Marines posed with flag resembling Nazi SS logo in Afghanistan

Started by FunkMonk, February 09, 2012, 04:08:36 PM

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Berkut

#90
February 10, 2012, 10:18:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:09:09 AM


Meh, I don't buy it. If they wanted it to look like the SS, they did a pretty shitty job of it, since it doesn't look like an SS symbol at all, except in passing.


Of course you don't buy it.  American Military is part of your "Tribe".

:jaron:
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Valmy

#91
February 10, 2012, 10:26:31 AM Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 10:29:06 AM by Valmy
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:09:09 AM
And yes, you have to be pretty damn sensitve to be offended by this, absolutely. It isn't about being PC though, it is about the need to manufacture outrage.

Ok...if being upset that our Marines are appearing to shit all over our values by embracing the symbolism of America's most despicable historical enemy is damn sensitive...then what the fuck does it take for a reasonable person to be offended?  Anything at all?

Now I believe these dudes know who the Waffen SS is and the conciously chose their symbol.  You disagree...for some reason.  But presuming I am right...I mean what does it take? :lol:
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Razgovory

#92
February 10, 2012, 10:29:49 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:18:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 10, 2012, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:09:09 AM


Meh, I don't buy it. If they wanted it to look like the SS, they did a pretty shitty job of it, since it doesn't look like an SS symbol at all, except in passing.


Of course you don't buy it.  American Military is part of your "Tribe".

:jaron:

I'm disappointed in you, I thought you could do better.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

11B4V

#93
February 10, 2012, 10:30:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 10:26:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:09:09 AM
And yes, you have to be pretty damn sensitve to be offended by this, absolutely. It isn't about being PC though, it is about the need to manufacture outrage.

Now I believe these dudes know who the Waffen SS is and the conciously chose their symbol. 

Agreed. Not saying their Nazi's though. Just mis-guided.
"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

LaCroix

#94
February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences

edit: i like the scout-sniper idea, maybe that played a role too

Valmy

#95
February 10, 2012, 10:35:02 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences

edit: i like the scout-sniper idea, maybe that played a role too

The Homage being exactly that: the SS was fucking cool and awesome.

I do not think the Marines are Nazis or anything.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

LaCroix

#96
February 10, 2012, 10:37:16 AM
i don't think they meant the flag to have any connection to the nazis at all. not saying they didn't know where the symbol came from, however

Valmy

#97
February 10, 2012, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:37:16 AM
i don't think they meant the flag to have any connection to the nazis at all. not saying they didn't know where the symbol came from, however

I do not think anybody is claiming they literally have Nazi sympathies.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Berkut

#98
February 10, 2012, 10:48:08 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences


I think the truth you just defined is not in the middle - it is exactly my position.

If they wanted to it to explicitly evoke the Waffen-SS, it would have been black with a Deathshead on it somewhere. It isn't, therefore they are pretty obviously NOT trying to say they are Nazis, hence I don't care beyond the fact that it is stupid to give the overly emo yet another club to beat on the US military with...
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Razgovory

#99
February 10, 2012, 10:49:09 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:15:41 AM


Depends on why I think they are using it - does the swastika have any use OTHER THAN as a representation of the Nazi's? I don't know of one myself, so I would in fact assume that someone using a swastika, no matter what color, is an attempt to associate themselves to the Nazis. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise though, but it would be a tough sell.

Obviously the letters S do in fact have some use beyond them standing for Schutszstaffel. So I am not going to assume that their use is necessarily intended to create an association.

Yes of course.  The Swastika does and has uses other then Nazis.  In fact, the Nazis borrowed it from elsewhere.  They didn't come up with it.  Romans and Greeks both used it.  It's still used in India as symbol of Jainism.  The widespread use of the symbol was seen as proof of one master race that ruled the Earth before the Nazis came to power.  Which is why the Nazis adopted it.

Second the SS symbol aren't actually letters.  They are runes.  Armanen runes to be exact thought up by some kook named Guido.  These were in inspired by some old Germanic runes.  The fact they bare a passing resemblance to the letter "S", is coincidental as the the rune and the letter come from different sources.  Your arguments about spacing, and lack of other symbols related to Nazi regalia fall completely flat, since they were depicted in numerous ways.  Color, spacing and tilt were not standardized in Nazi symbolism.  Sometimes the Runes had other objects on the flags, sometimes they were buy themselves.  The Sieg Runes were depicted in numerous ways and the way depicted on the flag of the Marines is entirely consistent with some of the most common depictions.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Razgovory

#100
February 10, 2012, 10:50:12 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences

edit: i like the scout-sniper idea, maybe that played a role too

Fallacy of Middle Ground.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Razgovory

#101
February 10, 2012, 10:53:24 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:48:08 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences


I think the truth you just defined is not in the middle - it is exactly my position.

If they wanted to it to explicitly evoke the Waffen-SS, it would have been black with a Deathshead on it somewhere. It isn't, therefore they are pretty obviously NOT trying to say they are Nazis, hence I don't care beyond the fact that it is stupid to give the overly emo yet another club to beat on the US military with...

:lol:  Amusing!  Using a Deaths head would have brought some ambiguity to it.  a Deathshead has been used before the Nazis by numerous groups.  Pirates, Hussars, etc.  The duel Sieg Runes have only been used by the Nazis like that and those explicitly imitating them.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Berkut

#102
February 10, 2012, 10:55:37 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 10, 2012, 10:35:02 AM
The Homage being exactly that: the SS was fucking cool and awesome.

QuoteI do not think anybody is claiming they literally have Nazi sympathies.

So your claim is that they think the Nazis are "fucking cool and awesome", but that they don't have Nazi sympathies?

That is some pretty damn fucking fine distinctions right there for a bunch of Marines.

I don't think they think the SS are "cool and awesome" I think they think using lightning bolts for the S's in "Scout Sniper" is cool and awesome, just like the Waffen-SS thought it was cool and awesome, because lightning bolts are powerful and cool and awesome.

I don't think they are making any effort whatsoever to make any kind of statement about what they think about the Waffen-SS at all. At worst, they are trying to be shocking by using a symbol that they know people will be shocked by, and even that is pretty speculative.

This outrage is like actually being offended by some goth with their "symbolism" that is meant to be all hardcore and outrageous, rather than actually claiming to be sympatheitc to the views of those that made the symbol offensive to begin with.

A skinhead having an SS symbol tattooed on his arm is offensive - I think it is clear he actually does believe in the philosophy behind the symbol. Some dumbass teenagers doodling a swastika on his notebook in school is just a dumbass teenager though.

These guys are the latter, not the former, until I hear something more definitive than just a picture.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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11B4V

#103
February 10, 2012, 10:58:10 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2012, 10:48:08 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 10, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
in berkut v. languish (MXVI), i think the truth is somewhere in the middle between both assertions. they knew the connection to the SS, but weren't seeking to pay homage or anything like that. they just thought it a real bad-ass symbol and decided to steal it without thinking of the consequences


I think the truth you just defined is not in the middle - it is exactly my position.


:lmfao:  :lmfao: Aw man, normally I can follow you line of reasoning, but you out there on Pluto with this one.
"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

11B4V

#104
February 10, 2012, 11:01:11 AM
US Marines posing with a self made flag using symbols that the Nazi's used=PR disaster.
"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".
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