Canadian Language Education Questions

[Savonarola]

So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?

One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.

[Barrister]

You can also throw in there are some schools offering German or Spanish immersion, as well as schools offering Ukrainian immersion.

They should require a certain percentage of the students be Russian immersion fifth columnists for added realism.

Are these public schools which offer non-official language immersion?

Yes.

Huh - I just looked it up - there are also Arabic, Mandarin, ASL, and Hebrew bilingual programs.

Now what this means is that there is one school in the entire city with that program, and if you want your kid to attend they have to be bussed all over the place.  But they do exist.  (and of course French immersion is massive when compared to the other languages).

[Barrister]

So based on this thread it sounds like that in all students in Canada should have some familiarity with both official languages; is that a fair assessment?

One of the complaints put forth in the independence thread deals with the lack of bilingual speakers and services outside of Quebec.  If there was a separation, though, it seems likely that Canada would put less emphasis on bilingual education and leave Francophones even more restricted in their opportunities.

Depends what you mean familiarity.  I can't hold even a simple conversation in French, though I can identify a few words and very basic grammer.

[derspiess]

[HVC]

I had French from preschool (private) to grade 9. I started French in catholic school in grade 1, but I don't know if that's all of Ontario, or just the school board I was in. Unlike BB I used to be able to speak intelligible French, but much less so now. I could probably hold a grade 5 level conversation. It's been 15 years since my last French class, so I guess that's understandable.

What I found weird is that we learned Parisian French, not the French the speak in quebec.

[Malthus]

Problem is that if you don't actually use a language, you lose it quickly. Taking some classes in school is not enough.

Outside of Quebec, and a few other areas outside of Quebec, actual French speakers are a tiny minority in Canada. In Toronto, for example, there are almost exactly as many native speakers of Gujarati as there are native speakers of French - each form 1.1% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#Languages

In short, for many in the RoC, French tends to be useful if you travel, or want a Federal government job, but not for chatting with people around you.

[Berkut]

Interesting that despite the claims of strangulation and such, it is actually only the French who *demand* that certain population segments be forced into a particular language, regardless of their wishes otherwise.

That seems like the exact opposite of the complaints being made.

There's always private school. Enough with the hyperbole.

Wold you accept that argument if it was made in the other direction?

I suspect you would not - and really, your objection to hyperbole seems a little inconsistent.

[Savonarola]

Problem is that if you don't actually use a language, you lose it quickly. Taking some classes in school is not enough.

Outside of Quebec, and a few other areas outside of Quebec, actual French speakers are a tiny minority in Canada. In Toronto, for example, there are almost exactly as many native speakers of Gujarati as there are native speakers of French - each form 1.1% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#Languages

In short, for many in the RoC, French tends to be useful if you travel, or want a Federal government job, but not for chatting with people around you.

Okay, then is it fair to conclude that Viper's concerns about lack of speakers, services and opportunities for Francophones in English Canada are justified; despite the emphasis on French language education in the provinces?

[Jacob]

Okay, then is it fair to conclude that Viper's concerns about lack of speakers, services and opportunities for Francophones in English Canada are justified; despite the emphasis on French language education in the provinces?

Put like that, yes.

The fact is that for most Anglophones (but not all), French is something you're forced to take, that you don't really enjoy, and that you slowly forget once you leave school.

Outside of Quebec, the level of (non-Federal) services available in French is pretty much related to the number of Francophones there. So in New Brunswick or Francophone areas of Ontario, there's plenty of it; in the areas nearby there is some. But once you head into areas where there are few Francophones altogether, you're not going to to see much in the way of services.

If you think that you should be able to interact with your environment primarily in French across Canada, then you are going to feel short changed. The level of French education does not allow a Francophone Canadian that he'll be able to go to most places of business in the country and speak French.

[Berkut]

Okay, then is it fair to conclude that Viper's concerns about lack of speakers, services and opportunities for Francophones in English Canada are justified; despite the emphasis on French language education in the provinces?

Put like that, yes.

The fact is that for most Anglophones (but not all), French is something you're forced to take, that you don't really enjoy, and that you slowly forget once you leave school.

Outside of Quebec, the level of (non-Federal) services available in French is pretty much related to the number of Francophones there. So in New Brunswick or Francophone areas of Ontario, there's plenty of it; in the areas nearby there is some. But once you head into areas where there are few Francophones altogether, you're not going to to see much in the way of services.

If you think that you should be able to interact with your environment primarily in French across Canada, then you are going to feel short changed. The level of French education does not allow a Francophone Canadian that he'll be able to go to most places of business in the country and speak French.

What I don't get is the idea that an independent Quebec would make that better somehow - it quite obviously would make it much, much worse, since there wouldn't be really any reason for the Canadian government to put the excessive amount of focus on French it does now in an effort to placate the French Canadians.

So in an independent Quebec, French would be the (obviously) primary language (just like it is now) and the rest of Canada would have no reason to cater to French speakers other than whatever it is they do now for any language other than Enlgish, presumably based on the number of speakers in the area in question.

Which suggests to me that the goal of what the independence crowd wants is very much about who is speaking French in Quebec...or rather, who is not.

[Grallon]

...

Which suggests to me that the goal of what the independence crowd wants is very much about who is speaking French in Quebec...or rather, who is not.

As clueless as I expected you to be on the topic...  But I forget - according to Jacob only non Quebecers are authorities on the subject of Quebec and its independence movement... *shakes head*  What a ludicrous farce!

I'll tell you what would happen should we (finally) decide to leave this stinking federation - all current legal and constitutional protections & guarantees would be repealed faster than you can blink - and the remaining french minorities would be forced to assimilate so fast they wouldn't even have time to breathe.

I mean, we're still there and that's already their long term goal - it's been so since day one!  A token bilingualism while assimilation is encouraged on a daily basis.

WE are the only real bilingual citizens of this pretend bilingual federation.



G.

[Admiral Yi]

My impression is that most, if not all, anglophone residents of Quebec are bilingual.

[Grallon]

My impression is that most, if not all, anglophone residents of Quebec are bilingual.

It all depends on how you define 'bilingual'.  I work in an anglophone milieu and while it is true several of the younger crowd can speak french - it oscillates between atrocious to rudimentary to passable.  Of course there are exceptions - some of them are actually fluently bilingual - but those merely confirm the rule. 

But then again I'm only one flawlessly bilingual man that actually lives in Montreal.  How could I possibly know anything about these things when compared to such luminaries as (unilingual) people living in Toronto, Vancouver or the US - RIGHT? 



G.

[Admiral Yi]

Grallon, the way it works is you're supposed to wait until *after* someone insults you to take offense.

[Grey Fox]

My impression is that most, if not all, anglophone residents of Quebec are bilingual.

Not really no but if you restric to a group age, say 18-35, than your impression is fairly correct.