BREAKING NEWS - Malaysian airliner crashes on Russian-Ukrainian border

[derspiess]

Also, after the Reagan incident we shot down a civilian airliner too. So we can only be so outraged without looking silly.

Well, the Russians and their cronies have a few more under their belt than we do.  Also we took responsibility and compensated the victims.

[Tamas]

Luckily the (extremely active and thus everywhere dominating) right-wing Hungarian online commenters solved the mystery. The plane was shot down by the... wait for it...

[derspiess]

Apparently there has been significant looting at the crash site (stay classy, Russkies).  Also OSCE monitors were trying to get to the crash site but were chased away by separatist gunfire.

I heard an NPR story this morning naively anticipating that investigators soon would be at the wreckage site to start their work.  By international law that would be Ukrainian government officials, and they'd have to fight their way there. 

As if a plane crash itself weren't bad enough-- there are multiple layers of shittiness on top of it

[mongers]

Also, after the Reagan incident we shot down a civilian airliner too. So we can only be so outraged without looking silly.

Yeah, but the Soviet incident is much more chilling.  The American idiot in charge launched a rocket based on misidentification of the aircraft.  The Soviet pilot saw what he was shooting at, and must've known he was doing the wrong thing, but he went ahead anyway and callously ended 200+ lives with the press of the button, because that's what he was ordered to do.

Yes there seems to be a few similarities between the civilian Iranian airliner shoot down and this tragedy*, maybe this one could be handled in similar way to that one? The difficulty being one 'side' are rebels whereas Iran was just a government the US didn't have diplomatic relations with.

Let's just hope the US/Netherlands don't go down route chosen by the Iranians, in how they react to this.




*I'm assuming it wasn't an intentional act to shoot down a known civilian airliner, rather than just gross stupidity and criminal disregard for the rules of war.

[Malthus]

Luckily the (extremely active and thus everywhere dominating) right-wing Hungarian online commenters solved the mystery. The plane was shot down by the... wait for it...

How, one wonders, does shooting down this plane advance the cause of the Elders of Zion?

[Tamas]

Luckily the (extremely active and thus everywhere dominating) right-wing Hungarian online commenters solved the mystery. The plane was shot down by the... wait for it...

How, one wonders, does shooting down this plane advance the cause of the Elders of Zion?

Everybody listens to this while they invade Palestina

[Valmy]

Damn first they create ISIS now this.  Those dastardly Zionists have power to do everything BUT solve the Palestinian conflict.

[derspiess]

Damn first they create ISIS now this.  Those dastardly Zionists have power to do everything BUT solve the Palestinian conflict.

Of course.  There's money to be made *and* muslims to oppress.

[grumbler]

There are not many similarities between this shoot-down and that of Iran Air Flight 655, other than there being a missile involved and an airliner involved.  USS Vicennes was engaged in active combat with Iranian forces*, and an attack by Iranian Air Force was, in fact, being attempted and had been reported to the Vincennes.   F-14 radar was coming from the direction of the aircraft (though it was from an F-14 being prepped for launch at the airfield the IA flight had just left.  The air defense officer mistook the decreasing range for decreasing altitude and, despite the fact that other people in the CIC were calling out that IAF 655 was COMMAIR, fired.  The US immediately acknowledged the action and conceded its culpability when the facts came out.  It compensated the victims and the airline.

None of those factor played into the downing of the Malaysian airliner. The firing battery was not in combat, and didn't think the aircraft was a imminent threat.  The missile ws fired because the operators wanted to fire it, and for no other reason.  They didn't appear to even attempt to communicate with the aircraft (as the USS Vincennes had done something like had done 12 times before firing on IAF 655) or to identify it.

Apples and oranges.


*illegally, as it turns out, though that has nothing to do with the actual shoot-down other than to increase US culpability.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Indeed.  Recklessly playing with their new toys.

F-14 radar was coming from the direction of the aircraft (though it was from an F-14 being prepped for launch at the airfield the IA flight had just left.

I had not heard this tidbit before, though.  Why and how did they get the radar to transmit on the ground?  They would have had to bypass the Weight on Wheels interlocks, and I can't think of anything that powering the antenna on the ground would gain for a pre-flight anyway.  Is there something about the F-14's system that allowed or even necessitated this?

[grumbler]

I had not heard this tidbit before, though.  Why and how did they get the radar to transmit on the ground?  They would have had to bypass the Weight on Wheels interlocks, and I can't think of anything that powering the antenna on the ground would gain for a pre-flight anyway.  Is there something about the F-14's system that allowed or even necessitated this?

The aircraft were old and using cannibalized parts.  I believe they normally tested all the systems before launch, because reliability was so low.  In fact, the aircraft would have been armed with iron bombs because nothing else still worked.

[Razgovory]

There are not many similarities between this shoot-down and that of Iran Air Flight 655, other than there being a missile involved and an airliner involved.  USS Vicennes was engaged in active combat with Iranian forces*, and an attack by Iranian Air Force was, in fact, being attempted and had been reported to the Vincennes.   F-14 radar was coming from the direction of the aircraft (though it was from an F-14 being prepped for launch at the airfield the IA flight had just left.  The air defense officer mistook the decreasing range for decreasing altitude and, despite the fact that other people in the CIC were calling out that IAF 655 was COMMAIR, fired.  The US immediately acknowledged the action and conceded its culpability when the facts came out.  It compensated the victims and the airline.

None of those factor played into the downing of the Malaysian airliner. The firing battery was not in combat, and didn't think the aircraft was a imminent threat.  The missile ws fired because the operators wanted to fire it, and for no other reason.  They didn't appear to even attempt to communicate with the aircraft (as the USS Vincennes had done something like had done 12 times before firing on IAF 655) or to identify it.

Apples and oranges.


*illegally, as it turns out, though that has nothing to do with the actual shoot-down other than to increase US culpability.

A very creative interpretation of events.  I suppose if you are as old as Grumbler 8 years is "immediate".

[derspiess]

I thought the US did pretty much immediately acknowledge it had shot down a civilian plane.  What am I missing, Raz?

[garbon]

I thought the US did pretty much immediately acknowledge it had shot down a civilian plane.  What am I missing, Raz?

The only fact I see in dispute is the damages bit. Apparently that didn't take place until the mid-90s when the US was sued? Well that's what wiki says.

[Razgovory]

I thought the US did pretty much immediately acknowledge it had shot down a civilian plane.  What am I missing, Raz?

It took 8 years to compensate the victims, I don't think there ever was an admission of wrong doing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/17/when-airliners-get-shot-down-facts-get-skewed-quickly/

One obvious example involves the United States. On July 3, 1988, a helicopter from the USS Vincennes, a guided missile cruiser, came under fire from Iranian gunboats while over the Persian Gulf. Seeing an aircraft speeding their way, the ship's crew opened fire with two surface-to-air missiles — and brought down a commercial jet, Iran Air Flight 655, carrying 290 people. Navy officials said the Vincennes crew thought it was an Iranian fighter jet, and a threat to their safety.

As outlined in The Washington Post the next day, the Pentagon at first denied Iranian accusations that the Navy had shot down an airliner. Within hours, however, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs at the time, Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., said the United States had confirmed the incident.

Even then, Crowe moved quickly to to back the skipper of the ship, Capt. William C. Rogers III.  He said the Airbus had flown four miles west of the usual commercial airline route, that the pilot ignored repeated radio warnings from the Vincennes to change course, and that its altitude was decreasing as it got closer. U.S. officials also said repeatedly the ship was in international waters, which would put the Iranians in the wrong for opening fire on the ship in the first place.

Few of those details turned out to be true. The Vincennes and helicopter were actually in Iranian waters and airspace, subsequent investigations found. ABC News, among others, later reported that the plane actually was flying where it should have been and had already turned away from the Vincennes when it was shot down. U.S. officials also said the helicopter that came under fire was checking on a vessel that had issued a distress call, but later investigations show the ship did not exist.