Languish.org

Quote from: Neil on January 11, 2013, 02:13:17 PM
No blood for... whatever it is that Mali has.

I could support this if it was the first in a string of re-colonizations by France.  As disastrous as the French colonial regime was for the peoples they ruled, it was still better than them ruling themselves or being ruled by any colonial power other than Britain or the US.

Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2013, 02:11:51 PM
No blood for ... eh.. what does Mali produce?

Quote from: Phillip V on January 11, 2013, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Neil on January 11, 2013, 02:13:17 PM
No blood for... whatever it is that Mali has.

I could support this if it was the first in a string of re-colonizations by France.  As disastrous as the French colonial regime was for the peoples they ruled, it was still better than them ruling themselves or being ruled by any colonial power other than Britain or the US.

President Hollande announced that 100 years later this is the beginning of a new French West Africa.

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/51524/africa1914.jpg)

Quote from: Barrister on January 11, 2013, 02:43:09 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on January 11, 2013, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Neil on January 11, 2013, 02:13:17 PM
No blood for... whatever it is that Mali has.

I could support this if it was the first in a string of re-colonizations by France.  As disastrous as the French colonial regime was for the peoples they ruled, it was still better than them ruling themselves or being ruled by any colonial power other than Britain or the US.

President Hollande announced that 100 years later this is the beginning of a new French West Africa.

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/51524/africa1914.jpg)

That map is so very, very wrong.  Britain must always be red on a map, while France must always be blue. :mad:

Quote from: The Brain on January 11, 2013, 03:02:32 PM
Apparently all the rich people in Mali are fleeing.

Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2013, 03:04:10 PM

Quote from: The Brain on January 11, 2013, 03:02:32 PM
Apparently all the rich people in Mali are fleeing.

What, both of them?  :P

Quote from: Phillip V on January 11, 2013, 03:09:21 PM

Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2013, 03:04:10 PM

Quote from: The Brain on January 11, 2013, 03:02:32 PM
Apparently all the rich people in Mali are fleeing.

What, both of them?  :P

Hollande said one of the intervention reasons was the presence of 6,000 French citizens in Mali.

Quote from: Kleves on January 11, 2013, 03:05:37 PM
So when are the global protests scheduled?

Quote from: Kleves on January 11, 2013, 03:05:37 PM
So when are the global protests scheduled?

Quote from: FunkMonk on January 11, 2013, 03:47:51 PM
This will be France's Waterloo.

Quote from: FunkMonk on January 11, 2013, 03:47:51 PM
This will be France's Waterloo.

Quote from: FunkMonk on January 11, 2013, 03:47:51 PM
This will be France's Waterloo.

Quote from: The Brain on January 11, 2013, 02:44:26 PM
Plus you only need four colors and the map has eight.

Quote from: KRonn on January 11, 2013, 02:11:38 PM
Good luck to France in "storming the castle"!  :frog:

Quote from: Caliga on January 11, 2013, 09:41:55 PM
I look forward to the eventual French surrender.

Quote from: mongers on January 11, 2013, 10:34:34 PM
Besides I predict Shelf will thoroughly approve of this.   :bowler:

Quote from: derspiess on January 11, 2013, 11:04:57 PM
Sarko isn't in charge any more, so you can stop the pro-French BS.

Quote from: Razgovory on January 11, 2013, 11:20:04 PM
What's wrong with the French doing this anyway?

Quote from: Agelastus on January 11, 2013, 02:57:57 PM


Edit: Oh, and apparently the Cabinda enclave was independent as well.

Quote from: 11B4V on January 12, 2013, 01:55:30 AM
so, this was done with a coalition of the willing?

and to boot you put up a link from a subscription sight.  :moon:

Quote

Malian army drives back Islamist rebels with French help


PARIS/BAMAKO (Reuters) - Malian government troops drove back Islamist rebels from a strategic central town after France intervened on Friday with air strikes to halt advances by the militants controlling the country's desert north.

Western governments, particularly former colonial power France, had voiced alarm after the al Qaeda-linked rebel alliance captured the town of Konna on Thursday, a gateway towards the capital, Bamako, 600 km (375 miles) south.

President Francois Hollande said France would not stand by to watch the rebels push southward. Paris has repeatedly warned that the Islamists' seizure of the country's north in April gave them a base to attack neighboring African countries and Europe.

"We are faced with blatant aggression that is threatening Mali's very existence. France cannot accept this," Hollande, who recently pledged Paris would not meddle in African affairs, said in a New Year speech to diplomats and journalists.

The president said resolutions by the U.N. Security Council, which in December sanctioned an African-led military intervention in Mali, meant France was acting in accordance with international law.

French military operations in support of the Malian army against Islamist rebels "will last as long as necessary," France's U.N. ambassador, Gerard Araud, wrote in a letter to the Security Council obtained by Reuters.

In Washington, a U.S. official told Reuters the Pentagon was weighing options in Mali, including intelligence-sharing with France and logistics support.

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius confirmed France had carried out air strikes against the rebels to prevent them conquering the whole of Mali. He refused to reveal further details, such as whether French troops were on the ground.

France's intervention immediately tipped the military balance of power, with Malian government forces quickly sweeping back into Konna, according to local residents.

"The Malian army has retaken Konna with the help of our military partners. We are there now," Lieutenant Colonel Diaran Kone told Reuters, adding that the army was mopping up Islamist fighters in the surrounding area.

EU SPEEDS UP DEPLOYMENT

A military operation had not been expected until September due to the difficulties of training Malian troops, funding the African force and deploying during the midyear rainy season. But Mali's government appealed for urgent military aid from France on Thursday after Islamist fighters took Konna.

EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton called on Friday for "accelerated international engagement" and said the bloc would speed up plans to deploy 200 troops to train Malian forces, initially expected in late February.

Blaise Compaore, president of neighboring Burkina Faso, which is acting as a mediator in the Malian crisis, said his country would contribute a contingent of ground troops toward the African Union mission to retake Mali's north.

Burkina Faso had been due to host peace talks between the Malian government and some of the rebel factions on Thursday, but those have been postponed until January 21 due to the outbreak of hostilities.

The capture of Konna by the rebels - who have imposed strict Sharia Islamic law in northern Mali - had caused panic among residents in the towns of Mopti and Sevare, 60 km (40 miles) to the south. Calm returned, however, after residents reported Western soldiers and foreign military aircraft arriving late on Thursday at Sevare's airport - the main one in the region.

Military analysts said the Western soldiers may have been the first deployment of French special forces.

They voiced doubt, however, whether Friday's action heralded the start of the final operation to retake northern Mali - a harsh, sparsely populated terrain the size of France - as neither the equipment nor ground troops were ready.

"We're not yet at the big intervention," said Mark Schroeder, director for Sub-Saharan Africa analysis for the global risk and security consultancy Stratfor. He said France had been forced to act when the Islamists bore down on Sevare, a vital launching point for future military operations.

"The French realized this was a red line that they could not permit to be crossed," he said.

STATE OF EMERGENCY

More than two decades of peaceful elections had earned Mali a reputation as a bulwark of democracy in a part of Africa better known for turmoil - an image that unraveled in a matter of weeks after a military coup last March that paved the way for the Islamist rebellion.

Mali is Africa's third largest gold producer and a major cotton grower, and home to the fabled northern desert city of Timbuktu - an ancient trading hub and UNESCO World Heritage site that hosted annual music festivals before the rebellion.

Interim President Dioncounda Traore, under pressure for bolder action from Mali's military, declared a state of emergency on Friday. Traore will fly to Paris for talks with Hollande on Wednesday.

"Every Malian must henceforth consider themselves a soldier," Traore said on state TV, calling on mining and telecoms companies to contribute to the war effort. He said he requested French air support with the blessing of West African allies.

The chief of operations for Mali's Defense Ministry said Nigeria and Senegal were among the other countries providing military support on the ground. Fabius said those countries had not taken part in the French operation.

A spokesman for the Nigerian air force said planes had been deployed to Mali for a reconnaissance mission, not for combat.

The French Foreign Ministry stepped up its security alert on Mali and parts of neighboring Mauritania and Niger on Friday, extending its red alert - the highest level - to include Bamako. France has eight nationals in Islamist hands in the Sahara after a string of kidnappings.

A spokesman for al Qaeda's north African arm, AQIM, urged France, in a video posted on the Internet, to reconsider its intervention. "Stop your assault against us or you are digging your own sons' graves," said Abdallah Al-Chinguetti.

Quote from: Syt on January 12, 2013, 06:57:49 AM
Why oh why are those Islamist rebels so Mali-justed?

Quote from: Syt on January 12, 2013, 06:57:49 AM
Why oh why are those Islamist rebels so Mali-justed?

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 13, 2013, 02:42:24 AM
We should send Tim back to Mali.

Quote from: Tonitrus on January 13, 2013, 09:18:43 AM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 13, 2013, 02:42:24 AM
We should send Tim back to Mali.

You want to send Tim back too?  :(

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 13, 2013, 02:42:24 AM
We should send Tim back to Mali.

Quote from: Tonitrus on January 13, 2013, 09:18:43 AM
You want to send Tim back too?  :(

QuoteFrench military intervention in Mali expands
By Edward Cody, Sunday, January 13, 1:40 PM

PARIS — Mirage 2000D fighter-bombers struck Islamist targets in northern Mali on Sunday, expanding the reach of a French military intervention, and more French ground troops flew into Bamako, the capital, for what increasingly looked like the beginning of a long campaign.

French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said the Obama administration has promised to aid the antiterrorism operation in Mali by providing logistics help, satellite intelligence and in-flight refueling for French warplanes in what he qualified as a show of "total solidarity from the United States."

Le Drian, in a radio and television appearance, said that several planeloads of additional arrivals brought to 400 the number of French soldiers in Bamako to provide rear-area support and protect French citizens. Another 150, he added, have been deployed 300 miles to the north around Mopti, the main town near the line between government-controlled territory and the northern two-thirds of the country that has been ruled by Islamist militias for the past seven months.

Fears that a southward offensive by several Islamist militias was about to overrun Mopti led President Francois Hollande to order the unilateral French military intervention beginning Friday. Le Drian said the Islamist offensive, which was halted by French helicopter gunship raids and Mirage bombing runs, could have punched all the way to Bamako if Hollande had not acted swiftly, implying that Malian army defenses had collapsed.

The minister said more French troops and airplanes are on the way, including advanced Rafale fighter-bombers from bases in France. He did not say where they would be based in Africa. Mirage aircraft currently involved in the operation have been flying from nearby French bases, including one in N'Djamena, the capital of Chad, but some helicopters and other aircraft have been flying from a Malian air base at Sevare.

"There are raids all the time," Le Drian said.

Human Rights Watch, a U.S.-based watchdog organization, said it had documented the killing of 10 civilians, including three children, in the French bombing Friday and Saturday around the disputed town of Konna, just north of Mopti.

In addition to the French deployment, several African countries have promised to dispatch soldiers immediately to form a vanguard of what eventually will become a pan-African intervention force. With French training and other help, the African force will be assigned to restore government authority over the 250,000-square-mile region that has become a terrorist haven.

"We will put into place the military deployment necessary to achieve our goals," Le Drian said. "France is at war with terrorism wherever it is to be found."

French officials indicated Hollande's strategy is to support the Malian army along the separation line near Mopti, providing air support and military advisers but letting Malian soldiers do the fighting. At the same time, they said, French airplanes will continue to bomb Islamist targets farther north wherever they can be detected.

Residents reported airstrikes Sunday against Islamist positions at Gao, one of the north's main cities. A militia spokesman contacted by telephone said fighter-bombers also attacked targets at Lere near the Mauritanian border and at Douentza, news agencies reported.

The French operation is scheduled to last in this form at least until an African force can be organized and Malian army units can be trained to send a joint force to restore government authority in all of northern Mali. That could take months, specialists predicted, raising the prospect that the French involvement could be long and risky.

This is particularly true because the Malian army has been largely leaderless since a bungled coup d'etat in March, led by Capt. Amadou Haya Sango. Moreover, the Malian leader who appealed to Hollande for help, Dioncounda Traore, is a provisional president with limited authority; he was installed after the coup in what was supposed to be a political reorganization on the way to new elections that were never held.

The main Islamist organizations in northern Mali are several branches of al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM), an Algerian-based group that long has thrived in the region on hostage-taking and cigarette trafficking; Ansar al-Dine, a Tuareg militia closely allied with AQIM, and the Movement for Unity and Jihad in West Africa, an AQIM breakaway group.

The Azawad National Liberation Movement, another armed Tuareg group, drove Malian army forces out of the northern stretches of the country last April, exploiting the military coup that left the army command in disarray and the country without civilian leadership. Since then, however, the Tuareg secular movement has been pushed aside by AQIM and Ansar leaders who have imposed strict Muslim law and turned the area into a terrorist sanctuary.

Tuaregs, who differ ethnically from black people who populate the southern part of the country, have long sought — sometimes with arms — to separate or at least gain autonomy from the black-run government. Against that background, the plans for a black African intervention force to restore Bamako's authority seemed to raise the danger of long-term strife even if the AQIM and other terrorist leaders are forced to retreat into more remote areas.

A senior French security official recently acknowledged that the success of a foreign intervention in some measure depends on efforts by France and others to provide enough aid to the Azawad National Liberation Movement to persuade it to combat the Islamist militias alongside the Malian army and its African backers. So far, he said, that has not been achieved.

QuoteFrance fails to free intelligence agent held in Somalia; Paris sends more troops to Mali
By Edward Cody, Published: January 12

PARIS — As France reinforced its intervention forces in Mali with additional aircraft and soldiers, French commandos launched a failed raid on the other side of Africa in a vain attempt to rescue an intelligence officer held captive for 3½ years in Somalia, the Defense Ministry announced Saturday.

The unsuccessful overnight rescue attempt, in the Somali town of Bulomarer, was separate from President Francois Hollande's decision Friday to intervene on the ground and in the air to shore up the crumbling Malian army against Islamist guerrilla groups that have controlled the northern two-thirds of the country for more than seven months.

But both operations seemed to propel France into a position of new prominence in Western efforts to prevent Islamist terrorist groups from establishing themselves — as they did in Afghanistan and Somalia — in countries without solid state institutions that could become launchpads for attacks on European or U.S. interests in Africa or elsewhere around the world.

The failed rescue in Somalia, which cost France the lives of at least two people, dramatized the dangers facing the French military as it takes on the Islamist groups in hostile regions of northern Africa where they have taken root. The Mali-based extremists, for instance, hold seven French hostages and threatened retaliation for Hollande's willingness to dispatch French soldiers to help restore Malian state authority.

Four French hostages captured in September 2010 at a northern Niger uranium mine and two abducted in northern Mali in November 2010 are held by the region's main Islamist group, the mainly Algerian al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM). A seventh French citizen was taken into custody two months ago on the Mali-Nigeria border by the Movement for Unity and Jihad in West Africa, an AQMI spinoff.

Some of their families have questioned Hollande's resolution to support the government in Mali, fearing it could lead to the execution of their loved ones. But Hollande has consistently replied that the threat of international military action was the best means of pressure on the hostage takers.

Failure in Somalia

The Somalia rescue operation was designed to liberate Denis Allex, the official identity of an agent of the French intelligence service, the General Directorate for External Security (DGSE). Allex and a colleague were abducted by Somali Islamists in July 2009, soon after the pair, posing as journalists, checked into a hotel in Mogadishu, the Somali capital.

In fact, reports at the time said, they were assigned by the DGSE to train the close protection squad of Somalia's beleaguered transitional government as part of a French military aid program. Allex's colleague escaped his captors a month later, but Allex remained in the Islamists' hands in what the Defense Ministry described as "inhumane conditions."

Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian told a news conference that "everything indicates" Allex was killed by his captors as DGSE commandos assaulted his place of imprisonment at Bulomarer, an Islamist-controlled town about 70 miles southwest of Mogadishu.

During the fighting, one French soldier was killed and another went missing and may have been killed, Le Drian said. Seventeen members of the Somali al-Shabab guerrilla group were killed, the ministry said in a statement.

"The [French] victims' families have been informed," it added. "The Defense Ministry addresses them its most sincere condolences and joins in their grief."

Al-Shabab issued a statement after the clash claiming that Allex is still alive but will be "judged within two days" for his relation to the attack, suggesting he would be executed. A wounded French soldier is also in their hands, al-Shabab claimed, apparently referring to the soldier reported missing by Le Drian.

"In the end, it will be the French citizens who will taste the inevitable bitter consequences of the irresponsible attitude of their government with regard to the hostages," the group added.

Defense officials did not explain why they chose to launch the raid at the same time as France began its military intervention in Mali; Le Drian said the two were "totally unconnected." French experts suggested the DGSE decided to act because it had obtained new information that enabled them to pinpoint Allex's place of detention with a previously unavailable precision.

Mission in Mali

It was unclear what political fallout would flow from the failure in Somalia. Before the misadventure became known, leaders from across France's political spectrum had backed Hollande's decision to intervene in Mali.

But Herve Morin, a centrist who served as defense minister under President Nicolas Sarkozy, cracked the consensus, noting that France so far is alone in the Mali intervention despite Hollande's earlier insistence that he would step in only to help an African intervention force.

In a statement after meeting with his military staff, Hollande reiterated that the Mali operation would last as long as necessary but described it as preparation for the arrival of a putative African intervention force.

Le Drian said "several hundred" French ground troops and an unspecified number of aircraft were involved so far in the Mali intervention. A number of French soldiers were seen deploying in Bamako, Mali's capital, to protect French citizens.

A helicopter pilot became the first French casualty as gunship raids were carried out during the night against guerrillas along the line separating government- and Islamist-held territory around the town of Konna, 300 miles northeast of Bamako, the French Defense Ministry reported.

Le Drian credited the helicopter raids with turning the tide against the Islamist guerrillas seeking to move south from Konna toward the regional center of Mopti. Government spokesmen in Bamako affirmed that, following the French helicopter raids, Konna was back in army hands. But other reports said control of the town was still uncertain.

QuoteObama: U.S. military entered Somalia's airspace

U.S. military combat aircraft "briefly entered" the airspace of Somalia Friday in support of a French-led rescue mission, President Barack Obama told Congress in a letter Sunday.

On Friday, French troops mounted an unsuccessful attempt to rescue a French national reported to be a French intelligence service agent captured in Somalia in 2009. The agent, believed to be held by the Islamic group Al-Shabaab, was reportedly killed in the raid, as was a French soldier. (More on the raid here from the Associated Press.)

Obama's letter does not mention the result of the military action in the farming village of Bulomarer on the Somali coast and describes the U.S. involvement in the episode as minor.

"United States forces provided limited technical support to the French forces in that operation, but took no direct part in the assault on the compound where it was believed the French citizen was being held hostage. United States combat aircraft briefly entered Somali airspace to support the rescue operation, if needed," Obama said in the letter. "These aircraft did not employ weapons during the operation. The U.S. forces that supported this operation left Somalia by approximately 8:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on January 11, 2013."

Obama's letter (posted here) says it was submitted "consistent with" the War Powers Resolution, the 1973 law imposing limits on the use of U.S. forces in combat situations abroad. Obama, like previous presidents, has not acknowledged the law's constitutionality.

Quote from: Phillip V on January 11, 2013, 01:53:14 PM
"This operation will last as long as needed." -François Hollande

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsi.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FWO-AM297B_MALI_G_20130108184851.jpg&hash=d51af6be9a40cc3fa21a8f6c07b5ab86c34299eb)

Quote from: Phillip V on January 14, 2013, 10:07:21 AM
Islamists Overrun Malian Garrison Town

Rebels now within 250 miles of Mali's capital. They were at 420 miles before French intervention.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 14, 2013, 10:09:06 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.lemde.fr%2Fimage%2F2013%2F01%2F13%2F534x267%2F1816293_3_41ea_une-soixantaine-de-musulmans-dont-une_4edbc2a2ab7d3fba60d8d8e20c0be323.jpg&hash=59d694712f5c1f89aa10bd5cf01e39f86ff5cb20)

Now, I'm scared.
Photo taken in front of the French Embassy in London.

Quote from: Lettow77 on January 14, 2013, 11:14:36 AM
Previously my sympathies were with the gallant secessionists of the north, but I now move my support wholeheartedly to the peerless elan of French arms, which I am sure will once more win undying glory worthy of Europe's greatest state and one of the two poles of civilization.

Quote from: Malthus on January 14, 2013, 10:16:28 AM
I was expecting the last one to be holding a sign reading "Burma Shave".  :P

Quote
French intervention in Mali: what happens next?

Landing in Bamako, the capital of Mali, it's hard to believe that this is a country at war.

Airport staff greeted us with their customary courtesy, as dozens of women in colourful dresses and butterfly headgear patiently queued outside to meet their family members arriving from Paris. The evening streets were quiet, as we drove past the yellow castle on the river which Colonel Gaddafi built as offices for the Malian government.

Yet many, if not most, people in Bamako have friends and relatives in the north where the fighting is taking place. Our driver's sister is a nurse at the hospital in Gao, which has been under Islamist rule for the last nine months. He said that she told him there were far more dead than injured amongst the Islamists who've been targeted by French bombing raids for the past two days.

The people of Gao stayed inside during the bombing, which destroyed the old customs house, part of the airport and other places which the Islamists had used as their headquarters.

People were especially happy to see that the police had been attacked. In recent months, the Islamist police in Gao have dragged suspected thieves and others to Sharia courts which have ordered the amputation of limbs and other punishments. Even smoking could earn you a flogging.

The Islamists have melted away into the desert or back into the population. They no longer control the city.

"Now the people of Gao are going out on the streets to have a smoke just because they can!" he said. "And women are going out without headscarves."

The jihadi groups made the mistake of leaving the cover of the cities of Gao, Kidal and Timbuktu and heading for Konna, south of their northern strongholds. When the French attacked Konna from the air, the jihadis had no choice but to flee, exposing themselves along the roads and in the open desert, allowing the French to bomb again.
.....

QuoteAdm. Edouard Guillaud, the French chief of staff, told Europe 1 television that ground operations began overnight. "Now we're on the ground," Admiral Guillaud said. "We will be in direct combat within hours."

Soon after he spoke, French news outlets reported contact between French and Islamist forces in the village of Diabaly, north of Ségou on the approaches to Bamako, the capital.

"I cannot say whether it will be one hour or 72 hours," Admiral Guillaud said. He said French troops were familiar with "conflict of a guerrilla nature to which we are accustomed in this kind of region."
...
The jihadists are "dug in" at Diabaly, Defense Minister Le Drian said Tuesday at a news conference. From that strategic town, they "threaten the south," he said, adding: "We face a well-armed and determined adversary."

Mr. Le Drian also acknowledged that the Malian Army had not managed to retake the town of Konna, whose seizure by the rebels a week ago provoked the French intervention. "We will continue the strikes to diminish their potential," the minister said.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2F16%2Fworld%2FJP-DESERT%2FJP-DESERT-articleLarge.jpg&hash=df267df5b1e7469a362302f22921019bf4f1887d)

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 08:14:37 AM
All this footage of the French Army reminds us all that they really need to update their camouflage.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 09:31:07 AM
Desert or woodland.  Vietnam era pattern needs to be replace by some of the digital ones. Multicam(new name is stupid) or CadPat.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 14, 2013, 01:28:24 PM

Quote from: Malthus on January 14, 2013, 10:16:28 AM
I was expecting the last one to be holding a sign reading "Burma Shave".  :P

Only a handful would get that reference.

And "Burka Shave" works better anyway.

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 10:05:26 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 09:31:07 AM
Desert or woodland.  Vietnam era pattern needs to be replace by some of the digital ones. Multicam(new name is stupid) or CadPat.

We didn't wear that in Nam.  It was plain olive drab or in some cases tiger stripe.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 16, 2013, 09:30:04 AM
I hope the US gets in on some of this action beyond "logistical" with some really nice close air support.  Islamist fighters deserve the finest munitions that can be delivered.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 09:31:07 AM
Desert or woodland.  Vietnam era pattern needs to be replace by some of the digital ones. Multicam(new name is stupid) or CadPat.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 10:33:25 AM

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 10:05:26 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 09:31:07 AM
Desert or woodland.  Vietnam era pattern needs to be replace by some of the digital ones. Multicam(new name is stupid) or CadPat.

We didn't wear that in Nam.  It was plain olive drab or in some cases tiger stripe.

When did it start? After Nam?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 16, 2013, 12:33:37 PM
I always thought US Army woodland pattern came into vogue earlier than that, like '76 or '77.  Huh.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 16, 2013, 12:39:45 PM
lol, Private Benjamin OD greens.

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 10:05:26 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 09:31:07 AM
Desert or woodland.  Vietnam era pattern needs to be replace by some of the digital ones. Multicam(new name is stupid) or CadPat.

We didn't wear that in Nam.  It was plain olive drab or in some cases tiger stripe.

Quote from: mongers on January 16, 2013, 12:54:37 PM
Man, you were in Nam, did you frag any officers or exfiltrate out of Cambodia on a boat ?

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Not seeing this mentioned much yet, but apparently al-Q-linked militants took some hostages (including Americans) & killed others in Algeria because of the Mali intervention.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/algerian-security-official-says-islamists-kidnap-8-foreigners-from-bp-oil-installation/2013/01/16/0db1c254-5fd2-11e2-9dc9-bca76dd777b8_story.html

Now should we follow others' examples and blame the French for this, holding mass protests & burning French flags?

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 02:41:51 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Not seeing this mentioned much yet, but apparently al-Q-linked militants took some hostages (including Americans) & killed others in Algeria because of the Mali intervention.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/algerian-security-official-says-islamists-kidnap-8-foreigners-from-bp-oil-installation/2013/01/16/0db1c254-5fd2-11e2-9dc9-bca76dd777b8_story.html

Now should we follow others' examples and blame the French for this, holding mass protests & burning French flags?

Vous estes soit avec nous, soit contre nous.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 02:41:51 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Not seeing this mentioned much yet, but apparently al-Q-linked militants took some hostages (including Americans) & killed others in Algeria because of the Mali intervention.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/algerian-security-official-says-islamists-kidnap-8-foreigners-from-bp-oil-installation/2013/01/16/0db1c254-5fd2-11e2-9dc9-bca76dd777b8_story.html

Now should we follow others' examples and blame the French for this, holding mass protests & burning French flags?

Soit vous êtes avec nous, soit vous êtes contre nous.

Quote from: Tamas on January 17, 2013, 03:21:28 AM
Gesundheit!

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 17, 2013, 03:15:47 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 02:41:51 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Not seeing this mentioned much yet, but apparently al-Q-linked militants took some hostages (including Americans) & killed others in Algeria because of the Mali intervention.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/algerian-security-official-says-islamists-kidnap-8-foreigners-from-bp-oil-installation/2013/01/16/0db1c254-5fd2-11e2-9dc9-bca76dd777b8_story.html

Now should we follow others' examples and blame the French for this, holding mass protests & burning French flags?

Soit vous êtes avec nous, soit vous êtes contre nous.

FYP

QuoteThirty-five hostages and 15 kidnappers have been killed in southern Algeria, according to the group holding the hostages.

Thursday's reported deaths came a day after dozens of foreigners and Algerians were taken hostage by heavily armed fighters near the In Amenas gas field.

The fighters said they seized the hostages in retaliation for Algeria letting France use its airspace to launch operations against rebels in northern Mali.

The spokesman for the Masked Brigade, which had claimed responsibility for the abductions on Wednesday, told a Mauritanian news agency that the deaths were a result of an Algerian government helicopter attack on a convoy holding kidnappers and hostages.

The spokesman said that Abou el-Baraa, the leader of the kidnappers, was also killed in the helicopter attack.

The hostage drama began with the ambush of a bus carrying employees from the gas plant to the nearby airport, according to the Algerian government, which said three vehicles of heavily armed men were involved. Two people were killed on Wednesday.

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 02:37:05 PM

Quote from: mongers on January 16, 2013, 12:54:37 PM
Man, you were in Nam, did you frag any officers or exfiltrate out of Cambodia on a boat ?

Hard to talk about those days, man.

QuoteFrench agent 'executed' by al-Shabab
Somali armed group says it will release video of execution "any time it decides" after announcing death of the hostage.

Al-Shebab, the Somalian armed Islamist group, say they have executed a French intelligence agent who they had held captive since 2009.

The al-Qaeda linked group said they killed Denis Allex on Wednesday.

French officials dispute the claim, saying they believe Allex was killed soon after a failed rescue attempt on Saturday.

A senior al-Shebab official told the AFP news agency on Thursday that "audio and video [of the execution] are available and will be released any time we decide".

He added that the hostage was killed in Bulomarer, a rebel-controlled town south of the Somalian capital, Mogadishu.

Sheikh Abdiasis Abu Musab, the spokesman for military operation for al-Shebab, said: "Let Muslims enjoy his execution and the French cry."

French troops launched an unsuccessful raid on the town to free Allex on Saturday, which French officials say left two French soldiers and 17 rebel fighters dead.

Al-Shebab had sentenced the hostage to death earlier on Wednesday, saying in a statement it had "reached a unanimous decision to execute the French intelligence officer".

The group also cited "France's increasing persecution of Muslims around the world, its opressive anti-Islam policies at home, French military operations in ... Afghanistan and, most recently in Mali."

'Manipulating the media'

The French army accused al-Shebab of "manipulating the media" on Wednesday.

A video showing Allex appealing to the French president Francois Hollande was released by the group in July.

"Mr President, I am still alive, but for how long? That depends upon you, for if you do not reach an agreement for my release, then I am afraid this will be the last message you receive from me," said Allex reading from a sheet of paper.

"My life depends on you."

Allex, believed to be a psuedonym for the agent, was kidnapped in Mogadishu in July 2009 along with another French intelligence officer, Marc Aubriere from the Directorate-General for External Security.

Aubriere escaped captivity a month later.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 17, 2013, 07:22:06 AM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 17, 2013, 03:15:47 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 02:41:51 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Not seeing this mentioned much yet, but apparently al-Q-linked militants took some hostages (including Americans) & killed others in Algeria because of the Mali intervention.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/algerian-security-official-says-islamists-kidnap-8-foreigners-from-bp-oil-installation/2013/01/16/0db1c254-5fd2-11e2-9dc9-bca76dd777b8_story.html

Now should we follow others' examples and blame the French for this, holding mass protests & burning French flags?

Soit vous êtes avec nous, soit vous êtes contre nous.

FYP

I disagree about the second vous êtes.

QuoteAn Algerian military operation is under way at a gas facility in eastern Algeria where hostages were being held, Algeria's state news agency reports.

Four foreign hostages were freed but the operation resulted in a number of "victims", APS agency said.

Algerian soldiers had been surrounding the facility near In Amenas that kidnappers occupied on Wednesday, after killing a Briton and an Algerian.

Reports quoting militants said at least 34 hostages and 14 kidnappers died.

Militants told Mauritania's ANI news agency that seven foreign hostages were still alive after the Algerian military raid.

Nearly 600 Algerian workers and four foreign hostages - two from Scotland, one from France and one from Kenya - were freed during the operation, APS reported.

An Irishman who had been kidnapped was freed and has spoken to his family, Ireland's foreign ministry said.

APS quoted an unnamed source as saying that "about half" the foreign hostages had been freed.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 17, 2013, 10:52:09 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 17, 2013, 07:22:06 AM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 17, 2013, 03:15:47 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 02:41:51 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Not seeing this mentioned much yet, but apparently al-Q-linked militants took some hostages (including Americans) & killed others in Algeria because of the Mali intervention.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/algerian-security-official-says-islamists-kidnap-8-foreigners-from-bp-oil-installation/2013/01/16/0db1c254-5fd2-11e2-9dc9-bca76dd777b8_story.html

Now should we follow others' examples and blame the French for this, holding mass protests & burning French flags?

Soit vous êtes avec nous, soit vous êtes contre nous.

FYP

I disagree about the second vous êtes.

But you spelled it properly this time. Mission accomplished! :)

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 17, 2013, 10:55:18 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21063370 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21063370)

Algeria siege: Military operation under way



Algerian Army assault, Russian-style?

Quote
British Prime Minister Cameron told Algeria's Prime Minister Abdelmalek Sellal he was "extremely concerned" about the "very grave and serious situation." Japan has asked Algeria to immediately stop operations that are "endangering hostages' lives." The U.S. has asked Algeria for clarification on the loss of life, and says that it doesn't know if the American hostages are alive.
--------
[UPDATE 1:46 p.m.] UK Prime Minister David Cameron says: "It's a fluid, ongoing and very uncertain situation... we should be prepared for further bad news."

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 17, 2013, 05:09:50 PM
US grants request to airlift a Frog Mech Battalion.

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 05:19:22 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 17, 2013, 05:09:50 PM
US grants request to airlift a Frog Mech Battalion.

Not that I oppose doing so, but we're better friends to them than they deserve sometimes.

Quote from: DGuller on January 17, 2013, 05:27:17 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 05:19:22 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 17, 2013, 05:09:50 PM
US grants request to airlift a Frog Mech Battalion.

Not that I oppose doing so, but we're better friends to them than they deserve sometimes.

Yeah, we're transporting someone else to the front lines to battle our enemy.  How selfless of us.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 17, 2013, 11:07:12 AM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 17, 2013, 10:52:09 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 17, 2013, 07:22:06 AM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 17, 2013, 03:15:47 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 16, 2013, 02:41:51 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Not seeing this mentioned much yet, but apparently al-Q-linked militants took some hostages (including Americans) & killed others in Algeria because of the Mali intervention.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/algerian-security-official-says-islamists-kidnap-8-foreigners-from-bp-oil-installation/2013/01/16/0db1c254-5fd2-11e2-9dc9-bca76dd777b8_story.html

Now should we follow others' examples and blame the French for this, holding mass protests & burning French flags?

Soit vous êtes avec nous, soit vous êtes contre nous.

FYP

I disagree about the second vous êtes.

But you spelled it properly this time. Mission accomplished! :)

I did it properly the first time too, just properly for 1613.

I'm a going to let it slide this time but taking shit from a Frenchman on french is total BS.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 17, 2013, 05:41:12 PM
I would think their assistance for everything and anything sinc 9/11 has more than made up for 1986.
Spain, on the other hand...

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 17, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
I want crapes now.

Quote from: sbr on January 17, 2013, 07:19:24 PM
I thought only fruits ate crapes.

QuoteThe current unconfirmed Order of Battle of the French forces in Mali (as of Jan. 16) is made of:

    4x Rafale, 2x C-135FR, 1x A310, 1x C130, 3x C-160 Transal, 4x Mirage 2000D, 1x CN235 at N'Djamena, Chad
    2x Mirage F1CR, 8x Gazelle, 4x Super Puma at Bamako, Mali

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 17, 2013, 08:01:08 PM
On the footage the other day, they were unloading box after box of Milans.

Quote from: DGuller on January 17, 2013, 05:27:17 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 17, 2013, 05:19:22 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 17, 2013, 05:09:50 PM
US grants request to airlift a Frog Mech Battalion.

Not that I oppose doing so, but we're better friends to them than they deserve sometimes.

Yeah, we're transporting someone else to the front lines to battle our enemy.  How selfless of us.

Quote from: Zoupa on January 18, 2013, 12:09:49 AM
And Hollande saying his election would be the end of the Francafrique... The puppets still have their strings attached it seems.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 17, 2013, 07:56:10 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8046%2F8385335100_c38db0ccb5_z.jpg&hash=698fe59079472739c42dee1cb8bc2fb12ee3f1db)

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 17, 2013, 07:58:47 PM
There's no dishonor in a French War Boner, man.

Quote from: derspiess on January 16, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Not seeing this mentioned much yet, but apparently al-Q-linked militants took some hostages (including Americans) & killed others in Algeria because of the Mali intervention.

QuoteNow should we follow others' examples and blame the French for this, holding mass protests & burning French flags?

Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2013, 10:43:33 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 17, 2013, 07:58:47 PM
There's no dishonor in a French War Boner, man.

:yes:

The French are like the High Elves/Eldar army in Warhammer. :nerd:

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 18, 2013, 03:09:13 PM
Is that credible?

QuoteFrom what I've read the Algeria attack's been described as very well planned - for example they'd spent some time studying the layout of the camp - and international. Isn't it more like opportunistic blaming than an actual response?

Quote

QuoteNow should we follow others' examples and blame the French for this, holding mass protests & burning French flags?

:huh:

Quote from: derspiess on January 18, 2013, 03:36:21 PM
I thought the terrorist group in question cited Mali as the reason. 

Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2013, 10:41:44 AM
Reading this makes me want to pick up my French lessons again.  :blush: :cool:

Quote from: Caliga on January 18, 2013, 03:57:29 PM

Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2013, 10:41:44 AM
Reading this makes me want to pick up my French lessons again.  :blush: :cool:

Relax.  In French "hommes" means people, Mart, not homos. :)

Quote from: The Brain on January 18, 2013, 03:10:14 PM

Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2013, 10:43:33 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 17, 2013, 07:58:47 PM
There's no dishonor in a French War Boner, man.

:yes:

The French are like the High Elves/Eldar army in Warhammer. :nerd:

Really?

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 18, 2013, 04:58:47 PM
Do High Elves bathe?

Quote from: Caliga on January 18, 2013, 03:57:29 PM

Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2013, 10:41:44 AM
Reading this makes me want to pick up my French lessons again.  :blush: :cool:

Relax.  In French "hommes" means people, Mart, not homos. :)

Quote from: The Brain on January 18, 2013, 03:10:14 PM

Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2013, 10:43:33 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 17, 2013, 07:58:47 PM
There's no dishonor in a French War Boner, man.

:yes:

The French are like the High Elves/Eldar army in Warhammer. :nerd:

Really?

Quote from: Martinus on January 18, 2013, 10:38:57 AM
Don't know why, but whenever the French are invading something in Africa, it makes me positively giddy.

Allons enfants de la patrie!  :frog:

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

QuoteIn recent days, that unhinged prophecy has acquired a grim new currency. In Mali, French paratroopers arrived this month to battle an advancing force of jihadi fighters who already control an area twice the size of Germany. In Algeria, a one-eyed Islamist bandit organized the brazen takeover of an international gas facility, taking hostages that included more than 40 Americans and Europeans.

Coming just four months after an American ambassador was killed by jihadists in Libya, those assaults have contributed to a sense that North Africa — long a dormant backwater for Al Qaeda — is turning into another zone of dangerous instability, much like Syria, site of an increasingly bloody civil war. The mayhem in this vast desert region has many roots, but it is also a sobering reminder that the euphoric toppling of dictators in Libya, Tunisia and Egypt has come at a price.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2F20%2Fworld%2Fafrica%2Fmilitant%2Fmilitant-articleInline-v2.jpg&hash=2c837860e18d570674cd09ae2e1f32e1621559cf)(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2F20%2Fworld%2Fjp-militant%2Fjp-militant-articleInline-v2.jpg&hash=a8d6f15fe2d57d6375f18d4a8675bd3e424fc5a1)

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 20, 2013, 08:29:20 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8yjNbcKkNY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8yjNbcKkNY)

Quote from: derspiess on January 19, 2013, 11:10:09 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Dunno.  Aren't most people like that?  Anyway I'm not really as anti-French as you might think. I was very much pro-French during the Sarko era.  And I still wish the best for them, despite the fact that they'd just as soon watch the entire US go up in flames.

Quote from: derspiess on January 19, 2013, 11:10:09 PM
And I still wish the best for them, despite the fact that they'd just as soon watch the entire US go up in flames.

Quote from: Viking on January 20, 2013, 11:23:16 AM
<humming>Springtime for 'sama and Caliphate. Winter for Israel and 'states. </humming>

Quote from: Razgovory on January 20, 2013, 02:27:18 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 19, 2013, 11:10:09 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Dunno.  Aren't most people like that?  Anyway I'm not really as anti-French as you might think. I was very much pro-French during the Sarko era.  And I still wish the best for them, despite the fact that they'd just as soon watch the entire US go up in flames.

So it's dependent on them having a conservative as a President?

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 03:58:24 AM

Quote from: Viking on January 20, 2013, 11:23:16 AM
<humming>Springtime for 'sama and Caliphate. Winter for Israel and 'states. </humming>

You know Osama is dead right?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 19, 2013, 11:24:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

Quote from: Caliga on January 21, 2013, 12:38:41 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 19, 2013, 11:24:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Quote from: Caliga on January 21, 2013, 12:38:41 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 19, 2013, 11:24:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Quote from: Caliga on January 21, 2013, 12:38:41 PMI'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 12:52:26 PM
Americans moan about Europe not wanting to pull their weight in the world and then bitch about the one country that does :P

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 21, 2013, 12:48:10 PM

Quote from: Caliga on January 21, 2013, 12:38:41 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 19, 2013, 11:24:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Meh, that was a short-ass honeymoon.  French-hate can be traced as far as back as the Jeffersonian-Hamiltonian split over the French Revolution, Genet pissing off George Washington, and even further back to the Seven Years' War on the North American continent.

DeGaulle gets the rap because it's still chic to do so amongst red state mouthbreathers.  Not without some merit, but it's also a rather dated reason.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 01:00:08 PM
I think when America's replaced as a global power they'll be like France. From the outside you're both very similar. Infuriating to the end, but normally, probably, reluctantly right :lol:

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 12:52:26 PM
De Gaulle's magnificent. Americans moan about Europe not wanting to pull their weight in the world and then bitch about the one country that does :P

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 01:46:11 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 12:52:26 PM
De Gaulle's magnificent. Americans moan about Europe not wanting to pull their weight in the world and then bitch about the one country that does :P

Utter tripe.  Complete codswallop.  Pulling out of the NATO command structure and weakening the military alliance that defended France against Warsaw Pact invasion is the exact opposite of pulling one's one weight.  France under De Gaulle invented the tactic of fucking with your most important ally as a pathetic ploy to restore emasculated national pride.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 02:46:36 PM
We got shit for wearing sunglasses.  :lol:

WHERE IS YOUR WEENIE NOW?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
Utter tripe.  Complete codswallop.  Pulling out of the NATO command structure and weakening the military alliance that defended France against Warsaw Pact invasion is the exact opposite of pulling one's one weight.  France under De Gaulle invented the tactic of fucking with your most important ally as a pathetic ploy to restore emasculated national pride.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 21, 2013, 02:55:17 PM
Here's the thing, the french arent pretending to do God's work or defending democracy around the world.

They get away with being assholes because they assume being asshole.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 03:22:57 PM
And France is a country that pulls its own weight and you all are bitching about it.

Quote from: mongers on January 21, 2013, 03:23:27 PM
Interesting to see ex-French FM Bernard Kouchner say it was imperative that the UK join France in this mission.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 21, 2013, 02:55:17 PM
Here's the thing, the french arent pretending to do God's work or defending democracy around the world.

They get away with being assholes because they assume being asshole.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 03:22:57 PM
How did pulling out of the NATO command structure weaken NATO?

QuoteAnd France is a country that pulls its own weight and you all are bitching about it.

Quote from: DGuller on January 21, 2013, 03:43:24 PM
Ok, guys, fess up:  who gave Yi a thesaurus for Christmas?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 03:34:31 PM
The same way that unifying French and British command in WWI strengthened the allies, but the opposite.

QuoteCodswallop.  Tripe.  Bollocks.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 01:46:11 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 12:52:26 PM
De Gaulle's magnificent. Americans moan about Europe not wanting to pull their weight in the world and then bitch about the one country that does :P

Utter tripe.  Complete codswallop.  Pulling out of the NATO command structure and weakening the military alliance that defended France against Warsaw Pact invasion is the exact opposite of pulling one's one weight.  France under De Gaulle invented the tactic of fucking with your most important ally as a pathetic ploy to restore emasculated national pride.

Quote from: Zanza on January 21, 2013, 02:13:20 PM
A French soldier in Mali with an awesome mask:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUBd4l0j.jpg&hash=14d96d07629770a8fce858f9a7ee3383df91e565)

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 12:52:26 PM

Quote from: Caliga on January 21, 2013, 12:38:41 PMI'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Roosevelt's fondness for French fascists didn't help <_<

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:01:06 PM
Can you see any differences between WWI and the Cold War that might make them poor analogies?

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 04:01:43 PM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 01:46:11 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 12:52:26 PM
De Gaulle's magnificent. Americans moan about Europe not wanting to pull their weight in the world and then bitch about the one country that does :P

Utter tripe.  Complete codswallop.  Pulling out of the NATO command structure and weakening the military alliance that defended France against Warsaw Pact invasion is the exact opposite of pulling one's one weight.  France under De Gaulle invented the tactic of fucking with your most important ally as a pathetic ploy to restore emasculated national pride.

Wait, going alone is now a coasting let others carry the weight tactic now?

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 04:22:03 PM
What was the burden of subordinating yourself to NATO command?

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 04:08:46 PM
It's not like Britain was much better on this issue.  Nobody was certain how to deal with the French governments.  Fortunately Darlan was murdered, and the Nazis took over Vichy controlled France which clarified the issue quite a bit.  That's one thing you got to give the Germans Credit for, they were good at making politics simpler for their enemies.

QuoteIn this case, I'd say so.  They relieved themselves of the burden of subordinating themselves to NATO command, while reaping the benefits-- you know NATO would have come to France's defense as if it had remained a full member during that time.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:27:04 PM
Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 04:12:49 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:01:06 PM
Can you see any differences between WWI and the Cold War that might make them poor analogies?

In terms of the value of unity of command?  No.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:27:04 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 04:08:46 PM
It's not like Britain was much better on this issue.  Nobody was certain how to deal with the French governments.  Fortunately Darlan was murdered, and the Nazis took over Vichy controlled France which clarified the issue quite a bit.  That's one thing you got to give the Germans Credit for, they were good at making politics simpler for their enemies.

Britain was better. The UK always supported de Gaulle and the Free French despite occasional (:lol:) fights. We helped fund them too. Churchill never tried to 'deal' with another leader however emotional his relationship with de Gaulle got.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 12:52:26 PM
Roosevelt's fondness for French fascists didn't help <_<

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 04:29:32 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:27:04 PM
Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

I can envision scenarios where they would've stayed put.

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 04:29:32 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:27:04 PM
Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

I can envision scenarios where they would've stayed put.

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 04:29:32 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:27:04 PM
Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

I can envision scenarios where they would've stayed put.

Quote from: PDH on January 21, 2013, 04:36:29 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 04:29:32 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:27:04 PM
Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

I can envision scenarios where they would've stayed put.

I really can't.  The French might have fucked things up playing with their own rules, but they would have played.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:39:55 PM
Then you're mad.

QuoteEdit: It goes without saying that those are precisely the sort of issues a proud country like the US would probably object to :P

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:30:06 PM
Does the lack of war not matter?

Quote from: PDH on January 21, 2013, 04:45:40 PM
Americans distrust France because the French are too much like Americans.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 05:02:21 PMYou really want to go down that road Shelf?  Of course we're talking about a hypothetical.  The Warsaw Pact did in fact not invade Western Europe.  Therefore everything is hunky dory?

QuoteMaybe. Perhaps it is hard to buy an air of superiority from a nation that is so clearly not superior.

Quote from: Barrister on January 21, 2013, 12:46:24 PM

Quote from: Caliga on January 21, 2013, 12:38:41 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 19, 2013, 11:24:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Being anti-french has a long and glorious history in this country. -_-

Quote from: Tamas on January 21, 2013, 05:10:54 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 21, 2013, 12:46:24 PM

Quote from: Caliga on January 21, 2013, 12:38:41 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 19, 2013, 11:24:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Being anti-french has a long and glorious history in this country. -_-

Canada is like preserving and nurturing a piece of France within her borders.  :huh:

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 04:23:12 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 04:22:03 PM
What was the burden of subordinating yourself to NATO command?

:rolleyes:

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 05:12:21 PM

Quote from: Tamas on January 21, 2013, 05:10:54 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 21, 2013, 12:46:24 PM

Quote from: Caliga on January 21, 2013, 12:38:41 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 19, 2013, 11:24:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Being anti-french has a long and glorious history in this country. -_-

Canada is like preserving and nurturing a piece of France within her borders.  :huh:

And?

Quote from: Tamas on January 21, 2013, 05:10:54 PM

Quote from: Barrister on January 21, 2013, 12:46:24 PM

Quote from: Caliga on January 21, 2013, 12:38:41 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 19, 2013, 11:24:55 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 19, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Being anti-french has a long and glorious history in this country. -_-

Canada is like preserving and nurturing a piece of France within her borders.  :huh:

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 04:23:12 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 04:22:03 PM
What was the burden of subordinating yourself to NATO command?

:rolleyes:

You gonna answer that one?

Quote from: Barrister on January 21, 2013, 05:17:02 PM
Edit: dammit Garbon for going in the exact same direction as I did, but getting his post in first. <_<

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 04:27:04 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 04:08:46 PM
It's not like Britain was much better on this issue.  Nobody was certain how to deal with the French governments.  Fortunately Darlan was murdered, and the Nazis took over Vichy controlled France which clarified the issue quite a bit.  That's one thing you got to give the Germans Credit for, they were good at making politics simpler for their enemies.

Britain was better. The UK always supported de Gaulle and the Free French despite occasional (:lol:) fights. We helped fund them too. Churchill never tried to 'deal' with another leader however emotional his relationship with de Gaulle got.

It's not just Darlan. The US pushed Giraud who was less of a collaborationist but also less of a leader. That the French resistance in France acknowledged only de Gaulle as their leader helped clarify issues too. I mean right up until the end Roosevelt wanted to deal with other French leaders. Like the resistance Ike told de Gaulle that as far as he was concerned he was the leader of the French and would always treat him as such, regardless of Roosevelt.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 21, 2013, 05:23:10 PM
I never cared for French troops in NATO-Warsaw Pact war games. Their divisions were weak, being brigade sized, and by the time you got to play with them the Soviets were getting into the Frankfurt area. Yay! I get reinforcements! Boo! It is too late. 

:nerd:

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 05:24:54 PM
That's untrue.  Churchill tried to deal with the French government after the armistice, in particular he requested they move their fleet to Britain.  When they refused he order the fleet sunk and the French severed relations with him.

QuoteGiraud was engaged in Casablanca conference with Churchill.  That sounds like "dealing" to me.

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 05:17:48 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 04:23:12 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 04:22:03 PM
What was the burden of subordinating yourself to NATO command?

:rolleyes:

You gonna answer that one?

It's pretty obvious, Raz.  If you don't subordinate yourself to NATO command, you have a lot more freedom in how you run your armed forces.

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 05:35:39 PM
So you have to do everything yourself?  That seems more burdensome not less.  Besides, NATO wasn't the Warsaw Pact.  Every member ran it's own military.  As the French built their own nuclear force instead of being content to sit under the American nuclear umbrella it seems like they were taking on more of a burden not less.

Quote from: PDH on January 21, 2013, 05:30:39 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 21, 2013, 05:23:10 PM
I never cared for French troops in NATO-Warsaw Pact war games. Their divisions were weak, being brigade sized, and by the time you got to play with them the Soviets were getting into the Frankfurt area. Yay! I get reinforcements! Boo! It is too late. 

:nerd:

In Victory Games Nato, the French armor just all stacked up into a nice stack and took the line somewhere in the center.

edit - maybe that was the Third World War games...

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 05:35:39 PM
So you have to do everything yourself?  That seems more burdensome not less. 

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 03:22:57 PM
And France is a country that pulls its own weight and you all are bitching about it.

Quote from: derspiess on January 21, 2013, 05:46:16 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2013, 05:35:39 PM
So you have to do everything yourself?  That seems more burdensome not less. 

I don't see flexibility & independence as a burden, but I think that speaks to some deep differences between you & me.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 21, 2013, 05:37:47 PM

Quote from: PDH on January 21, 2013, 05:30:39 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 21, 2013, 05:23:10 PM
I never cared for French troops in NATO-Warsaw Pact war games. Their divisions were weak, being brigade sized, and by the time you got to play with them the Soviets were getting into the Frankfurt area. Yay! I get reinforcements! Boo! It is too late. 

:nerd:

In Victory Games Nato, the French armor just all stacked up into a nice stack and took the line somewhere in the center.

edit - maybe that was the Third World War games...

they have all merged in my mind also.  :Embarrass:

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 05:09:43 PM
I wasn't talking about a hypothetical. I'm asking what damage de Gaulle's withdrawal from the NATO command structure actually did.

There was very detailed agreements to reintegrate France within a single command structure in the event of hostilities. The French didn't withdraw a single troop from their zone of Germany. They also developed an independent nuclear force that, by necessity, was based on a different policy than that of the US and one that I think was actually an extra useful deterrent on the Russians.

You said it was the opposite of pulling their weight. So how was it the opposite of pulling their weight. I think, like Gaullists, you're placing too much emphasis on the symbolic here.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 21, 2013, 06:25:29 PM

No stacking issues with French units in VG's NATO;  their entry is simply variable and staggered by turn.

:rolleyes:  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 06:44:46 PMNow how about you elaborate on how we get pissed off *when* they pull their weight.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 06:44:46 PM
Now how about you elaborate on how we get pissed off *when* they pull their weight.

Quote from: Jacob on January 21, 2013, 06:50:21 PM
Wasn't he saying that what you describe *was* pulling their weight, and you are pissed because you define it as not doing so?

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 07:04:58 PM
It was a flippant line really.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
Utter tripe.  Complete codswallop.  Pulling out of the NATO command structure and weakening the military alliance that defended France against Warsaw Pact invasion is the exact opposite of pulling one's one weight.  France under De Gaulle invented the tactic of fucking with your most important ally as a pathetic ploy to restore emasculated national pride.

Quote from: PDH on January 21, 2013, 06:47:57 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 21, 2013, 06:25:29 PM

No stacking issues with French units in VG's NATO;  their entry is simply variable and staggered by turn.

:rolleyes:  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

All I remember is that time that Brian rolled the worst ever set of die rolls in the north and little Syt was saved.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 05:09:43 PM

QuoteMaybe. Perhaps it is hard to buy an air of superiority from a nation that is so clearly not superior.

Exactly :lol:

Quote from: Zoupa on January 23, 2013, 01:41:57 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 21, 2013, 05:09:43 PM

QuoteMaybe. Perhaps it is hard to buy an air of superiority from a nation that is so clearly not superior.

Exactly :lol:

:lol: :bowler: :hug:

Quote from: garbon on January 23, 2013, 02:04:30 PMI don't know. Don't hear any French tunes when I go out in New York meanwhile I heard many American tracks while out in Paris.

Quote from: Jacob on January 23, 2013, 02:18:17 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 23, 2013, 02:04:30 PMI don't know. Don't hear any French tunes when I go out in New York meanwhile I heard many American tracks while out in Paris.

Further proof that the French are superior, what with their sophisticated tastes and multi-lingual abilities :)

Quote from: garbon on January 23, 2013, 02:29:56 PM

Quote from: Jacob on January 23, 2013, 02:18:17 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 23, 2013, 02:04:30 PMI don't know. Don't hear any French tunes when I go out in New York meanwhile I heard many American tracks while out in Paris.

Further proof that the French are superior, what with their sophisticated tastes and multi-lingual abilities :)

They sure don't act like they are multi-lingual. <_<

Quote from: viper37 on January 24, 2013, 02:32:24 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 23, 2013, 02:29:56 PM

Quote from: Jacob on January 23, 2013, 02:18:17 PM

Quote from: garbon on January 23, 2013, 02:04:30 PMI don't know. Don't hear any French tunes when I go out in New York meanwhile I heard many American tracks while out in Paris.

Further proof that the French are superior, what with their sophisticated tastes and multi-lingual abilities :)

They sure don't act like they are multi-lingual. <_<

The Superior will not adapt to the inferior.  :P

They often are multi-lingual, but it may not be english.  Or, if you went to Paris, they simply don't like tourists and will do everything they can to make you feel unwelcome, unless you learn parisian french (argot).

QuoteFrance has enhanced security at home as well, where the Mali engagement was quickly followed by a ramping up of the police and army presence at government buildings, prominent tourist sites, and subway and railway stations. Armed French soldiers in uniform are patrolling inside the subway, riding trains and watching main streets like the Champs-Élysées.

Security has also been tightened around President François Hollande, a Socialist who came into office last May vowing to reduce the symbolism of an imperial presidency.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2F25%2Fworld%2Ffrance%2Ffrance-popup.jpg&hash=d7639034d57766021e5ffa1a506258612e6e0fa0)

Quote from: Phillip V on January 25, 2013, 12:16:07 AM
France has enhanced security at home as well, where the Mali engagement was quickly followed by a ramping up of the police and army presence at government buildings, prominent tourist sites, and subway and railway stations. Armed French soldiers in uniform are patrolling inside the subway, riding trains and watching main streets like the Champs-Élysées.

Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2013, 11:46:49 PM
Yeah I got to see this. Soldiers were present when I saw Notre Dame, Champs-Élysées and Arc de Triomphe. My anti-cop senses were tingling and confused.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 27, 2013, 09:53:00 AM

Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2013, 11:46:49 PM
Yeah I got to see this. Soldiers were present when I saw Notre Dame, Champs-Élysées and Arc de Triomphe. My anti-cop senses were tingling and confused.

Bet they were, as you were getting eyeballed pretty hard with your looks of indeterminate origin.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 27, 2013, 09:54:39 AM
In Greece, he would have been Rodney King'ed.

Quote from: Razgovory on January 26, 2013, 10:58:02 PM
I have only eaten a crepe once.  It was in middle school for a French class.  It was like an angel crapped in my mouth.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 27, 2013, 09:53:00 AM

Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2013, 11:46:49 PM
Yeah I got to see this. Soldiers were present when I saw Notre Dame, Champs-Élysées and Arc de Triomphe. My anti-cop senses were tingling and confused.

Bet they were, as you were getting eyeballed pretty hard with your looks of indeterminate origin.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 27, 2013, 09:53:00 AM

Quote from: garbon on January 26, 2013, 11:46:49 PM
Yeah I got to see this. Soldiers were present when I saw Notre Dame, Champs-Élysées and Arc de Triomphe. My anti-cop senses were tingling and confused.

Bet they were, as you were getting eyeballed pretty hard with your looks of indeterminate origin.

Quote from: Phillip V on January 27, 2013, 10:01:32 AM
What physical traits does he have?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 27, 2013, 10:11:15 AM

Quote from: Phillip V on January 27, 2013, 10:01:32 AM
What physical traits does he have?

He's one of those shades of brown that no matter how many times you try, when you try to put it back in the 120 box set of Crayola Crayons according to order, it just never seems to look quite right.
You just can't peg him.   :P

Quote"(..) the other's -- black. I think. At least part black. Or Hispanic. I think you know, there's possibly some Filipino in there. Yeah, possibly some Filipino. I mean, if he's—if he's black, it's definitely diluted. I mean, one of his parents must be white. What the hell is Jessica Alba for that matter?"

Quote from: mongers on January 27, 2013, 05:20:44 PM
Report on the liberation of Goa, on the way to Timbuktu:

Quote from: The Brain on January 28, 2013, 12:04:36 AM

Quote from: mongers on January 27, 2013, 05:20:44 PM
Report on the liberation of Goa, on the way to Timbuktu:

:wacko:

Quote from: mongers on January 27, 2013, 05:20:44 PM
Report on the liberation of Goa, on the way to Timbuktu:

http://www.channel4.com/news/mali-thousands-celebrate-liberation-of-gao-video (http://www.channel4.com/news/mali-thousands-celebrate-liberation-of-gao-video)

Interesting scenes.

Quote from: mongers on January 27, 2013, 05:20:44 PM
Report on the liberation of Goa, on the way to Timbuktu:

http://www.channel4.com/news/mali-thousands-celebrate-liberation-of-gao-video (http://www.channel4.com/news/mali-thousands-celebrate-liberation-of-gao-video)

Interesting scenes.

Quote from: mongers on January 27, 2013, 05:20:44 PM
Report on the liberation of Goa, on the way to Timbuktu:

http://www.channel4.com/news/mali-thousands-celebrate-liberation-of-gao-video (http://www.channel4.com/news/mali-thousands-celebrate-liberation-of-gao-video)

Interesting scenes.

Quote from: Tamas on January 28, 2013, 02:53:45 AM
Is the Foreign Legion there?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 28, 2013, 03:18:26 AM

Quote from: Tamas on January 28, 2013, 02:53:45 AM
Is the Foreign Legion there?

Probably;  can't imagine an operation this big without them.

Quote from: Grey Fox on January 28, 2013, 07:10:29 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 28, 2013, 03:18:26 AM

Quote from: Tamas on January 28, 2013, 02:53:45 AM
Is the Foreign Legion there?

Probably;  can't imagine an operation this big without them.

They are there. The first footage from the Airport back when this started were of Foreign Legion soldiers.

Quote from: Tamas on January 28, 2013, 03:24:23 AM
It is lucky the world press is not sniffing as hard for omg-outrages than they do with the US Army then, I guess. I hope France will succeed.

QuoteIslamist rebels torch Timbuktu manuscript library

Islamist fighters fleeing Mali's ancient Saharan city of Timbuktu as French and Malian troops closed in set fire to a South African-funded library there containing thousands of priceless manuscripts, the city's mayor said on Monday.

"The rebels sit fire to the newly-constructed Ahmed Baba Institute built by the South Africans ... this happened four days ago," Halle Ousmane told Reuters by telephone from Bamako. He said he had received the information from his chief of communications who had travelled south from the city a day ago.

Ousmane was not able to immediately say how much the building had been damaged. French and Malian troops were securing the city on Monday.

The mayor said the Islamist rebels, who had occupied the fabled trading town since a Tuareg-led rebellion captured it on April 1 from government forces, also torched his office and the home of a member of parliament.

The Ahmed Baba Institute, one of several libraries and collections in the city containing fragile ancient documents dating back to the 13th century, is named after a Timbuktu-born contemporary of William Shakespeare and houses more than 20,000 scholarly manuscripts. Some were stored in underground vaults.

Fighters from the Islamist alliance in north Mali, which groups AQIM with Malian Islamist group Ansar Dine and AQIM splinter MUJWA, had also destroyed ancient shrines sacred to moderate Sufi Moslems, provoking international outrage.

They had also applied amputations for thieves and stoning of adulterers under sharia law.

Quote from: Tamas on January 28, 2013, 08:44:31 AM
I keep thinking about how funny that is. Namely that the French get away doing the whole FL thing - arming a bunch of ex-maffia Russians and East Euros and giving them carte blanche to kill negroes.

QuoteThese Burkinabes felt aggrieved by the reputation of the Tuaregs for enslaving black Africans – a history that still plays itself out in the Tuareg caste system – where "Bella", dark-skinned members of the tribe who were once slaves, still occupy the lowest positions in Tuareg society.

QuoteIt's difficult to unpick Tuareg views about their fair skin and whether this still translates into a sense of superiority over black Africans. Their neighbours obviously feel that little has changed since the days when the Tuareg regularly raided and pillaged black African pastoralists, and then kept their people as slaves.

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2013, 08:51:58 AM
This is why I don't feel so bad that the West has a history of stealing cultural artifacts. judicious use of deploying thermobaric munitions on Islamists.

Quote from: garbon on January 28, 2013, 08:51:58 AM
This is why I don't feel so bad that the West has a history of protecting stealing cultural artifacts. :(

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 28, 2013, 02:10:14 PM
I find it interesting that the South Africans are funding museums in Mali.

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 28, 2013, 02:14:10 PM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 28, 2013, 02:10:14 PM
I find it interesting that the South Africans are funding museums in Mali.

Yeah. They wanted to help preserve African culture so were funding big museums and preservation efforts :(

Quote
But Shamil Jeppie, director of the Tombouctou Manuscripts Project at the University of Cape Town, rejects the idea that this is about the kind of consistent ideology found in other groups we call Islamist. "These guys, you can't give them such cred," says Jeppie. "It's just thuggery." He says the locals had been resisting the fighters' authority, and he feels that the attacks on the shrines are a form of punishment. (Jeppie also reports that, so far, Timbuktu's great collections of Islamic manuscripts, which he studies, seem not to have been threatened.) The puritanical religious views that Ansar Dine claims to espouse, Jeppie says, derive from the relatively recent Wahhabi movement, "born in Arabia in the 18th century," and have been taught to today's fighters by patrons from Saudi Arabia.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 28, 2013, 06:15:30 PM
2e régiment étranger de parachutistes airdrop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5W9PKR6FdU&feature=youtu.be

Quote from: mongers on January 28, 2013, 09:16:39 PM
Be in no doubt about the source of much of the instability in the region, the channel Four news reporter went to a house in near liberated Gao, which was used by the Islamists to make explosives.

Amongst the detritus the Malian soldier accompanying them found written material including records of payments to fighters and the source of the funds - records of money transfers from Saudi Arabia. 

See the report here:
http://www.channel4.com/news/catch-up/ (http://www.channel4.com/news/catch-up/)

Quote from: mongers on January 28, 2013, 09:43:48 PM
Liked this line from John Snow,channel 4 news:
"Bin Laden is dead, but the effluent of Al Qaeda is absolutely everywhere"

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 29, 2013, 03:25:25 AM
People with Ivy/Oxbridge educations who want to show it off?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 29, 2013, 09:04:32 AM
Pop quiz: why is the 1er regiment etranger de parachutistes not being used in Mali?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 29, 2013, 09:04:32 AM
Pop quiz: why is the 1er regiment etranger de parachutistes not being used in Mali?

Quote from: mongers on January 29, 2013, 09:06:17 AM
Too easy a question for this board, because it was disbanded for it's mutiny in the 61 Algerian Putsch ?

Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on January 29, 2013, 09:43:13 AM
Wonder how the world would have gone had de Gaul been wacked that day?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 29, 2013, 09:07:52 AM

Quote from: mongers on January 29, 2013, 09:06:17 AM
Too easy a question for this board, because it was disbanded for it's mutiny in the 61 Algerian Putsch ?

Yup.

Quote
Lindsey Hilsum @lindseyhilsum    11h
#heightofmadness: Teaching the kids outside our compound in #Gao #Mali how to dance, Gangnam-style.

Quote from: mongers on January 29, 2013, 03:26:12 PM
Liked this tweet from reporter on the ground:

Quote
Lindsey Hilsum @lindseyhilsum    11h
#heightofmadness: Teaching the kids outside our compound in #Gao #Mali how to dance, Gangnam-style.

'Western' 'culture' triumphs over jihadists.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 30, 2013, 02:09:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqvIZYc6nx0&feature=youtu.be

Tigre helos in action. Needs a rock soundtrack.

Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 02:12:26 PM
Gangnam Style is Western Culture?

Quote from: Lettow77 on January 30, 2013, 04:17:49 PM
K-pop stinks of western influences.

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 04:30:45 PM

Quote from: Lettow77 on January 30, 2013, 04:17:49 PM
K-pop stinks of western influences.

:)

There you go. :cheers:

Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 04:41:54 PM

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 04:30:45 PM

Quote from: Lettow77 on January 30, 2013, 04:17:49 PM
K-pop stinks of western influences.

:)

There you go. :cheers:

Ah so this is a hatred for the modern globalized world thing.  I was trying to figure out in what twisted weird way a KOrean song was part of western culture.

Quote
What justice was like under the jihadis in Mali

Issa Alzouma made a living from digging gravel for construction companies until they cut off his hand.

Arrested last December on suspicion of stealing a motorbike that he says was his anyway, he was brought before the Sharia court in Gao and sentenced to amputation.

Over the last two days, I've had something of a tour of the justice system the Mujao, which is Movements for Jihad and Unity, installed in Gao, Mali, during their nine months of rule. They took over what used to be the mayor's office and turned it into the  "justice" centre.

Two men, accused of homosexuality, who were supposed to be executed last Friday, showed me the room they were taken to be tried and beaten. On the floor I found a file with lists of names – these were the women who had been whipped for failing to wear the veil, and the men punished for smoking.

A large airless room in the back of the compound became the Sharia court. Here they and other prisoners were brought to sit in front of two or three Islamic judges who they call marabouts. They said that the judges were mainly Pakistanis and some Tunisians and the whole proceedings were overseen by the Moroccan jihadi in charge of the town, known as Abdel Karim. As the judges passed sentence, a crowd of jihadi supporters behind them watched. Some of the women were flogged right there in the court house. A black patch in front marks the place where cigarettes were ground into the sand and smokers whipped. A few yards away is the stadium where the residents of Gao once watched football and were now forced to come to watch amputations.

One of the most disturbing things I've learnt is that those condemned to these harsh punishments were all black Malians – Sonrai, Peul, Bamba, and Della, traditionally the slaves of the Tuareg. The jihadis were a mixture of Malian Arabs and Tuaregs as well as many foreign jihadis.

"They would never do this to one of their own," said Issa.
......

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 08:03:12 PM
I'd think it's safe to post this Korean Bubblegum Pop figure who found fame via youtube/intertubs and sung it in English, fairly close to the left end of that line, not in bed with Madonna, but close.

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 08:03:12 PM
WTF is wrong with you man ?

Quote
I'd think it's safe to post this Korean Bubblegum Pop figure who found fame via youtube/intertubs and sung it in English, fairly close to the left end of that line, not in bed with Madonna, but close.

Quote from: Gangnam style lyricsNa je nun ta sa ro un in gan jo gin yo ja
Ko pi han ja ne yo yu rul a neun pum gyo gi nun yo ja
Ba mi o myon shim ja ngi tu go wo ji nun yo ja
Gu ron ban jon i nun yo ja

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 08:18:57 PM

Quote
What justice was like under the jihadis in Mali

Rest of article here, well worth a read:
http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/what-justice-was-like-under-the-jihadis-in-mali/1644 (http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/what-justice-was-like-under-the-jihadis-in-mali/1644)

Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 09:53:51 PM

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 08:18:57 PM

Quote
What justice was like under the jihadis in Mali

Rest of article here, well worth a read:
http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/what-justice-was-like-under-the-jihadis-in-mali/1644 (http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/what-justice-was-like-under-the-jihadis-in-mali/1644)

That is exactly what the Taliban did right down to using soccer fields for beheadings.  Wow.

Quote from: Tonitrus on January 30, 2013, 10:27:40 PM
We should blame the British Empire for liberating the Middle East.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 30, 2013, 09:53:50 PM
I hate Korea.

Quote from: Lettow77 on January 30, 2013, 04:17:49 PM
K-pop stinks of western influences.

Quote from: Kleves on January 30, 2013, 11:21:11 PM
What do you mean "we," you filthy freeloading canuck?

Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 09:28:49 PM

:unsure:

Quote from: Gangnam style lyricsNa je nun ta sa ro un in gan jo gin yo ja
Ko pi han ja ne yo yu rul a neun pum gyo gi nun yo ja
Ba mi o myon shim ja ngi tu go wo ji nun yo ja
Gu ron ban jon i nun yo ja

Now granted he does say 'style' in the song.

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 10:01:06 PM

Because they include some of the same people, the ones that survived,  and many are financed by the same people, the ones who've had no difficulty surviving. 

So until such time that the sources of the finance and propaganda are tackled, then the West will continue to play wack-a-rat across the middle latitudes of Eastern hemisphere.

Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 02:12:26 PM
Gangnam Style is Western Culture?

Quote from: Viking on January 30, 2013, 11:35:00 PM
Yes

It is made with the western music scale and conforming with western musical conventions. The text just happens to be in Korean.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 11:32:21 PM

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 10:01:06 PM

Because they include some of the same people, the ones that survived,  and many are financed by the same people, the ones who've had no difficulty surviving. 

So until such time that the sources of the finance and propaganda are tackled, then the West will continue to play wack-a-rat across the middle latitudes of Eastern hemisphere.

We know exactly who's founding them. Saudi Arabia. :angry:

Quote from: Valmy on January 31, 2013, 12:03:01 AM

Quote from: Viking on January 30, 2013, 11:35:00 PM
Yes

It is made with the western music scale and conforming with western musical conventions. The text just happens to be in Korean.

Oh and I suppose everytime somebody takes a yoga class in Oklahoma City suddenly it is in the Indian cultural sphere?  Cultures borrow from each other and make stuff their own all the time.

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 12:04:51 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 11:32:21 PM

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 10:01:06 PM

Because they include some of the same people, the ones that survived,  and many are financed by the same people, the ones who've had no difficulty surviving. 

So until such time that the sources of the finance and propaganda are tackled, then the West will continue to play wack-a-rat across the middle latitudes of Eastern hemisphere.

We know exactly who's founding them. Saudi Arabia. :angry:

Do you mean the government of Saudi Arabia, or one or more Saudi Arabians?  Or does it hurt to have to think that hard?

Quote from: Neil on January 30, 2013, 11:22:20 PM

Quote from: Kleves on January 30, 2013, 11:21:11 PM
What do you mean "we," you filthy freeloading canuck?

Part of the Empire, the vessel from which civilization flows.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 30, 2013, 09:53:50 PM
I hate Korea.

Quote from: Viking on January 31, 2013, 12:28:31 AM
Oh, so you realize that the whole thing is complicated? Just because Gangman Style is western doesn't mean it isn't Korean as well. And yes, yoga classes which are held in ok city are part of indian culture as well as western.

Quote from: Tamas on January 31, 2013, 03:21:32 AM

Quote from: Neil on January 30, 2013, 11:22:20 PM

Quote from: Kleves on January 30, 2013, 11:21:11 PM
What do you mean "we," you filthy freeloading canuck?

Part of the Empire, the vessel from which civilization flows.

Psellus have some bad news for you

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 10:21:04 AM
So has Fidel Castro announced yet that he's pulling out of Angola?

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 10:21:04 AM
So has Fidel Castro announced yet that he's pulling out of Angola?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 10:22:14 AM

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 10:21:04 AM
So has Fidel Castro announced yet that he's pulling out of Angola?

wut?

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 10:48:08 AM

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 10:22:14 AM

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 10:21:04 AM
So has Fidel Castro announced yet that he's pulling out of Angola?

wut?

I'd expect you of all people to get that one.  All my hopes are on Seedy now :(

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 01:52:48 PM
Is that all there is to get?  That Cuba used to have troops in Angola?  :huh:

If so, I repeat: wut?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 01:52:48 PM
Is that all there is to get?  That Cuba used to have troops in Angola?  :huh:

If so, I repeat: wut?

QuoteGood evening! I'm Chevy Chase, and so are you!

Our top story tonight: Cuban premier Fidel Castro announced that he is pulling out of Angola. A frustrated Angola could not be reached for comment.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2013, 03:01:16 PM
I was in Korea during the Chevy Chase era and Armed Forces television only got episodes intermittently.  :sleep:

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 02:52:04 PM
Seedy, you failed me.  You were my last, best hope :(

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 03:28:06 PM
So what-- I was 3 at the time.  It's a classic Weekend Update line.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 03:44:48 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 02:52:04 PM
Seedy, you failed me.  You were my last, best hope :(

Cuban foreign policy is no laughing matter.

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 31, 2013, 04:54:33 PM
Oh, I remember Cubans in Africa. I did a high school report on the proxy conflicts between East and West in Africa.

I even made the maps on posterboard. That was High Tech back in the day.

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 03:56:41 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 03:44:48 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 02:52:04 PM
Seedy, you failed me.  You were my last, best hope :(

Cuban foreign policy is no laughing matter.

Well, you did almost make up for it by going off half-cocked and mentioning a conspiracy theory I never heard of.  That was good for some laffs.

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 04:56:48 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 31, 2013, 04:54:33 PM
Oh, I remember Cubans in Africa. I did a high school report on the proxy conflicts between East and West in Africa.

I even made the maps on posterboard. That was High Tech back in the day.

I wrote a few papers on Angola & Namibia in college.  The Angola ones may have had a slight pro-Savimbi tilt :ph34r:

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 02:52:04 PM

Season 1, Episode 22 of SNL:

Quote from: dps on February 01, 2013, 03:02:15 AM

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 02:52:04 PM

Season 1, Episode 22 of SNL:

Gee, how timely.

Quote from: dps on February 01, 2013, 03:02:15 AM

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 02:52:04 PM

Season 1, Episode 22 of SNL:

Gee, how timely.

Quote from: Phillip V on February 02, 2013, 08:17:35 PM
Mali gives President Hollande a triumphant hero's welcome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/world/africa/france-hollande-timbuktu-mali.html

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 06, 2013, 08:14:13 PM
As an aside Britain's sent in troops to help train the government forces.

Someone did a study a while ago of countries Britain's military intervened in. Turned out there were only 22 we hadn't. 21 now :lol:

Quote from: Caliga on February 07, 2013, 07:35:48 AM
The French seem to be doing a good job.  My hat's off to them.  :alberta:

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2013, 09:06:53 AM
Your big floppy crepe-shaped hat?

Quote from: mongers on January 30, 2013, 08:18:57 PMWhat justice was like under the jihadis in Mali

Issa Alzouma made a living from digging gravel for construction companies until they cut off his hand.

Arrested last December on suspicion of stealing a motorbike that he says was his anyway, he was brought before the Sharia court in Gao and sentenced to amputation.

Over the last two days, I've had something of a tour of the justice system the Mujao, which is Movements for Jihad and Unity, installed in Gao, Mali, during their nine months of rule. They took over what used to be the mayor's office and turned it into the  "justice" centre.

Two men, accused of homosexuality, who were supposed to be executed last Friday, showed me the room they were taken to be tried and beaten. On the floor I found a file with lists of names – these were the women who had been whipped for failing to wear the veil, and the men punished for smoking.

A large airless room in the back of the compound became the Sharia court. Here they and other prisoners were brought to sit in front of two or three Islamic judges who they call marabouts. They said that the judges were mainly Pakistanis and some Tunisians and the whole proceedings were overseen by the Moroccan jihadi in charge of the town, known as Abdel Karim. As the judges passed sentence, a crowd of jihadi supporters behind them watched. Some of the women were flogged right there in the court house. A black patch in front marks the place where cigarettes were ground into the sand and smokers whipped. A few yards away is the stadium where the residents of Gao once watched football and were now forced to come to watch amputations.

One of the most disturbing things I've learnt is that those condemned to these harsh punishments were all black Malians – Sonrai, Peul, Bamba, and Della, traditionally the slaves of the Tuareg. The jihadis were a mixture of Malian Arabs and Tuaregs as well as many foreign jihadis.

"They would never do this to one of their own," said Issa.
......

Quote

By David Lewis

GAO, Mali | Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:29pm EST

(Reuters) - Islamist insurgents launched a surprise raid in the heart of the Malian town of Gao on Sunday, battling French and local troops in a blow to efforts to secure Mali's recaptured north.

Local residents hid in their homes or crouched behind walls as the crackle of gunfire from running street battles resounded through the sandy streets and mud-brick houses of the ancient Niger River town, retaken from Islamist rebels last month by a French-led offensive.

French helicopters clattered overhead and fired on al Qaeda-allied rebels armed with AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades who had infiltrated the central market area and holed up in a police station, Malian and French officers said.

The fighting inside Gao was certain to raise fears that pockets of determined Islamists who have escaped the lightning four-week-old French intervention in Mali will strike back with guerrilla attacks and suicide bombings.

After driving the bulk of the insurgents from major northern towns such as Timbuktu and Gao, French forces are trying to search out their bases in the remote and rugged Adrar des Ifoghas mountains, far up in the northeast.

But with Mali's weak army unable to secure recaptured zones, and the deployment of a larger African security force slowed by delays and kit shortages, vast areas to the rear of the French forward lines now look vulnerable to guerrilla activity.

"They infiltrated the town via the river. We think there were about 10 of them. They were identified by the population and they went into the police station," said General Bernard Barrera, commander of French ground operations in Mali.

He told reporters in Gao that French helicopters had intervened to help Malian troops pinned down by the rebels, who threw grenades from rooftops.

Malian gendarme Colonel Saliou Maiga told Reuters the insurgents intended to carry out suicide attacks in the town.

SUICIDE BOMBERS

No casualty toll was immediately available. But a Reuters reporter in Gao saw one body crumpled over a motorcycle. Malian soldiers said some of the raiders may have come on motorbikes.

The gunfire in Gao erupted hours after French and Malian forces reinforced a checkpoint on the northern outskirts that had been attacked for the second time in two days by a suicide bomber.

Abdoul Abdoulaye Sidibe, a Malian parliamentarian from Gao, said the rebel infiltrators were from the MUJWA group that had held the town until French forces liberated it late last month.

MUJWA is a splinter faction of al Qaeda's North African wing AQIM which, in loose alliance with the home-grown Malian Islamist group Ansar Dine, held Mali's main northern urban areas for 10 months until the French offensive drove them out.

Late on Saturday, an army checkpoint in Gao's northern outskirts came under attack by a group of Islamist rebels who fired from a road and bridge that lead north through the desert scrub by the Niger River to Bourem, 80 km (50 miles) away.

"Our soldiers came under heavy gunfire from jihadists from the bridge ... At the same time, another one flanked round and jumped over the wall. He was able to set off his suicide belt," Malian Captain Sidiki Diarra told reporters.

The bomber died and one Malian soldier was lightly wounded, he added. In Friday's motorbike suicide bomber attack, a Malian soldier was also injured.

Diarra described Saturday's bomber as a bearded Arab.

Since Gao and the UNESCO World Heritage city of Timbuktu were retaken last month, several Malian soldiers have been killed in landmine explosions on a main road leading north.

French and Malian officers say pockets of rebels are still in the bush and desert between major towns and pose a threat of hit-and-run guerrilla raids and bombings.

"We are in a dangerous zone... we can't be everywhere," a French officer told reporters, asking not to be named.

One local resident reported seeing a group of 10 armed Islamist fighters at Batel, just 10 km (6 miles) from Gao.

OPERATIONS IN NORTHEAST

The French, who have around 4,000 troops in Mali, are now focusing their offensive operations several hundred kilometers (miles) north of Gao in a hunt for the Islamist insurgents.

On Friday, French special forces paratroopers seized the airstrip and town of Tessalit, near the Algerian border.

From here, the French, aided by around 1,000 Chadian troops in the northeast Kidal region, are expected to conduct combat patrols into the Adrar des Ifoghas mountains.

The remaining Islamists are believed to have hideouts and supply depots in a rugged, sun-blasted range of rocky gullies and caves, and are also thought to be holding at least seven French hostages previously seized in the Sahel.

The U.S. and European governments back the French-led operation as a defense against Islamist jihadists threatening wider attacks, but rule out sending their own combat troops.

To accompany the military offensive, France and its allies are urging Mali authorities to open a national reconciliation dialogue that addresses the pro-autonomy grievances of northern communities like the Tuaregs, and to hold democratic elections.

Interim President Dioncounda Traore, appointed after a military coup last year that plunged the West African state into chaos and led to the Islamist occupation of the north, has said he intends to hold elections by July 31.

But he faces splits within the divided Malian army, where rival units are still at loggerheads.

(Additional reporting by Tiemoko Diallo and Adama Diarra in Bamako; Writing by Joe Bavier and Pascal Fletcher; Editing by Kevin Liffey)

QuoteThe new drone base, located for now in the capital, Niamey, is an indication of the priority Africa has become in American antiterrorism efforts. The United States military has a limited presence in Africa, with only one permanent base, in Djibouti, more than 3,000 miles from Mali, where insurgents had taken over half the country until repelled by a French-led force.

In a letter to Congress, Mr. Obama said about 40 United States military service members arrived in Niger on Wednesday, bringing the total number of those deployed in the country to about 100 people. A military official said the troops were largely Air Force logistics specialists, intelligence analysts and security officers.

Mr. Obama said the troops, who are armed for self-protection, would support the French-led operation that last month drove the Qaeda and affiliated fighters out of a desert refuge the size of Texas in neighboring Mali.

Niger, one of the poorest countries in the world, signed a status-of-forces agreement last month with the United States that has cleared the way for greater American military involvement in the country and has provided legal protection to American troops there.
...
Mr. Benson did not say how many aircraft or troops would ultimately be deployed, but other American officials have said the base could eventually have as many as 300 United States military service members and contractors.

For now, American officials said, Predator drones will be unarmed and will fly only on surveillance missions, although they have not ruled out conducting missile strikes at some point if the threat worsens.

American officials would like to move the aircraft eventually to Agadez, a city in northern Niger that is closer to parts of northern Mali where cells of Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb and other militant groups are operating. Gen. Carter F. Ham, the leader of the Pentagon's Africa Command, visited the base last month as part of discussions with Niger's leaders on closer counterterrorism cooperation.

The new drone base will join a constellation of small airstrips in recent years on the continent, including one in Ethiopia, for surveillance missions flown by drones or turboprop planes designed to look like civilian aircraft.

A handful of unarmed Predator drones will fill a desperate need for more detailed information on regional threats, including the militants in Mali and the unabated flow of fighters and weapons from Libya. General Ham and intelligence analysts have complained that such information has been sorely lacking.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F02%2F23%2Fworld%2Fafrica%2F23drones_span%2F23drones_span-popup.jpg&hash=bb40903c105eed5b7bb80fc6e496513fe02862d7)

Quote from: Phillip V on February 23, 2013, 12:52:18 AM


'Opening a new front in the drone wars

QuoteMalian authorities will give French President Francois Hollande another camel after the one they gave him in thanks for helping repel Islamist rebels was killed and eaten by the family he left it with in Timbuktu, an official in Mali said.

A local government official in northern Mali said on Tuesday a replacement would be sent to France.

"As soon as we heard of this, we quickly replaced it with a bigger and better-looking camel," said the official, who asked not to be named because he was not authorized to speak to the media.

"The new camel will be sent to Paris. We are ashamed of what happened to the camel. It was a present that did not deserve this fate."
Hollande was presented with the camel when he visited Mali in February several weeks after dispatching French troops to the former colony to help combat al Qaeda-linked fighters moving south from a base in the north of the country.

The president joked at the time about using the camel to get around traffic-jammed Paris. But he chose in the end to leave it with a family in the town on the edge of the Sahara desert.

Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian was tasked with giving Hollande regular updates on the camel's status and had to inform him of its death last week, French media said.

"The news came in from soldiers on the ground," said a French government official.

French leaders have received many gifts of exotic or wild animals from Africa and further afield over the years.

Last week, a robber chainsawed a tusk off the skeleton of an elephant offered to Louis XIV by a Portuguese king in 1668. Police caught the robber as he fled, tusk under his arm.

Quote from: Neil on February 23, 2013, 09:07:12 AM
The French made some very good dreadnoughts.  Well, their first couple of attempts were shit, but they got the hang of it later on.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.navweaps.com%2FWeapons%2FWNFR_15-45_m1935_Richelieu_pic.jpg&hash=0574967f0f0c9202794fdb0eff457129cba0ccd6)

Quote from: Caliga on April 10, 2013, 08:26:01 AM
camel  :licklips:

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 05:49:59 PM

Quote from: derspiess on January 31, 2013, 04:56:48 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on January 31, 2013, 04:54:33 PM
Oh, I remember Cubans in Africa. I did a high school report on the proxy conflicts between East and West in Africa.

I even made the maps on posterboard. That was High Tech back in the day.

I wrote a few papers on Angola & Namibia in college.  The Angola ones may have had a slight pro-Savimbi tilt :ph34r:

And rightfully so.
Had the South African ambassador to the US visit our high school in 1987.  While everyone was giving him shit about apartheid, I gave him kudos in the auditorium on South African foreign policy regarding silly neighbors.  Saw my teacher do a double-facepalm.

Quote from: Viking on April 10, 2013, 08:30:55 AM
hmmm.. your judging the entire class by it's paper stats? Fire Base Jean Bart (II) of Casablanca is not an actual battle performance to write home about.. not to mention being on the wrong side.

Quote from: viper37 on April 10, 2013, 12:26:59 PM
you like the toes?

Quote from: Viking on April 10, 2013, 08:30:55 AM

Quote from: Neil on February 23, 2013, 09:07:12 AM
The French made some very good dreadnoughts.  Well, their first couple of attempts were shit, but they got the hang of it later on.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.navweaps.com%2FWeapons%2FWNFR_15-45_m1935_Richelieu_pic.jpg&hash=0574967f0f0c9202794fdb0eff457129cba0ccd6)

hmmm.. your judging the entire class by it's paper stats? Fire Base Jean Bart (II) of Casablanca is not an actual battle performance to write home about.. not to mention being on the wrong side.

QuoteHow Timbuktu's manuscripts were saved from jihadists
By Sudarsan Raghavan, Published: May 26
washingtonpost.com

In TIMBUKTU, MALI — It was 7 o'clock on a hot night in August, and Hassine Traore was nervous. Behind him were 10 donkeys, each strapped with two large rice bags filled with ancient manuscripts. The bags were covered in plastic to shield them from a light rain.

Radical Islamists had entered Timbuktu four months earlier, and they had set about destroying everything they deemed a sin.

They had demolished the tombs of Sufi saints. They had beaten up women for not covering their faces and flogged men for smoking or drinking. They most certainly would have burned the manuscripts — nearly 300,000 pages on a variety of subjects, including the teachings of Islam, law, medicine, mathematics and astronomy — housed in public and private libraries across the city.

The scholarly documents depicted Islam as a historically moderate and intellectual religion and were considered cultural treasures by Western institutions — reasons enough for the ultraconservative jihadists to destroy them.

But a secret operation had been set in motion within weeks of the jihadist takeover. It included donkeys, safe houses and smugglers, all deployed to protect the manuscripts by sneaking them out of town.

This is the story of how nearly all the documents were saved, based on interviews with an unlikely cast of characters who detailed their roles for the first time. They included Traore, a 30-year-old part-time janitor, and his grandfather, a guard.

"We knew that if we attracted any attention, the Islamists would arrest us," Traore recalled.

The New York-based Ford Foundation, the German and Dutch governments, and an Islamic center in Dubai provided most of the funds for the operation, which cost about $1 million.

"We took a big risk to save our heritage," said Abdel Kader Haidara, a prominent preservationist who once loaned 16th- and 18th-century manuscripts from his family's private collection to the Library of Congress. "This is not only the city's heritage, it is the heritage of all humanity."

The jihadists who took control of Timbuktu in April 2012 quickly chose as their headquarters the Ahmed Baba Institute, a state-run library and research center named after a 17th-century Timbuktu scholar. The center, painted in tan and pink hues, was built in 2009 to replace an older library with the same name in another part of the city.

The militants kicked out the employees and scrawled the name of their organization on a wall in Arabic: "Ansar al-Dine," or "Defenders of the Faith."

The jihadists, along with fighters from al-Qaeda's affiliate in West and North Africa, had piggybacked on a Tuareg separatist rebellion that had taken advantage of a military coup in March to overrun the north. Within weeks, the radicals pushed out the Tuareg rebels and asserted control over Timbuktu and other cities in the north.

In the 15th and 16th centuries, Timbuktu was a center of Islamic culture under several African empires. It had a university and many Islamic schools that attracted scholars and students from Cairo, Baghdad and other corners of the Middle East. Some brought along sacred Muslim texts. Others produced several hundred thousand manuscripts, handwritten in Arabic and African languages, sometimes in gold lettering.

The jihadists initially appeared not to know the value of the manuscripts kept in Timbuktu — or didn't seem to care. But after local television reports about the manuscripts, some Islamists, clutching guns, came by the old Ahmed Baba Institute and asked the employees whether any documents were inside.

"We told them the center was empty and that all the manuscripts had been transferred to the new center," said Abba al-Hadi, the 72-year-old guard and Traore's grandfather, who had the keys to the place.

But in reality, most of the institute's manuscripts, about 24,500 pages, were inside. The workers knew that it was only a matter of time before the militants would force their way in.

"The Islamists were destroying everything. We knew that once they heard of the manuscripts' importance to the world, they would destroy them," said Alkamiss Cisse, who worked in the restoration department of the institute.

'We had to move fast'

The director of the Ahmed Baba Institute was worried. As a government official, Abdoulkadri Maiga knew that the jihadists would target him. So he fled to Bamako, the capital. By June, his employees in Timbuktu had informed him of the threat to the manuscripts.

Even before they contacted him, Maiga had begun to meet with private collectors from Timbuktu, including Haidara, who also had fled to Bamako to find a way to save the manuscripts. "We didn't know if the Islamists one day would take the manuscripts hostage," Maiga recalled. "We had to move fast."

There was another concern: The rainy season was nearing, and it was time for annual repairs to the roof of the old center to protect the manuscripts from dampness. That was no longer possible because it could draw the attention of the jihadists.

After hearing from his employees, Maiga sent a reconnaissance mission to Timbuktu. The group returned to Bamako with the computer hard drive containing the institute's records of the manuscripts.

In late July, Maiga sent a second mission to Timbuktu. The goal was to take out some of the manuscripts, to test whether it was possible to evade the Islamists.

During the day, members of the team stayed with relatives and friends and never stepped out. At night, they worked in the old center, putting as many manuscripts as they could into two metal trunks. Such boxes were widely used by people to pack clothes and would not attract attention. The team placed the two trunks in a truck and drove about 600 miles to Bamako without incident.

But tens of thousands of pages still needed to be sneaked out. It could take weeks or months if they took them one or two boxes at a time, increasing the chances of being caught. Maiga needed a different solution, and so he turned to Haidara, the collector, for help.

'Manuscripts were in danger'

From the moment the Islamists seized Timbuktu, Haidara, too, had been seeking a way to save the manuscripts.

His family's collection was housed in a private library, Mamma Haidara, named after his father. It was one of the city's largest private libraries, its collection accumulated over the past 400 years by his ancestors. The oldest document was a 10th-century manuscript on Islamic law.

This was not the first time that his family and other private collectors had to find a way to protect their manuscripts. Whenever foreigners invaded Timbuktu, such as the Moroccans in the 16th century or the French colonialists in the 19th century, people hid the manuscripts in caves and secret rooms or transferred them out of the city.

For more than 60 years under French rule, Haidara's family had buried their manuscripts in deep pits and in metal trunks, fearing that the documents would be seized and sent to Europe. It wasn't until 1960, when Mali became independent again, that his family could freely show them again.

Now, it was time to hide the manuscripts once more. Haidara bought several hundred metal trunks, which he and his employees packed with manuscripts and began to secretly transfer at night. By May, his team had moved tens of thousands of pages of manuscripts from the libraries to safe houses elsewhere in Timbuktu.

"We locked them inside rooms, and then we fled to Bamako," he said.

Haidara alone owned an estimated 45,000 pages of manuscripts, so he traveled to Dubai to seek funding from an Islamic center there. He first approached the Dutch and German governments and later flew to Lagos, Nigeria, to meet with the Ford Foundation. The Dutch government gave $425,000, while the Ford Foundation donated $236,000. The German Embassy in Mali and the Dubai center did not respond to e-mails for comment.

"It was clear that manuscripts were in danger," Joseph Gitari, a senior Ford Foundation employee in Lagos, said in a telephone interview. "The narrative of the manuscripts, their focus on science, culture, law, contradicted the ideological position of the groups who took over northern Mali."

By August, Haidara said, he had secured some of the necessary funds to pay for fuel and transportation. To pay the smugglers, he borrowed money or promised to pay later. The manuscripts of the old Ahmed Baba Institute, the most prominent of the repositories, would be the first to leave Timbuktu.

'An Indiana Jones moment'

It was the first stage of that mission that brought Traore and his donkey caravan to the old-city streets of Timbuktu on that August night. His grandfather had helped him load the donkeys, but he stayed behind as Traore and three other men set out with the manuscripts.

The rain, in the end, helped them. The jihadists were not at their checkpoints, preferring to stay indoors.

The caravan arrived at a safe house. Traore gave the cargo to a trader working for Haidara. Over the next two weeks, the donkey caravans would make the trip six more times until all the manuscripts were out of the center, Traore recalled.

The documents were placed in metal trunks hidden under cargo on several trucks. Within days, the manuscripts reached Bamako.

Over the next few months, Haidara's people took out the rest of the manuscripts from the safe houses. Some were carried on donkey carts. Others were carried out on canoes on the Niger River, before reaching a safe area where they could be placed on trucks.

Most of the trunks were taken out in batches of three to five, until all finally reached Bamako safely. The evacuation was still ongoing in late January as French troops closed in on Timbuktu.

"The operation continues," wrote Gitari to his colleagues in New York in an e-mail. "An Indiana Jones moment in real life! Touch wood."

In the end, a total of 2,453 trunks were evacuated — containing about 278,000 pages of manuscripts, Haidara said.

In Bamako, the manuscripts are being kept in a safe place. Neither Maiga nor Haidara would disclose the location.

But Haidara and his allies could do nothing about the 16,000 pages of manuscripts in the new Ahmed Baba center, where the jihadists lived. There, Maiga's worst fears came true. Days before French forces entered Timbuktu, the fleeing jihadists burned about 4,000 pages of manuscripts that they found in the restoration room.

But the jihadists never headed to the basement, where about 12,000 pages were stacked on metal shelves.

"They didn't know the documents were down below," said Abdoulaye Cisse, the institute's interim director. "How else can you explain why they weren't burned?"

Quote from: Ed Anger on May 27, 2013, 08:35:50 AM
Islamics fear basements. There be monsters down there.