BREAKING NEWS - Malaysian airliner crashes on Russian-Ukrainian border

[Caliga]

I don't think we should be arming Ukraine against Russia Russian separatists.

[CountDeMoney]

In addition to providing unlimited satellite and imagery intel, I want Green Beanies and Delta operators on the ground in a covert advisory capacity macht schnell.

[Agelastus]

The Russians gave the separatists a high altitude SAM.

Sp it's been confirmed then that it wasn't a SAM from that Ukrainian weapons depot that the Rebels seized a few weeks back? I was unaware of this.

[Admiral Yi]

Depends what you mean by confirmed.  CNN showed some video footage released by the Ukrainian government of a Buk missile launcher (with one missile tube empty) driving through seperatist controlled territory.

[Razgovory]

US sats picked it up firing from "separatists" zone of control.

[Malthus]

US sats picked it up firing from "separatists" zone of control.

Yes, but the issue is where they got the weapon from. Did they steal it from an overrun Ukrainan armory, or did the Russians just give it to them?

[derspiess]

That still leaves open the question of whether this was a missile captured by the separatists or one provided to the separatists by the Russians.  My guess is the former, but that still leaves open the possibility of Russian technicians operating the thing.

edit: damnit, Malthus.

[derspiess]

Okay this sounds less ambiguous, if true:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukranian-officials-accuse-rebel-militias-of-moving-bodies-tampering-with-evidence/2014/07/19/bef07204-0f1c-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

KIEV, Ukraine — The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

"We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems," the official said. U.S. intelligence was "starting to get indications . . . a little more than a week ago" that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.

The official's comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists.

[Razgovory]

US sats picked it up firing from "separatists" zone of control.

Yes, but the issue is where they got the weapon from. Did they steal it from an overrun Ukrainan armory, or did the Russians just give it to them?

That strikes me as less of an issue.  For one thing, these aren't really "separatists", anymore then the people that took over Crimea were "separatists".  These are Russian soldiers out of uniform who have crossed the border.  Whether they are Russians who brought their own kit, or Russians who captured some doesn't really matter much.  Also, when did we stop using NATO reporting names?  I heard about this, and was thinking "What the hell is a 'Buc'"?  It's an SA-11 Gadfly.

[grumbler]

That still leaves open the question of whether this was a missile captured by the separatists or one provided to the separatists by the Russians.  My guess is the former, but that still leaves open the possibility of Russian technicians operating the thing.

edit: damnit, Malthus.

I must admit that I don't see any difference between the scenarios.

[Maladict]

I'm not often impressed by Dutch politicians, but foreign affairs minister Timmermans gave a very good speech at the UN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGCBHNcKyI

[Zanza]

That still leaves open the question of whether this was a missile captured by the separatists or one provided to the separatists by the Russians.  My guess is the former, but that still leaves open the possibility of Russian technicians operating the thing.

edit: damnit, Malthus.

I must admit that I don't see any difference between the scenarios.

Me neither. In the end the separatists would not have shot down a passenger plane if Russia hadn't supported them.

[Tamas]

A Hungarian blogger-turned-journalist whom I like pointed out the utter lack of a unified EU answer to this. He stated, and it is hard to argue with, that the EU does not exist, as far as foreign policy is concerned. Its member states, like the Dutch in this case, are left alone to deal with their foreign problems.

[Maladict]

A Hungarian blogger-turned-journalist whom I like pointed out the utter lack of a unified EU answer to this. He stated, and it is hard to argue with, that the EU does not exist, as far as foreign policy is concerned. Its member states, like the Dutch in this case, are left alone to deal with their foreign problems.

True enough. The Dutch government is now considering sending troops to Ukraine to secure the crash site.

[Norgy]

Apparently, two Ukrainian fighter planes have been shot down just now.