BREAKING NEWS - Malaysian airliner crashes on Russian-Ukrainian border

[alfred russel]

It would contribute to the defense of the Russian government though. And also contribute to the argument that (the) Ukraine is a failed state.

I honestly can't see how this would be a defense of Russia in any relevant respect

To the extent that Ukraine  can be said to have "failed" in this respect it is a direct result of Russian subversion targeted to achieve that exact result.

It's not exculpatory for Russia, it is incriminating

I don't think we have a shortage of people in the west that admire or at least take the side of Putin in broader Ukraine situation. You may see the situation as Russia fomenting trouble in the eastern ukraine, and supporting separatists there to the extent the Ukrainian government can not assert control. Out of this chaos some nutjobs shot down a plane, almost certainly with either direct or indirect russian assistance.

That is probably reality, but a lot of people see the situation as the Russian minority standing up for themselves in Eastern Ukraine. Russian support merely offsets the support the west gives Ukraine, which is a failed state unable to control its own territory and thus not really worth our efforts. The Russian minority capturing military equipment from Ukraine and using it to accidentally shoot down an airliner could be seen as just a symptom of how failed Ukraine is, and haven't we had enough trying to fix failed states?

I don't agree with the view in the second paragraph, but considering that most people in the west don't care about this stuff at all, some have the view of the second paragraph, and some don't want sanctions for economic reasons, it really does complicate the matter of coordination real sanctions against Russia.

[The Minsky Moment]

The Russian minority has been in the eastern Ukraine since the Soviet breakup. The same people were there for years of rule under other pro-Western governments and nothing vaguely like this happened. This is a well orchestrated campaign only now that the tuba player has been a bit too enthusiastic and killed off part of the audience the conductor wants to pretend he was never in the concert hall.

[alfred russel]

The Russian minority has been in the eastern Ukraine since the Soviet breakup. The same people were there for years of rule under other pro-Western governments and nothing vaguely like this happened. This is a well orchestrated campaign only now that the tuba player has been a bit too enthusiastic and killed off part of the audience the conductor wants to pretend he was never in the concert hall.

I'm convinced.

Now go to the comment sections of the guardian, yahoo, etc. and convince the others. 

[Razgovory]

Fortunately, people who post crazy shit in the comments section aren't driving European foreign policy, though you might make that mistake sometimes.

[KRonn]

The Russian minority has been in the eastern Ukraine since the Soviet breakup. The same people were there for years of rule under other pro-Western governments and nothing vaguely like this happened. This is a well orchestrated campaign only now that the tuba player has been a bit too enthusiastic and killed off part of the audience the conductor wants to pretend he was never in the concert hall.

Agreed. This is mainly Russia's, or more accurately Putin's doing. Many of the "locals" are Russian troops or spec ops. Whole thing being orchestrated by Putin and he was doing a good job of it, except for the airline shoot down which reflects on him/Russia as they supply the weapons, train the rebels or have some of their own troops operating the weapons given how long it takes to train on those things.

[Syt]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/24/us-ukraine-crisis-parliament-idUSKBN0FT14U20140724

Ukrainian prime minister quits, parties force new election

(Reuters) - Ukraine's prime minister tendered his resignation on Thursday, berating parliament for failing to pass legislation to take control over an increasingly precarious energy situation and to increase army financing.

Earlier on Thursday, two parties quit the government coalition, forcing new elections to a parliament whose make-up has not changed since before the toppling of pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovich in February.

His successor, President Petro Poroshenko, supported the move, which one politician said would clear "Moscow agents" from the chamber.

Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk's resignation could leave a hole at the heart of decision-making as Ukraine struggles to fund a war with pro-Russian rebels in its east and deals with the aftermath of a plane crash that killed 298 people.

The usually mild-mannered Yatseniuk bellowed at politicians who had failed to pass a law to allow a liberalization of control over Ukraine's pipeline system.

He said politicians risked losing the hearts and minds of Ukrainians who had protested for months in the "Maidan" demonstrations in favor of joining Europe and against Yanukovich.

"History will not forgive us," he told parliament.

"Millions of people made this revolution. We did not take the European choice but the 'heavenly hundred' and thousands of other Ukrainians did," he said, referring to those killed, mainly by sniper fire, during the protests.

Yatseniuk, who has been central to talks with the European Union and the United States, cannot leave office immediately, political analysts said, because he is obliged to continue his duties before a new prime minister and government are installed.

But his impassioned speech underlined the frustration of many in Ukraine that change in the higher echelons of power was taking too much time.

"FULL RESET"

Morale has also sunk in Kiev since the downing of a Malaysian airliner in rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine last week, even though Ukrainian forces are making headway in the military campaign against the separatists.

Poroshenko welcomed the decision by the nationalist party Svoboda and the Udar (Punch) party of former boxing champion Vitaly Klitschko to withdraw from the majority coalition in parliament.

"Society wants a full reset of state authorities," Poroshenko said in a statement, adding that the move showed that those who decided to quit the coalition were following the will of the people.

Politicians and pro-European activists have complained that while Ukraine has a new president, it has yet to elect a new parliament since the toppling of Yanukovich in February, and accuse his supporters of hampering its work.

Yatseniuk said that by blocking legislation, like a bill to allow consortiums with European or U.S. companies to operate Ukraine's ageing gas distribution system and storage facilities, parliament was putting Ukraine's future at risk.

By not tackling budget spending, it was also putting the lives of Ukraine's soldiers in jeopardy, he said.

"It's unacceptable that because laws have not been passed, we now have no means with which to pay soldiers, doctors, police, we have no fuel for armored vehicles, and no way of freeing ourselves from dependence on Russian gas," he said.

"Those people who are sitting there under fire, can we just think of them?"

[alfred russel]

Just saw that some dutch mayor said that a daughter of putin living in the netherlands should be kicked out of the country. Now he is apologizing for saying that. If that is true, .

[DGuller]

Just saw that some dutch mayor said that a daughter of putin living in the netherlands should be kicked out of the country. Now he is apologizing for saying that. If that is true, .

That wasn't smart of him.  Putin has zero tolerance for disclosures about anything that has to do with his daughters, including their location.  I'd walk around with Geiger counter if I were that mayor.

[grumbler]

Just saw that some dutch mayor said that a daughter of putin living in the netherlands should be kicked out of the country. Now he is apologizing for saying that. If that is true, .

That wasn't smart of him.  Putin has zero tolerance for disclosures about anything that has to do with his daughters, including their location.  I'd walk around with Geiger counter if I were that mayor.

He should hire Marti to tackle anyone who comes near him with an umbrella.

[Zanza]

I would expect she took a private jet to Moscow right after people started posting her private address to go and protest there.

[CountDeMoney]

I would expect she took a private jet to Moscow right after people started posting her private address to go and protest there.

How ironical, should it get shot down.

[DGuller]

I would expect she took a private jet to Moscow right after people started posting her private address to go and protest there.

Having your children reside in Russia is regarded as child abuse among Russian oligarchs.

[Maladict]

Just saw that some dutch mayor said that a daughter of putin living in the netherlands should be kicked out of the country. Now he is apologizing for saying that. If that is true, .

That wasn't smart of him.  Putin has zero tolerance for disclosures about anything that has to do with his daughters, including their location.  I'd walk around with Geiger counter if I were that mayor.

It had been public knowledge long before the crash. But yeah, pretty dumb thing to say.

[Razgovory]

It is interesting that people in Europe just sort of accept the idea that Putin might just assassinate them one day.

[Eddie Teach]

Putin may assassinate you one day. He has the reach.