Languish.org

Quote from: Caliga on February 12, 2013, 12:01:51 PM
I'll throw a prediction out there:  Norberto Rivera Carrera.  He's "young", he's from Latin America (the Primate of Mexico, Archbishop of Mexico City), and he's a reliable conservative.

Quote from: alfred russel on February 12, 2013, 12:25:42 PM
I saw him on TV a few years ago and the Mexican I was with commented that the guy had delusions of being pope and was way too conservative/bigoted.

Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2013, 12:30:08 PM
I will throw all my considerable influence behind the Archbishop of San Antonio Gustavo García-Siller.  Clearly being assigned this position in the most important province in the Catholic world means he is being prepared for Pope-hood.

Quote from: Caliga on February 12, 2013, 12:36:43 PM

Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2013, 12:30:08 PM
I will throw all my considerable influence behind the Archbishop of San Antonio Gustavo García-Siller.  Clearly being assigned this position in the most important province in the Catholic world means he is being prepared for Pope-hood.

Sorry, he's merely a child of 56. :(

Also, apparently not a Cardinal, but as I understand it you don't *have* to be a Cardinal to be elected Pope.

Quote from: Syt on February 12, 2013, 01:12:15 PM

Quote from: Caliga on February 12, 2013, 12:36:43 PM

Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2013, 12:30:08 PM
I will throw all my considerable influence behind the Archbishop of San Antonio Gustavo García-Siller.  Clearly being assigned this position in the most important province in the Catholic world means he is being prepared for Pope-hood.

Sorry, he's merely a child of 56. :(

Also, apparently not a Cardinal, but as I understand it you don't *have* to be a Cardinal to be elected Pope.

I think the only official qualification is "be Catholic".

Quote from: Josephus on February 12, 2013, 01:17:43 PM

Quote from: Syt on February 12, 2013, 01:12:15 PM

Quote from: Caliga on February 12, 2013, 12:36:43 PM

Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2013, 12:30:08 PM
I will throw all my considerable influence behind the Archbishop of San Antonio Gustavo García-Siller.  Clearly being assigned this position in the most important province in the Catholic world means he is being prepared for Pope-hood.

Sorry, he's merely a child of 56. :(

Also, apparently not a Cardinal, but as I understand it you don't *have* to be a Cardinal to be elected Pope.

I think the only official qualification is "be Catholic".

I think you have to be a bishop.

Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2013, 11:51:53 AM
So, since the other thread got derailed by Viking Contra Mundum, let's start some predicitions about the successor of B16.

Sheilbh, CdM, other catholics, any thoughts?

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 12, 2013, 01:56:50 PM
It's supposed to be an Italian this time, right? Peter the Roman?

Quote from: mongers on February 12, 2013, 04:27:32 PM
Martinus with Colonel Mustard in the library with the candle stick.

edit:
Oops, my bad, for some reason I thought this was about cluedo.

Though it would certainly be more entertaining if a real life Borgia was standing this time.

Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2013, 12:30:08 PM
I will throw all my considerable influence behind the Archbishop of San Antonio Gustavo García-Siller.  Clearly being assigned this position in the most important province in the Catholic world means he is being prepared for Pope-hood.

Quote from: Caliga on February 13, 2013, 10:21:59 AM
This thread is a letdown.  Come on bitches, let's see your predictions. :mad:

Quote from: Caliga on February 13, 2013, 03:10:04 PM
I've heard that the Archbishop of New York is considered a serious contender, too.  But given how ROTW hates America, it's hard to imagine an American getting elected Pope. :hmm:

Quote from: Zanza on February 13, 2013, 03:11:47 PM
It doesn't matter what the ROTW thinks. It's a grand total of 118 old men that matter, who are most likely not representative of the world at large.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 13, 2013, 03:19:17 PM
Maybe a boneheaded question, but they do have to pick a member of the Conclave right?

Quote from: Caliga on February 13, 2013, 03:49:28 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 13, 2013, 03:19:17 PM
Maybe a boneheaded question, but they do have to pick a member of the Conclave right?

They don't have to, but they've done that for the last 600 or so years IIRC.  I think even the ballots they use are preprinted with something along the lines of "I elect Cardinal _____________ to be the next Pope."

Quote from: Valmy on February 13, 2013, 03:29:52 PM

Quote from: Zanza on February 13, 2013, 03:11:47 PM
It doesn't matter what the ROTW thinks. It's a grand total of 118 old men that matter, who are most likely not representative of the world at large.

Except the vast majority of those old men come from the ROTW.

Quote from: Zanza on February 13, 2013, 04:12:35 PM
Which part of "most likely not representative" didn't you understand?

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 13, 2013, 03:19:17 PM
Maybe a boneheaded question, but they do have to pick a member of the Conclave right?

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 13, 2013, 05:58:11 PM
I wonder if they'd elect Jesus Christ if he came back.  :P

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 13, 2013, 05:58:11 PM
I wonder if they'd elect Jesus Christ if he came back.  :P

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2013, 08:12:23 PM
I'm still sticking to my Austrian horse in the race.

Quote from: Syt on February 15, 2013, 03:37:29 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2013, 08:12:23 PM
I'm still sticking to my Austrian horse in the race.

It would be great for the conspiracy nuts, because his full name is: Christoph Maria Michael Hugo Damian Peter Adalbert Schönborn

Quote from: Viking on February 15, 2013, 03:41:34 AM

Quote from: Syt on February 15, 2013, 03:37:29 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2013, 08:12:23 PM
I'm still sticking to my Austrian horse in the race.

It would be great for the conspiracy nuts, because his full name is: Christoph Maria Michael Hugo Damian Peter Adalbert Schönborn

I think you missed the more relevant name here.... fyp

QuoteIn the extreme persecution of the Holy Roman Church, there will sit.

Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end.

Quote from: Tamas on February 15, 2013, 04:43:15 AM
our nazis are in outrage because the media considers our cardinal a potential winner.

Why is it so bad? He has jews in his family line, and regularly eats at a jewish restaurant.

Hillarious  :lol:

Quote from: Martinus on February 15, 2013, 05:32:25 AM
To Syt:

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2013, 08:12:23 PM
I'm still sticking to my Austrian horse in the race.

Quote from: Viking on February 15, 2013, 03:41:34 AM

Quote from: Syt on February 15, 2013, 03:37:29 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2013, 08:12:23 PM
I'm still sticking to my Austrian horse in the race.

It would be great for the conspiracy nuts, because his full name is: Christoph Maria Michael Hugo Damian Peter Adalbert Schönborn

I think you missed the more relevant name here.... fyp

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 11, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
Edit: Incidentally on O'Malley I think he'll get a lot of votes in the first round. Normally the Cardinals like to vote for undoubtedly holy candidates, who've no chance of winning, in the first round. For example I think in 1978 Basil Hume (another religious) did very well in the first vote.

Quote from: Caliga on March 12, 2013, 03:28:53 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 11, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
Edit: Incidentally on O'Malley I think he'll get a lot of votes in the first round. Normally the Cardinals like to vote for undoubtedly holy candidates, who've no chance of winning, in the first round. For example I think in 1978 Basil Hume (another religious) did very well in the first vote.

:hmm: Aren't they all... religious?  I'm not sure how you could get more religious than a Roman Catholic Cardinal. :huh:

Quote from: Caliga on March 12, 2013, 03:28:53 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 11, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
Edit: Incidentally on O'Malley I think he'll get a lot of votes in the first round. Normally the Cardinals like to vote for undoubtedly holy candidates, who've no chance of winning, in the first round. For example I think in 1978 Basil Hume (another religious) did very well in the first vote.

:hmm: Aren't they all... religious?  I'm not sure how you could get more religious than a Roman Catholic Cardinal. :huh:

Quote from: Caliga on March 12, 2013, 03:28:53 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 11, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
Edit: Incidentally on O'Malley I think he'll get a lot of votes in the first round. Normally the Cardinals like to vote for undoubtedly holy candidates, who've no chance of winning, in the first round. For example I think in 1978 Basil Hume (another religious) did very well in the first vote.

:hmm: Aren't they all... religious?  I'm not sure how you could get more religious than a Roman Catholic Cardinal. :huh:

QuoteThe peculiar dynamics of Conclave 2013
George Weigel ABC Religion and Ethics Updated 13 Mar 2013 (First posted 12 Mar 2013)

Alejandro Bermudez, capo of the Catholic News Agency and a shrewd observer of ecclesiastical affairs, told me something during the 2005 conclave that I've tried to remember. Every conclave, he said, is a unique microculture and you can't predict what will happen within it simply by reading the pre-conclave tea leaves. Things happen inside conclaves, away from the world and the buzz, that can shape papal elections - and pontificates - in surprising ways.

History bears that out. Let me point to two examples that might have some relevance to the conclave of 2013.

The conclave that elected of John XXIII in 1958 was wide-open, with some cardinals wanting to extend, so to speak, both the policy and the style of Pius XII, and others wanting to sweep out the rooms of the Apostolic Palace, let in some fresh air and take a different approach to the Church's engagement with the twentieth century. A small but disciplined bloc of French cardinals, committed to forwarding the candidacy of the former nuncio to Paris, Angelo Cardinal Roncalli, hung in for ballot after ballot until they had assembled a winning coalition.

The second conclave of 1978 was even more dramatic, and provided perhaps a clearer example of how each conclave microculture is unique. The first conclave of 1978 - brilliantly organized behind the scenes by Giovanni Cardinal Benelli of Florence, Paul VI's former chief of staff - had swiftly elected the hitherto obscure Albino Cardinal Luciani of Venice in one day. Then John Paul I died after a 33-day pontificate and the College of Cardinals found themselves spiritually and psychologically traumatized.

As one elector in the 1978 conclaves put it to me years later, the sudden death of John Paul I was "a message from the Lord, quite out of the ordinary ... This was an intervention from the Lord to teach us something." The lesson they learned was that the Italian hegemony of the papacy could be broken after 455 years, given the availability of a charismatic Pole named Karol Wojtyla, who was elected as John Paul II.

The conclave of 2013 has its own unique framework, within which such unexpected intra-conclave dynamics will emerge and play themselves out. For one thing, not only does no Cardinal have anything resembling the stature and authority of Joseph Ratzinger in 2005, but there is also a sense that the Church is in uncharted and perilous waters because of the abdication of Benedict XVI, an act that really has no precedent. Will this abdication set up pressures on future popes, some of which cannot be imagined today? Does the possibility, already being bruited, that a very young man could be elected pope (because "he can do this for 15 years and then retire") suggest a fundamental alteration in Catholic understandings of the papacy, changes that reduce the papacy to a Catholic variant on role of the archbishopric of Canterbury in the Anglican Communion?

Even more significantly, one of the most striking things about this conclave is that there is no progressive candidate, as there was in 2005 with Carlo Maria Martini. The old post-Vatican II progressive versus conservative division is not the framework-setting issue for this conclave. Instead, it is the division between Old Church and New Church, between institutional-maintenance Catholicism and what I call "Evangelical Catholicism." And along that fault-line there are two different approaches to what is indisputably a major issue as the conclave is enclosed: the reform of the Roman Curia.

There were, as there are before every conclave, concerns about the Vatican bureaucracy in 2005. But today there is a widespread and firmly held conviction that the central administrative machinery of the Church is broken. Needless to say, most of the curial Cardinals involved in that machinery (who make us around 20% of the conclave) have a different view. This disconnect between the reformers' perceptions of what has gone wrong and the defensiveness of many curial Cardinals has led to an undercurrent of anger that was not discernible in 2005.

This has been exacerbated by a strong reaction against what is perceived as an excessive and failed re-Italianization of the Vatican, the results of which were to make Benedict XVI's life and work far more difficult. As one Italian friend, a distinguished academic and active Catholic layman, put it to me, "our [Italian] culture has become corrupt" - and he believed, sadly, that that corruption had seeped behind the walls of the Vatican through the re-Italianization of the Roman Curia.

The party of institutional maintenance would likely favour some tinkering with the Vatican bureaucracy, chiefly in terms of increased competence at the highest levels of curial leadership. The evangelical-Catholic forces, on the other hand, want a root-and-branch reform that would dramatically change the Curia's institutional culture, so that the Church's central administrative machinery becomes an instrument of the New Evangelization, not an impediment to it.

Within that difference of approach lies another burning question: What is to be done about various unmistakable issues of corruption that were surfaced, if in a sleazy way, in the so-called Vatileaks affair? Again, the party of reform - the evangelical-Catholic party - would favour a swift housecleaning, while the institutional-maintenance party would, most likely, deal with the most egregious offenses (and offenders) without addressing what seem to some to be systematic patterns of decay.

The fundamental direction of twenty-first-century Catholicism seems set. Whether the venue is Africa, Asia, Latin America or the North Atlantic world, the Catholicism with a future is a robustly evangelical, dynamically orthodox Catholicism that invites the world into friendship with the Lord Jesus Christ, that defends the dignity of every human life and the "first freedom" of religious liberty for all, and that models a more humane way of life amidst the chill winds of postmodern nihilism and scepticism.

The question that will begin to be answered when the white smoke goes up is whether that process of deep Catholic reform, in the service of profound conversion and renewed evangelical energy, will be accelerated by the new pope.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 13, 2013, 02:23:22 AM
Thought this was an interesting article on the conclave from an insider's perspective.

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 13, 2013, 09:15:13 AM
Schönborn is well-know for zero tolerance for Child abuse, so he will be very bad news for homossexual priests.

QuoteWhether the venue is Africa, Asia, Latin America or the North Atlantic world, the Catholicism with a future is a robustly evangelical, dynamically orthodox Catholicism that invites the world into friendship with the Lord Jesus Christ, that defends the dignity of every human life and the "first freedom" of religious liberty for all, and that models a more humane way of life amidst the chill winds of postmodern nihilism and scepticism.

Quote from: Valmy on March 13, 2013, 09:24:32 AM

QuoteWhether the venue is Africa, Asia, Latin America or the North Atlantic world, the Catholicism with a future is a robustly evangelical, dynamically orthodox Catholicism that invites the world into friendship with the Lord Jesus Christ, that defends the dignity of every human life and the "first freedom" of religious liberty for all, and that models a more humane way of life amidst the chill winds of postmodern nihilism and scepticism.

Didn't he leave out a rather important continent for the Vatican?

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 13, 2013, 09:37:26 AM
Maybe Valmy misread Atlantic as American.

Quote from: garbon on March 13, 2013, 09:19:11 AM

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 13, 2013, 09:15:13 AM
Schönborn is well-know for zero tolerance for Child abuse, so he will be very bad news for homossexual priests.

:hmm:

Quote from: Martinus on March 13, 2013, 10:30:47 AM
This thread is amusing. Martim Silva is his usual retard self. Perhaps he was told all these things by the Idiotstan ambassador over a dinner.

Quote from: Guardian)
A potentially explosive report has linked the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI to the discovery of a network of gay prelates in the Vatican, some of whom – the report said – were being blackmailed by outsiders.

(...)

The paper said the pope had taken the decision on 17 December that he was going to resign – the day he received a dossier compiled by three cardinals delegated to look into the so-called "Vatileaks" affair.

(...)

The newspaper said the cardinals described a number of factions, including one whose members were "united by sexual orientation".

In an apparent quotation from the report, La Repubblica said some Vatican officials had been subject to "external influence" from laymen with whom they had links of a "worldly nature". The paper said this was a clear reference to blackmail.

It quoted a source "very close to those who wrote [the cardinal's report]" as saying: "Everything revolves around the non-observance of the sixth and seventh commandments."

The seventh enjoins against theft. The sixth forbids adultery, but is linked in Catholic doctrine to the proscribing of homosexual acts.

(...)

La Repubblica's report was the latest in a string of claims that a gay network exists in the Vatican. In 2007 a senior official was suspended from the congregation, or department, for the priesthood, after he was filmed in a "sting" organised by an Italian television programme while apparently making sexual overtures to a younger man.

In 2010 a chorister was dismissed for allegedly procuring male prostitutes for a papal gentleman-in-waiting. A few months later a weekly news magazine used hidden cameras to record priests visiting gay clubs and bars and having sex.

The Vatican does not condemn homosexuals. But it teaches that gay sex is "intrinsically disordered". Pope Benedict has barred sexually active gay men from studying for the priesthood.

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 13, 2013, 09:15:13 AM
All American Cardinals are over-eager to talk to the media, so they're out. Not to mention the Canadian one said being a Pope would be 'a nightmare'.

Quote from: Liep on March 13, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
It's white.

Quote from: Solmyr on March 13, 2013, 01:26:25 PM
Elected on 13.3.13. :ph34r:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2013, 01:53:07 PM
So which faction won, the homos or the straights?  :)

Quote from: Liep on March 13, 2013, 02:15:45 PM
Pope Francis.. doesn't really have a good ring to it.

Quote from: Liep on March 13, 2013, 02:15:45 PM
Pope Francis.. doesn't really have a good ring to it.

Quote from: The Larch on March 13, 2013, 02:16:57 PM

Quote from: Liep on March 13, 2013, 02:15:45 PM
Pope Francis.. doesn't really have a good ring to it.

Should have chosen Diego.

QuoteEarly life

Jorge Bergoglio was born in Buenos Aires, one of the five children of an Italian railway worker and his wife. After studying at the seminary in Villa Devoto, he entered the Society of Jesus on March 11, 1958. Bergoglio obtained a licentiate in philosophy from the Colegio Máximo San José in San Miguel, and then taught literature and psychology at the Colegio de la Inmaculada in Santa Fe, and the Colegio del Salvador in Buenos Aires. He was ordained to the priesthood on December 13, 1969, by Archbishop Ramón José Castellano. He attended the Philosophical and Theological Faculty of San Miguel, a seminary in San Miguel. Bergoglio attained the position of novice master there and became professor of theology.

Impressed with his leadership skills, the Society of Jesus promoted Bergoglio and he served as provincial for Argentina from 1973 to 1979. He was transferred in 1980 to become the rector of the seminary in San Miguel where had had studied. He served in that capacity until 1986. He completed his doctoral dissertation in Germany and returned to his homeland to serve as confessor and spiritual director in Córdoba.

Bergoglio succeeded Cardinal Quarracino on February 28, 1998. He was concurrently named ordinary for Eastern Catholics in Argentina, who lacked their own prelate. Pope John Paul II summoned the newly named archbishop to the consistory of February 21, 2001 in Vatican City and elevated Bergoglio with the papal honors of a cardinal. He was named to the Cardinal-Priest of Saint Robert Bellarmino.


Cardinal

Jorge Cardinal Bergoglio greets President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, December, 2007.

As cardinal, Bergoglio was appointed to several administrative positions in the Roman Curia. He served on the Congregation of Clergy, Congregation of Divine Worship and Sacraments, Congregation of Institutes of Consecrated Life and the Congregation of Societies of Apostolic Life. Bergoglio became a member of the Commission on Latin American and the Family Council.
As Cardinal, Bergoglio became known for personal humility, doctrinal conservatism and a commitment to social justice. A simple lifestyle has contributed to his reputation for humility. He lives in a small apartment, rather than in the palatial bishop's residence. He gave up his chauffeured limousine in favor of public transportation, and he reportedly cooks his own meals.

Upon the death of Pope John Paul II, Bergoglio, considered papabile himself, participated in the 2005 papal conclave as a cardinal elector, the conclave that selected Pope Benedict XVI. A widespread theory says that he was in a tight fight with Ratzinger until he himself adviced crying[clarification needed] not to be voted.[1] Earlier, he had participated in the funeral of Pope John Paul II and acted as a regent alongside the College of Cardinals, governing the Holy See and the Roman Catholic Church during the interregnum sede vacante period. Cardinal Bergoglio remains eligible to participate in conclaves that begin before his 80th birthday on December 17, 2016.

During the 2005 Synod of Bishops, he was elected a member of the Post-Synodal council. Catholic journalist John L. Allen, Jr. reported that Bergoglio was a frontrunner in the 2005 Conclave. An unauthorized diary of uncertain authenticity released in September 2005[2] confirmed that Bergogolio was the runner-up and main challenger of Cardinal Ratzinger at that conclave. The purported diary of the anonymous cardinal claimed Bergoglio received 40 votes in the third ballot, but fell back to 26 at the fourth and decisive ballot.

On November 8, 2005, Bergoglio was elected President of the Argentine Episcopal Conference for a three-year term (2005–2008) by a large majority of the Argentine bishops, which according to reports confirms his local leadership and the international prestige earned by his alleged performance in the conclave. He was reelected on November 11, 2008.


Views

Liberation theology
Bergoglio is an accomplished theologian who distanced himself from liberation theology early in his career. He is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement.

Abortion and euthanasia
Cardinal Bergoglio has invited his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia.[3]

Homosexuality
He has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, though he teaches the importance of respecting individuals who are homosexual. He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by homosexuals is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition".[4]

Church and AIDS
His doctrinal orthodoxy emphasizes Christ's mandate to love: he is well remembered for his 2001 visit to a hospice, in which he washed and kissed the feet of twelve AIDS patients.

Social justice
He consistently preaches a message of compassion towards the poor, but somewho? observers would like him to place a greater emphasis on issues of social justice. Rather than articulating positions on matters of political economy, Bergoglio prefers to emphasize spirituality and holiness, believing that this will naturally lead to greater concern for the suffering of the poor. He has, however, voiced support for social programs, and publicly challenged free-market policies.

Relations with the Argentine government

On April 15, 2005, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against Bergoglio, accusing him of conspiring with the junta in 1976 to kidnap two Jesuit priests, whom he, as superior of the Society of Jesus of Argentina in 1976, had asked to leave their pastoral work following conflict within the Society over how to respond to the new military dictatorship, with some priests advocating a violent overthrow. Bergoglio's spokesman has flatly denied the allegations. No evidence was presented linking the cardinal to this crime.[5]

Quote from: The Larch on March 13, 2013, 02:01:37 PM
Scola's twitter account has just been disabled...  :ph34r:

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 02:25:50 PM
An Argie?  Have fun with that :lol:

Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 02:29:21 PM
Austrian media go with "Franziskus I" instead of "Franz I". Because obviously the former sounds more festive.

Quote from: The Larch on March 13, 2013, 02:31:33 PM
Just imagine that he now screams "¡Malvinas argentinas!".

Quote from: fahdiz on March 13, 2013, 02:22:00 PM

Quote from: Liep on March 13, 2013, 02:15:45 PM
Pope Francis.. doesn't really have a good ring to it.

St. Francis was rad, though, so: good choice.

Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 02:23:06 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

QuoteEarly life

Jorge Bergoglio was born in Buenos Aires, one of the five children of an Italian railway worker and his wife. After studying at the seminary in Villa Devoto, he entered the Society of Jesus on March 11, 1958. Bergoglio obtained a licentiate in philosophy from the Colegio Máximo San José in San Miguel, and then taught literature and psychology at the Colegio de la Inmaculada in Santa Fe, and the Colegio del Salvador in Buenos Aires. He was ordained to the priesthood on December 13, 1969, by Archbishop Ramón José Castellano. He attended the Philosophical and Theological Faculty of San Miguel, a seminary in San Miguel. Bergoglio attained the position of novice master there and became professor of theology.

Impressed with his leadership skills, the Society of Jesus promoted Bergoglio and he served as provincial for Argentina from 1973 to 1979. He was transferred in 1980 to become the rector of the seminary in San Miguel where had had studied. He served in that capacity until 1986. He completed his doctoral dissertation in Germany and returned to his homeland to serve as confessor and spiritual director in Córdoba.

Bergoglio succeeded Cardinal Quarracino on February 28, 1998. He was concurrently named ordinary for Eastern Catholics in Argentina, who lacked their own prelate. Pope John Paul II summoned the newly named archbishop to the consistory of February 21, 2001 in Vatican City and elevated Bergoglio with the papal honors of a cardinal. He was named to the Cardinal-Priest of Saint Robert Bellarmino.


Cardinal

Jorge Cardinal Bergoglio greets President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, December, 2007.

As cardinal, Bergoglio was appointed to several administrative positions in the Roman Curia. He served on the Congregation of Clergy, Congregation of Divine Worship and Sacraments, Congregation of Institutes of Consecrated Life and the Congregation of Societies of Apostolic Life. Bergoglio became a member of the Commission on Latin American and the Family Council.
As Cardinal, Bergoglio became known for personal humility, doctrinal conservatism and a commitment to social justice. A simple lifestyle has contributed to his reputation for humility. He lives in a small apartment, rather than in the palatial bishop's residence. He gave up his chauffeured limousine in favor of public transportation, and he reportedly cooks his own meals.

Upon the death of Pope John Paul II, Bergoglio, considered papabile himself, participated in the 2005 papal conclave as a cardinal elector, the conclave that selected Pope Benedict XVI. A widespread theory says that he was in a tight fight with Ratzinger until he himself adviced crying[clarification needed] not to be voted.[1] Earlier, he had participated in the funeral of Pope John Paul II and acted as a regent alongside the College of Cardinals, governing the Holy See and the Roman Catholic Church during the interregnum sede vacante period. Cardinal Bergoglio remains eligible to participate in conclaves that begin before his 80th birthday on December 17, 2016.

During the 2005 Synod of Bishops, he was elected a member of the Post-Synodal council. Catholic journalist John L. Allen, Jr. reported that Bergoglio was a frontrunner in the 2005 Conclave. An unauthorized diary of uncertain authenticity released in September 2005[2] confirmed that Bergogolio was the runner-up and main challenger of Cardinal Ratzinger at that conclave. The purported diary of the anonymous cardinal claimed Bergoglio received 40 votes in the third ballot, but fell back to 26 at the fourth and decisive ballot.

On November 8, 2005, Bergoglio was elected President of the Argentine Episcopal Conference for a three-year term (2005–2008) by a large majority of the Argentine bishops, which according to reports confirms his local leadership and the international prestige earned by his alleged performance in the conclave. He was reelected on November 11, 2008.


Views

Liberation theology
Bergoglio is an accomplished theologian who distanced himself from liberation theology early in his career. He is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement.

Abortion and euthanasia
Cardinal Bergoglio has invited his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia.[3]

Homosexuality
He has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, though he teaches the importance of respecting individuals who are homosexual. He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by homosexuals is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition".[4]

Church and AIDS
His doctrinal orthodoxy emphasizes Christ's mandate to love: he is well remembered for his 2001 visit to a hospice, in which he washed and kissed the feet of twelve AIDS patients.

Social justice
He consistently preaches a message of compassion towards the poor, but somewho? observers would like him to place a greater emphasis on issues of social justice. Rather than articulating positions on matters of political economy, Bergoglio prefers to emphasize spirituality and holiness, believing that this will naturally lead to greater concern for the suffering of the poor. He has, however, voiced support for social programs, and publicly challenged free-market policies.

Relations with the Argentine government

On April 15, 2005, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against Bergoglio, accusing him of conspiring with the junta in 1976 to kidnap two Jesuit priests, whom he, as superior of the Society of Jesus of Argentina in 1976, had asked to leave their pastoral work following conflict within the Society over how to respond to the new military dictatorship, with some priests advocating a violent overthrow. Bergoglio's spokesman has flatly denied the allegations. No evidence was presented linking the cardinal to this crime.[5]

Quote from: Martinus on March 13, 2013, 02:40:14 PM
So, going by the last Papal sequence: Italy -> Poland -> Germany -> Argentina.

Sounds like soccer.

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 02:38:00 PM
Need to hit up the local Argentine restaurant-- probably giving away free empanadas tonight :hmm:

Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 02:15:09 PM
An Argentinian. Hum.

Quote from: Phillip V on March 13, 2013, 02:47:31 PM
What was his first language: Italian or Spanish?

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 02:56:09 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on March 13, 2013, 02:47:31 PM
What was his first language: Italian or Spanish?

Neither.  Argentinish :contract:

Quote from: The Larch on March 13, 2013, 03:04:15 PM

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 02:56:09 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on March 13, 2013, 02:47:31 PM
What was his first language: Italian or Spanish?

Neither.  Argentinish :contract:

Platense.

Quote from: The Larch on March 13, 2013, 02:31:33 PM
Just imagine that he now screams "¡Malvinas argentinas!".

Quote from: Legbiter on March 13, 2013, 03:11:59 PM

Quote from: The Larch on March 13, 2013, 02:31:33 PM
Just imagine that he now screams "¡Malvinas argentinas!".

:lol:

Quote from: mongers on March 13, 2013, 02:34:47 PM
His twitter account is literally gaining around 100 new followers every second or so:

https://mobile.twitter.com/JMBergoglio (https://mobile.twitter.com/JMBergoglio)

Quote from: Phillip V on March 13, 2013, 03:23:13 PM
Pope Francis seems like a nice humble guy; born and raised in Argentina, but of a 1st generation Italian immigrant family. He studied and received a master's degree in chemistry before deciding to become a priest.

QuoteMore on Argentinian journalist Horacio Verbitsky's contention that Bergoglio stood by as tens of thousand of leftists were captured and killed:

The most well-known episode relates to the abduction of two Jesuits whom the military government secretly jailed for their work in poor neighborhoods.

According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture.

Verbitsky's book is based on statements by Orlando Yorio, one of the kidnapped Jesuits, before he died of natural causes in 2000. Both of the abducted clergymen survived five months of imprisonment.

"History condemns him. It shows him to be opposed to all innovation in the Church and above all, during the dictatorship, it shows he was very cozy with the military," Fortunato Mallimacci, the former dean of social sciences at the Universidad de Buenos Aires, once said.

Quote from: Martinus on March 13, 2013, 03:27:54 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on March 13, 2013, 03:23:13 PM
Pope Francis seems like a nice humble guy; born and raised in Argentina, but of a 1st generation Italian immigrant family. He studied and received a master's degree in chemistry before deciding to become a priest.

QuoteMore on Argentinian journalist Horacio Verbitsky's contention that Bergoglio stood by as tens of thousand of leftists were captured and killed:

The most well-known episode relates to the abduction of two Jesuits whom the military government secretly jailed for their work in poor neighborhoods.

According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture.

Verbitsky's book is based on statements by Orlando Yorio, one of the kidnapped Jesuits, before he died of natural causes in 2000. Both of the abducted clergymen survived five months of imprisonment.

"History condemns him. It shows him to be opposed to all innovation in the Church and above all, during the dictatorship, it shows he was very cozy with the military," Fortunato Mallimacci, the former dean of social sciences at the Universidad de Buenos Aires, once said.

Yeah, sounds like a really nice guy.

Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 03:28:54 PM
A Jesuit.  Wow.  That's big.  I mean, really big.

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 03:30:26 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 03:28:54 PM
A Jesuit.  Wow.  That's big.  I mean, really big.

Why?

Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 03:36:39 PM
For one, there's never been a Jesuit pope, second the Jesuits are sorta the black sheep of the church.  They were banned in most countries for a while.  Third, it's where all the smart guys end up.  There have been a lot of scientist-jesuits and intellectuals.  They tend to factor into a lot of conspiracy theories amongst protestants as a result.

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 03:39:24 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 03:36:39 PM
For one, there's never been a Jesuit pope, second the Jesuits are sorta the black sheep of the church.  They were banned in most countries for a while.  Third, it's where all the smart guys end up.  There have been a lot of scientist-jesuits and intellectuals.  They tend to factor into a lot of conspiracy theories amongst protestants as a result.

I'm generally not big on Jesuits due to their leftist stances on so many issues, but this dude seems decent enough.  Don't recall seeing many conspiracy theories about Jesuits  :hmm:

Quote from: mongers on March 13, 2013, 03:44:07 PM
Hoping you're wife will put out tonight ?    :P

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 03:45:39 PM

Quote from: mongers on March 13, 2013, 03:44:07 PM
Hoping you're wife will put out tonight ?    :P

There's nothing quite like celebratory papal announcement sex :perv:

Quote from: Legbiter on March 13, 2013, 04:02:24 PM
BBC WS was interviewing an argie in St. Peter's square who went on a Malvinas rant.  :lol:

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 04:04:41 PM

Quote from: Legbiter on March 13, 2013, 04:02:24 PM
BBC WS was interviewing an argie in St. Peter's square who went on a Malvinas rant.  :lol:

Awesome.

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
Sounds like the New & Improved Pope has had scuffles with Argentina's stupid bitch president in the past.  Based upon this, I'm elevating him to AWESOME DUDE status.

QuoteAfter less than 24 hours of deliberation, the College of Cardinals has elected Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio from Argentina to become the Roman Catholic Church's 266th leader, who will be the Church's first-ever South American pope and who will be henceforth known as Pope Francis. Here are some facts about the new pope:

Date Of Birth: December 17, 1936

Date Of Death: November 16, 2015

Number Of People Who Don't Give A Shit What He Thinks About Anything: Approximately 5.8 billion

Spouse: Isabel Alba Bergoglio

Children: Rebecca (b. 2002), Timothy (b. 2006)

Main Goals For Papacy: Keep Catholic people Catholic, convince other people to become Catholic

Old: Yes

White: Yes

Women's Rights: Nah

Ability To Walk Up Steps Without Help: Not great

Highest-Charting Single:"Wanna Do Ya Girl (But tha Lord is My Love)," 1989, Arista Records

Official Website: www.techdeals.com

What He Thinks Heaven Is Like: Mix of clouds and astroturf

Outrage Over Sexual Abuse In Catholic Church: Yeah, sure

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 13, 2013, 02:52:46 PMSo Francis in English? French media is reporting Francois.

Quote from: Martinus on March 13, 2013, 04:18:42 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 13, 2013, 02:52:46 PMSo Francis in English? French media is reporting Francois.

You do realize his "official" name is in Latin, not English or French, right?

Quote from: Martinus on March 13, 2013, 04:12:29 PM

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
Sounds like the New & Improved Pope has had scuffles with Argentina's stupid bitch president in the past.  Based upon this, I'm elevating him to AWESOME DUDE status.

Go fuck yourself.

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
Sounds like the New & Improved Pope has had scuffles with Argentina's stupid bitch president in the past.  Based upon this, I'm elevating him to AWESOME DUDE status.

Quote from: Martinus on March 13, 2013, 04:12:29 PM

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
Sounds like the New & Improved Pope has had scuffles with Argentina's stupid bitch president in the past.  Based upon this, I'm elevating him to AWESOME DUDE status.

Go fuck yourself.

QuoteHe is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement.

Quote from: fahdiz on March 13, 2013, 04:37:32 PM

QuoteHe is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement.

Hoo boy. Those guys are culty.

Quote from: The Larch on March 13, 2013, 04:48:25 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on March 13, 2013, 04:37:32 PM

QuoteHe is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement.

Hoo boy. Those guys are culty.

Nah, they're in for the money, mostly.

Quote from: fahdiz on March 13, 2013, 04:52:19 PM

Quote from: The Larch on March 13, 2013, 04:48:25 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on March 13, 2013, 04:37:32 PM

QuoteHe is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement.

Hoo boy. Those guys are culty.

Nah, they're in for the money, mostly.

Really? I had heard a while back that they were VERY aggressively political, such that a lot of more mainstream Catholics were a little embarrassed by them.

Quote from: Syt on March 13, 2013, 02:16:41 PM
Jesuit, too.

Quote from: Martinus on March 13, 2013, 03:27:54 PM

QuoteMore on Argentinian journalist Horacio Verbitsky's contention that Bergoglio stood by as tens of thousand of leftists were captured and killed:

The most well-known episode relates to the abduction of two Jesuits whom the military government secretly jailed for their work in poor neighborhoods.

According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture.

Verbitsky's book is based on statements by Orlando Yorio, one of the kidnapped Jesuits, before he died of natural causes in 2000. Both of the abducted clergymen survived five months of imprisonment.

"History condemns him. It shows him to be opposed to all innovation in the Church and above all, during the dictatorship, it shows he was very cozy with the military," Fortunato Mallimacci, the former dean of social sciences at the Universidad de Buenos Aires, once said.

Yeah, sounds like a really nice guy.

Quote from: Solmyr on March 13, 2013, 02:39:20 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on March 13, 2013, 02:22:00 PM

Quote from: Liep on March 13, 2013, 02:15:45 PM
Pope Francis.. doesn't really have a good ring to it.

St. Francis was rad, though, so: good choice.

So, Francis of Assisi, Francis de Sales, or Francis Xavier?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 05:32:57 PM

Quote from: Martinus on March 13, 2013, 03:27:54 PM

QuoteMore on Argentinian journalist Horacio Verbitsky's contention that Bergoglio stood by as tens of thousand of leftists were captured and killed:

The most well-known episode relates to the abduction of two Jesuits whom the military government secretly jailed for their work in poor neighborhoods.

According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture.

Verbitsky's book is based on statements by Orlando Yorio, one of the kidnapped Jesuits, before he died of natural causes in 2000. Both of the abducted clergymen survived five months of imprisonment.

"History condemns him. It shows him to be opposed to all innovation in the Church and above all, during the dictatorship, it shows he was very cozy with the military," Fortunato Mallimacci, the former dean of social sciences at the Universidad de Buenos Aires, once said.

Yeah, sounds like a really nice guy.

So, in other words, not much different than the rest of the Church abandoning the Society in Central and South America, like the soon-to-be-canonized Pole-Pope.

At least those Jesuits were only imprisoned.  Johnny Paul the Deuce looked the other way when they got killed.

Quote from: fahdiz on March 13, 2013, 04:37:32 PM

QuoteHe is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement.

Hoo boy. Those guys are culty.

Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 05:52:47 PM

Quote from: fahdiz on March 13, 2013, 04:37:32 PM

QuoteHe is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement.

Hoo boy. Those guys are culty.

Are they those Italian Neo-Fascist ones?

Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 05:59:22 PM
I thought they had some strong corporatist bent, but I might be thinking of someone else.

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 13, 2013, 06:22:45 PM
So I wonder where he stands on curial reform?

Quote from: Caliga on March 13, 2013, 06:21:25 PM
:hmm: I actually didn't think Jesuits were allowed to accept church office at all.

QuoteA Pope From the People

The cardinals choose an Argentine pastor from a missionary tradition.

The Church of St. Peter, a mere 2,000 years old, certainly is capable of surprise. The now-retired Benedict XVI was the first pope in 600 years to resign, and on Wednesday the conclave of 115 cardinals in Rome chose the first non-European pope in a millennium, the first from Latin America, and the first Jesuit. To adapt a Biblical metaphor, perhaps the cardinals decided for a change to follow their flock.

Jorge Mario Bergoglio—now Pope Francis—has spent nearly his entire career in his native Argentina in the pastoral role as a priest and bishop. Though he knows the politics of the Vatican bureaucracy, he is not a creature of it. As an outsider he might thus be in a better position to shake up a Curia that has too often failed the church and recent popes. The church needs a hierarchy that disciplines priests who violate their vows and that cares more about spreading the gospel than gaining someone's ear.

As a pope from Latin America, Francis also represents something of a compromise between the fading Catholicism of Europe and North America and the dynamic church of the developing world. The Latin church is strong but has lost members to more evangelical Christian sects. Francis understands the challenges that Catholicism faces from an energetic, often intolerant Muslim world and from authoritarian governments in the likes of China.

As a Jesuit, he also carries the strong missionary and educational traditions of that muscular order of priests. The Jesuits led the Catholic vanguard into the New World, and millions of Americans have been educated at their high schools and such universities as Marquette and Georgetown. It's somehow appropriate that by choosing the name Francis, the new pope is echoing both the gentle, pastoral St. Francis of Assisi and St. Francis Xavier, the Catholic evangelical.

Notably, however, Pope Francis did not join those Jesuits who became enamored in the last century with "liberation theology," an attempt to do the impossible and blend Marxism with Christianity. His Christianity is less political than personal and theological, though he is not afraid to confront political malfeasance.

Amid Argentina's financial crisis in 2002, then Cardinal Bergoglio offered a sermon in Buenos Aires in which he declared "To those who are now promising to fix all your problems, I say, 'Go and fix yourself.' . . . Have a change of heart. Get to confession, before you need it even more!"

Interrupted by applause, the cardinal added, "The current crisis will not be improved by magicians from outside the country and nor will [improvement] come from the golden mouth of our politicians, so accustomed to making incredible promises."

It will come as no surprise that the Kirchner clan that has ruled Argentina for the last decade are not among his admirers. Perhaps Pope John Paul II, who faced down Communism in Poland, saw a kindred spirit in Bishop Bergoglio when he made him a cardinal.

Much is being made of Francis's age and that he is another doctrinal conservative. His 76 years do suggest his papacy will not be long, and a pope in his 50s would have more energy to clean out the Curia and travel the world. But the papacy is, more even than most other high offices, what God and the man make of it. Even short-timers can be consequential if they choose their priorities well.

As for the lament that Pope Francis is merely another Catholic who believes in Catholic dogma, what do you expect? This is a familiar complaint of secular Western elites who think that religions need to be less religious to survive in the modern world. This strikes us as a misreading of the appeal of Christianity since its founding. And it helps explain why so many in the West seem intellectually and morally disarmed at the aggressive spread of modern Islam.

We'd even suggest that as Western culture asserts ever more proudly the superiority of its moral relativism, the more it might want to listen to religious traditions that argue on behalf of moral absolutes and the inherent dignity of every human being. It's possible this new pope from "the end of the Earth," as he put it in his first blessing, has something to teach those who like to believe they're at the center of the universe.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 06:45:49 PM
They're doers.

Quote from: Caliga on March 12, 2013, 03:28:53 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 11, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
Edit: Incidentally on O'Malley I think he'll get a lot of votes in the first round. Normally the Cardinals like to vote for undoubtedly holy candidates, who've no chance of winning, in the first round. For example I think in 1978 Basil Hume (another religious) did very well in the first vote.

:hmm: Aren't they all... religious?  I'm not sure how you could get more religious than a Roman Catholic Cardinal. :huh:

QuoteSo, Francis of Assisi, Francis de Sales, or Francis Xavier?

QuoteHoo boy. Those guys are culty.

QuoteSo, in other words, not much different than the rest of the Church abandoning the Society in Central and South America, like the soon-to-be-canonized Pole-Pope.

QuoteThey're (originally) Italian, and they loooooooove them some Berlusconi, and they are pretty right-wing AFAIK, but I am not sure that they are neo-fascist.

QuoteI actually didn't think Jesuits were allowed to accept church office at all.

Quote from: derspiess on March 13, 2013, 03:30:26 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 03:28:54 PM
A Jesuit.  Wow.  That's big.  I mean, really big.

Why?

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 13, 2013, 07:19:36 PM
Jesuits have tended to be at the fore of reform in the Church. Also as you say they are normally very lefty and really push the social teaching.

But as I say there's interesting hints here. He's a Jesuit who chose the name Francis, he's from a reformist movement but with close ties to the Communione e Liberazione lot.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 07:31:21 PM
Did you notice he wasn't wearing the fancy jeweled papal cross at the announcement, but his own wooden one?  Telling.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 07:31:21 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 13, 2013, 07:19:36 PM
Jesuits have tended to be at the fore of reform in the Church. Also as you say they are normally very lefty and really push the social teaching.

But as I say there's interesting hints here. He's a Jesuit who chose the name Francis, he's from a reformist movement but with close ties to the Communione e Liberazione lot.

Did you notice he wasn't wearing the fancy jeweled papal cross at the announcement, but his own wooden one?  Telling.

Quote from: Caliga on March 13, 2013, 07:38:54 PM
Dude, for real.  Benedict wins the Gayest Pope Ever award.  IIRC his great hobbies outside of writing about theological shit included listening to music (show tunes, I'm guessing), playing the piano, and petting cats.

Quote from: Caliga on March 13, 2013, 07:38:54 PM

and petting cats.

Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 10:16:42 PM

Quote from: Caliga on March 13, 2013, 07:38:54 PM
Dude, for real.  Benedict wins the Gayest Pope Ever award.  IIRC his great hobbies outside of writing about theological shit included listening to music (show tunes, I'm guessing), playing the piano, and petting cats.

St. Peter's Basilica is quite inspiring.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 07:31:21 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 13, 2013, 07:19:36 PM
Jesuits have tended to be at the fore of reform in the Church. Also as you say they are normally very lefty and really push the social teaching.

But as I say there's interesting hints here. He's a Jesuit who chose the name Francis, he's from a reformist movement but with close ties to the Communione e Liberazione lot.

Did you notice he wasn't wearing the fancy jeweled papal cross at the announcement, but his own wooden one?  Telling.

Quote from: Razgovory on March 14, 2013, 03:14:03 AM
Can you be a jackass somewhere else for a while?

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 08:30:06 AM
sadly no change in sexual ethics

Quote from: Caliga on March 14, 2013, 08:38:37 AM
Last night, I was reading somewhere (sadly, I forget where, else I would have linked it) that he was actually the runner-up to Ratzinger at the last conclave, and may well have won that one except he made an emotional plea begging the other cardinals to stop voting for him.  What's weird is that, if this is true, his name barely came up at all as a papabili this time around. :hmm:

Quote from: Caliga on March 14, 2013, 08:40:29 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 08:30:06 AM
sadly no change in sexual ethics

You didn't seriously think there was any chance in hell of there being a change, did you?

Quote from: Caliga on March 14, 2013, 08:42:53 AM
I think they would respond that they in fact love you, and just wish you would cease your sinful behavior. :)

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 08:43:53 AM
Not to mention, their way of "ceasing" it is just doing it behind closed doors.

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 08:41:37 AM
Why can't the Popes and conservatives grow up and be pro gay eventually.

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 08:44:23 AM
Anyway no comments on the pictures I posted? Imo, the similarity is uncanny.

Quote from: Syt on March 14, 2013, 08:47:41 AM
I'm pretty sure, though, Francis won't look near as good as JP2 in a batting cage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MZ0BbN3m7bU

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 14, 2013, 09:02:35 AM
Looks like he'd definitely get suckered by low sliders and curves.  Liked 'em high.

Quote from: Caliga on March 14, 2013, 08:42:53 AM
I think they would respond that they in fact love you, and just wish you would cease your sinful behavior. :)

Quote from: Folha de São Paulo
[Starts with argentinian slang: Ueba [whohoo!] Habemos Tango!

What? An Argentinian Pope? That's personal against Brazilians! Conclave result: Argentina 1, Brazil 0. Dom Odilio [the Brazilian cardinal] fluked!

Now we have to put up with Maradona, Messi and the Pope! And I've said it several times: you can't have an argentinian pope, because argentinians think they're God. That's taking a double job!

In fact, the argentinian got demoted: from God to Pope. And I hear that the choice took long because he was an argentinian Pope [slang references to argentinians being slow]. AND he picked 'Francis' because like that he knew he'd be number one. He might as well have picked 'Diego the 1st'!

But it's a good thing an argentinian Pope, because like that he can speak with God on an equal footing. There's a photoshop going around the net with Maradona holding a sign saying: "I already knew that!". And in St. Peter's Square, all you saw was people tucking away the brazilian flag!

And I think that the Holy Ghost whispered Odilio, but since the old cooks are deaf, they heard Bergoglio!

But that's okay. Argentina may have a Pope, but we have Inri Cristo* and Edir Macedo**.

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 08:41:37 AM
Yeah I've seen this reported by several sources.

Sigh. Why can't the Popes and conservatives grow up and be pro gay eventually.

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 14, 2013, 09:07:20 AM
(that is why you don't see priests saying 'I'm straight' - that too, whould be a betrayal of the Church).

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:10:21 AM
When do you see any straight person saying "I'm straight"?

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:10:21 AM
When do you see any straight person saying "I'm straight"?

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:11:55 AM
And thanks for that op-ed. So enlightening. :mellow:

Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 09:13:55 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:10:21 AM
When do you see any straight person saying "I'm straight"?

The same context people say "I'm Gay", when the topic is about people's sexuality.

Though personally I don't use gay slang.  'Going straight' makes sense if you are a closeted gay man from the 60s or whatever but it doesn't make much sense if you actually are heterosexual.

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 09:16:44 AM
"Straight" is hardly gay slang. The expression you are looking for is "breeder cunt slave".

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 14, 2013, 09:12:54 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:10:21 AM
When do you see any straight person saying "I'm straight"?

Whenever they want to say they're not gay or bi.  It happens often here. Doesn't it over there?  :huh:

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 14, 2013, 09:14:35 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:11:55 AM
And thanks for that op-ed. So enlightening. :mellow:

Trust me, for locals and us in the Peninsula, it's hilarious and totally reflects the attitude towards the election  :)

Sorry if it misses you all, though. There was a high probability of that  :(

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:27:34 AM
Which generally doesn't happen as it is typically assumed by default. :mellow:

Quote from: garbon
Yeah it wasn't funny at all. Only merciful bit is that the piece of drivel was so short.

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 14, 2013, 10:10:07 AM
By default, Catholic priests are assumed to be asexual.

(Which is why it is traditionally considered 'safe' to let wives and children near them unsupervised)

A Catholic priest that has a (or is not repressing) his sexual orientation, no matter which one, is commiting a grave fault, not only in the eyes of the Church, but also of the believers (and that is even before the fact that active homossexuality is a sin comes into it).

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 14, 2013, 10:10:07 AM
Ok, to simplify:

The Churches' image in South America is not totally benefitted from the election, as it sits rather badly with the Brazilians, who are by far the largest population in the region.

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:10:21 AM
When do you see any straight person saying "I'm straight"?

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 14, 2013, 10:10:07 AM
Ok, to simplify:

The Churches' image in South America is not totally benefitted from the election, as it sits rather badly with the Brazilians, who are by far the largest population in the region.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 14, 2013, 10:13:46 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:10:21 AM
When do you see any straight person saying "I'm straight"?

I say this whenever a guy makes a pass at me.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 14, 2013, 10:13:46 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 09:10:21 AM
When do you see any straight person saying "I'm straight"?

I say this whenever a guy makes a pass at me.

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 10:49:17 AM
Does that happen often?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 14, 2013, 10:55:50 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 10:49:17 AM
Does that happen often?

Maybe 6-8 times when I was in DC.

Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 10:56:35 AM
So...no? :P

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 10:58:20 AM
This dude is ancient. Appears more like Vatican token affirmative action. Why cant they pick someone younger ala JP 2? He was 58 IIRC when selected. This dude is what 76.


*Hey I know Guys, lets pick the old brown guy. He'll be dead in a few years then we're golden.*

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 10:58:20 AM
This dude is ancient. Appears more like Vatican token affirmative action. Why cant they pick someone younger ala JP 2? He was 58 IIRC when selected. This dude is what 76.


*Hey I know Guys, lets pick the old brown guy. He'll be dead in a few years then we're golden.*

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:06:32 AM
Oh my god.

Remember how the Malachite prophecy had it that the next Pope (and the last one for the Roman Church) will be black?

Do you know what the Superior General of the Jesuits is often called in the "Vatican slang"? The Black Pope. And Jesuits are called black monks because of the colour of their habits.

:ph34r:

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 11:09:18 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:06:32 AM
Oh my god.

Remember how the Malachite prophecy had it that the next Pope (and the last one for the Roman Church) will be black?

Do you know what the Superior General of the Jesuits is often called in the "Vatican slang"? The Black Pope. And Jesuits are called black monks because of the colour of their habits.

:ph34r:

Shit, it's the end of the world. Time to stock up on ammo again. Crap cant find any from the last mania.

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 11:09:18 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:06:32 AM
Oh my god.

Remember how the Malachite prophecy had it that the next Pope (and the last one for the Roman Church) will be black?

Do you know what the Superior General of the Jesuits is often called in the "Vatican slang"? The Black Pope. And Jesuits are called black monks because of the colour of their habits.

:ph34r:

Shit, it's the end of the world. Time to stock up on ammo again. Crap cant find any from the last mania.

Quote from: derspiess on March 14, 2013, 11:11:39 AM

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 11:09:18 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:06:32 AM
Oh my god.

Remember how the Malachite prophecy had it that the next Pope (and the last one for the Roman Church) will be black?

Do you know what the Superior General of the Jesuits is often called in the "Vatican slang"? The Black Pope. And Jesuits are called black monks because of the colour of their habits.

:ph34r:

Shit, it's the end of the world. Time to stock up on ammo again. Crap cant find any from the last mania.

http://gunbot.net/

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 11:12:23 AM

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 11:09:18 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:06:32 AM
Oh my god.

Remember how the Malachite prophecy had it that the next Pope (and the last one for the Roman Church) will be black?

Do you know what the Superior General of the Jesuits is often called in the "Vatican slang"? The Black Pope. And Jesuits are called black monks because of the colour of their habits.

:ph34r:

Shit, it's the end of the world. Time to stock up on ammo again. Crap cant find any from the last mania.

Ask the department of Homeland Security, I think they have some.

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:06:32 AM
Oh my god.

Remember how the Malachite prophecy had it that the next Pope (and the last one for the Roman Church) will be black?

Do you know what the Superior General of the Jesuits is often called in the "Vatican slang"? The Black Pope. And Jesuits are called black monks because of the colour of their habits.

:ph34r:

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:06:32 AM
Oh my god.

Remember how the Malachite prophecy had it that the next Pope (and the last one for the Roman Church) will be black?

Do you know what the Superior General of the Jesuits is often called in the "Vatican slang"? The Black Pope. And Jesuits are called black monks because of the colour of their habits.

:ph34r:

QuotePeter the Roman, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations, and when these things are finished, the city of seven hills [i.e. Rome] will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The End.

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:06:32 AM
Do you know what the Superior General of the Jesuits is often called in the "Vatican slang"? The Black Pope. And Jesuits are called black monks because of the colour of their habits.

Quote from: Syt on March 14, 2013, 11:31:07 AM
Btw, this is NOT the first non-European Pope. There were a bunch from Syria (last one: Gregory III, 731-741) and two from Africa (Victor I, 189-199, and Miltiades, 311-314). :P

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 11:02:47 AM

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 10:58:20 AM
This dude is ancient. Appears more like Vatican token affirmative action. Why cant they pick someone younger ala JP 2? He was 58 IIRC when selected. This dude is what 76.


*Hey I know Guys, lets pick the old brown guy. He'll be dead in a few years then we're golden.*

They don't want another 20 year pontificat. ~5 years will be the norm now.

Quote from: Syt on March 14, 2013, 11:31:07 AM
Btw, this is NOT the first non-European Pope. There were a bunch from Syria (last one: Gregory III, 731-741) and two from Africa (Victor I, 189-199, and Miltiades, 311-314). :P

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 10:58:20 AM
This dude is ancient. Appears more like Vatican token affirmative action. Why cant they pick someone younger ala JP 2? He was 58 IIRC when selected. This dude is what 76.


*Hey I know Guys, lets pick the old brown guy. He'll be dead in a few years then we're golden.*

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:49:47 AM

Quote from: Syt on March 14, 2013, 11:31:07 AM
Btw, this is NOT the first non-European Pope. There were a bunch from Syria (last one: Gregory III, 731-741) and two from Africa (Victor I, 189-199, and Miltiades, 311-314). :P

Yeah. It's the first Pope who is not from Eurasia though.

Quote from: alfred russel on March 14, 2013, 11:51:12 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:49:47 AM

Quote from: Syt on March 14, 2013, 11:31:07 AM
Btw, this is NOT the first non-European Pope. There were a bunch from Syria (last one: Gregory III, 731-741) and two from Africa (Victor I, 189-199, and Miltiades, 311-314). :P

Yeah. It's the first Pope who is not from Eurasia though.

Except for the couple from Africa.  :P

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 11:53:01 AM
Sorry I mis-typed - I meant the landmass of Europe Asia and Africa. But as someone else said, all the other non-European Popes were from the Roman world so it should really count as Europe in the political sense (it's like with Eurovision, which allows Israel to compete :P).

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 11:57:51 AM
Is there a Chinese Cardinal?

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 11:57:51 AM
Is there a Chinese Cardinal?

Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 12:08:20 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 11:57:51 AM
Is there a Chinese Cardinal?

If there is he is hiding in secret.  Relations between the PRC and the Vatican are not great.

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 12:09:16 PM
Of course. China is righteous country, an atheist one.

Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 11:50:07 AM

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 10:58:20 AM
This dude is ancient. Appears more like Vatican token affirmative action. Why cant they pick someone younger ala JP 2? He was 58 IIRC when selected. This dude is what 76.


*Hey I know Guys, lets pick the old brown guy. He'll be dead in a few years then we're golden.*

There is nothing brown about the dude they just elected.

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 12:13:33 PM
So, racism then.

Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 12:15:07 PM

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 12:13:33 PM
So, racism then.

Ah so it is either tokensim or racism?  The Vatican just cannot win with you man :(

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 12:16:15 PM

Quote from: Valmy on March 14, 2013, 12:15:07 PM

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 12:13:33 PM
So, racism then.

Ah so it is either tokensim or racism?  The Vatican just cannot win with you man :(

I'm funnin. I really thought he was a beaner.

Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 12:17:36 PM
A south American Jesuit?

I'm hearing "The Mission" soundtrack in my head ...  :D

QuoteVATICAN CITY —  Pope Francis declined the official papal car and joked with cardinals not long after being elected as head of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, officials said Thursday.
One Vatican insider admitted he was as "surprised" by the election of Francis as the rain-soaked crowd at St. Peter's Square — where an audible gasp followed the pontiff's unveiling on Wednesday.

"I didn't expect it," press spokesman Father Federico Lombardi told reporters, referring to the moment when Argentine Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio was announced as the cardinals' choice.
The Latin American pope's election shattered Europe's centuries-old grip on the papacy, and his choice of name — in honor of the 12th century saint from Assisi — is widely seen as a nod to a new era of simplicity.

Lombardi said Pope Francis declined the official papal car — featuring license plate "Vatican 1" — for his first journey from the Sistine Chapel, choosing instead to board a bus with cardinals who had just elected him.

Later, at dinner, the new pope prompted laughter by responding to their toast with the remark: "May God forgive you for what you have done."

Those observations were echoed by New York's Cardinal Tim Dolan, who told TODAY's Matt Lauer that Francis had shunned protocol that called for him to sit on elevated platform, preferring instead to stand alongside fellow cardinals. "So he greeted each of us as brothers, literally on the same level as we were."

Reuters reported that Francis returned Thursday to the church-run hostel where he had stayed ahead of the conclave and insisted on paying the bill.

"He was concerned about giving a good example of what priests and bishops should do," a Vatican spokesman said. He did not disclose how much the bill totaled.

A theological conservative who has also been hailed for his compassion toward the poor, the 76-year-old Francis is the first Jesuit pontiff.

He is also expected to become the first pope in more than 600 years to meet his predecessor. Francis will travel to the hillside papal summer residence at Castel Gandolfo to greet the emeritus pope, who is living there temporarily after abdicating as Benedict XVI on Feb. 28.

Lombardi on Thursday confirmed the historic meeting would take place but said the timing had yet to be decided.

Francis will be formally installed as the church's new leader on Tuesday.

His first full day as pontiff began with a quick and discrete visit to Rome's Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore.

"He spoke to us cordially like a father," Father Ludovico Melo told Reuters after the meeting. "We were given 10 minutes' advance notice that the pope was coming."

The new pope, who is also now Bishop of Rome, prayed before a famous icon of the Madonna called the Salus Populi Romani, or Protectress of the Roman People.

Later, he celebrated his first Mass as pope in a ceremony attended by cardinals at St Peter's Basilica.

NBC News' Vatican expert George Weigel predicted Francis would "certainly" prove to be a reformer when it comes to the Roman curia — the Vatican bureaucracy at the heart of the Catholic church.

The election of Francis appeared to surprise even those at the very heart of the church leadership, particularly among its sizable Italian contingent.

The Conference of Italian Bishops was so confident of victory for Milan's Cardinal Angelo Scola that an emailed press statement congratulating the new pope was sent with a covering email that referred to Scola, not the victorious Bergoglio, as the chosen successor to Benedict.

Italian newspaper La Repubblica reported that the conclave had "rebelled against the curia."

However, Cardinal Dolan denied the conclave had been divided. "I didn't sense that tug of war at all," he said. "I sensed a rather remarkable consensus. We needed a man who had a good track record of sound, effective pastoral governance, and we got what we wanted."

Italy's La Stampa newspaper cited an interview Bergoglio gave last year in which he condemned "vanity" and said being cardinal was "not an award to be bragged about."

Outside the Vatican, torrential overnight rain had cleansed St. Peter's Square of any sign of the 100,000-strong crowd that had cheered, applauded and cried when Francis emerged on the balcony above.

Newspaper vendors were kept busy by tourists lining to see inside the basilica.

"I think he will be a pope who thinks about more than just the Vatican," said Maryland native Marjorie Steiner, 61, who visited St. Peter's Square on Thursday as part of a vacation in Rome.

Dory Gordon, 51, from Houston, Texas, who was also on vacation, said: "As a Catholic I'm really excited that they have made this break with tradition. It sends out a good message that the church is here for all the world's people."

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 11:57:51 AM
Is there a Chinese Cardinal?

Quote from: derspiess on March 14, 2013, 01:41:03 PM
Doesn't the PRC have an officially state-recognized faux-Catholic church?

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 14, 2013, 11:29:28 AM
The are a particularly fierce bunch though, created after the Council of Trento to crush heretics, spread the Faith and protect the Church. Which is why none of them had been nomitated Pope before - their extremist views tended to allienate the moderates.

They seem a little more moderate now. Though it might be a desguise.  :ph34r:

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 14, 2013, 02:14:32 PM

Quote from: Martim Silva on March 14, 2013, 11:29:28 AM
The are a particularly fierce bunch though, created after the Council of Trento to crush heretics, spread the Faith and protect the Church. Which is why none of them had been nomitated Pope before - their extremist views tended to allienate the moderates.

They seem a little more moderate now. Though it might be a desguise.  :ph34r:

Don't keep up with current events, like the 18th century or anything.

Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 02:19:48 PM
Mind you, the same critique can be aimed at the Church.  :P

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 14, 2013, 02:51:29 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 02:19:48 PM
Mind you, the same critique can be aimed at the Church.  :P

Aren't you missing temple right now or something?

Quote from: Syt on March 14, 2013, 08:47:41 AM
I'm pretty sure, though, Francis won't look near as good as JP2 in a batting cage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MZ0BbN3m7bU

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 09:16:44 AM
"Straight" is hardly gay slang. The expression you are looking for is "breeder cunt slave".

Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 08:30:06 AM
Ok I gotta say, I'm conflicted about him.

Cons: the unclear connections to the junta (and even if he did not cooperate, did he oppose it enough or is it another case of Pius and the nazis?); sadly no change in sexual ethics

Pros: a Jesuit, inspired by St. Francis, a stranger to Roman Curia's intrigues, humble, sensitive to the plight of the poor

QuoteLast night, I was reading somewhere (sadly, I forget where, else I would have linked it) that he was actually the runner-up to Ratzinger at the last conclave, and may well have won that one except he made an emotional plea begging the other cardinals to stop voting for him.  What's weird is that, if this is true, his name barely came up at all as a papabili this time around.

QuoteSigh. Why can't the Popes and conservatives grow up and be pro gay eventually. I would probably be a conservative and a Catholic if they were as a lot of my views would probably coincide with moderate conservatism - I just can't abide supporting something that hates my guts.

QuoteActually, the leaks from the Conclave suggest everybody but the Curia voted for him. The anti-Curia Italian party, headed by Scola, seems to have switched votes in line with the ROTW party.

QuoteIf there is he is hiding in secret.  Relations between the PRC and the Vatican are not great.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 14, 2013, 07:46:14 PM
Secondly he stopped off on his way to pray at the tomb of Pius V :menace:

QuoteI SMELL CORPORATE SHAKE UP

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 08:25:02 PM
Well sure as shit. He's a white boy. So much for current events. Back to the Eastern front.

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 08:25:02 PM
Well sure as shit. He's a white boy. So much for current events. Back to the Eastern front.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 14, 2013, 07:46:14 PM
Two other interesting hints. When there's sede vacante all the senior Curia lose their jobs. It's pro forma that the next pope reappoints them normally the day he's elected until he finds his own staff. So far Francis hasn't reappointed anyone to the Curia. Secondly he stopped off on his way to pray at the tomb of Pius V :menace:

Quote from: derspiess on March 14, 2013, 09:59:24 PM
:ultra:

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 14, 2013, 11:02:47 AM

Quote from: 11B4V on March 14, 2013, 10:58:20 AM
This dude is ancient. Appears more like Vatican token affirmative action. Why cant they pick someone younger ala JP 2? He was 58 IIRC when selected. This dude is what 76.


*Hey I know Guys, lets pick the old brown guy. He'll be dead in a few years then we're golden.*

They don't want another 20 year pontificat. ~5 years will be the norm now.

QuoteSecondly he stopped off on his way to pray at the tomb of Pius V

Quote from: dps on March 14, 2013, 10:17:42 PM
Five years or so doesn't mean he'll be just a caretaker, though.  John XXIII was the same age when elected, and he convened Vatican II.

Quote from: derspiess on March 14, 2013, 09:59:24 PM
:ultra:

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 14, 2013, 07:46:14 PMYou like him and you don't want to say it. The cons are either unclear or unavoidable. Everything else you like about him :P

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 14, 2013, 07:46:14 PMI don't understand this. I know you've a mystical/spiritual streak. But seriously? If the Church changed their views on the gays I would happily and joyously rediscover my belief in the Resurrection, the Immaculate Conception, the Sacraments? :lol:

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 15, 2013, 02:03:36 AM
Cool pic, Tim.

Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2013, 02:54:45 AM
What an absurd way to look at the world. 

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 15, 2013, 07:50:06 AM
Some dude tweeted, on Feb 11 no less, that he dreamt of a New Pope named Francis.

That's statistically impressive.

Quote from: Caliga on March 15, 2013, 08:37:11 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 15, 2013, 07:50:06 AM
Some dude tweeted, on Feb 11 no less, that he dreamt of a New Pope named Francis.

That's statistically impressive.

:hmm:

Quote from: alfred russel on March 15, 2013, 08:36:09 AM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 15, 2013, 02:03:36 AM
Cool pic, Tim.

It just shows how the world has gone to shit.

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 08:39:09 AM
Though I do have to say I always wonder about people taking photos like that - especially when you run into things like someone filming video art pieces on their iPad or taking photos of paintings with their iPhones. Much better photos can be taken off the net and there isn't something very personal about a photo of a piece of art unlike a photo you've taken of a landmark you visited.

Quote from: Liep on March 15, 2013, 08:41:32 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 08:39:09 AM
Though I do have to say I always wonder about people taking photos like that - especially when you run into things like someone filming video art pieces on their iPad or taking photos of paintings with their iPhones. Much better photos can be taken off the net and there isn't something very personal about a photo of a piece of art unlike a photo you've taken of a landmark you visited.

I sometimes do that instead of writing it down if I want to remember the painting/artist . :p

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 15, 2013, 08:38:31 AM
Feb 11 is before Ben 16 announced he was quitting. I'm impressed that a month later, dude was proven right that quickly.

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 08:39:09 AM

Quote from: alfred russel on March 15, 2013, 08:36:09 AM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 15, 2013, 02:03:36 AM
Cool pic, Tim.

It just shows how the world has gone to shit.

Yeah I hate when people want to document things...

Though I do have to say I always wonder about people taking photos like that - especially when you run into things like someone filming video art pieces on their iPad or taking photos of paintings with their iPhones. Much better photos can be taken off the net and there isn't something very personal about a photo of a piece of art unlike a photo you've taken of a landmark you visited.

Quote from: alfred russel on March 15, 2013, 09:05:03 AM
My aversion to this type of thing is a product of a childhood where we would take roadtrips across the country, stop at the Grand Canyon, get out of the car to take a few snapshots, and drive on. Here we have a historical event, and a significant part of the focus of the crowd seems to have shifted to capturing the right image to update facebook/tweet out/blog.

No issue with taking a picture of a painting to look it up later. It does diminish the experience of viewing the Mona Lisa though to have a hoard of people pushing each other to get the best angle for a picture with their cell phone camera (aside from the Mona Lisa being a kind of lame painting anyway, but still). I don't think they are trying to take a picture to remember the painting to look up later.

Quote from: Caliga on March 15, 2013, 09:08:47 AM
It's an ego thing.  "Look how awesome I am, I can document I was in the square AT THE MOMENT THE POPE WAS ANNOUNCED.  Pay attention to me, I'm special!"

Quote from: Caliga on March 15, 2013, 08:50:24 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 15, 2013, 08:38:31 AM
Feb 11 is before Ben 16 announced he was quitting. I'm impressed that a month later, dude was proven right that quickly.

I'm just wondering what that has got to do with statistics.  Millions of idiots make inane tweets every day.  One of them is going to get something 'right' eventually. :)

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 15, 2013, 10:25:19 AM
When I went to the Louvre there was huge line of Japanese tourists waiting to pose next to the Mona Lisa, right beneath the sign that said "Do not take photographs of the paintings."

Quote from: Valmy on March 15, 2013, 10:29:03 AM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 15, 2013, 10:25:19 AM
When I went to the Louvre there was huge line of Japanese tourists waiting to pose next to the Mona Lisa, right beneath the sign that said "Do not take photographs of the paintings."

Maybe that was actually the point of the picture, to show they will not be held down by the Frenchman's rules.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 15, 2013, 10:25:19 AM
When I went to the Louvre there was huge line of Japanese tourists waiting to pose next to the Mona Lisa, right beneath the sign that said "Do not take photographs of the paintings."

Quote from: Martinus on March 15, 2013, 10:23:07 AM
I have a huge issue with people taking a picture of Mona Lisa - there are thousands of pictures of Mona Lisa available online (i.e. at the finger tips of anyone with a smart phone) with a much much better quality that anything you are able to take at the Louvre.

I never was a big fan of taking pictures of yourself/your friends near a famous monument, but at least there I can see the point as it gives you some sort of boasting rights.

When you take a picture of a famous painting or landmark (but not featuring yourself/your friends) then, unless you are some huge artistic photography buff who will make this picture really stunning, any single fucking postcard will give you a better picture of the object in question, so trying to take a picture of it is idiotic.

Not to mention, in my opinion, focusing on taking a picture rather than seeing it with your own eyes really takes away from the experience.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 15, 2013, 11:01:15 AM
Gotta be shopped. :mellow:

Quote from: Martinus on March 15, 2013, 10:47:18 AM
Crap. The more I read about this new Pope, the more I like him.  <_<

Quote from: Caliga on March 15, 2013, 11:34:16 AM
It's starting to seem like Benedict was a "cleansing the palate" kind of Pope.

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 11:39:01 AM

Quote from: Caliga on March 15, 2013, 11:34:16 AM
It's starting to seem like Benedict was a "cleansing the palate" kind of Pope.

:x :x :x

That is all.

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 12:02:04 PM
I have a messenger bag.

Quote from: Martinus on March 15, 2013, 12:45:14 PM

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 12:02:04 PM
I have a messenger bag.

They are called "faggot bags" in Polish slang. I see the trend is global.

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 12:50:23 PM

Quote from: Martinus on March 15, 2013, 12:45:14 PM

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 12:02:04 PM
I have a messenger bag.

They are called "faggot bags" in Polish slang. I see the trend is global.

Well yes I assume that gay American habits from the 90s eventually make it everywhere.

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 12:51:27 PM
If I wear it as a messenger bag, it just gets considered a large purse and there's no problem. :D

Quote from: 11B4V on March 15, 2013, 07:59:22 PM

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 12:51:27 PM
If I wear it as a messenger bag, it just gets considered a large purse and there's no problem. :D

Well it IS a purse. You could carry a good sized handgun in a purse like that.

Quote from: 11B4V on March 15, 2013, 07:59:22 PM

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 12:51:27 PM
If I wear it as a messenger bag, it just gets considered a large purse and there's no problem. :D

Well it IS a purse. You could carry a good sized handgun in a purse like that.

Quote from: Caliga on March 15, 2013, 11:34:16 AM
It's starting to seem like Benedict was a "cleansing the palate" kind of Pope.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 15, 2013, 09:25:55 PM

Quote from: Caliga on March 15, 2013, 11:34:16 AM
It's starting to seem like Benedict was a "cleansing the palate" kind of Pope.

Not really. I think to an extent what we're seeing is still Benedict's Church. He did a lot of the work that built I think the vision he and JP2 shared. Francis was a big fan of Ratzinger and, apparently, supported him in 2005. It's a change of style not of design - Paul VI to JPI springs to mind.

Clearly the media like him more but that's probably inevitable given the shameless hounding they gave Benedict.

There's been a story about his visit to St Mary Major. It is Cardinal Law's church in Rome (and where he has his grace and favour apartment) and apparently he met the Pope on his first day in the office. According to Italian reports he was informed that he wouldn't really be welcome but joined the other clergy of the church to welcome the Pope anyway. Francis greeted him, according to reports, grimly. On leaving the Italian press are reporting that he said 'I do not want Law in this church again' and the Vatican are now planning to remove him from his apartment to a cloistered monastery where he'll be permanently secluded. We'll see.

Edit: And still no-one's been reappointed to the Curia which makes it look more like a decision than an oversight.

Quote from: garbon on March 15, 2013, 08:30:43 PM
I prefer knives. :)

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 15, 2013, 01:37:12 AM
8 Years really makes a difference

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/577874_555336131153088_1035548107_n.jpg)

Quote from: Caliga on March 15, 2013, 10:16:19 PM
This shouldn't really be an issue anyway, because Law should be in prison in the United States. <_<

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 08:06:04 AM
I hope this Pope says gays are the spawn of Satan soon, as I am dangerously close to relapsing.  <_<

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 08:06:04 AM
I hope this Pope says gays are the spawn of Satan soon, as I am dangerously close to relapsing.  <_<

Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 08:19:27 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 08:06:04 AM
I hope this Pope says gays are the spawn of Satan soon, as I am dangerously close to relapsing.  <_<

So odd.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 08:20:47 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 08:19:27 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 08:06:04 AM
I hope this Pope says gays are the spawn of Satan soon, as I am dangerously close to relapsing.  <_<

So odd.

You can take the gay out of Poland, but you can't take Poland out of the gay.

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 08:29:29 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 08:20:47 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 08:19:27 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 08:06:04 AM
I hope this Pope says gays are the spawn of Satan soon, as I am dangerously close to relapsing.  <_<

So odd.

You can take the gay out of Poland, but you can't take Poland out of the gay.

Non-catholics will never get that.

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 09:29:17 AM
For people raised in Catholic countries, Catholicism is not just religion, but an integral part of your culture. A lot of Catholics also go to church and participate in religious ceremonies despite disagreeing with the official church doctrine not just on social issues, but often on points of religious doctrine (e.g. you may have people who consider themselves Catholics, but believe in reincarnation or think that hell does not exist).

Does it help to explain what I was talking about?

Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 09:42:42 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 09:29:17 AM
For people raised in Catholic countries, Catholicism is not just religion, but an integral part of your culture. A lot of Catholics also go to church and participate in religious ceremonies despite disagreeing with the official church doctrine not just on social issues, but often on points of religious doctrine (e.g. you may have people who consider themselves Catholics, but believe in reincarnation or think that hell does not exist).

Does it help to explain what I was talking about?

No not really as it doesn't answer my main question or rather skirts it. Are you saying that you believe in God and the saints but just have some exceptions to official doctrine with their stance on gays being a major stumbling block?

Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 10:30:24 AM
Okay, you're right - as a non-Catholic, I don't think I'll ever understand that. Though I suppose it could be akin to how I voluntarily go to church a few times a year despite not being religious.

Quote from: dps on March 19, 2013, 10:41:09 AM
Yeah, I don't quite get it either.  I mean, for Jews I get it--they were a heavily persecuted minority in most places, and even if they converted, they were still looked on as Jews and still persecuted, so it makes some sense that tended to still identify as Jews culturally, even if they weren't practicing Jews.  But while Catholics have certainly been persecuted in some countries at some times, it's not been on nearly the same level.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2013, 10:29:17 AM
Actually it was either Paul or Timothy that said salvation comes from faith.  :pope:

Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 10:31:12 AM
But then my partaking of said rituals has little to do about what the organizations think about my sexuality. ;)

Quote from: dps on March 19, 2013, 10:41:09 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 10:30:24 AM
Okay, you're right - as a non-Catholic, I don't think I'll ever understand that. Though I suppose it could be akin to how I voluntarily go to church a few times a year despite not being religious.

Yeah, I don't quite get it either.  I mean, for Jews I get it--they were a heavily persecuted minority in most places, and even if they converted, they were still looked on as Jews and still persecuted, so it makes some sense that tended to still identify as Jews culturally, even if they weren't practicing Jews.  But while Catholics have certainly been persecuted in some countries at some times, it's not been on nearly the same level.

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:50:05 AM
Neither Paul nor Timothy are really that big in the Catholic church (another reason why we are different from protestants: Bible? Not so important).

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2013, 10:52:50 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:50:05 AM
Neither Paul nor Timothy are really that big in the Catholic church (another reason why we are different from protestants: Bible? Not so important).

I hear you.

But it's not as if Martin Luther came up with some crazy new doctrine on his own.

Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 10:30:24 AM
Okay, you're right - as a non-Catholic, I don't think I'll ever understand that. Though I suppose it could be akin to how I voluntarily go to church a few times a year despite not being religious.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 19, 2013, 12:00:42 PM

Quote from: garbon on March 19, 2013, 10:30:24 AM
Okay, you're right - as a non-Catholic, I don't think I'll ever understand that. Though I suppose it could be akin to how I voluntarily go to church a few times a year despite not being religious.

I refuse to go except for weddings and funerals. It's a sticking point for me because I was constantly fighting(and losing) that battle during my teens.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 19, 2013, 02:45:46 PM
Out of curiosity, what happens with regard to the Pope's original citizenship? Do they become dual citizens and get a Vatican one too? Presumably, unless they're quitters like Benedict, they become VC residents for the rest of their lives, right?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2013, 10:52:50 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:50:05 AM
Neither Paul nor Timothy are really that big in the Catholic church (another reason why we are different from protestants: Bible? Not so important).

I hear you.

But it's not as if Martin Luther came up with some crazy new doctrine on his own.

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 04:14:43 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2013, 10:52:50 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:50:05 AM
Neither Paul nor Timothy are really that big in the Catholic church (another reason why we are different from protestants: Bible? Not so important).

I hear you.

But it's not as if Martin Luther came up with some crazy new doctrine on his own.

Well actually the whole notion that one could find truth in the Bible for themselves without the assistance of a priest was a crazy new doctrine - at least in the eyes of the Church.  Granted Lurther didnt develop that all himself but that is pretty much the core of Protestant belief.  And it is only with that kind of religious freedom that one can hold an interpretive view separate and apart from Church teaching.

Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2013, 05:26:00 PM
Then why did Protestant states suppress dissenters?  If the core belief is that the individual can find his own truth, why is the state enforcing a religious doctrine?

Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2013, 05:26:00 PM
Then why did Protestant states suppress dissenters?  If the core belief is that the individual can find his own truth, why is the state enforcing a religious doctrine?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 19, 2013, 07:23:24 PM
The French, maybe?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2013, 07:21:49 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2013, 05:26:00 PM
Then why did Protestant states suppress dissenters?  If the core belief is that the individual can find his own truth, why is the state enforcing a religious doctrine?

Who besides the English suppressed dissenting Protestants?  Honest question.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2013, 07:21:49 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2013, 05:26:00 PM
Then why did Protestant states suppress dissenters?  If the core belief is that the individual can find his own truth, why is the state enforcing a religious doctrine?

Who besides the English suppressed dissenting Protestants?  Honest question.

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 09:29:17 AM
For people raised in Catholic countries, Catholicism is not just religion, but an integral part of your culture. A lot of Catholics also go to church and participate in religious ceremonies despite disagreeing with the official church doctrine not just on social issues, but often on points of religious doctrine (e.g. you may have people who consider themselves Catholics, but believe in reincarnation or think that hell does not exist).

Does it help to explain what I was talking about?

QuoteBut it's not as if Martin Luther came up with some crazy new doctrine on his own.

QuoteYeah, but he was actually about going back to the Bible - something the Catholic church according to him at least departed from.

QuoteVatican citizenship is based on your office, so cardinals etc. typically only get it while they are actively working in the curia in Rome. Benedict became a dual citizen. In 1981 when he became a Roman cardinal, not when he was elected Pope. When you become stateless by losing Vatican citizenship, you'll automatically become an Italian citizen.

QuoteThen why did Protestant states suppress dissenters?  If the core belief is that the individual can find his own truth, why is the state enforcing a religious doctrine?

QuoteWho besides the English suppressed dissenting Protestants?  Honest question.

Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2013, 05:26:00 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 04:14:43 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2013, 10:52:50 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:50:05 AM
Neither Paul nor Timothy are really that big in the Catholic church (another reason why we are different from protestants: Bible? Not so important).

I hear you.

But it's not as if Martin Luther came up with some crazy new doctrine on his own.

Well actually the whole notion that one could find truth in the Bible for themselves without the assistance of a priest was a crazy new doctrine - at least in the eyes of the Church.  Granted Lurther didnt develop that all himself but that is pretty much the core of Protestant belief.  And it is only with that kind of religious freedom that one can hold an interpretive view separate and apart from Church teaching.

Then why did Protestant states suppress dissenters?  If the core belief is that the individual can find his own truth, why is the state enforcing a religious doctrine?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2013, 10:52:50 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:50:05 AM
Neither Paul nor Timothy are really that big in the Catholic church (another reason why we are different from protestants: Bible? Not so important).

I hear you.

But it's not as if Martin Luther came up with some crazy new doctrine on his own.

QuoteExcept that, as Catholics argue, James 2:24 contradicts justification through faith alone:  "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."  So, Luther was simply taking one part of the Bible whilst ignoring others.  Just one of the many problems Catholics would argue are inherent in the sola scriptura approach.

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 07:52:29 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on March 19, 2013, 05:26:00 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 19, 2013, 04:14:43 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 19, 2013, 10:52:50 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 10:50:05 AM
Neither Paul nor Timothy are really that big in the Catholic church (another reason why we are different from protestants: Bible? Not so important).

I hear you.

But it's not as if Martin Luther came up with some crazy new doctrine on his own.

Well actually the whole notion that one could find truth in the Bible for themselves without the assistance of a priest was a crazy new doctrine - at least in the eyes of the Church.  Granted Lurther didnt develop that all himself but that is pretty much the core of Protestant belief.  And it is only with that kind of religious freedom that one can hold an interpretive view separate and apart from Church teaching.

Then why did Protestant states suppress dissenters?  If the core belief is that the individual can find his own truth, why is the state enforcing a religious doctrine?

This is one of your more odd observations lately.  The religious wars and persecutions of the period are a bit more complex than that.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 19, 2013, 08:04:08 PM
This is where, for early Protestants, and still for Lutherans and Anglicans, Augustine steps in:
'If Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified? . . . Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:3; Gen. 15:6). Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.'
Luther used that to compare faith and works to heat and light, they can't be separated. The works are necessary for salvation, the faith for justification.

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 19, 2013, 09:02:55 PMContrast that to the Catholic position of needing faith informed by charity, and you have a very fine distinction indeed. 

QuoteI'm no theologian obviously, but in my view that distinction is almost so meaningless as to be misleading in practice:  "faith alone is all you need.... but you will do good works if you have faith" implies that without good works you aren't truly justified in the first place. 

QuoteSo, you're still left with the greater question of the inherent contradictions of the sola scriptura approach, which informed Luther's fetishizing of the faith alone passage.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 19, 2013, 09:41:19 PM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 19, 2013, 09:02:55 PMContrast that to the Catholic position of needing faith informed by charity, and you have a very fine distinction indeed. 

I think that's true of much theology :lol: 

QuoteThe other key difference is that faith in the Protestant tradition is an event. To use the modern Evangelical phrase, you accept Christ, which is the defining moment.

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 20, 2013, 12:34:23 AM
Secondly, if we accept that the common claim that the Christian God is pure love and justice,

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 20, 2013, 12:38:17 AM

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on March 20, 2013, 12:34:23 AM
Secondly, if we accept that the common claim that the Christian God is pure love and justice,

:lol:

The asshole Calvinist God seems more realistic given the world he's said to have created.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 19, 2013, 09:41:19 PMThe Catholic perspective is that there's a body of law and the sacraments and that faith is demonstrated through following that and that it's sin not the state of your conscience that distances you from God.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 19, 2013, 07:51:15 PM

Quote from: Martinus on March 19, 2013, 09:29:17 AM
For people raised in Catholic countries, Catholicism is not just religion, but an integral part of your culture. A lot of Catholics also go to church and participate in religious ceremonies despite disagreeing with the official church doctrine not just on social issues, but often on points of religious doctrine (e.g. you may have people who consider themselves Catholics, but believe in reincarnation or think that hell does not exist).

Does it help to explain what I was talking about?

Yep. Not just Catholic countries but Catholic cultures. Look at me and CdM :lol:

Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2013, 01:24:52 AM
Exactly - which was my original point that you can be Catholic and a believer without having an internal conviction that God exists, as long as you act as if He did.

Plus, faith to me is more of a continuum than a binary condition - it can be fanned or it can be doused. Since I made a conscious decision I do not want to be a part of the church that rejects me, I have been dousing my faith with a lot of water - but I suspect this process is reversible.

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 07:53:13 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2013, 01:24:52 AM
Exactly - which was my original point that you can be Catholic and a believer without having an internal conviction that God exists, as long as you act as if He did.

Plus, faith to me is more of a continuum than a binary condition - it can be fanned or it can be doused. Since I made a conscious decision I do not want to be a part of the church that rejects me, I have been dousing my faith with a lot of water - but I suspect this process is reversible.

What are you believing in then if you don't believe in God?

QuotePope Francis Once Supported Gay Civil Unions, But Only As the 'Lesser of Two Evils'

When it was announced that as pope, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio would be taking the name Francis, after the reformer Francis of Assisi, many briefly got their hopes up before being informed that while he might address corruption in the Vatican, Pope Francis probably won't be reversing any of the church's controversial positions on social issues. However, the New York Times reports that at one point Bergoglio did take a position on gay rights that initially sounds surprisingly liberal. When Argentina was about to legalize gay marriage in 2010, Bergoglio urged the church to support civil unions for gay couples — before he become the face of the church's opposition to the law.

Cardinal Bergoglio made the suggestion at a meeting of Argentina's bishops in 2010, arguing that since the gay marriage bill was almost certain to pass, the church should try to compromise by backing civil unions instead. Bergoglio described it as the "lesser of two evils," according to his authorized biographer, Sergio Rubin, but the bishops voted against his proposal.

Marcelo Márquez, a gay rights leader and theologian, tells the Times that Bergoglio responded quickly and was very respectful when he sent a letter challenging him on the issue around the same time. In a phone call, Bergoglio "told me that homosexuals need to have recognized rights and that he supported civil unions, but not same-sex marriage," says Márquez.

However, Esteban Paulón, president of the Argentine Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, and Transsexuals, notes that while Bergoglio might have struck a conciliatory tone in private, "He took a role, in public, that was determinedly combative," and said some "terrible things." In addition to backing large protests against same-sex marriage, he described the bill in a letter as a "destructive pretension against the plan of God" and argued that gay adoptions discriminate against children. Later he called gay marriage "the devil's work."

The incident does suggest that on social issues, Pope Francis might be somewhat more willing to compromise than his predecessors. However, it isn't hard to look progressive when the previous pope used a Christmas address to describe how homosexuality is destroying the very "essence of the human creature."

Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2013, 11:50:13 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 07:53:13 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2013, 01:24:52 AM
Exactly - which was my original point that you can be Catholic and a believer without having an internal conviction that God exists, as long as you act as if He did.

Plus, faith to me is more of a continuum than a binary condition - it can be fanned or it can be doused. Since I made a conscious decision I do not want to be a part of the church that rejects me, I have been dousing my faith with a lot of water - but I suspect this process is reversible.

What are you believing in then if you don't believe in God?

It's essentially Pascal's wager.

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 11:53:49 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2013, 11:50:13 AM

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 07:53:13 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2013, 01:24:52 AM
Exactly - which was my original point that you can be Catholic and a believer without having an internal conviction that God exists, as long as you act as if He did.

Plus, faith to me is more of a continuum than a binary condition - it can be fanned or it can be doused. Since I made a conscious decision I do not want to be a part of the church that rejects me, I have been dousing my faith with a lot of water - but I suspect this process is reversible.

What are you believing in then if you don't believe in God?

It's essentially Pascal's wager.

That God will look the other way if you attend his house of worship but don't believe in him? :huh:

Quote from: Martinus on March 20, 2013, 11:56:45 AM
The God will not "look the other way", but as Sheilbh pointed out, God is not in the business of rewarding or punishing you for the state of mind that you have no control over - but whether you have faith, which expresses itself through acts of worship, not through a mental state.

Obviously, you can't do it with a point of view of being a fraud, but it is enough to "want to believe" to be saved - you do not need to actually believe.

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 11:59:11 AM
God no wonder we have crazy protestant fundies here in the US. Catholic Church sounds worse than Church of England/Unitarians as at least those latter two groups are a bit more honest with their charade.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 12:39:18 PM
Praying is dialogue directed at God.  You can't pray unless you believe God exists.

Quote from: fahdiz on March 20, 2013, 11:51:48 AM
Marti lacks the courage of his convictions.

Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 12:47:05 PM
So all those Catholics praying for intercession from a Saint aren't doing it right?

Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 12:41:33 PM

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 11:59:11 AM
God no wonder we have crazy protestant fundies here in the US. Catholic Church sounds worse than Church of England/Unitarians as at least those latter two groups are a bit more honest with their charade.

Disagreeing with protestant fundies' views on religion does not mean you are a charade.  Man they have brainwashed everybody, it drives me nuts.

Quote from: Martinus on March 16, 2013, 01:36:01 AM

Quote from: Caliga on March 15, 2013, 10:16:19 PM
This shouldn't really be an issue anyway, because Law should be in prison in the United States. <_<

Yeah. Boohoo, the Pope gives cold shoulder to a criminal who has a cushion retirement in the church.

The low standards the catholic church is measured against over these things reminds me of an old joke about why Stalin is the most charitable man in the world for giving a candy bar to a starving kid who asked for food - because he could have ordered the kid executed instead.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 12:53:56 PM

Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 12:47:05 PM
So all those Catholics praying for intercession from a Saint aren't doing it right?

You're splitting hairs.

Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 01:30:21 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 12:53:56 PM

Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 12:47:05 PM
So all those Catholics praying for intercession from a Saint aren't doing it right?

You're splitting hairs.

Not really.  Buddhists also pray and a god is not always a part of their religion.  Besides that is ridiculous, obviously you can pray regardless of what you believe.  You just sit down and start praying.  What you believe about your prayers is a separate issue.

Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 01:30:21 PM
Not really.  Buddhists also pray and a god is not always a part of their religion. 

QuoteBesides that is ridiculous, obviously you can pray regardless of what you believe.  You just sit down and start praying.  What you believe about your prayers is a separate issue.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 01:39:04 PM
Minayana Buddhists don't pray, they chant while meditating.  Hinayana Buddhists do pray because they've deified Buddha. it might be the other way around.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 01:39:04 PM
Not much that I can respond to here.

Quote from: Valmy on March 20, 2013, 02:07:49 PM
For me personally it is a practice of gratitude, I thank God for everything that is good in my life.  The fact I do not really care whether or not God exists has never even occured to me as an issue actually.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 12:39:18 PM
Praying is dialogue directed at God.  You can't pray unless you believe God exists.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 20, 2013, 03:01:35 PM
Only if you're on your own. The mass is a prayer, confession involves prayer. Failing to believe or having doubts or not believing are venial sins, so don't distance you from God like lack of faith does for Protties or mortal sins for Catholics.

And again, what better example of faith - trust - than participating in prayer even if you're not sure that it goes anywhere?

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 20, 2013, 03:01:35 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 12:39:18 PM
Praying is dialogue directed at God.  You can't pray unless you believe God exists.

Only if you're on your own. The mass is a prayer...

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 03:06:49 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 20, 2013, 03:01:35 PM
Only if you're on your own. The mass is a prayer, confession involves prayer. Failing to believe or having doubts or not believing are venial sins, so don't distance you from God like lack of faith does for Protties or mortal sins for Catholics.

And again, what better example of faith - trust - than participating in prayer even if you're not sure that it goes anywhere?

Go ask your priest who he's talking to when he says a prayer during mass.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 12:39:18 PM
Praying is dialogue directed at God.  You can't pray unless you believe God exists.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 20, 2013, 03:01:35 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 12:39:18 PM
Praying is dialogue directed at God.  You can't pray unless you believe God exists.

Only if you're on your own. The mass is a prayer, confession involves prayer. Failing to believe or having doubts or not believing are venial sins, so don't distance you from God like lack of faith does for Protties or mortal sins for Catholics.

And again, what better example of faith - trust - than participating in prayer even if you're not sure that it goes anywhere?

Quote from: PRC on March 20, 2013, 03:46:22 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 12:39:18 PM
Praying is dialogue directed at God.  You can't pray unless you believe God exists.

Prayer is wishful optimism and hoping for something good to happen.  Crossing your fingers and saying "please work, please work" when you try to play SimCity5 is prayer.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 04:06:12 PM
On the subject of prayer, a couple times i attended service at Bill and Hillary's church.  Minister asked if there were any prayer requests (very common in Prot churches for you mackeral snappers).  Bad.  Idea.  It was like an express lobbying session.  "God please grant our leaders the wisdom to end the war in Serbia."  "God please protect our reproductive rights."  Etc., etc.

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 20, 2013, 04:08:11 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 04:06:12 PM
On the subject of prayer, a couple times i attended service at Bill and Hillary's church.  Minister asked if there were any prayer requests (very common in Prot churches for you mackeral snappers).  Bad.  Idea.  It was like an express lobbying session.  "God please grant our leaders the wisdom to end the war in Serbia."  "God please protect our reproductive rights."  Etc., etc.

:lol:

That is a good example of why Mass is a spiritual event whereas Protestant type churches are more.... worldly.

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 04:09:56 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 20, 2013, 04:08:11 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 04:06:12 PM
On the subject of prayer, a couple times i attended service at Bill and Hillary's church.  Minister asked if there were any prayer requests (very common in Prot churches for you mackeral snappers).  Bad.  Idea.  It was like an express lobbying session.  "God please grant our leaders the wisdom to end the war in Serbia."  "God please protect our reproductive rights."  Etc., etc.

:lol:

That is a good example of why Mass is a spiritual event whereas Protestant type churches are more.... worldly.

Pfft, the Catholic church I went to in the East Village didn't feel very spiritual. They gave us printed out version of the bible passages but then when priest "read" those same passages, he broke it down into simple English. <_<

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 20, 2013, 04:12:19 PM

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 04:09:56 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 20, 2013, 04:08:11 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 04:06:12 PM
On the subject of prayer, a couple times i attended service at Bill and Hillary's church.  Minister asked if there were any prayer requests (very common in Prot churches for you mackeral snappers).  Bad.  Idea.  It was like an express lobbying session.  "God please grant our leaders the wisdom to end the war in Serbia."  "God please protect our reproductive rights."  Etc., etc.

:lol:

That is a good example of why Mass is a spiritual event whereas Protestant type churches are more.... worldly.

Pfft, the Catholic church I went to in the East Village didn't feel very spiritual. They gave us printed out version of the bible passages but then when priest "read" those same passages, he broke it down into simple English. <_<

My view is influenced by viewing a real Mass.  What is it with you.  You have never had real maple syrup and now it appears you have never attended a real Mass.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 04:06:12 PM
On the subject of prayer, a couple times i attended service at Bill and Hillary's church.  Minister asked if there were any prayer requests (very common in Prot churches for you mackeral snappers).  Bad.  Idea.  It was like an express lobbying session.  "God please grant our leaders the wisdom to end the war in Serbia."  "God please protect our reproductive rights."  Etc., etc.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 03:06:49 PM
Go ask your priest who he's talking to when he says a prayer during mass.

QuoteAgain I think it is a bit odd to say that one is a Christian if one doesn't believe in God or something along the lines of Jesus dying for our sins.

QuoteOne of the most beautiful and moving things I have witnessed was a Mass in the Cathedral in Assisi - a close second was one I saw in Notre Dame in Paris.  There is just something about all those voices singing and praying in unison and the tempo of the Mass that is very moving.  Nothing that occurs in Prostestant churches comes close.  Although they also sing it is not the same at all.

QuoteGotta love DC.  Was this a Methodist service?

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 04:18:56 PM
Oh and I have had real maple syrup and I don't like it. :P

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 20, 2013, 04:25:22 PM
If you had a Jew who didn't really believed but followed Mosaic law, would they still be Jewish?

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 20, 2013, 04:25:49 PM

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 04:18:56 PM
Oh and I have had real maple syrup and I don't like it. :P

Your judgment will forevermore be in doubt.

Quote from: derspiess on March 20, 2013, 04:23:46 PM
:lol:  Gotta love DC.  Was this a Methodist service?

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 04:28:08 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 20, 2013, 04:25:49 PM

Quote from: garbon on March 20, 2013, 04:18:56 PM
Oh and I have had real maple syrup and I don't like it. :P

Your judgment will forevermore be in doubt.

I can't say I care much what Canada thinks about me.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 04:30:09 PM

Quote from: derspiess on March 20, 2013, 04:23:46 PM
:lol:  Gotta love DC.  Was this a Methodist service?

Foundry United Methodist.  On 16th above Logan IIRC.  Nice church.

Quote from: derspiess on March 20, 2013, 04:35:01 PM
Well I'm sure you know it's different for normal Methodist churches outside the beltway.  It's always a mention of some old person someone knows, or some woman going through a crisis of some sort.  But it always made me feel a little uncomfortable even at that and I'm glad my current church doesn't do it.

Quote from: derspiess on March 20, 2013, 04:35:01 PM
Well I'm sure you know it's different for normal Methodist churches outside the beltway.  It's always a mention of some old person someone knows, or some woman going through a crisis of some sort.  But it always made me feel a little uncomfortable even at that and I'm glad my current church doesn't do it.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 20, 2013, 04:06:12 PM
On the subject of prayer, a couple times i attended service at Bill and Hillary's church.  Minister asked if there were any prayer requests (very common in Prot churches for you mackeral snappers).  Bad.  Idea.  It was like an express lobbying session.  "God please grant our leaders the wisdom to end the war in Serbia."  "God please protect our reproductive rights."  Etc., etc.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 20, 2013, 06:01:17 PM
So no love for the Redskins, who actually needed the prayers?   :(

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 20, 2013, 06:22:40 PM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 20, 2013, 06:01:17 PM
So no love for the Redskins, who actually needed the prayers?   :(

For that, you'll need a young priest and an old priest.

QuotePope Francis To Hold Holy Thursday Mass In Casal Del Marmo Youth Jail

Of all places one would expect to find Pope Francis celebrating a major ceremony before Easter, a youth prison probably ranks pretty low on the list.

Yet that's precisely where Pope Francis will celebrate Holy Thursday next week, washing and kissing prisoners' feet at Rome's Casal del Marmo jail for minors.

The move breaks from tradition set by Pope Francis' predecessors, who typically have held the Mass of the Lord's Supper in either St. Peter's Basilica or the Basilica of St. John Lateran, reports Catholic News Service.

The service involves washing and kissing the feet of 12 people and is intended to commemorate Jesus' humility toward his 12 apostles.

In Francis' previous capacity as Argentina's Cardinal Bergoglio, he often held the Holy Thursday ceremony in jails, hospitals or other locations associated with the poor and infirm.

According to Agence France-Presse, Pope Francis has spoken in favor of narrowing the gap between laypeople and the Church.

Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2013, 03:08:40 AM
Edit: One comment at HuffPo: "Sounds like a kid in a candy store".  :D

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 22, 2013, 03:34:36 AM

Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2013, 03:08:40 AM
Edit: One comment at HuffPo: "Sounds like a kid in a candy store".  :D

Bet you're jelly.

Quote from: Syt on March 22, 2013, 07:58:46 AM
Might as well post this here. An old catholic priest in Austria is sent into early retirement by his diocese. He's also banned from preaching over Easter.

In the past couple of years he has repeatedly referred to gays as "perverts", "disturbed homos", and that according to the Bible gaydom was a disease that needed to be exterminated. He also made inflammatory remarked towards Islam. He'd been warned several times, but his superiors decided to pull the plug.

Even though the mayor and a large number of the people in his town of 1600 support his view.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 22, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
So, he doesn't have to work anymore and gets to retire early. Nice.

Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
Some thing called "meals on wheels"?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 02:27:52 PM
I think he meant to convey, in his own inimitable grably way, that meals on wheels are fairly well known.

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 02:37:18 PM
Now that I think about it, he also had to christen babies and counsel young folks who were thinking of getting married.

I guess he did have alot of shit to do, but none of it seems like 'work' to me, still.  It actually seems like it'd be fun and I'd consider doing it myself if there was a religion out there that expelled everyone once they turned 65.  Pretending to believe in something wouldn't be so tough, I don't think. :cool:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 02:27:52 PM
I think he meant to convey, in his own inimitable grably way, that meals on wheels are fairly well known.

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 02:34:58 PM
I'd never heard of it except when I lived in Pennsylvania.  I thought maybe it was a PA thing only.  Maybe people in Massachusetts and Kentucky just don't care about our seniors. :sleep:

Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 02:40:38 PM
Well he did also have to run mass every day and write an inspiring speech every Sunday though.  That sounds like a pain.

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 02:44:38 PM
Dude, what?  He was a Lutheran pastor.  Lutherans don't go to church every day.  They go on Sunday, period.  They don't even do that crazyass Wednesday night shit like the Baptists do.

Quote from: Syt on March 22, 2013, 02:43:05 PM
Cal's anecdotes make me want to watch Adam's Apples again.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 02:46:39 PM
I believe he was, in his own inimitable Valmastic manner, talking about the Papist.

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 02:46:40 PM

Quote from: Syt on March 22, 2013, 02:43:05 PM
Cal's anecdotes make me want to watch Adam's Apples again.

One time when I was like four, I asked my grandpa if he had a penis.  He said 'If I didn't, you wouldn't be here' and my grandma started cracking up.  They told that story over and over again to everyone else in the family, and he somehow managed to work that into one of his sermons even.  That's not one of his that I managed to hear, fortunately. :cool:

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 02:47:08 PM
I don't care about that guy anymore.  It's all about Cal now.

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 02:44:38 PM
Dude, what?  He was a Lutheran pastor.  Lutherans don't go to church every day.  They go on Sunday, period.  They don't even do that crazyass Wednesday night shit like the Baptists do.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 02:46:39 PM
I believe he was, in his own inimitable Valmastic manner, talking about the Papist.

Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 02:58:55 PM
I have an inimitable Valmastic manner? :blush:

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 02:52:08 PM
I'm kind of curious how he managed to do it and manage to not be fired by the congregation. :hmm:

Quote from: mongers on March 22, 2013, 02:58:43 PM
Is Cal ever going to stop remembering extra things his grandpa did ?   :hmm:

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:02:29 PM
Well, as long as he doesn't pull a full Jim Morrison and actually demonstrate said organ ... I just assume everyone in the audience was tuning out whatever he had to say and so didn't get the reference.  :D

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 03:03:00 PM

Quote from: mongers on March 22, 2013, 02:58:43 PM
Is Cal ever going to stop remembering extra things his grandpa did ?   :hmm:

I think I may have it all now, actually:

* throw water on babies
* talk to people about getting married
* marry people
* comfort old people scared of death
* funerals
* write sermons and copy other guys' sermons
* meals on wheels
* Sunday services

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 03:06:26 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:02:29 PM
Well, as long as he doesn't pull a full Jim Morrison and actually demonstrate said organ ... I just assume everyone in the audience was tuning out whatever he had to say and so didn't get the reference.  :D

I remember being bored out of my mind during his sermons. :blush:  I used to memorize the maps in the back of the Bible since I've always loved geography. :showoff:  He had a good speaking voice--very booming and authoritative--but was a pretty bad singer and Lutheran pastors have to sing as well as speak during services.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 03:09:10 PM
@ Cal: Like during the hymns, or are there parts of the service that need to be chanted/sung?

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:13:18 PM
There is nothing quite like the Jewish ceremonies my mom made me attend as a kid - 3 solid hours long (or longer), conducted almost entirely in a language nobody understood (namely, Hebrew).

The only thing keeping me sane was reading the Bibles they had in the pews. I got a very good Biblical education out of it. To this day, I'm pretty good with OT biblical references.  :lol:

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:13:18 PM

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 03:06:26 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:02:29 PM
Well, as long as he doesn't pull a full Jim Morrison and actually demonstrate said organ ... I just assume everyone in the audience was tuning out whatever he had to say and so didn't get the reference.  :D

I remember being bored out of my mind during his sermons. :blush:  I used to memorize the maps in the back of the Bible since I've always loved geography. :showoff:  He had a good speaking voice--very booming and authoritative--but was a pretty bad singer and Lutheran pastors have to sing as well as speak during services.

There is nothing quite like the Jewish ceremonies my mom made me attend as a kid - 3 solid hours long (or longer), conducted almost entirely in a language nobody understood (namely, Hebrew).

The only thing keeping me sane was reading the Bibles they had in the pews. I got a very good Biblical education out of it. To this day, I'm pretty good with OT biblical references.  :lol:

Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 03:15:53 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:13:18 PM
There is nothing quite like the Jewish ceremonies my mom made me attend as a kid - 3 solid hours long (or longer), conducted almost entirely in a language nobody understood (namely, Hebrew).

The only thing keeping me sane was reading the Bibles they had in the pews. I got a very good Biblical education out of it. To this day, I'm pretty good with OT biblical references.  :lol:

Man that is a novel way to get kids to read the Bible.  I guess in Israel they get to enjoy ceremonies in their own language.

Quote from: mongers on March 22, 2013, 03:20:23 PM
Kinda odd really, what were you parents thinking ?  It couldn't have been to instil the faith in you, as it seem predetermined to bore you.

And the culture is a given, so maybe they wanted you to be Not a religiously observant person ? :unsure:

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:30:24 PM

Quote from: mongers on March 22, 2013, 03:20:23 PM
Kinda odd really, what were you parents thinking ?  It couldn't have been to instil the faith in you, as it seem predetermined to bore you.

And the culture is a given, so maybe they wanted you to be Not a religiously observant person ? :unsure:

Nope. Judaism isn't really as big on faith, as on doing the stuff you should be doing. You are "observant" if you do the right rituals, never mind WTF you actually believe. Hence, reading the right mumbo-jumbo is cool, even if no-one understands it. Presumably God understands it, and your attendance is noted, if not my him personally, given he's the figment of the early Iron Age imagination, at least by everyone else in the community.

In any event, translating it doesn't make it any more edifying. It is mostly various blessings on the diety and rituals of appeasement, repeated ad nauseum. God, you are great, king of the universe, thank you for creating bread. God, you are great, king of the universe, thank you for creating wine ...

Quote from: mongers on March 22, 2013, 03:43:05 PM

But you aren't particularly observant are you.  :D

QuoteOdd, the way you describe it, one of Judaism son/daughter religions seems to have latched to how you describe the rituals in quite a big way.

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:58:50 PM

Quote from: mongers on March 22, 2013, 03:43:05 PM

But you aren't particularly observant are you.  :D

Neither was my mother. Both my parents (my dad in theory being Christian) thought religion was nonsense, except for socially. So did both sets of grandparents.  :lol:

In my own strange way, I'm more religious than literally generations of my family, both sides.

QuoteOdd, the way you describe it, one of Judaism son/daughter religions seems to have latched to how you describe the rituals in quite a big way.

You mean that whole Christian thing about Judaism being a bunch of empty rituals?

In one sense it's a fair cop - Judaism is simply more focused on ritual that (at least early) Christianity.

However, that has nothing to do with the ethical content of Judaism, which exists quite apart from the ritual stuff, and has always, at least to some thinkers, been linked to the ethic or reciprocity (that is, the "Golden Rule").

There is a famous anecdote told of Rabbi Hillel (who lived roughly contemporary with Jesus - well, within a century or so). A non-Jew asked him to describe the teachings of the Torah, but with this restrction: he had to do it during the time he could stand on one foot.

His answer was something like "do not do to others what you would not want to have done to yourself. That's the whole of the teachings and the law; the rest is commentaries. Go and learn".

The key to understanding Judaism is that it is, in fact, and extremely well-thought-out religious and philosophical system that has been elaborated and refined by some of the world's great intellects over centuries  - but that just happens to be based on a religion invented by a bunch of vicious, illiterate, sheep-herding early Iron Age bedouin types, featuring a deity who, in the earliest stories about him, acts just like a powerful, angry, paranoid tribal chieftan.   ;)

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 02:37:18 PM
if there was a religion out there that expelled everyone once they turned 65. 

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 03:06:26 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:02:29 PM
Well, as long as he doesn't pull a full Jim Morrison and actually demonstrate said organ ... I just assume everyone in the audience was tuning out whatever he had to say and so didn't get the reference.  :D

I remember being bored out of my mind during his sermons. :blush:  I used to memorize the maps in the back of the Bible since I've always loved geography. :showoff:  He had a good speaking voice--very booming and authoritative--but was a pretty bad singer and Lutheran pastors have to sing as well as speak during services.

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:22:45 PM

Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 03:15:53 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 03:13:18 PM
There is nothing quite like the Jewish ceremonies my mom made me attend as a kid - 3 solid hours long (or longer), conducted almost entirely in a language nobody understood (namely, Hebrew).

The only thing keeping me sane was reading the Bibles they had in the pews. I got a very good Biblical education out of it. To this day, I'm pretty good with OT biblical references.  :lol:

Man that is a novel way to get kids to read the Bible.  I guess in Israel they get to enjoy ceremonies in their own language.

Fun fact: I was watching Museum Secrets yesterday and they did an episode on the Israeli National Museum - one story-segement was on the Mr. Spock Vulcan handsign-Cohenim thing.

The strange part: they found one of the very earliest written Hebrew religious texts on a small, rolled-up metallic amulet. When it was (painstakingly) unrolled and translated, it read the Cohenim priestly benediction, essentally if loosely translated as: "live long and prosper".  :lol:

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 01:46:24 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 22, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
So, he doesn't have to work anymore and gets to retire early. Nice.

Did he ever have to 'work' in the first place? :hmm:

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 04:57:22 PM
FYI the vulcan hand thingy actually comes right out of Judaism too.  Leonard Nimoy was giving a shout-out to his peepz with that one. :showoff:

Quote from: dps on March 22, 2013, 06:18:46 PM

Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 01:46:24 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 22, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
So, he doesn't have to work anymore and gets to retire early. Nice.

Did he ever have to 'work' in the first place? :hmm:

While certainly clergy don't typically do a lot of physical work, anything that you have to do even when you don't want to has a "work" aspect to it.  And probably the worst thing about being a clergyman (from my POV) would be that in a sense, you're never off work.  If nothing else, you're essentially on-call 24/7 (at least in most mainstream Christian denominations in the US).

Quote from: Caliga on March 23, 2013, 06:25:40 AM
:frusty:

I.  DO.  NOT.  WORK.  IN.  HR.

Quote from: Zanza on March 23, 2013, 11:40:24 AM
Francis looks bored and as if is he is thinking of something else.