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QuoteMarines posed with flag resembling Nazi SS logo in Afghanistan
Scout snipers in the Marine Corps shown with a flag bearing an "SS" similar in design to one used in Germany by the SS, a paramlitary force that operated under the Nazi party.
By NBC News, msnbc.com and news services
SAN DIEGO -- The U.S. Marine Corps confirmed Thursday that a sniper team in Afghanistan posed for a photograph in front of a flag with a logo resembling that of the notorious Nazi SS.
Use of the SS symbol is not acceptable, and the Marine Corps has addressed the issue, Lt. Col. Stewart Upton said in a statement. He did not specify what action was taken.
Upton said the Marines in the photograph, posted on an Internet blog, are no longer with the unit. The picture was taken in September 2010 in Sangin province, Afghanistan.
The photo shows a flag with what appear to be the letters "SS" in the shape of jagged lightning bolts. The symbol resembles that used by SS units in World War II.
Another photograph, which showed a stylized "SS" on a rifle held by a Marine, also recently began circulating, the Marine Corps Times reported.
The SS, or Schutzstaffel, was the police and military force of the Nazi Party, which was distinct from the general army. Members pledged an oath of loyalty to Adolf Hitler. SS units were held responsible for many war crimes and played an integral role in the extermination of millions of Jews along with gypsies and other people classed as undesirables. The SS was declared to be a criminal organization at the Nuremberg war crime trials.
The Knights Armament Company blog published the photo in May 2011, and attributed it to Tayler Jerome, of the 1st recon BN Charlie Co.
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation in Washington D.C., which found the picture online and alerted the Marine Corps Times, said it was outraged and wants a full investigation.
Foundation officer Mikey Weinstein said he has been flooded with calls from former Marines offended by the photo and from one member of his organization who is an Auschwitz survivor.
"This needs to be fully investigated. This is a complete and total outrage," he said.
War stresses to blame in Marine urination video?
Weinstein said his organization was sending a letter to the head of the Marine Corps and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta.
Master Gunnery Sgt. Mark Oliva, a spokesman at Camp Pendleton, Calif., said the photo was brought to the attention of the 1 Marine Expeditionary Force inspector general in November, and he found there was no intent on the part of the Marines to identify themselves with a racist organization.
Oliva said the investigation found that the SS symbol was meant to identify the Marines as scout snipers, not Nazis, but it was nonetheless not acceptable.
This is the second time this year the Marine Corps has had to do damage control for its troops' actions.
The Marine Corps is also investigating a separate group of Marines recorded on video urinating on the dead bodies of Taliban fighters.
Here is Upton's statement on the SS symbol, also called "runes." It was emailed to msnbc.com by Capt. Gregory Wolf, Marine Corps spokesman.
In November, the I MEF Inspector General became aware of the "SS" flag photo. They then received confirmation from the 1st Recon Battalion Commanding Officer in Afghanistan in November 2011 that several of the personnel in the photo were from 1st Recon Bn from the OEF 10.2 deployment (Afghanistan deployment in 2010). These Marines are no longer with the command. 1st Recon Bn is deployed forward again, but none of the personnel in the photo are still in the unit.
Certainly, the use of the "SS runes" is not acceptable and Scout Snipers have been addressed concerning this issue ("SS runes" are prohibited from use as a symbol or any other use).
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/09/10364262-marines-posed-with-flag-resembling-nazi-ss-logo-in-afghanistan
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Will Muslims see this as a bad thing or a good thing?
Partially covered Kiss flag. BFD :rolleyes:
What were they thinking? :rolleyes:
It's nice that the Nazis are starting to lose their status as ultimate, untouchable evil.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 09, 2012, 04:13:30 PM
Will Muslims see this as a bad thing or a good thing?
"Hmm... I like their Jew-killing policy, but not their Muslim-killing policy."
Where Hortense at?
Good thing that only resembles an SS flag, because had they chosen two runic S's then it would seem a lot closer...
Quote from: The Brain on February 09, 2012, 04:15:16 PM
Partially covered Kiss flag. BFD :rolleyes:
Damn it, I was gonna say that :lol:
I can imagine that a lot of people who are not into history (that's at least 95% of the population) don't know what the flag means.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
I can imagine that a lot of people who are not into history (that's at least 95% of the population) don't know what the flag means.
Possibly, but they wouldn't be US marines.
What would R. Lee Ermy say?
Quote from: Lucidor on February 09, 2012, 04:20:33 PM
What were they thinking? :rolleyes:
"There's no such thing as bad PR"?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 09, 2012, 04:13:30 PM
Will Muslims see this as a bad thing or a good thing?
I think this will be the first time one of these "scandals" will enrage Americans more then then the Muslims.
I don't think the flag looks all that much like the SS logo at all. No deaths head. No circle. Just the lighning bolt "SS" that does in fact fit just fine with "Scout-Sniper".
Much ado about nothing at all, as usual.
Can't tell if serious.
Sniper unit will have white on black counter for a Afghan wargame.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
I can imagine that a lot of people who are not into history (that's at least 95% of the population) don't know what the flag means.
Yep. Soldiers aren't known for being the brightest bunch.
Quote from: Berkut on February 09, 2012, 08:12:05 PM
I don't think the flag looks all that much like the SS logo at all. No deaths head. No circle. Just the lighning bolt "SS" that does in fact fit just fine with "Scout-Sniper".
Much ado about nothing at all, as usual.
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Yes. The two are very different.
I'm thinking along the lines of:
"Hey man, we need a battle flag for our section."
"Hell yeah! Just like the Confederacy!"
"Naw man that shit's played out. We need something that's special, that no one else has, and makes sense for us."
"Okay, we're badass scout snipers... wait. What goes with the letters SS?
*frantic google-fu*
"Dude, those lightning bolts look fucking wicked!!!"
*one print shop and flag-maker later... MSNBC*
IIRC they've been using this particular symbol since before there was an MSNBC. Vietnam, I think?
Quote from: Tyr on February 09, 2012, 09:49:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
I can imagine that a lot of people who are not into history (that's at least 95% of the population) don't know what the flag means.
Yep. Soldiers aren't known for being the brightest bunch.
They aren't soldiers. They're Marines.
Who are known for being even dumber.
Quote from: PDH on February 09, 2012, 04:27:47 PM
Good thing that only resembles an SS flag, because had they chosen two runic S's then it would seem a lot closer...
I thought the same thing. I guess if you change colors it just "resembles" the original. :P
Did the SS use that logo on flags? I don't remember any photos with such a flag. I think they used the swastika flag.
Quote from: Zanza on February 10, 2012, 02:45:01 AM
Did the SS use that logo on flags? I don't remember any photos with such a flag. I think they used the swastika flag.
Who the fuck is saying they used a logo from the "SS flag"?
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on February 09, 2012, 11:20:50 PM
IIRC they've been using this particular symbol since before there was an MSNBC. Vietnam, I think?
I think that would have been mentioned wouldn't it?
Quote from: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 02:46:27 AM
Who the fuck is saying they used a logo from the "SS flag"?
PDH for example in the post that you quoted five minutes ago.
Quote from: Zanza on February 10, 2012, 02:53:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 02:46:27 AM
Who the fuck is saying they used a logo from the "SS flag"?
PDH for example in the post that you quoted five minutes ago.
You realize he was being sarcastic, right?
The flag doesn't really matter, what disturbs me is that those guys look mean and tough, they are also carrying very big guns; I just hope they haven't been nasty to the poor Taliban :(
Quote from: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 02:54:40 AM
Quote from: Zanza on February 10, 2012, 02:53:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 02:46:27 AM
Who the fuck is saying they used a logo from the "SS flag"?
PDH for example in the post that you quoted five minutes ago.
You realize he was being sarcastic, right?
So?
You realize that I just wondered whether the SS ever used that logo on a flag, right? I guess not, but in this forum full of history geeks, I expected a more definite answer. It's a pity I only got your not very helpful comment as answer so far.
Quote from: The Brain on February 09, 2012, 04:15:16 PM
Partially covered Kiss flag. BFD :rolleyes:
Shame nobody in the Pentagon PR department has the cognitive ability to address that.
Well, Zanza, this seems to imply at least the image of an SS flag...
Right. I'm sure it's a coincidence. Nothing more.
One of those marines, though, looks like he needs to pee. Wonder if there's any Taliban nearby.
Quote from: PDH on February 10, 2012, 08:17:54 AM
Well, Zanza, this seems to imply at least the image of an SS flag...
Wouldn't be a problem if the Marines had picked Dokken. Or even Ratt.
Had they picked Ratt they would have been beaten up.
And rightfully so.
Quote from: Zanza on February 10, 2012, 05:59:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 02:54:40 AM
Quote from: Zanza on February 10, 2012, 02:53:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 02:46:27 AM
Who the fuck is saying they used a logo from the "SS flag"?
PDH for example in the post that you quoted five minutes ago.
You realize he was being sarcastic, right?
So?
You realize that I just wondered whether the SS ever used that logo on a flag, right? I guess not, but in this forum full of history geeks, I expected a more definite answer. It's a pity I only got your not very helpful comment as answer so far.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Flaggen_Nazi-Deutschlands#Flaggen_und_Standarten_der_SS
Quote from: Syt on February 10, 2012, 08:40:08 AM
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Flaggen_Nazi-Deutschlands#Flaggen_und_Standarten_der_SS
There you go, none on a blue background. Some grunt was ready and changed the colors just in time.
My 1939 Brockhaus doesn't have an SS flag entry, but this supposedly contemporary chart floats about the web.
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Snipers would never cover their runes with an ugly yellow circle.
Quote from: Tyr on February 09, 2012, 09:49:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
I can imagine that a lot of people who are not into history (that's at least 95% of the population) don't know what the flag means.
Yep. Soldiers aren't known for being the brightest bunch.
Neither are you. Here you are calling "Marines", soldiers. You aren't too bright are you?
One more time for the slow people in regards to the US military:
Marines=Marines
Soldiers=Army
Can't we all call them "Guys who really, REALLY shouldn't take photos of themselves in compromising situations" and get along?
Quote from: PDH on February 10, 2012, 08:52:20 AM
Can't we all call them "Guys who really, REALLY shouldn't take photos of themselves in compromising situations" and get along?
:lol:Agreed
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
Can't tell if serious.
Completely serious.
It uses two letters with a particular font that is similar to the font the SS used. The spacing is different, the color is different. If in fact they wished to make it clear they were trying to emulate the actual SS, they did a pretty damn poor job of it - and since the concern (if there is ANY valid angst over this) would and should be over a bunch of Marines thinking they should emulate the ethos or methods of the SS then certainly the only relevant question is this - "Do *these* particular Marines intend for that flag to emulate the SS?"
And I think the answer is pretty obviously no, because other than sharing the actual letters (which is explained by them in fact being Scout-Snipers) and the lightning bolt font (which was certainly selected by them for the same reason the actual SS selected it - it looks cool), there is no obvious attempt to make their flag look like an SS flag. And if they did in fact desire that, it would be much more obvious - the coloring alone, for example.
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
I get why this is going to be a minor tempest in a teapot, because the Marty's of the world will look for any excuse to wring their hands and bitch and cry about the nasty military, and it isn't important that their whining actually make any sense. But I am surprised that anyone else would care or make any particular note of it, other than the basic "Damnit, Marines, you should have known the Marty's of the world would use this to get all choked up about - use your fucking heads already!"
I don't look at that picture and make ANY assumptions about those men that is any different because of that flag (other than that they should be smart enough not to give ammo to the emotards). Do you? Do you seriously think that them having that flag says anything about how they operate or their philosophy or ethics?
If the Marines had any imagination--which they don't, they're Marines--they'd have used a flag of Marines urinating on dead Taliban. Now that's comedy gold, Jerry.
Their other flag is an maroon swatstika on a green background.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
Can't tell if serious.
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
Yes, Where you been?
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
In a western military context? Hehe. Of course. Are you shitting me?
Just like our units should not be using the fascist salute either no matter how awesome it might have been when the Romans did it.
Besised, they're just continuing a proud tradition!
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Eh, That swatsticker is going the wrong way. Doesnt count. ;)
What's the deal with Chief Blow Job?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 09:29:12 AM
What's the deal with Chief Blow Job?
I think that is the insignia of the 93rd pursuit squadron. http://www.neam.org/lafescweb/afterle.html
But that rule does not count for pre-nazi things.
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:25:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
Can't tell if serious.
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
Yes, Where you been?
Same place you have, I guess I am just not nearly so tender and sensitive.
Well, Berkut why dont you get a t-shirt made up with big "runic SS" letters front and back. Hell make the colors pink and white for breast cancer awareness. Then wear it all day, at work and out in public. See what the reactions would be.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:33:54 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:25:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
Can't tell if serious.
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
Yes, Where you been?
Same place you have, I guess I am just not nearly so tender and sensitive.
I'm not. But, soceity is. That's the reality.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:33:54 AM
Same place you have, I guess I am just not nearly so tender and sensitive.
Being tender and sensitive = not being a fucking moron? I guess I am glad I am tender and sensitive then :lol:
Seriously using obvious imagery from an Army known for aggressive war and racial superiority when you are a Western Army fighting in a third world country? Talk about fucking stupid even if the Afghans themselves probably do not give a fuck. Or not...Nazi symbols and Hitler seems frighteningly well known out there.
Since symbolism is clearly only for the tender and sensitive I will walk around burning American flags all day and laugh at anybody who has a problem as being tender and sensitive.
The problem with symbols is that they have cultural meaning, Berk. In this case, while your qualifier "forever" makes the answer no, the presence the runic double S has meaning that does indeed resonate.
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 09:25:39 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
In a western military context? Hehe. Of course. Are you shitting me?
Not at all. I just don't think the Nazi's should get to own letters.
Quote
Just like our units should not be using the fascist salute either no matter how awesome it might have been when the Romans did it.
Not the same thing at all, since if I saw a bunch of people using a Nazi salute, I would be pretty certain that they were using that salute *because* it was the Nazi salute, rather than it simply being a coincidence.
So you think KISS are Nazi lovers then, or are terribly offended that they are clearly trying to emulate the SS because they used those letters in that font?
It is two letters in a particular font, and the flag rather clearly does NOT have any of the other visual cues that it would have if in fact those guys were trying to make it an Nazi SS flag. I can understand why it is used as ammo for those who are always on the lookout for something to be offended by, but I am surprised anyone who actually thinks cares.
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 09:36:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:33:54 AM
Same place you have, I guess I am just not nearly so tender and sensitive.
Talk about fucking stupid
That sums their (MARINES) actions up quite nicely
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:35:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:33:54 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:25:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
Can't tell if serious.
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
Yes, Where you been?
Same place you have, I guess I am just not nearly so tender and sensitive.
I'm not. But, soceity is. That's the reality.
Then the reality is that you should be annoyed that they were not smart enough to realize that using that font would give "society" some fake reason to be offended, rather than actually be offended yourself.
In other words, you agree with me.
Kiss was *trying* to be "bad" Throbby, in their own unique PG-13 way.
It is not a fake reason. Do you think the only reason people are upset is because they manufactured some outrage after dredging up some false reason from the past?
No, the symbols have meaning in a cultural context, Berk. There is nothing inherent in a symbol's meaning, and yes it very well could become the symbol of the international peaceful guys group sometime.
But not now. It still has meaning. Cultural context gives it that meaning.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:35:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:33:54 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:25:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
Can't tell if serious.
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
Yes, Where you been?
Same place you have, I guess I am just not nearly so tender and sensitive.
I'm not. But, soceity is. That's the reality.
Then the reality is that you should be annoyed that they were not smart enough to realize that using that font would give "society" some fake reason to be offended, rather than actually be offended yourself.
In other words, you agree with me.
I agree that those Marines were stupid.
Quote from: PDH on February 10, 2012, 09:36:44 AM
The problem with symbols is that they have cultural meaning, Berk. In this case, while your qualifier "forever" makes the answer no, the presence the runic double S has meaning that does indeed resonate.
Good point, but my point is that one should not be offended or concerned about the meaning behind a symbol unless there is some good reason to think the person(s) using the symbol actually intend for it to reflect that meaning. KISS using the runic S font is not an issue because nobody really thinks that they are trying to emulate the Nazi SS, even if they symbol in question shares some coincidental similarity.
How is this any different? Do people think they actually were trying to re-create the Nazi SS symbol? Because they did a piss poor job if they were - it is the wrong color, wrong spacing, and has none of the typical iconography that goes with the SS.
I am not surprised that this gets used just like I am not surprised that there are birthers in the world. But I am not going to agree with them.
Before: fill in the blank.
"The farmer said this fall he expects a bumper ______."
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:42:15 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:35:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:33:54 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:25:22 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
Can't tell if serious.
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
Yes, Where you been?
Same place you have, I guess I am just not nearly so tender and sensitive.
I'm not. But, soceity is. That's the reality.
Then the reality is that you should be annoyed that they were not smart enough to realize that using that font would give "society" some fake reason to be offended, rather than actually be offended yourself.
In other words, you agree with me.
I agree that those Marines were stupid.
They are Marines though. I mean, duh.
I guess I am confused: if you cannot be offended by the symbols of Nazi Germany what exactly is a legitimate reason to be offended Berkut? Or is there no legitimate reason to ever be offended?
I mean generally when you pull that shit out you are trying to be hardcore.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 09:43:52 AM
Before: fill in the blank.
"The farmer said this fall he expects a bumper ______."
crop ;)
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:42:51 AM
Good point, but my point is that one should not be offended or concerned about the meaning behind a symbol unless there is some good reason to think the person(s) using the symbol actually intend for it to reflect that meaning. KISS using the runic S font is not an issue because nobody really thinks that they are trying to emulate the Nazi SS, even if they symbol in question shares some coincidental similarity.
How is this any different? Do people think they actually were trying to re-create the Nazi SS symbol? Because they did a piss poor job if they were - it is the wrong color, wrong spacing, and has none of the typical iconography that goes with the SS.
I am not surprised that this gets used just like I am not surprised that there are birthers in the world. But I am not going to agree with them.
So you are arguing that they came up with the double runic S without any background, help, internet searches, knowledge of history, or such? That would be a way such an innocuous reason could be applied, I suppose. But in that case, the Marines in question should have been shocked as well...
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 09:43:52 AM
Before: fill in the blank.
"The farmer said this fall he expects a bumper ______."
Sticker.
Next you'll be saying this excerpt from the Marine's code of conduct is also inapprporiate. :rolleyes:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 10, 2012, 09:48:11 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 09:43:52 AM
Before: fill in the blank.
"The farmer said this fall he expects a bumper ______."
Sticker.
Why would a farmer expect a bumper sticker?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 09:43:52 AM
Before: fill in the blank.
"The farmer said this fall he expects a bumper ______."
That can withstand a 5mph impact?
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 10, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
Next you'll be saying this excerpt from the Marine's code of conduct is also inapprporiate. :rolleyes:
:lmfao:
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 09:44:24 AM
I guess I am confused: if you cannot be offended by the symbols of Nazi Germany what exactly is a legitimate reason to be offended Berkut?
That is just it - I do not think it is a symbol of Nazi Germany. I think it has a coincidental similarity.
If I thought that they were all sitting around saying "Hey, we should totally admire and emulate the Nazi SS in our ethics and actions, and lets create this flag to make it clear that is what we stand for" then that would be extremely offensive.
"Lets make a badass Scout-Sniper flag using these cool lightning bolt S's!" is nothing to be offended about - except insofar that they should have been smart enough (or at least their officers should have been) to recognize that even coincidental similarities are enough to get the tenders panties all wadded up.
But hey, they are Marines, they are not selected for their cultural sensitivity. Shrug.
Let me put it to you like this:
If you were their commanding officer, and you came across them posing with the flag, would you:
A. Be offended that your men are apparently glorifying the Waffen SS, and concerned that they might all be Nazis? or
B. Chuckle at their attempt at being "bad ass" and tell them having a flag that even passing resembles a Waffen SS emblem is a bad idea and order them to get rid of it?
I think the answer is B, and am surprised that so many people seem to assume A, beyond the "birther" types who are just looking for something to find offensive.
Not assuming their Nazi's. That would be for CID to figure out.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:51:27 AM
That is just it - I do not think it is a symbol of Nazi Germany. I think it has a coincidental similarity.
There is nothing coincidental about it. As you said it is an attempt to be badass and hardcore by associating with some badass hardcore dudes like the Waffen SS. It is a homage to the SS and how awesome they were for godsake that is the intention. It is pretty funny. But come on dude you have to have "panties" and be fucking "sensitive" to be offended by the SS? What. The. Fuck?
You are taking 'outrage at PC' to stupid new levels. The Marines did this precisely to be hardcore and shock people for fucksake. At least give them their due.
Face it, these Marines, never having contact with the world, history (ok, that is likely), or never used the internet, came up with the side by side runic S symbology all on their own.
I thought Berkut was a wargamer. Well, I suppose this dispenses with that notion.
We had this discussion quite recently with the pissing on corpses incident. As in the former case I go with Berkut's point B. With the way things go viral on the internet it is important to get people like lieutenants and senior sergeants to realise that this sort of thing needs to be nipped in the bud. It is their duty to protect their grunts from their own foolishness.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 10, 2012, 10:06:56 AM
We had this discussion quite recently with the pissing on corpses incident. As in the former case I go with Berkut's point B. With the way things go viral on the internet it is important to get people like lieutenants and senior sergeants to realise that this sort of thing needs to be nipped in the bud. It is their duty to protect their grunts from their own foolishness.
I think we can all agree with that.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 10, 2012, 10:06:56 AM
We had this discussion quite recently with the pissing on corpses incident. As in the former case I go with Berkut's point B. With the way things go viral on the internet it is important to get people like lieutenants and senior sergeants to realise that this sort of thing needs to be nipped in the bud. It is their duty to protect their grunts from their own foolishness.
"B" is the correct choice, but the rest of his arguement is not.
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 09:58:38 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:51:27 AM
That is just it - I do not think it is a symbol of Nazi Germany. I think it has a coincidental similarity.
There is nothing coincidental about it. As you said it is an attempt to be badass and hardcore by associating with some badass hardcore dudes like the Waffen SS. It is a homage to the SS and how awesome they were for godsake that is the intention. It is pretty funny. But come on dude you have to have "panties" and be fucking "sensitive" to be offended by the SS? What. The. Fuck?
You are taking 'outrage at PC' to stupid new levels. The Marines did this precisely to be hardcore and shock people for fucksake. At least give them their due.
Meh, I don't buy it. If they wanted it to look like the SS, they did a pretty shitty job of it, since it doesn't look like an SS symbol at all, except in passing.
I guess you can believe they know just enough about the Waffen SS to know that they should use two lightning bolt S's, but not enough to know that they should be right next to each other, white on a black background, include a deaths head, etc., etc.
And yes, you have to be pretty damn sensitve to be offended by this, absolutely. It isn't about being PC though, it is about the need to manufacture outrage.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 10, 2012, 10:06:56 AM
We had this discussion quite recently with the pissing on corpses incident. As in the former case I go with Berkut's point B. With the way things go viral on the internet it is important to get people like lieutenants and senior sergeants to realise that this sort of thing needs to be nipped in the bud. It is their duty to protect their grunts from their own foolishness.
:yes:
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:42:51 AM
Quote from: PDH on February 10, 2012, 09:36:44 AM
The problem with symbols is that they have cultural meaning, Berk. In this case, while your qualifier "forever" makes the answer no, the presence the runic double S has meaning that does indeed resonate.
Good point, but my point is that one should not be offended or concerned about the meaning behind a symbol unless there is some good reason to think the person(s) using the symbol actually intend for it to reflect that meaning. KISS using the runic S font is not an issue because nobody really thinks that they are trying to emulate the Nazi SS, even if they symbol in question shares some coincidental similarity.
How is this any different? Do people think they actually were trying to re-create the Nazi SS symbol? Because they did a piss poor job if they were - it is the wrong color, wrong spacing, and has none of the typical iconography that goes with the SS.
I am not surprised that this gets used just like I am not surprised that there are birthers in the world. But I am not going to agree with them.
So you're saying that if a political party uses a blue swastika, on a green background....it's OK, because it's nothing like the Nazi black on red?
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:42:51 AM
Quote from: PDH on February 10, 2012, 09:36:44 AM
The problem with symbols is that they have cultural meaning, Berk. In this case, while your qualifier "forever" makes the answer no, the presence the runic double S has meaning that does indeed resonate.
Good point, but my point is that one should not be offended or concerned about the meaning behind a symbol unless there is some good reason to think the person(s) using the symbol actually intend for it to reflect that meaning. KISS using the runic S font is not an issue because nobody really thinks that they are trying to emulate the Nazi SS, even if they symbol in question shares some coincidental similarity.
How is this any different? Do people think they actually were trying to re-create the Nazi SS symbol? Because they did a piss poor job if they were - it is the wrong color, wrong spacing, and has none of the typical iconography that goes with the SS.
I am not surprised that this gets used just like I am not surprised that there are birthers in the world. But I am not going to agree with them.
So you're saying that if a political party uses a blue swastika, on a green background....it's OK, because it's nothing like the Nazi black on red?
Depends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.
Obviously the letters S do in fact have some use beyond them standing for Schutszstaffel. So I am not going to assume that their use is necessarily intended to create an association.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:09:09 AM
Meh, I don't buy it. If they wanted it to look like the SS, they did a pretty shitty job of it, since it doesn't look like an SS symbol at all, except in passing.
Of course you don't buy it. American Military is part of your "Tribe".
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:09:09 AM
Meh, I don't buy it. If they wanted it to look like the SS, they did a pretty shitty job of it, since it doesn't look like an SS symbol at all, except in passing.
Of course you don't buy it. American Military is part of your "Tribe".
:jaron:
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:09:09 AM
And yes, you have to be pretty damn sensitve to be offended by this, absolutely. It isn't about being PC though, it is about the need to manufacture outrage.
Ok...if being upset that our Marines are appearing to shit all over our values by embracing the symbolism of America's most despicable historical enemy is damn sensitive...then what the fuck does it take for a reasonable person to be offended? Anything at all?
Now I believe these dudes know who the Waffen SS is and the conciously chose their symbol. You disagree...for some reason. But presuming I am right...I mean what does it take? :lol:
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:18:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:09:09 AM
Meh, I don't buy it. If they wanted it to look like the SS, they did a pretty shitty job of it, since it doesn't look like an SS symbol at all, except in passing.
Of course you don't buy it. American Military is part of your "Tribe".
:jaron:
I'm disappointed in you, I thought you could do better.
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 10:26:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:09:09 AM
And yes, you have to be pretty damn sensitve to be offended by this, absolutely. It isn't about being PC though, it is about the need to manufacture outrage.
Now I believe these dudes know who the Waffen SS is and the conciously chose their symbol.
Agreed. Not saying their Nazi's though. Just mis-guided.
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences
edit: i like the scout-sniper idea, maybe that played a role too
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences
edit: i like the scout-sniper idea, maybe that played a role too
The Homage being exactly that: the SS was fucking cool and awesome.
I do not think the Marines are Nazis or anything.
i don't think they meant the flag to have any connection to the nazis at all. not saying they didn't know where the symbol came from, however
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:37:16 AM
i don't think they meant the flag to have any connection to the nazis at all. not saying they didn't know where the symbol came from, however
I do not think anybody is claiming they literally have Nazi sympathies.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences
I think the truth you just defined is not in the middle - it is exactly my position.
If they wanted to it to explicitly evoke the Waffen-SS, it would have been black with a Deathshead on it somewhere. It isn't, therefore they are pretty obviously NOT trying to say they are Nazis, hence I don't care beyond the fact that it is stupid to give the overly emo yet another club to beat on the US military with...
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:15:41 AM
Depends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.
Obviously the letters S do in fact have some use beyond them standing for Schutszstaffel. So I am not going to assume that their use is necessarily intended to create an association.
Yes of course. The Swastika does and has uses other then Nazis. In fact, the Nazis borrowed it from elsewhere. They didn't come up with it. Romans and Greeks both used it. It's still used in India as symbol of Jainism. The widespread use of the symbol was seen as proof of one master race that ruled the Earth before the Nazis came to power. Which is why the Nazis adopted it.
Second the SS symbol aren't actually letters. They are runes. Armanen runes to be exact thought up by some kook named Guido. These were in inspired by some old Germanic runes. The fact they bare a passing resemblance to the letter "S", is coincidental as the the rune and the letter come from different sources. Your arguments about spacing, and lack of other symbols related to Nazi regalia fall completely flat, since they were depicted in numerous ways. Color, spacing and tilt were not standardized in Nazi symbolism. Sometimes the Runes had other objects on the flags, sometimes they were buy themselves. The Sieg Runes were depicted in numerous ways and the way depicted on the flag of the Marines is entirely consistent with some of the most common depictions.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences
edit: i like the scout-sniper idea, maybe that played a role too
Fallacy of Middle Ground.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:48:08 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences
I think the truth you just defined is not in the middle - it is exactly my position.
If they wanted to it to explicitly evoke the Waffen-SS, it would have been black with a Deathshead on it somewhere. It isn't, therefore they are pretty obviously NOT trying to say they are Nazis, hence I don't care beyond the fact that it is stupid to give the overly emo yet another club to beat on the US military with...
:lol: Amusing! Using a Deaths head would have brought some ambiguity to it. a Deathshead has been used before the Nazis by numerous groups. Pirates, Hussars, etc. The duel Sieg Runes have
only been used by the Nazis like that and those explicitly imitating them.
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 10:35:02 AM
The Homage being exactly that: the SS was fucking cool and awesome.
QuoteI do not think anybody is claiming they literally have Nazi sympathies.
So your claim is that they think the Nazis are "fucking cool and awesome", but that they don't have Nazi sympathies?
That is some pretty damn fucking fine distinctions right there for a bunch of Marines.
I don't think they think the SS are "cool and awesome" I think they think using lightning bolts for the S's in "Scout Sniper" is cool and awesome, just like the Waffen-SS thought it was cool and awesome, because lightning bolts are powerful and cool and awesome.
I don't think they are making any effort whatsoever to make any kind of statement about what they think about the Waffen-SS at all. At worst, they are trying to be shocking by using a symbol that they know people will be shocked by, and even that is pretty speculative.
This outrage is like actually being offended by some goth with their "symbolism" that is meant to be all hardcore and outrageous, rather than actually claiming to be sympatheitc to the views of those that made the symbol offensive to begin with.
A skinhead having an SS symbol tattooed on his arm is offensive - I think it is clear he actually does believe in the philosophy behind the symbol. Some dumbass teenagers doodling a swastika on his notebook in school is just a dumbass teenager though.
These guys are the latter, not the former, until I hear something more definitive than just a picture.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:48:08 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences
I think the truth you just defined is not in the middle - it is exactly my position.
:lmfao: :lmfao: Aw man, normally I can follow you line of reasoning, but you out there on Pluto with this one.
US Marines posing with a self made flag using symbols that the Nazi's used=PR disaster.
I don't understand what is so hard to follow.
I simply do not share the masses faux angst over this. I don't think those Marines are any more likely to do something Waffen-SS like because they chose to use a pair of lightning bolt symbols to stand for "Scout-Sniper" than if they had chosen anything else, therefore I do not care beyond the extent that it is going to be used by the emo-crowd to justify their preconceptions.
The Marines have dealt with it in an entirely appropriate manner, stating that it was not acceptable to use that symbolism for obvious political reasons. That is the right move, just like I don't think Obama should have had to release his birth certificate to prove that birthers are dumbasses, but it was probably the right move to do so.
This is a fine example of how stupid people get worked up over meaningless bullshit, while ignoring the things that are actually important. A trivial news article about Marines and their flag is bigger news than actual content about US intentions in Afghanistan, the plans for what we are doing there (and not doing there), what the Taliban is doing, etc., etc.
What is kind of funny is how that is refelected on Languish. We all think we are above the trivial, but clearly we are not - more people care about bullshit like this than actual news.
The only one really worked up is you and your fanatical defense of the US military. A pair of lightning bolts don't exactly leap to mind when I want to write the words "Scout Sniper".
This thread has said much more about you, then anyone else, Berkut.
In unrelated news, a former sergeant of the Austrian military got acquitted in court today. He had remarked to a fellow sergeant that a bunch of recruits (who had too long hair, and were wearing no or wrong hats) were "a band of jews who should be burned."
As he did the remark before a very small group of people the court decided it did not qualify for hateful incitement or hatespeech. The sergeant had already been kicked out of the army shortly after the incident.
Quote from: Syt on February 10, 2012, 11:19:29 AM
In unrelated news, a former sergeant of the Austrian military got acquitted in court today. He had remarked to a fellow sergeant that a bunch of recruits (who had too long hair, and were wearing no or wrong hats) were "a band of jews who should be burned."
As he did the remark before a very small group of people the court decided it did not qualify for hateful incitement or hatespeech. The sergeant had already been kicked out of the army shortly after the incident.
:lol: Good old Osterreich.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 10:49:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:15:41 AM
Depends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.
Obviously the letters S do in fact have some use beyond them standing for Schutszstaffel. So I am not going to assume that their use is necessarily intended to create an association.
Yes of course. The Swastika does and has uses other then Nazis. In fact, the Nazis borrowed it from elsewhere. They didn't come up with it. Romans and Greeks both used it. It's still used in India as symbol of Jainism. The widespread use of the symbol was seen as proof of one master race that ruled the Earth before the Nazis came to power. Which is why the Nazis adopted it.
Yeah, I don't understand why Berkut created this easy trap for himself.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 10, 2012, 02:49:39 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on February 09, 2012, 11:20:50 PM
IIRC they've been using this particular symbol since before there was an MSNBC. Vietnam, I think?
I think that would have been mentioned wouldn't it?
I guess not, since it wasn't. I've seen it before for sure though a long time before this "story" came out, and I'm not/wasn't even a Marine. These 10 dudes, or whatever I didn't bring the photo back up to count, didn't actually come up with the idea.
E: Wtf. Page 8? I'm not reading all this shit, but do people seriously think these guys are the first to use these "SS runes"?
He's not thinking. I believe he really does not see it. When it comes to the US military Berkut's brain shuts down
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2012, 11:58:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 10:49:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:15:41 AM
Depends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.
Obviously the letters S do in fact have some use beyond them standing for Schutszstaffel. So I am not going to assume that their use is necessarily intended to create an association.
Yes of course. The Swastika does and has uses other then Nazis. In fact, the Nazis borrowed it from elsewhere. They didn't come up with it. Romans and Greeks both used it. It's still used in India as symbol of Jainism. The widespread use of the symbol was seen as proof of one master race that ruled the Earth before the Nazis came to power. Which is why the Nazis adopted it.
Yeah, I don't understand why Berkut created this easy trap for himself.
He enjoys it too.
Quote from: Syt on February 10, 2012, 11:19:29 AM
He had remarked to a fellow sergeant that a bunch of recruits (who had too long hair, and were wearing no or wrong hats) were "a band of jews who should be burned."
:face:
True Story
That reminds me. In 1990 my team was doing some ILRRPS sponsored training with Fernspahkompanie 300. One of the German teamleaders (Peter IIRC) ask my fellow US teamleader his name. The US teamleader stated SSG Brownstein. Peter then asked; "Your a german jew then?". Brownstein replied, "Yea, that's right." Peter said, "There arent too many of you left is there? :lmfao:
and BTW. The whole of Fernspahkompanie 300 were wearing some cammo smocks. I recognized the cammo pattern, SS Dot pattern M44. Mind you these smocks looked fucking brand new. When I asked they stated it was left over WW2 stock. Not a one of them would even trade or sell them.
Aint that some shit.
I think both the swastika and lightning bolt esses look cool from an adolescent male perspective and that's why the Nazis and these Marines picked them up. The Nazis only own those symbols as long as people let them. I don't think it's clear whether the Marines were using them as an homage to the SS and it's rather uncharitable to assume that they were.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 12:06:49 PM
I don't think it's clear whether the Marines were using them as an homage to the SS and it's rather uncharitable to assume that they were.
I dont think anyone here said they used it to pay homage to the Waffen-SS.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 12:06:49 PM
I think both the swastika and lightning bolt esses look cool from an adolescent male perspective and that's why the Nazis and these Marines picked them up. The Nazis only own those symbols as long as people let them. I don't think it's clear whether the Marines were using them as an homage to the SS and it's rather uncharitable to assume that they were.
I don't think though that it's fair to just say oh well, they didn't know better. And then as RH mentioned, where are their officers keeping them in line?
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:09:06 PM
I dont think anyone here said they used it to pay homage to the Waffen-SS.
Valmy did.
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:05:13 PM
and BTW. The whole of Fernspahkompanie 300 were wearing some cammo smocks. I recognized the cammo pattern, SS Dot pattern M44. Mind you these smocks looked fucking brand new. When I asked they stated it was left over WW2 stock. Not a one of them would even trade or sell them.
Aint that some shit.
I knew a guy in the NG that caught a ration of shit for showing up at a FTX in Vietnam-era jungle stripes. lol
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:17:52 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 12:13:39 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:09:06 PM
I dont think anyone here said they used it to pay homage to the Waffen-SS.
Valmy did.
He did
I stand ereceted.
So what is your idea here? Nobody would use the Fasces of the Italian Blackshirts (well besides Italian soccer fans) because they sucked. They are using the symbol of the dudes who were badass for a reason: they want to look badass. What else would it but a homage?
They may have chosen the symbols for the same reason the SS did rather than because the SS did.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 12:26:58 PM
They may have chosen the symbols for the same reason the SS did rather than because the SS did.
:lol:
Yeah right.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. :sleep:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 12:32:16 PM
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. :sleep:
I do as well. I see where they are coming from. I mean they are out in the field committing acts of violence and putting their lives in danger. One of the way you deal with that is doing hardcore stuff that desensitizes people, which is why military people famously do stuff like curse alot.
But, you know, you have to keep this stuff from getting out.
my, this thread exploded while i went out and sold myself
Quote from: ValmyI do not think anybody is claiming they literally have Nazi sympathies.
i know
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:48:08 AMI think the truth you just defined is not in the middle - it is exactly my position.
sorry, i was under the impression you were saying they coincidentally happened to pick the same symbol as the one used by the nazis, and that they might not have known its past host
Quote from: RazgovoryFallacy of Middle Ground.
err, your lack of comprehension has reared its ugly head. again. fallacy of middle ground demands that i imply that of two stances, the middle ground between them must be correct.. which i did not do. i stated my assumption of what transpired, and noted that it fell between what i perceived to be berkut and Everyone Else's differing thoughts. you are trying too hard; you should have displayed as much diligence two nights ago
Quote from: Peter WigginValmy did.
i thought so too.. however, now i'm not so sure if he meant homage when he said it. he misunderstood my point either way (see above)
Quote from: GarbonYeah, I don't understand why Berkut created this easy trap for himself.
he didn't create a trap for himself. raz and you aren't getting at what he's saying. obviously he knows about the swastika's literal history, but what he is saying is that it doesn't look like anything. it couldn't be used in a way, like the SS lightning bolts, that could mean something else. the SS lightning bolts look like the letter S. when placed side by side, they could mean scout-sniper
You are much more likable as lurker who doesn't post.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 12:32:16 PM
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. :sleep:
:lol:
+1
sorry, valmy, you did mean homage after all, i guess
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 12:47:10 PM
You are much more likable as lurker who doesn't post.
don't worry. only raz deserves the raz treatment. one's own medicine, etc. etc.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 12:49:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 12:47:10 PM
You are much more likable as lurker who doesn't post.
don't worry. only raz deserves the raz treatment. one's own medicine, etc. etc.
Yeah, you still are a more likable person as someone who isn't here. What compels you lurk and then wade into defend stupid arguments or people?
impulse? who knows
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 12:47:55 PM
sorry, valmy, you did mean homage after all, i guess
Whenever I am able to communicate effectively I take it as a victory :P
That's much better. Due to advances in Forum technology the best aspect of LaCroix's personality can be enjoyed with out the negative.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 01:02:40 PM
That's much better. Due to advances in Forum technology the best aspect of LaCroix's personality can be enjoyed with out the negative.
at least now i won't have to deal with posts like "Fallacy of Middle Ground." baku has been seized :)
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 12:49:10 PM
don't worry. only raz deserves the raz treatment. one's own medicine, etc. etc.
You should really lay off him for a while...
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 01:26:42 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 12:49:10 PM
don't worry. only raz deserves the raz treatment. one's own medicine, etc. etc.
You should really lay off him for a while...
I don't even see him anymore. So let him rant and rave.
Holy shit!!! I can't believe LaCroix wrote what he did in that post right after Raz'! That's the most amazing thing I've read on Languish.
:o
Clever Yi. :lol: Ignorance is Bliss.
I guess sometimes a banana is not a banana.
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2012, 11:58:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 10:49:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:15:41 AM
Depends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.
Obviously the letters S do in fact have some use beyond them standing for Schutszstaffel. So I am not going to assume that their use is necessarily intended to create an association.
Yes of course. The Swastika does and has uses other then Nazis. In fact, the Nazis borrowed it from elsewhere. They didn't come up with it. Romans and Greeks both used it. It's still used in India as symbol of Jainism. The widespread use of the symbol was seen as proof of one master race that ruled the Earth before the Nazis came to power. Which is why the Nazis adopted it.
Yeah, I don't understand why Berkut created this easy trap for himself.
Because it isn't a trap at all, in fact it proves exactly my point.
If I saw some Marines using a swastika, I would be quite certain they were doing so because a swastika cannot have any other context than Nazis for them. I rather specifically stated that if someone else were using one, I could be convinced that they were doing so in some other context. Hence the *context* of the use and who is using it and for what is what determines whether or not I would feel offended by their use of it.
Rather than this demand that in this case, no matter what the context, we MUST be offended.
I still think it looks more like the KISS font than the SS font. But hey.
Maybe the morons should've used Twister Sister's font instead.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:10:46 PM
Because it isn't a trap at all, in fact it proves exactly my point.
If I saw some Marines using a swastika, I would be quite certain they were doing so because a swastika cannot have any other context than Nazis for them. I rather specifically stated that if someone else were using one, I could be convinced that they were doing so in some other context. Hence the *context* of the use and who is using it and for what is what determines whether or not I would feel offended by their use of it.
Rather than this demand that in this case, no matter what the context, we MUST be offended.
Wait, what? It proves your point because you didn't know something?
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:10:46 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2012, 11:58:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 10:49:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:15:41 AM
Depends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.
Obviously the letters S do in fact have some use beyond them standing for Schutszstaffel. So I am not going to assume that their use is necessarily intended to create an association.
Yes of course. The Swastika does and has uses other then Nazis. In fact, the Nazis borrowed it from elsewhere. They didn't come up with it. Romans and Greeks both used it. It's still used in India as symbol of Jainism. The widespread use of the symbol was seen as proof of one master race that ruled the Earth before the Nazis came to power. Which is why the Nazis adopted it.
Yeah, I don't understand why Berkut created this easy trap for himself.
Because it isn't a trap at all, in fact it proves exactly my point.
If I saw some Marines using a swastika, I would be quite certain they were doing so because a swastika cannot have any other context than Nazis for them. I rather specifically stated that if someone else were using one, I could be convinced that they were doing so in some other context. Hence the *context* of the use and who is using it and for what is what determines whether or not I would feel offended by their use of it.
Rather than this demand that in this case, no matter what the context, we MUST be offended.
How so? A swastika is an ancient Hindu symbol of the sun.
And a "nazi salute" is in fact an ancient Roman salute.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 02:15:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:10:46 PM
Because it isn't a trap at all, in fact it proves exactly my point.
If I saw some Marines using a swastika, I would be quite certain they were doing so because a swastika cannot have any other context than Nazis for them. I rather specifically stated that if someone else were using one, I could be convinced that they were doing so in some other context. Hence the *context* of the use and who is using it and for what is what determines whether or not I would feel offended by their use of it.
Rather than this demand that in this case, no matter what the context, we MUST be offended.
Wait, what? It proves your point because you didn't know something?
Raz, just stop. I am not going to respond to your juvenile attacks, so just stop. I know you are going through some tough times, but the constant personal crap is getting tiresome.
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 12:20:56 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:17:52 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 12:13:39 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:09:06 PM
I dont think anyone here said they used it to pay homage to the Waffen-SS.
Valmy did.
He did
I stand ereceted.
So what is your idea here? Nobody would use the Fasces of the Italian Blackshirts (well besides Italian soccer fans) because they sucked. They are using the symbol of the dudes who were badass for a reason: they want to look badass. What else would it but a homage?
They chose it because it looks cool. That is all. Not homage to the SS
Quote from: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 02:19:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:10:46 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2012, 11:58:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 10:49:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:15:41 AM
Depends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.
Obviously the letters S do in fact have some use beyond them standing for Schutszstaffel. So I am not going to assume that their use is necessarily intended to create an association.
Yes of course. The Swastika does and has uses other then Nazis. In fact, the Nazis borrowed it from elsewhere. They didn't come up with it. Romans and Greeks both used it. It's still used in India as symbol of Jainism. The widespread use of the symbol was seen as proof of one master race that ruled the Earth before the Nazis came to power. Which is why the Nazis adopted it.
Yeah, I don't understand why Berkut created this easy trap for himself.
Because it isn't a trap at all, in fact it proves exactly my point.
If I saw some Marines using a swastika, I would be quite certain they were doing so because a swastika cannot have any other context than Nazis for them. I rather specifically stated that if someone else were using one, I could be convinced that they were doing so in some other context. Hence the *context* of the use and who is using it and for what is what determines whether or not I would feel offended by their use of it.
Rather than this demand that in this case, no matter what the context, we MUST be offended.
How so? A swastika is an ancient Hindu symbol of the sun.
So?
Quote
And a "nazi salute" is in fact an ancient Roman salute.
So?
What is your point Marty?
A swastika might not mean "Yeah, Nazi's are cool!", at least in theory. Great - that proves MY point, although in the case of a swastika, it is a pretty hard sell to claim someone using it today is doing so with that intent.
Symbols can mean different things to different people. So if you want to be offended by someone's use of a symbol, doesn't it make sense to know what they mean by its use first? Should every black person assume that if someone is wearing a cross, they are threatening them with burning one in their front yard?
Are you arguing that the characters "SS" can only possibly mean "Schuttzstaffel" to these men? That they are basically lying when they say they stand for "Scout-Sniper" in the same fashion you would assume some skinhead with a swastika plastered on their arm might claim it doesn't have anything to do with Nazis?
Bringing up alternative meanings for symbols supports MY argument that this use is not worthy of your faux outrage, not your own.
QuoteI still think it looks more like the KISS font than the SS font. But hey.
Quote from: FunkMonk on February 09, 2012, 04:08:36 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmsnbcmedia.msn.com%2Fj%2FMSNBC%2FComponents%2FPhoto%2F_new%2F120209-mc-ss-logo2.photoblog600.jpg&hash=3d817004f601c2dfc4a8bba87a9cc06ce0a16977)
Actual SS collar tabs
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soldat.com%2Fabz%2520SS%2520Runic%2520Tabs.jpg&hash=4f88c6826c640f093b02ebbe15145e38ee0e2c9f)
Same-same just dif color.
Quote from: Martinus on February 10, 2012, 02:19:11 PMHow so? A swastika is an ancient Hindu symbol of the sun.
And a "nazi salute" is in fact an ancient Roman salute.
excepting some little places in india, and the pdhs of the world, no, the swastika is not a hindu symbol, it is a symbol of nazism
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:22:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 12:20:56 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:17:52 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 12:13:39 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:09:06 PM
I dont think anyone here said they used it to pay homage to the Waffen-SS.
Valmy did.
He did
I stand ereceted.
So what is your idea here? Nobody would use the Fasces of the Italian Blackshirts (well besides Italian soccer fans) because they sucked. They are using the symbol of the dudes who were badass for a reason: they want to look badass. What else would it but a homage?
They chose it because it looks cool. That is all. Not homage to the SS
I still don't understand why this seems so hard to believe.
I think they chose it for the exact same reason the SS chose it - because lightning bolt S's look cool.
Besides, the dimensions on the SS of the KISS logo are different. :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kissasylum.com%2Fkreations%2Flogos%2Flogo07.jpg&hash=ce4e83839793c262aefbf24411f1c65161f5a849)
KISS logo not the same
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.digindigin.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F06%2Fband_Logo15.jpg&hash=4ad276fcea52ae2e804b1dc86b1963ed2fcc3039)
Ah, Syt beat me
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:10:46 PM
Because it isn't a trap at all, in fact it proves exactly my point.
If I saw some Marines using a swastika, I would be quite certain they were doing so because a swastika cannot have any other context than Nazis for them. I rather specifically stated that if someone else were using one, I could be convinced that they were doing so in some other context. Hence the *context* of the use and who is using it and for what is what determines whether or not I would feel offended by their use of it.
Rather than this demand that in this case, no matter what the context, we MUST be offended.
The dominant meaning of a swastika now is one that is offensive. It isn't that we must be offended about everything but look critically at those who appear not to be making critical decisions about what they expose to the world. After all, even if the group was using the swastika for an entirely different reason, you do need to think about what message your usage sends to the world. Simply because you want to use a symbol for another purpose doesn't mean that you shouldn't have to consider what message your are sending and how others might perceive it. That's pretty much the definition of being a decent person - how will your choice and actions affect others.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:20:11 PM
Raz, just stop. I am not going to respond to your juvenile attacks, so just stop. I know you are going through some tough times, but the constant personal crap is getting tiresome.
'
These aren't just mine. Nobody here is agreeing with you except some unknown lurker. Your statements aren't making sense.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:27:54 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:22:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 12:20:56 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:17:52 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 12:13:39 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 12:09:06 PM
I dont think anyone here said they used it to pay homage to the Waffen-SS.
Valmy did.
He did
I stand ereceted.
So what is your idea here? Nobody would use the Fasces of the Italian Blackshirts (well besides Italian soccer fans) because they sucked. They are using the symbol of the dudes who were badass for a reason: they want to look badass. What else would it but a homage?
They chose it because it looks cool. That is all. Not homage to the SS
I still don't understand why this seems so hard to believe.
I think they chose it for the exact same reason the SS chose it - because lightning bolt S's look cool.
Unfortunately Berkut the
evil wicked SS used it before these Marines. The SS demonized it.
Before, exactly how much Nazi memorabilia do you own?
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:27:54 PM
I still don't understand why this seems so hard to believe.
I think they chose it for the exact same reason the SS chose it - because lightning bolt S's look cool.
It's not a lighting bolt.
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2012, 02:31:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:10:46 PM
Because it isn't a trap at all, in fact it proves exactly my point.
If I saw some Marines using a swastika, I would be quite certain they were doing so because a swastika cannot have any other context than Nazis for them. I rather specifically stated that if someone else were using one, I could be convinced that they were doing so in some other context. Hence the *context* of the use and who is using it and for what is what determines whether or not I would feel offended by their use of it.
Rather than this demand that in this case, no matter what the context, we MUST be offended.
The dominant meaning of a swastika now is one that is offensive. It isn't that we must be offended about everything but look critically at those who appear not to be making critical decisions about what they expose to the world. After all, even if the group was using the swastika for an entirely different reason, you do need to think about what message your usage sends to the world. Simply because you want to use a symbol for another purpose doesn't mean that you shouldn't have to consider what message your are sending and how others might perceive it. That's pretty much the definition of being a decent person - how will your choice and actions affect others.
No argument here - and I've already stated that the Marines are dumbasses for not realizing that their flag would be taken out of context and used to slander them.
Doesn't mean I have to do so though.
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:26:33 PM
Same-same just dif color.
Wrong. The SS images are designed purposefully to be angular at both the base and the top, and the middle bars are at an angle as well, to give it a "lighting bolt" effect.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nachtkabarett.com%2Fmm%2FSchutzstaffel.svg&hash=117e0f983fe3450bd91486f349a99b1f221e66b9)
The KISS design is flat at both the base, the top and the middle bars.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fearnet.com%2Feol_images%2FEntire_Site%2F2011028%2FKiss.jpg&hash=251dc3d8c59b6e5addf853bdfff739415040a2c5)
More like KISS, less like SS.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 02:32:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:20:11 PM
Raz, just stop. I am not going to respond to your juvenile attacks, so just stop. I know you are going through some tough times, but the constant personal crap is getting tiresome.
'
These aren't just mine. Nobody here is agreeing with you except some unknown lurker. Your statements aren't making sense.
Plenty of people here disagree with me in some fashion, and agree with me in others. You are the only one desperately trying to turn it into some personal bullshit.
I know you wont stop, because you aren't capable of doing so, so I guess the joke is on me for asking you to. Continue on.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 02:32:21 PM
Nobody here is agreeing with you except some unknown lurker.
You say that like posting on Languish regularly gives one's statements more gravitas. :lol:
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:32:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:27:54 PM
I still don't understand why this seems so hard to believe.
I think they chose it for the exact same reason the SS chose it - because lightning bolt S's look cool.
Unfortunately Berkut the evil wicked SS used it before these Marines. The SS demonized it.
Indeed, which is why they should not use it - but it isn't a reason for me to be offended by them using it, unless I think they are using it as a means of expressing some kind of commonality of thought with the SS.
I don't think they are doing anything of the kind, hence I am not offended. What exactly in that statement are you disagreeing with?
Are *you* personally offended by them using that font? I mean beyond being annoyed that they would do so because *others* will be offended?
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:35:31 PM
No argument here - and I've already stated that the Marines are dumbasses for not realizing that their flag would be taken out of context and used to slander them.
Doesn't mean I have to do so though.
Fair. I don't think anything further than this.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 02:33:18 PM
Before, exactly how much Nazi memorabilia do you own?
I'll never tell. ;)
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:45:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 02:33:18 PM
Before, exactly how much Nazi memorabilia do you own?
I'll never tell. ;)
I bet he's got a single serving plate.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 10, 2012, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:26:33 PM
Same-same just dif color.
Wrong. The SS images are designed purposefully to be angular at both the base and the top, and the middle bars are at an angle as well, to give it a "lighting bolt" effect.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nachtkabarett.com%2Fmm%2FSchutzstaffel.svg&hash=117e0f983fe3450bd91486f349a99b1f221e66b9)
The KISS design is flat at both the base, the top and the middle bars.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fearnet.com%2Feol_images%2FEntire_Site%2F2011028%2FKiss.jpg&hash=251dc3d8c59b6e5addf853bdfff739415040a2c5)
More like KISS, less like SS.
Well look it's the Master Race.....er no a KISS fan. :huh:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.axishistory.com%2Ffileadmin%2Fuser_upload%2Fw%2Fwss-freikorps-danmark-sorensen-per.jpg&hash=d1b4b1895f2d70863e6c1c198f3be2f16f59d19f)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 10, 2012, 02:49:40 PM
I bet he's got a single serving plate.
I bet he could outfit and arm a kampfgruppe.
Berkut's mad because I used the same tactic against him that he uses against me. I said he wasn't being reasonable due to some tribal affiliation. That's his line. Every fact supports exactly supports Berkuts arguments even if the fact is new to him and contradicts his previous "Fact". Berkut can't see a fact that supports a different argument. I don't know why he gets like this.
If it was a Swastika Berkut would understand since only Nazis used it.
QuoteDepends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.
Except now when it shown that it false, the new fact that it has seen many uses past and present also prove Berkut's point.
It couldn't the same as the Nazi symbol because it doesn't have a skull and the spacing is different and the color is different. Except that that the color and spacing were not consistant in Nazi Symbolism and the deaths Head was not necessarily for that particular image.
It couldn't be the same as the Nazi symbol because it's just a stylized "S". Except the Nazi symbol was not a stylized "S".
It couldn't be the same as the Nazi symbol because it's just a lighting bolt. and so on.
There is
NO fact that would convince Berkut that he is wrong about that flag.
bet you wish raz had you on ignore, berkut :showoff:
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 02:55:50 PM
bet you wish raz had you on ignore, berkut :showoff:
I wonder if Raz can see your posts when they're quoted. :hmm:
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:41:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:32:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:27:54 PM
I still don't understand why this seems so hard to believe.
I think they chose it for the exact same reason the SS chose it - because lightning bolt S's look cool.
Unfortunately Berkut the evil wicked SS used it before these Marines. The SS demonized it.
Are *you* personally offended by them using that font? I mean beyond being annoyed that they would do so because *others* will be offended?
No, certaining not. My first reaction, *Chuckle* then, "This will go over like a turd in a punch bowl". But the reality remains that this gives off bad PR.
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:51:28 PM
Well look it's the Master Race.....er no a KISS fan. :huh:
Now you're just being douchey. :P
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 02:56:28 PMI wonder if Raz can see your posts when they're quoted. :hmm:
he can :D
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:56:32 PM
No, certaining not. My first reaction, *Chuckle* then, "This will go over like a turd in a punch bowl". But the reality remains that this gives off bad PR.
Yep. This was my precise reaction. Cannot do that dudes.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 02:52:21 PM
Berkut's mad because I used the same tactic against him that he uses against me. I said he wasn't being reasonable due to some tribal affiliation. That's his line.
No, it isn't. This is not a discussion on politics Raz.
Quote
Every fact supports exactly supports Berkuts arguments even if the fact is new to him and contradicts his previous "Fact". Berkut can't see a fact that supports a different argument. I don't know why he gets like this.
No, the point was made that the swastika has been historically used to mean things other than Nazis. That is factually correct, and supports my point that the symbol's context defines whether its use is offensive.
Quote
If it was a Swastika Berkut would understand since only Nazis used it.
That is true today, so far as I know. I've never seen a swastika used in contemporary society except as a symbol to represent Nazism. Like I said though - I could be wrong, and you could convince me otherwise, although it would be tough to do so, since it is such a well known symbol with little use outside its nazi reference.
Quote
QuoteDepends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.
Except now when it shown that it false, the new fact that it has seen many uses past and present also prove Berkut's point.
No, you have NOT shown it to be false - a swastika has no use TODAY except as a representation of nazism. We are all well aware that the Nazis did not invent the symbol. Hell, that was pointed out in this very thread before the post you are quoting.
So yes, in fact it does support my argument. The meaning of any symbol is dependent upon its context. Even a symbol as univeraslly despised as a swastika does not necessarily mean the person using it is a nazi.
Quote
It couldn't the same as the Nazi symbol because it doesn't have a skull and the spacing is different and the color is different.
Now you are just lying. I did not say it could not be the same, I said that if they wanted it to be the same, they did a poor job of it, and it would be trivially easy to make the connection unambguous by just adding more to the symbol that would make the association clear, like a deathshead insignia. Or hell, how about a swastika?
Quote
Except that that the color and spacing were not consistant in Nazi Symbolism and the deaths Head was not necessarily for that particular image.
Doesn't matter whether it was necessary, the SS soldiers didn't have any issue with making sure people knew what their 'SS' meant.
The US Marines, not so much.
Quote
It couldn't be the same as the Nazi symbol because it's just a stylized "S". Except the Nazi symbol was not a stylized "S".
I did not say it could not be the same, I said the similarity was possibly coincidental. Stop lying.
Quote
It couldn't be the same as the Nazi symbol because it's just a lighting bolt. and so on.
Again, you are just making things up about what I said. Why?
Quote
There is NO fact that would convince Berkut that he is wrong about that flag.
Sure there is - give me a quote from one of those men saying "Oh yeah, we were totally all about how awesome the SS were, and how we think we should be just like them!"
Then I would find their position offensive.
You are right - there is no "fact" that can be provided about the history of swastikas that can convince me that I should be offended by a picture of some Marine Scout Snipers with a "SS" on a flag and an explanation from them that the SS stands for "Scout Sniper".
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:41:38 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:32:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 02:27:54 PM
I still don't understand why this seems so hard to believe.
I think they chose it for the exact same reason the SS chose it - because lightning bolt S's look cool.
Unfortunately Berkut the evil wicked SS used it before these Marines. The SS demonized it.
Are *you* personally offended by them using that font? I mean beyond being annoyed that they would do so because *others* will be offended?
No, certaining not. My first reaction, *Chuckle* then, "This will go over like a turd in a punch bowl". But the reality remains that this gives off bad PR.
Ahh, so we agree then. Prepare for incoming from Raz and Marty.
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:56:32 PM
No, certaining not. My first reaction, *Chuckle* then, "This will go over like a turd in a punch bowl". But the reality remains that this gives off bad PR.
Yep. This was my precise reaction. Cannot do that dudes.
Then why have you been arguing with my contention that there is nothing there to get offended about, other than the stupidity of giving people who want to be offended an excuse to do so?
QuoteThe U.S. Marine Corps confirmed Thursday that a sniper team in Afghanistan posed for a photograph in front of a flag with a logo resembling that of the notorious Nazi SS. Use of the SS symbol is not acceptable, and the Marine Corps has addressed the issue, Lt. Col. Stewart Upton said in a statement.
If it wasnt a big deal, the Corps wouldnt have said it's not acceptable.
Besides society collectively says it's not acceptable. There was a time when fags were not acceptable now look at them. Course the gay community didnt start a world war and gas/bbq 6 mil jews either.
I'm not going to have quote war with you Berkut. Simply because it's not Democrat or Republican doesn't mean it isn't "Political". We are discussing whether they ( a fighting unit for a political union, the US)) are displaying symbol of paramilitary wing of a political party. That is political. Since you missed it the first time I posted it it still is used as symbol for Jainism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism They did not change their symbol beacuse of the Nazis (though the 45th Infantry division of the US army did I believe).
In point of fact, I did say that I was not personally offended. I was thought it was stupid. You might have missed that because you keep calling me a liar and seem somewhat busy with that.
Actually, I doubt that any quote would convince you since you would immediately brush it off as a required mea culpa forced by the Army to appear the evil Marty's of the world and the rest of the "PC" squad.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 03:10:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:56:32 PM
No, certaining not. My first reaction, *Chuckle* then, "This will go over like a turd in a punch bowl". But the reality remains that this gives off bad PR.
Yep. This was my precise reaction. Cannot do that dudes.
Then why have you been arguing with my contention that there is nothing there to get offended about, other than the stupidity of giving people who want to be offended an excuse to do so?
Dude, the person most wound up on this you.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 03:34:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 03:10:25 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 02:56:32 PM
No, certaining not. My first reaction, *Chuckle* then, "This will go over like a turd in a punch bowl". But the reality remains that this gives off bad PR.
Yep. This was my precise reaction. Cannot do that dudes.
Then why have you been arguing with my contention that there is nothing there to get offended about, other than the stupidity of giving people who want to be offended an excuse to do so?
Dude, the person most wound up on this you.
Uhh no, my entire point is that this isn't really worth getting wound up about at all.
Never seen that three-pronged swastika that SS guy has on his lapels. Maybe he's not a real Nazi.
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 03:38:37 PM
Never seen that three-pronged swastika that SS guy has on his lapels. Maybe he's not a real Nazi.
Appropos of nothing, I was really surprised to learn that the Nazis did not invent that whole "wearing a skull as a military symbol of being a real bad-ass" thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf
The Nazis weren't cool after all. Copycats! :mad:
Quote from: Malthus on February 10, 2012, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 03:38:37 PM
Never seen that three-pronged swastika that SS guy has on his lapels. Maybe he's not a real Nazi.
Appropos of nothing, I was really surprised to learn that the Nazis did not invent that whole "wearing a skull as a military symbol of being a real bad-ass" thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf
The Nazis weren't cool after all. Copycats! :mad:
Nazi assholes ruined the deaths head for everybody else.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 10, 2012, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 10, 2012, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 03:38:37 PM
Never seen that three-pronged swastika that SS guy has on his lapels. Maybe he's not a real Nazi.
Appropos of nothing, I was really surprised to learn that the Nazis did not invent that whole "wearing a skull as a military symbol of being a real bad-ass" thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf
The Nazis weren't cool after all. Copycats! :mad:
Nazi assholes ruined the deaths head for everybody else.
Once again, the Marines to the rescue!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Reconnaissance_Battalions
:D
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 10, 2012, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 10, 2012, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 03:38:37 PM
Never seen that three-pronged swastika that SS guy has on his lapels. Maybe he's not a real Nazi.
Appropos of nothing, I was really surprised to learn that the Nazis did not invent that whole "wearing a skull as a military symbol of being a real bad-ass" thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf)
The Nazis weren't cool after all. Copycats! :mad:
Nazi assholes ruined the deaths head for everybody else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZ8EkK3eWY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZ8EkK3eWY)
"Have you noticed that our caps have got skulls on them?"
Quote from: Malthus on February 10, 2012, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 03:38:37 PM
Never seen that three-pronged swastika that SS guy has on his lapels. Maybe he's not a real Nazi.
Appropos of nothing, I was really surprised to learn that the Nazis did not invent that whole "wearing a skull as a military symbol of being a real bad-ass" thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf
The Nazis weren't cool after all. Copycats! :mad:
Well, to be fair, they were copying from their nation's proud and storied military past. Hitler was all pro-Germany after all.
The old peacekeeper(MX missile) patch:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F2%2F25%2FPeacekeepermissileuniform.jpg%2F220px-Peacekeepermissileuniform.jpg&hash=dfd38cfc3530d75bc461b8b98a9401975eaa6fe3)
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 03:37:26 PM
Uhh no, my entire point is that this isn't really worth getting wound up about at all.
Well, you missed your own point then! :lol: You are the one ranting and raving.
This has been mostly a case of "Who do you believe, your lying eyes or honest Berkut?". When most of us look at the damn thing, it looks like a pair of Sieg Runes as used by the SS. You are treating it as some sort of attack on the military by some coalition of Marty and the "emotards". I don't know why these guys put them there. Maybe they'll tell us in the future. My guess is that's the same reason the people like Sid Vicious wore a T Shirt with a Swastika on it: To look hardcore. Militaries everywhere have done that. Taboo symbols, symbols of death, things like that. Why? To give the message of "Don't fuck with us". Even if the enemy doesn't recognize it (see the ace of spades in Vietnam).
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 03:38:37 PM
Never seen that three-pronged swastika that SS guy has on his lapels. Maybe he's not a real Nazi.
He is from the SS-Langemarck Division which started as the SS Volunteer Verband Flandern then 6th SS Volunteer Sturmbrigade Langemarck. Made up at least initially of flemish voluteers.
So, yes the meathead in the pic is SS. That collar device is the symbol of the 27th SS Langemarck Division.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.axishistory.com%2Ffileadmin%2Fuser_upload%2Fw%2Fwss-freikorps-danmark-sorensen-per.jpg&hash=d1b4b1895f2d70863e6c1c198f3be2f16f59d19f)
From that same wiki article Malthus linked to:
United States Marine Corps Reconnaissance Battalions use the skull and crossbones symbol in their emblem.
Nazis. :mad:
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 03:55:42 PM
From that same wiki article Malthus linked to:
United States Marine Corps Reconnaissance Battalions use the skull and crossbones symbol in their emblem.
Nazis. :mad:
VFA-103 too. :mad:
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 03:55:42 PM
From that same wiki article Malthus linked to:
United States Marine Corps Reconnaissance Battalions use the skull and crossbones symbol in their emblem.
Nazis. :mad:
You've been ninja'd: see #184. ;)
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 03:54:52 PM
the 27th SS Langemarck Division.
I think I kicked their ass in that WITE game. :)
Quote from: Malthus on February 10, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 03:55:42 PM
From that same wiki article Malthus linked to:
United States Marine Corps Reconnaissance Battalions use the skull and crossbones symbol in their emblem.
Nazis. :mad:
You've been ninja'd: see #184. ;)
Right. :lol:
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 02:26:53 PM
excepting some little places in india, and the pdhs of the world, no, the swastika is not a hindu symbol, it is a symbol of nazism
Wait, what now? Do you understand the phrase "cuturally defined" at all?
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 10, 2012, 03:59:56 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 03:54:52 PM
the 27th SS Langemarck Division.
I think I kicked their ass in that WITE game. :)
lol.
27th SS Langemarck Division.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.axishistory.com%2Ffileadmin%2Fuser_upload%2Fw%2Fwss-freikorps-danmark-sorensen-per.jpg&hash=d1b4b1895f2d70863e6c1c198f3be2f16f59d19f)
and not to be confused with
SS Nordland
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ww2incolor.com%2Fd%2F326968-2%2FJohann%2BPetter%2BBalstad%2523&hash=f5f939d6512334525ebe55b20185219bef53bce8)
Which SS-Nordland Division evloved from the Nordland Regimant from SS-Wiking Division who's symbol is
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F30%2FSSWiking.svg%2F115px-SSWiking.svg.png&hash=fd9b676b5bae96af2f3e7f50921e9f4ea14b1cbb)
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 03:54:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 03:37:26 PM
Uhh no, my entire point is that this isn't really worth getting wound up about at all.
Well, you missed your own point then! :lol: You are the one ranting and raving.
No, I am the one saying I am not offended by the picture. You are the only one trying to make this into something personal.
Quote
This has been mostly a case of "Who do you believe, your lying eyes or honest Berkut?". When most of us look at the damn thing, it looks like a pair of Sieg Runes as used by the SS.
So? What does that have to do with whether you should be offended by it?
When I see someone wearing a cruscifix, it looks a lot like the crosses that the KKK burns on people lawns - does that mean I should be offended?
Just because it looks like a SS symbol does not mean it IS an SS symbol, nor does it mean you should be offended by it until you figure out what the person using it intends it to mean. Why is that so hard to understand?
Quote
You are treating it as some sort of attack on the military by some coalition of Marty and the "emotards". I don't know why these guys put them there.
There are two possible answers, one legit and the other not.
The answer put forth by those who insist they need to be offended is that they put it there as some kind of homage to the SS.
Of course, the reality is you do know why they put it there, the article in question states it very clearly - because it stands for "Scout Sniper". You don't have to guess why they put it there - they told you why. You just choose not to believe them because you want to be offended.
Quote
Maybe they'll tell us in the future.
They already told you.
QuoteMaster Gunnery Sgt. Mark Oliva, a spokesman at Camp Pendleton, Calif., said the photo was brought to the attention of the 1 Marine Expeditionary Force inspector general in November, and he found there was no intent on the part of the Marines to identify themselves with a racist organization.
Oliva said the investigation found that the SS symbol was meant to identify the Marines as scout snipers, not Nazis
I suspect this little fact won't cause you to change your mind though.
Quote
My guess is that's the same reason the people like Sid Vicious wore a T Shirt with a Swastika on it: To look hardcore. Militaries everywhere have done that. Taboo symbols, symbols of death, things like that. Why? To give the message of "Don't fuck with us". Even if the enemy doesn't recognize it (see the ace of spades in Vietnam).
So the military wanting to look hardcore is a reason to get offended?
I rest my case that you and others are just looking for something to be offended by then.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 03:08:28 PM
That is true today, so far as I know. I've never seen a swastika used in contemporary society except as a symbol to represent Nazism. Like I said though - I could be wrong, and you could convince me otherwise, although it would be tough to do so, since it is such a well known symbol with little use outside its nazi reference.
I went into one of the residence at the U of Manitoba one day when I was in school and was initially shocked when I noticed there was a recurring swastika in the tiling on the floor.
Of course after a moment I realized the building dated to the 20s and the swastika was the opposite direction of Hitler's.
So there's a swastika that continues to be used in contemporary society.
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:04:16 PM
and not to be confused with
SS Nordland
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ww2incolor.com%2Fd%2F326968-2%2FJohann%2BPetter%2BBalstad%2523&hash=f5f939d6512334525ebe55b20185219bef53bce8)
This picture made me wonder: how did Germany manage to sustain hair gel production through the blockade and bombing?
Quote from: Barrister on February 10, 2012, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 03:08:28 PM
That is true today, so far as I know. I've never seen a swastika used in contemporary society except as a symbol to represent Nazism. Like I said though - I could be wrong, and you could convince me otherwise, although it would be tough to do so, since it is such a well known symbol with little use outside its nazi reference.
I went into one of the residence at the U of Manitoba one day when I was in school and was initially shocked when I noticed there was a recurring swastika in the tiling on the floor.
Of course after a moment I realized the building dated to the 20s and the swastika was the opposite direction of Hitler's.
So there's a swastika that continues to be used in contemporary society.
Sounds like a remnant from pre-nazi society, doesn't it?
In any case, you can easily convince me in that case that nobody was glorifying the Nazis.
Of course, Raz and Marty would insist that it doesn't matter what anyone intended, you should be offended by it anyway, and perhaps insist that the U of Manitoba do something about it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 04:07:45 PM
This picture made me wonder: how did Germany manage to sustain hair gel production through the blockade and bombing?
Made from miracle ingredient Judeulin.
Why do you think the tanks ran out of gas? Too much petroleum hair jelly.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 04:08:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 10, 2012, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 03:08:28 PM
That is true today, so far as I know. I've never seen a swastika used in contemporary society except as a symbol to represent Nazism. Like I said though - I could be wrong, and you could convince me otherwise, although it would be tough to do so, since it is such a well known symbol with little use outside its nazi reference.
I went into one of the residence at the U of Manitoba one day when I was in school and was initially shocked when I noticed there was a recurring swastika in the tiling on the floor.
Of course after a moment I realized the building dated to the 20s and the swastika was the opposite direction of Hitler's.
So there's a swastika that continues to be used in contemporary society.
Sounds like a remnant from pre-nazi society, doesn't it?
In any case, you can easily convince me in that case that nobody was glorifying the Nazis.
Of course, Raz and Marty would insist that it doesn't matter what anyone intended, you should be offended by it anyway, and perhaps insist that the U of Manitoba do something about it.
Well of course it was. And of course nobody was glorifying the nazis.
I am still astounded however that in the hyper-politically correct environment of a modern university, somebody hadn't gotten all offended and forced them to rip up that very nice tile floor! :lol:
Quote from: PDH on February 10, 2012, 04:02:06 PMWait, what now? Do you understand the phrase "cuturally defined" at all?
don't worry. i didn't throw your name out for anything you've said in this thread. i said it because it is synonymous with "academic." i meant no offense :P
to answer your question: i can understand the phrase culturally defined, yes
Quote from: Barrister on February 10, 2012, 04:20:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 04:08:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 10, 2012, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 03:08:28 PM
That is true today, so far as I know. I've never seen a swastika used in contemporary society except as a symbol to represent Nazism. Like I said though - I could be wrong, and you could convince me otherwise, although it would be tough to do so, since it is such a well known symbol with little use outside its nazi reference.
I went into one of the residence at the U of Manitoba one day when I was in school and was initially shocked when I noticed there was a recurring swastika in the tiling on the floor.
Of course after a moment I realized the building dated to the 20s and the swastika was the opposite direction of Hitler's.
So there's a swastika that continues to be used in contemporary society.
Sounds like a remnant from pre-nazi society, doesn't it?
In any case, you can easily convince me in that case that nobody was glorifying the Nazis.
Of course, Raz and Marty would insist that it doesn't matter what anyone intended, you should be offended by it anyway, and perhaps insist that the U of Manitoba do something about it.
Well of course it was. And of course nobody was glorifying the nazis.
I am still astounded however that in the hyper-politically correct environment of a modern university, somebody hadn't gotten all offended and forced them to rip up that very nice tile floor! :lol:
Is it historically protected or something?
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 04:05:52 PM
I rest my case that you and others are just looking for something to be offended by then.
How many times do I have to say I'm not offended? It's my fault really. I have a talent for pushing peoples buttons and I shouldn't have used the word "Tribal". I knew it would set you off, but I thought some kind of common sense would breakthrough that skull of yours. I don't know where you get the idea that I claimed it was done to "Honor" the SS. You need to get a grip. Jesus, Christ.
http://gentleswastikacollective.blogspot.com/
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-dfkF3NrGA7c%2FTfYsTc2HwWI%2FAAAAAAAAAg4%2FmiRReuF3fMs%2Fs640%2Fcobh2011-12.jpg&hash=d081d5234592ee88e4a6e78649e5068a6436b585)
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
You need to get a grip. Jesus, Christ.
:lol: Physician, heal thyself.
Evil?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_8QW5_u4urFw%2FTTjN1M10pwI%2FAAAAAAAAAfk%2FWVcy125rE9s%2Fs1600%2FGentleSwazi.jpg&hash=e22a192f60058e917f23dc0e8a3472e320a0e55b)
Syt's photo offended me. Ugh. That's nasty. Berkut keeps thinking I'm somehow offended. Even though I've said I not several times. Mostly I just like to get people's goat and was a bit amazed that Berkut was serious.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:30:49 PM
Syt's photo offended me. Ugh. That's nasty. Berkut keeps thinking I'm somehow offended. Even though I've said I not several times. Mostly I just like to get people's goat and was a bit amazed that Berkut was serious.
Calm down Beavis.
I'm fine. I'm not the one going all throbby and calling people liar.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:30:49 PM
Syt's photo offended me. Ugh. That's nasty. Berkut keeps thinking I'm somehow offended. Even though I've said I not several times. Mostly I just like to get people's goat and was a bit amazed that Berkut was serious.
Eh, nice hips on her. Tats are a plus too. Dont have to worry about getting her knocked up either. Also, you know she puts out.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:30:49 PM
Syt's photo offended me. Ugh. That's nasty. Berkut keeps thinking I'm somehow offended. Even though I've said I not several times. Mostly I just like to get people's goat and was a bit amazed that Berkut was serious.
You keep saying you're offended and claiming Berkut's worked-up, yet...you're the one making multiple posts telling Berkut how worked-up he is. :hmm:
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 04:34:50 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:30:49 PM
Syt's photo offended me. Ugh. That's nasty. Berkut keeps thinking I'm somehow offended. Even though I've said I not several times. Mostly I just like to get people's goat and was a bit amazed that Berkut was serious.
You keep saying you're offended and claiming Berkut's worked-up, yet...you're the one making multiple posts telling Berkut how worked-up he is. :hmm:
Where did I say I was offended? If I did, it was an accident. You know all know I leave words out of sentences. I just thought it was a stupid thing to do.
That's actually an instance of my leaving a word out of a sentence--should be "not offended" as in you're protesting over and over again that you aren't.
In my defense, it is currently freezing in this room. :blush:
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:33:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:30:49 PM
Syt's photo offended me. Ugh. That's nasty. Berkut keeps thinking I'm somehow offended. Even though I've said I not several times. Mostly I just like to get people's goat and was a bit amazed that Berkut was serious.
Eh, nice hips on her. Tats are a plus too. Dont have to worry about getting her knocked up either. Also, you know she puts out.
Ugh. Some tats aren't a deal breaker. That many, ugh.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 04:07:45 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:04:16 PM
and not to be confused with
SS Nordland
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ww2incolor.com%2Fd%2F326968-2%2FJohann%2BPetter%2BBalstad%2523&hash=f5f939d6512334525ebe55b20185219bef53bce8)
This picture made me wonder: how did Germany manage to sustain hair gel production through the blockade and bombing?
That guy's fuckin' classy. I'm going to do my hair like his.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:38:06 PM
Syt's photo offended me.
Where did I say I was offended?
:P
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:40:17 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:33:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:30:49 PM
Syt's photo offended me. Ugh. That's nasty. Berkut keeps thinking I'm somehow offended. Even though I've said I not several times. Mostly I just like to get people's goat and was a bit amazed that Berkut was serious.
Eh, nice hips on her. Tats are a plus too. Dont have to worry about getting her knocked up either. Also, you know she puts out.
Ugh. Some tats aren't a deal breaker. That many, ugh.
And manipulation of the brightness slider reveals......drumroll........
CAMELTOE
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 10, 2012, 04:43:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 04:38:06 PM
Syt's photo offended me.
Where did I say I was offended?
:P
She's not a Marine. That woman offends me. Ugh. Probably has as many face piercings as a cenobite.
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:47:07 PM
And manipulation of the brightness slider reveals......drumroll........
CAMELTOE
So you specifically went looking for it? :D
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 04:40:48 PM
That guy's fuckin' classy. I'm going to do my hair like his.
With your bone structure...?
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 04:40:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 10, 2012, 04:07:45 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:04:16 PM
and not to be confused with
SS Nordland
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ww2incolor.com%2Fd%2F326968-2%2FJohann%2BPetter%2BBalstad%2523&hash=f5f939d6512334525ebe55b20185219bef53bce8)
This picture made me wonder: how did Germany manage to sustain hair gel production through the blockade and bombing?
That guy's fuckin' classy. I'm going to do my hair like his.
Tank desruction badges are cool too.
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 10, 2012, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:47:07 PM
And manipulation of the brightness slider reveals......drumroll........
CAMELTOE
So you specifically went looking for it? :D
I would be remiss if I didnt. ;)
So it's resolved: Habbakku will wear a gelled 'do, Berkut will wear an Indian swastika tee-shirt, and 11B4V will "wear" a trailer-trash slut.
Everyone's happy! :showoff:
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2012, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 04:40:48 PM
That guy's fuckin' classy. I'm going to do my hair like his.
With your bone structure...?
I have pure, Aryan skull shape. :mad:
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 10, 2012, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:47:07 PM
And manipulation of the brightness slider reveals......drumroll........
CAMELTOE
So you specifically went looking for it? :D
Yeah, that's kinda creepy. :lol:
Quote from: Syt on February 10, 2012, 04:59:48 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 10, 2012, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:47:07 PM
And manipulation of the brightness slider reveals......drumroll........
CAMELTOE
So you specifically went looking for it? :D
Yeah, that's kinda creepy. :lol:
Well, you didnt show her face. :D
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 04:53:33 PM
Tank desruction badges are cool too.
You're a rabid anti-tanktite.
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 05:07:58 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 10, 2012, 04:58:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 04:56:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2012, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 04:40:48 PM
That guy's fuckin' classy. I'm going to do my hair like his.
With your bone structure...?
I have pure, Aryan skull shape. :mad:
:huh:
:huh:
So what's your measurements?
88mm.
Cube or sphere?
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 04:56:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2012, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 10, 2012, 04:40:48 PM
That guy's fuckin' classy. I'm going to do my hair like his.
With your bone structure...?
I have pure, Aryan skull shape. :mad:
So do I. Buried the fucker out back last spring.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi194.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz320%2Ftheacechaser%2FKiss-army-1.jpg&hash=317544b0bb08455c8d5679c26417604ae34f1876)
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 09, 2012, 09:49:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
I can imagine that a lot of people who are not into history (that's at least 95% of the population) don't know what the flag means.
Yep. Soldiers aren't known for being the brightest bunch.
Neither are you. Here you are calling "Marines", soldiers. You aren't too bright are you?
One more time for the slow people in regards to the US military:
Marines=Marines
Soldiers=Army
Irrelevant. Marines are a subset of the group 'soldier'.
Trying to push some weird military verbage on sensible people is unacceptable.
Quote from: Neil on February 10, 2012, 08:52:28 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 09, 2012, 09:49:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
I can imagine that a lot of people who are not into history (that's at least 95% of the population) don't know what the flag means.
Yep. Soldiers aren't known for being the brightest bunch.
Neither are you. Here you are calling "Marines", soldiers. You aren't too bright are you?
One more time for the slow people in regards to the US military:
Marines=Marines
Soldiers=Army
Irrelevant. Marines are a subset of the group 'soldier'.
Trying to push some weird military verbage on sensible people is unacceptable.
I'll agree and not agree.
A better question would be, are they infantry ? :D
Quote from: Neil on February 10, 2012, 08:52:28 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 09, 2012, 09:49:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
I can imagine that a lot of people who are not into history (that's at least 95% of the population) don't know what the flag means.
Yep. Soldiers aren't known for being the brightest bunch.
Neither are you. Here you are calling "Marines", soldiers. You aren't too bright are you?
One more time for the slow people in regards to the US military:
Marines=Marines
Soldiers=Army
Irrelevant. Marines are a subset of the group 'soldier'.
Trying to push some weird military verbage on sensible people is unacceptable.
Naw, your still F'ed up.
Quote from: mongers on February 10, 2012, 09:33:17 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 10, 2012, 08:52:28 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 09, 2012, 09:49:04 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
I can imagine that a lot of people who are not into history (that's at least 95% of the population) don't know what the flag means.
Yep. Soldiers aren't known for being the brightest bunch.
Neither are you. Here you are calling "Marines", soldiers. You aren't too bright are you?
One more time for the slow people in regards to the US military:
Marines=Marines
Soldiers=Army
Irrelevant. Marines are a subset of the group 'soldier'.
Trying to push some weird military verbage on sensible people is unacceptable.
I'll agree and not agree.
A better question would be, are they infantry ? :D
The SS...ooops Scout Snipers, usually are I believe. A reqiurement I think.
It's worse when Navy folk get butthurt about their "ship" being called a "boat". :P
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 10, 2012, 09:44:50 PM
It's worse when Navy folk get butthurt about their "ship" being called a "boat". :P
Or the Coast Guard....Puddle Pirates
Quote from: 11B4V on February 10, 2012, 09:43:33 PM
The SS...ooops Scout Snipers, usually are I believe. A reqiurement I think.
Yeah its a bit odd we haven't had Seigy around to make a comment on this, not because of the nazi stuff, but it would be nice/amusing to hear some inter-service rivalry about who are the better snipers etc. :D
Incidentally British Royal Marines, who are commandos, iirc do quite a bit of the sniper training for other UK forces, I think.
Quote from: mongers on February 10, 2012, 09:48:23 PM
Incidentally British Royal Marines, who are commandos, iirc do quite a bit of the sniper training for other UK forces, I think.
Too bad they can't leave the island, what with no navy and all.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 10, 2012, 09:51:39 PM
Quote from: mongers on February 10, 2012, 09:48:23 PM
Incidentally British Royal Marines, who are commandos, iirc do quite a bit of the sniper training for other UK forces, I think.
Too bad they can't leave the island, what with no navy and all.
:D
Actually I think you'll find the 'Task Force' set sail yesterday, all two of them. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:37:54 AM
Not the same thing at all, since if I saw a bunch of people using a Nazi salute, I would be pretty certain that they were using that salute *because* it was the Nazi salute, rather than it simply being a coincidence.
You mean like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg
[Board won't imbed images for some reason]
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 09:58:38 AM
There is nothing coincidental about it. As you said it is an attempt to be badass and hardcore by associating with some badass hardcore dudes like the Waffen SS. It is a homage to the SS and how awesome they were for godsake that is the intention. It is pretty funny. But come on dude you have to have "panties" and be fucking "sensitive" to be offended by the SS? What. The. Fuck?
You are taking 'outrage at PC' to stupid new levels. The Marines did this precisely to be hardcore and shock people for fucksake. At least give them their due.
:bleeding:
Quote from: grumbler on February 10, 2012, 11:34:02 PM
:bleeding:
Oh for Godsake. I am making an obvious point here. I know you are not dense.
Oh, you were the one who said "Homage". Berkut kept attributing that to me.
Quote from: Josephus on February 10, 2012, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:42:51 AM
Quote from: PDH on February 10, 2012, 09:36:44 AM
The problem with symbols is that they have cultural meaning, Berk. In this case, while your qualifier "forever" makes the answer no, the presence the runic double S has meaning that does indeed resonate.
Good point, but my point is that one should not be offended or concerned about the meaning behind a symbol unless there is some good reason to think the person(s) using the symbol actually intend for it to reflect that meaning. KISS using the runic S font is not an issue because nobody really thinks that they are trying to emulate the Nazi SS, even if they symbol in question shares some coincidental similarity.
How is this any different? Do people think they actually were trying to re-create the Nazi SS symbol? Because they did a piss poor job if they were - it is the wrong color, wrong spacing, and has none of the typical iconography that goes with the SS.
I am not surprised that this gets used just like I am not surprised that there are birthers in the world. But I am not going to agree with them.
So you're saying that if a political party uses a blue swastika, on a green background....it's OK, because it's nothing like the Nazi black on red?
I see swastikas on buddhist temples all the time. No one cares, because it's not a Nazi symbol.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 11, 2012, 03:25:59 AM
I see swastikas on buddhist temples all the time. No one cares, because it's not a Nazi symbol.
To be fair, nobody would care even if it was a Nazi symbol. :contract:
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:lol:
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2012, 12:11:26 AM
Oh for Godsake. I am making an obvious point here. I know you are not dense.
You are just making shit up to justify a point that you have decided is
a priori true. You are correct that I am not the dense one here.
These guys aren't history dweebs that know about the symbology of the Waffen-SS (which ceased to exist 66 years ago). They are just guys that made a flag using symbology that they have seen other scout sniper units use in the past. It doesn't look anything like the SS lightning runes, frankly.
I wonder if the average Talib islamoid has heard of the SS?
Quote from: Legbiter on February 11, 2012, 09:36:04 AM
I wonder if the average Talib islamoid has heard of the SS?
Possibly, but whether they have ever seen the SS rune is a better question. I showed the picture of the Marines with the flag to my AP Euro kids and asked them if they saw anything wrong, and they didn't. They knew what the SS was, but only one was familiar with the rune (and didn't see the resemblance in the Marine flag until I pointed it out), since it's not much of a big deal outside (perhaps) the skinhead circle and, of course, holocaust/war crimes historians and survivors/descendents of those involved on either side.
People
will find things to get their panties in a wad about, though. Such people should be grateful to these Marines for given them a chance to strut their stuff.
Quote from: grumbler on February 11, 2012, 08:56:23 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2012, 12:11:26 AM
Oh for Godsake. I am making an obvious point here. I know you are not dense.
You are just making shit up to justify a point that you have decided is a priori true. You are correct that I am not the dense one here.
These guys aren't history dweebs that know about the symbology of the Waffen-SS (which ceased to exist 66 years ago). They are just guys that made a flag using symbology that they have seen other scout sniper units use in the past. It doesn't look anything like the SS lightning runes, frankly.
Which other scout snipers used it?
Quote from: Legbiter on February 11, 2012, 09:36:04 AM
I wonder if the average Talib islamoid has heard of the SS?
Of course. What you think? They live in caves?
---oh wait...They do, don' t they?
Quote from: Josephus on February 11, 2012, 12:16:13 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on February 11, 2012, 09:36:04 AM
I wonder if the average Talib islamoid has heard of the SS?
Of course. What you think? They live in caves?
---oh wait...They do, don' t they?
:lol:
I could have swore someone answered my question. :huh:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.moonbattery.com%2Fcharles-manson.jpg&hash=1f04f5f2e25cc7641d924bb4a5b32a726ddd6f36)
I believe this man to be a Buddhist monk.
For the record, I wasnt personally offended either, except by sheer stupidity.
Quote from: grumbler on February 11, 2012, 11:29:06 AMSuch people should be grateful to these Marines for given them a chance to strut their stuff.
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:
Quote from: grumbler on February 11, 2012, 11:29:06 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on February 11, 2012, 09:36:04 AM
I wonder if the average Talib islamoid has heard of the SS?
Possibly, but whether they have ever seen the SS rune is a better question. I showed the picture of the Marines with the flag to my AP Euro kids and asked them if they saw anything wrong, and they didn't. They knew what the SS was, but only one was familiar with the rune (and didn't see the resemblance in the Marine flag until I pointed it out), since it's not much of a big deal outside (perhaps) the skinhead circle and, of course, holocaust/war crimes historians and survivors/descendents of those involved on either side.
People will find things to get their panties in a wad about, though. Such people should be grateful to these Marines for given them a chance to strut their stuff.
What do
you find to get your panties in a wad about?
Quote from: Razgovory on February 11, 2012, 08:00:55 PM
What do you find to get your panties in a wad about?
Grumbler doesn't
get panties in a wad. He
takes them.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 11, 2012, 08:05:52 PM
Grumbler doesn't get panties in a wad. He takes them.
:lol: You cover six like an ace. :cool:
Quote from: Martinus on February 11, 2012, 07:37:52 PM
For the record, I wasnt personally offended either, except by sheer stupidity.
Again, they are Marines. They are the military people who are *supposed* to actually be as dim as you think all military people to be... :P
We are living in a Golden Age of sensitivity.
I'm rather bored with it myself.........."US MARINES ARE NOT VERY SENSITIVE SHOCK! HORROR!"..................meh :glare:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 11, 2012, 08:58:13 PM
We are living in a Golden Age of sensitivity.
I'm rather bored with it myself.........."US MARINES ARE NOT VERY SENSITIVE SHOCK! HORROR!"..................meh :glare:
That's not even the issue. The fact is that the Marine Scout Snipers have used this image for years, without anyone (including them) thinking they were using Nazi symbology (mostly because they are very, very low-key, and until the development of social media no one outside the fraternity even knew that there was a unit known as the "SS").
They also use the "Death's Head" (with a bullet hole in the forehead) - and sometimes, the skull is used with crossed bones, so they are insensitive enough to support pirates! :pirate
We all suffer from it, it seems...
Quote from: Berkut on February 11, 2012, 08:52:14 PM
Again, they are Marines. They are the military people who are *supposed* to actually be as dim as you think all military people to be... :P
They are naval personnel, and not "military" at all.
Naval: Navy and Marine Corps
Military: Army (and, sorta, Air Force)
No marines normally come from the United States
Military Academy at West Point.
(Just bustin' yer chops, of course, except that an actual Marine objects to "military" like he does "soldier" - Marines are weird that way)
Quote from: Berkut on February 11, 2012, 08:52:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 11, 2012, 07:37:52 PM
For the record, I wasnt personally offended either, except by sheer stupidity.
Again, they are Marines. They are the military people who are *supposed* to actually be as dim as you think all military people to be... :P
Sure. However, the whole argument here started when you came into the thread and announced that this looks nothing like the SS logo and people are seeing things that are not there. :P
It never was about "OMG this is so offensive!!!!!" for most (all?) people who posted - it was about this being stupid.
Quote from: dps on February 10, 2012, 01:04:46 AM
They aren't soldiers. They're Marines.
Marines aren't soldiers?
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2012, 04:40:49 AM
Quote from: dps on February 10, 2012, 01:04:46 AM
They aren't soldiers. They're Marines.
Marines aren't soldiers?
Not according to them, they are Marines. See what grumbler said above about them not even being 'military'.
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2012, 04:40:49 AM
Quote from: dps on February 10, 2012, 01:04:46 AM
They aren't soldiers. They're Marines.
Marines aren't soldiers?
They are Marines. I understand you could start a bar fight by calling them soldiers.
Then call them sailors instead. Like, "Hellooooo, Sailor!"
Quote from: grumbler on February 11, 2012, 08:56:23 AM
They are just guys that made a flag using symbology that they have seen other scout sniper units use in the past.
you're an asset, grumbler. did not know that other ss units (:P) had used it in the past
Quote from: grumbler on February 11, 2012, 10:02:20 PM
and until the development of social media no one outside the fraternity even knew that there was a unit known as the "SS").
What, nobody read or saw
Jarhead?
Quote from: grumbler on February 11, 2012, 10:06:11 PM
(Just bustin' yer chops, of course, except that an actual Marine objects to "military" like he does "soldier" - Marines are weird that way)
Well, not just that way.
Quote from: Syt on February 12, 2012, 08:04:01 AM
Then call them sailors instead. Like, "Hellooooo, Sailor!"
Yes. Say, "Hey Squiddie, how the fuck ya doin in the navy?"
Seems they may have bought the blue flag from a place that sells NDSAP reproductions.
Quote from: Syt on February 12, 2012, 08:04:01 AM
Then call them sailors instead. Like, "Hellooooo, Sailor!"
Yip, there aint no Department of the Marine Corps.
Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2012, 03:56:08 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 11, 2012, 08:52:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 11, 2012, 07:37:52 PM
For the record, I wasnt personally offended either, except by sheer stupidity.
Again, they are Marines. They are the military people who are *supposed* to actually be as dim as you think all military people to be... :P
Sure. However, the whole argument here started when you came into the thread and announced that this looks nothing like the SS logo and people are seeing things that are not there. :P
It never was about "OMG this is so offensive!!!!!" for most (all?) people who posted - it was about this being stupid.
The argument started when I said it was not particularly offensive, and the article was making a big deal about nothing.
A few people started arguing with me, and then when it was clear they had lost, suddenly decided to agree with me that it was not offensive after all, and in fact the only thing notable was that Jarheads are none too bright. Cool, I am glad after 20 pages most people agree with what I said on page 2.
If someone wanted to "argue" with me, by definition they have to take a position that disputes mine. My first post was not an argument with anyone in the thread, nor was it addressed to any particular poster, nor did it quote any particular poster. It was simply an observation on the article, like most of the posts that came before it.
Berkut's rage manifests itself again. :(
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 11:57:03 AM
Berkut's rage manifests itself again. :(
i think his "rage" is justified at least this time (and most times) :berkut:
:P
edit: i probably should cool it down, else i be labeled berkut
and grumber's sock puppet
Quote from: LaCroix on February 12, 2012, 12:00:22 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 11:57:03 AM
Berkut's rage manifests itself again. :(
i think his "rage" is justified at least this time (and most times) :berkut:
:P
edit: i probably should cool it down, else i be labeled berkut and grumber's sock puppet
Years too late for that old man. Just like the Slargos-Bark thing.
QuoteCool, I am glad after 20 pages most people agree with what I said on page 2.
This would be a boring place if shit got resolved in two pages.
Who cares what Marines think about anything? Marines can say that they're not soldiers, Rick Santorum can say that he's not a fucking weirdo and that he's a legitimate candidate for President and Martinus can say that he's a Westerner and a lawyer, but saying something isn't enough to make it true.
Master of the obvious.
*Golf Clap*
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsteadfastfinances.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F11%2Fgolf-clap-charlie-sheen-emilio-estevez-in-men-at-work.jpg&hash=1b606047d1853feb3073856a3c12cc86ab6200cb)
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 11:57:03 AMYears too late for that old man. Just like the Slargos-Bark thing.
slargos
was (:() a quality poster until he disappeared. i kinda liked him, he contributed even if others always attacked him
Quote from: NeilMartinus can say that he's a lawyer
:D
you know, i really hope martinus doesn't take this too seriously. i mean, there was that one thread long ago about him asking languish... but ... i mean, come on, man. you've a decent sounding life; don't take it to heart
if martinus disappeared, it would be like if the cold war ended. no fun for anyone- except the arabs (razgovorys) of the world
Quote from: LaCroix on February 12, 2012, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 11:57:03 AMYears too late for that old man. Just like the Slargos-Bark thing.
slargos was (:() a quality poster until he disappeared. i kinda liked him, he contributed even if others always attacked him
Quote from: NeilMartinus can say that he's a lawyer
:D
you know, i really hope martinus doesn't take this too seriously. i mean, there was that one thread long ago about him asking languish... but ... i mean, come on, man. you've a decent sounding life; don't take it to heart
if martinus disappeared, it would be like if the cold war ended. no fun for anyone- except the arabs (razgovorys) of the world
True, but nobody takes Neal seriously. Least of all Marty.
neil is lovely, along with grumbler, cdm, yi and many others- all in their own special ways. except raz, which is why the whole "lol raz is trying to kill himself" posts were awesome until languish turned into paradox OT for a brief moment
Yeah.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 12, 2012, 12:35:14 PM
neil is lovely, along with grumbler, cdm, yi and many others- all in their own special ways. except raz, which is why the whole "lol raz is trying to kill himself" posts were awesome until languish turned into paradox OT for a brief moment
Raz is a part of the disfunstional family as well. Kind of like the crazy uncle or cousin everyone's got.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 12, 2012, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 11:57:03 AMYears too late for that old man. Just like the Slargos-Bark thing.
slargos was (:() a quality poster until he disappeared. i kinda liked him, he contributed even if others always attacked him
Quote from: NeilMartinus can say that he's a lawyer
:D
you know, i really hope martinus doesn't take this too seriously. i mean, there was that one thread long ago about him asking languish... but ... i mean, come on, man. you've a decent sounding life; don't take it to heart
if martinus disappeared, it would be like if the cold war ended. no fun for anyone- except the arabs (razgovorys) of the world
Slargos is also brakdreg.
Quote from: 11B4VRaz is a part of the disfunstional family as well. Kind of like the crazy uncle or cousin everyone's got.
we really don't
know that, though. what we do know is that he is an idiot to a level unseen by languish. he refuses to accept defeat. there are many threads where he embarrasses himself by continuing to argue time after time when he's been proven wrong. it's a precedent that no other languishite has yet reached, even through martinus or slargos (who at the very least stop posting one proven wrong). he claims he's stupid, yet he engages himself in arguments he has no right to participate in. there is a flaw in how his mind works, and it is permanent. it will always be there until it is ... erased
Well we all have our hangups. Slargos has his hate-fucking fixation on Marty and black people. Marty is obsessed with organized religion as his own personal demigorgon. grumbler is only happy when engaging in the most ridiculous sophostry, and I a continue to post despite my being irrelevant years ago. Thats what makes Languish worth visiting.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 12:56:18 PM
Well we all have our hangups. Slargos has his hate-fucking fixation on Marty and black people. Marty is obsessed with organized religion as his own personal demigorgon. grumbler is only happy when engaging in the most ridiculous sophostry, and I a continue to post despite my being irrelevant years ago. Thats what makes Languish worth visiting.
No one is irrelevant. ;)
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 12:56:18 PM
Well we all have our hangups. Slargos has his hate-fucking fixation on Marty and black people. Marty is obsessed with organized religion as his own personal demigorgon. grumbler is only happy when engaging in the most ridiculous sophostry, and I a continue to post despite my being irrelevant years ago. Thats what makes Languish worth visiting.
slargos acts ridiculous, which i assume is his point
grumbler is right most of the time, literally, and is very knowledgeable (as is neil)
marty has crazy analogies and is wild beyond belief
in the end, though, people are right ... they offer unique viewpoints ... and that's what makes languish worth visiting
edit: raz offers very little at all
I give Martinus the attention he needs to survive. If it wasn't for Languish, Martinus' attention whoring and drama would express themselves in negative ways in the real world, with disastrous consequences. He'd lose his job, his flat, and would end his days from a self-inflicted stiletto-heel to the brain.
I am the greatest hero that the world has ever known, at least to him.
Admitting you're codependent is the first step in recovery.
Quote from: Neil on February 12, 2012, 01:26:50 PM
I give Martinus the attention he needs to survive. If it wasn't for Languish, Martinus' attention whoring and drama would express themselves in negative ways in the real world, with disastrous consequences. He'd lose his job, his flat, and would end his days from a self-inflicted stiletto-heel to the brain.
I am the greatest hero that the world has ever known, at least to him.
I fail to see the problem.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 09, 2012, 07:32:51 PM
What would R. Lee Ermy say?
He was a POG. He was not an infantryman, never deployed as an infantryman, and his only call to glory was to serve as a Drill Sergeant safely at state-side.
He wasn't even a Gunery Sergeant (E-7). He left the Marine Corp as an Staff Sergeant (E-6) and was promoted to E-7 much later, as an honorific from the Corp for his contribution as an actor for a good image for the Marine Corp.
Yes. I know that. It was meant in jest. Calm yourself soldier.
Quote from: Siege on February 12, 2012, 02:07:28 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 09, 2012, 07:32:51 PM
What would R. Lee Ermy say?
He was a POG. He was not an infantryman, never deployed as an infantryman, and his only call to glory was to serve as a Drill Sergeant safely at state-side.
He wasn't even a Gunery Sergeant (E-7). He left the Marine Corp as an Staff Sergeant (E-6) and was promoted to E-7 much later, as an honorific from the Corp for his contribution as an actor for a good image for the Marine Corp.
So Seigy, would you be happy to serve in a scout sniper unit that had that flag as an unofficial banner ?
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
Can't tell if serious.
Completely serious.
It uses two letters with a particular font that is similar to the font the SS used. The spacing is different, the color is different. If in fact they wished to make it clear they were trying to emulate the actual SS, they did a pretty damn poor job of it - and since the concern (if there is ANY valid angst over this) would and should be over a bunch of Marines thinking they should emulate the ethos or methods of the SS then certainly the only relevant question is this - "Do *these* particular Marines intend for that flag to emulate the SS?"
And I think the answer is pretty obviously no, because other than sharing the actual letters (which is explained by them in fact being Scout-Snipers) and the lightning bolt font (which was certainly selected by them for the same reason the actual SS selected it - it looks cool), there is no obvious attempt to make their flag look like an SS flag. And if they did in fact desire that, it would be much more obvious - the coloring alone, for example.
Has the existence of the SS forever made the use of the lightning bolt S in any context suddenly verboten?
I get why this is going to be a minor tempest in a teapot, because the Marty's of the world will look for any excuse to wring their hands and bitch and cry about the nasty military, and it isn't important that their whining actually make any sense. But I am surprised that anyone else would care or make any particular note of it, other than the basic "Damnit, Marines, you should have known the Marty's of the world would use this to get all choked up about - use your fucking heads already!"
I don't look at that picture and make ANY assumptions about those men that is any different because of that flag (other than that they should be smart enough not to give ammo to the emotards). Do you? Do you seriously think that them having that flag says anything about how they operate or their philosophy or ethics?
I agree. Battle Flags, which in reality are not battle flags anymore since we don't use them in battle no more, are chosen per PLATOON, based in 3 criteria:
1- Has relevance for the Platoon.
2- Looks fucking awesomly cool.
3- It is relatively unique.
Based on this, a platoon chooses a battle name, a battle flag, and a call-sign.
During my service I have known platoons named Stalkers, Strayers, Slayers, Hell Hammers, Death Hammers, Battle Hammers, Regulators, Roger's Rovers, Blue Balls, Deliverers, Barbarians, Death Dealers, Dogs of War, Red Knights, Avengers, Raptors, Wolf pack, Dixie Dancers, etc.
These includes a few that raised eye-brows in the leadership above.
Whitey= Accused of white supremacy by some POGs after hearing their call signs (and some stupid jokes) over the net. Charges dropped after finding out the PLT Sergeant, an squad leader and two team leaders were actually african-americans. Their picked Whitey as their call-sign beacuse their were the 2nd platoon in their company, and the 3 platoons were color coded for internal company tracking as the colors of the american flag, Red, White and Blue. Since they were the 2nd platoon, White, they decided to call temselves Whiteys all over the net all the way to Division level. Not very smart, since our Division, 2nd Infantry Division, "Second To None", callsigned "Indianhead" because of the indian in the division battle flag, so many support units under the division are called some form of indian.
So it when like this:
"Indian x-ray, this is whitey 6, over."
"Whitey 6, this is indian x-ray, send it."
"Indian X-ray, this is whitey 6, break, Whitey element entering
Indian AO (area of operations) heading for OBJ (objective) Brown, break,
SITREP as follows."
And so on.
Whitney? Man.
Whitey Faggot?
That is a bit risque for a platoon battle name.
Quote from: Berkut on February 12, 2012, 11:52:29 AM
The argument started when I said it was not particularly offensive, and the article was making a big deal about nothing.
A few people started arguing with me, and then when it was clear they had lost, suddenly decided to agree with me that it was not offensive after all, and in fact the only thing notable was that Jarheads are none too bright. Cool, I am glad after 20 pages most people agree with what I said on page 2.
If someone wanted to "argue" with me, by definition they have to take a position that disputes mine. My first post was not an argument with anyone in the thread, nor was it addressed to any particular poster, nor did it quote any particular poster. It was simply an observation on the article, like most of the posts that came before it.
God Damn, you are dense. :lol:
What I love about Berkut is how he'll debate a point round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares Maelstrom and round Perdition's flames before he gives it up.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2012, 04:16:35 PM
What I love about Berkut is how he'll debate a point round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares Maelstrom and round Perdition's flames before he gives it up.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.threadbombing.com%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F2%2Fbusey_clapping.gif&hash=1ab355681683ac2324ac72d689773e37261184b8)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2012, 04:16:35 PM
What I love about Berkut is how he'll debate a point round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares Maelstrom and round Perdition's flames before he gives it up.
What ever. If he wants to think he won, I guess we should let him. If a man wants to regard himself a war gamer and then claim he can't identify Sieg runes, well I think we know what to think of him.
That's stupid Raz. A war gamer who plays Napoleonic scenarios or one who specializes in the Spanish Civil War might not.
Berk is expert in chess clock operation.
What the fuck is with the lines after every post? Annoying as fuck. ANnoying as this whole thread has become.
Lines?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 04:30:42 PM
That's stupid Raz. A war gamer who plays Napoleonic scenarios or one who specializes in the Spanish Civil War might not.
In TOAW if you create a unit with the word "SS" in it, the game immediately translates that into Sig runes. I remember one scenario the developer tried to make a submarine unit. I was a bit dismayed to find my that Submarines had an allegiance to Hitler.
that's another hilarious thread, berkut went grumbler :lmfao:
and yes, it looks like SS to me :secret:
Quote from: mongers on February 12, 2012, 02:11:22 PM
Quote from: Siege on February 12, 2012, 02:07:28 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 09, 2012, 07:32:51 PM
What would R. Lee Ermy say?
He was a POG. He was not an infantryman, never deployed as an infantryman, and his only call to glory was to serve as a Drill Sergeant safely at state-side.
He wasn't even a Gunery Sergeant (E-7). He left the Marine Corp as an Staff Sergeant (E-6) and was promoted to E-7 much later, as an honorific from the Corp for his contribution as an actor for a good image for the Marine Corp.
So Seigy, would you be happy to serve in a scout sniper unit that had that flag as an unofficial banner ?
Probably not.
Still, I does not come to my mind as nazism unless plainly stated as such by members of that unit.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 12, 2012, 04:41:52 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 04:30:42 PM
That's stupid Raz. A war gamer who plays Napoleonic scenarios or one who specializes in the Spanish Civil War might not.
In TOAW if you create a unit with the word "SS" in it, the game immediately translates that into Sig runes. I remember one scenario the developer tried to make a submarine unit. I was a bit dismayed to find my that Submarines had an allegiance to Hitler.
Can you produce the threads in which Berkut stated he had played TOAW?
Quote from: Siege on February 12, 2012, 05:22:00 PM
Quote from: mongers on February 12, 2012, 02:11:22 PM
Quote from: Siege on February 12, 2012, 02:07:28 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 09, 2012, 07:32:51 PM
What would R. Lee Ermy say?
He was a POG. He was not an infantryman, never deployed as an infantryman, and his only call to glory was to serve as a Drill Sergeant safely at state-side.
He wasn't even a Gunery Sergeant (E-7). He left the Marine Corp as an Staff Sergeant (E-6) and was promoted to E-7 much later, as an honorific from the Corp for his contribution as an actor for a good image for the Marine Corp.
So Seigy, would you be happy to serve in a scout sniper unit that had that flag as an unofficial banner ?
Probably not.
Still, I does not come to my mind as nazism unless plainly stated as such by members of that unit.
Fair enough, the proof of the pudding etc. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 08:01:25 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2012, 04:40:49 AM
Quote from: dps on February 10, 2012, 01:04:46 AM
They aren't soldiers. They're Marines.
Marines aren't soldiers?
They are Marines. I understand you could start a bar fight by calling them soldiers.
Ah, so they actually are soldiers its just they see themselves as special and think soldier is a word which degrades them?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 06:20:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 12, 2012, 04:41:52 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 04:30:42 PM
That's stupid Raz. A war gamer who plays Napoleonic scenarios or one who specializes in the Spanish Civil War might not.
In TOAW if you create a unit with the word "SS" in it, the game immediately translates that into Sig runes. I remember one scenario the developer tried to make a submarine unit. I was a bit dismayed to find my that Submarines had an allegiance to Hitler.
Can you produce the threads in which Berkut stated he had played TOAW?
Actually, yes. :ph34r:
QuoteMy problem with TOAW is that once I was good at the game, and understood how the turn timing mechanism worked, and got GOOD at managing it...I didn't like the game nearly as much as when I didn't understand it.
The turn timing mechanism was idiotic. I played TOAW from the day it came out, and I can safely say that I don't think how it ended up was ever how it was intended to begin with. The game really turned into understanding how to structure your attacks to maximize the turn length. Which is just way too much fiddling with very complex mechanics that have no real corollary that I could see to what it was supposed to be simulating.
http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,6688.15.html
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2012, 07:08:37 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 08:01:25 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 12, 2012, 04:40:49 AM
Quote from: dps on February 10, 2012, 01:04:46 AM
They aren't soldiers. They're Marines.
Marines aren't soldiers?
They are Marines. I understand you could start a bar fight by calling them soldiers.
Ah, so they actually are soldiers its just they see themselves as special and think soldier is a word which degrades them?
When you meet a marine, chances are you are meeting a pog, not an infantryman.
They have the same rate of infantrymen to support, of 1 infantryman per 7.5 pogs, than the Army.
I have met a few marines over the years, and only two were actual infantryman.
It's POGs who win the war. Show some respect.
My money is on the jarhead, unless Josq has his customary fifth of cheap booze in him.
Actually, my money is on the drunken tech student - one of them behind the wheel of a 1980s camaro can take out 20-25 infantrymen.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 12, 2012, 07:53:16 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 06:20:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 12, 2012, 04:41:52 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 12, 2012, 04:30:42 PM
That's stupid Raz. A war gamer who plays Napoleonic scenarios or one who specializes in the Spanish Civil War might not.
In TOAW if you create a unit with the word "SS" in it, the game immediately translates that into Sig runes. I remember one scenario the developer tried to make a submarine unit. I was a bit dismayed to find my that Submarines had an allegiance to Hitler.
Can you produce the threads in which Berkut stated he had played TOAW?
Actually, yes. :ph34r:
QuoteMy problem with TOAW is that once I was good at the game, and understood how the turn timing mechanism worked, and got GOOD at managing it...I didn't like the game nearly as much as when I didn't understand it.
The turn timing mechanism was idiotic. I played TOAW from the day it came out, and I can safely say that I don't think how it ended up was ever how it was intended to begin with. The game really turned into understanding how to structure your attacks to maximize the turn length. Which is just way too much fiddling with very complex mechanics that have no real corollary that I could see to what it was supposed to be simulating.
http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,6688.15.html
But he doesn't explicitly say that he's played WWII scenarios.
Actually he does. The day TOAW came out, it only had WWII scenarios. The only way he could have played it "From day one" was to play a WWII scenario. Besides, it's irrelevant. The SS turning into to Sig runes feature was not limited to WWII scenarios, which is why it was so strange.