285 on board. :( Totally not shot down by overeager Russians, I am sure.
Aw, shit. This will be interesting.
I know that we're all hoping the Russians did it, but Ukrainian air defenses don't have a good track record against passenger airplanes either.
ahh.. so thats where it went...
My first thought was why would they plan a flight path right over what is essentially a war zone like that?
The Malaysian's dont have very much luck nowadays.
I'd bet some money that all three groups (Ukraine, Ukrainian Rebels, Russia) deny it was them and point the figure at the opposition. My suspicion is the most likely culprit are the rebels who have been shooting down Ukrainian planes with Russian provided missiles, and who would probably easily fuck up and shoot down a passenger jet. Of course it's not unlikely the Ukrainian or Russian military did it, but I think the rebels are a tad more incompetent.
It was shot down at 10000 meters, so either a SAM (I guess it must be Ukraine in that case) or a fighter jet did it (both sides possible). We will probably never know.
Hmm, I guess they're saying at its elevation the portable missiles the rebels have probably could not down a plane. Would need a longer range missile, probably radar guided, or a fighter jet. That makes it more likely it's the Ukrainian or Russian military. I can't imagine it was the Ukrainians simply because I'm not sure why/what planes they'd be shooting down. The only planes that would be in the area that they'd be unhappy about might be Russian planes (I don't believe the rebels have an air force), and the Ukrainians wouldn't deliberately shoot down a Russian plane for fear of reprisal.
That makes it seem like it would have to be the Russians.
Of course there's also no evidence it was shot down, it may have simply crashed and everyone is running with the story from a shady Ukrainian Interior Minister that it was shot down.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 17, 2014, 11:17:51 AM
I'd bet some money that all three groups (Ukraine, Ukrainian Rebels, Russia) deny it was them and point the figure at the opposition. My suspicion is the most likely culprit are the rebels who have been shooting down Ukrainian planes with Russian provided missiles, and who would probably easily fuck up and shoot down a passenger jet. Of course it's not unlikely the Ukrainian or Russian military did it, but I think the rebels are a tad more incompetent.
That sounds like by far the likeliest explanation. I assume the rebels don't have the means to identify aircraft like even the most incompetent of armies do.
It would definitely be odd if it was the Ukrainian military; since the flight had to have crossed Ukraine from the West and traveled the length of the country I'd expect Ukrainian air traffic control and air defense would easily have the flight identified as a valid civilian flight. It's strange they'd decide to just start shooting at it right as it gets close to Russia.
If it was separatists, based on what I'm hearing about the missile system, it would almost have to be either current or former Russian military dressed as separatists. The missile system involved isn't known to be used by the separatists, and if it is most likely it's under Russian supervision/control.
Apparently the rebels seized some BUK anti-air missiles a few weeks ago.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/ (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/)
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 11:05:48 AM
My first thought was why would they plan a flight path right over what is essentially a war zone like that?
Yeah, mine too.
Given the two previous shoot-downs over the last 2-3 days, looks odds on to be trigger happy rebels with their newly 'acquired' sophisticated SAMs.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 17, 2014, 11:47:36 AM
It would definitely be odd if it was the Ukrainian military; since the flight had to have crossed Ukraine from the West and traveled the length of the country I'd expect Ukrainian air traffic control and air defense would easily have the flight identified as a valid civilian flight. It's strange they'd decide to just start shooting at it right as it gets close to Russia.
If it was separatists, based on what I'm hearing about the missile system, it would almost have to be either current or former Russian military dressed as separatists. The missile system involved isn't known to be used by the separatists, and if it is most likely it's under Russian supervision/control.
The news is saying that Russia has been supplying the Ukrainian Rebels with more sophisticated weapons against aircraft, including SA11s, or Book, missile systems. The Rebels shot down a Ukrainian transport aircraft earlier but no idea if it was at low altitude with shoulder fired weapons. Rebels have been cheering about shoot downs on social media.
The entire Ukrainian adventure is an issue of Russian pride and Putin egoism; these regular Russian army volunteers rebels have been getting first echelon stuff since the beginning, let alone what they've managed to score from the Ukrainians.
Fucking hell :(
These days I do look at the flight paths of international flights I take; mostly to avoid anything getting too close to North Korea, but it seems like there are other places worth adding to the list.
http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysian-plane-crash-russia-border-2014-7
There are some pics. None appear to be grisly, but the last one does show a few bodies.
I'm sure the separatists were all giddy to get to the scene to see what they shot down and then fairly quickly had their oh shit moment.
Always sad to see people go out in a completely random act of violence. It is much harder to accept this than a technical problem leading to a crash.
My take:
This was a rebel fuck-up. They has some new SA-11s, but lacked air search radar or anything else useful for target identification. Boris spotted de plane, thought it looked like a Uke transport, and Ivan squirted off a missile in its general direction with the seeker active on launch. They joyfully brag on VKonakte (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fvk.com%2Fwall-57424472_7256) while bounding over to the crash site, only to drop their vodka and hurredly delete the post when they realize they actually bagged a 777.
Wow.
Seperatists are apparently very busy deleting earlier social media posts in which they were announcing a) to have long range AA Missiles and b) downing a large plane minutes before the crash became public. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 17, 2014, 01:20:38 PM
Seperatists are apparently very busy deleting earlier social media posts in which they were announcing a) to have long range AA Missiles and b) downing a large plane minutes before the crash became public. :rolleyes:
That ought to work ... :hmm:
A quick scan of the "mainstream" Russian media appears to be setting up the Ukrainian military. Surprise surprise.
Quote from: Malthus on July 17, 2014, 01:23:05 PM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 17, 2014, 01:20:38 PM
Seperatists are apparently very busy deleting earlier social media posts in which they were announcing a) to have long range AA Missiles and b) downing a large plane minutes before the crash became public. :rolleyes:
That ought to work ... :hmm:
Maybe the IRS can help them.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2014, 12:22:41 PM
The entire Ukrainian adventure is an issue of Russian pride and Putin egoism; these regular Russian army volunteers rebels have been getting first echelon stuff since the beginning, let alone what they've managed to score from the Ukrainians.
Yeah really, it's almost comical. Russia knows that we know, and we know they know we know who is actually orchestrating this whole "revolt". ;)
One of the early Russian news stories on the event mentions the separatist militias saying that a Ukrainian fighter shot it down, then they shot down the fighter and claimed to have captured the Ukrainian pilot. :lol:
http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/263331
Cossack fuckers triggered the stop loss on my American stock, too. <_<
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 17, 2014, 01:36:08 PM
One of the early Russian news stories on the event mentions the separatist militias saying that a Ukrainian fighter shot it down, then they shot down the fighter and claimed to have captured the Ukrainian pilot. :lol:
http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/263331
That stuff will only work in Russia and among those who want to believe. The rest of them will know better and just snicker but say nothing esle risk having Putin's IRS come down on them. :ph34r:
Malaysian Airlines seem to have some difficulty keeping their planes airborne these days. :hmm:
And fuck those astroturf rebels, hope the Ukrainians kill them all.
RT is claiming that Putin's presidential plane may have been the target :rolleyes:.
link (http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/)
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 17, 2014, 02:26:59 PM
RT is claiming that Putin's presidential plane may have been the target :rolleyes:.
link (http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/)
Let me guess - the rocket bounced off Putin's mighty testicles, and the ricochet took out a Malaysian plane.
Quote from: Malthus on July 17, 2014, 02:31:05 PM
Let me guess - the rocket bounced off Tsar Putin's mighty testicles, and the ricochet took out a Malaysian plane.
Corrected. :)
Quote from: Caliga on July 17, 2014, 02:32:32 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 17, 2014, 02:31:05 PM
Let me guess - the rocket bounced off Tsar Putin's mighty testicles, and the ricochet took out a Malaysian plane.
Corrected. :)
Correction sustained. :D
I'm concerned that this incident will make it harder for the Tsar to regain his lost Ukrainian province, though. :(
The bevy of accurate information from anything ending in .ru or .ua is going to be hilarious.
Somebody is reporting 23 US citizens were on board.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2014, 02:48:39 PM
The bevy of accurate information from anything ending in .ru or .ua is going to be hilarious.
Somebody is reporting 23 US citizens were on board.
Mostly Dutch people apparantly. 154 at least.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2014, 02:48:39 PM
The bevy of accurate information from anything ending in .ru or .ua is going to be hilarious.
Somebody is reporting 23 US citizens were on board.
Russian radio reported that the black box is on its way to Moscow for analysis. So we'll get to the bottom of this, don't worry.
Quote from: miozozny on July 17, 2014, 04:00:11 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2014, 02:48:39 PM
The bevy of accurate information from anything ending in .ru or .ua is going to be hilarious.
Somebody is reporting 23 US citizens were on board.
Mostly Dutch people apparantly. 154 at least.
BREAKING: 154 Dutch, 27 Australian, 23 Malaysian, 11 Indonesian, 6 UK, 4 German, 4 Belgium, 1 Canadian among death of #MH17
At least.
Putin claims that it's Ukraine's fault simply because it was over Ukrainian airspace. Nice logic.
Quote from: miozozny on July 17, 2014, 04:00:11 PM
Mostly Dutch people apparantly. 154 at least.
Kinda went without saying, what with departing Amsterdam and it's summer vacation time.
Quote from: Liep on July 17, 2014, 04:09:02 PM
Putin claims that it's Ukraine's fault simply because it was over Ukrainian airspace. Nice logic.
Well, Ukraine did fail to shoot down the missile and protect the aircraft. He's got a point there.
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 04:03:41 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2014, 02:48:39 PM
The bevy of accurate information from anything ending in .ru or .ua is going to be hilarious.
Somebody is reporting 23 US citizens were on board.
Russian radio reported that the black box is on its way to Moscow for analysis. So we'll get to the bottom of this, don't worry.
The black box will have signed a confession by the end of the week.
Quote from: Liep on July 17, 2014, 04:07:48 PM
BREAKING: 154 Dutch, 27 Australian, 23 Malaysian, 11 Indonesian, 6 UK, 4 German, 4 Belgium, 1 Canadian among death of #MH17
At least.
:(
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 04:25:41 PM
Quote from: Liep on July 17, 2014, 04:09:02 PM
Putin claims that it's Ukraine's fault simply because it was over Ukrainian airspace. Nice logic.
Well, Ukraine did fail to shoot down the missile and protect the aircraft. He's got a point there.
Your boy Johnny Hero's already bitching about Obama not doing the right thing in failing to arm the Ukrainians. Send 'em Patriot missile batteries, not sanctions, dammit!
OBAMA LIED DUTCHMEN DIED
Quote from: Liep on July 17, 2014, 04:09:02 PM
Putin claims that it's Ukraine's fault simply because it was over Ukrainian airspace. Nice logic.
Heh, he's basically admitting that it was the rebels playing around with a BUK they got from Papa Putin who shot the plane down.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2014, 04:33:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 04:25:41 PM
Quote from: Liep on July 17, 2014, 04:09:02 PM
Putin claims that it's Ukraine's fault simply because it was over Ukrainian airspace. Nice logic.
Well, Ukraine did fail to shoot down the missile and protect the aircraft. He's got a point there.
Your boy Johnny Hero's already bitching about Obama not doing the right thing in failing to arm the Ukrainians. Send 'em Patriot missile batteries, not sanctions, dammit!
OBAMA LIED DUTCHMEN DIED
Your boy Harry Reid is probably blaming it on the Tea Party.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html
What exactly do you want him to say? :huh:
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 05:10:08 PM
What exactly do you want him to say? :huh:
I don't really care what he says but article seems fairly clear.
I would say it was unfortunate wording to say "it looks like it may be a terrible tragedy."
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 05:02:27 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html
:lmfao: Seriously? You link to, of all places, the Daily Fail? The British newspaper that is
so stupid that even the other
British newspapers notice?
Impression of Spicy's intelligence: -4
So what's the current state of knowledge about what civilian airliners were doing flying over this region/war zone?
I've seen that there were two existing advisory notices posted to airlines about what they should do about the airspace/region. To the layman the wording is opaque and has plenty of wriggle room.
Was it just left to airlines to 'balance' passenger safety vs 'shareholder value' re fuel/turnaround cost ?
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 05:10:08 PM
What exactly do you want him to say? :huh:
"I resign"
Anything else will never be acceptable.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 17, 2014, 05:59:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 05:10:08 PM
What exactly do you want him to say? :huh:
"I resign"
Anything else will never be acceptable.
I don't know. Do you think he's hoping for President Joe?
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 05:00:45 PM
Your boy Harry Reid is probably blaming it on the Tea Party.
Pfft, weak, derfetus.
It would be the Koch brothers.
Quote from: garbon on July 17, 2014, 05:19:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 05:10:08 PM
What exactly do you want him to say? :huh:
I don't really care what he says but article seems fairly clear.
I would say it was unfortunate wording to say "it looks like it may be a terrible tragedy."
That doesn't seem to be particular unfortunate. Particularity when very little is known. Perhaps Darrel Issa can investigate and find something for to justify the anger that will come when Talk Radio claims Obama botched the situation, or possibly acted out of malice to kill Americans who may or may not been on the plane.
Quote from: grumbler on July 17, 2014, 05:37:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 05:02:27 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html
:lmfao: Seriously? You link to, of all places, the Daily Fail? The British newspaper that is so stupid that even the other British newspapers notice?
Impression of Spicy's intelligence: -4
So what am I up to in your book? -144? :D
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 17, 2014, 05:59:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 05:10:08 PM
What exactly do you want him to say? :huh:
"I resign"
Anything else will never be acceptable.
I was 95% trolling. His remarks did come across as awkward though, and he's known to struggle with ad-libbing sometimes. I wasn't gonna post anything until Seedy posted about McCain. Sadly, he avoided the bait :(
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 06:43:05 PM
I wasn't gonna post anything until Seedy posted about McCain. Sadly, he avoided the bait :(
What bait, I heard Johnny Saigon on the radio.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 06:28:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 17, 2014, 05:19:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 05:10:08 PM
What exactly do you want him to say? :huh:
I don't really care what he says but article seems fairly clear.
I would say it was unfortunate wording to say "it looks like it may be a terrible tragedy."
That doesn't seem to be particular unfortunate. Particularity when very little is known. Perhaps Darrel Issa can investigate and find something for to justify the anger that will come when Talk Radio claims Obama botched the situation, or possibly acted out of malice to kill Americans who may or may not been on the plane.
I think it unequivocally is a terrible tragedy. When 200 or so folks are killed on a commercial airliner it is a tragedy - unless it turns out that it was 200 or so terrorists.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 17, 2014, 06:48:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 06:43:05 PM
I wasn't gonna post anything until Seedy posted about McCain. Sadly, he avoided the bait :(
What bait, I heard Johnny Saigon on the radio.
The Daily Fail bait.
Quote from: garbon on July 17, 2014, 06:54:53 PM
I think it unequivocally is a terrible tragedy. When 200 or so folks are killed on a commercial airliner it is a tragedy - unless it turns out that it was 200 or so terrorists.
Or Hobby Lobby owners :angry:
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 17, 2014, 06:54:53 PM
I think it unequivocally is a terrible tragedy. When 200 or so folks are killed on a commercial airliner it is a tragedy - unless it turns out that it was 200 or so terrorists.
Or Hobby Lobby owners :angry:
I mean I didn't know I needed to post an exhaustive list. <_<
Quote from: garbon on July 17, 2014, 06:59:13 PM
I mean I didn't know I needed to post an exhaustive list. <_<
Yeah, but we're all still reeling from that monumentally disastrous decision by the Five White Men*. You should have mentioned them before terrorists.
*credit to Harry Reid
Quote from: mongers on July 17, 2014, 05:38:09 PM
So what's the current state of knowledge about what civilian airliners were doing flying over this region/war zone?
I've seen that there were two existing advisory notices posted to airlines about what they should do about the airspace/region. To the layman the wording is opaque and has plenty of wriggle room.
Was it just left to airlines to 'balance' passenger safety vs 'shareholder value' re fuel/turnaround cost ?
I think Malaysia Airlines is majority owned by the government of Malaysia, if that would impact the "shareholder value" portion of the analysis at all.
On the Russian forum, there seem to be two main theories developing:
1) Ukrainians shot down the plane to create outrage against the rebels, and/or create pretext for US to intervene like it so desperately wants to.
2) Ukrainians are responsible for the crash, because by international law they're responsible for everything that happens on their territory. Since they don't recognize Donetsk Republic, the plane was shot down over Ukrainian territory, and Ukraine is responsible for everything that happens on Ukrainian territory.
Reading between the lines, it seems like it's clear even to zombified Russian brains that the pro-Russian rebels fired that missile.
There is a recording of conversations between rebels by Ukrainian KGB, as they go up to the crash site. It doesn't really leave much to interpretation. Of course, Russians are screaming "FAKE!".
I'm curious how Europe will react to this. After all, most of the dead of Western Europeans.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
I'm curious how Europe will react to this. After all, most of the dead of Western Europeans.
I'm sure it will be as conciliatory as possible.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
I'm curious how Europe will react to this. After all, most of the dead of Western Europeans.
I think normally there might be some outrage, but it will be largely muted by the lingering shock from learning that the US might spy on them.
Austrian news says that the "defense minister" of the rebels posted yesterday afternoon online that they just shot down an AN-26, with a photo of a smoke plume that looks similar to the one in first press reports.
It seems that this announcement has disappeared now.
I'm sure our Dear Leader will eventually get around to doing something once he runs out of fund raisers to attend, late night celebrity parties at the White House, and holes at the golf course. Eventually he will remember he has a day job, right?
So about a third of the passengers killed were on their way to an AIDS conference.
We lost at least one person on the plane too. :(
Quote from: garbon on July 17, 2014, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 17, 2014, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 17, 2014, 06:54:53 PM
I think it unequivocally is a terrible tragedy. When 200 or so folks are killed on a commercial airliner it is a tragedy - unless it turns out that it was 200 or so terrorists.
Or Hobby Lobby owners :angry:
I mean I didn't know I needed to post an exhaustive list. <_<
200 people who watch reality tv and don't clean up after their dogs.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
I'm curious how Europe will react to this. After all, most of the dead of Western Europeans.
What would be an appropriate response in your opinion?
This really can't be good for Malaysian airlines business. I know I don't ever fancy getting in a cursed plane.
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 17, 2014, 11:17:51 PM
I'm sure our Dear Leader will eventually get around to doing something once he runs out of fund raisers to attend, late night celebrity parties at the White House, and holes at the golf course. Eventually he will remember he has a day job, right?
What the FUCK has Obama got to do with any of this? I understand he is not only a Democrat, but to add insult to injury for you people, black as well, but really years after years of blaming everything but the colour of the sky on him by the Republicans is getting really old even for me.
This seems more and more like the Soviet Union under Andropov, what with shooting down planes taking an unwise shortcut.
No evidence yet, but if the black boxes go to Moscow for analysis, we'll have to wait for a long time to get the truth.
Le monde.fr has still the photo removed by the separatists from Twitter.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsxTYZrCYAIuviM.jpg)
It's too early too tell, but this keeps going from bad to worse...
NB: As in 1983, even if it were a shortcut, it is absolutely no excuse to shoot it down.
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 17, 2014, 11:17:51 PM
I'm sure our Dear Leader will eventually get around to doing something once he runs out of fund raisers to attend, late night celebrity parties at the White House, and holes at the golf course. Eventually he will remember he has a day job, right?
Out of interest, what should he be doing at this stage of the crisis? Strapping on a parachute and dropping into the Don Basin with a commando knife between his teeth?
Quote from: Warspite on July 18, 2014, 05:40:14 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 17, 2014, 11:17:51 PM
I'm sure our Dear Leader will eventually get around to doing something once he runs out of fund raisers to attend, late night celebrity parties at the White House, and holes at the golf course. Eventually he will remember he has a day job, right?
Out of interest, what should he be doing at this stage of the crisis? Strapping on a parachute and dropping into the Don Basin with a commando knife between his teeth?
If The Shrubbery were still in the White House, we'd have bombed Iraq within 24 hours of the airliner shoot-down..
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 18, 2014, 05:28:51 AM
No evidence yet, but if the black boxes go to Moscow for analysis, we'll have to wait for a long time to get the truth.
Is anything useful expected to be in the black boxes?
Wouldn't the black box just show that there was no technical issue before the aircraft was hit by a missle?
Quote
An Australian family has tragically been hit by both Malaysia Airlines tragedies, having now lost four members through flight MH370's disappearance and flight MH17 being shot down over Ukraine.
Irene and George Burrows, from Bileola, Queensland, were still mourning their son Rodney and his wife Mary after their plane vanished without a trace over the southern Indian Ocean in March, and will now have to grieve for their step-granddaughter Maree Rizk and her husband Albert who were aboard MH17.
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 03:39:49 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 17, 2014, 11:17:51 PM
I'm sure our Dear Leader will eventually get around to doing something once he runs out of fund raisers to attend, late night celebrity parties at the White House, and holes at the golf course. Eventually he will remember he has a day job, right?
What the FUCK has Obama got to do with any of this? I understand he is not only a Democrat, but to add insult to injury for you people, black as well, but really years after years of blaming everything but the colour of the sky on him by the Republicans is getting really old even for me.
Apparently nothing. Just as when anything else happens in the world. He has nothing to do and nothing to say.
Then again, given his abysmal track records, it is probably for the best that he has given up on the job.
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 18, 2014, 06:54:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 03:39:49 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 17, 2014, 11:17:51 PM
I'm sure our Dear Leader will eventually get around to doing something once he runs out of fund raisers to attend, late night celebrity parties at the White House, and holes at the golf course. Eventually he will remember he has a day job, right?
What the FUCK has Obama got to do with any of this? I understand he is not only a Democrat, but to add insult to injury for you people, black as well, but really years after years of blaming everything but the colour of the sky on him by the Republicans is getting really old even for me.
Apparently nothing. Just as when anything else happens in the world. He has nothing to do and nothing to say.
Then again, given his abysmal track records, it is probably for the best that he has given up on the job.
Even giving your assumption that he has had an abysmal track record. Nothing Suggests that McCain, Romney, Gingerich, Cain, Santorum or Bachman would have been anything other than total disasters in comparison.
Quote from: Viking on July 18, 2014, 06:58:04 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 18, 2014, 06:54:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 03:39:49 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 17, 2014, 11:17:51 PM
I'm sure our Dear Leader will eventually get around to doing something once he runs out of fund raisers to attend, late night celebrity parties at the White House, and holes at the golf course. Eventually he will remember he has a day job, right?
What the FUCK has Obama got to do with any of this? I understand he is not only a Democrat, but to add insult to injury for you people, black as well, but really years after years of blaming everything but the colour of the sky on him by the Republicans is getting really old even for me.
Apparently nothing. Just as when anything else happens in the world. He has nothing to do and nothing to say.
Then again, given his abysmal track records, it is probably for the best that he has given up on the job.
Even giving your assumption that he has had an abysmal track record. Nothing Suggests that McCain, Romney, Gingerich, Cain, Santorum or Bachman would have been anything other than total disasters in comparison.
As and this is the best that can be said about him "hey, it could be worse. Maybe."
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 18, 2014, 07:03:06 AM
Quote from: Viking on July 18, 2014, 06:58:04 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 18, 2014, 06:54:09 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 03:39:49 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 17, 2014, 11:17:51 PM
I'm sure our Dear Leader will eventually get around to doing something once he runs out of fund raisers to attend, late night celebrity parties at the White House, and holes at the golf course. Eventually he will remember he has a day job, right?
What the FUCK has Obama got to do with any of this? I understand he is not only a Democrat, but to add insult to injury for you people, black as well, but really years after years of blaming everything but the colour of the sky on him by the Republicans is getting really old even for me.
Apparently nothing. Just as when anything else happens in the world. He has nothing to do and nothing to say.
Then again, given his abysmal track records, it is probably for the best that he has given up on the job.
Even giving your assumption that he has had an abysmal track record. Nothing Suggests that McCain, Romney, Gingerich, Cain, Santorum or Bachman would have been anything other than total disasters in comparison.
As and this is the best that can be said about him "hey, it could be worse. Maybe."
I can't wait for your wails and tears when Hillary shitstomps whichever moron the Republicans nominate.
Quote from: Zanza on July 18, 2014, 06:02:24 AM
Wouldn't the black box just show that there was no technical issue before the aircraft was hit by a missle?
Just heard that question being asked to an axpert. He explained that the flight recorders store internal and external sounds, so you might hear an explosion. System failures and structural integrity of the plane can also be analyzed. A misslie hit allegedly leaves a rather unique fingerprint there.
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 03:39:49 AM
but to add insult to injury for you people, black as well,
:rolleyes:
Who sent the black boxes to Russia in the first place?
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 08:26:00 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 03:39:49 AM
but to add insult to injury for you people, black as well,
:rolleyes:
I thought it cute when Holder played the race card recently. I thought, you're right, that's the reason I dislike Obama.
Quote from: Berkut on July 18, 2014, 08:26:50 AM
Who sent the black boxes to Russia in the first place?
I believe it was the pro-Russian militants in Ukraine who sent them, since they had control over the area where the crash occurred and were pictured surveying the
ir damage.
I'm almost surprised they didn't hide or destroy the black box and claim they couldn't find it.
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 18, 2014, 06:54:09 AM
Apparently nothing. Just as when anything else happens in the world. He has nothing to do and nothing to say.
Isn't that refreshing. An American president who lets the world sort their shit without him.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2014, 08:42:42 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 18, 2014, 06:54:09 AM
Apparently nothing. Just as when anything else happens in the world. He has nothing to do and nothing to say.
Isn't that refreshing. An American president who lets the world sort their shit without him.
:lmfao:
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2014, 08:53:18 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 18, 2014, 08:42:42 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 18, 2014, 06:54:09 AM
Apparently nothing. Just as when anything else happens in the world. He has nothing to do and nothing to say.
Isn't that refreshing. An American president who lets the world sort their shit without him.
:lmfao:
Yes. By all means, world, proceed without us. We're tired and broke. Just don't come crying to us when "someone needs to do something".
Looks like flights are now avoiding Ukraine, though I'd still be nervous if my flight path skirted the eastern border with Russia.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.washingtonpost.com%2Fblogs%2Fwonkblog%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F07%2Fukraine.jpg&hash=da027920fd727fae656aa0947e0b9f5ddda34860)
Also I like the shaded oval around Ukraine, as if the relative lack of plane icons weren't enough clue to where it is.
It looks like they are avoiding Finland and Norway as well. I guess they just use Reindeer taxis to get around.
They seem to be avoid israel and syria too, and in iraq, they all seem to follow one narrow corridor.
Quote from: Valmy on July 18, 2014, 09:11:54 AM
It looks like they are avoiding Finland and Norway as well. I guess they just use Reindeer taxis to get around.
Re Airtravel in norway. If that is a snapshot on the hour there will be few if any aircraft airborn in norway, 5 minutes into the hour at least 20. The flights between Oslo, Trondheim, Stavanger, Bergen, Kristiansand and Aalesund all are 55 minutes or less. Usually the ones too and from Oslo take off on the hour every hour.
Quote from: Zanza on July 18, 2014, 06:02:24 AM
Wouldn't the black box just show that there was no technical issue before the aircraft was hit by a missle?
If it was sent to Moscow, we can expect it to produce a signed confession in a couple of days. ;)
Quote from: Viking on July 18, 2014, 09:24:38 AM
They seem to be avoid israel and syria too, and in iraq, they all seem to follow one narrow corridor.
In Iraq, there's not really much to fly to outside that corridor, at least as far a population centers go.
Quote from: Hansmeister on July 18, 2014, 06:54:09 AM
Apparently nothing. Just as when anything else happens in the world. He has nothing to do and nothing to say.
Then again, given his abysmal track records, it is probably for the best that he has given up on the job.
It wasn't an American plane and no Americans were killed. I can't really imagine what he has to say. This seems like a "Btw, we hate Obama, he's shiftless and feckless. Don't forget!"
Quote from: Zanza on July 18, 2014, 02:20:49 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
I'm curious how Europe will react to this. After all, most of the dead of Western Europeans.
What would be an appropriate response in your opinion?
A harder line against Russia, more sanctions.
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2014, 09:30:29 AM
Quote from: Zanza on July 18, 2014, 06:02:24 AM
Wouldn't the black box just show that there was no technical issue before the aircraft was hit by a missle?
If it was sent to Moscow, we can expect it to produce a signed confession in a couple of days. ;)
First recorded case of black boxes dying from Polonium-210.
How is this for chutzpah? Putin blames Ukraine because the plane went down in Ukrainian terrory - this, while he's arming and supporting the rebels who most likely shot it down, and whose goal is to dispute Ukrainian control over that same territory!
Quote"And without doubt the government of the territory on which it happened bears responsibility for this frightening tragedy," he said, adding that he had urged the Russian authorities to do everything possible to help with the investigation into the incident.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/putin-ukraine-malaysia_n_5597094.html
So I guess Hansmeister must REALLY hate Reagan.
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2014, 10:29:10 AM
How is this for chutzpah? Putin blames Ukraine because the plane went down in Ukrainian terrory - this, while he's arming and supporting the rebels who most likely shot it down, and whose goal is to dispute Ukrainian control over that same territory!
Quote"And without doubt the government of the territory on which it happened bears responsibility for this frightening tragedy," he said, adding that he had urged the Russian authorities to do everything possible to help with the investigation into the incident.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/putin-ukraine-malaysia_n_5597094.html
Using Russian peasant logic that probably makes sense.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 08:31:56 AM
I'm almost surprised they didn't hide or destroy the black box and claim they couldn't find it.
They are now "lost," and "no one has ever seen them."
There we go.
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2014, 10:29:10 AM
How is this for chutzpah? Putin blames Ukraine because the plane went down in Ukrainian terrory - this, while he's arming and supporting the rebels who most likely shot it down, and whose goal is to dispute Ukrainian control over that same territory!
Quote"And without doubt the government of the territory on which it happened bears responsibility for this frightening tragedy," he said, adding that he had urged the Russian authorities to do everything possible to help with the investigation into the incident.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/putin-ukraine-malaysia_n_5597094.html
Oh yeah, now the blame and obfuscation campaign begins on the part of Putin, no surprise. And he'll have a State news service to assist him. Is there much of a free/independent press in Russia anymore?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html
Quote16.22 Mr Churkin says that there should not be an investigation - because there is absolutely no blame to be placed on Russia.
He says many were trying to pre-judge the outcome of an investigation.
16.20 Russian ambassador Vitaly Churkin now speaking at the UN Security Council.
Warns of "trying to prejudge outcome" the MH17 investigation and questions why Ukraine's air traffic control routed the flight over a conflict zone.
As a side-note, I wish it were 16:22 here. This morning has dragged on and I'm ready to get my damned weekend started.
The entrance to the Dutch embassy in Kiev is covered in flowers placed by Ukrainians.
At the embassy in Moscow, people are leaving notes saying sorry and asking for forgiveness.
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 10:29:31 AM
So I guess Hansmeister must REALLY hate Reagan.
I heard on the radio a compare / contrast with how Reagan handled the USSR shootdown vs. Obama this one. Reagan went full out with it--immediately going to the situation room, I think there was a nationwide address, a memorial service, he cleared the rest of his schedule, etc. The idea was that Obama is showing weakness; Reagan was much more in command and forceful in the situation.
Of course Russia today is not the USSR of yesterday: Reagan was deliberately trying to pressure the USSR in every way available, and this was just another opportunity. Obama doing the same would be sort of absurd. Going full on confrontational with Russia would not make the US any friends, and probably push some countries toward Russia.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 18, 2014, 11:56:18 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 10:29:31 AM
So I guess Hansmeister must REALLY hate Reagan.
I heard on the radio a compare / contrast with how Reagan handled the USSR shootdown vs. Obama this one. Reagan went full out with it--immediately going to the situation room, I think there was a nationwide address, a memorial service, he cleared the rest of his schedule, etc. The idea was that Obama is showing weakness; Reagan was much more in command and forceful in the situation.
Of course Russia today is not the USSR of yesterday: Reagan was deliberately trying to pressure the USSR in every way available, and this was just another opportunity. Obama doing the same would be sort of absurd. Going full on confrontational with Russia would not make the US any friends, and probably push some countries toward Russia.
FYI, Reagan first spoke to the public about the incident after 5 days, and used the opportunity to push for nuclear disarmament. ie. by GOP standards of the day, acted like a major pussy.
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 12:03:17 PM
FYI, Reagan first spoke to the public about the incident after 5 days, and used the opportunity to push for nuclear disarmament. ie. by GOP standards of the day, acted like a major pussy.
:hmm:
That is NOT the impression I got from a brief clip of right wing talk radio this morning.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 18, 2014, 12:07:56 PM
:hmm:
That is NOT the impression I got from a brief clip of right wing talk radio this morning.
Things I have learned from Right Wing Talk Radio:
1. The Belgian Government has no right to criticize anybody because of the atrocities committed during the 19th century in the Belgian Congo.
2. Bill Clinton agreeing with right wing policies and signing them into law only proves he is a horrible Left Wing President. In fact this just makes him worse.
3. Anybody thinking Americans would ever support gay marriage is stupid since polls indicate Americans believe in God.
If Tamas in interested in the right wing response, from fox news:
QuoteWhite House leadership: Reagan on KAL 007 vs. Obama on MH17
By K.T. McFarland
• Published July 18, 2014 • There is a saying that great men make history and history makes great men.
Ronald Reagan was the living example of this when, on September 1, 1983, the Soviet Union, without warning, shot down a civilian Korean airliner flying from New York to Seoul, killing all 269 men, women and children on board.
Reagan was on vacation at his ranch in California. He cut his vacation short and headed back to Washington the next day.
The shooting down of the Korean airliner marked a turning point for Reagan. Up until that time he and others had hoped to compromise with the USSR, trusting them to do the right thing for themselves and the world. The incident changed Reagan's mind.
He met with his national security advisers to determine what happened. Initial reports were that Soviet military aircraft had tracked a Korean civilian airliner which had strayed accidentally into their airspace, then deliberately, callously, destroyed it without warning. They initially lied, denying they had anything to do with it. But once their guilt could not be denied, they said their action was justified because the civilian aircraft was a spy plane.
It marked a turning point for Reagan. Up until that time he and others had hoped to compromise with the USSR, trusting them to do the right thing for themselves and the world. The incident changed Reagan's mind.
He concluded the Soviet system was corrupt, malignant, and would ultimately fail. He knew that compromise with Soviet leaders wasn't possible, and that we had to negotiate from a position of strength to have any chance of success.
Reagan took pen to paper and wrote his own speech to the American people, explaining what the Soviets had done and why it was so dangerous to us and the world.
"...make no mistake about it, this attack was not just against ourselves or the Republic of Korea. This was the Soviet Union against the world and the moral precepts which guide human relations among people everywhere. It was an act of barbarism, born of a society which wantonly disregards individual rights and the value of human life and seeks constantly to expand and dominate other nations.
They deny the deed, but in their conflicting and misleading protestations, the Soviets reveal that, yes, shooting down a plane — even one with hundreds of innocent men, women, children, and babies — is a part of their normal procedure if that plane is in what they claim as their airspace.
They owe the world an apology and an offer to join the rest of the world in working out a system to protect against this ever happening again."
Reagan followed strong words with even stronger actions. He accelerated work on the Star Wars missile defense system. He urged Congress and the American people to continue the Reagan defense buildup. He shored up our European allies and encouraged them to stand up to the Communists. And he understood that the Soviet economy depended on high oil prices, so he set about to bankrupt them. Six years after the Soviets shot down the Korean airliner, their empire collapsed.
This is Barack Obama's chance to make history. Will he seize the moment and reverse course? If so, he will restore defense spending. He will take back all those pink slips he's just sent to members of the military. He will reinstate the defense missile shield for Poland and the Czech Republic. He will rally our European allies to stand up to Putin. And he will accelerate American energy independence efforts, so that we and our European allies are no longer subject to Russian energy blackmail.
Now is the time of Obama's testing. Will history make him a great man? Will he rise up to be a great man who makes history? Or will he just play out the clock for his last two years in office, hobnobbing with celebrities, playing golf with moguls, and living the good life?
If so, history will soon move past him, and he will spend the next thirty years as a former president coming in first in polls for the worst president in modern American history.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/18/white-house-leadership-reagan-on-kal-007-vs-obama-on-mh17/
The radio show I heard a bit of this morning took a slightly different tack (though generally the same theme), comparing minute by minute what Obama and Reagan did differently.
Quote from: grumbler on July 18, 2014, 10:33:30 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 08:31:56 AM
I'm almost surprised they didn't hide or destroy the black box and claim they couldn't find it.
They are now "lost," and "no one has ever seen them."
Putin will ensure the black boxes are safe and available for investigation by handing them over to the US IRS agency. ;)
Also, after the Reagan incident we shot down a civilian airliner too. So we can only be so outraged without looking silly.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 18, 2014, 12:17:14 PM
Also, after the Reagan incident we shot down a civilian airliner too. So we can only be so outraged without looking silly.
Yeah, but the Soviet incident is much more chilling. The American idiot in charge launched a rocket based on misidentification of the aircraft. The Soviet pilot saw what he was shooting at, and must've known he was doing the wrong thing, but he went ahead anyway and callously ended 200+ lives with the press of the button, because that's what he was ordered to do.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 18, 2014, 12:17:14 PM
Also, after the Reagan incident we shot down a civilian airliner too. So we can only be so outraged without looking silly.
Well, the Russians and their cronies have a few more under their belt than we do. Also we took responsibility and compensated the victims.
Luckily the (extremely active and thus everywhere dominating) right-wing Hungarian online commenters solved the mystery. The plane was shot down by the... wait for it...
:Joos
Apparently there has been significant looting at the crash site (stay classy, Russkies). Also OSCE monitors were trying to get to the crash site but were chased away by separatist gunfire.
I heard an NPR story this morning naively anticipating that investigators soon would be at the wreckage site to start their work. By international law that would be Ukrainian government officials, and they'd have to fight their way there.
As if a plane crash itself weren't bad enough-- there are multiple layers of shittiness on top of it :mellow:
Quote from: DGuller on July 18, 2014, 12:22:48 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 18, 2014, 12:17:14 PM
Also, after the Reagan incident we shot down a civilian airliner too. So we can only be so outraged without looking silly.
Yeah, but the Soviet incident is much more chilling. The American idiot in charge launched a rocket based on misidentification of the aircraft. The Soviet pilot saw what he was shooting at, and must've known he was doing the wrong thing, but he went ahead anyway and callously ended 200+ lives with the press of the button, because that's what he was ordered to do.
Yes there seems to be a few similarities between the civilian Iranian airliner shoot down and this tragedy*, maybe this one could be handled in similar way to that one? The difficulty being one 'side' are rebels whereas Iran was just a government the US didn't have diplomatic relations with.
Let's just hope the US/Netherlands don't go down route chosen by the Iranians, in how they react to this.
*I'm assuming it wasn't an intentional act to shoot down a known civilian airliner, rather than just gross stupidity and criminal disregard for the rules of war.
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 01:18:23 PM
Luckily the (extremely active and thus everywhere dominating) right-wing Hungarian online commenters solved the mystery. The plane was shot down by the... wait for it...
:Joos
:ph34r:
How, one wonders, does shooting down this plane advance the cause of the Elders of Zion?
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2014, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 18, 2014, 01:18:23 PM
Luckily the (extremely active and thus everywhere dominating) right-wing Hungarian online commenters solved the mystery. The plane was shot down by the... wait for it...
:Joos
:ph34r:
How, one wonders, does shooting down this plane advance the cause of the Elders of Zion?
Everybody listens to this while they invade Palestina
Damn first they create ISIS now this. Those dastardly Zionists have power to do everything BUT solve the Palestinian conflict.
Quote from: Valmy on July 18, 2014, 02:02:36 PM
Damn first they create ISIS now this. Those dastardly Zionists have power to do everything BUT solve the Palestinian conflict.
Of course. There's money to be made *and* muslims to oppress.
There are not many similarities between this shoot-down and that of Iran Air Flight 655, other than there being a missile involved and an airliner involved. USS Vicennes was engaged in active combat with Iranian forces*, and an attack by Iranian Air Force was, in fact, being attempted and had been reported to the Vincennes. F-14 radar was coming from the direction of the aircraft (though it was from an F-14 being prepped for launch at the airfield the IA flight had just left. The air defense officer mistook the decreasing range for decreasing altitude and, despite the fact that other people in the CIC were calling out that IAF 655 was COMMAIR, fired. The US immediately acknowledged the action and conceded its culpability when the facts came out. It compensated the victims and the airline.
None of those factor played into the downing of the Malaysian airliner. The firing battery was not in combat, and didn't think the aircraft was a imminent threat. The missile ws fired because the operators wanted to fire it, and for no other reason. They didn't appear to even attempt to communicate with the aircraft (as the USS Vincennes had done something like had done 12 times before firing on IAF 655) or to identify it.
Apples and oranges.
*illegally, as it turns out, though that has nothing to do with the actual shoot-down other than to increase US culpability.
Indeed. Recklessly playing with their new toys.
Quote from: grumbler on July 18, 2014, 02:24:03 PM
F-14 radar was coming from the direction of the aircraft (though it was from an F-14 being prepped for launch at the airfield the IA flight had just left.
I had not heard this tidbit before, though. Why and how did they get the radar to transmit on the ground? They would have had to bypass the Weight on Wheels interlocks, and I can't think of anything that powering the antenna on the ground would gain for a pre-flight anyway. Is there something about the F-14's system that allowed or even necessitated this?
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on July 18, 2014, 02:59:00 PM
I had not heard this tidbit before, though. Why and how did they get the radar to transmit on the ground? They would have had to bypass the Weight on Wheels interlocks, and I can't think of anything that powering the antenna on the ground would gain for a pre-flight anyway. Is there something about the F-14's system that allowed or even necessitated this?
The aircraft were old and using cannibalized parts. I believe they normally tested all the systems before launch, because reliability was so low. In fact, the aircraft would have been armed with iron bombs because nothing else still worked.
Quote from: grumbler on July 18, 2014, 02:24:03 PM
There are not many similarities between this shoot-down and that of Iran Air Flight 655, other than there being a missile involved and an airliner involved. USS Vicennes was engaged in active combat with Iranian forces*, and an attack by Iranian Air Force was, in fact, being attempted and had been reported to the Vincennes. F-14 radar was coming from the direction of the aircraft (though it was from an F-14 being prepped for launch at the airfield the IA flight had just left. The air defense officer mistook the decreasing range for decreasing altitude and, despite the fact that other people in the CIC were calling out that IAF 655 was COMMAIR, fired. The US immediately acknowledged the action and conceded its culpability when the facts came out. It compensated the victims and the airline.
None of those factor played into the downing of the Malaysian airliner. The firing battery was not in combat, and didn't think the aircraft was a imminent threat. The missile ws fired because the operators wanted to fire it, and for no other reason. They didn't appear to even attempt to communicate with the aircraft (as the USS Vincennes had done something like had done 12 times before firing on IAF 655) or to identify it.
Apples and oranges.
*illegally, as it turns out, though that has nothing to do with the actual shoot-down other than to increase US culpability.
A very creative interpretation of events. I suppose if you are as old as Grumbler 8 years is "immediate".
I thought the US did pretty much immediately acknowledge it had shot down a civilian plane. What am I missing, Raz?
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
I thought the US did pretty much immediately acknowledge it had shot down a civilian plane. What am I missing, Raz?
The only fact I see in dispute is the damages bit. Apparently that didn't take place until the mid-90s when the US was sued? Well that's what wiki says. -_-
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
I thought the US did pretty much immediately acknowledge it had shot down a civilian plane. What am I missing, Raz?
It took 8 years to compensate the victims, I don't think there ever was an admission of wrong doing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/17/when-airliners-get-shot-down-facts-get-skewed-quickly/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/17/when-airliners-get-shot-down-facts-get-skewed-quickly/)
QuoteOne obvious example involves the United States. On July 3, 1988, a helicopter from the USS Vincennes, a guided missile cruiser, came under fire from Iranian gunboats while over the Persian Gulf. Seeing an aircraft speeding their way, the ship's crew opened fire with two surface-to-air missiles — and brought down a commercial jet, Iran Air Flight 655, carrying 290 people. Navy officials said the Vincennes crew thought it was an Iranian fighter jet, and a threat to their safety.
As outlined in The Washington Post the next day, the Pentagon at first denied Iranian accusations that the Navy had shot down an airliner. Within hours, however, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs at the time, Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., said the United States had confirmed the incident.
Even then, Crowe moved quickly to to back the skipper of the ship, Capt. William C. Rogers III. He said the Airbus had flown four miles west of the usual commercial airline route, that the pilot ignored repeated radio warnings from the Vincennes to change course, and that its altitude was decreasing as it got closer. U.S. officials also said repeatedly the ship was in international waters, which would put the Iranians in the wrong for opening fire on the ship in the first place.
Few of those details turned out to be true. The Vincennes and helicopter were actually in Iranian waters and airspace, subsequent investigations found. ABC News, among others, later reported that the plane actually was flying where it should have been and had already turned away from the Vincennes when it was shot down. U.S. officials also said the helicopter that came under fire was checking on a vessel that had issued a distress call, but later investigations show the ship did not exist.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
I thought the US did pretty much immediately acknowledge it had shot down a civilian plane. What am I missing, Raz?
:secret: Its Raz and his whole creepy stalker routine. Just move on.
Quote from: grumbler on July 18, 2014, 04:28:09 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
I thought the US did pretty much immediately acknowledge it had shot down a civilian plane. What am I missing, Raz?
:secret: Its Raz and his whole creepy stalker routine. Just move on.
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Quote from: Razgovory on July 18, 2014, 04:04:12 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
I thought the US did pretty much immediately acknowledge it had shot down a civilian plane. What am I missing, Raz?
It took 8 years to compensate the victims, I don't think there ever was an admission of wrong doing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/17/when-airliners-get-shot-down-facts-get-skewed-quickly/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/17/when-airliners-get-shot-down-facts-get-skewed-quickly/)
QuoteOne obvious example involves the United States. On July 3, 1988, a helicopter from the USS Vincennes, a guided missile cruiser, came under fire from Iranian gunboats while over the Persian Gulf. Seeing an aircraft speeding their way, the ship's crew opened fire with two surface-to-air missiles — and brought down a commercial jet, Iran Air Flight 655, carrying 290 people. Navy officials said the Vincennes crew thought it was an Iranian fighter jet, and a threat to their safety.
As outlined in The Washington Post the next day, the Pentagon at first denied Iranian accusations that the Navy had shot down an airliner. Within hours, however, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs at the time, Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., said the United States had confirmed the incident.
Even then, Crowe moved quickly to to back the skipper of the ship, Capt. William C. Rogers III. He said the Airbus had flown four miles west of the usual commercial airline route, that the pilot ignored repeated radio warnings from the Vincennes to change course, and that its altitude was decreasing as it got closer. U.S. officials also said repeatedly the ship was in international waters, which would put the Iranians in the wrong for opening fire on the ship in the first place.
Few of those details turned out to be true. The Vincennes and helicopter were actually in Iranian waters and airspace, subsequent investigations found. ABC News, among others, later reported that the plane actually was flying where it should have been and had already turned away from the Vincennes when it was shot down. U.S. officials also said the helicopter that came under fire was checking on a vessel that had issued a distress call, but later investigations show the ship did not exist.
I'm just going by what he said. The US did immediately acknowledge what it did. Read into it whatever you choose, but he was factually correct.
Well except for initial denial, that is true.
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
:huh: No, just an observation. There is no "ball" of which I am aware. I made a factually correct statement and drew a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence, and Raz attempted to argue that my age was somehow related to an airliner shootdown in 1988 and that i was creating an interpretation of events. Why don't you ask
him your question? Double standards much?
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 04:44:06 PM
,,,,,,
I'm just going by what he said. The US did immediately acknowledge what it did. Read into it whatever you choose, but he was factually correct.
I think in part that would be because the US is an organized government with a chain of command; these rebels less resemble that, than a bunch of nationalist idiots.
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Just a note about proper defence. You should always play the man not the ball. :P :D
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Just a note about proper defence. You should always play the man not the ball. :P :D
Play with men or play with balls? :hmm:
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2014, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Just a note about proper defence. You should always play the man not the ball. :P :D
Play with men or play with balls? :hmm:
Whatever feels natural.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 05:51:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2014, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Just a note about proper defence. You should always play the man not the ball. :P :D
Play with men or play with balls? :hmm:
Whatever feels natural.
Both? :huh:
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2014, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Just a note about proper defence. You should always play the man not the ball. :P :D
Play with men or play with balls? :hmm:
Why do you limit yourself, you are not particularly concerned about defence.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Just a note about proper defence. You should always play the man not the ball. :P :D
:cool:
Yes, I need to get with it and adopt those tactics; it's as if I haven't learnt anything from Languish. :P
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 05:53:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Just a note about proper defence. You should always play the man not the ball. :P :D
:cool:
Yes, I need to get with it and adopt those tactics; it's as if I haven't learnt anything from Languish. :P
:D
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2014, 05:52:48 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2014, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Just a note about proper defence. You should always play the man not the ball. :P :D
Play with men or play with balls? :hmm:
Why do you limit yourself, you are not particularly concerned about defence.
Are you joking? Defense is pretty important.
Some US officials are going over to Ukraine to investigate. FBI and NTSB types. Does anyone have a problem with that?
Quote from: Razgovory on July 18, 2014, 06:28:53 PM
Some US officials are going over to Ukraine to investigate. FBI and NTSB types. Does anyone have a problem with that?
don't you read game of thrones? a real man goes himself, not hide behind agencies
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 09:09:53 AM
Looks like flights are now avoiding Ukraine, though I'd still be nervous if my flight path skirted the eastern border with Russia.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.washingtonpo.com%2Fblogs%2Fwonkblog%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F07%2Fukraine.jpg&hash=0f3e1e90c16c7b61eea5154ae3f215513e68b781)
Also I like the shaded oval around Ukraine, as if the relative lack of plane icons weren't enough clue to where it is.
That's good. In flying UAE to UK this month and it did seem flying over the Ukraine would be likely.
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2014, 05:52:04 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2014, 05:51:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2014, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 18, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 18, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Would this be a case of you playing the man, rather than the ball?
Just a note about proper defence. You should always play the man not the ball. :P :D
Play with men or play with balls? :hmm:
Whatever feels natural.
Both? :huh:
Then keep on keepin' on, mah man.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 18, 2014, 06:28:53 PM
Some US officials are going over to Ukraine to investigate. FBI and NTSB types. Does anyone have a problem with that?
Nope. That would be good per diem.
Okay, I was just checking. After so many people could see that the Benghazi attacks were obviously coming I thought I would ask if there would be any problems this time.
Stop Razzing up the thread, Raz. It's already Hansied.
I was reading about the NTSB response teams; when it comes to Latin America, Africa and Asia, their biggest problem is trying to get the locals to seal off the crash site before they get there. Apparently locals looting the dead of their valuables and belongings is a big problem in shitty broke ass countries when it comes to identification of corpses.
"You can identify my wife because she wore my grandmother's wedding ring, it's very unique."
"Yeah, about that..."
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 19, 2014, 06:31:16 AM
Stop Razzing up the thread, Raz. It's already Hansied.
I was reading about the NTSB response teams; when it comes to Latin America, Africa and Asia, their biggest problem is trying to get the locals to seal off the crash site before they get there. Apparently locals looting the dead of their valuables and belongings is a big problem in shitty broke ass countries when it comes to identification of corpses.
"You can identify my wife because she wore my grandmother's wedding ring, it's very unique."
"Yeah, about that..."
Ukraine is in Europe though.
And a big thanks to the Aspie Asian for pointing that shit out.
Fuck I really hate this place sometimes.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
I'm curious how Europe will react to this. After all, most of the dead of Western Europeans.
Most people seem to think the shock will provoke Euro-governments into a reassessment of Russia and, possibly, a harder line against them.
I wouldn't bet on it personally.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 19, 2014, 08:37:02 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
I'm curious how Europe will react to this. After all, most of the dead of Western Europeans.
Most people seem to think the shock will provoke Euro-governments into a reassessment of Russia and, possibly, a harder line against them.
I wouldn't bet on it personally.
I bet the French are already breaking out the ceremonial uniforms to surrender in.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 19, 2014, 08:37:02 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 17, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
I'm curious how Europe will react to this. After all, most of the dead of Western Europeans.
Most people seem to think the shock will provoke Euro-governments into a reassessment of Russia and, possibly, a harder line against them.
I wouldn't bet on it personally.
I'm not betting on it either, but there's always hope.
Another released wiretap from SBU reveals that Moscow is urging the rebels to make sure black boxes don't fall into the hands of OSCE. You'd think they would be looking for a secure line by now. The other story hidden in plain view is that all those intercepted conversations are between rebel commanders and intelligence officers in Russia.
Well, not all the conversations, some of them are one degree removed from Russian handlers.
I wonder if when the CIA came to Kiev to help Ukraine keep it's lines secure they showed them some other tricks as well.
It's amusing how RT, ITAR-TASS and RIA Novosti mostly talk of "the crash" rarely, if ever, mentioning that the plane was shot down.
Though I guess it's implied in an RT article:
Quote"We repeatedly called upon all conflicting sides to stop the bloodshed immediately and sit down at the negotiating table," the President reminded. "I can say with confidence that if military operations were not resumed on June 28 in eastern Ukraine, this tragedy wouldn't have happened."
I was not pleased really with Obama calling for a cease-fire.
That was rather an odd thing to demand, considering it is pretty much playing straight into Russian/separatist hands.
Why would or should the Ukraine honor a cease fire that leaves part of their country under rebel control - especially when they are winning?
It struck me at the time as kind of an "amateur" thing to demand - like the kind of demand you make as a matter of course (People fighting? Demand a cease-fire! Cease-fire is good, right?), but only (in this case) if you don't really think about who would benefit from such a thing.
Quote from: Berkut on July 21, 2014, 12:27:55 AM
I was not pleased really with Obama calling for a cease-fire.
That was rather an odd thing to demand, considering it is pretty much playing straight into Russian/separatist hands.
Why would or should the Ukraine honor a cease fire that leaves part of their country under rebel control - especially when they are winning?
It struck me at the time as kind of an "amateur" thing to demand - like the kind of demand you make as a matter of course (People fighting? Demand a cease-fire! Cease-fire is good, right?), but only (in this case) if you don't really think about who would benefit from such a thing.
I can see your point. A few thoughts in haste;
But renewed fighting also benefits the rebels, because it gives Russia the justification and cover to increase their assistance to the separatists and also to denounce "escalation".
Given the Ukrainians don't have the capacity to crush the rebels in one fell swoop, calling for a ceasefire makes sense if it is tied with efforts to diplomatically isolate the rebels and Russia.
The closest analogy to this crisis (admittedly an imperfect one) was former Yugoslavia, and there the US mode of operation seemed to be to call for deescalation and ceasefires unless the Good Guys were ready to militarily trounce the others - see Operation Storm and the Bosniak-Croat offensives of summer 1995.
Quote from: Warspite on July 21, 2014, 05:47:43 AM
The closest analogy to this crisis (admittedly an imperfect one) was former Yugoslavia, and there the US mode of operation seemed to be to call for deescalation and ceasefires unless the Good Guys were ready to militarily trounce the others - see Operation Storm and the Bosniak-Croat offensives of summer 1995.
Which, by then, was too late.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 21, 2014, 08:15:31 AM
Quote from: Warspite on July 21, 2014, 05:47:43 AM
The closest analogy to this crisis (admittedly an imperfect one) was former Yugoslavia, and there the US mode of operation seemed to be to call for deescalation and ceasefires unless the Good Guys were ready to militarily trounce the others - see Operation Storm and the Bosniak-Croat offensives of summer 1995.
Which, by then, was too late.
Had to give the Europeans a go at screwing it up first.
Quote from: DGuller on July 20, 2014, 10:55:08 PM
Another released wiretap from SBU reveals that Moscow is urging the rebels to make sure black boxes don't fall into the hands of OSCE. You'd think they would be looking for a secure line by now. The other story hidden in plain view is that all those intercepted conversations are between rebel commanders and intelligence officers in Russia.
Yeah, plus the fact that the Russkies and Rebels, many of whom are one and the same, are preventing investigators from getting into the area or hampering their job. They don't want the investigators there, at least not until they "clean up" the area a bit of envidence of their involvement. That way it may help them try and deflect, by trying to blame Ukraine or what ever. To me that right there says they're culpable for this tragedy, because if Ukrainian forces had done it, like Russia initially said and will try to peddle that excuse, then they'd want investigators in there.
Quote from: Berkut on July 21, 2014, 12:27:55 AM
I was not pleased really with Obama calling for a cease-fire.
That was rather an odd thing to demand, considering it is pretty much playing straight into Russian/separatist hands.
Why would or should the Ukraine honor a cease fire that leaves part of their country under rebel control - especially when they are winning?
It struck me at the time as kind of an "amateur" thing to demand - like the kind of demand you make as a matter of course (People fighting? Demand a cease-fire! Cease-fire is good, right?), but only (in this case) if you don't really think about who would benefit from such a thing.
I think a lot of calls for cease-fire are rituals in a complicated diplomatic game. You say it because it's polite, but you don't expect anyone to actually act on your calls (there may be a cease-fire brokered, but it wouldn't be due to public exhortation to everyone to just get along).
Quote from: DGuller on July 21, 2014, 09:20:38 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 21, 2014, 12:27:55 AM
I was not pleased really with Obama calling for a cease-fire.
That was rather an odd thing to demand, considering it is pretty much playing straight into Russian/separatist hands.
Why would or should the Ukraine honor a cease fire that leaves part of their country under rebel control - especially when they are winning?
It struck me at the time as kind of an "amateur" thing to demand - like the kind of demand you make as a matter of course (People fighting? Demand a cease-fire! Cease-fire is good, right?), but only (in this case) if you don't really think about who would benefit from such a thing.
I think a lot of calls for cease-fire are rituals in a complicated diplomatic game. You say it because it's polite, but you don't expect anyone to actually act on your calls (there may be a cease-fire brokered, but it wouldn't be due to public exhortation to everyone to just get along).
I thought it was more "pro-forma" thing to say, without actually thinking it through, like he was winging it - I noticed he didn't repeat the call.
I can just imagine his advisors in the background going "NO DON'T SAY THAT!!!!" after he comes off...
I've heard he has a tendency to go "off script" at times in his speeches, which probably works well sometimes, but could get him into trouble in cases like this.
Probably doesn't really matter. And of course I am completely speculating.
Quote from: Berkut on July 21, 2014, 12:27:55 AM
I was not pleased really with Obama calling for a cease-fire.
That was rather an odd thing to demand, considering it is pretty much playing straight into Russian/separatist hands.
Why would or should the Ukraine honor a cease fire that leaves part of their country under rebel control - especially when they are winning?
It struck me at the time as kind of an "amateur" thing to demand - like the kind of demand you make as a matter of course (People fighting? Demand a cease-fire! Cease-fire is good, right?), but only (in this case) if you don't really think about who would benefit from such a thing.
I am inclined to agree. Obama has not handled this well at all. In fact, I still think his blundering in Syria has emboldened Putin here.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 21, 2014, 10:26:26 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 21, 2014, 12:27:55 AM
I was not pleased really with Obama calling for a cease-fire.
That was rather an odd thing to demand, considering it is pretty much playing straight into Russian/separatist hands.
Why would or should the Ukraine honor a cease fire that leaves part of their country under rebel control - especially when they are winning?
It struck me at the time as kind of an "amateur" thing to demand - like the kind of demand you make as a matter of course (People fighting? Demand a cease-fire! Cease-fire is good, right?), but only (in this case) if you don't really think about who would benefit from such a thing.
I am inclined to agree. Obama has not handled this well at all. In fact, I still think his blundering in Syria has emboldened Putin here.
Yeah, agreed in general. Unless Obama is pulling a mother of all rope-a-dopes, or playing a long game none of us can see coming, it's defintely bad luck for the world that he's the one facing down Putin as a US president for the next 2.5 years.
So I guess Russia's line is now that there was a Ukrainian military plane flying very close to the downed airliner. Wonder if that could be a prelude to an admission that the separatists shot it down (while still blaming the Ukrainian gov't. for orchestrating the disaster, I'm sure).
If I was this guy, I'd try buying a lottery ticket. Just in case luck really is a tangible thing. :D
http://abcnews.go.com/International/dutch-cyclist-avoids-tragedy-scheduled-doomed-flights/story?id=24632968
QuoteA Dutch cyclist escaped tragedy twice after being scheduled to fly on doomed Malaysia Airlines flights -- Flight MH 17, which was shot down over eastern Ukraine, and Flight MH 370, which disappeared over the Indian Ocean in March.
According to a Netherlands public broadcaster RTV Oost, Maarten de Jonge was scheduled to be on both Malaysia Airlines Flight MH 17 and the still missing flight MH 370. In both cases de Jonge ended up changing his flight at the last minute.
In a statement on his website De Jonge, 29, confirmed he had been scheduled to take the doomed flight on Thursday but ended up changing his ticket for another flight this weekend.
"What has happened is terrible, so many victims, that's a horrible thing," de Jonge said in a translated statement on his website. "I have my story done and I would like to leave it ... my story is ultimately nothing compared to the misery in which so many people are paid."
De Jonge told RTV Oost in spite of his close calls with disaster, he plans on flying to Malaysia later this week and isn't worried about the flight.
If I were him I'd continue the routine of canceling the original flight every time he travels. Kept him alive this far....
Quote from: Warspite on July 21, 2014, 05:47:43 AM
The closest analogy to this crisis (admittedly an imperfect one) was former Yugoslavia, and there the US mode of operation seemed to be to call for deescalation and ceasefires unless the Good Guys were ready to militarily trounce the others - see Operation Storm and the Bosniak-Croat offensives of summer 1995.
I don't recall the US calling for anything at all up until Dayton.
Speesh: nice try to defend the guy, but that was a dumbass comment by Paul.
Quote from: Warspite on July 21, 2014, 05:47:43 AM
The closest analogy to this crisis (admittedly an imperfect one) was former Yugoslavia, and there the US mode of operation seemed to be to call for deescalation and ceasefires unless the Good Guys were ready to militarily trounce the others - see Operation Storm and the Bosniak-Croat offensives of summer 1995.
I'm not sure that was the plan, even if that is what happened. There was lots of condemnation of Operation Storm, and I think before being over turned had the status of something of a war crime.
I think a better description of what happened is the western world saw bad things happening, said "STOP! CEASEFIRE!" Either because serbs are bad or because they started in a position to do bad things, they did more bad things to start with, thus they got hit with tougher sanctions.
Over time the initial serb advantages wore off, and the sanctions took their toll. The croats had the strength to launch storm, but the west didn't especially welcome it.
Quote from: derspiess on July 21, 2014, 02:04:15 PM
I wasn't defending him; just explaining what I think motivated his comments.
Either way, a dumbass thing to say. As dumbass as what those Europeaceniks were saying earlier.
If Operation Storm is that big Croat offensive that come a bit before Dayton, my understanding is it was made possible by supplies of arms from Germany, in particular artillery.
Mitt warned us of Russia.
Quote from: Jaron on July 22, 2014, 01:25:17 AM
Mitt warned us of Russia.
Credit to him. I never criticized him for saying that Russia is our primary geopolitical enemy, and I kind of felt disappointed that Obama's team thought Mitt's assessment was worthy of mockery. Clearly Obama is going to regret making that clever comment he made during the debate, if he isn't already.
If we can get a few looting, drunk militias and decomposing bodies in here, the thread will be a bigger mess than the crash site. :lol:
There is heavy fighting going on at a bunch of places and the rotting bodies of the airplane passengers have been railroaded to Ukraine proper, but this cannot really compare in news value to Chapter 23935353 of the USA Tribal Wars
Quote from: DGuller on July 22, 2014, 01:35:45 AM
Quote from: Jaron on July 22, 2014, 01:25:17 AM
Mitt warned us of Russia.
Credit to him. I never criticized him for saying that Russia is our primary geopolitical enemy, and I kind of felt disappointed that Obama's team thought Mitt's assessment was worthy of mockery. Clearly Obama is going to regret making that clever comment he made during the debate, if he isn't already.
Bully? Yes. Nuisance? Yup. Pain in the ass? Definitely. Obstructionist? You betcha! *wink*
But they're still a far cry from being #1 on the threat board. We have more pressing--and real concerns--in the Pacific, and with the occassional appearance of some turbaned idiots on monkey bars in the desert that keep Hansy up at night.
To be fair to Mitt, Russia is the biggest strategic threat to stock portfolios containing oil and gas majors, which is probably what he was thinking about.
To whoever separated the crap out of this thread, thank you.
Quote from: frunk on July 22, 2014, 10:37:02 AM
To whoever separated the crap out of this thread, thank you.
Seperatist!
;)
Quote from: Malthus on July 22, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Seperatist!
;)
There's a joke here involving the linquistic root of shit, I'm just not thinking of it.
Have you ever actually met a Texanationalist vM? You used to see the SECEDE bumper stickers around from time to time but I never have actually met one.
Quote from: Valmy on July 22, 2014, 11:07:18 AM
Have you ever actually met a Texanationalist vM? You used to see the SECEDE bumper stickers around from time to time but I never have actually met one.
I get the impression that many/most of them are not quite 100% serious about actually seceding.
Well, of course they aren't. They like things like paved highways, and disaster recovery when their ignorant asses get buttfucked by tornados and Hurricane Buttfucker.
Probably just one of those fun things for them to talk about, because they know it will never happen.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on July 22, 2014, 10:55:25 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 22, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
Quote from: frunk on July 22, 2014, 10:37:02 AM
To whoever separated the crap out of this thread, thank you.
Seperatist!
;)
I do live in Texas...
This thread has been liberated by the Langustistan People's Republic. We will hold the referendum tomorrow. All hail Putin!
Quote from: Valmy on July 22, 2014, 11:07:18 AM
Have you ever actually met a Texanationalist vM? You used to see the SECEDE bumper stickers around from time to time but I never have actually met one.
Not a serious one. I have met people who play up Texas' supposed importance to the rest of the country and how much the US would lose if Texas seceded. No one was seriously calling for it, though.
Luckily, after working hard to rid of this thread of stereotypical US political BS thrown at each other by US posters, BvS immediately starts off a conversation that has every chance to deteriorate into the exact thing he just removed.
Quote from: Tamas on July 22, 2014, 11:30:47 AM
Luckily, after working hard to rid of this thread of stereotypical US political BS thrown at each other by US posters, BvS immediately starts off a conversation that has every chance to deteriorate into the exact thing he just removed.
Texanationalism is something not even DG or Berkut have strong feelings about.
Quote from: Valmy on July 22, 2014, 11:32:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 22, 2014, 11:30:47 AM
Luckily, after working hard to rid of this thread of stereotypical US political BS thrown at each other by US posters, BvS immediately starts off a conversation that has every chance to deteriorate into the exact thing he just removed.
Texanationalism is not something even DG or Berkut have strong feelings about.
Phew
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2014, 10:18:07 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 22, 2014, 01:35:45 AM
Quote from: Jaron on July 22, 2014, 01:25:17 AM
Mitt warned us of Russia.
Credit to him. I never criticized him for saying that Russia is our primary geopolitical enemy, and I kind of felt disappointed that Obama's team thought Mitt's assessment was worthy of mockery. Clearly Obama is going to regret making that clever comment he made during the debate, if he isn't already.
Bully? Yes. Nuisance? Yup. Pain in the ass? Definitely. Obstructionist? You betcha! *wink*
But they're still a far cry from being #1 on the threat board. We have more pressing--and real concerns--in the Pacific, and with the occassional appearance of some turbaned idiots on monkey bars in the desert that keep Hansy up at night.
I think it's debatable, but it's not like Obama mocked Romney because he thought China was #1 threat.
Quote from: Valmy on July 22, 2014, 11:32:41 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 22, 2014, 11:30:47 AM
Luckily, after working hard to rid of this thread of stereotypical US political BS thrown at each other by US posters, BvS immediately starts off a conversation that has every chance to deteriorate into the exact thing he just removed.
Texanationalism is something not even DG or Berkut have strong feelings about.
Are you this fucking insane? I very much have a strong feeling about it. Not sure what it is yet, though.
I respectfully disagree with CdM. Russia is the main enemy. They will always be the enemy.
Quote from: DGuller on July 22, 2014, 12:25:24 PM
I think it's debatable, but it's not like Obama mocked Romney because he thought China was #1 threat.
No, he mocked Romney for bitching about the US Navy having shunk to pre-WW1 levels. In that regard, Obama was correct: greater capability does not require greater numbers. We don't need to challeng the Soviets on all 7 seas anymore.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2014, 01:37:21 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 22, 2014, 12:25:24 PM
I think it's debatable, but it's not like Obama mocked Romney because he thought China was #1 threat.
No, he mocked Romney for bitching about the US Navy having shunk to pre-WW1 levels. In that regard, Obama was correct: greater capability does not require greater numbers. We don't need to challeng the Soviets on all 7 seas anymore.
I think the bayonet thing was a different mocking. That one was good. I don't recall the context, but I don't think the Russia thing was connected to the Navy reduction thing.
The only thing worse than driving through Texas would be driving through Texas and having to go through customs twice.
Considering Romney's Russia comment wasn't during the debate, but prompted by the moderator, it was still fair game and relevant.
OK, so back to the Ukraine...
It seems pretty clear what happened:
The Russians gave the separatists a high altitude SAM.
Rebels used it (or Russian techs) to shoot down what they thought was a military plane, but oops, turned out to be a airliner.
What is an appropriate response from the West if the above is what happened? More sanctions against Russia?
I would favor additional support for the Ukraine as well - we should Lend Lease them some drones.
Quote from: Berkut on July 22, 2014, 01:51:22 PM
I would favor additional support for the Ukraine as well - we should Lend Lease them some unarmed drones.
Agree, subject to the bolded change.
Actually we should order some drones from Israel & have them shipped to Kiev.
I don't think we should be arming Ukraine against Russia Russian separatists.
In addition to providing unlimited satellite and imagery intel, I want Green Beanies and Delta operators on the ground in a covert advisory capacity macht schnell.
Quote from: Berkut on July 22, 2014, 01:51:22 PM
The Russians gave the separatists a high altitude SAM.
Sp it's been confirmed then that it wasn't a SAM from that Ukrainian weapons depot that the Rebels seized a few weeks back? I was unaware of this. :hmm:
Depends what you mean by confirmed. CNN showed some video footage released by the Ukrainian government of a Buk missile launcher (with one missile tube empty) driving through seperatist controlled territory.
US sats picked it up firing from "separatists" zone of control.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 22, 2014, 04:48:11 PM
US sats picked it up firing from "separatists" zone of control.
Yes, but the issue is where they got the weapon from. Did they steal it from an overrun Ukrainan armory, or did the Russians just give it to them?
That still leaves open the question of whether this was a missile captured by the separatists or one provided to the separatists by the Russians. My guess is the former, but that still leaves open the possibility of Russian technicians operating the thing.
edit: damnit, Malthus.
Okay this sounds less ambiguous, if true:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukranian-officials-accuse-rebel-militias-of-moving-bodies-tampering-with-evidence/2014/07/19/bef07204-0f1c-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html
QuoteKIEV, Ukraine — The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.
"We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems," the official said. U.S. intelligence was "starting to get indications . . . a little more than a week ago" that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.
The official's comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists.
Quote from: Malthus on July 22, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 22, 2014, 04:48:11 PM
US sats picked it up firing from "separatists" zone of control.
Yes, but the issue is where they got the weapon from. Did they steal it from an overrun Ukrainan armory, or did the Russians just give it to them?
That strikes me as less of an issue. For one thing, these aren't really "separatists", anymore then the people that took over Crimea were "separatists". These are Russian soldiers out of uniform who have crossed the border. Whether they are Russians who brought their own kit, or Russians who captured some doesn't really matter much. Also, when did we stop using NATO reporting names? I heard about this, and was thinking "What the hell is a 'Buc'"? It's an SA-11 Gadfly.
Quote from: derspiess on July 22, 2014, 04:52:56 PM
That still leaves open the question of whether this was a missile captured by the separatists or one provided to the separatists by the Russians. My guess is the former, but that still leaves open the possibility of Russian technicians operating the thing.
edit: damnit, Malthus.
I must admit that I don't see any difference between the scenarios.
I'm not often impressed by Dutch politicians, but foreign affairs minister Timmermans gave a very good speech at the UN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGCBHNcKyI
Quote from: grumbler on July 22, 2014, 06:04:46 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 22, 2014, 04:52:56 PM
That still leaves open the question of whether this was a missile captured by the separatists or one provided to the separatists by the Russians. My guess is the former, but that still leaves open the possibility of Russian technicians operating the thing.
edit: damnit, Malthus.
I must admit that I don't see any difference between the scenarios.
Me neither. In the end the separatists would not have shot down a passenger plane if Russia hadn't supported them.
A Hungarian blogger-turned-journalist whom I like pointed out the utter lack of a unified EU answer to this. He stated, and it is hard to argue with, that the EU does not exist, as far as foreign policy is concerned. Its member states, like the Dutch in this case, are left alone to deal with their foreign problems.
Quote from: Tamas on July 23, 2014, 06:11:53 AM
A Hungarian blogger-turned-journalist whom I like pointed out the utter lack of a unified EU answer to this. He stated, and it is hard to argue with, that the EU does not exist, as far as foreign policy is concerned. Its member states, like the Dutch in this case, are left alone to deal with their foreign problems.
True enough. The Dutch government is now considering sending troops to Ukraine to secure the crash site.
Apparently, two Ukrainian fighter planes have been shot down just now.
And a reporter has been kidnapped in Donetsk.
Meanwhile, UK intelligence officials have evidence that the rebels planned to mess up investigations at the crash site by scattering parts of other airplanes there.
http://news.sky.com/story/1306134/rebels-mh17-site-sabotage-plan-intercepted
Quote from: Norgy on July 23, 2014, 06:48:51 AM
Apparently, two Ukrainian fighter planes have been shot down just now.
not seeing this anywhere
Quote from: Tamas on July 23, 2014, 07:24:58 AM
Quote from: Norgy on July 23, 2014, 06:48:51 AM
Apparently, two Ukrainian fighter planes have been shot down just now.
not seeing this anywhere
Try google.
Quote from: Tamas on July 23, 2014, 06:11:53 AM
A Hungarian blogger-turned-journalist whom I like pointed out the utter lack of a unified EU answer to this. He stated, and it is hard to argue with, that the EU does not exist, as far as foreign policy is concerned. Its member states, like the Dutch in this case, are left alone to deal with their foreign problems.
Which is kind of funny considering how the Russian side is so big on talking about eu imperialist policy
Quote from: grumbler on July 22, 2014, 06:04:46 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 22, 2014, 04:52:56 PM
That still leaves open the question of whether this was a missile captured by the separatists or one provided to the separatists by the Russians. My guess is the former, but that still leaves open the possibility of Russian technicians operating the thing.
edit: damnit, Malthus.
I must admit that I don't see any difference between the scenarios.
You don't?
If the missile was originally Ukrainian then the Russians have no direct responsibility and increasing sanctions due to the shootdown is unjustified.*
If the missile was originally Russian then they do have direct responsibility and increasing sanctions is justified and neccessary.
Had you asked me yesterday I would have said that the missile was 99% likely to have been one the Rebels siezed from the Ukrainian arsenal. Today, assuming the report alluded to above about Buks being seen crossing the border into Russia is accurate, I'd probably say that it's now 50/50 or worse.**
*In fact in this case there'd be a good argument that the Ukraine owed financial compensation for the deaths of the passengers rather than Russia due to their not adequately securing the weapon used.**which surprises me assuming the doom-sayers who see Russia's end-game as being direct military intervention are correct. It's one of the stupider things I can imagine doing giving SAMs to amateurs when I expect to be sending my own planes into the area in a few weeks or months time.
Quote from: Tamas on July 23, 2014, 07:24:58 AM
Quote from: Norgy on July 23, 2014, 06:48:51 AM
Apparently, two Ukrainian fighter planes have been shot down just now.
not seeing this anywhere
http://abcnews.go.com/International/ukrainian-jets-shot-defense-ministry/story?id=24674661
I've seen a couple other reports, and of course they also refer to the Su-25 as a fighter :rolleyes:
Annoying, isn't it? Like using "clip" for "magazine" :P
MAH STURMOVIK
Quote from: grumbler on July 22, 2014, 06:04:46 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 22, 2014, 04:52:56 PM
That still leaves open the question of whether this was a missile captured by the separatists or one provided to the separatists by the Russians. My guess is the former, but that still leaves open the possibility of Russian technicians operating the thing.
edit: damnit, Malthus.
I must admit that I don't see any difference between the scenarios.
There isn't much, but there is some.
We all know the seperatists are basically Russia's creatures. However, if they were handed the missile launcher by Russia directly, that is just one more bit of evidence pointing to Russia's involvement. Ditto if the guy actually firing the missile turns out to have been a Russian tech "volunteering".
Quote from: Agelastus on July 23, 2014, 07:58:48 AM
You don't?
If the missile was originally Ukrainian then the Russians have no direct responsibility and increasing sanctions due to the shootdown is unjustified.*
If the missile was originally Russian then they do have direct responsibility and increasing sanctions is justified and neccessary.
Had you asked me yesterday I would have said that the missile was 99% likely to have been one the Rebels siezed from the Ukrainian arsenal. Today, assuming the report alluded to above about Buks being seen crossing the border into Russia is accurate, I'd probably say that it's now 50/50 or worse.**
*In fact in this case there'd be a good argument that the Ukraine owed financial compensation for the deaths of the passengers rather than Russia due to their not adequately securing the weapon used.
**which surprises me assuming the doom-sayers who see Russia's end-game as being direct military intervention are correct. It's one of the stupider things I can imagine doing giving SAMs to amateurs when I expect to be sending my own planes into the area in a few weeks or months time.
Since Grumbler and I are in agreement here, I don't think he'll object if I answer for him. These aren't actually amateurs. They are trained soldiers. A machine like this is not something a militia man can just find, read the manual and use. It requires specific training of a team of soldiers. Ukraine has already repatriate the bodies of dead "rebels" back to Russia. If a Russian soldiers kills someone with a weapon that was issued to them, one they looted, or one they bought by themselves is immaterial. The guilt falls on Russia.
Just playing devil's advocate here, there could theoretically be pro-Russian separatists who had experience with SA-11s during prior service in the Ukrainian army. Or possibly a private Russian citizen with prior SA-11 experience sneaked across the border on his own accord to help man the captured equipment.
Now I think we know what most likely happened, but how to prove it?
FOr that matter, there is even a difference between "Hey, here is a SA-11 system, the people to operate it, and some training in how to use it" and "What's that? You captured a SA-11 from your oppressors? Well done! Here is an instruction manual. Play responsibly!". At least, there is a huge political difference.
Quote from: Norgy on July 23, 2014, 06:48:51 AM
Apparently, two Ukrainian fighter planes have been shot down just now.
I guess that makes 4 Air Malaysia airliners lost in the past few months. :(
Agelastus/derspiess/Berkut: distinction without a difference as I see it.
It matters only to the extent one elects to ignore the strings connecting the puppet to the master's hand.
Or as a common law lawyer might say: respondeat superior.
Quote from: Berkut on July 23, 2014, 10:16:54 AM
FOr that matter, there is even a difference between "Hey, here is a SA-11 system, the people to operate it, and some training in how to use it" and "What's that? You captured a SA-11 from your oppressors? Well done! Here is an instruction manual. Play responsibly!". At least, there is a huge political difference.
There are some differences in how the situation came about and a bit in intent, but when considering the magnitude of the consequences, the degree of difference in the two scenarios fade to insignificance to me.
If the neighbour's young kid shot someone, I don't think there's much difference in culpability between the adult who gave them the gun vs. the adult who found them with the gun and then taught them how to turn the safety off, how to grip it, how to aim it, and then left them to have fun with their new toy.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2014, 12:22:18 PM
Agelastus/derspiess/Berkut: distinction without a difference as I see it.
It matters only to the extent one elects to ignore the strings connecting the puppet to the master's hand.
Or as a common law lawyer might say: respondeat superior.
The difference is political: having Russia be the direct supplier of the missile demonstrates those "strings" in a manner obvious to anyone. Same if it turns out the tech doing the shooting was actually a Russian special forces "volunteering".
I agree that as far as moral or legal culpability goes, it makes no difference.
Quote from: Berkut on July 22, 2014, 01:51:22 PM
What is an appropriate response from the West if the above is what happened? More sanctions against Russia?
For the West that would be very appropriate.
For the Dutch an appropriate answer would be a DOW against Russia with the dispatch of an expeditionary force to the Donetsk region to kill or capture all the Russian astroturf rebels.
Very moving return of the bodies today. Especially the things that weren't shown, such as the families being allowed to spend some time in the aircraft. Empty highways, windmills stopped in the mourning position.
Holland at its best. :(
What is the windmill mourning position?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 23, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
What is the windmill mourning position?
1 Celebration
2 Mourning
3 Rest
4 Extended rest
5 Warning/emergency
6 Festive
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmoleneducatief.nl%2Fupload%2Fmolentaal_klein.jpg&hash=1dea9112eff97bc2f70b234cb5885acad69b19a6)
http://www.corriere.it/esteri/14_luglio_22/cosi-stato-colpito-l-aereo-0a7e5f9e-115f-11e4-affb-3320a03d21e8.shtml
Rebel leader admits to downing the plane, says they acted on instructions from superiors. Apparently they were told that a plane full of fascists from Kiev was inbound.
Well, if there were reports that the plane was full of libertarians, you can hardly blame them.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 23, 2014, 09:51:54 AM
Since Grumbler and I are in agreement here, I don't think he'll object if I answer for him. These aren't actually amateurs. They are trained soldiers. A machine like this is not something a militia man can just find, read the manual and use. It requires specific training of a team of soldiers. Ukraine has already repatriate the bodies of dead "rebels" back to Russia. If a Russian soldiers kills someone with a weapon that was issued to them, one they looted, or one they bought by themselves is immaterial. The guilt falls on Russia.
Since "smoking gun" proof still hasn't been produced that Russian soldiers are on "detached duty" on government orders in the Ukraine (it's believed, and is almost certainly true, but if any of the intelligence services have definitive proof they haven't published it. The Ukraine repatriating bodies to Russia when it has no protocols to exchange the dead with the rebels is not proof, not when there's propaganda value in sending them to Russia even if they are natives of the Donetsk region.)
We do not know that the weapon was Russian.
Since various models of the Buk have been around for decades and there are considerable numbers of ex-soldiers of Russian ethnicity in the Donetsk region we don't even know that it was a Russian or Ukrainian who fired it. Nor do we even know if "advisors" were there.
The difference does matter; in fact, politically it's very important.
------------------------------------------
And to Minsky, and with the proviso that I am in no way arguing that the primary responsibility for the shootdown doesn't lie with the rebels but am merely contemplating where the compensation that seems to accompany shoot-downs of airliners has to come from...
:hmm:
So if this was the United Kingdom, if a bunch of Welsh Nationalists who were former soldiers siezed an anti-aircraft missile and then used said missile to shoot down an airliner the British government, as the owner with the duty to safeguard said missile and prevent its misuse, would have no responsibility in the matter? No moral responsibility? No legal responsibility?
How...novel...
[My apologies to any Welsh Nationalists for the example used; I in no way consider you to be similar to or equivalent to the Russian Nationalists in the Donetsk region.]
Quote from: Berkut on July 23, 2014, 02:57:47 PM
Well, if there were reports that the plane was full of libertarians, you can hardly blame them.
Out of place in this thread, but given recent discussions...
:lol:
The proposition that the victim of plunder and theft bears legal and moral responsibility for the thief's attempt to use the plundered items in an act of violence aimed against the victim is one that I have a hard time agreeing with.
But Mono told me this was the Ukraine, not Latin America, Africa or Asia, so there was no possibility of looting the scene.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2014, 03:40:18 PM
The proposition that the victim of plunder and theft bears legal and moral responsibility for the thief's attempt to use the plundered items in an act of violence aimed against the victim is one that I have a hard time agreeing with.
It would contribute to the defense of the Russian government though. And also contribute to the argument that (the) Ukraine is a failed state.
Heard on BBC/NPR that the European Bank for Reconstruction & Development has ceased all lending in Russia, and that the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund is "studying" divesting from Russia.
Good.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 23, 2014, 05:07:49 PM
It would contribute to the defense of the Russian government though. And also contribute to the argument that (the) Ukraine is a failed state.
I honestly can't see how this would be a defense of Russia in any relevant respect
To the extent that Ukraine can be said to have "failed" in this respect it is a direct result of Russian subversion targeted to achieve that exact result.
It's not exculpatory for Russia, it is incriminating
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2014, 09:41:54 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 23, 2014, 05:07:49 PM
It would contribute to the defense of the Russian government though. And also contribute to the argument that (the) Ukraine is a failed state.
I honestly can't see how this would be a defense of Russia in any relevant respect
To the extent that Ukraine can be said to have "failed" in this respect it is a direct result of Russian subversion targeted to achieve that exact result.
It's not exculpatory for Russia, it is incriminating
I don't think we have a shortage of people in the west that admire or at least take the side of Putin in broader Ukraine situation. You may see the situation as Russia fomenting trouble in the eastern ukraine, and supporting separatists there to the extent the Ukrainian government can not assert control. Out of this chaos some nutjobs shot down a plane, almost certainly with either direct or indirect russian assistance.
That is probably reality, but a lot of people see the situation as the Russian minority standing up for themselves in Eastern Ukraine. Russian support merely offsets the support the west gives Ukraine, which is a failed state unable to control its own territory and thus not really worth our efforts. The Russian minority capturing military equipment from Ukraine and using it to accidentally shoot down an airliner could be seen as just a symptom of how failed Ukraine is, and haven't we had enough trying to fix failed states?
I don't agree with the view in the second paragraph, but considering that most people in the west don't care about this stuff at all, some have the view of the second paragraph, and some don't want sanctions for economic reasons, it really does complicate the matter of coordination real sanctions against Russia.
The Russian minority has been in the eastern Ukraine since the Soviet breakup. The same people were there for years of rule under other pro-Western governments and nothing vaguely like this happened. This is a well orchestrated campaign only now that the tuba player has been a bit too enthusiastic and killed off part of the audience the conductor wants to pretend he was never in the concert hall.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2014, 10:24:22 PM
The Russian minority has been in the eastern Ukraine since the Soviet breakup. The same people were there for years of rule under other pro-Western governments and nothing vaguely like this happened. This is a well orchestrated campaign only now that the tuba player has been a bit too enthusiastic and killed off part of the audience the conductor wants to pretend he was never in the concert hall.
I'm convinced.
Now go to the comment sections of the guardian, yahoo, etc. and convince the others. :)
Fortunately, people who post crazy shit in the comments section aren't driving European foreign policy, though you might make that mistake sometimes.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2014, 10:24:22 PM
The Russian minority has been in the eastern Ukraine since the Soviet breakup. The same people were there for years of rule under other pro-Western governments and nothing vaguely like this happened. This is a well orchestrated campaign only now that the tuba player has been a bit too enthusiastic and killed off part of the audience the conductor wants to pretend he was never in the concert hall.
Agreed. This is mainly Russia's, or more accurately Putin's doing. Many of the "locals" are Russian troops or spec ops. Whole thing being orchestrated by Putin and he was doing a good job of it, except for the airline shoot down which reflects on him/Russia as they supply the weapons, train the rebels or have some of their own troops operating the weapons given how long it takes to train on those things.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/24/us-ukraine-crisis-parliament-idUSKBN0FT14U20140724
QuoteUkrainian prime minister quits, parties force new election
(Reuters) - Ukraine's prime minister tendered his resignation on Thursday, berating parliament for failing to pass legislation to take control over an increasingly precarious energy situation and to increase army financing.
Earlier on Thursday, two parties quit the government coalition, forcing new elections to a parliament whose make-up has not changed since before the toppling of pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovich in February.
His successor, President Petro Poroshenko, supported the move, which one politician said would clear "Moscow agents" from the chamber.
Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk's resignation could leave a hole at the heart of decision-making as Ukraine struggles to fund a war with pro-Russian rebels in its east and deals with the aftermath of a plane crash that killed 298 people.
The usually mild-mannered Yatseniuk bellowed at politicians who had failed to pass a law to allow a liberalization of control over Ukraine's pipeline system.
He said politicians risked losing the hearts and minds of Ukrainians who had protested for months in the "Maidan" demonstrations in favor of joining Europe and against Yanukovich.
"History will not forgive us," he told parliament.
"Millions of people made this revolution. We did not take the European choice but the 'heavenly hundred' and thousands of other Ukrainians did," he said, referring to those killed, mainly by sniper fire, during the protests.
Yatseniuk, who has been central to talks with the European Union and the United States, cannot leave office immediately, political analysts said, because he is obliged to continue his duties before a new prime minister and government are installed.
But his impassioned speech underlined the frustration of many in Ukraine that change in the higher echelons of power was taking too much time.
"FULL RESET"
Morale has also sunk in Kiev since the downing of a Malaysian airliner in rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine last week, even though Ukrainian forces are making headway in the military campaign against the separatists.
Poroshenko welcomed the decision by the nationalist party Svoboda and the Udar (Punch) party of former boxing champion Vitaly Klitschko to withdraw from the majority coalition in parliament.
"Society wants a full reset of state authorities," Poroshenko said in a statement, adding that the move showed that those who decided to quit the coalition were following the will of the people.
Politicians and pro-European activists have complained that while Ukraine has a new president, it has yet to elect a new parliament since the toppling of Yanukovich in February, and accuse his supporters of hampering its work.
Yatseniuk said that by blocking legislation, like a bill to allow consortiums with European or U.S. companies to operate Ukraine's ageing gas distribution system and storage facilities, parliament was putting Ukraine's future at risk.
By not tackling budget spending, it was also putting the lives of Ukraine's soldiers in jeopardy, he said.
"It's unacceptable that because laws have not been passed, we now have no means with which to pay soldiers, doctors, police, we have no fuel for armored vehicles, and no way of freeing ourselves from dependence on Russian gas," he said.
"Those people who are sitting there under fire, can we just think of them?"
Just saw that some dutch mayor said that a daughter of putin living in the netherlands should be kicked out of the country. Now he is apologizing for saying that. If that is true, :rolleyes:.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 24, 2014, 02:48:43 PM
Just saw that some dutch mayor said that a daughter of putin living in the netherlands should be kicked out of the country. Now he is apologizing for saying that. If that is true, :rolleyes:.
That wasn't smart of him. Putin has zero tolerance for disclosures about anything that has to do with his daughters, including their location. I'd walk around with Geiger counter if I were that mayor.
Quote from: DGuller on July 24, 2014, 03:13:18 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 24, 2014, 02:48:43 PM
Just saw that some dutch mayor said that a daughter of putin living in the netherlands should be kicked out of the country. Now he is apologizing for saying that. If that is true, :rolleyes:.
That wasn't smart of him. Putin has zero tolerance for disclosures about anything that has to do with his daughters, including their location. I'd walk around with Geiger counter if I were that mayor.
He should hire Marti to tackle anyone who comes near him with an umbrella.
I would expect she took a private jet to Moscow right after people started posting her private address to go and protest there.
Quote from: Zanza on July 24, 2014, 04:03:31 PM
I would expect she took a private jet to Moscow right after people started posting her private address to go and protest there.
How ironical, should it get shot down.
Quote from: Zanza on July 24, 2014, 04:03:31 PM
I would expect she took a private jet to Moscow right after people started posting her private address to go and protest there.
:lol: Having your children reside in Russia is regarded as child abuse among Russian oligarchs.
Quote from: DGuller on July 24, 2014, 03:13:18 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 24, 2014, 02:48:43 PM
Just saw that some dutch mayor said that a daughter of putin living in the netherlands should be kicked out of the country. Now he is apologizing for saying that. If that is true, :rolleyes:.
That wasn't smart of him. Putin has zero tolerance for disclosures about anything that has to do with his daughters, including their location. I'd walk around with Geiger counter if I were that mayor.
It had been public knowledge long before the crash. But yeah, pretty dumb thing to say.
It is interesting that people in Europe just sort of accept the idea that Putin might just assassinate them one day.
Putin may assassinate you one day. He has the reach.
In celebration of the eminent Russian invasion of Ukraine,
What is it? Six key features will give you the base model and variant.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1-azcdn.newser.com%2Fimage%2F987054-0-20140724184834.jpeg&hash=b7bc1c07e1f76065617feaa547de41e8ffea7895)
[spoiler]try w/o googling [/spoiler]
Extra credit. Hint: It's Russian of course.
Four key features will give you the base model. One feature will give you the variant
There's been reports in several media here that Putin might be trapped in the conservative-nationalist propaganda machinery that he ticked off early this year with the annexation of the Crimea. It seems, some pundits are calling for a harder stance and more support for the rebels, as well as removing the influence of oligarchs on the Kremlin with a "true renewal" of Russian greatness.
Quote from: Berkut on July 23, 2014, 02:57:47 PM
Well, if there were reports that the plane was full of libertarians, you can hardly blame them.
Unfortunately it was full of Aids researchers and children instead. :(
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28476153
QuoteUS says evidence shows Russia fired artillery into Ukraine
The US says it has evidence that Russia has fired artillery across the border targeting Ukrainian military positions.
Russia also intends "to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers" to pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine, the state department said.
Russia has frequently denied sending any rocket launchers into Ukraine.
The US comment comes a week after Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine, with the rebels widely accused of shooting it down.
Multinational efforts to find the cause of the crash are under way, led by the Netherlands which lost 193 of its citizens. All 298 people on board the flight died in the crash.
Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte has announced 40 unarmed military police are being sent to the crash site as part of efforts to find the last MH17 victims.
He said there would be more people working on the crash site and his government was looking at ways to make it more secure.
'Human intelligence'
The US, which has repeatedly accused Russia of fuelling separatist sentiment in eastern Ukraine, says it believes that rebels shot down flight MH17 with a Russian-provided SA-11 Buk surface-to-air missile, probably by mistake.
Leading rebels in eastern Ukraine have given conflicting accounts of whether they had control of a Buk launcher at the time the plane was downed.
State department spokeswoman Marie Harf told reporters on Thursday the US had evidence derived from "some intelligence information" showing Russia firing artillery into eastern Ukraine.
She said the US would not provide further details so as not to compromise sources and methods of intelligence collection
Earlier on Thursday, the EU said it was adding 15 people and 18 entities to the list of sanctions against Russia and Ukraine, in a move condemned by Russia's ambassador to the UK as "illegal, unreasonable and counterproductive".
It comes as two more planes carrying the remains of some of the passengers and crew of flight MH17 arrived in the Netherlands for forensic identification at a barracks south of the Dutch city of Hilversum.
Difficult access
Dutch investigators have faced difficulties gaining access to the rebel-controlled crash site in eastern Ukraine, amid continuing fighting there.
Some OSCE monitors and investigators who did manage to visit the site say there is a discrepancy in the numbers of bodies counted on the ground.
With remains still being found one week on, experts warn it could be months before all victims are identified.
Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott has proposed a multinational force to secure the crash site mounted by countries most affected by the disaster, namely Australia, the Netherlands and Malaysia.
Foreign Minister Julie Bishop and her Dutch counterpart, Frans Timmermans, are in Kiev to try to secure agreement from the Ukrainian authorities for a Dutch-led police mission at the crash site.
Meanwhile, UK aviation investigators have managed to successfully extract data from the plane's two black boxes, the Dutch Safety Board, which is leading the investigation, said on Thursday.
They are looking for voice recordings of the last moments of the plane's flight, as well as potentially vital information from after any missile strike, which could yield clues about the impact and effect of the strike.
Details of further EU sanctions on Russia and Ukraine are expected to come to light on Friday, with talks on stepped-up action - which may include a ban on buying debt or stock issued by Russia's largest banks - also due to continue.
In other developments on Thursday:
Ukrainian PM Arseniy Yatsenyuk resigned in protest at the disbanding of the ruling parliamentary coalition, paving the way for new elections. It is not yet clear if his resignation will be accepted by parliament
CNN says one of its freelance journalists, Anton Skiba, was abducted by armed pro-Russia separatists in Donetsk on Tuesday and has appealed for his release
Overall rebel military commander Igor Strelkov says in statement he has withdrawn his fighters from the outskirts of Donetsk
The fighting in eastern Ukraine erupted in April and is believed to have claimed more than 1,000 lives.
Luckily Europe is just bending down for the soap at the moment, so we are not risking starting WW3 at the 100th anniversary of the first one. I don't think we will manage to wait with it until the 100th anniversary of the second one going at this rate, but hey.
What's Russia's game with shelling Ukrainian forces from Russian territory? Are they just trying to even the odds, or are they provoking Ukraine into attacking the Russian territory?
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2014, 05:46:43 AM
What's Russia's game with shelling Ukrainian forces from Russian territory? Are they just trying to even the odds, or are they provoking Ukraine into attacking the Russian territory?
Who knows. I thought Putin gave up on these guys, then you have news like this. And I am quite sure is true, because the US would not claim to have proof for stuff like this otherwise - I think they would be more than happy to let this issue go away quietly as the Ukrainian army destroys its own cities to get rid of the rebels.
I guess it does depend on how much Putin can still control this fascist uproar he has created in his country. These things tend to slip out of control and then we are going to be in big trouble.
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2014, 05:46:43 AM
What's Russia's game with shelling Ukrainian forces from Russian territory? Are they just trying to even the odds, or are they provoking Ukraine into attacking the Russian territory?
I assume it is the national equivalent of a wild west villian making his victim "dance" by shooting at the bar-room floor.
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2014, 05:46:43 AM
What's Russia's game with shelling Ukrainian forces from Russian territory? Are they just trying to even the odds, or are they provoking Ukraine into attacking the Russian territory?
Probably. Ukraine has been firing back & apparently some civilians were hit last week.
Quote from: Tamas on July 25, 2014, 06:03:59 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2014, 05:46:43 AM
What's Russia's game with shelling Ukrainian forces from Russian territory? Are they just trying to even the odds, or are they provoking Ukraine into attacking the Russian territory?
Who knows. I thought Putin gave up on these guys, then you have news like this. And I am quite sure is true, because the US would not claim to have proof for stuff like this otherwise - I think they would be more than happy to let this issue go away quietly as the Ukrainian army destroys its own cities to get rid of the rebels.
One strategy might be to let the rebels split away after their cities are reduced to rubble.
Russian media have reported Ukrainian shells hitting Russian territory for a while now, so this might be "retaliation."
Also:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/186efe6c-13e7-11e4-b46f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz38UQWxaOk
QuoteSlavyansk's grave reveals Ukraine's wounds
Police are exhuming the bodies of 14 people – 13 men and 1 woman – thought to be victims of the pro-Russian rebels who occupied the city for nearly three months. The site is one of a number of mass graves dotted in and around Slavyansk, a town of 140,000 souls that was until recently the militants' main stronghold and a focal point of the war in eastern Ukraine.
Since rebel forces left Slavyansk earlier this month, normal life has gradually returned. Water, gas and electricity are being restored, and residents who fled the daily bombardments are coming home.
But the mass grave – and the victims within – suggest the war's dark legacy will long endure in this nondescript industrial town, where the population has been left dumbfounded by the violence.
Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, came from Kiev to watch the bodies being exhumed. Speaking to reporters, he placed the blame for Slavyansk's strife firmly on the shoulders of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
"The people buried here are victims of Putin's terrorism," he said. "If he hadn't armed these rebels, and filled their heads with hatred and propaganda, they wouldn't have killed anyone."
The bodies have not been identified. Authorities say four of them were congregants of a small Protestant church in Slavyansk, abducted by militants after a Sunday morning service on June 8. Police say they were falsely accused of helping the Ukrainian army and shot the following day.
Human rights groups have accused the rebels of systematically kidnapping, beating up and sometimes torturing activists and residents suspected of supporting Kiev. Some are believed to have been summarily executed.
The four Protestant men's bodies ended up in the city morgue. But with Slavyansk's electricity supply knocked out by shelling, and the morgue's refrigeration system broken down, they were later taken out and buried in an unmarked grave near the town's Jewish cemetery, say authorities.
On Thursday, the site was covered with wreaths made out of red and yellow roses, and large photographs of the four dead men – two of whom were sons of the local Protestant pastor. A relative, Nikolai Dombrovsky, stood by, watching the excavation work. "The people who did this were drug addicts, people who never worked, who were full of envy," he said. "They are animals."
Slavyansk is now a city of deep divisions. Though many residents have welcomed the return of Ukrainian rule, others nurture a deep mistrust of Kiev. The resentment that prompted some to take up arms has not gone away.
Many rebel leaders, including Igor Girkin, knows as Strelkov, the self-styled defence minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, are Russian. But many of the rank-and-file were local people. Some have disappeared, others simply took off their military garb and melted into the civilian population.
"I know one man who used to stand on the barricades – he's now selling fish in the market," says Vitaly Kiashko, Slavyansk council's chief architect.
Some are eager to settle scores. Boxes have appeared in public places for local people to drop anonymous denunciations of suspected rebels.
Meanwhile, the city's institutions are being systematically purged of rebel sympathisers. An investigative commission from Kiev is subjecting all Slavyansk's policemen to a lie-detector test, to establish whether they collaborated with the militants.
Igor Rybalchenko, Slavyansk's acting chief of police, said the eight policemen who openly sided with the separatists have disappeared. But there may well be others. "Some of them will be fired, some will be prosecuted," he says.
As law and order is re-established, the full extent of the anarchy that prevailed when Slavyansk was under rebel rule is becoming clear. Mr Rybalchenko's force is receiving 70-90 statements a day from victims of crime. "It's mainly robbery, theft, stolen cars, and damage to property during the shelling," he says.
Mr Kiashko, the architect, says all those fought and killed for the rebel cause must go to prison. "Even those who praised President Putin and gave out leaflets supporting independence for Donetsk should be punished," he says.
"They should be given a shovel, a broom and a wheelbarrow," he says, "and told to clear up the mess they made."
Quote from: 11B4V on July 25, 2014, 01:21:45 AM
In celebration of the eminent Russian invasion of Ukraine,
What is it? Six key features will give you the base model and variant.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1-azcdn.newser.com%2Fimage%2F987054-0-20140724184834.jpeg&hash=b7bc1c07e1f76065617feaa547de41e8ffea7895)
[spoiler]try w/o googling [/spoiler]
D'uh. It's a T-34--it says so right on it, except the silly Russians have the number off by 2.
;)
Quote from: Razgovory on July 24, 2014, 07:04:57 PM
It is interesting that people in Europe just sort of accept the idea that Putin might just assassinate them one day.
Well, we tend to be cautious around umbrellas for a reason, you know?
Quote from: 11B4V on July 25, 2014, 01:21:45 AM
In celebration of the eminent Russian invasion of Ukraine,
What is it? Six key features will give you the base model and variant.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1-azcdn.newser.com%2Fimage%2F987054-0-20140724184834.jpeg&hash=b7bc1c07e1f76065617feaa547de41e8ffea7895)
[spoiler]try w/o googling [/spoiler]
T-72M?
Lulz, look at that reactive armor. WHO WANTS BROWNIES
Quote from: dps on July 25, 2014, 09:41:41 AM
D'uh. It's a T-34--it says so right on it, except the silly Russians have the number off by 2.
Russians never were good at fit and finish with their tanks.
Can you set off reactive armor with machine gun fire? :hmm:
Judging from the reaction of one of the guys on the tank, it seems like it is ineffective in repelling bird poop.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 25, 2014, 09:48:38 AM
Judging from the reaction of one of the guys on the tank, it seems like it is ineffective in repelling bird poop.
:lol:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 25, 2014, 09:48:38 AM
Judging from the reaction of one of the guys on the tank, it seems like it is ineffective in repelling bird poop.
CAS rocks. Close Air Shitting
Quote from: Agelastus on July 25, 2014, 09:43:30 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 25, 2014, 01:21:45 AM
In celebration of the eminent Russian invasion of Ukraine,
What is it? Six key features will give you the base model and variant.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1-azcdn.newser.com%2Fimage%2F987054-0-20140724184834.jpeg&hash=b7bc1c07e1f76065617feaa547de41e8ffea7895)
[spoiler]try w/o googling [/spoiler]
T-72M?
I'm gonna guess some sort of modernized T-64.
Quote from: derspiess on July 25, 2014, 10:39:40 AM
Quote from: Agelastus on July 25, 2014, 09:43:30 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 25, 2014, 01:21:45 AM
In celebration of the eminent Russian invasion of Ukraine,
What is it? Six key features will give you the base model and variant.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1-azcdn.newser.com%2Fimage%2F987054-0-20140724184834.jpeg&hash=b7bc1c07e1f76065617feaa547de41e8ffea7895)
[spoiler]try w/o googling [/spoiler]
T-72M?
I'm gonna guess some sort of modernized T-64.
My best thought, without cheating, is T-80BV, but I don't think that model has reactive armor. Its definitely in the T-64/T-80 family, though. The hull and turret have that wide, thin, squashed look.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on July 25, 2014, 11:26:59 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 25, 2014, 10:39:40 AM
Quote from: Agelastus on July 25, 2014, 09:43:30 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 25, 2014, 01:21:45 AM
In celebration of the eminent Russian invasion of Ukraine,
What is it? Six key features will give you the base model and variant.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1-azcdn.newser.com%2Fimage%2F987054-0-20140724184834.jpeg&hash=b7bc1c07e1f76065617feaa547de41e8ffea7895)
[spoiler]try w/o googling [/spoiler]
T-72M?
I'm gonna guess some sort of modernized T-64.
My best thought, without cheating, is T-80BV, but I don't think that model has reactive armor. Its definitely in the T-64/T-80 family, though. The hull and turret have that wide, thin, squashed look.
It's a T-64BV. Actually not very modernized. Those are Kontakt-1 ERA
Quote from: 11B4V on July 25, 2014, 02:07:59 AM
Extra credit. Hint: It's Russian of course.
Four key features will give you the base model. One feature will give you the variant
and this?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbinaryapi.ap.org%2F8153910330594e6f9f63670e518110b0%2F460x.jpg&hash=e50beb86b06f9912213a0fb00b74d139f1527ba2)
Its a tracked vehicle variant known as a tank. :smarty:
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 25, 2014, 11:53:10 AM
Its a tracked vehicle variant known as a tank. :smarty:
:)
There you go.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10404270_10204144958615410_8403134689828494920_n.jpg)
I've always wondered about reactive armor - is it dangerous in general?
I mean, it is pretty much explosives attached all over the tank, right?
Do they ever go off when you would not want them to?
Quote from: Berkut on July 25, 2014, 11:56:35 AM
I've always wondered about reactive armor - is it dangerous in general?
I mean, it is pretty much explosives attached all over the tank, right?
Do they ever go off when you would not want them to?
I dont believe so. ERA is passive not active. However I would not want to be near the tank when it took a hit and that shit explodes.
The Arena and older Drozd system is an example of an active protection system
Do .50 cal rounds set off reactive armor or is that just a fun myth?
Quote from: 11B4V on July 25, 2014, 11:54:30 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 25, 2014, 11:53:10 AM
Its a tracked vehicle variant known as a tank. :smarty:
:)
There you go.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10404270_10204144958615410_8403134689828494920_n.jpg)
Huh, I was going to say T-90. Though, in hindsight, I think the T-90 has a larger turret.
Also, I want to run home and play Wargame: European Escalation now. :blush:
I figured it was T-64, simply because he asked what it was. If it was the more common T-72 he probably wouldn't have. I don't even know if they have T-80s in front line service anymore. Truth is almost all post war Soviet MBT look alike.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2014, 12:59:19 PM
I figured it was T-64, simply because he asked what it was. If it was the more common T-72 he probably wouldn't have. I don't even know if they have T-80s in front line service anymore. Truth is almost all post war Soviet MBT look alike.
Only to the layperson.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2014, 12:59:19 PM
I figured it was T-64, simply because he asked what it was. If it was the more common T-72 he probably wouldn't have. I don't even know if they have T-80s in front line service anymore. Truth is almost all post war Soviet MBT look alike.
:D
I said T-72 precisely because I knew there were so few T-80s left in service.
Am I right in remembering that the T-80's main production plant was in the Ukraine?
No, they look alike to everyone. You can look at American M60 and a M1 and immediately see the difference. Soviet tanks have subtle differences such as the presence of a fume extractor or spacing of road wheels.
Quote from: Agelastus on July 25, 2014, 01:39:49 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2014, 12:59:19 PM
I figured it was T-64, simply because he asked what it was. If it was the more common T-72 he probably wouldn't have. I don't even know if they have T-80s in front line service anymore. Truth is almost all post war Soviet MBT look alike.
:D
I said T-72 precisely because I knew there were so few T-80s left in service.
Am I right in remembering that the T-80's main production plant was in the Ukraine?
Don't know, but it's entirely possible. I think the Ukrainians use T-80s more then Russians do. Despite all the talk of the differences between the two, they aren't that much difference in effectiveness in the field, which may be why the Russians don't use them much. They were more expensive to operate.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on July 25, 2014, 12:45:28 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 25, 2014, 11:54:30 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 25, 2014, 11:53:10 AM
Its a tracked vehicle variant known as a tank. :smarty:
:)
There you go.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10404270_10204144958615410_8403134689828494920_n.jpg)
Huh, I was going to say T-90. Though, in hindsight, I think the T-90 has a larger turret.
Also, I want to run home and play Wargame: European Escalation now. :blush:
T-90 would be a good guess. The T-90a also has the exhaust at the left rear, but it is smaller than the base T-72 model. Also opposite the MG is another minor feature.
QuoteUkraine conflict: Russia accuses US of 'smear campaign'
Ukrainian troops on patrol in the Lugansk region - 25 July 2014
Fighting in eastern Ukraine is ongoing and the West accuses Russia of aiding the separatist rebels there
Russia has accused the US of launching a "smear campaign" over its alleged involvement in the conflict in Ukraine.
The foreign ministry in Moscow said on Friday it rejects "unfounded public insinuations" from the US government.
But the Pentagon says it believes the movement of Russian heavy-calibre artillery systems across the border into Ukraine is "imminent."
The row comes as more bodies of victims from flight MH17, which crashed in Ukraine, arrived in the Netherlands.
Separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine have been accused of shooting down the Malaysia Airlines plane.
The US says it believes rebels shot down the passenger jet with a Russian-provided SA-11 Buk surface-to-air missile, probably by mistake.
Russia has frequently denied sending heavy weapons into Ukraine but rebel leaders have given conflicting accounts of whether they had control of a Buk launcher at the time the plane was downed.
A piece of debris from flight MH17 at the crash site in Grabove - 25 July 2014
The US has toughened its rhetoric towards Russia since flight MH17 was downed in eastern Ukraine
'Anti-Russian cliches'
The Pentagon said on Friday that it had evidence to suggest Russia is preparing to transfer more rocket launcher systems to the rebels.
"We have indications that the Russians intend to supply heavier and more sophisticated multiple-launch rocket systems in the very near future," Col Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman, said on Friday.
On Thursday, a US state department spokesperson said there was also evidence Russian troops were firing on Ukrainian soldiers from within Russia.
But in a statement, Russia's foreign ministry said the US was pushing "anti-Russian cliches" to protect their allies in Kiev by obscuring the "real reasons for events in Ukraine".
The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Moscow says that amid all the accusations of war-mongering, it seems Russia is keen to stress that so far, it has actually shown restraint.
A statement released on Friday said that those targeted are "responsible for action against Ukraine's territorial integrity".
The fighting in eastern Ukraine erupted in April and is believed to have claimed more than 1,000 lives.
On Friday, the Ukrainian army said its troops had come under artillery fire from the Russian side of the border overnight and were attacked by rebels in several areas in the east.
The US has repeatedly accused Russia of fuelling separatist sentiment in eastern Ukraine and has toughened its rhetoric since flight MH17 was downed.
'Spy or a big one?'
Ukraine officials published the latest in a series of audio recordings on Friday that appears to be a conversation between rebels, minutes before MH17 crashed.
In the recording, which has not been independently verified, a rebel tells a commander that a "bird had flown" in his direction.
When the commander asks if it was a "spy or a big one?" the rebel says that he cannot tell because it is flying too high.
About 200 bodies were recovered from the crash site in eastern Ukraine and are being flown to the Netherlands, where forensic experts are working on identifying them.
The Dutch and Australian foreign ministers are negotiating with Ukrainian officials in Kiev to send police to the crash site, which is controlled by the rebels.
They hope that such a deployment would allow experts, who have faced difficulties gaining access to the site, to proceed with the investigation amid continuing fighting in the region.
So... John Kerry is pushing:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nuttyhistory.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F2%2F1%2F5%2F12150034%2F5506338_orig.jpg&hash=d53dbf0515a04cadbf539082812ab63f7dcd9405)
:unsure:
Sanctions on Russia - described as "sweeping": http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/economic-sanctions-russia-eu-governments
Standing out toe me: European capital markets to be closed to Russian banks; and no export of equipment for Russia's oil industry.
Thoughts?
Also, interview with the leader of the group who probably shot the plane down: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/-sp-ukraine-rebel-igor-bezler-interview-demon
He seems a pretty volatile character.
I have a sneaking suspicion those sanctions are more gestural than substantive. Why only state-owned banks? Obviously that leaves untouched the oligarch wealth piled up in London and generating revenue. BP operates in Russia (I assume other western companies do as well). If they transport equipment will it be deemed an "export?"
Quote from: Jacob on July 29, 2014, 05:39:57 PM
Also, interview with the leader of the group who probably shot the plane down: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/-sp-ukraine-rebel-igor-bezler-interview-demon (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/-sp-ukraine-rebel-igor-bezler-interview-demon)
He seems a pretty volatile character.
Quote"Don't think for one minute I will hesitate to have you shot," he yelled at the pair of us.
I think that's just how they talk to each other in Russia.
Will we have a war over this I wonder? A limited nuclear exchange perhaps? With some medium scale ground movements?
G.
No. No. No.
Quote from: Grallon on July 29, 2014, 07:58:46 PM
Will we have a war over this I wonder? A limited nuclear exchange perhaps? With some medium scale ground movements?
G.
Just when you think he couldn't possibly be a more wizened shrew. :yuk:
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: Grallon on July 29, 2014, 07:58:46 PM
Will we have a war over this I wonder? A limited nuclear exchange perhaps? With some medium scale ground movements?
G.
Just when you think he couldn't possibly be a more wizened shrew. :yuk:
I think he's had much more egregious displays of sardonicism in the past. This one almost works as a joke.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on July 29, 2014, 09:56:25 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 29, 2014, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: Grallon on July 29, 2014, 07:58:46 PM
Will we have a war over this I wonder? A limited nuclear exchange perhaps? With some medium scale ground movements?
G.
Just when you think he couldn't possibly be a more wizened shrew. :yuk:
I think he's had much more egregious displays of sardonicism in the past. This one almost works as a joke.
I was young then and I don't recall.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 29, 2014, 06:05:18 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion those sanctions are more gestural than substantive. Why only state-owned banks? Obviously that leaves untouched the oligarch wealth piled up in London and generating revenue. BP operates in Russia (I assume other western companies do as well). If they transport equipment will it be deemed an "export?"
Gazprom, Lukoil, and the other Russian companies have been squeezing BP out. BP, to my knowledge, has no independent operations left in Russia; everything is a joint venture with a Russian company where the Russians are in the driver's seat. Pooty forced BP out of their original operations years ago. In fact, the Russians have been known to summarily revoke the visas of BP execs they don't like.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on July 30, 2014, 09:38:21 AM
Pooty forced BP out of their original operations years ago. In fact, the Russians have been known to summarily revoke the visas of BP execs they don't like.
Huh. It seems that even the russian government is capable of doing the right thing once in a while. :P
Yeah, I think these sanctions will save US companies from themselves, if anything. I have no idea why corporations with a lot of valuable know-how decide that going to Russia is a good idea. They have to know by now that political risks are untenable.
Quote from: DGuller on July 30, 2014, 09:53:11 AM
Yeah, I think these sanctions will save US companies from themselves, if anything. I have no idea why corporations with a lot of valuable know-how decide that going to Russia is a good idea. They have to know by now that political risks are untenable.
ExxonMobil just signed a big JV in Russia...
I'm just so glad I'm not at my old job anymore. We did a significant amount of payments to Ukraine and Russia, and getting payments through was a nightmare on the best of days (Russian banks can be very peculiar in their requirements, including sometimes requiring routing through a state bank to a private bank). Though I wouldn't be surprised if a number of studies weren't just put on hold for the time being.
And the American mothership was already paranoid when we were dealing with sites in Jordan or Egypt ...
Quote from: Syt on July 30, 2014, 11:56:49 AM
I'm just so glad I'm not at my old job anymore. We did a significant amount of payments to Ukraine and Russia, and getting payments through was a nightmare on the best of days (Russian banks can be very peculiar in their requirements, including sometimes requiring routing through a state bank to a private bank). Though I wouldn't be surprised if a number of studies weren't just put on hold for the time being.
Sounds like Princesca's war stories dealing with Chinese customs.
"You filled out this form wrong. Fill it out again and pay $2,000 fine."
*a week later*
"You filled it out right, but forgot to get this authorization we've never told you about before. $5,000 fine!"
That makes me not want to go to China.
Quote from: DGuller on July 30, 2014, 09:53:11 AM
Yeah, I think these sanctions will save US companies from themselves, if anything. I have no idea why corporations with a lot of valuable know-how decide that going to Russia is a good idea. They have to know by now that political risks are untenable.
If we are talking oil majors, pick your geopolitical poison: Nigeria, Venezuela, Libya, Iraq, equatorial Africa, etc. By those standards, the risks with Putin's Russia don't seem so unreasonable.
BP has taken its hits in Russia and may take more. But one could argue that it took its worst political risk by operating into the US Gulf Coast and exposing itself to the US plaintiff's bar.
:face:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 30, 2014, 02:25:36 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 30, 2014, 09:53:11 AM
Yeah, I think these sanctions will save US companies from themselves, if anything. I have no idea why corporations with a lot of valuable know-how decide that going to Russia is a good idea. They have to know by now that political risks are untenable.
If we are talking oil majors, pick your geopolitical poison: Nigeria, Venezuela, Libya, Iraq, equatorial Africa, etc. By those standards, the risks with Putin's Russia don't seem so unreasonable.
BP has taken its hits in Russia and may take more. But one could argue that it took its worst political risk by operating into the US Gulf Coast and exposing itself to the US plaintiff's bar.
Damn I was just going to make a similar post, thought not so eloquently put; at least I saved being ridiculed.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 29, 2014, 06:05:18 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion those sanctions are more gestural than substantive. Why only state-owned banks? Obviously that leaves untouched the oligarch wealth piled up in London and generating revenue. BP operates in Russia (I assume other western companies do as well). If they transport equipment will it be deemed an "export?"
Several major Russian banks have been added to the 'blacklist'. But they're private companies, so like private individuals they have to be specifically targeted. But also there are lots of state-owned banks: two of the biggest four are listed on the LSE, for example.
The EU's view is that this'll hit Russian GDP by about 1.5% this year. The sanctions also had a bit that clearly leaves room to ratchet them up.
I think the real risk (to EU economies and Russia) is if the situation spins out of control, or if they impose retaliatory sanctions.
Edit: A snip from the FT:
QuoteThe impact of the lesser type of sanction works through sentiment. The actual measures in this category have targeted individuals and economically insignificant businesses owned by those individuals. Such measures have created an atmosphere in which Russian companies have found it increasingly difficult and expensive to refinance their foreign debt (totalling $650bn at the end of 2013) and the collapse of Russian issuance in the capital market. This has intensified capital outflow, rouble weakness (resuming now, after a bounce in May-June) and declining domestic investment. Real gross domestic product growth fell below 1 per cent in the first half of 2014 compared to the same period last year and 1.3 per cent last year as a whole.
Pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine have escalated the political turmoil that threatens to tear the country apart
The US already moved up to the second broad category of sanctions on July 16 (the day before the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17). This type of sanctions is designed to squeeze the financial lifeblood out of the Russian economy by banning credit and capital flows to major Russian banks and corporations, starting with Rosneft, Novatek, Vnesheconombank and Gazprombank. The EU is set to follow the US across this Rubicon – with the focus, judging by the European Commission's consultation paper, on cutting off Sberbank, VTB and other state-controlled banks from external funding markets.
Whatever sanctions the EU governments finally agree to impose now and in the future, the US's control of the dollar funding markets gives it the financial power to tip the Russian economy into recession single-handedly. Since the European economy would suffer much more from a slump in Russia than the US, the main significance of the MH17 tragedy in this context is that European governments no longer object to the US using that power, so there will be no transatlantic splits for Russia to exploit. As it turns out, the EU is proving ready not only to endure the effects of serious sanctions passively but to follow the US across the sanctions Rubicon. This will tighten more quickly the financial garrotte around the neck of the Russian economy.
Placing Russia under a financial interdict will have a more powerful longer-term impact than other so-called sectoral sanctions, such as the European Commission's recommended ban on defence equipment and advanced drilling technologies for tight oil and offshore hydrocarbons in the Arctic. The natural Russian response will be to step up import substitution efforts. While this always takes time even in normal conditions, in the absence of easily accessible financing, the challenge will be that much tougher – and perhaps insurmountable in some cases.
It follows that Russia will have to fall back on its domestic savings. The country's strong national balance sheet includes about $160bn in the government's reserve funds that could be used to recapitalise and fund the state banks, which could then refinance the existing foreign debt of non-financial corporations. But with almost $100bn of principal external debt repayments falling due between now and the end of 2015, the sanctions regime will result in these reserves being rapidly depleted – leading in turn to further devaluation, credit rating downgrades and negative growth rates.
Incidentally I've just finished an application for a law firm that's a specialist in helping people and companies who may have issues with sanctions getting around them/out of trouble :blush: :ph34r:
Can someone (by someone I mean Joan) explain to me how the US has legal control over dollar transactions between two other parties?
Because practically engaging in significant dollar transactions either requires dealing with a US bank or branch or dealing with an overseas bank that itself has a correspondent account with a US bank.
One interesting illustration is that under the US code, if an overseas person has forfeitable funds (e.g. proceeds of certain activities illegal in the US) in an overseas bank that has no US branch, the Feds can go and seize an equivalent amount of money from the general correspondent account of the overseas bank. There is another provision of the Code that also allows the Feds to seize money without prior notice and hold it for a period of time before having to prove a legal right to it.
This sort of stuff is super popular overseas . . .
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 30, 2014, 05:48:33 PM
Because practically engaging in significant dollar transactions either requires dealing with a US bank or branch or dealing with an overseas bank that itself has a correspondent account with a US bank.
Why is that?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2014, 06:07:47 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 30, 2014, 05:48:33 PM
Because practically engaging in significant dollar transactions either requires dealing with a US bank or branch or dealing with an overseas bank that itself has a correspondent account with a US bank.
Why is that?
First, because to have secure and liquid access to dollars, you have to be have some access, indirect or direct to the Fed or to the big US money center banks. That is essential for any financial institution engaging in trade finance, since a lot of trade is conducted in US dollars even if there is not a US party and even small deals can involve tens of millions of dollars. It also can be needed for clearing and settlement purposes - every day there are a huge amount of interbank transactions (checks, wire transfers, etc.) that have to be settled; the Fed and the big US banks have created very efficient systems for doing so and thus pretty much every significant bank uses that system, either directly or indirectly via correspondent relationship.
OK, that makes sense. I thought the US had some weird supranational power to regulate 3rd party dollar transactions, but if it ties back to money creation at the Fed that makes a lot more sense.
But to clarify, the US can't do anything about dollar balances already sloshing around overseas, right?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2014, 07:17:14 PM
OK, that makes sense. I thought the US had some weird supranational power to regulate 3rd party dollar transactions, but if it ties back to money creation at the Fed that makes a lot more sense.
But to clarify, the US can't do anything about dollar balances already sloshing around overseas, right?
What it sounded like to me was not directly, no, but since the US can seize "an equivalent amount" from the general correspondent, the odds that the general correspondent won't turn around and claw back the actual funds to cover their own loss are virtually nil.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 30, 2014, 06:53:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2014, 06:07:47 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 30, 2014, 05:48:33 PM
Because practically engaging in significant dollar transactions either requires dealing with a US bank or branch or dealing with an overseas bank that itself has a correspondent account with a US bank.
Why is that?
First, because to have secure and liquid access to dollars, you have to be have some access, indirect or direct to the Fed or to the big US money center banks. That is essential for any financial institution engaging in trade finance, since a lot of trade is conducted in US dollars even if there is not a US party and even small deals can involve tens of millions of dollars. It also can be needed for clearing and settlement purposes - every day there are a huge amount of interbank transactions (checks, wire transfers, etc.) that have to be settled; the Fed and the big US banks have created very efficient systems for doing so and thus pretty much every significant bank uses that system, either directly or indirectly via correspondent relationship.
This.
Our payments to Russia were almost exclusively in USD. The banks would route the money automatically through appropriate correspondence, but every once in a while we'd have a doctor throw a hissy fit because we supposedly used the wrong correspondent bank (we didn't have influence over what bank would be chosen), and having to squeeze info for a Russia-internal correspndence bank as was often required (or card numbers in case of joint accounts) was always a joy. It became even more fun when Scotland took over our payments clearance (not to mention that the accounting software (PeopleSoft) couldn't handle Russia's default 20 digit account numbers).
It didn't help that incoming money from abroad above $6000 or so (i.e. 80% of our payments) wold get frozen on arrival by the finance authorities, and the recipient would then have to provide documentation why he or she receives the money. Mind you, those were doctors, not accountants. Every typo, every wrongly transliterated letter from Cyrillic to Latin could spell doom, meaning the payment was returned (minus horrendous charges) and you had to start new. And our clinical staff in Russia had a habit of having up to three different spellings for the same name n a payment form ...
Quote from: DontSayBanana on July 30, 2014, 08:42:03 PM
What it sounded like to me was not directly, no, but since the US can seize "an equivalent amount" from the general correspondent, the odds that the general correspondent won't turn around and claw back the actual funds to cover their own loss are virtually nil.
Yes, but what usually happens is the Feds don't have to invoke that authority. Typically they can get the foreign banking authorities to cooperate and issue a freeze order that directly applies to the overseas bank; the correspondent seizure power is a backstop in case the furriners don't play ball.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2014, 07:17:14 PM
But to clarify, the US can't do anything about dollar balances already sloshing around overseas, right?
If the balances are in the form of bank balances, then they almost certainly can for the reasons stated - invariably there is a linkage back into the US system.
If the balances are in cash, then it is a different story. Hence the practice of international criminal organizations dealing in large bundles of cash. But there are serious limitations and inconveniences involved in cash-only transactions.
Well, the political situation has caused the WWE to dust off a tried and true gimmick, the "Evil Russian" (or Bulgarian posing as Russian in this case):
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.org%2Fdj5lh1atz%2FRusev.jpg&hash=196b5a4fc706551fd88412c2e09821f5ff24bbca)
Read an article in Harper's a while back about lucha libre, the Mexican wrestling circuit, which is trying to expand in the US. One of the heels, a gringo, has the schtick of yelling at all the kids that they're illegals and he wants to report them all to la migra. And, AFAICT, only the faces wear masks in lucha libre.
So are these sanctions really going to hurt Russia?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2014, 04:06:31 PM
Read an article in Harper's a while back about lucha libre, the Mexican wrestling circuit, which is trying to expand in the US. One of the heels, a gringo, has the schtick of yelling at all the kids that they're illegals and he wants to report them all to la migra. And, AFAICT, only the faces wear masks in lucha libre.
I honestly don't know.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 03, 2014, 05:47:45 PM
So are these sanctions really going to hurt Russia?
Well, Vienna hotels and luxury shops are moaning that they have a big dent in their revenue because Russian rich folk stay home.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2014, 04:06:31 PM
Read an article in Harper's a while back about lucha libre, the Mexican wrestling circuit, which is trying to expand in the US. One of the heels, a gringo, has the schtick of yelling at all the kids that they're illegals and he wants to report them all to la migra. And, AFAICT, only the faces wear masks in lucha libre.
I've seen plenty of masked Lucha heels ("rudos") myself.
Almost 500 Ukrainian soldiers had to retreat into Russia/deserted to Russia depending on which news source you are listening to.
Quote from: Tamas on August 04, 2014, 11:23:18 AM
Almost 500 Ukrainian soldiers had to retreat into Russia/deserted to Russia depending on which news source you are listening to.
I saw the RT report on this and their spin is these Ukrainians deserted/defective, which I don't buy for one second.
However another of their 'reports' that gets aired a lot, is about the poor supply situation amongst the Ukrainians units, which I can believe given the level of corruption in the region. If there's some element of truth in that, then I say these Ukrainians soldiers, regular or militia, gave themselves up because they ran out of ammunition and got box in on the border by separatists. TINA.
Quote from: celedhring on August 04, 2014, 11:10:56 AM
I've seen plenty of masked Lucha heels ("rudos") myself.
K
Quote from: Syt on August 04, 2014, 12:11:35 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 03, 2014, 05:47:45 PM
So are these sanctions really going to hurt Russia?
Well, Vienna hotels and luxury shops are moaning that they have a big dent in their revenue because Russian rich folk stay home.
Oh, so it's a twofer!
Just saw a story where Russian soldiers keep uploading their pics to instagram which pinpoints their locations. It just so happens they are in a country that they aren't suppose to be in.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 04, 2014, 05:28:27 PM
Just saw a story where Russian soldiers keep uploading their pics to instagram which pinpoints their locations. It just so happens they are in a country that they aren't suppose to be in.
:lol: That's awesome.
:rolleyes: FAKE!
DG's location: the produce section of the supermarket.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 05, 2014, 09:08:46 AM
DG's location: the produce section of the supermarket.
:unsure:
That's where you'll find....Blueberries.
DG's blueberries fell off a truck.
Quote from: derspiess on August 05, 2014, 08:38:37 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 04, 2014, 05:28:27 PM
Just saw a story where Russian soldiers keep uploading their pics to instagram which pinpoints their locations. It just so happens they are in a country that they aren't suppose to be in.
:lol: That's awesome.
At the end of the day, that's not going to matter, except for some pointless laughs. Russia at this point probably realizes that the jig is up, and I fear that their reaction would be to not pull back in embarrassment, but to just invade outright. To keep peace, of course.
http://rt.com/news/178484-putin-russia-sanctions-agriculture/
QuotePutin bans agricultural imports from sanctioning countries for 1 year
A one-year ban has been imposed on certain agricultural produce, foods and raw materials from countries that have sanctioned Russia. A law on economic measures to protect the country's security has been signed by President Putin.
The decree "on the use of specific economic measures" has been signed in response to sanctions imposed on Russia by a number of states over the Ukrainian crisis, the Kremlin said on its website.
While the law comes into force immediately, the government has been tasked to come up with a concrete list of imports to be banned.
The decree orders the Cabinet to take measures to provide a balance on product markets and prevent rapid price growth. The government has also to join efforts with manufacturers, businesses and retail store chains to increase the Russian goods supply.
Meanwhile, ministers are already drafting a list of products that could be affected by the ban and it can be ready already on Thursday, Natalia Timakova, a press-secretary for PM Dmitry Medvedev told Vedomosti newspaper. However, the agricultural watchdog Rosselkhoznadzor said it needs two to three days to prepare the list.
Last week, the European Union approved a new (the harshest so far) round of sanctions against Russia in addition to steps taken earlier. The package targeted financial, energy and defense sectors of the Russian economy. The so-called sectorial sanctions hit five Russian banks, including the country's biggest, Sberbank. The banks were banned from raising capital on the EU's capital markets. Also, the EU introduced an embargo on the import and export of arms and related material to and from Russia.
Speaking on Tuesday, ahead of signing the decree, Putin stressed that Moscow's response should be "cautious."
"Obviously we need to do it cautiously in order to support domestic manufacturers, but not hurt consumers," he said.
Putin described the political tools of pressure being used against the Russian economy as unacceptable and added that they go against international rules and norms.
A day earlier, Medvedev said that Moscow would consider possible responses to EU sanctions against Russian airlines.
Vedomosti daily has been reporting Russia would limit European flights to Asia that cross Siberia, in response to EU sanctions that caused Aeroflot subsidiary, Dobrolet, to suspend flights on Monday. However, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Wednesday the report was a baseless rumor.
The Russian Retailers' Association gave an assurance that the ban on agricultural imports will only affect the premium market segment, and ordinary customers will not feel the impact. The group's executive director, Andrey Karpov told RIA Novosti that the association will now reconsider the pool of foreign suppliers and increase the number of Russian vendors.
At the same time, a European diplomatic source told RIA Novosti news agency that the EU considers the restrictive measures counterproductive and unjustified.
Excellent - a self imposed embargo of goods they need that the West didnt have the political will to impose. That will show us!
Yeah, as far as embargoes go, that's a bit of a weird one. Unless he expects to massively shift imports to other trading partners as part of a strategy to disconnect from the West, economically.
Russia does produce a lot of its own food. It's crap, but still.
Besides, a lot of those embargoes are meaningless. Ship the goods to a third country, slap new labels on them, and done.
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/743807
QuoteLavrov declines to comment on rumours of Russia's airspace closure
UST KAMENOGORSK, August 06. /ITAR-TASS/. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Wednesday declined to comment on rumours that Moscow might close its airspace to foreign airlines.
"Responsible states must think about how such actions can affect consumers and their own companies," the minister said.
There's been rumors on this, as the EU banned a Russian budget airline from its airspace, because it connects with Crimea.
Also, U.S. media are controlled by the State Department: http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/743746
I guess that'll be news to FOX.
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2014, 11:38:26 AM
Yeah, as far as embargoes go, that's a bit of a weird one. Unless he expects to massively shift imports to other trading partners as part of a strategy to disconnect from the West, economically.
I think it's intended to bring targetted pressure to select countries to try and break up the EU's overall resolve. Poland was mentioned as one country where they might try and target their produce.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 06, 2014, 11:36:48 AM
Excellent - a self imposed embargo of goods they need that the West didnt have the political will to impose. That will show us!
The Hungarian beet pipeline will keep Russians fed throughout that period.
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2014, 11:43:22 AM
Also, U.S. media are controlled by the State Department: http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/743746
I guess that'll be news to FOX.
LOL they just make up whatever.
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2014, 11:40:35 AM
Besides, a lot of those embargoes are meaningless. Ship the goods to a third country, slap new labels on them, and done.
Does cost more, though. I imagine the Russian people won't be happy if their food bill increases.
Ukrainian mobile forces prepare:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.reutersmedia.net%2Fresources%2Fr%2F%3Fm%3D02%26amp%3Bd%3D20140806%26amp%3Bt%3D2%26amp%3Bi%3D958425103%26amp%3Bw%3D%26amp%3Bfh%3D%26amp%3Bfw%3D%26amp%3Bll%3D700%26amp%3Bpl%3D390%26amp%3Br%3D2014-08-06T172512Z_1_GM1EA87003J01_RTRMADP_0_UKRAINE-CRISIS&hash=a4458401908209be64e75361c7ffe76db7e07bb6)
Evidence sounds iron clad
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-was-shot-down-buk-warhead-investigators-n443431
Quote
Malaysia Airlines MH17 Was Shot Down by BUK 'Warhead': Investigators
by Alexander Smith
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was downed by a Russian-made "warhead" fired from eastern Ukraine that detonated outside the jet's cockpit, Dutch investigators confirmed in their final report Tuesday.
The findings of the Dutch Safety Board were announced at a press conference against the dramatic backdrop of the Boeing 777's partially reconstructed fuselage.
Tjibbe Joustra, chairman of the Dutch Safety Board, told the press conference the crash was caused by "the detonation of a warhead outside the airplane...to the left of the cockpit."
The missile was a BUK surface-to-air missile — which is made in Russia, according to Reuters.
He said the warhead's detonation killed the plane's three crew members in the cockpit and caused "structural damage" which resulted in the jet's "forward part" tearing off, the plane breaking up in midair and scattering over a large area.
The missile detonated less than one yard from the aircraft, Joustra said, adding that "high energy" fragments were found in the bodies of the three crew members killed in the cockpit.
He told the press conference that because of the armed conflict in Ukraine, there would have been "sufficient reason to close the airspace as a precaution" but "the Ukraine authorities failed to do so."
The press conference was also shown a computer reconstruction of the plane's final voyage.
The airliner was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on July 17 last year when it came down over eastern Ukraine, where government troops have been locked in a grinding conflict with pro-Russia rebels. All 298 people on board were killed.
Ukraine and its Western allies have alleged that the rebels shot down the plane with a missile made in Russia, something the rebels and Moscow rejects.
Russia Defense manufacturer maintains it was Kiev forces.
https://www.rt.com/news/318531-mh17-experiment-almaz-antey/
QuoteMH17 downed by outdated BUK missile fired from Kiev-controlled area – Defense system manufacturer
Two full-scale experiments by the Almaz-Antey defense company aimed at recreating the MH17 crash conclude the missile that downed the flight was an old BUK model fired from a Ukraine-controlled area, contesting the preliminary theory by Dutch investigators.
Two detonations of Buk missiles near aluminum panels and the cockpits of decommissioned Ilyushin Il-86 passenger airliners in July and October have produced what the company calls conclusive results.
In the course of the international investigation, "the company was provided with three T-shaped strike elements, which looked like 9M38M1 [model] strike elements, which caused specialists to make their conclusion on the missile type in June," said Almaz Antey's CEO.
Late in July the first full-scale experiment was conducted. Then a BUK 9M38M1 missile and aluminum panels were used.
"In the course of the experiment it became absolutely evident that if the Malaysian Boeing was downed by a BUK missile, it was done with an old BUK model which does not have double-T iron strike elements," CEO Yan Novikov told a media conference in Moscow.
The outcome of the experiment was sent over to the Dutch investigators, however, "according to what we know was not taken into consideration," Novikov said.
In October, the BUK manufacturer conducted a second full-scale experiment using the missile and a decommissioned Ilyushin Il-86 passenger airliner. The simulation of the attack on the Boeing "unequivocally proved that if the plane was brought down by a BUK system, it was done with an outdated 9M38 missile from the village of Zaroshchenskoye," in Ukrainian military-controlled territory.
The company also said that the last missile of this type was produced in the Soviet Union in 1986, that its life span is 25 years including all prolongations, and that all missiles of this type were decommissioned from the Russian Army in 2011.
According to Almaz-Antey experts, the Dutch side does not explain why the investigation insists that the possible launch of the surface-to-air missile was executed from the settlement of Snezhnoye, controlled by rebel forces.
A missile launched from Snezhnoye could not have inflicted damage to Boeing's left side and not a single element would have hit the aircraft's left wing and engine, insist the Almaz-Antey experts.
"The main proof that the aircraft was shot down from the direction of Snezhnoye was [the Dutch commission's] modeling of that process and interpretation of the damage to the fuselage. It does provide a quite visual imagery of how a missile on a head-on course could damage certain areas, yet this kind of modeling does not explain at all the real-incidence angles of striking elements [hitting the aircraft]," Novikov said.
Analysis of the photos of MH17 debris led the company's experts to believe that the blast of the warhead damaged not only the cockpit of the Boeing 777 that crashed in Ukraine, but also the left wing and stabilizer.
The detonation of the missile occurred at a distance of more than 20 meters from the left-wing engine and most of the strike elements were moving along the fuselage of the aircraft.
"The left wing and stabilizer also bear traces of damage, the size of which provides an opportunity to define them as inflicted by the strike elements of a BUK missile complex," adviser of the general constructor of Almaz-Antey, Mikhail Malyshevsky, said.
The Almaz-Antey experts paid special attention to the fact that some of the damage registered on the MH17 debris was caused by disruption of the aircraft's structural components and not by the striking elements of the missile.
The experts of Almaz-Antey also said that Ukraine possesses 9M38 missiles, but fell short of accusing either the Kiev authorities or the rebels in the east of Ukraine of causing the catastrophe.
The Almaz-Antey specialists have not excluded other possible causes of the MH17 tragedy.
The preliminary theory of the Dutch Safety Board report investigating technical details of the MH17 air crash was presented on June 1 and since then the participants in the investigation, namely Australia, Malaysia, the Netherlands, Russia, the USA, UK and Ukraine have been allowed to deliver their amendments. Russian authorities have repeatedly called attention to the fact that the investigation team rejects evidence presented by Russian entities such as Almaz-Antey, which are not likely to be presented in the final version expected to be delivered on Tuesday, October 13.
Simultaneously with the investigation of the Dutch Safety Board, the Dutch prosecutor's office is conducting a separate criminal investigation of its own aimed at establishing the perpetrators of the attack on passenger aircraft.
A Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 flight MH17 passenger aircraft left from Amsterdam to the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur on July 17, 2014. The airliner was shot down and fell to Earth over the Donetsk Region in eastern Ukraine. All 298 people, 283 passengers and 15 crew, on board were killed. There were 80 children among the passengers. Most, 193 people, were Dutch nationals; altogether the airliner was carrying citizens from 10 countries.
Well, that's slightly more plausible than their first story, "Malaysian Airliner shot itself in the head with missile"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/28/flight-mh17-shot-down-by-missile-brought-in-from-russia-ukraine-malaysia-airlines
QuoteMH17 shot down by missile brought into Ukraine from Russia, says investigation
'Conclusive evidence' that Buk missile brought from Russia hit Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777, killing 298 people
Flight MH17 was shot down over Ukraine by a Buk missile brought across the border from Russia and fired from a village under the control of pro-Russian rebels, an international criminal investigation has said.
In a press conference on Wednesday in Nieuwegein, in the Netherlands, the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) said there was conclusive evidence that a Buk 9M38 missile hit the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777, killing all 298 people on board.
Wilbert Paulissen, the head of the Dutch national detective force, said: "The missile was shot down by a Buk. This Buk was brought in from the territory of the Russian Federation, and after launch was subsequently returned to Russian Federation territory."
Paulissen said the missile had been fired from an arable field 6km (three miles) south of the village of Snizhne. "At the time of the launch this territory was under the control of pro-Russian fighters," he said.
The farmland near Pervomaiske "can be pointed out as the launch site without any doubt", Paulissen said, saying that witnesses reported a "loud explosion and a high whistling sound" followed by a smoke trail in the sky.
MH17 crashed about 25km away from where the Buk missile was fired, Paulissen said, at about 4.20pm on 17 July, 2014. Satellite data provided by the US and the European Space Agency confirmed the launch site, he said.
In other astonishing developments: water still wet, Pope is Catholic, and Earth revolving around sun.
But, but..
Russian radar data shows no missile attack on MH17 from rebel side, indicates Ukraine involvement (https://www.rt.com/news/360634-mh17-ukraine-radar-data/)
QuoteNewly discovered raw data picked up by a civilian radar station on the day of the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash shows no signs of a missile being fired at the plane from territory controlled by rebels, the Russian military and radar producer said.
QuoteAccording to Almaz-Antey, memory chips from that station were replaced in July 2014, shortly after the tragic incident, and were discovered recently.
The title of the slide makes me cringe.
(https://cdn.rt.com/files/2016.09/original/57ebb0b7c46188e66b8b456a.jpg)
Dunglish ftw :lol:
I fail at Dutch now :blush:
Thought the plural was Scenarios and genitive was scenario's.
Had to check forgot totally about this silly rule
Scenario's Pizza.
So, what will the Dutch do about it?
LOL Scenario's Pizza
Quote from: Martinus on September 28, 2016, 10:32:51 AM
So, what will the Dutch do about it?
The Russian ambassador has been summoned!! That'll teach 'em.
Quote from: Maladict on September 30, 2016, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 28, 2016, 10:32:51 AM
So, what will the Dutch do about it?
The Russian ambassador has been summoned!! That'll teach 'em.
I hope they construed a proper circle or he gets out and wreaks havoc before returning to his Abyssal dimensions.
Quote from: Martinus on September 30, 2016, 07:03:32 AM
Quote from: Maladict on September 30, 2016, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 28, 2016, 10:32:51 AM
So, what will the Dutch do about it?
The Russian ambassador has been summoned!! That'll teach 'em.
I hope they construed a proper circle or he gets out and wreaks havoc before returning to his Abyssal dimensions.
:lol:
It only took six years, but we're suing Russia. Putin must be shitting himself in fear.
:showoff:
Quote from: Maladict on July 10, 2020, 07:59:26 AM
It only took six years, but we're suing Russia. Putin must be shitting himself in fear.
Well, it's important to cross all your P's and dot your Q's in a case like this.
Quote from: Maladict on July 10, 2020, 07:59:26 AM
It only took six years, but we're suing Russia. Putin must be shitting himself in fear.
I bet he didn't expect the Dutch inquisition!
Their chief weapons are two: surprise and fear, and really colorful tulips. Wait that's three....
Also, their ovens.