France Invades Mali

[PDH]

Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

I can envision scenarios where they would've stayed put.

I really can't.  The French might have fucked things up playing with their own rules, but they would have played.

[Sheilbh]

Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

I can envision scenarios where they would've stayed put.

Then you're mad.

It's worth saying that de Gaulle's statement withdrawing France also called for new negotiations between the US and France to discuss their Western alliance. Those took place and the method of French re-integration into a single command structure in the event of a war was agreed. And the French commitment to Germany remained exactly the same, they didn't remove a single troop.

The issues for de Gaulle were primarily integrated pre-delegation, defence planning and the presence of foreign troops on French soil under foreign command.

Edit: It goes without saying that those are precisely the sort of issues a proud country like the US would probably object to

[Barrister]

Again this ignores the force de frappe which is a complementary and key part of French independent policy. However you know full well that if Germany were invaded, despite not being full members of NATO France would have fully joined the war as if she were - Article 5 or not.

I can envision scenarios where they would've stayed put.

I really can't.  The French might have fucked things up playing with their own rules, but they would have played.

Meh - I can see a scenario where the French stay out,.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_2000

[PDH]

Americans distrust France because the French are too much like Americans.

[derspiess]

Then you're mad.

Okay.

Edit: It goes without saying that those are precisely the sort of issues a proud country like the US would probably object to

Apples to oranges there, my friend.

[Admiral Yi]

Does the lack of war not matter?

You really want to go down that road Shelf?  Of course we're talking about a hypothetical.  The Warsaw Pact did in fact not invade Western Europe.  Therefore everything is hunky dory?

[garbon]

Americans distrust France because the French are too much like Americans.

Maybe. Perhaps it is hard to buy an air of superiority from a nation that is so clearly not superior.

[Sheilbh]

You really want to go down that road Shelf?  Of course we're talking about a hypothetical.  The Warsaw Pact did in fact not invade Western Europe.  Therefore everything is hunky dory?

I wasn't talking about a hypothetical. I'm asking what damage de Gaulle's withdrawal from the NATO command structure actually did.

There was very detailed agreements to reintegrate France within a single command structure in the event of hostilities. The French didn't withdraw a single troop from their zone of Germany. They also developed an independent nuclear force that, by necessity, was based on a different policy than that of the US and one that I think was actually an extra useful deterrent on the Russians.

You said it was the opposite of pulling their weight. So how was it the opposite of pulling their weight. I think, like Gaullists, you're placing too much emphasis on the symbolic here.

Maybe. Perhaps it is hard to buy an air of superiority from a nation that is so clearly not superior.

Exactly

[Tamas]

Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Being anti-french has a long and glorious history in this country.

Canada is like preserving and nurturing a piece of France within her borders. 

[derspiess]

Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Being anti-french has a long and glorious history in this country.

Canada is like preserving and nurturing a piece of France within her borders. 

And?

[Razgovory]

What was the burden of subordinating yourself to NATO command?

You gonna answer that one?

[garbon]

Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Being anti-french has a long and glorious history in this country.

Canada is like preserving and nurturing a piece of France within her borders. 

And?

I think he's saying that if you can't act as Hungary did to Jews, you can't say you have a history of being against something.

[Barrister]

Hey Derspeiss, what's the deal with the anti-French thing?

Goes back to them skeeving in on derspiess' fur trade.

I'm telling you people, it's that piece of shit de Gaulle's fault.  Back in the day Amerikkka loved France.  Remember how they helped us push Britain's shit in during the Revolution?  We used to be pretty damn grateful for that.

Being anti-french has a long and glorious history in this country.

Canada is like preserving and nurturing a piece of France within her borders. 

Which explains my point.  Note I did not capitalize "french".

How typically central european.  You can be against a people and language, yet still permit them to exist.


Edit: dammit Garbon for going in the exact same direction as I did, but getting his post in first.

[derspiess]

What was the burden of subordinating yourself to NATO command?

You gonna answer that one?

It's pretty obvious, Raz.  If you don't subordinate yourself to NATO command, you have a lot more freedom in how you run your armed forces.

[garbon]

Edit: dammit Garbon for going in the exact same direction as I did, but getting his post in first.