Canadian Language Education Questions

[Zoupa]

Interesting that despite the claims of strangulation and such, it is actually only the French who *demand* that certain population segments be forced into a particular language, regardless of their wishes otherwise.

That seems like the exact opposite of the complaints being made.

There's always private school. Enough with the hyperbole.

Wold you accept that argument if it was made in the other direction?

I suspect you would not - and really, your objection to hyperbole seems a little inconsistent.

If a province was unilingual anglophone, of course I would.

[Grallon]

You probably shouldn't use a statue representing the Nazi party as your avatar if you don't like being called a Nazi.

Whenever I read you I'm reminded of a monkey - monkeying it up to his handlers to prove them he's not a monkey.  Go away!  Choo!  Disappear.

Yes the picture is from one of the statue of the Nurnberg stadium built by the Nazis - and yet you do not even grasp its meaning.



G.

[Berkut]

But that doesn't really make sense. Even here in the US, we afford some support for non-English languages. I don't see why the remainder of Canada would not.

Let's just say that Canada - the Anglo portion of it - doesn't have the same confidence in itself that America has...  Plus we know them a great deal more than you people do....

I think it is the French speakers that lack confidence. They seem quite certain that this culture will die absent the states power to enforce its acceptance.

Which is really, do course, what this is all about.

Besides, do you deny B's charge that you'd want to clamp down / make French the language to speak in Quebec?

French *is* already the only official public language now - this would merely be reaffirmed and enforced. 

Why should it be enforced? If it is so great and swell, why do you need to use force to get people to speak French?

Speak whatever you like in your private homes and private institutions - but when you come out in public - you bloody well better be speaking french. 

Intolerant much?

Isn't this the very definition of individual rights?

Not even remotely. Individual rights apply in public as well as in private.

Unless you utterly reject the very notion of a french speaking public sphere of course...

What if you truly respect individual rights and hence think people should speak whatever they like, wherever they like?

And if the French culture and language is worthy of survival, it will do so and thrive. If not, oh well.

[viper37]

Besides, do you deny B's charge that you'd want to clamp down / make French the language to speak in Quebec?

He sees fairies where there are none.  He "suspects" things while ignoring how we came to that, and he refuses to learn about it.  What is it you want us to deny? 

Whatever we could tell you, would you even believe us?  I can't read the future, all I can do, is judge the PQ by its actions.  And so far, even when it could (having a majority), it has steadily refused to clamp down on English speaker's rights anymore than now.

Like all party, the PQ has its extremists.  They also have a great deal of morons and socialists, but that's another matter.

Extremists wants English forbidden.  Zero english.  No english on the phone when you call a business place in Quebec.  No "Hello" in store.  No public english education and no subsidies for private schools.

The PQ is no different than the GOP with its Tea Party, except Quebec's version of Tea Party is not the one calling the shots.  Doesn't prevent the party from doing stupid things to try and provoke crisis that they think would benefit them, but there are no neo-nazis in the top brass (nor the middle brass), despite what English canada's cartoons may reflect.

You'll find radical anglos and radical anti-immigrants in the voters for sure.  Just like the Conservative party of Canada attracts the neo-nazi vote and the anti-bilinguism crowd.  Doesn't mean they seek them on purpose.  Well, the PQ under Pauline Marois liked to cultivate extremism, as they thought it would be good for their vote.  They were wrong, I'm happy she's gone.  And I'm also happy this party is heading nowhere with the brainless candidates they still have.

[viper37]

What if you truly respect individual rights and hence think people should speak whatever they like, wherever they like?

And what if I like to speak French and not English?  Then I have no rights?

And if the French culture and language is worthy of survival, it will do so and thrive. If not, oh well.

So, there'd be no problem forbidding English education totally then.  Shutting down english hospitals&colleges too.  Forbidding the airing of english tv and radio channels, so we can use the bandwith space for more french channels

English is certainly a culture that is worthy of survival, no?  If not, oh well.

[garbon]

Besides, do you deny B's charge that you'd want to clamp down / make French the language to speak in Quebec?

French *is* already the only official public language now - this would merely be reaffirmed and enforced.  Speak whatever you like in your private homes and private institutions - but when you come out in public - you bloody well better be speaking french.  Isn't this the very definition of individual rights?

Unless you utterly reject the very notion of a french speaking public sphere of course...

G.

That sounds rather hostile to tourism. I'm glad that wasn't in place during my trips to Montreal and Quebec City.

[garbon]

But that doesn't really make sense. Even here in the US, we afford some support for non-English languages. I don't see why the remainder of Canada would not.

Let's just say that Canada - the Anglo portion of it - doesn't have the same confidence in itself that America has...  Plus we know them a great deal more than you people do....

Wait, I have to come back to this. Are you saying that Canada fears that if it doesn't stamp French out that English will lose its special place?

[viper37]

Not even remotely. Individual rights apply in public as well as in private.

You have an individual right to possess a firearm.  Maybe even carry it with you anywhere you want, I'm unsure of New York's (well, I'm unsure of any State's) regulations on conceal&carry.

Are you allowed to discharge your firearm anywhere you want?  It is your individual right, after all.  Shooting in the air, over a river, knowing what you do, it ain't terribly dangerous, the bullet will fall in the river.

What if you want to pee, suddenly, in the middle of New York City.  No toilet near you.  Peeing is certainly an individual's right.  I guess you could relieve yourself in an alley, no problem at all?  It doesn't harm anyone, it only smells bad after a couple of hours.  Can't stop at some silly shit like a collective right to enjoy a good environment, can't wee?

[garbon]

So, there'd be no problem forbidding English education totally then.  Shutting down english hospitals&colleges too.  Forbidding the airing of english tv and radio channels, so we can use the bandwith space for more french channels

English is certainly a culture that is worthy of survival, no?  If not, oh well.

Is Canada forbidding those things for French?

[garbon]

Can't stop at some silly shit like a collective right to enjoy a good environment, can't wee?

Did you just compare speaking English in public to peeing in public?

[garbon]

Whatever we could tell you, would you even believe us?

Well it is a bit hard to believe you when you speak so disdainfully of anglophones.

[viper37]

Wait, I have to come back to this. Are you saying that Canada fears that if it doesn't stamp French out that English will lose its special place?

That over time English would be a plurality and not a majority?  Hmm.  In the early times of the confederation, yes, certainly.
Today, not so much anymore.  It's just that now that the language is almost extinct in many places, they don't see the need to nurture it so it can come back. 

And many Canadians have trouble understanding that Quebec wants to keep its language and culture.  From a country that has constantly feared American invasion, first military, now culturally, that is funny, in a way.

[viper37]

Did you just compare speaking English in public to peeing in public?

Well, I'm sure even Grallon wouldn't mind you spoke to yourself in English while walking down the street...

But the point is, you usually don't speak english alone.  It requires someone to respond to you. Wich means, one of the two is forced to use the other's language.  Wich right should preced the other?  You individual right to speak english or my individual right to speak french?

[Berkut]

What if you truly respect individual rights and hence think people should speak whatever they like, wherever they like?

And what if I like to speak French and not English?  Then I have no rights?

Then of course you have the right to speak French.

And if the French culture and language is worthy of survival, it will do so and thrive. If not, oh well.

So, there'd be no problem forbidding English education totally then.  Shutting down english hospitals&colleges too.  Forbidding the airing of english tv and radio channels, so we can use the bandwith space for more french channels

That would be a terrible thing to do. Of course, nobody is forbidding French education, so the parallel is fictional. Not allowing you to deny others the freedom you demand for yourself is not a denial of your rights.

English is certainly a culture that is worthy of survival, no?  If not, oh well.

Exactly. So let people do what they want, and don't pass any laws around any of it outside what is necessary for the government itself to function.

Nothing wrong with Quebec having French as the primary language, and the language of government. But you don't need to force people to use it, and if there are significant non French speakers you should be as tolerant of them in Quebec as you would expect people outside Quebec to be tolerant of the French speakers, within reason.

The problem though is that I suspect what is demographically true is that if you did that, over the long run French speaking would decline, and that is what you are really fighting. You want the power of the state to try to fight that demographic reality.

[garbon]

And many Canadians have trouble understanding that Quebec wants to keep its language and culture.

But the way you do that is by getting your future generations invested/interested/dare I say excited about your language and culture. Propping them up by artificial means like laws aren't going to matter much if people are uninterested.