Arab Spring, Round 2

[alfred russel]

... the ultimate end is a tolerant, secular society with a government that protects human rights, promotes a stable economic environment, and provides for the general public welfare (education, health care, social welfare, etc).

And if a dictatorship or military junta does that, you're all for it.

I think that for a lot of reasons a military junta can't do that successfully.

[citizen k]

... the ultimate end is a tolerant, secular society with a government that protects human rights, promotes a stable economic environment, and provides for the general public welfare (education, health care, social welfare, etc).

And if a dictatorship or military junta does that, you're all for it.

I think that for a lot of reasons a military junta can't do that successfully.

Including the Egyptian coup.

[Sheilbh]

Are you reading what you're writing?  You want them to disarm people using non-violent tactics?  A couple choruses of kumbaiya and the Brotherhood would throw down their weapons and disperse?

Well we're talking thousands or tens of thousands of Brothers (at least) that were cleared. There were 43 police killed but I don't think that suggests a significant number of the MB were armed. I think watercannon, rubber bullets and tear gas would've been sufficient to clear the square.

Admittedly one problem with this is they'd still have the training of a Middle Eastern police force/army at crowd clearance. But there's less potential for huge amounts of casualties just from police panicking.

The Muslim Brotherhood may have been elected, but the mass movement has elements that are prone to do things like attack churches when they don't get their way. They seem to have some nasty and ignorant people in their base. I don't think any credibility is undermined by western liberals not shaking their fists and insisting the Muslim Brotherhood be put back in charge.

The issue of credibility is that lots of people were furious at the mildly Islamist government's crackdown on sit-ins in Turkey. They were far less violent. But don't seem to care when it's hundreds of Islamists dying defending a democratically elected government.

I see democracy as an end in itself. A system of government that requires some measure of free speech and allows for the peaceful transfer of power is, for me, a worthwhile end as well as a means.

But also I think liberals should be confident in their values. It works as an ideology because it's attractive. So embrace it and argue with opponents - whether they're the far-right like the EDL or the BNP, or Islamists (again lots of self-proclaimed liberals agree with me on the former but will support any level of illiberalism against Islamists).

In the case of Egypt it means supporting the democratic process, opposing coups and opposing unreasonable levels of violence against protesters.

None of this matters though. It isn't as though Western Liberal opinions make so much difference in Egypt, or that if only there was a bit more consistency Egyptians would do what we want.

I'm still pretty neo-con. I think we desperately need to align our values and policies in the Middle East. That's why I agree with McCain and Graham on all of this.

[Razgovory]

I think the reason for discrepancy amongst so many Western Liberals is that they are simply not keen on Muslims.  Opposing Erdogan's crackdown in Turkey and tacitly supporting the Military's crackdown in Egypt is perfectly consistent if don't want to see religious Muslims in power.

[Admiral Yi]

Well we're talking thousands or tens of thousands of Brothers (at least) that were cleared. There were 43 police killed but I don't think that suggests a significant number of the MB were armed. I think watercannon, rubber bullets and tear gas would've been sufficient to clear the square.

Next time Egypt has this problem you can volunteer to fire tear gas canisters while someone kills you.

[Sheilbh]

Next time Egypt has this problem you can volunteer to fire tear gas canisters while someone kills you.

Of course I don't think there was any need to clear a peaceful sit-in.

But that's fair and as I say I doubt any Middle Eastern police force (except possibly for Israel) would be able to do it.

[garbon]

I think the reason for discrepancy amongst so many Western Liberals is that they are simply not keen on Muslims.  Opposing Erdogan's crackdown in Turkey and tacitly supporting the Military's crackdown in Egypt is perfectly consistent if don't want to see religious Muslims in power.

You make that sound as if the liberals are bigots.

[Admiral Yi]

I doubt any police force in the world would be able to do it.  And I'm dead certain that no police force would be willing to try.

[alfred russel]

The issue of credibility is that lots of people were furious at the mildly Islamist government's crackdown on sit-ins in Turkey. They were far less violent. But don't seem to care when it's hundreds of Islamists dying defending a democratically elected government.

I see democracy as an end in itself. A system of government that requires some measure of free speech and allows for the peaceful transfer of power is, for me, a worthwhile end as well as a means.

But also I think liberals should be confident in their values. It works as an ideology because it's attractive. So embrace it and argue with opponents - whether they're the far-right like the EDL or the BNP, or Islamists (again lots of self-proclaimed liberals agree with me on the former but will support any level of illiberalism against Islamists).

In the case of Egypt it means supporting the democratic process, opposing coups and opposing unreasonable levels of violence against protesters.

Well, I put a different weight on the relative importance of western liberal values. I don't think an islamist government with all the implications to women's rights, religious minority rights, freedom of expression, education, etc, is acceptable in the 21st century. I'm simply not going to take its side, regardless of how dubious the Egyptian military may be.

The situation in Turkey is completely different. Turkey has had a longstanding secular government with the rule of law. It is a world away from the chaos and dysfunction that is Egypt.

If that means I have no credibility, then I just won't be credible. 

[Razgovory]

Turkey has a long standing secular government.  I'm not sure they had rule of law.

[Razgovory]

I think the reason for discrepancy amongst so many Western Liberals is that they are simply not keen on Muslims.  Opposing Erdogan's crackdown in Turkey and tacitly supporting the Military's crackdown in Egypt is perfectly consistent if don't want to see religious Muslims in power.

You make that sound as if the liberals are bigots.

It seems to me that suspicion of Muslims plays a big part in this.

[garbon]

I think the reason for discrepancy amongst so many Western Liberals is that they are simply not keen on Muslims.  Opposing Erdogan's crackdown in Turkey and tacitly supporting the Military's crackdown in Egypt is perfectly consistent if don't want to see religious Muslims in power.

You make that sound as if the liberals are bigots.

It seems to me that suspicion of Muslims plays a big part in this.

I don't know. I have nothing against Muslims but I do recoil at how sharia is implemented.

[DGuller]

... the ultimate end is a tolerant, secular society with a government that protects human rights, promotes a stable economic environment, and provides for the general public welfare (education, health care, social welfare, etc).

And if a dictatorship or military junta does that, you're all for it.

It's part of the means to an end.  The path from junta to democracy is a lot easier than the path from theocracy to democracy.  Easier admin tech requirements and a lot less stab hits.

[DGuller]

When did Raz become the Defender of the Faith?  I don't think he was always like this.

[Neil]

When did Raz become the Defender of the Faith?  I don't think he was always like this.

Raz doesn't have convictions.  He argues against stuff.