BREAKING NEWS - Malaysian airliner crashes on Russian-Ukrainian border

[Malthus]

Agelastus/derspiess/Berkut: distinction without a difference as I see it.

It matters only to the extent one elects to ignore the strings connecting the puppet to the master's hand.

Or as a common law lawyer might say: respondeat superior.

The difference is political: having Russia be the direct supplier of the missile demonstrates those "strings" in a manner obvious to anyone. Same if it turns out the tech doing the shooting was actually a Russian special forces "volunteering". 

I agree that as far as moral or legal culpability goes, it makes no difference. 

[Legbiter]

What is an appropriate response from the West if the above is what happened? More sanctions against Russia?

For the West that would be very appropriate.

For the Dutch an appropriate answer would be a DOW against Russia with the dispatch of an expeditionary force to the Donetsk region to kill or capture all the Russian astroturf rebels.

[Maladict]

Very moving return of the bodies today. Especially the things that weren't shown, such as the families being allowed to spend some time in the aircraft. Empty highways, windmills stopped in the mourning position.
Holland at its best. 

[Admiral Yi]

What is the windmill mourning position?

[Maladict]

What is the windmill mourning position?

1 Celebration
2 Mourning
3 Rest
4 Extended rest
5 Warning/emergency
6 Festive

[Maladict]

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/14_luglio_22/cosi-stato-colpito-l-aereo-0a7e5f9e-115f-11e4-affb-3320a03d21e8.shtml

Rebel leader admits to downing the plane, says they acted on instructions from superiors. Apparently they were told that a plane full of fascists from Kiev was inbound.

[Berkut]

Well, if there were reports that the plane was full of libertarians, you can hardly blame them.

[Agelastus]

Since Grumbler and I are in agreement here, I don't think he'll object if I answer for him.  These aren't actually amateurs.  They are trained soldiers.  A machine like this is not something a militia man can just find, read the manual and use.  It requires specific training of a team of soldiers.  Ukraine has already repatriate the bodies of dead "rebels" back to Russia.  If a Russian soldiers kills someone with a weapon that was issued to them, one they looted, or one they bought by themselves is immaterial.  The guilt falls on Russia.

Since "smoking gun" proof still hasn't been produced that Russian soldiers are on "detached duty" on government orders in the Ukraine (it's believed, and is almost certainly true, but if any of the intelligence services have definitive proof they haven't published it. The Ukraine repatriating bodies to Russia when it has no protocols to exchange the dead with the rebels is not proof, not when there's propaganda value in sending them to Russia even if they are natives of the Donetsk region.)

We do not know that the weapon was Russian.

Since various models of the Buk have been around for decades and there are considerable numbers of ex-soldiers of Russian ethnicity in the Donetsk region we don't even know that it was a Russian or Ukrainian who fired it. Nor do we even know if "advisors" were there.

The difference does matter; in fact, politically it's very important.

------------------------------------------

And to Minsky, and with the proviso that I am in no way arguing that the primary responsibility for the shootdown doesn't lie with the rebels but am merely contemplating where the compensation that seems to accompany shoot-downs of airliners has to come from...



So if this was the United Kingdom, if a bunch of Welsh Nationalists who were former soldiers siezed an anti-aircraft missile and then used said missile to shoot down an airliner the British government, as the owner with the duty to safeguard said missile and prevent its misuse, would have no responsibility in the matter? No moral responsibility? No legal responsibility?

How...novel...

[My apologies to any Welsh Nationalists for the example used; I in no way consider you to be similar to or equivalent to the Russian Nationalists in the Donetsk region.]

[Agelastus]

Well, if there were reports that the plane was full of libertarians, you can hardly blame them.

Out of place in this thread, but given recent discussions...

[The Minsky Moment]

The proposition that the victim of plunder and theft bears legal and moral responsibility for the thief's attempt to use the plundered items in an act of violence aimed against the victim is one that I have a hard time agreeing with.

[CountDeMoney]

But Mono told me this was the Ukraine, not Latin America, Africa or Asia, so there was no possibility of looting the scene.

[alfred russel]

The proposition that the victim of plunder and theft bears legal and moral responsibility for the thief's attempt to use the plundered items in an act of violence aimed against the victim is one that I have a hard time agreeing with.

It would contribute to the defense of the Russian government though. And also contribute to the argument that (the) Ukraine is a failed state.

[Admiral Yi]

Heard on BBC/NPR that the European Bank for Reconstruction & Development has ceased all lending in Russia, and that the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund is "studying" divesting from Russia.

[Razgovory]

Good.

[The Minsky Moment]

It would contribute to the defense of the Russian government though. And also contribute to the argument that (the) Ukraine is a failed state.

I honestly can't see how this would be a defense of Russia in any relevant respect

To the extent that Ukraine  can be said to have "failed" in this respect it is a direct result of Russian subversion targeted to achieve that exact result.

It's not exculpatory for Russia, it is incriminating