BREAKING NEWS - Malaysian airliner crashes on Russian-Ukrainian border

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Its a tracked vehicle variant known as a tank. 

There you go.

Huh, I was going to say T-90.  Though, in hindsight, I think the T-90 has a larger turret.

Also, I want to run home and play Wargame: European Escalation now.

[Razgovory]

I figured it was T-64, simply because he asked what it was.  If it was the more common T-72 he probably wouldn't have.  I don't even know if they have T-80s in front line service anymore.  Truth is almost all post war Soviet MBT look alike.

[11B4V]

I figured it was T-64, simply because he asked what it was.  If it was the more common T-72 he probably wouldn't have.  I don't even know if they have T-80s in front line service anymore.  Truth is almost all post war Soviet MBT look alike.

Only to the layperson.

[Agelastus]

I figured it was T-64, simply because he asked what it was.  If it was the more common T-72 he probably wouldn't have.  I don't even know if they have T-80s in front line service anymore.  Truth is almost all post war Soviet MBT look alike.

I said T-72 precisely because I knew there were so few T-80s left in service.

Am I right in remembering that the T-80's main production plant was in the Ukraine?

[Razgovory]

No, they look alike to everyone.  You can look at American M60 and a M1 and immediately see the difference.  Soviet tanks have subtle differences such as the presence of a fume extractor or spacing of road wheels.

[Razgovory]

I figured it was T-64, simply because he asked what it was.  If it was the more common T-72 he probably wouldn't have.  I don't even know if they have T-80s in front line service anymore.  Truth is almost all post war Soviet MBT look alike.

I said T-72 precisely because I knew there were so few T-80s left in service.

Am I right in remembering that the T-80's main production plant was in the Ukraine?

Don't know, but it's entirely possible.  I think the Ukrainians use T-80s more then Russians do.  Despite all the talk of the differences between the two, they aren't that much difference in effectiveness in the field, which may be why the Russians don't use them much.  They were more expensive to operate.

[11B4V]

Its a tracked vehicle variant known as a tank. 

There you go.

Huh, I was going to say T-90.  Though, in hindsight, I think the T-90 has a larger turret.

Also, I want to run home and play Wargame: European Escalation now.

T-90 would be a good guess. The T-90a also has the exhaust at the left rear, but it is smaller than the base T-72 model. Also opposite the MG is another minor feature.

[Savonarola]

Ukraine conflict: Russia accuses US of 'smear campaign'
Ukrainian troops on patrol in the Lugansk region - 25 July 2014
Fighting in eastern Ukraine is ongoing and the West accuses Russia of aiding the separatist rebels there

Russia has accused the US of launching a "smear campaign" over its alleged involvement in the conflict in Ukraine.

The foreign ministry in Moscow said on Friday it rejects "unfounded public insinuations" from the US government.

But the Pentagon says it believes the movement of Russian heavy-calibre artillery systems across the border into Ukraine is "imminent."

The row comes as more bodies of victims from flight MH17, which crashed in Ukraine, arrived in the Netherlands.

Separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine have been accused of shooting down the Malaysia Airlines plane.

The US says it believes rebels shot down the passenger jet with a Russian-provided SA-11 Buk surface-to-air missile, probably by mistake.

Russia has frequently denied sending heavy weapons into Ukraine but rebel leaders have given conflicting accounts of whether they had control of a Buk launcher at the time the plane was downed.

A piece of debris from flight MH17 at the crash site in Grabove - 25 July 2014
The US has toughened its rhetoric towards Russia since flight MH17 was downed in eastern Ukraine

'Anti-Russian cliches'

The Pentagon said on Friday that it had evidence to suggest Russia is preparing to transfer more rocket launcher systems to the rebels.

"We have indications that the Russians intend to supply heavier and more sophisticated multiple-launch rocket systems in the very near future," Col Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman, said on Friday.

On Thursday, a US state department spokesperson said there was also evidence Russian troops were firing on Ukrainian soldiers from within Russia.

But in a statement, Russia's foreign ministry said the US was pushing "anti-Russian cliches" to protect their allies in Kiev by obscuring the "real reasons for events in Ukraine".

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Moscow says that amid all the accusations of war-mongering, it seems Russia is keen to stress that so far, it has actually shown restraint.


A statement released on Friday said that those targeted are "responsible for action against Ukraine's territorial integrity".

The fighting in eastern Ukraine erupted in April and is believed to have claimed more than 1,000 lives.

On Friday, the Ukrainian army said its troops had come under artillery fire from the Russian side of the border overnight and were attacked by rebels in several areas in the east.

The US has repeatedly accused Russia of fuelling separatist sentiment in eastern Ukraine and has toughened its rhetoric since flight MH17 was downed.

'Spy or a big one?'
Ukraine officials published the latest in a series of audio recordings on Friday that appears to be a conversation between rebels, minutes before MH17 crashed.

In the recording, which has not been independently verified, a rebel tells a commander that a "bird had flown" in his direction.

When the commander asks if it was a "spy or a big one?" the rebel says that he cannot tell because it is flying too high.

About 200 bodies were recovered from the crash site in eastern Ukraine and are being flown to the Netherlands, where forensic experts are working on identifying them.

The Dutch and Australian foreign ministers are negotiating with Ukrainian officials in Kiev to send police to the crash site, which is controlled by the rebels.

They hope that such a deployment would allow experts, who have faced difficulties gaining access to the site, to proceed with the investigation amid continuing fighting in the region.

So... John Kerry is pushing:

[Jacob]

Sanctions on Russia - described as "sweeping": http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/economic-sanctions-russia-eu-governments

Standing out toe me: European capital markets to be closed to Russian banks; and no export of equipment for Russia's oil industry.

Thoughts?

[Jacob]

Also, interview with the leader of the group who probably shot the plane down: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/-sp-ukraine-rebel-igor-bezler-interview-demon

He seems a pretty volatile character.

[Admiral Yi]

I have a sneaking suspicion those sanctions are more gestural than substantive.  Why only state-owned banks?  Obviously that leaves untouched the oligarch wealth piled up in London and generating revenue.  BP operates in Russia (I assume other western companies do as well).  If they transport equipment will it be deemed an "export?"

[Razgovory]

Also, interview with the leader of the group who probably shot the plane down: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/-sp-ukraine-rebel-igor-bezler-interview-demon

He seems a pretty volatile character.

"Don't think for one minute I will hesitate to have you shot," he yelled at the pair of us.

I think that's just how they talk to each other in Russia.

[Grallon]

Will we have a war over this I wonder? A limited nuclear exchange perhaps?  With some medium scale ground movements?



G.

[Admiral Yi]

No.  No.  No.

[garbon]

Will we have a war over this I wonder? A limited nuclear exchange perhaps?  With some medium scale ground movements?



G.

Just when you think he couldn't possibly be a more wizened shrew.