BREAKING NEWS - Malaysian airliner crashes on Russian-Ukrainian border

[Tamas]

So I guess Hansmeister must REALLY hate Reagan.

[derspiess]

How is this for chutzpah? Putin blames Ukraine because the plane went down in Ukrainian terrory - this, while he's arming and supporting the rebels who most likely shot it down, and whose goal is to dispute Ukrainian control over that same territory!

"And without doubt the government of the territory on which it happened bears responsibility for this frightening tragedy," he said, adding that he had urged the Russian authorities to do everything possible to help with the investigation into the incident.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/putin-ukraine-malaysia_n_5597094.html

Using Russian peasant logic that probably makes sense.

[grumbler]

I'm almost surprised they didn't hide or destroy the black box and claim they couldn't find it.

They are now "lost," and "no one has ever seen them."

[derspiess]

There we go.

[KRonn]

How is this for chutzpah? Putin blames Ukraine because the plane went down in Ukrainian terrory - this, while he's arming and supporting the rebels who most likely shot it down, and whose goal is to dispute Ukrainian control over that same territory!

"And without doubt the government of the territory on which it happened bears responsibility for this frightening tragedy," he said, adding that he had urged the Russian authorities to do everything possible to help with the investigation into the incident.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/putin-ukraine-malaysia_n_5597094.html

Oh yeah, now the blame and obfuscation campaign begins on the part of Putin, no surprise. And he'll have a State news service to assist him. Is there much of a free/independent press in Russia anymore?

[derspiess]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html

16.22 Mr Churkin says that there should not be an investigation - because there is absolutely no blame to be placed on Russia.
He says many were trying to pre-judge the outcome of an investigation.
16.20 Russian ambassador Vitaly Churkin now speaking at the UN Security Council.
Warns of "trying to prejudge outcome" the MH17 investigation and questions why Ukraine's air traffic control routed the flight over a conflict zone.

As a side-note, I wish it were 16:22 here.  This morning has dragged on and I'm ready to get my damned weekend started.

[Maladict]

The entrance to the Dutch embassy in Kiev is covered in flowers placed by Ukrainians.
At the embassy in Moscow, people are leaving notes saying sorry and asking for forgiveness.

[alfred russel]

So I guess Hansmeister must REALLY hate Reagan.

I heard on the radio a compare / contrast with how Reagan handled the USSR shootdown vs. Obama this one. Reagan went full out with it--immediately going to the situation room, I think there was a nationwide address, a memorial service, he cleared the rest of his schedule, etc. The idea was that Obama is showing weakness; Reagan was much more in command and forceful in the situation.

Of course Russia today is not the USSR of yesterday: Reagan was deliberately trying to pressure the USSR in every way available, and this was just another opportunity. Obama doing the same would be sort of absurd. Going full on confrontational with Russia would not make the US any friends, and probably push some countries toward Russia.

[Tamas]

So I guess Hansmeister must REALLY hate Reagan.

I heard on the radio a compare / contrast with how Reagan handled the USSR shootdown vs. Obama this one. Reagan went full out with it--immediately going to the situation room, I think there was a nationwide address, a memorial service, he cleared the rest of his schedule, etc. The idea was that Obama is showing weakness; Reagan was much more in command and forceful in the situation.

Of course Russia today is not the USSR of yesterday: Reagan was deliberately trying to pressure the USSR in every way available, and this was just another opportunity. Obama doing the same would be sort of absurd. Going full on confrontational with Russia would not make the US any friends, and probably push some countries toward Russia.

FYI, Reagan first spoke to the public about the incident after 5 days, and used the opportunity to push for nuclear disarmament. ie. by GOP standards of the day, acted like a major pussy.

[alfred russel]

FYI, Reagan first spoke to the public about the incident after 5 days, and used the opportunity to push for nuclear disarmament. ie. by GOP standards of the day, acted like a major pussy.

That is NOT the impression I got from a brief clip of right wing talk radio this morning.

[Valmy]

That is NOT the impression I got from a brief clip of right wing talk radio this morning.

Things I have learned from Right Wing Talk Radio:

1. The Belgian Government has no right to criticize anybody because of the atrocities committed during the 19th century in the Belgian Congo.

2. Bill Clinton agreeing with right wing policies and signing them into law only proves he is a horrible Left Wing President.  In fact this just makes him worse.

3. Anybody thinking Americans would ever support gay marriage is stupid since polls indicate Americans believe in God.

[alfred russel]

If Tamas in interested in the right wing response, from fox news:

White House leadership: Reagan on KAL 007 vs. Obama on MH17
By K.T. McFarland
• Published July 18, 2014 • There is a saying that great men make history and history makes great men.

Ronald Reagan was the living example of this when, on September 1, 1983, the Soviet Union, without warning, shot down a civilian Korean airliner flying from New York to Seoul, killing all 269 men, women and children on board.

Reagan was on vacation at his ranch in California.  He cut his vacation short and headed back to Washington the next day.

The shooting down of the Korean airliner marked a turning point for Reagan. Up until that time he and others had hoped to compromise with the USSR, trusting them to do the right thing for themselves and the world.  The incident changed Reagan's mind. 
He met with his national security advisers to determine what happened.  Initial reports were that  Soviet military aircraft had tracked a Korean civilian airliner which had strayed accidentally into their airspace, then deliberately, callously, destroyed it without warning.  They initially lied, denying they had anything to do with it.  But once their guilt could not be denied, they said their action was justified because the civilian aircraft was a spy plane.

It marked a turning point for Reagan. Up until that time he and others had hoped to compromise with the USSR, trusting them to do the right thing for themselves and the world.  The incident changed Reagan's mind. 

He concluded the Soviet system was corrupt, malignant, and would ultimately fail.  He knew that compromise with Soviet leaders wasn't possible, and that we had to negotiate from a position of strength to have any chance of success.

Reagan took pen to paper and wrote his own speech to the American people, explaining what the Soviets had done and why it was so dangerous to us and the world.

"...make no mistake about it, this attack was not just against ourselves or the Republic of Korea. This was the Soviet Union against the world and the moral precepts which guide human relations among people everywhere. It was an act of barbarism, born of a society which wantonly disregards individual rights and the value of human life and seeks constantly to expand and dominate other nations.

They deny the deed, but in their conflicting and misleading protestations, the Soviets reveal that, yes, shooting down a plane — even one with hundreds of innocent men, women, children, and babies — is a part of their normal procedure if that plane is in what they claim as their airspace.

They owe the world an apology and an offer to join the rest of the world in working out a system to protect against this ever happening again."

Reagan followed strong words with even stronger actions. He accelerated work on the Star Wars missile defense system. He urged Congress and the American people to continue the Reagan defense buildup. He shored up our European allies and encouraged them to stand up to the Communists. And he understood that the Soviet economy depended on high oil prices, so he set about to bankrupt them.  Six years after the Soviets shot down the Korean airliner, their empire collapsed.

This is Barack Obama's chance to make history. Will he seize the moment and reverse course? If so, he will restore defense spending.  He will take back all those pink slips he's just sent to members of the military. He will reinstate the defense missile shield for Poland and the Czech Republic. He will rally our European allies to stand up to Putin.  And he will accelerate American energy independence efforts, so that we and our European allies are no longer subject to Russian energy blackmail.

Now is the time of Obama's testing. Will history make him a great man? Will he rise up to be a great man who makes history?  Or will he just play out the clock for his last two years in office, hobnobbing with celebrities, playing golf with moguls, and living the good life? 

If so, history will soon move past him, and he will spend the next thirty years as a former president coming in first in polls for the worst president in modern American history.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/18/white-house-leadership-reagan-on-kal-007-vs-obama-on-mh17/

The radio show I heard a bit of this morning took a slightly different tack (though generally the same theme), comparing minute by minute what Obama and Reagan did differently.

[KRonn]

I'm almost surprised they didn't hide or destroy the black box and claim they couldn't find it.

They are now "lost," and "no one has ever seen them."

Putin will ensure the black boxes are safe and available for investigation by handing them over to the US IRS agency.   

[alfred russel]

Also, after the Reagan incident we shot down a civilian airliner too. So we can only be so outraged without looking silly.

[DGuller]

Also, after the Reagan incident we shot down a civilian airliner too. So we can only be so outraged without looking silly.

Yeah, but the Soviet incident is much more chilling.  The American idiot in charge launched a rocket based on misidentification of the aircraft.  The Soviet pilot saw what he was shooting at, and must've known he was doing the wrong thing, but he went ahead anyway and callously ended 200+ lives with the press of the button, because that's what he was ordered to do.