and then only some of those present also speak another language, I just find it impolite to start talking in the language not everyone in the group understands - this goes both for speaking Polish in an English speaking group where not everyone understands Polish, and vice versa.
So, you infringe on people's individual rights.  How intolerant of you.

:huh:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2014, 10:58:09 PM
Every single officer, from the lowest shavetail louie on up, has to be bilingual?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 11:07:24 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2014, 10:36:46 PM
Prime Minister - it's up to those who elect him what the requirements are, of course.  But please name me the last monolingual prime minister - Diefenbaker maybe in the 50s?
I don't deny that it's up to those that votes to chose the right candidate, but nothing would prevent an unilingual candidate to postulate for the job, like, say, Preston Manning.

As for monolinguals PM: (saying "allo" does not count ;) )
MacDonald, Borden, Mackenzie King, Diefenbaker, Pearson, Turner, Campbell.
Only Joe Clark and Harper were truly bilingual anglophones.

Quote
SCC judge - well Quebec is guaranteed 3 justices out of 9 in any event.  It was a minor scandal when one unilingual justice was appointed (Moldaver).  8 of 9 speak both languages.
But the Feds did try a loophole to that requirement, wich was rejected by the court, and they are still trying to find another scheme to get him back to this bench.

QuoteDMs - political appointments.  All ADMs (who, in true Yes, Minister fashion, hold the real power) must be bilingual.
Can't find it right now, but it wasn't the case when I was working there.

Quote
Similarly to top jobs in any government department - those are public service positions, and definitely are bilingual.
Not really, know.  You often see unilingual english speakers in these jobs.

Quote
MPs, solicitor general - again are politicians, and depend on those who elect them.  I can tell you that since less than 5% of the population out here speaks French, to require MP candidates to be bilingual would be a profoundly undemocratic move.
It would serve as incitement for people to learn this country both official languages.

Quote
Judges - I can tell you it's a person's constitutional right to have a trial in either official language, and that right is respected throughout Canada.
No, not really.  See the British Columbia case where English is the language of the law and the Supreme Court upheld that.  Trial is in english, and all documents must be submitted in english.
Manitoba has a provision for this only since 2008, and it's not always respected.
Alberta laws need not be translated in French (http://ualawccsprod.srv.ualberta.ca/ccs/index.php/constitutional-issues/federalism/768-r-v-caron-2014-alberta-has-no-constitutional-obligation-to-publish-laws-in-french).  And the right to a french trial exists only since 2000.

Quote
There are a number of bilingual judges (and prosecutors).  I however fail to see the advantage of requiring all judges and prosecutors to be bilingual, given that less than one trial in 100 is held in French.
I don't even ask that much.
But it is to answer Malthus complaints that Quebec people are favored for government jobs because of bilinguism requirement.
Anyway, about that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_bilingualism_in_the_public_service_of_Canada#Ratio_of_native_English-speakers_to_native_French-speakers)
Second paragraph.  It's only recently that francos became over-represented in public services.

Quote
Armed forces - all officers are required to be bilingual.
That's only the theory, often ignored.
But classes are provided by the army, you don't need to be bilingual to join.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 11:12:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 16, 2014, 10:42:10 PM
Link please. :)
All the debates we hear about a Conservative MP trying to push back anti-abortion law some way or another, that is totally non existent in Alberta?
Wildrose leader now believes in climate change (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/wildrose-leader-now-believes-in-climate-change-as-party-set-to-shift-policies/article15098616/): 2013...
Quote
During the 2012 campaign, the Leader said that the science on climate change wasn't settled. Earlier this week, Ms. Smith said the science didn't matter but that market access for Alberta's crude and trade with other concerned countries and jurisdictions does.
Kinda makes me doubt of the sincerity...

About abortion an gay rights (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/wildrose-party-clarifies-abortion-position-1.1230961)
Quote
In a survey last fall for the Rocky Mountain Civil Liberties Association, Smith wrote that her party would "ensure conscience rights for marriage commissioners and health professionals."
The rule would mean provincial employees could refuse to perform abortions or to marry gay couples if those duties go against their personal beliefs.
But it's Alberta's politics, it is not my business at all what Alberta does or does not do to Albertans.  I was just giving an example.  :)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 11:15:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 16, 2014, 10:58:09 PM
Every single officer, from the lowest shavetail louie on up, has to be bilingual?
The theory is yes.  In practice, though:
QuoteISSUE
In 2011, the federal government announced
the closure of the Marine Rescue Sub-Centre in
Québec City. Marine distress calls from vessels
in the waters of Eastern Canada would now be
handled by the Trenton and Halifax Joint Rescue
Coordination Centres. This announcement
triggered strong reactions from people worried
about losing the public's right to be served in
French. In the wake of this announcement, the
Commissioner received several complaints
against Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

COMMISSIONER'S ACTIONS
The Commissioner conducted an investigation to
evaluate whether the decision of Fisheries and
Oceans Canada contravened Parts IV and VII of
the Official Languages Ac, which deal respectively
with communications with and services to the
public, and the promotion of English and French.
The Commissioner then decided to expand the
investigation to include National Defence, which is
responsible for coordinating maritime search and
rescue in Canada.
At the time the Commissioner's final investigation
report was submitted, the Trenton and Halifax Joint
Rescue Coordination Centres still did not have the
capacity to handle distress calls in English and
French equally at all times. The complaints were
therefore considered to be founded under Part IV
of the Act

So all calls for the St-Lawrence would have been handled in Halifax.  In English only.  By people who don't know the river and the geography.

Try to imagine the opposite.  Halifax gets shut down, Quebec city takes over the mandate.  The public outcry in canadian media...
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 11:32:17 PM

Quote from: viper37So all calls for the St-Lawrence would have been handled in Halifax.  In English only.

Your article does not say in English only, it says

"the Trenton and Halifax Joint
Rescue Coordination Centres still did not have the
capacity to handle distress calls in English and
French equally at all times."

That is so far away from "in English only" it isn't even funny. Why do you just blatantly lie about this stuff?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Razgovory on September 16, 2014, 11:58:18 PM
Viper this is absurd.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:02:25 AM
We asked him for examples of how his people are being "strangled" and he provides examples. Don't say that is absurd!
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Razgovory on September 17, 2014, 12:44:59 AM
I oppose all attempts to make English the "Official language" in this country.  I don't care for these identity politics.  I would be much more sympathetic if there was real and serious grievances like the discussion a few weeks ago about Latvia disenfranchising Russian speakers (most of whom were born there).  That is genuine strangling and tyranny.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 12:50:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2014, 10:55:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 10:06:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:50:44 AM
If I am in a company of people where everybody speaks one language and then only some of those present also speak another language, I just find it impolite to start talking in the language not everyone in the group understands - this goes both for speaking Polish in an English speaking group where not everyone understands Polish, and vice versa.
So, you infringe on people's individual rights.  How intolerant of you.

:huh:

I was wondering about this too. Viper is so ridiculous, it is not clear when he is serious or sarcastic.  :lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 01:49:05 AM
FWIW I support independence for Canadian Francophones. :)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 08:18:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 11:32:17 PM

Quote from: viper37So all calls for the St-Lawrence would have been handled in Halifax.  In English only.

Your article does not say in English only, it says

"the Trenton and Halifax Joint
Rescue Coordination Centres still did not have the
capacity to handle distress calls in English and
French equally at all times."

That is so far away from "in English only" it isn't even funny. Why do you just blatantly lie about this stuff?

:huh:

He's not lieing you are just falling for the PC trap of Canadian bureaucracy.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 17, 2014, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 16, 2014, 05:44:53 PM
Maybe the Canadian government should work on expanding Francophone presence in western provinces.

Hey, you went, didn't even last a week if I recall correctly!  :lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 08:56:53 AM
My failure is the Federal government failure, I agree.


3 weeks. :face:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 10:45:16 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 17, 2014, 12:44:59 AM
I oppose all attempts to make English the "Official language" in this country.  I don't care for these identity politics. 

Same. Speaking English is not what makes someone American.

I support encouraging immigrants to learn English of course, since as a practical matter they will integrate better and be more productive when they do, but there isn't any moral or nationalist component to that - quite the opposite in fact. Tolerance of others is what makes America great, and the part of our culture worth protecting is the part that accepts and encourages other cultures, languages, and people. This in stark contrast to the idea (held by some) that culture is something that stands in perpetual conflict to any change or acceptance of outside influences.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 10:46:41 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 08:18:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 11:32:17 PM

Quote from: viper37So all calls for the St-Lawrence would have been handled in Halifax.  In English only.

Your article does not say in English only, it says

"the Trenton and Halifax Joint
Rescue Coordination Centres still did not have the
capacity to handle distress calls in English and
French equally at all times."

That is so far away from "in English only" it isn't even funny. Why do you just blatantly lie about this stuff?

:huh:

He's not lieing you are just falling for the PC trap of Canadian bureaucracy.

I don't understand what you mean.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 10:47:35 AM
That is a very American sentiment. Something your English Comrade to the north haven't shared for a long period of our history.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 10:46:41 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 08:18:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 11:32:17 PM

Quote from: viper37So all calls for the St-Lawrence would have been handled in Halifax.  In English only.

Your article does not say in English only, it says

"the Trenton and Halifax Joint
Rescue Coordination Centres still did not have the
capacity to handle distress calls in English and
French equally at all times."

That is so far away from "in English only" it isn't even funny. Why do you just blatantly lie about this stuff?

:huh:

He's not lieing you are just falling for the PC trap of Canadian bureaucracy.

I don't understand what you mean.

It means No French.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 10:52:02 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 10:46:41 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 08:18:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 16, 2014, 11:32:17 PM

Quote from: viper37So all calls for the St-Lawrence would have been handled in Halifax.  In English only.

Your article does not say in English only, it says

"the Trenton and Halifax Joint
Rescue Coordination Centres still did not have the
capacity to handle distress calls in English and
French equally at all times."

That is so far away from "in English only" it isn't even funny. Why do you just blatantly lie about this stuff?

:huh:

He's not lieing you are just falling for the PC trap of Canadian bureaucracy.

I don't understand what you mean.

It means No French.

That isn't what it says - if that is what it means, you will need to provide more evidence to make the point.

What it says is that they cannot provide equal French responses at all times. You cannot use that as evidence that there isn't any French at all.

Maybe that is true, but the article in question doesn't show it to be true. Perhaps they are lying, but in that case we are left with just an unsupported claim that they are lying, and it strikes me as rather odd that one would use an article you are claiming is a lie to support a claim that something else entirely is true. Why even bring the article up in that case?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 10:55:48 AM
Are you new here? Have you not interacted with Viper before?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 17, 2014, 10:57:23 AM
Yes, if you call between 9h-17h Monday to Friday and ask Brigitte for all your emergency need, you will have French support with limited knowledge of the St-Lawrence.  It ain't no french at all, ergo we are liars.

I think Berkut never got around the fact that didn't follow the US in the Irak war and he since hates all French speakers.  That or he's just a moron unable to read by himself unless it's spoonfed.

Say, if it ain't a problem to transfer the Marine rescue sub-center to Halifax, why not move the Halifax center to Quebec city?  Oh no wait, that's not the same...
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 10:58:27 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 10:55:48 AM
Are you new here? Have you not interacted with Viper before?

that is what confused me - I thought you were seriously defending his use of that article to support his position.

And since you seem to be kind of reasonable, I was a little surprised...

Fourteen years from now, this will be used as evidence that I am a racist though...
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 11:00:40 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 17, 2014, 10:57:23 AM
Yes, if you call between 9h-17h Monday to Friday and ask Brigitte for all your emergency need, you will have French support with limited knowledge of the St-Lawrence.  It ain't no french at all, ergo we are liars.

Yes, if the reality is that there is in fact French support, then saying there is no French support is by definition, a lie. That is what the word means - to say something that you know is not true.

I am glad we cleared that up.

Of course, the article you cited as support for your claim that there is no French support doesn't even say what you are claiming it says right now either.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 11:01:58 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 17, 2014, 10:57:23 AM
I think Berkut never got around the fact that didn't follow the US in the Irak war and he since hates all French speakers.

The ad homs continue to strengthen your argument.

I mean that seriously - personal attacks on those who disagree with you are actually considerably stronger than the arguments you are making otherwise.


However, they are becoming a little disjointed - I thought my position was because I was a racist Fox News follower? Can you at least come up with a consistent personal attack?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 11:19:44 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 10:58:27 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 10:55:48 AM
Are you new here? Have you not interacted with Viper before?

that is what confused me - I thought you were seriously defending his use of that article to support his position.

And since you seem to be kind of reasonable, I was a little surprised...

Fourteen years from now, this will be used as evidence that I am a racist though...

I live in a different world than Viper's.  I use english, both spoken & written, everyday and not just to argue with Yanks on the internet. It's not just a zeitgeist for me like it seems to be for him and Grallon.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 11:22:21 AM
I just got a press release from the company I work for. It is in French, which comes as no surprise since the company I work for is headquartered in Paris, and is in fact French.

This is, of course, really inconvenient since I hate the French so much...:lmfao:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 11:40:00 AM
Fuck France.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 17, 2014, 12:43:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.

What - being sent to Edmonton isn't good enough for you? :mad:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Razgovory on September 17, 2014, 01:29:38 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 17, 2014, 10:57:23 AM
Yes, if you call between 9h-17h Monday to Friday and ask Brigitte for all your emergency need, you will have French support with limited knowledge of the St-Lawrence.  It ain't no french at all, ergo we are liars.

I think Berkut never got around the fact that didn't follow the US in the Irak war and he since hates all French speakers.  That or he's just a moron unable to read by himself unless it's spoonfed.

Say, if it ain't a problem to transfer the Marine rescue sub-center to Halifax, why not move the Halifax center to Quebec city?  Oh no wait, that's not the same...

What about me?  I wasn't keen on the Iraq war at all.  I don't feel any need to make immigrants speak English.  If 10,000 Mongolians want to move to mid Missouri, start their own town and create Mongolian language newspapers and do their own thing, that's fine.  It's a free country, they can do what they want.  So long as they don't form a horde and start pillaging the surrounding area.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 01:33:45 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 17, 2014, 01:29:38 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 17, 2014, 10:57:23 AM
Yes, if you call between 9h-17h Monday to Friday and ask Brigitte for all your emergency need, you will have French support with limited knowledge of the St-Lawrence.  It ain't no french at all, ergo we are liars.

I think Berkut never got around the fact that didn't follow the US in the Irak war and he since hates all French speakers.  That or he's just a moron unable to read by himself unless it's spoonfed.

Say, if it ain't a problem to transfer the Marine rescue sub-center to Halifax, why not move the Halifax center to Quebec city?  Oh no wait, that's not the same...

What about me?  I wasn't keen on the Iraq war at all.  I don't feel any need to make immigrants speak English.  If 10,000 Mongolians want to move to mid Missouri, start their own town and create Mongolian language newspapers and do their own thing, that's fine.  It's a free country, they can do what they want.  So long as they don't form a horde and start pillaging the surrounding area.

I wasn't keen on the Iraq war either.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 17, 2014, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 17, 2014, 12:43:16 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.

What - being sent to Edmonton isn't good enough for you? :mad:

Heh, I hate business travel. I always think I will have time to see the local sights and activities and it always turns out all I see is the inside of a boardroom.

Why, if I was sent to Edmonton on business, I bet I would not even have time to survey the local tundra, or take in even one francophone lynching.  :(
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 17, 2014, 01:40:21 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 11:19:44 AM


I live in a different world than Viper's.  I use english, both spoken & written, everyday and not just to argue with Yanks on the internet. It's not just a zeitgeist for me like it seems to be for him and Grallon.


No wonder you advocate loose rules when writing in french - you're already halfway through assimilation.  <_<



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 17, 2014, 01:41:32 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 17, 2014, 01:38:03 PM
Why, if I was sent to Edmonton on business, I bet I would not even have time to survey the local tundra, or take in even one francophone lynching.  :(

Don't you have those in Toronto?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.

I was in Paris on business two weeks ago. I made sure to order a burger with fries at a restaurant.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 17, 2014, 01:43:25 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 01:41:32 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 17, 2014, 01:38:03 PM
Why, if I was sent to Edmonton on business, I bet I would not even have time to survey the local tundra, or take in even one francophone lynching.  :(

Don't you have those in Toronto?

Well short of the tundra, and no francophones to lynch.  :(
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 17, 2014, 01:45:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.

I was in Paris on business two weeks ago. I made sure to order a burger with fries at a restaurant.

Did the fries come with mayonnaise? :x
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 01:46:28 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 01:45:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.

I was in Paris on business two weeks ago. I made sure to order a burger with fries at a restaurant.

Did the fries come with mayonnaise? :x

Nay, good sir.

That being said, I ate french fries with mayo a lot when I lived in Brussels - they make for a good side dish with moules and the heavy dark Belgian beer.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 01:54:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.

I was in Paris on business two weeks ago. I made sure to order a burger with fries at a restaurant.

Bah, just another idiot tourist getting overcharged. Probably paid by the company. Move along.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 17, 2014, 02:01:37 PM
While Marty may not care much about being overcharged, I'm sure he can read the prices on the menu.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 01:54:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.

I was in Paris on business two weeks ago. I made sure to order a burger with fries at a restaurant.

Bah, just another idiot tourist getting overcharged. Probably paid by the company. Move along.

You and viper spouting insults without provocation is actually quite funny.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:06:16 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:01:37 PM
While Marty may not care much about being overcharged, I'm sure he can read the prices on the menu.

He can read but can he understand? Seems not, judging by his posting.
It's not like he has any accurate idea about average prices in France or Paris, or much else, except maybe trolling and parroting some anti-French bigotry.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:07:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 01:54:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.

I was in Paris on business two weeks ago. I made sure to order a burger with fries at a restaurant.

Bah, just another idiot tourist getting overcharged. Probably paid by the company. Move along.

You and viper spouting insults without provocation is actually quite funny.

So now Viper is not only a Frenchman, but a Parisian as well? That's über-Berkutesque.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 17, 2014, 02:08:59 PM
Are burgers that expensive in France? Typically they're one of the cheaper entrees available in American restaurants.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:14:41 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:08:59 PM
Are burgers that expensive in France? Typically they're one of the cheaper entrees available in American restaurants.

Not sure. The hotel was EUR 500 a night, so the burger did not seem that expensive in comparison.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:15:21 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:07:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 01:54:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
I just wish they would send me to Paris for a meeting or something.

I was in Paris on business two weeks ago. I made sure to order a burger with fries at a restaurant.

Bah, just another idiot tourist getting overcharged. Probably paid by the company. Move along.

You and viper spouting insults without provocation is actually quite funny.

So now Viper is not only a Frenchman, but a Parisian as well? That's über-Berkutesque.
:hmm:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:25:03 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:08:59 PM
Are burgers that expensive in France? Typically they're one of the cheaper entrees available in American restaurants.

Martinus going to a cheap place, selecting a cheap entrée on a business trip? Now that's the worst possible insult to him.  I wouldn't dare. :D

It's Paris, so it can be expensive. Could be an overpriced and overated bobo/hipster place. "Food trucks" are popular among them for instance.
François Hollande managed to pay 140 euros for a salad there http://www.le-laurent.com/uk/ (http://www.le-laurent.com/uk/)
http://www.le-laurent.com/maj/pdf/Carte_3_janvier_2012_AVEC_prix_SOIR.pdf (http://www.le-laurent.com/maj/pdf/Carte_3_janvier_2012_AVEC_prix_SOIR.pdf)
Just to give you an idea, but Bernard-Henry Lévy probably helped him, if you worry about French taxpayer money being mispent.
They don't sell burgers there though.

So for a burger, in west Paris ("bourgeois" area but outside of the Champs-Élysée golden mile) I see for instance this Schwartz's Deli (perfect for Languish) with burgers between 12-24 euros. I'm sure you can pay more.

Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 17, 2014, 02:31:00 PM
I'm just wondering how you gathered he was overcharged simply from getting a burger and fries.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 17, 2014, 02:33:22 PM
Besides, why should someone care if they were "overcharged"? :unsure:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Maximus on September 17, 2014, 02:33:49 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:31:00 PM
I'm just wondering how you gathered he was overcharged simply from getting a burger and fries.
That is far from the most fantastic leap of logic going on.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:39:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:31:00 PM
I'm just wondering how you gathered he was overcharged simply from getting a burger and fries.

He's a tourist, doesn't know the area, it's Paris where everything is expensive (even normal prices are seen as overcharging), a tourist destination and last but not least that's a Parisian thing to despise tourists.  :frog:
A cliché if you will, like the rude garçon etc.
Get it?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 17, 2014, 02:43:46 PM
You were offended by his declaration that he had a hamburger in Paris and decided to troll him in response...

I am of course offended by your taking offense. Hamburgers are awesome. :mad:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:47:11 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:43:46 PM
You were offended by his declaration that he had a hamburger in Paris and decided to troll him in response...

Why should I? That's a very bobo and hipster thing to do so that fits perfectly Martinus. :)

Quote
I am of course offended by your taking offense. Hamburgers are awesome. :mad:

Calm down. Never said that. Or, à la Languish, strawman!
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:49:10 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:39:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:31:00 PM
I'm just wondering how you gathered he was overcharged simply from getting a burger and fries.

He's a tourist, doesn't know the area, it's Paris where everything is expensive (even normal prices are seen as overcharging), a tourist destination and last but not least that's a Parisian thing to despise tourists.  :frog:
A cliché if you will, like the rude garçon etc.
Get it?

I wasn't a tourist. I was there on business. We were taken to a dinner by the client.  :huh:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:49:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 11:22:21 AM
This is, of course, really inconvenient since I hate the French so much...:lmfao:

Damn ingrate.  They give you a job and pay your salary and you respond with bigoted hatred.  The racist perfidy of you Anglos never ceases to disgust me.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:50:07 PM
What is the big deal about having a hamburger and fries in Paris?  I certainly saw plenty of French people doing that.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:50:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:50:07 PM
What is the big deal about having a hamburger and fries in Paris?  I certainly saw plenty of French people doing that.

There is a lot of overreaction going on in this thread. This one is hardly the biggest. ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 17, 2014, 02:51:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:49:10 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:39:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:31:00 PM
I'm just wondering how you gathered he was overcharged simply from getting a burger and fries.

He's a tourist, doesn't know the area, it's Paris where everything is expensive (even normal prices are seen as overcharging), a tourist destination and last but not least that's a Parisian thing to despise tourists.  :frog:
A cliché if you will, like the rude garçon etc.
Get it?

I wasn't a tourist. I was there on business. We were taken to a dinner by the client.  :huh:

Well tourist/business don't have to be separate things.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:53:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:50:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:50:07 PM
What is the big deal about having a hamburger and fries in Paris?  I certainly saw plenty of French people doing that.

There is a lot of overreaction going on in this thread. This one is hardly the biggest. ;)

I just do not get why you told us that in the first place :P
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:53:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I checked.  The word for Whopper in Paris is Whopper.  Though they would say 'le Whopper'.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:54:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:53:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:50:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:50:07 PM
What is the big deal about having a hamburger and fries in Paris?  I certainly saw plenty of French people doing that.

There is a lot of overreaction going on in this thread. This one is hardly the biggest. ;)

I just do not get why you told us that in the first place :P

I wanted to troll Duque. :P
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I gotta confess that (notwithstanding having a burger at the restaurant later), the day I arrived, I had a meeting at 2 p.m. and was at the place around 1 p.m. so I went to look around for some place like Starbucks to grab a quick sandwich - but all the places I could find (the office was at Avenue de Friedland, just next to Arc de Triomphe) were the sit-in places, where you had to order and wait for your order to come - which I had no time for. So I ended up at McDonald's.  :blush:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:59:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:53:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I checked.  The word for Whopper in Paris is Whopper.  Though they would say 'le Whopper'.

You're lucky (sort of), Burger King is back in Paris. People say that it's still better than Mc Donald's or Quick.
People are more likely to use "un" when ordering "je voudrais un ..."

Peter
That would be "un Royal Cheese" there. :)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Barrister on September 17, 2014, 03:00:59 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I gotta confess that (notwithstanding having a burger at the restaurant later), the day I arrived, I had a meeting at 2 p.m. and was at the place around 1 p.m. so I went to look around for some place like Starbucks to grab a quick sandwich - but all the places I could find (the office was at Avenue de Friedland, just next to Arc de Triomphe) were the sit-in places, where you had to order and wait for your order to come - which I had no time for. So I ended up at McDonald's.  :blush:

There is something to be said for hitting up a McDonalds when on a foreign trip.  You're in a rush, you don't know the area, and you have to get something to eat fairly quickly.  You see the golden arches and you have some reassurance about what you're getting.

Besides, McDonalds does vary their menu from country to country so you can still get a faint echo of local cuisine if you want.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:02:07 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:59:36 PM
People are more likely to use "un" when ordering "je voudrais un ..."

Well of course nobody would order 'I would like the Whopper'.  You have to use the right article -_-
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 17, 2014, 03:02:53 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:59:36 PM
Peter
That would be "un Royal Cheese" there. :)

Not according to Vincent Vega.  ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:02:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I gotta confess that (notwithstanding having a burger at the restaurant later), the day I arrived, I had a meeting at 2 p.m. and was at the place around 1 p.m. so I went to look around for some place like Starbucks to grab a quick sandwich - but all the places I could find (the office was at Avenue de Friedland, just next to Arc de Triomphe) were the sit-in places, where you had to order and wait for your order to come - which I had no time for. So I ended up at McDonald's.  :blush:

Fast Food places were invented just for this important social function.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:03:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 17, 2014, 03:00:59 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I gotta confess that (notwithstanding having a burger at the restaurant later), the day I arrived, I had a meeting at 2 p.m. and was at the place around 1 p.m. so I went to look around for some place like Starbucks to grab a quick sandwich - but all the places I could find (the office was at Avenue de Friedland, just next to Arc de Triomphe) were the sit-in places, where you had to order and wait for your order to come - which I had no time for. So I ended up at McDonald's.  :blush:

There is something to be said for hitting up a McDonalds when on a foreign trip.  You're in a rush, you don't know the area, and you have to get something to eat fairly quickly.  You see the golden arches and you have some reassurance about what you're getting.

Besides, McDonalds does vary their menu from country to country so you can still get a faint echo of local cuisine if you want.

Yeah. Same for the likes of Starbucks or Cafe Nero. Globalisation has its pluses.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:03:55 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I gotta confess that (notwithstanding having a burger at the restaurant later), the day I arrived, I had a meeting at 2 p.m. and was at the place around 1 p.m. so I went to look around for some place like Starbucks to grab a quick sandwich - but all the places I could find (the office was at Avenue de Friedland, just next to Arc de Triomphe) were the sit-in places, where you had to order and wait for your order to come - which I had no time for. So I ended up at McDonald's.  :blush:

:lmfao:

So much for Martinus' expensive and refined tastes... How cheap of you, again.
What's next? A kebab place?  :lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 17, 2014, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:59:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:53:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I checked.  The word for Whopper in Paris is Whopper.  Though they would say 'le Whopper'.

You're lucky (sort of), Burger King is back in Paris. People say that it's still better than Mc Donald's or Quick.
People are more likely to use "un" when ordering "je voudrais un ..."

Peter
That would be "un Royal Cheese" there. :)

Do people typically lead with "je voudrais"? I had been practicing some basic French and had a fri...acquaintance is probably better term, note to me that I was wasting time as most people wouldn't order so formally. :unsure:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:06:14 PM
When you have a meeting in less than an hour there is no time for refined tastes.  That can wait until dinner  :P
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:07:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:06:14 PM
When you have a meeting in less than an hour there is no time for refined tastes.  That can wait until dinner  :P

The French will find time for it!   :contract:  :frog:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:08:23 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 17, 2014, 03:05:59 PM
Do people typically lead with "je voudrais"?

Well you usually say 'salut' first or something.  Huh...granted it has been a long time but I didn't think there was anything formal about 'je voudrais'.  I used it to order everything IIRC.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:09:24 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:07:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:06:14 PM
When you have a meeting in less than an hour there is no time for refined tastes.  That can wait until dinner  :P

The French will find time for it!   :contract:  :frog:

So, by how many percentage points did the French economy grow over the last 5 years, again? :P
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:09:24 PM
So, by how many percentage points did the French economy grow over the last 5 years, again? :P

So...clearly all that money going to the restaurant industry should have been invested elsewhere?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:10:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 17, 2014, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:59:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:53:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I checked.  The word for Whopper in Paris is Whopper.  Though they would say 'le Whopper'.

You're lucky (sort of), Burger King is back in Paris. People say that it's still better than Mc Donald's or Quick.
People are more likely to use "un" when ordering "je voudrais un ..."

Peter
That would be "un Royal Cheese" there. :)

Do people typically lead with "je voudrais"? I had been practicing some basic French and had a fri...acquaintance is probably better term, note to me that I was wasting time as most people wouldn't order so formally. :unsure:

When I lived in Brussels, I tried at first to order everything in French but they would always switch to English in response. So I just order in English anywhere I go, Brussels or Paris, now.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:11:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:09:24 PM
So, by how many percentage points did the French economy grow over the last 5 years, again? :P

So...clearly all that money going to the restaurant industry should have been invested elsewhere?

I think it's more the question of an attitude. If you always find time to have a 2 hour lunch, no matter other commitments, you get less stuff done.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:14:54 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:11:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:09:24 PM
So, by how many percentage points did the French economy grow over the last 5 years, again? :P

So...clearly all that money going to the restaurant industry should have been invested elsewhere?

I think it's more the question of an attitude. If you always find time to have a 2 hour lunch, no matter other commitments, you get less stuff done.

In my experience working there they were pretty productive workers and I usually got excellent service wherever I went.  Their workers are typically considered pretty productive.  I think it has more to do with how their government manages their economy than a fault of workforce.  I mean yeah they are first worlders so have a first world shitty entitled attitude but certainly no worse than I see over here.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:15:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 17, 2014, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:59:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 02:53:43 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
One day I must go to Paris and order a Royale with Cheese. Even though I'm not keen on McDonalds.

I checked.  The word for Whopper in Paris is Whopper.  Though they would say 'le Whopper'.

You're lucky (sort of), Burger King is back in Paris. People say that it's still better than Mc Donald's or Quick.
People are more likely to use "un" when ordering "je voudrais un ..."

Peter
That would be "un Royal Cheese" there. :)

Do people typically lead with "je voudrais"? I had been practicing some basic French and had a fri...acquaintance is probably better term, note to me that I was wasting time as most people wouldn't order so formally. :unsure:

Formal way, seldom used would "Bonjour, auriez-vous l'obligeance de m'apporter (..)"  ;)
Proper way would be "Bonjour, je voudrais..."

So that's not formal, just common courtesy. If in a restaurant, they are more likely to use it than say a fast-food joint where it will be, at best, "un menu XYZ s'il vous plaît" or "je prendrai(s) un(e) XYZ s'il vous plaît". The " Bonjour, un(e) XYZ s'il vous plaît" works at cafés too.

edit: The use of conditionnel (with the s ending) instead of future (without the s ending) makes it more polite, but most people do not make the distinction (phonetical) anymore sadly.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:14:54 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:11:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:09:24 PM
So, by how many percentage points did the French economy grow over the last 5 years, again? :P

So...clearly all that money going to the restaurant industry should have been invested elsewhere?

I think it's more the question of an attitude. If you always find time to have a 2 hour lunch, no matter other commitments, you get less stuff done.

In my experience working there they were pretty productive workers and I usually got excellent service wherever I went.  Their workers are typically considered pretty productive.  I think it has more to do with how their government manages their economy than a fault of workforce.  I mean yeah they are first worlders so have a first world shitty entitled attitude but certainly no worse than I see over here.

Your francophilia keeps preventing me from successfully trolling Duque.  :secret:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 03:02:53 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 02:59:36 PM
Peter
That would be "un Royal Cheese" there. :)

Not according to Vincent Vega.  ;)

He was in Amsterdam, not Paris (no legal pot there).  :contract: ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:20:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:10:52 PM

When I lived in Brussels, I tried at first to order everything in French but they would always switch to English in response. So I just order in English anywhere I go, Brussels or Paris, now.

Speaking of Belgians a Flemish professor came in my power course today and gave us a lecture on the state of the European Power grid and all the problems integrating wind and other renewables.  He said he did not have time to make a separate presentation so he just used the slides he uses to teach his class at KU Leuven.  They were almost entirely in English there were like two dutch phrases in the whole thing.  So...Engineering gets taught in English in Flanders?  Is that normal?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 17, 2014, 03:21:40 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:15:24 PM
Formal way, seldom used would "Bonjour, auriez-vous l'obligeance de m'apporter (..)"  ;)
Proper way would be "Bonjour, je voudrais..."

So that's not formal, just common courtesy. If in a restaurant, they are more likely to use it than say a fast-food joint where it will be, at best, "un menu XYZ s'il vous plaît" or "je prendrais un(e) XYZ s'il vous plaît". The " Bonjour, un(e) XYZ s'il vous plaît" works at cafés too.

Thanks. Sorry, I shouldn't have said formally but basically what I was told was something similar to how "I would like to have..." isn't necessarily the most common way to order in English. If I think on it, I either just say the name of what I want, say "I'll have" or "Can I have".
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:22:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:17:01 PM
Your francophilia keeps preventing me from successfully trolling Duque.  :secret:

Sorry :blush:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:25:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:20:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:10:52 PM

When I lived in Brussels, I tried at first to order everything in French but they would always switch to English in response. So I just order in English anywhere I go, Brussels or Paris, now.

Speaking of Belgians a Flemish professor came in my power course today and gave us a lecture on the state of the European Power grid and all the problems integrating wind and other renewables.  He said he did not have time to make a separate presentation so he just used the slides he uses to teach his class at KU Leuven.  They were almost entirely in English there were like two dutch phrases in the whole thing.  So...Engineering gets taught in English in Flanders?  Is that normal?

I wouldn't be surprised. I think in the Netherlands and Sweden, local tv stations sometimes just broadcast English movies in the original version (without subtitles), as the English language knowledge is so widespread. I had classes in English back at the uni (admittedly, in English law) and I graduated 15 years ago so this must have progressed since.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
:yes: English is the language of science, engineering, business etc. Shocking, I know.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:30:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
:yes: English is the language of science, engineering, business etc. Shocking, I know.

You are just a racist, bitter about Iraq war.  :homestar:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:33:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 17, 2014, 03:22:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:17:01 PM
Your francophilia keeps preventing me from successfully trolling Duque.  :secret:

Sorry :blush:

Don't be so hard on yourself, Martinus' trolling was sub-par, by his standards. (added before he gets mad at me).
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 17, 2014, 03:33:59 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
He was in Amsterdam, not Paris (no legal pot there).  :contract: ;)

He lived in Amsterdam. For three years. Naturally, he visited Paris.  :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pkq_eBHXJ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pkq_eBHXJ4)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:38:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:30:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
:yes: English is the language of science, engineering, business etc. Shocking, I know.

You are just a racist, bitter about Iraq war.  :homestar:

Is this really relevant?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Malthus on September 17, 2014, 03:39:57 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:30:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
:yes: English is the language of science, engineering, business etc. Shocking, I know.

You are just a racist, bitter about Iraq war.  :homestar:

The birth of a new Languish meme is a beautiful thing.  :cry:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 17, 2014, 03:40:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:38:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:30:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
:yes: English is the language of science, engineering, business etc. Shocking, I know.

You are just a racist, bitter about Iraq war.  :homestar:

Is this really relevant?

How could it not be relevant?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:40:52 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 17, 2014, 03:33:59 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 17, 2014, 03:19:51 PM
He was in Amsterdam, not Paris (no legal pot there).  :contract: ;)

He lived in Amsterdam. For three years. Naturally, he visited Paris.  :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pkq_eBHXJ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pkq_eBHXJ4)

Tarantino deceived you!  :thumbsdown:

http://www.mcdonalds.fr/produits/sandwichs/le-royal-cheese (http://www.mcdonalds.fr/produits/sandwichs/le-royal-cheese)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 17, 2014, 03:40:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:38:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:30:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
:yes: English is the language of science, engineering, business etc. Shocking, I know.

You are just a racist, bitter about Iraq war.  :homestar:

Is this really relevant?

How could it not be relevant?

Bitch, be cool.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 17, 2014, 03:41:42 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 17, 2014, 03:40:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:38:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 03:30:46 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 17, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
:yes: English is the language of science, engineering, business etc. Shocking, I know.

You are just a racist, bitter about Iraq war.  :homestar:

Is this really relevant?

How could it not be relevant?

Bitch, be cool.

I ain't your bitch. :angry:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on September 17, 2014, 05:50:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 17, 2014, 12:50:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 16, 2014, 10:55:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 16, 2014, 10:06:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2014, 02:50:44 AM
If I am in a company of people where everybody speaks one language and then only some of those present also speak another language, I just find it impolite to start talking in the language not everyone in the group understands - this goes both for speaking Polish in an English speaking group where not everyone understands Polish, and vice versa.
So, you infringe on people's individual rights.  How intolerant of you.

:huh:

I was wondering about this too. Viper is so ridiculous, it is not clear when he is serious or sarcastic.  :lol:
I was half joking, but you want to regulate private conversations that does not concern you.  That beyond silly.
Can't attach much credibility to anything you say when you hold that kind of view.

Honestly, in a casual conversation, if two people want to speak Russian to each another while another group uses English or French, I don't care at all.

If it's a business meeting, than things are entirely different then. French should be the language of choice in Quebec, for the working environment, english speakers should not imposed their ways on us, simple.

There's a big difference in using english for everything when there's one anglo in the group (the reverse would never happen) and communicating with other branches of your company outside the province, or talking to clients.

If you guys can't understand this basic difference, then there's nothing more for me to say.  You find it silly I want a french working place in a state where the majority of the people are french speakers and I find it silly that you want to regulate casual conversation because you find them rude if you don't all speak the same language.

I'm not paranoid enough to believe every foreign language conversation is about me.   :huh:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 06:13:04 PM
So in your crazy worldview, saying something is not polite is equivalent to a desire to regulate something, kind of like how not being able to offer French equally at all times is the same as it being English 100% of the time?

I agree that there really isn't anything more for you to say - you should go back to BERKUT IS RACIST! It was a much more coherent position that this.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: grumbler on September 17, 2014, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 10:55:48 AM
Are you new here? Have you not interacted with Viper before?
:face:  You are one of the reasons I am pretty cool with French Canada doing pretty much what they think they should do.  I have a sneaking suspicion that you are more representative than M. Incomprehensible and M. Raging Asshole.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on September 17, 2014, 06:29:19 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 17, 2014, 05:50:28 PM
You find it silly I want a french working place in a state where the majority of the people are french speakers

I'd think it should be up to the workplace as long as whatever was decided, wasn't decided out of discriminatory reasons.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on September 17, 2014, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 06:13:04 PM
So in your crazy worldview, saying something is not polite is equivalent to a desire to regulate something, kind of like how not being able to offer French equally at all times is the same as it being English 100% of the time?

I agree that there really isn't anything more for you to say - you should go back to BERKUT IS RACIST! It was a much more coherent position that this.


You definitely are an imbecile.

Viper do stop allowing yourself to be dragged down to his level - it's unsightly!  I cannot for the life of me understand what you're trying to accomplish by arguing with these conceited mules.



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on September 17, 2014, 06:52:02 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 17, 2014, 06:34:34 PM
...these conceited mules.

Excellent turn of phrase :hug:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 09:04:45 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 17, 2014, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 17, 2014, 06:13:04 PM
So in your crazy worldview, saying something is not polite is equivalent to a desire to regulate something, kind of like how not being able to offer French equally at all times is the same as it being English 100% of the time?

I agree that there really isn't anything more for you to say - you should go back to BERKUT IS RACIST! It was a much more coherent position that this.


You definitely are an imbecile.

Viper do stop allowing yourself to be dragged down to his level - it's unsightly!  I cannot for the life of me understand what you're trying to accomplish by arguing with these conceited mules.



G.


Viper likes to argue and our language issue brings out the best in him.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 09:05:43 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 17, 2014, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 17, 2014, 10:55:48 AM
Are you new here? Have you not interacted with Viper before?
:face:  You are one of the reasons I am pretty cool with French Canada doing pretty much what they think they should do.  I have a sneaking suspicion that you are more representative than M. Incomprehensible and M. Raging Asshole.

Thanks, I think.  :)
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: crazy canuck on October 01, 2014, 03:01:12 PM
The fact that French immersion classes are heavily oversubscribed in this Province is in the news again. 
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on October 01, 2014, 08:01:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 01, 2014, 03:01:12 PM
The fact that French immersion classes are heavily oversubscribed in this Province is in the news again. 
because of inadequate public funding resulting in cuts to public education services.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on October 01, 2014, 08:08:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 17, 2014, 06:29:19 PM
I'd think it should be up to the workplace as long as whatever was decided, wasn't decided out of discriminatory reasons.
It's not like bilinguism is forbidden.  But asking for bilinguism everywhere is discriminatory.  Of course, if the majority of us would be bilingual, it wouldn't be a problem, but we're not there yet.

But having a workspace in your own language is nice.  If I'm to move in the US, I'll expect to work in english.  I doubt Berkut's employer is forcing the employees to use French exlusively from lower management and up.  Yet it was the norm in Quebec, before language laws, that any management position, from foreman and up, would be in english for most of the bigger corporations.

In these situations, you have a vicious circle.  People are unable to get a decent job if they don't speak english perfectly and they are unable to pursue higher education to learn english & the required skills if they are unable to get a decent job.  You end up with a lower working class significantly poorer than the foreign cultural elite and you severly restrict class mobility.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on October 01, 2014, 08:17:36 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 01, 2014, 08:01:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 01, 2014, 03:01:12 PM
The fact that French immersion classes are heavily oversubscribed in this Province is in the news again. 
because of inadequate public funding resulting in cuts to public education services.

I'm surprised to hear you make a Teachers' Union argument like that.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: crazy canuck on October 01, 2014, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 01, 2014, 08:01:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 01, 2014, 03:01:12 PM
The fact that French immersion classes are heavily oversubscribed in this Province is in the news again. 
because of inadequate public funding resulting in cuts to public education services.

Rather it is because of a lack of qualified french teachers.  At a time when enrolment in the public school system is shrinking (mainly because of demographics) enrolment in french immersion has increased by 14%.  The system just cant keep up with the demand.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grey Fox on October 01, 2014, 09:21:17 PM
All the Chinese kids are signing up to become government employees?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on October 01, 2014, 09:27:43 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 01, 2014, 08:08:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 17, 2014, 06:29:19 PM
I'd think it should be up to the workplace as long as whatever was decided, wasn't decided out of discriminatory reasons.
It's not like bilinguism is forbidden.  But asking for bilinguism everywhere is discriminatory. 

Does that include insisting that, say, all officers in the Canadian military be bilingual, rather than just speaking English?

Or insisting that all federal employees be bilingual?

Or is it only discriminatory to ask French speakers to be bilingual, but is actually discriminatory to NOT ask English speakers to be bilingual in those positions?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Grallon on October 02, 2014, 06:05:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 01, 2014, 09:27:43 PM

...



Trying to stir shit again you bovine oaf?  <_<



G.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on October 02, 2014, 06:10:32 AM
Quote from: Grallon on October 02, 2014, 06:05:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 01, 2014, 09:27:43 PM

...



Trying to stir shit again you bovine oaf?  <_<



G.

Actually that'd be viper who responded to a comment I made several weeks ago.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Eddie Teach on October 02, 2014, 06:39:36 AM
Or CC for bumping the thread.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: crazy canuck on October 02, 2014, 12:02:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 02, 2014, 06:39:36 AM
Or CC for bumping the thread.

Why do you always blame me  :(
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on October 02, 2014, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 01, 2014, 09:27:43 PM
Does that include insisting that, say, all officers in the Canadian military be bilingual, rather than just speaking English?
Where do you get that?

Quote
Or insisting that all federal employees be bilingual?
Where do you get that?

Quote
Or is it only discriminatory to ask French speakers to be bilingual, but is actually discriminatory to NOT ask English speakers to be bilingual in those positions?
Where do you get that?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: garbon on October 02, 2014, 01:55:14 PM
:lol:
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on October 02, 2014, 01:56:08 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 01, 2014, 08:17:36 PM
I'm surprised to hear you make a Teachers' Union argument like that.
Honestly, I don't really care about internal BC politics, or internal Albertan or Ontarian politics, so long as they do not affect me.
But to point the increase in private French immersion class as a sign that tolerance toward the official bilinguism of this country is on the rise is, in my opinion, based on what I read on the subject, a misleading statement, it is an incomplete picture of the situation.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on October 02, 2014, 01:57:23 PM
I don't understand your question viper.

You said that insisting on bilingualism everywhere is discriminatory.

I was surprised by this, since previously you had claimed that insisting that federal employees and officers in the military be required to know French in addition to English was perfectly reasonable, even that NOT doing so would be discriminatory.

I am just trying to understand what seems to me to be two completely contradictory positions.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: viper37 on October 02, 2014, 03:13:41 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 02, 2014, 01:57:23 PM
I was surprised by this, since previously you had claimed that insisting that federal employees and officers in the military be required to know French in addition to English was perfectly reasonable, even that NOT doing so would be discriminatory.
You claim I insisted for "all federal employees" and "all officers".

Top government officials should be bilingual, elected or nominated.  And that goes for Quebec too, I hate to see a unilingual Premier and no cabinet minister should be unilingual, and most provincial government officials should be bilingual.

As for asking a corner store employee to be bilingual, I don't see why.  Requiring that a foreman be bilingual because the boss of the company refused to learn French is an absolute no.

The law requires that you justify the need for a bilingual position.  If you can't find a valid justification, it means that you don't really have one.

Quote
I am just trying to understand what seems to me to be two completely contradictory positions.
If French and English always had been equal in the country,  I'd have no problem.  They've been legally equal for less than 30 years.  They are still not factually equal.
I've linked the report before, you don't want to read it, it's your choice.  But there's a world between the law and the reality.  Soldiers aren't bilingual.  Officers a little more, but we're very far from the 100% that is supposedly required.  But I guess it's better to aim higher and miss it than aim delebirately lower than what you expect.
This is the reason why a 100% French regiment, the Royal 22e, or Van Doos was created in 1914.

Just as your country was built on the fear of British and Indians, mine was built on the fears of Americans.
To accomodate the French and avoid them joigning the Americans, certain concessions were made from official British policies.  Freedom of religion, freedom of language, mainly.  Religions doesn't mean much in Quebec nowadays, the times when French=Catholic are behind us.  Language still does have it's importance though.

I am of the opinion that if a law exist, it should be respected&enforced or repelled.  If you put a 50km/h speed limit on an highway but let everyone drive at 120km/h, you should change the signs instead of not enforcing the speed limit.  It's the same for bilinguism.  If Canadians find it too much of a burden to put French on an equal foot with English, than they should repel the official bilinguism language act.  Instead of constantly whining about it in editorials, columns and commentaries on news site.  If someone is outraged that our Prime Minister would adress the press in French, he should militate for repelling the official language act, not whining that Quebecers and French Canadians have too much rights.  Canada is either bilingual, or it is not. 
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Berkut on October 02, 2014, 03:30:08 PM
Fair enough - that is a reasonable explanation. Thanks.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on October 02, 2014, 03:47:34 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 02, 2014, 03:13:41 PMIf Canadians find it too much of a burden to put French on an equal foot with English, than they should repel the official bilinguism language act.  Instead of constantly whining about it in editorials, columns and commentaries on news site.  If someone is outraged that our Prime Minister would adress the press in French, he should militate for repelling the official language act, not whining that Quebecers and French Canadians have too much rights.  Canada is either bilingual, or it is not.

I agree with you on this, and I don't think we should repeal the bilingualism act. If someone is outraged that our Prime minster addresses the press in French, that someone is an idiot as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: crazy canuck on October 02, 2014, 03:58:11 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 02, 2014, 03:47:34 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 02, 2014, 03:13:41 PMIf Canadians find it too much of a burden to put French on an equal foot with English, than they should repel the official bilinguism language act.  Instead of constantly whining about it in editorials, columns and commentaries on news site.  If someone is outraged that our Prime Minister would adress the press in French, he should militate for repelling the official language act, not whining that Quebecers and French Canadians have too much rights.  Canada is either bilingual, or it is not.

I agree with you on this, and I don't think we should repeal the bilingualism act. If someone is outraged that our Prime minster addresses the press in French, that someone is an idiot as far as I'm concerned.

The premise of Viper's statement that is flawed is that the Act's intent is to "put French on an equal foot with English".  If that is what he thinks it is supposed to achieve then his frustration is understable because that is definitely not the purpose.  The Act only applies to Federal government services and areas of Federal regulation. Most people have limited contact with the Federal government.

For most of us the most signficant interaction is with the Provincial and Municipal levels.

Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on October 02, 2014, 04:01:29 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 02, 2014, 03:58:11 PM
The premise of Viper's statement that is flawed is that the Act's intent is to "put French on an equal foot with English".  If that is what he thinks it is supposed to achieve then his frustration is understable because that is definitely not the purpose.  The Act only applies to Federal government services and areas of Federal regulation. Most people have limited contact with the Federal government.

For most of us the most signficant interaction is with the Provincial and Municipal levels.

Sure, but you agree that someone being outraged about our PM addressing the press in French is a nitwit, right?
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: crazy canuck on October 02, 2014, 07:52:59 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 02, 2014, 04:01:29 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 02, 2014, 03:58:11 PM
The premise of Viper's statement that is flawed is that the Act's intent is to "put French on an equal foot with English".  If that is what he thinks it is supposed to achieve then his frustration is understable because that is definitely not the purpose.  The Act only applies to Federal government services and areas of Federal regulation. Most people have limited contact with the Federal government.

For most of us the most signficant interaction is with the Provincial and Municipal levels.

Sure, but you agree that someone being outraged about our PM addressing the press in French is a nitwit, right?

Sure, but that just proves that any given population will always have nitwits. 
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: Jacob on October 02, 2014, 07:58:00 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 02, 2014, 07:52:59 PM
Sure, but that just proves that any given population will always have nitwits.

Even the population of languish?  :o
Title: Re: Canadian Language Education Questions
Post by: crazy canuck on October 02, 2014, 08:00:13 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 02, 2014, 07:58:00 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 02, 2014, 07:52:59 PM
Sure, but that just proves that any given population will always have nitwits.

Even the population of languish?  :o

disproportionately so.