From Al Jazeera:
Quote
Deadly clashes erupt in Egypt's Alexandria
At least one dead, 85 wounded in street battles between pro- and anti-Morsi protesters amid rival rallies in Cairo.
Last Modified: 28 Jun 2013 18:06
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Security has been tightened around Cairo ahead of this weekend's planned demonstrations [AFP]
Clashes have broken out in the Egyptian city of Alexandria between anti- and pro-government supporters that have left at least one dead and more than 80 wounded, according to the state news agency MENA.
Some anti-government protesters set fire to the local headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party in the Sidi Gaber area of the city on Friday.
Violence also broke out in other parts of the country with reports of attacks on Muslim Brotherhood offices in several cities and governorates, including Gharbiya, Daqahliyah and Kafr el-Sheikh.
Earlier, several thousand protesters marched along the Alexandria's seafront complaining mainly about economic stagnation.
"There are no services, we can't find diesel or gasoline. We elected [President Mohamed] Morsi, but this is enough," said 42-year-old accountant Mohamed Abdel Latif.
Cairo protests
Meanwhile, thousands of supporters and opponents of Morsi were holding rival demonstrations on the streets of the capital, Cairo.
Morsi supporters gathered at the Rabia el-Adawiya mosque in Nasr City to assert that "[the government's] legitimacy was a red line", in response to opposition plans for a major rally over the weekend to demand president's resignation.
Thousands of Morsi backers filled the street outside the mosque, chanting religious slogans. "It is for God, not for position or power", they shouted.
"I'm here to defend my voice. If you want Morsi to leave, that's fine, but after four years," said Taher Mohamed, manning a stall and selling pro-Morsi gear at the rally.
Naeem Ghanem, another Morsi supporter accused the opposition of working with the US and Israel.
"Don't believe that everyone is against the president, 90 percent of the people are with Morsi," he said.
Hundreds of opposition protesters have gathered in Tahrir Square, demanding the president's resignation, ahead of a separate major demonstration plannned on Sunday - a year after President Morsi took office.
The opposition activists have been holding a sit-in in the Tahrir Square, the iconic epicentre of the protest movement that ousted former President Hosni Mubarak in 2011, since Tuesday.
Deepening divisions among ruling Islamist and the largely secular opposition have heightened tensions in Egypt.
'Civil war'
For the past several days, Morsi's opponents and members of his Muslim Brotherhood have been battling it out in the streets of several cities in the Nile Delta in violence that has left at least four dead and more than 400 injured.
Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood group said all the four people who died in Mansura city were its members.
Some people "think they can topple a democratically elected President by killing his support groups," Gehad el-Haddad, a Brotherhood spokesman, wrote on his Twitter account.
Many fear the clashes are a prelude to more widespread and bloodier battles on Sunday.
In a sign of the charged atmosphere, a senior cleric, Sheik Hassan al-Shafie, from Al-Azhar, the country's most eminent Muslim religious institution, warned of the possibility of "civil war" after the street clashes in the Delta.
The opposition accuses Morsi, who is Egypt's first democratically elected president, of failing to fulfill the objectives of the revolution that forced Hosni Mubarak from power in 2011.
They accuse the ruling Islamists of focusing on consolidating power and failing to address Egypt's economic and social problems.
The army, which heeded mass protests in early 2011 to push aside Mubarak, has warned it will intervene again if there is violence and to defend the "will of the people".
Morsi's supporters have vowed that he will complete his four-year term, which ends in 2016.
On Wednesday, Morsi defended his performance in his first year in office. He admitted that mistakes had been made, but offered no concessions for his opponents.
One of my co-workers is Saudi. He was in Alexandria when a previous round of protests was going on. While he's a more-or-less devout Muslim, he's lived here long enough to take a dim view of Egyptians and of their democracy. His description of the demonstration was that whoever was talking the loudest on the street had the most supporters and pro- and anti- Morsi protestors would switch sides throughout the day.
Quote from: Savonarola on June 28, 2013, 01:24:30 PM
While he's a more-or-less devout Muslim, he's lived here long enough to take a dim view of Egyptians and of their democracy.
Definitely one to talk.
Egypt needs a Coptic Christian absolute monarchy.
I always did sa that the protests was less about any political liberties than the economic malaise gripping the country. No new government can do much about it though as Egypt is overpopulated as hell and the country just cant support that many people without massive imports that they cant pay for.
American Stabbed to Death as Unrest Spreads Across Egypt
'At least three people were killed and hundreds were injured across Egypt on Friday, as antigovernment protesters ransacked Muslim Brotherhood offices and tens of thousands of supporters and opponents of President Mohamed Morsi held dueling rallies in the capital.
While the protests in Cairo remained peaceful, deadly clashes erupted in the port city of Alexandria, where protesters set fire to the Brotherhood's headquarters. Security officials said that among the victims was a United States citizen, a man who was stabbed to death near the headquarters.
...
The violence on Friday provided a dark prelude to planned mass protests on Sunday by Mr. Morsi's opponents, who are demanding that the president step down and early elections be held. Fears about possible violence at the marches have preoccupied the country for weeks and further split Egypt's deeply polarized political class.
...
At least seven people have been killed in violent episodes over the last three days outside Cairo.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/29/world/middleeast/egypt-tensions.html
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QuoteAmerican Stabbed to Death
I look forward to the months' long Republican congressional investigation on how the President allowed this to happen, particularly when he was on THE EXACT SAME CONTINENT AT THE TIME.
Quote from: The Brain on June 28, 2013, 04:09:06 PM
I want to hear what Tampax has to say about his fellow gypsies.
I am whiter than you, crypto-finn
Quote from: Tamas on June 29, 2013, 01:41:55 AM
Quote from: The Brain on June 28, 2013, 04:09:06 PM
I want to hear what Tampax has to say about his fellow gypsies.
I am whiter than you, crypto-finn
A deep dark red. Maroon even.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 28, 2013, 10:36:28 PM
QuoteAmerican Stabbed to Death
I look forward to the months' long Republican congressional investigation on how the President allowed this to happen, particularly when he was on THE EXACT SAME CONTINENT AT THE TIME.
American Killed in Egypt Taught English to ChildrenAn American college student killed Friday during antigovernment violence in Egypt was in the country on an internship to teach young children English while also improving his own skills speaking Arabic, family members said.
...
“Our beloved 21-year-old son and brother Andrew Driscoll Pochter went to Alexandria for the summer, to teach English to 7- and 8-year-old Egyptian children and to improve his Arabic,” the statement said. “He was looking forward to returning to Kenyon College for his junior year and to spending his spring semester in Jordan.”
“He went to Egypt because he cared profoundly about the Middle East, and he planned to live and work there in the pursuit of peace and understanding.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/world/middleeast/american-killed-in-egypt-taught-english-to-children.html
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Quote from: Phillip V on June 28, 2013, 03:58:18 PM
Egypt needs a Coptic Christian absolute monarchy.
it's the only solution. Egypt for the real egyptians
Quote from: Cecil on June 28, 2013, 04:22:49 PM
I always did sa that the protests was less about any political liberties than the economic malaise gripping the country. No new government can do much about it though as Egypt is overpopulated as hell and the country just cant support that many people without massive imports that they cant pay for.
I think that's a more accurate description of Tunisia than of other Arab Spring countries.
In Egypt, similarly to Turkey, an urban educated minority wanted something on the lines of a liberal Western democracy, whereas the uneducated majority wanted a Islamist government. Perhaps the only thing that united the two was dislike of regime crony corruption.
In Libya it was a replay of the same old tired tribal politics.
Quote from: Phillip V on June 29, 2013, 10:03:18 AM
"He went to Egypt because he cared profoundly about the Middle East, and he planned to live and work there in the pursuit of peace and understanding."
He is not the first and will not be the last person killed in the Middle East in that pursuit.
You have to be one courageous person to spend any time in Egypt these days as a foreigner.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 29, 2013, 10:28:28 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 28, 2013, 03:58:18 PM
Egypt needs a Coptic Christian absolute monarchy.
it's the only solution. Egypt for the real egyptians
I predict this solution would: end badly.
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 29, 2013, 10:03:18 AM
"He went to Egypt because he cared profoundly about the Middle East, and he planned to live and work there in the pursuit of peace and understanding."
He is not the first and will not be the last person killed in the Middle East in that pursuit.
You have to be one courageous person to spend any time in Egypt these days as a foreigner.
He was Jewish and an active member of his campus Hillel according to Israeli news. So, it's possible he was not murdered for being an american or a foreigner but because he was a zionist j00.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2013, 02:47:04 PM
In Egypt, similarly to Turkey, an urban educated minority wanted something on the lines of a liberal Western democracy, whereas the uneducated majority wanted a Islamist government. Perhaps the only thing that united the two was dislike of regime crony corruption.
I think that's wrong on Egypt and wrong on Turkey. The economic problem in Egypt is enormous.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 30, 2013, 10:42:18 AM
I think that's wrong on Egypt and wrong on Turkey. The economic problem in Egypt is enormous.
Which is not the same thing as saying the protests that toppled Mubarak were only, or even primarily, about jobs and incomes.
And in Turkey's case it's very, very hard to make the case that the protests have anything at all to do with jobs and incomes.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 01:18:52 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 30, 2013, 10:42:18 AM
I think that's wrong on Egypt and wrong on Turkey. The economic problem in Egypt is enormous.
Which is not the same thing as saying the protests that toppled Mubarak were only, or even primarily, about jobs and incomes.
And in Turkey's case it's very, very hard to make the case that the protests have anything at all to do with jobs and incomes.
In Turkey's case they were protesting the growing power of corporations and the like.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 01:18:52 PMWhich is not the same thing as saying the protests that toppled Mubarak were only, or even primarily, about jobs and incomes.
No, but you could make the same point about the French revolution. That doesn't make the economic situation less important.
QuoteAnd in Turkey's case it's very, very hard to make the case that the protests have anything at all to do with jobs and incomes.
Of course not, that'd be as much a mischaracterisation as yours :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 30, 2013, 01:31:55 PM
No, but you could make the same point about the French revolution. That doesn't make the economic situation less important.
?
I disagree with Cecil that the protests have been about economic malaise.
You say I'm wrong.
I repeat myself, and you say I'm right.
Raz: Where did you get that from?
From the stuff the protesters put out themselves. http://www.dailydot.com/news/occupy-gezi-turkish-protest-taksim-demands/
Quote
Occupy Gezi Demands by Taksim Dayanismasi [Taksim Solidarity]
TO THE PEOPLE AND THE GOVERNMENT!
1. Gezi Park will be preserved as it is. It will not be exposed to any further works under the name of a barracks, mall, residential area, or museum, etc
2. Unarmed and non-violent citizens who are congregating to exercise their constitutional rights will not be exposed to police violence. Those arrested for exercising these rights will be set free. All political, bureaucratic or public staff who have given the order to attack demonstrators exercising their right to assembly, those directing the attacks, and those individuals applying the violence, should be prosecuted in line with relevant legislation.
3. The main aim of the government's privatisation and environmental policies is to monitor public profit. So that they may benefit the citizens of Turkey equally, the transfer, sale and renting out of public spaces, beaches, waters, forests, streams, parks and urban symbols to private companies, large holdings and investors will end.
4. Democracy does not consist only of going to the ballot box to cast a vote. Democracy guarantees the state itself as every group among the people expresses its needs and complaints without experiencing fear, arrest or torture. This resistance is a struggle for freedom of expression and freedom of thought. Those who want to save the park today have received the same treatment as those who advocated the headscarf yesterday. The Gezi Park resistance refuses every type of oppression.
5. We have seen the television channels, newspapers and news websites whose professional duty is to protect the public good and relay correct information have neglected for days this country's citizens, youth and elderly who have been coming to Taksim's Gezi Park to exercise their constitutional rights in a peaceful manner. For the media to have announced our resistance to the people on its fourth day is to disregard their professional duty. In this we call on the media—and especially the media patrons who owe their wealth to the people—to act in an ethical and professional way.
That's not a statement of opposition to large corporations and the like. That's a statement of opposition to the sale or lease of public lands to anyone and the like.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 02:25:16 PM
That's not a statement of opposition to large corporations and the like. That's a statement of opposition to the sale or lease of public lands to anyone and the like.
Anyone who is private company or investor. There is a bunch of other anti-corporate stuff. What did you think it was about?
Quote from: Razgovory on June 30, 2013, 02:57:25 PM
Anyone who is private company or investor. There is a bunch of other anti-corporate stuff. What did you think it was about?
I thought it was about the sale or lease of public lands to anyone and the like.
What other anti-corporate stuff is there?
There's a difference between being anti corporate in the Michael Moore/Bernie Saunders mold and objecting to certain practices, which may or may not be engaged in by incorporated entities.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 03:05:31 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 30, 2013, 02:57:25 PM
Anyone who is private company or investor. There is a bunch of other anti-corporate stuff. What did you think it was about?
I thought it was about the sale or lease of public lands to anyone and the like.
What other anti-corporate stuff is there?
There's a difference between being anti corporate in the Michael Moore/Bernie Saunders mold and objecting to certain practices, which may or may not be engaged in by incorporated entities.
Che Guevera posters were a hint.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 30, 2013, 03:21:06 PM
Che Guevera posters were a hint.
When you say "they" (the protesters) are anti-corporate, do you mean at least one is, a majority is, a signficant minority is, or what?
If there's one pattern to your argumentation I would change if given God-like powers, it would be this tendency to generalize from anecdotal data points. I.e. one Republican in Oklahoma says Muslims should be expelled from the US, you report it as "Republicans want to expel Muslims citizens." (This is a hypothetical Raz.)
It's a relatively effective tactic when trading bumper sticker political slogans, when the objective is to defame your opponent and accuracy is a secondary consideration, but it's not helpful in the context of an open exchange of viewpoints of people trying to come to an understanding of a question like what do these protesters actually want.
Man I'm going nuts these days with the complex sentence structures.
Sounds like the Egyptian military might step in soon.
QuoteCAIRO - Egypt's military on Monday gave the country's political parties an ultimatum to hold a meeting within 48 hours after 16 people were killed during mass protests against the government of President Mohammed Morsi.
In a statement read on state television, General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi called the demonstrations against Morsi an "unprecedented" expression of the popular will.
And he said that if the people's demands were not met within its deadline the Armed Forces would develop a road map to resolve the crisis and oversee the plan's implementation.
"If the demands of the people are not realized within the defined period, it will be incumbent upon (the armed forces)... to announce a road map for the future," said the statement by chief-of-staff General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi. It was followed by patriotic music.
Al-Sisi stressed that the military would remain neutral in politics and maintain its role as protector of the people and the nation's borders.
The statement said the military will "not be a party in politics or rule." But it said the armed forces had a responsibility to act because Egypt's national security was facing a "grave danger."
A source at Egypt's presidential palace said Morsi's office was not told in advance that the 48-hour ultimatum would be issued.
In Cairo's Tahrir Square, the crowd began to chant that the army and the people were one after al-Sisi spoke.
As al-Sisi spoke, President Barack Obama urged all sides to refrain from violence shortly after he arrived in Tanzania.
Early Monday anti-government protesters ransacked the headquarters of Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo.
That followed a day of violence that left at least 16 people dead and more than 700 injured in protests throughout the country.
The attack on the Brotherhood building was bloodiest incident of the weekend's huge and mostly peaceful protests against Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood.
It began after dark Sunday and continued for hours, with guards inside the suburban Cairo building firing on youths hurling fire bombs and rocks. Reuters cited medical and security sources as saying that eight people were killed but the figure could not be independently confirmed by NBC News.
Protesters breached the Cairo compound's defenses and stormed the building. Crowds later carried off furniture, files, rugs, air conditioning units and portraits of Morsi, according to an Associated Press journalist. One protester emerged with a pistol and handed it over to a policeman outside.
Footage on local television showed broken windows, blackened walls and smoke coming out of the building. A fire was still raging on one floor hours after the building was invaded. One protester tore down the Muslim Brotherhood sign from the building's front wall, while another hoisted Egypt's red, black and white flag out an upper-story window and waved it in the air in triumph.
The images were reminiscent of the destruction of the state security headquarters when Hosni Mubarak was toppled in 2011.
A spokesman for the Brotherhood said it would be demanding answers from security officials who failed to protect it. He said two of those inside were injured before a security detail from the movement was able to evacuate all those inside the compound in mid-morning.
Organizers behind Sunday's protests -- who managed to get 22 million signatures calling on Morsi to step down -- said they would give him until Tuesday at 5 p.m. (11 a.m. ET) to meet their demands otherwise they would call for nationwide strikes.
Protesters also demanded early elections, but late on Sunday night word from the presidential palace was that Morsi had no intentions of calling them.
Some anti-Morsi protesters spent Sunday night in dozens of tents pitched in the capital's central Tahrir Square and in front of the president's Ittihadiya Palace. They have vowed to stay there until Morsi resigns. Morsi supporters, meanwhile, went on with their sit-in in front of a major mosque in Cairo.
Sunday's protests were the largest seen in Egypt in the 2½ years of turmoil since the ouster of autocratic Mubarak in February 2011.
A fine use of a billion dollars ever year. Might as well burn it and save everybody the trouble.
Doesn't that quality as a coup? :unsure:
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 29, 2013, 10:03:18 AM
“He went to Egypt because he cared profoundly about the Middle East, and he planned to live and work there in the pursuit of peace and understanding.”
He is not the first and will not be the last person killed in the Middle East in that pursuit.
You have to be one courageous person to spend any time in Egypt these days as a foreigner.
He was a lefty and an Obamazombie, trying to prove how wrong those evil republicans are.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 03:33:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 30, 2013, 03:21:06 PM
Che Guevera posters were a hint.
Republicans want to expel Muslims citizens.
Where do I sign up for this?
Quote from: Siege on July 01, 2013, 02:26:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 29, 2013, 10:03:18 AM
"He went to Egypt because he cared profoundly about the Middle East, and he planned to live and work there in the pursuit of peace and understanding."
He is not the first and will not be the last person killed in the Middle East in that pursuit.
You have to be one courageous person to spend any time in Egypt these days as a foreigner.
He was a lefty and an Obamazombie, trying to prove how wrong those evil republicans are.
He was a Jew.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 01, 2013, 02:45:10 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 01, 2013, 02:26:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 29, 2013, 10:03:18 AM
“He went to Egypt because he cared profoundly about the Middle East, and he planned to live and work there in the pursuit of peace and understanding.”
He is not the first and will not be the last person killed in the Middle East in that pursuit.
You have to be one courageous person to spend any time in Egypt these days as a foreigner.
He was a lefty and an Obamazombie, trying to prove how wrong those evil republicans are.
He was a Jew.
American Jew.
And?
Quote from: DGuller on July 01, 2013, 01:44:48 PM
Doesn't that quality as a coup? :unsure:
I guess that kind of "soft" coup is at least progress...
Raz, you should know by now that I don't play the race card.
Unless I can shamessly use it for my own benefit.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 03:33:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 30, 2013, 03:21:06 PM
Che Guevera posters were a hint.
When you say "they" (the protesters) are anti-corporate, do you mean at least one is, a majority is, a signficant minority is, or what?
If there's one pattern to your argumentation I would change if given God-like powers, it would be this tendency to generalize from anecdotal data points. I.e. one Republican in Oklahoma says Muslims should be expelled from the US, you report it as "Republicans want to expel Muslims citizens." (This is a hypothetical Raz.)
It's a relatively effective tactic when trading bumper sticker political slogans, when the objective is to defame your opponent and accuracy is a secondary consideration, but it's not helpful in the context of an open exchange of viewpoints of people trying to come to an understanding of a question like what do these protesters actually want.
Man I'm going nuts these days with the complex sentence structures.
I was basing my impression on several things. The whole "occupy Taksim", the use of communist iconography, the fact they many are rallying around the old socialist party banner, etc. Are all of them against that, no, but it's at least a significant minority.
Quote from: Siege on July 01, 2013, 02:47:26 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 01, 2013, 02:45:10 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 01, 2013, 02:26:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 29, 2013, 10:03:18 AM
"He went to Egypt because he cared profoundly about the Middle East, and he planned to live and work there in the pursuit of peace and understanding."
He is not the first and will not be the last person killed in the Middle East in that pursuit.
You have to be one courageous person to spend any time in Egypt these days as a foreigner.
He was a lefty and an Obamazombie, trying to prove how wrong those evil republicans are.
He was a Jew.
American Jew.
And?
There aren't enough of you guys around to start throwing under the bus because your conservative friends say so.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 01, 2013, 02:55:16 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 01, 2013, 02:47:26 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 01, 2013, 02:45:10 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 01, 2013, 02:26:58 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on June 29, 2013, 10:03:18 AM
“He went to Egypt because he cared profoundly about the Middle East, and he planned to live and work there in the pursuit of peace and understanding.”
He is not the first and will not be the last person killed in the Middle East in that pursuit.
You have to be one courageous person to spend any time in Egypt these days as a foreigner.
He was a lefty and an Obamazombie, trying to prove how wrong those evil republicans are.
He was a Jew.
American Jew.
And?
There aren't enough of you guys around to start throwing under the bus because your conservative friends say so.
So, you think I am incapable of independent thought and I only repeat what Mark Levin tells me to say?
Quote from: Siege on July 01, 2013, 03:06:48 PM
So, you think I am incapable of independent thought and I only repeat what Mark Levin tells me to say?
I personally don't think that you're incapable of independent thought. I do think, however, that you're incapable of lucid independent thought.
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 01, 2013, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 01, 2013, 01:44:48 PM
Doesn't that quality as a coup? :unsure:
I guess that kind of "soft" coup is at least progress...
Turkey had a couple coups like that; the Coup by Memorandum (1971) and the Postmodern Coup (1997.) The former resulted in a couple years of military rule.
It's tempting to see parallels between this and some of the Turkish Coups. In Turkey they usually happened when political violence was rampant and the economy was in decline like Egypt today.
Coup by Memorandum
HR are bastards.
http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Draft-Egypt-army-road-map-to-change-constitution-318457
QuoteEgypt's armed forces would suspend the constitution and dissolve an Islamist-dominated parliament under a draft political roadmap to be pursued if Islamist President Mohamed Morsi and the liberal opposition fail to agree by Wednesday, military sources said.
The sources told Reuters the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) was still discussing details and the plan, intended to resolve a political crisis that has brought millions of protesters into the streets, could be changed based on political developments and consultations.
Chief-of-staff General Abdel Fattah El-Sisi called in a statement on Monday for Mursi to agree within 48 hours on power-sharing with other political forces, saying the military would otherwise set out its own road-map for the country's future.
I didn't know you could launch a coup by e-mail.
[email protected]
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 01, 2013, 10:32:15 AM
A fine use of a billion dollars ever year. Might as well burn it and save everybody the trouble.
I agree a fine use. Had the US not spent those billions the Egyptian Army would not remain loyal to Washington.
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:hmm:
I presume that is from Arab Spring, Round 1.
They should really leave Michelle out of it.
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:46:20 PM
I presume that is from Arab Spring, Round 1.
I've seen some internet murmurings from Egyptians pissed at Obama for foisting Morsi (sp?) on them.
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 01:49:22 PM
They should really leave Michelle out of it.
Or they could have at least acknowledged her amazing arms.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:46:20 PM
I presume that is from Arab Spring, Round 1.
I've seen some internet murmurings from Egyptians pissed at Obama for foisting Morsi (sp?) on them.
Is that a fact? I thought he was the Muslim Brotherhood dude who won the election. How did Obama foist him on them? I am sure he did in some weird way that is not obvious to me.
Quote from: garbon on July 02, 2013, 01:45:39 PM
:hmm:
Whoever the US isn't actively trying to overthrow is Obama's bitch, whoever the US is actively trying to overthrow is the hero of the Arab peoples.
Edit: You voted for him despite our warnings, now he's your problem Egypt.
To preserve the legacy of the Arab Spring, some general needs to take charge of the situation, marginalize Muslim Brotherhood, and bring some order for the next few decades.
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
To preserve the legacy of the Arab Spring, some general needs to take charge of the situation, marginalize Muslim Brotherhood, and bring some order for the next few decades.
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It is time for Zombie Nasser.
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:46:20 PM
I presume that is from Arab Spring, Round 1.
Nope.
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Yeah! We suck again!
I'm sure they will eventually realize that it's all the Jews' fault.
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:54:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:46:20 PM
I presume that is from Arab Spring, Round 1.
I've seen some internet murmurings from Egyptians pissed at Obama for foisting Morsi (sp?) on them.
Is that a fact? I thought he was the Muslim Brotherhood dude who won the election. How did Obama foist him on them? I am sure he did in some weird way that is not obvious to me.
Jesus guys, how many times do I have to explain to you?
East of the Atlantic, there will be a portion of the population in any country (the more east, the more people) who will believe that everything they do not like is the making of the US. And the Jews at times, although the eastern you go, the less difference is between these two.
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
To preserve the legacy of the Arab Spring, some general needs to take charge of the situation, marginalize Muslim Brotherhood, and bring some order for the next few decades.
:P
To be fair - perhaps the islamist phase is the first step in their learning curve towards democracy... I doubt it but there's a possibility they need to freely chose to be ruled according to islamic principles - enough to get sick and tired of them - in order to flush those out of their system so to speak...
We tend to forget it took *us* centuries to evolve our current democracies... And we also forget the Muslim world hasn't had the Reformation and the Enlightenment we had 500 years ago... It maybe they cannot collectively develop democracy along lines we recognize but we won't know until they've tried. Naturally it could also turn out the way Iran turned... :lol:
G.
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
To preserve the legacy of the Arab Spring, some general needs to take charge of the situation, marginalize Muslim Brotherhood, and bring some order for the next few decades.
I see what you did there!
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:54:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:46:20 PM
I presume that is from Arab Spring, Round 1.
I've seen some internet murmurings from Egyptians pissed at Obama for foisting Morsi (sp?) on them.
Is that a fact? I thought he was the Muslim Brotherhood dude who won the election. How did Obama foist him on them? I am sure he did in some weird way that is not obvious to me.
A quick google search says that the US has been accused of being the main supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:54:30 PM
Is that a fact? I thought he was the Muslim Brotherhood dude who won the election. How did Obama foist him on them? I am sure he did in some weird way that is not obvious to me.
You're asking me to explain the thinking of insane people?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 02:18:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:54:30 PM
Is that a fact? I thought he was the Muslim Brotherhood dude who won the election. How did Obama foist him on them? I am sure he did in some weird way that is not obvious to me.
You're asking me to explain the thinking of insane people?
Oh, come on, you do it all the time.
:D
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 02:18:29 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:54:30 PM
Is that a fact? I thought he was the Muslim Brotherhood dude who won the election. How did Obama foist him on them? I am sure he did in some weird way that is not obvious to me.
You're asking me to explain the thinking of insane people?
Ah. I thought it was something we actually did not some insano conspiracy theory. Because I have a feeling Obama would have preferred they voted for somebody other than the Muslim Brotherhood.
Quote from: garbon on July 02, 2013, 02:11:00 PM
A quick google search says that the US has been accused of being the main supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood :hmm:
Well I think we should do all we can to convince as many people as possible that the Muslim Brotherhood is the tool of the United States.
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:54:30 PM
Is that a fact? I thought he was the Muslim Brotherhood dude who won the election. How did Obama foist him on them? I am sure he did in some weird way that is not obvious to me.
The US has got a lot of blame for Morsi and the MB, especially from secularists. I've even seen Egyptian campaigners citing Republicans moaning about Obama supporting Morsi as an example :lol:
In fairness conspiracy theories in Arab politics aren't that insane, they're often as accurate a description of what's going on as anything else. In this case and many others they're wrong, but the mindset exists for a reason.
Islam and democracy cannot cohexist.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 02:52:16 PM
In fairness conspiracy theories in Arab politics aren't that insane, they're often as accurate a description of what's going on as anything else. In this case and many others they're wrong, but the mindset exists for a reason.
:mellow:
Quote from: citizen k on July 02, 2013, 02:02:02 PM
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Looks like they listen to Glenn Beck as well.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 02:55:33 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 02:52:16 PM
In fairness conspiracy theories in Arab politics aren't that insane, they're often as accurate a description of what's going on as anything else. In this case and many others they're wrong, but the mindset exists for a reason.
:mellow:
Yeah, that thing about how the Mossad was releasing sharks to attack Egyptian swimmers was probably spot on. Or the man eating badgers the British let lose in Iraq.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 01:54:30 PM
Is that a fact? I thought he was the Muslim Brotherhood dude who won the election. How did Obama foist him on them? I am sure he did in some weird way that is not obvious to me.
The US has got a lot of blame for Morsi and the MB, especially from secularists. I've even seen Egyptian campaigners citing Republicans moaning about Obama supporting Morsi as an example :lol:
In fairness conspiracy theories in Arab politics aren't that insane, they're often as accurate a description of what's going on as anything else. In this case and many others they're wrong, but the mindset exists for a reason.
This is why shelf is always wrong on mid-east issues.
Just this week.
- the Muslim Brotherhood are American Stooges
- :Joos were behind the Gezi Park Protests
- Israel is behind the Syrian Rebels
Conspiracies do happen from time to time. It's just that conspiracy theories never ever ever get any of the facts right. The only thing relevant about conspiracy theories is what they tell you about the conspiracy theorists and their relations to facts and reason. David Aaronovich and Daniel Pipes have written on the topic and unlike shelf, they got it right.
You need to be a conspiracy theorist to think that HAMAS is really moderate and secular and the Brotherhood are the muslim equivalent of Christian Democrats.
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 03:10:43 PM
Conspiracies do happen from time to time. It's just that conspiracy theories never ever ever get any of the facts right. The only thing relevant about conspiracy theories is what they tell you about the conspiracy theorists and their relations to facts and reason. David Aaronovich and Daniel Pipes have written on the topic and unlike shelf, they got it right.
Wait, you are using Daniel Pipes as an example of anti-conspiracy theories? The guy who tells us the Obama is an ex-Muslim?
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 03:19:30 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 03:10:43 PM
Conspiracies do happen from time to time. It's just that conspiracy theories never ever ever get any of the facts right. The only thing relevant about conspiracy theories is what they tell you about the conspiracy theorists and their relations to facts and reason. David Aaronovich and Daniel Pipes have written on the topic and unlike shelf, they got it right.
Wait, you are using Daniel Pipes as an example of anti-conspiracy theories? The guy who tells us the Obama is an ex-Muslim?
You really are a brainless idiot. I was using Pipes as an example of an analyst of mid-east conspiracy theories. It's usually the crazy nutbags who are able to analyze the nature of the crazy nutbaggery of others. You are the exception, both crazy, deluded and stupid.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 02:52:16 PM
In fairness conspiracy theories in Arab politics aren't that insane, they're often as accurate a description of what's going on as anything else. In this case and many others they're wrong, but the mindset exists for a reason.
:huh:
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 03:35:53 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 03:19:30 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 03:10:43 PM
Conspiracies do happen from time to time. It's just that conspiracy theories never ever ever get any of the facts right. The only thing relevant about conspiracy theories is what they tell you about the conspiracy theorists and their relations to facts and reason. David Aaronovich and Daniel Pipes have written on the topic and unlike shelf, they got it right.
Wait, you are using Daniel Pipes as an example of anti-conspiracy theories? The guy who tells us the Obama is an ex-Muslim?
You really are a brainless idiot. I was using Pipes as an example of an analyst of mid-east conspiracy theories. It's usually the crazy nutbags who are able to analyze the nature of the crazy nutbaggery of others. You are the exception, both crazy, deluded and stupid.
You really are a charming person.
Raz battles his way to a draw.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 04:28:14 PM
Raz battles his way to a draw.
I just observe that he didn't deny that he was a blithering idiot.
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 04:29:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 04:28:14 PM
Raz battles his way to a draw.
I just observe that he didn't deny that he was a blithering idiot.
I was not accused of blithering.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 04:31:52 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 04:29:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 04:28:14 PM
Raz battles his way to a draw.
I just observe that he didn't deny that he was a blithering idiot.
I was not accused of either idiocy or blithering.
Apparently literacy is something you can't be accused of either.
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 03:35:53 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 03:19:30 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 03:10:43 PM
Conspiracies do happen from time to time. It's just that conspiracy theories never ever ever get any of the facts right. The only thing relevant about conspiracy theories is what they tell you about the conspiracy theorists and their relations to facts and reason. David Aaronovich and Daniel Pipes have written on the topic and unlike shelf, they got it right.
Wait, you are using Daniel Pipes as an example of anti-conspiracy theories? The guy who tells us the Obama is an ex-Muslim?
You really are a brainless idiot. I was using Pipes as an example of an analyst of mid-east conspiracy theories. It's usually the crazy nutbags who are able to analyze the nature of the crazy nutbaggery of others. You are the exception, both crazy, deluded and stupid.
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 04:34:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 04:31:52 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 04:29:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 04:28:14 PM
Raz battles his way to a draw.
I just observe that he didn't deny that he was a blithering idiot.
I was not accused of either idiocy or blithering.
Apparently literacy is something you can't be accused of either.
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 03:35:53 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 03:19:30 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 03:10:43 PM
Conspiracies do happen from time to time. It's just that conspiracy theories never ever ever get any of the facts right. The only thing relevant about conspiracy theories is what they tell you about the conspiracy theorists and their relations to facts and reason. David Aaronovich and Daniel Pipes have written on the topic and unlike shelf, they got it right.
Wait, you are using Daniel Pipes as an example of anti-conspiracy theories? The guy who tells us the Obama is an ex-Muslim?
You really are a brainless idiot. I was using Pipes as an example of an analyst of mid-east conspiracy theories. It's usually the crazy nutbags who are able to analyze the nature of the crazy nutbaggery of others. You are the exception, both crazy, deluded and stupid.
Now find blithering. Why were you reading Daniel Pipes anyway? He's a like you said he's crazy.
Quote from: Tamas on July 02, 2013, 03:53:12 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 02:52:16 PM
In fairness conspiracy theories in Arab politics aren't that insane, they're often as accurate a description of what's going on as anything else. In this case and many others they're wrong, but the mindset exists for a reason.
:huh:
Sheilbh is a contrarian. Film at 23:00.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 04:35:43 PM
Now find blithering. Why were you reading Daniel Pipes anyway? He's a like you said he's crazy.
While crazy and unlike you, he is interesting and capable of forming cogent sentences.
Quote from: Viking on July 02, 2013, 04:37:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 04:35:43 PM
Now find blithering. Why were you reading Daniel Pipes anyway? He's a like you said he's crazy.
While crazy and unlike you, he is interesting and capable of forming cogent sentences.
Is it perhaps because he's a infamous islamaphobe?
What have you read by Pipes, Raz?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 04:40:31 PM
What have you read by Pipes, Raz?
Why? Couple of articles he wrote back during the Iraq war and something about Obama. Something about him being a Muslim.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 04:41:50 PM
Why? Couple of articles he wrote back during the Iraq war and something about Obama. Something about him being a Muslim.
Was that the article in which he argued that Muslims would view him as Muslim because his dad was, it goes through the father's side, and you don't get to choose? I know there was an article like that, don't know if that was by Pipes.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 04:41:50 PM
Why? Couple of articles he wrote back during the Iraq war and something about Obama. Something about him being a Muslim.
Was that the article in which he argued that Muslims would view him as Muslim because his dad was, it goes through the father's side, and you don't get to choose? I know there was an article like that, don't know if that was by Pipes.
Could be, again why?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 04:41:50 PM
Why? Couple of articles he wrote back during the Iraq war and something about Obama. Something about him being a Muslim.
Was that the article in which he argued that Muslims would view him as Muslim because his dad was, it goes through the father's side, and you don't get to choose? I know there was an article like that, don't know if that was by Pipes.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/7/obama-i-have-never-been-a-muslim/?page=all
Pipes is a bit nutty on this issue and both says that he can be seen as a muslim AND suggests that he might at some point behaved as a muslim.
Then again, the other crazy thing he thinks is that we should support Assad because Assad is losing. He is an intelligent and well read man. He does have an interesting take on the mind of the mid-eastern muslim.
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
To preserve the legacy of the Arab Spring, some general needs to take charge of the situation, marginalize Muslim Brotherhood, and bring some order for the next few decades.
I really dislike this most annoying characteristic of late, where US foreign policy no longer supports military strongmen in really goofy uniforms anymore. It worked so well for so long.
Democracy ain't for everybody, goddammit. And it's not always in our best interests for certain nations to have it. Would've thought people figured that out with Iraq already.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 02, 2013, 05:59:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
To preserve the legacy of the Arab Spring, some general needs to take charge of the situation, marginalize Muslim Brotherhood, and bring some order for the next few decades.
I really dislike this most annoying characteristic of late, where US foreign policy no longer supports military strongmen in really goofy uniforms anymore. It worked so well for so long.
Democracy ain't for everybody, goddammit. And it's not always in our best interests for certain nations to have it. Would've thought people figured that out with Iraq already.
The last couple of years have definitely made Russians seem just a little wiser compared to Americans. We all know it was by accident, their ideology of promoting evil throughout the world can sometimes coincide with optimal pragmatic solutions, but still. :hmm:
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 04:49:37 PM
Could be, again why?
I'm trying to figure out if Pipes is an Islamaphobe.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 04:49:37 PM
Could be, again why?
I'm trying to figure out if Pipes is an Islamaphobe.
There are probably more direct and profitable avenues then asking me what he thinks of Obama.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 06:14:53 PM
There are probably more direct and profitable avenues then asking me what he thinks of Obama.
Such as asking what writings of his you've read?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 06:15:59 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 06:14:53 PM
There are probably more direct and profitable avenues then asking me what he thinks of Obama.
Such as asking what writings of his you've read?
Such as reading them yourself. His name popped up a lot back during the war. I remembered him as part of the neo-conservative crowd, and I remember the Obama thing.
This way takes a lot less effort.
Quote from: Tamas on July 02, 2013, 03:53:12 PM
:huh:
There's no tradition of open government, free press, rule of law or much else like that. Historically the Arab world's had government by glowing press release. Given that people are right to suspect that there's something else going on behind the scenes. Not only that but many Arab leaders routinely lie to their people. The conspiracy may be wrong, but given that the alternative is the version peddled by interested politicians and media, the mindset makes a lot of sense and is often, probably, closer to the truth than the official version.
I imagine there's something similar in Hungary with what's motivating Fidesz or with the more corrupt bits of Italy.
To use the Turkish example Viking mentioned. In a thread we had a while ago about some Turkey-Israel spat I mentioned that many Turks I read thought that it wasn't a real argument but a deliberate sideshow. Their view was based on the fact that Erdogan had been pushing for the new constitution. First of all he tried to get the support of the ultra-nationalists and failed. So he turned to the Kurds. The government was negotiating with Ocalan and the minutes of those negotiations were leaked to the Turkish media. Within hours of that happening and making front page news, the government started a row with the Israelis. The (predominately secular) Turkish view was that Erdogan was using his country's foreign policy to distract domestic attention from a controversial issue (negotiating with Ocalan) that would strengthen his hand.
To me that actually seems plausible. When I posted it, I was told it was an example of my soft-headedness towards Islamists, because I suggested there may be another motivation than simple antipathy to Israel, even though what I was suggesting is hardly positive for Erdogan.
QuoteSheilbh is a contrarian. Film at 23:00.
I don't think it's contrarian to think it's understandable that people in dictatorships, or with a history of living under dictatorships have a conspiratorial view of politics. I think it'd be mental if they didn't, everywhere with a petty despot would be like North Korea.
Shelf: that's a reasonable defense of why Ay-rabs are prone to conspiracy theories; that's the non-controversial part of your post.
The sticky part is where you said the conspiracy theories are as accurate as anything else going. That's blatantly not true.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 06:55:08 PM
The sticky part is where you said the conspiracy theories are as accurate as anything else going. That's blatantly not true.
Well for most people in the Arab world they are. There's the conspiracies that people talk about over coffee, just like people in the West do over a beer. Then there's a few vaguely independent, vaguely free private media groups or the state media.
I think the conspiracies are, for most people, as accurate as anything else going. That's part of the reason there are conspiracies.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 07:00:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 06:55:08 PM
The sticky part is where you said the conspiracy theories are as accurate as anything else going. That's blatantly not true.
Well for most people in the Arab world they are. There's the conspiracies that people talk about over coffee, just like people in the West do over a beer. Then there's a few vaguely independent, vaguely free private media groups or the state media.
I think the conspiracies are, for most people, as accurate as anything else going. That's part of the reason there are conspiracies.
There are conspiracies. Members of the government conspire with members of the army and the judiciary to steal money from the state all the time. Religious nutjobs conspire with each other in caves in afghanistan to fly planes into buildings.
The mistake that shelf is making is to consider the conspiracy THEORIES reasonable despite them being fucking crazy and thus concluding that the people are reasonable despite them believing in crazy conspiracy theories and deciding that since these people really are reasonable they don't mean when they say batshit crazy violent evil things based on conspiracy theories.
I think in shelf's view of the world, and I think he'll agree with me that this is his world view, most if not all conflicts can be resolved by reasonable people from each side negotiating in good faith. So he postulates that "the other" is reasonable to sustain that world view.
A Conspiracy Theory is NOT a reasoned analysis or guess about what the true underlying mechanics are for the motivations of powerful people. They are backward defenses of conclusions that are not supported by facts. "You" know the j00s did it so you find an explanation for how they are responsible for the price of bread in Alexandria going up 10%. The more convoluted the explanation is and the more facts not in evidence must be assumed the crazier you are.
The Aaronovich thesis is just the above, that they justify prejudice and protect highly valued ideas and beliefs from question. The Pipes thesis is that these people actually believe this shit. Given that pipes is one of "these people who actually believes this shit" I'm inclined to believe him just like I'm inclined to appreciate the take on salafism that fundamentalist christians have and the take on wahhabism that literalist christians have.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 07:00:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 06:55:08 PM
The sticky part is where you said the conspiracy theories are as accurate as anything else going. That's blatantly not true.
Well for most people in the Arab world they are. There's the conspiracies that people talk about over coffee, just like people in the West do over a beer. Then there's a few vaguely independent, vaguely free private media groups or the state media.
I think the conspiracies are, for most people, as accurate as anything else going. That's part of the reason there are conspiracies.
Who cares what most people think? There is such a thing as objective facts. And conspiracy theories are almost without exception untrue.
Now, from a pragmatic policy perspective one is forced to care about what people believe and how that will color their reaction to your plans, but from the way you write it seems you are going far beyond that to assert that if people believe it, it's reality.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 04:07:29 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 02, 2013, 07:00:17 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 02, 2013, 06:55:08 PM
The sticky part is where you said the conspiracy theories are as accurate as anything else going. That's blatantly not true.
Well for most people in the Arab world they are. There's the conspiracies that people talk about over coffee, just like people in the West do over a beer. Then there's a few vaguely independent, vaguely free private media groups or the state media.
I think the conspiracies are, for most people, as accurate as anything else going. That's part of the reason there are conspiracies.
Who cares what most people think? There is such a thing as objective facts. And conspiracy theories are almost without exception untrue.
Now, from a pragmatic policy perspective one is forced to care about what people believe and how that will color their reaction to your plans, but from the way you write it seems you are going for beyond that to assert that if people believe it, it's reality.
It's either that or he thinks that they are true.
what Sheilbh refers to does exists under censored press obviously, but it is important to distinguish between trying to decipher what is behind heavily censored press content, and coming up with utter lunatic bullshit. Bullshit, might I add, that is usually fuelled by the regime itself.
if I was to believe Sheilbh, I should need to consider the local conteo that the EU is after Orban so that they could colonise us, valid. oh and colonise us for the Jews if you really go down to ground level "salt of the earth" theories
Looks like a civil war is definitely brewing
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/03/19261466-egypts-president-top-general-ready-to-die-as-power-struggle-enters-final-hours?lite
QuoteEgypt's president, top general ready to die as power struggle enters 'final hours
By Charlene Gubash and Ian Johnston, NBC News
CAIRO -- Egypt's president and its top general both said they were ready to die Wednesday as the struggle for power in the country neared its climax amid fears of civil war.
The military gave President Mohammed Morsi until around 5 p.m. local time Wednesday (11 a.m. ET) to meet the demands of protesters calling for his ouster. Monday's 48-hour ultimatum has been widely interpreted as a call for the Islamist to quit and some of Morsi's supporters have denounced it as a "military coup."
A senior member of a hardline Islamist party allied to Morsi told Reuters Wednesday that they were trying to broker a "peaceful, constitutional transfer" of power that would avoid bloodshed and a coup.
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"We find ourselves faced with the necessity of convincing the president to accept a referendum on early presidential elections," Tarek al-Zumar, of ex-armed group Gamaa Islamiya, said in a telephone interview. "This is what we hope will be reached in the next few hours."
At least 16 people were killed and about 200 injured in clashes with security forces at Cairo University overnight, the Ministry of Health said.
Millions have taken to the streets in recent days with opposition protesters seeking Morsi's ouster at times clashing with supporters of Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood and security forces. At least 16 were killed and hundreds were injured during massive weekend demonstrations marking one year since Morsi's election.
"I am prepared to sacrifice my blood for the sake of the security and stability of this homeland," Morsi said in a 45-minute speech that ran past midnight local time into Wednesday.
The army responded early Wednesday with a Facebook post titled "The Final Hours."
The post on the official Facebook page of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF), headed by Gen. Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, read: "The Commander of the Armed Forces said that it is an 'honor' for us to die rather than for the Egyptian people to be threatened or terrorized. We swear to God to sacrifice with our blood for Egypt and its people against any terrorist, extremist, or ignoramus ... Long live Egypt and its proud people."
Protest movement Tamarod called for its supporters to rally at the headquarters of the Republican Guard - where Morsi is believed to be staying - at 4 p.m. local time (10 a.m. ET), just ahead of the deadline.
The military said Monday that it would impose its own "road map" for the future if Morsi does not meet the protesters' demands by Wednesday.
The demonstrators insist Morsi must call fresh elections and stand down to allow a temporary government to take over.
The anti-government protesters in Cairo's Tahrir Square have feted the army for stepping in, while President Barack Obama and the United Nations have urged Morsi to listen to Egypt's people.
In Wednesday's speech, Morsi accused loyalists of his predecessor Hosni Mubarak – "remnants of the old regime" - of fighting against democracy and challenging his leadership through the current wave of protests.
His democratic election and the legitimacy it enshrined were the main themes of a speech, during which Morsi's tone often grew loud and passionate.
In his address, he also asked Egyptians not to confront the military or use violence against its forces, the police or the interior ministry.
Earlier in the day, Morsi demanded that the armed forces withdraw their ultimatum, saying he would not be dictated to.
"President Mohammed Morsi asserts his grasp on constitutional legitimacy and rejects any attempt to deviate from it, and calls on the armed forces to withdraw their warning and refuses to be dictated to internally or externally," a tweet from the Egyptian presidency account said, according to Reuters.
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The Brotherhood's political wing called Tuesday for mass counter-demonstrations to "defend constitutional legitimacy and express their refusal of any coup."
But the biggest pro-Morsi rally in a Cairo suburb appeared to attract around 100,000 supporters, Reuters journalists said.
Senior Brotherhood leader Mohamed El-Beltagy told the crowd: "We give our lives in sacrifice for this great legitimacy. ... We swear by almighty God to protect the will of these people and to not let it go, even if in doing this we sacrifice our souls."
The crisis could have a significant effect on the global economy.
The benchmark price of crude oil for delivery in August rose by $2.22 to $101.82 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange, the highest since early May last year, The Associated Press reported.
Egypt is not an oil producer but its control of the Suez Canal — one of the world's busiest shipping lanes, which links the Mediterranean with the Red Sea — gives it a crucial role in maintaining global energy supplies.
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Since the deadline is 5pm my time, I have demanded snacks be on hand for my Egypt TV watching.
Also, Tool's Vicarious will be playing in the background.
Quote from: Viking on July 03, 2013, 06:52:47 AM
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One-way only?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 02, 2013, 05:59:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 02, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
To preserve the legacy of the Arab Spring, some general needs to take charge of the situation, marginalize Muslim Brotherhood, and bring some order for the next few decades.
I really dislike this most annoying characteristic of late, where US foreign policy no longer supports military strongmen in really goofy uniforms anymore. It worked so well for so long.
Democracy ain't for everybody, goddammit. And it's not always in our best interests for certain nations to have it. Would've thought people figured that out with Iraq already.
Whoa, CdM posting something that makes sense? Impossible!
What have you done with CdM, you evil alien?
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2013, 07:43:16 AM
Since the deadline is 5pm my time, I have demanded snacks be on hand for my Egypt TV watching.
Also, Tool's Vicarious will be playing in the background.
You're going to be disappointed. Don't think this is going to go down like Tiananmen did on Monday Night Crackdown.
An obvious cynical ploy from the Obama Administration to affect the 2014 elections.
QuoteU.S. Marines in Europe Getting Ready for Egyptian Chaos
Some of the 500 Marines belonging to the Corps' Special-Purpose Marine Air-Ground Task Force Crisis Response Team have been moved from Moron, Spain to Sigonella, Italy to be closer to Egypt should things go very wrong there, Stars and Stripes reports this morning.
"The reason we are here is to provide a scalable force to respond to unexpected crisis," Maj. Zane Crawford, the task force's operations officer, said in a USMC release in May. "We can rapidly deploy to support missions, such as embassy reinforcement, tactical recovery of aircraft, and personnel and noncombatant evacuation operations."
Citing unnamed sources, CNN reported last week that the Marines have been told to be ready to be airborne in 60 minutes after deployment orders, but Army Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman, wouldn't confirm, saying the military doesn't comment on specific readiness postures."
The U.S. Embassy in Cairo has been closed since Sunday.
You know, some poor bastard in Cairo's probably trying to get his driver's license renewed, and he can't get it done with all this bullshit going on.
Isn't the deadline 5PM Egyptian time, ie. just passed? Tuning in to CNN.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 09:59:21 AM
An obvious cynical ploy from the Obama Administration to affect the 2014 elections.
Has nothing to do with Benghazigate.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 10:04:11 AM
You know, some poor bastard in Cairo's probably trying to get his driver's license renewed, and he can't get it done with all this bullshit going on.
Damnit, all the police are down at Tahrir and not a single one here at the EgyptoDMV to take my bribe to get the license renewed....
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2013, 10:11:32 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 09:59:21 AM
An obvious cynical ploy from the Obama Administration to affect the 2014 elections.
Has nothing to do with Benghazigate.
Other than preventing another Benghazigate for the GOP to chase their tails with for the next year.
Are we there yet? :yawn:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 10:15:51 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2013, 10:11:32 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 09:59:21 AM
An obvious cynical ploy from the Obama Administration to affect the 2014 elections.
Has nothing to do with Benghazigate.
Other than preventing another Benghazigate for the GOP to chase their tails with for the next year.
They'll create another scandal to keep the base rabid when they need it.
"When was the President made aware that the flag in the basement of the state department had only 48 stars? Was sort of corruption is this? Did someone in the Administration steal those stars? Did you think you could get away with it? Or is it simply incompetence, can the people of the state Department not count? If I were President you'd all be out of job" -Rand Paul in the 2014 'Flaggate hearings'.
Meh, Morsi is stalling, by waving in early elections.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 09:57:56 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2013, 07:43:16 AM
Since the deadline is 5pm my time, I have demanded snacks be on hand for my Egypt TV watching.
Also, Tool's Vicarious will be playing in the background.
You're going to be disappointed. Don't think this is going to go down like Tiananmen did on Monday Night Crackdown.
These primitive screwheads will fuck something up.
Greg Neubeck•10 months ago−
Hey Barack: it was you who told an Islamic dinner - "I am one of
you."; it was you who on ABC News referenced - "My Muslim faith." it was you
who gave $100 million in U.S. taxpayer funds to re-build foreign mosques: it was
you who wrote that in the event of a conflict -"I will stand with the Muslims."
; it was you who assured the Egyptian Foreign Minister that - "I am a Muslim."
it was you who bowed in submission before the Saudi king; it was you who sat for
20yrs in a Liberation Theology Church condemning Christianity and professing
Marxism; it was you who exempted Muslims from penalties under Obamacare that the
rest of us have to pay; it was you who purposefully omitted - "endowed by our
Creator" - from your recitation of The Declaration Of Independence; it was you
who mocked the Bible and Jesus Christ's Sermon On The Mount while repeatedly
referring to the HOLY Quran;
it was you who traveled the Islamic world
denigrating the United States Of America; it was you who instantly threw the
support of your administration behind the building of the Cordova Victory mosque
overlooking the hallowed crater of the World Trade Center; it was you who
refused to attend the National Prayer Breakfast, but hastened to host an Islamic
prayer breakfast at the WH; it was you who ordered both Georgetown Univ. and
Notre Dame to shroud all vestiges of Jesus Christ BEFORE you would agree to go
there to speak, but in contrast, you have NEVER requested that the mosques you
have visited adjust their decor; it was you who appointed anti-Christian
fanatics to your Tsar Corps; it was you who appointed rabid Islamists to
Homeland Security;
it was you who said that NASA's "foremost mission" was an
outreach to Muslim communities; it was you who as an Illinois Senator were the
ONLY individual who would speak in favor of infanticide; it was you who were the
first President not to give a Christmas Greeting from the WH, and went so far as
to hang photos of Chairman Mao on the WH tree; it was you who curtailed the
military tribunals of all Islamic terrorists; it was you who refused to condemn
the Ft. Hood Islamic terrorist; it is you who has refused to speak-out
concerning the horrific executions of women throughout the Muslim culture, but
yet, have submitted Arizona to the UN for investigation of hypothetical
human-rights abuses;
it was you who when queried in India refused to acknowledge
the true extent of radical global Jihadists, and instead profusely praised Islam
in a country that is 82% Hindu and the victim of numerous Islamic terrorists
assaults; it was you who funneled $900 Million in U.S. taxpayer $s to Hamas; it
was you who ordered the USPS to honor the MUSLIM holiday with a new
commemorative stamp; it was you who directed our UK Embassy to conduct outreach
to help "empower" the British Muslim community; it was you who embraced the
fanatical Muslim Brotherhood in your quest to overthrow the Egyptian President,
Mubarak;
it was you who funded mandatory Arabic language and culture studies in
Grammar schools across our country; it is you who follows the Muslim custom of
not wearing any form of jewelry during Ramadam; it is you who NOW departs for
Hawaii over the Christmas season so as to avoid past criticism for NOT
participating in seasonal WH religious events; it was you who
were un-characteristically quick to join the chorus of the Muslim Brotherhood to
depose Egypt's Hosni Mubarak, formerly America's strongest ally in North Africa;
but, remain muted in your non-response to the Brotherhood led slaughter of
Egyptian Christians; do we really need to go on! Barack, you may be a lot
of things; but, for certainty, you are no Christian. Obama, who refers to himself as: "A man of Africa", is precisely the
type of 'divided loyalties" individual that our Founders attempted to prohibit
from ascendancy to the presidency when they constructed our Constitution.
Greg Neubeck
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2013, 10:56:59 AM
These primitive screwheads will fuck something up.
Maybe Lara Logan gets fingerbanged again. This time on tape.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 11:02:30 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2013, 10:56:59 AM
These primitive screwheads will fuck something up.
Maybe Lara Logan gets fingerbanged again. This time on tape.
Supposedly some 22 year old dutch chick got gang banged.
Siege, did someone crack open your skull and powerwash away all that goo inside? Serious question.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2013, 11:03:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 11:02:30 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2013, 10:56:59 AM
These primitive screwheads will fuck something up.
Maybe Lara Logan gets fingerbanged again. This time on tape.
Supposedly some 22 year old dutch chick got gang banged.
I doubt it was a proper gang bang-bang. Those goofs don't like to soil their penises with women that aren't their wives. Ergo, finger bang-bangs.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 11:14:26 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2013, 11:03:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 11:02:30 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2013, 10:56:59 AM
These primitive screwheads will fuck something up.
Maybe Lara Logan gets fingerbanged again. This time on tape.
Supposedly some 22 year old dutch chick got gang banged.
I doubt it was a proper gang bang-bang. Those goofs don't like to soil their penises with women that aren't their wives. Ergo, finger bang-bangs.
Oh, you are sooo wrong.
Non-muslim women, and this include muslims of diferent sects, are all fair game for gang rape.
In iraq reason number one young males joined the islamic state of iraq or the shia militias was to get sex.
Raping infidels is the only way they can get sex.
Quote from: Siege on July 03, 2013, 11:21:46 AM
Oh, you are sooo wrong.
Non-muslim women, and this include muslims of diferent sects, are all fair game for gang rape.
In iraq reason number one young males joined the islamic state of iraq or the shia militias was to get sex.
Raping infidels is the only way they can get sex.
Maybe infidel little boys, not so sure about infidel little girls.
And really; the #1 reason to join a militia was to get sex? Really?
So apparently it's going down right now.
Tanks in the streets, travel ban on Morsi and his crew, a televised statement to come soon, Morsi remaining defiant.
Anything to see on CNN yet?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
Quote from: Siege on July 03, 2013, 11:21:46 AM
Oh, you are sooo wrong.
Non-muslim women, and this include muslims of diferent sects, are all fair game for gang rape.
In iraq reason number one young males joined the islamic state of iraq or the shia militias was to get sex.
Raping infidels is the only way they can get sex.
Maybe infidel little boys, not so sure about infidel little girls.
And really; the #1 reason to join a militia was to get sex? Really?
the raping is a big part of it.
Some of the Syria-dickheads that left Belgium to go fight there were caught on tape boasting abuot the 30 or so women they raped and murdered.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 03, 2013, 11:51:46 AM
the raping is a big part of it.
Some of the Syria-dickheads that left Belgium to go fight there were caught on tape boasting abuot the 30 or so women they raped and murdered.
Raping is a part of any aspect of warfare, film at 11. It's just not the principal reason to pick up arms, though; it's a fringe benefit.
Quote from: DGuller on July 03, 2013, 11:50:27 AM
Anything to see on CNN yet?
CNN is focused like a hawk on the Zimmerman case. Fox is showing a bunch of people waving Egyptian flags. No visible blood in the streets yet.
Quote from: Kleves on July 03, 2013, 11:58:17 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 03, 2013, 11:50:27 AM
Anything to see on CNN yet?
CNN is focused like a hawk on the Zimmerman case. Fox is showing a bunch of people waving Egyptian flags. No visible blood in the streets yet.
Good to hear. I'm not home yet, so I can't watch it anyway.
A military helicopter just flew over the square. Crowd went bonkers. Must be carrying Bruce Springsteen.
Apparently the revolution will be televised.
Quote from: Viking on July 03, 2013, 12:16:47 PM
Apparently the revolution will be televised.
When does it start?
He's offering a coalition gov't?
Quote from: DGuller on July 03, 2013, 12:19:02 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 03, 2013, 12:16:47 PM
Apparently the revolution will be televised.
When does it start?
It started 5pm Cairo time earlier on today.
Damn it, I'm missing it. :mad: :(
Quote from: garbon on July 03, 2013, 12:20:19 PM
He's offering a coalition gov't?
The military just about confirmed that they are taking over. To restore democracy of course. Pro-Mursi people claim it is a military coup. Anti-Mursi people claim it was him who couped (they have a point if you remember the whole ordeal with the constitution and such), and no democracy is being restored.
A boring military coup, just a bunch of happy Egyptians waving flags. :angry:
I remember 20 years ago, when I came home from school, and it turned out that I missed most of the run-up to this:
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I'm getting a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that I'm about to miss something like this again. :(
Quote from: DGuller on July 03, 2013, 12:35:41 PM
I'm getting a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that I'm about to miss something like this again. :(
I doubt you'll feel like you missed much, both because you don't have the same connection to Egypt and because it's just excessive flagweaving atm.
Quote from: Tamas on July 03, 2013, 12:28:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 03, 2013, 12:20:19 PM
He's offering a coalition gov't?
The military just about confirmed that they are taking over. To restore democracy of course. Pro-Mursi people claim it is a military coup. Anti-Mursi people claim it was him who couped (they have a point if you remember the whole ordeal with the constitution and such), and no democracy is being restored.
"Interesting" to see where this all may go now.
Quote from: Liep on July 03, 2013, 12:58:00 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 03, 2013, 12:35:41 PM
I'm getting a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that I'm about to miss something like this again. :(
I doubt you'll feel like you missed much, both because you don't have the same connection to Egypt and because it's just excessive flagweaving atm.
I hate that. I only need the one, thank you very much.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 03, 2013, 11:51:46 AM
the raping is a big part of it.
Some of the Syria-dickheads that left Belgium to go fight there were caught on tape boasting abuot the 30 or so women they raped and murdered.
Raping is a part of any aspect of warfare, film at 11. It's just not the principal reason to pick up arms, though; it's a fringe benefit.
You are looking at this with your western mindset. You take sex for granted, and so see it as just a "perk". For good muslim boys, sex will only come after marriage, ussually around the age of 30, since you have to have an income to maintain your bride before her parents give it to you. So lets number this thing:
1- In muslim societies, marriage occurrs late for males and early for females.
2- There is no sex outaside marriage. You have to be married for sex. There is no hooking up at the club.
3- Most mulims, over 90% from my experience, can only afford one wife, despite islam being a polygamist religion.
4- If you are a muslim, and you don't like your wife, you cannot divorce her. You can accusse her of adultery and kill her, but you would have to prove it if you are outside of Aghanistan and Pakistan. It is kind of hard to prove adultery on a married woman. Young unmarried girls are easy to condemn of adultery because they just look at the virginity thing. If she ain't virgin, she dead. And if she is virgine and the family wants her dead, they can accussed her of dishonoring the family and kill her anyway. Pretty rough.
Also, in dealing with a muslim wife you have to account for the wife's family. In general, it is not easy to get rid of a muslim wife.
Therefore, rape of infidels is not only a perk, and not only for unmarried men, but the driving force behind strife and recruitment.
Military guy announces he takes power: more flags and more fireworks at the Tahrir square. Someone's going to lose an eye or a hand or something, no safety goggles anywhere.
Egypt must really be fucked. I understand why they were afraid of Mr. Muslim Brother Mursi becoming ever more arrogant, but... what was it, 6 months ago that such crowds rallied against the military "restoring order"? Now they celebrate military takeover.
Hope they give some credit to Obama. :mad:
Quote from: Tamas on July 03, 2013, 02:13:23 PM
Egypt must really be fucked. I understand why they were afraid of Mr. Muslim Brother Mursi becoming ever more arrogant, but... what was it, 6 months ago that such crowds rallied against the military "restoring order"? Now they celebrate military takeover.
They had an Egyptian on via phone who said "No, this is not a military coup, the military is our tool to win the revolution back". Yeah, good luck with that.
Didn't they have a military government in Egypt from 1952 to 2012? What's supposed to change with this one?
I like how the crowd are just grabbing military/police personnel and throwing them up in the air and half heartedly catches them again. The officers put up a brave display and then run for it when they get down on the ground. :lol:
They all need to get back to work.
Quote from: Zanza on July 03, 2013, 02:48:52 PM
Didn't they have a military government in Egypt from 1952 to 2012? What's supposed to change with this one?
the context is different. There's an elected assembly, with reasonable people you can work with to draft a decent Constitution. The army has been ousted by popular protest, and they're back with the people at their back. I think they know the wind is changing, and they can't hope to maintain power without the people.
That's what the optimist in me thinks, at least.
They should go back to pharaonic rule. Keep them out of trouble with pyramid-building.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 02:57:27 PM
They all need to get back to work.
look, it's not like anybody in that country has one...
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 03:00:24 PM
They should go back to pharaonic rule. Keep them out of trouble with pyramid-building.
bad idea, cheaper to do with imported chinese labour.. the locals might not appreciate the chinks' predeliction for pork
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Where's my main man Tantawi? Who's this young whippersnapper?
In the Cairo Metro they have a couple woman only cars on every train. I thought it was a mild nuisance; but I see it did serve a vital purpose:
Quote
Women sexually assaulted in Egypt protests
Human Rights Watch says mobs "assaulted and in some cases raped at least 91 women" in Cairo's Tahrir Square.
Egypt's Tahrir Square has seen nearly hundred women falling victim to "rampant" sexual attacks during the past four days of protests against President Mohamed Morsi, Human Rights Watch (HRW) said.
The global rights watchdog said on Wednesday that the mobs sexually assaulted "and in some cases raped at least 91 women" in Tahrir Square amid a climate of impunity.
Citing figures of the Egyptian Operation Anti-Sexual Harassment/Assault, that runs a hotline for victims of sexual assault, HRW said that there were 46 such attacks against women on Sunday, 17 on Monday and 23 on Tuesday.
Another women's rights group, Nazra for Feminist Studies, reported that there were five similar attacks on Friday, said HRW.
Sexual harassment has long been common in Egypt, but its increasing occurrence and ferocity has shaken the protest movement. A large number of women had fallen victim to gang assaults too in the square - the epicenter of 2011 revolution.
Security vacuum
Some say the attacks are staged by thugs who are abusing a security vacuum and confident of escaping prosecution. Others say the assaults are organised to scare women off from joining protests and to stain the image of the anti-government demonstrations.
"The rampant sexual attacks during the Tahrir Square protests highlight the failure of the government and all political parties to face up to the violence that women in Egypt experience on a daily basis in public spaces," said Joe Stork, HRW's deputy Middle East director.
HRW also called on Egyptian officials and political leaders "across the spectrum to condemn and take immediate steps to address the horrific levels of sexual violence" in the iconic square.
"These are serious crimes that are holding women back from participating fully in the public life of Egypt at a critical point in the country's development," the New York-based watchdog said.
Several women required surgical intervention after the attacks, some were "beaten with metal chains, sticks, and chairs, and attacked with knives," HRW said.
HRW said the attackers needed to be brought to justice but "the government response has been to downplay the extent of the problem or to seek to address it through legislative reform alone."
What a crappy people. They are filth.
Quote from: Legbiter on July 03, 2013, 03:22:00 PM
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Where's my main man Tantawi? Who's this young whippersnapper?
Now see, that's the kind of guy US policy should be supporting. Look at that over-sized beret. Those masculine collar boards. Those epaulettes you could do a half-gainer off of.
Now that's the kind of strongman we want there.
Meanwhile in Libya:
QuoteLibya deadly car bomb near Benghazi hospital
A car bomb explosion near a hospital in the Libyan city of Benghazi has killed several people, officials say.
The death toll is unclear. Local officials initially said nine people had been killed. A hospital spokesman later said three bodies had been found.
The blast follows a string of bombings in the eastern city in recent days.
Security remains precarious in Libya since the uprising against long-time leader Muammar Gaddafi, with protests by militias and attacks by Islamists.
'Totally destroyed'
The head of Jalaa hospital told AFP news agency that the hospital had received three bodies, as well as body parts that could belong to other victims.
He also said another nine people had been wounded, three of them critically.
The explosives were placed in a grey Toyota near the hospital, officials and eyewitnesses say.
Libyan Deputy Interior Minister Abdullah Massoud was quoted as saying that the bomb had "totally destroyed a restaurant and seriously damaged nearby buildings".
So far no group has said it carried out Monday's attack in Benghazi, which is regarded as the cradle of the revolution that ousted Gaddafi in 2011.
Angry crowds later gathered at the scene, blaming militants for the bombing and urging the authorities to drive them out of the city.
Many demonstrators chanted "Rise, Benghazi!"
"This is the flesh of our sons, this is what the militias have given us," one of the protesters was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency. "All we need here are the police and the army."
At least three police stations were bombed in Benghazi last week - causing damage but not casualties
In April, a car bomb exploded outside the French embassy in the capital, Tripoli, wounding two French guards and several residents
In September 2012, the US consulate in Benghazi was attacked by armed men, leading to the killing of ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other American officials
Earlier this month, the UK said it had withdrawn some of its embassy staff in Libya in response to what London described as "ongoing political uncertainty".
Further BBC Analysis:
QuoteBBC News, Tripoli
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A sombre-looking prime minister addressed the nation with several members of congress standing around him.
Ali Zidan offered his condolences and spoke of the authorities' inability to take the strict measures needed to prevent this kind of attack. But he acknowledged it was their duty to do so.
The bombings raise many questions, but one thing is clear - the nature of these attacks has changed. According to observers in Benghazi, the initial attacks on government institutions were part of a power struggle with local extremist groups.
People are increasingly asking who backs these groups. Accusations in recent days have focused on the Muslim Brotherhood and the state of Qatar - denied by both.
Monday's attack has left a bitter sentiment among the people of Benghazi. They are angry and on the streets. The transitional authorities cannot dampen their fury by promising protection that they cannot provide in the birthplace of the Libyan uprising.
And some Monday morning quarter-backing from CNN:
QuoteObama missed out on Arab Spring
By Frida Ghitis, Special to CNN
updated 4:42 PM EDT, Wed July 3, 2013
Editor's note: Frida Ghitis is a world affairs columnist for The Miami Herald and World Politics Review. A former CNN producer and correspondent, she is the author of "The End of Revolution: A Changing World in the Age of Live Television." Follow her on Twitter: @FridaGColumns.
(CNN) -- The 2011 Arab uprisings presented the United States with a historic opportunity to take a clear stand on the side of freedom and democracy and strengthen its own standing in the process. Incredibly, the Obama administration has blundered and stumbled, with a response marked by timidity and caution.
As a result, America appears weaker, less influential and less trusted, while the Arab Middle East continues to seethe with instability and violence.
Today, as the Egyptian state shudders, with millions taking to the streets infuriated with a government that is taking the country down a path they do not trust, and as Syrians continue to slaughter each other, with death toll approaching 100,000, there is no side in the conflicts that feels warmly toward America.
The most astonishing part is that the uprisings across the Middle East and North Africa were launched by young, progressive idealists, whose objective was to reshape their countries by overthrowing entrenched dictators and bringing pluralism and democracy.
The DNA of the revolution made it a natural for American support.
Granted, the uprisings also targeted strong American allies, such as Egypt's now-deposed president, Hosni Mubarak. But once the dictator fell, America should have made a much stronger case for the fundamental principles of liberal democracy.
It is extraordinary this is happening under Obama, the leader who took the dramatic step of traveling to Cairo just months into his first term and delivering a landmark speech that vowed to end the "cycle of suspicion and discord" between Americans and Muslims, and affirmed his belief that all people "yearn for certain things," including freedom, democracy, and genuine justice.
When the people took the reins of history into their own hands, Obama's poetry crashed into geopolitical realities, not to mention domestic political considerations.
The choices, in fairness, were not easy. But Obama could have done much better.
Coup worsens Obama's Egypt policy headache
In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood, a group with a deeply anti-Western, anti-American ideology, won the elections. Washington was right in trying to work with a government that had been elected by the Egyptian people. But it went too far, ignoring the fundamental principles of democracy that America should have kept at the forefront of the agenda.
Washington had to work with Cairo -- and hence, with the government of President Mohammed Morsy -- but it didn't have to keep as quiet as it did when Morsy and his supporters started pushing away from democratic principles, undermining freedoms and laying the groundwork for a state that would change the character of the country. The pan-Islamist vision of the Brotherhood is deeply offensive to supporters of equality for women, legal protections for minorities, free media, and respect for the views of the opposition.
Instead, in pursuit of stability, the U.S. held its tongue. Occasionally, American officials spoke out, as when the ambassador to Egypt, Anne Patterson, told a small group in Alexandria that "democracy needs a healthy and active civil society."
But when the government went after that same civil society, arresting and then convicting 43 members of nongovernmental organizations -- including 16 Americans -- and sentencing them to prison terms on sham charges, the U.S. kept its voice low, to the dismay of its friends.
The Obama administration has been so timid, so eager to stay out of the fray, that a few weeks before the verdict against the pro-democracy activists, Secretary of State John Kerry passed up the opportunity to take a stand for the workers, and for democracy, by quietly waiving the human rights preconditions of U.S. aid to Egypt and thus allowing $1.3 billion in aid to go forward.
There were better ways to play that hand. America threw away its aces.
In Syria, the U.S. passed up for too long the opportunity to support the most liberal of rebels fighting against the dictator Bashar al-Assad, allowing extremist radicals to dominate the opposition. Now the choices are far more difficult, and America's standing is in tatters with the people who should have been its natural allies.
The oversimplified equation says the country has to choose between its ideals and its interests. But in the case of the Arab uprisings, America's ideals and interests overlap. If Washington stood more convincingly with those who share its ideals, it would strengthen them within their revolutions. It would help them to victory, and then America would become stronger, having real friends in power in the post-revolutionary Middle East.
It's not too late for a course correction.
Personally I think that democracy dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood was going to go badly for Egypt and no matter what Barack did the results would have been the same. As president, though, every problem in the world is Barack's personal responsibility and for that reason he has to be blamed.
Shame on you Obama. :mad: :mad: :mad:
:mad: He should have engaged. Or shown more leadership. Preferably both.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on July 03, 2013, 03:22:00 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F68536000%2Fjpg%2F_68536549_68536394.jpg&hash=b2cc69a783f771c1790e2892ceba872895f4caaf)
Where's my main man Tantawi? Who's this young whippersnapper?
Now see, that's the kind of guy US policy should be supporting. Look at that over-sized beret. Those masculine collar boards. Those epaulettes you could do a half-gainer off of.
Now that's the kind of strongman we want there.
He fails on one detail, no moustache.
Quote from: Savonarola on July 03, 2013, 04:33:12 PM
Personally I think that democracy dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood was going to go badly for Egypt and no matter what Barack did the results would have been the same. As president, though, every problem in the world is Barack's personal responsibility and for that reason he has to be blamed.
Shame on you Obama. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Yeah, whatever, CNN.
We back US-friendly strongmen, we're the bad guys.
We back the democratically elected government even though they're fundie Islamotards, we're the bad guys.
We "take stand for the workers, and for democracy, by quietly waiving the human rights preconditions of U.S. aid to Egypt" then we're meddling with the legitimate government, and we're the bad guys.
We do nothing, we're the bad guys.
As long as we back the existence of Israel, we can't win in any of those asswiping-with-their-left-hand shitholes over there. Fucking Arabs.
Then it is obvious what we need to do.
We're still a nation full of Jews. The Arabs truly believe that, and since it's an Arab conspiracy theory, it's legitimate.
Holy shit, I think Richard Engel just got finger gang-banged.
Holy shit, someone on Facebook who knows a lot of protester types actually posted something quite reasonable and nuanced about the events in Egypt, rather than just egging on the protesters. :hmm:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 05:19:10 PM
We're still a nation full of Jews. The Arabs truly believe that, and since it's an Arab conspiracy theory, it's legitimate.
I still say give up Siege to his Camel Jockey Cousins.
Quote from: katmai on July 03, 2013, 05:24:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 05:19:10 PM
We're still a nation full of Jews. The Arabs truly believe that, and since it's an Arab conspiracy theory, it's legitimate.
I still say give up Siege to his Camel Jockey Cousins.
Talk to the Chinese. They have first dibs on him.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 05:25:45 PM
Quote from: katmai on July 03, 2013, 05:24:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 03, 2013, 05:19:10 PM
We're still a nation full of Jews. The Arabs truly believe that, and since it's an Arab conspiracy theory, it's legitimate.
I still say give up Siege to his Camel Jockey Cousins.
Talk to the Chinese. They have first dibs on him.
Siege, when dealing with Chinese, you have to impress them. You have to make them think you're a tiger.
We could divert the Nile. This would solve many problems.
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
We could divert the Nile. This would solve many problems.
Blow up the dam?
That would be genocide on an unprecedented scale. :mad:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
We could divert the Nile. This would solve many problems.
Blow up the dam?
That would be genocide on an unprecedented scale. :mad:
Only in the loosest sense of the word.
This is what happens when you pick weirdo indie rockers in your election.
Quote from: Viking on July 03, 2013, 02:17:50 AMI think in shelf's view of the world, and I think he'll agree with me that this is his world view, most if not all conflicts can be resolved by reasonable people from each side negotiating in good faith. So he postulates that "the other" is reasonable to sustain that world view.
Not really. I find it extremely frustrating that people seem to struggle to disagree without their opponent not just being wrong but being an awful person. I also hate the trend that you get, especially with American liberals and libertarians (Krugman and Greenwald spring to mind), of people so convinced that their views are so clearly rational that they're self-evidently right; to disagree you'd need to be a fool or a knave. I think between people there's lots of good-faith disagreements and normally there isn't a clear answer, there's a series of choices that'll be shaped by the views that cause those disagreements. That doesn't mean you should argue or believe any less passionately, because in my view the arguments good in itself. And conflict between states are driven by interests which can, entirely rationally, conflict.
I wasn't aware of the semantic difference between a conspiracy (postulate? hypothesis?) and a conspiracy theory. So apologies on that.
QuoteWho cares what most people think? There is such a thing as objective facts. And conspiracy theories are almost without exception untrue.
My point was that there are reasons conspiracies are so popular in countries like Egypt. Given the lack of a free press, the tradition of a free press and government openness I imagine very often the conspiracies are more accurate than today's report from the Presidential Palace. So conspiracy theories - which can also be true - are not just understandable but reasonable.
I think that point depends on what most people think, because that's what it's about. It may be true that these conspiracy theories wouldn't have such beliefs if only the dockers of Suez read the New York Times every day, but that's irrelevant. Objective facts aren't much use in the world unless they're allowed to circulate and perceived to be true.
Quoteif I was to believe Sheilbh, I should need to consider the local conteo that the EU is after Orban so that they could colonise us, valid. oh and colonise us for the Jews if you really go down to ground level "salt of the earth" theories
Well no. If you read my version that's the official story. The conspiracy in your case is that Fidesz may not be un-selfinterested saviours of the Magyar people :P
I'd also note that most of the people in this thread, I think, buy into the second wing of secular conspiracy in Egypt which is that the Muslim Brotherhood were trying to create an authoritarian theocracy. Against this we have their repeated statements, but they could be lying. But we also have their record over the last 18 months of non-coalition government. All of which indicates that either that wasn't their goal, or they were so spineless that they could never have achieved it anyway.
As to the coup I'm torn. I think Morsi has a point that he owed it to his successors not to resign. There are serious divisions in Egypt and big problems, not least the economy, which will be difficult to solve. It's going to be very difficult for any leader to deal with those issues and maintain their popularity. This is now the third government in as many years that the Egyptian street has been instrumental in toppling. It seems a dangerous precedent that this will also work for democratically elected leaders, even ones who were flailing as bad as Morsi. It's a precedent for the Army who could intervene again following the 1997 Turkish coup as a model but also for opposition parties. If you are able to gather a large enough group of people onto the streets then you can force the removal of the President? It'll be interesting, if the MB endures as a political force, to see how long it is before they try their hand at that.
The other worry, aside from the obvious Algeria '91 concerns, is that the MB are now being repressed. Their leaders are under arrest and whatever else you say about them they are the largest party in Egypt, they have won two elections and if they're not allowed to participate then you'd have to worry that many members will find the more extreme groups a more tempting choice.
Finally I'm not convinced that the military are up to it. The SCAF was a disaster in every sense, until they were forced out by the Egyptian street.
On the other hand the early signs are that the military have learned some lessons. From what I understand they're talking about taking a back seat in the next phase until new elections. They're also engaging with the opposition forces which is good. Reportedly they've appointed El Baradei (liberals) Prime Minister, a Supreme Court judge (Mubarak-continuity) President and have even brought the Salafist parties into the government. That broad attempt at a national coalition was missing in the last transition and in the MB government. So maybe this is a rare chance for Egypt to try again and get the transition right this time.
The other positive is the Egyptian street, which I always thought was unlikely to return meekly to an authoritarian regime. They know their power and Morsi won around 52% of the vote against a Mubarak-era PM. He never had a huge mandate and it's clear from this (but also from polling beforehand) that he lost it.
If they get to re-do transition and to do it right then it'll be positive. The MB surprised everyone with how poor they were in government. It would've been three awful years for Egyptians but I suspect that had Morsi served out his term and the MB's incompetence, over-reaching and failure been allowed to continue that may have been better in the long-term.
Edit: Incidentally this is yet another time when I think Presidential systems are disastrous and the Egyptians could do far worse than contact whoever's Farouk's heir.
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
We could divert the Nile. This would solve many problems.
Blow up the dam?
That would be genocide on an unprecedented scale. :mad:
Only in the loosest sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean by this?
Destroying the Aswan dam would kill like 90% of Egyptians wouldn't it?
Acceptable losses
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 07:39:06 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
We could divert the Nile. This would solve many problems.
Blow up the dam?
That would be genocide on an unprecedented scale. :mad:
Only in the loosest sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean by this?
Destroying the Aswan dam would kill like 90% of Egyptians wouldn't it?
No.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 07:39:06 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
We could divert the Nile. This would solve many problems.
Blow up the dam?
That would be genocide on an unprecedented scale. :mad:
Only in the loosest sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean by this?
Destroying the Aswan dam would kill like 90% of Egyptians wouldn't it?
No, that's absurd.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 03, 2013, 09:07:40 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 07:39:06 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
We could divert the Nile. This would solve many problems.
Blow up the dam?
That would be genocide on an unprecedented scale. :mad:
Only in the loosest sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean by this?
Destroying the Aswan dam would kill like 90% of Egyptians wouldn't it?
No, that's absurd.
90% of the population lives in the flood plain of the Nile, what do you think's going to happen to them if Lak Nasser is released by the destruction of the Dam?
They get on a ferry.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 09:45:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 03, 2013, 09:07:40 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 07:39:06 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
We could divert the Nile. This would solve many problems.
Blow up the dam?
That would be genocide on an unprecedented scale. :mad:
Only in the loosest sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean by this?
Destroying the Aswan dam would kill like 90% of Egyptians wouldn't it?
No, that's absurd.
90% of the population lives in the flood plain of the Nile, what do you think's going to happen to them if Lak Nasser is released by the destruction of the Dam?
Move out of the way.
But 75 million deaths?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.snarkysweetgossip.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F02%2Fgrumpyno.jpg&hash=c9adc0db8839d09ef26acce8105d84ef50c87d17)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 09:45:48 PM
90% of the population lives in the flood plain of the Nile, what do you think's going to happen to them if Lak Nasser is released by the destruction of the Dam?
That doesn't mean it's going to wash every last one of them out to sea. Simply living in the flood plain doesn't mean your house goes under water when the river is high even if a dam breaks. And a lot of major cities predate the lake, so it's unlikely they will be washed away.
Quote from: Maximus on July 03, 2013, 10:06:54 PM
They get on a ferry.
:XD:
You're heartless. No wonder Tuna left Languish.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 03, 2013, 10:52:59 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 09:45:48 PM
90% of the population lives in the flood plain of the Nile, what do you think's going to happen to them if Lak Nasser is released by the destruction of the Dam?
That doesn't mean it's going to wash every last one of them out to sea. Simply living in the flood plain doesn't mean your house goes under water when the river is high even if a dam breaks. And a lot of major cities predate the lake, so it's unlikely they will be washed away.
This is not a natural flood, it just can't be compared. This is 132 cubic kilometers of water being released.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 03, 2013, 06:14:35 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 03, 2013, 02:17:50 AMI think in shelf's view of the world, and I think he'll agree with me that this is his world view, most if not all conflicts can be resolved by reasonable people from each side negotiating in good faith. So he postulates that "the other" is reasonable to sustain that world view.
Not really. I find it extremely frustrating that people seem to struggle to disagree without their opponent not just being wrong but being an awful person. I also hate the trend that you get, especially with American liberals and libertarians (Krugman and Greenwald spring to mind), of people so convinced that their views are so clearly rational that they're self-evidently right; to disagree you'd need to be a fool or a knave. I think between people there's lots of good-faith disagreements and normally there isn't a clear answer, there's a series of choices that'll be shaped by the views that cause those disagreements. That doesn't mean you should argue or believe any less passionately, because in my view the arguments good in itself. And conflict between states are driven by interests which can, entirely rationally, conflict.
I wasn't aware of the semantic difference between a conspiracy (postulate? hypothesis?) and a conspiracy theory. So apologies on that.
Way to go there not dealing with what I said, just bitching about how I supposedly think you are a bad person for disagreeing with me.
A Conspiracy is a group of people conspiring together to do something. A Conspiracy theory is an explanation of facts that asserts (usually without evidence) that a conspiracy is the best explanation. Yes there is a big difference between using the word conspiracy as a noun and using it as an adjective. Perhaps you should not assert the non-relevance of the distinction while you remain ignorant of this distinction.
Now boys.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 11:56:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 03, 2013, 10:52:59 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 09:45:48 PM
90% of the population lives in the flood plain of the Nile, what do you think's going to happen to them if Lak Nasser is released by the destruction of the Dam?
That doesn't mean it's going to wash every last one of them out to sea. Simply living in the flood plain doesn't mean your house goes under water when the river is high even if a dam breaks. And a lot of major cities predate the lake, so it's unlikely they will be washed away.
This is not a natural flood, it just can't be compared. This is 132 cubic kilometers of water being released.
Even an unnatural flood isn't going to wipe out 90% of the populace unless it's caused by a comet or something. And 152 cubic Kilometers of water won't be all released at once and the dam is pretty far down south. Also, you are an idiot. I wasn't going to say that, but you keep on with this. You are a goddamn idiot.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 04, 2013, 12:24:00 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 11:56:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 03, 2013, 10:52:59 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 09:45:48 PM
90% of the population lives in the flood plain of the Nile, what do you think's going to happen to them if Lak Nasser is released by the destruction of the Dam?
That doesn't mean it's going to wash every last one of them out to sea. Simply living in the flood plain doesn't mean your house goes under water when the river is high even if a dam breaks. And a lot of major cities predate the lake, so it's unlikely they will be washed away.
This is not a natural flood, it just can't be compared. This is 132 cubic kilometers of water being released.
Even an unnatural flood isn't going to wipe out 90% of the populace unless it's caused by a comet or something. And 152 cubic Kilometers of water won't be all released at once and the dam is pretty far down south. Also, you are an idiot. I wasn't going to say that, but you keep on with this. You are a goddamn idiot.
:lol:
Tim, the benefit would be finally they would take a bath.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 07:39:06 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
We could divert the Nile. This would solve many problems.
Blow up the dam?
That would be genocide on an unprecedented scale. :mad:
Only in the loosest sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean by this?
Destroying the Aswan dam would kill like 90% of Egyptians wouldn't it?
It's not really genocide when you're talking about subhuman rapists, is it?
Woah when did swedes get dragged into the conversation ?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 11:56:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 03, 2013, 10:52:59 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 03, 2013, 09:45:48 PM
90% of the population lives in the flood plain of the Nile, what do you think's going to happen to them if Lak Nasser is released by the destruction of the Dam?
That doesn't mean it's going to wash every last one of them out to sea. Simply living in the flood plain doesn't mean your house goes under water when the river is high even if a dam breaks. And a lot of major cities predate the lake, so it's unlikely they will be washed away.
This is not a natural flood, it just can't be compared. This is 132 cubic kilometers of water being released.
Aswan's "long and thin" - even if the Dam is breached the Lake itself will take a long while to drain.
Do you know how long it takes the Nile to transport water from the vicinity of Aswan to the Delta, even when in Flood?
Admittedly that's probably still not enough time to evacuate everywhere...but a lot of Egypt's population live in and around the Delta - how deep will the Flood be there given it'll be able to spread out and not all arrive at once anyway?
Quote from: Agelastus on July 04, 2013, 07:37:26 AM
Aswan's "long and thin" - even if the Dam is breached the Lake itself will take a long while to drain.
Do you know how long it takes the Nile to transport water from the vicinity of Aswan to the Delta, even when in Flood?
Admittedly that's probably still not enough time to evacuate everywhere...but a lot of Egypt's population live in and around the Delta - how deep will the Flood be there given it'll be able to spread out and not all arrive at once anyway?
Floodplain and Delta is a total of 12,750 sq miles, or 33,022 sq km
http://www.touregypt.net/egypt-info/magazine-mag05012001-magf4a.htm
If I did the math right, the water from the lake could fill that whole area to a depth of 4 meters. However, since it's draining into the plain in a flash flood the wave is going to be higher where it hits.
Except that the whole volume isn't released all at once.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 04, 2013, 08:14:57 AM
If I did the math right, the water from the lake could fill that whole area to a depth of 4 meters. However, since it's draining into the plain in a flash flood the wave is going to be higher where it hits.
If your math is as shitty as your grammar you did it wrong anyways.
Quote from: Tamas on July 03, 2013, 02:13:23 PM
Egypt must really be fucked. I understand why they were afraid of Mr. Muslim Brother Mursi becoming ever more arrogant, but... what was it, 6 months ago that such crowds rallied against the military "restoring order"? Now they celebrate military takeover.
A couple I work with lives in Egypt--I posted their concerned thoughts at the initial overthrow of Mubarak as they had the concern that Mubarak was bad but that what was coming wouldn't be better (and might be worse). The reason being that Egypt doesn't have a well educated population or one with experience in controlling a government.
From what they have told me, many government functions, most notably the police, have almost stopped functioning since Mubarak left. This is as a result of government officials just disappearing. At first this was tolerated as a cost of the revolution and tolerable for the short term, but the expectation among the people was that things would be improved after elections.
Quote from: katmai on July 04, 2013, 05:58:20 AM
Woah when did swedes get dragged into the conversation ?
We are all egyptians today.
Quote from: Neil on July 04, 2013, 08:45:51 AM
Except that the whole volume isn't released all at once.
With a nuke? Hell yeah.
Ok, lets do the math how much conventional explosives we need to bring the dam down, and hope we don't end up in jail in Texas with a 500,000 dollar bail.
I had lunch with an Egyptian friend of mine in May during which time he said very matter of factly that the government would be finished before the end of June. He wasnt wrong by much.
His explanation was that the economic situation in Egypt was getting very bad for people who might have been sympathetic to rule by the Muslim Brothers - the poor. The infrastructure for the government providing aid or economic relief had broken down completely.
He said that it was plain to everyone that a change was coming. The open question was and is, what that change would be.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 04, 2013, 01:46:39 PM
I had lunch with an Egyptian friend of mine in May during which time he said very matter of factly that the government would be finished before the end of June. He wasnt wrong by much.
His explanation was that the economic situation in Egypt was getting very bad for people who might have been sympathetic to rule by the Muslim Brothers - the poor. The infrastructure for the government providing aid or economic relief had broken down completely.
He said that it was plain to everyone that a change was coming. The open question was and is, what that change would be.
The problem here is that Egypt's social, economic and environmental problems are so horrific that I doubt any government, however uncorrupt, popular, legitimate and unified, would be able to solve them - and any government Egypt is likely to obtain is probably going to be none of these things. :(
Quote from: Malthus on July 04, 2013, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 04, 2013, 01:46:39 PM
I had lunch with an Egyptian friend of mine in May during which time he said very matter of factly that the government would be finished before the end of June. He wasnt wrong by much.
His explanation was that the economic situation in Egypt was getting very bad for people who might have been sympathetic to rule by the Muslim Brothers - the poor. The infrastructure for the government providing aid or economic relief had broken down completely.
He said that it was plain to everyone that a change was coming. The open question was and is, what that change would be.
The problem here is that Egypt's social, economic and environmental problems are so horrific that I doubt any government, however uncorrupt, popular, legitimate and unified, would be able to solve them - and any government Egypt is likely to obtain is probably going to be none of these things. :(
Which was pretty much what I was angling for when Yi said "NO you are wrong, now GO to your room".
I mean what was different for Mubarak this time when certain parts of the populace have loathed him for a long time? The economic and social framework of Egypt is collapsing and it accelerated with the economic downturn in the west making the problems impossible to hide. If anything all these revolutions have managed to make the problems worse as the parts of the society that actually functioned reasonably well is also breaking down. Egypt simply cannot support 85 million people with the limited resources at their disposal.
Quote from: Cecil on July 04, 2013, 03:04:30 PM
Which was pretty much what I was angling for when Yi said "NO you are wrong, now GO to your room".
This is a problem. I disagree with someone in what I think is a calm, reasoned manner, and more often than not I get a response like this.
Please tell me what I could have done differently, in content or tone, to avoid this response.
Quote from: Siege on July 04, 2013, 01:33:40 PM
Quote from: Neil on July 04, 2013, 08:45:51 AM
Except that the whole volume isn't released all at once.
With a nuke? Hell yeah.
No, it isn't. The water has to fit into the space provided.
Quote from: Cecil on July 04, 2013, 03:04:30 PM
Which was pretty much what I was angling for when Yi said "NO you are wrong, now GO to your room".
I mean what was different for Mubarak this time when certain parts of the populace have loathed him for a long time? The economic and social framework of Egypt is collapsing and it accelerated with the economic downturn in the west making the problems impossible to hide. If anything all these revolutions have managed to make the problems worse as the parts of the society that actually functioned reasonably well is also breaking down. Egypt simply cannot support 85 million people with the limited resources at their disposal.
Egypt hasn't been able to feed itself or pay it's bills for over a generation now. So, yes, the decline started in the Mubarak era. The thing is that this deficit has been funded by tourism, american aid, oil and gas exports and a trilateral trade agreement with the US and Israel as part of the Peace Agreement.
The Brotherhood pissed of Obama so he isn't bailing them out with the IMF, World Bank or Direct Debit, the Gas Exports mostly lapsed when Morsi declined to protect and/or fix the pipeline going to Israel (meanwhile in j00stan they discover natural gas of their own) and Tourism has dropped steeply and stayed down with the islamists in charge.
Mursi has been shooting Egypt in the foot economically while trying to secure power. Egypt was already sitting on the knifes edge and he insisted on rocking the boat.
Egypt is literally broke, it has no more currency reserves. This is presumably why the Army choose to act against him. Soon they will run out of bread and tea.
Quote from: Malthus on July 04, 2013, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 04, 2013, 01:46:39 PM
I had lunch with an Egyptian friend of mine in May during which time he said very matter of factly that the government would be finished before the end of June. He wasnt wrong by much.
His explanation was that the economic situation in Egypt was getting very bad for people who might have been sympathetic to rule by the Muslim Brothers - the poor. The infrastructure for the government providing aid or economic relief had broken down completely.
He said that it was plain to everyone that a change was coming. The open question was and is, what that change would be.
The problem here is that Egypt's social, economic and environmental problems are so horrific that I doubt any government, however uncorrupt, popular, legitimate and unified, would be able to solve them - and any government Egypt is likely to obtain is probably going to be none of these things. :(
The problem isnt that he didnt solve the problem. Everyone seems to acknowledge that would impossible. The real problem seems to be that he was not taking steps to address the problems at all, but rather was setting up government by and for the Brotherhood.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 04, 2013, 03:40:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 04, 2013, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 04, 2013, 01:46:39 PM
I had lunch with an Egyptian friend of mine in May during which time he said very matter of factly that the government would be finished before the end of June. He wasnt wrong by much.
His explanation was that the economic situation in Egypt was getting very bad for people who might have been sympathetic to rule by the Muslim Brothers - the poor. The infrastructure for the government providing aid or economic relief had broken down completely.
He said that it was plain to everyone that a change was coming. The open question was and is, what that change would be.
The problem here is that Egypt's social, economic and environmental problems are so horrific that I doubt any government, however uncorrupt, popular, legitimate and unified, would be able to solve them - and any government Egypt is likely to obtain is probably going to be none of these things. :(
The problem isnt that he didnt solve the problem. Everyone seems to acknowledge that would impossible. The real problem seems to be that he was not taking steps to address the problems at all, but rather was setting up government by and for the Brotherhood.
I agree. My point is more a lament for the poor sap who gets the booby prize of being the next leader of Egypt. ;)
One of the things that might be instructive is how difficult it is to create a democracy and how much hinges on who the first leader is. Overnight they are given a great deal of power and responsibility without established democratic institutions to help them with their tasks.
A great deal is determined by how the new leader deals with this. Its a bit of a crap shoot. A new democracy might get someone like a Mandela or a Washington who set the bar high for future leaders. Or not.
Assuming the next leader is a democratic one, I don't know that a Washington or a Mandela would be able to succeed. The problem with the coup is that a presumably large portion of population won't view the new administration as legitimate. Coupled with huge problems in Egypt, I don't think this is an opportunity for success.
Quote from: Viking on July 04, 2013, 03:31:01 PM
The Brotherhood pissed of Obama so he isn't bailing them out with the IMF, World Bank or Direct Debit, the Gas Exports mostly lapsed when Morsi declined to protect and/or fix the pipeline going to Israel (meanwhile in j00stan they discover natural gas of their own) and Tourism has dropped steeply and stayed down with the islamists in charge.
Mursi has been shooting Egypt in the foot economically while trying to secure power. Egypt was already sitting on the knifes edge and he insisted on rocking the boat.
Egypt is literally broke, it has no more currency reserves. This is presumably why the Army choose to act against him. Soon they will run out of bread and tea.
I'll come back to other points later but the IMF and Morsi had agreed an $5 billion loan (with other donors promising a further $10 billion). It wasn't implemented yet, because it called for tax rises and phasing out of fuel subsidies. The normal reasons IMF loans are difficult not because of Obama or the Brotherhood's rocking the boat. The IMF have suspended it because of the coup, so they'll want to renegotiate with the next government.
Some of the problems Egypt faces are far more structural and make them ripe for revolutions. Not least that they're the world's biggest wheat importer at a time when the cost is very high and that goes for many other basic commodities too (not least fertiliser and fuel). They're also an extremely young country with quite severe economic problems. Similarly Mubarak was running 8% deficits when they had far more tourism and no recession, that's going to be difficult for anyone to turn around. I think the fact that the Brotherhood were in power in Egypt probably had less on an impact on tourism than the images of riots, revolutions and disorder that have been on the news pretty regularly since 2010. Even if Mubarak had carried on, with a similar level of disorder I think you'd have seen a similar decline in tourism.
You can blame Morsi and the Brotherhood for lots of things, I don't think the economic situation is one of them. The problems were endemic under Mubarak too, though they're more pronounced now due to the collapse in tourism. You've got a very high deficit and a falling currency which is being propped up by the central bank using its foreign reserves and, occasionally, getting help from the Qataris (which, incidentally, will be withdrawn now the MB have been removed from office). The pound's being devalued and there's huge inflation in many staples, both because of the situation in Egypt and globally (remember the fires in Russia last year that had a huge impact on wheat production, for example). To get the deficit and the situation under control the government needs to raise more revenue and to cut the subsidies which, I believe, are now a quarter of the budget. But those subsidies are also the only real form of aid for the poor in Egypt which, given the economic situation of almost Spanish levels of unemployment, are a substantial and growing proportion of the population.
As I say that's tough for any party or leader to deal with and I think especially so given the power and the influence of the Egyptian street. Failing to govern well has hugely discredited the MB, I wouldn't be surprised if it did the same to the army, and any other political party that fancied a chance. There's a real risk that Egypt ends up resembling Pakistan at the 'end' of all this.
Edit: And it's worth remembering the last leader to tinker with subsidies was Sadat and it almost caused a revolution. He reinstated them, but the economic burden was at least part of the reason he sought rapprochement with the US and Israel.
Traditionally what the US does for it's tin-pot dictator allies who need IMF money is they arrange it so that no washington consensus style pre-conditions of balanced budgets and economic reforms are required. Not so in this case. These are normal IMF conditions. Naturally Egypt can't meet them.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2013, 04:10:15 PM
Assuming the next leader is a democratic one, I don't know that a Washington or a Mandela would be able to succeed. The problem with the coup is that a presumably large portion of population won't view the new administration as legitimate. Coupled with huge problems in Egypt, I don't think this is an opportunity for success.
Depends what you think "success" might be. Egypt could very much use a Mandela who will not use power to further narrow political interests but rather will try to govern in an inclusive manner. That seems to be one of the major problems with the Brotherhood.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 04, 2013, 08:14:57 AM
Quote from: Agelastus on July 04, 2013, 07:37:26 AM
Aswan's "long and thin" - even if the Dam is breached the Lake itself will take a long while to drain.
Do you know how long it takes the Nile to transport water from the vicinity of Aswan to the Delta, even when in Flood?
Admittedly that's probably still not enough time to evacuate everywhere...but a lot of Egypt's population live in and around the Delta - how deep will the Flood be there given it'll be able to spread out and not all arrive at once anyway?
Floodplain and Delta is a total of 12,750 sq miles, or 33,022 sq km
http://www.touregypt.net/egypt-info/magazine-mag05012001-magf4a.htm
If I did the math right, the water from the lake could fill that whole area to a depth of 4 meters. However, since it's draining into the plain in a flash flood the wave is going to be higher where it hits.
Lake Nasser is 340 miles long. All that water is not going to hit "all at once". A good chunk of it'll have reached the sea before the last of it hits the Delta. And once it hits the Delta and the multiple channels of the Nile the main floodsurge'll lose height very rapidly anyway.
Also you ignored the first part of what I said - normally the yearly flooding of the Nile reaches Cairo a week after it does Aswan. How much faster is the water of this "superflood" going to be travelling, then?
Quote from: Agelastus on July 04, 2013, 05:11:34 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 04, 2013, 08:14:57 AM
Quote from: Agelastus on July 04, 2013, 07:37:26 AM
Aswan's "long and thin" - even if the Dam is breached the Lake itself will take a long while to drain.
Do you know how long it takes the Nile to transport water from the vicinity of Aswan to the Delta, even when in Flood?
Admittedly that's probably still not enough time to evacuate everywhere...but a lot of Egypt's population live in and around the Delta - how deep will the Flood be there given it'll be able to spread out and not all arrive at once anyway?
Floodplain and Delta is a total of 12,750 sq miles, or 33,022 sq km
http://www.touregypt.net/egypt-info/magazine-mag05012001-magf4a.htm
If I did the math right, the water from the lake could fill that whole area to a depth of 4 meters. However, since it's draining into the plain in a flash flood the wave is going to be higher where it hits.
Lake Nasser is 340 miles long. All that water is not going to hit "all at once". A good chunk of it'll have reached the sea before the last of it hits the Delta. And once it hits the Delta and the multiple channels of the Nile the main floodsurge'll lose height very rapidly anyway.
Also you ignored the first part of what I said - normally the yearly flooding of the Nile reaches Cairo a week after it does Aswan. How much faster is the water of this "superflood" going to be travelling, then?
Also, it is going to flood the banks of the nile in the south long before it reaches the north of the country.
And very significant quantities are going to evaporate sink into the soil etc. I could see several thousand deaths and maybe a 100,000 displace for a bit.
This guy makes some good arguments that the military has a lot to lose from this, but it doesn't seem that they percieve it that way to me. They moved much faster against Morsi than they did against Mubarak.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/07/egypt_s_military_ousts_mohammed_morsi_the_country_s_generals_now_face_economic.html
Quote
For the enormous crowds who gathered in Tahrir Square over the past few days, the military's announcement abrogating the new constitution and deposing Egypt's first democratically elected president, Muhammad Morsi, is a second revolution, a replay of the ouster of dictator Hosni Mubarak three years ago. For the pro-Morsi crowds gathered in a much smaller square in a North Cairo suburb, the move, followed by the installation of an interim government, is a coup. This seems to be the view of most Western commentators as well, for whom the military's actions fit into a tidy narrative of Egypt as a military–garrison state, long ruled by generals who viewed the rise of an elected president as a threat to their power and privileges.
But this gets the situation almost exactly backward. President Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood allies never represented a threat to the military's interests. On the contrary, over the past two years, they proved remarkably willing to accommodate Egypt's men in uniform. For example, the widely reviled constitution that Morsi's allies passed in December didn't just dial back progress on women's rights and sneak in more fulsome declarations of adherence to Islamic law; it also enshrined the military's place atop the country's political hierarchy. Article 146 gives the military veto power over presidential decisions to declare war. Article 195 mandates that the minister of defense be a general. Article 197—a highly valued sop to the generals' interests—instructs that only a military-dominated body (called the National Defense Council) can oversee the military's budget. The constitution even has a provision preserving the military's right to prosecute civilians. Egypt's generals didn't want to abrogate this constitution; they are its biggest fans. It is thus hard to see what the military gains by overthrowing the president—except for direct responsibility over a country whose teetering economy and unruly crowds gave them headaches during the 18 months they were in charge between Mubarak's ouster and Morsi's election.
Egypt's generals no more wanted Morsi's ouster than they wanted Mubarak's almost three years ago. What they want is to continue to enjoy their perquisites—including more than $1 billion a year of military aid and some of the choicest cuts of the Egyptian economy. Their ouster of Morsi puts both of these things at risk. President Obama has already hinted that the generals' abrogation of democracy might occasion a withdrawal of U.S. military assistance—though he's unlikely to follow through. And the young people who helped propel the Egyptian people into the streets, and compelled the military to step in and restore order, are the same people who in November 2011, during the military's brief period of direct rule, were taking to the streets shouting "Down, down with military rule!" No matter how much Egyptians laud them today, the generals know that it is only a matter of time before the revolutionaries turn on them again.
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And then there are the military's new enemies—the Muslim Brotherhood—for whom the latest maneuver is one of the most dramatic and consequential events in more than 1,400 years of Islamic history. The generals fear that the Muslim Brotherhood will not go down without some kind of fight, which is why they moved on Wednesday to pre-emptively arrest key Brotherhood leaders and shut down the movement's television station. It remains to be seen whether these tactics will neutralize the Brothers or inflame their rank and file (who are already speaking of martyring themselves for democratic legitimacy). In short, it is hard to see how the current situation gives Minister of Defense Abdel Fattah al-Sissi and his fellow officers anything other than heartburn.
If the military hasn't won today, who has? It's almost impossible to say. Though Egyptians are still celebrating, they are probably no closer to democracy today than they were three years ago. And though Egypt won't likely miss the combustible, unimaginative, and inflexible Morsi, the fact that he was removed in defiance of the ballot box is not without its own costs. But if it's hard to identify the winners here, it's relatively easy to identify the losers: the so-called youth of Tahrir. Though Egyptian politicians talk about the square as if it's a renewable resource—the people's tool for rebooting their government whenever the public tires of its leaders—the reality is that every new protest wears popular patience thinner. The vast majority of Egypt's 81 million people have never protested in Tahrir and don't care about the Brotherhood; they simply want a return to safety, order, and regular electricity. In six months, when the young people take to the streets again to protest some inevitable violation by the generals, and the military sends out the tanks and truncheons, Egyptians will probably shrug, and maybe even cheer.
... maybe the military is genuinely trying to pull a Kemalist "guardian of the people" type role?
Quote from: Jacob on July 04, 2013, 05:46:42 PM
... maybe the military is genuinely trying to pull a Kemalist "guardian of the people" type role?
I think that's the goal. And I think they've learned a lot of lessons from the SCAF debacle - the wide support for their 'roadmap' from the neo-Nasserists to liberals to Salafis is particularly promising.
But it's going to be tough to pull off. One other good bit of news is that the Egyptian people seem to have learned from SCAF as well. There was a massive protest today to 'hold the army to their promises'. The street, unlike during the early SCAF period, shows no signs of quieting down and trusting the military.
QuoteBut if it's hard to identify the winners here, it's relatively easy to identify the losers: the so-called youth of Tahrir. Though Egyptian politicians talk about the square as if it's a renewable resource—the people's tool for rebooting their government whenever the public tires of its leaders—the reality is that every new protest wears popular patience thinner. The vast majority of Egypt's 81 million people have never protested in Tahrir and don't care about the Brotherhood; they simply want a return to safety, order, and regular electricity. In six months, when the young people take to the streets again to protest some inevitable violation by the generals, and the military sends out the tanks and truncheons, Egyptians will probably shrug, and maybe even cheer.
Lolz, useless kids.
Quote from: Agelastus on July 04, 2013, 05:11:34 PM
Also you ignored the first part of what I said - normally the yearly flooding of the Nile reaches Cairo a week after it does Aswan. How much faster is the water of this "superflood" going to be travelling, then?
I don't know how to calculate that. :(
Quote from: Viking on July 04, 2013, 04:21:48 PM
Traditionally what the US does for it's tin-pot dictator allies who need IMF money is they arrange it so that no washington consensus style pre-conditions of balanced budgets and economic reforms are required. Not so in this case. These are normal IMF conditions. Naturally Egypt can't meet them.
Your post suggests you think America cutting a sweetheart IMF deal for its geopolitical allies is a standard practice. It's not. To the best of my knowledge it has only happened twice: once with Russia post-breakup and once with Turkey not long after. Also keep in mind the US has enough board votes at the IMF to block any deal, but not enough votes to push through a program others are opposed to. There have been cases where the US was on the short side of a program vote. And it's also difficult to argue that in both those cases of soft geopolitically driven programs the US was the primary beneficiary of the stability those loans bought.
Republicans :rolleyes:
QuoteEgypt unrest: Morsi marchers die as army fires
Egyptian troops have opened fire on supporters of ousted President Mohammed Morsi marching in Cairo, killing three people and wounding dozens more.
The shooting came as crowds moved on the Republican Guard headquarters, where Mr Morsi is believed to be held.
Later the Muslim Brotherhood's leader told supporters that protests would continue until Mr Morsi was reinstated.
The army, which removed Mr Morsi on Wednesday after days of unrest, denied shooting live rounds at demonstrators.
However the BBC's Jeremy Bowen at the scene says he saw soldiers fire on the protesters on Friday.
About 2,000 people had marched on the officers' club of the Republican Guard after passionate Friday Prayers at the nearby Rabaa al-Adawiya Mosque.
Pro-Morsi protester, Cairo, 5 July Supporters of Mr Morsi gathered after Friday Prayers to demand his reinstatement
As the crowd grew, got angrier and pushed forward, the troops opened fire - first into the air, then at the crowd, our correspondent reports.
One man fell to the ground with blood on his clothes, says our correspondent - who was himself lightly wounded in the head by shotgun pellets.
Three people were killed and 69 injured in the shooting, the head of Cairo's emergency services said.
By evening, tens of thousands of Muslim Brotherhood supporters had massed outside Rabaa al-Adawiya Mosque and filled nearby streets.
The Brotherhood's supreme leader, Mohammed Badie, told the crowd: "We shall stay in the squares until we bring President Morsi back to power."
Mr Badie also denied reports that he had been arrested on Thursday.
Supporters of Mr Morsi have been rallying across Egypt to demand his reinstatement.
In Qina in the south, security forces opened fire on protesters trying to storm a security building. At least two people were injured.
Shots have also been fired in Alexandria in the north, Egypt's second-largest city.
Meanwhile the Tamarod [Rebel] movement - which organised recent protests calling for Mr Morsi to stand down - on Friday urged supporters to take to the streets again to "protect the revolution".
Tamarod and other anti-Morsi forces accuse Mr Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood - to which he belongs - of pursuing an Islamist agenda against the wishes of the majority, and of failing to tackle economic problems.
Pro-Morsi protester, Cairo, 5 July The Muslim Brotherhood has vowed to stay on the street
Ahead of Friday's rallies by Morsi supporters, the army command said it would not take "arbitrary measures against any faction or political current" and would guarantee the right to protest, as long as demonstrations did not threaten national security.
"Peaceful protest and freedom of expression are rights guaranteed to everyone, which Egyptians have earned as one of the most important gains of their glorious revolution," it said.
New spy chief
Muslim Brotherhood spokesman Gehad al-Haddad said the movement was refusing to co-operate with the new leadership and demanded the immediate release of those detained.
UK Foreign Secretary William Hague tweeted that he was "very concerned by reports of deaths in Cairo".
Mr Morsi, Egypt's first freely elected leader, is in detention, as are senior figures in the Brotherhood. Arrest warrants have been issued for some 300 others.
On Thursday the head of Egypt's constitutional court, Adly Mahmud Mansour, was sworn in as interim head of state and promised elections soon.
On Friday Mr Mansour dissolved the upper house - or Shura Council - which had been dominated by Morsi supporters and had served as sole legislative body after the lower house was dissolved last year.
Mr Mansour also named a new intelligence chief, Mohamed Ahmed Farid.
Mr Morsi's removal followed several days of unrest in which dozens of people died.
;)
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 04, 2013, 04:40:04 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2013, 04:10:15 PM
Assuming the next leader is a democratic one, I don't know that a Washington or a Mandela would be able to succeed. The problem with the coup is that a presumably large portion of population won't view the new administration as legitimate. Coupled with huge problems in Egypt, I don't think this is an opportunity for success.
Depends what you think "success" might be. Egypt could very much use a Mandela who will not use power to further narrow political interests but rather will try to govern in an inclusive manner. That seems to be one of the major problems with the Brotherhood.
Would that even be such a great thing? It isn't like South Africa is a lovely place post-Mandela.
Probably a good time to get a bargain on a Nile cruise:
Quote
Egypt tense after night-long clashes
Supporters of ousted president call for more demonstrations following violent clashes that left 30 dead across country.
Last Modified: 06 Jul 2013 13:09
A tense calm has descended on Egypt after a night of fierce clashes between supporters and opponents of the ousted President Mohamed Morsi.
At least 30 people were killed and more than 1,000 wounded in the violence that erupted on Friday and continued through the night.
A coalition of conservative groups led by Muslim Brotherhood has vowed further demonstrations on Saturday, raising fears of renewed violence.The coalition is demanding the restoration of Morsi as president. He was deposed three days ago in a military coup.
Battle lines remain drawn as anti-Morsi protesters spent the night in Cairo's Tahrir Square, with checkpoints manned by civilians. Pro-Morsi supporters have also vowed to come on to the streets to press their demand.
"The masses will continue their civilised protests and peaceful sit-ins in Cairo until the military coup is reversed and the legitimate president is restored," the Brotherhood-led coalition said in an early morning statement on Saturday.
Meanwhile, a deputy leader of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, former presidential candidate Khairat El-Shater, has been arrested.
Security sources said on Saturday that Shater, a wealthy businessman seen as the movement's main political strategist, was taken into custody on suspicion of incitement to violence.
Mohamed Badie, the top leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, gave a defiant speech on Friday to a crowd of Morsi supporters and vowed to protect Morsi's presidency.
"God make Morsi victorious and bring him back to the palace," he said in the speech, which was partially aired on state TV. "We are his soldiers, we defend him with our lives."
A new Islamist group also announced its formation in Egypt, calling the army's ousting of Morsi a declaration of war on its faith and threatening to use violence to impose Islamic law.
Ansar al-Shariah in Egypt said it would gather arms and start training its members, in a statement posted on an online forum for fighters in the country's Sinai region on Friday.
Violence through the night
Friday's clashes were triggered by the death of three Morsi supporters - reportedly killed by gunfire as they tried to march towards the military barracks where Morsi is believed to be held.
Morsi supporters blamed the military for the incident, a claim rejected by the army.
Rival groups also clashed near Tahrir Square. The overnight fighting finally subsided when the army separated the warring groups using armoured vehicles.
"We are not taking sides. Our mission is to secure the lives of protesters," military spokesman Colonel Ahmed Ali told AFP news agency.
Meanwhile, the US condemned the fighting and urged all sides, including the army, to stop the violence.
"We condemn the violence that has taken place today in Egypt. We call on all Egyptian leaders to condemn the use of force and to prevent further violence among their supporters," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in a statement.
"We expect the military to ensure that the rights of all Egyptians are protected, including the right to peaceful assembly, and we call on all who are protesting to do so peacefully."
A spokesman for the UN chief Ban Ki-moon quoted him calling for a peaceful end to the crisis.
"There is no place for retribution or for the exclusion of any major party or community," Ban reportedly said.
Cairo in chaos
After nightfall on Friday, a crowd of Morsi supporters marched from Nasr City, a district of Cairo, towards the Maspero state TV building and clashed with anti-Morsi protesters on the 6th October Bridge, which is located over the Nile River.
One man was seen apparently firing a gun, while gunshots could he heard in the area. People were seen throwing rocks as the two sides advanced and retreated in turn on the bridge near Tahrir Square.
Four protesters were killed outside the Republican Guard headquarters after breaking away from a pro-Morsi demonstration, the official MENA news agency reported.
MENA also said that 12 people were killed in Alexandria.
Rioting was also reported in Al Manial district, an island in the Nile River, between Cairo and Giza, according to state TV.
Five policemen had been killed in the northern Sinai town of El-Arish, after a soldier was also killed in the region.
Egyptian armed forces denied reports that a state of emergency had been declared in the troubled Sinai Peninsula, and that curfews had been imposed.
On the other hand it's not all bad news in the Middle East. It sounds like peace will be returning to Syria very soon:
QuoteAssad forces in onslaught on Homs
Assad forces seize control of buildings in strategic rebel-held area, as warplanes strike towns around Damascus.
Last Modified: 06 Jul 2013 11:01
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fmritems%2FImages%2F2013%2F7%2F6%2F%2F201376104834907580_20.jpg&hash=18964565a1a3c63d5e8295ab73d83270757c75f8)
Homs has paid an enormous human and material price for the uprising [Lens Young Homsi]
Forces loyal to the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad are advancing in rebel-held parts of the central city of Homs, both the opposition and state media have said.
Homs-based activist Tarik Badrakhan said on Saturday that Syrian troops seized control of buildings in the opposition-contolled district of Khaldiyeh, the first time government forces entered Homs neighbourhoods held by rebels for over a year.
Syrian state media said troops were advancing and they had killed rebels in the area.
Badrakhan said troops began to advance on Friday night.
Homs is a strategic city located between the capital Damascus and the Syrian coast, a stronghold for the Assad regime.
Homs, considered the "capital of the revolution", has paid an enormous human and material price for the uprising against Assad's regime that began in March 2011 and has since evolved into fully-fledged civil war.
Activists claim that fighters from Lebanon's Hezbollah Shia armed movement, which has sided with Assad's forces, have been battling rebels in the city.
Hezbollah fighters helped the Syrian army capture Qusayr, a key town near Lebanon's border last month, dealing a blow to opposition fighters who have been ferrying supplies and fighters over the border.
Air strikes
Elsewhere on Saturday, Syrian warplanes launched a series of strikes on the outskirts of Damascus.
"Warplanes carried out several air strikes on the edges of Assali [in the south] and Qaboon (east)," said the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.
The Observatory also reported fresh clashes in Assali as well as in the southwestern neighbourhood of Qadam, adding that the army shelled rebel-held Yarmouk in the south and Jobar in the east.
Air strikes also targeted other rebel areas east of Damascus, among them rebel bastion Zamalka, said the group.
Central Damascus is still squarely in army hands.
The latest reports of violence came just as the opposition Syrian National Coalition voted on to elect a new leader.
The top two candidates, however, failed to gain a simple majority needed to become president of the Coalition.
A runoff ballot was scheduled for later on Saturday after Ahmad Jarba, a tribal figure linked with Saudi Arabia, and Mustafa al-Sabbagh, a businessman who is Qatar's point man, did not gain more than half of the votes in the 115 member Coalition in an early morning ballot in Istanbul.
The Coalition has been without a leader for months after its head quit over disagreement over potential talks with Assad's government.
I love the word "Onslaught." You just don't see that enough in the west; outside of college football season.
I'll wait for the Vogue celebratory issue.
No more Allahu Akbar videos? :(
Quote from: DGuller on July 06, 2013, 10:51:51 AM
No more Allahu Akbar videos? :(
We'll always have Palestine for those. Always. :bowler:
So they've named Mohamd Elbaradei as the next Egyptian PM to be overthrown by the army.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 06, 2013, 01:06:06 PM
So they've named Mohamd Elbaradei as the next Egyptian PM to be overthrown by the army.
They'll keep it up until the people of Egypt realize the most important truth about a democratic government. It isn't there to do stuff for the people. It is the people acting in congress. If the egyptian citizen think that he can just stand by while he grants the latest in a long line of coup victims to be license to try and run the country it will always fail.
Quote from: Viking on July 06, 2013, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 06, 2013, 01:06:06 PM
So they've named Mohamd Elbaradei as the next Egyptian PM to be overthrown by the army.
They'll keep it up until the people of Egypt realize the most important truth about a democratic government. It isn't there to do stuff for the people. It is the people acting in congress. If the egyptian citizen think that he can just stand by while he grants the latest in a long line of coup victims to be license to try and run the country it will always fail.
You are right but good luck with that. "Government isn't there to do stuff for people" is a novel concept to a significant portion of the world.
lol "congress"
Got this headline on NBC.com, no article yet
BREAKING: 42 killed, 322 hurt in clashes near Republican Guard HQ in Cairo
Might have to start and Egypt disintegrating thread soon.
Quote from: Tamas on July 06, 2013, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 06, 2013, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 06, 2013, 01:06:06 PM
So they've named Mohamd Elbaradei as the next Egyptian PM to be overthrown by the army.
They'll keep it up until the people of Egypt realize the most important truth about a democratic government. It isn't there to do stuff for the people. It is the people acting in congress. If the egyptian citizen think that he can just stand by while he grants the latest in a long line of coup victims to be license to try and run the country it will always fail.
You are right but good luck with that. "Government isn't there to do stuff for people" is a novel concept to a significant portion of the world.
What is it there for, Tamas.
Here's an article on that clash with Republican Guard
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/08/19347026-42-dead-322-hurt-in-clashes-near-pro-morsi-sit-in?lite
Quote from: garbon on July 05, 2013, 10:15:20 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 04, 2013, 04:40:04 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2013, 04:10:15 PM
Assuming the next leader is a democratic one, I don't know that a Washington or a Mandela would be able to succeed. The problem with the coup is that a presumably large portion of population won't view the new administration as legitimate. Coupled with huge problems in Egypt, I don't think this is an opportunity for success.
Depends what you think "success" might be. Egypt could very much use a Mandela who will not use power to further narrow political interests but rather will try to govern in an inclusive manner. That seems to be one of the major problems with the Brotherhood.
Would that even be such a great thing? It isn't like South Africa is a lovely place post-Mandela.
A lot better than the alternative could have been.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 03:47:51 AM
Quote from: Tamas on July 06, 2013, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 06, 2013, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 06, 2013, 01:06:06 PM
So they've named Mohamd Elbaradei as the next Egyptian PM to be overthrown by the army.
They'll keep it up until the people of Egypt realize the most important truth about a democratic government. It isn't there to do stuff for the people. It is the people acting in congress. If the egyptian citizen think that he can just stand by while he grants the latest in a long line of coup victims to be license to try and run the country it will always fail.
You are right but good luck with that. "Government isn't there to do stuff for people" is a novel concept to a significant portion of the world.
What is it there for, Tamas.
It's right there in the post Tamas quoted: to resolve differences of opinion.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 12:51:58 PM
It's right there in the post Tamas quoted: to resolve differences of opinion.
That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does. Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 01:46:22 PM
That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does. Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.
Going to court is not the only way to resolve differences.
Coming to a group decision when individuals have different preferences is very much the objective of democracy.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 01:55:16 PM
Coming to a group decision when individuals have different preferences is very much the objective of democracy.
:hmm: I hope there are other objectives out there. :unsure:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 01:55:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 01:46:22 PM
That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does. Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.
Going to court is not the only way to resolve differences.
Coming to a group decision when individuals have different preferences is very much the objective of democracy.
That's still really a means. Your objective needs to be more then to accomplish objectives. Still, that's presumably doing stuff for people.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 01:46:22 PM
That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does. Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.
Well if that isn't than neither is 'doing stuff for people'. Pretty sure the ancient Sumerians didn't create all those governments to do that.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 02:03:38 PM
That's still really a means. Your objective needs to be more then to accomplish objectives. Still, that's presumably doing stuff for people.
OK Raz, what is the true objective of democracy?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 02:09:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 02:03:38 PM
That's still really a means. Your objective needs to be more then to accomplish objectives. Still, that's presumably doing stuff for people.
OK Raz, what is the true objective of democracy?
To provide required and desired services to the citizenry.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 02:03:38 PM
That's still really a means.
What is government if not a means?
Quote from: Razgovory
Your objective needs to be more then to accomplish objectives.
Why?
Cause it's circular logic.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 02:16:33 PM
Cause it's circular logic.
No it's not. Timmy wants a colony on Mars. You want a bigger disability check. The purpose of democracy is decide which one we, as a collective, will do.
The purpose of democracy is not plant a colony on Mars.
Not at all. "objectives" implies that there is more than one objective in play(as does common sense), so one objective can reference another without causing a referential loop.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 02:20:09 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 02:16:33 PM
Cause it's circular logic.
No it's not. Timmy wants a colony on Mars. You want a bigger disability check. The purpose of democracy is decide which one we, as a collective, will do.
The purpose of democracy is not plant a colony on Mars.
Okay, and tell me how that fits with what Tamas said then.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 02:23:20 PM
Okay, and tell me how that fits with what Tamas said then.
You're right, Tamas jumped the rails a bit.
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2013, 02:05:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 01:46:22 PM
That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does. Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.
Well if that isn't than neither is 'doing stuff for people'. Pretty sure the ancient Sumerians didn't create all those governments to do that.
The ancient Sumerians in all likelyhood created government to build and maintain city walls and irrigation ditches as well as meter and control water use.
Egyptian Kid explains why he's protesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QeDm2PrNV1I
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 02:20:09 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 02:16:33 PM
Cause it's circular logic.
No it's not. Timmy wants a colony on Mars. You want a bigger disability check. The purpose of democracy is decide which one we, as a collective, will do.
The purpose of democracy is not plant a colony on Mars.
True.
But Tamas said government, not democracy.
And Raz is correct that the purpose of government is not just to decide what to do but to actually do it.
Quote from: Viking on July 06, 2013, 01:51:26 PM
They'll keep it up until the people of Egypt realize the most important truth about a democratic government. It isn't there to do stuff for the people. It is the people acting in congress. If the egyptian citizen think that he can just stand by while he grants the latest in a long line of coup victims to be license to try and run the country it will always fail.
I don't think you can conclude the the opposition to the Brotherhood government didn't understand that. The complaint against Morsi was that he wasn't acting in concert according to the rules of the game but was absuing his authority to destroy all competing checks on his power and prepare the way for authoritarian, illiberal rule.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 08, 2013, 06:01:02 PM
True.
But Tamas said government, not democracy.
Tamas made his comment in response to Viking's post about Egyptians not understanding the purpose of *democratic* government.
QuoteAnd Raz is correct that the purpose of government is not just to decide what to do but to actually do it.
Raz said the purpose of government is to provide services to its citizenry. There have been governments throughout history that have not cared a fig about this. The Khmer Rouge, to start with.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 06:22:22 PM
Raz said the purpose of government is to provide services to its citizenry. There have been governments throughout history that have not cared a fig about this. The Khmer Rouge, to start with.
Not everything with a purpose ends up fulfilling it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 06:22:22 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 08, 2013, 06:01:02 PM
True.
But Tamas said government, not democracy.
Tamas made his comment in response to Viking's post about Egyptians not understanding the purpose of *democratic* government.
QuoteAnd Raz is correct that the purpose of government is not just to decide what to do but to actually do it.
Raz said the purpose of government is to provide services to its citizenry. There have been governments throughout history that have not cared a fig about this. The Khmer Rouge, to start with.
Oh I don't know, the Khmer Rouge was know for it's fairly extensive adult education program. "Services" can be any number of things including defense against enemies or running a system of laws.
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
Not everything with a purpose ends up fulfilling it.
A government that does not operate under the same assumptions as you is not proof your assumptions are correct.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 07:06:03 PM
Oh I don't know, the Khmer Rouge was know for it's fairly extensive adult education program. "Services" can be any number of things including defense against enemies or running a system of laws.
:D Sure, and they provided the valuable service of encouraging manual labor too. And rezoning as well.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 07:15:36 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
Not everything with a purpose ends up fulfilling it.
A government that does not operate under the same assumptions as you is not proof your assumptions are correct.
:huh: My statement is not trying to prove anything, it just refutes your reasoning. The purpose of cops is to protect the public, and that would still be true even if one of the cops turns out to be a serial killer.
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2013, 07:36:16 PM
:huh: My statement is not trying to prove anything, it just refutes your reasoning. The purpose of cops is to protect the public, and that would still be true even if one of the cops turns out to be a serial killer.
It's circular. The true purpose of government(tm) is to provide services; any government that does not do so is not a true government(tm).
There have been plenty of governments throughout history and across the world that had a different conception of the purpose of government.
I didn't know that Dguller made that argument.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 07:06:03 PM
Oh I don't know, the Khmer Rouge was know for it's fairly extensive adult education program. "Services" can be any number of things including defense against enemies or running a system of laws.
:D Sure, and they provided the valuable service of encouraging manual labor too. And rezoning as well.
They did have a military right? That's a service.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 08, 2013, 07:49:22 PM
I didn't know that Dguller made that argument.
Me neither. IMO, DGuller was saying something completely different.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 08, 2013, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: Viking on July 06, 2013, 01:51:26 PM
They'll keep it up until the people of Egypt realize the most important truth about a democratic government. It isn't there to do stuff for the people. It is the people acting in congress. If the egyptian citizen think that he can just stand by while he grants the latest in a long line of coup victims to be license to try and run the country it will always fail.
I don't think you can conclude the the opposition to the Brotherhood government didn't understand that. The complaint against Morsi was that he wasn't acting in concert according to the rules of the game but was absuing his authority to destroy all competing checks on his power and prepare the way for authoritarian, illiberal rule.
I didn't comment on if "any" or "some" of the opposition knew that. I don't know if the present opposition knows this, I suspect they do. But I wasn't referring to them. I was referring to "the egyptian citizen" that thinks that government is a license granted to a ruling class to provide goods (stability, bread, circus and glory) in exchange for power (to enrich the ruling class). It is the normal mode of traditional muslim rule where a ruler has license to rule and should he lose (in the chinese vernacular) the mandate of heaven then the ruler should be overthrown.
The idea that the people are sovereign is NOT a human universal. It is in fact one of those W.E.I.R.D. exceptions that make the west the special place that it is.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 06:22:22 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 08, 2013, 06:01:02 PM
True.
But Tamas said government, not democracy.
Tamas made his comment in response to Viking's post about Egyptians not understanding the purpose of *democratic* government.
As I said in my reply to JR, that is not what I said or meant.
From the Ottawa Citizen:
QuoteMubarak understood his country better than Western know-it-alls
By John Bolton, Ottawa Citizen July 8, 2013
Just two-and-a-half years ago, advocates of "the Arab Spring" argued it would bring democracy to the Middle East and end terrorism's attraction in the Muslim world. Large demonstrations, especially in Cairo's Tahrir Square, filled Western television screens, and our media reported excitedly that the Internet-age demonstrators used Facebook and Twitter. The fall of Egypt's Hosni Mubarak, in power for three decades, embodied the widely accepted narrative that ousting authoritarian regimes was easy, costless and unambiguously positive.
But not all street demonstrators are Jeffersonian democrats, not all users of social media are Thoreau-style idealists, and not all post-authoritarian regimes are better than what they replace. Remember Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary, where he defined "Conservative" as "a statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
The Arab Spring stemmed largely from political and economic factors embedded in the region, not from the actions of outside powers. Nonetheless, in 2011, U.S. President Barack Obama's month-long equivocation about Egypt's direction, followed at last by supporting Mubarak's ouster, undoubtedly had negative consequences in Egypt and throughout the region. Loyalty and upholding commitments are valuable commodities in international affairs, even if the regime involved doesn't meet our standards of democratic purity. But loyalty works both ways, and the impression Obama created was that America expected it from its allies, but wasn't prepared to extend it in return. We will pay for that perception as a fair-weather friend.
Obviously, Mubarak was no Jeffersonian democrat. The former commander of Egypt's air force, he became Anwar Sadat's vice president, and then president when the Muslim Brotherhood assassinated Sadat for concluding the Camp David peace accord with Israel. Mubarak led a violent crackdown against the Brotherhood, watched it warily for 30 years, and warned the West that if his government fell, the Brotherhood would inevitably take power. Western cognoscenti scoffed at Mubarak's prediction, calling it just a convenient excuse for repressing the Brotherhood and other dissidents threatening the ultimate authority of the military, which controlled Egypt since King Farouk's 1952 overthrow.
Mubarak, it transpires, understood his country better than the Western know-it-alls. When Obama abandoned Mubarak, the military did too, having already lost confidence in him because his wife and son, Gamal, were scheming to install Gamal as his successor. Gamal utterly lacked his father's military credentials, and Pharaonic succession in the 21st century proved to be as unpopular with the generals as with Egypt's population generally.
The military had little desire to govern openly, so it did what "the Arab Spring" professed to want: move to "democracy" by holding elections. Having overthrown Mubarak, however, the street protesters had no coherent, operational roadmap. Only after the political process was launched did they and their Western allies begin to realize they were moving inexorably toward electoral victory for the Muslim Brotherhood and even more radical Islamicists. Indeed, in what foreign observers characterized as generally free and fair elections, the Islamicists won almost three-quarters of the seats in Egypt's two houses of parliament, and the Brotherhood's Mohammed Morsi narrowly won the presidency over a Mubarak-era figure. It was surprising not that Morsi's win was narrow, but that a symbol of the supposedly hated Mubarak era did so well.
In office for a year, Morsi's supporters rewrote Egypt's constitution to try to lock the Brotherhood into power permanently, while ignoring a sinking economy that went into free fall. This combination of economic ruin and the blind pursuit of an Islamicist state brought demonstrators back into Egypt's streets, even though many of them might well support an Islamicist agenda once the economy improved and more competent leadership emerged. It was disagreement over priorities, not love of democracy, which inspired many Tahrir Square demonstrators this summer.
So, Egypt's military overthrew a second government in two years (this one popularly elected), and launched a process to schedule elections (again) and rewrite the constitution (again). This time, we are told (again), it will work out.
Plainly, however, democracy is more than just holding elections and counting votes. As John Stuart Mill wrote in Representative Government, a people have to be "willing to receive" such government, they have to "be willing and able to do what is necessary for its preservation," and "they should be willing and able to fulfil the duties and discharge the functions which it imposes on them." Egypt and most other Arab Spring countries have simply not yet achieved these conditions. This is no criticism of a region or a people. Europe did not exactly cover itself with democratic glory in much of the 20th century, and today in Russia we see a country sliding out of a brief season of democracy back into authoritarianism.
The lesson for America is to give priority to its national interests, not abstract democratic theory. Most importantly, Egypt's adherence to Camp David is the foundation of U.S. Middle East policy and Israel's security, and Mubarak never wavered in his commitment to the treaty. In the 2012 Egyptian elections, by contrast, Mohammed Morsi was not alone in questioning Camp David's legitimacy. Even secular politicians attacked its central element, "land for peace," implying that withdrawal could ultimately be an option.
Moreover, keeping the Suez Canal open is critical to the world economy. An unstable Egypt inevitably raises international fears that terrorists or saboteurs will obstruct the canal, with potentially devastating consequences. Global oil-price increases last week underlined this fundamental geopolitical reality.
We should insist on Egypt meeting its international commitments, and worry less about second-guessing what could be a lengthy transition to representative government. That does not mean abandoning America's commitment to its own ideals, or ceasing to insist that any Egyptian government respect individual rights, such as those of religious minorities such as Coptic Christians. But it also means remembering our own fundamental priorities in the Middle East, and having a more realistic understanding both of Egypt's basic circumstances and our ability to influence Egypt's domestic politics than we have displayed since the Arab Spring began.
John R. Bolton is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. From August 2005 to December 2006, he served as the U.S. permanent representative to the United Nations. From 2001 to 2005, he was under secretary of state for arms control and international security.
I'm surprised that George W. Bush would appoint a representative to the United Nation with such a pragmatic point of view.
Not to mention a magnificent 'stache.
Quote
Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood rejects timetable
The Muslim Brotherhood says the transition plan proposed by the interim president would take the country "back to zero".
The Muslim Brotherhood party has rejected the transition timetable set out by the military-backed interim president.
Essam el-Erian, a senior Brotherhood figure and deputy head of its Freedom and Justice Party, the political arm of the Muslim Brotherhood, rejected the transition timetable on Tuesday, saying it takes the country "back to zero".
"The cowards are not sleeping, but Egypt will not surrender. The people created their constitution with their votes," el-Eiran wrote on his Facebook page, referring to the constitution that Islamists pushed to finalisation and then was passed in a national referendum during former President Mohamed Morsi's year in office.
Egypt's interim administration published a timetable for a transition to a new democratic government hours after the army shot dead scores of people outside the elite Republican Guards' headquarters in Cairo.
Interim president Adly Mansour on Tuesday morning released details of a timetable for parliamentary elections by 2014, after which a date will be announced for a presidential ballot.
The country will have five months to amend the current draft constitution, suspended following Morsi's removal last week, ratify it in a referendum, and then hold parliamentary elections, according to the text of the 33-article decree published online.
The process will take no more than 210 days, according to the decree, meaning elections will be by February at the latest.
Al Jazeera's Nicole Johnston, reporting from Cairo, said that some liberal opposition parties have said that instead of the constitution being amended a new one should be made.
She added that Cairo has been quiet, with a few rallies and protests at Nasr City but not in large numbers. Our correspondent said that more pro-Morsi protesters are expected to turn out later.
Military issues warning
The Egyptian military on Tuesday issued a statement defending the legitimacy of the interim government,.
Defense Minister Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi warned against anyone who would put "the homeland at the people in jeopardy" and any attempt to disrupt the country's "difficult and complex" transition.
The Brotherhood called for nationwide protests to take place a day after a deadly shooting at the site of a sit-in by its supporters in Cairo left at least 51 dead and hundreds injured.
The Freedom and Justice Party on Monday demanded "an uprising by the great people of Egypt against those trying to steal their revolution with tanks".
The military blamed "terrorists" on Monday, while witnesses, including Brotherhood supporters at the scene, said security forces fired only warning shots and tear gas, and that "thugs" in civilian clothes carried out the shootings.
Egypt's prosecutor general onTuesday began investigating 650 people suspected of involvement Monday's violence, although it is not clear who, exactly, is under investigation.
The US called on the Egyptian army to exercise "maximum restraint", while also condemning "explicit" Brotherhood calls to violence.
The Muslim Brotherhood has asked the "international community to stop the "massacres" in the aftermath of last week's ousting of Morsi by the military.
Meanwhile, one of the leading critics of Morsi's government, the United Arab Emirates, has pledged $3bn in loans and grants to Egypt's new government. The Gulf state alleges that Islamist groups backed by the Muslim Brotherhood have sought to topple its Western-backed ruling system.
Saudi Arabia also approved a $5bn aid package to Egypt, which is to include $2bn in central bank deposits, $2bn in in energy products and $1bn in cash.
On Monday, Egypt closed down the Cairo headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood, saying weapons were found inside it.
The latest violence further raised political tensions, even as the country's interim leadership struggled to find a consensus on who should be the prime minister.
The Salafist Nour Party announced it was suspending its participation from talks over new government in protest against Monday's fatal shootings.
With both the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists refusing to participate it sounds like the transition will be Egypt's greatest government since Mubarak. :bowler:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2013, 02:09:48 PM
OK Raz, what is the true objective of democracy?
You're talking about many things though. Tamas mentioned 'democratic government'. There's two things there and, I think, you're both right.
Government is definitely there to provide things - it has always been so. The first role of government is to provide order and security, both internally and externally. Then as societies become richer and more advanced that remit expands, it's not just about providing a secure state in which people can live and trade but providing the infrastructure that enables them to do so: roads, clean water, markets, standardised weights and measures, currency.
Democratic government is a way of mediating different visions of society and what government should do. It's a system that allows different view to participate and even predominate without challenging the legitimacy of the system as a whole. It allows for accountable government and safe transfers of power.
For what it's worth I think the MB failed far more at the government bit than the democratic bit.
So far the Salafists have vetoed two PMs and then threatened to walk out after the shooting of pro-Morsi protesters. It looks like they've walked back on that and are participating again. They've even agreed to a PM candidate who has said he wants to appoint the MB to his cabinet. How and who, given that most of the leadership are in custody (ironically for plotting to overthrow the government), isn't clear.
I'm still unsure about this all, my instinct is that when your opponent's making an error you shouldn't interrupt them and Morsi's term was proving a disaster for the MB - had they refused to abdicate at election time it wouldn't have been difficult to muster up the protests or army. However the army has clearly learned a lot from the SCAF debacle. They really seem to be reaching out to all the political forces in Egypt, which they didn't do at all when they were last in charge (they liked dealing with Mubarakists and the MB). They've also announced a public review and investigation into the shooting of pro-Morsi demonstrators which is a mile from the way the SCAF behaved.
On the other hand some things still niggle about military rule. The press conference yesterday (on the shootings) couldn't get started until the al-Jazeera and CNN reporters were removed due to hostile chants from the press corps. No-one asked any questions about the army's version of events and, after the statement by the army press officer, the journalists gave him a standing ovation.
QuoteA great deal is determined by how the new leader deals with this. Its a bit of a crap shoot. A new democracy might get someone like a Mandela or a Washington who set the bar high for future leaders. Or not.
One problem was that Morsi has never really been a leader of the MB. He was an apparatchik who was a back-up candidate in case (as happened) the main MB candidate was not allowed to run. So there was always a challenge for Morsi over doing anything too striking and really a question of how in charge he was.
It'd be like if South Africa got Mbeki because of a court ruling prohibiting Mandela from running based on the old laws.
more than a few people warned that the "Arab Spring" would be an Islamist Winter.
Islam is incompatible with democracy - news at 11.
G.
Grallon, why are you so intolerant and culturally insensitive?
Another victory for America :)
Quote
Exclusive: US bankrolled anti-Morsi activists
Documents reveal US money trail to Egyptian groups that pressed for president's removal.
Emad Mekay Last Modified: 10 Jul 2013 13:29
Berkeley, United States - President Barack Obama recently stated the United States was not taking sides as Egypt's crisis came to a head with the military overthrow of the democratically elected president.
But a review of dozens of US federal government documents shows Washington has quietly funded senior Egyptian opposition figures who called for toppling of the country's now-deposed president Mohamed Morsi.
Documents obtained by the Investigative Reporting Program at UC Berkeley show the US channeled funding through a State Department programme to promote democracy in the Middle East region. This programme vigorously supported activists and politicians who have fomented unrest in Egypt, after autocratic president Hosni Mubarak was ousted in a popular uprising in February 2011.
The State Department's programme, dubbed by US officials as a "democracy assistance" initiative, is part of a wider Obama administration effort to try to stop the retreat of pro-Washington secularists, and to win back influence in Arab Spring countries that saw the rise of Islamists, who largely oppose US interests in the Middle East.
Activists bankrolled by the programme include an exiled Egyptian police officer who plotted the violent overthrow of the Morsi government, an anti-Islamist politician who advocated closing mosques and dragging preachers out by force, as well as a coterie of opposition politicians who pushed for the ouster of the country's first democratically elected leader, government documents show.
Information obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, interviews, and public records reveal Washington's "democracy assistance" may have violated Egyptian law, which prohibits foreign political funding.
It may also have broken US government regulations that ban the use of taxpayers' money to fund foreign politicians, or finance subversive activities that target democratically elected governments.
'Bureau for Democracy'
Washington's democracy assistance programme for the Middle East is filtered through a pyramid of agencies within the State Department. Hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars is channeled through the Bureau for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor (DRL), The Middle East Partnership Initiative (MEPI), USAID, as well as the Washington-based, quasi-governmental organisation the National Endowment for Democracy (NED).
In turn, those groups re-route money to other organisations such as the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute (NDI), and Freedom House, among others. Federal documents show these groups have sent funds to certain organisations in Egypt, mostly run by senior members of anti-Morsi political parties who double as NGO activists.
The Middle East Partnership Initiative - launched by the George W Bush administration in 2002 in a bid to influence politics in the Middle East in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks - has spent close to $900m on democracy projects across the region, a federal grants database shows.
USAID manages about $1.4bn annually in the Middle East, with nearly $390m designated for democracy promotion, according to the Washington-based Project on Middle East Democracy (POMED).
The US government doesn't issue figures on democracy spending per country, but Stephen McInerney, POMED's executive director, estimated that Washington spent some $65m in 2011 and $25m in 2012. He said he expects a similar amount paid out this year.
A main conduit for channeling the State Department's democracy funds to Egypt has been the National Endowment for Democracy. Federal documents show NED, which in 2011 was authorised an annual budget of $118m by Congress, funneled at least $120,000 over several years to an exiled Egyptian police officer who has for years incited violence in his native country.
This appears to be in direct contradiction to its Congressional mandate, which clearly states NED is to engage only in "peaceful" political change overseas.
Exiled policeman
Colonel Omar Afifi Soliman - who served in Egypt's elite investigative police unit, notorious for human rights abuses - began receiving NED funds in 2008 for at least four years.
During that time he and his followers targeted Mubarak's government, and Soliman later followed the same tactics against the military rulers who briefly replaced him. Most recently Soliman set his sights on Morsi's government.
Soliman, who has refugee status in the US, was sentenced in absentia last year for five years imprisonment by a Cairo court for his role in inciting violence in 2011 against the embassies of Israel and Saudi Arabia, two US allies.
He also used social media to encourage violent attacks against Egyptian officials, according to court documents and a review of his social media posts.
US Internal Revenue Service documents reveal thatNED paid tens of thousands of dollars to Soliman through an organisation he created called Hukuk Al-Nas (People's Rights), based in Falls Church, Virginia. Federal forms show he is the only employee.
After he was awarded a 2008 human rights fellowship at NED and moved to the US, Soliman received a second $50,000 NED grant in 2009 for Hukuk Al-Nas. In 2010, he received $60,000 and another $10,000 in 2011.
In an interview with the Investigative Reporting Program at UC Berkeley, Soliman reluctantly admitted he received US government funding from the National Endowment for Democracy, but complained it wasn't enough. "It is like $2000 or $2,500 a month," he said. "Do you think this is too much? Obama wants to give us peanuts. We will not accept that."
NED has removed public access to its Egyptian grant recipients in 2011 and 2012 from its website. NED officials didn't respond to repeated interview requests.
'Pro bono advice'
NED's website says Soliman spreads only nonviolent literature, and his group was set up to provide "immediate, pro bono legal advice through a telephone hotline, instant messaging, and other social networking tools".
However, in Egyptian media interviews, social media posts and YouTube videos, Soliman encouraged the violent overthrow of Egypt's government, then led by the Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party.
"Incapacitate them by smashing their knee bones first," he instructed followers on Facebook in late June, as Morsi's opponents prepared massive street rallies against the government. Egypt's US-funded and trainedmilitary later used those demonstrations to justify its coup on July 3.
"Make a road bump with a broken palm tree to stop the buses going into Cairo, and drench the road around it with gas and diesel. When the bus slows down for the bump, set it all ablaze so it will burn down with all the passengers inside ... God bless," Soliman's post read.
In late May he instructed, "Behead those who control power, water and gas utilities."
Soliman removed several older social media posts after authorities in Egypt took notice of his subversive instructions, court documents show.
More recent Facebook instructions to his 83,000 followers range from guidelines on spraying roads with a mix of auto oil and gas - "20 liters of oil to 4 liters of gas"- to how to thwart cars giving chase.
On a YouTube video, Soliman took credit for a failed attempt in December to storm the Egyptian presidential palace with handguns and Molotov cocktails to oust Morsi.
"We know he gets support from some groups in the US, but we do not know he is getting support from the US government. This would be news to us," said an Egyptian embassy official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak to the media.
Funding other Morsi opponents
Other beneficiaries of US government funding are also opponents of the now-deposed president, some who had called for Morsi's removal by force.
The Salvation Front main opposition bloc, of which some members received US funding, has backed street protest campaigns that turned violent against the elected government, in contradiction of many of the State Department's own guidelines.
A longtime grantee of the National Endowment for Democracy and other US democracy groups is a 34-year old Egyptian woman, Esraa Abdel-Fatah, who sprang to notoriety during the country's pitched battle over the new constitution in December 2012.
She exhorted activists to lay siege to mosques and drag from pulpits all Muslim preachers and religious figures who supported the country's the proposed constitution, just before it went to a public referendum.
The act of besieging mosques has continued ever since, and several people have died in clashes defending them.
Federal records show Abdel-Fatah's NGO, the Egyptian Democratic Academy, received support from NED, MEPI and NDI, among other State Department-funded groups "assisting democracy". Records show NED gave her organisation a one-year $75,000 grant in 2011.
We were told by the Americans that if we see big street protests that sustain themselves for a week, they will reconsider all current US policies towards the Muslim Brotherhood regime.
Saaddin Ibrahim, Egyptian-American politician opposed to Morsi
Abdel-Fatah is politically active, crisscrossing Egypt to rally support for her Al-Dostor Party, which is led by former UN nuclear chief Mohamed El-Baradei, the most prominent figure in the Salvation Front. She lent full support to the military takeover, and urged the West not call it a "coup".
"June 30 will be the last day of Morsi's term," she told the press a few weeks before the coup took place.
US taxpayer money has also been sent to groups set up by some of Egypt's richest people, raising questions about waste in the democracy programme.
Michael Meunier is a frequent guest on TV channels that opposed Morsi. Head of the Al-Haya Party, Meunier - a dual US-Egyptian citizen - has quietly collected US funding through his NGO, Hand In Hand for Egypt Association.
Meunier's organisation was founded by some of the most vehement opposition figures, including Egypt's richest man and well-known Coptic Christian billionaire Naguib Sawiris, Tarek Heggy, an oil industry executive, Salah Diab, Halliburton's partner in Egypt, and Usama Ghazali Harb, a politician with roots in the Mubarak regime and a frequent US embassy contact.
Meunier has denied receiving US assistance, but government documents show USAID in 2011 granted his Cairo-based organisation $873,355. Since 2009, it has taken in $1.3 million from the US agency.
Meunier helped rally the country's five million Christian Orthodox Coptic minority, who oppose Morsi's Islamist agenda, to take to the streets against the president on June 30.
Reform and Development Party member Mohammed Essmat al-Sadat received US financial support through his Sadat Association for Social Development, a grantee of The Middle East Partnership Initiative.
The federal grants records and database show in 2011 Sadat collected $84,445 from MEPI "to work with youth in the post-revolutionary Egypt".
Sadat was a member of the coordination committee, the main organising body for the June 30 anti-Morsi protest. Since 2008, he has collected $265,176 in US funding. Sadat announced he will be running for office again in upcoming parliamentary elections.
After soldiers and police killed more than 50 Morsi supporters on Monday, Sadat defended the use of force and blamed the Muslim Brotherhood, saying it used women and children as shields.
Some US-backed politicians have said Washington tacitly encouraged them to incite protests.
"We were told by the Americans that if we see big street protests that sustain themselves for a week, they will reconsider all current US policies towards the Muslim Brotherhood regime," said Saaddin Ibrahim, an Egyptian-American politician opposed Morsi.
Ibrahim's Ibn Khaldoun Center in Cairo receives US funding, one of the largest recipients of democracy promotion money in fact.
His comments followed statements by other Egyptian opposition politicians claiming they had been prodded by US officials to whip up public sentiment against Morsi before Washington could publicly weigh in.
Democracy programme defence
The practice of funding politicians and anti-government activists through NGOs was vehemently defended by the State Department and by a group of Washington-based Middle East experts close to the programme.
"The line between politics and activism is very blurred in this country," said David Linfield, spokesman for the US Embassy in Cairo.
Others said the United States cannot be held responsible for activities by groups it doesn't control.
"It's a very hot and dynamic political scene," said Michelle Dunne, an expert at the Atlantic Council think-tank. Her husband, Michael Dunne, was given a five-year jail sentence in absentia by a Cairo court for his role in political funding in Egypt.
"Just because you give someone some money, you cannot take away their freedom or the position they want to take," said Dunne.
Elliot Abrams, a former official in the administration of George W. Bush and a member of the Working Group on Egypt that includes Dunne, denied in an email message that the US has paid politicians in Egypt, or elsewhere in the Middle East.
"The US does not provide funding for parties or 'local politicians' in Egypt or anywhere else," said Abrams. "That is prohibited by law and the law is scrupulously obeyed by all US agencies, under careful Congressional oversight."
But a State Department official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity, said American support for foreign political activists was in line with American principles.
"The US government provides support to civil society, democracy and human rights activists around the world, in line with our long-held values, such as respecting the fundamental human rights of free speech, peaceful assembly, and human dignity," the official wrote in an email. "US outreach in Egypt is consistent with these principles."
A Cairo court convicted 43 local and foreign NGO workers last month on charges of illegally using foreign funds to stir unrest in Egypt. The US and UN expressed concern over the move.
Out of line
Some Middle East observers suggested the US' democracy push in Egypt may be more about buying influence than spreading human rights and good governance.
"Funding of politicians is a problem," said Robert Springborg, who evaluated democracy programmes for the State Department in Egypt, and is now a professor at the National Security Department of the Naval Postgraduate School at Monterey, California.
"If you run a programme for electoral observation, or for developing media capacity for political parties, I am not against that. But providing lots of money to politicians - I think that raises lots of questions," Springborg said.
Some Egyptians, meanwhile, said the US was out of line by sending cash through its democracy programme in the Middle East to organisations run by political operators.
"Instead of being sincere about backing democracy and reaching out to the Egyptian people, the US has chosen an unethical path," said Esam Neizamy, an independent researcher into foreign funding in Egypt, and a member of the country's Revolutionary Trustees, a group set up to protect the 2011 revolution.
"The Americans think they can outsmart lots of people in the Middle East. They are being very hostile against the Egyptian people who have nothing but goodwill for them - so far," Neizamy said.
So will Morsi become the new Salvador Allende?
Kick them when they're down:
Quote
Egypt orders arrest of Brotherhood leader
Last Modified: 10 Jul 2013 15:06
Muslim Brotherhood officials are accused of inciting Monday's violence outside the Republican Guard club [Reuters]
Egypt's prosecutor's office has ordered the arrest of Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohamed Badie on charges of inciting violence outside the Republican Guard headquarters where 51 people were killed, state news agency MENA has reported.
Other senior Brotherhood officials were also ordered on Wednesday to be detained, including Badie's deputy Mahmoud Ezzat and party leaders Essam El-Erian and Mohamed el-Beltagy.
One day earlier, Egypt's prosecutor general began investigating 650 people suspected of involvement in Monday's violence, although it did not say who, exactly, was under investigation.
Al Jazeera's Rawya Rageh, reporting from Cairo, said nine others are included in the arrest warrant.
The Muslim Brotherhood has called for an "uprising" to restore Morsi after Monday's shootings.
Thousands of Brotherhood followers have been maintaining a vigil near a mosque in northeast Cairo demanding the reinstatement of President Mohamed Morsi, deposed last week in a coup.
Rageh said that the leaders who have arrest warrants against them are currently present at the vigil at Rabaa Adaweya mosque in northeast Cairo and that it will be difficult for the police to enter the large crowd of pro-Morsi supporters.
Cabinet offer rejected
The Muslim Brotherhood on Wednesday also rejected an offer to join Egypt's transitional cabinet, as new interim Prime Minister Hazem el-Beblawi announced he would start work on forming an interim government once he meets liberal leaders.
Beblawi told the Reuters news agency on that he accepted that it would be difficult to win the unanimous support of Egyptians for his new government.
"Of course we respect the public opinion and we try to comply with the expectation of the people, but there is always a time of choice, there is more than one alternative, you cannot satisfy all of the people," he said.
Meanwhile, Egypt's main liberal coalition, the National Salvation Front, withdrew its earlier statement rejecting the transition plan for interim rule and issued a statement containing milder criticism, Reuters said.
Beblawi, a liberal economist and a former finance minister, was named the new prime minister on Tuesday.
Liberal opposition chief and Nobel Peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei was also named vice president and head of foreign relations.
The appointments were followed by an announcement that ministerial posts in the new government would be offered to members of the Freedom and Justice Party, the Muslim Brotherhood's political arm, and to the Al-Nour Party.
Our corespondent, Rawya Rageh, said that some of the opposition groups like Tamarrod said that they were not consulted, and that the plans for the interim government was a rushed political process done secretly.
Also on Wednesday, the country's new prosecutor general, Hisham Barakat, was sworn in by Mansour.
Political 'manoeuvring'
The administration decisions come almost a week after the military overthrew Morsi and chose chief justice Adly Mansour to head the Arab world's most populous country.
ElBaradei was initially tipped to lead the cabinet but his nomination was rejected by the Nour party. The head of the party added that it was still studying ElBaradei's appointment as vice president.
Beblawi now faces the daunting task of trying to reunite a deeply divided country and rescue its battered economy.
Shortly after the Islamist parties made their statements, Egypt's army chief went on state media to say that the military will not accept political "manoeuvring".
Defence Minister Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi said that "the future of the nation is too important and sacred for maneuvers or hindrance, whatever the justifications".
The blueprint unveiled by Mansour is intended to replace the controversial Islamist-drafted constitution which he suspended following last week's coup.
A committee will be set up to make final improvements to the draft before it is put to a referendum.
Parliamentary elections will then follow within three months and Mansour will announce a date for a presidential election once the new parliament has convened.
Did anybody read all that?
Well I certainly welcome to be proven right about the actual chances of the Arab Spring leading to an enlightened democracy where neither enlightment nor democracy has any tradition, but this is becoming quite ugly.
However, I think at the end of the day, the US was right to put chips on the military. There is no chance for an ideal scenario here, and based on what I have read on the country, the real meltdown is probably yet to come. Better a hardline military dictatorship than chaos ending in an islamist government in that huge-ass, dirt poor country. Better for the rest of the world, not necessarily for the Egyptians, to make that clear.
Also, frustration within the Brotherhood must be extreme right now.
For decades they endured persecution, now they were back in the light but as it seems, only briefly, as a new crackdown is going on.
Quote from: Tamas on July 10, 2013, 01:13:10 PM
Also, frustration within the Brotherhood must be extreme right now.
For decades they endured persecution, now they were back in the light but as it seems, only briefly, as a new crackdown is going on.
I think so. However, the more insightful of their members may welcome this as they are back into their comfort zone.
Quote from: Savonarola on July 10, 2013, 09:47:35 AM
Another victory for America :)
Quote
Exclusive: US bankrolled anti-Morsi activists
Documents reveal US money trail to Egyptian groups that pressed for president's removal.
Emad Mekay Last Modified: 10 Jul 2013 13:29
Conspiracy! :o
Another middle-eastern conspiracy theory that came true?
We are not helping these dudes overcome their conspiracy paranoia.
Christians Targeted for Retribution in Egypt
'The military’s ouster of President Mohamed Morsi has unleashed a new wave of violence by Muslims against Christians whom they blame for having supported the calls to overthrow Mr. Morsi, Egypt’s first Islamist elected leader.
Since Mr. Morsi’s ouster on July 3, a priest has been shot dead in the street, Islamists have painted black X’s on Christian shops to mark them for arson and angry mobs have attacked churches and besieged Christians in their homes. Four Christians were reported slaughtered with knives and machetes in one village last week.
The attacks have hit across the country, in the northern Sinai Peninsula, in a resort town on the Mediterranean coast, in Port Said along the Suez Canal and in isolated villages in upper Egypt.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/world/middleeast/egypt-christians.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/world/middleeast/egypt-christians.html)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F07%2F12%2Fworld%2Fmiddleeast%2F12egypt%2F12egypt-articleLarge.jpg&hash=6feaf2c88ca753974f389049be2345c01cc71d2a)
It's a miracle! :w00t:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/middleeast/improvements-in-egypt-suggest-a-campaign-that-undermined-morsi.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
QuoteSudden Improvements in Egypt Suggest a Campaign to Undermine Morsi
CAIRO — The streets seethe with protests and government ministers are on the run or in jail, but since the military ousted President Mohamed Morsi, life has somehow gotten better for many people across Egypt: Gas lines have disappeared, power cuts have stopped and the police have returned to the street.
The apparently miraculous end to the crippling energy shortages, and the re-emergence of the police, seems to show that the legions of personnel left in place after former President Hosni Mubarak was ousted in 2011 played a significant role — intentionally or not — in undermining the overall quality of life under the Islamist administration of Mr. Morsi.
And as the interim government struggles to unite a divided nation, the Muslim Brotherhood and Mr. Morsi's supporters say the sudden turnaround proves that their opponents conspired to make Mr. Morsi fail. Not only did police officers seem to disappear, but the state agencies responsible for providing electricity and ensuring gas supplies failed so fundamentally that gas lines and rolling blackouts fed widespread anger and frustration.
"This was preparing for the coup," said Naser el-Farash, who served as the spokesman for the Ministry of Supply and Internal Trade under Mr. Morsi. "Different circles in the state, from the storage facilities to the cars that transport petrol products to the gas stations, all participated in creating the crisis."
Working behind the scenes, members of the old establishment, some of them close to Mr. Mubarak and the country's top generals, also helped finance, advise and organize those determined to topple the Islamist leadership, including Naguib Sawiris, a billionaire and an outspoken foe of the Brotherhood; Tahani el-Gebali, a former judge on the Supreme Constitutional Court who is close to the ruling generals; and Shawki al-Sayed, a legal adviser to Ahmed Shafik, Mr. Mubarak's last prime minister, who lost the presidential race to Mr. Morsi.
But it is the police returning to the streets that offers the most blatant sign that the institutions once loyal to Mr. Mubarak held back while Mr. Morsi was in power. Throughout his one-year tenure, Mr. Morsi struggled to appease the police, even alienating his own supporters rather than trying to overhaul the Interior Ministry. But as crime increased and traffic clogged roads — undermining not only the quality of life, but the economy — the police refused to deploy fully.
Until now.
White-clad officers have returned to Cairo's streets, and security forces — widely despised before and after the revolution — intervened with tear gas and shotguns against Islamists during widespread street clashes last week, leading anti-Morsi rioters to laud them as heroes. Posters have gone up around town showing a police officer surrounded by smiling children over the words "Your security is our mission, your safety our goal."
"You had officers and individuals who were working under a specific policy that was against Islamic extremists and Islamists in general," said Ihab Youssef, a retired police officer who runs a professional association for the security forces. "Then all of a sudden the regime flips and there is an Islamic regime ruling. They could never psychologically accept that."
When Mr. Mubarak was removed after nearly 30 years in office in 2011, the bureaucracy he built stayed largely in place. Many business leaders, also a pillar of the old government, retained their wealth and influence.
Despite coming to power through the freest elections in Egyptian history, Mr. Morsi was unable to extend his authority over the sprawling state apparatus, and his allies complained that what they called the "deep state" was undermining their efforts at governing.
While he failed to broaden his appeal and build any kind of national consensus, he also faced an active campaign by those hostile to his leadership, including some of the wealthiest and most powerful pillars of the Mubarak era.
Mr. Sawiris, one of Egypt's richest men and a titan of the old establishment, said Wednesday that he had supported an upstart group called "tamarrod," Arabic for "rebellion," that led a petition drive seeking Mr. Morsi's ouster. He donated use of the nationwide offices and infrastructure of the political party he built, the Free Egyptians. He provided publicity through a popular television network he founded and his major interest in Egypt's largest private newspaper. He even commissioned the production of a popular music video that played heavily on his network.
"Tamarrod did not even know it was me!" he said. "I am not ashamed of it."
He said he had publicly predicted that ousting Mr. Morsi would bolster Egypt's sputtering economy because it would bring in billions of dollars in aid from oil-rich monarchies afraid that the Islamist movement might spread to their shores. By Wednesday, a total of $12 billion had flowed in from Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait. "That will take us for 12 months with no problem," Mr. Sawiris said.
Ms. Gebali, the former judge, said in a telephone interview on Wednesday that she and other legal experts helped tamarrod create its strategy to appeal directly to the military to oust Mr. Morsi and pass the interim presidency to the chief of the constitutional court.
"We saw that there was movement and popular creativity, so we wanted to see if it would have an effect and a constitutional basis," Ms. Gebali said.
Mr. Farash, the trade ministry spokesman under Mr. Morsi, attributed the fuel shortages to black marketers linked to Mr. Mubarak, who diverted shipments of state-subsidized fuel to sell for a profit abroad. Corrupt officials torpedoed Mr. Morsi's introduction of a smart card system to track fuel shipments by refusing to use the devices, he said.
But not everyone agreed with that interpretation, as supporters of the interim government said the improvements in recent days were a reflection of Mr. Morsi's incompetence, not a conspiracy. State news media said energy shortages occurred because consumers bought extra fuel out of fear, which appeared to evaporate after Mr. Morsi's fall. On Wednesday, Al Ahram, the flagship newspaper, said the energy grid had had a surplus in the past week for the first time in months, thanks to "energy-saving measures by the public."
"I feel like Egypt is back," Ayman Abdel-Hakam, a criminal court judge from a Cairo suburb, said after waiting only a few minutes to fill up his car at a downtown gas station. He accused Mr. Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood of trying to seize all state power and accused them of creating the fuel crisis by exporting gasoline to Hamas, the militant Islamic group in the Gaza Strip.
"We had a disease, and we got rid of it," Mr. Abdel-Hakam said.
Ahmed Nabawi, a gas station manager, said he had heard several reasons for the gas crisis: technical glitches at a storage facility, a shipment of low-quality gas from abroad and unnecessary stockpiling by the public. Still, he was amazed at how quickly the crisis disappeared.
"We went to sleep one night, woke up the next day, and the crisis was gone," he said, casually sipping tea in his office with his colleagues.
Regardless of the reasons behind the crisis, he said, Mr. Morsi's rule had not helped.
"No one wanted to cooperate with his people because they didn't accept him," he said. "Now that he is gone, they are working like they're supposed to."
Right because there is no way that problems under Morsi could have anything to do with plain old-fashioned incompetence.
After all, what reasonable person could find a flaw with a governance approach that consisted of putting an unknown amateur into a the position of highest leadership, packing the bureaucracy with inexperienced party men, turning out experienced or skilled candidates for government posts, and tackling all problems from fiscal policy to energy to justice with the slogan: "Islam is the solution"
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 11, 2013, 07:31:57 PM
Right because there is no way that problems under Morsi could have anything to do with plain old-fashioned incompetence.
After all, what reasonable person could find a flaw with a governance approach that consisted of putting an unknown amateur into a the position of highest leadership, packing the bureaucracy with inexperienced party men, turning out experienced or skilled candidates for government posts, and tackling all problems from fiscal policy to energy to justice with the slogan: "Islam is the solution"
Fortunately nobody wants to do something similar here.
Islam is the problem. Siegebreaker in the solution.
Quote from: Neil on July 11, 2013, 09:21:42 PM
Islam is the problem. Siegebreaker in the solution.
Thanks grallon.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 11, 2013, 07:31:57 PM
After all, what reasonable person could find a flaw with a governance approach that consisted of putting an unknown amateur into a the position of highest leadership, packing the bureaucracy with inexperienced party men, turning out experienced or skilled candidates for government posts, and tackling all problems from fiscal policy to energy to justice with the slogan: "Islam is the solution"
But enough about the Obama administration :D
Oh no he didn't!
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2013, 09:23:58 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 11, 2013, 07:31:57 PM
After all, what reasonable person could find a flaw with a governance approach that consisted of putting an unknown amateur into a the position of highest leadership, packing the bureaucracy with inexperienced party men, turning out experienced or skilled candidates for government posts, and tackling all problems from fiscal policy to energy to justice with the slogan: "Islam is the solution"
But enough about the Obama administration :D
:lol:
Amusing, but as it turns out there is an American politician who follows the Brotherhood policy approach:
QuoteI think it's time for us to just hand it over to God and say, "God, You're going to have to fix this."
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 12, 2013, 10:06:34 AM
Amusing, but as it turns out there is an American politician who follows the Brotherhood policy approach:
QuoteI think it's time for us to just hand it over to God and say, "God, You're going to have to fix this."
:lol:
she is the gift that keeps on giving.
Quote from: Phillip V on July 11, 2013, 06:46:14 PM
Christians Targeted for Retribution in Egypt
'The military's ouster of President Mohamed Morsi has unleashed a new wave of violence by Muslims against Christians whom they blame for having supported the calls to overthrow Mr. Morsi, Egypt's first Islamist elected leader.
Since Mr. Morsi's ouster on July 3, a priest has been shot dead in the street, Islamists have painted black X's on Christian shops to mark them for arson and angry mobs have attacked churches and besieged Christians in their homes. Four Christians were reported slaughtered with knives and machetes in one village last week.
The attacks have hit across the country, in the northern Sinai Peninsula, in a resort town on the Mediterranean coast, in Port Said along the Suez Canal and in isolated villages in upper Egypt.'
In Egypt, there is no problem that can't be solved by a pogrom against Christians.
I bet the Islamic Brotherhood is regretting Egypt's lack of Jews at this moment. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on July 12, 2013, 10:19:19 AM
In Egypt, there is no problem that can't be solved by a pogrom against Christians.
Distressingly true. Like when the swine flu freakout was going on the response in Egypt was to confiscate and kill all of the Christians' pigs. Because, you know, pigs spread swine flu.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 12, 2013, 10:06:34 AM
Amusing, but as it turns out there is an American politician who follows the Brotherhood policy approach:
QuoteI think it's time for us to just hand it over to God and say, "God, You're going to have to fix this."
Aren't you supposed to
not mess with Texas?
Quote from: Malthus on July 12, 2013, 10:19:19 AM
In Egypt, there is no problem that can't be solved by a pogrom against Christians.
I bet the Islamic Brotherhood is regretting Egypt's lack of Jews at this moment. ;)
In Cairo the Coptic and Jewish quarter are one in the same. I thought that would have made a nice one-stop-shop for ethnic cleansing (though when I was in Egypt there were only about 50 Jews in the entire country. It's probably even less now.)
It's like "1984," the old leader just can't be out of office, he needs a show trial:
QuoteDeposed Egyptian president to be investigated
Prosecutors launch criminal probe against Morsi after complaints of spying, inciting violence and economic collapse.
Last Modified: 13 Jul 2013 20:46
Egypt has announced a criminal investigation against deposed President Mohamed Morsi, with prosecutors saying they were examining complaints of spying, inciting violence and ruining the economy.
The public prosecutor's office issued a statement on Saturday saying it had received complaints against Morsi, eight other named Islamist figures including top Brotherhood leader Mohamed Badie, and others it did not identify.
The prosecutors did not say who had made the complaints.
Egypt's first freely elected leader has been held at an undisclosed location since the army removed him from power on July 3, but has not yet been charged with any crime.
In recent days Washington has called for him to be freed and for the authorities to stop arresting leaders of his Muslim Brotherhood.
The complaints are a first step in the criminal process, allowing prosecutors to begin an investigation that can lead to charges.
Announcing the step was unusual: typically prosecutors wait until charges are filed before making public statements.
Badie and several other Brotherhood officials already face charges for inciting violence that were announced earlier this week, but most of them have not been arrested.
Egyptian law allows them to investigate complaints from police or any member of the public.
More demonstrations
Morsi's Brotherhood called on Saturday for more mass demonstrations after a huge march broke up peacefully before dawn, ending a week in which at least 90 people were killed.
Senior Brotherhood figure Essam El-Erian, one of those who faces arrest, called on his Facebook page for more demonstrations on Monday.
"Egypt decides through the ballot box, through protests, mass marches and peaceful sit-ins," he said.
Follow spotlight coverage of the struggling young democracy
The Brotherhood, which has maintained a vigil near a Cairo mosque since before the army removed Morsi, has said it will not leave the streets until he is restored to power.
The military says it deposed Morsi in a justified response to popular demand after millions of people demonstrated against him.
The Brotherhood says it was a coup that reversed democracy.
Turmoil in the most populous Arab state has concerned the West, as Egypt sits astride the Suez Canal and has a strategically important peace treaty with Israel.
The United States has refused to say whether it considered the army takeover a "coup", which under US law would require it to cut off aid including $1.3bn a year in military support.
Egypt's economy has been struggling since a popular uprising toppled President Hosni Mubarak in 2011, and the turmoil since then has driven away investors, draining hard currency reserves and making it difficult to import food and fuel.
The army has appointed a judge as interim president and a liberal economist, Hazem el-Beblawi was named as prime minister, who is trying to cobble together a cabinet likely to be made up mainly of technocrats and liberals.
The spying one amused me, it was the Mossad all along :tinfoil:
When is the execution date?
Hope the spying charge doesn't detract from the seriousness of the economic collapse charge.
Quote from: DGuller on July 13, 2013, 04:55:25 PM
When is the execution date?
:lol: Made me remember that scene from a Hungarian classic, a movie made (and banned) in the 80s, a satire about the early 50s. As the protagonist was waiting to testify in a show trial, the politican who "trained" him insist on reading through his testimony one more time, a few minutes before he enters the courtroom, handing him the text. Protagonist checks the papers and says "I am sorry Comrade, but this is the verdict"
Quote from: Malthus on July 12, 2013, 10:19:19 AMIn Egypt, there is no problem that can't be solved by a pogrom against Christians.
It's a huge problem in Egypt, I feel very sorry for the Copts and other Middle Eastern Christian communities. Really sad to see such an ancient and beautiful faith under attack :(
But I think it's part of wider and growing sectarian conflicts in the Middle East. Probably since the Iraq war the defining feature of all politics increasingly seems to be sectarianism. In Bahrain, in Egypt, in Syria and increasingly within Sunni communities as Saudi money and ideology starts to attack traditional local practice in relatively homogeneous Tunisia and Libya.
Looking at those countries (and Yemen, Pakistan, Saudi and a few others) and it's tough to see how you pull out of sectarian violence like we've seen. It took Europe the Eighty Years War, Thirty Years War, English Civil War, Edict of Nantes and sundry other conflicts I've forgotten or never knew about to end up at some sort of settlement based on coexistence.
According to the Economist, Egypt spends 8% of GDP on energy subsidies. :wacko:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 17, 2013, 03:01:11 AM
According to the Economist, Egypt spends 8% of GDP on energy subsidies. :wacko:
Egypt also subsidizes food, though I'm not sure how much.
Remove the subsidies, and people allegedly start to starve to death (and riot before they starve).
Egypt of course cannot afford the subsidies.
Quote from: Savonarola on July 13, 2013, 04:44:54 PM
Quote from: Malthus on July 12, 2013, 10:19:19 AM
In Egypt, there is no problem that can't be solved by a pogrom against Christians.
I bet the Islamic Brotherhood is regretting Egypt's lack of Jews at this moment. ;)
In Cairo the Coptic and Jewish quarter are one in the same. I thought that would have made a nice one-stop-shop for ethnic cleansing (though when I was in Egypt there were only about 50 Jews in the entire country. It's probably even less now.)
My favorite Jews-left-behind story is Afganistan. As of the last decade, there were exactly two Jews left in Afganistan. As the last survivors of an ancient community, they had jointly inherited an extremely valuable medieval Torah scroll ...
... which they were busy fighting tooth and nail over. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on July 17, 2013, 08:14:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 17, 2013, 03:01:11 AM
According to the Economist, Egypt spends 8% of GDP on energy subsidies. :wacko:
Egypt also subsidizes food, though I'm not sure how much.
Remove the subsidies, and people allegedly start to starve to death (and riot before they starve).
Egypt of course cannot afford the subsidies.
Seems like uncontrolled population growth nailed the Arabs before it nailed the Jews.
Quote from: Malthus on July 17, 2013, 08:14:55 AM
Remove the subsidies, and people allegedly start to starve to death (and riot before they starve).
They are prone to rioting anyway, and I suspect these would die down in a few weeks.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 17, 2013, 09:32:28 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 17, 2013, 08:14:55 AM
Remove the subsidies, and people allegedly start to starve to death (and riot before they starve).
They are prone to rioting anyway, and I suspect these would die down in a few weeks.
:XD:
Quote from: Malthus on July 17, 2013, 08:14:55 AM
Egypt also subsidizes food, though I'm not sure how much.
Remove the subsidies, and people allegedly start to starve to death (and riot before they starve).
Egypt of course cannot afford the subsidies.
I traveled upper Egypt from Abu Simbel to Cairo by bus and by train. I was struck that outside the window facing the Nile there was a thin strip of a garden filled with an incredible bounty. On the other side there was nothing but sand stretching out for as far as the eye could see. Seeing how vast (and how poor) Cairo was it's no wonder the country has the problems it does; especially now that tourism is so far down.
Quote from: Malthus on July 17, 2013, 08:17:43 AM
My favorite Jews-left-behind story is Afganistan. As of the last decade, there were exactly two Jews left in Afganistan. As the last survivors of an ancient community, they had jointly inherited an extremely valuable medieval Torah scroll ...
... which they were busy fighting tooth and nail over. :lol:
:lol:
That would make for a great premise for a foreign language comedy; or a Samuel Beckett play.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 17, 2013, 03:01:11 AM
According to the Economist, Egypt spends 8% of GDP on energy subsidies. :wacko:
They can afford it, however, because of their buoyant economy, efficient tax system, and scrupulously honest civil service.
And the counter-counter-revolution goes on:
Quote
Morsi protests in Egypt turn deadly
Four dead and many injured as violence breaks out in two Egyptian cities between Morsi supporters and opponents.
Last Modified: 22 Jul 2013 18:43
Supporters and opponents of ousted Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi have clashed in central Cairo and north of the capital, hurling stones at each other as security forces fired tear gas to try to disperse them, witnesses said.
Al Jazeera sources say at least four people have been killed in the violence, which erupted when the two groups came into contact on Monday evening.
One of the dead was killed on the outskirts of Tahrir Square, a hotseat for anti-Morsi demonstrators throughout the protests, while a further three were killed in Qalyoub City, sources say.
Al Jazeera's Rawya Rageh, reporting from Cairo, said that two of the people in Qalyoub had been killed by gunfire and the third was hit by a train while fleeing the violence.
At least a further 27 people have been injured in the clashes, three critically, in the worst violence in the Egyptian capital since July 16, when seven died in confrontations.
Injured people have been removed from the fighting and seven Morsi supporters have been detained, according to state media.
An Egyptian security official says supporters of Egypt's ousted President Mohamed Morsi are clashing with opponents holding a sit-in in Cairo's Tahrir Square.
Al Jazeera's Nicole Johnston, reporting from Cairo, said that at this stage it was impossible to verify how the fighting began.
"It certainly started off peacefully, and then the anti-Morsi crowd met the pro-Morsi crowd and the fighting began," our correspondent said.
"It has been reported that people on both sides have guns. Normally we do not see violence so early in the day and the police intervened very quickly, firing teargas in an attempt to disperse the crowd.
"At this stage that does not seem to have worked."
Daily protests
The violence started when several hundred pro-Morsi protesters were marching towards the US Embassy to hold a demonstration against alleged American meddling in Egypt's affairs, the official said.
The march passed an entrance to Tahrir Square manned by anti-Morsi protesters, and the two sides pelted each other with rocks. Gunfire was heard, but it was not clear who was firing.
Armoured vehicles moved and blocked the road, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak to the press.
The Muslim Brotherhood has staged daily protests across the country since Morsi was deposed on July 3, demanding his reinstatement.
Uh-oh:
Quote
Egypt army chief calls for nationwide rallies
Abdel Fattah al-Sisi says all Egyptians should protest on Friday to confront 'violence and terrorism'.
Last Modified: 24 Jul 2013 13:58
Egypt's army chief Abdel Fattah al-Sisi has called for nationwide rallies to give the military a mandate to confront what he termed violence and terrorism following the removal of President Mohamed Morsi.
In a speech on Wednesday at a military graduation ceremony, Sisi called for the protests to be held on Friday, and denied accusations that he had betrayed Morsi.
"I ask ... that next [upcoming] Friday all honest and trustworthy Egyptians must come out," Sisi said in remarks broadcast live by state media. "Why come out? They come out to give me the mandate and order that I confront violence and potential terrorism."
Sisi also vowed to stick to a political roadmap that laid the way for a reform of the constitution and new elections within some six months.
He said his appeal for protests was not a call for violence and expressed support for efforts for national reconciliation.
The Muslim Brotherhood reacted quickly, with senior member Essam al-Erian issuing a statement directed at Sisi saying: "Your threat will not prevent millions to rally against coup ... You have been always in your office conspiring."
Violence continues
The army chief's speech came ahead of proposed "national reconciliation" sessions called for by the interim leader Adly Mansour, and followed renewed violence in and outside the capital Cairo, in which at least three people died.
Sisi offered condolences to the families of victims killed in such violence, which has been seen as recently as Wednesday morning.
Unknown gunmen who shot at Morsi supporters in Cairo killed at least two people, witnesses and health officials confirmed, adding to a death toll of more than 100 people since the president was removed by the military on July 3.
In a separate development on the same day, a bomb exploded at a police station in a province north of Cairo, killing one conscript, and wounding more than 15 people health officials said.
Reconciliation talks
Meanwhile, the Muslim Brotherhood has said it will boycott Mansour's reconciliation talks.
A senior member of Al-Nour, Egypt's most powerful Salafi party, told Al Jazeera that it will also not be attending.
"The Muslim Brotherhood rejected an invite to Wednesday's national reconciliation meeting. For them, the legitimate president of Egypt is Mohamed Morsi," said Al Jazeera's Nadim Baba in Cairo.
Former presidential candidate Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh, who is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, tweeted a warning against the talks.
"Military coup government failed to stop bloodshed and detains tens of peaceful protestors every day and besieges media and closes its channel. Which reconciliation are you calling for?" he wrote.
Earlier this week, Mansour renewed appeals for reconciliation with the Muslim Brotherhood.
"We want to turn a new page in the country's book with no hatred, no malice, no division," he said in a pre-recorded speech that also highlighted the importance of the army in Egypt's history.
The Al-Jazeera translation is amusingly awkward. :)
:unsure:
QuoteMorsi accused of plotting with Hamas
Judge says deposed president is being held for 15 days, accused of aiding prison breaks during Mubarak ousting.
Last Modified: 26 Jul 2013 15:59
Egypt's deposed president, Mohamed Morsi, is being detained for 15 days pending investigation on charges of conspiring with Hamas during the 2011 revolution that toppled Hosni Mubarak, according to the state news agency MENA.
The investigation includes claims that Morsi collaborated with the Palestinian group to carry out "anti-state acts," including attacks on police stations and prisons.
Morsi himself was detained in Wadi Natroun prison during the revolution; he escaped on January 30, 2011, along with dozens of other inmates, including numerous high-ranking members of the Muslim Brotherhood.
The complaint against Morsi accuses him of plotting with Hamas to organise his escape.
An Al Jazeera source in the prosecution confirmed the report on Friday.
This is Morsi's first formal detention since he was toppled in a military coup on July 3. He has been held by the army since then in an undisclosed location.
His 15-day detention can be extended as the inquiry continues.
The report came as supporters and opponents of Morsi prepared for mass national protests called for by the country's army chief, and later by members of the Muslim Brotherhood, in a struggle over the country's future.
The Muslim Brotherhood criticised the ruling and described it as a sign that Mubarak's regime is returning to power.
"The accusations read as if they're a retaliation from the old regime, signalling 'We're back in full force,'" said Brotherhood spokesman Gehad El-Haddad.
Hamas, the rulers of the Gaza strip, called the investigation a "dangerous development."
"It is based on the premise that the Hamas movement is hostile," Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told the AFP news agency. "[It] confirms that the current powers in Egypt are giving up on national causes and even using these issues to deal with other parties - first among them the Palestinian cause."
That's an odd plot development. I had thought that Yousif Six-Pack viewed Hamas positively. :unsure:
To be led by Gender-Issue-Sensitive Egyptian Louis Farrakhan:
QuoteMorsi supporters call for fresh Egypt rallies
Supporters of deposed president urged to come out for "million-person march", despite warnings from authorities.
Last Modified: 29 Jul 2013 15:37
Supporters of Egypt's deposed president Mohamed Morsi have called for a "million-person march" against his ouster after authorities warned of "decisive" action if protesters are considered a threat.
Organisers of protests against the military's overthrow of Morsi urged demonstrators to march on security buildings on Monday night and called a march for Tuesday.
In a statement, the Anti-Coup Alliance of Islamist groups urged Egyptians "to go out into the streets and squares, to regain their freedom and dignity - that are being usurped by the bloody coup - and for the rights of the martyrs assassinated by its bullets."
The protest calls, which raises the possibility of fresh confrontations, comes after at least 72 people were killed at a sit-in in support of Morsi on Saturday morning.
The country has been bitterly divided between camps supporting and opposing the July 3 toppling of Morsi and hundreds of thousands have come our for rival mass rallies. Morsi's opponents had accused him of abusing his power and giving too much influence to his Muslim Brotherhood group.
'Honourable sons of the nation'
The Anti-Coup Alliance also called for protesters to march to security buildings in provinces across Egypt on Monday night "to condemn the criminal acts and the firing of live ammunition by the interior ministry at peaceful demonstrators".
Morsi supporters insist he will be reinstated, but the interim government has said it will move to disperse the protests and warned it would take "decisive" action if demonstrators overstepped their bounds.
The military issued its own warning to Cairo protesters in flyers dropped from helicopters early on Monday.
"We call on you not to approach military facilities or units, help us to protect your safety," it said, addressing protesters as "honourable sons of the nation".
A group of Egyptian NGOs issued a statement on Monday calling for interior minister Mohamed Ibrahim to be dismissed over what it called a "massacre," but also urged the Brotherhood to denounce violence.
"The interior minister should be dismissed and held accountable for his actions," the groups wrote, urging Morsi supporters to "take action to persuade their colleagues and leaders to renounce" violence.
In its first comments on the bloodshed, the interim presidency said on Sunday that it was "saddened" by the deaths, but dubbed the protest area where they occurred a "terror-originating spot".
A crackdown on Morsi supporters continued Monday, with the arrest of two leaders of the moderate Islamist Wasat party, president Abul Ala Mady and vice president Essam Sultan.
State news agency MENA said they were being investigated on suspicion of inciting violence and murder.
EU mediation
With tensions rising, EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton was due to hold discussions with a range of government and opposition figures.
She was expected to meet interim president Adly Mansour and vice president for international affairs Mohamed ElBaradei, as well as members of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Tamarud group that organised protests calling for his removal.
Ashton's visit comes as Egyptian police detained two leaders of a Muslim Brotherhood-allied party in the latest in a wave of arrests.
Security officials said that Abul-Ela Madi and Essam Soltan, who faced arrest warrants linked to allegations of inciting violence, were found hiding in a home in a Cairo neighbourhood located near the main protest site of Morsi's supporters.
The party condemned the arrest of its leaders, saying such measures exacerbate the crisis and add new obstacles to efforts to build bridges.
In a statement, Ashton said she would be calling for "a fully inclusive transition... including the Muslim Brotherhood".
She added that this process must lead as fast as possible to a constitutional system and free and fair elections and a civilian government
"I will also repeat my call to end all violence. I deeply deplore the loss of life," she said.
The Brotherhood's political arm, the Freedom and Justice Party, confirmed it would meet with Ashton on Monday on the basis of "constitutional legitimacy and in pursuit of an end to the military coup".
The group has insisted that it will not accept any solution to the crisis that does not involve Morsi's return to office.
Quote from: Savonarola on July 29, 2013, 12:51:38 PM
To be led by Gender-Issue-Sensitive Egyptian Louis Farrakhan:
My gut feeling says that in the colloquial al-misri arabic "person" is not an inclusive term including women.
I'd some hopes the military had learned their lessons, but sadly this all looks like high Mubarakism and is worse than the SCAF on many real issues.
The interior ministry has re-hired a lot of remnants from Mubarak's regime. The propaganda's spending far more time focusing on Sisi than the ostensibly civilian government he appointed. And the deaths at pro-Morsi protests continue. Over the weekend several died after being shot by the security services but apparently they also let local police brigades join in the shooting which is a worrying sign. The military's also been given back the right to try any civilian in a military court. Sisi has said (like the Muslim Brotherhood) that he has no intention of running for the Presidency, but reports are that he very well might.
It's looking more and more like an old-fashioned coup. But opinion can shift very quickly, the SCAF were initially pretty popular and the MB threw away their (slender) mandate within 18 months. Having said that this current incarnation of military government looks far more ruthless than either of them.
I can't help but feel that El Baradei and others have been very useful idiots here.
Quote from: Savonarola on July 26, 2013, 12:55:29 PM
That's an odd plot development. I had thought that Yousif Six-Pack viewed Hamas positively. :unsure:
Nope. Hamas are very associated with the Muslim Brotherhood and Qatar. If you don't like them because you're a lefty, or a Saudi sympathising Salafi then you're not going to be keen on Hamas. Also if you're Shia, given how totally Hamas have disassociated themselves from Assad.
In Egypt in particular Morsi actually clamped down on the border with Gaza far more than Mubarak. He also negotiated the truce which is something Egyptian Presidents since Sadat have tended to do. But even within the MB I never got a sense that there was a desire to fight Hamas's fight for them and among the opposition they're also seen (like the MB) as a state within a state and a group that tend to cause problems and disorder.
People may like them in Palestine fighting Israel but that doesn't mean they want them, or their allies in their own country. The comparison that springs to mind is that it's a bit like the IRA and Irish-Americans in the 80s.
I thought this piece was interesting and the parallels with Pakistan are a bit worrying:
QuoteSisi's Islamist Agenda for Egypt
The General's Radical Political Vision
Robert Springborg
July 28, 2013
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foreignaffairs.com%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Fhomepage%2FSisi_411.jpg&hash=e722ac4c4ae2908969682070da5d126d9d25fa26)
Al-Sisi at a press conference in Cairo. (Courtesy Reuters)
Addressing graduates of military academies is a standard responsibility for high-ranking military officers all over the world. But last week, Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the commander of Egypt's armed forces, which recently deposed the country's first freely elected president, went far beyond the conventions of the genre in a speech to graduates of Egypt's Navy and Air Defense academies. Sisi's true audience was the wider Egyptian public, and he presented himself less as a general in the armed forces than as a populist strongman. He urged Egyptians to take to the streets to show their support for the provisional government that he had installed after launching a coup to remove from power President Mohamed Morsi, a longtime leader of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood. "I've never asked you for anything," Sisi declared, before requesting a "mandate" to confront the Muslim Brotherhood, whose supporters have launched protests and sit-ins to denounce the new military-backed regime.
Sisi's speech was only the latest suggestion that he will not be content to simply serve as the leader of Egypt's military. Although he has vowed to lead Egypt through a democratic transition, there are plenty of indications that he is less than enthusiastic about democracy and that he intends to hold on to political power himself. But that's not to say that he envisions a return to the secular authoritarianism of Egypt's recent past. Given the details of Sisi's biography and the content of his only published work, a thesis he wrote in 2006 while studying at the U.S. Army War College in Pennsylvania, it seems possible that he might have something altogether different in mind: a hybrid regime that would combine Islamism with militarism. To judge from the ideas about governance that he put forward in his thesis, Sisi might see himself less as a custodian of Egypt's democratic future than as an Egyptian version of Muhammed Zia ul-Haq, the Pakistani general who seized power in 1977 and set about to "Islamicize" state and society in Pakistan.
Last summer, when Morsi tapped Sisi to replace Minister of Defense Muhammad Tantawi, Morsi clearly believed that he had chosen someone who was willing to subordinate himself to an elected government. Foreign observers also interpreted Sisi's promotion as a signal that the military would finally be professionalized, beginning with a reduction of its role in politics and then, possibly, the economy. Sisi's initial moves as defense minister reinforced this optimism. He immediately removed scores of older officers closely associated with his corrupt and unpopular predecessor. And he implicitly criticized the military's involvement in politics after the ouster of Hosni Mubarak in 2011, warning that such "dangerous" interventions could turn Egypt into Afghanistan or Somalia and would not recur.
The Muslim Brotherhood also had a favorable attitude toward Sisi, and certainly did not see him as a threat. Brotherhood spokesmen praised his dedication to military modernization and noted that, unlike his predecessor, who maintained close ties to Washington, Sisi was a fierce Egyptian nationalist -- "100 percent patriotic," in the words of Gamal Hishmat, the official spokesman for the Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party. In May, when a prominent ultraconservative Salafist named Hazem Abu Ismail criticized Sisi for making "emotional" appeals for popular support for the military, a number of Brothers leapt to the general's defense.
Throughout Sisi's tenure as defense minister, the Brotherhood dismissed his political potential. Obviously, they underestimated him. That is not to say that he had been planning a coup the entire time; there is not enough evidence to determine that. But there is plenty of evidence that Sisi is not nearly as modest as he has always preferred Egyptians to believe. It is significant that he not only remained minister of defense in the new government but also took the post of first deputy prime minister. Following the cabinet's formation, Sisi's spokesperson appeared on television to say that although the general was not running for the presidency, there was nothing to prevent him from so doing if he retired from the military. Sisi also had his spokesman release a 30-minute YouTube video glorifying the general and the military, taking particular care to illustrate the military's provision of goods and services to civilians. Not long thereafter, demonstrators in Cairo and elsewhere were seen carrying large photos of Sisi.
As fears of the general's political ambitions have intensified, so have concerns about the nature of his political views. Since deposing Morsi, Sisi has clearly been trying to give the impression that he is committed to democracy. He has taken pains to ensure that civilian political figures share the limelight with him. Hazem al-Beblawi, who was appointed as the prime minister of the transitional government, claimed in his first television interview after taking office that he had not met Sisi prior to the swearing-in ceremony and that the general had not intervened in any way in his choice of ministers.
But even though he overthrew a government dominated by Islamists, there is reason to suspect that Sisi's true goal might not be the establishment of a more inclusive, secular democracy but, rather, a military-led resurrection and reformation of the Islamist project that the Brotherhood so abysmally mishandled. Indeed, after Morsi became president, he tapped Sisi to become defense minster precisely because there was plenty of evidence that the general was sympathetic to Islamism. He is reputed to be a particularly devout Muslim who frequently inserts Koranic verses into informal conversations, and his wife wears the conservative dress favored by more orthodox Muslims. Those concerned about Sisi's views on women's rights were alarmed by his defense of the military's use of "virginity tests" for female demonstrators detained during the uprising against Mubarak. Human-rights activists argued that the "tests" were amounted to sexual assaults; Sisi countered that they were intended "to protect the girls from rape."
Morsi likely also found much to admire in the thesis that Sisi produced at the U.S. Army War College, which, despite its innocuous title ("Democracy in the Middle East"), reads like a tract produced by the Muslim Brotherhood. In his opening paragraph, Sisi emphasizes the centrality of religion to the politics of the region, arguing that "for democracy to be successful in the Middle East," it must show "respect to the religious nature of the culture" and seek "public support from religious leaders [who] can help build strong support for the establishment of democratic systems." Egyptians and other Arabs will view democracy positively, he wrote, only if it "sustains the religious base versus devaluing religion and creating instability." Secularism, according to Sisi, "is unlikely to be favorably received by the vast majority of Middle Easterners, who are devout followers of the Islamic faith." He condemns governments that "tend toward secular rule," because they "disenfranchise large segments of the population who believe religion should not be excluded from government," and because "they often send religious leaders to prison."
But Sisi's thesis goes beyond simply rejecting the idea of a secular state; it embraces a more radical view of the proper place of religion in an Islamic democracy. He writes: "Democracy cannot be understood in the Middle East without an understanding of the concept of El Kalafa," or the caliphate, which Sisi defines as the 70-year period when Muslims were led by Muhammad and his immediate successors. Re-establishing this kind of leadership "is widely recognized as the goal for any new form of government" in the Middle East, he asserts. The central political mechanisms in such a system, he believes, are al-bi'ah (fealty to a ruler) and shura (a ruler's consultation with his subjects). Apologists for Islamic rule sometimes suggest that these concepts are inherently democratic, but in reality they fall far short of the democratic mark.
Sisi concludes that a tripartite government would be acceptable only if the executive, legislative, and judicial branches are all sufficiently Islamic; otherwise, there must be an independent "religious" branch of government. He acknowledges that it will be a challenge to incorporate Islam into government, but concludes that there is no other choice. (As an afterthought, he adds that "there must be consideration given to non-Islamic beliefs.")
If Sisi's thesis truly reflects his thinking -- and there is no reason to believe otherwise -- it suggests not only that he might want to stay at the helm of the new Egyptian state but that his vision of how to steer Egyptian society differs markedly from those of the secular-nationalist military rulers who led Egypt for decades: Gamal Abdel al-Nasser, Anwar al-Sadat, and Mubarak. The ideas in Sisi's thesis hew closer to those of Zia ul-Haq, who overthrew Pakistan's democratically elected government in 1977 and soon began a campaign of "Islamicization" that included the introduction of some elements of sharia into Pakistani law, along with a state-subsidized boom in religious education. It is worth noting that Sisi has gone out of his way to court the Salafist al-Nour Party, by ensuring that the constitutional declaration issued on July 13 preserved the controversial article stating "the principles of sharia law derived from established Sunni canons" will be Egypt's "main source of legislation." He also tried to undercut support for the leaders of the Brotherhood by appealing directly to their followers, referring to them as "good Egyptians" and "our brothers." These moves may have been intended to inoculate him against the charge that the coup was anti-Islamist -- a critical point, since Islamism still enjoys broad support in many parts of Egyptian society. But it may also reflect a genuine belief in and commitment to Islamism.
If Sisi continues to seek legitimacy for military rule by associating it with Islamism, it could prove to be a disaster for Egypt. At the very least, it would set back the democratic cause immeasurably. It would also reinforce the military's octopus-like hold on the economy, which is already one of the major obstacles to the country's economic development. And it would also pose new dilemmas for the military itself: somehow it would need to reconcile serving the strategic objectives of Islam and those of its American patrons. It's not clear whether that circle could be squared. And the experiment would likely come at the expense of the Egyptian people.
Now that is one wicked ball cap.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 29, 2013, 05:21:32 PM
Now that is one wicked ball cap.
Liberace called, he wants he chair back.
I know Arab strongmen love a gilt throne, but for a press conference? :blink:
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 29, 2013, 05:33:31 PM
I know Arab strongmen love a gilt throne, but for a press conference? :blink:
Gotta set the tenor early.
Looks like the Benny Hinn chair from TBN.
Yeah, based on that article, it seems General Sisi may have quite different intentions than bringing a more open democracy to Egypt. A bit worrying, agreed. It's a bit surprising that he acted to remove the Muslim Brotherhood from power.
Quote from: KRonn on July 30, 2013, 08:45:06 AM
Yeah, based on that article, it seems General Sisi may have quite different intentions than bringing a more open democracy to Egypt. A bit worrying, agreed. It's a bit surprising that he acted to remove the Muslim Brotherhood from power.
as I argued earlier.. egypt was running out of money and food.
Eureka! Sell off the Suez Canal. That should keep them in cheap diesel for a couple more months.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2013, 08:53:17 AM
Eureka! Sell off the Suez Canal. That should keep them in cheap diesel for a couple more months.
They nationalized it originally, so nobody will pay for it. Plus the canal dues make up for about 1/4 of egypts normal exports (before investment and remittances which add a similar amount each). Nobody will pay for it and they can't afford to sell it.
QuoteHe writes: "Democracy cannot be understood in the Middle East without an understanding of the concept of El Kalafa," or the caliphate, which Sisi defines as the 70-year period when Muslims were led by Muhammad and his immediate successors. Re-establishing this kind of leadership "is widely recognized as the goal for any new form of government" in the Middle East, he asserts.
This is the problem with having a quasi-mythological golden age. This is as practical a political platform as an ancient Roman politician claiming he is going to re-establish the sort of leadership of Camillus and Publicola.
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2013, 09:07:21 AM
QuoteHe writes: "Democracy cannot be understood in the Middle East without an understanding of the concept of El Kalafa," or the caliphate, which Sisi defines as the 70-year period when Muslims were led by Muhammad and his immediate successors. Re-establishing this kind of leadership "is widely recognized as the goal for any new form of government" in the Middle East, he asserts.
This is the problem with having a quasi-mythological golden age. This is as practical a political platform as an ancient Roman politician claiming he is going to re-establish the sort of leadership of Camillus and Publicola.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.biography.com%2Fimported%2Fimages%2FBiography%2FImages%2FProfiles%2FJ%2FThomas-Jefferson-9353715-1-402.jpg&hash=fc6b6616500887387b59b2084b0af78b4832f511)
'cause that never works...
Despite signing his name Publius I do not think recreating the virtues of the Roman Republic was what Madison was really trying to do :P
It's worse than I thought, CNN is writing editorials on it:
QuoteHow to rescue the Arab Spring
By Frida Ghitis, Special to CNN
updated 9:49 AM EDT, Tue July 30, 2013
Editor's note: Frida Ghitis is a world affairs columnist for The Miami Herald and World Politics Review. A former CNN producer and correspondent, she is the author of "The End of Revolution: A Changing World in the Age of Live Television." Follow her on Twitter: @FridaGColumns.
(CNN) -- Revolutions devour their young. That lesson became well-known after the French Revolution, and it has proven itself true many times since then.
Now the Arab Spring -- whose very name summed up the idealistic, democratic expectations of the activists that launched it and the optimistic reception their movement engendered around the world -- looks like it may well join the long list of popular uprisings that failed disastrously to meet those aspirations.
It has turned out that mass movements would not swiftly sweep away entrenched dictators and replace them with pluralistic democratic rule.
In Tunisia, where a street vendor set himself on fire in December 2010, igniting the region, someone has been assassinating liberal politicians, raising tensions between the Islamist-dominated government and an increasingly restless opposition.
In Syria, what started as a peaceful uprising against the rule of President Bashar al-Assad has turned to civil war. More than 100,000 Syrians are dead. Millions more have fled, further destabilizing a fragile region. Al-Assad, with the support of Iran, Hezbollah and Russia, has stopped the opposition's momentum. The democratic movement has been invaded by radical Islamists, including al Qaeda loyalists. The country is falling apart and could well end up as a failed state, run by warlords and split along sectarian lines.
There are serious troubles also in Libya, and few if any signs of democratic progress anywhere else, not in Bahrain, Jordan or Saudi Arabia.
Is the Arab Spring over? Is there any hope for the people of the Arab Middle East to enjoy true democracy, equality, respect for human rights, freedom of the press and of religion?
Egyptians fear more bloodshed to come
All eyes are now on Egypt, the Arab world's most important country, a state whose political example has proven a regional trendsetter over many decades. As in the other struggling Arab Spring nations, democracy here has also found toxic soil. But the cause is not hopeless. Despite the setbacks for revolution, something has changed in the region, and it is in Egypt where the movement will live or die.
It was in Cairo's Tahrir Square where liberal groups launched their movement for democracy, only to see their vision hijacked by the Muslim Brotherhood. And it is in Egypt where last month they made a push to save their revolution from Islamists, only to be outplayed yet again, this time by the military and its leader, Gen. Abdel Fattah al-Sisi.
The highly disciplined Brotherhood won the first wave of democratic elections, but its intentions differed sharply from those of the Tahrir protesters. President Mohamed Morsy, Egypt's first freely elected president, set on a course to give his Muslim Brotherhood steadily expanding control of the country. The Brotherhood repeatedly broke promises and started to create a country dominated by its loyalists, firing critical newspaper editors, blocking opposing views from the writing of the new constitution, naming Brotherhood members as provincial governors, allowing laws and practices that were disastrous, even deadly, for Christians, Shiites and women. Making matters much worse, the economy started spiraling down, creating enormous hardships for the Egyptian people.
Then the Tamarod (rebellion) movement gathered millions of signatures calling for the president's resignation and new elections. On June 30, millions of Egyptians took to the streets. Within hours, the military put an end to the Muslim Brotherhood rule. Morsy has been held in an disclosed location since then, but the European Union's top diplomat, Catherine Ashton, met with him for two hours Monday.
Egyptians by the millions are exhilarated by the end of the Muslim Brotherhood experiment, intoxicated with gratitude to the military, grateful for removing the president. Al-Sisi's profile is rising. He's clearly in command and exploiting the popular adulation.
But is this what the Arab Spring was supposed to do, replace an unelected dictator with a general and his hand-picked prime minister?
In a highly suspicious move, al-Sisi called for a mass demonstration in support of the military on Friday, summoning his backers to the streets, even as thousands of Morsy supporters continued a sit-in outside a mosque. On the day of the protest, as if to provoke the Islamists to confrontation, Morsy was charged with murder and espionage.
With the strong show of popular support, security forces took on the Islamists. In the clashes, which have been replicated in other cities, scores of Brotherhood supporters have been killed.
Liberal Egyptians are getting worried.
Al-Sisi's own words should be cause for concern. He has defended the military's outrageous "virginity tests" on female activists as a way to "protect the girls from rape." The military has promised a return to democracy next year, but al-Sisi has written about the need to introduce another version of Islamist rule to Egypt. Authorities are reviving Mubarak-era institutions of repression amid an atmosphere of swelling nationalism and adulation for the military.
This is a steep, seemingly impossible, challenge for liberals. The military saved them, but it could easily bury them. What they have in their favor is that the Arab Spring introduced the concept of democratic legitimacy into Egypt. A government that strays too visibly, for too long, will ultimately face the wrath of the people.
What activists should do, and the world should help them do, is stress the fundamental values of liberal democracy and publicly demand that the military affirm its own acceptance of those values -- which the Brotherhood was criticized for violating -- including freedom of thought, freedom of the press and equal rights under the law for all.
The killing of Muslim Brotherhood supporters is a shameful violation of those principles.
Egypt needs to develop democratic institutions, political tolerance, real political parties and politically educated citizens. It's a tall order. But it's the only way to keep the revolution from devouring the ideals on which it was launched.
Problem solved :)
Yo, Egypt! Get some democratic institutions.
:lol: It really is that simple.
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2013, 09:07:21 AM
QuoteHe writes: "Democracy cannot be understood in the Middle East without an understanding of the concept of El Kalafa," or the caliphate, which Sisi defines as the 70-year period when Muslims were led by Muhammad and his immediate successors. Re-establishing this kind of leadership "is widely recognized as the goal for any new form of government" in the Middle East, he asserts.
This is the problem with having a quasi-mythological golden age. This is as practical a political platform as an ancient Roman politician claiming he is going to re-establish the sort of leadership of Camillus and Publicola.
People will be saying this about the USA in 100 years time, but it'll be true. :P
QuoteEgypt needs to develop democratic institutions, political tolerance, real political parties and politically educated citizens.
That's totally covered in awesome sauce.
Quote from: mongers on July 30, 2013, 04:25:11 PM
People will be saying this about the USA in 100 years time, but it'll be true. :P
So you think it IS a constructive idea to restore the leadership of the original caliphate? :unsure:
I guess I do not get your problem here. Yeah we have nutters in the US who do this...yeah so? I did not claim otherwise.
if the middle east restores the kalifate can we bomb them back to the stone age?
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 01, 2013, 01:04:45 PM
if the middle east restores the kalifate can we bomb them back to the stone age?
I guess, but why?
Quote from: Valmy on July 31, 2013, 08:27:21 AM
Quote from: mongers on July 30, 2013, 04:25:11 PM
People will be saying this about the USA in 100 years time, but it'll be true. :P
So you think it IS a constructive idea to restore the leadership of the original caliphate? :unsure:
I guess I do not get your problem here. Yeah we have nutters in the US who do this...yeah so? I did not claim otherwise.
Hold on to your hat here folks.
Woosh ......................................................................
Quote from: DGuller on July 30, 2013, 03:05:25 PM
Yo, Egypt! Get some democratic institutions.
Yeah, just because they have elections doesn't mean they're democratic. Like with Iran, Hussein in Iraq, Hamas, and others of that type. Elections aren't the only defining factor of democracy. If the institutions aren't there or if those elected don't abide by the democratic institutions, don't believe in them or will not implement them, then it doesn't matter how many elections there are - it's still some sort of autocratic government.
Quote from: mongers on August 01, 2013, 01:53:25 PM
Hold on to your hat here folks.
Woosh ......................................................................
Yes I didn't get it and admitted it. Congrats for being opaque and unclear?
Quote
Tunisia suspends constitution body
Assembly speaker announces body's suspension amid hundreds of protesters attend a mass rally called by the opposition.
Tunisia's embattled Constituent Assembly has been suspended indefinitely, ahead of planned mass protests calling for the body to be dissolved, its speaker said.
The move came on Tuesday as hundreds of demonstrators started to gather outside the assembly building for a mass rally called by the opposition aimed at pressuring the government to step down.
The head of the Constituent Assembly and Secretary General of the centre-left party Ettakatol Mustafa Ben Jaffar announced to the nation on Tuesday that the constituent assembly or parliament would be suspended.
"I assume my responsibility as president of the ANC [assembly] and suspend its work until the start of a dialogue, in the service of Tunisia," he said on state television.
He was referring to a crisis sparked by the assassination of an opposition figure that has already prompted many opposition members to boycott the assembly's sessions.
The assembly was only weeks away from finishing a draft constitution and electoral law that would move the country closer to new elections.
The country's secular opposition is trying to oust the Islamist Ennahda-led government and dissolve the transitional Assembly.
Protests have been held daily since the killing of leftist politician and assembly member Mohamed Brahmi on July 25, nearly six months after another leftist figure was gunned down.
More than 70 members of the assembly withdrew two weeks ago in protest at the two killings and organised a sit-in outside the assembly headquarters.
The Constituent Assembly met on Tuesday morning despite the absence of protesting lawmakers.
Tunisians are facing the worst political crisis since the toppling of autocratic ruler Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali in 2011, in a revolt that sparked uprisings across the Arab world.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't sound like this would move them closer to elections. :unsure:
Algeria 2.0, just great :bleeding:
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/08/19935461-analysis-egypt-has-all-the-ingredients-for-an-insurgency?lite
QuoteEgypt has all the ingredients for an insurgency
Amr Abdallah Dalsh / Reuters
Members of the Muslim Brotherhood and supporters of deposed Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi shout slogans during a protest at Rabaa Adawiya Square, where they are camping, in Nasr City, east of Cairo, on Aug. 7.
By Richard Engel, Correspondent, NBC News
News analysis
CAIRO -- A troubling thing happened at the Cairo airport early one morning this week.
Two Egyptian men arrived on a predawn flight from Istanbul. As they were walking through the arrival hall, airport officials say, one of the men threw something in a wastepaper basket before reaching customs control. The action seemed suspicious.
Their passports indicated the men had started their journey in Chechnya, a center of Islamic unrest in the Caucasus. Customs officials inspected their luggage and discovered they were carrying military uniforms, a black "al Qaeda flag," and computer memory cards containing what seemed to be radical Islamist propaganda. Fishing through the trash, officials also found what they described as counterfeit passports.
The men were taken into custody. Egyptian officials said they believe the men were Islamic extremists traveling to Egypt to wage jihad.
It's a very bad sign of what may be coming – a time of jihad and death on the Nile.
Middle East analysts and U.S. intelligence officers have told me they worry an insurgency may break out in Egypt. At a minimum, such an uprising could cause sporadic violence against the government, the Egyptian military and foreign visitors. Far worse, it could cause serious instability in this 5,000-year-old civilization.
After the military ousted the Muslim Brotherhood's elected President Mohammed Morsi earlier this summer, Egypt has joined Syria as the cause du jour for Islamic crusaders. Al Qaeda's chief Ayman al-Zawahiri, who U.S. officials say ordered his Yemeni captain to carry out a big terrorist attack somewhere in the vast West, has released an audio message urging Islamists to take their struggle to Egypt. Zawahiri, himself an Egyptian, has accused Washington of orchestrating the coup, saying it was paid for with money from Persian Gulf states and carried out with the complicity of Egyptian Christians.
At daily Muslim Brotherhood rallies in Cairo and Alexandria, protesters threaten jihad against the mostly-secular Egyptian military.
The Egyptian military has said it will no longer tolerate the demonstrations, and may move to clear them out by force. The move could be what tips the kettle of Egypt's brewing insurgency.
This week Sen. John McCain told NBC News he worries Egypt could follow the path of Algeria. In the 1990s, Islamists in Algeria won elections like the Brotherhood did in Egypt. The Algerian military refused to allow the Islamists to take power. A war erupted, killing between 100,000 to 200,000 people, depending on which estimates are to be believed.
Egyptians should hope McCain is wrong, but there are undeniable parallels. An Algeria redux in Egypt is the worst possibility, the nightmare of a total breakdown of order, death on the Nile every night.
Intelligence officials and analysts say that horror show is possible, but expect a somewhat less dire, but still violent and persistent armed insurgency that could last years.
Insurgencies are easy to make and hard to stop. Only a few ingredients need to combine to create an insurgency; like oxygen and fire, they're very common and mix all too often. The recipe is simply: a legitimate grievance against a state, a state that refuses to compromise, a quorum of angry people, and access to weapons.
Egypt appears to have them all.
Morsi was legitimately elected in 2012. His government's performance was, by almost any standard, disastrous and didn't respect the rights of other political groups. He is accused of colluding with Hamas, and of allowing the Sinai Peninsula, where the Bible says Moses handed down laws to his people, to become a lawless safe haven for wild-eyed jihadis and gun runners.
Morsi was, of course, overthrown in what the United States doesn't want to call a coup. He may have deserved it. Many Egyptians certainly think so. But does the Muslim Brotherhood have a cause to rally around? Yes. The first ingredient is there.
Is the military willing to compromise? It and the government it backs say they want to talk and find a solution. The government has reached out to religious leaders hoping to use them as intermediaries. But the military isn't willing to step down. Is the state refusing compromise? Yes, but only from the Brotherhood's perspective.
Insurgencies also need insurgents. Does the Brotherhood have the numbers? The group claims that the majority of Egyptians support them, since they won the election by a majority. The Brotherhood's opponents say the group only won the election because other parties weren't organized and say the Brotherhood alienated many Egyptians during its year in power. But even the Brotherhood's toughest critics say the group has a base of support that numbers at least in the millions.
For an insurgency, you don't need millions. Al Qaeda in Yemen, which now has powerful nations shutting its embassies around the globe, only has a core of about 1,000 members. Does Egypt have the numbers for an insurgency? Yes, it does, and then some.
The last ingredient is weapons.
There was an insurgency under President Hosni Mubarak in the 1990s. Egyptian police and soldiers fought weekly battles with Islamists in the sugarcane fields and thick reeds along the Nile in rural southern villages like Minya, Sohag, Enna and Assiout. Whenever I traveled to Assiout in the 1990s, I had to inform the Egyptian government of my movements ahead of time. On one trip, I was given a full military escort, including two tracked armored personnel carriers with machine guns. In 1997, Islamic extremists killed nine German tourists in front of the painfully rich Egyptian Museum in Tahrir Square. Two gunmen boarded the bus, started shooting tourists and set the vehicle on fire with Molotov cocktails. I lived down the street at the time and climbed on the smoking bus to see the bodies, still seated, melted to the nylon and plastic foam seats. Two months later, Islamic militants butchered 58 foreign tourists with assault rifles in front of the temple of the Pharaoh Queen Hatshepsut in Luxor, better known to the ancients as Thebes.
There weren't many weapons in Egypt in the 1990s. Police controls on guns were very strict back them. That is no longer the case in Egypt today. When Libya collapsed after NATO airpower guided Mad Max rebels into Tripoli, Muammar Gadhafi's weapons were smuggled out like rats off a sinking ship. The weapons went to Mali, Niger, Syria, Egypt and everywhere. Do Egyptians have access to enough arms for an insurgency? Oh, yes.
So what can be done? The easy answer would be to tell the military and the Brotherhood to work out a deal, to compromise and play nice together. But that seems unlikely. The military and the Brotherhood both want power and both feel they deserve to have it; both sides also have passionate supporters encouraging them to hold their ground.
Analysts may be right to worry that death on the Nile may be coming.
Maybe, I think it looks more like a reboot of the old regime.
In the past week there's been international mediation between the coup regime and the Brotherhood who are peacefully sitting in at various places in Egypt. Both sides say they've failed.
What worries me more is the tone from the regime. Nasser's granddaughter's issued a statement calling on Sissi to 'seize his destiny', while an alleged picture of Sissi as a boy saluting Nasser is doing the rounds. Meanwhile the state media have alleged that the Muslim Brotherhood are hiding chemical weapons in their Rabaa sit in. Articles in the state media have also referred to El Baradei as 'the enemy' and 'a danger to the state and the nation'. He's currently the vice-President.
The new regime have also announced how they'll re-write Egypt's constitution:
QuoteEach of the groups listed will select its own members, while the president will select public figures.
The members will include three from Al-Azhar, including one young person; three from the Coptic Orthodox Church; four youth figures, ages not exceeding 40, including a member of the 'Rebel' (Tamarod) Campaign, at least one representative from youth activists of the 25 January and a professional.
The four main political currents will be represented – Islamist and liberal parties will each choose two representatives; leftist and nationalist parties will each choose one representative.
The culture sector will choose its representatives. One will be nominated by the Egyptian Writers' Union, another by the Federation of Artistic Trade Unions, one by the Fine and Applied Arts Sector and one by the Supreme Council of Culture.
Labour will be represented by two members, nominated by different workers unions and associations. Professional syndicates will get four representatives – one selected by the Doctors Syndicate, one by the Engineers Syndicate, one by the Lawyers Syndicate and one by the Journalists Syndicate.
Peasants will get two representatives, nominated by peasant unions and associations.
Other interest associations will also get to choose representatives; the Federation of Chambers of Tourism, the Federation of Chamber of Industry and the Federation of Chambers of Trade will each nominate one person. Egypt's Student Union will nominate one representative, and so will the General Union for Non-Governmental Organisations.
National councils – state run bodies – will also select candidates. The National Council for Women, the National Council for Childhood and Motherhood and the National Council for Human Rights, the Supreme Council of Universities, and the National Council for Challenging Disability will each nominate one person.
The armed forces and the police will each select one representative.
The cabinet will nominate 10 public figures reflecting Egypt's diversity, including representatives from Delta, Upper Egypt, Sinai, Marsa Matrouh, and Egypt's Nubian minority.
Uh-oh:
Quote
Deadly air strike reported in Sinai
At least five suspected armed fighters killed in what some sources claimed to be an Israeli drone strike.
An air strike in Egypt's northern Sinai peninsula has killed five suspected armed fighters, news agencies have reported quoting Egyptian sources and witnesses.
It said the source of the strike was not clear, with some sources claiming it to be an Israeli drone strike while others credited the Egyptian military.
Residents heard a large explosion on Friday in the region near the border with Israel.
Egypt's army said two explosions were heard at about 4:15 pm (1415 GMT) in the Al-Ojra area, 3km from the border with Israel.
"The armed forces are combing the area of the explosions to find out the cause," army spokesman Colonel Ahmed Aly said in a statement. Witnesses said Egyptian military helicopters hovered above the site after
the blasts.
Egypt's military and security forces are engaged in long battle against armed fighters in the largely lawless peninsula. On Thursday, Israel briefly closed an airport near the border after Egyptian officials warned of possible rocket attacks.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 09, 2013, 12:59:25 AM
Analysts may be right to worry that death on the Nile may be coming.
Their little grey cells are concerned. :bowler:
Top story this morning from around the world:
Al Jazeera: Security crackdown kills scores in Egypt
BBC: Bloodshed as Cairo camps cleared
Le Monde: Egypte : plus d'une centaine de morts au Caire après la dispersion des pro-Morsi
CNN: Friend: Hannah Anderson discusses kidnapping on social media
^_^
Just Arabs shooting eachother, something that happens every day.
Quote from: Savonarola on August 14, 2013, 08:00:42 AM
Top story this morning from around the world:
Al Jazeera: Security crackdown kills scores in Egypt
BBC: Bloodshed as Cairo camps cleared
Le Monde: Egypte : plus d'une centaine de morts au Caire après la dispersion des pro-Morsi
CNN: Friend: Hannah Anderson discusses kidnapping on social media
and none of those mentioning that the morsibarians were burning churches at the time.
Don't know what Hannan Anderson was burning though
Quote from: Savonarola on August 09, 2013, 01:21:55 PM
Uh-oh:
Quote
Deadly air strike reported in Sinai
At least five suspected armed fighters killed in what some sources claimed to be an Israeli drone strike.
An air strike in Egypt's northern Sinai peninsula has killed five suspected armed fighters, news agencies have reported quoting Egyptian sources and witnesses.
It said the source of the strike was not clear, with some sources claiming it to be an Israeli drone strike while others credited the Egyptian military.
Residents heard a large explosion on Friday in the region near the border with Israel.
Egypt's army said two explosions were heard at about 4:15 pm (1415 GMT) in the Al-Ojra area, 3km from the border with Israel.
"The armed forces are combing the area of the explosions to find out the cause," army spokesman Colonel Ahmed Aly said in a statement. Witnesses said Egyptian military helicopters hovered above the site after
the blasts.
Egypt's military and security forces are engaged in long battle against armed fighters in the largely lawless peninsula. On Thursday, Israel briefly closed an airport near the border after Egyptian officials warned of possible rocket attacks.
The Sinai has a very long history that people who misbehave are subject to smiting by bolts from the sky.
Holy Shit.
CNN is saying 300 Brothers and 43 cops killed.
The night Chicago died,
da da da da da da da da.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 14, 2013, 05:47:03 PM
CNN is saying 300 Brothers and 43 cops killed.
The night Chicago died,
da da da da da da da da.
Government numbers are 278 protesters, but the Muslim Brotherhood insists the actual toll is much higher. Also 21 police stations and 7 churches were attacked (according to the governments figures.)
Seven Copt Churches, attacked by Muslim Brotherhood supports.
The Wall Street Journal's main article on the clashes today had this quote from an Egyptian man on the street that 100% sums up my feelings on Egypt:
Quote"Europeans understand democracy but Muslims don't," said Mahmoud Sayed, a 35-year-old protester. "I'm not with the Muslim brotherhood and I'm not with the government. But democracy here doesn't work and I'm here to support the innocent people being killed."
It's simple fact. Egyptians on either the secularist or Islamist side simply aren't fit for democracy. The secularists are too bound up with the military and they seem inclined to just form Mubarak style regimes, the Islamists seem to follow the mold of "win one election, rewrite the rules so we never lose another one."
In response to the killings, Obama has cancelled one of the biannual US-Egyptian joint military exercises. :o
Quote from: Kleves on August 15, 2013, 09:34:11 AM
In response to the killings, Obama has cancelled one of the biannual US-Egyptian joint military exercises. :o
This situation really is a nightmare for our foreign policy. I cannot say it is not a bit entertaining to see us so flumoxed.
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2013, 09:35:48 AM
This situation really is a nightmare for our foreign policy. I cannot say it is not a bit entertaining to see us so flumoxed.
Well, Obama did outline a way forward for the Egyptians: they just need to stop killing each other; put together a functioning democracy that respects the rights of everyone, including religious minorities and women; and create a strong economy. So, you know, now they know what to do.
I thought Kerry's statement condemning the government's action was very one-sided.
Quote from: Kleves on August 15, 2013, 09:38:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2013, 09:35:48 AM
This situation really is a nightmare for our foreign policy. I cannot say it is not a bit entertaining to see us so flumoxed.
Well, Obama did outline a way forward for the Egyptians: they just need to stop killing each other; put together a functioning democracy that respects the rights of everyone, including religious minorities and women; and create a strong economy. So, you know, now they know what to do.
They will get right on that I am sure!
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on August 14, 2013, 06:10:19 PM
It's simple fact. Egyptians on either the secularist or Islamist side simply aren't fit for democracy.
I think that is too harsh a judgment. There are securlarists who are ready for democracy but after decades of Nasserism they have no institutional or organizational capacity to make it work, and are too weak to compete against the deep structures of the Brotherhood and Mubarakites.
Perhaps a bigger problem is that the mass of the people probably don't really care and will accept any governing structure that is reasonably competent, not extremely corrupt, and doesn't bother them too much.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 15, 2013, 09:50:19 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on August 14, 2013, 06:10:19 PM
It's simple fact. Egyptians on either the secularist or Islamist side simply aren't fit for democracy.
I think that is too harsh a judgment. There are securlarists who are ready for democracy but after decades of Nasserism they have no institutional or organizational capacity to make it work, and are too weak to compete against the deep structures of the Brotherhood and Mubarakites.
Perhaps a bigger problem is that the mass of the people probably don't really care and will accept any governing structure that is reasonably competent, not extremely corrupt, and doesn't bother them too much.
That means they're not fit for democracy, as OvB said. That whole side of the planet full of monkey people is a waste of effort when it comes to democracy.
Isn't there a son or nephew of Hosni lying around we can throw a uniform with massive epaulettes and a Frisbee hat on, and just do it old-style? Like when it used to work?
Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2013, 09:35:48 AM
This situation really is a nightmare for our foreign policy. I cannot say it is not a bit entertaining to see us so flumoxed.
It is a great opportunity to disengage.
US policy in that area is expensive, just makes people hate us, and (arguably) doesn't have any positive effect.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 15, 2013, 12:19:22 PM
It is a great opportunity to disengage.
And stop the defense industry subsidies, which is essentially what our aid to Egypt is? I don't think so.
The official body count's 700 from clearing the MB (peaceful) protest. The General in charge of the operation said 'they are rats and we will hunt them down'.
The government's appointed generals as governors to, I think, all states and declared a state of emergency and a curfew.
El Baradei's resigned. The Egyptian Social Democrat Party has joined in the trend of calling the MB terrorists.
Their visit was panned but I agree with McCain and Graham, and it looks like the Egyptian government can do anything without a threat to America aid, provided they stick to Camp David.
I was going to say this looks like 1954 but what's happened is way beyond anything Nasser ever did. There are now clashes due to massive protests after Friday prayers.
1954? Try making a right turn, and go to 1979.
As ever Goldberg's worth reading, but I also agree with him here:
QuoteWhat Obama Misunderstands About Egypt
By Jeffrey Goldberg Aug 15, 2013 7:10 PM GMT
This morning, President Barack Obama condemned the Egyptian military's slaughter of Muslim Brotherhood members and sympathizers, and canceled joint military exercises scheduled for next month. He said that the violence should stop and that "a process of national reconciliation should begin."
What the White House fails to understand is that the Egyptian military has very different ideas about what "reconciliation" should look like. Its goal is to destroy the Muslim Brotherhood, its traditional adversary, by killing as many Brothers as possible and by jailing or otherwise hounding the others. As for the surprise registered in the White House that Egypt's military rulers didn't listen to repeated American pleas for reconciliation and compromise: How hard is it to believe that Middle Eastern potentates promised one thing to the U.S., and then did something else entirely?
The generals in Cairo have made cold calculations. One of them is that brutality pays dividends. Yes, there may be short-term consequences to the brutal crackdown: There's still a decent chance that the U.S. will suspend aid to the Egyptian military. But the generals understood that a suspension of aid might be possible in the aftermath of the sort of crackdown we're seeing now. Which means that they have come to think that wiping out the Brotherhood is worth the risk. (They also know that there are plenty of wealthy sheiks in the Persian Gulf who viscerally oppose the Brotherhood and who would be happy to supplement Egypt's defense budget.)
It's important to note that the Egyptian military isn't yet all in -- for an example of an all-in, maximum-violence Middle East eradication campaign, please see Syria. But I don't much doubt that the bloody crackdown on the Brotherhood will continue, despite the heartfelt pleas from the White House and the near daily phone calls from Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel. And one reason is Syria: Egyptian generals can't help but notice that the world has stood idly by as Bashar al-Assad has presided over the deaths of some 100,000 Syrian citizens. In the Middle East, you can, in fact, get away with murder.
The Egyptian military will ultimately fail in its campaign to uproot the Brotherhood, because the group is quite popular in many sectors of Egyptian society and its members are expert at underground living. And the Egyptian military has given the Brotherhood something it seeks: mass martyrdom, which is the most potent motivational tool a theocratic movement has in its arsenal. Egypt is falling into ruin because the Brotherhood is anti-democratic, revanchist, anti-Christian and power-mad, and because the Egyptian military couldn't conceive of a way to marginalize it without resorting to mass violence.
This leaves the U.S. in the difficult position of having no one to support. There is, at this point, no good reason to continue funding the Egyptian armed forces. The aid obviously hasn't provided the White House with sufficient leverage, and it makes the U.S. complicit in what just happened and what will undoubtedly continue to happen. One argument for continued aid is that it encourages the military to maintain Egypt's peace treaty with Israel. But the military will do so whether or not the U.S. provides money and weapons, because it has decided that Islamist extremism, and not Israel, is Egypt's main enemy. And it will be too busy persecuting Egyptians.
I also think Marc Lynch has a point here:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/14/enough_is_enough_egypt_cairo_violence_obama_administration
Atleast he got this part right : because it has decided that Islamist extremism, and not Israel, is Egypt's main enemy.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2013, 09:57:51 AM
Isn't there a son or nephew of Hosni lying around we can throw a uniform with massive epaulettes and a Frisbee hat on, and just do it old-style? Like when it used to work?
:lol:
Someone should remake Hidden Agenda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Agenda_%28computer_game%29)with a modern Middle East country instead of a 1980s South American one.
The year 2013 must be one of the best years for Uncle Vlad. He must be going "I told you so" every time he turns on the news. Suddenly his policy of supporting indiscriminate slaughter of Islamist protesters doesn't seem so repulsive.
Quote from: DGuller on August 17, 2013, 05:05:24 AM
The year 2013 must be one of the best years for Uncle Vlad. He must be going "I told you so" every time he turns on the news. Suddenly his policy of supporting indiscriminate slaughter of Islamist protesters doesn't seem so repulsive.
I suppose that's one Eastern European opinion. :angry:
Quote from: derspiess on August 16, 2013, 08:54:15 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 15, 2013, 09:57:51 AM
Isn't there a son or nephew of Hosni lying around we can throw a uniform with massive epaulettes and a Frisbee hat on, and just do it old-style? Like when it used to work?
:lol:
Life was so much simpler back then. :(
Quote from: DGuller on August 17, 2013, 05:05:24 AM
The year 2013 must be one of the best years for Uncle Vlad. He must be going "I told you so" every time he turns on the news. Suddenly his policy of supporting indiscriminate slaughter of Islamist protesters doesn't seem so repulsive.
What? :blink: This is the first thing I've read where the last week makes someone more supportive of the military.
The regime apparently now want to dissolve the MB, who'll survive. And the economic fallout of the coup is becoming huge, most large global firms are stopping operations in Egypt.
Anyway here's Nick Cohen:
QuoteEgypt: we may despise the Muslim Brotherhood, but a coup is a coup
Europe and the US need to accept that the Muslim Brotherhood may be foul, but it did not abolish democracy
Nick Cohen
The Observer, Saturday 17 August 2013 22.04 BST
When a state massacres 600 demonstrators, it is not just its own citizens it murders. It also kills the possibility of compromise. The perpetrators mean you to understand that there can be no going back. When they kill, they are well aware that they are shedding too much blood for normal politics to kick in and allow differences to be patched up and deals made.
The killers have the swagger of gangsters. "We know," they seem to say, "that we are breaking all the basic standards of civilised behaviour. We know people will hate us until the day we die for what we have done today. But do you know what? We don't care."
The rest of the world may not care either about the revolutionary, or counter-revolutionary, terror in Egypt – and for reasons I will get to later our inability to agree on what to call it speaks volumes. Everyone from politicians to concerned citizens says they care, of course. But do they in their hearts? I confess that although I deplore the murder of protesters and the suspension of democracy, I cannot feel any gut identification with reactionary men and women in the Muslim Brotherhood. It is not as if the Burmese military had arrested Aung San Suu Kyi, rounded up the leaders of the National League for Democracy and restored the junta. Then I would know how I felt and how to respond – as, I suspect, would hundreds of millions around the world. But when the same thing happens in Egypt, I understand why it is wrong in theory but cannot feel true anger in practice.
We got used to revolutions that got good people – to use babyish language – out of jail: Mandela, Havel, Suu Kyi. They have happened everywhere, except in the Middle East, where the choice is between secular, or occasionally secular, authoritarians and Islamists – between "fascists with uniforms and fascists with Korans" as the Egyptian feminist Mona Eltahawy put it, with only a touch of hyperbole. That choice is no choice at all.
Even the pro-Islamist elements in the European left, which have shamed radical politics for a decade, are quiet now. The streets of London, Paris and Berlin are not clogged with demonstrators calling for the democratic process to be followed and the will of the Egyptian people (albeit by a tiny majority) respected.
When it matters, when there is the faintest of possibilities that international outrage might make a difference, they shrug and stay at home like everyone else. Who can blame them? What decent person can feel any affinity with an obscurantist and sectarian movement? Before its removal from power the Brotherhood showed its mentality by denouncing a UN initiative to end violence against women. As the liberal media forgets to cover these stories, let me make up for their sins of omission and point out that the Ikhwan (Brotherhood), described the UN's prohibitions against marital rape, and its calls for women's freedom to travel, work and use contraception without their husband's permission, as "destructive tools meant to undermine the family as an important institution ... subvert the entire society, and drag it to pre-Islamic ignorance".
If you entertain the racist belief, held by so many faux-liberals, that it is "culturally imperialist" to worry about the rights of brown-skinned women, look at how the Brotherhood forced through a constitution that failed to mention the rights of the Christian minority (as well as those of women) and offered only feeble protections for freedom of expression. Determined to remove legal restraints on his power, the now ex-president Mohamed Morsi then put himself beyond judicial restraint. His supporters said that the benches of the Egyptian judiciary were filled with the Brotherhood's opponents, and there was a little truth in that. But there is a little truth in the Tory charge that the ranks of the English judiciary are filled with establishment liberals with an excessive concern for human rights. If David Cameron were to place his government beyond the rule of law, however, you would have good reason to be frightened for British liberty. You might even think the British right was staging a coup d'etat of its own.
Everyone should be able to grasp why so many Egyptians said the Brotherhood's idea of democracy was "one person, one vote, once" and why they told doubters: "Hitler was elected too." I and probably you would have protested in Tahrir Square against Morsi if we'd been Egyptian. We might have joined the millions in the inspiring Tamarod movement. We certainly would have felt the Egyptian revolution had been betrayed. To have all that hope for a better future, and then see the crabbed and ignorant men of the Brotherhood take over.
But, legitimate grievances duly noted, the Brotherhood is still not the Nazi party. It may be a foul religious right movement, but it did not abolish democracy or drive the opposition underground. And to rely on the military to remove it is naive in the extreme. The Egyptian army has suppressed dissent since 1952. To add robbery to murder, it has built a military-industrial complex that keeps Egyptians poor by preventing new businesses competing with the elite monopolies it controls.
Ziad El-Alemi, a leader of the Egyptian Social Democrats, believed after the coup that somehow Egyptian progressives could rely on the army to keep the Brotherhood down and at the same time hold supporters of the Mubarak security apparatus to account for their many crimes. So convinced were the social democrats that they could have it all ways, they took seats in the transitional government. I wonder if after last week's display of brute force, they still believe they or anyone else can check the military.
However hard it is to say, European Union governments and the US have to live by their principles and call a coup a coup. Aid and normal diplomatic relations must depend on the release of political prisoners, the restoration of civil liberties and a return to democracy – even if that means a return of Morsi to power until the next election. Western liberals ought to stir themselves as well. I have written before of their failure to listen to liberals in the Arab world – or even acknowledge their existence. But the traffic should go both ways.
It is not disrespectful or condescending to tell them that the notion of a good society built on the back of a government dominated by the military is always improbable. In the case of the Egyptian military it is not improbable, just impossible.
Edit: Incidentally El Baradei's being condemned as a traitor by the Egyptian liberal parties.
"but it did not abolish democracy or drive the opposition underground"
Only because it was stopped before it cneould do these things. Things might have gone better if someone had done that in 1933 in Germany
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 11:53:56 AM
"but it did not abolish democracy or drive the opposition underground"
Only because it was stopped before it cneould do these things. Things might have gone better if someone had done that in 1933 in Germany
Someone DID do that in 1933 Germany. :P
Is Egypt going to spiral out of control?
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 12:03:49 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 11:53:56 AM
"but it did not abolish democracy or drive the opposition underground"
Only because it was stopped before it cneould do these things. Things might have gone better if someone had done that in 1933 in Germany
Someone DID do that in 1933 Germany. :P
no one stopped Hitler when they could. It would also have been a coup, but sometimes that is (likely to be) better than the alternative. Almost anything that didn't involve Hitler would have been better than something involving Hitler in power. In Egypt a similar scenario seemed to be unfolding. Luckily Morsi wasn't as fast or decisive as the moustache-wearing corporal. What will come may or may not be worse than what has been averted (and from a group that gets terrorists out of prison to give them governships nothing good can come imho)
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 11:53:56 AM
"but it did not abolish democracy or drive the opposition underground"
Only because it was stopped before it cneould do these things. Things might have gone better if someone had done that in 1933 in Germany
Well Cohen's no MB apologist.
But what's the basis for that? They were in power for about eighteen months. We can look at their record, and had they abolished democracy by the next election they could have, as we've seen, been removed.
The Nazi comparison is interesting precisely because it shows how speedily and ruthlessly totalitarian states act in establishing and consolidating their power. Compare MB Egypt eighteen months in with Germany in June 1934. As I say this is the second wing of conspiracy thinking by the Egyptian elite and anti-MBers. The facts suggest they either weren't despots in waiting or they were too incompetent to pull it off. To my mind neither justifies a coup.
Similarly it would be nice if Western liberals and human rights activists showed an ounce of the outrage over this far more brutal repression that they did over Turkey.
Meanwhile around 40 brothers have died in prison during an 'attempted escape'. Sisi's also spoke again. The overwhelming response seems a mixture of fear and admiration for his charisma and lots more Nasser comparisons.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 01:01:19 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 12:03:49 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 11:53:56 AM
"but it did not abolish democracy or drive the opposition underground"
Only because it was stopped before it cneould do these things. Things might have gone better if someone had done that in 1933 in Germany
Someone DID do that in 1933 Germany. :P
no one stopped Hitler when they could. It would also have been a coup, but sometimes that is (likely to be) better than the alternative. Almost anything that didn't involve Hitler would have been better than something involving Hitler in power. In Egypt a similar scenario seemed to be unfolding. Luckily Morsi wasn't as fast or decisive as the moustache-wearing corporal. What will come may or may not be worse than what has been averted (and from a group that gets terrorists out of prison to give them governships nothing good can come imho)
Yeah, but Hitler stopped the Reds.
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 01:21:03 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 01:01:19 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 12:03:49 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 11:53:56 AM
"but it did not abolish democracy or drive the opposition underground"
Only because it was stopped before it cneould do these things. Things might have gone better if someone had done that in 1933 in Germany
Someone DID do that in 1933 Germany. :P
no one stopped Hitler when they could. It would also have been a coup, but sometimes that is (likely to be) better than the alternative. Almost anything that didn't involve Hitler would have been better than something involving Hitler in power. In Egypt a similar scenario seemed to be unfolding. Luckily Morsi wasn't as fast or decisive as the moustache-wearing corporal. What will come may or may not be worse than what has been averted (and from a group that gets terrorists out of prison to give them governships nothing good can come imho)
Yeah, but Hitler stopped the Reds.
Delayed them. Just like Tet did.
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 01:21:03 PM
Yeah, but Hitler stopped the Reds.
More like empowered them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 01:41:04 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 01:21:03 PM
Yeah, but Hitler stopped the Reds.
More like empowered them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany
That's the Allies at work, not Hitler.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2013, 01:12:28 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 11:53:56 AM
"but it did not abolish democracy or drive the opposition underground"
Only because it was stopped before it cneould do these things. Things might have gone better if someone had done that in 1933 in Germany
Well Cohen's no MB apologist.
But what's the basis for that? They were in power for about eighteen months. We can look at their record, and had they abolished democracy by the next election they could have, as we've seen, been removed.
The Nazi comparison is interesting precisely because it shows how speedily and ruthlessly totalitarian states act in establishing and consolidating their power. Compare MB Egypt eighteen months in with Germany in June 1934. As I say this is the second wing of conspiracy thinking by the Egyptian elite and anti-MBers. The facts suggest they either weren't despots in waiting or they were too incompetent to pull it off. To my mind neither justifies a coup.
Similarly it would be nice if Western liberals and human rights activists showed an ounce of the outrage over this far more brutal repression that they did over Turkey.
Meanwhile around 40 brothers have died in prison during an 'attempted escape'. Sisi's also spoke again. The overwhelming response seems a mixture of fear and admiration for his charisma and lots more Nasser comparisons.
the comparison is that the MB/Morsi blundered, dithered and retreated. Luckily. They didn't manage to establish their dictatorship (politically at least, given their influence on the Streets most of their rule is already there) not for a lack of trying but for an abundance of failing.
and why should
western liberals anyone show compassion to a group that -like I said- gets terrorists (the Hatsjepsut-monument massacre, 60+ dead iirc) out of jail and makes them governors? Or goes on a rampage against christians or anyone that doesn't follow their particular fairytale.
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 01:41:04 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 01:21:03 PM
Yeah, but Hitler stopped the Reds.
More like empowered them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany
That's the Allies at work, not Hitler.
I wonder what could have brought such a diverse group of governments together to form the allies and then invade German territory?
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 01:51:02 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 01:41:04 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 01:21:03 PM
Yeah, but Hitler stopped the Reds.
More like empowered them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany
That's the Allies at work, not Hitler.
I wonder what could have brought such a diverse group of governments together to form the allies and then invade German territory?
All sorts of things. After all, the Soviets were coming west at some point no matter what.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 01:50:38 PM
the comparison is that the MB/Morsi blundered, dithered and retreated. Luckily. They didn't manage to establish their dictatorship (politically at least, given their influence on the Streets most of their rule is already there) not for a lack of trying but for an abundance of failing.
But where's the evidence they were going to institute a dictatorship or that they could? I mean you say not for want of trying but what did they actually do?
They won 25% of the vote in the first round Presidential elections (down from almost 40% in the parliamentary elections a year before). They won the Presidential run-off against a former Mubarak PM. Within 18 months their popularity had declined enormously. They never had much of a mandate and they frittered it away.
I don't think the MB support democracy in principal and long-term I think they would be a problem. But they weren't anywhere near getting rid of it and were eroding their support through their incompetence. There were meant to be parliamentary later this year - there was no indications that the MB were about to cancel or disrupt them. In part I think the same things that will make them fiercely difficult to 'dissolve' made them incompetent at government.
They weren't good for Egypt, but I think a coup is worse. Letting them fail, democratically would've been better. Had they acted against future elections there's no reason to think the street and army wouldn't have been able to overthrow them anyway.
Quoteand why should western liberals anyone show compassion to a group that -like I said- gets terrorists (the Hatsjepsut-monument massacre, 60+ dead iirc) out of jail and makes them governors? Or goes on a rampage against christians or anyone that doesn't follow their particular fairytale.
It's not about compassion, but consistency and credibility. Right now I think many western liberals or human rights groups have pissed their credibility away.
They went apeshit over an elected Islamist government using mostly non-lethal force to remove protesters. Which was right the police were brutal and there's problems in Turkeys.
An army kills over 600 people in a sit-in (not, as Egyptian state TV calls it, an 'armed sit-in' and without the chemical weapons they alleged) and arrest hundreds of people for their political views and there's barely a whimper.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 01:51:02 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 01:41:04 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 18, 2013, 01:21:03 PM
Yeah, but Hitler stopped the Reds.
More like empowered them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany)
That's the Allies at work, not Hitler.
I wonder what could have brought such a diverse group of governments together to form the allies and then invade German territory?
I suppose we can credit Hitler with the current German government. Hitler's not so bad after all! :rolleyes:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2013, 03:49:21 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 01:50:38 PM
the comparison is that the MB/Morsi blundered, dithered and retreated. Luckily. They didn't manage to establish their dictatorship (politically at least, given their influence on the Streets most of their rule is already there) not for a lack of trying but for an abundance of failing.
But where's the evidence they were going to institute a dictatorship or that they could? I mean you say not for want of trying but what did they actually do?
They won 25% of the vote in the first round Presidential elections (down from almost 40% in the parliamentary elections a year before). They won the Presidential run-off against a former Mubarak PM. Within 18 months their popularity had declined enormously. They never had much of a mandate and they frittered it away.
I don't think the MB support democracy in principal and long-term I think they would be a problem. But they weren't anywhere near getting rid of it and were eroding their support through their incompetence. There were meant to be parliamentary later this year - there was no indications that the MB were about to cancel or disrupt them. In part I think the same things that will make them fiercely difficult to 'dissolve' made them incompetent at government.
They weren't good for Egypt, but I think a coup is worse. Letting them fail, democratically would've been better. Had they acted against future elections there's no reason to think the street and army wouldn't have been able to overthrow them anyway.
Quoteand why should western liberals anyone show compassion to a group that -like I said- gets terrorists (the Hatsjepsut-monument massacre, 60+ dead iirc) out of jail and makes them governors? Or goes on a rampage against christians or anyone that doesn't follow their particular fairytale.
It's not about compassion, but consistency and credibility. Right now I think many western liberals or human rights groups have pissed their credibility away.
They went apeshit over an elected Islamist government using mostly non-lethal force to remove protesters. Which was right the police were brutal and there's problems in Turkeys.
An army kills over 600 people in a sit-in (not, as Egyptian state TV calls it, an 'armed sit-in' and without the chemical weapons they alleged) and arrest hundreds of people for their political views and there's barely a whimper.
Yeah, I noticed that myself. We had a big thread and everyone bitching about the heavy handed goverment tactics in Turkey. A lot of people here and around the world would prefer a dictatorship to an Islamist government.
Generally agree with you Shelf, but I have seen footage of at least one Brother carrying and firing an AK. And no one that I'm aware of seems to have disputed the dead cops.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 18, 2013, 04:07:31 PMGenerally agree with you Shelf, but I have seen footage of at least one Brother carrying and firing an AK. And no one that I'm aware of seems to have disputed the dead cops.
Yeah and there have been more and more attacks on the Copts, I think from the Brothers. It doesn't seem anywhere near as widespread as the government or their supporters are alleging though and certainly not enough to justify this level of force.
But with that I generally wait for the Western media to pick up on them. A number of ones that I've seen Egyptians sharing have since been wildly debunked as photoshopped.
Edit: Also to my knowledge none of that's been associated with the main protest in Rabaa. From what I know there's no suggestion that that really is an 'armed camp'.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2013, 04:13:45 PM
Yeah and there have been more and more attacks on the Copts, I think from the Brothers. It doesn't seem anywhere near as widespread as the government or their supporters are alleging though and certainly not enough to justify this level of force.
43 dead cops seems to me to be vindication of the level of force.
What tanks on the street, use of live ammunition and 700 citizens dead? :blink:
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2013, 04:20:51 PM
What tanks on the street, use of live ammunition and 700 citizens dead? :blink:
:mellow: Given that the Brotherhood had enough firepower to cap 43 cops, I think live ammunition is within the Pale.
Okay. I disagree, but then I'm very dubious about the army on the streets at all for crowd-control or of the police having access to live ammunition.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2013, 03:49:21 PM
It's not about compassion, but consistency and credibility. Right now I think many western liberals or human rights groups have pissed their credibility away.
They went apeshit over an elected Islamist government using mostly non-lethal force to remove protesters. Which was right the police were brutal and there's problems in Turkeys.
An army kills over 600 people in a sit-in (not, as Egyptian state TV calls it, an 'armed sit-in' and without the chemical weapons they alleged) and arrest hundreds of people for their political views and there's barely a whimper.
I don't agree at all.
I can't speak for all western liberals, but for many people I think democracy is a means to an end, and the ultimate end is a tolerant, secular society with a government that protects human rights, promotes a stable economic environment, and provides for the general public welfare (education, health care, social welfare, etc).
The Muslim Brotherhood may have been elected, but the mass movement has elements that are prone to do things like attack churches when they don't get their way. They seem to have some nasty and ignorant people in their base. I don't think any credibility is undermined by western liberals not shaking their fists and insisting the Muslim Brotherhood be put back in charge.
None of this matters though. It isn't as though Western Liberal opinions make so much difference in Egypt, or that if only there was a bit more consistency Egyptians would do what we want.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2013, 04:36:30 PM
Okay. I disagree, but then I'm very dubious about the army on the streets at all for crowd-control or of the police having access to live ammunition.
:huh: Are you reading what you're writing? You want them to disarm people using non-violent tactics? A couple choruses of kumbaiya and the Brotherhood would throw down their weapons and disperse?
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
... the ultimate end is a tolerant, secular society with a government that protects human rights, promotes a stable economic environment, and provides for the general public welfare (education, health care, social welfare, etc).
And if a dictatorship or military junta does that, you're all for it.
Quote from: citizen k on August 18, 2013, 04:45:42 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
... the ultimate end is a tolerant, secular society with a government that protects human rights, promotes a stable economic environment, and provides for the general public welfare (education, health care, social welfare, etc).
And if a dictatorship or military junta does that, you're all for it.
I think that for a lot of reasons a military junta can't do that successfully.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 04:47:27 PM
Quote from: citizen k on August 18, 2013, 04:45:42 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
... the ultimate end is a tolerant, secular society with a government that protects human rights, promotes a stable economic environment, and provides for the general public welfare (education, health care, social welfare, etc).
And if a dictatorship or military junta does that, you're all for it.
I think that for a lot of reasons a military junta can't do that successfully.
Including the Egyptian coup.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 18, 2013, 04:41:42 PM
:huh: Are you reading what you're writing? You want them to disarm people using non-violent tactics? A couple choruses of kumbaiya and the Brotherhood would throw down their weapons and disperse?
Well we're talking thousands or tens of thousands of Brothers (at least) that were cleared. There were 43 police killed but I don't think that suggests a significant number of the MB were armed. I think watercannon, rubber bullets and tear gas would've been sufficient to clear the square.
Admittedly one problem with this is they'd still have the training of a Middle Eastern police force/army at crowd clearance. But there's less potential for huge amounts of casualties just from police panicking.
QuoteThe Muslim Brotherhood may have been elected, but the mass movement has elements that are prone to do things like attack churches when they don't get their way. They seem to have some nasty and ignorant people in their base. I don't think any credibility is undermined by western liberals not shaking their fists and insisting the Muslim Brotherhood be put back in charge.
The issue of credibility is that lots of people were furious at the mildly Islamist government's crackdown on sit-ins in Turkey. They were far less violent. But don't seem to care when it's hundreds of Islamists dying defending a democratically elected government.
I see democracy as an end in itself. A system of government that requires some measure of free speech and allows for the peaceful transfer of power is, for me, a worthwhile end as well as a means.
But also I think liberals should be confident in their values. It works as an ideology because it's attractive. So embrace it and argue with opponents - whether they're the far-right like the EDL or the BNP, or Islamists (again lots of self-proclaimed liberals agree with me on the former but will support any level of illiberalism against Islamists).
In the case of Egypt it means supporting the democratic process, opposing coups and opposing unreasonable levels of violence against protesters.
QuoteNone of this matters though. It isn't as though Western Liberal opinions make so much difference in Egypt, or that if only there was a bit more consistency Egyptians would do what we want.
I'm still pretty neo-con. I think we desperately need to align our values and policies in the Middle East. That's why I agree with McCain and Graham on all of this.
I think the reason for discrepancy amongst so many Western Liberals is that they are simply not keen on Muslims. Opposing Erdogan's crackdown in Turkey and tacitly supporting the Military's crackdown in Egypt is perfectly consistent if don't want to see religious Muslims in power.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2013, 05:29:06 PM
Well we're talking thousands or tens of thousands of Brothers (at least) that were cleared. There were 43 police killed but I don't think that suggests a significant number of the MB were armed. I think watercannon, rubber bullets and tear gas would've been sufficient to clear the square.
Next time Egypt has this problem you can volunteer to fire tear gas canisters while someone kills you.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 18, 2013, 05:50:56 PMNext time Egypt has this problem you can volunteer to fire tear gas canisters while someone kills you.
Of course I don't think there was any need to clear a peaceful sit-in.
But that's fair and as I say I doubt any Middle Eastern police force (except possibly for Israel) would be able to do it.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2013, 05:41:08 PM
I think the reason for discrepancy amongst so many Western Liberals is that they are simply not keen on Muslims. Opposing Erdogan's crackdown in Turkey and tacitly supporting the Military's crackdown in Egypt is perfectly consistent if don't want to see religious Muslims in power.
You make that sound as if the liberals are bigots.
I doubt any police force in the world would be able to do it. And I'm dead certain that no police force would be willing to try.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2013, 05:29:06 PM
The issue of credibility is that lots of people were furious at the mildly Islamist government's crackdown on sit-ins in Turkey. They were far less violent. But don't seem to care when it's hundreds of Islamists dying defending a democratically elected government.
I see democracy as an end in itself. A system of government that requires some measure of free speech and allows for the peaceful transfer of power is, for me, a worthwhile end as well as a means.
But also I think liberals should be confident in their values. It works as an ideology because it's attractive. So embrace it and argue with opponents - whether they're the far-right like the EDL or the BNP, or Islamists (again lots of self-proclaimed liberals agree with me on the former but will support any level of illiberalism against Islamists).
In the case of Egypt it means supporting the democratic process, opposing coups and opposing unreasonable levels of violence against protesters.
Well, I put a different weight on the relative importance of western liberal values. I don't think an islamist government with all the implications to women's rights, religious minority rights, freedom of expression, education, etc, is acceptable in the 21st century. I'm simply not going to take its side, regardless of how dubious the Egyptian military may be.
The situation in Turkey is completely different. Turkey has had a longstanding secular government with the rule of law. It is a world away from the chaos and dysfunction that is Egypt.
If that means I have no credibility, then I just won't be credible. :P
Turkey has a long standing secular government. I'm not sure they had rule of law.
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2013, 06:04:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2013, 05:41:08 PM
I think the reason for discrepancy amongst so many Western Liberals is that they are simply not keen on Muslims. Opposing Erdogan's crackdown in Turkey and tacitly supporting the Military's crackdown in Egypt is perfectly consistent if don't want to see religious Muslims in power.
You make that sound as if the liberals are bigots.
It seems to me that suspicion of Muslims plays a big part in this.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2013, 06:57:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2013, 06:04:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2013, 05:41:08 PM
I think the reason for discrepancy amongst so many Western Liberals is that they are simply not keen on Muslims. Opposing Erdogan's crackdown in Turkey and tacitly supporting the Military's crackdown in Egypt is perfectly consistent if don't want to see religious Muslims in power.
You make that sound as if the liberals are bigots.
It seems to me that suspicion of Muslims plays a big part in this.
I don't know. I have nothing against Muslims but I do recoil at how sharia is implemented.
Quote from: citizen k on August 18, 2013, 04:45:42 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 18, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
... the ultimate end is a tolerant, secular society with a government that protects human rights, promotes a stable economic environment, and provides for the general public welfare (education, health care, social welfare, etc).
And if a dictatorship or military junta does that, you're all for it.
It's part of the means to an end. The path from junta to democracy is a lot easier than the path from theocracy to democracy. Easier admin tech requirements and a lot less stab hits.
When did Raz become the Defender of the Faith? I don't think he was always like this.
Quote from: DGuller on August 18, 2013, 08:05:11 PM
When did Raz become the Defender of the Faith? I don't think he was always like this.
Raz doesn't have convictions. He argues against stuff.
Quote from: DGuller on August 18, 2013, 08:05:11 PM
When did Raz become the Defender of the Faith? I don't think he was always like this.
Cause I don't like over throwing governments because you don't like who won the election.
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2013, 07:02:32 PM
I don't know. I have nothing against Muslims but I do recoil at how sharia is implemented.
Okay, but Sharia's already in every constitution in the Arab world and likely to remain so. So for me that's the starting point and the issue is how can you move away from it. I think there's more chance for change in systems that also have elections than coups, entrenched military power, ossification and dictatorship.
Tunisia could be an exception. Their draft constitution (from an Islamist government that won a majority, unlike the MB, and entered coalition with left parties, unlike the MB) doesn't have a reference to Sharia.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2013, 09:11:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 18, 2013, 08:05:11 PM
When did Raz become the Defender of the Faith? I don't think he was always like this.
Cause I don't like over throwing governments because you don't like who won the election.
Your obsessive defense of religion goes a little beyond that. Could be just contrarianism, though, since this board leans decidedly atheist.
Shiv overrates Egypt's ability to be grown up about "democracy", of which they know absolutely nothing about other than the occasional foray at universities in other countries, where they tend to stay.
At this point, I think we can safely say that Israel is pretty safe from being attacked by Egypt or anyone else.
I don't see much point in continued US attempts to steer Egypt in the "right" direction. There is no viable alternative that we can support. We cannot and should not be supporting a government run by Islamic radicals, even if legitimately elected, and we certainly should not be supported military regimes that overthrow democratically elected governments, regardless of how odious those governments might be.
Time to punt, and get the fuck out?
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2013, 07:07:07 AM
At this point, I think we can safely say that Israel is pretty safe from being attacked by Egypt or anyone else.
I don't see much point in continued US attempts to steer Egypt in the "right" direction. There is no viable alternative that we can support. We cannot and should not be supporting a government run by Islamic radicals, even if legitimately elected, and we certainly should not be supported military regimes that overthrow democratically elected governments, regardless of how odious those governments might be.
Time to punt, and get the fuck out?
It must be tricky, because the Egyptian junta will look for support somewhere if they cannot massacre enough opposition on their own, and what they have done already means they either rule or hang from lamp poles, so if the US turns it`s back completely, they would probably get feelers out toward Iran.
And Israel can never be safe from these people. Hardly anything unites a population better than jew-hate. If Egypt doesn`t stabilize. expect border incidents and increased Egyptian buildup to defend from Zionist aggression.
Apparently Egypt gets a lot more funding from Saudi Arabia than from the US, so there really isn't much the US can do really. And there are no good alternatives anyway.
Quote from: Tamas on August 19, 2013, 07:21:43 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2013, 07:07:07 AM
At this point, I think we can safely say that Israel is pretty safe from being attacked by Egypt or anyone else.
I don't see much point in continued US attempts to steer Egypt in the "right" direction. There is no viable alternative that we can support. We cannot and should not be supporting a government run by Islamic radicals, even if legitimately elected, and we certainly should not be supported military regimes that overthrow democratically elected governments, regardless of how odious those governments might be.
Time to punt, and get the fuck out?
It must be tricky, because the Egyptian junta will look for support somewhere if they cannot massacre enough opposition on their own, and what they have done already means they either rule or hang from lamp poles, so if the US turns it`s back completely, they would probably get feelers out toward Iran.
And Israel can never be safe from these people. Hardly anything unites a population better than jew-hate. If Egypt doesn`t stabilize. expect border incidents and increased Egyptian buildup to defend from Zionist aggression.
Very possible. But I think Israel can pretty much handle anything that Egypt wants to throw at them from a conventional sense, and we can simply shift some of the funds sent to Egypt to Israel if necessary to augment their ability to defend themselves.
But the idea that we should continue to support Egypt as a means of maintaining influence over them and force them to play nice with Israel seems to me a rather dated idea at this point.
Quote from: Berkut on August 19, 2013, 08:49:48 AM
But the idea that we should continue to support Egypt as a means of maintaining influence over them and force them to play nice with Israel seems to me a rather dated idea at this point.
Good point: just as the Cold War-era
realpolitik approach to adopting and supporting client states in the Muddled East is no longer a viable option for US policy, the simple fact is Egypt just isn't as important to the US as it was in, say, the 1980s. Back then, from Israel to countering Soviet influence to the Canal, it mattered. Now, not so much.
Everybody seems to want to know why the US isn't doing "anything" from a policy standpoint in Syria, Libya, Egypt...but we neither possess the means nor the need to do "anything" anymore, either.
Sure, Islamic fundamentalism needs to be capped, but hey, they want to vote 'em in, there's not much we can do about it; over the long run, it's not going to be a matter of dodging Islamic fundamentalism, it's going to wind up being a choice between which type of fundamentalism is going to be worse to do business with: Shia fundamentalism that looks to Tehran, or Sunni fundamentalism that points to AQ and 9/11 bullshit.
Unfortunately for us, the Age of Dictators is over.
Well, this certainly isn't the way to improve relations with the Egyptian FOP:
QuoteSuspected Islamist militants ambushed two police minibuses in northern Sinai on Monday, launching rocket-propelled grenades that killed at least 24 police officers and injured three others.
Egyptian authorities reported that the attack took place near the town of Rafah on the Egyptian-Israeli border, raising U.S. and Israeli concerns about heightened militant activity near the Gaza Strip.
The attack underscored the extent of ongoing violence in Egypt, which has claimed over 1,000 lives since Egyptian security forces stormed pro-Morsi sit-ins last Wednesday.
Meanwhile, on Sunday, the Egyptian government announced that 36 Islamist detainees died in custody while attempting to escape from the police.
The Interior Ministry said the prisoners "died of suffocation and crowding after tear gas was used to stop their escape," but the Muslim Brotherhood labeled the incident "murder" and "assassination."
In response to the Egypt crisis, the European Union convened emergency talks on Monday in which it would "urgently review its relations with Egypt and adopt measures aimed at pursuing these goals." The Obama administration decided on Sunday to withhold economic assistance to Egypt, but so far is continuing the $1.3 billion annual aid package to the Egyptian military.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2013, 06:56:22 PM
Turkey has a long standing secular government. I'm not sure they had rule of law.
And there may be a connection from that fact to the events in Egypt.
The AKP has long been seen as the very best case scenario for an Islamic governing party. From the standpoint of an Egyptian military commander, the best possible case that could come out of MB rule in Egypt would be something like the AKP in Turkey.
But that isn't very reassuring for the Egyptian military. Because on August 5, the former Chief of General Staff of the Turkish Army along with other former high military officials were convicted and sentenced to long prison terms on what appear to be trumped up and political motivated charges.
If I were an Egpytian general, that news would give me great concern about my likely future should an MB government return to power and consolidate its authority.
That could be one of the factors that helped tip the balance to hardliners in the Egyptian military one month after the Morsi coup.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 19, 2013, 11:23:50 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2013, 06:56:22 PM
Turkey has a long standing secular government. I'm not sure they had rule of law.
And there may be a connection from that fact to the events in Egypt.
The AKP has long been seen as the very best case scenario for an Islamic governing party. From the standpoint of an Egyptian military commander, the best possible case that could come out of MB rule in Egypt would be something like the AKP in Turkey.
But that isn't very reassuring for the Egyptian military. Because on August 5, the former Chief of General Staff of the Turkish Army along with other former high military officials were convicted and sentenced to long prison terms on what appear to be trumped up and political motivated charges.
If I were an Egpytian general, that news would give me great concern about my likely future should an MB government return to power and consolidate its authority.
That could be one of the factors that helped tip the balance to hardliners in the Egyptian military one month after the Morsi coup.
excellent point.
I think this is simply a case of neither faction really thinking in terms of fighting it out in the political arena. Maybe it was just fear from the other side not respecting the rules, but they both wanted to settle the score outside of democracy.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 18, 2013, 03:49:21 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 18, 2013, 01:50:38 PM
the comparison is that the MB/Morsi blundered, dithered and retreated. Luckily. They didn't manage to establish their dictatorship (politically at least, given their influence on the Streets most of their rule is already there) not for a lack of trying but for an abundance of failing.
But where's the evidence they were going to institute a dictatorship or that they could?
well, if that's what you're going to claim there's little reason to bother, isn't there?
Quote from: DGuller on August 18, 2013, 09:53:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2013, 09:11:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 18, 2013, 08:05:11 PM
When did Raz become the Defender of the Faith? I don't think he was always like this.
Cause I don't like over throwing governments because you don't like who won the election.
Your obsessive defense of religion goes a little beyond that. Could be just contrarianism, though, since this board leans decidedly atheist.
I find most atheists to be smug, sophomoric and tiresome.
A rather pointed opinion from one of the fellas over at Brookings
QuoteA Future Worse Than Mubarak's Reign
By: Shadi Hamid
It would be perverse if the January 2011 revolution paved the way for something worse than what it sought to replace. But that is where Egypt is headed. Under the regime of Hosni Mubarak, the Muslim Brotherhood was repressed, but the repression was never total. The Brotherhood, as the country's largest opposition force, was allowed room to operate, to contest elections, and to have seats in parliament. Mubarak may have been a dictator, but he was no radical.
The current military government is much more ambitious, with its aim to dismantle the Brotherhood and destroy it as a political force. Unlike Mubarak, the generals have tapped into real, popular anger against the Brotherhood – after its many failures in power – and helped nurture that anger into something ugly and visceral. It's no surprise when armies use force. That's what armies do. But it is scary to see ordinary Egyptians, "liberal" political parties and much of the country's media class cheering it on so enthusiastically.
Democratic transitions, even in the best of circumstances, are uneven, painful affairs. But it no longer makes much sense to say that Egypt is in such a transition. Even in the unlikely event that political violence somehow ceases, the changes ushered in by the July 3 military coup and its aftermath will be exceedingly difficult to reverse. The army's interventionist role in politics has become entrenched. Rather than at least pretending to rise above politics, the military and other state bodies have become explicitly partisan institutions. This will only exacerbate societal conflict in a deeply polarized country. Continuous civil conflict, in turn, will be used to justify permanent war against an array of internal and foreign enemies, both real and imagined.
There is no need to be surprised. This is what military coups look like. The symbolism, of course, is especially striking. Egypt is the most populous Arab country and a bellwether for the region. There was a time when observers would say banal, hopeful things like "Egypt can show the way toward a new democratic Middle East." But that was a different time.
Are we supposed to be sad about the demise of the Brotherhood? Sure repression is bad and shouldn't be aimed for - but then neither is radical islam.
Quote from: garbon on August 21, 2013, 10:21:57 AM
Are we supposed to be sad about the demise of the Brotherhood? Sure repression is bad and shouldn't be aimed for - but then neither is radical islam.
We're supposed to be sad about the derailment of democratic progress and the politicization of the military.
Not a surprise, Egypt seems to be very rapidly turning into a very unpleasant police state; I think the army, but especially all the internal security forces feel emboldened by the relative 'success' of their operations in recent days.
Nasty things are now happening, actually very nasty, as in not seen even under Mubarhak. Like this weeks killing of 38 MB prisoners at first supposedly whilst escaping, then because of teargas inhalation and now the lawyers for the families say as the result of torture and summary execution within the prison.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 19, 2013, 11:23:50 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 18, 2013, 06:56:22 PM
Turkey has a long standing secular government. I'm not sure they had rule of law.
And there may be a connection from that fact to the events in Egypt.
The AKP has long been seen as the very best case scenario for an Islamic governing party. From the standpoint of an Egyptian military commander, the best possible case that could come out of MB rule in Egypt would be something like the AKP in Turkey.
But that isn't very reassuring for the Egyptian military. Because on August 5, the former Chief of General Staff of the Turkish Army along with other former high military officials were convicted and sentenced to long prison terms on what appear to be trumped up and political motivated charges.
If I were an Egpytian general, that news would give me great concern about my likely future should an MB government return to power and consolidate its authority.
That could be one of the factors that helped tip the balance to hardliners in the Egyptian military one month after the Morsi coup.
I was thinking similarly to that. The Egyptian military may feel it is acting as the safe guard against government becoming too extreme, similar to how the Turkish military used to function until the latest rulers clamped down on the military. And now the Eqyptian military may be acting partly because they fear what happened in Turkey could happen to them and the nation slide into an extreme government with the MB taking over and consolidating more and more power to themselves.
Hosni is free!
Time to reinstall him!
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 21, 2013, 12:05:10 PM
Hosni is free!
Time to reinstall him!
I thought he was pretty sick and on death's door?
Alaa Abdelnaby for president!
Allahu Akbar seems be pretty popular over there as well.
Quote from: DGuller on August 21, 2013, 12:13:34 PM
Allahu Akbar seems be pretty popular over there as well.
I prefer admiral Ackbar myself, even if he looks a bit fishy.
Quote from: DGuller on August 21, 2013, 12:08:02 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 21, 2013, 12:05:10 PM
Hosni is free!
Time to reinstall him!
I thought he was pretty sick and on death's door?
Who gives a shit. We'll make it work.
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3479/3709570391_9345d2693c_m.jpg)
And the struggle continues in Libya:
QuoteLibyan army, militias clash in Benghazi
Clashes between Libyan troops and an armed group in the eastern city of Benghazi have killed at least nine people and wounded at least 47 during a military operation, the Interior Ministry said.
The Libyan army on Monday declared a state of alert in Benghazi and summoned all troops to report for duty after a battle with Ansar al-Sharia fighters erupted.
Gunfire and explosions could be heard and thick smoke rose from the Ras Obeida area of the city. The army ordered residents to stay off the streets, witnesses told the AFP news agency.
Fighting broke out when an army special forces unit chased a suspect into an area where Ansar al-Sharia operates its own checkpoints, city security officials said. the group was blamed for the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi a year ago when Ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other Americans were killed.
Rival militia groups withdrew from Tripoli last week after clashes killed more than 40 people when protesters marched to one of the fighters' bases to demand they leave the capital.
Militia defiance
The clashes came as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and British Foreign Secretary William Hague met in London with Libyan Prime Minister Ali Zeidan, who was briefly abducted in Tripoli last month by Ansar al-Sharia.
Kerry said after the meeting that the U.S. and Britain would continue to support Libya, after weeks of violence in the country.
"The prime minister informed us of a transformation that he believes is beginning to take place and could take place because the people of Libya have spoken out and pushed back against the militias," Kerry said.
"So this is a moment of opportunity where there's a great deal of economic challenge, there's a great deal of security challenge."
The government has hired some of Libya's armed groups to provide security, but they remain loyal to their commanders or tribes and often clash in disputes over territory or personal feuds.
The Libyan government has struggled to restore order as fighters, most of whom were among the rebels who fought in the war that toppled Muammar Gaddafi in 2011, have defied the new military's attempts to disarm them.
I like Kerry's attempt to put a smiley face on a very bad situation. He should have gone with "Did you know in Chinese the ideogram for Libya is made up of the characters for danger and opportunity?"
I can't wait till all the Libyans start saying life was better under Gahdafi and blaming the Great Satan for liberating them. :)
Egypt have kicked out the Turkish ambassador after Erdogan had called for a release of Mursi and criticized the heavy handedness of how the military handled pro-Mursi protests.
Quote from: Caliga on November 25, 2013, 02:52:30 PM
I can't wait till all the Libyans start saying life was better under Gahdafi and blaming the Great Satan for liberating them. :)
Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"
I love the smell of teargas in the morning it smells like victory. :)
QuoteTear gas fired in Tahrir Square as draft constitution nears approval
December 1, 2013 4:21PM ET
Anti-government and pro-Morsi protesters rallied as voting began on draft constitution that would ban religious parties
Egyptian security forces fired tear gas in Cairo's Tahrir Square to disperse anti-government protesters Sunday, as a new constitution that would reinforce the military's political power edged closer to approval.
"The people want to topple the regime," chanted several hundred protesters who descended on the square as voting was underway on a draft constitution that would ban all religious parties.
Though it only lasted about half an hour before security forces acted, it appeared to be the biggest protest by Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers in Tahrir since deposed President Mohamed Morsi's fall in early July. An Egyptian court in September banned all activities by the Brotherhood on the basis of national security.
One protester scaled a lamppost where he hung a picture of Morsi. Others flashed the four-finger hand sign denoting sympathy with the hundreds of Morsi supporters shot dead by the security forces when they broke up their Cairo sit-ins Aug. 14.
Some of the protesters said they were not from the Brotherhood. "I want Sisi out and a real end to army rule," said Ramez Ibrahim, 32, a professor of political science, referring to armed forces chief Gen. Abdel Fattah al-Sisi.
Army vehicles moved in to drive the demonstrators away and later sealed off the square completely. Some passersby shouted abuse at the protesters; others waved in support.
The government says it is determined to implement a law passed last week that heavily restricts protests. Criticized by the United States, the law has hardened fears of pro-democracy campaigners about the future of political freedoms in Egypt.
Banning religious parties
A few hundred yards from Tahrir Square, the 50-member constituent assembly was voting on the draft constitution, the provisions of which include a ban on parties formed on a religious basis. Islamist parties like the Brotherhood and the hardline Nour party, which backed Morsi's ouster, have won all national votes.
The draft constitution reflects how the balance of power has shifted in Egypt since secular-minded generals deposed Morsi in July after mass protests against him. It contains language that could ban Islamist parties outright.
The Nour party has described the draft as "satisfying."
A major milestone in Egypt's political roadmap, the constitution must be approved in a referendum before new elections, which Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood, driven underground by security measures and a legal ban, is unlikely to contest.
The new constitution will replace one drafted by an Islamist-dominated assembly and signed into law by Morsi last year, after it was approved in a referendum. The new text strips out Islamist-inspired additions introduced last year.
The 2011 Tahrir Square uprising awoke hopes of a new era of freedom in Egypt, which is the world's most populous Arab nation. But three years of turmoil have made many Egyptians yearn for stability.
Sisi is now seen as an army strongman and a front-runner for the presidency, though he has yet to declare his candidacy.
Morsi's fall set off the bloodiest bout of internal strife in Egypt's modern history, with hundreds of his partisans killed and armed attacks on the security forces becoming commonplace.
Arab Democracy is the longest and most painful route from military dictatorship to military dictatorship.
The case against Morsi was open and shut. The only thing missing was something to charge him with:
QuoteEgypt's Morsi to stand trial over prison break, spreading chaos
December 21, 2013 8:47AM ET
The new charges against Morsi and 129 others widen the legal crackdown on the ousted Islamist president and his group, the Muslim Brotherhood, leveling sweeping accusations, most of which carry the death penalty.
Egypt's new, military-backed authorities have sought to portray the Brotherhood as largely responsible for violence and militant attacks that engulfed the country following the 2011 ouster of Morsi's predecessor, longtime autocrat Hosni Mubarak. The violence has surged in the aftermath of a popularly-backed military coup that deposed Morsi in July.
The latest case against Morsi, Egypt's first freely-elected president, is rooted in events during the 2011 uprising.
Days after major protests erupted against Mubarak, the government arrested dozens of Brotherhood leaders, including Morsi. Then, amid the turmoil and collapsing security, more than 20,000 inmates escaped in a series of jailbreaks, including Morsi and other Brotherhood members. Authorities said the jailbreaks were part of an organized effort to destabilize the country.
Investigative Judge Hassan Samir on Saturday said other Brotherhood suspects in the case include the group's leader Mohammed Badie, his deputy Mahmoud Ezzat, who is still at large, former Parliament Speaker Saad el-Katatni and others.
Also charged are members of the armed political groups Hamas, of Palestine, and Lebanon's Hezbollah group. Members from those two groups were among those who broke out of Egyptian jails. A prominent pro-Brotherhood cleric Youssef el-Qaradawi, an Egyptian based in Qatar, is also on the list, said a prosecution official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to reporters.
A prosecution statement from Samir's office didn't name all the 129 defendants. It said an investigation into the case since April has shown that the Brotherhood plotted with foreign groups to "destroy the Egyptian state and its institutions," recruiting some 800 militants in the Gaza Strip to attack police stations and at least three prisons in Egypt, breaking out thousands of prisoners and killing policemen and other inmates.
No date has been set for the trial.
Already, Morsi and several leading Muslim Brotherhood members face charges in a separate case of inciting the murder of his opponents while he was in office — a trial that has already started and is due to resume next month.
Morsi was also charged earlier this week with conspiring with foreign groups to destabilize Egypt in a case dubbed "the biggest case of conspiracy" in the nation's history. A date for that second trial also has not been announced, though officials have suggested it would likely come after the Jan. 14-15 referendum to avoid an earlier start that could fuel turmoil.
The 83-year-old Brotherhood had been banned under Mubarak and earlier Egyptian regimes, but was mostly tolerated. The new crackdown is a dramatic turn in fortunes, particularly after the group rose to prominence as Egypt's best-organized political movement to win the first free parliament elections and successfully bid for the country's highest office.
Since the coup, prompted by massive protests calling for Morsi's removal, Egypt has been in a state of continual unrest. Morsi supporters have been holding near daily protests demanding his reinstatement, met by a fierce security crackdown that has killed hundreds of people and arrested thousands of Brotherhood members. Meanwhile, a wave of retaliatory attacks by suspected Islamic militants have targeted Christians and security forces, and the Sinai Peninsula has been the center of a mounting armed insurgency.
With thousands of Brotherhood members under arrest and scores facing charges like Morsi, the Islamist group and rights organizations have called the trials politically motivated.
GUILTY!
All's well that ends well.
QuoteMorsi was also charged earlier this week with conspiring with foreign groups to destabilize Egypt in a case dubbed "the biggest case of conspiracy" in the nation's history.
That's like winning the World Cup of conspiracies. :cheers:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2013, 12:21:51 PM
QuoteMorsi was also charged earlier this week with conspiring with foreign groups to destabilize Egypt in a case dubbed "the biggest case of conspiracy" in the nation's history.
That's like winning the World Cup of conspiracies. :cheers:
Then again, this is Egypt the place where the conspiracy was invented. The Young Officers, The Harem Conspiracy, Muhammed Ali and of course the Conspiracy to Convince the Egyptians that Egypt won the Yom Kippur War.
That was kind of my point Puff. :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2013, 12:34:58 PM
That was kind of my point Puff. :huh:
1 - remember, very often my sarcasm detector malfunctions
2 - running a conspiracy which relies on HAMAS for muscle suggests a level of incompetence that only Dunning-Kruger can explain.
3 - The secularists, the Army, the Copts, the Business Community and the supporters of certain soccer clubs did run a conspiracy and that conspiracy dealt with Morsi in a reasonably quick, efficient and relatively bloodless manner.
I just think that calling this "the biggest case of conspiracy" de-legitimizes the purge since any reasonably historically literate egyptian (the few that are out there) will understand how incompetent morsi's conspiracy was. Teh conspriacy that overthrew morsi was bigger and more efficient by a large margine. I think the proper charge that should be made was incompetence, not the conspiracy morsi was incompetent at.
QuoteEgypt court jails activists over protests
Three leading activists sentenced to three years in prison over illegal protests, the latest move in widening crackdown.
A Cairo court has sentenced three leading activists to three years in prison for organising an illegal protest, the latest move in a widening crackdown on critics of the interim government.
Two of the three activists, Ahmed Maher and Mohamed Adel, are leading members of the April 6 movement. The third is Ahmed Douma, a longtime activist.
They have been targets for prosecution before: Douma was fined for insulting deposed President Mohamed Morsi earlier this year, and Maher was briefly detained in May on incitement charges.
The court on Sunday also handed down fines of 50,000 Egyptian pounds ($7,200). A lawyer for the defendants said they would appeal the verdict.
This was the first criminal trial under a restrictive law issued last month that requires protesters to seek approval from the interior ministry. The three-year jail sentence is the maximum allowed under the law.
"I'm surprised. I did not expect they would come back with a verdict worse than ever before, that they would take revenge on the protesters from the revolution," said Amal Sharaf, a co-founder of April 6.
"They [the government] will pay a lot for this," she added.
The defendants were charged with organising a protest last month outside Abdeen Court in downtown Cairo. Maher was at the court to turn himself in on charges connected with another illegal protest, earlier in November, outside the Shura Council, the upper house of parliament.
Maher has denied any role in the earlier demonstration, which was organised by a lobbying group to protest an article in the draft constitution allowing military trials for civilians.
The defendants were also charged with obstructing traffic, "thuggery," and damaging private property. Security forces and protesters briefly scuffled with batons and plastic furniture from a nearby cafe. Officers said the defendants attacked them first. April 6 has denied this, and called the charges "political."
In a particularly surreal twist, prosecutors presented as evidence the fact that Douma asked protesters to stop the rally once it turned violent - proof, they said, that he helped organise the demonstration.
He was arrested at his home several days after Maher turned himself in. Adel remained free until early Thursday morning, when he was detained during a raid on a local human rights organisation.
Thousands of people have been arrested since the military ousted President Mohamed Morsi in July, most of them supporters of the president and his Muslim Brotherhood. But the crackdown has recently widened to include liberal and secular activists.
Groups like April 6 have been portrayed in state and private media as a "fifth column," working to undermine the country's stability. So while Sunday's verdict was quickly condemned by activists, it is unlikely to meet much criticism from the general population.
Sharaf said April 6 would respond to the conviction for organising an illegal protest with, unsurprisingly, another protest.
In the United States "Thuggery" would get you a record contract. In India it would get you the ability to take a man's still beating heart out of his chest with your bare hands. Egypt is really wasting their potential.
Bus bombings are no longer just for Israeli school children:
QuoteEgyptian govt threatens Brotherhood leaders with death sentences
December 26, 2013 8:55AM ET Updated 9:00PM ET
The decree comes after five are wounded in a bus bombing, amid escalating rhetoric against the Muslim Brotherhood
Five people were injured on Thursday when a bomb exploded near a bus at a busy intersection in Cairo, one day after the interim government classified the Muslim Brotherhood a "terrorist organization" and two days after a blast at a police station in the Nile Delta city of Mansoura killed 14 people.
The bomb detonated in the Nasr City neighborhood, in front of Al-Azhar University. Ambulance workers said one of the injured passengers was in critical condition.
Police said the bomb was a small homemade device planted in the street. It blew out the windows of the bus, but caused little damage to the surrounding area. And the driver was able to move the bus after police cordoned off the area.
"We defused two other bombs in the area, which were meant to detonate by remote," said an officer at the scene, speaking on condition of anonymity.
There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the bombing. Government spokesman Abdel-Fatah Osman told state TV said that the bomb was planted near a school complex "to terrorize people and cause chaos."
Cairo has seen several homemade bomb attacks in recent months, though they have typically targeted security forces. Thursday's blast appeared to be the first targeting civilians. Last month Mohamed Mabrouk, a lieutenant colonel in the state security service, was killed near his home in Nasr City. Interior Minister Mohammed Ibrahim survived an assassination attempt in the neighborhood in September.
Thursday's blast came hours after the interim government labeled the Muslim Brotherhood a "terrorist organization" and froze the assets of charities linked to the group.
Egyptian authorities have arrested 23 Muslim Brotherhood supporters Thursday on accusations of belonging to a terrorist organization.
The people arrested were accused of passing out leaflets in support of the Brotherhood, promoting the group's ideology, and inciting violence against the Egyptian security services, according to Egypt's state media agency, MENA.
Interior Ministry spokesman Hany Abdel Latif told state TV that anyone taking part in Brotherhood protests will be jailed for five years. Jail terms for those accused under the terror law stretch up to life imprisonment.
"The sentence could be death for those who lead this organization," he said.
Terrorism charges will also apply to anyone who finances or promotes the group "verbally and in writing." Publication of the Brotherhood's newspaper, Freedom and Justice, was halted in response to the decision.
"Egypt will stand firmly in confronting terrorism and the people will never be afraid as long as the army is present," said Egyptian army chief General Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, during an army graduation ceremony on Thursday in Cairo.
On Wednesday, the Sinai-based group Ansar Beit al-Makdis claimed responsibility for the Mansoura bombing in a statement posted online. Numerous attacks have killed dozens of soldiers and police officers in the Sinai over the past few months.
Despite Ansar Beit al-Makdis' claim, the government nonetheless pinned the blame on the Brotherhood. The Brotherhood has denied any involvement, saying the government is trying to scapegoat it, and called for increased protests. Authorities are facing mounting criticism that they have not done enough to restore security following months of political turmoil.
"The police and the army, they are the biggest powers in the country, and they have one responsibility, to protect the people," said Tarek Ezzedine, who witnessed the explosion. "They need to do their job."
Al-Azhar University has for months been the site of near-daily protests by student supporters of President Mohamed Morsi, who was ousted in a military coup in July. The university, and the bombing site, are down the road from Raba'a al-Adawiya square, one of two locations where hundreds of pro-Morsi protesters were killed by police in August.
Hany Abdellatif, a spokesman for the interior ministry, said the bombing was meant to instill fear ahead of a January referendum on Egypt's new constitution. The Muslim Brotherhood opposes the referendum and has carried out small protests daily calling for the reinstatement of Morsi.
I feel better already. :)
The military government have banned the Muslim Brotherhood (which could be even more dangerous than normal given their charity work and the state of the Egyptian economy) as terrorists.
They've established a helpline for people to report suspected Brotherhood members as well as other helplines to report 'suspicious packages' or 'suspicious gatherings of people'.
Being a member carries a 5 year sentence. Leading a pro-MB demonstration carries the death sentence 'even if a woman' according to the Interior Ministry.
They've also raided human rights charities offices and arrested people campaigning against the constitution for sedition.
Sadly all predictable from a military coup, but very difficult to stop. It's 1954 again :(
Incidentally there's no links between the Brotherhood and any terrorism.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 27, 2013, 06:14:49 PM
Incidentally there's no links between the Brotherhood and any terrorism.
Give it time. There will be.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 27, 2013, 06:31:16 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 27, 2013, 06:14:49 PM
Incidentally there's no links between the Brotherhood and any terrorism.
Give it time. There will be.
At this time, they sort of force their hands. What sort of peaceful recourse is left? If the army seized power to overthrow an election, butchered 1,000 protesters, outlawed a political party with penalties ranging from 5 years to death I'd be kind of pissed as well. But few people care, since the victims are Muslim.
You could as well be describing Gandhi's India.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 27, 2013, 07:02:42 PM
You could as well be describing Gandhi's India.
I didn't know that Ghandi executed leaders of protests.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 27, 2013, 06:50:56 PMAt this time, they sort of force their hands. What sort of peaceful recourse is left? If the army seized power to overthrow an election, butchered 1,000 protesters, outlawed a political party with penalties ranging from 5 years to death I'd be kind of pissed as well. But few people care, since the victims are Muslim.
They're not just a political party though. They've survived before - and this is why they've got a closed, secretive membership system - but they've got 300 000 members, most of whom are mainly interested in the charitable work. I imagine, as they've done before, they'll go underground and survive.
Some will see it as another reason they should never have got involved in politics, but others will certainly radicalise. I'd be surprised if the Brotherhood as a whole did.
QuoteI didn't know that Ghandi executed leaders of protests.
Even she never went that far.
he he
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 27, 2013, 09:21:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 27, 2013, 06:50:56 PMAt this time, they sort of force their hands. What sort of peaceful recourse is left? If the army seized power to overthrow an election, butchered 1,000 protesters, outlawed a political party with penalties ranging from 5 years to death I'd be kind of pissed as well. But few people care, since the victims are Muslim.
They're not just a political party though. They've survived before - and this is why they've got a closed, secretive membership system - but they've got 300 000 members, most of whom are mainly interested in the charitable work. I imagine, as they've done before, they'll go underground and survive.
Some will see it as another reason they should never have got involved in politics, but others will certainly radicalise. I'd be surprised if the Brotherhood as a whole did.
QuoteI didn't know that Ghandi executed leaders of protests.
Even she never went that far.
Unfortunately I think it is pretty much guaranteed that if the MB ever gets close to power again, they will not waste time doing the soft crawl to shaping the country their way, like they were doing (rather impotently, I might add) with Mursi.
They will replicate the methods used against them currently.
In other words, the Middle East will remain the violent shithole it has been the past three thousand years.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 27, 2013, 06:14:49 PM
Incidentally there's no links between the Brotherhood and any terrorism.
Naturally the founding of Al-Qaeda by MB members and the MBs affiliation with HAMAS don't actually count as links? If you had said something like "Since 1952 the MB has tried to disassociate itself from violence and terror, except when directed at Israel" you would be making a more nuanced and factually accurate statement.
I'm kinda curous guys. What are you supposed to do when being part of a protest will net you five years and leading one will get you an execution (if you aren't just slaughtered in the street by the army"
Quote from: Razgovory on December 28, 2013, 11:03:05 AM
I'm kinda curous guys. What are you supposed to do when being part of a protest will net you five years and leading one will get you an execution (if you aren't just slaughtered in the street by the army"
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.graphicdesignforum.com%2Fchrisd%2Fliberty.jpg&hash=a0abb51f3c32c7b5c54df05f3f86cd435cc35be9)
Quote from: Viking on December 28, 2013, 05:31:06 AM
Naturally the founding of Al-Qaeda by MB members and the MBs affiliation with HAMAS don't actually count as links? If you had said something like "Since 1952 the MB has tried to disassociate itself from violence and terror, except when directed at Israel" you would be making a more nuanced and factually accurate statement.
Not in this context. It's like Fine Gael banning Fianna Fail after a CIRA bomb.
Ironically many Salafi groups are actually quite keen on the new government and collaborating with it such as the Nour Party.
I don't know what's more depressing. The utterly predictable outcome of a military coup or that so many Egyptians are happy with their new police state :(
Quote from: Razgovory on December 28, 2013, 11:03:05 AM
I'm kinda curous guys. What are you supposed to do when being part of a protest will net you five years and leading one will get you an execution (if you aren't just slaughtered in the street by the army"
Wait for elections.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 28, 2013, 11:32:22 AM
Quote from: Viking on December 28, 2013, 05:31:06 AM
Naturally the founding of Al-Qaeda by MB members and the MBs affiliation with HAMAS don't actually count as links? If you had said something like "Since 1952 the MB has tried to disassociate itself from violence and terror, except when directed at Israel" you would be making a more nuanced and factually accurate statement.
Not in this context. It's like Fine Gael banning Fianna Fail after a CIRA bomb.
Ironically many Salafi groups are actually quite keen on the new government and collaborating with it such as the Nour Party.
I don't know what's more depressing. The utterly predictable outcome of a military coup or that so many Egyptians are happy with their new police state :(
You said there was no link. There is a link. Before they were running around murdering government ministers and various other nefarious activities. Since then the Muslim Brotherhood has associated itself with organizations with similar political objectives in different arab and muslim countries; many of these organizations, including HAMAS, are straight up terrorists.
Quote from: Savonarola on November 25, 2013, 02:14:22 PM
And the struggle continues in Libya:
QuoteLibyan army, militias clash in Benghazi
Clashes between Libyan troops and an armed group in the eastern city of Benghazi have killed at least nine people and wounded at least 47 during a military operation, the Interior Ministry said.
The Libyan army on Monday declared a state of alert in Benghazi and summoned all troops to report for duty after a battle with Ansar al-Sharia fighters erupted.
Gunfire and explosions could be heard and thick smoke rose from the Ras Obeida area of the city. The army ordered residents to stay off the streets, witnesses told the AFP news agency.
Fighting broke out when an army special forces unit chased a suspect into an area where Ansar al-Sharia operates its own checkpoints, city security officials said. the group was blamed for the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi a year ago when Ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other Americans were killed.
Rival militia groups withdrew from Tripoli last week after clashes killed more than 40 people when protesters marched to one of the fighters' bases to demand they leave the capital.
Militia defiance
The clashes came as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and British Foreign Secretary William Hague met in London with Libyan Prime Minister Ali Zeidan, who was briefly abducted in Tripoli last month by Ansar al-Sharia.
Kerry said after the meeting that the U.S. and Britain would continue to support Libya, after weeks of violence in the country.
"The prime minister informed us of a transformation that he believes is beginning to take place and could take place because the people of Libya have spoken out and pushed back against the militias," Kerry said.
"So this is a moment of opportunity where there's a great deal of economic challenge, there's a great deal of security challenge."
The government has hired some of Libya's armed groups to provide security, but they remain loyal to their commanders or tribes and often clash in disputes over territory or personal feuds.
The Libyan government has struggled to restore order as fighters, most of whom were among the rebels who fought in the war that toppled Muammar Gaddafi in 2011, have defied the new military's attempts to disarm them.
I like Kerry's attempt to put a smiley face on a very bad situation. He should have gone with "Did you know in Chinese the ideogram for Libya is made up of the characters for danger and opportunity?"
It really doesn't seem that bad to me, it's not exactly Iraq, let alone Afghanistan or Syria.
QuoteTunisia's Islamist prime minister resigns amid nationwide protests
Tunisia's premier handed in his resignation Thursday to make way for an interim government of independents under a plan to end months of political deadlock and mounting social unrest, the state news agency said.
Just days before the third anniversary of the overthrow of veteran strongman Zine El Abidine Ben Ali in the first of the Arab Spring uprisings, Prime Minister Ali Larayedh was due to step down under a plan drawn up by mediators to put the transition back on track.
His resignation is expected to lead to his replacement within 15 days by premier designate Mehdi Jomaa at the head of a government of technocrats that will lead the country to fresh elections under a new constitution.
The powerful UGTT trade union confederation, which has been the lead mediator in the six-month crisis between the moderate Islamist-led government and the mainly secular opposition, had called on the premier to step down by Thursday under the terms of its reconciliation roadmap.
The Ennahda party has been under mounting pressure to relinquish the grip on power it won after the uprising in elections to a constituent assembly, as the economy has stagnated and social unrest has intensified.
Events in fellow Arab Spring country Egypt, where elected President Mohamed Morsi was overthrown by the army in July after a single year in power, have compounded the pressure.
The approval of a new constitution, which Ennahda had also demanded in return for handing over power, is on track to meet an agreed deadline of Jan. 14, the uprising's third anniversary, with the assembly voting on it intensively article by article.
The new charter had been delayed for months by the withdrawal of opposition assembly members in protest of the July killing of one of their own by suspected jihadists in July.
But their return has seen compromises swiftly reached on many of the most divisive provisions, including gender equality and the role of Islam.
On Thursday, the constituent assembly agreed to an article setting a goal of 50-50 representation between the sexes in all elected bodies, in keeping with the secularism that Tunisia adopted at independence which has given Tunisian women the most extensive rights in the region.
The quickening political reconciliation moves come against a backdrop of an intensification of the social unrest that was a key catalyst for the 2011 uprising.
Central Tunisia in particular, where a young street vendor sparked the uprising by setting himself on fire in protest at his impoverished circumstances, has seen a spate of violent protests in recent days.
Late on Wednesday, several hundred protesters went demonstrated in the town of Feriana, in the central Kasserine region, attacking a tax office, a police post, a bank and a municipal building, residents and a policeman told Agence France-Presse.
The UGTT called a general strike in Kasserine on Wednesday to protest at the persistent economic crisis gripping the town.
Nationwide, growth was less than 3 percent last year, insufficient to bring down the country's unemployment rate, which exceeds 30 percent.
:o
That shows considerably more dedication to the cause than taping a dollar bill over your mouth. The Arabs are much better at building awareness than our domestic protesters.
Were you unaware of the self immolation dude until now? :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2014, 10:47:55 AM
Were you unaware of the self immolation dude until now? :huh:
I didn't read the article carefully enough; I thought this was a new self-immolation dude. :Embarrass:
It wouldn't be an legitimate Egyptian election unless some people died:
QuoteViolence mars Egypt constitution vote
At least 11 people were killed in confrontations between Muslim Brotherhood supporters and police on Tuesday, as Egyptians voted on a draft constitution that may set the stage for a presidential bid by army chief General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi.
An additional 28 people were wounded in clashes between security forces and protesters loyal to former President Mohamed Morsi, according to Egypt's Health Ministry. The ministry says the deaths occurred in Cairo, the adjacent province of Giza and two provinces south of the capital, Bani Suef and Sohag.
The election marks the first time Egyptians have gone to the polls since the military deposed Morsi in July.
The Brotherhood, Egypt's largest political force, was recently banished from political life. But that has not stopped the group from calling for a boycott and protests over the draft constitution, which deletes Islamic language written into the basic law approved a year ago when Morsi was still in office. It also strengthens state bodies that defied him: the army, the police and the judiciary.
On Tuesday, Brotherhood supporters staged protests in at least four cities, with police arresting 65 people who were trying to obstruct voting, security officials said.
While a state crackdown has erased many freedoms won by the 2011 uprising against President Hosni Mubarak, anticipation of a more stable government catapulted Egypt's stock market Tuesday to its highest level since Mubarak's downfall. In its fourth straight day of gains, the main index exceeded its January 2011 peak.
The referendum is a milestone in the political transition plan the army-backed government has billed as a path back to democracy, even as it presses a fierce crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood.
A presidential election could follow as early as April. A senior European diplomat on Tuesday said Sisi would probably announce his candidacy in the next few days — a prospect that will delight supporters but could stir more conflict with his Islamist opponents.
With little or no signs of a campaign against the draft constitution — one moderately Islamist party says its activists were arrested while campaigning for a no-vote — it is expected to pass easily, backed by many Egyptians who staged mass protests on June 30 against Morsi and the Brotherhood before his removal.
"We are here for two reasons: to eradicate the Brotherhood and take our rights in the constitution," said Gamal Zeinhom, a 54-year-old voter standing in line at a Cairo polling station.
Others cited a desire to bring stability to Egypt after three years of turmoil.
Sisi ousted Morsi, Egypt's first freely elected head of state, on July 3. His Islamist opponents say he is the mastermind of a coup that kindled the worst internal strife in Egypt's modern history and revived an oppressive police state.
But after a failed experiment with democracy, many are weary of the upheaval that has gripped this nation of 85 million and shattered its economy. They see Sisi, 59, as someone who can stabilize and protect Egypt from what local media depict as foreign and domestic conspiracies to divide the nation.
Earlier this week, the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ), a Geneva-based group that works to uphold the rule of law, described the referendum as highly flawed.
"The referendum campaign has taken place within a context of fear, intimidation and repression, calling into question the fairness of the entire process," it said in a statement.
The government recently escalated its crackdown on the Brotherhood, declaring it a "terrorist organization" on Dec. 25. Al-Qaeda-inspired militants have stepped up attacks on security forces since Morsi's ouster.
While the government has linked the attacks to the Brotherhood, the group has repeatedly said it is a non-violent movement committed to peaceful resistance to the state.
We want you, Big Brother
The constitution (which it's worth noting is more Islamist than the democratic option) in Egypt has been approved by 98%, here's a piece from Al Ahram which I think captures the mood:
QuoteWhy the constitution?
Lubna Abdel Aziz
What a hard-fought, drawn-out, brutal battle that was! For three long years, since 25 January 2011, the people of Egypt have engaged in a virtual war against the Monstrous Brotherhood from within and against the rest of the world from without. Taking their destiny in their hands, the people of Egypt have now declared victory.
It came upon us slowly, stealthily, silently. Basking in a state of euphoria after ousting a despotic ruler, we found ourselves in the throes of a ruthless, extremist terrorist rule, which gloried in the sight of blood, looting and burning churches, badgering and killing Muslims in the name of a religion that forbids the taking of human life.
Within six months, revolted by this inhuman conduct, the people of Egypt took to the streets, filling bridges, squares and parks in every city and town and village, crying "foul".
Out of nowhere appeared a man of the people, brimming with humility, compassion and courage, with a voice as soothing and caressing as the gentle rains from heaven, alleviating every pain, healing every wound, wiping every tear. Backed by the army, General Abdel-Fattah Al-Sisi stood behind the citizens. The tyrant Morsi was removed from office, incarcerated with his cronies.
We are a people of religious spirit and strong convictions, and no one is to tell us differently.
We swam through a sea of deception and corruption and found the shore.
We walked through a dark and endless tunnel and found the light.
We flung the rubbish overboard and restored chaos into harmony.
We have defied the Western powers, bent on forcing the MB down our throats. We scratched their agenda and dashed their dreams.
Three years of our lives and our history have been lost. Now we must start anew, in search of our democracy.
Once again, we start from the beginning, armed with a new constitution to ensure that no other form of government will suppress, smother or squash us.
Why the constitution?
Order and a sense of safety and security are innate in human nature. Even in the early days a leader, chief or high-priest was selected to protect and safeguard the group. Every country needs a constitution, a charter, a set of principles, a body of rules which regulate the conduct through which governmental power is exercised. It is a sort of guide to the government to maintain discipline, to serve the people and do their bidding.
Government belongs to the people. The constitution must be obeyed by both people and government.
Egypt is well familial with constitutional law going as far back as 1923. This fine constitution would have been retained were it not for the different rulers who would re-write constitutions to fit their needs and desires. With the removal of the monarchy in 1952, a new constitution was drafted in 1956, followed by several changes, custom-made for each new ruler.
The catastrophe occurred in 2012 when the new MB government established a reprehensible constitution that robbed the people of their rights, transferring all the power to the governing body. That is when the alarm bells started ringing, warning the people of Egypt that this was not the democratic rule they sought.
It has been said that the American constitution of 1787 is the best written social and political document in history. Fresh out of the yoke of British colonialism, the American Framers of the Constitution produced a brilliant philosophic, judicial charter that limits the power of the various organs of the government, affording the citizens human and legal rights as never before. It is hailed for its simplicity, brevity and precision of its language.
The French constitution of 1875 contains no provisions regarding the method of elections, the term of office and totally ignored the power of the judiciary.
Another constitution praised by experts is the constitution of India. Far too long and bulky, containing 444, articles it is nonetheless a remarkable specimen of excellence.
While most countries have written constitutions, Britain, New Zealand and Israel are the only three countries without a written constitution. The English Magna Carta of 1215 has been the basis of British rule as well as several other constitutions including that of the US, which in some instances has copied it word for word.
We have a constitution! After weeks and weeks of toil and trouble, a 50-member assembly headed by Amr Moussa, the former Arab League chief, has produced the finest constitution Egypt has ever known. In fact it is favourably compared with the world's leading constitutions. Most important in our new constitution is the undisputed equal rights of Christians, the most ancient of citizens alive today.
We have stood by for decades while the governing powers have seized our rights as citizens and human beings. But we had a rendez-vous with destiny. We are survivors. While others have faded and disappeared from history, we the people of Egypt are still here, overcoming every obstacle, enduring every hardship. We have survived the autocratic rule of Hosni Mubarak, followed by the bloody, heavy-handed MB. We have survived even without the US military aid and are deeply grateful to Obama for teaching us our worth. We shall overcome peril and sorrow, and yes, we shall never surrender.
We have changed our destiny. We have altered history.
We have dug the foundation and laid the cornerstone for our future.
The future is near, shining bright, burning with excitement, glowing with hope.
"Government without constitution is power without right". Thomas Paine (1787-1809)
Quote from: Savonarola on January 09, 2014, 10:43:50 AM
:o
That shows considerably more dedication to the cause than taping a dollar bill over your mouth. The Arabs are much better at building awareness than our domestic protesters.
Don't worry, Ide and I are going to fix that soon.
Damn, our plan to get the Muslim Brotherhood into power has been foiled. What next?
Al-J reporting that Egypt's ambassador to Libya has been kidnapped in Tripoli.
Arabs don't seem to like each other very much these days.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 19, 2014, 09:39:14 AM
Out of nowhere appeared a man of the people, brimming with humility, compassion and courage, with a voice as soothing and caressing as the gentle rains from heaven, alleviating every pain, healing every wound, wiping every tear.
This guy is amazing!
Quote from: Legbiter on January 24, 2014, 04:49:44 PM
Arabs don't seem to like each other very much these days.
well, it's not until recently that their hatred of the jews didn't mask that
Militants Down Egyptian Helicopter, Killing 5 Soldiers
'Islamist militants shot down an Egyptian military helicopter in the Sinai Peninsula with a surface-to-air missile, raising alarms about the terrorist insurgency.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/27/world/middleeast/militants-down-egyptian-helicopter-killing-5-soldiers.html
I bet they said "We're number 1!" on the footage over and over and over again, too.
I have seen Neilist justice and it works:
QuoteEgypt mass death sentences spark outrage
Rights groups, US and EU express concern at court verdict against 529 Muslim Brotherhood supporters.
The death sentences handed out by an Egyptian court against 529 supporters of the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood have sparked widespread outrage and international condemnation.
Rights groups, the United States and the European Union expressed concern and questioned the fairness of proceedings against so many defendants lasting just two days.
The largest mass sentencing in the country's history was a sharp escalation of a crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood that the military-installed government has declared a "terrorist organisation".
Monday's sentences in the central city of Minya were related to the death of a policeman and other violence that took place across the country since July, when the army overthrew Egypt's first freely elected president, Mohamed Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Nearly 700 other Muslim Brotherhood supporters, including Mohamed Badie, the supreme guide of the movement, are due in court on Tuesday.
Amnesty International said the death sentences were "a grotesque example of the shortcomings and the selective nature of Egypt's justice system".
The UK-based rights group said it was the "largest single batch of simultaneous death sentences we've seen in recent years, not just in Egypt but anywhere in the world," and called for the verdicts to be quashed.
Legal experts said the shock verdict would likely be overturned on appeal because the court had rushed the trial without following the required procedures.
Lawyers said the judge brought the case to a close after two sessions and refused to allow the defence to complete their cases.
But Egypt's army-installed interim government defended the court's handling of the case, insisting that the sentences had been handed down only "after careful study" and were subject to appeal.
Proceedings questioned
Washington said it was "deeply concerned" about the death sentences.
"While appeals are possible, it simply does not seem possible that a fair review of evidence and testimony consistent with international standards could be accomplished with over 529 defendants after a two-day trial," a State Department official said.
The US partially suspended its $1.5bn in annual aid to longtime ally Egypt, much of it to the military, after last summer's crackdown on the opposition.
EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton urged Egyptian authorities to grant defendants "the right to a fair and timely trial" and said "capital punishment can never be justified".
Defence counsel Mohamed Tousson charged that the judge had rushed to sentencing on Monday after being angered by a lawyer's request for his recusal at Saturday's opening hearing.
"He got very angry, and adjourned the trial for sentencing," Tousson told AFP news agency. "It's a huge violation of defendants' rights."
The Muslim Brotherhood said the death sentences were yet "another indication that the corrupt judiciary is being used by the coup commanders to suppress the Egyptian revolution and install a brutal regime".
At least 1,400 people have been killed in the crackdown on Morsi's supporters and thousands more arrested, according to Amnesty International.
Of the 529 sentenced on Monday, only 153 are in custody. The rest were tried in their absence and have the right to a retrial if they turn themselves in. Another 17 defendants were acquitted.
Morsi is himself currently on trial in three different cases. He was toppled by the army after a single year in power following mass protests demanding his resignation.
lf the attribute of popular government in peace is virtue, the attribute of popular government in revolution is at one and the same time virtue and terror, virtue without which terror is fatal, terror without which virtue is impotent. The terror is nothing but justice, prompt, severe, inflexible; it is thus an emanation of virtue.-Maximilien Robespierre
:yeah:
As much as I don't approve of those 529 people being alive due to them being evil islamist scumbags, I feel a bit queasy about how they got convicted.
Neilist justice is the only true justice. I have high hopes for the Egyptian state if this is how they will carry on their affairs.
Egypt is fucked.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2014, 11:41:37 AM
Egypt is fucked.
That's been true ever since Ramesses III was assassinated, though.
The Zapruder stele clearly indicates a second bowman.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2014, 11:41:37 AM
Egypt is fucked.
Sisi's running for President, but has said he will serve under and respect anyone else who runs and wins :lol:
It does worry me though. Egypt looks on a similar sort of path as Pakistan.
Quote from: Agelastus on March 25, 2014, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2014, 11:41:37 AM
Egypt is fucked.
That's been true ever since Ramesses III was assassinated, though.
The Harem Conspiracy, the beginning of the end. One wonders where those :Joos got the plot from the garden of end story from.
Worse than Hifter :mad:
QuoteArmed group attacks Libyan parliament
Government insists it is in control after attack on parliament by forces loyal to a renegade general.
Libya's government has insisted it is still in control of the worsening security situation, even as an al-Qaeda-inspired group vowed to fight troops loyal to a renegade general behind an attack on the country's parliament.
Gunmen launched an attack on the parliament in the capital Tripoli on Sunday and demanded its suspension and an airport in the Eastern city of Benghazi came under rocket attack early on Monday.
Later on Monday the al-Qaeda-inspired Lions of Monotheism Group said it would fight forces apparently loyal to a renegade Libyan general, Khalifa Hifter, after they attacked parliament and suspended its activities.
The Associated Press news agency reported that Libya's army chief had ordered the deployment of the group, compounding the issue voiced by Hifter of unofficial armed groups being used by the government to enforce laws.
Hifter is a one-time rebel commander who said the US backed his efforts to topple Muammar Gaddafi in the 1990s. He says his group is taking on some of Libya's most hardline groups, and blames the government for not doing more to tackle them.
Hours before the parliamentary suspension, members of an armed group backed by truck-mounted anti-aircraft guns, mortars and rocket fire attacked parliament, sending politicians fleeing for their lives as gunmen ransacked the legislature, the Associated Press news agency reported.
MPs were evacuated from the building in southern Tripoli as heavy gunfire erupted after a convoy of armoured vehicles entered the city from the airport road and headed for the GNC.
The attack reportedly killed two people and wounded more than 50.
Witness joins a group of Libyan rebel fighters defending the frontline in MisrataEarly on Monday, the violence escalated as unknown attackers fired rockets at Benina airport in Libya's second-largest city of Benghazi. Authorities had closed the airport on Friday for security reasons.
Libya has been struggling with chaos as its government, parliament and nascent armed forces are unable to impose their authority over brigades of former rebels and militias who helped oust Gaddafi in 2011 but now defy the state.
Saudi Arabia announced on Monday that it was closing its embassy and consulate in Tripoli and withdrawing all of its diplomatic staff, citing security concerns, the state news agency SPA reported.
General Mokhtar Farnana, speaking on a Libyan television channel on behalf of Hifter's group, said it had assigned a 60-member constituents assembly to take over for parliament.
Farnana said Libya's current government would act on as an emergency Cabinet, without elaborating.
Farnana, who is in charge of prisons operated by the military police, said forces loyal to Hifter carried out Sunday's attack on parliament.
He also said the attack on parliament was not a coup, but "fighting by the people's choice".
"We announce to the world that the country can't be a breeding ground or an incubator for terrorism," said Farnana, who wore a military uniform and was seated in front of Libya's flag.
Early on Monday morning, Libya's interim government condemned the attack on parliament and largely ignored the declaration by the general's group.
"The government condemns the expression of political opinion through the use of armed force," Salah al-Marghani, the justice minister, said in a statement.
"It calls for an immediate end of the use [of] the military arsenal... and calls on all sides to resort to dialogue and reconciliation."
'Extremists'
The attack came after an assault on Friday by Hifter's forces on hard-line religious armed groups in the restive eastern city of Benghazi that authorities said killed 70 people.
On Sunday, gunmen targeted Islamist politicians and officials Hifter blames for allowing "extremists" to hold the country at ransom, his spokesman Mohammed al-Hegazi told Libyan television station al-Ahrar.
Officials believe members of the al-Qaaqaa and Sawaaq militias, the largest in the capital, backed Hifter even though they operate under a government mandate. Al-Qaaqaa posted a statement on its official Facebook page saying it attacked parliament with Sawaaq because politicians supported "terrorism".
Parliamentary head Nouri Abu Sahmein earlier told Libyan television station al-Nabaa that parliament would convene on Tuesday.
The part about Al-Qaeda coming to the rescue of the legitimate government reminded me of the ending of "Birth of a Nation" where the Klan restores order to the south.
Libya was probably better off with Qaddafi in control. He was mostly secular, had given up his WMDs and appeared to be more willing to work with the West, and also in opposing the radical groups. Now the place is a mess, no strong government and there doesn't seem to be a good end game. I don't know how much help the Libyan govt. is getting from other nations, the UN, etc. but they seem pretty weak right now and the radicals are gaining strength.
That is anemic turnout. I'm a bit surprised, even if the election is rigged, an authoritarian regime like this can at least usually get people to polls.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/egypts-military-ruler-suffers-an-embarrassment-at-the-polls/2014/05/28/770e52c8-e68e-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html
QuoteEgypt's military ruler suffers an embarrassment at the polls
Editorial Board, Thursday, May 29, 8:07 AM
EGYPT'S PRESIDENTIAL election has turned out to be considerably more revealing of national sentiment than might have been expected. Despite increasingly desperate measures by authorities, including the extension of polling from two days to three and threats to fine anyone who didn't cast a ballot, turnout was disastrously low. While an official newspaper reported a figure of 37 percent Wednesday, other sources, including the sole opposition candidate, said it was closer to 15 percent. The relentless propaganda by the regime of Gen. Abdel Fatah al-Sissi, which claimed he enjoyed overwhelming support from an adoring population, was proved false.
That may surprise Western supporters of Gen. Sissi, including many in the Obama administration, who have bought into the former general's claim that he can restore stability to Egypt. On Wednesday Mr. Obama said at West Point that the United States had not cut off cooperation with the military regime because of "security interests" such as the peace treaty with Israel and "shared efforts against violent extremism." The election is one more sign that Gen. Sissi lacks the means or the mandate to deliver on those interests.
That the low turnout reflected more than apathy or hot weather was confirmed by a recent survey in Egypt conducted by the Pew Research Center. It showed that 72 percent of Egyptians were dissatisfied with the direction of the country and that Gen. Sissi was viewed favorably by only 54 percent, compared with 45 percent who rated him unfavorably. Despite massive repression, the arrest of thousands of its members and a vicious media campaign, almost 40 percent still were willing to tell Pew's pollsters they have a positive view of the Muslim Brotherhood and former president Mohamed Morsi.
Gen. Sissi will no doubt take office in spite of the failed election, but his strategy of eliminating the Muslim Brotherhood with repression clearly has no chance of success. If he persists he will drive supporters of the group into the arms of more militant organizations, making terrorism worse.
Meanwhile, interviews Gen. Sissi has been giving suggest his notions for managing the crippled economy range from anachronistic to delusional. As David D. Kirkpatrick of the New York Times reported, his rhetoric echoes the failed state socialism of former military ruler Gamal Abdel Nasser, while his solution to Egypt's energy shortage is to supply every home with power-saving light bulbs.
Mr. Obama may hope that Gen. Sissi will resemble former president Hosni Mubarak, who governed Egypt under a light autocracy for 30 years. But the chances of that are small. It is more likely that a crumbling economy and smoldering opposition to the coup that brought Gen. Sissi to power will propel Egypt toward increasing disorder, if not another revolution. If the Obama administration ignores warning signs like this week's election flop, sooner or later it will find itself hanging onto another weak and despised Arab dictator — and calculating the damage to Mr. Obama's "security interests."
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 28, 2014, 11:44:25 PM
That is anemic turnout.
LOL if 37% of Texans turned up for most of our elections I think there might be a parade. Under 10% turnout is not unusual.
Did al Sisi win?
A quick glance show's Texas was 4th lowest in 2012, but they still had a turnout rate of 49.7%
http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2012G.html
Yeah that is a Presidential election. I am talking about every other election: http://www.texastribune.org/2014/05/29/runoff-draws-lower-turnout-march-primary/
LOL 950,000 out of 13.6 million voters voted. Granted usually turnout is about 15% in a state election and not 7% but this was a runoff.
Just 145,000 people selected one of our finalists for a US Senate election. In a state of 25 million. Nobody gives a fuck about politics in Texas, it is hilarious.
In local politics it gets really sad. Your city is about to borrow 10 billion dollars for some useless piece of crap? Prepare yourself for 5% turnout and the stupid thing passing by a margin of about 40%. Then everybody bitches their property taxes mysteriously went up.
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2014, 06:44:11 PM
Nobody gives a fuck about politics in Texas, it is hilarious.
I really wish politicians in Texas felt that way, and stopped trying to get into the fucking White House. #dubyadestroyseconomypaintsfeetafterwards
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2014, 06:44:11 PM
Yeah that is a Presidential election. I am talking about every other election: http://www.texastribune.org/2014/05/29/runoff-draws-lower-turnout-march-primary/
And the election in Egypt was a presidential election, making it an appropriate comparison.
Also, 37% was the doctored number, the article said the actual number was more like 15%.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 29, 2014, 07:39:13 PM
And the election in Egypt was a presidential election, making it an appropriate comparison.
Not really. The Egyptian vote is a rigged dog and pony show. The Texas ones are very real and have important impacts on our lives.
However I was just making a statement about your description of 37% as anemic and I was wistfully thinking how grand it would be to get 37% turnout here.
How many of you would be inclined to trudge to the polls for an election where one of two candidates was expected to win 97% of the vote?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2014, 08:22:17 PM
How many of you would be inclined to trudge to the polls for an election where one of two candidates was expected to win 97% of the vote?
With that kind of defeatist attitude, of course the candidate you don't like will win 97% of the vote.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2014, 08:22:17 PM
How many of you would be inclined to trudge to the polls for an election where one of two candidates was expected to win 97% of the vote?
Too many people have died--and die every day in other countries for just dreaming about voting--for me not to spend the 20 minutes every 2 years to cast my vote: even for the usual sure-thing results in the People's Republic of Maryland.
Least I can do for the Maryland volunteers that bought Washington time with their lives at Brooklyn Heights, or the 29th at Omaha.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2014, 08:22:17 PM
How many of you would be inclined to trudge to the polls for an election where one of two candidates was expected to win 97% of the vote?
Well if I got a hold of a roll of those "I voted" stickers, I'd never take part in another election.
i've never voted. maybe next (presidential) election i will! :)
I used to love those paper ballots where I could ambiguously vote for different candidates (for example, only partially detaching the support for one candidate, and leaving a circled dimple for the other) knowing that I was contributing to chaos in the event of a recount.
Electronic voting has really taken a lot of the purpose out of voting for me.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 29, 2014, 08:22:17 PM
How many of you would be inclined to trudge to the polls for an election where one of two candidates was expected to win 97% of the vote?
Being from WV, that pretty much described general elections during my youth.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 29, 2014, 09:55:04 PM
I used to love those paper ballots where I could ambiguously vote for different candidates (for example, only partially detaching the support for one candidate, and leaving a circled dimple for the other) knowing that I was contributing to chaos in the event of a recount.
Electronic voting has really taken a lot of the purpose out of voting for me.
And yet, he claims he's not an anti-social sociopath.
The UN, shirking the white man's burden:
QuoteDeadly clashes erupt in Libya, airports shut down
The violence forced the United Nations to pull its staff from the country, though it says the move is temporary
July 14, 2014 9:00PM ET
The United Nations on Monday pulled its staff out of Libya where at least 10 people were killed Monday in fighting in the eastern city of Benghazi and in the capital Tripoli, forcing the closure of the international airport. The fighting was the worst in Tripoli for six months.
In Benghazi, at least four people have been killed and 30 wounded — mostly civilians — in heavy fighting between state security forces and rebels since late Sunday. Forces loyal to renegade former general Khalifa Haftar bombarded rebel bases there as part of his campaign to oust rivals. At least 10 houses were hit with missiles, and government offices and banks were forced to close.
Militias also clashed in the capital Tripoli on Sunday, killing at least six people and injuring 25, shutting the main airport and air control center and effectively leaving Libya with no international flights.
The United Nations mission in Libya said the closure of Tripoli International Airport and the deteriorating security situation made it impossible to fulfill its work. In a statement posted on its official website, the U.N. Support Mission in Libya said that the mission had already been reducing its staff in the country over the past week.
"This is a temporary measure. Staff will return as soon as security conditions permit. The United Nations, which stood by the Libyan people in their revolution in 2011, will not abandon them as they seek to build a democratic state," the statement read.
It added: "The United Nations looks forward to continuing to work with its Libyan partners and hopes to return to Tripoli as soon as possible."
Three years after the fall of Moammar Gadhafi, Libya has slipped deeper into chaos with its weak government and new army unable to control brigades of former rebel fighters and militias who often battle for political and economic power. The militias, many of which originate from rebel forces that fought Gadhafi, became powerful players in post-war Libya, filling a void left by weak police and a shattered army struggling to keep control of the airport.
Since Sunday, rival militias have been fighting for control of the Tripoli International Airport. Several rockets hit the airport, damaging the control tower, a Libyan official said. On Monday, civil aviation authorities announced a three-day closure of the airport. Shells raining down hit airplanes, damaged shuttle buses and airport entrances, and landed in the parking lot, an airport security official said.
Among the planes hit was an Airbus from Libya's state-owned Afriqiyah Airways worth $200 million, according to the official Facebook page of its sister airline, Libyan Arab Airlines. It said the crew was transferred to Libya's third largest city of Misrata to operate international flights from there.
Tripoli airport and Misrata city airport were closed on Monday which, along with the closure two months ago of Benghazi airport, leaves the country with only a land route to Tunisia — a flashback to the 1990s when Libya was under U.N. sanctions.
The Tripoli air control center covering western Libya was closed because it was not safe for staff to go to work, aviation officials and state news agency Lana said Monday. The control center is responsible for air traffic in Tripoli, Misrata and Sabha.
That leaves only the tiny Labraq and Tobruk airports in the east, with few international connections, open for traffic. People living in western Libya must make an arduous road journey to Tunisia.
This comes from Al-Jazeera; but I saw the story being covered on HLN this morning. I thought things really had to be going to hell in Libya for an American media conglomerate to report on it; but that was before I read the reassuring statement from the from the United Nations. :bowler:
Fuck, after watching all the bullshit over Benghazi, I'm not surprised the UN pulled out. Imagine the international shitstorm if some Euroweenie blue helmet sprained an ankle.