Canadian Language Education Questions

[Grallon]

These maggots are playing you Viper.  Do stop responding to them!

Come and join us already - rather than trying to make foreigners see what they are unable to see and understand what they are unable to understand.

I mean, if this crowd doesn't turn you into a staunch separatist I don't know what will!




G.

[viper37]

Well it is a bit hard to believe you when you speak so disdainfully of anglophones.

What have I done again?

Berkut has been calling me and people like me nazis since the beginning of the other thread.  Martinus and Raz are trolling as usual.  Should I keep answering nicely with flowers too?

Look, I did not insult anglophones, I did not speak disdainfully of anglophones.  I never made any comments regarding some form of French superiority (certainly as a joke sometimes, certainly never seriously).  But you guys keep seeing things that aren't there.  What can I say that will make you believe me?  Where you mugged for speaking English in Montreal?  Where people rude to you in Quebec city because you didn't speak french?

What's so hard to understand that we're not a bunch of neo-nazis?  I'm sure even Grallon is a nice fellow in person and you'de have fun spending an evening together chatting about canadian politics...

So, what can I do to prove the non existant?

[Berkut]

And many Canadians have trouble understanding that Quebec wants to keep its language and culture.

But the way you do that is by getting your future generations invested/interested/dare I say excited about your language and culture. Propping them up by artificial means like laws aren't going to matter much if people are uninterested.

Exactly. This is why I reject the notion that in a western liberal society people have the right to secede if they don't get their way. It is basically saying that if you cannot win in the court of public opinion, then let's just change the court to only include people who agree with me, so we can persecute the remainder who do not.

Which is exactly what is being proposed. The French culture is so valuable, that if we cannot get people to accept it voluntarily, no matter, let's just force it on them with the power of the state.

[Berkut]

Well it is a bit hard to believe you when you speak so disdainfully of anglophones.

What have I done again?

Berkut has been calling me and people like me nazis since the beginning of the other thread. 

that is simply a lie. I've never called you a nazi.

[viper37]

Come and join us already - rather than trying to make foreigners see what they are unable to see and understand what they are unable to understand.

Well, BB understands my position better now, I think.  And Malthus is slightly less hostile than 14 years ago.

Of course, trying to convince any of them that seperation is the best option for Quebec and Canada would be pointless, just as trying to convince you and I that the 1982 Constitution is the best thing invented since sliced bread

[garbon]

Well it is a bit hard to believe you when you speak so disdainfully of anglophones.

What have I done again?

Berkut has been calling me and people like me nazis since the beginning of the other thread.  Martinus and Raz are trolling as usual.  Should I keep answering nicely with flowers too?

Look, I did not insult anglophones, I did not speak disdainfully of anglophones.  I never made any comments regarding some form of French superiority (certainly as a joke sometimes, certainly never seriously).  But you guys keep seeing things that aren't there.  What can I say that will make you believe me?  Where you mugged for speaking English in Montreal?  Where people rude to you in Quebec city because you didn't speak french?

What's so hard to understand that we're not a bunch of neo-nazis?  I'm sure even Grallon is a nice fellow in person and you'de have fun spending an evening together chatting about canadian politics...

So, what can I do to prove the non existant?

In response to Berk's exchange with G that people speaking English should be able to do so in public and private, you said:

What if you want to pee, suddenly, in the middle of New York City.  No toilet near you.  Peeing is certainly an individual's right.  I guess you could relieve yourself in an alley, no problem at all?  It doesn't harm anyone, it only smells bad after a couple of hours.  Can't stop at some silly shit like a collective right to enjoy a good environment, can't wee?

Now, of course, I don't think you actually have negative perceptions of anglophones (unless you were quite the actor when we met ) but it does seem that you are propping up grallon's rather...intolerant position.

[Grallon]

that is simply a lie. I've never called you a nazi.

The idiot doesn't even realize what's he's done...  It fucking boggles the mind - how blinded these people can be!

Well... I should say I'm pretty convinced that Viper will come here with an explanation for your behavior... So yeah - there's worse that can boggle the mind - such as the apparent unending Fench-Canadian reservoir for charity towards those who abuse them.  Gods above and below!  Right here and there is the very reason why independence is necessary: to break that spell of submission!


G.

[Berkut]

You sure do love being a victim,

[Berkut]

Come and join us already - rather than trying to make foreigners see what they are unable to see and understand what they are unable to understand.

Well, BB understands my position better now, I think.  And Malthus is slightly less hostile than 14 years ago.

Of course, trying to convince any of them that seperation is the best option for Quebec and Canada would be pointless, just as trying to convince you and I that the 1982 Constitution is the best thing invented since sliced bread

I think you mistake people not agreeing with you with people not understanding you,

It could be they understand you and gallon fine, and they don't agree that limiting others freedom to protect your tribes perceived "identity" is what is best for anyone. Not even you,

[viper37]

But the way you do that is by getting your future generations invested/interested/dare I say excited about your language and culture. Propping them up by artificial means like laws aren't going to matter much if people are uninterested.

So, you believe in unequal competition.  Like in the thread about Tesla, where a state wants to forbid them to sell their cars directly to consumers, what would be the net effect, you think, over a few years?  People are going to drive a few hundred km to buy a Tesla from a salesman or they will turn toward other alternatives?
Is there free market in these conditions?
What if 10 years from now, because of such maket conditions a little everywhere, Tesla is on the brink of bankruptcy while GM, Ford & Chrysler have had their best decade.  Now, in 10 years, the states repel those laws, Tesla can finally sell directly to consumers.

What do you think happenned in this time frame?  Tesla was able to make its car attractive/interesting/daring to consumers?  Or more likely, the American car dealers have now occuppied most of the market, bridge the technological gap with Tesla and started their own direct-to-consumer sales?
Is it simply enough now for Tesla to survive than making it equal after discriminating for so many years?


That's the problem with language.  Just like an endangered species, if you don't do anything after over-hunting, it will be extinct anyway.

A language depends on critical mass.  All the more so in places where they use the argument of "insufficient" numbers to deny services to the minority.  It will simply keep going the extinction way.

Had things been always equal in Canada, there would be 2-3 provinces with a French majority.  And there would be no such things as language laws to protect French, most likely.

But this is not alt-history, it is reality.  French language and education were forbidden in most of Canada, English was necessary to advance to any decent position in Quebec for years and they only started to change in the 60s, with the advent of laws to protect French.

Yes, it is sad it has to be forced.  But it is necessary.  Just like it is sad that we need basic laws forbidding murders and thievery when everyone should simply refrain from harming others.  But we live in the real world, not some utopia.

[viper37]

that is simply a lie. I've never called you a nazi.

And you guys wonder why you get called nazis.

[viper37]

Exactly. This is why I reject the notion that in a western liberal society people have the right to secede if they don't get their way.

do individuals have the right to form an association of some kind or are they limited in their individual rights to enter collective agreements?

[Berkut]

I don't accept that there is some historical justification for current and future state mandated intolerance and discrimination.

[viper37]

Now, of course, I don't think you actually have negative perceptions of anglophones (unless you were quite the actor when we met ) but it does seem that you are propping up grallon's rather...intolerant position.

That's because you take Grallon's meaning too literally.  I don't think he'd slapp you for speaking english if you met him


And I'm not an actor, I suck at everything artistic

[Berkut]

that is simply a lie. I've never called you a nazi.

And you guys wonder why you get called nazis.

That is not calling you a nazi. That is pointing out that there is a reason other people have done so. It is not saying the reason is valid or fair.

In fact, the one time I did specifically mention nazis, I specifically said I did not think it was a reasonable label.